Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9875

 1                           Tuesday, 15 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and

 6     listening to us.

 7             First of all, I would like to inquire if the situation with the

 8     documents tendered by the Prosecution with Witness Dr. Hagland is solved.

 9     There are three categories of documents.  The first group are those which

10     have a translation; the second group are those the parties agree that

11     there's no translation necessary; and the third group are those we are

12     waiting still for the translation.

13             Is it possible to get an update so that we have it clear on the

14     record.

15             Mr. Thayer.

16             MR. THAYER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon to

17     Your Honours; good afternoon to the Defence and everyone.

18             I believe we can provide the Trial Chamber with some information.

19             There -- with respect to the category 2 exhibits on which the

20     parties -- oh, let me just -- let me start over again.

21             With respect to the category 3 exhibits, awaiting translation,

22     the parties are waiting translations on the following exhibits which the

23     Defence has identified a desire for translation.  So the following

24     exhibits the Defence has told us they want translations of:  That is,

25     P01307, 1308, 1309, 1311, and 1360.  Our understanding is, with respect

Page 9876

 1     to any other exhibits in connection with Dr. Hagland for which there is

 2     not currently a translation, the Defence has no objection to those being

 3     admitted without a translation.  So it's simply the five exhibits I just

 4     enumerated which the Defence has brought to our attention and for which

 5     we are awaiting translation currently.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  They are marked for

 7     identification, pending translation.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, we need a clarification in relation

10     to P1360.  Was that correct, that you said P1360?

11             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  P01360.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was a document we didn't receive into

13     evidence.  It was marked but not admitted.  That was, in our

14     understanding, no translation issue.

15             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  And my understanding is that is a document

16     which the Defence is requesting a translation of in order for it to be

17     admitted.  That they -- they are insisting on a translation for that

18     document.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber will check that with the Registry.

20             MR. THAYER:  That's our understanding, is we're awaiting a

21     translation of that.  And it was MFI'd for that reason.

22             Hold on, I'm about to speak with the oracle.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told by the Registry, on page 9119,

Page 9877

 1     lines 21 to 22, Mr. McCloskey indicated:  We don't need that.  And it was

 2     not tendered.

 3             MR. THAYER:  We've come to the same conclusion, Mr. President.

 4     My understanding is that the Defence still wishes to have a translation

 5     of that exhibit for their purposes.  So we can take it off the list I

 6     gave you, but I think pursuant to the Defence request it's still in the

 7     pipeline to be translated and present in e-court for future purposes, if

 8     any.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This is a different issue.

10     And we will check the record and the numbers again and to make clear that

11     we have all matters solved in this relation.

12             The witness should be brought in, please.

13             We go into closed session to enable the witness to enter the

14     courtroom.

15                           [Closed session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, good afternoon, sir.  I have to remind you

25     that the affirmation to tell the truth still applies today.

Page 9878

 1             Mr. Thayer has some more questions for you for exactly

 2     18 minutes.

 3             Even three more minutes left for the examination-in-chief than

 4     you indicated yesterday, Mr. Thayer.  Please go ahead.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And if I don't use those,

 6     do those three minutes roll over into my next witness?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.  We count them for the time you have exceeded

 8     your own estimation with other witnesses in the past.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           WITNESS:  PW-013 [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

13        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   You told us yesterday about crossing the Drina using rubber

16     tubes.  Do you know whether other people who crossed the Drina River

17     during this same time-period, do you know what other means they may have

18     used to cross the river, other than rubber tubes like yourself?  Do you

19     know what other crafts or devices or ways they got across the river?

20        A.   They said in the camp that they had created a raft made of wood

21     and then they managed to get across with that.  But I saw from the cliffs

22     the next day when I went out to look off the cliffs that there was some

23     shelling in the canyon.  Shells were falling into the lakes.  And I

24     managed to get across using the inner tubes of truck tires.

25        Q.   And who or what was that shelling directed at, sir?

Page 9879

 1        A.   I wasn't close enough to see.  But I could see down in the Drina,

 2     I saw the shells, and I heard the echoes of shells down in the canyon.

 3     But I wasn't close enough to see where exactly the shells were landing or

 4     what exactly was going on because I was on a hill called Zvijezda.  I

 5     think that's what it's called.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And in your group, were there any soldiers, or was it all

 7     civilians?  Was it mixed?

 8        A.   We were all civilians.

 9        Q.   And when you crossed, was anyone armed?

10        A.   Nobody in my group was armed.  There was seven of us.  And when

11     they brought us up to that other group of about 150 people who had

12     already been captured, none of them were dressed in uniforms.  They

13     didn't have any weapons.  They checked us, they searched the back-packs.

14     We threw everything on the ground, on a tarpaulin, and there were no

15     weapons there.  I was able to see that because I was throwing my own

16     things on that tarpaulin.

17        Q.   And within your group and from your experience in the two camps

18     in Serbia, meeting others who had crossed the Drina during this time,

19     tell us a little something about the composition of these groups that

20     went across.  Were they only military-aged men crossing; were there young

21     boys; were there elderly men; were there any women who crossed the Drina

22     during this period of time?

23        A.   There was one woman.  I don't think there were children.  There

24     were older children, 14 years old.  My nephew was among them, for

25     example.  And there were a few of those young youths.  And this is

Page 9880

 1     difficult for me to say:  There were some people who were mentally

 2     disabled.  There was a boy in the camp with me who had difficulty

 3     speaking, and he had a very hard time because of it.  He would always get

 4     beaten whenever he went to the toilet.  He was also under-age.

 5        Q.   Now, you've referred to, previously, being held on the Serbian

 6     side in two camps, and those were Sljivovica and Mitrovo Polje; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.  I spent one night in Sljivovica.  Actually, two

 9     days; I'm not exactly sure.  But I was called out and I was afraid

10     because I thought that they were going to execute me.  However, they

11     singled out a group of about 450 men and they took us to Mitrovo Polje,

12     which is in the south of Serbia.  And that's where the second camp was.

13        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber the date of your final release

14     from the camp.

15        A.   The 22nd of January, 1996.

16        Q.   And at some point were you reunited with your family, sir?

17        A.   I was reunited with my family in 1996 after I'd spent six months

18     in America with the assistance of UNHCR and ICRC.  I spent some time with

19     a family in the US.  And as I was unable to connect with my family from

20     America, I had to go back to Bosnia.  I didn't know what the situation

21     was like, whether the state of war was still on and so on.  But then I

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9881

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As we are in open session, I think we need a

 4     redaction of the last part of the answer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, when you were reunited with your family, did your wife

 7     tell you about her experience being transported out of Zepa?

 8        A.   Of course we talked about how we survived that period.  She told

 9     me about how they managed to reach the free territory in Zepa.  She said

10     that they were transported in trucks and buses.  And that they weren't

11     escorted either by UNHCR or by the ICRC.  And that on their way there

12     they were intercepted by the Chetniks, they were searched.  Their

13     valuables were taken, if anyone had any.  They were threatened.  And she

14     said that in one place - I can't remember where exactly - she said they

15     were stoned.  She said that the locals had gathered, stopped the truck,

16     and then they were stoned.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   Then they were offloaded in Tisca, which is some 6 kilometres

19     from the free territory, and they had to walk.  The trip there was quite

20     chaotic.  They were intercepted again.  They were tired, hungry,

21     frightened.  That's what she told me.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, if we may go into private session for

24     a couple of minutes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

Page 9882

 1                           [Private session]

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Page 9883

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21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             MR. THAYER:  And if we could stay with the --

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

25             MR. THAYER:  If we could just stay with this map.

Page 9884

 1        Q.   Sir, you mentioned some other locations in your testimony.  You

 2     mentioned taking your family -- oops.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, the map back on the screen.

 4             MR. THAYER:  That was P104, page 13, if we need it back.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There it is.

 6             MR. THAYER:

 7        Q.   Okay.  Sir, you mentioned taking your family to a particular

 8     location where other people had brought their families before they were

 9     transported out of the enclave.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber the name

10     of that location where you said good-bye to your family?

11        A.   I left my wife and children in Stitkov Do.  That's close to Zepa.

12     Not in the centre because I couldn't go there.  Chetniks had already

13     entered Zepa.  They were with the UNPROFOR.

14             Just a moment, I can't see it here.  Maybe if you could zoom

15     it in.

16        Q.   If the -- if it's not --

17        A.   Here, on this location.

18        Q.   Okay.  And if you look -- if you look just a little bit below

19     where you've drawn that circle, sir, do you see the words Stitkov Do?  If

20     you just go down maybe an inch on your computer screen.

21        A.   Ah, yes, here it is.

22        Q.   Now I just want to ask you:  Is the area that you just circled,

23     around the two words Stitkov Do, where you dropped your family off, or

24     did you drop your family off north of Stitkov Do, I guess, is what we

25     just need to know?

Page 9885

 1        A.   Right here.  No, no, right at Stitkov Do.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please put an X next to that circle

 4     where you left your family.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] X, Stitkov Do.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it clear on the record, I think.

 7             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender

 8     this Exhibit.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as an exhibit.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P104 marked by the witness

11     for the second time shall be assigned Exhibit P1816.  Thank you.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   Now, sir, in the just minute or so we have left, can you describe

14     for the Trial Chamber as best as you can the emotions and the thoughts

15     that you and, in particular, your wife had as you were making the

16     decision to leave her and your family there and for you to separate from

17     them.

18             Can you tell the Trial Chamber what -- what were you thinking,

19     what were your emotions at that time?

20        A.   It was extremely difficult for me.  I left them there, and my

21     hope was that they would survive.  90 per cent, that they would survive.

22     I thought that the Red Cross would be with them and that the UNPROFOR

23     would transport them.  But I also had doubts.  It was very, very

24     difficult for me.  I went back to Poljanice and I saw the footwear of

25     other people there, and it was really difficult for me.

Page 9886

 1             I went back during the night.  I was afraid of the shelling,

 2     because it's an open plain on the road towards Poljanice.  I also didn't

 3     want to run into the Chetniks.  So during the night, in the area of

 4     Vratar, you could see the houses burning.  And when I was with my wife in

 5     Stitkov Do, I couldn't down to Zepa because I heard that the Chetniks

 6     were already in Zepa together with UNPROFOR.  That's why I didn't bring

 7     my wife any further.  That's where they were left, they spent the night

 8     there, and then they went down there and found a completely chaotic

 9     situation there.  There were Chetniks with trucks, and they were loading

10     them into the trucks and so on.

11             That same evening or, rather, during that night, maybe it

12     wouldn't be so difficult for me if I hadn't seen the houses burning up

13     from the Pribijotci [phoen].  Also on the left side the houses were

14     burning, towards Vrata; that's the name of the village.  And then there's

15     a hill called Stup close to Zepa on the left side.  I returned, and I was

16     in the hope that they would survive.

17        Q.   And why did you not stay with -- stay with them and try to leave

18     on the convoy, sir?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this would be your last question.

20             MR. THAYER:  And it is, Mr. President.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that would be a suicide.

22     Later on I heard that the group that was negotiating with the Chetniks,

23     that they never reappeared.  Avdo Palic, for instance, he was found

24     recently.  And I know nothing about the rest.

25        Q.   Thank you, Witness --

Page 9887

 1        A.   So that's what helped me to make the decision not to go with the

 2     convoy.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions at this time.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness.

 6             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just want a clarification to better understand

 7     the geography as well.

