Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12609

 1                           Tuesday, 12 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.39 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom,

 6     especially to you, Ms. Lindsay, now on the other side of the room.

 7             Due to technical problems with a very important computer, we are

 8     sitting in another courtroom today, and we have a delayed start.  We will

 9     try not to lose too much courtroom time today, so that we should have

10     shorter breaks, only for 20 minutes each, and we will conclude our

11     hearing today, I think, shortly after 2.00 in the afternoon.

12             The witness should be brought in, please.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14                           WITNESS:  MOMIR NIKOLIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please sit down.

17             Good morning, sir.  Again, we have a late start --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- and sitting in another courtroom because of

20     technical problems in Courtroom III.

21             Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

22             Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             I would like to greet everybody, and I wish for this trial and

25     this day of trial to end in accordance with God's will, and not my will.

Page 12610

 1             I would also like to greet Ms. Lindsay and Mr. Nikolic, and I

 2     hope they are going to have a pleasant stay among us here.  Thank you.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, yesterday we looked at a document,

 5     D64.

 6             I would like to have D64 in e-court.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Nikolic, I think it's not necessary, but I

 8     have to remind you again that the affirmation to tell the truth still

 9     applies also today.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             We have the document now, "Strictly Confidential," "12th of

12     July," and I told you what it was about briefly because we were in a

13     hurry.  The document is about Muslims leaving Srebrenica and crossing the

14     territory controlled by the VRS.  They want everybody, including

15     able-bodied men, to cross through those corridors, and at the same time

16     they want to present the situation as if they were attacked by the VRS.

17     And we also ordered that everybody present in the Potocari base was

18     supposed to be registered, and that as large as possible a number of

19     persons should be captured.  So this document went to all the corps,

20     including the corps that controlled the territory of the evacuation.

21             We can see that this is a document that contains proposals to the

22     commanders of units whose territories were along the direction of the

23     evacuation of Muslims from Srebrenica.  They were supposed to capture

24     them and register them.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 12611

 1        Q.   Now, I would like you to tell us whether you knew that this

 2     document arrived and whether this document also arrived at your brigade.

 3     Thank you.

 4        A.   General, sir, when it's about specific documents, I can talk

 5     about them only based on what I see now.

 6             In those days, my command and my organ received an endless stream

 7     of information and documents.  Now I can see this document, and I see

 8     that it was addressed to all security/intelligence organs of all the

 9     brigades, including my brigade.  It arrived on the 12th -- or, rather, it

10     is dated the 12th of July.  As far as I can remember, on that day I was

11     duty officer, so that is one more reason to conclude that this document

12     arrived at my brigade, that I saw it, and that I knew its contents.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  Did you see that this document contains

14     a proposal to the commanders?  Did you, based on this proposal, propose

15     to your commander to register all men that were trying to leave

16     Srebrenica?  Thank you.

17             Can we have page 2 in e-court so that the witness could see it.

18     Thank you.

19             The proposal is on the first page, and on the second page,

20     towards the end, under the stamp, it says that it is necessary to

21     register all able-bodied men that are being evacuated from Potocari and

22     the UNPROFOR base there.

23             So did you, in line with this, propose to your commander that

24     they should be registered?

25        A.   I will answer this question in two parts; first, the part

Page 12612

 1     pertaining to all able-bodied men in Potocari that are mentioned in the

 2     document, itself.

 3             I am sure that I did not propose to my commander to register

 4     those persons.

 5             Now, as for this sentence under the stamp, that it is necessary

 6     to register all able-bodied persons that are being evacuated from the

 7     UNPROFOR base in Potocari, this could also have a different meaning.

 8     This could relate to another group of people; that is, the able-bodied

 9     Muslims who were in the UNPROFOR base and who are technical or other

10     personnel working in the base.

11             There is also another document, another query from my department,

12     that relates to the able-bodied men who were working as technical

13     personnel in the UNPROFOR base.  They were all of Muslim ethnicity, they

14     were all Bosniaks, and all the people who worked there were, I think

15     95 per cent of them, younger persons and able-bodied men.  This group,

16     the group that was in the UNPROFOR base, we queried about them, and we

17     received the answer related to them, their registration and their fate.

18             Now, this thing that you are asking me about now, I am almost

19     sure that I did not propose to my commander to register able-bodied men

20     in Potocari and in other locations on the 12th of July.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

22             Can we have the first page again.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Here we have the first page, and we see the fourth paragraph from

25     the bottom, where it says:

Page 12613

 1             "Organs for intelligence and security affairs attached to the

 2     brigade commands will propose to the commanders of the units positioned

 3     along the line of withdrawal of elements of the routed

 4     28th Muslim Division from Srebrenica to undertake all measures to prevent

 5     the withdrawal of enemy soldiers and to capture them."

 6             And then at the bottom, the last paragraph on this page:

 7             "Muslims wish to show that Srebrenica was demilitarised and that

 8     it contained only civilian population.  That's why they ordered their

 9     soldiers to evacuate and move from the area, cross the RS territory, and

10     reach the Muslim-controlled area ..."

11             Do you have any information that other units who were engaged in

12     co-ordinated action with you around Srebrenica registered those persons

13     that they captured on the positions where they were preventing their

14     evacuation?  Thank you.

15        A.   I don't have information that anybody was registering able-bodied

16     men.  To be honest, up to this moment I haven't seen any document along

17     that vein, or a document showing that somebody did register people, or a

18     document containing such names of able-bodied men.  I haven't seen such a

19     document, and I also haven't heard that anybody else organised this in a

20     planned manner.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether those who are pulling out

22     from the base in Potocari were registered in some way?  Do you know that?

23             Can we have the second page.

24        A.   When I was in Potocari while the separation was going on, I did

25     not see anybody registering individually people who were being separated.

Page 12614

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see, under the stamp, the following sentence:

 2             "It is necessary to register all able-bodied persons who are

 3     being evacuated from the UNPROFOR base in Potocari"?

 4             Do you see it, and can you tell me, was there any registration of

 5     able-bodied men who were leaving the base, because they were all

 6     civilians and they were all in the base?  Thank you.

 7        A.   General, sir, I have to correct you.

 8             You know, the fact is that they were not all in the base.  A

 9     large number of people was outside the base in various other buildings in

10     Potocari.  They were temporary accommodation facilities.  They were

11     buildings belonging to the former factory.  And captured people were all

12     around the place.  They were not all in the base.  That's simply not

13     true.

14        Q.   All right, thank you.  That's what you say.

15        A.   If you'd permit me just one more thing.

16             I know for sure, because I saw it, because I was there, I know

17     for sure that the people who were being evacuated on the 12th were not in

18     the base.  They were in the street, they were close to the base, and they

19     were within the factory perimeter in Potocari, they were in courtyards in

20     Potocari, because it was a large number of people.  My estimate is that

21     it was about 30.000 people.  They were all gathered there on the 12th

22     before the evacuation.  It's a huge number.

23             So I have to express one reservation.  Where I was, where I saw

24     the evacuation every time that I arrived there, I never saw that anybody

25     was being registered, that any lists were being made.  I really don't

Page 12615

 1     know anything about that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber:  These other

 3     facilities around the UNPROFOR base, the warehouse, the factory, was it

 4     also under the control of the UNPROFOR unit that was stationed there?

 5        A.   I can say what I know for sure, and that is that UNPROFOR

 6     controlled the building where it was accommodated.  I don't know what

 7     exactly you mean when you say "under its control," because if you follow

 8     that logic, we could say that it controlled everything within the

 9     enclave.  However, the actual situation at the time was such that the

10     UNPROFOR forces had their own base that was fenced, physically secure,

11     and I consider this building to be under the control of UNPROFOR.  All

12     other buildings were outside this perimeter, and they are not connected

13     in any way -- physically, they cannot connected to the UNPROFOR base.

14             Now, members of UNPROFOR were present there, they were there.

15     However, I saw that the UNPROFOR forces, as they were, and in the numbers

16     in which they were present there, were simply insufficient.  Even if they

17     wanted to secure all this, they were not able to secure it.

18             If you want to hear my opinion, I can tell you that all that

19     people, 30.000 of them, could not be physically secured and controlled.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I don't want to waste any more time.  We don't have

21     much time.  You said that you did not see any document relating to the

22     registration.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D152.  It should

24     not be broadcast outside the courtroom because it comes from a protected

25     witness.  I would like to take a look at page 3, paragraph 1, and the

Page 12616

 1     witness's name should not be revealed.  D152.  In Serbian and in English,

 2     page 3.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We can see it in the first paragraph:

 6             "I knew that it was Mladic because I recognised him, and I was

 7     told he would come.  I was about 10 to 15 metres from him when he gave a

 8     speech, standing by the side of the pitch.  He spoke without a megaphone,

 9     just normally, as it was very quiet.  He stated that he was

10     General Mladic, and said that we would all be exchanged, and that there

11     were hundreds of Serb lines between here and Tuzla, and that not even a

12     bird would be able to get through the lines.  He said we would be

13     organised into groups to collect all the bodies from the hills, and then

14     we would be taken to Bratunac to have lunch there.  He then chose five of

15     his men to begin making lists of our first and last names, which lasted

16     nearly an hour.  One person stood up ..."

17             And so on and so forth, end quote.

18             So, have you seen now the document in which a Prosecution

19     witness, a survivor, describes that there was registration at this

20     particular location?  Thank you.

21        A.   General, sir, I don't claim to have the right to comment the

22     statements of other witnesses.  This is what this witness said.  I'm not

23     disputing it.  I'm simply stating what I saw.  I'm not disputing it, and

24     I'm not going to comment on it.  If you insist that I should comment a

25     statement, then I would have to read the whole statement to see its whole

Page 12617

 1     content, because this way you can give me excerpts and segments on the

 2     statement which confirm what you are talking about.  I can tell you that

 3     I have not seen anybody carrying out any planned or organised

 4     registration, and I'm being very precise here.  I'm talking about taking

 5     down the names of the able-bodied men.

 6             Now, there were other registrations of a different kind, but

 7     while I was in Potocari, there was no registration individually by names

 8     of able-bodied men.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  Let us not waste any more

10     time about this.  You should bear in mind that it may have not been

11     carried out the way that it was proposed to be done in this document.

12             Now, first of all, talking about D64, the document we've seen a

13     moment ago, information distributed to all intelligence/security organs

14     and commands, D64, does it say anything else except the registration and

15     making of lists of people who are leaving the base in Potocari?  Thank

16     you.

17        A.   Of course, you directed me to certain paragraphs, and I did look

18     at them, but I should not like to make any hasty assessments about

19     whether something else is contained in those documents before I see them

20     in their entirety.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

22        A.   You directed me to the list or the registration.  If you want my

23     opinion, please give me time to see the entire document and I'll tell

24     you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since we don't have enough time, I

Page 12618

 1     abandon this question.

 2             Can we now display D41.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, although we have received another

 4     list of documents, D152 is not included in these lists; at least in my

 5     list.

 6             Mr. Thayer.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning.

 8             I think this is the second time that General Tolimir has referred

 9     to not pursuing a certain line of questioning because he claims he

10     doesn't have enough time.  Maybe the message didn't get through to him,

11     but I thought the Trial Chamber is pretty clear that we are going to sit

12     a little bit extra today, we are going to take shorter breaks.  And from

13     my calculations, from my math, that should provide the accused with more

14     than enough time even to accommodate the additional time that he's been

15     allocated, given the Prosecution's additional time in its

16     examination-in-chief.  So I want to disabuse -- or I would ask the

17     Trial Chamber, if the message wasn't received clearly enough, that the

18     accused should be disabused of the idea that he's got to hurry or abandon

19     lines of questioning because he's under some kind of time pressure which,

20     frankly, the Prosecution does not see.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was always a condition of the Chamber.  Only

22     one small correction.  We don't have additional time today, because we

23     started late and we just don't want to lose court time.

24             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

Page 12619

 1     you, Mr. Thayer.

 2             Could we now display D41 in e-court for the witness to see.  The

 3     document was used yesterday as well.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Since you saw the document yesterday, tell me -- in your

 6     statements, you said you had seen references to the Geneva Conventions

 7     somewhere in the document.  You said that somewhere in

 8     examination-in-chief.  In this document -- could we scroll down, please.

 9     This is a document from the Main Staff, dated 9 July, and the bottom part

10     says:

11             "In accordance with the order of the president of

12     Republika Srpska, issue an order to all combat units participating in

13     combat around Srebrenica to offer maximum protection and safety to all

14     UNPROFOR members and the civilian Muslim population.  Order subordinate

15     units to refrain from destroying civilian targets unless forced to do so

16     by strong enemy resistance.  Ban," that is to say "prohibit," "the

17     torching of residential buildings and treat the civilian population and

18     prisoners of war in keeping with the Geneva Conventions of 12

19     August 1949."

20             My question is:  Did you perhaps see excerpts from this document

21     that was sent to the Drina Corps, to Generals Gvero and Krstic, and

22     references to the Geneva Conventions of 1949?

23        A.   If I understood you correctly, you are asking me if I saw

24     excerpts related to the Geneva Conventions, or perhaps you're asking

25     whether I saw at the time this document referring to the

Page 12620

 1     Geneva Conventions.

 2        Q.   Tell us whatever you have seen, Mr. Nikolic.

 3        A.   This order, this document, I did not see before.  I can only

 4     assess documents if they had been sent to my organ.  Otherwise, there was

 5     a huge inflow of documents.  Whether I am familiar with

 6     Geneva Conventions as a teacher/instructor in Civilian Defence and

 7     Protection, I did have some knowledge about what the Geneva Conventions

 8     of 1949 imply, without knowing the details, but I can use those documents

 9     and I can find my way around them.  I can find out how certain issues are

10     regulated by Geneva Conventions.

