1 Wednesday, 17 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody.
6 I've heard that there are possibly some oral submissions by a
7 party. Is that the case?
8 Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. President, everyone,
10 Your Honours.
11 Yeah, that was the plan, and I can think -- as you know, that
12 we've been trying to fill this week with witnesses, since we had the
13 additional Monday a few weeks back, and as the Court knows, Mr. Thayer
14 sent an e-mail about our intention to try to call Mr. Blaszczyk about the
15 Mladic diaries. And we have, of course, the e-mail from the Court, with
16 your concerns on that point. And we've been speaking, as we always do,
17 with the Defence about that -- about this week and about Mr. Blaszczyk's
18 potential testimony on this topic. And Mr. Gajic and I spoke a few days
19 ago, after he had a chance to consult with his client, and he will have
20 something to say on this as well. But it was our agreement, as I
21 understand, that we would speak to you orally on this topic.
22 Mr. Gajic has explained that it is the position of the general to
23 take no position on this issue, and so we -- it looks like we are in a
24 potential gap situation. So I would offer an oral motion at this time to
25 amend Mr. Blaszczyk's summary to include testifying about how the
1 Prosecutor got the Mladic diaries, and some of the documents related to
2 that seizure, and some of the documents related to the authenticity of
3 it. It's pretty much what he testified to back in July in the Karadzic
4 case. It was short testimony. The Defence was provided with all that
5 material, I think, about a week or two after he testified in July, so
6 they've had all this material, they know what this is about, the diaries,
7 Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony.
8 So just to assure you that there is nothing new, no surprises
9 here, and so we've been discussing with Mr. Gajic whether or not we might
10 be able to take up that time by having Mr. Blaszczyk basically do what he
11 did in the Mladic case. And, of course, we're prepared to file
12 material --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you're referring to the Karadzic case.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, wishful thinking. The Karadzic case, excuse
16 And so there are some of the materials associated with that
17 testimony that don't have 65 ter numbers in our case because, as you
18 know, these diaries came in at a point and we've been all gathering
19 together this material to be able to do this properly for you, in terms
20 of writing, so it was very clear.
21 What is clear is that the Defence has the material, they are not
22 taking a position on it, and what can be done is Mr. Blaszczyk can
23 testify this week in direct, and if the general needs more time to
24 prepare for cross, like we've done before, we can fit that in when the
25 time is right for the Defence. And that way, we wouldn't -- hopefully,
1 we wouldn't lose court time and this material could be dealt with in this
3 Of course, it's just been a matter of trying to fill this gap,
4 and so it's not perfect, but there's no surprises for anyone on this.
5 And we've been working together, like we always do in these situations,
6 and we appreciate the Court's concern about that.
7 But as far as I know, we're ready to go. If we can get -- well,
8 we want to, of course, hear from the general and Mr. Gajic, if they have
9 any particular concerns, and I can answer any that we have, and perhaps
10 we'll be able to get your approval to go ahead orally, as opposed to
11 filing anything.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 Your position is understandable, but can you clarify? In fact,
14 you are moving for the addition of Mr. Blaszczyk to the 65 ter witness
15 list in respect to the diaries of Mr. Mladic, his summary, and some
16 exhibits to include into the 65 ter exhibit list; is that correct?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that's very well stated, Mr. President,
18 especially since you're certainly the expert on these Rules. But that's
19 correct, absolutely. And if -- I think that says it all.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, I think we are -- we have received
21 the new summary, and I would like to know the concrete exhibits you want
22 to use with the witness. I'm not aware of any submission in that respect
23 with a list of exhibits.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's my understanding that that's being
25 assembled, but it's the same group that he testified to. So it's a known
1 quantity, and we just need to get it typed up - I know we're working on
2 that - and see if there is any additional material that would be thrown
3 in there. But it's fundamentally what was used before, and we will get
4 that list for you very soon.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
6 You say it is well known. I'm quite sure that it is well known
7 to the OTP and well known to the Defence, but the Chamber would like to
8 know which exhibits you want to use with the witness.
9 Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gajic, what is your position?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 I would like to greet all the parties present. I would like
12 these proceedings to end as God wills it and not as I will it, and may
13 God help us all.
14 As far as what Mr. McCloskey has said, the Defence will in no way
15 interfere with the way the Prosecution intends to proceed in this matter,
16 and we're quite happy for the Trial Chamber to make its decision on this
17 matter that has been presented by the Prosecution.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the moment, there's no need for a decision.
20 We are waiting for your list of exhibits to be used with Mr. Blaszczyk in
21 the continuation of his testimony.
22 Now we should start with the next witness, if there is nothing
23 else to raise.
24 Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. He is here. He does have protective
1 measures, as we can all see, and we would request that he receive a
2 caution, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
4 We turn into closed session for a moment so that the witness can
5 enter the courtroom.
6 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 Would the witness please rise.
16 Please wait a short moment.
17 First of all, good afternoon, sir. Welcome to the courtroom.
18 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
19 shown to you now.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: PW-065
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
25 My apologies for the delay. We had to discuss some procedural
1 matters, but now it is time to examine you.
2 Before we start with that: On the request of the Prosecution, I
3 would like to give you some guidance about your testimony.
4 In our Rules of Procedure and Evidence, Rule 90(E), there is a
5 provision which should protect you if there are any problems. And I
6 would like to quote from these Rules, and I hope you understand that. I
8 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
9 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
10 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
11 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
12 offence other than false testimony."
13 Sir, did you understand that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 Mr. McCloskey, for the Prosecution, has some questions for you, I
18 Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 All right. And we're up-loading the pseudonym sheet, so we'll
21 have that in a moment and make sure we get the name correctly, but we
22 won't mention it at this point.
23 Perhaps we should go into -- well, first, I can ask you some
25 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
1 Q. Do you remember testifying in the Popovic case back in March of
2 2007 in this courtroom?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today that you were
5 asked then, would your answers be the same?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And I would, on that account,
8 Mr. President, offer the transcripts P1350 and P1351 into evidence, along
9 with the associated exhibits, 1352 through 1357, into evidence.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we do that, we should have, for the
11 record, the name - not the full name but the pseudonym - of the witness
12 on the screen so we know who is sitting here as a witness.
13 Sir, I have to tell you the protective measures granted for you
14 in the previous case are still in place. That means everybody in the
15 courtroom will only refer to you by a pseudonym instead of a name, and
16 your face will not be visible on the internet and in the courtroom, so
17 that you are fully protected.
18 Mr. McCloskey, which is the number of the pseudonym sheet?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that has just popped up on e-court now. So
20 it's 65 ter 6797.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem is it is not on the exhibit list for
22 this witness, but I'm sure we will have it on the screen very soon.
23 There it is.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. And, sir, is that your name? Do you see that there?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, thank you.
3 Now that we've got that established, I think I should now
4 formally offer the exhibits P1350 --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps first this sheet.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. This sheet, I would offer that.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
9 Exhibit P1368. Thank you.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And, of course, it's under seal, as
11 Ms. Stewart reminds me.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Under seal, that's right.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And then P1350 through 1357, the transcripts and
14 exhibits that came into evidence through this witness in his prior
16 Q. And, Witness, you also testified in the Perisic case not long
17 ago, is that correct, on similar subject matter?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I will now read a short summary of
20 your testimony to get us started.
21 And we need to start off with the first two paragraphs in private
22 session, Mr. President, if we could.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we do that, the exhibits, P1350, 1351, and
24 1352 through 1357, will be received as exhibits, some of them under seal.
25 These are P1350 and P1353 through 1357.
1 We turn now to private session.
2 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: A few days after the fall of Srebrenica - the
1 witness doesn't remember exactly how many - the witness was called to a
2 meeting at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters. The meeting took place in
3 the office of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, Vinko Pandurevic.
4 There, the witness encountered a tall, well-built, grey-haired man of
5 approximately 50 or 55 years of age. He was wearing a camouflage uniform
6 and identified himself as Colonel Beara. After introducing himself,
7 Colonel Beara delivered a brief speech, stating that they had a lot of
8 prisoners at various locations in the Zvornik municipality and that they
9 were having a very hard time controlling them. Colonel Beara explained
10 that pursuant to the order of, in quotes, "two presidents," they had to,
11 quote, "get rid of them," and that he expected the municipality to help
12 take care of that. The witness testified that he understood that
13 Colonel Beara wanted him to assist with the burial of the bodies of the
14 Muslims by providing equipment, machinery, and access to municipal
15 utility companies. Colonel Beara went on to tell the witness that the
16 witness had to obey his orders as he was the commander at the barracks.
17 The witness was surprised by Colonel Beara's speech. He did not respond
18 to it or ask Colonel Beara any questions.
19 The witness left Zvornik to go on holiday to the coast of
20 Montenegro immediately after this meeting with Colonel Beara. While his
21 vacation had been pre-planned, he hastened his departure in reaction to
22 this meeting.
23 Q. Sir, is that a correct account of your testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And today, in court, do you stand by that information that I just
1 read out?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell the Court, in your own words, as you can remember
4 them, what Beara said to you in that meeting?
5 A. He said that there were captured Muslim fighters at a number of
6 locations throughout Zvornik, from Srebrenica, which they were finding
7 difficult to control, and that they had to get rid of them. I was
8 surprised, and probably judging by my reaction, he said that this was an
9 order from two presidents and that he was the person in charge in the
10 barracks now. I didn't say anything. The meeting was finished. I left
11 Zvornik. I reported to the president of the Municipal Assembly that I
12 was leaving Zvornik for 15 days or so, I got into my car and I left.
13 That was it.
14 Q. What did Beara say about getting rid of them? What did that
16 A. Yes, he said that he expected help from the municipal
17 authorities. I understood that to mean that, since we didn't have
18 military units, that the civilian authorities could only help with the
19 burial, not with the executions. What I understood was that it would be
20 our part, our duty, to take part in these burials of the bodies.
