Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8960

 1                           Wednesday, 15 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.  Like the last days,

 6     we are sitting only with two judges, pursuant to Rule 15 bis.  I suppose

 7     the next witness is ready.  He should be brought in, please.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Boering.  Welcome to the

10     Tribunal, to the courtroom.  I hope you will receive Dutch

11     interpretation.  Very good.  Would you please read aloud the affirmation

12     on the card which is shown to you now.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  PIETER BOERING

16                           {Witness answered through Interpreter]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

18             Mr. Thayer has questions for you.  Mr. Thayer.

19             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to you and

20     Your Honours; good afternoon to the Defence; good afternoon, everyone,

21     and particularly to our Dutch interpreters.  Always nice to have them

22     with us.

23                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

24        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Would you please state your name for the

25     record.

Page 8961

 1        A.   Piet Boering.

 2        Q.   And sir, do you recall testifying in this courtroom over a period

 3     of six days in September of 2006?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that well.

 5        Q.   And did you recently read that testimony, which was in the

 6     Popovic case?

 7        A.   Yes.  I reviewed that.

 8        Q.   And can you attest that the transcripts that you reviewed

 9     accurately reflect what you said during your testimony in the Popovic

10     case?

11        A.   Yes.  As far as I can remember, it describes accurately what took

12     place.

13        Q.   And can you attest before this Trial Chamber that were you asked

14     the same questions today that you were asked back in September of 2006,

15     that your answers would be the same?

16        A.   Well, basically, yes, but as things go further into the past,

17     they become harder to remember.

18        Q.   Okay.  And with that small qualification, can you attest that, to

19     the best of your ability and to your knowledge and your recollection, if

20     you were asked the same questions today that you were asked back in 2006,

21     that your answers would be the same?

22        A.   Yes, I assume that to be the case.

23             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter

24     numbers 6686 and 6687, the witness's prior testimony in the Popovic case,

25     6686 being under seal.  And if I may make one correction to the dates

Page 8962

 1     that were listed on the Prosecution's exhibit list.  The dates of his

 2     testimony were the 19th, 21st, 22nd, 25th, 26th, and 27th of September,

 3     2006.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  These two documents will be received

 5     into evidence, the first one under seal.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  65 ter 06686 shall be given

 7     Exhibit P01460 under seal, while 65 ter 06687 shall be given Exhibit

 8     P01461.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution does have a number of

10     associated exhibits to tender with respect to this witness.  I trust that

11     the Trial Chamber and court officers have a copy of the Prosecution's

12     exhibit list, which was distributed sometime ago.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, this is the list we received with all

14     the exhibits you're tendering.  These -- the documents will be received

15     starting from 65 ter 06073, because the first one is already an exhibit,

16     going through to the last one, 03331.  These are the exhibits associated

17     with the transcript in Popovic.  They will be received and the Registry

18     will provide you with the P numbers by e-mail in due course.

19             I have to correct myself.  Not by e-mail but by an internal memo.

20             MR. THAYER:  And Mr. President, if I may address the final

21     category of exhibits on the exhibit list, beginning with 6656, we will

22     not be tendering that statement of another witness.  That's already been

23     -- the small portion from that statement was already read into the

24     record.  I think it's unnecessary to admit that or tender that.  The

25     video still of the sign taken from the building in Srebrenica is already

Page 8963

 1     part of the record through the Fontana video; and the UNMO report dated 9

 2     July, again, the relevant portion was read fully into the record; and

 3     with respect to that final map 5, that is identical to map 5 in the map

 4     book in this case, which is Exhibit P104, So it's essentially the same as

 5     another document which has already been admitted.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this information.  And the video

 7     still, 65 ter 00426, is already an exhibit, P1136.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Correct, Mr. President, yes.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

10             MR. THAYER:  I have a 92 ter summary for the witness.

11             The witness arrived in Srebrenica on 3 January 1995 as part of

12     DutchBat.  He held the rank of major and served as a liaison officer with

13     the ABiH and VRS, the civilian leadership on both sides, and NGOs such as

14     MSF, ICRC and UNHCR.

15             VRS officers he met included Drina Corps commander General

16     Zivanovic, Bratunac Brigade Major Momir Nikolic, with whom he met every

17     two weeks, and Skelani Brigade commander Colonel Vukovic.  The witness

18     also met Colonel Beara twice, once between March and April, and once

19     between May and June.  Beara was interested in Naser Oric's whereabouts

20     and role, and the structure of the ABiH.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, sorry for interrupting you.  Perhaps

22     it's better you use the other microphone because everybody will hear the

23     sound of the typing on that table and this is perhaps a problem,

24     especially for the interpreters.

25             MR. THAYER:  Ms. Stewart is continuing her memoirs.

Page 8964

 1             ABiH officers he met included Commander Naser Oric, Chief of

 2     Staff Ramiz Becirovic, Ekrem, a security officer who was sometimes in

 3     charge in Oric and Becirovic's absence, and Zulfo Tursunovic, who was the

 4     independent leader in the Bandera Triangle.  The witness met with the

 5     ABiH leaders about once a week, but Becirovic quickly took over for Oric,

 6     whom the witness did not see after early or mid-February.  Topics

 7     discussed included disarming people seen with weapons, smuggling, and

 8     maintenance of the weapons in the weapon collection point.

 9             The witness also described DutchBat's efforts to disarm people

10     with weapons inside the enclave, smuggling of weapons and helicopter

11     flights into the enclave, and complaints from the VRS about ABiH raids

12     launched from inside the enclave outside the enclave.

13             The witness described the humanitarian situation in the enclave

14     and the deteriorating security situation in the months prior to the VRS

15     attack in July 1995.  In June, there were more shootings from the Serbian

16     side into the enclave, and he received reports of people being injured

17     and killed from the leadership of the local population and the hospitals.

18     The situation deteriorated and people became more insecure and drew

19     closer to each other within the city of Srebrenica.

20             The witness also described the effects of VRS convoy restrictions

21     on DutchBat.  In addition, starting in late May and early June, DutchBat

22     peacekeepers also faced direct fire at their vehicles, targeting just in

23     front of or behind them, when leaving the compound.

24             The witness described the events during the VRS attack on the

25     enclave, including the movement of the civilian population into

Page 8965

 1     Srebrenica, the shelling of the Bravo Company compound in Srebrenica, the

 2     movement of the population from Srebrenica to the DutchBat compound in

 3     Potocari, the three Hotel Fontana meetings, the boarding of buses at

 4     Potocari on 12 July, being forced at gunpoint out of the "White House,"

 5     separations of men near the Potocari compound as well as at the buses

 6     there, accompanying the first convoy to Kladanj and witnessing men being

 7     separated off of one of the buses near Tisca in the direction of the

 8     woods by Milici Brigade soldiers in the presence of Major Sarkic.

 9        Q.   Sir, I have some follow-up questions concerning some things

10     you've said in your prior testimony and statements.  First, can you just

11     tell the Trial Chamber, are you still in active service in the military;

12     and if so, what's your rank and your current position or function?

13        A.   Well, I'm still in the Dutch military.  At this point, I'm -- at

14     this point I have a different rank.  I'm not a colonel yet.

15     I'm presently working in Enschede at the centre of excellence in the

16     cooperation between military and civilians in -- within NATO, in the EU,

17     and I've just returned from a seven-month mission in Kabul, at the

18     headquarters.  My rank is lieutenant-colonel.

19        Q.   Okay.  I just want to go through a number of small quick topics,

20     just to add some detail to some issues that the Trial Chamber has heard a

21     little bit about already.  In 1995, during your tour in Srebrenica, can

22     you describe, just briefly, the division of labour between you and

23     Sergeant Major Rave.

24        A.   Generally, we would go off together and would prepare the

25     discussions and meetings about the situation, and we would also compile

Page 8966

 1     the reports together.  You might say that my role was more that of civil

 2     -- maintaining civilian contacts and being the liaison officer as well,

 3     and Sergeant Rave's tasks highlighted intelligence more.  But both areas

 4     were necessary to maintain an overall impression.

 5        Q.   So, in fact, were both of you essentially serving in a liaison

 6     capacity?  Is that fair to say?

 7        A.   Yes.  You could put it that way.

 8        Q.   Now, in the Popovic trial - and this is at transcript page 1869 -

 9     you described a speech which General Zivanovic gave early upon your

10     arrival in the enclave in early 1995.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber in

11     as much detail as you can, what General Zivanovic said.  In the Popovic

12     trial you didn't go into very much detail, and if you could provide a

13     little bit more detail, as best you can remember, about what it was that

14     he said, that would be helpful, I think, for the Trial Chamber.

15        A.   I can still remember those meetings that General Zivanovic

16     attended.  I remember that he made it clear that, in his view, the

17     Srebrenica enclave should be returned to the Serbs, especially because he

18     had lived there and he felt that he had a right to live safely there

19     again and, in his view, that was not possible at this time.  And he

20     believed that we were -- we figured in that situation as well.

21        Q.   And do you recall what, if anything, he told you would happen if

22     the enclave were not demilitarised?

23        A.   What I remember is that he insisted that we had a role in that

24     process, and if we couldn't fulfil that, then conceivably they would have

25     to do it themselves.

Page 8967

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let me see if I can jog your memory about a couple more

 2     details about what he said.  If we could have 65 ter 6690, please.

 3             Sir, what we have up on the screen is your signed witness

 4     statement from February of 1998.  Do you remember meeting with OTP

 5     investigators in February of 1998 and providing a statement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   If we could go to page 3 in both the original and B/C/S, we see

 8     in the first full paragraph in English, it's a paragraph that begins,

 9     "General Zivanovic delivered a long speech during the reception ..."  Do

10     you see that paragraph, sir?

11        A.   Yes.  I can see it.

12        Q.   And the second sentence reads:

13             "He also said that the enclave had to be demilitarised by

14     DutchBat, otherwise it would be razed to the ground."

15             Do you recall General Zivanovic saying that during the speech,

16     Colonel?

17        A.   I remember that he became very emotional and very angry and that

18     he was aggressive in his statements, and the terms as it reads here

19     convey that well.

20        Q.   And, sir, these words "razed to the ground," are those your words

21     or are those General Zivanovic's words?

22        A.   If I remember clearly, those were his words.  Certainly not my

23     words.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let's move to another topic.  Sir, do you recall the

25     Yellow Bridge check-point that was manned by the VRS nearby the DutchBat

Page 8968

 1     OP-Papa?

 2        A.   Yes.  I remember that.

 3        Q.   Do you remember whether there was one VRS soldier in particular

 4     who manned that check-point; and if so, what his name was?

 5        A.   Yes.  I spent a lot of time with that individual that was the

 6     local commandant, Jovo, a former secondary school teacher, if I remember

 7     correctly.  He was somewhat older.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Next topic:  You testified about one of the UN

 9     interpreters who was employed in July of 1995, a young man who was

10     Serbian by the name of Petar.  Do you recall him and testifying about him

11     in the last trial, sir?