11        Q.   Tell us, Mr. Nikolic, did your brigade drive out civilians from

12     their homes and bring them to Potocari, or did they come on their own?

13        A.   As far as I know, the units of my brigade did not drive out

14     civilians from their homes, for the simple reason that two battalions of

15     my brigade never moved from the lines where they were assigned, whereas

16     one additional battalion was introduced later on a certain axis.  I did

17     not have information then, and I do not have information now that anyone,

18     on that route belonging to my brigade, drove out civilians from their

19     homes.

20        Q.   By interviewing those who were able-bodied men who were

21     registered, did you gain information that able-bodied men took the road

22     to Susnjari, whereas women and children headed for Potocari?  Did you

23     have such information?  Did you work with such information?

24        A.   I was kept informed all the time during the combat operations,

25     and I knew that on the route where Serb forces were engaged and that as

Page 12621

 1     Serb forces were advancing, everyone else, able-bodied men and civilians,

 2     were withdrawing.

 3        Q.   Did civilians arrive at Potocari before the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Yes, the civilians were already there before the VRS came to

 6     Potocari.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now look at D002 in

 8     e-court.

 9             We don't see it yet.  It's a document of the Republic of Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina, their Main Staff, dated 12 July 1995, where they report

11     the number of Muslim soldiers on the base.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Look at line 5 from the bottom:

14             "They organised an attack at Potocari.  Around 11.00 p.m., we had

15     15.000 refugees sitting in the area of combat, together with 300 soldiers

16     of the BH Army on the base in Potocari."

17             Are these the people you mentioned earlier, people who were

18     able-bodied men and who are mentioned in this report by the Army of

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina to their president, Alija Izetbegovic, via the

20     1st Corps on the 12th of July?  Did you have the same information, and

21     did you mean those military-age, able-bodied men?

22        A.   As an intelligence man, I knew that there was a corps - that's

23     what I called it -- a commander of one of their units, one of their

24     brigades, and I knew there were military-aged, able-bodied men in

25     Potocari.  However, when I spoke about military-age, able-bodied men, I

Page 12622

 1     meant those who arrived together with civilians, those who came to

 2     Potocari together with their families, women and children.  And in my

 3     testimony over the past few days, I believe I once explained a point that

 4     I believe to be very important.

 5             When I'm talking about military-age, able-bodied men who found

 6     themselves among civilians, together with those who came into Potocari, I

 7     said, and I can say the same now, that it was my evaluation that a

 8     certain number of those people were not militarily engaged.  They were

 9     able-bodied men, but they were not part of the 28th Division, they were

10     not soldiers.  And I am still convinced that a rather large number of men

11     who arrived at Potocari were military age and able-bodied men, but they

12     were not members of the units of the 28th Division.

13        Q.   Thank you.  This registration of able-bodied men, and checking

14     their names against the list of those who had committed war crimes, was

15     that all in keeping with rules of warfare and military regulations?

16        A.   If we mean the same thing, General, and that is the so-called

17     triage after a military operation, I am aware that that is in keeping

18     with military regulations and with Geneva Conventions as well.  Triage,

19     itself, and separating those who are found to be on the list of suspected

20     war criminals, are not illegal acts.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  We've had a number of witnesses here who

22     testified that Muslim men were checked against the list of persons

23     suspected of having committed war crimes or any other crimes.  One of

24     them was Mr. Kingori, who was a military observer and who testified on

25     the 16th September 2010; page 5509 of the transcript.  I asked him:

Page 12623

 1             "When you saw that some sort of checking was going on and that

 2     Mr. Nikolic was going into a house with a list, did you see him checking

 3     against the list of suspects?"

 4             And his answer was:

 5             "I remember that I spoke about Mr. Nikolic, that he had been to

 6     the UNPROFOR base and checked whether some people were to be found on a

 7     list."

 8             And then comes my question:

 9             "Precisely.  Did you have access?  Did anyone stop you from

10     taking a look at the men who were being checked against those lists?"

11             And then Kingori answers:

12             "Yes.  I was there.  I was able to see him."

13             He means you:

14             "I was able to see him approaching those men.  He would call out

15     a name."

16             And then on page 55 -- I don't know which:

17             "He would approach that man and check him.  I think his main

18     purpose was to check whether that person was a soldier or not, because

19     the list was a list of persons whom they knew to be Muslim soldiers."

20             Let me read one more sentence by Kingori, and then I'll put my

21     question.

22             I asked him then:

23             "Did Nikolic single out any man who was under UNPROFOR control

24     after checking him against that list?"

25             And he answered:

Page 12624

 1             "If I remember well, I believe there was only one person that he

 2     singled out.  That one person was injured.  That's to the best of my

 3     recollection."

 4             And on page 5510, lines 1 to 10, he says:

 5             "Major Nikolic suspected, based on the list he had, that he was a

 6     soldier, and he took him away."

 7             That is what all the accusations boil down to, as made by various

 8     people against you, Mr. Nikolic.

 9             Now, my question is:  Do you remember what he is talking about,

10     and do you remember that one person was singled out because their name

11     was found in the list of those who were involved in the war in combat?

12        A.   I remember Mr. Kingori, and I know exactly who that person is.

13     We worked together.  I think we co-operated well, we worked well

14     together.

15             As for my engagement in inspecting/separating people and having

16     certain lists, what I would like to state here is that I did not have any

17     kind of list in that time that I used.  I didn't have any written names

18     or anything like that, in terms of somebody's membership of the

19     28th Division.

20             I did have in my office, as part of my activities, a record of

21     members of the 28th Division who, according to our information, had

22     committed certain crimes.  Amongst them, they were also charged for war

23     crimes.  But the list that I had was a list that was not dated on the

24     12th, nor was it used for that purpose.  That list existed from 1992 and

25     was constantly updated.  It was not a final list until the end of the --

Page 12625

 1     the fall of the enclave.  Even then, it was not a final list.  When I

 2     handed it over to the Institute for War Crimes in Belgrade, I gave it to

 3     Mr. Ivanisevic.  I think that Mr. Ivanisevic still has a list of those

 4     people.

 5             When we're talking about separating people, I know very well in

 6     one instance what it's about, and I think that Mr. Kingori made a mistake

 7     about the location and the officers who separated that person.  We're

 8     talking about one member of the Muslim armed forces.  I don't know his

 9     exact name right now.  I have that record in my documents.  That person

10     was separated by the State Security Service, and the State Security

11     Service, after separating that person, moved the person to the

12     Zvornik Security Centre and processed him after that.

13             The next person who was separated that I know of, but I think

14     that he was not an active-duty member of the armed forces in Srebrenica,

15     was Mr. -- I will remember his name.  He's a politician.  Later, he was a

16     deputy in the National Assembly, Ibrahim Mustafic.  That's the man who

17     was separated.  But, once again, Ibrahim Mustafic was not separated by

18     the army or anybody from the security organ, but he was separated by

19     people from the State Security Service.  And I think that

20     Zlatan Celanovic also had a part in this separating of Ibrahim Mustafic.

21     I think that, as far as I know, he recognised him and then they singled

22     him out.

23             What I want to say here, for the sake of the truth, is that one

24     single time when I came to the base, they asked me to check a group of

25     people, and that was when the Dutch Battalion was supposed to leave the

Page 12626

 1     base, and the base -- the technical personnel who worked at the base was

 2     also supposed to leave together with DutchBat.  At the time, I said that

 3     we did have a position on that.  I knew what our position was, and that

 4     those people should leave together with members of DutchBat, and there

 5     was no need for me to carry out any kind of check.  I saw those people at

 6     the base.  I didn't make any kind of check, inspection, or did not

 7     separate anyone.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I please put a short question to the witness

10     just to understand something more precisely.

11             On page 16, lines 18 and the following, you were talking about a

12     list.  You said:

13             "I did have in my office, as part of my activities, a record of

14     members of the 28th Division."

15             Could you please tell me who compiled this list, and from whom

16     did you get it?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the intelligence/security organ,

18     I was monitoring and recording and investigating crimes that were

19     committed by the 28th Division or by the Muslim side against units --

20     members of my unit as well as against civilians.

21             For example, in 1992, there was an attack on the village of

22     Kravica.  After that attack, as the person who is supposed to deal with

23     that question, I recorded the casualties on the Serbian side, and then I

24     did a classification saying 20 soldiers and 3 civilians were killed.

25     Then later, in my work, by questioning detainees and by gathering other

Page 12627

 1     intelligence data from other structures, I learned the names of those

 2     who, according to statements, could possibly be the perpetrators of these

 3     crimes.  If I had any indications that those persons did commit crimes, I

 4     would place them on the list of those who could potentially be the

 5     perpetrators of a given crime.

 6             And then I recorded the combat actions that were carried out on

 7     territory under the control of Serbian forces, and where certain crimes

 8     were committed, and I did that covering the period practically until the

 9     fall of the enclave.  I did it according to periods 1992, 1993, 1994,

10     1995, and I did this on the basis of statements, on the basis of gathered

11     information, on the basis of exchanged information, on the basis of

12     information by collaborators, on the basis of information of those who

13     switched sides, fled to the other side with their whole family.  Based on

14     all of that information, I placed certain persons on that list, and that

15     was the method that I used to come to that.

16             And Celanovic, Zlatan, this lawyer, was helping me to do this

17     work, and in the bulk of the cases he's the one who did the

18     investigations, who interviewed the witnesses.  He helped me in my work.

19     And each time when he interviewed or questioned a certain person, a

20     detainee, somebody who had fled to the other side, if there was a name

21     that was given at such a time, we would place that name on the list of

22     potential perpetrators of crimes.  That was the way we worked in my

23     brigade.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that explanation.

25             That means you and some of your colleagues were the authors of

Page 12628

 1     this list.  You compiled this list according to the information you

 2     received during your work; correct?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The list that was in my office was

 4     drafted in the way that I described.  I know that it turned up -- a list

 5     turned up on the 12th.  I know that.  But that list had the heading of

 6     the Bratunac Brigade.  The date was the 12th.  There was no signature, no

 7     stamp, no nothing.  And I assert that I did not see that list, and I

 8     don't know who drafted it.  I know that there was such a list.  However,

 9     that is not the identical list that I had in my office.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The list you had in your office was a list you

11     personally compiled; is that correct?  That is my understanding of your

12     answer.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is a list that I drafted.

14     That was always in my office, and that was handed over -- actually, to be

15     more precise about this, the names of potential perpetrators of crimes

16     were given and informed about to the State Security organs who were doing

17     the same type of work.  The final list for that period is with

18     Mr. Ivanisevic at the Institute for War Crimes in Belgrade, because he

19     was the one who was dealing with those matters, he investigated only war

20     crimes, and I felt that it was my responsibility to hand this list over

21     to him.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Tolimir, please -- Mr. Thayer first.

24             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Before we close this sub-chapter and while we're on the topic, I

Page 12629

 1     notice that at page 18, line 17, when the witness was describing an

 2     attack on Kravica, he referred to a year of 1992.  And we've heard a lot

 3     of testimony about the attack on Kravica on Orthodox Christmas

 4     January 7th of 1993.  And just so we have a clear, accurate record, I

 5     would just ask if the witness could clarify whether that's a different

 6     attack that he was referring to when he said "1992" or whether he

 7     misspoke, just so we can have it clear, what he's talking about, and

 8     I can maybe save a little time so I don't have to go back on redirect, as

 9     long as we're here on the topic.  Again, it's at page 18, line 17.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In my view, the answer was very clear,

11     Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:  All right.  Well, then I'll deal with it in

13     redirect, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, fine.

15             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  I didn't wish to interrupt you while you

18     were talking about this because I felt that you had a need to respond to

19     charges directed at you, and I asked you to talk about this topic.

20             On the 6th of April of this year, the Prosecutor asked you, on

21     page 12401 and 12402, about Mr. Rase [phoen] who was also questioned here

22     by Mr. Celanovic at your office.  Can you please tell me if you made any

23     kind of threats against Mr. Celanovic, or did you, in those

24     circumstances, make sure that Mr. Celanovic was treated correctly?

25     Sinanovic, Sinanovic.  I apologise, it's Sinanovic.

Page 12630

 1        A.   Yes, this is what I wanted to point out.

 2             All that I did in the Sinanovic case, I am now stating here

 3     before this Trial Chamber that I would do exactly the same thing in

 4     relation to any other prisoner of war.  I took him over.  He was on the

 5     list of potential perpetrators of war crimes specifically relating to the

 6     operation in the village of Bjelovac.  We had him on our records.  I took

 7     him over.  I brought him to the Bratunac Brigade Command, to the police,

 8     handed him over to the authorised person who was authorised by the

 9     commander to investigate, to question, to find out if there were any

10     indicia.  And I do not see anything there where I made a mistake or

11     should have acted differently.  I did what I would have done in any other

12     case, and I would do it again.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  Please, as the security organ, did you

14     also ask your security organs in the brigade and ask Mr. Celanovic, who

15     was authorised by the commander to investigate such crimes, to work

16     professionally, all of you, and did you mistreat anyone?  Thank you.

