Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12776

 1                           Thursday, 14 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The hearing is open -- in session,

 6     rather.

 7             Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Tolimir.  Good

 8     morning.  I wish to welcome a good morning to the Prosecution, to the

 9     Defence, and all the people who are helping us in and around this

10     courtroom.  Good morning also to the witness's counsel.  He's not there

11     yet, but he will be brought in shortly.

12             Since the President announced to us yesterday the Presiding Judge

13     will not be able to be here during this first session, pursuant to

14     Article 15 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence the Trial Chamber

15     is satisfied that it can sit.  Pursuant to the jurisprudence of this

16     Tribunal and the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, I am charged with

17     presiding this first hearing, first session.

18             We will continue this morning with the examination-in-chief, led

19     by the Prosecutor.  Mr. McCloskey told us yesterday that he needs 30 more

20     minutes to finish his examination-in-chief, and I hope that he will be

21     able to do so within that period of time.

22             Unless there is something to -- some issues to address right now,

23     I would like to have the witness brought in.  Are there any procedural

24     matters?  No, there are no procedural matters; no particular issues to

25     address either.


Page 12777

 1             So, please, could you call the witness, Mr. Usher.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3                           WITNESS:  ZORAN CARKIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

 6             Good morning, Witness, Mr. Zoran Carkic.  I wish you a good

 7     morning.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I would like to remind you that

10     the oath that you gave yesterday, according to which you swore to tell

11     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, still applies.

12             So, Mr. McCloskey, it's your witness.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

14             Good morning, Mr. President, and good morning,

15     Your Honour Judge Nyambe, and everyone also.

16             I, unfortunately, think -- if we could go back a little bit.  We

17     need to -- we can stay in open session.  And if we could go to

18     65 ter 7309.  This will be the aerial image of Sjemec.

19             And, Your Honours, for your knowledge, when we receive these

20     materials, they come in electronic format, they get put in our

21     evidence -- electronic system in another electronic format, and then they

22     get transferred to e-court in another electronic format.  And while over

23     the years we've gotten much better, these -- they don't come out as

24     precisely as we receive them.  And so we did print out from the original

25     electronic format a -- on photo paper, and I've shown this to Mr. Gajic


Page 12778

 1     and General Tolimir, and just so you can see it to get a better look at

 2     it, because I know it was of some discussion.  And I would offer 7309,

 3     which is a replica of this, in evidence.  It's one that doesn't have any

 4     markings, so that -- you can keep that, if you'd like it.  I'll get a

 5     copy for the Defence as well.  And I'll just show it to the witness

 6     briefly as well, just to see if he has any additional comments, having

 7     seen a better view of it.  As you can see, it's the same image, but it

 8     doesn't -- it's not clouded by the yellows and other hues that, for some

 9     reason, end up on the image.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

11     Mr. McCloskey.  The Trial Chamber has seen the picture, but I would also

12     like the Defence and the witness to be able to see it first.

13             The parties have looked at this photograph.

14             Mr. McCloskey, what would you like to do?  Would you like this

15     basic photo, this paper photo, to be admitted in to file, or what would

16     you like to do, exactly?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we can just offer the electronic replica

18     of the photo into evidence and people can just have that, if they want

19     it, for their files.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure what we can do with

20     physical documents in this courtroom anymore.  And it's not necessary,

21     really.  As long as we have the replica.  And we'll always have this

22     photograph if anyone wants to look at it.

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             The Trial Chamber believes that it is acceptable, so this

25     document will get a number.


Page 12779

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 7309 shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit P2175.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4             Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 6                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

 7        Q.   And, Mr. Carkic, good morning.  The photo is very similar to the

 8     one you spoke of.  Is there any comment you'd like to make on it or any

 9     changes in your testimony?

10        A.   Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

11             This physical form of the photograph is practically a pale copy

12     of what we see on the screen.  This is all that I can comment on.  I

13     cannot deal with the date, as indicated here, because I don't know when

14     that was created.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

16             Mr. President, I would now like to go into the subject-matter

17     that we left off.  And I believe that we should be in private session,

18     based on the previous rulings.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very good.

20             Can we please go into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)


Page 12780

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Page 12789

 1     (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6             I would like to thank Mr. McCloskey for finishing on time, almost

 7     on time, and we have now ended the examination-in-chief.

 8             Witness, you will now be cross-examined by the Defence.  It is

 9     their right to put questions to you, to which you will have to answer

10     calmly and courteously.

11             General Tolimir, yesterday you've indicated that you needed eight

12     hours for this cross-examination, and whereas the Prosecutor used

13     approximately three hours.  The Presiding Judge, Judge Fluegge, said, in

14     English, that this evaluation seemed to be a little bit inappropriate,

15     appeared to be or seemed to be slightly inappropriate.  I will not

16     necessarily use the same words.  However, I would just like to make a

17     comment.

18             When it comes to time between examination-in-chief and the

19     cross-examination, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence does not allow an

20     exact grid in terms of how much time should be given to either parties.

21     However, the Rules are clear in saying that it is the Trial Chamber which

22     has to make sure that we don't waste time and that the principle of

23     equity should always be applied, equity and equality between parties.

24             The jurisprudence of this Tribunal varies from case to case when

25     it comes to applying this.  So when we have -- for instance, in the


Page 12790

 1     Krajisnik case, the Trial Chamber granted at each time 60 per cent of the

 2     time of the examination-in-chief to the Defence for the

 3     cross-examination.  In the Martic case, the Trial Chamber granted the

 4     same time to the Defence as they did to the Prosecutor, so it was equal

 5     at a hundred per cent on both sides.

 6             Now, recently in the Karadzic case, the Trial Chamber set some

 7     criteria when it comes to spreading the time between the

 8     cross-examination and the examination-in-chief, and each time it is up to

 9     the Chamber to decide on the amount of hours of the time that would be

10     granted to the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination.

11             But I would also like to mention the Prlic case.  As you know, I

12     also sit on that trial.  And in that particular trial, we have the

13     principle of equality.  The Defence has a hundred per cent of time

14     granted to the Prosecutor.  And, as you know, in the Prlic trial, there

15     are six accused.  So when the Prosecution has, for instance, one hour,

16     the Defence has also one hour, and the six accused have to share that one

17     hour, for instance, in a case like that.

18             So there was an appeal made by the Defence in that last case, but

19     the Appeals Chamber did not condemn the Trial Chamber in the Prlic case.

20     However, the Trial Chamber said that it is up to each Chamber and that

21     they have the discretionary power.

22             I would just like to remind you of this because, in fact, now I

23     will give you the time for your cross-examination.  I do not want to

24     object to your request because, to my mind, up until now you have used

25     very well the Trial Chamber's time.  On many occasions, you have decided


Page 12791

 1     to cross-examine in a shorter amount of time than was granted to the

 2     examination-in-chief, and even sometimes you have even completely -- you

 3     have decided not to cross-examine.

 4             So I would like to say personally, to my mind, this, but I would

 5     also like to ask you to focus on relevant matters and to try to avoid

 6     repetition, knowing very well, of course, that you are defending

 7     yourself.

 8             So there you are, General Tolimir.  You have the floor.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Mindua, I greet everyone.  I

10     wish peace unto this home.  I hope that this trial day and the whole

11     trial end in keeping with God's will, not as I would wish it.  And I wish

12     a pleasant stay to Witness Carkic and his counsel, Mr. Stojanovic.  I

13     hope they will feel comfortable here and have a safe journey home.

14             I will try to complete my cross-examination in as little time as

15     possible and would really focus on those issues that are the most

16     relevant to this case and use only the most important documents, such as

17     those used yesterday and today.  Whatever time allocation the Court

18     decides upon, I will accept it.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Carkic, since we are speaking the same language, you have a

22     screen before you where you see a LiveNote of what we are saying, so I

23     would ask you to watch the typing and wait with your answer until the

24     typing of my question finishes, and only then start answering.  That

25     would be of great assistance to the interpreters.


Page 12792

 1             Yesterday, in the summary of the Prosecution, you were asked

 2     whether you had been a member of the JNA, and there was some confusion

 3     about the year and the time, but you've cleared that up.  I'm not going

 4     to ask you about that anymore.

 5             Just tell me about your knowledge, while you were in Sarajevo,

 6     about the massacre in Sarajevo.

 7        A.   General, first of all, I would like to greet you and wish you a

 8     long life and a happy life.

 9             I don't know the answer to the question of my own relevance as a

10     witness, because I did not have occasion to see it, but I was in Sarajevo

11     at that critical time when there was this exchange of Alija Izetbegovic

12     and the attempt to implement the agreement that from the staff

13     headquarters in the centre of Sarajevo, in the park, people be pulled

14     out, and that Alija Izetbegovic, with his daughter, gets safely home.

15             We, as our unit, received a signal --

16        Q.   You now say what happened, happened.  Do you know what exactly

17     happened, and what time, what year?  Because we need it for the record.

18        A.   It happened, I think, in May, early May.  Which date exactly, I

19     don't remember, but it could be the 3rd or the 4th of May, 1992, when the

20     column of people heading towards Lukavica was broke off, attacked.  And

21     on that occasion, a number of soldiers were killed.  Many of them were

22     captured.  And from what we found out, they were later mistreated.  My

23     unit came into the area of Grbavica and Vraca on the morning of the 5th.

24     That's all I know.

25        Q.   Just tell me, if you know, who took those soldiers prisoners,


Page 12793

 1     according to your own information, and who killed those who were killed?

 2        A.   It was a mixed unit consisting of some JNA soldiers, conscripts

 3     doing their regular military service, and some reservists of the JNA.

 4     And the massacre was perpetrated, according to our information, the

 5     combined forces of the Patriotic League and the Green Berets.

 6        Q.   Tell us, please, was there a single trial of anyone who

 7     committed -- who participated in the massacre of the column of soldiers

 8     who were withdrawing from Sarajevo?

 9        A.   No, although I'm convinced that it is high time, because I

10     listened personally to Ejub Ganic persuading Alija Izetbegovic that he

11     was not in a position to lead, that he was in captivity, and although he

12     was in that situation, he was practically being protected and kept safe

13     by JNA units.  And I believe there was involvement of the Bosnian

14     politicians at the time that played a crucial role, and unfortunately

15     Jovan Divjak was part of all that and he was in the field at the time.

16        Q.   As we learn in history that the assassination in Sarajevo

17     triggered the war between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia in 1914,

18     I'm sure we will be learning in history that the killing of the column of

19     soldiers withdrawing from Sarajevo in 1992 triggered the war in Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina.

21             Can you tell the Trial Chamber:  Was it a deliberate crime

22     intended to start an inter-nation war among people who had, until then,

23     been living peacefully together?

24        A.   I'm really not qualified to make such judgements.  I believe that

25     if Alija Izetbegovic had any say in it, it wouldn't have happened.  And I


Page 12794

 1     believe that there would have been more literate and better leadership on

 2     both sides.  However, some other worse people got the upper hand.  But,

 3     in any case, it was obvious that the whole thing had been planned.

