1 Thursday, 25 November 2010.
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 We can predict a quite unusual hearing today, I think.
7 Mr. Elderkin, what is the situation?
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Good morning, Your Honours, everybody.
9 Your Honours, we have, I understand, Mr. Janc available to
10 complete what is left of any redirect examination and any continuation
11 from the Defence. In addition to that -- that will be handled by
12 Mr. Vanderpuye, on the part of the Prosecution. And I'm here today
13 simply to finish the tendering process from yesterday.
14 Also, there's one short preliminary. There are a few documents
15 for which there are now translations that had been previously MFI'd, and
16 perhaps I could just list those straight away for the record.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We can start with that.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: So these are Exhibit numbers P00200, P00610,
19 P00619, P01152, and P01153. And translations for all of those have now
20 been up-loaded.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 We struggled a little bit with e-court. It was not working from
23 the outset. And I take it that these exhibits are now admitted into
24 evidence. Thank you very much.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: In addition, for the tendering of the documents
1 from the end of Mr. Blaszczyk's direct examination yesterday, Ms. Stewart
2 circulated a marked-up version of our tender list for Mr. Blaszczyk, with
3 items marked in blue relating to the corroborating materials on the
4 chart, 65 ter 6826, that we used for the second part of yesterday's
5 examination, and then the items in green are the note-books, themselves.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification. Indeed, we
7 received this e-mail yesterday, but we are not in a position to decide on
8 that now because we have to check it.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Very good, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
11 At this point in time, I would like to ask the Defence,
12 Mr. Tolimir, if you are in a position to commence your cross-examination
13 of Mr. Blaszczyk today, or is it still your position to postpone that for
14 a later stage?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said yesterday
16 that we can put one or two formal questions to Mr. Blaszczyk about what
17 he had said, not about the documents that were shown, and I thought it
18 would be best to do it after I review all the documents, because the
19 other parties in other proceedings received allocations of up to three
20 months. Karadzic, for instance, is still adjourned for the same purpose
21 of reviewing documents. And I need also a certain period of time to
22 study this material, because I want to see all that my commander has said
23 and written about me during the war. I know most of it, but I still want
24 to review this material. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, Mr. Tolimir, this is a very acceptable
1 position. It was just a question if you have changed your position since
2 we have discussed it yesterday. It is up to you to decide, and we will
3 wait until you will indicate that you are prepared to conduct your
5 In this case, we should call and bring into the courtroom the
6 next witness for continuation of the redirect of Mr. Janc.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: And perhaps you can guess my question,
8 Your Honour, but since I won't be dealing with Mr. Janc, may I be excused
9 for the rest of the session?
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of course, Mr. Elderkin. Have a nice working
12 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, Mr. Janc, and good morning,
16 Mr. Vanderpuye.
17 May I remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth you made
18 a long time ago still applies today.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye is continuing his redirect
22 Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning to
24 you, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone, and good morning to you,
25 Mr. Janc.
1 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
3 Q. I have only a few questions left with respect to your redirect
5 You do recall that during the course of your cross-examination,
6 General Tolimir asked you about your having reviewed certain information
7 regarding the authenticity and reliability of the Skorpions video, do
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. All right. And the last time you testified, I showed you the
11 statement of a Goran Stoparic. Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'd like to ask you if you, in preparation for your direct
14 testimony on this issue, reviewed the statements of Slobodan Stojkovic
15 concerning the authenticity of the Skorpions video footage.
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And did you rely on information contained in that statement, to
18 some extent, in providing the information that you did to the
19 Trial Chamber concerning the circumstances under which that footage was
20 shot and, in fact, came into the possession of the Office of the
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. I'd like to show you 65 ter 6782.
24 If I can have that in e-court, please.
25 What I'm showing you, Mr. Janc, and I think the heading of it is
1 pretty self-evident, but it is a statement dated 15 July 2005, it is a
2 statement of Slobodan Stojkovic, and it is made to an investigating
3 judge, Milan Dilparic of the Belgrade District Court War Crimes Chamber.
4 Do you see that?
5 A. Yes, I do see that, but I have to correct you; it's 15 of June,
7 Q. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Is this a statement
8 that you reviewed and relied on, as we've just mentioned, before?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Now, if we can go to the second page of this
11 document, I think both in the English and the B/C/S.