17        A.   Those who were detained and were brought to my brigade, that I

18     know of, were people that I never saw mistreated in any way.  I never

19     permitted any of my people to mistreat any of the prisoners.  I wouldn't

20     do it for my own sake, and I believe that the people who were working

21     there were working and doing what they should have been doing, and

22     I think that they were working well.  As far as I know, nobody who was

23     brought into my brigade was ever beaten, abused, or mistreated.  They

24     were correctly treated.  They were interrogated.  And for the benefit of

25     the Trial Chamber, the Bratunac Brigade didn't have any kind of detention

Page 12631

 1     facility or a prisoner -- prison.  We did the best we could.  We did

 2     question prisoners at the Bratunac Brigade, and after that we would ask

 3     the superior command for instructions as to what to do with them.  And

 4     then we would act pursuant to the orders that came, because, I repeat,

 5     there was no prison at the Bratunac Brigade.  We would keep the people

 6     until they were processed, until they were interrogated, and until we

 7     received instructions about what to do with them.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 9             Please, can we now look at P1143.  Thank you.

10             While we are waiting, I just want to say this was on the 2nd of

11     September, 1992.  It's a statement to NIOD, given by Mr. Egbers, who was

12     a witness in this case.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1999.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2 of P11143

15     [as interpreted] - that's an exhibit - so that we can see what he says.

16     This is paragraph 287 on page 27.  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You probably know Mr. Egbers.  He was an UNPROFOR soldier in

19     Potocari.  He states that he also had contacts with each of the sides.

20             287, thank you.

21             Paragraph 287.  Yes, we can see it in the English, and now we're

22     going to see it in the Serbian.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

24             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I can help a

25     little bit.

Page 12632

 1             This number has three versions of the document; in Dutch, in

 2     English, and in Serbian.  Now we're seeing it in the Serbian.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.  We can see

 4     287.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Egbers says:

 7             "No.  But one thing about Nova Kasaba is mentioned.  I have it

 8     here before me.  It says, 'Thursday, 13th of July.  At least one of the

 9     convoys was stopped at the football field in the surroundings of

10     Nova Kasaba.  The BSA set up a place there where able-bodied men were

11     gathered.  A number of men were allowed to get in the buses and were

12     transferred to Kladanj.'"

13             Then in paragraph 288, he continues:

14             "Yes.  That was another convoy.  I was not with it, but I did

15     hear the story that some men were allowed to get in the buses.  Maybe

16     they were friends, or acquaintances, or something like that."

17             I am going to put the question to you after Mr. Thayer says what

18     he wants to say.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think we need to be accurate for

21     the record.

22             Paragraph 287 is not Ms. Egbers' words.  That is the -- those are

23     the words of the questioner who was putting that as a question to

24     Mr. Egbers.  And we went through this when Mr. Egbers came and testified,

25     Mr. President.  The italicised text are the questions and the

Page 12633

 1     non-italicised text is the answer.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was my observation as well.  You see

 3     different writing, and one person is asking questions, the other person

 4     is answering.

 5             Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  I'll just wait for the next question, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, is it correct that only

 8     paragraph 288 is the answer of Mr. Egbers?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct, Mr. President.  I

10     read both the question and the answer.  The question is 287, and the

11     answer is 288.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And now, please, the question for the witness.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, did you have information or knowledge that some

15     buses were stopped along the way, that some prisoners were put in the

16     buses, like in this example in Nova Kasaba, and that there were cases of

17     friends putting their friends on the buses and sending them straight to

18     Kasaba?  We also saw that at check-points, there were also people who

19     were putting people on the buses, regardless of who they were?  Thank

20     you.

21        A.   I really don't know what was going on in the territory of Milici.

22     Kasaba is the territory of Milici, controlled by the Milici Brigade.

23     I can only speak for myself.

24             Yes, I did that, I did help some of my friends.  I put them in

25     the bus in Potocari, and everybody knew it.  Whether some people in the

Page 12634

 1     Milici Brigade were doing the same thing, I wouldn't know.  Whether they

 2     used to stop buses at the check-points, I also don't know that, and I

 3     have no information about it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now we see the words of Mr. Egbers on the screen, so

 5     let us also read paragraph 292, where he says -- 292, can we have that in

 6     Serbian as well.  It's page 28.  Thank you.

 7             Where he says the following:

 8             "No.  Yes.  Right.  When we stopped by that bus that was burning,

 9     you could see also that the Muslims and the Serbs, who had lived together

10     for a number of years before that, still knew each other and were still

11     on friendly terms.  They hugged each other.  I can very well imagine - it

12     was such chaos - somebody saying, 'These Muslims you just have to stay

13     alive,' stopping a bus and putting these men in it.  That's possible."

14             So this is also what Mr. Egbers said.

15             My question is:  If you helped some of your friends, do you allow

16     for the possibility that other people at other places, if they had the

17     possibility to do so, also helped some other people, and that's how some

18     people were put on the buses at the check-point in Nova Kasaba?  Thank

19     you.

20        A.   I allow for this possibility, and there is a logical explanation

21     for it.  We used to live together, all of us, beginning with me and

22     including all other people.  We socialised, we had friends among the

23     Bosnians, we were neighbours, we went to school together, we worked

24     together, we played sports together, and many other things.  So it's

25     perfectly normal.

Page 12635

 1             I have to emphasise one thing here.  Those who did not have any

 2     victims, any losses in their families, those whose houses were not set on

 3     fire, whose property was not destroyed, those people did not have some

 4     additional motive to hate the Bosniaks.  I can say for myself that I had

 5     friends among the Bosniaks both before the war and after the war.  I

 6     didn't hate that people, and I still do not hate those people.  I'm now

 7     speaking about myself, but I do allow for the possibility that there are

 8     other people in Kasaba, Milici, and Vlasenica and elsewhere who had

 9     friends whom they wanted to help.  But in order to avoid any

10     contradiction, yesterday I also said that a large number of people, a

11     large number of families, experienced losses.  They lost their children,

12     the members of their families, their property was destroyed, and those

13     people truly felt hatred and intolerance.  That's very indicative.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  Do you remember that you stated, in the

15     interview conducted by the OTP, that on the first day, there was no

16     separation, and that you spend only about 10 minutes there at that place

17     where the evacuation was being carried out, together with Jankovic, and

18     that after that you left for your unit?  Thank you.

19        A.   If I remember my statements correctly, and I gave a number of

20     statements, I was there at the beginning, when the first convoy was

21     supposed to leave.  It is true that in that first convoy, there were some

22     men, and there was no separation in the manner that the separation was

23     carried out later.  So I claim what I saw.  In the first convoy, men,

24     women, children, complete families were admitted, but that is true only

25     for the first convoy.  Later on, they began to separate all the men who

Page 12636

 1     tried to leave.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  I just wanted you to confirm what you

 3     said and to confirm what Mr. Egbers said.  He escorted the convoy from

 4     Srebrenica to Tuzla.

 5             Can we raise the text so that we can see paragraph 296, where he

 6     says:

 7             "Yes.  But in the beginning, there was no selection.  In the

 8     beginning, they let everybody in.  Only later did they start to select

 9     people; on the second day."

10             So Mr. Egbers confirms this.

11             Please, while we are on the subject, I would like to ask you to

12     take a look -- or maybe we don't even have to look at it.

13             Do you remember, is it correct that you separated only about 600

14     to 650 able-bodied men in Potocari, as opposed to that other huge number

15     mentioned by you?

16        A.   Yes, I can confirm that that's approximately the number.  So out

17     of approximately 30.000 people present in Potocari, according to my

18     estimate, then during those two days, 600, 650, or maybe 700 men were

19     separated.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

21             Now, let us take a look at 65 ter 7280, a Prosecution document,

22     page 11 in Serbian and 11 and 12 in English, line 8 to 13.

23             Here in line 8, you say:

24             "Around 650 during both days."

25             And then the investigator asks you:

Page 12637

 1             "Both days?"

 2             And you say:

 3             "Yes, the 13, or, rather, the 12th and the 13th.  The first day,

 4     between 300 and 350, the next day between 600 and 650.  I'm not sure, but

 5     this is the approximate number."

 6             Then the investigator says:

 7             "Around 650 people in both days?"

 8             And you say:

 9             "Both days.  So the first day, what I just said, and then the

10     next day there was again the process of separation."

11             And then in line 13, he says:

12             "Between 600 and 650."

13             Now that you remember this interview, my question is:  Was that

14     the total number of people separated from the mass?  Were they handed

15     over to the military police in Bratunac later on?  Thank you.

16        A.   Yes, I can confirm that this is the correct number that I stated

17     earlier.  Later on, they were transferred to facilities for temporary

18     detention.  And they were secured there, among others, by the military

19     police, but it wasn't only the military police.  The civilian police was

20     also engaged in securing this facility.

21        Q.   Thank you for this supplement, Mr. Nikolic.  Now that we are on

22     the subject, do you remember whether people were brought to you from

23     other locations?  Were those people also brought to Bratunac?  Thank you.

24        A.   General, sir, if you are referring to the 12th and the 13th, then

25     my answer is, yes, people were being brought from other locations, and

Page 12638

 1     they were also accommodated in those buildings.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Before we move on to the next question:  On the 3rd

 3     of November, Mr. Baraybar testified here.  On the page 7219 of the

 4     transcript, lines 18 to 20, he said the minimal number of exhumed bodies

 5     from the mass graves was 2.541.  In the summary of the testimony of

 6     Mr. Baraybar in the Popovic case, the Prosecutor stated that at least

 7     2.541 people were exhumed.  It means that he confirmed this number.  The

 8     exhumations were carried out between 1996 and 2001.

 9             So considering this number, that's the number of people exhumed

10     by the International Tribunal, whose representative Mr. Baraybar was,

11     could you tell us whether that's the approximate number of people who

12     were brought to you in Bratunac from various locations?  Thank you.  Or

13     was it maybe a lesser number?

14        A.   General, sir, I really know nothing about the numbers that you're

15     quoting.  I can only say that it was really very difficult to assert the

16     precise number or even an approximate number of people brought to

17     Bratunac.  I know where they were accommodated, I know what the situation

18     was like, and I know where, in the town, they were.  So besides the

19     facilities I mentioned earlier, the town of Bratunac was full of buses

20     and trucks in all the parking spaces in all the streets, including the

21     parking in front of the municipality building, so it is really very

22     difficult to determine the exact number.  We are talking here about a

23     large number of buses and trucks.  They were coming in all the time, and

24     people were put up in the facilities that had been designated for that

25     purpose.  So I don't know the number.  There were many of them.  I didn't

Page 12639

 1     count them, and I didn't register the people being brought in, and I

 2     really cannot answer your question in any precise way.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Since you are testifying here and you are the witness

 4     who had most information about the situation in Bratunac, I wanted to ask

 5     you because maybe you've discussed the number with the Prosecutor's

 6     office.

 7             My question is:  Bearing in mind what you stated yesterday on

 8     page 79, lines 3 to 5, answering the question from Judge Nyambe, and I'm

 9     not going to repeat the question because your answer was approximately

10     similar to your present answer, but then you mentioned that your estimate

11     was based:

12             "... also on the count of all the people separated in Potocari

13     and all the people who were detained and brought in Bratunac."

14             So bearing in mind your yesterday's answer and what you just said

15     now, bearing in mind that you also went to Zvornik, do you remember

16     whether that number was larger than the number mentioned by Mr. Baraybar?

17     Was it larger or smaller than 2.541?  Thank you?

18        A.   I can only describe what I saw, and maybe that could be the basis

19     for your estimate, just as mine.  I wasn't going into details, but let me

20     give you an example.

21             The convoy that left Bratunac on the 14th carrying the prisoners

22     was about two kilometres' long.  Mostly, it consisted of buses.  So if we

23     look at the transport from the school, then we can see that the convoy

24     was approximately two kilometres' long.  Now, how many people could have

25     been in that convoy?  Bearing in mind that one convoy left Bratunac

Page 12640

 1     towards Drina and Zvornik before that day, then I really don't know what

 2     the number could be.  Maybe that number is higher, according to my

 3     assessment, which means that the total number of persons who left

 4     Bratunac could be slightly higher.  But I'm really not sure.  I am just

 5     speculating.  I don't know.  I told you the size of the convoy, I told

 6     you what I know.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir --

 8             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to interrupt you for a moment

10     to correct the transcript.

11             On page 29, lines 22 through 24, you put to the witness the

12     testimony of Mr. Baraybar, and you said:

13             "On the 3rd of November, Mr. Baraybar testified here.  On

14     page 7219 of the transcript, lines 18 to 20, he said ..."

15             In fact, that part of the transcript was the summary of the

16     Prosecutor and not the testimony of Mr. Baraybar, just to correct that.

17             Please carry on.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  That's

19     quite right, and thank you for correcting the transcript.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I just wanted to ask the witness:  Do you think it's close to

22     that number, 2.541, as Baraybar said?  Is that the minimum number?  Is

23     that the number you meant in your previous answer?

24        A.   Yes, I said I really don't know the number.  But if that's the

25     number determined by experts, I really have no reason to doubt it.  I,

Page 12641

 1     myself, wouldn't know.  I don't want to guess.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  I don't have any more questions about

 3     this.

 4             Could we now move to the issue of --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you used 65 ter 7280, which is not

 6     on the list of documents you wanted to use with the witness.  What shall

 7     happen with this document?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             This document was on the Prosecution list, and that's why we used

10     it.  We thought that once it was proposed by the Prosecution, it may be

11     used by the Defence as well.  And we would like to have it admitted, if

12     there is no objection.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Firstly, Mr. Tolimir, the list -- the purpose of

14     a list of documents to be used during cross-examination is to enable the

15     other party and the Chamber to prepare for the examination.  It should be

16     a complete list.  Of course, we received long lists of documents of the

17     Prosecution, but if you want to use some of these, you should include

18     them in your list.