 4             And before that, there was another incident that ended in a

 5     killing, the killing of a member of a Serbian wedding party, just before

 6     the war, just before the outbreak of the war.  And the name of the victim

 7     was Gardovic.

 8        Q.   I asked you this because the history books will retain only the

 9     triggers and very few facts, so I want to emphasise this.

10             Now, I now want to ask you about one of the triggers for the

11     conflict in the region where you lived, for the specific reason that you

12     were part of the brigade that entered Grbavica at that moment.  Was that

13     unit from Sokolac?

14        A.   The unit from -- was from the Military Post Box 1524.  Those were

15     leftovers of the 16th -- sorry, 216th Mountain Brigade, which came in its

16     current composition to Sarajevo.  It was made up of two incomplete

17     battalions and battalion fire support, and the battalions were rump

18     precisely for the reason that their Muslim comrades had deserted, openly

19     or secretly, just before that in 1991.  At any rate, all the Muslim

20     members had left the unit.

21        Q.   Was that the only active-duty unit based in Han Pijesak, and did

22     it recruit all the conscripts from Rogatica, Sokolac, Han Pijesak, from

23     that entire area around Zepa?

24        A.   As far as I know, that was the only unit of its kind, of its

25     rank.  And it had good manning levels before the war, and it recruited


Page 12795

 1     from Sokolac, Rogatica, Han Pijesak, Olovo, perhaps even Kladanj,

 2     Vlasenica, Milici.  Most of the reserve soldiers - and I have to

 3     underline it's not a territorial defence unit; it was a JNA unit - most

 4     of the men were Muslims.  While in the area of Han Pijesak, although I

 5     didn't know it at the time because it was kept secret, in the territory

 6     of Crna Rijeka there was a smaller unit of the JNA used to secure

 7     installations.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  When your unit was mobilised, you said the Muslims

 9     were not present there.  Can you tell us where the Muslims from, say,

10     Han Pijesak and the surrounding villages went to?

11        A.   At first, they returned home.  However, we had intelligence on

12     Rogatica where, shortly after, units of the Patriotic League were formed.

13             In the military sense, Rogatica was not organised regarding the

14     JNA.  Later on the Rogatica Battalion was formed for the very reasons

15     I've discussed.  Once it was formed as part of the

16     216th Mountain Brigade, and I did not belong to that unit, I was with the

17     Sokolac Battalion, by that time there had already been Patriotic League

18     units in Rogatica and the various local communes.

19        Q.   You said it was on the 4th of May.  And on the 5th you arrived in

20     Grbavica, near Sarajevo, with the rest of the force.  Can you tell us why

21     the JNA column was attacked on the 4th of May, when it was only on the

22     15th of May that the JNA began withdrawing from Bosnia?

23        A.   I don't know whether I will draw a correct conclusion, but it is

24     my strong impression that it had to happen because it was planned for it

25     to happen.  The Muslim leadership in Sarajevo had planned it.  And


Page 12796

 1     similar things happened in Tuzla, following the same or a similar

 2     scenario.  A similar occurrence also took place on the 4th of June in

 3     Zepa, following another similar scenario.

 4             It is true that in the large barracks in the centre of town in

 5     Sarajevo there was a JNA unit which had already been attacked and

 6     besieged.  But once General Mladic arrived, things changed, and he made

 7     it known that he would not see that unit pull out of Sarajevo in shame.

 8     They were going to leave with their weapons.  I believe they eventually

 9     pulled out in mid-May 1992.  They went through the territory controlled

10     by the Muslim forces and through our lines as well, finally leaving the

11     territory of the then Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We need to be able to understand how the conflict

13     came about in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  You just mentioned the

14     4th of June, 1992.

15             I'd like to have D91 placed on the screen, and then I would have

16     a few questions about the 4th, but only after you have seen the document.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have D91.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You can see it on the screen.  This is a criminal report

20     submitted by the Interior Ministry of Republika Srpska and its

21     Sarajevo Public Security Centre, against those who committed the crime on

22     the 4th; that is to say, the attack on the JNA column in Zepa which was

23     trying to reach the Zlovrh elevation.  We have specific names, and the

24     report states:

25             "On the 4th of June" --


Page 12797

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see that on page 2.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] We won't go through the list of

 3     persons.  They are suspected of having committed this crime.  And on the

 4     following page, there is an explanation as to why the criminal report was

 5     submitted in the first place.

 6             Under 5, we can see the name of the Zepa Brigade commander,

 7     Avdo Palic, and we have some of his associates on the list as well.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on the

 9     lower part.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   "On the 4th of June, 1992, early in the morning, several military

12     vehicles and a fully-equipped battalion set out from Pale, over

13     Han Pijesak, towards Zepa.  They were members of the VRS, commanded by

14     Major Dragan Suka.  Their aim was to provide water, food, medical

15     supplies, and other necessities required by VRS members for a unit the

16     size of a platoon, which was in the area of Zepa, securing the military

17     facility there, as well as the TV relay station at Zlovrh.  Despite a

18     previous agreement with the Muslim leadership in Zepa on securing free

19     passage of the column to the facility and to Zlovrh, the Muslims, who

20     were then organised in the so-called Patriotic League and the

21     Green Berets, ambushed the column in a gorge near Zepa.  On that

22     occasion, 45 VRS members were killed."

23             And we see their names.

24             This is the explanation from the criminal report.  The persons

25     specified killed those listed in the statement of reasons.


Page 12798

 1             Do you know of this event, do you know when it took place, and do

 2     you know why the Muslims attacked the column once they had agreed that it

 3     could go through, and it was basically a humanitarian convoy?

 4        A.   General, sir, I wasn't in the area at the time, but I do recall,

 5     and later on it was going to be confirmed that it, indeed, took place on

 6     the 4th of June between Han Pijesak and Zlovrh, in the area of

 7     Budicin Potok.  This is where the ambush was set up.  It had a dramatic

 8     effect on the front-lines around Sarajevo.

 9             Many people who were killed on that occasion hailed from Pale.

10     When their burial took place at Pale, some people manning positions

11     around Sarajevo and Trebevic went to Pale.  Being acquainted with the

12     events, the Muslim forces seized of that opportunity to launch an attack

13     along different axes, and in a matter of hours they broke through the

14     front-line while most of the people manning those positions were

15     attending the funeral of those killed at Budicin Potok.

16        Q.   Thank you.  My question is this:  As you said a moment ago, this

17     was an act of murder of Serb soldiers who were part of a humanitarian

18     column.  Was this planned to cause fear, panic, and chaos by those who

19     desired such developments in Bosnia?

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Your Honour, I would object.  There is no

22     evidence in the record, nor did we receive translation, that this witness

23     has called this a murder.  So far everything I've heard is "a military

24     attack."  And so unless he has evidence to that or that -- or he can

25     state that it's his personal conclusion, that's fine, but to say that


Page 12799

 1     this witness said that or that there's evidence in the record is not

 2     correct.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir, you heard the

 4     objection raised by the Prosecutor.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Mindua.

 6             I heard the remark, but I was basically reading from the

 7     statement of reasons, where we can see that the Muslims had approved for

 8     the column to go through to supply water and food to the relay station,

 9     and that station was used by all ethnicities.  However, they attacked

10     them subsequently.  I just wanted to know why it took place.  Why did

11     they breach the agreement and kill those people?  And it is relevant for

12     this witness because some of them had come from his unit.  He also

13     referred to the attacks which took place during their burial.  Perhaps he

14     can answer.

15             I do not mean to simply disregard Mr. McCloskey's comment, but I

16     was reading from the statement of reasons.

17             I will later on refer to another criminal report which mentions

18     people who were captured during that attack, and they describe the

19     events.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I believe

21     Mr. Tolimir has answered your objections.  I believe we can proceed.

22             General Tolimir, please proceed.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Carkic, at the time when you were a soldier, was there any


Page 12800

 1     information as to why there were constant attacks on JNA units, although

 2     they did not participate in combat?  They were part of humanitarian

 3     convoys, supply columns, et cetera.  Did you have any information as to

 4     why these attacks occurred on JNA members?

 5        A.   Well, I can only draw my own conclusions.  I suppose we can see

 6     that the same scenario is followed throughout, to carry out these attacks

 7     on the JNA.  Most likely, the ultimate goal was to put forth a theory

 8     that the JNA carried out an aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 9     although it's a ridiculous story.  In any case, it seems that many

10     believed.  I believe that was the goal.  And, of course, they also wanted

11     to kill as many soldiers as possible.  Such acts do not correspond to any

12     sound military logic, but this is as it happened.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 3.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Here we can see why it was submitted, and we can see how those

16     who were taken prisoners were treated, as well as those who were killed.

17     Let's look at paragraph 2:

18             "According to existing indications, the main organisers of the

19     treacherous attack against the said VRS column followed by the killing of

20     some of those who were captured and wounded and whose bodies were

21     mutilated and burned, were the following:"

22             We see "Ramo Cardakovic" and others, including "Avdo Palic,"

23     command of the Zepa Brigade.

24             In the third paragraph on the next page, the witnesses of the

25     crime are referred to, the witnesses of the attack on the


Page 12801

 1     4th, 5th, and 6th of June, 1992.

 2             In the next paragraph, it says while being seriously wounded,

 3     they could hear those Muslims who carried out the attack threatening to

 4     kill everyone.  According to statements of witnesses, there was a

 5     seriously wounded VRS soldier who was completely helpless, who was killed

 6     by Nasko Lilic, et cetera.  There is also mention made of how those who

 7     were captured were later killed and their bodies burned.

 8             Those of you manning the units in that area, such as your unit in

 9     Han Pijesak, did you know that there had been a massacre of that column

10     trying to reach the relay station at Zlovrh?  Did you have any

11     information, as members of the army?

12        A.   Yes, information was known.  We heard of it.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can remove this document and go

15     to D92.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   We'll see it in a moment.

18             This is a new, amended criminal report about the same event, for

19     the crime of murder of those soldiers in Zepa.  It was drafted on the

20     23rd of August, 1995.  This is an amended report including 149 names of

21     those who participated in the massacre of the Serb soldiers in Zepa.  You

22     can see all their names there, including "Avdo Palic," commander of the

23     Zepa Brigade.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we go to page 7, please,

25     where the end of the list is.  We will see what the report states in its


Page 12802

 1     statement of reasons.  Apologies, page 9.  We need page 9 to see the

 2     statement of reasons.

 3             We can see it now.  Perhaps you can zoom in for the witness.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I will read out.  It is difficult to read, but I'll do my best:

 6             "During the preliminary criminal investigation, the authorised

 7     personnel undertook a series of operative activities aimed at documenting

 8     the crimes set forth in the disposition of this criminal report."

 9              There were interviews conducted and statements taken from the

10     witnesses and participants.  And the Muslim fighters who took part in it

11     were interviewed as well.  This is why we have this new, amended report

12     with 149 persons involved.

13             Do you know anything about the activities undertaken by security

14     organs in order to gain information about how the massacre occurred, when

15     the Serb soldiers were killed in Zepa in 1992?

16        A.   I'm not familiar with these documents.  They were created in

17     another period.