 8             In your testimony, you've said you crossed -- or I understand

 9     your testimony to mean you crossed across the Drina River to the

10     Serbia -- to Serbia; is that correct?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  And you were escaping from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.  I escaped from

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I hoped to go through Serbia and reach Macedonia

15     because it was free down there.

16             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, now it's the right of the accused,

18     Mr. Tolimir, to put questions to you during his cross-examination.

19             Mr. Tolimir, it's your turn now.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Peace unto

21     this house.  I greet everybody present and the witness.  And I wish for

22     this testimony and these proceedings to end in accordance with God's will

23     and not my will.  I would also like to ask the witness, since we speak

24     the same language, to make a short pause after I make my question and to

25     wait until my question has appeared in the screen.  He should answer only

Page 9888

 1     after that.  And I'm going to follow the same procedure when he speaks.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 3        Q.   So let us start with the most recent questions.

 4             Just now, line 13, Judge Nyambe, asked you whether you went to

 5     Serbia, and you said:  Yes, I wanted to go to Macedonia.

 6             Could you tell me, why do you speak of Serbia in such a way in

 7     your statements?  Because you were looking to be saved in Serbia.

 8        A.   I wasn't looking to be saved in Serbia.  I was escaping.  My goal

 9     was to get to Macedonia and for that I had to go through Serbia.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Page 11, line 17, the Prosecutor asked you why didn't

11     you want to go with your family.  Just a moment, let me finish.  And you

12     said that you were afraid for your life.  My question is:  Were you more

13     afraid for your life?  How come you were not afraid for the lives of your

14     wife and children?

15        A.   Of course I was afraid for the lives of my wife and children.

16     But I heard that the Red Cross and the UNHCR and UNPROFOR were going to

17     organise the transport and evacuation.  So 90 per cent, or maybe even

18     99 per cent, I couldn't be sure.  And I have to tell you, since I heard

19     from the survivors of Srebrenica what really happened to them, I really

20     wasn't certain about anything.  And if I went there, 100 percent -- I'm

21     sure 100 percent that I would have no chance, because have you to think

22     about what was going on there.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I hear what you say.  But can you tell me:  Was a

24     single person killed among those who were transported by the VRS into the

25     federation?

Page 9889

 1        A.   Excuse me, what are you asking?

 2        Q.   Was anybody from the inhabitants of your place killed during the

 3     transport from your place to the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 4        A.   There were 14 persons from my place in the camp but there are

 5     also those who disappeared, those who tried to go through the woods and

 6     they're completely lost now.

 7        Q.   Yes.  But they are the people taking part in combat activities.

 8     What I'm asking about is whether anybody was killed among those who went

 9     in an organised way to Tuzla.

10        A.   Avdo Palic, the negotiator, and two or three other people who

11     were with him were also killed.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13        A.   I apologise.  I'm going to make pauses.

14        Q.   I want you to tell me once again --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask both speakers to pause

16     between question and answer.  The same is -- I wish for you, Mr. --

17     please pause and wait for a moment.  You can see when the translation has

18     finished.  Then the record on the screen in front of you will stop.  It

19     is very difficult for the interpreters.

20             Please, continue, Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

22     apologise to the interpreters.

23        Q.   I would like the witness to answer my question directly, not by

24     other questions or some other answers.  I asked you:  Was anybody killed

25     among those who were transported from the centre of Zepa to the

Page 9890

 1     Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Thank you.

 2        A.   First, those of military age were killed.  We were told that

 3     elderly people, women, and children should go with the Red Cross.  But

 4     you took 14 people and you kept them in the camp in Rogatica.  And I'm

 5     talking here only about my place, people who I know.  Many people who

 6     lost their way in the woods were lost.  They are completely disappeared,

 7     which means that you were brutally killing them.  They thought that they

 8     would survive if they went through the woods.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to interrupt for a moment.  Sir, we are

10     here in the courtroom and we are trying to find out the truth.  I'm

11     don't -- I'm not quite sure if I understood you correctly when you said

12     "you took them" from the column.  If you are referring to the accused,

13     then this is not an appropriate answer.  We have to find out what

14     happened and what is in relation to the accused in this trial.

15             Please just tell us what you went through, what you observed,

16     what your experiences were.  And then we will find out what really

17     happened on the ground.

18             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   I would like the witness, once again, to answer.  Was anybody

21     killed among the civilians, men, women, children, who were transported

22     together with his wife from his place towards the Federation of

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Did your wife tell you was anybody killed in her

24     bus?

25        A.   In her bus, nobody was killed.  But a number of people were

Page 9891

 1     killed or ended up in the camps.  I'm sure of that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You can freely tell to the Trial Chamber first and

 3     last names of all the people who were killed after the VRS took over the

 4     place and after VRS guaranteed that they would be safe during the

 5     transport.

 6        A.   I don't know their names.  My wife didn't tell me that anybody

 7     was killed in her truck.  I'm simply talking about the general situation

 8     in Zepa.  There was killing.  There was violence.  There was torture.

 9     Many people who remained there after the fall of Zepa -- you know,

10     UNPROFOR had absolutely no role to play.  The Chetniks wouldn't allow it.

11     It means that many people remained in the woods and they were killed off

12     there like wild beasts.

13        Q.   Can you tell this Trial Chamber the name of any person who

14     remained in Zepa and who was killed and who is registered as having been

15     killed by the VRS?

16        A.   Hazim Sulejmanovic and his son.  Hazim Sulejmanovic and his son.

17        Q.   Can you tell us where they were killed and how they were killed?

18        A.   Well, they are here no more.  They remained in Luke.  I don't

19     know where they were killed or how they were killed, but they were

20     killed.  And it's only two people that I'm mentioning now.  There are

21     more than that.

22        Q.   Do you know anything about their killing, since you're claiming

23     here that they were killed?  You only know that they are no more.  Do you

24     know anything more?

25        A.   Well, somewhere along the way to the free territory you

Page 9892

 1     intercepted them -- I mean, the Chetniks intercepted them, and they did

 2     what they did during the whole war in Bosnia.

 3        Q.   Page 7, line 7, you said there that your family arrived in buses

 4     when you brought them to the place where you brought them - let's not

 5     mention the name - and you said that along the way the Chetniks

 6     threatened them because in the bus there wasn't anybody from ICRC or

 7     UNHCR; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So if that's correct, could you tell us, please, does

10     that mean that the Chetniks used to intercept and kill people if at the

11     same time you say that they themselves actually transported your family?

12        A.   The Chetniks intercepted them at a certain place.  My wife

13     doesn't know the name of that place.  And all the other inhabitants

14     gathered there and started throwing stones at them and swearing their

15     Turkish and Balija mothers.  That's 100 per cent truth.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Have you seen that yourself or have you heard it from

17     your wife?

18        A.   My wife told me and my children told me.

19        Q.   Uh-huh.  So it's hearsay.  Can you tell this Trial Chamber would

20     it be possible for Serbs to move in such free fashion along the territory

21     of the federation in that time during the conflict?

22        A.   There were Serbs who lived in Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You mean the Serbs who were in the army or those

24     Serbs whom Izetbegovic wanted to come from Republika Srpska and live

25     there?

Page 9893

 1        A.   I think that Serbs normally lived in Sarajevo during the war.

 2     They were real Serbs.

 3        Q.   So you're talking about real Serbs.  But can you tell us what

 4     happened to the Serbs in Smolovici?  It was a small enclave in Eastern

 5     Bosnia just like Zepa.

 6        A.   Sir, you are asking me about something that I know nothing about.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  But everybody in Bosnia knows about it.  You know

 8     about it.

 9        A.   I don't know about it.

10        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to the Serbs who

11     lived in Smoloca [phoen] surrounded by Muslim population?  Did they

12     manage to survive until the end of the war?

13        A.   Sir, I was then in Serbia, in your General Staff.  I was

14     interrogated there right at that time, so I have no idea what was going

15     on there at the time.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir and witness, please slow down.  It's

18     very complicated to follow this speed.  And don't overlap again.  Please

19     be very careful.  Go ahead.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, I am asking you about the events in Smoloca in 1993.

23     That's the time when you were a soldier in Srebrenica.  Or maybe in 1992.

24     So can you tell me, do you know what happened to that population?

25     Because it was publicly announced.

Page 9894

 1        A.   I know nothing about it.  I have no information.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, that's the third time, on my

 4     counting, that the accused has asked the same question of this witness

 5     and obviously the witness has given the same answer, that he doesn't know

 6     anything about it.  He's mentioned the same village three times.  This is

 7     wasting time and it's abusing the witness, to continue asking the same

 8     questions in that manner.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I observed earlier that you

10     qualified an answer of the witness as hearsay.  You must know you are

11     asking for hearsay.  Many questions are related to events he was not

12     taking part in.

13             So you should choose what you can gain from this witness as

14     facts.

15             Please go ahead.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm also

17     grateful to the Prosecutor.  I'm going to try to be as efficient as he

18     is, but I have to apologise, simply had to ask that, because this witness

19     was avoiding to answer my question about Smoloca, saying that he was in

20     Serbia at that time.

21             Page 7.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You said that your wife and your family were offloaded

24     6 kilometres from Luka.  My question is:  Was your family, as everybody

25     else, offloaded in the territory which was in between the two

Page 9895

 1     territories, or did they offload them there on purpose, deliberately?

 2        A.   You're misinterpreting something here.  I said that my family was

 3     transported from Zepa towards the free territory.  However, they were

 4     offloaded 6 kilometres from the free territory.  The place is called

 5     Tisca.  That was allegedly somewhere in between the borders.  But it was

 6     quite far away from the borders.  So she had to cover 6 kilometres on

 7     foot with the children.  So I can tell you very precisely it was

 8     6 kilometres.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether all the inhabitants of your

10     place were offloaded at the same spot during the transport towards the

11     federation?  And do you know that it was the army, the BiH army, who

12     determined that spot?

13        A.   I know nothing about that.  I -- I know nothing about it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  On page 5, line 23, you said there were some

15     under-age boys and also some mentally retarded children in the camp in

16     Serbia where you were towards the end.  So my question is as follows:

17     Did the Serbs from Serbia invite you to come to those camps in Serbia,

18     regardless of whether you were under-age, retarded, or elderly, or

19     whatever?  Did they invite you, or did you swim over Drina on your own?

20        A.   I was trying to save myself, regardless of whether it was Serbia

21     or wherever.  My goal was Macedonia.  I was afraid in Serbia as much as I

22     was in Republika Srpska, because the Yugoslav Army also controlled

23     everything and they did whatever they wanted, both in Serbia and in the

24     Serbian republic.  So my goal was to reach Macedonia where I could be

25     free.  And only there my life would not be in danger.  My goal was not to

Page 9896

 1     be discovered in Serbia.  But when I arrived to Serbia, I was captured, I

 2     was tortured, I ended up in the camp.  I survived, barely.

 3        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber why do you call Serbs the

 4     Chetniks, both in Serbia and in Republika Srpska?  And in Serbia they

 5     didn't wage any war against you.  And why do you call the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska a fascist army?  You said that you were in

 7     Pecina - it's page 87, line 8, of yesterday's transcript - and you said

 8     that your father in the previous war was also there.