19             Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I just want to note that -- and

21     Mr. Nikolic is no different from a lot of witnesses who have a lot of

22     prior testimony and prior statements.  In order for either party to be

23     able properly to cite to a page or put it up on e-court, of course we

24     have to give it a 65 ter number and it needs to be up-loaded in e-court

25     so that we could do that mechanically.  That doesn't mean automatically

Page 12642

 1     that the Prosecution wants to introduce every single prior statement,

 2     transcript of testimony, for every witness for whom it puts these things

 3     on its witness list.  It's a matter of mechanics, being able to work with

 4     these documents, should the need arise.

 5             With respect to this transcript, for example, I would just note

 6     that it's 130 -- 140 pages in the English and 142 in the B/C/S.  I think

 7     the accused cited from three or four lines from one page, which the

 8     witness confirmed.  Again, for us it's, generally speaking, the more the

 9     merrier, but, on the other hand, it is a huge document to up-load for the

10     purpose of three or four lines which the witness has confirmed.  But I

11     just wanted to make that observation that simply because we have

12     something on our list of exhibits doesn't mean it's something we

13     necessarily want to tender at the end of the day.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this explanation.

15             Mr. Tolimir, is it perhaps possible just to tender this page of

16     the document instead of more than 140?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             We only started examining on this document.  We still have time.

19     If we were to stop here, we could perhaps ask for that page, but we will

20     continue going through that statement.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's fine.  Please continue.

22             Perhaps it's -- I heard your comment.  I think it's a good time

23     for our first break, and we will resume at half past 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.07 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

Page 12643

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, to move from this subject of prisoners of war on, I

 4     would like to take you back to that part of the examination-in-chief

 5     where you said that there occurred a disagreement between the civilian

 6     authorities and the members of the army at the meeting which you attended

 7     about whether the prisoners of war should stay in Bratunac or be moved.

 8     Do you recall that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you:  Did the representative of the army

11     at that meeting advocate that they should stay in Bratunac, while the

12     civilian authorities wanted them moved to Zvornik?

13        A.   Yes.  From what I heard, the civilian authorities wanted the

14     prisoners to be moved to Zvornik from Bratunac, whereas the

15     representative of the army advocated that they should stay in Bratunac.

16        Q.   My question is:  Was that perhaps influenced by the meeting in

17     Belgrade on the 14th, attended by General Mladic, among others, who

18     insisted that all prisoners of war should be registered and visited by

19     the ICRC?

20        A.   General, I don't see much sense in what you're asking.  I really

21     don't know about that meeting in Belgrade on the 14th.  I know nothing

22     about it.  But all those who were captured in Bratunac had already been

23     moved to Zvornik on the morning of the 14th.  The convoy had left on the

24     morning of the 14th.  But I really don't know about that meeting in

25     Belgrade.

Page 12644

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see D3 in e-court.  It's my

 2     fault that I didn't show it to you before, Witness.  It's a statement of

 3     Major General Elliott, secretary to Mr. Carl Bildt.  Once we see the

 4     document, and it's on the screen now, we'll see the second paragraph.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You see it's the statement of Major-General Elliott.  It says:

 7             "I'm a professional officer of the British Army and hold the rank

 8     of major-general."

 9             Now, paragraph 2:

10             "On 14 July 1995, I travelled to Belgrade with Mr. Bildt,

11     General De Lapresle (another military adviser to Mr. Bildt) and others.

12     Mr. Bildt attended a meeting with President Slobodan Milosevic of the

13     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia between approximately 1300 and 1700 hours.

14     At the conclusion of the meeting, Mr. Bildt debriefed the other members

15     of his delegation, including myself, on issues relating to his meeting

16     with President Milosevic.  Later that same evening, at approximately 1900

17     hours, Mr. Bildt and General De Lapresle met with President Milosevic and

18     General Ratko Mladic, commander of the Main Staff of the

19     Bosnian Serb Army.  This meeting concluded at approximately 2200 hours on

20     14 July 1995."

21             My question:  Since this gentleman is referring to that meeting,

22     and you know that meetings are always prepared and planned, do you allow

23     the possibility that Mr. Mladic was informed in advance that this demand

24     would be made and that he had conveyed it to Mr. Beara, and could it be

25     possible that it is because of this that Beara demanded that they should

Page 12645

 1     stay in Bratunac?

 2        A.   I think you're asking me to do something that I don't want to go

 3     into; namely, speculation, guess-work.  You're asking me, Is it possible?

 4     Everything is possible, including what you say, but I don't know that.

 5     So, yes, it's possible, but I don't know anything about it.  I didn't

 6     have that information.  I knew nothing about that.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 8             Could we now look at P192, paragraph 17.  And that's the

 9     statement made by General Rupert Smith to the representatives of NIOD on

10     the 12th of January, 2000.  It's P192, paragraph 17.  It's D192,

11     paragraph 17.  Thank you.

12             Could we see paragraph 17 of this statement.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Line 4 from the bottom:

15             "As Mladic said, all this happened quite unexpectedly."

16             This refers to the fall of Srebrenica.  The sentence before

17     reads:

18             "The BiH Army fled, and Mladic, with his troops, found himself in

19     the centre of Srebrenica.  He was sorry about the death of one Dutch

20     soldier.  He was enraged about the air-bomb that nearly missed -- that

21     nearly hit him, and Smith said later, 'I'm sorry I missed you.'  Mladic

22     said that men were being captured as prisoners, and Smith said to that

23     that they couldn't all be soldiers.  Eventually, Mladic gave permission

24     for the ICRC to visit the prisoners.  At the time, he was not concerned

25     about the reports that the BSA had separated men and women in Srebrenica,

Page 12646

 1     as the BH Army did exactly the same when they captured large villages.

 2     At that time, there was no knowledge of the mass killings."

 3             And so on.

 4             It says here that Mladic was surprised by the fall of Srebrenica,

 5     it was unexpected, and you said the same in your statement.  You said the

 6     VRS was surprised, taken aback, by the fall of Srebrenica.  Is it exact

 7     that everyone, including the UNPROFOR, was taken by surprise by the

 8     sudden fall of Srebrenica and the gathering of large masses of people in

 9     the base in Potocari?

10        A.   I can only speak in my own name.  I, as an officer of the

11     Bratunac Brigade, was surprised by the way in which Srebrenica fell.  And

12     later, when talking to other people, other officers, they turned out to

13     share the same opinion.  All the prior knowledge and all our prior

14     evaluations about Srebrenica and what is contained in there, the

15     conclusion was that it fell very quickly and with much smaller losses

16     than could be expected, in view of the situation.

17        Q.   And then we see the last bit of this paragraph 17:

18             "Eventually, Mladic gave permission for the ICRC to visit the

19     prisoners."

20             Did representatives of the ICRC come to Bratunac following this

21     approval, and did they display any interest in the prisoners?

22        A.   What I know for a fact is that the ICRC came to visit the

23     wounded, but I have no information that the ICRC visited those who were

24     detained in those installations and had the status of prisoners.  In

25     other words, I know that the ICRC came to the area of Srebrenica and

Page 12647

 1     Bratunac.  I know that it was Colonel Jankovic and the physician of the

 2     Dutch Battalion who contacted the ICRC, and they were also the ones who

 3     supervised the wounded.  And I know that it was in the organisation of

 4     the ICRC that the wounded were evacuated.

 5        Q.   So they were moved between the 13th and the 14th, and you said

 6     the military wanted them to stay in Bratunac and the civilian authorities

 7     wanted them moved.  Was there anyone at that meeting who said -- who

 8     resisted the idea of them staying in Bratunac, who wanted them moved to

 9     other locations?

10        A.   Nobody said they didn't want them registered in Bratunac.  It's

11     as I said.  Miroslav Deronjic was adamant that they should be moved from

12     Bratunac.  That's what I heard with my own ears, and that's what I can

13     testify to.  I was saying, in a different context, when they quarrelled,

14     both sides invoked the instructions received from their superiors as to

15     the status of the people detained in Bratunac, but I don't remember

16     hearing anyone opposing a registration of those detained.  It's possible

17     that somebody said that, but not in my hearing.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             For the record, I must say that we were discussing what was said

20     on transcript page 12416, lines 12 to 14, and 1 to 7, and 46, all the way

21     up to page 12424.

22             When we look at page 12421 to page 12424, I don't want to quote

23     from the transcript, not to waste time.  It's a decision -- a meeting

24     that was held on the SDS premises.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you help me.

Page 12648

 1             Are you referring to the page numbers of another trial?  And if

 2     so, which one?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I asked the question

 4     based on the conversation that took place at the headquarters of the SDS,

 5     attended by Beara, Lasic and Deronjic.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it was a very precise question.  You

 7     gave a page number, and I wanted to know from which document from which

 8     case.  That's all.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             I'm quoting transcript from the examination-in-chief of this

11     witness.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters kindly request that the microphone

14     be pushed a bit to the right, the left-hand microphone.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, the Prosecutor asked you about 65 ter 728.  The

17     Prosecutor asked you whether you were conveying information first to the

18     security organs and only then to your commander, and you said that you

19     would always inform your commander first, and that you never informed the

20     security organs first and your commander only later.  Do you remember

21     that?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have just mentioned 65 ter 728.

24     I think that was a mistake.  Perhaps you were referring to 65 ter 7280.

25     I have no idea.  Look on the screen.  There is a certain document.  I

Page 12649

 1     don't know if that is the right one.  Please check the number.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             You're right, 7280, yes, 7280.  I also noticed that something was

 4     amiss.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, was there a general principle in force in

 7     security/intelligence organs that they should inform first their

 8     immediate superiors, their commanders, and then after that the

 9     appropriate commands?  Thank you.

10        A.   General, sir, as far as all the rules of service and the

11     relationship you just mentioned, I can answer in the affirmative.  I can

12     tell you that in almost all cases, when my commander was in the brigade,

13     when he was present there, when he was available for me, all the reports

14     and everything I had to tell him during the day, I would first give to my

15     commander in my brigade.  And then after that, all the information I

16     considered relevant I would include in my written daily reports which

17     were sent to the intelligence/security organ of the Drina Corps.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Now let us take a look at 7280, page 15 in Serbian and 16 in

20     English, lines 11, 12 and 13.  That's where you say that.  I didn't read

21     it out aloud on purpose, because I wanted you to give your answer without

22     it.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So lines 11, 12 and 13:

25             "Q.  Was there ever a situation that you skipped informing the

Page 12650

 1     commander and went straight to security/intelligence organs in the corps

 2     or the Main Staff ..."

 3             And then you answered:

 4             "No, I did not do that."

 5             And that's exactly what you just said.

 6             So based on all this, my question is:  Did you maybe get the

 7     impression, during the investigation and during the trial, that everybody

 8     wanted to think that you had some superiors outside of the brigade and

 9     that your superiors were not organs of the command of the brigade?  Thank

10     you.

11        A.   What I can say, based on my own experience during that period, is

12     approximately as follows:  There was some misunderstanding about who

13     commanded the security/intelligence organs, also a misunderstanding about

14     to whom they reported, and there was one more misunderstanding or lack of

15     understanding related to command and control, on one side, and

16     professional control or directing of units.  People didn't quite know

17     things in those areas, and of course I tried to explain these issues,

18     within my abilities, the relations between me and my commander, the

19     relations between me and my immediate superior professional organ, our

20     duties and our competences in that field.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now we are going to move to another subject.

22             This same document, 7280, page 17 in English and 16 in Serbian,

23     lines 23 to 26.  Thank you.

24             I quote from line 23 - maybe you can see it too - where you say:

25             "I was informed that on the evening on the 11th, there was going

Page 12651

 1     to be a meeting in the Fontana Hotel.  For the first time, I heard about

 2     this meeting from Colonel Jankovic.  We were told then that the meeting

 3     was going to be between General Mladic and the representatives of the

 4     Dutch Battalion."

 5             Do you remember this first meeting, held in the evening on the

 6     11th of July?  Thank you.

 7        A.   Yes, I remember that meeting.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On page 19 in Serbian of this same document, page 22

 9     in English, lines 15 and 16, you were asked:

10             "Did you know that your commander, Blagojevic -- did you know

11     where your commander was when you left the brigade?

12             "A.  I didn't.

13             "Q.  Was he present, and did he have command within the zone of

14     his responsibility on the 11th of July?

15             "A.  Yes, he was present."

16             Now we have to clarify this.

17             Do they think -- do they intend to ask whether that he was

18     present at the meeting or whether he was present in the zone of

19     responsibility of the brigade?  Could you clarify this for the record?

20        A.   I think that the question was about Colonel Blagojevic being

21     present in the zone of responsibility of the brigade.  That's what I

22     thought at the time, and I still think so.  And I answered, yes, he was

23     present in the zone of responsibility of the brigade.  As far as I know,

24     Colonel Blagojevic was not in Fontana, he did not attend the meeting.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I wanted to clarify this before we moved on.

Page 12652

 1             Now, can we take a look at P591.  That's a video or, rather, the

 2     Srebrenica video.  It lasts for 46 minutes, and we are going to see

 3     that --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the numbers.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "What do you want?

 7             "I've been asked for a meeting --"

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the video to be

 9     stopped at 46:32.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Did you hear the first sentence, where they say General Mladic --

12     where General Mladic says:

13             "You wanted to have the meeting.  What do you want?"