12 Q. You recall that the last time you were here -- just a moment.
13 That would have been on the 17th of November. I asked you a question.
14 It's at -- I have it as 6780 of the transcript -- I'm sorry, 7851 and
15 7852 of the transcript. I asked you about a person named Boca in
16 relation to a paragraph we were reviewing in Goran Stoparic's statement,
17 and, in particular, I asked you whether this person named Boca in that
18 statement could have been Slobodan Medic. You indicated that that was
19 the case. Here, we can see the investigating judge essentially asking
20 the same question of Mr. Stojkovic, and you see his response, that Boca
21 refers to Medic, Slobodan. That's in the second sentence and third
22 sentence of this page. Is that some of the information that you relied
23 upon in first answering that question as I put it to you back on the 17th
24 of November?
25 A. Yes, correct.
1 Q. And do you have any other source of information with respect to
2 that conclusion?
3 A. Yes. There were other statements of other witnesses which also
4 said that Boca is nickname of Slobodan Medic.
5 Q. Could you just remind us who Slobodan Medic was or is in relation
6 to the Skorpions Unit.
7 A. Slobodan Medic was the leader of the Skorpions Unit.
8 Q. Okay. I'd like to take you to a different part of the statement,
9 and I'll need to go to page 12 in the English, and I think that should
10 correspond to page 17 in the B/C/S. Okay.
11 The first thing I wanted to ask you about was: This Slobodan
12 Stojkovic, the statement that we have here in front of us, can you tell
13 us briefly what his role was with respect to the Skorpions video footage?
14 A. He was the one who filmed the incident, so he was having his
15 camera -- actually, the camera, not his camera, but the camera in his
16 hand, and he was filming the entire footage.
17 Q. I think you were asked some questions on cross-examination about
18 what the reason was that he shot this footage and whether it was the
19 result of an order. Do you recall that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Now, having reviewed this statement, we can see, right in the
22 middle of the page in the English, and I think it will be at the bottom
23 of the page in the B/C/S, Mr. Stojkovic states that:
24 "It happened that a Kosanovic, Dusko, fell ill and had to be
25 returned home, and four or five days, no one made any recordings. I set
1 together with them, fooling around, and then Boca said, 'Go and take it
2 and to -- and record something, since you're busy doing nothing.'"
3 Is it your understanding, based upon having reviewed this
4 testimony, that the person who would have normally recorded this footage
5 was, in fact, this individual named here by Mr. Stojkovic, Kosanovic?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. And is it your understanding, based on this statement, that the
8 person who, in fact, did record the footage was Slobodan Stojkovic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, in fact, if we go a little bit down the page and we go to
11 the next page in the B/C/S, we should see an exchange between
12 Mr. Stojkovic and the investigating judge, where we can see Mr. Stojkovic
14 "I took the video camera."
15 And the judge asked:
16 "What did you record?"
17 And he says:
18 "All sorts of things."
19 And ultimately the judge asks him:
20 "Did you record a murder?"
21 And his answer is: "Yes."
22 Is that what you based, in part, your testimony concerning the
23 circumstances of the video footage being shot on?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. I'd like to take you to another part of this statement.
1 If we can just -- actually, we can just focus in on the very last
2 paragraph on this very page, and I think it's the same page in the B/C/S,
3 also the paragraph at the bottom that we can see just now.
4 And in that circumstance, we can see what Mr. Stojkovic says, in
5 particular, about having to go and record this footage. In the middle of
6 the paragraph, he says:
7 "I put -- I was sleeping in the lorry, when he woke me up, 'Come
8 on, get up quick to go and make a recording.' I put on my clothes in a
9 hurry, did not know what was going on ..."
10 And so forth. And then he says:
11 "I got there, and Boca merely told me, 'Go and record that.'"
12 Did you rely on that to any extent in determining the
13 circumstances under which that video footage was recorded?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. All right. Now, I want to take you to a different area. It
16 should be on the following page in the English, and I think it should be
17 on page 20 in the B/C/S.
18 Okay. All right, I think we're on the right page. I'm sure
19 Mr. Gajic will let me know if we're not.
20 All right. Let's try page 21 in the B/C/S. In the English, it's
21 at the bottom. It will be page 20 in the B/C/S. I'm sorry.
22 In the English, we can see at the bottom of the page
23 Mr. Stojkovic talks about the battery of the video camera. Do you recall
24 being asked about that on cross-examination, Mr. Janc?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And do you know what the circumstances were with respect to how
2 and why the battery was changed for the purposes of making the recording?
3 A. Yes. The battery was losing power and getting dead, and that's
4 why they wanted this one to be replaced with another one.
5 Q. And, in fact, you can see that right there in the transcript of
6 this statement, at the bottom; is that fair to say?
7 A. Yes, correct.
8 Q. And Mr. Stojkovic indicates that he told somebody to go and fetch
9 another battery?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And, in fact, on the videotape you can see the truck
12 heading back; isn't that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Okay. If we go to the next page in the English -- page 16 in
15 English, and I think we remain on the same page in the B/C/S, you can
16 see -- no.