 9        A.   Yes, that's true.  Also in the previous war my father had to flee

10     from the Chetniks and he was hiding in that place and my mother was

11     wounded by the Chetniks.  And also, one more thing:  I'm calling them

12     Chetniks because they cannot be normal people.  How can they kill a

13     child, an elderly person, a disabled person, a huge number of people?  I

14     think they are monsters.  They cannot be normal people.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, did you see any of those executions

16     with your own eyes?

17        A.   Execution?  Of course.  I am from Srebrenica.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who it was who was executed in

19     Srebrenica by the VRS?  Do you know who and when?

20        A.   The shells that used to land on the playground, I used to pick up

21     those people and take them to hospital.  You killed 100 people in one day

22     and wounded 70.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continued] ... you -- it's

24     not your role as a witness to say --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I get carried away.

Page 9897

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I can understand that this is a very emotional

 2     situation for you, but it is not your duty to judge what this accused did

 3     or not.  The question put to you was -- and it is very difficult for you

 4     to answer these questions because there's so many questions in one.  One

 5     question was: Did you see any of those executions with your own eyes?

 6     With your own eyes.

 7             Could you answer this question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  In 1993, when I

 9     was in Srebrenica, I saw that 100 people were killed in the playground

10     and 70 wounded.  I'm not talking about the playground itself, but I can

11     say that in total 100 people were killed by the shelling at that time.

12     And I used to collect them and take them to the hospital, both the

13     wounded and the dead.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We heard about that yesterday.

15             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You said that in 1993 you saw some killed and wounded people on

19     the playground.  Can you tell us, was it all captured by the camera which

20     came with General Morillon, and was it broadcast to the world public?

21        A.   I can tell you that there was one man who was robbed by you.  You

22     took all his materials and all his notes.  It was a German person engaged

23     in humanitarian work in Srebrenica.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to stop you here on two reasons.  You

25     again said:  "You took all his materials and all his notes."

Page 9898

 1             If you -- if you are telling us that Mr. Tolimir did something,

 2     then tell us.  But it's not your duty to judge what your opinion is.  If

 3     you say "you," be very careful with that, please.  It is the Chamber who

 4     will make a judgement at the end of this trial.

 5             And another thing.  I would like to remind you to pause and not

 6     immediately to start with your answer when you get a question by

 7     Mr. Tolimir.  The court recorder and the interpreters can't follow this

 8     conversation.  Please bear that in mind.

 9             Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I will do

11     my best not to do that again.  I didn't mean him directly.  When I said

12     "you," I meant the army, the Serbian army.  I didn't mean the accused

13     himself.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that explanation.  This

15     is much more helpful.  If you can give us clear answers about the facts.

16             Please continue.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you please tell us whether in 1991 in Srebrenica any of the

20     inhabitants of Srebrenica had a camera and did they film those events and

21     was this incident that you are talking about documented?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1993.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait with your answer.  Now you have the

24     floor.

25        A.   I met a man.  He was a German who was helping to get the

Page 9899

 1     water works running again.  He was helping the people.  He had a lot of

 2     information, and he had the camera equipment.  And in 1993 I heard that

 3     all of that material was confiscated from him in Zvornik.  He had a

 4     camera, and he maintained some kind of record.  He was a humanitarian

 5     worker.  He was helping to get the water up and running again, water for

 6     washing.  He was helping the elderly.

 7        Q.   You said that in your previous answer.  Can you just now tell us

 8     who you heard it from?  And can you tell us again whether there was

 9     anybody in Srebrenica who had a camera, and was this material something

10     that was ever brought to light?  Was it broadcast by any international

11     media?  Were these cassettes preserved?

12        A.   I don't know.  This was the only camera that I meant.

13             MR. THAYER:  With the Court's indulgence.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think it might be helpful to

16     clarify the questions, which might also help clarify the answers to the

17     Court's desire, that General Tolimir put his case directly to the witness

18     about this issue.  That is, if it is General Tolimir's case that the

19     playground shelling that this witness testified about did not happen, if

20     it is General Tolimir's case that witness is making that up, and I gather

21     that that is somewhat his case, given the questions about whether it was

22     captured on camera, then he should just put that directly to the witness.

23             He has an obligation to put his case to the witness.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see any problem with the question if

25     there was anybody in Srebrenica who had a camera.  This was the question.

Page 9900

 1     And the witness answered: I don't know.  I think this is fine.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I'm not objecting to the question, Mr. President.

 3     I'm just trying to suggest, under the Rules, that the General put his

 4     case to the witness.  And if it is his case, again, that this playground

 5     massacre that we heard about didn't happen, that it's propaganda or a

 6     mere allegation or whatever, that he put that to this witness directly

 7     and not beat around the bush.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have something

10     else.  My brother was killed in 1994 by a shell --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continued] ... please wait.

12     We are conferring at the moment.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, the Chamber is of the view that it is

15     the right of the accused to put questions during the cross-examination to

16     the witness without putting his theory about the events and his

17     estimation of the events happening in Srebrenica at the relevant time to

18     the witness first.  We wouldn't agree with such a rule.  Mr. Tolimir is

19     not giving evidence.  He may put questions to the witness to find out

20     what he knows about these events.  That's all during cross-examination.

21     And that has to do with finding out the truth and testing the credibility

22     of a witness.

23             This is all in our view.

24             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on with your questions.

25             Let me remind you not to put too many questions in one.  This is

Page 9901

 1     very difficult for the witness.  And ask for facts.  This is much more

 2     helpful for your case.

 3             Please carry on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Three questions ago I asked you, yesterday, on page 9872,

 8     lines 3 to 6, when you were describing the place where you were hiding in

 9     July 1995, you said the following.  I quote:

10             "During World War II, my father used the same cave to hide from

11     the Chetniks and the fascists."

12             Later, in other line, you said that the name of the cave was

13     Sokolina.  Now, are you aware or do you know on whose side did the

14     Muslims in Zepa fight in the course of World War II?

15        A.   Well, I say that they were partisans as well.  I don't know if

16     there were any -- I don't know which army my father was in.  I don't

17     know.  But there were partisans as well, definitely.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell me why in your statement you call

19     Chetniks -- well, you called the Serbs Chetniks and fascists.  Is this a

20     pejorative name or is this an official name?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continued] ... Mr. Tolimir,

22     this is the second time you put this question to the witness and you

23     received already an answer to that.  You received an answer.

24             Please go ahead.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  But he

Page 9902

 1     didn't tell me last time either why he called Serbs Chetniks and

 2     fascists.  He didn't answer me, so that's why I asked him again.

 3        A.   Not all Serbs.  I don't call all Serbs fascists and Chetniks.

 4     Those who killed and who expelled the Muslim people.  Well, actually, not

 5     just the Muslims; they expelled and killed others.  Croats, the Roma,

 6     Jews.  How many Croats did you leave behind in Srebrenica or Roma?  How

 7     many Roma are there left there Srebrenica?  After you expelled the

 8     Muslims, did you leave Croats and Roma behind?  Are there any left in

 9     Srebrenica?

10        Q.   Thank you.  I would like you to answer my question, please.  You

11     didn't answer my question earlier.  Why do you call Serbs Chetniks and

12     fascists?

13        A.   I don't call all Serbs Chetniks and fascists, only those

14     monsters, those people who kill children, who kill elderly people.  I

15     don't know what to say.  People who were not normal.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This examination is getting very complicated.

17     First of all, I have to remind the witness, again, that it is not

18     acceptable if you say:  After you expelled the Croats.  This is the

19     Chamber to decide on that.

20             Secondly, please calm down.  And I know that very well, that you

21     are in a very difficult situation and that you are very emotional.  It

22     was a clear question of Mr. Tolimir, although it was the third time he

23     put it to you.

24             Mr. Thayer, you are right.  I think that what you wanted to raise

25     for the third time.  But every time in a slightly different way.

Page 9903

 1             Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  And just -- Mr. President, and that might also,

 3     perhaps to some small degree, help the temperature a little bit to stop

 4     asking the same question over and other again.  That can only help.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We received an answer to that question by the

 6     witness.  It is his point of view.  And we all are in the position to

 7     judge why that happened.

 8             Please carry on.  And not the same question again, please.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Thank you, Witness, for your answer.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Court now show document

14     1D587, page 2, paragraph 1, please.  Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document should not be broadcast.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             Can we now look at page 2, after we look at page 1.

19             We can see the signature.  We can see that the witness signed

20     this signature -- signed this statement.  Thank you.

21             Can we now look at page 2, paragraph 1.  Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You gave the statement in March 1992.  Sorry.  In 2002 --

24     March 2002, I apologise.  And you said in the statement that the fact

25     that you did not enjoy freedom of movement means that you cannot return

Page 9904

 1     back to the place where you lived.  You said that.

 2             Do you remember saying that?

 3        A.   Yes, I remember everything that I said in the statement.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you answer my question then?  Did anyone forbid

 5     you from entering the territory of Republika Srpska where your place of

 6     birth is?

 7        A.   Republika Srpska didn't exist at the time.  It was Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina.  And then there was the Yugoslav Army who captured that area

 9     and who expelled the people, persecuted the people.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I was talking about 2002, when you gave your

11     statement.  You said: The fact that I do not have the freedom of movement

12     means that I cannot go back to the place where I lived.

13        A.   Yes, that is true.  Only in 2005 was I able to go.  And I was

14     very much afraid.  Even now when I go, I'm still afraid.

15        Q.   I'm sorry because I need to put this question to you again.  My

16     question is:  Did anybody forbid you, in 2002, from entering the area of

17     Republika Srpska and going back to your place?

18        A.   2000?

19        Q.   2002.

20        A.   In 2002 it was still unsafe.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I will always interrupt you if you are

22     overlapping in this way.  It is impossible to continue in that way.

23     Please pause between question and answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't do it again, Your Honours.

25     I apologise.  I really do apologise.

Page 9905

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you please tell us, if somebody was restricting your freedom

 6     of movement in 2002 in Republika Srpska, can you please tell us who that

 7     was?  You said that it wasn't safe.

 8        A.   Well, I'm going to tell you if you tell me the number of people

 9     who were back there, who had returned to live there in 2002, then I will

10     tell you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, this is not an appropriate answer.  You were

12     asked by Mr. Tolimir -- no, don't interrupt me.  You were asked if

13     anybody was restricting your freedom of movement in 2002 in the

14     Republika Srpska.

15             Please answer the question, if you know that.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do know.  Nobody was forbidding

17     it, but it was unsafe.  It was risky, in any case.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we look at the first page again of this statement, 1D587.  We

22     don't need to broadcast it publicly.  Thank you.  Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] We see the date here of the

24     interview.  This is the third line from the bottom.  It says

25     11th of March, 2002; 12th of March, 2002; and 13th of March, 2002.

Page 9906

 1             My question is: These dates in March 2002, do they correspond to

 2     the days that you were interviewed by the OTP?

 3        A.   Yes.  The dates do match.  I was talking to the lawyer.  Yes,

 4     that's true.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at 1D582 now, please.  1D582.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Doesn't need to be broadcast.

 8     Thank you.  Thank you.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22             My question -- well, I can see Mr. Thayer is on his feet.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continued] ... before you

24     put this question to -- before you put the question to the witness, we

25     must make a redaction of the transcript where the place of residence is

Page 9907

 1     mentioned.