14        A.   Yes, I heard it.

15        Q.   My question is:  This meeting on the evening of the 11th, was it

16     requested by Karremans or by General Mladic?

17        A.   I don't know that, I don't know who requested the meeting.  I was

18     only informed by Colonel Jankovic what I was supposed to do about the

19     meeting.  But who asked it -- who asked for it, I wouldn't know.

20        Q.   All right.  But did you hear it now in the video that it was

21     Karremans who asked for the meeting?

22             Can we play this segment again.  Thank you.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             "What do you want?"

25             "I've been asked for the meeting.  I had a talk with

Page 12653

 1     General Nicolai two hours ago, and also with the national authorities,

 2     about the request on behalf of the population.  It's a request, because

 3     I'm not in a position to demand anything."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We stopped at 47:18.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did you hear now that Colonel Karremans says that he spoke to

 7     General Nicolai in Sarajevo and also with the representative of the

 8     civilian population, and that he speaks in their name, and that he

 9     requests those things in their name because he's not authorised to demand

10     anything?

11        A.   Well, I heard what it is possible to hear in this video.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have the sound.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             "... and that I've been ordered by BH Command to take care of all

16     the refugees, and are now approximately 10.000 women and children within

17     the compound of Potocari.  And the request of the BH Command is to --

18     let's say, to negotiate or ask for the withdrawal of the battalion and

19     withdrawal of those refugees, and if there are possibilities to assist

20     that withdrawal.  There are some women who are able to --"

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             We stopped at 48:34.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did you hear Karremans say, and the interpreter interpret, that

25     he had received an order from the UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo to

Page 12654

 1     negotiate about the evacuation?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes, I heard it.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we now see this video from 48:34 further on.  Thank you.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "And what I've heard from all those soldiers who are now working

 7     to -- let's say, to ease the pain for the population ... a lot of

 8     people -- a lot of persons, women, said, 'We are waiting for the buses

 9     and can we leave the enclave,' because they are sick, tired, they are

10     very scared --"

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we stop.

12             We stopped at 49.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

14        Q.   Did you hear when Karremans said that the population was waiting

15     for the buses so that they could leave the enclave?

16        A.   Yes, I heard it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move on from 49:05.  Thank

18     you.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             "And I've been asked by General Nicolai -- asked for, let's say,

21     for a kind of humanitarian assistance, like food and medicines, because

22     even in my battalion I don't have fuel, almost nothing, fuel left,

23     because of the rejection of all the clearances of the last four months.

24     We have been --"

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 12655

 1        Q.   In your conversation with the Prosecutor, you said that you were

 2     present at all three meetings held in Fontana.  You said that you secured

 3     all the three meetings with the police forces, and that you were in

 4     another room, but that the door between the larger and the smaller room

 5     was open.  Is that so?  Thank you.

 6        A.   General, sir, you said something probably by accident.  You said

 7     that I was present at all three meetings and that I had declared that

 8     before.  If you're talking about the organisation of the three meeting,

 9     then I would agree with you.  I was present during the preparations for

10     the three meetings, and I secured the participants of all three meetings.

11     However, during the first two meetings, I was inside Fontana, inside the

12     building, while during the third meeting I was not inside with the

13     participants.

14        Q.   Yes, I agree with you, that's exactly what you said, but I wanted

15     to avoid quoting all the pages.

16             Now, since you were present at the first meeting, tell the

17     Trial Chamber at whose initiative the first meeting was held.  Was it the

18     initiative of General Mladic or Karremans?  And who was it who demanded

19     the evacuation of the civilian population?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have asked this question some

21     minutes ago.  You received the answer.  The witness didn't know.  He just

22     was only able to confirm what he heard in the video.  Please, no

23     repetitions.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             On the basis of the video, and since he said that he was present

Page 12656

 1     during the first meeting, I'm asking you -- I'm asking him if he knows,

 2     since he was present, who requested the meeting, Was it Mladic or

 3     somebody else?  I leave it in your hands.  If you believe that this

 4     question is not important, then I will move to another one.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you misunderstood.

 6             You put the question several minutes ago to the witness, and he

 7     said he didn't know.  That's all.  Please, don't put this question a

 8     third or a fourth time, and continue, please.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I stopped the video and asked you whether you heard,

12     whether you heard, whether you heard.  Now, based on the entire video,

13     could you please tell us who asked for the evacuation of civilians from

14     Potocari?  Thank you.

15        A.   General, sir, you are insisting on an answer.  I just want to be

16     precise.

17             After -- or looking at this video footage and reminding myself of

18     the events that are recorded here, I can completely answer your question

19     that the meeting was initiated by Mr. Karremans, the DutchBat commander,

20     and I can say that after looking at the video, but I want to be very

21     precise.  I didn't know that when I got the assignment to secure the

22     Fontana, and I didn't go it, I didn't pay attention to particulars.  I

23     did observe what was going on, but I didn't pay attention to who

24     requested the meeting and things like that.  After looking and listening

25     to the footage, I can say that it was Mr. Karremans.

Page 12657

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to put a correction on the record.

 2             This document is not P591, but P991, the trial video.

 3             Please continue.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, can you please tell us when the second meeting at

 6     the Fontana Hotel was held?  Why was it held, and at whose initiative?

 7        A.   The second meeting at the Fontana was held on that same evening

 8     at about 2200 hours, 2215 hours.  I don't know the precise time, but it

 9     was approximately then.  And I think it was held at the request of

10     General Mladic, who insisted that they bring representatives of the

11     28th Division of the Muslim army to the meeting.  That's what I heard,

12     after the first meeting and the request by General Mladic to return that

13     same evening.

14        Q.   And were you there that same evening on the 11th, at the second

15     meeting held at the request of General Mladic, who requested

16     representatives of the Muslim army?  Do you know what happened at that

17     meeting, what was discussed?

18        A.   I was at the Hotel Fontana.  I know that at the second meeting,

19     that evening the Serbian side was present, General Mladic, and a group of

20     officers with him.  It was also attended by representatives of DutchBat,

21     the commander and his associates.  There was also a representative of the

22     Muslim side.  I think his name was Nesib Mandzic.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what the representatives of the Muslim

24     side requested at the meeting between the UNPROFOR, Mladic and them?

25     Thank you.

Page 12658

 1        A.   I don't recall the details from the meeting.  Generally, what I

 2     remember is that there was discussion about their status, the fate of

 3     those people, their possible evacuation, and the issue of fuel and

 4     problems relating to the overall situation in Potocari.  I think that one

 5     of the requests was, and that was something that General Mladic insisted

 6     on in particular, that the Muslim army had to surrender, lay down their

 7     weapons.  So other than the question of the status of those in Potocari,

 8     there was also emphasis on this second issue.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Was there a third meeting held the following day?

10        A.   Yes.  The third meeting was held the following day, the 12th,

11     also at the Fontana.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Since you were not at

13     the third meeting, can we now look at the video from 1:47 -- 1 hour and

14     47 minutes and 8 seconds to 1 hour, 50 minutes and 36 seconds.  Thank

15     you.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             We've stopped the video at 1:49:32.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   My question is this:  Have you heard now whether General Mladic

21     asked everyone to lay down their weapons and then would be permitted to

22     go anywhere, in all the four directions, according to their wishes?

23        A.   Yes, I heard what General Mladic stated.

24        Q.   Did you hear that General Mladic asked the Muslim representatives

25     at the second meeting to inform the soldiers, and the woman in the

Page 12659

 1     delegation asked him how they should get in touch with them, and then he

 2     answered her, You should know that?  Did you hear that?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   This is my next question:  Did the Army of Republika Srpska

 5     persistently insist that weapons be handed over and that the civilians

 6     could go wherever they wanted, in all the four directions, or that they

 7     could remain in their homes?  Thank you.

 8        A.   General, sir, I can confirm what I heard at the second meeting,

 9     and that is that General Mladic insisted that members of the Muslim army

10     be disarmed, that they hand over their weapons, and that he would

11     guarantee their safety.  This is what I can confirm.  And, of course, if

12     this is the third meeting on the 12th, I don't know what happened at that

13     meeting, I don't know any details.  But now I'm looking at this footage.

14     These are details from that third meeting on the 12th.  And a part of

15     what I heard on the first meeting on the 11th, in the evening, is

16     repeated, and that is the surrender, his guarantee of safety, demand for

17     fuel and assistance.  This also was talked about at the second meeting.

18     I don't recall all the details, but that was the gist of it.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  Yes, this was the third meeting.  This

20     is why I wanted to show it to you, because you said that you were busy

21     with other things, that you were not at the meeting room.  I wanted you

22     to hear what General Mladic demanded, and I wanted to ask you:  Did he

23     keep on asking for the weapons to be handed over and then they could go

24     wherever they wanted?  And you replied to that.  All right, thank you.

25             My next question is this:  During the first part of the first

Page 12660

 1     meeting, did you hear Mr. Karremans say that there was no fuel, that the

 2     reserves were running low, and that General Mladic then said at the

 3     meeting that he would provide the vehicles and that the fuel should be

 4     supplied by --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of that.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that Mr. Karremans

 7     complained that he did not have fuel, and I heard Mladic's proposal at

 8     the third meeting, when he again insists that they should provide the

 9     fuel and the Army of Republika Srpska would provide the vehicles, the

10     trucks and the buses.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Do you know who provided the fuel for the evacuation of this

13     population from Potocari to the territory under Bosnian control, through

14     the territory of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.

15        A.   The information that I have from the logistics organs from my

16     brigade is that the fuel was provided by UNPROFOR, and that buses and all

17     the other transport vehicles that were used were mobilised by the

18     Defence Ministry of Republika Srpska, and that those vehicles were used

19     in the evacuation.

20        Q.   In view of this, and in order to avoid going again through the

21     statement you gave to the Prosecutor, is it correct that you were

22     frequently placed in the role as if you made the evacuation, as if the

23     VRS did the evacuation, and nobody is saying that the UNPROFOR requested

24     the evacuation and that they provided the fuel for that evacuation?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note:  We did not understand

Page 12661

 1     the end of the sentence.  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot reply in the

 3     affirmative in that context, that I -- as you said it now.  I believe

 4     also, and I think there was no dilemma or discussion about that, is that

 5     the Army of Republika Srpska and the police did carry out the evacuation

 6     of the population from Potocari.  The details that you are referring to

 7     about who requested the evacuation, and so on and so forth, are something

 8     that I do not recall.  I don't ever remember discussing the question who

 9     asked for this first.  Or if we did, I no longer recall that.  What is

10     important for me, though, and what I'm sure of is that the army and the

11     police conducted the evacuation, but that the members of the UNPROFOR

12     force did take a substantial part in all aspects of that evacuation.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  We only have half an hour left, so I

15     would like to ask you to look at a document that deals with convoys.

16             Before that, can you please tell us whether there was --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   -- a Captain Novakovic who dealt with humanitarian activities and

20     convoys?  Thank you.

21        A.   I'm sorry, Your Honours.  Can I just be permitted to see on the

22     monitor when the general completes his questions, because I have the text

23     of a statement on both of my screens.

24             All right, thank you, thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 12662

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   I will repeat my question.  I asked if you know of a

 4     Captain Novakovic.  I'm going to say his name now, Slavko Novakovic.  And

 5     did you have any contacts with him during the period before the convoys

 6     were supposed to depart?

 7        A.   I know him, more or less.  I'm familiar with the name Novakovic.

 8     I did hear of it.  I don't know if he was a captain or had some other

 9     rank.  I know the name, though.  And what I know pertains to the officer

10     who was the commander of the Drina Corps and who was dealing with the

11     passage of convoys and anything that had to do with humanitarian aid.

12             I would just like to provide one more piece of information.  I

13     know who he is.  However, very frequent contacts, in the sense of

14     resolving problems, were part of the duties of a chief who was at

15     Zuti Most.  They would get in touch with each other and deal with these

16     matters very frequently to resolve the problems there.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the document that

18     says "Movement of Convoys."  The document was drafted by Mr. Novakovic,

19     and we will now see here where he talks about routes and movement of

20     convoys.  And then he emphasises, in the second part, where he talks

21     about Zuti Most, Bratunac towards Srebrenica.  This is the route that

22     he's dealing with, and this is the document movement by convoys, teams

23     and individuals from UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisation.  And before

24     this "B) Manner of Control," I'm reading:

25             "One person, a reserve captain at Drina Corps Command, daily

Page 12663

 1     monitors the entry and movement of convoys from UNPROFOR and humanitarian

 2     organisations, and addresses immediate problems, and reports to the VRS

 3     Main Staff on the passage of convoys, in accordance with the orders and

 4     instructions of the VRS Main Staff."

 5             So he is talking about his own post and his own duties.

 6             Do you recognise here whether he's talking about himself or if

 7     he's talking about somebody else?  He's saying that there is somebody in

 8     the Drina Corps who is constantly carrying out these checks or is

 9     monitoring this.

10        A.   General, I didn't look at the heading of the document, so I don't

11     know what it says.  At the top, I don't know what kind of a document this

12     is.  Ah, all right, very well.

13             Again, I don't see anything other than movements of convoys, and

14     so on and so forth.  There is no heading.  But if this is signed by

15     Novakovic, I assume that this is the officer who was in charge of the

16     convoy, and he was part of my superior command, the Drina Corps Command.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you.

18             Can we move to --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, before you move on, I would like to

20     know the number of this document.  You just mentioned the title,

21     "Movement of Convoys."

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             The number of the document is D73, D73.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             Please carry on, and help the witness to find the title or the

Page 12664

 1     author of something like this.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Could e-court please show the last part of the document, where we

 4     will be able to see the signature of the person who drafted the document.