21 Q. So you have just mentioned executions and burials. Did you learn
22 that information from Mr. -- Colonel Beara?
23 A. No, I didn't learn that then. Later, when I came back,
24 everything was already over. Nobody talked about it openly, but
25 everything was known about what happened.
1 Q. You have said that he expected you to assist in the burials of
2 the Muslims; is that correct? Do you stand by that?
3 A. That was my conclusion. This is why I left the Zvornik
4 municipality. I didn't know what to do.
5 Q. What did he say that led you to believe that these people were
6 going to need to be buried?
7 A. He explained that the situation was alarming, that it was
8 difficult to control the prisoners, that he had to get rid of them.
9 Because it was wartime for three years and the technology was already
10 familiar to us, that -- I mean, had he had to have taken them somewhere
11 else, to another area, perhaps he would have expressed himself
13 Q. When you say "technology," what kind of technology are you
14 talking about?
15 A. I meant -- I meant the choosing of words; terminology.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness said
17 "terminology" the first time.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the way he termed things. I
19 would have probably sought some transport assistance or something.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Well, you've testified numerous times that he asked you to bury
22 them. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, to assist in the burial process.
24 Q. And who were these people -- where were the people located that
25 he wanted you to assist in burying?
1 A. In a number of locations in the municipality of Zvornik, such as
2 schools, cultural halls, et cetera. This is what I learned only later,
3 because at that point in time I wasn't aware of those locations.
4 Q. What did he mean when he told you to "get rid of" the Muslims?
5 A. I don't know what he meant, but the way I understood it was that
6 they had to be rid of, as it was done later on, I presume.
7 Q. You need to explain that. I know this is difficult, but what did
8 he mean by getting "rid of"?
9 A. I understood it to mean that they had to be executed.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 I think that the witness is being asked to put forth his opinion
13 and to discuss the opinions of others. The witness was clear on what he
14 concluded, and I don't know what the purpose is of this exercise that the
15 witness should try to guess what this person meant and what he concluded
16 based on that. He didn't conclude that based on the other person's
17 opinion, he concluded what he did based on what was said.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey got an answer from the witness.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I think it's clear.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
23 Q. Did Colonel Beara ever suggest that these people would be buried
24 alive before execution?
25 A. I don't understand. How can people be buried alive, and by using
1 what method?
2 Q. You mentioned that he wanted them getting rid of and he wanted
3 them buried, and you said you believed that meant they should be
4 executed. I just wanted to make sure what he was telling you was that
5 they would be executed before they would be buried or would they be
6 killed by being buried alive?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to hear the answer.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't use the words that they
9 had to be killed, not literally. He basically said that they had to get
10 rid of them.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, the
13 Prosecutor, before the commencement of the proceedings today, asked of
14 you to caution the witness, and now he wants the witness to say something
15 that may incriminate him. I would kindly ask that the question be
16 rephrased, because what somebody thought cannot be used as evidence
17 either against me, or the witness, or any other participants in the
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the beginning of the testimony of the witness,
21 the witness was explained the meaning of Rule 90(E). I think this is
22 absolutely sufficient, and Mr. -- and at the end of the trial, the
23 Chamber will give weight to the answers, if this is evidence or not. It
24 is up to the Chamber to decide on that at the end.
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Sir, you remember testifying at the Popovic trial that you'd seen
3 on television, I believe you said, someone that was coming to The Hague
4 identified as a Mr. Beara, and you didn't think that was the same person
5 that you had seen in that office that day; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But the description as you've testified in Popovic and as I've
8 reiterated in the summary is the correct description; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you see the rank insignia on the person that identified
11 himself as Colonel Beara in that office?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what rank was it, to your knowledge?
14 A. Colonel.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we now go to P00014, known to us as the
16 Zvornik Brigade duty officer's note-book. And if we could go to English
17 page 4, B/C/S page 131. And if need be, Witness, or Your Honours, I have
18 the original of that note-book.
19 Q. Now, do you remember being interviewed by the OTP, by a man named
20 Julian Nicholls?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That was back on 7th of April, 2006, and do you remember him
23 showing you this entry in the duty officer note-book where -- and this
24 should not be broadcast. We best go into private session.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 7782 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But this document should not be broadcast.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
5 Q. So did -- you asked them to turn off the tape-recorder, and they
6 did; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And then you told them your experience with Colonel Beara in the
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. And then did they turn the tape-recorder back on, to your
12 knowledge, and ask you the same questions?
13 A. I don't think they asked the same questions. I think I provided
14 the second part of my statement two days after that in the premises in
16 Q. Yes. At that time, did you finish up your statement on the --
17 with the tape-recorder going and tell them the story on the record, on
18 the tape-recorder?
19 A. I think also for a period of time the tape-recorder was off.
20 Q. But did you tell them about what Beara had told you at some point
21 with the tape-recorder on?
22 A. I didn't -- I wasn't able to focus, and I wasn't able to perceive
23 whether the tape-recorder was on or off. It seemed like the end of the
24 world to me.
25 Q. Why?
1 A. I thought that that period had gone and that 11 years later I
2 wouldn't be asked about it, because everyone I knew had already been
3 invited or called to provide statements or testified. I believed that I
4 could escape that fate and that there were those who had much more
5 knowledge about it. I still think that. I still think it could all have
6 been done without me. It changed my life a lot.
7 Q. You just mentioned that there was more than just you and
8 Colonel Beara at the office at the Zvornik Brigade. How many other
9 people were in that room?
10 A. That's the problem. I don't seem to be able to recall that at
11 all. I remember Beara, but I don't know who was there as well to my
12 side. I tried to recall, but I can't, and I wouldn't like to put some
13 people into the situation I am now in without them actually having been
15 Q. Can you tell us, just roughly, how many people were in that room
16 besides you and Colonel Beara?
17 A. It was a small room, so four soldiers, I believe, and I don't
18 know who was there on the side where I was.
19 Q. Okay. Have you ever, during this wartime period, seen
20 General Tolimir in the area of Zvornik?
21 A. Only once, when there was a session of the Executive Council. I
22 was there, as well as some of my associates and the commander of the
23 Zvornik Brigade. Suddenly, General Mladic and General Gvero, as well as
24 General Tolimir, came in. They greeted everyone but stayed there briefly
25 only. They were probably looking for Mr. Pandurevic. That was the only
1 time I saw Mr. Tolimir in person, whereas I saw him on numerous occasions
2 on TV. I never spoke to him, however.
3 Q. Can you just briefly describe what happened when, at this session
4 of the Executive Council, Mladic, Tolimir and Gvero showed up? What did
5 they do?
6 A. They came in, we got up to our feet, General Mladic asked
7 Mr. Pandurevic what he was doing there, telling him that he was supposed
8 to be with the army. It was partly in jest, but he may well have been
9 serious. Mr. Pandurevic stood stock still and explained to him that he
10 wanted the civilian authorities to know about what they could help the
11 army with. It may have lasted for about five minutes, and then they
13 Q. Who left?
14 A. Mr. Mladic -- General Mladic, General Gvero, General Tolimir, and
15 Mr. Pandurevic. I think at the time he was a colonel.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Just one last question, if we could go
17 into private session.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
19 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session. We are in open
19 session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. One question I forgot to ask you is: This time where
23 Generals Mladic, Tolimir and Gvero came to your meeting in Zvornik, just
24 roughly, when was that in relation to, you know, when Srebrenica fell in
25 July of 1995?
1 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was a month or more before all of
2 that, before Srebrenica.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you, sir. I have no further
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, I have a question for you. I would like to
6 get some clarification.
7 On page 12, line 3 and 4, you said -- you were asked:
8 "You have said that he expected you to assist in the burials of
9 the Muslims; is that correct? Do you stand by that?"
10 Your answer was:
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was planning that holiday
18 before, and my wife and friends were already on the Montenegrin coast.
19 So it was just a matter of days when I would also leave, but this
20 actually speeded things up. So I went that day, and I wish I had gone a
21 day before, actually.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 Mr. McCloskey, you have used the document P14, which is still on
24 the screen before us. What about the last document on your list, P1358,
25 MFI? It has the same title, "Zvornik Brigade Duty Officer Log-Book." Is
1 that the same document?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I had thought it was, but let me -- let me
4 Mr. President, it was my understanding that this is the duty
5 officer note-book. There's only one. It's a very important exhibit for
6 this case. It's my understanding it's already into evidence. It came in
7 through a 92 quater witness, and it should be P0014, but I believe it's
8 already in evidence.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is my understanding, too. That means we
10 don't need it again as an exhibit with the number P1358 MFI, so that we
11 can leave this number open.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My understanding, this document can be crossed
15 out on the list of the Registry from the 12th of November, 2010. It
16 means we have it not with the number P1358.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's my understanding. Some of these sneak
18 their way in in other ways that we're not always able to see very well.
19 So I think that should clear it up.
20 We might need to redact something. Yes, there's a -- it looks
21 like page 22, lines 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. Line 16 is the troublesome one.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Because his position is mentioned there, we will
23 redact that part of my question. Thank you.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
25 I have nothing further, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, before you start your
2 cross-examination, we would like to know your time estimation for
3 cross-examination of this witness. We haven't received that yet.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 I think that I will need one hour, one hour and a half at the
6 most. It depends on the answers of the witness. Then we'll have a
7 break, I guess, and then the Prosecutor will have his redirect. I don't
8 know what he will ask.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last thing
10 that Mr. Tolimir said.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 Please go ahead with your cross-examination.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I would like to greet the witness, and I'm going to put a number
17 of questions to which you can answer or you cannot, perhaps not an
18 answer, depending on your position in relation to the warning or the
19 caution that the Judge mentioned at the beginning.
20 Let's look at page 20 of today's transcript. When Mr. McCloskey
21 asked you whether you had seen General Tolimir, and then you said how
22 three generals suddenly entered your meeting. And then on page 24 of the
23 transcript, you said, "When Mladic, Gvero and Tolimir came to Zvornik."