18             In 1995, there was intense work on compiling data on crimes

19     against humanity committed -- and committed crimes by Muslim forces

20     against the Serbian civilian population and the military column that was

21     moving towards Zlovrh, as well as investigations into other events.

22     Statements were taken.  As far as I can remember, a statement was also

23     taken from Avdo Palic and others.

24        Q.   Thank you.  This second indictment, does it confirm that

25     43 Serb soldiers were killed in an ambush, organised without any cause or


Page 12803

 1     outside of combat, by the Muslim Patriotic League?  Thank you.

 2        A.   General, sir, I'm not able to see here, in the explanation of the

 3     document, that that number is mentioned, but we knew that it was

 4     40-something persons, perhaps even more.  At one point, it appeared to be

 5     46 people, even, who were killed.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll down the

 8     charges so that we can see the second paragraph on this page - thank

 9     you - which contains that number.  Thank you.  Can you please scroll down

10     the Serbian version a little bit.  Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And you can see here -- we're looking at the - first, second -

13     third paragraph in the third line.  It states:

14             "On 4th of June, 1992, at the place called Riza, near the village

15     of Brloznik, at the Han Pijesak-Godjenje-Stoborani crossroads, they

16     carried out an attack on a column of military vehicles and soldiers of

17     the Army of Republika Srpska, on which occasion they killed

18     43 VRS soldiers and officers, burned and destroyed a large number of

19     vehicles and other materiel and technical equipment, and, in

20     contravention of the rules ..."

21             And so on.

22             I'm sorry.  Did you know that this happened?  And you can see

23     that this was stated by those who participated in the attack on this

24     column .

25        A.   Yes, I did hear of it.  And today, there is a monument on that


Page 12804

 1     place, and every year, at the anniversary, there is a memorial service in

 2     honour of those soldiers who were killed.

 3        Q.   Can we now look at what you gathered, and in terms of data about

 4     the weapons and preparations of the B&H army for fighting in that region,

 5     because you were in that area.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the number.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is a document that you drafted.  You will probably recognise

10     it because it is your signature at the bottom of the document.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D162.  Thank you.

12             Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In e-court, can we now see that this is a document of the command

15     of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, Organ for Security and

16     Intelligence, dated the 31st of December, 1993?  The document is titled

17     "Intelligence and Security Information, Zepa-93."

18             Are you able to tell us, according to your best recollection, why

19     you drafted this kind of document, and what was the specific reason that

20     this document was drafted?

21        A.   General, I cannot really remember.  If it's a long, detailed

22     document, perhaps it was drafted for the purposes of the annual

23     counter-intelligence evaluations relating to the situation in the AOR.

24     I can only see one page, but you said it was a long document, so that

25     could be that.  Or it could be a detailed analysis also.  These kinds of


Page 12805

 1     analyses were done.  It wasn't unusual to present an overview of all the

 2     intelligence data according to a set format.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 14 in e-court

 5     so that the witness could look at his signature so that we could identify

 6     the precise document.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   We can see your signature.  It says "Chief of Section" or "Organ,

 9     Captain Zoran Carkic."  Is that your actual signature that you placed

10     above the typing "Chief of Organ, Zoran Carkic"?  Thank you.

11        A.   It's very similar to my signature.

12             In that period, for some strange reason, I kept changing my

13     signature.  I had different signatures.  But I do not dispute that I did

14     draft analysis documents, and I'm not disputing that this is my

15     signature.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the first page

17     of the document.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And can you answer this question, please:  In this evaluation or

20     assessment, you stated the number of soldiers, the number of population

21     in Zepa.  Are you able to tell us, are you able to tell the

22     Trial Chamber, what the parameters were so that we can see how big a

23     territory was occupied by the enclave and how many soldiers were spread

24     out in this area?

25        A.   After the demilitarisation process began in the spring of 1993,


Page 12806

 1     the enclave, in the military sense, the way we viewed it from a military

 2     aspect, had about -- occupied an area of about 100 square kilometres,

 3     perhaps a little less, orthogonally.  But in view of the terrain that is

 4     specific for that area, in our assessment we believed that it was some

 5     115 or 150 kilometres of territory.  The territory included two

 6     municipalities: that part of the zone belonging to the Rogatica

 7     municipality and the rest belonging to the Srebrenica municipality.  And

 8     I'm thinking of the villages of Luke and Krusev Dol there, which are

 9     located east of Zepa, at a higher elevation.

10        Q.   And in your analysis pertaining to the demilitarisation period in

11     1993 or immediately prior to it - actually, the analysis was done in late

12     1993/early 1994 - and then on page 4 you speak about the relations

13     between Srebrenica and Zepa.  And on page 4 of this page, I'm going to

14     quote to you something, and then you can answer my question.

15             The fourth paragraph begins as follows.  We're looking at page 5.

16     I was actually looking at the previous page.  I made a mistake.

17             This is paragraph 4, and I quote:

18             "The life-line of the entire zone is the open corridor

19     Zepa-Srebrenica.  The corridor is being used on a daily basis for

20     military purposes or pursuant to the requirements of the civilian

21     population.  The people from Zepa are trading cigarettes, tobacco, salt,

22     and coffee with the people from Srebrenica."

23             Are you able to tell us what you know about this corridor and

24     what was happening in the corridor, focusing on military questions, and

25     how was it that Srebrenica was receiving its supplies through Zepa?  Can


Page 12807

 1     you please tell us what you know about that?

 2        A.   Since this was outside of the AOR of our brigade, but, in any

 3     case, it was in the zone of interest that I was covering, as the

 4     intelligence organ at the time, we compiled data about the meeting point

 5     between the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves.  They were already safe areas

 6     at the time that this document was drafted.  They were subject to certain

 7     restrictions.  There were UNPROFOR check-points.  And based on what I

 8     know, there were UNPROFOR check-points in the Zepa zone as well.

 9             The passage was not permitted, especially passage involving

10     engagement of soldiers in the corridor.  However, information and the

11     situation in the field will indicate that the corridors were used for

12     different purposes, military, civilian purposes, throughout 1993 and

13     1994, until certain activities were undertaken to place the corridor

14     under some form of control.  Sometimes, this was sporadic, more or less

15     successful, and then the corridor would be reactivated again.  In any

16     case, according to our information, during 1995 it was used, in

17     particular, for smuggling and the sale of fuel, which was in short supply

18     in the zones.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not going to call up any new documents.  It's

20     time for a break now.  So I just want to ask you this:  Was the Zepa

21     corridor primarily used to supply arms to Srebrenica?  Thank you.

22        A.   Our information also indicated that that was the case, especially

23     in 1995 when there were more frequent contingents of weapons supplied by

24     helicopters.

25        Q.   Thank you.


Page 12808

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Mindua, if we're

 2     not going to have the break, I'm going to put my next question.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, General Tolimir, it is just

 4     about 10.35 on the clock in front of us, so it is definitely time to have

 5     our first break.

 6             We shall stop now and resume at 11.00.  The Court stands

 7     adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning.  I would like to greet everybody,

11     as I was not present during the first session.  Now the Bench is complete

12     again.

13             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   A moment ago we were discussing document D62 and supplies of

17     military and civilian resources through Srebrenica and Zepa.  You said

18     there were also air-lifts.

19             Could we now look at D67.  And when we have it, I'd like to ask

20     you a question.  And then you can tell us all about -- all you know about

21     the air-lifts.

22             There it is.  It's an interim report from the

23     Intelligence Administration of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, their

24     Anti-Electronic Combat Section, dated 13 July 1995, and it's called

25     "Interim Report Delivered Through the 1st Corps Command to the President


Page 12809

 1     of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina."  And in this document signed by

 2     Rasim Delic, they inform Alija Izetbegovic of all the steps they had

 3     taken to reinforce the military in Srebrenica and Zepa, and they say:

 4             "Specifically, the following has been done for Srebrenica and

 5     Zepa:  To start with, lethal assets and materiel and technical equipment

 6     were brought in on foot in fairly small quantities."

 7             And then:

 8             "Seventeen helicopter sorties were made, and in each of them a

 9     helicopter was hit.

10             "We sent another helicopter with engineers and mechanics for one

11     of the helicopters that was hit and had remained in Zepa, and repaired it

12     successfully, and then both helicopters returned."

13             The next page shows all the weapons they sent to Srebrenica and

14     Zepa; that is, to Srebrenica via Zepa.

15             You told us that military supplies were brought in to Srebrenica

16     as well through Zepa, so I'd like to know:  What was your information,

17     the information and intelligence available to your brigade and your

18     section, about military supplies from Zepa to Srebrenica?

19        A.   Our intelligence reports indicated that there was an exchange of

20     incoming weapons from Zepa to Srebrenica, that there were helicopter

21     flights planned in such a way to bring supplies in one single flight to

22     both Srebrenica and Zepa.  We got that intelligence by monitoring radio

23     communications but also by talking to certain persons.

24        Q.   Did you have any knowledge that Muslims were militarily

25     maintaining the corridor between Srebrenica and Zepa and they did not


Page 12810

 1     allow even the UNPROFOR to put check-points there?

 2        A.   I know they used that corridor for military purposes, as well as

 3     civilian purposes, and I know that the situation was particularly

 4     sensitive at one of the check-points, I believe, manned by the

 5     Ukrainian Battalion around Bradovica [phoen] and Stublic.  So from the

 6     northern border of the Zepa enclave, supplies were brought to the

 7     Srebrenica enclave.  The UNPROFOR tried to intervene several times, but

 8     they were eventually forced to condone this smuggling.

 9        Q.   You said that the black-marketeering was rife and that one kilo

10     of salt was sold for as much as 30 Deutschmark.  Can you explain why the

11     prices were so high, and if you had information about this smuggling and

12     black-marketeering, and whether the UNPROFOR was involved in any way?

13        A.   We did have information.  After the first convoys that arrived at

14     Zepa enclave, there occurred significant changes in the attitude of the

15     civilian and military leadership of Zepa.  They were pumping up food and

16     other resources.  There was an operation called Package, which was

17     probably a training operation by NATO, because they had brought enormous

18     food supplies by land, and the Operation Parachute was hardly even

19     necessary.  We were not able to establish for sure that they received

20     ammunition that way, but we certainly knew that they had received

21     weapons.

22        Q.   Can you tell us whether those bare necessities, such as food,

23     were brought -- were received in such enormous quantities by exaggerating

24     the number of the inhabitants of the enclave?

25        A.   Certainly, that was the case.


Page 12811

 1        Q.   Since you had contacts with the UNPROFOR, did you try to point

 2     out to them what is happening, in terms of smuggling?

 3        A.   Yes.  This check-point at Rogatica was a very delicate and tricky

 4     one in terms of intelligence and security, and we always insisted on

 5     inspecting all the convoys, whether they were organised by the UNPROFOR

 6     or humanitarian organisations.  And as a rule we would always find extra

 7     material or material of the kind that was forbidden or simply not

 8     reported in advance.  And our brigade had positions facing these

 9     enclaves, which made our position very tricky.  That's why the situation

10     at these check-points and the problems there were very serious.