 2             MR. THAYER:  And, in addition, there's a redaction at

 3     page 32, line 9, a specific reference to a name that needs to be

 4     redacted.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Indeed, that will be redacted as

 6     well.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, put your question to the witness as indicated.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             Go ahead, please.  You wanted to put a question to the witness.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   My question is this.  At the beginning of your statement you said

21     that you had no freedom of movement.  And at the very end of your

22     statement, on page 13 in the Serbian and page 12 in the English, you said

23     that you had come to Sweden illegally, in the country where you were, and

24     that you sought asylum there --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continued] ... now we are --

Page 9908

 1     we have to go into private session.  If you are dealing with this problem

 2     extensively, we can't do it in open session.

 3             First we go into private session.  We have to redact the last

 4     question again.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9909











11 Page 9909 redacted. Private session.















Page 9910

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, we must have our first break now for half an

21     hour, and we will resume at quarter past 4.00.  The Court Usher will

22     assist you during the break.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please continue your

Page 9911

 1     cross-examination.  And, again, I would like to remind both speakers not

 2     to be too emotional, not to overlap, to speak slowly.  And if there are

 3     reasons to go into private session, Mr. Tolimir, you should consider

 4     that.

 5             Please go ahead.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Witness, at the end of the previous session, we were talking

 9     about the demining agency.  And my question is this:  Since there were

10     many unemployed in Bosnia, and you had come from abroad, you decided to

11     apply in the agency for demining?

12        A.   I got a direct job because there was a job advertisement, and I

13     applied.  This was an agency that worked in cooperation with the army and

14     with the UN.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter didn't catch the last end of the

16     answer.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you please explain to the Chamber what the MPRI was?

19     Because you worked there.

20        A.   It's an international organisation for demining.  It's BH MAK.  I

21     believe that you also know about it because the Serbian army is also

22     engaged in demining.

23        Q.   Could you tell us if it's a non-governmental organisation or if

24     it's an organisation of the Government of B&H or the Army of B&H?  Who

25     finances it?  Thank you.

Page 9912

 1        A.   Your question wasn't precise.  Are you talking about the BH MAK

 2     or the MPRI?

 3        Q.   Who's financing the MP -- the BH MAK and who's financing the

 4     MPRI?

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mister, could you please repeat your answer.  You

 8     were starting too early again.  The interpreters didn't hear you.  What

 9     was your answer?

10             You were asked:  Who is financing the BH MAK and the MPRI, I

11     think it should read.  Who is financing that?  Could you please answer

12     that question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The BH MAK is being financed by the

14     state of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It's an organisation of Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina for demining, the demining of the field.  And the MPRI is an

16     international organisation for the clearing and removal of mines from the

17     field.

18             The MPRI is probably financed by the UN.  It's a legal

19     organisation.  And the BH MAK is a state organisation.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Gajic, I saw you on your feet.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there were some

23     problems with the interpretation.  We didn't have it for a long time.

24     That's why I was on my feet.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 9913

 1             Mr. Tolimir, continue, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did you serve in the engineers in the JNA?

 5        A.   I swore my oath to the JNA.  I served in Nis.  And I was in an

 6     engineers company.  It's correct.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, 1D587 --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have it up on the

 9     screen.  Page 3.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You said that in late June --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should not be broadcast.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   -- you left your father's village and went through the woods

15     towards Srebrenica.  My question is this:  In that period, in

16     June of 1992 that you talk about, was Srebrenica under the control of the

17     BH Army, and was the whole road from your father's village under the

18     control of the BH army, and had all Serbs been expelled from Srebrenica

19     or killed?  Thank you.

20        A.   On the road from my father's village towards Srebrenica, I passed

21     through the woods.  And at the time, Muslims were living in Srebrenica.

22     I don't know about Serbs.  I didn't see anyone.

23             Could you please be more specific with your question?

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did Serbs live in Srebrenica before the war?  And

25     what happened to them in the period when you came to Srebrenica?

Page 9914

 1        A.   Before the war, there were as many Serbs, almost as many Serbs,

 2     in Srebrenica as Muslims.  And when the war began -- when the war began,

 3     they probably left.  I don't know.  When I arrived Srebrenica, there were

 4     no Serbs there.  Actually, there was.  There was an old woman who lived

 5     in my neighbourhood.  Her name was Mira.  And she left with some refugees

 6     in Potocari.  She left on the convoy.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, on page 9840, you were asked by the

 8     Prosecutor: Were you a member of the BiH army while you were in

 9     Srebrenica?

10             To which you answered: I don't know that there was an army there.

11     How can you define an army?  But there were some organised village

12     guards.

13             My question is: Since we are talking here about 1992 and 1993,

14     did the BiH army, at the time, was it present in Srebrenica?  And did it

15     undertake offensive activities towards the territories inhabited by

16     Serbs?

17        A.   At that time, the most important thing was to save what could be

18     saved.  I arrived to Srebrenica and I immediately went to be a part of

19     the village guards.  At that time, there was no organised army.  And

20     those people who managed to survive in Bratunac did the same thing.  They

21     went to the border in order to save their families and themselves, to

22     defend themselves from the Chetniks.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I would like you to say whether in 1992 and 1993

24     there was a BiH army in Srebrenica or not.

25        A.   Later on, probably they made some lists.  An army did not exist.

Page 9915

 1     You know what is an army.  An army has the soldiers, the equipment, the

 2     weapons, everything.  You can't call this an army, during 1992 and 1993,

 3     while it was a demilitarised zone, all the way up to 1995, until the fall

 4     of Srebrenica.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court D120.

 6     Thank you.  I think the Prosecutor doesn't want it to be broadcast

 7     outside the courtroom.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you please take a look at the paragraph 3.  That would be the

11     fifth line from the top.

12             "On the 1st of January, 1994, in Srebrenica, Strictly

13     Confidential Order 14/75-156/93, issued by the armed forces

14     Supreme Command staff, the unit has been in existence since

15     20th of May, 1992, under the name Srebrenica TO staff, or the Srebrenica

16     armed forces staff, which was legalised by the decision issued by the

17     staff of the BH armed forces Supreme Command, Strictly Confidential

18     14/76-8, dated 3rd of October, 1993."

19        A.   Yes.  But this is 1994.  I wasn't in Srebrenica in 1994.  It is

20     possible that later on when there was peace in the demilitarised zone

21     that they were drawing up some lists and organised some armies.  But this

22     was an army without weapons because it was a demilitarised zone in 1994.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I don't know you said the

24     Prosecution doesn't want to have this broadcast.  I don't see any reason

25     for that.  Or that's a misunderstanding?

Page 9916

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I was told it's a confidential

 3     exhibit in evidence.  Indeed, it should not be broadcast.

 4             Please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I would like to ask the witness to take a look at the third line,

 8     actually, sixth of seventh line, where it says:

 9             "The unit has been in existence since the 20th of May, 1992,

10     under the name Srebrenica TO staff."

11             My question is:  Was there a unit in existence in Srebrenica

12     since the 20th of May, 1992, just as it is described here?  And was it

13     legalised by the Main Staff of the Bosnian army in 1993?

14        A.   They are probably talking about the lists of the guards, of the

15     TO.  I was there, and I certainly would have went into their -- I

16     certainly would have worked with them had I known that they were there.

17     They were self-organised guards.  People were afraid.  People in Bratunac

18     went and assembled in the playground of their own free will.  All places

19     that were free had to somehow defend themselves.  And I also thought it's

20     better if I start the defence here instead of waiting for them to come to

21     my house and slaughter my children.

22             As for the lists, I wouldn't know about that.  I wasn't in the

23     military.  I can't explain you about these things.  In 1992, I was a

24     member of the village guard.  I was wounded there.  And then I did not

25     perform the guard duty until the fall of Zepa, in 1995.  Until just

Page 9917

 1     before the fall of Zepa.  Then I did a few shifts.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at paragraph with number 3 in this

 3     document.  You see number 3?  And just below, take a look at the

 4     following paragraph:  "From 20th of April, 1992, to 12th of July, 1992,

 5     an area inside the Potocari region was liberated."

 6             And then the following paragraph:  "In the period between the 2nd

 7     of May, 1992, until the 6th of August, 1992, the territory in Suceska

 8     region was liberated."

 9             And then the following paragraph:  "Between the 7th of May and

10     the 2nd of June, 1992, an area in the Kragljivoda region was liberated."

11             And then the following paragraph:  "Between the 7th of May, 1992,

12     and 7th of May" [as interpreted] "1992, the region of Osmace was

13     liberated."

14             And then the following paragraph --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down.  Please slow down.  You are

16     very fast while reading.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The following paragraph, the last on this page that can be seen,

20     goes as follows:  "In the period between the 16th of May, 1992, and the

21     30th of June, 1992, a territory within the zone of Skenderovici was

22     liberated."

23             And then after that:  "In the period between the

24     8th of August, 1992, and the 20th of January, 1993, offensive combat

25     activities were carried out in order to finally oust the occupying force

Page 9918

 1     from the municipalities of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica, and Zvornik."

 2             The most significant battles were carried out as follows:  Enemy

 3     driven out from Jezestica on the 8th of August, 1992.  Seizure of

 4     Podravanje on the 24th September, 1992.  Battle for Fakovic on

 5     5th of October, 1992.  Return of Kamenica on the 6th of November, 1992;

 6     it's Christmas.  Then return of territory in the Voljavica zone.  And so

 7     on and so forth.

 8             So my question is:  Does this document depicts the activities

 9     that were carried out from 1992 onwards related to the expulsion of

10     Serbian population from the villages where they used to live?  Thank you.

11        A.   I know nothing about this document and I'm not the right person

12     to talk about it.  As far as the things that you mentioned, Osmace, that

13     was a Muslim village.  Suceska, it was a purely Muslim village.  Luke, it

14     was also a purely Muslim village with no Serbs.  I suppose that you

15     should have read that too.

16             So it wasn't really a liberation.  They were already there, and

17     they organised themselves to protect themselves so that the Chetniks

18     could not come in.  As far as these other activities, I heard about them,

19     but I did not take part in them, and I cannot talk about them.

20        Q.   Thank you.  My question is as follows.  While in 1992 you took

21     part in, as you put it, guards.  Did this unit of guards in which you

22     were took part in any of the actions I mentioned so far?

23        A.   I don't know.  I was wounded in 1992.  It was in the beginning.

24     Which month was it?  I was wounded quite soon, so I don't know anything

25     about this.

Page 9919

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Here, in the second paragraph from the bottom, you

 2     can see:  "In the period between the 16th of May, 1992, and the

 3     30th of June, 1992," and you can see what took place.

 4             Were you during this period member of this so-called guards?

 5     This thing that you call guards?

 6        A.   Yes, guards.  I was in Likari.  That's where I was guard and

 7     that's where I was wounded.  After that, I did not take part in the guard

 8     duty.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now tell the Trial Chamber the names of your

10     commanders, of your squad, of your platoon, of your company?

11        A.   Well, it was chosen by us.  It was Zuhrija Hasanovic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree with me that this document describes

13     units in Srebrenica that carried out combat in the wider area of

14     Srebrenica?

15        A.   It is possible that it was later on registered as such.  I'm not

16     appraised of these things.  These documents, these dates, I don't know

17     anything about it.  I didn't see that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether the settlement mentioned in

19     this document contained any Serbs?  Because you said that they were

20     allegedly liberated by the BiH army, so I want to know whether

21     Podravanje, Kravica, and others had any Serbs in them?  Potocari as well.

22        A.   No Podravanje, Serbs used to live.  In Potocari, I don't know.  I

23     don't know the national composition of the villages.  I didn't go around

24     the villages to find out who lived where.  I know that there were Serbs

25     in Podravanje, that there were Serbs in Kravica.  There were some places

Page 9920

 1     that were of mixed ethnicity, where Muslims and Serbs lived side by side.