24 The Prosecutor asked you when they came, and you said, I'm not
25 sure. I think it was a month or more before Srebrenica.
1 Based on all that I've said, my question is: Because you've said
2 this into the transcript, it turns out that perhaps you didn't know. Can
3 you please tell me, did this happen before the Srebrenica events? Thank
5 A. I cannot really tell you with any certainty.
6 Q. Was it before or after the Srebrenica events?
7 A. I cannot really say definitely. I said I wasn't sure.
8 Q. You said -- you said this, I quote:
9 "I'm not sure. I think that this was one month before
11 That is what you said. All I'm saying is that you said that you
12 are not sure. Are you sure that this was before the Srebrenica event?
13 You're not sure -- you're not sure about the time. Was it before the
14 events or after the events? Thank you.
15 A. Well, let's say that I am not sure.
16 Q. Can you please tell us whether this was, then, after the
17 Srebrenica events? Are you able to recall that?
18 A. No, I cannot remember that.
19 Q. Was it during the Srebrenica events?
20 A. No, it was not during the Srebrenica events.
21 Q. Was it before or after the Srebrenica events?
22 A. I told you I was trying to check back. After the Srebrenica
23 events was the Storm operation, the fall of the Krajina. We had meetings
24 of the War Presidency then. I said that possibly, then, it could have
25 happened before. This is the reason why I said that this happened
1 probably before, because such meetings were not held after -- until after
2 Srebrenica and until after a state of war was declared in
3 Republika Srpska. But let's leave it at my saying that I'm not sure.
4 Q. The answers that you gave to the Prosecutor, you say -- you
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go into private session briefly?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
21 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Continue, please.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 What I meant to say at the closed session is this: that we need
16 to redact the answer of the witness where he says what post he was
17 carrying out at that particular time. This is all I meant to say. Thank
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be done. Please carry on.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Witness, sir, the Prosecutor asked you, on page 14, whether the
22 gentleman who received you at the office during that meeting at the
23 brigade seat expected you to help him with the burials. He asked him [as
24 interpreted] if he expected that, and you said, No, that was my
25 conclusion. My question is: Do you stand by what you said, that this
1 was your conclusion and that the word that the Prosecutor used was
2 actually not used? Thank you.
3 A. You must admit that it's been a long time since then for a person
4 to remember the details that are significant, yes, but I said that that
5 is how I understood it. And judging by the turn of events later, there
6 is some overlap there.
7 Q. Thank you. This is what I wanted to ask you. This is my
8 conclusion on the basis of events that were discussed over and over again
9 later. Thank you.
10 A. Should I answer something?
11 Q. Thank you. Well, I don't want to repeat it. I'm going to repeat
12 it briefly.
13 When you testified just now, did you state here, No, that is my
14 conclusion? When the Prosecutor asked you if he expected you to help,
15 did you say, as I wrote down, No, that is my conclusion? Just say yes or
16 no. Thank you. Not four years ago, but did you say it now?
17 A. I would need to read it back. I mean, this is an English text in
18 front of me.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to the general issuing an order to the
21 witness to answer yes or no. That is inappropriate. And the general has
22 an effect on people, and orders should not be followed like that.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see it as an order issued to the witness.
24 He's asking for a short answer, like he did in the last months already
25 several times. It's another question if it's always appropriate to force
1 a witness to give short answers, especially for this witness who is
2 providing the questioning party with quite short answers.
3 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
4 Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps my conclusion was unfair. What I'm
6 objecting to is his raised voice and when he said, "Just say yes or no."
7 I think that's inappropriate. I think that's an unfair way to influence
8 a witness.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps this is a question of the voice.
10 Mr. Gajic.
11 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as the tone is
12 concerned, Mr. Tolimir has a very powerful voice, but in no event is he
13 using an imperative tone towards the witness or wishes to cause any kind
14 of difficulty or to be unpleasant. Throughout the whole time he's doing
15 his best to behave in a mild and an exemplary manner towards each and
16 every witness.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is, in most cases, also the understanding of
18 the Chamber. On the other hand, we can observe sometimes that
19 Mr. Tolimir is raising his voice a lot, and this can influence and put
20 some pressure on a witness. Everybody should be aware of that.
21 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for this
23 warning. I understand the witness is unable to answer precisely because
24 he does not have the transcript in the Serbian language before him. So I
25 would just like us to look at page 11, lines 14 onwards, to see what the
1 witness said. And I do take his request into account regarding the
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. My next question would be: Mr. McCloskey, on line 15 -- on page
5 15, line 3, actually, asked whether in the Popovic case you had seen on
6 television that somebody had been brought to The Hague, and that it was
7 said on television that the identity of this person was Mr. Beara, and
8 that you said that this was not the same person that you had seen in the
9 office during the Srebrenica events. Do you recall that question?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So on the basis of that, my question would be: Do you still
12 stand by what you said, that you don't remember the face of the person
13 you saw on television that was arrested as being the same person who was
14 in the office? Do you stand by the statement that you gave in the
15 Popovic case? That would be sufficient of an answer.
16 A. Yes, I do stand by what I said in the Popovic case.
17 Q. Thank you. On page 10, line 19, you said that Beara said that he
18 was the barracks commander; is that correct? Did I understand you
19 correctly? Did I quote you correctly? Thank you.
20 A. He said something to that effect, that he was in charge, that at
21 that moment he was in charge there, that his word was to be listened to.
22 Q. In the barracks?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there's a problem with the
1 Do you receive everything in your language you understand?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At one point, I didn't hear
3 Mr. Tolimir in my headphones, but like this. It's all right now.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay.
5 Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In your statement, from page 8 to 10, the investigators put
8 questions to you.
9 Can we look at P1356. Can we see that on the screen, it will be
10 easier to follow. And I don't want to mention the name of the person,
11 but you told the person that is in line 5 -- I don't want to identify
12 that person because that might identify you, but you will see that
13 person's face on the monitor now. Thank you.
14 If possible, can we look at P1356, please, page 10. I don't want
15 to say the name, so that the witness would not be identified on the basis
16 of those names. So let the witness read. This is page 12 in the
17 English. Aleksandar, thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document is under seal and should not be
19 broadcast. And if there are portions to discuss about, we should
20 consider the possibility of going into private session.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 I can use the name without the document, but then they are going
23 to discover the identity of the witness by the name. I don't want to do
24 this. I can use the name without going into private session, but then I
25 will disclose, with the help of that name, the identity of the witness.
1 Perhaps the witness can look at the statement and it doesn't have to be
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will not be broadcast, and we wait for the
4 moment that it is coming up on the screen. And everybody knows then what
5 is in that document.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 I wanted to look at page 10 in the Serbian. Page 10 in the
8 Serbian and page 12 in the English. Thank you.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, line 5, there is a first and last name there. In line 8, we
11 have his position.
12 The same is in the English version, for the Chamber.
13 My question is this: Since you know who this person is and you
14 know what his position was, I wanted to ask you whether it would have
15 been logical, in terms of your position, to contact this person under the
16 prevailing circumstances at the time. Yes or no, thank you.
17 A. Yes. And I had frequent contact with him, as a matter of fact,
18 more than with others.
19 Q. Thank you. Was it the duty of the municipal organs to provide
20 for the municipal unit that was in its territory, as was requested of you
21 by the person who was in attendance at that meeting when myself and
22 General Mladic arrived?
23 A. I don't remember anything of the sort being prescribed by the
24 law, but I believe we saw it as our main task, to assist the soldiers of
25 the brigade.
1 Q. Well, let me rephrase the question. Providing food, clothing,
2 and everything that was necessary for the soldiers in that area, was it
3 something that was supposed to come from you or someone else?
4 A. Well, they had to receive that from the army, but the army did
5 not have such resources, and we took it upon ourselves to provide that.
6 Q. Under such circumstances, did you not have to pay such funds into
7 the army accounts instead of providing supplies?
8 A. Well, yes, that would be the ideal situation. But during the
9 war, there was no revenue and no taxes collected.
10 Q. This obligation that was upon the municipal authorities, was it
11 something that you had to do, given the fact that you were not assisting
12 the military budget in financial terms?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone. You need your microphone.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Page 17 of the statement in the Serbian, please. Thank you. In
18 the English, Aleksandar, it is number 20. Thank you.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Without mentioning any place names, so as to protect your
21 identity, please read line 27 and 28, following which I will have a
22 question for you. Indicate to me, please, when you are done.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which line is it in English?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 20, it should be the same
25 line. In the Serbian, it is line 27 and line 28, and my assistant will
1 tell you exactly what lines those are in the English version.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the English, it is page 21,
4 line 3, and we are using the statement as a means to protect the
5 witness's identity.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have it on the screen.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. In line 3, you used the word "krece," "coming." Based on what
9 you said, was that group moving in marching order or in combat formation?
10 A. They moved in combat formation.
11 Q. Thank you. Is this why you expressed your concern for your
12 family and the inhabitants, because of the sheer amount of people who had
13 arms moving about?
14 A. At that time, the people in the town were really afraid because
15 all of the able-bodied men were at the front-lines. The town, itself,
16 was not protected. I think in the statement, itself, I mentioned that we
17 asked the army to send Mr. Pandurevic and his unit back to Zvornik to
18 protect us.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for interrupting you, but it is time for
21 our first break. We will have the first break now and resume quarter
22 past 4.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please continue.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 I wanted to say that in the last answer of the witness a name was
3 mentioned which may be used to identify the witness. Perhaps we should
4 redact that. It should be left in the transcript, but that part should
5 not be made public. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your position, Mr. McCloskey?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: If they're referring to the -- I see no problem
8 with that. That's a historical event. It's the commander of the Zvornik
9 Brigade. It's very well known. It doesn't tend to identify him in any
10 way, I don't think.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's also my position that there is no reason to
12 redact that part.
13 Please --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
15 believe your judgement will be better than mine.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for your concern.