11        Q.   At page 3 of the transcript, line 7, I believe the -- sorry,

12     page 23, line 7, the Prosecutor asked you a question about when you dealt

13     with that and you answered that upon request of Commander Pusic, you went

14     to him to inform him of your knowledge about the enemy.  Did that

15     commander, having knowledge about the enemy, have the duty to inform me?

16     Did he have the right to inform me when I was in the area?

17        A.   He certainly did.

18        Q.   When the Prosecutor asked you where it was, on page 23, line 13,

19     you answered, in line 15, that it was at Boksanica, that command post was

20     at Boksanica.  Did you came [as interpreted] because you were summoned by

21     me or because you had to have prior approval of your commander?  Were you

22     summoned by him?

23        A.   I think I was summoned by my commander.  Since I was carrying out

24     my regular duties, and the main duty was to cover the front-line facing

25     Gorazde, sometimes I went to that command post.  On the occasion you are


Page 12812

 1     talking about, I believe I approached his vehicle to show him on the map

 2     the exact deployment of enemy forces facing our advance front-line.

 3        Q.   So you came because you were summoned by your commander.  Tell

 4     me, were all security organs in every unit subordinated exclusively and

 5     primarily to their commander and were duty-bound to carry out their

 6     orders, first and foremost?

 7        A.   The military structure, in terms of security and intelligence

 8     organs, was exactly as you describe.  In the organisational structure of

 9     the units of the VRS and according to the system of subordination, our

10     organs were subordinated to the commander within the brigade.

11        Q.   Were security organs at all levels subordinated to the commander,

12     because the Prosecutor asked you yesterday who was superior to Beara?

13     Did Beara have his own commander, just like you had yours?

14        A.   Certainly, yes, because Colonel Beara led the

15     Security Administration.  And in view of the separation of tasks, he also

16     had to be answerable to the commander of the Main Staff.

17        Q.   You were asked yesterday about the responsibilities and

18     subordination, and my question is:  To whom are security organs

19     subordinated to?  And we will later discuss the professional line.

20        A.   In the chain of command, they are subordinated to the commander

21     of the unit within which they work.

22        Q.   As a security and intelligence organ in your brigade, did you

23     have the duty to provide professional guidance to the corresponding

24     security organs at lower levels, such as battalions?

25        A.   It was certainly one of my responsibilities to co-operate and


Page 12813

 1     help with the professional aspects of the security organs in lower-level

 2     units, not in any command sense.

 3        Q.   You said you were helping out with professional aspects of their

 4     work.  But in terms of command, were you able to command security organs

 5     in lower-level units?

 6        A.   As far as I know, security organs were not quite the same as

 7     other organs.  They were not able to issue commands.  They could provide

 8     guidance, suggestions, proposals, requests, but they could not command

 9     units.

10        Q.   You also said yesterday that Beara could propose but he could not

11     order.  Is that the case?

12        A.   I believe the same principle applied at all levels.

13        Q.   Since I'm trying to be brief and skipping as much as I can, we

14     have now completed this set of questions about duties and

15     responsibilities.

16             Could we now see a Prosecution exhibit -- no,

17     Defence Exhibit D49.

18             You were examined for a long time about Sjemec.  Please look at

19     the document again, and then I'll have a few questions.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this would come up on the screen, I would

21     like to put a final question to the last topic to the witness.

22             I'm only talking about the relevant time in 1995.  Who were the

23     officers of the VRS who issued orders to you, personally?  From whom did

24     you receive any order; do you recall that?  I'm interested in the factual

25     situation and what you really recall.  Who issued order to you?


Page 12814

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat this again.

 2             At that time, there was a number of officers and high-ranking

 3     officers from the VRS, from the Drina Corps, and the Main Staff, and

 4     other brigade units.  The task I spoke about, my general assignment in

 5     that period, was received from my commander.  There were certain summons

 6     and calls from other commanders, calls for briefings, because my

 7     information was valuable to various commanders.  Sometimes other

 8     commanders would ask my commander to summon me, and that's the typical

 9     situation in which I would go up there.

10             In one case, which I discussed in private session - that's the

11     27th or the 28th, outside Borike Hotel - I was told the order was issued

12     by the chief.  To me, that meant that the order was issued by

13     Ratko Mladic, and I didn't think twice.  I don't remember receiving any

14     orders from General Tolimir in that sense.

15             And in that document where Colonel Beara addresses the brigade

16     command, you can see he's not addressing me directly.  He's addressing

17     the brigade commander to let me carry out an assignment.

18             So, in principle, I received orders from the command structure.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was not asking you about the specific incident

20     outside the Borike Hotel, but in general, in July 1995.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I referred to the Borike Hotel as

22     an example.  In principle, commands come from commanders, meaning that I

23     could have received an order from the commander of the Main Staff, the

24     commander of the Drina Corps, or the brigade commander.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.


Page 12815

 1             I saw you on your feet, Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             Mr. Carkic just made a reference to a document that he had spent

 4     a fair amount of time talking about this morning, and I think his answer

 5     would make a lot more sense to you if you would see that document.  And

 6     I think it may help, be in response to your question as well.  But, of

 7     course, that was in -- we were in private session during that.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's no need to repeat that.  I will have the

 9     chance to check all that, personally.  Thank you.

10             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             We will take into account this request, and we will provide the

13     document referred to by Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You said that, in principle, commanders issue orders and that you

16     could receive an order from any command level, be it the level of

17     brigade, or corps, or the Main Staff.  If an officer receives an order,

18     an officer of the brigade, such as you, receives an order from the

19     Drina Corps commander, what is his obligation vis-ŕ-vis his own brigade

20     commander and vis-ŕ-vis the person issuing the order?

21        A.   General, apologies.  I was not a brigade commander.  I was the

22     security organ, intelligence and security organ.  If I received an order

23     from a certain command level, I am duty-bound to inform my own commander

24     of it.

25        Q.   I had that in mind precisely.  I apologise if I called you


Page 12816

 1     commander.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have D49.  It is on

 3     the screen, I believe.  It has to do with the accommodation of POWs.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   In the first sentence, we can see this:

 6             "If you are unable to find adequate accommodation for all POWs

 7     from Srebrenica, we hereby inform you that space with pallets has been

 8     arranged for 800 POWs in the 1st Brigade in Sjemec."

 9             Since yesterday, during Mr. McCloskey's examination, you said

10     that in 1992 and until the spring of 1993 there was a battalion of your

11     brigade at Sjemec, can you tell us whether it was in the particular area

12     of Sjemec referred to in the message, and did they use pallets for their

13     accommodation?

14        A.   General, the unit that was there in December of 1992 and later on

15     in 1993 was billeted, for the most part, in the facilities along the

16     regional road which goes through Sjemec.  As regards the facilities

17     discussed yesterday, the wooden facilities, they were not accommodated in

18     those, but there may well have been some pallets referred to here there.

19        Q.   Does this message provide the specific location as to where that

20     accommodation was available or is only the general region of Sjemec

21     mentioned?

22        A.   I cannot recall such details.  Therefore, it is difficult for me

23     to say which facility it could be.  I only know of those facilities that

24     were shown to me, and that's the only thing I can tell you anything

25     about.  However, these could have been specific buildings at that


Page 12817

 1     location, including the barns and the other buildings which may have been

 2     better equipped.

 3        Q.   I cannot decide on what questions the OTP will put to you, but

 4     I'm asking you this:  Is this message intended only to inquire about the

 5     accommodation and to provide information about it, or does it also

 6     specify a certain location?

 7        A.   Yes, it does.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I remind both speakers to pause between

 9     question and answer.  We should avoid overlap, for the sake of the

10     interpreters and the court recorder.

11             Please carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Did your brigade have technical capabilities of re-opening that

16     facilities [as interpreted], if needed, in order to house POWs?

17        A.   Yes, I think we would have been able to do that.

18        Q.   Let's look at the third paragraph, which reads:

19             "If you send them to this sector, this must be done at night,

20     using the transport and troops of the 1st Infantry Brigade."

21             Is this a suggestion or only providing information as to what

22     means are available to transport the POWs to a location unknown to the

23     Main Staff?

24        A.   Well, I suppose that is the gist or the meaning of the sentence.

25        Q.   Throughout the war, including this period in time and after that,


Page 12818

 1     at Sjemecko Polje, which you saw yesterday on an aerial image, were there

 2     ever any POWs accommodated there who were under the control of your

 3     brigade?

 4        A.   I don't have such information.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Within a chain of command, is it allowed that a

 6     junior level of command should offer facilities to a more senior level of

 7     command that is within its area of responsible for use?  Is this telegram

 8     suggesting that it has to be done or is it only providing information as

 9     to the opportunities there are?

10        A.   Well, this can only be seen as a proposal, as a possibility.

11     This is no order, and the first, the very first, word tells you that.  It

12     is a proposal.

13        Q.   Is this proposal an offer to use the facilities of the brigade,

14     because if it's a proposal, it has to be sent for approval to the

15     commander?  Do you think this is a proposal or merely providing

16     information?

17        A.   Practically speaking, this is simply providing information, with

18     a proposal in its conclusion.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Is it a task of a security organ --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise.  Just, it seemed like we might be

22     getting off this document.

23             And I think it's clear to everyone, but just for the record, the

24     translation we're getting is that this is the 1st Infantry Brigade that

25     this is reference to, and, of course, it's the "1st plpbr," which we know


Page 12819

 1     is the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, which is the

 2     Rogatica Brigade.  And so just because this is an important document, I

 3     want to make clear that that's understood on the record, because it's

 4     very hard for the translator to get that abbreviation.  So -- and I'm

 5     sure everyone agrees.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you are referring to page 42, line 6; is

 7     that correct?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can't see it, but I'm sure you've --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was -- Mr. Tolimir was reading something from

10     the document, and it was not -- I don't know if he read it correctly or

11     not.  In the transcript, I see:

12             "... using the transport and troops of the 1st Infantry Brigade."

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  That's precisely what I was referring to.

14     Thank you for getting that line and page.  And I'm sure everyone will

15     agree that it was the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, or the

16     Rogatica Brigade, which is what the document actually says.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And, specifically, the transport and troops of

18     that unit.  Thank you.

19             Mr. Tolimir, sorry for this interruption.  You put a question to

20     the witness, and that was:

21             "Is it a task of a security organ?"

22             Could you answer this question, please, sir.  No, this is a

23     question to you, Witness.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need to conclude my question.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]


Page 12820

 1        Q.   Is it a task of security organs to secure accommodation of POWs?

 2        A.   No, it is not.

 3        Q.   Whose task would it be within a brigade?

 4        A.   It is something that the brigade command needs to deal with,

 5     including, most likely, the brigade commander and the Logistics Unit.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2D295.  Thank

 7     you. [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We need 148, and it is item 295.

10     D148, item 295.  It is page 125 in the Serbian and 79 in the English

11     version.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Carkic, we'll see what the provisions have to say about it,

14     and I'm showing it only now because I didn't want to suggest anything to

15     you.

16             We see item 295 of the command rules for the level of brigade and

17     corps.  It reads as follows:

18             "Logistics support for prisoners of war includes the provision of

19     necessary supplies and health-care.  Provision of supplies to prisoners

20     in prisoner stations and other locations, while they are under the

21     jurisdiction of the armed forces, is organised by logistics and other

22     organs in units which have captured them."