 2     I cannot be more precise about this.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise to the interpreters.

 4             How come that the Muslims went on to liberate Podravanje when

 5     there were Serbs there?

 6        A.   I did not take part in that.  I don't know.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you were asked by the Prosecutors about the

 8     attack on the village of Kravica in January 1993.  On page 9841, lines 5

 9     to 12, you said, and I quote:

10             "The Trial Chamber heard the testimony about the Bosniak attack

11     on the village of Kravica on the Serbian Orthodox new year in the

12     January 1993.  Do you remember that this took place and is it true?"

13             And here is your answer:

14             "I know that it happened.  I did not take part in this" -- excuse

15     me, I have to finish the quote -- "I did not take part in this because I

16     was wounded.  The reason for this was the grate lack of food at the

17     time," and so on and so forth.

18             And then you said that they went there because of the food.

19             My question is:  Had you not been wounded, would you have taken

20     place in this attack on Kravica?

21        A.   Yes, I would have to because my children had nothing to eat.  If

22     I were in their place, in the place of those people, I would certainly

23     go.  They were also civilians.  It was an invasion.  That's how they

24     described it.  That's what they said, the people who returned from there

25     bringing food.  Everybody went there.  Women, children, everybody.

Page 9921

 1     Because hunger was so terrible that they had nothing to eat.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you take part in any similar action before that?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Yesterday you said that it was unarmed population who went to

 5     Kravica.

 6        A.   Yes, that's exactly what I said.  It was a huge mass of women,

 7     children, men.  That's how it was.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that 38 people were killed and 30 people

 9     were wounded in this attack on Kravica?  Can something like this be done

10     by unarmed women and children?

11        A.   I don't know about the killed because I was not there and I was

12     not informed about it.  I think that it was an army, after all.

13        Q.   Thank you.  So if it was an army, does that mean that there was

14     an army in Srebrenica, or was it an unarmed population who went into

15     attack?

16        A.   I meant that the killed were the members of an army.

17        Q.   [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I had -- I stopped you because you were

19     overlapping again.  We want -- and it is -- it should be your desire to

20     have a clear record and a full record.

21             Now put your next question.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you tell us, those unarmed civilians, did they

25     manage to kill those armed soldiers, the Serbs that you mentioned, among

Page 9922

 1     whom there were 38 killed and 30 wounded?  And all this happened in

 2     Kravica on the 6th of January, 1993?

 3        A.   Let me tell you, those people who were active, who had guns, they

 4     had to go and seek food.  That's absolutely certain.  And there was also

 5     a mass of civilians.  So the cause of all this was the food.  I regret if

 6     there were innocent victims there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  When Muslims are killed, do you say -- well, you say

 8     that they were killed by Chetniks.  When Serbs are killed, you said it

 9     was the civilians trying to grab food and that Serbs were killed in some

10     armed actions organised by the Muslims?  Thank you.

11        A.   I don't know what you're trying to say with your question.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Since you said five questions ago that there were no

13     soldiers in Srebrenica in 1992 and 1993, the period that we're talking

14     about, perhaps later there was some record of that there were village

15     guards.  I'm asking you now, did the Serbs kill themselves?  Why don't we

16     also say that the Serbs got killed just like the Muslims got killed?

17     Thank you.

18        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.  I would like you to

19     be a bit more specific so that I can answer.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

21             MR. THAYER:  Just a couple of observations, Mr. President.  I'm

22     not objecting to the line of questioning, although I think the utility is

23     extremely limited at this point, given the many questions on this issue.

24     I just want to note for the record:  I don't believe it fairly or

25     accurately characterises the witness's prior testimony and his answers

Page 9923

 1     that there were no soldiers in the enclave.  I think he's been very clear

 2     that there were armed village guards.  He quibbled about whether you

 3     could call it an army.  But it might also help to just keep the answers

 4     clearer if the questions are a little more accurate.  That's why I'm

 5     standing.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That was my observation as well.

 7             The witness -- Mr. Tolimir, that was my observation as well.  The

 8     witness was denying that there was an army in the enclave.  I didn't -- I

 9     don't recall that he said there was no soldier.

10             Please go ahead.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

13             Could the e-court now please show D160.  This is

14     Bozo Momcilovic's statement, who testified yesterday and to whose

15     testimony the Prosecutor referred during the questioning of this witness.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I provided the reference about what the Prosecutor asked you.

18     Now I'm going to quote what the witness who testified yesterday, before

19     you, said.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2, please, of

21     the statement.  D160, please.  D160.  This is not what I'm asking for.

22             MR. THAYER:  And we just need to get this off the screen

23     immediately, Mr. President, because it's sensitive.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  We should remove it immediately, please.

25     Thank you.

Page 9924

 1             D160.  It was D160.  Please, Mr. Tolimir, check the number of

 2     that document.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is document D160, and this is

 4     public document.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps we just had just the wrong document on

 6     the screen.  Wait a moment.  We'll find out if we get the right one now.

 7     I think now we have the statement of Bozo Momcilovic.  This was the

 8     witness of yesterday.  And this is not under seal.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we look at

10     page 2, please.  Paragraph 2.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Now we're going to look at the first paragraph.  It begins from

13     the fifth -- actually, the sixth line from the top.  I'm reading from the

14     first paragraph, line 6, on this page that I can see.  Thank you.

15             I would go -- "I frequently visited my parents and I was in

16     Kravica on the Orthodox Christmas Day of 7 January 1993 when the Muslims

17     attacked my village.  My father didn't want to withdraw with the refugee

18     column and abandon his home.  I found him on the 17th of March of the

19     same year, when the village was liberated.  He was lying dead in front of

20     the house and his head had been cut off and thrown next to a fence

21     nearby.  His house had been destroyed as had all the other houses in the

22     village," and so on.

23             From the statement -- this is from the statement of that witness.

24     And this is what the witness replied to a question.  And then after that,

25     I will put my question to you.  First I went to present to you what the

Page 9925

 1     witness said yesterday during the examination-in-chief in answer to a

 2     question about this matter.  Thank you.

 3             On page 9807, lines 9 to 11, the question was put to the witness:

 4             Could you please say if there were any attacks on other Serbian

 5     villages in the environs of Srebrenica in 1992, 1993, and 1994, if you

 6     know?

 7             Answer by Witness Momcilovic.  I quote:

 8             In 1993, when Kravica was torched ... Skelani were also torched,

 9     a village which was attacked on the 16th or 17th.  Other than Bratunac,

10     all the villages were attacked and destroyed starting from mid-May.

11             On page 9807, lines 20 to 25, and page 9808, I ask him:

12             Could you repeat for the transcript, please, who attacked these

13     other Serbian villages after the 7th of January, 1993?  And which

14     villages were destroyed in 1993 by the Muslims?  Thank you.

15             And the witness replied:

16             Under the command of Commander Naser Oric, who was headquartered

17     in Srebrenica, the villages along the river Drina were torched; these

18     were Fakovici, Bjelovac, Skelani.  All of that happened in one day, all

19     the small villages around Bratunac and Srebrenica and the whole of

20     Kravica in 1993.  After that, there were other villages that were

21     destroyed from May to August.  This means that up until mid-May Bratunac

22     was the only village that had not fallen in that area where we were.

23     Perhaps some other villages along the Drina.

24             My question is:  Was this combat carried out by Muslim civilians

25     or by Muslim village guards, or was this done in an organised manner by

Page 9926

 1     the Muslim army which attacked these villages and destroyed them just

 2     like Witness Momcilovic said?

 3        A.   I'm sorry about the innocent victims.  I need to say that.

 4     Please believe me that those village guards at the time were village

 5     guards.  Everybody knows what a soldier looks like.  A soldier has a

 6     rifle, he has everything with him.  You cannot have a soldier with a

 7     hunting rifle.  For sure there were some victims.  There must have been

 8     victims for sure.  But the cause for that, the greatest cause for that,

 9     was hunger.  That was something that prompted people to go back to the

10     places where they were living.  That's my answer.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us, if you remember, as an

12     inhabitant of Srebrenica, if, in late 1993 and early 1994, the Serbian

13     army set off to help the Serbian population, to save it from attacks that

14     were carried out by Muslims at Serb villages?  Thank you.

15        A.   In 1993, I left in July to live in the place where my parents

16     lived, so I don't know what was going on in Srebrenica.  I wasn't a

17     soldier either, so ...

18        Q.   Thank you.  Were you in Srebrenica during the time Morillon was

19     there?  Because earlier you talked about some events about a playing

20     field.  Thank you.

21        A.   Yes.  That was when the shelling of the school happened and where

22     the -- that's when Morillon was there.  This involved the school

23     playground.

24        Q.   Was that March 1993?

25        A.   Yes, that was March 1993.

Page 9927

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if that was when the Serbian army carried

 2     out combat actions in relation to Srebrenica, the Muslim enclave from

 3     which attacks were carried out and from where inhabitants of Serbian

 4     villages were killed?

 5        A.   Yes, I know about it.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now, please, your answer.  It was too early, your

 7     answer.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise.  Perhaps

 9     I am experiencing some panic.  I was interrogated in camps.  So what I'm

10     doing is not something that I'm doing deliberately.

11             Now I can answer the question.  It was noticeable.  The villages

12     that were still free, those inhabitants came to Srebrenica, which was

13     already overpopulated, over crowded, so you could feel that.  It's true

14     that that's why the United Nations came.  Philip Morillon was there

15     because of that.  The United Nations took control there.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether the conflict between the

18     Muslims and the Serbs in Srebrenica ended with the proclamation of the

19     demilitarised zone in May 1993?  Thank you.

20        A.   I did know the demilitarised zone was declared.  I was really

21     happy.  We were told that it was the end of the war, that there would be

22     no more.  I was overjoyed.  But I still experienced worst things until

23     1995.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us if there were actions on both

25     sides in Srebrenica in early 1993 and in late 1994 when you were still in

Page 9928

 1     Srebrenica before you went to Luke?

 2        A.   I left to the place where my parents lived in June 1993.  I don't

 3     remember the exact date, but it was definitely June.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In your answers to a number of my questions, you said

 5     that before the signing of the agreement there were no soldiers in

 6     Srebrenica, only the village guards and unarmed -- the unarmed

 7     population.  However, in a report by the general secretary

 8     [as interpreted] on the fall of Srebrenica, we're going to look at D122,

 9     page 13, paragraph 36.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we had this discussion earlier

11     already.  I recall that the witness said there was no army in Srebrenica.

12     If you recall it differently, you should give a reference where the

13     witness said that there were no soldiers in Srebrenica.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Perhaps you're getting

15     an interpretation of words that I did not say.  I said soldiers and the

16     witness said village guards.  I agree that he said that in that period

17     there were no soldiers, but now I'm introducing evidence about what the

18     Secretary-General said about that at the time.  This is D122, page 13,

19     paragraph 36.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   We can see paragraph 36.  The witness can look at it as well.