17 Please continue.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 18,
19 line 33, in the Serbian, and page 22, lines 18 to 21, in the English
20 version. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are still using the document P1356, which
22 should not be broadcast; is that correct?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am using it
24 so that I don't have to read out loud anything that may identify the
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Have a look at the last sentence. I'm interested in the end of
3 that sentence, where you say that the army was above civilian
4 authorities. My question is this: Was the VRS a municipal or a
5 republican entity?
6 A. The military was a republican entity.
7 Q. Did anyone from the army -- or was anyone from the army under an
8 obligation to report on the activities of the military to the
9 municipality or not?
10 A. They were under no such obligation. However, occasionally there
11 were situational reports at municipal meetings; not necessarily at the
12 level of the republic but in the municipality, itself.
13 Q. Thank you. When you said in the statement that the army was
14 above civilian authorities, did you have in mind only the civilian
15 authorities in your municipality or in the entire republic?
16 A. I don't recall the exact background, the context, but we know
17 that in democratic societies, the military is always below or under the
18 control of civilian authorities. And at that time, we lived in a
19 democratic society.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Could we go to page 19 in the Serbian, line 14 as well as line
22 15, and in the English, page 23, line 4. Thank you.
23 We can read this out loud. I will do so, skipping a single word
24 which may identify you:
25 "After the fall or liberation of Srebrenica, did you hear about
1 the Muslim population being taken in the direction of" your area? I will
2 not refer to the name mentioned.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. My question is this: Can you tell us whether the Muslim
5 population referred to by the investigator were being taken to the area
6 or were they, themselves, trying to break through, passing through your
7 territory and near a town that was not protected, given the fact that all
8 of the able-bodied men were at the front-lines?
9 A. Those of them who moved in combat formation were not being taken
10 anywhere by anyone. They were going by themselves to Tuzla and that
11 area. They were not being taken anywhere. They moved in combat
13 Q. Thank you. Was the fear of the population justified in such
14 circumstances? Because, as you say, there were only a dozen people who
15 had not been mobilised. Were such fears of the population realistic if
16 there was a large number of people crossing their territory who were
17 armed and were basically the enemy at the time?
18 A. Yes, people were very afraid because it was a narrow strip
19 alongside the Drina River from Srebrenica to Tuzla. At any point in time
20 there existed a possibility that they should turn on Zvornik.
21 Q. Thank you. Did I interrupt you?
22 A. Yes. There was much fear among the population.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Could we next have page 20 in e-court, lines 20 and onwards. In
25 the English version, it is page 24, lines 28 to 30. Thank you.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. On this page and the next, which is page 21, when the
3 investigators took your statement, asked you about the participation of
4 your father-in-law in the transport of Muslim prisoners, do you recall
6 A. I do.
7 Q. When you provided answers, you said that you were worried because
8 he did not come back from the task he had assigned to him by his company.
9 You also said that for a while he was in a state of shock, because he was
10 on a bus full of Muslim prisoners who were guarded by soldiers of the
11 VRS, because at some point in time they managed to seize those weapons
12 from the soldiers and train them on those guarding them. Do you remember
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Later on in the statement, you say that at some point fire was
16 opened on the bus where your father-in-law was, which contributed further
17 to his nervous breakdown.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we get precise references? Because I'm
20 reading very different -- a very different substance of what the general
21 is repeating, and I'm not sure where he's talking, but in the pages that
22 he's talking about, there's two different incidents of shooting going on.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have that part on the screen at the
24 moment. Are you referring to a portion on page 25 of the document in
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Yes, I'm referring to page 24 in the English, lines 28 to 30,
3 where the witness describes how his father-in-law drove a bus full of
4 Muslims, which is in line 29, Mr. McCloskey. Page 24, line 29, and as
5 well as lines 32 and 33.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, your last question -- it was not a
7 question yet. In the beginning of your last question, you said, I quote:
8 "You said that at some point fire was opened on the bus where
9 your father-in-law was, which contributed further to his nervous
11 I can't see anything like that in this part of the OTP statement
12 we have on the screen now.
13 Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's on page 25. And the witness gave a
15 very specific reason for that, and it doesn't have anything to do with
16 what the general is saying.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We would like to have that on the screen now, the
18 next page.
19 Mr. Tolimir, are you -- can you tell us from which part of this
20 page you are quoting?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 I am quoting from page 20, lines 25 to 33. I am now going to
23 quote this.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In B/C/S?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 24 in the English, lines
1 28 to 30. Actually, 28 to -- 26. Thank you, Aleksandar. I'm only going
2 to quote sentence 32 and 33, which is going to answer, then, the question
3 that the Prosecution has and the Trial Chamber.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. It says, 33:
6 "You mean Muslim men or women and children?
7 "A. I am thinking of men and only two -- only two policemen or
8 soldiers, some, and they seized the weapons from soldiers and policemen."
9 This is page 25 in the English, the first few lines, where the
10 witness is talking about how his father-in-law was driving a full bus
11 that was guarded only by two soldiers, and their arms were seized. That
12 is what it says in line 33. They grabbed the weapons from soldiers or
13 police officers.
14 And then later on page 25, as Mr. McCloskey said, he's explaining
15 something, and he says on page 21, line 13 - that is, the following page
16 of the English - where it says, in line 13, Serbian version 21/13:
17 "And he died a year and a half ago from a stroke."
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is, in fact, in the English version,
19 page 25, lines 16 to 19 or 20.
20 And now your question, please.
21 Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's leaving out lines 14 through 18 -- 14
23 through 17, which, in my reading of this, are the most significant parts
24 of the psychological damage to his father-in-law, from this interview.
25 So he can't ask that question unless he fairly puts it to the witness.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I can
3 read those lines:
4 "I know why he told me lots of times, and this left a mark on
5 him. I think that he had consequences from the stroke."
6 And so on and so forth.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. On the basis of this, my question was: Were there any shots
9 fired, in the bus that was driven by your father-in-law, by the people
10 who had grabbed the guns from the two escorts that were in the bus?
11 Thank you.
12 A. There were combat-able or able-bodied men, Muslims, in the bus,
13 and they were guarded by two soldiers or policemen. The Muslims grabbed
14 the weapons from those two escorts and fired inside the bus. A panic
15 broke out, and then the other soldiers or policemen that were outside
16 fired at the bus, and my father-in-law was not able to get out because he
17 didn't have a door. There was no door next to the driver. So this
18 brought on this shock, and that's why he had to retire. But, basically,
19 there was fire from both sides.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for clarifying this
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we please scroll down the English version to
23 enable us to see lines 21, 22, 23, to the bottom, please. To the bottom,
24 please, that's all. Thank you.
25 Mr. Tolimir, we are slightly confused by the lines.
1 Now we have the French translation -- now we have the French
2 translation on the English channel. I don't know what happened.
3 You were talking about lines 31 to 33. Where are these lines?
4 We are lost at the moment.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see any line 33.
7 Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: The page I was referring to was on page 25. I
9 thought he was referring to 25. This is where the story of the Muslims
10 getting the guns and shooting people is. And we don't have page 25 up on
11 the screen in English. I don't know what page we have, because lines 14
12 through 17, like I said, on page 25 have another story that appears
13 different from or related to what General Tolimir is saying. But I
14 don't -- I think he's talking about page 25, and that's not what's on the
15 screen right now in English.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't know what page it is on the screen at the
17 moment. I think 25.
18 JUDGE MINDUA: I think it's 25, should be 25.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the end of 25 is line 32. There is no line
21 Could you clarify, for the Chamber and the Prosecution, what you
22 are quoting.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 I would like the Trial Chamber and the Prosecutor to look at
25 page 20 in the Serbian version, lines 24 to 33, in the Serbian. In the
1 English, that is page 24, lines 28 to 26 [as interpreted]. And on the
2 basis of that, I put the question to the witness, and the witness
3 answered, and he can repeat the answer, and from the answer, it will be
4 clear who fired at his father-in-law.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please repeat the number of the lines again. It
7 was interpreted "lines 28 to 26," and that can't be correct.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that that is what
9 General Tolimir said.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 In the English, can you look at lines 24 to 30. Thank you.
12 Page 24. Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is on the screen now. Thank you.
14 And now put the question to the witness, please.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I put the question to which
16 the witness has already given his answer before we got into this
17 confusing situation.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Who fired at the bus in which the Muslims were being transported,
20 and how many armed people were guarding the bus, and how did it happen
21 that the arms -- weapons changed arms? Could you please answer the
22 Trial Chamber? That was my question. I mean, you answered it a little
23 bit earlier, but I need to repeat it because of the transcript. Thank
25 A. The bus was being guarded by two soldiers or policemen of the
1 Army of Republika Srpska, with weapons. At one point, the captured
2 Muslims grabbed the weapons from those two soldiers and started shooting
3 inside the bus, at the soldiers inside the bus. A panic broke out, and
4 then the soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska who were outside
5 started to shoot at the bus, the part of the bus where these soldiers
6 with the weapons were. My father-in-law was sitting in the driver's
7 seat. He was not able to leave the bus because there was no door next to
8 the driver, and that is when his medical problems began.
9 Q. Thank you for your answer. All I wanted to do was to clarify who
10 was firing, because this was not correct in the statement, and now you
11 have explained that. Thank you for your answer. The point of my
12 question was to clarify what was unclear in the statement, because it was
13 just said "soldiers," but there was no clarification as to whose soldiers
14 they were. Thank you.
15 Can we now look at page 24 in the e-court. This is page 24 in
16 the Serbian language. This is line 24 onwards. And that is page 29 in
17 the English.
18 Can we see the page we asked for, page 24, lines that we asked
19 for from 24, so that the witness can see this page.
20 I'm going to read or quote from line 24. These are lines 14 and
21 15 in the English, where it says:
22 "At the same time, the army in the field, there were 3.000
23 prisoners," meaning that he had to kill 3.000 prisoners, bury them. That
24 was a huge logistical problem.