23             This confirms what you have just said.

24             My question is this:  Was it standard practice in your brigade as

25     well for the logistics units to take care of POWs, because security


Page 12821

 1     organs often comprised only two persons at a time and they couldn't

 2     handle it?

 3        A.   Yes, that was standard practice.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  This concludes the set of questions about the

 5     so-called Sjemec, which we have discussed.

 6             When Judge Fluegge was absent, we saw a document that was drafted

 7     by you, containing enemy information.  You said that your brigade

 8     commander summoned you to convey that information because you were the

 9     most competent person in the brigade collecting enemy data.  Tell us

10     this, please:  Was it your task -- was it your basic task to be assistant

11     commander for security and intelligence, and were you supposed to acquire

12     information on enemy forces?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you forward all such information to your commander,

15     Mr. Kusic?

16        A.   Yes, all of it.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday and today, several times you've said that

18     your commander engaged you to monitor activities around Gorazde, which is

19     on the opposite side from Zepa.  My question is:  Did any security organ

20     have the right to dispute the decision of your commander for you to

21     engage on military assignments there during the war?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Did anybody dispute the decision of the commander of the

24     Main Staff?

25        A.   No.  But I was called out into the field, and to me this is quite


Page 12822

 1     understandable and legitimate.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I stopped you because the

 3     translation was not concluded.  Please pause between question and answer

 4     in the next question.

 5             Continue, please.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Since I don't know English, just reply, please.  Did anyone,

12     including the staff commander, dispute the decision of your commander?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And can you please tell me if you went to any other

15     assignment upon the permission of your commander, so that your commander

16     would give permission every time you left for a new assignment?

17        A.   [Previous translation continues] ...

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to interrupt you.  The interpreters

20     couldn't get your answer because you immediately started with your answer

21     and the first part was not translated to us.  Before you repeat your

22     answer:  Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There may be a problem.  We have: "Did anyone" --

24             So:  "Did anyone, including the staff commander, dispute the

25     decision of your commander?"


Page 12823

 1             I've never heard a staff -- what a staff commander is, so --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter said, "Main Staff commander."

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This was a valid correction.

 5             We have to come back to the last question of Mr. Tolimir.  I

 6     repeat that:

 7             "Can you please tell me if you went to any other assignment upon

 8     the permission of your commander, so that your commander would give

 9     permission every time you left for a new assignment?"

10             That was the question.  Please now repeat your answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated yesterday, and I also said

12     this in my statements, that I would often be informed, while touring the

13     lines along the front towards Gorazde, via means of communication, that I

14     have been summoned to come to Borike.  But the approach and the

15     principle, in essence, in that case, or in such cases, lay in the order

16     of the brigade commander for me to be summoned, or possibly he received

17     an order to call me.  That is the logic.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Carkic.

21             Well, for the transcript, I see that we need to pay attention to

22     each sentence, and I wasn't doing that up to now.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So can we now look at 1D722,

24     page 16 in the Serbian and page 11 in the English.  Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]


Page 12824

 1        Q.   This is an interview of yours to the Prosecution on the

 2     23rd of February, 2011.  Can you please tell us if this is the interview

 3     to which the Prosecutor also referred and to which you referred during

 4     your examination-in-chief, when saying, I said that to the Prosecutor?

 5     Is that the interview that you are thinking of?

 6        A.   Yes, I think I referred to this document and also my statement

 7     yesterday -- my testimony yesterday.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the page I asked

10     for, line 16 and 17.  Can we look at the relevant page, please.  It's

11     page 11 in the English and page 16 in the Serbian.  Can we also have

12     these lines so that the witness can see them as well.

13             I don't see the bottom of the page, the number of the page.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you look at line 4 now, please.  It starts with that row --

16     line on this page, and it states:  "Zoran Carkic."  And it states:

17             "I got a task from the commander of the brigade especially to

18     cover a part of the front-line towards the Gorazde enclave."

19             And then later the investigator asked you:

20             "And what did that mean, exactly?"

21             And then you said:

22             "It meant regular visits to the front-line, informing the members

23     of the brigade about the situation at the other parts of the front-line,

24     constant checking of security systems and security measures that are

25     specific at the front-line, gathering of information about the enemy."


Page 12825

 1             My question is this:  Since the brigade commander sent you,

 2     pursuant to his decision, to a location where he wasn't, so can you

 3     please tell us, during the Zepa operation, where was he and where did he

 4     send you?

 5        A.   The commander was at the forward command post.  And again I say,

 6     my main assignment was to go to the opposite end of the AOR.  These were

 7     positions of our brigade facing Gorazde.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber why you

 9     had to be there and what was happening at that sector facing Gorazde.

10     Can you please answer briefly so that the Trial Chamber could see why you

11     were there.  Thank you.

12        A.   During 1995, in June, we had two major attacks from the Gorazde

13     enclave towards our positions.  And we were breaking through the

14     front-lines, or our lines were being broken, and for that reason we had

15     to engage men in order to retake that.  There was fighting, there were

16     killed and wounded persons, and preparations were ongoing for

17     preparations of members of the Gorazde unit, Muslim forces in Gorazde, to

18     link up with forces of the 1st Corps from Sarajevo and to ease the

19     pressure on the front around Sarajevo and around Zepa.  During the Zepa

20     operation, we had a significant attack from the Gorazde enclave at our

21     positions.

22        Q.   Thank you.  If you know, and probably do, could you please tell

23     the Trial Chamber whether at the time there was a Muslim

24     counter-offensive taking place and active combat from all enclaves

25     against the Army of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.


Page 12826

 1        A.   Yes.  All of that happened before, before the Army of

 2     Republika Srpska responded.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             Can we now look at D62.  Then we will come back to this statement

 5     of yours.

 6             Let me ask you this --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we look at page 19 of

 8     this statement and page 13 in the English.  Thank you.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   We can see here a part of your conversation with the OTP

11     investigator, as a part of which he showed you some footage from Zepa and

12     you were saying who you recognise.  And then we can see, after 45 or

13     46 minutes, he asks you, I quote; he asks you:

14             "Of course, it's me.  I said I saw General Tolimir several times,

15     and once in Zepa."

16             And so on.  While looking at the footage, he put that question to

17     you.

18             So, now, my question to you is this:  Were you also involved in

19     the Gorazde part of the front in order to resolve or execute the tasks

20     given to you by the commander during the evacuation, and can you please

21     tell the Trial Chamber what were the tasks that you were doing at the

22     time?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now the interpreters concluded their translation

24     of your previous question and we didn't have the answer of the witness on

25     the record.  Please pause.


Page 12827

 1             Please provide us with your last answer, sir.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer should have been

 3     affirmative in that sense, because I believe that my commander should

 4     have received an order to summon me.  And I think that is the principle

 5     that was functioning throughout that whole time.  As far as my engagement

 6     was concerned, I don't know whether he called me directly or whether he

 7     received an order from perhaps General Mladic to call me, or -- I mean,

 8     not me, specifically.  He perhaps decided to call me.  I assume that I

 9     was called pursuant to the line of command.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Since the investigator first showed you yourself in the footage,

14     how you were going in some buses, was your task to follow or escort the

15     buses that were carrying out the evacuation in Zepa?

16        A.   Yes, that was the beginning of that assignment.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             Yesterday, you said that citizens of Zepa went in two directions,

19     one to Sarajevo and one to Kladanj.  Can you please tell the

20     Trial Chamber:  What was your route in escorting them while crossing

21     through the Republika Srpska territory?

22        A.   My task lay along the Kladanj route.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Since there were two directions, Sarajevo and

24     Kladanj, does that reflect the wishes of the population as to which

25     destination they wanted to go to as long as the war was going on, as was


Page 12828

 1     defined by the agreement?  Thank you.

 2        A.   It did correspond to the expressed needs and wishes of the

 3     citizens to decide for themselves where they wanted to be evacuated.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P4D5 -- P495.

 6     This is the agreement on disarming the able-bodied men in Srebrenica.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not get all of the

 8     date.  It was in 1995.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll up the Serbian

10     version of the document that we are looking at on the screen so that we

11     can see 7, Article 7 or paragraph 7 of the agreement drafted by

12     Rajko Kusic and certified by Ratko Mladic.  And paragraph 7 says that:

13             "Pursuant to the Geneva Conventions of the 12th of August, 1949,

14     and Additional Protocols of 1979, the civilian population of Zepa be

15     enabled to freely choose their place of residence."

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you see this?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And can you please tell us if this was respected during the

20     evacuation, although it was a problem for Republika Srpska to provide the

21     option of two routes, two evacuations, and to provide escorts along those

22     two routes for the population that was moving out?  Thank you.

23        A.   I witnessed that this was something that was respected.  There

24     was a choice available, either to go to Sarajevo or to Kladanj.  And we

25     had some help from UNPROFOR, who provided some of the resources in


Page 12829

 1     carrying out this task.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I used OTP documents

 4     here, and I notice that in this paragraph 7 the word "for as long as the

 5     war lasts" has been erased, that they have a choice.  I would like my

 6     Legal Advisor to show the original document with the agreement, where

 7     that part of the sentence was not left out.  We need a little bit of time

 8     for him to find it.  I have only just asked for it, and then we will show

 9     this agreement.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   In the meantime, my question is:  Did any members of the Army of

12     Republika Srpska decide where the population would go, and was there any

13     kind of influence on the citizens while they were deciding where they

14     wanted to go?  Thank you.

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Can you tell us if you remember if anyone was separated from

17     those columns, from the buses, which also had some able-bodied men in

18     them, and that was something that we could see yesterday during our

19     examination-in-chief in the footage that was shown?

20        A.   During the last convoy to Kladanj, as we were coming back towards

21     Vlasenica, we were stopped at one location near the village of Luke, on

22     the road towards Kladanj.  This was territory under the control of the

23     Army of Republika Srpska.  There was a bus there that was supposed to

24     return to Rogatica.  That was the only case that I know of that a triage

25     was carried out there, and a certain number of people were returned to


Page 12830

 1     Rogatica under police escort, military police of the Drina Corps escort,

 2     as far as I can remember.

 3        Q.   Since you saw MPs from the Drina Corps, was this an activity

 4     ordered by the commander of your brigade or by the corps commander?

 5        A.   I think that my commander had nothing to do with that order.

 6        Q.   If an assignment is carried out by the police subordinated to the

 7     commander of the Drina Corps, not the commander of your corps that you

 8     are able to train, are you able to make an assessment or know anything on

 9     that basis?

10        A.   I don't understand the question.

11        Q.   How do you know that this triage, this separation, was done at

12     the orders of the commander of the Drina Corps?

13        A.   I don't know.  I'm just saying it could have happened that way,

14     because the military police of the Drina Corps was present.  I'm just

15     inferring that it was supposed to be on the orders of the commander of

16     the Drina Corps.

17        Q.   The Prosecutor showed you a document yesterday, signed by you,

18     where you wrote that a certain number of people separated by the military

19     police of the Drina Corps had their money taken away from them and that I

20     later ordered investigation as to who took money from these people, and,

21     indeed, a list was made by the -- of these offenders.  That was P1434.