12        A.   I remember him all too well.  I remember that he spent time in

13     Bratunac, especially in Bratunac.  Specifically what I stated about him

14     doesn't come to mind at this time.  He was present at most of the

15     meetings, and he regularly exchanged messages with me, so he was a

16     relatively important contact for me.

17        Q.   And do you remember learning or hearing that Petar was related to

18     anyone in particular?

19        A.   Well, yes.  He was a relative, I believe but I'm not positive at

20     this time, I believe he was related to Major Nikolic.

21        Q.   And when you refer to Major Nikolic, you're referring to Momir

22     Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  I mean Momir Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade, and we had

24     regular contact to a lesser extent with him too.  But he was the direct

25     contact for the VRS, the Republika Srpska, among the officers.  He was

Page 8969

 1     our regular contact among the officers, our point of contact there.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Next topic, sir:  When you first met Colonel Beara, and

 3     you testified in Popovic about your contacts, who introduced you to

 4     Colonel Beara?

 5        A.   If I remember correctly, Major Nikolic, Momir Nikolic, was

 6     present there.

 7        Q.   And did Momir Nikolic indicate to you what Colonel Beara's

 8     function or position was?

 9        A.   No.  With respect to both his own position and those of others,

10     other members of the military, Momir Nikolic was very closed, and if you

11     asked him, for example, what his own position was, he would become very

12     disconcerted, agitated, angry.  He didn't want that question.

13        Q.   And based on your contacts with Colonel Beara, did you form an

14     impression or a conclusion, based on those contacts, about what Colonel

15     Beara's function was in the VRS?

16        A.   Well, extensive conversations with Colonel Beara, once at Jovo

17     and then again in Fontana, especially the second time, it became clear

18     that Colonel Beara was focused on acquiring information about military

19     operations, structures, the stay of Naser Oric, helicopter movements.

20             The first time he came to OP-Papa, I remember he was more

21     forthcoming about possible planning of operations and that these things

22     had to happen and that, later on, we would be grateful to the VRS for

23     that.  He indicated that in very general terms.

24        Q.   So based on those conversations and what he was telling you, did

25     you have or did you draw any conclusions about what his -- what Colonel

Page 8970

 1     Beara's actual function or position was, what kind of an officer he was

 2     in the VRS?

 3        A.   Well, you could clearly tell that he was higher in rank than the

 4     Bratunac Brigade, and even higher up in the staff than Zivanovic.  When

 5     I spoke with him, Momir Nikolic would -- would keep to the background and

 6     would not cooperate with the conversation at all.

 7        Q.   And were you able to gain any impression of what or to which

 8     organ of the VRS Colonel Beara belonged?

 9        A.   Well, I conveyed that information to my own headquarters, with

10     the names, and I don't remember providing any feedback about his role and

11     function.  But that he was affiliated with the higher levels, conceivably

12     with the higher military institutions, that was very clear.  He dealt

13     with the institutions in Pale.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, do you recall that DutchBat had a contract with the

15     Hotel Fontana to obtain food and beverages?

16        A.   Yes, I remember that, and according to that contract, we would

17     try once a week to have a truck load full of soft drinks, cigarettes, and

18     perhaps other food, we would try to buy that, because our own provisions

19     were too limited.  This was because the supply of all kinds of provisions

20     was blocked by clearances that were not issued or were issued in very

21     limited measure by the VRS.

22        Q.   Okay.  And before we turn to the events of July 1995, sir, just

23     one additional question:  You provided some more detail a moment ago

24     about General Zivanovic's speech and what he said the VRS would do to

25     Srebrenica if the enclave were not demilitarised.  I want to read a

Page 8971

 1     question and answer that you gave during an interview with NIOD on

 2     September -- I beg your pardon, 17 December 2001.  We don't need to put

 3     it on e-court, it's not on our exhibit list, I'm just going to read it to

 4     you.  I've advised the Defence about this particular provision.  You were

 5     asked, and this is at page 41, paragraphs 679 and 680, you were asked:

 6             "Were there also warnings sometimes during the contacts with the

 7     Bosnian Serbs?  We talked about it a little last time but were there

 8     specific warnings?"

 9             And your answer was:

10             "Warnings?  In any case, there was very often the offer.  You can

11     leave the enclave with as many women and children as possible, and I

12     believe men too, as long as they are not soldiers.  There is no point in

13     you staying here.  It has to come to an end.  Threats, such as We will

14     get it back again, yes, the first message, this is ours, they have no

15     business here, was at the beginning of January, with Zivanovic who was

16     very emotional.  I was born here and this is my place.  They have no

17     business here."

18             Let me just stop right there.  In this answer, sir, where you

19     were referring to General Zivanovic, is this the same speech that you

20     told us about a few moments ago?

21        A.   If you're referring to the fact that offers were regularly made

22     for the population to leave the enclave freely, yes, that offer was made

23     repeatedly by different individuals.

24        Q.   Such as?  If you can recall.

25        A.   Well, I think it would have been Beara, Nikolic -- Momir Nikolic

Page 8972

 1     -- Zivanovic.  It was a regularly recurring topic of conversation.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And you go on in your answer and you say:

 3             "And then there was reasoning as to whether or not this is my

 4     territory.  Later, like I already said on Friday, on one occasion during

 5     Easter, an unfamiliar colonel-type man from Pale said, and I quote,

 6     'You'll be grateful to us.  Be calm, we'll settle this, this is our

 7     territory after all.'"

 8             Can you tell us anything more about this colonel from Pale?  Do

 9     you have any recollection about a name or function?  If not, that's fine.

10     I'll just move on.

11        A.   This is the individual mentioned earlier in this interrogation,

12     Colonel Beara.

13        Q.   Okay.  And finally in your answer, you state:

14             "Also, conversations during the visits to the hospital, the

15     director of the hospital, who had a lot of drink on board, then you could

16     notice that there was enormous hatred, racism or whatever you want to

17     call it," and here you're quoting this individual, and I quote, "They

18     have no right to exist, they have to be killed off."  And then you

19     continue your answer:

20             "No remorse whatsoever if that happened."

21             Now my first question to you, sir, is do you recall this

22     conversation with this person from the hospital?  And does the answer

23     that I just read to you accurately reflect what this person said?

24        A.   I remember that visit to that hospital, the tenor of his

25     discourse, and I assume that he did, in fact, say something like that.

Page 8973

 1     Hate was clearly present, especially from what I remember in that

 2     hospital over there.  Many deliberate abortions were performed.

 3     I remember the population couldn't adequately take care of babies, and he

 4     indicated that that was certainly not happening in the enclave, and he

 5     thought it was horrible that the population in the enclave was growing,

 6     and that the activities were increasing --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me:  The threats were increasing.

 8        Q.   And when you refer to the population not being able to take care

 9     of babies, are you referring to the Serb population or the Muslim

10     population inside the enclave?

11        A.   I'm referring to the hospital where abortions were taking place,

12     that was outside the enclave in Bratunac.  I'm referring to the Serb

13     population.  So outside the enclave.

14        Q.   And just to be specific, the director to whom you were speaking,

15     which hospital was he the director of?

16        A.   He was the director of the hospital in Bratunac.  We were

17     visiting there to find out whether we could provide some kind of support

18     in any way.

19        Q.   Now, the words in your answer, and I quote again, "They have no

20     right to exist.  They have to be killed off," are those your words or are

21     those his words, sir?

22        A.   Those were his words.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's turn to the events in July 1995.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, just for the sake of the record,

25     could you please put the 65 ter exhibit number on the record, of the

Page 8974

 1     document you have read out to the witness many parts of it.

 2             MR. THAYER:  For this document, Mr. President, this is not on the

 3     65 ter list.  I advised the Defence beforehand that I would be reading

 4     this one paragraph from it, but it's been disclosed for some time but not

 5     on the 65 ter list.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

 7             MR. THAYER:

 8        Q.   Now, I want to turn your attention to the 11th of July, when the

 9     civilian population was moving from the town of Srebrenica up to

10     Potocari.  You testified in the Krstic trial - and this is at transcript

11     page 1161, for the Defence - that the population, in your words or word,

12     was "expelled" from Srebrenica to Potocari.  What did you mean by saying

13     that they were expelled from Srebrenica to Potocari, Colonel?

14        A.   What I mean by that is that the city of Srebrenica was jam-packed

15     with people, Muslims.  From what I could see, they had been driven out of

16     the areas around Srebrenica into the city, in the hope of being able to

17     stay there safely.  And in the city, around the 10th, the situation also

18     was perceived as too threatening, and grenades were dropped here and

19     there, there was shooting, and reports of attacks by Serbs on the city of

20     Srebrenica circulated among the population.  Also, the impression of the

21     DutchBat units was that purges were taking place, so the population in

22     the city felt too unsafe and hoped for protection in the -- at the actual

23     DutchBat camp in Potocari because, in the city of Srebrenica, there was a

24     small company of DutchBat but nearby at least one grenade attack took

25     place, so it wasn't safe there either and it was, in any case, too small.

Page 8975

 1        Q.   And, sir, when you use the word "grenade," what are you talking

 2     about; a hand grenade or some other type of explosive?

 3        A.   I mean a different type of explosive; mortar grenades.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let's turn for a few moments to the Hotel Fontana meetings

 5     which you attended and testified about at some length in the last trial.

 6     Before you entered the first meeting, you testified that you managed to

 7     make your way into the room where a number of DutchBat peacekeepers were

 8     being held hostage.  Can you describe the appearance of those

 9     peacekeepers for the Trial Chamber, sir.  What was their situation?  How

10     did they look to you?  Could you provide a little bit more detail than

11     you did in the Popovic trial?

12        A.   I remember that in a room there was a group of about ten DutchBat

13     servicemen who were -- they did not have any freedom of movement.  They

14     were in a room, and at the exit was an armed Serb, and he had to be

15     there.  They were seated at tables and were supposed to be served a meal.

16     They indicated that they were the people from the observation posts who

17     had been taken by the Serbs and subsequently involuntarily transported to

18     Bratunac.  So these were soldiers who were not free to move:  Their

19     vehicle had been taken from them, their materials had been taken from

20     them, and they felt threatened.  And of course, before they had been

21     taken a prisoner of war by the Serbs, so to speak, they had also been

22     confronted with targeted attacks by the Serbs, who had shot at them, and

23     they were overpowered by the adversary.  So they were certainly in a well

24     -- in a state, they felt threatened, desperate.  They hoped that they

25     would be allowed to leave with us but they weren't.

Page 8976

 1        Q.   Okay.  In your Popovic testimony, you testified about when you

 2     first arrived at the meeting, that there were some VRS officers and

 3     Mladic driving Colonel Karremans into a corner and that you tried to

 4     create some space.  Can you again just provide the Trial Chamber with a

 5     little bit more detail about what you did in these circumstances.