 5     And that is "Captain Slavko Novakovic," that's how the document is

 6     signed.  Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On page 2, in paragraph marked "C," he talks about the conduct

 9     and abuses by the UNPROFOR.

10             Can we look at page 2 now, please.

11             And then we have the dashes here.  Above the dashes, it says:

12             "Transport of goods which are not permitted at all; transport of

13     goods which did not constitute humanitarian aid in convoys of

14     humanitarian organisations; and transport of goods and quantities greater

15     than those permitted; attempts at border crossing without VRS Main Staff

16     approval."

17             My question is:  At the Zuti Most check-point, did you establish

18     similar problems in convoys that were coming through there?

19        A.   Yes, our problems were similar to the problems listed here;

20     transport of goods that were not permitted and then over-shooting the

21     quantities allowed.  And at the Yellow Bridge, there were cases where

22     people tried to transport the goods that did not come under the

23     humanitarian aid.  The problems were similar.  My answer is that this is

24     a good depiction of the problems related to the convoys.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Our time is limited.

Page 12665

 1     Could you take a look at the tables attached to this document, tables

 2     containing the data about the 8th that came in in 1994.

 3             Can we take a look at 65 ter 5284.  Thank you.  65 ter 5284.

 4             Thank you.  Now we see the table.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Let us just take a look at "Flour."  305 tons for Srebrenica,

 7     362 tons in March for Gorazde, 72 tons for Zepa.  Then in April, again

 8     387 for Srebrenica; then fuel, 531 tons for Gorazde and 77 tons for Zepa,

 9     and so on and so forth.  So this is an overview that he made for all the

10     months.  Here, we only see 1994, but he also made the same overview for

11     1995.

12             Please -- yes, we can hear it, March and April 1995.

13             Did you have similar tables or this kind of information which

14     testified that these are the quantities of flour and other products that

15     arrived at Srebrenica?  Thank you.

16        A.   Before I answer this question, I just want to add something to

17     the previous answer.  I just want to be precise about these violations

18     and infringements of discipline.  I want to emphasise that these were

19     individual, one-off cases due to the lack of discipline of individual

20     members of the convoy.  It was not common practice.  And based on what we

21     were able to discover, the offenders did not have approval or the consent

22     of those in whose name they were acting.  And I am aware of only

23     individual cases which were disciplined and punished, those who breached

24     the rules applying to the entry of convoys.

25             Now, whether we, in the Bratunac Brigade, made summaries and

Page 12666

 1     itemised overviews of this kind, I don't know.  We kept in our

 2     documentation the original approvals and listings so that at any time,

 3     anyone who wanted to was able to make an itemised overview for any period

 4     they were interested in.  But I didn't make any such overviews in this

 5     period, and I didn't see any at the Yellow Bridge.  Maybe the leader of

 6     that check-point did, but I haven't seen any.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, maybe we don't have the right page on

 9     the screen, but at page 56, line 20, General Tolimir was reading from the

10     document, and he said that then for April again, some quantity for

11     Srebrenica, then fuel, 531 tons for Gorazde and 77 tons for Zepa.  He

12     specifically said "fuel," according to the transcript, anyway.  And I am

13     looking at this exhibit, and those amounts of 531 and 77 are for flour

14     for Gorazde and Zepa for April.  So unless he misspoke or unless we've

15     got a transcript problem, I don't know where he's getting fuel from, from

16     this chart, anyway.  Maybe he's looking at a different chart, but I don't

17     see a reference to fuel.  It's all food.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, item number 1 is "Flour."  Do you want to

19     clarify that, Mr. Tolimir?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             I may have made a slip of the tongue.  If I did, I'm happy to be

22     corrected.  I was reading the quantities of flour for Srebrenica, Gorazde

23     and Zepa for March and April, as expressed in tons.

24             Could this be admitted so I can move on in the few minutes I have

25     left?

Page 12667

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5284 shall be

 3     assigned Exhibit D209.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 65 ter 7290,

 6     page 1 and page 5 on a split screen, because both the English and the

 7     Serbian are in the same document.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   We see on the screen one statement that you addressed to a

10     Trial Chamber of the ICTY.  It says:  "13 March 2009."  For what purpose

11     did you write this statement?

12        A.   General, from the first paragraph you can see for what purpose

13     the statement was written.  It says on 13 March, 2009, I received an

14     order from the Trial Chamber to submit a written statement confirming my

15     statement of facts and acceptance of responsibility, or indicating parts

16     of the statement of facts which I wished to change or clarify, providing

17     an explanation.  So it was written with the purpose of clarifying certain

18     words and the way in which certain things were phrased and defined.  I

19     wanted to make it absolutely clear what I meant to say, in which way I

20     wanted to say it, so that it be a reflection of what I actually said and

21     did.  That was the main intention behind writing this statement; namely,

22     clearing up matters with which I did not agree entirely in the way they

23     were phrased.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  Just tell me, who formulated the

25     provisions of the statement of acceptance of responsibility, your plea

Page 12668

 1     agreement?

 2        A.   All the facts and everything else was phrased and prepared by my

 3     legal counsel.  They were in charge of writing all these agreements and

 4     of making sure that everything is written correctly.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we see the next page in the Serbian, while the English should

 7     remain.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   We'll look at the paragraph which begins:  "Paragraph 1 of the

10     statement (lines 4 to 5, paragraph 1)":

11             "The intentions of the VRS forces ... to cause the forcible

12     removal of the entire Muslim population from Srebrenica ..."

13             "The (first) intention of the VRS was to physically separate the

14     two enclaves, Zepa and Srebrenica, and to liberate the

15     Zeleni Jadar-Jasenova-Milici road, and, in phase 2, to reduce the

16     Srebrenica enclave to the town area."

17             And then you say:

18             "The forcible removal of the entire Muslim population from

19     Srebrenica was the result of the fall of the enclave and subsequent

20     decisions."

21             Now, my question on this would be --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   What was the purpose of attacking the enclave?  Do you remember

25     that?  What was the main objective?

Page 12669

 1        A.   Concerning the reasons for attacking the enclave, I believe I've

 2     already spoken about that earlier in my testimony.  But if you want me to

 3     repeat, it's not a problem.  However, if you're asking me about

 4     paragraph 1 of this statement, I should like, before you and before the

 5     Trial Chamber, to explain what I meant and what I understand by this;

 6     that is, what I knew before the attack on the enclave.  Namely, as I

 7     wrote here, the first intention of the VRS was to physically separate the

 8     two enclaves, Zepa and Srebrenica.  That's what I knew, as a soldier, and

 9     I believe I heard that from General Zivanovic and other officers I was in

10     contact with.  But I certainly heard it from General Zivanovic.  And, in

11     truth, I believe that when one is explaining the situation, one should

12     separate this first part, the combat operations, the offensive actions,

13     the attack on the enclave and its capture, from the second part which

14     relates to the activities and decisions and events that followed the fall

15     of the enclave.  In other words, all that I knew before the attack was

16     that we wanted to separate Zepa from Srebrenica.

17             In my view, this entire operation, at least the combat/military

18     aspect of it, began approximately on the day when the check-point in

19     Zeleni Jadar was taken over.  That was followed by a pause and the

20     introduction of armed forces, and that was the first part.  Then came the

21     second part after the combat operations had already started.  That was to

22     enter the enclave, narrow it down and reduce it to the urban area.

23             However, I said in prior testimony, and I said today, I believe,

24     that the resistance from within the enclave was poor and that the VRS

25     forces took the enclave with an unexpected ease.  In my understanding,

Page 12670

 1     based on what I saw and what I lived through there, the combat aspect of

 2     the attack on Srebrenica ended with the fall on the enclave.

 3             Now, the other part and all the decisions regarding the status of

 4     prisoners and civilians, and their transfer and forcible removal, all

 5     these decisions, in my deep conviction, were taken after the fall of the

 6     enclave, at the meetings where Mladic met with DutchBat, international

 7     organisations, representatives of the civilian organisations, et cetera.

 8     It is from these meetings that decisions followed what to do with the

 9     civilian population.  That was what I intended to explain in my testimony

10     and in my statements.  That's how I see things.

11        Q.   Let us look at the last two sentences of this paragraph one.  You

12     say:

13             "The forcible removal of the entire Muslim population of

14     Srebrenica was the result of the fall of the enclave and subsequent

15     decisions."

16             My question is:  Could removal be forcible if the population had

17     expressed their desire to leave, and even the UNPROFOR conveyed to the

18     VRS, as represented by General Mladic, the wish of the citizens to leave?

19        A.   General, formally and legally speaking, you are right only if you

20     think -- only if you view things from that point of view.  But what I'm

21     saying, I'm saying from the viewpoint of what I saw.  I'm saying this

22     because I saw the actual result of all these agreements.

23             The Muslims, formally and legally speaking, had the choice to go

24     or to stay.  But in practice, I assert with full responsibility they had

25     no choice, in view of the entire situation, the hatred that prevailed, in

Page 12671

 1     view of all the killings and conflicts that preceded this, the mutual

 2     desire for revenge.  I assert there was no practical possibility for them

 3     to survive.  The only way to resolve this was for all of them to leave

 4     that area which was their home.

 5             And let me say one more thing.  I have never known -- never met

 6     anyone in my life who would, of their own free will, abandon everything

 7     they had, their entire life as they knew it.  Nobody would do that

 8     overnight of their own free will.  And that's why I stand by my statement

 9     that it was a forcible transfer, that perhaps 95 per cent of everyone who

10     was then in Potocari really wanted to stay there and were transferred

11     against their will.  I saw all that, and it is my deep conviction that it

12     was a forcible removal, regardless of the formally-expressed consent of

13     their representatives and the desire to -- they expressed to leave.  They

14     had to leave Potocari to leave their homes and property, to take their

15     families with them and leave.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  I didn't want to interrupt you, and now

17     we heard your opinion.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   An opinion different from the actual fact and the things that

20     were going on and the demands posed by the Muslims.

21             Now, let us take a look at P1004 -- P1104.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             Just for the record, we don't have the record in e-court at the

24     moment, it is not going on.  But in LiveNote, everything was recorded

25     correctly, so that we can continue.  But it's not possible to have the

Page 12672

 1     document on the screen at the same time with the transcript on LiveNote.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender into

 4     evidence what we now see on the screen so that we can move on to another

 5     document, because we are running out of time.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are referring to 65 ter 7290; is that

 7     correct?

 8             It will be received as a document.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7290 shall be

10     assigned Exhibit D210.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You can maybe postpone other decisions on other

12     documents, but there are still some pending.

13             Please continue your examination now.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P1004.  Thank you.

15             And while we are waiting for it, I will say that on page 897,

16     line 15, until page 898, line 5, transcript in the Krstic case, while

17     explaining the events on the 12th of July, 1995, he said the following,

18     and I quote:

19             "Of course, the refugees were scared to death when they saw the

20     buses.  For them, it was a sign.  We are going to be taken to safety, so

21     let us quickly board the buses.  We have to board the buses as fast as

22     possible.  I have to be the first.  That's what I talked about in

23     relation to the buses.  First, the wounded people - that's what

24     Mr. Mandzic requested - then elderly people and women.  After that, the

25     remainder also had to be evacuated."

Page 12673

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you for a moment.

 2             I don't know what you are reading into this transcript.  If this

 3     is P1004, it is a transcript of a witness in Krstic under seal.  It

 4     should not be broadcast, and it is a problem if you read it into the

 5     transcript.  But I think it is a witness which is not protected.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told by the Registrar this is now a public

 8     document.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.  I was only referring to your own

10     list of documents.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will continue to quote the

12     statement:

13             "At that moment, everybody was able to stand up, pick up their

14     things and enter the buses.  They over-crowded the buses.  We tried to

15     arrange at that moment to put a UN soldier in each bus to accompany and

16     escort them, but that was not possible because the buses were too

17     over-crowded."

18             And then Mr. Rave was asked -- and so on and so forth.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   My question is:  Did you see the same situation in Potocari

21     during the evacuation of the civilian population from Potocari towards

22     Kladanj?  Thank you.

23        A.   Yes, I saw general chaos and all the problems that were there

24     related to the transport.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D147, D147.

Page 12674

 1             This document is a UN document.  It is dated 11th of July, 1995.

 2             I made a mistake.  I have to repeat the number.  D147.  Maybe I

 3     misspoke.  D147.  Thank you.

 4             Thank you.  I wanted to show to the witness the document entitled

 5     "The UN Policy and Documents Related to the Security Council," dated

 6     11th of July, but it seems that I've given the wrong number, and that's

 7     why we cannot call up the document.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   My question is:  Mr. Nikolic, did you know that the

10     United Nations, as far back as the 11th of July, 1995, promulgated an act

11     entitled "The Policy of the Peacekeeping Forces of the United Nations,"

12     in which they considered the withdrawal of the civilian population from

13     the protected area?  So that is on the 11th, the same day that Nicolai

14     ordered Karremans to negotiate about the evacuation of civilians.  Did

15     you know that or not?  Thank you.

16        A.   I didn't know that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the policy of the UNHCR was also

18     defined in this document, and they also reported that 80 to 90 per cent

19     of the population of Srebrenica was made up of displaced persons who

20     wanted to leave Srebrenica and go to Tuzla as soon as possible?  Thank

21     you.  Did you know about this assessment of the UNHCR, UNPROFOR, and

22     others who were present in the area?  Thank you.