17 No, we need to go to page 14, the ERN ending 84. Thanks a lot.
18 Sorry about that.
19 And here we can see that -- we can see that Mr. Stojkovic talks
20 about how it is that Medic, Branislav, went back to go get this battery,
21 and that's right there in the third -- well, it's the second statement
22 made by Stojkovic on this page. Is that right, Mr. Janc?
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. All right. And now I think we can go to the next page in the
25 English, ending 85, page 15, and I think we'll need to go to page 22, at
1 the bottom, and then over to page 23 in the B/C/S.
2 And just after the middle of the page, we can see the
3 investigating judge ask Mr. Stojkovic:
4 "When Medic returned with this battery, what happened next?"
5 Do you see that, Mr. Janc? It's just about where the cursor is,
6 I think.
7 A. Yes, I see -- I see that.
8 Q. And then it indicates he -- that is, Mr. Stojkovic indicates that
9 he changed the battery and then there was a move, and he's asked:
10 "Who ordered the move?"
11 Do you recall being asked on cross-examination about who ordered
12 either these killings or ordered the manner in which they were carried
13 out, by General Tolimir? Do you remember being asked by General Tolimir
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Okay. And do you recall what your response was with respect to
17 how these killings were ordered or the manner in which they were carried
18 out was ordered?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And did you rely on how it is described here in
21 Mr. Stojkovic's statement to any extent, in terms of your understanding
22 and what you related to the Trial Chamber about the circumstances in
23 which these killings were carried out or the manner in which they were
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I'd like to move to just a different
2 section of this statement. I'm going to have to go three pages up in the
3 English, to ERN ending 88. It should be page 18, and it should be
4 page 27 in the B/C/S.
5 I'd like to go into private session for just a moment, if I
6 could, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. We turn into private session.
8 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just for the Court's convenience, this
11 individual's statement is admitted as P1371 under the pseudonym PW-78.
12 Q. All right. Mr. Janc, I just have a couple more questions for
14 You were asked -- you were asked on cross-examination about how
15 it is that these individuals from Srebrenica got down to Trnovo. Do you
16 recall that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. All right. I'd like to direct your attention to this same page.
19 And we can see, in the middle of this page, what Mr. Stojkovic says. And
20 in your testimony, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you said
21 that your understanding was that individuals were brought from Srebrenica
22 to Trnovo by bus or truck.
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. And is that based upon, in part, what you see here in this
25 statement, where Mr. Stojkovic says, it should be in the middle of the
2 "I only heard they were brought by truck, well, now, how, what,
3 and where from."
4 A. Yes, although we have only truck here, but from the other
5 statement we have seen before, there was also bus mentioned.
6 Q. I'd like to refer to, it should be page 23 in the English and
7 page 25 in the B/C/S.
8 And at the bottom of the page, you can see the investigating
9 judge asking about these individuals, and he says:
10 "We will make conclusions. Tell me, since you were present, you
11 are still saying that you were far from the place while the six of them
12 were being interrogated on the way down. Did those people say where they
13 were from, who they were, anything about that?"
14 And you can see Mr. Stojkovic answers:
15 "I received information that they were from Srebrenica. Now,
16 whether the information is true or not, I can't ..."
17 Now, did you rely on this information to any extent in reaching
18 the conclusion that the individuals that were killed, that we see on the
19 videotape, were, in fact, from Srebrenica?
20 A. Yes, also.
21 Q. And in addition to this statement, what other information did you
22 rely on in concluding that these individuals that we can see being killed
23 in the videotape were, in fact, from Srebrenica?
24 A. There is additional statement talking about this same issue, and
25 the most important for me was that they were on a missing list, on the
1 ICRC missing list for Srebrenica-related victims.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. That concludes my use of this
3 statement, Mr. President. I'd like to tender it.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1397, Your Honours.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I did just want to go over one other thing
7 in -- just a moment. I'll give you the exhibit number. P1372, if I
8 could have that in e-court, please.
9 Q. We have here again, Mr. Janc, the statement of Goran Stoparic
10 that I referred to back on the 17th of November, when you testified last.
11 There were some questions that were put to you during the course of your
12 cross-examination regarding whether or not the reference to Serbian DB
13 was a general reference referring to something of a Serb nature, rather
14 than something pertaining to the Republic of Serbia. Do you recall -- do
15 you recall that cross-examination?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And was it your understanding that the Serbian DB that is
18 referred to repeatedly in information concerning the Skorpions Unit
19 refers to the Republic of Serbia or an attachment or affiliation with the
20 Republic of Serbia?
21 A. Yes, correct. And maybe in this statement, it's not clear
22 enough, but if you -- if you read in other statements which were given by
23 different individuals in relation to the same issue, it's quite clear
24 that they were referring to the Republic of Serbia.