22     It was on the last page of that document.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see P1434 again, the last

24     page.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before that is coming up on the screen, I would


Page 12831

 1     like to check if that was in private session yesterday.  I'm not sure

 2     about that.

 3             Mr. McCloskey, can you help us?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  That is the 30 July document, and I believe

 5     it was.  And so I think we should go in private session.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question that will

 8     be asked of the witness does not concern the matter for which we went

 9     into private session.  I, therefore, believe we can stay in open session,

10     with the consent of the witness and his counsel, of course.  The question

11     will concern the role of Mr. Tolimir, not the role of the witness.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please confer with your client, Mr. Stojanovic.

13                           [Witness and counsel confer]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go into private session just very

16     briefly.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)


Page 12832

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25                           [Open session]


Page 12833

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Document P1434 should not be broadcast.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             The last page, please.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This is a document where you stated all the problems that the

 9     detainees were experiencing.  You stated, also, who they were.  And,

10     among other things, money had been taken away from them.

11             And then it says, in paragraph 5:

12             "During the evacuation of the civilian population from Zepa on

13     the morning of 20th July and the separation of able-bodied Muslim from

14     the rest of the people, in the area of the primary school on the

15     Divca [phoen]-Kladanj road, during inspection and search, some Muslims

16     had money taken away from them.  These people complained to

17     General Tolimir and to me.  They said it was done by some people who were

18     commanded by a short, swarthy man."

19             It's obviously, says the text:

20             "Lieutenant Matic, who at the moment of separation of the Muslims

21     came to the site and carried out searches in the school and in the school

22     compound.

23             "General Tolimir demands that this case be investigated and the

24     money returned.

25             "By authorisation from General Tolimir," says the signature,


Page 12834

 1     "chief of intelligence and security, Captain Zoran Carkic."

 2             Now tell me, was this the reason --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you continue:  That will not be a problem

 4     to broadcast this document.  I checked again the transcript of yesterday;

 5     it was dealt with in open session.

 6             The last word of your quotation, Mr. Tolimir, is different on the

 7     text I see in front of me.  The last sentence reads:

 8             "General Tolimir demands that this case is investigated and money

 9     found," and not "returned."

10             This is the translation we have on the screen in English.  I

11     don't know the original text.

12             Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One other important detail:  In the document, the

14     first sentence, it has the date of the evacuation.  My document says "the

15     morning of the 28th."  In the LiveNote, it's got "20th," and that,

16     I think, should be corrected.  I don't know who made the mistake, but ...

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did.  We didn't find the text

18     in time.  And the last word in question is, indeed, "found," not

19     "returned."

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             Can we see the headline of this document to see the date.

22             Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I wasn't -- he wasn't reading the

24     headline.  He was reading that section.  It's page 57, line 7.  It was

25     the end of the document that he was reading from, and they just missed


Page 12835

 1     the date because it was so quick, I think.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             Mr. Tolimir, now put your question to the witness.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Carkic, this problem about the date occurred because I read

 7     too fast.

 8             Can you explain why this happened in the morning?  Did the convoy

 9     spend the night travelling to this spot where Lieutenant Matic took this

10     money away from people?

11        A.   Just give me a moment, please, to thank Mr. McCloskey for being

12     so careful about every detail of yesterday's questioning which led us to

13     go into private session at one point.

14             I believe this date here, 28 of July, is the exact date of this

15     event.  And as for the part where it says "in the morning," as far as I

16     remember, it was in the morning, because the convoy spent the night, had

17     to spend the night, at a section of the road between Vlasenica and Divca.

18     They had to stop because there was some combat going on in the broader

19     area of Kladanj.  Our AOR reports said that they had some advanced units,

20     scouting units, close to our positions, and that's possibly the

21     explanation for the skirmishes.  The convoy was unable to go on, and

22     that's why they continued in the morning.

23        Q.   Now, when I ordered you what I ordered, did you, when you signed

24     this, write, "By authorisation from General Tolimir," write that because

25     you felt it was necessary to emphasise it was on my orders?


Page 12836

 1        A.   Yes, that's the reason, although even without you being there and

 2     without anything you said I would have certainly taken steps to

 3     investigate.  But since you were there, I did what I did.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Carkic.  We will review the rest of this document

 5     in private session, including the list of persons who were wounded and

 6     the fair treatment accorded them.

 7             Now, since we are in open session, let me ask you this:  In your

 8     view, did both of us, the security and intelligence organs, propose to

 9     the command that all adequate conditions be provided to the prisoners of

10     war, under the circumstances?

11        A.   That's correct.  On several occasions, I was able to see displays

12     of your humanity, humaneness.

13        Q.   Then there's this issue of the representative of the ICRC who

14     came to list all the detainees in Rogatica.  The Prosecutor showed you a

15     65 ter document, 07304.  Let's look at it again.

16             While we wait, let me say, it's a document from the Command of

17     the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, dated 30th July.  It was sent

18     also to a sector of the Main Staff, and it was signed by Zoran Carkic.

19             We can now see it.  And right at the top, below the heading --

20     and the heading says:

21             "Visit to Prisoners of War in the Rogatica Military Holding

22     Centre by the ICRC Delegation:  Report."

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please don't broadcast the

24     document.  And I will protect the identity of the people who are in

25     detention, as the Prosecution asks.


Page 12837

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   It says:

 3             "Around 1000 hours on 30th of July, the prisoners of war in

 4     Rogatica were visited by an ICRC delegation from their Pale office,

 5     comprised of:"

 6             And then they list the members of their delegation.  We can skip

 7     that part.

 8             You can see that you wrote this report.  And if we turn to

 9     page 2, you say -- let's look at line 1:

10             "I informed the delegation about all the details they wanted to

11     know about.  There were also physicians attending medical examinations

12     performed by our physicians."

13             Does this confirm your earlier statement?  Did you, indeed, write

14     this document, and were you an eye-witness to this?

15        A.   I remember that.  I don't remember all the details, but I

16     remember that they came, that people were registered.  I recall that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In the examination-in-chief, you were asked several

18     times whether you registered the detainees, whether you reported them.

19     Did you report all the prisoners who were being held at this location in

20     Rogatica?

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the answer.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to interrupt you again.  We didn't receive

24     the interpretation of the answer because you started with your next

25     question earlier.


Page 12838

 1             Could you please give us your answer again.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The text of this document testifies

 3     that they were registered, they were reported to the ICRC commission, in

 4     a timely manner.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was:

 6             "Did you report all the prisoners who were being held at this

 7     location in Rogatica?"

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.  I think they were

 9     registered, those in the Military Holding Centre Rasadnik in Rogatica.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             I would like to tender this document.  And whatever we want to

14     ask about it in private session, we will ask once we go into private

15     session.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Carkic.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as an exhibit.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7304 shall be

20     assigned Exhibit D211.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             Could we please have P51 next so that we can see the original

25     text of the agreement, because in the document we just saw a moment ago,


Page 12839

 1     some important facts are missing.  Sorry, could we have D51 in e-court.

 2             Thank you.  Please zoom in so that we can see item 7.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   It reads:

 5             "In accordance with the Geneva Conventions of the

 6     12th of August, 1949, and the Additional Protocols of 1977, the civilian

 7     population of Zepa shall be given the freedom to choose their place of

 8     residence while hostilities continue."

 9             This is a very important part of the sentence: "while hostilities

10     continue."

11             My question is this:  Does it mean that under the agreement, that

12     evacuation, that transfer, was only in effect while hostilities continue;

13     in other words, that it was not foreseen as a permanent state of affairs?

14        A.   Yes, that is precisely the meaning.

15        Q.   Tell the Chamber whether, in the area of the former enclave of

16     Zepa, there are now Muslims living there.

17        A.   Nowadays, yes.  Some of them returned.  Perhaps some 300 houses

18     were reconstructed.  But most of them are only there on weekends.  There

19     are very few who reside there permanently in Zepa, so that figure is

20     actually rather small.

21        Q.   Does it indicate that after the hostilities, as foreseen by the

22     Dayton Accords, which followed the evacuation closely, they were free to

23     go back?

24        A.   Well, it was understood.  The returnee project was initiated and

25     was underway throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It is still underway.


Page 12840

 1     However, only the issue of property return was completely resolved.  As

 2     for the physical return of the people, that is still something that is

 3     going on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have D62 in order

 7     to introduce the next topic, which has been touched upon only briefly.

 8     It has to do with combat activities from the enclave out, immediately

 9     preceding the events discussed here, which resulted in the signing of the

10     agreement we saw a moment ago.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We see an Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina document.  It came from

13     the 285th Light Brigade of Zepa, Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade.  It was

14     sent to the 2nd Corps Command of the Army of BiH and to the

15     28th Division Command in Srebrenica, to Ramiz Becirovic.

16             My question is this:  Can you tell us why this document, authored

17     by the Zepa Brigade commander, was sent to the 28th Division Command in

18     Srebrenica?

19        A.   I know about it because we had precise intelligence, and we know

20     that the 285th East Bosnia Light Brigade in Zepa was part of the

21     28th Division.  All those units came into being in mid-1994, and their

22     growth continued until, in 1995, they were fully capable of executing

23     combat activities.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what was the cause for those units to

25     build up to the level of brigade?  What was the basic impetus?


Page 12841

 1        A.   Probably there was a reorganisation in the system of the

 2     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Obviously, some procedure was followed, as

 3     well as rules, which were developed during the war, itself.  What is the

 4     most interesting, though, is to note that such level units,

 5     division-level units, were created in the enclaves that were supposed to

 6     have been demilitarised back in 1993.

 7        Q.   The amounts of weapons which arrived in the so-called

 8     demilitarised protected areas, did that affect the growth of these

 9     formations to such units capable of performing activities both inside and

10     outside those enclaves?

11        A.   Yes, that is certainly correct.

12        Q.   Do you know whether there were organised activities from the

13     enclave, as well as attacks, immediately prior to the VRS deciding to

14     halt such occurrences and to intervene?

15        A.   In early July or in late June, I know for sure that there were

16     several sabotage groups from the 285th Brigade from Zepa which started

17     moving along a long axis towards VRS territory.  They went outside the

18     demilitarised zone in combat deployment, and they carried out sabotage

19     operations in a wide area, with the aim of attacking not only the

20     Main Staff, but also to cut off the road between Han Pijesak and

21     Vlasenica.  That was the size of the area that was encompassed in their

22     activities.

23        Q.   Thank you.  We can see the document.  Let me ask you this:  Did

24     their activities from the enclave increase alongside the general Muslim

25     offensive carried out against the VRS units and RS territory?


Page 12842

 1        A.   I think so.  We knew -- we had information that they were ordered

 2     to launch attacks so as to relieve the pressure of their forces who

 3     were -- which were deployed at Treskavica and around Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Let's look at the combat report, itself, of the Zepa Brigade:

 5             "Based on the order of the deputy commander of the 28th Division,

 6     Srebrenica, Major Ramiz Becirovic ..." and we have the strictly

 7     confidential number "... of the 28th of June, 1995, on measures to be

 8     taken for the execution of sabotage actions aimed at inflicting losses

 9     upon the aggressor in terms of troops and equipment and, in general, at

10     turning the Chetnik forces away from Sarajevo."