23        A.   I did not have a chance to see those assessments.  I don't

24     remember seeing a single document containing something like that.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Oh, my assistant just

Page 12675

 1     told me that I permitted [as interpreted] the number.  It should have

 2     been 174 and not 147.  That's why we couldn't call up the document.

 3             Now we can see the document on the screen.  So that's a document

 4     sent by Mr. Annan.  It was received by Mr. Annan, and it was sent by

 5     Mr. Akashi.

 6             I would like to take a look at B, page 2 in Serbian, and in

 7     English it's also page 2.  I'm only interested in the paragraph marked

 8     with the letter B.

 9             Now we can see it.  I'm going to quote just the first sentence,

10     because we don't have enough time, so that we can see what were the views

11     UNHCR about the situation:

12             "UNHCR reports that 80 to 90 per cent of the population of

13     Srebrenica (total population is 40.000) are displaced persons who fled

14     fighting earlier in the war.  Thus, they do not have long-standing ties

15     to homes and property in the enclave and will probably be interested in

16     leaving for Tuzla.  A UNHCR local staff member in Srebrenica reported

17     today that virtually everyone in the enclave wishes to leave."

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   My question:  Did you have information about the assessment made

20     by the UNHCR and UNPROFOR about this situation?  Did you know that they

21     had explicit information that the population wanted to leave the enclave

22     even on the 11th of July?  Thank you.

23        A.   General, sir, I did not have their assessments.  I did not have a

24     chance to see that.  But if you are interested in the conversations I had

25     and what I learned there, I can tell you that I heard from the members of

Page 12676

 1     the Dutch Battalion that a large number of the civilians wanted to leave

 2     the Srebrenica enclave.  That's what I knew.

 3             Now, talking about these political decisions and assessments, I

 4     have to say that I never saw this document or any other document by UNHCR

 5     or the Dutch Battalion that would contain something like this.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic, for all the

 7     effort that you made, for the fact that you put yourself at the disposal

 8     of the Prosecution and Defence during all this time.  Do excuse me if I

 9     in any way contributed to anything that might hurt you.  You are in the

10     same position as me.  I apologise.  I wish you a safe journey, and I wish

11     a speedy return to your home.

12             Mr. President, Defence has finished.  We do not have any more

13     questions in the cross-examination.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, General.  Excuse me.

16     Thank you.  I would also like to thank you because you performed a very

17     correct cross-examination.  I respect you very much as a general and an

18     officer.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must have our second break now, but I would

20     like to ask the Defence to check the documents you have used during the

21     cross-examination during the break, especially which part of 65 ter 7280

22     you want to tender.  There were very few pages out of this huge document

23     we have used with the witness.  And I would like to refer you to

24     65 ter 7274 you used as well during the cross-examination, and I would

25     like to know what shall happen to this document.

Page 12677

 1             We adjourn and resume 12.35 [sic] sharp.  Thank you.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir or Mr. Gajic, could you indicate the

 5     page numbers you want to tender?

 6             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, even though we had a

 7     little bit of a problem with the transcript during the break, we did,

 8     nevertheless, manage to get the required references.

 9             When we're talking about document 65 ter 7280, the Defence would

10     request that pages 11, 15, 16 and 19 be admitted in the Serbian, and the

11     corresponding pages in the English would be 11, 12, 16, 17 and 20.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             Let me ask you the following:  I received in the meantime a

14     proposal by the Registry that you perhaps up-load these pages as a

15     separate document, so then it is very clear that we have only these pages

16     as a document admitted into evidence.  And if there is a need to deal

17     with this document at a later stage, the original document, it's easier

18     for the Registry to use it.  Would that be possible for you?

19             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I absolutely agree

20     with your suggestion.  And then, in that case, the Defence would -- in

21     reference to 7280 and 7284, would like to also go through the transcript

22     again and check whether our reference are correct, and would read only

23     those pages into the court under the 65 ter Defence number, and then we

24     would ask for that to be admitted.  We would like to ask, for the purpose

25     of preparations of the next witness, to be permitted to do this on Friday

Page 12678

 1     so that on Monday we can definitely resolve this matter.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a good proposal.  We should do that

 3     accordingly.

 4             But I see on page 69, line 9, a wrong number, I think.  It

 5     shouldn't be "65 ter 7284," but "7274."  Is that correct?

 6             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Then we have everything

 8     clear on the record.  But I can tell you the documents in this format

 9     will be received as exhibits.

10             Now it's the turn for the Prosecution to commence the

11     re-examination.

12             Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Nikolic.

16        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Thayer.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I would like to indicate that we are inclined

18     to sit the full three-quarters of an hour for the remaining of the day.

19             MR. THAYER:  Thank you for that information, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Just one quick follow-up from a question General Tolimir put to

21     you earlier today, and this was with respect to the ICRC coming to

22     Bratunac.  And you answered at page 38 that:

23             "What I know for a fact is that the ICRC came to visit the

24     wounded, but I have no information that the ICRC visited those who were

25     detained in those installations and had the status of prisoners."

Page 12679

 1             You say:

 2             "I know it was Colonel Jankovic and the physician of the

 3     Dutch Battalion who contacted the ICRC, and they were also the ones who

 4     supervised the wounded."

 5             I'm just going to wait until that gets translated to you.

 6             Do you remember that answer from earlier today, sir?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   My question is simply:  Do you recall when, in relation to the

 9     two days of the removal of the civilian population, the 12th and the 13th

10     of July, the arrival of the ICRC to look at the wounded and the

11     transportation of those wounded occurred?  Do you remember whether it was

12     the same days as the 12th and the 13th, a few days later, a few weeks

13     later?  Can you give us some time-frame for when this visit by the ICRC

14     of the wounded occurred that Colonel Jankovic, as you said, was involved

15     in?

16        A.   The ICRC came to Bratunac, from what I remember, after those

17     days, and it was about evacuating all the wounded who had been placed at

18     the Health Centre in Bratunac.  I believe it was a few days after the

19     12th and the 13th.

20        Q.   Okay.  One other quick follow-up.  In answer to a question from

21     General Tolimir and, I think, The Honourable Presiding Judge about this

22     list that you had in your office, you referred to the attack on Kravica,

23     where you gave a certain number of civilians who were killed and soldiers

24     who were killed, and in the transcript we had you saying that that attack

25     occurred in 1992.  The Trial Chamber has heard a lot of testimony.  I

Page 12680

 1     believe you, yourself, may have testified about an attack that is well

 2     known on Orthodox Christmas on January 7, 1993.  My question to you is

 3     simply:  When you were answering the question earlier today, were you

 4     describing another attack on Kravica from 1992 or were you referring to

 5     the well-known Kravica Christmas attack of January 7th, 1993?

 6        A.   I think you misunderstood me about that answer I gave to the

 7     Presiding Judge.  I said, "For example," and then I mentioned the attack

 8     on Kravica, so I wasn't speaking about a specific attack on Kravica.  And

 9     for you present in the courtroom here, the attack of the 7th of January

10     may be the most prominent, and I know about it, but I was just citing an

11     example, saying in case of attack or attacks on villages such as Kravica.

12     And in 1992, there were about 30 attacks of that kind.  So I wasn't

13     talking specifically about the attack on Kravica of the 7th of January,

14     1993.

15        Q.   Okay.  That's all I wanted to clarify.

16             Now, let's go to D210, please.  You were just shown this

17     recently.

18             You testified about this shortly before the break.  You've

19     identified this as a supplementary statement.  General Tolimir drew your

20     attention to the language that you were trying to clarify, and in your

21     statement here, you specifically refer to paragraph 1 of the statement,

22     lines 4 to 5, paragraph 1.

23             And I think we need to scroll down in the B/C/S to catch that

24     part.  There we go.

25             Do you see where you've written:

Page 12681

 1             "Paragraph 1 of the statement (lines 4 to 5, paragraph 1)"?

 2             This is what you were shown by General Tolimir earlier.

 3        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 4        Q.   Let's take a look at the original statement of facts and

 5     acceptance of responsibility that you were attempting to clarify and

 6     correct with the document that we're looking at right now.

 7             If we could look at 65 ter 7291, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just for the record, this is

 9     Exhibit P2157.  Thank you.

10             MR. THAYER:  And we will need page 19 of the English and page 27

11     of the B/C/S, please.

12        Q.   Now, we have here what's headed "Statement of Facts and

13     Acceptance of Responsibility."  Is this the document that's referred to

14     in D210, the supplementary statement that we just saw a moment ago?

15        A.   Yes, that's the document.

16        Q.   Okay.  And in the document we saw just a moment ago, in the

17     portion that General Tolimir asked you about, it refers to paragraph 1 of

18     this statement that we're looking at, lines 4 to 5.  We just read that

19     out on your supplementary statement, so let's look at that language here.

20     And, again, it's -- and I'll just read it into the record:

21             "During the attack and take-over of the Srebrenica enclave by VRS

22     forces in July 1995, it was the intention of the VRS forces to cause the

23     forcible removal of the entire Muslim population from Srebrenica to

24     Muslim-held territory."

25             Do you see that, sir, in paragraph 1?

Page 12682

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember being asked about these two exact portions

 3     of this document and the supplemental statement that we just looked at a

 4     moment ago in the Popovic case, in cross-examination by the counsel for

 5     accused Vujadin Popovic?  Do you remember having these same portions put

 6     to you in the Popovic trial?  Do you remember that, sir?

 7        A.   I can't remember that I was shown excerpts from that statement in

 8     parallel with the statement of facts and acceptance of responsibility.  I

 9     may have been shown that, but I've been shown hundreds of documents.  I

10     may have been asked about this, and I may have been shown this, but I

11     really don't remember.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me see if I can help you out.

13             Can we take a look at 65 ter 7301, please.  This is the

14     transcript of Mr. Nikolic's Popovic testimony, and we'll need to look at

15     22 April 2009.  I believe it's his second day of testimony in that case.

16     Specifically, page 33001.

17        A.   Sorry.  What I remember -- and it's good that the Presiding Judge

18     in that trial asked me to clarify this issue, namely, what I meant.  I

19     remember that clearly, but I don't remember this.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is really illegible.

21             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  I'll just read it, Mr. President.

22             Unfortunately, we've got a bad copy here.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             MR. THAYER:

25        Q.   In fact -- and again, Mr. Nikolic, I'm referring to your

Page 12683

 1     testimony in the Popovic trial.  And beginning at page 33001,

 2     Mr. Zivanovic, who was the lawyer for Vujadin Popovic, put your statement

 3     of facts on the e-court and looked at the same paragraph 1 that we just

 4     looked at.  And a few pages earlier, he had put the portion of your

 5     supplemental statement that General Tolimir asked you about on the screen

 6     as well.

 7             And if we scroll down all the way to the bottom, please.

 8             Mr. Zivanovic asks you:

 9             "Statement of facts in item 1, paragraph 2, it says:  Intention

10     of the VRS during the attack on the Srebrenica enclave and its taking

11     over by forces of the Republika Srpska in July 1995, was to cause the

12     forcible removal of the entire Muslim population from Srebrenica to

13     Muslim-held territory."

14             And Mr. Zivanovic had shown you your supplemental statement about

15     this portion, and he asked you:

16             "What I questioned you about a moment ago, do you believe it to

17     be the same as is contained in this document?"

18             And your answer was:

19             "What we can find in the previous statement and the subsequent

20     statement is something I believe to be the same, the same goal and the

21     same results of the attack on Srebrenica enclave.  You can interpret it

22     any which way you want, but the goal of the VRS forces was to have the

23     Srebrenica enclave empty of Muslims.  Whether it was achieved this way or

24     that does not matter.  The enclave of Srebrenica became empty of any

25     Muslims, and that was the final goal.  No one can deny that."

Page 12684

 1             And I'll just stop there for a moment.

 2             My question to you is:  Do you stand by that answer you gave in

 3     the Popovic trial?

 4        A.   Yes, I do stand by that answer.  I don't think differently now.

 5     And with the additional statement, and I said this in today's testimony

 6     as well, I just attempted to clarify that in stages, the way I understood

 7     it and the way it happened, I tried to explain the combat part, and then

 8     after combat was over, the forceful transfer operation, that second part,

 9     as well as the decisions that were made after the fall of Srebrenica.

10     And I still believe that the ultimate goal was to have Srebrenica, as an

11     enclave, cleansed to carry out the forcible transfer of Muslims from that

12     territory.  I believe that today, too.

13             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  And if we could scroll down just a little bit

14     so I can pick up the rest of your answer and we can all read it.  And

15     just a little bit more, please.  Great.

16        Q.   In fact, sir, you continue with your answer, and you explain, and

17     I'll quote:

18             "What I was trying to make clear to everyone, to make it clear

19     for the Bench and everyone else, was to explain the flow of the

20     operation, the way it developed.  I tried to explain in which way the

21     attack took place and how it came about that people began leaving

22     Srebrenica and forcibly transferred to the Muslim-controlled territory.

23     That was my goal, and you should see that as my answer.  The goal is the

24     same.  The final goal was to have the enclave empty, and all documents,

25     if you look at them, starting with the directive from the Main Staff and

Page 12685

 1     the information of Commander Ognjenovic, points to the fact that this was

 2     the goal of the attack on the enclave."

 3             My question is, again:  Do you stand by that portion of you

 4     answer in the Popovic trial, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Now I want to show you -- before I do that,

 7     Mr. President -- oh, I see it's already an exhibit.  Never mind.  I was

 8     going to tender the original statement of facts.