 6        A.   Lieutenant Colonel Karremans was there with Sergeant Major Rave

 7     in a corner.  They were pressed into the corner, with a -- they were

 8     surrounded by a great many Serb military.  There was a camera crew

 9     present, and it was made clear by Mladic that he was in charge and that

10     he could do anything he wanted with us.  So at that point he was clearly

11     heaping threats upon threats.

12        Q.   And so physically, sir, what, if anything, did you do to create

13     space, as you put it in the last trial?

14        A.   Well, you try to create additional space and to push people aside

15     a bit, and I tried to do that.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, you referred, in your Popovic testimony, to a VRS

17     officer by the name of Kosovic or Kosoric.  I think you used both names

18     in your prior testimony.  Can you describe him physically for the Trial

19     Chamber, please.  Was there anything notable that you recall about his

20     physical appearance?

21        A.   Well, he had a normal build, but bold, a big mustache, a tattoo

22     of an anchor or a mortar on his arm, and he smoked a cigarette pipe

23     shaped like a mortar shell, was engraved in that.  He was clearly

24     recognisable.

25        Q.   And when you refer to a "cigarette pipe," are you referring to a

Page 8977

 1     cigarette holder, sir, sort of the old-fashioned cigarette holder that

 2     you insert a cigarette into the end of?

 3        A.   Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

 4        Q.   What did you understand his role to be at that time and over the

 5     next day or so?

 6        A.   He was, in fact, involved in planning and carrying out convoys to

 7     drive the Muslim population out of the enclave.  He was the logistics

 8     person in charge of organising the buses, trucks, transport.

 9        Q.   And do you recall from whom you received authorisation or

10     permission on the ground to escort that first convoy that you testified

11     about in Popovic?

12        A.   He was certainly present with the first convoy, Popovic, and so

13     was Mladic, and a vehicle was to ride in the front and at the rear.

14     Kosovic was present -- excuse me, it's not Popovic, it's Kosovic.  I see

15     that I misstated a name.

16        Q.   Okay.  And when you say that Mladic was present with the first

17     convoy, do you mean he was present with the first convoy in Potocari or

18     do you mean that Mladic accompanied the first convoy with you and Kosovic

19     or Kosoric?

20        A.   Kosovic accompanied the first convoy.  Mladic was present at the

21     departure.

22        Q.   And was Colonel Kosoric or Kosovic's presence any kind of factor

23     in the convoy's ability to cross through check-points as the convoy made

24     its way from Potocari to Tisca?

25        A.   I think that he was one of the organisers responsible for

Page 8978

 1     ensuring that the convoy would take place as quickly as possible.

 2     I remember that at a certain point we stopped because there was a

 3     conflict, there was shooting in the area, it was unsafe, and if

 4     I remember correctly, he was involved in resolving the matter as quickly

 5     as possible.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I see that I have just met my one

 7     hour estimate.  I have just a couple more questions.  With the Court's

 8     indulgence, if I could complete my examination.  I just have a couple

 9     more questions and topics along this line.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is really an improvement, Mr. Thayer.  Go

11     ahead, please.

12             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Now, in your experience, sir, during your tour of duty with

14     DutchBat, how easy was it to travel across VRS-held territory?

15        A.   It was virtually impossible for us to drive around freely.  A

16     route would be released through a clearance at certain times, and we were

17     not allowed to deviate from that.  Even if you had a clearance and a

18     section of time, even then there could be disturbances to that.

19        Q.   And in your experience, how often would you hit check-points?

20     Was it a common occurrence or an uncommon occurrence?

21        A.   I didn't drive around that much myself in the area where the VRS

22     might have set up check-points, but along the route with the refugees, in

23     Kladanj, we ultimately encountered a few check-points.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me:  On the way to Kladanj.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 8979

 1        Q.   Okay.  And on this trip, do you recall it being of any help, in

 2     terms of passing through those check-points, to have an officer such as

 3     this Colonel Kosovic or Kosoric with you?

 4        A.   Well, I think that he was the driving force.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Just a couple more questions, sir.  You testified about a

 6     Colonel Jankovic, who was present at the Fontana meetings.  Did anyone

 7     inform you what his role was at the time and was going to be over the

 8     next day or so?

 9        A.   If I remember correctly, at the first meeting in Fontana, Mladic

10     and Jankovic were present, and Mladic, at the start of the meeting,

11     introduced Colonel Jankovic as his support, somebody who had studied law

12     and was very capable of handling all matters in a legally appropriate

13     manner, and over the course of the days that followed, perhaps Mladic

14     wouldn't be present because he had other affairs to handle, and that from

15     then on, the command would be entrusted to Colonel Jankovic.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's just quickly look at some photographs.  If we could

17     have P624 -- and actually, let me withdraw that.  Let's not show P624.

18     Just for the record, Mr. President, I'm going to ask, as we've done in

19     previous cases, the witness to look at two photographs that are in P624,

20     which is the video stills book.  The Trial Chamber will remember that

21     that has the identities listed, so we are now going to show the witness

22     through Sanction the underlying photographs without the identifications

23     and I'm just going to ask Colonel Boering to make some identifications.

24             And we are first talking about page 27, just for the record, of

25     that P624, and Ms. Stewart will show us an image.  And it has the ERN

Page 8980

 1     0291-6181.

 2             Sir, do you recognise anyone in this photograph?

 3        A.   I recognise both General Mladic and Colonel Jankovic to the

 4     right, or, rather, to his left.

 5        Q.   Just to be clear, Jankovic is sitting to the left of General

 6     Mladic.  Is that what you just told us?

 7        A.   That's what I said.

 8        Q.   And if we may have the next photograph, and this is page 37 of

 9     P624, can you identify anyone in this photograph that you recall, sir?

10     And let's start from the left, moving towards the right of the image.

11        A.   I'm the one wearing the T-shirt there.  Next to me is the

12     spokesman for the women, Camila, and next to her, a representative of the

13     men, Nuhanovic, and at the head of the table, with the mustache, is the

14     man we mentioned earlier, Kosovic, who was chiefly involved in logistics.

15     And then you see some heads, mainly of the civilians working for the

16     police and the municipal authorities of Bratunac, if I remember

17     correctly.

18        Q.   Okay.  For the record, this is ERN 0291-6189.  Thank you, we are

19     done with that exhibit.

20             Now, you testified in Popovic that Mladic mentioned screenings or

21     separations of men, certainly you said during the third Fontana meeting,

22     if not earlier.  Did General Mladic mention any particular age range?

23        A.   He mentioned the age group of men from age 16 to age 60.

24        Q.   Okay.  And for my last question, Colonel, you spoke about, in

25     your witness statement that we had on the screen earlier, and this is at

Page 8981

 1     page 11 of the English and 10 of the B/C/S, just for the record, do you

 2     remember an encounter between General Mladic and the director of MSF?

 3     And we don't need to put her name on the record, but do you remember an

 4     encounter between General Mladic and that person in Potocari on the 12th

 5     of July?  And if so, can you just describe for the Trial Chamber the

 6     circumstances of that encounter.

 7        A.   Yes, I remember her.  I also remember what her envisaged role was

 8     and that she did not get that leeway at all from General Mladic.  I'll

 9     start by describing her role.  At the time, the transport, the buses and

10     trucks had arrived to evacuate the Muslim population, and the idea was

11     that first the injured and the sick would be evacuated, and she was a

12     strong advocate of that, in part at the request of Lieutenant-Colonel

13     Karremans, and that message she tried to convey to General Mladic was not

14     accepted at all.  She was told to mind her own business and to watch out.

15     She was basically threatened because things would be taken care of anyway

16     and her involvement wasn't requested and was certainly not necessary and

17     was definitely not appreciated.

18        Q.   And do you recall stating in your witness statement, and I quote:

19             "He said that she better keep out of it, otherwise he could do

20     anything to her he wanted"?

21             Do you remember General Mladic saying that to her?

22        A.   I was there, and he did, in fact, threaten her.  I remember that.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Colonel.  I have no further questions.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Sir, now Mr. Tolimir is

25     commencing his cross-examination.  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 8982

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

 2     like to greet all those present.  I would like for peace to reign in this

 3     house, and I hope these proceedings today end not as I will but as God

 4     wills.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to welcome the witness and thank

 7     him for testifying today.  Sir, we are going to start with the last

 8     question that Mr. Thayer put to you today.  He asked you on page 22, line

 9     18, were you present when General Mladic said that he could do anything

10     to her?  In your last answer, on page 22, line 15, you said, "I remember

11     he threatened her."  Can you please tell us, did he state the words that

12     Mr. Thayer used in his question, or do you just recollect that in some

13     way he threatened her?  Thank you.

14        A.   At this time, I certainly don't remember the exact words, but

15     they were definitely words with this clear intent.

16        Q.   Thank you.  On page 20, line 2, Mr. Thayer asked you whether

17     there was any help during crossing of the check-points.  You had an

18     officer with you like General Kosoric or Kosovic, I'm not sure which

19     surname he used.  My question is:  This colonel who was with you, by the

20     name of Kosoric or Kosovic, who was with you, I'm not sure, was it his

21     task also to take the column safely through the territory of Republika

22     Srpska?  Thank you.

23        A.   What the -- what would be done and where we were going was not

24     made clear to us at the start; who was responsible and who arranged

25     everything, that was the VRS under the aegis of Kosovic.

Page 8983

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did he organise that or was this agreed at the

 2     meeting in Fontana?  Are you able to tell this to the Trial Chamber?

 3     Arranged between the representatives of the army and the representatives

 4     of the Muslim civilian population that were going from Republika Srpska

 5     through the Republic of Croatia to the Federation.  Thank you.

 6        A.   At the meeting in Fontana, it was agreed that the population

 7     could leave the enclave safely and that this would happen under escort by

 8     DutchBat.  The exact details were not elaborated at that meeting, at

 9     least not as far as I remember.  When we returned from the meeting in

10     Fontana, I asked Lieutenant Colonel Karremans about the specifics of the

11     transport agreements.  This was not clear to him either.  And

12     subsequently, after consulting Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, I returned

13     to Fontana to sort out the details or obtain them so that we could focus

14     our approach.  Upon my arrival in Fontana, I encountered Momir Nikolic

15     and he said to me, "What are you doing here?  You have no business here.

16     Everything has been settled sometime ago.  Don't worry."  And by then,

17     the buses and trucks were already crossing Bratunac toward Potocari.

18             So to get back to your question as to exactly what was agreed at

19     the meeting in Fontana, yes, agreements were reached there but not very

20     clear ones.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Were you present at that meeting in Fontana, you and

22     Colonel Kosoric who left with the first group of the population that was

23     evacuating Srebrenica and going to Kladanj?  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In the discussions between the civilian

Page 8984

 1     representatives and the army, was the name of Kladanj mentioned at all?