11             In the third paragraph, we see this:

12             "Form a number of sabotage groups of between a squad to reinforce

13     platoon strength and dispatch them deep into the temporarily occupied

14     territory for the purpose of inflicting on the aggressor as great losses

15     as possible, in terms of troops and equipment, and tying him down, with

16     the new forces he requires ..."

17             Down in the text, there is a reference to nine such groups that

18     were formed and sent to different areas in the RS.

19             My question is this:  Did you have any information about it, and

20     did you notify your superiors, that is to say, the superior command and

21     your own commander?

22        A.   We did have such information perhaps a fortnight before it

23     actually happened.  We had received information from the Drina Corps that

24     something was going on, in the military sense, which had to do with the

25     enclaves.  We only received firm confirmation of it once it began


Page 12843

 1     developing.  We knew of Srebrenica [as interpreted], and I know that

 2     managed to come to the outskirts of the village of Karaula [Realtime

 3     transcript read in error "Kralj"], close to Han Pijesak.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I stopped Mr. Tolimir.  He was putting the next

 7     question.  We are running out of time.  It's time for the second break of

 8     today.

 9             We adjourn, and resume at 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was informed that Mr. Stojanovic wants to raise

13     a matter.

14             Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16             By your leave, I have an administrative issue to raise.

17             During the break, I spoke with Mr. Carkic about the obligations

18     and problems we are facing in Bosnia, where we came from.  I was asked by

19     Mr. Carkic to convey his position to you.

20             He lives with his elderly mother, and he's taking care of her.

21     He also has professional obligations on Monday.  And our kind request

22     would be to conclude with his testimony today, if in any way possible,

23     although I have been advised that there is a possibility to continue

24     tomorrow.  So if we could complete it by the end of this week, that would

25     be very appreciated.


Page 12844

 1             I also have professional obligation before a court in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning the Dusko Jevtic et al. case.  I was

 3     supposed to give my closing argument -- opening statement on Monday,

 4     although I have asked already for it to be postponed.

 5             In any case, we have significant professional obligations in

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And if it's not too much trouble for everyone

 7     involved, including the Chamber and the parties, we would kindly ask you

 8     to conclude this week, if in any way possible.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

10             Mr. Gajic.

11             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe the best

12     solution in this case could be to have a session tomorrow in exchange for

13     Monday, for example.  Then on Monday we might have a day off that could

14     be used for preparation for the following witnesses, and Defence

15     preparations in general.  We hope there is an administrative possibility

16     to sit tomorrow.  As far as we know, at least one courtroom is available

17     tomorrow.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We've, unfortunately, made our plans for

20     witnesses next week based on the estimates, and so how changeable all

21     that is, I don't know.  And given that General Tolimir has several more

22     hours that he should be able to use, I don't really see a way out of it,

23     aside from plugging ahead with our schedule.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what about rescheduling to have a hearing

25     tomorrow instead of next Monday?


Page 12845

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That, we'd have to check.  As you know, we have

 2     been dealing with the next witness on that.  It may be changeable for

 3     that witness.  And that is the first I've heard of this, so we haven't --

 4     we don't have any information on it.  But we can -- we can see.  But that

 5     does create a big problem in the scheduling because it comes so out of

 6     the blue.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's true.  On the other hand, it was very

 8     clear that it would not be possible to conclude the testimony of this

 9     witness today.  This is obvious.  Mr. Tolimir has used a little bit more

10     than two hours up to now in cross-examination.  He has several hours

11     more, and you will for sure re-examine him.  It's only the question if it

12     happens on Monday or tomorrow.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             And Mr. Thayer sent out a revised schedule based on precisely

15     what you said, and of course that has Mr. Carkic's continued cross on

16     Monday and continued cross on Tuesday, given the general's estimates,

17     which I think is fair, and Mr. -- the next witness on Tuesday as well.

18     Hopefully, we'll -- we'd get him in there.  And that's -- we'll check

19     with Mr. Thayer, see how changeable that might be.  And if you're open

20     for Friday, that's, of course, the other big question.  We will make

21     ourselves open for Friday.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We just checked among the Judges.  We will not be

24     able to sit tomorrow.  We will not be able to sit tomorrow.  If it's

25     possible to conclude cross-examination and re-examination in 35 minutes,


Page 12846

 1     that would be fine, but I don't think this is achievable.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you are putting a question to me

 5     in order to satisfy Mr. Carkic and his counsel, I suggest we conclude

 6     today with everything I have.  I didn't start examining right off from

 7     the start today because it was still the Prosecutor's turn, but I'm more

 8     than willing to cut things short.  If in any way possible, we want to

 9     have an extended session to conclude with everything.  However, I don't

10     want any fingers pointed at us, because the Prosecutor envisaged

11     redirect, in any case, on Monday.  We're trying to be as flexible as

12     possible.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This could be another possibility, another

14     option:  To have an extended sitting today to enable you to use as much

15     time as possible during your cross-examination.

16             In the meantime, the Registry could check if there is a courtroom

17     available for an extended sitting.  But not to waste more Court time, you

18     should continue your cross-examination, and we will decide at the end of

19     this session, in more than half an hour, how to proceed.

20             Please continue.

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will be brief.

23             Page 66, lines 16 and 17 of the transcript, I believe the witness

24     mentioned Visnjica and another location, rather than Srebrenica and

25     Kralj.


Page 12847

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Page 66, lines 16 and 17.  We see here the answer

 2     was about information: You received information a fortnight before it

 3     actually happened. "We received information from the Drina Corps that

 4     something happened."

 5             And then the following sentence is recorded:

 6             "We knew of Srebrenica, and I know that managed to come to the

 7     outskirts of the village of Kralj, close to Han Pijesak."

 8             Are you referring to this part of the transcript, Mr. Gajic?

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, Precisely.  The

10     last sentence.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what was wrong with it?

12             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It should read:  "We knew about

13     Visnjica."

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I will check it with the witness.

15             Sir, do you recall having said something to that effect, and

16     which municipalities or villages did you mention?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said that a few

18     days before it happened we had some information from the Drina Corps that

19     from the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica, something was to be expected.

20     General Tolimir asked me what was it that we found out, and I told him

21     that we had some information, following the events, about the destroyed

22     village of Visnjica and an attempted attack on the village of Karaula,

23     and not Kralj.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please look at the transcript now.

25             We see "Visnjica" and "Karaula"; is that the right spelling of


Page 12848

 1     this -- the name of this village?

 2             Thank you very much.  I think we have it now clear on the record.

 3             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             Could we please have D62 again.  We had it at the end of the last

 6     session.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is still on the screen.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I had a different image

 9     a moment ago.

10             We can see it on the screen, and we see that nine groups were

11     formed in order to engage different facilities, such as Han Kranj,

12     Rijeka, et cetera.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Just before the nine groups, it says:

15             "Form a number of sabotage groups of between a squad to reinforce

16     platoon strength and dispatch them deep into the temporarily occupied

17     territory for the purpose of inflicting on the aggressor as great losses

18     as possible, in terms of troops and equipment, and tying him down, with

19     the new forces he requires, on a line over 20 kilometres wide."

20             In item 9, we have the village of Visnjica you mentioned a moment

21     ago.

22             My question is this:  This is Avdo Palic's document.  Was his

23     Zepa Brigade sufficiently strong to be able to form nine sabotage groups

24     in order to tie down VRS forces along a 20-kilometre front-line, causing

25     losses, in keeping with the orders of their superior command?


Page 12849

 1        A.   It's obvious from the document that that is so.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  We just saw that the ninth group was to attack the

 3     Chetnik fortification and the units in Visnjica settlement.  What do you

 4     know about that?

 5        A.   What I heard was they were supposed to destroy the village of

 6     Visnjica, not the units stationed around.  Their objective was the

 7     destruction of the village.

 8        Q.   Did you have information that the village was destroyed, once it

 9     was destroyed; and did the UNPROFOR know about that, because you had

10     contacts with them?

11        A.   I believe we were informed.  We received reports about the

12     outcome of this attack by units of the Drina Corps -- from units of the

13     Drina Corps, and I believe the operation of mopping up the terrain lasted

14     for days.

15        Q.   Look at the last paragraph, which says around 40 Chetniks were

16     killed.

17             Could we scroll up.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment, please.

19             Before you move to the next page, I would like to clarify one

20     answer of you.  You said:

21             "Their objective was the destruction of the village."

22             I read here, Group 9:

23             "The area of Visnjica.  Target the Chetnik fortification and

24     units in the Visnjica settlement."

25             How -- I would like to hear your interpretation of the words


Page 12850

 1     "fortification" and "units."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's quite clear;

 3     there's no call for special interpretation.  It's clear what "Chetnik

 4     fortification" means, as well as "units around Visnjica village."  But my

 5     information was that the only thing that was there was a village.  There

 6     was no unit inside the village itself or at the watch tower.

 7             Visnjica is part of Milici municipality, or perhaps even

 8     Srebrenica municipality - I'm not sure - but everybody talked about the

 9     burning of Visnjica.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was there a Serb fortification?  You said there

11     were no units, Serb units, in the village.  Was there a kind of

12     fortification?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the deployment of

14     forces in that area, and I can't say anything with any certainty.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             Mr. Tolimir, now please continue with the next page in English.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Now you see the last paragraph.  It says forty Chetniks were

19     killed, a considerable amount of weapon and ammunition had been seized,

20     even one soldier was captured, by the name of Velimir Mrdjan, from

21     Glamoc, and that he is in Zepa receiving treatment, which means he was

22     also wounded.

23             Could you tell us now:  Were these such forceful activities that

24     a unit from inside the protected area was engaged and the attack reached

25     the Main Staff, because this man was part of the Main Staff?


Page 12851

 1        A.   I know that dozens of men were involved.  Mrdjan was captured and

 2     wounded.  I know there were deaths.  I don't know the exact number, but

 3     quite a number of them.

 4        Q.   I'll show a document now, showing you the number.

 5             But while we're looking, let's look at document D52, showing that

 6     it was a large number of men killed.

 7             D52, like the previous document, it's from the Army of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina, and it's their own report, their own information.  So it's

 9     not originating from the VRS.  There's no fabrication.

10             Let's see the first bullet point:

11             "Sixty Chetniks were liquidated, and according to unverified

12     information, the aggressor has suffered even greater losses and had many

13     wounded."

14             Then the following paragraph says:

15             "In the populated area of Visnjica, a large amount of ammunition

16     was found, but because the men were exhausted, we did not manage to seize

17     more of it.  So it was destroyed along with all the features and

18     buildings that the aggressor could possibly use for military purposes."