 9             May we see 65 ter 2478, please.

10        Q.   Sir, take a moment and have a look at this document.  Please let

11     us know when you're ready to move on.

12        A.   I've looked at the document.  And if you need me to go into it in

13     more detail, just let me know.

14             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  If we could just go to the last page of the

15     document, please, just so we can see who this order is from.

16        Q.   Do you see that it's signed by General Zivanovic, Mr. Nikolic?

17        A.   Yes, I see that it's signed by General Zivanovic.

18        Q.   Okay.  And at the bottom, it shows that one copy is going to the

19     commander of your brigade.  Do you see that, sir?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Now, could we go back to the first page of

22     this document in both versions, please.

23        Q.   We can see that it's sent in the "To" line to your brigade's

24     command, to the commander of the chief of staff personally.  Do you see

25     that, sir?

Page 12686

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   And it makes specific reference to a 19 November 1992 Main Staff

 3     order.  Do you see that reference?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   It says, in paragraph 1:

 6             "Cause as many losses as possible to the enemy with the active

 7     involvement of main forces and equipment.  Wear the enemy out, break it

 8     up or force it to surrender, and force the Muslim population to leave the

 9     area of Cerska, Zepa, Srebrenica and Gorazde."

10             Can you tell the Trial Chamber, sir, how this portion of

11     General Zivanovic's order corresponds or doesn't correspond to what you

12     just told the Trial Chamber was the ultimate goal of the VRS, which was

13     to have Srebrenica emptied of its Muslim population?  How does this order

14     from General Zivanovic fit into what you said earlier about the ultimate

15     goal of the VRS?

16        A.   Before I answer your question, I have to say that on this date,

17     the 19th of November, I came back from the hospital, and that's when I

18     came back to Bratunac.  So we're talking about something that I probably

19     did not see, even though it's addressed to my brigade.

20             However, this first section:

21             "Cause as many losses as possible to the enemy, with the active

22     involvement of main forces and equipment.  Wear the enemy out, break it

23     up, or force it to surrender ..."

24             In my opinion, this is a military task, so there's nothing of

25     dispute there.

Page 12687

 1             The second part:

 2             "Force the Muslim population to leave the area of Cerska, Zepa,

 3     Srebrenica --" I can't see what's written there, "... and Gorazde."

 4             That, of course, can be connected with the activities or, rather,

 5     the intentions that materialised later.

 6        Q.   And when you say --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, a short moment, please.

 8             Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to underline that this

10     is a document from 1992.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's correct.

12             Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   And when you say, sir, "the intentions that materialised later,"

15     what are you referring to?

16        A.   I'm thinking of what we discussed a little bit earlier, and

17     that's from paragraph 1, where I said that the intentions of the

18     Army of Republika Srpska is to cause the forceful transfer of the

19     civilian population from the Srebrenica territory.  This is what I'm

20     thinking of when I make the connection between this second part of this

21     paragraph here, stating that the Muslim population is to be forced to

22     leave the area of Cerska, Zepa and Gorazde.

23             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender

24     65 ter 2478.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

Page 12688

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 2478 shall be

 2     assigned Exhibit P2169.  Thank you.

 3             MR. THAYER:

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Nikolic, General Tolimir showed you a couple of times

 5     D41 - if we could see that on e-court, please - which was a

 6     9 July document type-signed by General Tolimir.  And on a couple of

 7     occasions in your cross-examination - if we could scroll down to the

 8     bottom in both documents, please - General Tolimir called your attention

 9     to the inclusion of references to the Geneva Conventions in this

10     document.  Do you remember those questions, sir?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   Do you recall being shown this same document in the Blagojevic

13     case and being asked about this same language concerning the

14     Geneva Conventions?  Do you remember that, sir?  And if you don't, I can

15     give you the reference.

16        A.   I remember being asked about that.  I don't specifically remember

17     the document, but I do recall being asked questions about the adherence

18     to the provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

19             MR. THAYER:  If we could have 65 ter 7300 on e-court, please.  We

20     will need Day 4 of Mr. Nikolic's testimony in that case, 25 September

21     2003.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do we know the page number?

23             MR. THAYER:  I do, Mr. President.  It's page 1959 in the

24     Blagojevic trial.  And, again, it's the fourth day of testimony, 25

25     September, transcript page 1959.

Page 12689

 1             And if we scroll down a little bit.  And I'll just read it for

 2     you, since we don't have a translation.

 3             Mr. Karnavas points your attention to the Geneva Conventions

 4     portion of this document, and he asked you:

 5             "So you weren't aware that that's what the order had?  You were

 6     free to treat the prisoners in whatever manner you, Momir Nikolic, saw

 7     fit at the time?"

 8             And your answer was, and I'll just quote it to you:

 9             "No, Mr. Karnavas.  I was not able to treat the prisoners in

10     whatever manner I saw fit, and nobody ever in an order would write

11     anything other than was written in this order.  Do you really think that

12     in an operation where 7.000 people were set aside, captured and killed,

13     that somebody was adhering to the Geneva Conventions?  Do you really

14     believe that somebody adhered to the law, rules and regulations in an

15     operation where so many were killed?  First of all, they were captured,

16     killed, and then buried, exhumed once again, buried again.  Can you

17     conceive of that, that somebody in an operation of that kind adhered to

18     the Geneva Conventions?"

19             And we need to scroll down just a little bit:

20             "Nobody, Mr. Karnavas, adhered to the Geneva Conventions ..."

21             If we could go to the next page:

22             "... or the rules and regulations.  Because had they, then the

23     consequences of that particular operation would not have been a total of

24     7.000 people dead."

25        Q.   Sir, do you stand by that answer that you gave in the Blagojevic

Page 12690

 1     case?

 2        A.   Yes, I do, absolutely.  Everything that I stated then, I still

 3     think today.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, may I inquire when we're breaking

 5     today?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  I indicated three-quarters of an hour.

 7     That means 2.25.

 8             MR. THAYER:  2.25.  Okay, thank you.

 9        Q.   General Tolimir, earlier today in his cross-examination,

10     Mr. Nikolic - and we're done with this document, thank you - quoted to

11     you some testimony by Dr. -- or a Dr. Baraybar, and he put to you a

12     figure of, I think it was, 2400 or 2500 bodies -- 2541 bodies that

13     Mr. Baraybar had talked about at one time.  Do you remember those

14     questions?

15        A.   I remember the questions that the general put to me today.  I do

16     remember.

17        Q.   Okay.  That's what I'm getting at, sir.

18             Now, I'm not sure if General Tolimir mentioned this to

19     you - perhaps he did - but were you aware that this figure from

20     Dr. Baraybar was as of 2001?  Were you aware of that?

21        A.   No.  I told Mr. Tolimir, and I'm telling you now, that the name

22     that you are mentioning just now doesn't mean anything to me, and I think

23     that I've never seen that statement.  I don't even know if I was supposed

24     to see it.  I don't know when the figures and the data originated, when

25     the date is for these figures.

Page 12691

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I waited for the end of the translation.

 2             Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did state that it

 4     was up to 2001, so I would like Mr. Thayer to give us a reference so that

 5     the Trial Chamber could see and that the witness would know what he's

 6     asking him about.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Well, Mr. President, I think we have it there.  If

 9     the general thinks he gave him the figure of 2001, that's fine.  As I

10     say, I'm not sure if he did.

11        Q.   The point is, Mr. Nikolic -- and maybe you're not aware of this.

12     We'll find out in a moment.  General Tolimir certainly is aware of this,

13     because he has all these documents.  Let me ask you:  Do you know whether

14     or not since 2001, in the 10 years that have passed, there have been

15     continuing exhumations of mass graves and identifications through DNA

16     analysis that have been made?

17        A.   Sir, you know that from the beginning of 2002, I have been in

18     prison, so I can answer your question only as a person who's following

19     this, watching it on television.  Of course, I have information also from

20     my family, friends, relatives.  So I can give you an answer from that

21     point of view, that I do have information and that I'm aware that

22     exhumations are ongoing to find those who were killed and buried, and

23     then after the identification they are buried in the common graveyard in

24     Potocari.

25        Q.   And, sir, when you refer to "common graveyard," are you referring

Page 12692

 1     to the cemetery at Potocari, where you can see the rows of graves and

 2     where they have a commemoration every summer in July?

 3        A.   Yes, that is what I'm referring to.  The Memorial Centre, that's

 4     what it is called.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Now, if we could have P170 on e-court,

 6     please.

 7             I can just tell you what we have here is a report by an OTP

 8     investigator summarising and updating the exhumation of mass graves and

 9     the numbers of DNA-verified remains that are coming out of those graves.

10             And if we could go to page 34 in the English, and it will be,

11     I think, the second-to-last page in the B/C/S.  If we can -- it will be

12     six more pages in the English, please.  The ERN will be 6011, X019-6011.

13     Okay.

14             And what we can do is just work with the English version, because

15     I'm just going to take you through a number of totals here.

16        Q.   We can see this is a chart, and I'll just explain it to you and

17     it will be translated to you, Mr. Nikolic, where Mr. Janc has totalled up

18     the number of DNA-identified bodies coming out of various mass graves

19     which were associated with execution sites.  So right here, we can see

20     1334 identified individuals with respect to the Kravica execution.

21             If we could go to the next page.

22             We can see 830 so far with respect to the Orahovac execution.

23             If we could scroll down.

24             809 with respect to the Petkovci mass execution, 761 with respect

25     to the Kozluk execution, 1656 in connection with the Branjevo Farm and

Page 12693

 1     Pilica executions, with a total of 5390 identified bodies coming out of

 2     these mass graves.

 3             My question, sir, to you is:  In answer to Mr. Karnavas' question

 4     that we saw a little while ago, you referred to 7.000 people being

 5     killed.  Here, we have a total coming out of mass graves of 5390 people

 6     coming out of mass graves.  General Tolimir showed you a figure from 2001

 7     of approximately 2500 bodies at that time.  Can you tell the

 8     Trial Chamber, based on your observations at the time that you've told us

 9     about, whether this figure of 5390 is closer to your estimate of how many

10     people were executed or whether 2541, I think was the figure from 2001

11     that General Tolimir put to you, is closer to the figure?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't show the witness the

14     number in order to assert something about that number.  All I did was ask

15     the witness whether it was his estimate that there were more or less or

16     that number of victims in Srebrenica, since he was going to Zvornik as

17     well and that he was in Bratunac, and that he had said that he knew how

18     many people were captured.  Mr. Thayer is now trying to present the total

19     number of those exhumed throughout the whole theatre of war and to try to

20     get the witness to say something about that number.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think everybody who is interrogating a witness

22     tries to get something out of the witness.  I don't see a great

23     difference from your interview with the witness to the question

24     Mr. Thayer is putting to the witness.

25             Go ahead, please, but bear in mind that we are at the end of

Page 12694

 1     today's hearing.

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you've told us that all of the prisoners who were

 4     temporarily detained in Bratunac were taken out in that convoy to

 5     Zvornik, and what we're looking at here is a total of bodies identified

 6     from mass execution sites.  My question is simple:  Is this number of

 7     5390 closer to your estimate of how many people were captured along that

 8     road and detained in Bratunac and taken up to Zvornik, or is the 2001

 9     number given to you by General Tolimir of 2541 closer to your estimate of

10     approximately how many people were brought to Bratunac -- captured along

11     the road and brought to Bratunac and detained, in addition to the men

12     from Potocari who had been brought to Bratunac?

13        A.   Well, I can answer this question very briefly and simply.

14             All that I said before the exhumations and the identification of

15     the bodies of those killed are my estimates.  I based my estimates on

16     information that I had and on the basis of what I saw.

17             Now, I'm seeing this for the first time.  Now, when I see all of

18     these numbers and the identifications, I cannot make any more assessments

19     or evaluations.  I do not doubt that what is stated here is correct and

20     that that is the number.  After the things that I know here, there is no

21     need for me to make any assessments as to what is closer to what.

22             According to everything that I saw, and in view of these figures

23     here, I think, of course, that the 5.390 number of those killed and

24     exhumed is closer to being accurate than the figure that was presented to

25     me from 2001.

Page 12695

 1             And, of course, I want to add one more thing.  If all of this

 2     information -- if all of these identified bodies are -- if that's

 3     correct, according to what I know, if they all came from Bratunac, then

 4     these people were transferred by convoy from Zvornik as well, because I

 5     see a group from Zvornik here in the document.  Then it's clear that this

 6     is the total number of those separated in Potocari, temporarily detained

 7     in different buildings, taken to Bratunac and detained there, and then on

 8     the 14th were transferred to the territory of Zvornik.

 9             At the top, I saw "Kravica" in this overview, and so that

10     includes people who were also from the Srebrenica enclave who were killed

11     and exhumed from a mass grave.  So this is, then, the number that I can

12     talk about on the basis of this information.  Everything before that was

13     my estimate.

14             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             I will end my re-examination there.  I had a couple of questions,

16     but we're over time.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have you any idea how much more you need for

18     re-examination?  It was -- you concluded?

19             MR. THAYER:  We made the undertaking that we would finish today,

20     and we're going to keep that, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This is appreciated.

22             Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this now concludes your --

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This now concludes your examination here in this

25     trial.  The Chamber would like to thank you that you were able to provide

Page 12696

 1     us with your knowledge.  And it was a long period, several days, you had

 2     to testify here.  Thank you very much for that.  It was extremely helpful

 3     to us.  And on behalf of the parties and the Chamber, we would like to

 4     thank you and wish you a good journey back.  Thank you.

 5             We adjourn and resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in Courtroom III.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

10                           April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.