 2     Thank you.

 3        A.   I was present at those conversations.  The interpreter, Petar,

 4     was seated a bit away from me, so I wasn't fully able to follow some of

 5     the discussion.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And was Mr. Nikolic present at the meeting, whom you

 7     refer -- to whom you refer in your statement?  This is 65 ter 0673.  Can

 8     we show the witness that statement, please.  You talk about that on page

 9     7, paragraph 3.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

11             MR. THAYER:  Just to clarify, that's 6703.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We can see that

14     statement.  Can we see page 7 now in the Serbian, and Aleksandar will say

15     the page number in English.  Thank you.

16             We can see paragraph 3.  I can see it, where you talk about how

17     you returned with Nikolic, and then at the end you say, "He was not able

18     to tell us how many buses would be available."  Perhaps you can look at

19     that part in the English and the interpreter then will translate it back

20     to you.

21             Can we show page 7 in the English, please, paragraph 3.  And we

22     can see that now.  This is that paragraph, the last paragraph where they

23     talk about 1400 hours.  Aleksandar, please, can you please tell us what

24     page that is?  Thank you.

25             So the question is did Nikolic tell you - I'm quoting - in the

Page 8985

 1     last sentence --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 3             MR. THAYER:  In English, it's the top of page 8 I think is where

 4     General Tolimir wants to be.  It's the top of page 8, referring to the

 5     12th of July.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 7        Q.   In the last sentence, the -- Nikolic told you, I quote, "He could

 8     not tell me how many buses would be available."

 9             Based on what you wrote in your statement, could we conclude that

10     Nikolic didn't know this either, just like you didn't, and Kosoric?

11        A.   No.  I would not assume that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you say what I quoted back to you, "He was not --

13     he could not tell me how many buses would be available"?  This is

14     something that I read from page 7, paragraph 3.  Thank you.

15             And can I ask the interpreter to read to you in Dutch the last

16     sentence on page 7, paragraph 3.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was translated, interpreted to the witness in

18     Dutch.  Whatever you are reading will be interpreted.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Well, you said that.  I didn't say it.  I mean, your answer now,

22     when you said that you would not assume that, is that now a contradiction

23     in terms of what you said earlier in your statement?  Thank you.

24        A.   I would say that it's not a contradiction.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.

Page 8986

 1        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... say that Nikolic did not

 2     know.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to clarify this.  It seems to be a

 4     confusion at the moment.  We see in this paragraph of your statement to

 5     the OTP of 1995, and I quote, "He could not tell me how many buses would

 6     be available."  And Mr. Tolimir wants to know if that is true that this

 7     man Mr. Nikolic couldn't tell you how many buses would be available or if

 8     you know anything about that.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived there and sought

10     Nikolic, no interpreter was present and it was very difficult to talk

11     with Nikolic.  In any case, he indicated that aside from how the

12     statement reads there, from what I remember, the number of buses -- that

13     he didn't know that, but that there would be buses and there would be

14     transport and, "Get lost because it's going to happen anyway now."

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you ask him about the number of buses

16     available for the transportation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked him, of course, for details

18     about buses and transport and other things, but he did not see any reason

19     to answer that.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I think that this is not really of such importance, so we will

24     move on to something else.  But I believe, and maybe you can help us,

25     that no one really knew at the time how many buses would arrive, and

Page 8987

 1     would it have been the case, in fact, that depending on the number of

 2     buses that did arrive, that number of civilians actually were put on the

 3     buses and sent away?  Thank you.

 4        A.   There was talk of several convoys until the population had been

 5     evacuated, and how long it would take, that depended on fuel and

 6     vehicles, and I remember that General Mladic had urged DutchBat to supply

 7     fuel because the operation would require a lot of fuel.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are running out of time.  We are

 9     over time already.  We must have our first break now.  I just wanted to

10     give you the opportunity to finish with this topic, but it's now

11     necessary to break.

12             But I would like to raise for a moment another question.  I was

13     told that we could sit tomorrow in the morning instead of in the

14     afternoon, because the courtroom is available, another trial has

15     cancelled the sitting of tomorrow.  Perhaps you can consider this

16     question during the break.  There would be one real advantage, we don't

17     know if we are coming under time pressure at the end of this witness and

18     his testimony again, and the availability of the interpreters is of high

19     importance, and perhaps we can then be sure to finish this witness

20     tomorrow, if we are sitting in the morning instead of in the afternoon.

21     We come back to that later.  Please consider that during the break.

22             We break now and resume 20 minutes past 4.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we first deal with the question of sitting

Page 8988

 1     tomorrow in the morning or in the afternoon.  What is the position of the

 2     parties?  Mr. Thayer?

 3             MR. THAYER:  We will be ready tomorrow morning, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And Mr. Tolimir?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as we are

 6     concerned, it is all right.  The only issue is that if a document has not

 7     already been entered in e-court, if we can be allowed to look them over

 8     overnight because they have already been used in the Popovic case.  And

 9     the only reason -- my only problem is the e-court because I have to take

10     a look at all the documents that will need to be entered in e-court or

11     those that have already been entered into e-court.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment I'm not quite sure what your

13     concern is but I think Mr. Gajic will assist you, providing you with all

14     necessary documents, in e-court or in hard copy, as it was in the past

15     already.  I think we --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  But I

17     have to read those documents in order to be able to formulate my

18     questions because I have to read them over again and see if I can

19     identify them.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand you very well, and that was the

21     reason why I raised this problem, because we are sitting in the afternoon

22     today and that would be a hearing tomorrow morning.  The problem is --

23     are you objecting the move of the hearing to the morning or not?  If you

24     are objecting, we have to consider your position.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I am not

Page 8989

 1     objecting at all.  I would like to help and be of assistance to the

 2     interpreters, who should be available here, and I will try to cooperate

 3     as much as I can.  The only problem that I might have is to do with the

 4     documents and the e-court.  That's all.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The advantage of sitting in the morning, as

 6     I already mentioned, that the interpreters will be here and we don't come

 7     again in this situation that we have to adjourn and call the witness

 8     again next year, with the interpreters.  If we are sitting in the

 9     afternoon, there is a clear time limit.  If we are sitting in the

10     morning, there would be a possibility for an extended sitting to finish

11     the examination of this witness.  Therefore, the Chamber is inclined to

12     sit in the morning instead of in the afternoon.

13             I take it that you are not objecting and therefore the Chamber

14     decides to sit in the morning and the preparations necessary for that can

15     be arranged.

16             Thank you very much.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of course.  Sorry, I didn't discuss it with you,

19     sir.  Are you available tomorrow morning?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that sounds like a reasonable

21     question to me.  I understand that it's more convenient to settle this.

22     I would have liked to have had a say in this, but I'll abide by your

23     ruling.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I apologise, not having asked you first.  Of

25     course it is a question of your availability.  Would it be possible for

Page 8990

 1     you to appear tomorrow in the morning at 9.00 in the courtroom or not?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is, but to spend an entire

 3     day here, that means that after the break we might continue?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, this is not the idea of this decision.  We

 5     want to finish with your examination in the morning session, until 1.45,

 6     but sometimes it happens that there are some additional questions,

 7     especially in re-examination by the Prosecution, that we can sit, for

 8     instance, half an hour longer, and that is only possible if we are

 9     sitting in the morning and not in the afternoon.  That's all.  We want to

10     finish in time, at the end of the morning session.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I understood.  Agreed.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             Mr. Tolimir, please continue your cross-examination.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   When we left off, we were talking about whether the

17     lieutenant-colonel or colonel who was with you was helpful when you

18     crossed over the territory of Republika Srpska, and my new question is:

19     Was his presence, the colonel's presence, Colonel Kosoric, was it of

20     assistance to you and to the convoy or not?

21        A.   He was in command of the convoy, and I observed.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Well, was it logical for him to be in command of it

23     while you were going through Republika Srpska?  Because he was not in

24     command while you were on the territory of the Federation.  Thank you.

25        A.   I don't understand what you mean by "the Federation."

Page 8991

 1        Q.   Well, I am referring to when you continued with the convoy on and

 2     on the line of separation the colonel who had accompanied you until then

 3     actually went back and you went on on your own.  Thank you.

 4        A.   I don't understand the question, but of course the person in

 5     charge of the convoy is responsible for it.  When we arrived to proceed

 6     to the line of separation, another individual was present, a liaison

 7     officer, I believe, of the Militia Brigade [as interpreted].  If

 8     I remember correctly, that was Major Sarkic, and I dealt with him there,

 9     no longer with Colonel Kosovic.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

11             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we have, I think, a little problem

12     with the transcript, which we have very frequently with this particular

13     word that I believe the witness used, and it's at line 32 -- sorry, page

14     32, line 4, there is a reference to the Militia Brigade and I'm pretty

15     confident that's not the word he used.  It's a difficult one to hear,

16     so ...

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Boering, you heard the comment on Mr. Thayer.

18     Could you clarify to which structure you were referring?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the militia

20     Brigade, that's a unit in the western -- that was present in the western

21     part, in the area where the convoy was, and from there I walked with the

22     refugees to Kladanj.  The Milici Brigade, that's a unit in a certain area

23     just as in Bratunac you have a Bratunac Brigade.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, that was the problem.  Now you were

25     referring to the Milici Brigade.  Was it always the Milici Brigade you

Page 8992

 1     were referring to or the Militia Brigade?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Milici.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That clarifies the

 4     situation.

 5             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On page 17, line 17, Mr. Thayer asked you to tell him what you

 9     knew about Colonel Kosovic, and on page 18, line 7, you said, "He

10     participated in planning, in the organisation of the convoy when the

11     Muslim population left, and he was in charge of organising the transport

12     and the logistics."

13             My question, based on what you said, is:  Are you sure of what

14     you have said, that this colonel did, the colonel that Mr. Thayer asked

15     you about?  Are you sure that that's what he was in charge of and that he

16     took part in organising the convoy and the evacuation of the civilian

17     population from Potocari to Kladanj?  Thank you.

18        A.   Yes.  I'm certain of that, and I believe that he was even

19     proposed for that by General Mladic.  He was introduced for that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  When was he proposed for that task by General Mladic?

21     Can you tell us, please?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps this is again a translation issue.

23     I realise that the witness corrected the word "proposed" into

24     "introduced."  Is that correct, Mr. Boering?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  And that

Page 8993

 1     introduction, from what I remember, took place at the meeting in the

 2     morning at 10.00 a.m., where the population representatives were present

 3     and General Mladic.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.  Can you tell us, please, whether during

 6     the meeting or before the meeting it was known what the decision by the

 7     representatives of the Muslims would be and what the decision would be

 8     that would issue or come as an issue out of this meeting that was held at

 9     Hotel Fontana?

10        A.   It was not my impression that the representatives of the Muslims

11     felt that they had the power to decide anything.  That's why, after the

12     first round, when only one individual was present, he felt too insecure

13     and needed support and found such support in two other persons in the

14     population.  In fact, the idea that they would be in a position to decide

15     anything, that was not relevant.  It was more an attempt to try to

16     provide the population that was present with the best possible

17     humanitarian aid.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us now who provided humanitarian aid

19     to the Muslim population?  Thank you.