25 And then line 27 -- this is all spoken by the investigator:
1 "Can you tell me how the municipality helped in the clearing and
2 burial of all those bodies?"
3 Based on that, my question is: While you were being interviewed
4 by the investigator, is that the first time that you learned of this
5 figure of 3.000 soldiers and about this information that allegedly the
6 commander of your brigade from your municipality sent to his superior,
7 the corps commander? Thank you.
8 A. Could you please repeat your question, because I was just
9 focusing on the reading.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Nicholls, the investigator, quoted to you a part
11 of the statement that the commander of your brigade from your town sent
12 to his superior commander at the corps, and he said there what I quoted.
13 He mentioned 3.000 soldiers, and he said -- he said that they had a
14 problem, that they needed to kill the citizens and then bury them. I
15 quoted that, and what I asked was: Was it -- the first time that you
16 heard about this figure, was that from the investigator, and was that the
17 basis for his continued questioning you as if you had said that?
18 A. No. The investigator read to me the dispatch that the brigade
19 commander sent to his superior with this content, and I think I answered
20 that I was not familiar with exactly what happened in that situation.
21 And it's evident that these are the words of the investigator.
22 Q. Thank you. I just wanted you, for the transcript, to tell us
23 whether it was that first time that you heard this number from the
24 investigator and these terms that he used that relate to that number of
1 A. Yes, yes, thank you. That was the first time that I heard about
3 Q. Thank you, thank you. My next question is: Did you have the
4 sense during the interview that the investigator, Nicholls, tried to get
5 you to say things that he already had in the documents that were sent by
6 your commander or from other reports or other interviews with other
7 persons? Was he trying to get you to say these things that were already
8 contained in other documents?
9 A. I already answered that I was in a terrible mental state at that
10 point in time when I was led to answer these questions, which I was not
11 prepared to answer when I arrived for the interview, because I was
12 convinced that I could avoid answering the questions on this particular
13 topic. I don't know if the Prosecutor or the inspector led me to answer.
14 I really, at that point, couldn't tell. I couldn't sense anything like
15 that. I wasn't in a stable state in order to be able to answer.
16 Q. Thank you. Since you, as you said, immediately after the meeting
17 that you talked about, went to the coast, at that time were you aware at
18 all of what was happening in the municipality? Thank you.
19 A. I didn't know anything until I came back.
20 Q. Thank you. And this statement of yours, was it drafted on the
21 basis of information that you could have acquired later, after you came
22 back from the coast? Thank you.
23 A. Well, it's a fact that I learned about it all later, not at the
24 time that it was going on, not immediately, but later, even years later,
25 because this was a topic that was frequently discussed also in the media.
1 Q. Was this information that you found out second-hand, through
2 stories, or did you find out about it directly by virtue of your function
3 and the job that you were doing?
4 A. This topic was not discussed at any meeting. More information
5 was gained from conversations and from the media.
6 Q. When you came back from your holiday, did you have any superiors
7 in your structure, municipal structure, who were more responsible than
8 you for the whole situation that happened during the events, themselves,
9 and after the events, in view of the fact that a state of war was
10 declared? Thank you.
11 A. Later, when the state of war was declared, the president of the
12 War Presidency was there, but at no point in time -- we never put the
13 events on the agenda, what happened.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us, for the transcript, whether
15 you, during the time that you were on holiday -- and if you can perhaps
16 tell us how long you were on holiday, if you can give us the date, during
17 the time you were on holiday, did you receive any information about the
18 activities in the municipality that were happening in relation to the
19 circumstances that you were interviewed about by the investigator? Thank
21 A. No, I did not have any contact with anyone, and I didn't know
22 what was going on. There were no mobile phones around at that time.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, for the record, when you returned
24 from the seaside? Can you recall the date in July or was it perhaps
25 already in August?
1 A. In late July. I can't recall the exact date, though.
2 Q. Thank you. Have all the events been resolved in the area of your
3 municipality concerning the column that was trying to break through that
4 territory, the Muslim column?
5 A. Yes. I think that column, in combat formation, went on to Tuzla.
6 There were many, many casualties on both sides.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Thank you for testifying, and thank you for providing answers to
9 the best of your recollection. Please forgive me if at any time I have
10 raised my voice. It was not my intention, but this is my nature and the
11 way I speak.
12 I would like to thank the Chamber and all those who assisted us
13 during this examination. I would like to thank the Presiding Judge for
14 his understanding.
15 Mr. President, as far as my cross-examination goes, I am through
16 with the questions for this witness.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, General. I was not
18 under the impression that you were ordering me about.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
20 Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a small amount.
22 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
23 Q. You said there were lots of casualties on both sides when that
24 Muslim column went through the area. Are you aware of any Muslims in
25 that column that were picked up and buried by the Serb municipal
1 authorities or any Serb organisation?
2 A. No. The rumour that existed at the time was that the Muslims
3 took all of their casualties with them.
4 Q. And was the fighting done -- as far as you know, were there
5 minefields all around where a lot of that fighting went on, near Zvornik?
6 A. Yes. I think even today there are still minefields in the
7 territory of Zvornik municipality.
8 Q. And did you hear at the time or at any time that anyone from
9 Zvornik went into those -- across those front-lines into the minefields
10 to retrieve Muslim dead?
11 A. No, I had no such information.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go to the section in your
13 interview. I have it as page 21 in the B/C/S. It should be P1356, and
14 page 25 in the English, and it's -- we can see this -- the part -- if you
15 could take a look at, I think, lines 10, 11, 12, 13 in the B/C/S, but in
16 the English I see it on line 16.
17 Q. Now, before that, you tell the story that your father-in-law is
18 driving a bus when the Muslims took some weapons and shot some Serbs, but
19 then you go on, on line 16, and you say:
20 "Then, he was in civilian clothes. That's when they took out all
21 of the people to kill them, and he was with them, he was amongst them.
22 They didn't know that he was different. Somebody recognised him and
23 managed to save him. He died one year and a half ago from a brain
25 What is that that he's telling you? What is he -- what is he
1 telling you about, that they took all of the people to kill them?
2 A. He told me that once the incident was over, that everyone was
3 taken off the bus and that they were ready to kill them all, and that he
4 was among them since he was in civilian clothes. Apparently, someone
5 recognised him and pulled him out. But he didn't tell me that all those
6 people were, indeed, killed or anything of the sort, so I have no
7 information whether they were later on killed, because I didn't put many
8 questions to him. He would always tell me that story.
9 Q. So did he tell you that they -- the Serbs, the Serb forces, like
10 you say here, took -- and I quote, "took out all the people to kill
12 A. Yes, they emptied the bus, with him being with the others. I
13 don't know whether they killed them, though.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have nothing further, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 Sir, you will be happy to hear that this concludes your
17 examination. You are now free to return to your normal life and normal
19 The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here and
20 for the answers you were able to provide. Thank you again.
21 And we turn into closed session for a moment to enable the
22 witness to leave the courtroom.
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session, Your Honours, once the
24 blinds are shut.
25 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Now we are back in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good afternoon to you, Mr. President. Good
8 afternoon, Your Honours, and everyone.
9 You may be aware that we had a witness that was on last Thursday,
10 I think, and we're prepared to proceed with the redirect examination. It
11 should be fairly -- it should be fairly brief.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, can you help us?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I can.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You were referring to the witness
15 Tomasz Blaszczyk?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I'm actually referring to the witness
17 Erin Gallagher, and I was informed she was actually testifying earlier
18 this week. I'm mistaken, but Monday it was, okay, so --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was because of --
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: If that's the reason for the confusion, I
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- the holiday on Tuesday.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Indeed, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
25 If there is nothing to raise, the witness should be brought in.
1 In the meantime, I would like to ask the Prosecution if we have
2 received a list of exhibits to be used with Mr. Blaszczyk and to be added
3 to the 65 ter exhibit list.
4 Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I was with Mr. Thayer as he and Ms. Stewart
6 were getting that list together, and, yes, it's basically the list --
7 I think it was the list used in the other case. As I mentioned, many of
8 the documents did not have a 65 ter number, as yet, because we hadn't
9 gotten that far, but that's why you may see no 65 ter numbers.
10 Ms. Stewart is going to be working on that. I think some might, and she
11 can, of course, assign others so it can be up-loaded in e-court properly.
12 But that's something we had spoken to Mr. Gajic about, so he's aware of
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem for the Chamber is we would like to
16 know about the content of the testimony and the list of exhibits to be
17 used with the witness before we grant leave to add him for this purpose
18 to the 65 ter witness list and all the documents, so that we can proceed
19 in the normal way like with all other witnesses.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand that. And Mr. Thayer was getting
21 that list together, he was at the photocopy machine, and we can provide
22 those to you any way you like. But they should be -- I'm not sure how
23 they are electronically, but they are going to be, I think, downloaded
24 into e-court as the next step, and so that's now proceeding, I believe,
25 in the absence of Ms. Stewart. Her staff is doing that, and so that
1 should be going on while we're doing this. Mr. Thayer is well aware of
2 that, and he was racing around in that because he knows exactly what you
3 said on that point.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The only reason I ask is that we would like to be
5 prepared before the witness is called tomorrow.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I understand that, Your Honour, and, of
7 course, I know the Bench's feelings on that, and I know the Bench's
8 feelings from Judge Schomburg before you on that, and so I've learned
9 that that is something that is expected in this Chamber. And we are
10 getting those things as soon as we can. I'm sorry it's come this late.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are referring to a former Judge of this
12 Tribunal. I understand what you are talking about, but I'm talking about
13 this Bench.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I apologise. What I mean is --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understood you, Mr. McCloskey. No worries.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand the culture where the Judges get
17 everything. It's so counter to other cultures, but I have understood
18 that culture and have lived with it and worked with it for many years, so
19 I understand absolutely. I know it sometimes it doesn't appear that I
20 do, but I do.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No worries about that.