22             I'm going to quote and translate:

23             "In September 1992 ... Bosniak forces from Srebrenica linked up

24     with those from Zepa, a small Bosniak-held village in the densely wooded

25     area to the south of Srebrenica.  The Srebrenica enclave reached its

Page 9929

 1     greatest extent in January 1993, when it was joined to the nearby Bosniak

 2     enclave of Cerska to the west of Srebrenica.  At its greatest extent, the

 3     Srebrenica enclave covered almost 900 square kilometres of territory in

 4     Eastern Bosnia.  Despite this expansion, the enclave was never joined to

 5     the main body of government-held territory further west, leaving it

 6     vulnerable to isolation and attack by Serb forces."

 7             From the general secretary's report on the fall of Srebrenica.

 8             My question is:  Do you know when the B&H army from Srebrenica

 9     linked up with the forces from Zepa, since, in that period, you were

10     going from one place to the other?

11        A.   I don't know the date.  I did pass that way in June 1993 in order

12     to reach my parents' place, but I don't know the exact date.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, please tell me, because my only goal is to get

14     to the truth, is it possible that the village guards and the unarmed

15     civilians held under their control a territory of 900 square kilometres

16     that the Secretary-General writes about in his report?  And that's the

17     Secretary-General of the UN.  Thank you.

18        A.   I don't know what to tell you about this.  I wasn't in the army.

19     I don't know what to tell you.  At the time, I didn't know.  Later I saw

20     what you showed me.  I had seen this information about the army, and

21     later on this army developed and lists were made.  During the

22     demilitarisation of the zone, weapons were taken.  And during peacetime,

23     the army patrolled the area.  And they did the patrols together with the

24     civilian police.  Or it was the civilian police with UNPROFOR and they

25     patrolled the borders of the enclave.  They monitored the situation in

Page 9930

 1     the field.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Since we talked a lot about the subject, is this your

 3     personal knowledge?

 4        A.   It's my personal knowledge.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I wouldn't discuss this any further.

 6             During the examination-in-chief, on page 9844 of the transcript,

 7     you talked about UNHCR convoys and the evacuation of the population on

 8     UNHCR trucks, if you recall.  My question was:  Can you tell us in which

 9     period and in which year people were evacuated in UNHCR convoys?

10        A.   It was in April of 1993.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   I think it was April.

13        Q.   Could you please tell us whether the evacuation would have been

14     possible without the agreement of all the conflicting sides, and, in this

15     case, without the agreement of Republika Srpska, through the territory of

16     which these convoys passed?

17        A.   I guess there was agreement.  Because you decided about who was

18     to live and about everything.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether there was agreement at the time

20     between the Muslim government, the Government of Republika Srpska, and

21     UNPROFOR on the freedom of movement of civilians after the signing of

22     agreement on Srebrenica and Zepa which implied freedom of movement?

23     Thank you.

24        A.   I know that an agreement was signed on freedom of movement inside

25     the enclave and not outside the enclave.

Page 9931

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Since you lived in Srebrenica, could you please tell

 2     us whether the Muslims wanted to take the opportunity and go to

 3     Central Bosnia towards Sarajevo, Tuzla, and other destinations controlled

 4     by the Muslim army on these convoys?

 5        A.   Sir, in that situation, wherever you are on the planet, you just

 6     wanted to leave that hell and go wherever you could.  There was shelling,

 7     there was hunger.  My nephew was killed in 1994 in the Zepa enclave.

 8     That was the desire not -- and they wanted to go anywhere in the world

 9     where they could finally be unafraid.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Were there then some kind of priorities?  Was this

11     done in an organised fashion, or was it done spontaneously by the

12     civilians, since there were a lot of people who wanted to go?

13        A.   There was a big Chetnik attack on the enclaves and the people

14     were moved out.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was this after the signing of the agreement on the

16     demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa?

17        A.   Believe me, I don't recall.  I was in the camp at that time when

18     Dayton was signed, when the peace agreement was signed.  I was in the

19     camp.  I believe I was in the camp in Serbia.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you about the agreement on the

21     demililtarisation of Srebrenica and not about the peace accord for Bosnia

22     signed in Dayton.

23             A moment ago we were talking about the period after Morillon's

24     arrival.  Do you remember that and were you in Srebrenica at the time?

25        A.   I'm not sure I understand your question.  Could you please repeat

Page 9932

 1     your question?

 2        Q.   Please tell us whether in May of 1993 you were in Srebrenica.

 3     Thank you.

 4        A.   In May of 1993, I was in Srebrenica.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In May of 1993, when the agreement was signed between

 6     the VRS and the BH army on the demililtarisation of Srebrenica, did

 7     convoys leave for Central Bosnia under the control of the BH army?

 8        A.   I don't know the exact date, but it might have been April.

 9     April of 1993.  I'm not sure about the exact date.  But, yes, it was in

10     1993.  Around the month of April.  It was in spring anyway.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now look at paragraph 39

12     on page 14.  Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Now we'll see what UNHCR has to say about that.

15             "During the weeks that followed, UNHCR succeeded in bringing a

16     number of humanitarian aid convoys into Srebrenica and in evacuating

17     large numbers of vulnerable people to the relative safety of the

18     government-held city of Tuzla.  These evacuations were, in general,

19     opposed ... by the Bosnian government ... sometimes forcibly.  They felt

20     that it contributed to the ethnic cleansing of the territory.  The

21     evacuations were supported by the Bosnian Serbs, who were willing to

22     allow UNHCR to send empty trucks to Srebrenica to collect evacuees, but

23     who were reluctant to allow humanitarian aid into the enclave.  The

24     Special Envoy of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees stated

25     that he supported the evacuations as a measure of last resort to save

Page 9933

 1     lives."

 2             This is what UNHCR had to say, that is to say, what the

 3     Secretary-General had to say; this is all his report.

 4             We saw from your previous reply that there was a lot of interest

 5     among the civilians to go to Central Bosnia.  So my question is:  Did any

 6     civilians or any of the army in Srebrenica organise, together with

 7     UNPROFOR, the moving out of civilians in order to avoid big crowds from

 8     gathering, where people might have been injured or killed?

 9        A.   I remember that there was one such evacuation and it was

10     suspended for some reason.  I don't know why.  Probably because the

11     situation was such.  And it was probably done under your pressure because

12     you were preventing humanitarian aid from --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry, I have to interrupt you again.  You

14     shouldn't refer to the accused when you are giving this -- your

15     explanation to this question.  Or do you mean the accused himself, if you

16     say "you"?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't referring to the accused.

18     When I say "vi" or "you," I'm referring to the plural, I'm referring to

19     the army and the people who were engaged in the clearing of Eastern

20     Bosnia, of Muslims or Bosniaks.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In your last answer you said, and this is on the

22     record:  "It was ... done under your pressure because you were preventing

23     humanitarian aid ..."

24             Was that your understanding that the accused did it, or the

25     Bosnian Serbs?  We want to have it clear on the record.

Page 9934

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the

 2     Bosnian Serbs.  The word in plural, "vi" in plural, can mean several

 3     people or a group of people.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I just wanted to raise an issue that

 6     we obviously touched on before the last break.  And we managed to have

 7     some informal contacts with our own language assistants as well as with

 8     some of the Court Interpreters and I think Your Honour and the witness

 9     have just put your collective thumbs on what was leading to some

10     confusion before the break, and that is a linguistic fact that the word

11     that he may -- that is he using on some occasions can literally mean a

12     couple of things, plural, so that he -- I think, as he just explained,

13     when he uses that particular word, he's meaning a collective you or a

14     plural you, as opposed to the individual.  And I think, particularly

15     before the break, when we had a lot of back and forth and overlapping,

16     that led to some confusion.  I think that explains, as we can see from

17     the explanation, why we're getting the transcript we're getting and the

18     way some of the answers are sounding.

19             So I just wanted to note that we've had those conversations with

20     the -- with some of the interpreters about this issue.  We also

21     understand that there were a couple of occasions when he did very

22     specifically say you in the singular but that there were many occasions

23     when he was using the word in the plural form.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That helps.  Thank you very much.  And, indeed,

25     the witness said the word in plural.  "Vi" in plural can mean several

Page 9935

 1     people or a group of people.

 2             Mr. Gajic.

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we understand

 4     Mr. Thayer fully.  Unfortunately, he doesn't speak the Serbian language.

 5     And in the Serbian language there are two ways to address somebody.

 6     There is one way which is polite and it starts with "vi."  And there is

 7     another one which is used between people who've known each other for a

 8     very long time and have a very close relationship.  It's used in informal

 9     communication.  And in the Serbian language you would use the word "ti."

10     However, there is no such difference in English language.  If I heard

11     correctly, and I've been listening carefully, I believe that the witness

12     addressed Mr. Tolimir several times as "ti," meaning in a way that

13     doesn't mean that you are referring to the person politely.

14             And I also think that the instruction given by the Trial Chamber

15     is in place because the word "you" in the Serbian language, when it is

16     translated, can mean both a group or addressing an individual.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, we have the record of these hearings in

18     English.  We must be cautious not to use the wrong language.  There might

19     be a translation issue; that is recognised.  And I hope we can avoid

20     further problems with that.

21             It is interesting that this occurred just today.

22             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.  And I would like to ask the

23     witness to choose the words carefully.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Thank you, Mr. Gajic, Mr. Thayer.

Page 9936

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, yesterday you talked about listening to radio programmes

 3     where you heard that a corridor had been opened from Srebrenica towards

 4     Tuzla.  And on page 9858, lines 2 to 6, you said:  "There was a

 5     proclamation" --

 6             I'll repeat the pages of the transcript.  They were not recorded

 7     well.  On page 9858, lines 2 to 6, you said, and I quote:

 8             "There was a proclamation that a corridor would be opened towards

 9     Tuzla so all the civilians would be able to leave Srebrenica.  I was on

10     that road myself.  I was there with my wife and my children, and we

11     walked along that road when we were intercepted."

12             However, in your statement, 1D587, on page 4, paragraph 7, you

13     say" --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:  Again, Mr. President, this should not be broadcast.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             Do you want to have it on the screen?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  For the Chamber, we can

19     put the statement on the screen.  It's 1D587, page 4, paragraph 7, so

20     that can you see that I'm quoting accurately what the witness said.

21     1D587, page 4, paragraph 7.  Thank you.  The witness should see it so it

22     would be easier for him to see what he said.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Page 4, paragraph 7, please.  You said, and here now we see it:

25             "In February of 1993" -- it's paragraph 2 in English, and I quote

Page 9937

 1     what you said:

 2             "In February 1993 there was a corridor from Srebrenica to Tuzla

 3     that the Serbs had made.  We were going to go but I heard from others

 4     that there was some killings near Snagovo, near Zvornik.  After that we

 5     decided not to leave."

 6             My question is this:  Since there is some contradiction here,

 7     which statement is not accurate?  Is it the one that you gave to the

 8     Prosecution in March of 2002 when you said that you were going to go but

 9     decided not to go or what you said in court that you had set off but that

10     then you were intercepted?  Thank you.

11        A.   I think that all three are accurate.  What you're saying, that

12     the corridor was opened, it was not opened.  Instead, before the fall and

13     before the chaos and the arrival of UNPROFOR, you said to the media that

14     people should go, that anyone who wanted to go could, and the corridor

15     was opened for a short time.  So that's why I made this decision.  That's

16     one thing.

17             The second thing is that the people in Srebrenica, and also

18     refugees who had come to Srebrenica from Visegrad, Rogatica, Han Pijesak,

19     Zvornik, Vlasenica, Bratunac, and the surrounding areas, those who had

20     survived 1992 and were in Srebrenica, there was a lot of chaos, there was

21     fear, there was shelling.  People were afraid of being killed.  They were

22     afraid of being captured and tortured.  So I stand behind all the

23     statements that I made, all three.