20        A.   If we are talking about the situation of the local population,

21     then the prospects were indeed very grim; insufficient food, insufficient

22     medical supplies, and actual support was virtually non-existent because

23     convoys with aid provisions were denied permission.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Please answer my question.  You said that the

25     population received some humanitarian aid.  Who was it who provided

Page 8994

 1     humanitarian aid to the population, in a situation where they were left

 2     without anything, in order for them to get something?  Who was it who

 3     provided that?

 4        A.   The party providing aid was the UNHCR convoys.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I understand that you're referring to the situation

 6     before Potocari, but who was it who provided humanitarian aid that you

 7     referred to in the earlier -- in your earlier answer, when the population

 8     was in Potocari?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to refer you to the

10     real answer that Mr. Boering gave, page 34, lines 12 to 14.  He said, "It

11     was more an attempt to try to provide the population that was present

12     with the best possible humanitarian aid."  He was talking about the

13     attempt.  Perhaps that is the difference.  Please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

15     clarifying this.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Boering, please tell us who made these attempts, who made the

18     effort to try and provide humanitarian aid to these people and in the

19     situation in which you found ourselves with such a great number of people

20     in Potocari?

21        A.   Personally, I did not see any aid provisions entering after the

22     enclave fell.  Not from UNHCR, not from any other party.  The population

23     evacuated in the first convoy definitely did not have its primary needs

24     provided for upon its departure.  They were rushed into vehicles with a

25     lot of pressure, time-wise, and then left without any humanitarian aid.

Page 8995

 1     At least, I didn't see any.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.  Are you actually referring to specific

 3     humanitarian aid in the physical sense or are you referring to the

 4     situation where you found yourself in view of some several thousand of

 5     people in Potocari who needed help?  Thank you.

 6        A.   This question is not clear to me, but I'll try to answer it.

 7     This concerned the thousands of people who did not receive humanitarian

 8     aid at the time I was still there, and I'm referring to food, drinks,

 9     medical supplies, shelter, and whatever.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The Trial Chamber will decide on what it was that you

11     meant but my question to you is whether the UNPROFOR or the Muslims who

12     participated in the negotiations could do anything to resolve the

13     situation without the assistance of the VRS, the Army of Republika

14     Srpska, in order to assist the population in that situation.

15        A.   I think that if enough convoys with aid provisions could be

16     brought in, the primary needs would certainly have been alleviated.  And

17     I'm referring, for example, to the UNHCR.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether there were any agreements on the

19     movements of either humanitarian aid or UNPROFOR that had been signed by

20     the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.

21        A.   Well, I'm not aware of that.  I was only in touch with the UNHCR

22     staff member on site in the enclave.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we quickly take a

24     look at D77, that's a document that I drafted, and we will -- we have

25     already entered it in the e-court.  This is the agreement on the movement

Page 8996

 1     of these organisations.  So I would just like to show it briefly to the

 2     witness.  That's D77.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Have you ever seen this document that deals with the principles

 5     for the freedom of movement?

 6        A.   I have seen some documents, and we regularly talked about convoys

 7     and related issues, but at this time I certainly can't remember whether

 8     I read this document.  It's perfectly possible.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just take a look at (a), the first and second

10     line:

11             "UNPROFOR will notify the Serbian army authorities 48 hours in

12     advance of convoy movements and 24 hours for single vehicles."

13             Did you have such information?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Did you have such an

15     obligation?

16        A.   There were procedures for requesting convoys.  I'm aware of that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We can see that item 2 deals with movements, item 3

18     with control.  Can we now see the last page?  I want to put it to you

19     that this was also signed by UNPROFOR.  Thank you.  Can you see that this

20     movement was signed on the 31st of January, 1995?  Well, first of all,

21     were you in Srebrenica at the time?  And we can see that it was signed by

22     Brigadier General Brinkman and Major General Tolimir.  Can you see that?

23        A.   Yes, I can see that.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that all the provisions in this

25     agreement were an obligation both for the UNPROFOR and for the Army of

Page 8997

 1     Republika Srpska, in view of the fact that the agreement was signed both

 2     by General Brinkman and by myself?

 3        A.   This document indicates how to deal with convoys.  I remember

 4     that in practice requesting -- the convoy requests from us and from

 5     UNPROFOR was otherwise, and permission was regularly rejected for

 6     convoys, so convoys were not allowed to proceed by the VRS.  The VRS

 7     regularly withheld permission.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you give an example or can you give any reason to

 9     the Trial Chamber why the VRS would do that?  Because it says here that

10     if the Army of Republika Srpska denied passage to a convoy, they would

11     need to state their reasons for doing that.

12        A.   I think you'd need to ask the VRS, not me.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly ask you to answer this question:

14     Without the permission of Army of Republika Srpska, was any convoy able

15     to enter Srebrenica, regardless of whether it was an UNPROFOR convoy or a

16     convoy of some humanitarian organisation?  Thank you.

17        A.   I think permission was required, and clearance was necessary.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And this permission or clearance by the Army of

19     Republika Srpska for convoys to cross its territory, for them to escort

20     it through, was that -- did that constitute any kind of assistance in

21     getting the convoys and the aid to the population?  Did that count as any

22     kind of help?  Thank you.

23        A.   If a convoy could, in fact, proceed, then that certainly helped

24     provide humanitarian aid.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to say whether the passage of an oil

Page 8998

 1     pipeline is paid for through the countries of Russia, former Russia, the

 2     European Union, and so on?  Do those countries have to pay for that?

 3        A.   I don't understand this question, and I certainly haven't worked

 4     on that subject.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter kindly asks Mr. Tolimir to

 7     repeat his question.  We were unable to quite follow.

 8             MR. THAYER:  We have the answer, Mr. President.  I just want to

 9     note, from our perspective, if we have any hope of finishing tomorrow

10     sometime, the fewer questions that are of that nature, dealing with

11     issues like oil pipelines through other countries, the fewer of those,

12     the better.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are dealing with this situation

14     of the former Yugoslavia.  Please continue.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

16     you, Mr. President.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Are you aware that, during the war, gas was delivered to Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina from Russia, and do you know if UNPROFOR participated in

20     this endeavour?  Thank you.

21        A.   No.  I have no knowledge of that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that Russia provided gas free of charge

23     for Sarajevo and that Republika Srpska permitted the transport of that

24     gas on Russia's proposal?  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

Page 8999

 1             MR. THAYER:  Unfortunately, Mr. President, it's precisely what

 2     I stood up for, or about, a couple of minutes ago.  Unless

 3     General Tolimir can clearly and, hopefully, quickly show what relevance

 4     this has to any issue in this case, I would ask that these types of

 5     questions stop.  Otherwise, we are just going to be here forever on these

 6     types of unrelated topics.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Boering, do you recall the question?  Have

 8     you any knowledge on that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge of that.

10     Especially in the Srebrenica enclave, this was not an issue, didn't play

11     any role at all.  Nor did I see any gas or oil pipelines that extended

12     into the enclave.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, as you have the answer of the

14     witness, you should move to another topic.  He has no knowledge of this

15     area.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17     Mr. Thayer questioned the relevance.  If UNPROFOR provides humanitarian

18     aid to that population, why wouldn't the Army of Republika Srpska not do

19     the same?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand you, Mr. President,

22     but I'm talking about the relevance.  If the UNHCR is providing

23     assistance from their office, why wouldn't the Army of Republika Srpska

24     do the same?  But, Mr. President, I have been charged with not providing

25     humanitarian aid while the Army of Republika Srpska was providing

Page 9000

 1     humanitarian aid, and even the witness said that the evacuation was a

 2     type of humanitarian aid and without the participation of the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska could not have been realised at all.  And one side

 4     cannot provide assistance and then the other side can.  They either both

 5     did.  If UNPROFOR provided assistance, then so did Republika Srpska, the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I repeat:  You have got the answer

 8     of this witness, he doesn't have any knowledge about that, and you should

 9     move to another topic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, since you said that the evacuation of the population was

13     a form of humanitarian assistance, which was left without food and water

14     and there were a large number of these people in a small place, would not

15     humanitarian aid be considered to be offered by the party from whose

16     territory the population, with that party's assistance, was transferred

17     to a different territory?  Thank you.

18        A.   That's a possibility.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, a short moment.  We have to discuss a

20     question.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry for that.  Mr. Boering, please now provide

23     us with your answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The evacuation of the population to

25     a different area could be described as humanitarian aid, but subject to

Page 9001

 1     certain conditions; that it happens in consultation with the population

 2     and all agencies and institutions.  So I would not call this support,

 3     I would call it forced transport.  And there was definitely no

 4     consultation with other parties, for them to be provided with support

 5     upon their arrival.  So a unilateral effort at support is certainly not

 6     something that I would categorise as humanitarian aid.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.  We will have a look at some footage

 9     tomorrow, and we will see everything in the movie that you saw, but my

10     question in relation to everything that you've already seen during your

11     preparation for testimony is whether General Nicolai and Colonel

12     Karremans requested from the Army of Republika Srpska assistance in the

13     transport of civilians from Potocari to the Federation, or, actually, to

14     Kladanj, or not.

15        A.   That's perfectly possible.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Boering, in view of the fact that you were there,

17     I must ask you whether this is possible or whether this is definitely so,

18     since you were there, because later we are going to read to you the

19     transcript of the conversation between General Mladic and Karremans.  Can

20     we look at P1008, please, in the e-court, so that the witness could see

21     it.  I'm not looking for any surprises.  Thank you.

22             This is page 19 in the English and page 16 in the Serbian, of

23     this transcript.  This is the transcript of the video footage that we are

24     going to view tomorrow.  I'm going to quote to you what General Mladic

25     says:

Page 9002

 1             "What do you want?"  He puts this question to Karremans.  "You

 2     asked to meet.  Let me hear what you want."

 3             And then Colonel Karremans says:

 4             "I had a talk with General Nicolai two hours ago and also with

 5     the national authorities about the request on behalf of the population.

 6     It's a request, and I'm not in a position to ask for anything."

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We no longer have the

 8     original on the screen.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a transcript of what you're going to look at tomorrow,

11     because you said in your statement that this whole meeting was recorded.

12     On the basis of what General Mladic said and what Colonel Karremans said,

13     is it true - that's my question - that Colonel Karremans asked General

14     Mladic for assistance pursuant to a request by General Nicolai?  Because

15     he said he had spoken also with the national authorities about the

16     request on behalf of the population.  Thank you.