22 Sorry, Ms. Gallagher, for this discussion in your presence.
23 Welcome back to the courtroom, and I have to remind you that the
24 affirmation to tell the truth you made at the beginning of your testimony
25 still applies.
1 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And Mr. Vanderpuye has some more questions for
4 Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 We'll need 65 ter 2183 in e-court, please.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
8 Q. Good afternoon to you, Ms. Gallagher.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. You'll be pleased to know that I only have a few questions, or, I
11 should say, a few issues to redirect you on.
12 On page 7758 of your testimony on 15 November, you were asked a
13 number of questions by General Tolimir, one of which was -- concerned, I
14 should say, the DNA samples, whether or not it would be more appropriate
15 to receive DNA samples from closer relatives rather than more distant
16 relatives, and you may recall that line of questioning.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before the witness answers: This is
18 confidential, as I was told, and it should not be broadcast. Is that
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: There are parts of it that I think should not be
21 broadcast. This part is all right, and I'll refer to a page -- we'll go
22 to page 12, which should also be okay to broadcast.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
24 Ms. Gallagher.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE:
1 Q. Do you recall that series of questions that you were asked?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And, in particular, you were asked at that page in --
4 General Tolimir put to you the following question. He said -- and this
5 is page 7758, I believe it starts at line 1. He said:
6 "Thank you for your answer. I asked you why distant relatives
7 would give DNA samples and why this would be taken as more valid
8 information than DNA samples taken from closer relatives."
9 And he referred to the following example. He said:
10 "My following question has to do with Witness PW-14 for whom you
11 said it was the boy who was called by his father. You said that he was
12 only identified in the Krstic trial in 2004. Can you please tell us
13 whether you know when he registered his identity and why he had been
14 registered for nine years as a missing person? Thank you."
15 And your answer was:
16 "Just to go to the top part of your question, I would not say
17 that distant relatives giving DNA samples would be better than those
18 closer relatives giving DNA samples. As for the boy, Witness PW --" and
19 it's written "PW-114" -- "I don't remember when he was first interviewed.
20 I certainly know it was before he testified in 2004. I'd have to find
21 that out to see."
22 I just want to clarify with you: Do you remember giving that
23 answer to that question?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And I just want to clarify something with you, because in your
1 direct testimony at page 7718 through 7719, in respect of the photograph
2 that's now in e-court - I think you can see it - you stated that
3 Ramo Osmanovic was in Sandici Meadow, and you said:
4 "As we've seen on the Petrovic video on July 13th, in the
5 afternoon, in the video footage you'll see him calling out for his son,
7 If we can just go into private session for a moment,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 7822-7826 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
18 Q. Ms. Gallagher, with respect to Ramo Osmanovic and his son,
19 Nermin Osmanovic, you indicated that his son was -- the remains of his
20 son were identified; is that right?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And do you know or can you recall where his remains were
24 A. I know it was one of the Hadzici grave-sites.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
1 I would like to go into private session, please, again and have
2 Exhibit 167 -- P00167 in e-court, please.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
4 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
12 Q. Ms. Gallagher, you were asked certain questions about information
13 concerning some 500 missing persons that General Tolimir said were being
14 kept on the missing persons list, and that General Tolimir attributed to
15 a person by the name of Tokaca who he said was the president of the
16 Commission for Finding Missing Persons, as it was translated in the
17 record. This is on page 7744 of the transcript. Now, in respect of
18 those 500 individuals, you indicated that you were not very knowledgeable
19 about a particular claim, but what I'd like to ask you about is as
21 If I could have 65 ter 6796 in e-court, please. All right.
22 We'll just wait a second for the English to come up.
23 I see it's there now.
24 What we have here is a publication from the Research and
25 Documentation Centre in Sarajevo. I think you can see the caption there.
1 And it's dated 21 April 2010, and it is entitled "Denial regarding quotes
2 of Mr. Mirsad Tokaca regarding genocide victims in Srebrenica."
3 First, in the question that was put to you by General Tolimir at
4 page 7744 of the transcript -- where he refers to this person named
5 Tokaca, Mirsad Tokaca, as you can see in the document, as the president
6 of the Commission for Finding Missing Persons, were you aware that
7 Mr. Tokaca was the director of the Research and Documentation Centre of
8 Sarajevo and not a president of a missing persons commission?
9 A. I did not know what his position was, but I knew it was not as
10 the head of ICMP.
11 Q. All right. Now, in respect of the first paragraph, it reads
13 "In reaction to recent allegations in the press about
14 manipulations of numbers of victims of genocide committed in Srebrenica,
15 the Research and Documentation Centre representatives wish to address the
16 public. In connection with this, a sentence of Mr. Mirsad Tokaca about
17 the victims is often mentioned and quoted, and for this reason,
18 specifically, we wish to make an announcement to the public with
19 additional explanations."
20 Now, in particular, were you aware that the Research and
21 Documentation Centre of Sarajevo had commented on the statements that
22 were attributed to Mirsad Tokaca and, in particular, as referred to in
23 the question put to you by General Tolimir about these 500 missing
25 A. No, I wasn't aware that the centre had publicly commented on
1 his -- on his comments.
2 Q. Let me just take you down to the middle paragraph of this
3 document, and I think a good place to kind of locate everyone is where
4 you can see, in quotes "human losses, 1991 through 1995." And what the
5 sentence reads is:
6 "Thus, in the period 2004 through 2007, in the course of the
7 investigation "Human Losses 1991 through 1995," it was established
8 through check-ups that about 500 persons, who were earlier on various
9 lists registered as missing, were found alive and that they have been
10 eliminated from the list of victims."
11 Now, having been involved in investigations in Srebrenica, in
12 particular the investigation of Srebrenica and Zepa events, do you have
13 any information that individuals that went missing in 1991 through 1994
14 are included on any missing list, OTP list, concerning the Srebrenica and
15 Zepa events?
16 A. No, I'm not. No, I don't.
17 Q. Let me take you down to the last paragraph here, and, in
18 particular, I'll refer you to the first sentence of that paragraph, where
19 it says:
20 "It was stated that the sentence '500 missing persons who were
21 found alive' was taken out of context and presented to the public in a
22 way to create the impression that the list of killed and missing people
23 from Srebrenica still contains 500 persons. First of all, it was
24 published by the SRNA news agency ..."
25 Do you have familiarity with this news agency?
1 A. I know of the agency, I know it exists.
2 Q. Tell us about it, if you know.
3 A. It's a local news agency in Bosnia. I can't tell you more than
5 Q. It says.
6 "... the information was taken over by other media mostly from
7 the area of Republika Srpska."
8 And then it says:
9 "With regard to this, Mr. Tokaca made another statement as well
10 when he denied all this in a programme of Hayat TV."
11 Now, given the fact that Mr. Tokaca has denied this and that the
12 500 people said to be missing has been taken out of context, do you know
13 whether or not any of this had any impact whatsoever on the OTP missing
14 list concerning the individuals from Srebrenica and Zepa?
15 A. I don't -- no, I mean I don't. In reading the article that you
16 just showed, it indicates that if -- if this were the case, that they
17 were taken off the list during a certain time-period, and certainly any
18 of the lists that we have consulted, and certainly had consulted with the
19 book, was past that time-period.
20 Q. One last question, and that is: With respect to determining any
21 impact that this may or may not have had on the OTP missing list, can you
22 tell us who, within the OTP, that this would be appropriately attended
24 A. I would assume it would be our demographers and, in particular,
25 Ewa Tabeau.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much for that.
2 That concludes my redirect examination.
3 Mr. President, I would like to offer this document into evidence.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1370, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, is that the end of the testimony
7 of the Witness Gallagher in this trial or will she be called again?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think that she will be called again on yet
9 another discrete issue, but it does conclude her testimony as concerning
10 this particular part -- this particular matter.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Tolimir.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since a document was
14 introduced in the redirect denying Mr. Tokaca's statement, who was not --
15 actually, the document was not presented before the examination-in-chief,
16 would you permit me to put a couple of questions relating to this
17 document? This was not in the examination-in-chief or in the redirect --
18 actually, it wasn't presented in the examination-in-chief or in the
19 cross-examination. The Prosecutor introduced this document just now.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 There are two things that arise. One is: The general has
24 familiarity with this article. It was dealt with, I believe, in
25 connection with the testimony of Mr. Ruez. That was back on 4th of May,
1 2010. In particular, it was referred to then, when the general raised at
2 that time the same issue concerning these 500 individuals. The second is
3 that during the course of cross-examination -- well, first, during the
4 course of direct examination, there was no mention made concerning this
5 article or this issue. The general raised this on cross-examination,
6 when he put the following question, and this is at page 7744 of the
7 transcript, beginning there, at line 24, where he says:
8 "Thank you. Did you hear that the president of the Commission
9 for Finding Missing Persons this year, at press conferences, publicly
10 stated that he had established that more than 500 persons were being kept
11 on the missing persons list?"
12 This document is directly responsive to that. He identifies this
13 person as Mr. Tokaca, which is the subject matter of this document.
14 And so this press article, from the agency of which Mr. Tokaca is
15 a director, is directly responsive to the issue raised as to the 500
16 individuals that General Tolimir says Mr. Tokaca discussed as having
17 been -- having been kept on the missing list, and, in fact, it shows that
18 that's not the case, as was put during the cross-examination. So there's
19 no basis for General Tolimir to conduct a re-cross-examination based on
20 the fact that what he has proffered during the course of
21 cross-examination has been rebutted by a document put in redirect.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber has considered the position of both
25 parties. And since the Chamber has the discretion to allow or not to
1 allow additional questions, in these specific circumstances the Chamber
2 will grant the application of the accused to put questions to the witness
3 especially and only to this document just admitted as P1370, because this
4 is a new document which is now in evidence, under these specific
5 circumstances of this case.
6 Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
8 I did want to just point out that it's not a new document. The
9 accused has had the document since May of this year, and, in fact, it's
10 specifically referenced in the transcript of the testimony of Mr. Ruez.