25 Q. All right. What I'd like to do is I'd like to show you -- and
1 hopefully I'll get the page somewhere in the ballpark, but I think it
2 should be page 13 in the English. It's paragraph 73, so hopefully we can
3 find it relatively quickly in the B/C/S as well. It's the following
4 page, I'm sorry.
5 Great, thank you very much.
6 In paragraph 73, we see what Mr. Stoparic says, and he says:
7 "While I was with the Skorpions at Djeletovci, we were regularly
8 visited by operatives of the Serbian DB, and they brought us whatever
9 equipment we needed. They also brought our salaries in envelopes."
10 Then he says:
11 "There was no RSK DB, only the Serbian DB with associates based
12 in Krajina. They had Serbian DB ID cards, and every two or three days
13 people from the DB in Sid would come to see us, and from Belgrade DB
14 operatives would come as well."
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I see that.
17 Q. Does this shed any light on the issue?
18 A. Yes, it's correctly also from here, because they're referring to
19 DB from Sid and Belgrade. These are both towns in Republic of Serbia.
20 Q. Let me refer you now to paragraph 81, which is on the following
21 page in the English, and page 21 in the B/C/S.
22 In this paragraph, we see he states:
23 "We were directly ordered into action by Mrgud, the defence
24 minister of the RSK. The VRSK would approach the unit for assistance
25 through Mrgud or through Boca," who we know is Slobodan Medic, "directly
1 if the VRSK commander personally knew him. For local actions, Boca had
2 authority to deploy us, but for actions further away, Boca always had to
3 go through Belgrade."
4 Does this shed any light on that issue?
5 A. Yes, it's just confirmation what I already said, that they were
6 referring to the Republic of Serbia.
7 Q. Now, if we can go to the previous page in the B/C/S. I think
8 that will be page 20. We'll stay on this same page in English, and we'll
9 go to paragraph 78.
10 In this paragraph, Mr. Stoparic talks about this issue some more,
11 and he says:
12 "We built a whole headquarters complex at Djeletovci," this is
13 the headquarters of the Skorpions Unit, "including accommodation,
14 kitchens, gyms, et cetera. Our expenses were paid by the DB and by the
15 Krajina Oil Company, which provided most of our funds. I was issued an
16 identification booklet by the Skorpions with my photo and rank. It
17 indicated that I was a member of MUP Serbia State Security (DB ). My
18 identification booklet did not say 'RSK,' it said 'Republic of Serbia.'"
19 Did you rely on this statement in reaching the conclusions you
20 did, in part, concerning the Skorpions Unit and its relationship to the
21 Republic of Serbia?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. Janc.
24 That concludes my redirect examination, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Janc, I have only one question for you.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have heard and seen, in one of the statements
4 we have looked at, the name of Branislav Medic. Earlier, you were asked
5 about the leader of the Skorpions Unit, and you told us it is
6 Slobodan Medic. Is this the same person or are these different persons?
7 A. No, Your Honour, these are two different persons. And I think
8 they are related between each other, but both are definitely different
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
11 Mr. Janc, you will be pleased that this concludes your
12 examination, your testimony here in the courtroom in this trial, at least
13 in relation to this topic you were testifying about, the so-called
14 Skorpion video. Thank you very much that you helped us, and now you are
15 free to return to your normal work for the OTP. Thank you very much.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I see that it's only 9.45. As I mentioned the other day, we do
21 not have a witness to follow Mr. Janc, for the reasons that I mentioned:
22 The witness that was scheduled to come had some really unforeseeable
23 difficulties securing his passport, so that he was unable to travel to
24 The Hague to give his testimony this week. He is scheduled now, I
25 believe, to come next week, and will be available to come.
1 In addition, we've advanced some of the witnesses we had planned
2 to call next week to come earlier in the week as well, so that we have --
3 we'll start off with PW-71. I believe he's in the middle of his
4 cross-examination. I have some redirect for him as well. And then we
5 have several other witnesses coming for next week. So I don't anticipate
6 that we'll have a problem for next week, as things stand now, but,
7 unfortunately, today we can't proceed any further.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.
9 This is, on one hand, unfortunate; on the other hand, not
10 avoidable. It may happen sometimes. We are in the hands of many
12 I would like to mention another issue, but we should go into
13 private session for that.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 8131-8136 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
24 The Prosecution has informed the Chamber that there is no other
25 witness available today. In this respect, we have to adjourn for the day
1 and for the week, and we will resume on Monday, in the afternoon at 2.15,
2 in this courtroom.
3 We adjourn.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.07 a.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of
6 November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.