17        A.   There was some consultation between Nicolai and Karremans in the

18     course of preparing for the meeting with Mladic, how the resources would

19     be deployed, and that it was clear that the situation was hopeless, and

20     DutchBat felt responsible, it was clear that DutchBat felt responsible

21     for caring for all refugees.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to read to you what Karremans says:

23             "We, the command in Sarajevo, have said that the enclave has been

24     lost and that I've been ordered by the B and H command of UNPROFOR to

25     take care of all the refugees, and we are now approximately 10.000 women

Page 9003

 1     and children within the compound of Potocari, and the request of the B

 2     and H command, the command for Bosnia, is to negotiate about the

 3     conditions for the withdrawal of those people.  There are some women who

 4     are able to speak English and what I've heard from all the soldiers --"

 5     could you please pay attention now -- "who are now working to, let's say,

 6     ease the pain for the population, is that they are waiting for buses to

 7     leave the enclave."

 8             So on the basis of this, my question is:  Is Mr. Karremans

 9     informing General Mladic here about the kind of assistance they are

10     asking for or that is needed and what the population needs?  Thank you.

11        A.   Karremans is asking Mladic for support.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were the civilian affairs person and in

13     charge of contacts with the population, can you please tell us, how did

14     Karremans find out what the population was requesting?  Who prepared this

15     information?  Did he go and talk to the population or is this something

16     that he received from the commander service that works with the

17     population?

18        A.   In any case, during the preparations for this meeting, spokesmen

19     had been selected from among the population, and they were consulted.

20     There were three.  Whether they had a full mandate and knew what it was

21     all about, all three of them questioned that, but in any case, this was

22     the best solution.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So was Colonel Karremans presenting his own position

24     to General Mladic when he said to him, "Well, you wanted to meet, let's

25     hear."  That is the only thing that Mladic said and the rest was said by

Page 9004

 1     Karremans, so did he make his request on the basis of his own opinion or

 2     did he do that on the basis of the needs of the population and

 3     conversations with the civilian representatives?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I think the latter.

 5        Q.   If it's this other thing, that he said that on the basis of his

 6     conversation with the civilian population, did they then take part in the

 7     negotiations, in the conversations, and did he state their requests on

 8     the basis of what they said were the needs of the civilian population?

 9     Thank you.

10        A.   In any case, they were also involved in the conversations with

11     General Mladic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Before meeting General Mladic, did they see

13     Karremans?  Thank you.

14        A.   There was a preliminary meeting in the evening, before the one

15     the next day at 10.00 a.m., but that preliminary meeting wasn't very

16     long; there wasn't a lot of time.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In one of our next sessions we are going to speak

18     about these meetings.  I am only now asking you about the resolution of

19     the humanitarian catastrophe in which the population and the UNPROFOR

20     found themselves.  On page -- on a page of your 65 ter statement 06703,

21     page 5, paragraph 6, you talk about this first -- alleged first meeting.

22     Thank you.  I'm going to remind you, during the examination-in-chief,

23     Mr. Thayer asked you, on page 16 of the transcript, line 5, the

24     following:

25             "When you came for the negotiations at the Fontana, you saw the

Page 9005

 1     peacekeepers who were hostages."

 2             And then in line 13, on page 16, you gave a broader answer about

 3     how you spoke with that soldier and you said that you saw them all in one

 4     room.  Do you remember that?  Thank you.

 5             Can we show page 6 in the English, in the e-court, please.  5 in

 6     Serbian, 6 in the English.  Thank you.

 7        A.   Yes, I remember.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On page 16, line 13, you said there was a group of

 9     ten Dutch soldiers, they were sitting at a table, they were supposed to

10     get food.  They said that they were at the observation posts and that

11     they were brought to Bratunac unwillingly.

12             This is a quote from your testimony of today.

13             Then it goes on to say, Well, we were not able to move freely,

14     but we are going to quote that later.

15             All right, I'm going to put a question to you now.  I'm quoting

16     now a part of your statement that you gave previously, on the 28th of

17     September, 1995.  You say, on page 5 - we have it in front of us -

18     paragraph 6.  This is this large last-but-one paragraph, actually, line

19     2, where you say:

20             "I saw our fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in a

21     separate room in the hotel and briefly stopped to speak to them."

22             Thank you.  I have finished my quote.  My question is:  Were they

23     in separate rooms?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In English, it's the third paragraph on that page

25     and not the last-but-one, just to give the witness the opportunity to

Page 9006

 1     read it.  Now continue, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did you read this, Witness, sir?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Well, to be honest, it's rather obscure and fast.  In any case,

 6     I've read one section, which is page 5; and the second part, I can't find

 7     that.  I see only one section of text and I didn't see the second one.

 8     Or am I confused here?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is the third paragraph on the screen in

10     English.  It begins with the words, "In Hotel Fontana we were received by

11     Mladic."  Do you see that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the third section begins with "I saw our

14     fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in a separate room."

15             That is -- you touched the screen and this is the result of that;

16     it disappeared.  It will come back very soon.

17             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No problem.  That happens to nearly every

19     witness.  There we are again.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the question of Mr. Tolimir was:  Were they

22     in separate rooms?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think they were all in a single

24     room.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9007

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You said that there were ten of them.  Now, the hotel

 2     and the hotel room where you saw them, did it have ten beds?  Thank you.

 3        A.   No.  It was on the ground floor.  In Hotel Fontana, there were

 4     rooms where groups could eat, a separate room for small receptions or

 5     small groups could do things.  It was the ground floor.  It wasn't

 6     intended for sleeping but for festivities, and I think that this room was

 7     one where ordinarily small groups could sit and eat too.  I wasn't in a

 8     certain type of room that --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in a room where they were

11     seated at the table together.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Did you see them in a restaurant or in the rooms, the guest

14     rooms, the bedrooms?  Thank you.

15        A.   Hotel Fontana ground floor, an ordinary area where there are

16     tables and chairs and people can eat there.  There were definitely not

17     any beds.  That's how I remember it.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Is this portion of your statement, then, incorrect?

19     Because there you say:

20             "I saw our fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in

21     separate rooms in the hotel and I briefly stopped to speak to them."

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, perhaps it's a translation issue.

23     In the English text, it reads:

24             "I saw our fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in a

25     separate room in the hotel."  It is singular.

Page 9008

 1             Perhaps in the B/C/S, it's different, but the original English

 2     version speaks only about a room.  That means one room.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We were

 4     provided the translation by the OTP, and the interpreters can see it and

 5     perhaps they can assist us.  They can also see it on the screens and they

 6     can tell us how the second and third sentence of the third paragraph in

 7     English read, and in B/C/S does the second and third line in the

 8     penultimate paragraph.  I can't speak any English so I'm just reading

 9     from what I was provided.  Thank you.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In the B/C/S version,

11     indeed, it says, "In separate rooms ..."

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We received an explanation

13     that in the B/C/S version it is a plural, it means several rooms.  But

14     the English version is the original version signed by the witness, and

15     therefore, we should rely on that.  And Mr. Boering provided us with this

16     -- his knowledge on the top of his head.

17             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   And thank you, Mr. Boering.  Are you aware at all whether these

21     soldiers actually got any sleep in those three days?  Because you didn't

22     see them in their bedrooms.  Thank you.

23        A.   I didn't speak to them at length, but of course I asked how they

24     were doing and they indicated that, as far as food and drink was

25     concerned, they were being taken care of and that they could sleep but

Page 9009

 1     that they were definitely not -- they had no freedom of movement and they

 2     felt threatened.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.  Would you now please take a look at the

 4     paragraph above the one we quoted from.  It's a brief paragraph of three

 5     lines only.  The first word reads, "For."  And in B/C/S it's in four

 6     lines and it reads as follows:

 7             "At one point, we received a request from the hostages, members

 8     of the DutchBat, to meet with General Mladic in Bratunac.  He himself was

 9     the one who was seeking to have this meeting.  Sometime in the evening

10     I drove to Bratunac together with Karremans and Sergeant Major Raven

11     [sic]."

12             Now, my question to you is:  Was this, as far as you can recall,

13     the first meeting that you had with General Mladic or not?

14        A.   Yes, the first one.

15        Q.   Thank you.  A few moments ago, we saw the transcript where it

16     said I said that General Mladic said, "What is it that you want?  You

17     were asking for a meeting."

18             Now, would General Mladic have put that question or those

19     questions if he was the one who actually initiated this meeting?

20        A.   That doesn't sound logical.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Is it possible, do you allow for the possibility,

22     that you actually mistook this activity and this meeting for something

23     else, because all of the witnesses who appeared to testify here only

24     spoke about three meetings between Karremans and General Mladic in

25     Fontana, and we've had a number of witnesses here who testified to that.

Page 9010

 1     Is it possible that you may have made a mistake because, from what you're

 2     saying, it would appear that there were four meetings held and not three.

 3        A.   No.  There were three meetings.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you say that there were three meetings.  Would

 5     you please read through your statement for tomorrow and then, as you read

 6     through it, perhaps you can draw a conclusion as to the number of

 7     meetings.  There was a meeting, this one in the evening, then at 10.00,

 8     and then there was a meeting with interpreters, and then there was

 9     another one on the next day.  So that would mean four meetings.  "Yes" or

10     "no."  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I suggest that instead of giving the

13     witness homework to do tonight, that if General Tolimir is seriously

14     suggesting that somehow this witness statement or the witness has claimed

15     at any time that there were four meetings at the Hotel Fontana rather

16     than three, that he take the time to do it now.  And if that is indeed

17     the position of the Defence, that they believe that this witness at any

18     time has said that there were four meetings at the Hotel Fontana, then he

19     should just put that to the witness and deal with it.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir started to do that already, but to

21     avoid any more discussion about that, Mr. Boering, can you tell me again,

22     there were three Hotel Fontana meetings; is that correct?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many of them did you attend personally?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All three.

Page 9011

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  And

 3     I thank Mr. Thayer.  My apologies to the witness.  My intentions were

 4     good.  I didn't have any bad intentions, because I really read through

 5     his statement carefully.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   But now if we look at page 6, we see that the witness says in the

 8     first sentence, and I'm reading from the Serbian -- could we please have

 9     page 6 in the Serbian?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need both versions on the screen first.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, it's the same page, and

12     it starts with the word -- the paragraph starting with the words, "A film

13     crew ..."  Thank you, Mr. President.  In Serbian, that's the first

14     paragraph on the next page.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   It reads as follows:

17             "A film crew recorded the entire discussion."

18             My question is this:  I don't want to have arguments here, and I

19     am in no way disputing or doubting what you're saying, but perhaps

20     tomorrow we can see a video clip and then perhaps this will help you

21     refresh your memory and maybe then we will get out of this situation

22     easily.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is the question for the

24     witness?  We see the paragraph you are referring to on the screen.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9012

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your question to the witness?  The

 2     witness is now available for answering any questions.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Was the first meeting filmed?  Thank you.

 6        A.   I have to think long and hard.  Just a moment.  I saw film crews

 7     on multiple occasions.  At the specific moment, it's not rock solid in my

 8     memory, but I seem to remember that the first time I entered, that

 9     Mladic, Karremans, Rave were certainly present and I believe there was a

10     film crew there as well.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for your answer, Mr. Boering.