11 So I just want -- I just want the Trial Chamber to know that, because I
12 know that although I referred to it being discussed back then, it was
13 actually -- it was actually used to address this specific issue, and the
14 accused has had the document since then as well.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is aware of the fact that it was on
16 the 65 ter exhibit list as 65 ter 6796, but it is now today received as
17 an exhibit into evidence.
18 Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has ruled on it. Please put your
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Mr. President, I would like to ask --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm looking on the clock. We have now a quarter
23 before 6.00. Do you need more than five or ten minutes for your
24 additional questions?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. But if you would like to take
1 the break now, I'm fine with putting my questions after the break.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, you should proceed now if you only
3 need seven minutes.
4 Please go ahead.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Further cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I would like to welcome
8 Ms. Gallagher.
9 Q. I would like to ask you this: This denial issued by the IWC or
10 IVC, does that have anything of what Mr. Tokaca said? Does it quote him
11 in any way or does it state what he said? Thank you.
12 A. Let me take a quick look at the document.
13 He appears to be more paraphrased than directly quoted, except
14 for in the last paragraph, where it says:
15 "It was stated that the sentence '500 missing persons who were
16 found alive' ..."
17 That's the only part that I see in quotes that was verbatim.
18 Q. Thank you. Were -- Mr. Tokaca's words that are being cited, are
19 they cited anywhere in this denial or does the denial contain the words
20 of whoever drafted it? Thank you.
21 A. As I said, it doesn't appear that he -- that they are citing his
22 specific words, specific sentences. It's a comment, it seems to be, on
23 the content and context of what he had said or any report he had made.
24 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell us if the OTP or you have a
25 denial issued by Mr. Tokaca, himself, regarding the things that are being
1 denied by this institution as well and that I'm not aware of? Thank you.
2 A. I certainly don't have a denial issued by him. I do not know
3 what the OTP has regarding him. As I mentioned, I know very little of
4 this matter.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 In fact, we do have such a document, and that was disclosed to
8 the accused 10 September 2010. It is a document that is signed by
9 Mirsad Tokaca, and he explains, in effect, what we can see in the
10 article. I think the accused knows this. And if it would be of some
11 assistance to the Trial Chamber, I can present that to the Trial Chamber
12 so that you can evaluate it and take a look at it as well.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you give us a number of this document?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: It has an ERN number of 0667-9059.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 If the Prosecution has a number -- a document, let them then
18 tender it, because what is in the database with an ERN number doesn't
19 mean that I was actually able to find it in the database and was able to
20 familiarise myself with it. Perhaps the Prosecutor can show it in the
21 courtroom, present it, so that we can see what it is, what it says.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have a 65 ter number?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: We don't have a 65 ter number for it, but -- and
24 I'm not sure if we can -- I can put it on the ELMO and we can take a look
25 at it. I have a hard copy of it, but I don't have a 65 ter number for
1 it, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment, Mr. Tolimir is putting questions.
3 It's up to you, how to continue.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am interested in
5 Ms. Gallagher's answer to this:
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Anything that is connected to this document which was published,
8 this denial, did the Prosecution investigate anything on this matter
9 relating to data you presented here as a witness, that you stand by, and
10 that you answered a question from Judge Mindua previously about a person
11 identifying themselves and in that way being able to be removed from the
13 I apologise. It was a question put not by Judge Mindua but by
14 Judge Nyambe. I'm sorry. Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 I think, although I may not be able to find the reference
18 immediately, that this question was put to Ms. Gallagher on
19 cross-examination already as concerns the investigation concerning these
20 individuals or the source of that information, and she's answered it.
21 And I don't know that it arises from the redirect examination that was
22 conducted just a few moments ago.
23 In any event, I should inform the Court that the document that
24 I'm referring to has been available to the accused for some time. It
25 will be dealt with appropriately by the demographers that the Prosecution
1 intends to call, which I think -- whom I think will be able to answer
2 these questions more effectively and more informatively for the
3 Trial Chamber.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber gave you the possibility
5 to put some more questions, but only related to the document we have on
6 the screen, not to other issues. Do you have any more questions?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 I don't have questions, and I don't wish to put any other
9 questions other than ones that have to do with the document. I only want
10 to ask this: Ms. Gallagher, who stands by this data, does she stand
11 behind this data or do the demographers stand behind this data? Because
12 on a number of occasions during the cross-examination, she said that this
13 is something that the demographers can identify, but we're talking about
14 33 persons who had been identified, 28 of whom on the basis of DNA. This
15 is why I'm asking. Who is standing behind this data? Is it
16 Ms. Gallagher or is it the persons who were the source of these
17 documents? I would need to know this in order to be able to present
18 documents that can prove the opposite.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this could have been part of your
21 cross-examination. This question has nothing to do with the article we
22 have on the screen, and, therefore, this is not an appropriate question
23 for this witness at this point in time.
24 I take it that you have finished your additional questioning for
25 the witness.
1 If there are no other questions by the Chamber, I would like to
2 thank you, Ms. Gallagher, for your attendance again here in the
3 courtroom, and you are free now to return to your normal work. Thank you
4 very much again.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, what are your plans for tonight,
7 for the last part of this session?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have another witness, Mr. Janc, who I believe
9 is prepared to go. I just started my redirect examination of him on the
10 specific issue concerning the Skorpions video, the involvement of the
11 Serbian MUP with the VRS and so on, as you may recall, and I'm prepared
12 to go forward with that, with the Court's leave.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, we will do that and use every minute of our
14 trial time.
15 We must have our second break now, and we will resume half past
17 --- Recess taken at 5.57 p.m.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 --- On resuming at 6.35 p.m.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Janc.
21 Before your examination will continue, the Chamber would like to
22 discuss the next witness especially with Mr. McCloskey.
23 In the meantime, we have received a list of about 30 documents to
24 be used with Mr. Blaszczyk. There are some concerns about this list.
25 These -- I think we only found two of these exhibits on the 65 ter
1 witness list. These are not even indicated with these 65 ter numbers.
2 We see that all these documents, many of them are indicated to be
3 note-books of Ratko Mladic. In this case, we are not prepared to accept
4 testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk on this amount of documents. Only four
5 documents related to the Mladic note-books are on the 65 ter exhibit
6 list. These are 65 ter 5486, 87, 88 and 89. Two of them we were able to
7 find now on the new list of documents to be used with Mr. Blaszczyk.
8 This is not an appropriate way to introduce a witness. We have
9 not received a witness summary for this witness, only by e-mail an
10 indication that Mr. Blaszczyk will testify about the chain of custody of
11 the Mladic note-books.
12 We end about the authenticity of these note-books. Comparing the
13 list of the documents already in the 65 ter exhibit list, they are called
14 "Mladic note-books," two of them. In the new list, they are called
15 "Brown business diary," with the same number. We have no indication
16 about the content. We have no indication about the content of the
17 witness testimony to be heard tomorrow, and, therefore, we are not in the
18 position to accept testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk on those topics not yet in
19 the 65 ter witness list.
20 We would like to invite the Prosecution to file a written
21 submission to grant the addition of these documents to the 65 ter witness
22 list. If we receive such a motion, we will -- with a response by the
23 Defence, I think this is a principle of fairness, even if the Defence is
24 in the possession of these documents already, but were obviously not
25 aware of the fact that Mr. Blaszczyk will testify about these matters.
1 Only the four note-books listed in the 65 ter exhibit list - I've
2 mentioned their numbers - may be the content of the testimony of
3 Mr. Blaszczyk viva voce to be commenced tomorrow.
4 I hope I made the position of the Chamber clear.
5 Are there any comments by the parties?
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
8 We understand, Mr. President, and this was, as you know, was an
9 effort to try to fill some space on what isn't as complicated as it
10 seems, but it is an important topic and it deserves the attention you
11 would like to have it given. And we will get that prepared and file it
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you intend to call Mr. Blaszczyk to testify
14 about the four documents listed in the 65 ter exhibit list?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It probably would be more efficient to get it all
16 together so that this can be done at once.
17 Fundamentally, he will be testifying to what he testified to in
18 the Karadzic case. So I have not had time, myself, to review that in any
19 detail, but I can just -- so you understand a bit what this was about,
20 again I'll stand like this.
21 In 2008, the Serbians did a search, received some Mladic diaries.
22 They did one much more recently and they've -- we now have a collection
23 that covers most of the war period. And I'm sure you've heard other
24 trials are dealing with these diaries, because many of the entries in the
25 diaries have certain relevance to all these other trials, and so
1 fundamentally this is not much different than what he was testifying
2 about the Drina Corps collection, that this is when the -- this is how
3 the Serbian forces went and did these searches, and they found a lot of
4 material. And then in addition to that, he provides some material that
5 helps -- will help in any evaluation regarding their genuineness. For
6 example, if there's a reference in one of the diaries about a meeting
7 from the Serbian Assembly, and then they find -- and then I think we've
8 attached the Serbian Assembly, that it would show a similar entry.
9 Mr. Blaszczyk is not an analyst nor an expert, he wasn't going to talk
10 about all this, but he's just providing the background for it. So here's
11 all the materials that they got over the years, here is how it happened,
12 and here's some other material that will help the Court, should they want
13 to review this material in analysing it. And it came in relatively
14 simply that way, and -- but it should be explained to you properly so
15 that you're not wondering what it is that were happening before it
16 happens. And we'll suffer the unfortunate problem of not having a
17 witness tomorrow, but I think it's better that you are more comfortable
18 that you're getting a proper presentation of new material, because this
19 is material that's come in, you know, well after the 65 ter list, so
20 we're all -- it's not so essential for this case, but it's something we
21 want you to see, and so we have been getting to it in our -- in a proper
22 time-frame. And we're just trying to accelerate it, but it's not going
23 to work, we can see that, so we'll get it in a better time-frame and get
24 it to you in a motion package that you're more comfortable with. But
25 that's what it's about: He's just going to talk about the searches and
1 what was obtained in the searches, but it gets more complicated after
3 But, in any event, we completely understand your situation, and
4 we'll get it done properly.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
6 The Chamber appreciates your efforts not to use court time and
7 not to lose court time. This is, indeed, a very important matter. On
8 the other hand, we have to be sure that we follow procedure which is
9 according to our Rules of Procedure and Evidence and the normal
10 proceedings in this Tribunal.