24             The people wanted to find any opportunity to save themselves from

25     what lay ahead.  And I was forced into taking the road across Serbia.

Page 9938

 1     The situation was such that I had to do this.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  We won't speak on this matter anymore, since you said

 3     that all three were correct.  Otherwise, we'd lose lots of time.

 4             Yesterday, page 9866, you said that you participated in the

 5     distribution of the humanitarian aid in the place where your father lived

 6     in 1995.

 7             My question is:  Who organised this distribution of humanitarian

 8     aid in the place where your father used to live and where you had

 9     arrived?

10        A.   There should be no confusion about the terminology.  It wasn't a

11     distribution.  It was handing out of humanitarian aid.  The aid would

12     arrive in trucks and then it would be handed out right there on the spot.

13        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Who assigned you to hand out this

14     humanitarian aid?

15        A.   It belonged to the Red Cross, and those people assigned me this

16     task.  I assumed that they had a positive opinion on me because before me

17     there was a group that I think they suspected of theft.  They didn't

18     accuse anybody, but I think that those were their suspicions.  So it was

19     (redacted)

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, can you assist the Chamber.  There

22     was mention -- in the last line of the last answer, is there anything

23     to -- which should be redacted?

24             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Out of an abundance of caution,

25     and thank you for pointing that out, page 63, line 8.  The village.

Page 9939

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In e-court, it's line 10.  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Since you mention some abuses in the handing out of humanitarian

 6     aid, can you tell us whether there were some lists of people who received

 7     the aid?

 8        A.   Yes.  There was a list of families, with the members of those

 9     families.

10        Q.   Was this humanitarian aid also sold in the same place where it

11     was handed out?

12        A.   Absolutely not.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Was humanitarian aid sent from Zepa to Srebrenica?

14        A.   I don't know about that.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D586, page 3.

16             This is a document entitled: "Intelligence Security Information

17     on Zepa in 1993."

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you know whether there was a corridor between Zepa and

20     Srebrenica that could be used for the movement of population?

21        A.   There wasn't a corridor but there was a forest.  I myself passed

22     through that forest.  I could have been killed, had I been noticed by the

23     Chetniks.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 in e-court.

25     This was first page.  Now the third page.

Page 9940

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Now can you take a look.  There is a first paragraph and then

 3     some lines, then the second, and I really don't want to talk about this.

 4     But the one that begins with the words: "The life-line."

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I'm going to quote the document.  It goes as follows:

 7             "The life-line of the entire zone is the Zepa-Srebrenica open

 8     corridor.  The corridor is used every day, whether for military or

 9     civilian purposes.  The people of Zepa are trading with the people of

10     Srebrenica in tobacco, cigarettes, salt, and coffee," and then we have

11     the prices of the products.

12             My question is:  Was it like it is described in this report?  We

13     can even see the prices here.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   Yes.  I remember there was smuggling, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was there any smuggling involving members of UNPROFOR

16     in Zepa?  Do you know anything about that?

17        A.   I don't know if there was any smuggling with -- with them.  I

18     think there were rumours that those things would come over the border

19     through Serbia.  I'm sure that all these things came from Serbia.

20             Now, as for UNPROFOR is concerned, I don't know whether there was

21     any smuggling, but, of course, there was some barter.  I myself used to

22     barter things for gasoline.  I would give rakija and then I would receive

23     gasoline.  It's the same thing.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how this gasoline for UNPROFOR was

25     supplied to Zepa?

Page 9941

 1        A.   Well, they know that.  I didn't work with them, I didn't spend

 2     time with them, so I don't know.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at page five

 4     of the same document.  In e-court, it's page 4.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6             You can see, under Roman numeral III:  "Zepa-Srebrenica

 7     corridor."  And then it goes on.  There are at least three roads from

 8     Zepa to Srebrenica, which, as a rule, bypass UNPROFOR check-points.  The

 9     first one:

10             "Zepa - Vinjiste - Dubronov Do - Koritnik - Pripecak -

11     Zeceva Basta - Sirova Gora - Studenac - Vukolin Stan - Crni Vrh - then

12     along the path to the Crni Potok - Pogledala - along the edge of

13     Susica - Ponjerak - Luceva Ravan - Zeleni Jadar - Posmulic -

14     Rajne - Bojna - Srebrenica."

15             My question is:  Do you know whether --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop for a moment.  It's extremely difficult for

17     the court recorder to put all that in a sufficient way on the record.  It

18     was a very long quotation with many, many names of the villages.

19             Now you should continue.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  What we want to know is:  Did the corridor pass

22     through all those places, including Vukolin Stan?  Thank you.

23        A.   I don't know the exact names of those places.  I know that people

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9942

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6        Q.   Can you tell us whether --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we need a redaction again.  If you are

 8     continuing in that way, dealing with these personal things, we should go

 9     into a private session.

10             Is there a need for that, Mr. Tolimir?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  There is no need for

12     that.  I merely mentioned Vukolin Stan.  I even didn't want to say Stan

13     at the first mention.  I said Dol.  But then the witness said it.  So now

14     I don't want to repeat it.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I simply wanted to ask whether there was overnight accommodation

17     organised in this place?

18        A.   There was no sort of organised overnight accommodation.  You

19     know, people who had other people, friends, people who they knew,

20     acquaintances, then they could maybe spend the night there.  But there

21     was no sort of organised overnight accommodation, as far as I know.

22        Q.   Thank you.  This document also defines the route number 2 and

23     also the route under number 3.  I'm not going to read it all out.  I

24     don't want to burden the interpreters.

25             My question is:  Do you know that there were three routes used

Page 9943

 1     for moving of the supplies from Zepa to Srebrenica and the other way?

 2        A.   I don't know that.  I know the route that I used.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us which one of these three was that?

 4        A.   I went through the forest.  And I don't think I'm under an

 5     obligation to tell you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll tell you so that there is no

 8     delay in the proceedings.

 9             Excuse me, Your Honour, I don't want to delay the proceedings.

10     I'll tell everything.

11             What was my route?  I will tell you as far as I know, because I

12     don't know the names of all the places.  I didn't go there very often

13     before.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should first go into private session and then

15     we would appreciate if you could tell us.

16             MR. THAYER:  That was my suggestion as well, Mr. President.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9944

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back to open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Before we move on to the following topic, I want to ask you this:

18     Do you know anything about the conflict between UNPROFOR and the BiH army

19     because of the routes between Zepa and Srebrenica?  Because the Muslim

20     population did not allow UNPROFOR to use those routes.  Anything?

21        A.   I know nothing about it.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you said that you know something about the

23     fall of the military helicopter.  What do you know?

24        A.   I said that I only heard, I only heard, that the helicopter fell

25     and that two people survived.  Or maybe only one.  I am not sure.  That's

Page 9945

 1     all.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we must have the second break.  And

 3     during the break you should consider if you are tendering the two

 4     documents have you -- or three documents you have used which are not in

 5     evidence yet.

 6             Mr. Thayer.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             We were told by the Defence to keep the next witness on stand-by,

 9     ready to testify, in case the examination stopped suddenly.  We need a

10     good estimate, at least to know to whether to let this witness, who's

11     been on stand-by, go.  And also to find out whether the witness will be

12     able to leave tomorrow or whether we're going to keep him for another

13     day.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is your estimation of the time

15     you would need with the current witness?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             We announced four hours.  Now I don't know how it could have

18     happened that we said that the next witness should be ready, because I

19     certainly intend to use all four hours.  Now if this can be of any use to

20     Mr. Thayer, it is still my intention.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your estimation we received was

22     three to four hours.  This is different, just for the record.

23             Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  And, again, Mr. President, this is perhaps

25     attributable to the self-represented accused's situation, but, you know,

Page 9946

 1     we're relying on what we're told by his Legal Assistant, and that's all

 2     we can go on.  So, you know, it's just a fact of life.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 4             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this

 5     Defence always gives very reasonable estimates, and we intend to stick to

 6     them.  Bearing in mind the instructions from the Trial Chamber that there

 7     always should be a witness ready to testify, I have to say that sometimes

 8     we don't know how fast some things can be done with some witnesses.  For

 9     some witnesses, the same number of questions will last only one hour; and

10     for some other witness, you will need to use four hours.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is our experience as well, Mr. Gajic.

12             For sure today we will not commence the examination of the next

13     witness.  She should be released.

14             We must have our break now and resume quarter past 6.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, which documents are you going to

18     tender?

19             Mr. Gajic.

20             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

21     tender 1D582.  This is a letter from the Prosecution to the government of

22     a particular state.  And 1D586.  This is a document that we recently

23     showed the document [as interpreted]; it's an intelligence and security

24     report, Zepa 1993.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document 1D582 will be received under seal.

Page 9947

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit D161, admitted under seal.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The next one, 1D586; it will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  Your Honours, this document shall be

 5     assigned Exhibit D162.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the third document, Mr. Gajic?

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] This third document was the witness's

 8     statement.  We didn't use it to any large extent, so we don't believe

 9     it's necessary to tendered it as an exhibit.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, before the break, we talked about the fall of a

15     helicopter.  Could you please tell us when you heard about this?  When

16     was this?  What year, what month?  Thank you.

17        A.   I'm not sure about the exact date.  I heard about it sometime in

18     1994 or 1995, but I'm not sure about the date.  But I did hear about it.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have D96 in e-court so

21     that we could verify whether this is that document.  Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   We are going to have a look at this document which was put

24     together by the Zepa Brigade, and it was sent on the 7th of May, 1995,

25     from Zepa to the General Staff of the army, to Enver Hadzihasanovic, to

Page 9948

 1     Krekic, and to the 28th Division in Srebrenica, that is, their command,

 2     and Captain Ekrem Salihovic personally.

 3             My question is the following:  Did you know Ekrem Salihovic?

 4        A.   I didn't know him.

 5        Q.   Very well.  The document was signed by Avdo Palic.  We can see it

 6     now.  And it talks about a helicopter crash.  And it lists the names of

 7     the people who were killed in the helicopter.  And there's also a list of

 8     people who were injured.  I'm not going to read the whole thing.  Do you

 9     know anything about this?  Thank you.

10        A.   All I know is that a helicopter crashed and that two people

11     survived.  I also know that they were apparently bringing in medicine for

12     the outpatient centre.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know any of the people who survived?

14        A.   I didn't know any of them.

15        Q.   I'm referring to the injured.  You can see them at the bottom of

16     the list.  They were from the same place that you're from.  Thank you.

17        A.   I don't know any of them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether weapons and ammunition was

19     brought to Zepa in the helicopter?

20        A.   I don't know about that.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see document 1D488.

23     Thank you.  Thank you.  Could we please have 1D488 in e-court, please.

24     It's wrong.  Is it?  All right.

25             Could we have 1D481, please.

Page 9949

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You asked for one document.  You should wait

 2     until it comes up.  There's still ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told, Mr. Tolimir, that 1D488 is not in

 5     e-court.  The Registrar can't find it.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's why I asked for

 7     1D481, if possible.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   We can see a report by Major Dzevad Brgulja sent to the command

10     of the air force and the AA defence on the 16th of February, 1995, from

11     Zepa.  He is reporting to the command of the air force and the AA defence

12     and says:

13             "Aircraft unusable.  Crew members all right.  We can't make any

14     estimates.  We don't have any teams.  We request that you send a team to

15     Zepa with technical items, electrotechnical items, specialised items, and

16     all other items.  Pilot, Dzemal Malkic."