12             Would you now please take a look on the same page that you have

13     before you, and in Serbian that's the second paragraph, on the page that

14     I have before me, so would you look at the following paragraph.  There it

15     says the following:

16             "During the discussion, a pig was slaughtered outside."

17             Can you remember whether this pig was slaughtered on the occasion

18     when you had -- during the time when you had that first meeting with

19     Mladic?  Thank you.

20        A.   I think this was at one of the later meetings, but -- and I think

21     that a representative of the Muslims was present there as well and he

22     wasn't present at the first meeting.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you allow for the possibility that you may be

24     referring to something else here, because there were no Muslims present,

25     where you talk about the slaughtering of the pig?  Because if we look at

Page 9013

 1     the next paragraph -- could we have the next page in English, please, and

 2     leave the same page in Serbian.  In other words, could we have page 7 in

 3     English and 6 should remain in Serbian because it is already on the

 4     screen.  Thank you.

 5             Here, we see, in the next paragraph -- thank you -- well, I don't

 6     have the -- I don't have -- my screen is dead.

 7             Thank you.

 8             While we wait for the image to come up -- and I don't have the

 9     image on my screen, it's black completely.  Thank you.

10             Now, you say:

11             "When we returned to the compound, back at the compound, I chose

12     a man to act as spokesman for the Muslims.  I chose this particular man

13     because I knew that he had been the headmaster of the school in

14     Srebrenica.  I had occasionally chatted with him and had the idea that he

15     would be a suitable person to negotiate with Mladic."

16             My question:  Did you choose a person who would negotiate -- who

17     would participate in the negotiations after the first meeting with

18     Mladic?  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And during that first meeting, did you hear that pig

21     being slaughtered that I mentioned in the earlier paragraph, where you

22     said, "During our conversation, somebody slaughtered a pig outside"?  So

23     could the Muslims actually hear this slaughtering of the pig?

24        A.   As I said earlier, I thought that was at the second meeting, but

25     at this point it's not rock solid in my memory and I'll have to read my

Page 9014

 1     statement.  I haven't done that yet.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I proposed that, however, Mr. Thayer did not agree

 3     with that.

 4             Now, can we see the next paragraph, the one following the one

 5     that I just quoted:

 6             "At about 2300 hours I again departed for Bratunac together with

 7     Karremans.  At a Serbian check-point I was told that I should bring a

 8     spokesman with me.  I then drove back and fetched the spokesman."

 9             Did you set out for this second meeting at 2300 hours without a

10     spokesman?  And what is it, in fact, that you understand as "spokesman"?

11        A.   At the second meeting which we are referring to, the spokesman is

12     the person involved who ultimately came along.  That's the teacher.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I quoted from a paragraph a little earlier where you

14     mentioned that headmaster, but now let me ask you this:  Do you know how

15     this man was found in Potocari, when you say that you chose this man to

16     be the spokesman?  Were you the one who actually went out looking for

17     such person or was it someone else?

18        A.   Together with Sergeant Major Rave, I consulted who would be the

19     best spokesman, and in accommodating the Muslim population near the

20     compound, we noticed him and knew roughly where we could find him, and if

21     I remember correctly, I asked Sergeant Major Rave to go get him and bring

22     him to me so that we could prepare.  I don't remember whether

23     I accompanied him, whether we did that together, but that doesn't really

24     matter so much to me.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I agree with you, it's probably not important, but

Page 9015

 1     tell me, did Mr. Mandzic actually oppose being the representative who

 2     would talk with Mladic?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear the last portion

 4     of the question.  Could it be repeated, please.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the last

 6     portion of your question; the interpreter didn't catch it.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will repeat my whole

 8     question.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did Nesib Mandzic actually oppose being the representative who

11     would talk with Mladic?  Because you told us a moment ago that you and

12     Mr. Rave actually briefed him or prepared him for the meeting.

13        A.   I remember that we asked him and that after some deliberation he

14     consented, but it did bother him.  And that's why he asked for some more

15     latitude later on.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Are you referring that he needed some more time to

17     think it over or that he needed some space in order to consult with

18     someone else?  So what do you mean exactly by "latitude?"

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Or "space" in Serbian, interpreter's note.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wanted to have more people

21     present in the consultation so that he would not be the only one to

22     decide.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we need the second break now.  Sir,

24     we must have the second break.  We will resume at quarter past 6.00 for

25     the final session of the day.

Page 9016

 1                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue your

 4     cross-examination.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could

 6     I ask e-court to return this page 6 that we had in the Serbian, that we

 7     were looking at before the break, and that is page 8 in the English, so

 8     that the witness can see what we are going to be discussing.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I'm not mistaken, this is 65 ter 6703.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I forgot

11     to say that.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We always can cooperate in these situations.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Boering, please, when we look at this statement of yours,

15     there is a certain rearrangement of activities from one section to

16     another, or from one part to another, and there are some things that are

17     illogical and you said that yourself.  It's not logical for Mladic to

18     say, "All right, what would you -- what do you want?"  And then for you

19     to say, "What do you want?"  So I'm asking you this:  All the meetings

20     that you and Karremans and Mr. Rave had with General Mladic, were all of

21     those meetings recorded with a camera?

22        A.   At this time, I don't know that.  Often they were, but whether

23     they always were, I can't say.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm not sure if you have the right

25     page in English on the screen.

Page 9017

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm just

 2     going to look at that now.  We are looking at the place where it says,

 3     "Around 2300 hours."  This is the third paragraph in English.  So this is

 4     the paragraph that I wanted the witness to look at.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Witness, since you say you are not sure, can you please tell us

 7     whether, on the 10th or between the 11th and the 12th, did you have two

 8     or three meetings with Mladic?  And would this help you to remember?

 9        A.   I had three meetings, at least meetings where I was present, with

10     General Mladic.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Was anyone else present with you, of the UNPROFOR

12     representatives, at these three meetings?  Could you tell us who else was

13     with you from UNPROFOR at the meetings?

14        A.   If you're referring to UNPROFOR DutchBat, Karremans was present

15     at all meetings.  And Sergeant Major Rave was present certainly at two of

16     the three meetings.  The third, I'd have to read up on that.  It's

17     possible that he was present at all three.  I almost think he was.  And

18     if you are referring to UNPROFOR, you could say that the interpreter

19     Petar, who was paid by UNPROFOR, was present as well.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you remember who was with you at the first

21     meeting with General Mladic?  Thank you.

22        A.   Yes.  At the first meeting, I was with Rave and Karremans, and

23     Mladic had some people with him.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Was this meeting recorded with a camera?  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the witness has answered this

Page 9018

 1     question before the break.  He was not sure about that and then he tried

 2     to think about that, and he provided us with an answer already.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since

 4     the witness already answered, I'm just going back to say that on page 6

 5     he said that a film crew or a TV crew recorded the whole conversation.

 6     This is why I'm asking, because then it seems that there were four

 7     meetings.  With the best of intentions, I would like to clarify the

 8     situation so that we could discuss this.  It's not my aim to compromise

 9     or discredit the witness.  Anyone can fail to remember the chronological

10     sequence of things.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment, we have a problem with the

12     transcript.  I don't see Mr. Tolimir speaking in e-court -- in LiveNote,

13     sorry.  Mr. Thayer?

14             MR. THAYER:  Again, Mr. President, I would like to know --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have the transcript in LiveNote still working

16     but it's stopped in e-court.  Mr. Thayer.

17             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I would like to know, other than

18     General Tolimir's saying so, or perhaps his confusion, what his basis is

19     for again suggesting that there were four meetings, or that this witness

20     somehow has ever said that there were any more than three meetings.

21     Trial transcript is before the Trial Chamber.  General Tolimir knows that

22     this witness has testified in two prior trials and has given uncountable

23     statements, all of which he said there are three meetings.  That has

24     never been in doubt.  The witness has stated on a number of occasions

25     today that there were three meetings.  So unless we get right down to

Page 9019

 1     whatever is behind General Tolimir's insinuation that there are four

 2     meetings, we are wasting time.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you tell us what is the

 4     background of your questioning in this respect?  The witness indeed -

 5     I agree with Mr. Thayer - stated several times that he took part in three

 6     Hotel Fontana meetings, and as far as he is able to recall, they were all

 7     filmed by a crew.  Only in respect of the first meeting he was not quite

 8     sure if that is really the case.  What is the problem or the background

 9     or the purpose of your questioning?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

11     purpose of my questions is that the witness said that in the evening on

12     the 11th, he was with General Mladic at the Hotel Fontana.  Then he said

13     that Rave, Karremans, the witness, and Mr. -- and the spokesperson were

14     there.  Then he said again that they were there on the 10th.  This is the

15     third meeting.  And then he said he didn't remember whether a meeting was

16     recorded or not.  If he doesn't remember it being recorded, and says that

17     the observers scheduled that meeting, I wanted to clear up whether it was

18     the first meeting when General Mladic asked Karremans what it was all

19     about.  If we don't clarify this, then you will see that there will be a

20     problem later.  I can leave it like this and you can judge the weight.

21     I'm not -- it is not my intention to compromise the witness.  I can help

22     him.  If Mr. Thayer thinks that we can resolve this matter by aggravating

23     the situation, I can move on to something else and then later you can

24     make your own judgement on this matter.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see Mr. Thayer to aggravate the

Page 9020

 1     situation.  Nobody is in that position.  We just want to clarify the

 2     situation.  May I, to avoid further discussions on that, just ask the

 3     witness:  Do you stand by that, that there have been three meetings in

 4     the Hotel Fontana and that you attended all three meetings?  I already

 5     asked you that.  And if you recall that there were -- was always a team

 6     of people filming the meetings.  Could you clarify that a last time,

 7     please?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that there were three

 9     meetings.  I remember, as you indicated, seeing the film crew several

10     times.  Whether they were present at all three, I assume they were.

11     Certainly at the first, and also later, they were present.  Certainly at

12     the third meeting, because I remember that a Srebrenica sign and a

13     register of marriages was presented to the lady present, to show, "I know

14     when you were married," and that's been established on record.  As for

15     the second time, whether there was a film crew present, that was that

16     evening at 11 p.m., it's possible.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you certain that the second meeting was in

18     the evening at 11.00?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  10.00, 11.00.  In the

20     evening, yes.  And the third meeting was the next day at 10.00 a.m.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.  Before you do

22     that, let me put a last question to the witness:  Can you tell me, have

23     you ever heard about a fourth meeting in the Hotel Fontana, between

24     UNPROFOR representatives and General Mladic and his officers?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the third meeting, I left the

Page 9021

 1     enclave fairly quickly and, of course, there were meetings afterwards in

 2     Fontana later on, with other UNPROFOR people as well.  So of course there

 3     were meetings after that too.  That might explain the misunderstanding.