11 Are there any further comments? Otherwise, we should continue
12 with the testimony of Mr. Janc.
13 Mr. Janc, welcome back to the courtroom. I have to remind you
14 that the affirmation you made at the beginning of your testimony still
16 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I think we are still in the re-examination by
18 Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
21 Good evening to you and Your Honours.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
23 Q. Good evening, Mr. Janc.
24 A. Good evening.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think when we left of last time, we were
1 looking at 65 ter 6779. If we could have that in e-court, please, and we
2 should not broadcast this document.
3 Q. Just to reacquaint you with where we are in the process,
4 Mr. Janc: I had you on redirect examination concerning the very specific
5 issues raised on cross-examination with regard to your testimony about
6 the authentification [sic] -- "authentication," I should say, of the
7 Skorpion videos, you'll recall. And, in particular, you were asked
8 certain questions regarding the materials that you relied on in the
9 context of your testimony by General Tolimir. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes, I do recall that, yes.
11 Q. And to be more particular, on page 7034, lines 10 through 23, you
12 were put the following question by General Tolimir. In particular, he
14 "We're still talking about information concerning the executions
15 of these six persons in Trnovo. I won't mention their names. Did you
16 personally investigate how they ended up in Trnovo, which is 200
17 kilometres away from Srebrenica?"
18 Your answer was:
19 "Not me, personally, but several steps towards this -- regarding
20 this issue have been done by the other members of the OTP, investigators,
21 my colleagues, and there was a statement of one of the individuals who
22 was interviewed, who says that these individuals -- not only this but
23 some other individuals were brought from the area of Srebrenica, after
24 the fall of Srebrenica, by buses and trucks to Trnovo, to the Trnovo
25 area. These buses and trucks were going up and down several times and
1 were bringing the men from Srebrenica down to this area, and these six
2 individuals, those who were the last group of those transported down from
3 Srebrenica and were subsequently killed there."
4 Do you recall giving that answer to the preceding question?
5 A. Yes, I do recall that, yes.
6 Q. The statement we have now in e-court, is that one of the
7 statements that you relied upon in giving that answer and in making these
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. What I'd like to do is take you over to page 11 in this document.
11 I think -- I just want to see if I can get the corresponding page in the
12 B/C/S. It looks like it should also be page 11 in the B/C/S. No, it
13 will be page 12 in the B/C/S, I think.
14 In the English, I would direct your attention, in particular, to
15 the sentence that begins:
16 "The operation in Trnovo was going on for some 18 to 19 days."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. It's the third paragraph down on the page, for the
20 Trial Chamber's benefit.
21 In the fifth paragraph, we see that this individual states that:
22 "After I had left --"
23 All right. I understand it should be page 11 in the B/C/S. It
24 may cross over into page 12. I can't tell just now.
25 But, in any event, in the English, it reads:
1 "After I had left, Slobodan Medic ordered aka Coke to prepare the
2 trucks and buses. Two men, aka Braco and Djuro Meleusic, were ordered to
3 take a bus and truck and to go to Srebrenica."
4 Did you hear that or did you consider that in making the
5 conclusions that you did during the course of your cross-examination
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And if we go a little bit further down - it should be the second
9 paragraph from the bottom - this individuals states:
10 "With the bus and the truck, they were driving back and forth to
11 Srebrenica, bringing captured Muslims from Srebrenica to different
12 locations to be killed. I do not know exactly where in the Srebrenica
13 area they picked up the people, but they always went to the same
15 Did that form the basis of your testimony as you gave it during
16 cross-examination as well?
17 A. Yes, I can confirm that, yes.
18 Q. And, in particular, in the very last paragraph, it states that:
19 "Slobodan Medic knew that none of the groups was for us but he
20 told the men that this package was for us. The word 'package' was always
21 used to describe a group of prisoners."
22 And then it says:
23 "Medic singled out the men who should kill the prisoners, and he
24 issued the orders, and the men were taken away and killed."
25 Is this part of the information that you relied on also in terms
1 of your testimony as you gave it during cross-examination?
2 A. Correct, yes.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd just like to go to the next page in the
4 English, and I think it may -- it may be the next page also in the B/C/S.
5 Q. And right at the top of the page in English, you can see it says:
6 "I learned about this incident because I was given a copy of the
7 videotape shot during the killing."
8 Do you -- you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is this part of the information that you relied on in order
11 to authenticate the videotape in question?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. What I'd like to do -- if you recall, during the
14 course of your redirect testimony when you were last year, an issue arose
15 with respect to the association of the Skorpions unit and what was
16 referred to as the Serbian DB. Do you recall that?
17 A. Yes, I do recall that.
18 Q. And did you rely also on this particular statement in terms of
19 your testimony concerning the existence of such an association?
20 A. Yes, also on this statement, yes.
21 Q. I'd just like to briefly show you page 7 of this statement in the
22 English. I think it should be -- what is written, anyway, is page 7 in
23 the B/C/S. If you look at the bottom of the page, I can tell you how far
24 we have to go. I think we're there.
25 Yes, we'll have to go from page -- I'm sorry. We'll have to go
1 from page 6 to page 7, so we'll start with page 6, please.
2 All right. In the English -- I'm sorry, at page 6 in the
3 English. Yes, we are there.
4 You can see that this individual is talking about having joined
5 the unit in 1994. That's right in the middle of the page. Do you see
6 that, Mr. Janc?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, if we go to page 7, I think, on both documents --
9 yeah, I think that's right. In the middle of the page in the English,
10 you'll see that it says:
11 "The Skorpions were wearing green camouflage uniforms, similar to
12 the ones Arkan's unit was wearing. We had a badge with a sword showing
13 that we were a Serbian DB unit. Under the sword was written the words
14 'Skorpion' and the sword was the insignia of the Serbian DB."
15 Are you familiar with that particular badge or patch?
16 A. I think I've seen this badge once, but right now I would not be
17 able to recall it, how it looks like.
18 Q. Okay. Let's go down to the following paragraph, which begins:
19 "After the Skorpions were disbanded ..."
20 It reads:
21 "... some of the members were given a document telling that they
22 were a reserve force of the Special Unit of the Serbian DB, known as the
24 Can you tell us a little bit about that, if you relied on that
25 concerning your testimony about the association of the Skorpions unit and
1 the Serbian DB?
2 A. Yes, also.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show you -- I think I'm done with
4 this document for now. It's 65 ter 6779.
5 Mr. President, I would offer this for admission into evidence.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1371, Your Honours.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: And it should be under seal. I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, under seal.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 6780,
12 Q. Mr. Janc, is this a statement that you also considered in terms
13 of your testimony regarding the authenticity of the Skorpions video?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And you may recall that this is an individual who is referred to
16 in the affidavit of Tore Soldal, the OTP investigator, that's in evidence
17 now. Is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And I'd like to take you to -- bear with me for one moment. I'd
20 like to take you to paragraph 105 of this statement. And I don't have a
21 B/C/S page number handy, I don't think, but if we can go to -- well,
22 you've got it. Thank you very much.
23 If you look at paragraph 105, there is a reference in this
24 statement that this individual went to see someone by the name of Boca.
25 Do you know this person Boca, who that is?
1 A. I think this individual is a member of the Skorpions unit.
2 Q. Okay. Could it have been Slobodan Medic?
3 A. Yes, correct.
4 Q. And this individual says that:
5 "When I went to see him, I saw a bus full of civilians arrive,
6 escorted by the CSB. These civilians were from Srebrenica. The CSB
7 people called Boca out and removed the civilians from the bus. Boca
8 asked what was going on, and he was told that these civilians were 'our
9 share.' The CSB man explained to him that they were distributing
10 civilians for killing in different locations because they didn't want too
11 many people killed in one place."
12 Did you take account of this particular paragraph, this reference
13 in this statement, in terms of -- in terms of establishing the
14 authenticity of the videotape, the Skorpions videotape?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And is this --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You will realise we're running out of time.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I see --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have no idea how much time you need for
22 concluding your re-examination.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have really -- well, I have one other
24 statement that I'd like the witness to take a look at, and I don't think
25 it will take much longer than how long it's taken with this statement, so
1 maybe another five minutes. But I can also -- as you know, this witness
2 is available on relatively short notice, and we are in the midst of this
3 examination, so it will be easy to pick up if you prefer to adjourn now.
4 I see that we've already over the time, so that might be --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is always a problem for the whole staff, for
6 the interpreters, for the Transportation Unit, and so on.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let me just -- I think I'm finished with this
8 document. I would offer it into evidence, and then that will be it for
9 today. And hopefully I can pick up, at the convenience of the
10 Trial Chamber, on another day or time.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1372, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: When did you intend to call Mr. Janc again for
14 continuation of his re-examination?
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, we can call him whenever it's
16 convenient for the Court.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that Mr. Blaszczyk will not testify
18 tomorrow. There is no other witness tomorrow, and therefore I think for
19 continuation for another 10 or 15 minutes, it is especially in the
20 interests of the accused not to be transported for this short period from
21 the UNDU to the Tribunal, that in that case it's not very helpful to sit
22 tomorrow at all.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: If that's the case, Mr. President, Mr. Janc can
24 be scheduled whenever it is convenient for the Court. Other than that,
25 next week sometime, or any time.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, would you agree with that, not to
2 sit tomorrow?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I agree
4 with that proposal if, indeed, it is only a quarter of an hour.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, we have to adjourn now and resume
6 on Monday in the afternoon at 2.15 in this courtroom. Thank you very
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of
11 November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.