17             Thank you.  Now my question:  As this document was drafted on

18     16th of February, and we saw that the previous one was drafted in May,

19     did you know that throughout this time-period there was helicopter

20     communication between Srebrenica and Central Bosnia?  Thank you.

21        A.   No, I don't know about that.  When I was in Srebrenica in 1993,

22     during the humanitarian evacuation of the wounded by the ICRC, or UNHCR,

23     or the UNPROFOR helicopters, when people were injured at the playground.

24     An acquaintance of mine was killed that time.  Actually, he's my wife's

25     cousin and he was a civilian policeman.  And another elderly civilian

Page 9950

 1     policeman was wounded.  But I don't know about anything else.

 2        Q.   Very well.  I'm showing you a document from 1995.  I showed you

 3     two documents from January to June of 1995 and I have several others.

 4     Did you know that in that period helicopters frequently arrived, because

 5     as they fly over, civilians can hear it as well?

 6        A.   I didn't hear them, I didn't see them, and I don't know anything

 7     about this.  All I heard was that this one helicopter crashed and that

 8     two men survived.

 9        Q.   Very well.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have received this answer

11     already earlier.  The witness told you that he doesn't know anything

12     about frequent flights of helicopters.  Take that into account, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14             I would like now to show document number D16.

15             Thank you.  Could we please have document D16 in e-court.

16             Thank you.  Now we have it on the screen.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you please look at lines 7 and 8 and read them.  It says --

19     and this is a report sent by the Main Staff of the BH army to the

20     Srebrenica and Zepa brigade commands.  And it says:

21             "On 16 February 1995, the aggressor filed a request with UNPROFOR

22     to declare Zepa a non-demilitarised zone with the following rationale:

23     BH army helicopter flights supplying weapons and ammunition have been

24     registered ..."

25             Then after these items we have the next paragraph, which says,

Page 9951

 1     and I'm reading the paragraph after the items:

 2             "On the basis of the aforementioned, the aggressor informed the

 3     Sarajevo sector UNPROFOR command that unless Zepa was declared a

 4     demilitarised zone, they would start offensive combat operations within

 5     seven days.  The ultimatum is for 23 February 1995."

 6             And, finally, in the last paragraph, they discuss what you said:

 7             "In case a helicopter is activated, please consider that the

 8     helicopter was supposed to be used for the political representatives of

 9     Zepa --"

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand the end of

11     the sentence.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   As can you see, UNPROFOR was engaged in this.  Could you please

14     tell us what you saw and what you heard about the transportation of the

15     wounded by UNPROFOR.  Thank you.

16        A.   Sir, you didn't ask me the right question.  You're showing me a

17     document from 2005 [as interpreted] and you're talking about the

18     humanitarian lift of the wounded and the six and that was in 1993.  I

19     told you I saw that in Srebrenica.  My wife's cousin was injured in the

20     lower leg and a policeman was killed by a shell at the playground when

21     this humanitarian evacuation was taking place.  And I believe UNPROFOR

22     was carrying out this humanitarian evacuation.  I don't know -- you

23     didn't ask me the right question.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, I have to interrupt.  The document is not

25     from 2005 but from 1995, 17th of February.  Perhaps you just misspoke.

Page 9952

 1     That is possible.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  That was a slip of

 3     the tongue.  This is from 1995.  And I was talking about evacuation --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, sorry, but I didn't finish yet.

 5             It is up to the accused to make a choice which is the right

 6     question, and not your choice.  On the other hand, I would like to ask

 7     the accused if he really thinks that this witness is the right witness to

 8     comment on such a document.  We have heard so many answers of this

 9     witness about certain things, especially about helicopter flights, that

10     he just heard about one crash of a helicopter.

11             You should focus on these topics, as I told the OTP yesterday,

12     the witness is able to testify about.  You should focus on that.  You are

13     dealing with many things he was obviously not deeply involved in.

14             In the meantime, I was told that the document 1D488 is now

15     available in e-court.  There must have been a technical problem.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could the witness please tell me whether he knows that in 1992

20     the Main Staff was asking for the demililtarisation of Zepa and whether

21     he knows why that was being sought?  Thank you.

22        A.   Both Zepa and Srebrenica were demilitarised, as far as I know.

23     There was a proclamation that nobody was supposed to have any weapons and

24     UNPROFOR seized any weapons that they found.  That's what I know about

25     the weapons.

Page 9953

 1        Q.   Thank you.  But General Mladic was asking for demililtarisation

 2     because he thought it had not been done.  Is that how you understood this

 3     sentence that Hadzihasanovic was sending to Zepa?  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Before we get too much further along this line, I

 6     just want to make sure that everybody understands the dates that are

 7     being referred to here correctly.  I don't know if General Tolimir meant

 8     to say 1992 in his question at page 76, line 14, or whether he was

 9     talking about another year.  That -- if it was, then fine.  But if it's

10     not, then we might have some miscommunication, misunderstanding, between

11     the accused and the witness here.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This is helpful.

13             Were you referring to 1992, Mr. Tolimir?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  And I

15     was referring to 1995, February.  I probably said the wrong digits.

16             JUDGE MINDUA:  And, also, I think when the accused is talking

17     about the Main Staff, he means the Main Staff of the VRS.  Is it that?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's correct.  I was

19     referring to the Main Staff of the VRS which issued an ultimatum for the

20     demililtarisation of Zepa.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, I would like to rephrase the

22     question of Mr. Tolimir.

23             Witness, could you please tell the Chamber whether you know that

24     in 1995 the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb army was asking for the

25     demililtarisation of Zepa?

Page 9954

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that, because it

 2     was already a demilitarised zone.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Witness, and did you know that from this demilitarised zone

 8     attacks were carried out against the VRS and against the Serbian

 9     population around the demilitarised zone of Zepa?  Thank you.

10        A.   I don't know about that.  I didn't hear about that.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at document

13     1D358.  Thank you.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Now we can see the document.  You had an opportunity to glance

16     through it.

17             This is a document by the BH army, the 285th Zepa Brigade.  And

18     it's a combat report and was signed by Avdo Palic, which we'll see on

19     page 2 when we turn to page 2.

20             In paragraph 3, it says:

21             "From several sabotage groups, up to a squad strong, to a

22     reinforced platoon strong, and send these groups to the temporarily

23     occupied territory with the aim to inflict great losses to the enemy in

24     both manpower and technical equipment, and tie down the enemy, the

25     aggressor, with the fresh forces on a line of over 20 kilometres wide.

Page 9955

 1     The following sectors were where sabotage groups were to attack and make

 2     incursions," and then nine sectors are described.

 3             And under number 9 you can see the sector which was in your area.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What's the question?  What is your question?

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   My question is:  Did you know that units were sent from Zepa?

 7     And was anybody from your unit sent into sabotage actions mentioned here

 8     by Avdo Palic?  This document was drafted in June 1995.

 9        A.   I did not know about it.  When we are talking about the unit that

10     I was member of, that was immediately before the fall of Zepa.  I don't

11     know the exact date.  So it was already the time of fall of Zepa.

12     Abdeja [phoen], Vrata, Ribnica [phoen], Purtici.  I'm not aware that

13     there were any such activities.  At this time I was on Stublic,

14     immediately before the fall of Zepa, so I know nothing about this.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, may I put a question to you.  We, as the

17     Chamber, have a problem because we haven't received a translation yet.

18     We see there a list of nine items, all related to "grupa rejon."  Is that

19     something which has to do with a unit you were a member of?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's impossible.  Because when

21     Vratar was burning, when Vratar and Purtici were burning, then all the

22     population went away of their own free will.  I myself went to Stublici

23     so that people wouldn't break to our village.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was not my question.  Do you see the list of

25     "grupa rejon"?  I think this is referring to a kind of military unit; is

Page 9956

 1     that correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume so.  But I know nothing

 3     about this.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have you been a member of one of these nine

 5     units?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That was my question.

 8             Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10             Can we now have page 2 of this document so that we can see that

11     it was drafted by Avdo Palic.  Thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I would like the witness to take a look at the first paragraph on

14     this page.  Here, the author outlines the results, what happened after he

15     sent those groups into the territory of Republika Srpska.  I quote, first

16     paragraph:  "Around 40 Chetniks were killed.  Dozens were wounded.  A

17     significant quantity of infantry weapons were captured."

18             And further on:

19             "One aggressive soldier was captured in the zone of Vrana Kamen.

20     He was lightly wounded in the region of his lungs.  His maim is

21     Velimir Mrdjan, born 1975, lived in Glamoc."

22             My question is as follows:  Based on this report of Avdo Palic,

23     is it clear that sabotage groups were sent from Zepa into the territory

24     controlled by Republika Srpska and that they caused the losses mentioned

25     here?

Page 9957

 1        A.   I don't know anything about this here.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Is this report signed by Avdo Palic, and was it sent

 3     to his superiors, as we saw on the first page, in the command of

 4     the 1st -- of the 2nd Corps and the 28th Division?

 5        A.   It says here "Avdo Palic."

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you indicated that in your question

 7     if that was signed by Avdo Palic.  I don't see any signature.  I only see

 8     a typed name after Palic:  Komandant Pukovnik.  Just to have it clear on

 9     the record.

10             Mr. Thayer.

11             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, the accused is certainly

12     entitled to pursue his final hour or so of cross however he sees fit.

13     But, again, the witness has made clear what his involvement militarily

14     was.  He is being asked questions like: Can't you see that this has got

15     Avdo Palic's signature on it?  I mean, that's really wasting time.  We

16     can all see what's on it and --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, I have dealt with that just now.

18             MR. THAYER:  It's -- I appreciate that, Mr. President.  I just

19     think that we can shorten it up.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, have you, today, 15 minutes left.

21     You should use your time of cross-examination in the best way.  And the

22     Prosecution must have the opportunity for re-examination.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9958

 1        Q.   I would like the witness to say, do you know anything about

 2     combat activities carried out from Zepa towards the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska itself that took place in 1995

 4     before the attack on the enclave?

 5        A.   I know nothing about it.

 6        Q.   Was there any combat before the attack on the enclave in July?

 7        A.   There was shelling.  My cousin was killed in front of his house

 8     in 1994.  You know, this is something that the person manning the mortar

 9     could have seen with naked eye.  He killed my cousin.

10        Q.   So are you claiming that before the attack of the VRS on Zepa

11     there were absolutely no attacks carried out from Zepa onto the territory

12     controlled by Republika Srpska?

13        A.   I don't know anything about that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know anything about the military situation in

15     Zepa and the engagement in Zepa?

16        A.   Since I was not in the army until the fall of Zepa, I cannot say

17     anything about it.  When I was at Stublic, there was a general attack on

18     the enclave.  Apart from that, nothing.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D588.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] This is a list of units of the

22     Territorial Defence of the place where you lived in Zepa.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That should not be broadcast.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This list contains 136 names.

Page 9959

 1             I would like you to take a look at the last page, numbers 129 and

 2     136.  Thank you.

 3             Thank you.  Now we can see 129 and 136.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to go into a private session.  And the

10     last part should be redacted.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9960











11 Pages 9960-9964 redacted. Private session.















Page 9965

 1   (redacted)

 2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day

 4                           of February, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.