 4     General Nicolai and others were present there as well, but I was not

 5     there.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have again a problem with the transcript, but

 7     we can follow in LiveNote.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I'm now asking the witness:  On the

11     basis of all that has been said, are you sure that Mladic asked you to

12     come to the meeting or was it what we saw earlier when Mr. Mladic -- or

13     General Mladic said, "What is it?  You wanted to see me."  So what was

14     it?  Was it the way you described it on page 6, paragraph 5, of the

15     Serbian version, and on page 6 of the English version, paragraph 3?

16        A.   I remember that this issue came up at previous testimony as well,

17     and at the time I indicated that I was not certain.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Since you are not certain, would you be certain if

19     you were to look at all three footage -- all the footage of all the three

20     meetings, from the beginning to the end?  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, this is really speculation.  How can

22     the witness say, "I will be certain if I see that and that"?  You should

23     wait with this question, after putting this to the witness, by showing a

24     video.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  There is

Page 9022

 1     no need to defend the witness from me.  We are going to show that

 2     tomorrow.  We will not be going into that today.  We are going to move to

 3     a new group of questions and then the witness could reply to this matter

 4     tomorrow.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I can't accept this statement.  I'm

 6     not defending a witness.  This is really not correct to put that on the

 7     record.  Nobody will be defended except you.  You are the accused and you

 8     may defend yourself, with the assistance of your team.  The question was

 9     different.  The question -- your question was not appropriate to say,

10     "Will you be certain after having seen something"?  This is speculation.

11     This is not an appropriate question to the witness at this point in time.

12             Please carry on.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm not

14     going to be speculating anymore.  Since I'm the only problem here and no

15     one else, I'm go be leaving this for tomorrow after we watch the footage.

16     Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My next question for you is this:  According to your information,

19     who organised the meetings between General Mladic and Colonel Karremans?

20     Thank you.

21        A.   Well, the second and third meetings were clearly organised at

22     General Mladic's request.  The first, as I've explained earlier, is

23     unclear to me.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell us who invited the people and

25     escorted them to the meeting?  The first meeting is what I'm thinking of,

Page 9023

 1     since you're not sure.

 2        A.   Conceivably the first meeting was arranged by Petar or our own

 3     DutchBat soldiers that had been taken hostage, and as for being escorted

 4     to the first meeting, we drove ourselves in two cars.  We had no escort.

 5     We drove ourselves.  And en route to that meeting we were stopped at some

 6     points and we explained where we were headed and they let us pass after

 7     some consultation.  We certainly were not escorted on the way there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, since your testimony is very important about

 9     whose initiative the meeting was, because many things depend on this,

10     it's very important for us to know certain things, so it's not a good

11     idea to say that I'm not sure about something or not so, but you --

12     that's why I'm putting these questions to which you gave the answers that

13     you gave.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, no testimony of a witness would be

15     helpful for your purpose or anybody's purpose if the witness would tell

16     you something which seems to be certain if the witness is not in a

17     position to say that.  If he says, "I'm not sure about that," you must

18     take it like that.  The witness is sitting here and is trying to, in most

19     cases, trying to help you with what he has in mind and what he recalls.

20             Please don't judge in that way about the answer you have got from

21     the witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I am not judging

23     anything.  I was just saying that, in view of his answers, that I'm not

24     going to put any more questions about that.

25             I would like the e-court now to show page 3 of this statement

Page 9024

 1     that we are looking at in the Serbian, paragraph 1, and it's probably

 2     page 3 in the English, but it's a different paragraph.  When I look at

 3     the text, I will be able to tell where it is.  Thank you.  We can now see

 4     it on our screens in both versions.  On page 2 in the Serbian

 5     translation, you started saying something about a person called Sarkic

 6     and then you go on to say that:

 7             "He seemed to be friendly, but I heard that he was an unreliable

 8     person who was trigger-happy or hungry for combat.  I heard that from my

 9     predecessor.  I had very little occasion to meet with him.  I only spoke

10     with him in January and June [as interpreted].  The area where he was

11     deployed was not easily accessible and it was constantly in wartime

12     conditions.  There were Muslim fighters there and Serbs and Muslims

13     exchanged fire all the time."

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not have the

15     original on the screens.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is on the screen as the second paragraph which

17     begins with, "Sarkic" and it was quite fine, the interpretation, without

18     one word.  "I only spoke to him in January and July," I can read on the

19     screen it was interpreted or quoted by Mr. Tolimir, I don't know that, as

20     June instead of July.  Just for the record.

21             Mr. Tolimir, continue, please, or put a question to the witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness, can you tell us why it was, what was the reason, that

25     you had such infrequent contacts with Mr. Sarkic?  Was it because of his

Page 9025

 1     personality or was it because he was in an unaccessible area?  Thank you.

 2        A.   We had no contact with the Milici Brigade at all, and this was in

 3     part because we had insufficient access to that area, because there were

 4     borders within the enclave known as the Bandera Triangle.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Was he within the so-called Bandera Triangle or

 6     outside of it on the other side of the separation line, the side where

 7     the Serbian army was deployed?  Thank you.

 8        A.   Yes.  He was on the Serb side.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, since you mention Bandera Triangle, tell us why

10     it was that you couldn't go through or you couldn't cross over Bandera

11     Triangle and go about your business.  Thank you.

12        A.   We were more limited in our operations there.  We had some

13     observation posts but we did not have true freedom of movement there.

14     This was because of the Muslim leader, Zulfo, who was there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain to this Trial Chamber why Zulfo had

16     prohibited you from moving in the area of responsibility of his brigade

17     and within the so-called Bandera Triangle?

18        A.   He wanted to handle things independently, and tolerated no

19     supervision or control, and he didn't want this from Naser Oric or, later

20     on, from anybody else in Srebrenica.

21        Q.   Thank you.  In view of what you've just said, can you tell us

22     whether you had informed the UNPROFOR command and the Main Staff that you

23     did not have access to the area of responsibility -- to the area of

24     responsibility of the brigade, the 281st Brigade?  Thank you.

25        A.   Well, first, it was not my job to report that.  That was up to my

Page 9026

 1     commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, and he most certainly did report

 2     that.  And subsequently, we tried to patrol more extensively in that

 3     area.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Under the agreement, it was your task to monitor the

 5     demilitarisation of the area of responsibility -- of the zone.  Did that

 6     imply that you should have the freedom of movement throughout the entire

 7     safe area?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The accused used the word

 9     "zone."

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's what it meant, and

11     that's why the decision was taken to patrol more in that area.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened once you

14     set off on your patrols?

15        A.   Yes.  At a certain point one of those patrols was stopped and

16     prevented from proceeding.  We weren't allowed to go any further.  And

17     there was no opportunity to return either, so it was a type of hostage

18     situation.  Concerning the group that was patrolling there, that is.  And

19     then I drove there in a vehicle to try to solve the problem, and in the

20     end, after a few days, we were free to continue our duties.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.  I have a very small

23     question.  In the document that we have on the screen, on page 3,

24     regarding Zulfo, you say that you had no contact with him and that he

25     worked in a region or zone called the Bandera Triangle.  Where does this

Page 9027

 1     name come from?  Do you know why it's called the Bandera Triangle?  Who

 2     came up with the word in the first place?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I think it was the

 4     region.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine.  So far, no witness has been

 6     able to tell us where the name came from.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In lines 1 through 5, on page 67 of today's transcript, just a

11     moment ago, you said that later on you tried to conduct the patrols.  Can

12     you tell us whether you were able to conduct patrols in the Bandera

13     Triangle and did you have access to it at all or was it a no-pass zone?

14        A.   In the efforts to gain extensive access, this patrol that we just

15     mentioned was en route, and was blocked.  So there were means to use

16     certain roads but not all areas were accessible, as far as I can

17     remember.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Since you say that you didn't have access to all

19     areas, could you tell us which places you had no access to and where you

20     could not send your patrols?  Thank you.

21        A.   In the border region, there were some observation posts where we

22     could go, we could get to them by roads that we were allowed to move on.

23     And as for knowing for certain how far you could deviate from those

24     paths, I don't have that information, but it was a problem.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether, in the Bandera Triangle, it

Page 9028

 1     was you who were being checked or did you actually carry out checks on

 2     Zulfo's men in Bandera Triangle?

 3        A.   You could say, on the border of the enclave, from the observation

 4     posts, we could do our work.  There were areas where we were not in a

 5     position to perform true inspections.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether you know why you were not

 7     allowed to go into certain areas, as you've just told us a moment ago?

 8     Thank you.

 9        A.   It may have related to smuggling efforts or possible breakouts

10     from the enclave.

11        Q.   Thank you.  When you say that this had to do with smuggling, do

12     you mean that there was drug smuggling?  Was there smuggling of people or

13     weapons?  What was it that you actually monitored?  Thank you.

14        A.   Definitely smuggling of arms.  That was certainly monitored.

15     Smuggling of goods?  Well, I haven't seen a lot of reports on the actions

16     against that but, of course, due to lack of resources, there were

17     smuggling routes to bring goods inside, supplies.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If there was weapons trafficking there, do you know

19     what measures UNPROFOR took in order to enable the monitoring of the area

20     where possible arms were being trafficked?  Thank you.

21        A.   Well, that's what we used the observation posts and patrols for.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, did the UNPROFOR command in Tuzla,

23     Sarajevo and Zagreb know, were they informed, that you did not have

24     access to all areas within the demilitarised zone in Srebrenica?  Thank

25     you.

Page 9029

 1        A.   I think that they were definitely informed about the

 2     hostage-taking that occurred in the Bandera Triangle.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether the Security Council, the UN

 4     Security Council, was aware of the problem?

 5        A.   No.  I have no idea about that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether your command proposed that the

 7     matter be resolved at joint meetings between the warring parties that

 8     were being held in Sarajevo?  Thank you.

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know why the VRS was never aware of that and

11     yet it was one of the parties' signatories of that, just as was the

12     Muslim side and the UNPROFOR?  And I'm referring here to the agreement on

13     demilitarisation.

14        A.   What I remember is that I most certainly did speak with Major

15     Nikolic about it, that we had been detained in the Bandera Triangle, so

16     the VRS knew about it.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you speak with Nikolic, and did you tell him that

18     you had absolutely no access to certain areas within the triangle and

19     that there was some weapons trafficking going on there?  Thank you.

20        A.   No.  That was a routine topic of conversation raised by Major

21     Nikolic, and we would mention what we were doing to prevent this.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you remember when Major Nikolic mentioned that,

23     and what did you do in order to overcome that or resolve that situation?

24        A.   Well, that undoubtedly happened several times, and that was not

25     part of my mandate or my operations.

Page 9030

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it is 7.00.  We have to adjourn for

 2     the day.

 3             Sir, you will be so kind to come to the Court, to the Tribunal,

 4     again tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom to continue your

 5     examination.  Thank you very much.

 6             We adjourn.

 7                       --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m., to be

 8                           reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of December

 9                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.