19             Does this mean that the village was torched?

20        A.   I don't know.  I know that some men were killed, whether 30, 40,

21     or 60.  I know that others were wounded.  I know that additional forces

22     of the VRS and the MUP had to be engaged to search the terrain and to

23     bring back this territory into the demilitarised zone.  And as far as

24     Visnjica is concerned, it was outside the area of my brigade.  But I

25     heard the village was destroyed.  I heard nothing about ammunition or


Page 12852

 1     military installations.  I understood, from what people were saying, that

 2     these were civilian buildings, residential houses in the village.

 3        Q.   Please look at the document before you, and look at the date,

 4     "8 July, 1995."  Tell the Trial Chamber whether that was on the eve of

 5     the critical events and before the attack of the VRS on this enclave from

 6     which these attacks originated.

 7        A.   Looking at the date, I can see it was before the Stupcanica

 8     operation.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see D145, relating to

10     the period one month before the events in Zepa and Srebrenica,

11     24 June 1995.

12        Q.   It speaks about the activities of the enemy:

13             "We hereby inform you of the following reports concerning the

14     intentions of the enemy."

15             It's addressed to the commander of the

16     67th Communications Regiment:

17             "We hereby submit the following information on the enemy's

18     intentions:"

19             I quote:

20             "At 0200 hours on 23rd June this year, a unit of approximately

21     300 soldiers headed out from Srebrenica, led by Ibrahim Mandzic,

22     commander of the 280th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade; Vejiz Sabic,

23     commander of the 284th Brigade; and his deputy, Semso Salihovic; along

24     with a guide called Zoran Cardakovic.  This unit's task was to attract

25     the VRS forces in order to secure safe passage for Naser Oric."


Page 12853

 1             And third down, it says:

 2             "According to our information, the return of Naser Oric is

 3     connected with plans to commence combat operations from the Srebrenica

 4     enclave, which, supposedly, is conditioned by the possible taking of the

 5     Vis elevation in the Serbian municipality of Kalesija by the Muslim

 6     forces ..."

 7             And then it says:

 8             "Following this, it is supposed that combat would begin from the

 9     direction of Kladanj towards the VRS defence lines in the zone of

10     responsibility of the Vlasenica Brigade, when the units from Srebrenica

11     would insert themselves towards Konjevic Polje via the sector of

12     Buljim and Milici."

13             And then turn the page and look at the last --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the accused please wait until we turn the

15     page.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   It says:

18             "The 65th Motorised Protection Regiment will ensure the necessary

19     co-operatio with MUP at the Han Pijesak Garrison."

20             Signed:  "Major General Zdravko Tolimir."

21             Was this the attack you described, and whether these people

22     mentioned here were from the Zepa Brigade or the Srebrenica Brigade?

23        A.   I believe I said a moment ago when I said we had certain advance

24     reports before these attacks at Visnjica and in the direction of

25     Suva Rijeka.  It is precisely reflected in this document.  But we didn't


Page 12854

 1     receive it directly from you; we received it, of course, from the command

 2     of the Drina Corps.  In any case, we had occasion to see it.

 3        Q.   Do you know whether the 65th and the 66th --

 4     65th Protection Regiment and the 67th Communication Regiment were in

 5     that --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch this question.

 7     Would the accused slow down.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The interpreters didn't get everything.  You

 9     were -- should repeat your question, please, and a little bit slower,

10     please.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did Muslim forces out of the so-called demilitarised zones, Zepa

13     and Srebrenica, attack the location where the Main Staff of the VRS was

14     based?

15        A.   From the reports and documents of the Zepa Brigade, the base and

16     the Main Staff was in the epicenter of these events.  When they attacked

17     with their sabotage groups, we can see that the area of the Main Staff

18     was in the centre of their activity.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see D53.  And we have no

20     time to introduce any further documents.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, may I take this opportunity to make

22     the following proposal about the further part of the hearing.

23             It could be possible that we have an extended sitting today.  If

24     we continue until 2.00, then we have half an hour, then a break of half

25     an hour, and a final session from 2.30 to 4.00 in the afternoon.  I would


Page 12855

 1     like to put that to all participants here, and you may check it while we

 2     are continuing with the questioning.

 3             Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I can be here for that.  And

 5     Mr. Thayer informs me we can move our witness on to Monday that was

 6     scheduled for Tuesday.  It may create a gap in the week.  We're trying to

 7     fill that with someone else we put off.  But we can manage it, though.

 8             This is a -- what's come up here was very predictable, and this

 9     is quite a bit of movement for something that I'm not sure is worth it.

10     This is an important witness.  And to rush it like this for this reason,

11     I'm -- I mean, we'll do it, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We're only proposing this scheduling because the

13     Defence indicated they wanted to stop as soon as possible, and this is

14     quite in contradiction to their own time estimate.  And, therefore, I

15     wanted to find a way to please both the Defence and the witness and his

16     counsel.

17             The other possibility is still that at a later stage the witness

18     has to come back for continuation of the cross-examination.  But I leave

19     it to the Defence.  You are not under time pressure, as you know.  You

20     should decide for yourself, Mr. Tolimir, if you want to have an extended

21     sitting today or if the witness should be called again for a continuation

22     of your cross-examination, re-examination, and possible questions by the

23     Judges.  You should decide.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             We will finish today, in the regular hours; at least the


Page 12856

 1     questions which do not require private session.  In the segment between

 2     2.00 and 4.00, we would deal with the issues that require private session

 3     and also leave enough time for a redirect in order to free this witness

 4     to accommodate his prior commitments.  I don't think there's any need for

 5     re-calling this witness, because if any issues remain outstanding with

 6     him, I will deal with them with other witnesses.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, Mr. McCloskey raised some concern,

 8     and I share this concern.  There is no problem to re-call the witness.

 9     If you said you need the time, you should use the time for

10     cross-examination.  You are not under pressure.

11             Now you said you want to finish in the regular time.  That would

12     mean in 10 minutes.  This is not possible, and I would not suggest it to

13     you.

14             "We will finish today in the regular hours," you said.  I took it

15     that you wanted to finish in around 15 minutes.  Or including the

16     additional time this afternoon?  I would like to ask you that.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I meant that in the regular

18     hours I can finish with the open session part.  And then in the extension

19     that you announced, we could have a private session in which I would deal

20     with the rest of my examination and Mr. McCloskey could do his redirect.

21     I would not have a problem that way.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  It's your decision, and we would proceed

23     accordingly.

24             Please continue.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]


Page 12857

 1        Q.   Mr. Carkic, please give me brief answers, or yes-or-no answers,

 2     as you deem fit.

 3             Here you see a document dated 17 June 1995, a document from the

 4     Army General Staff, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's an order

 5     written by the chief of staff of the 2nd Corps,

 6     Brigadier Sulejman Budakovic, and he sent it to the 28th Division of the

 7     Land Forces.  It says:

 8             "Pursuant to verbal orders from the commander of the

 9     General Staff of the BH Army, Rasim Delic, and following the great

10     success achieved by units of the BH Army in the broader area around

11     Sarajevo and Gorazde, as well as on the basis of intelligence that the

12     aggressor forces," that's how they call us, the VRS, "Command of the

13     Protection Regiment in Han Pijesak is holding part of its units in

14     reserve to intervene in the event of an attack by our forces from Zepa."

15             And the order is:

16             "Execute all preparations; to execute offensive combat

17     operations; to liberate the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Stretch out

18     the aggressor forces and inflict maximum losses on them."

19             In this order, can we see that they are planning a broader

20     operation, where he orders the liberation of Bosnian territory, including

21     the protected areas Srebrenica and Gorazde, the area where you were

22     engaged?

23        A.   We had reports of these plans.  We had advance notice, perhaps

24     even six months in advance.  So we were not surprised by this order.  It

25     fits in with the plans of the newly-formed units of the BH Army.


Page 12858

 1        Q.   I'm wrapping up this set of questions, and I'll now move to

 2     another topic you are familiar with, namely, the convoys.

 3             We'll now look at 1D454.

 4             I'm saying you're familiar with the subject because you were

 5     appointed by your command to liaison with the UNPROFOR, and the units of

 6     your brigade monitored the check-points through which supplies were

 7     transported to the enclaves.

 8             This was written on the 27th of February, 1995, by Mr. Muratovic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in so we can see the

10     signature.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   "Minister, Dr. Hasan Muratovic."

13             I'll read what he says.  I'm reading this bit, where it says:

14             "To President of the municipality of Zepa.

15             "Dear sir, we have received the UNHCR report on humanitarian aid

16     deliveries to Zepa for the period 1 December 1994 to 15 February 1995.

17     The report shows that 85 per cent of the aid was successfully delivered,

18     on average, which is satisfactory.  This is the breakdown of the items

19     delivered:"

20             And then follows an itemised list, with amounts indicated in

21     tonnes.

22             The last paragraph reads:

23             "From the above, one can conclude that the UNHCR is supplying

24     Zepa relatively well, and we continuously monitor this and maintain

25     permanent contact with them."


Page 12859

 1             Signed:  "Dr. Hasan Muratovic, Minister."

 2             Did you have the same reports, that Zepa is supplied regularly

 3     and well with the necessary amounts of food, and even greater than

 4     necessary amounts of food, enough to even sell?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D454 shall be

 9     assigned Exhibit D212.  Thank you.

10                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your microphone.  Sometimes we can

12     hear your conversation with your assistant.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour.

14             Could we have 1D703, and it is a document my Legal Assistant

15     pointed out to me.  Thank you.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Have a look at the document.  I will read the title only.  It is

18     a list of humanitarian aid delivered to the Zepa enclave in 1994 by the

19     UNHCR, ICRC, and other organisations.  We can see the breakdown

20     per month.  Perhaps you can offer your interpretation of the quantities

21     shown, and, if possible, corroborate that with the information you had at

22     the time.

23        A.   General, we did analyse the humanitarian and other assistance to

24     the enclaves of Zepa and Gorazde.  From time to time, we informed the

25     Drina Corps of our information.  I believe the information was well


Page 12860

 1     sorted out, and the only thing I can tell you now was that it concerned

 2     enormous quantities of food and other material which had nothing to do

 3     with food, including medication, equipment, blankets, footwear, seeds,

 4     which, of course, are related to food, as well as other material for

 5     daily use.  In any case, there was a lot of it.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  This breakdown was drafted by Captain Novakovic, as

 7     we can see at the bottom of the document.  Can you tell us who he is?

 8     Did you know him?  Were you in contact with him regarding the supply of

 9     the enclaves?

10        A.   General, sir, I cannot recall Mr. Slavko Novakovic.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Drina Corps have a person who was constantly

12     in touch with the units whose areas of responsibility were to be

13     traversed by humanitarian convoys?

14        A.   I think they had a liaison officer.

15        Q.   Was it perhaps this Slavko Novakovic, the captain, who was in

16     charge of it in the Drina Corps?

17        A.   General, sir, I cannot recall the person's name, but I know for

18     sure that the Drina Corps did have an UNPROFOR liaison officer.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document,

21     Your Honours, which is 1D703.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as an exhibit.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D703 shall be

24     assigned Exhibit D213.  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have 05284 in


Page 12861

 1     e-court.  It is from the OTP's 65 ter list.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, this is Exhibit D209.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We can see the supply in 1995, immediately prior to the fall of

 7     Srebrenica and Zepa in March and April.  We see the quantities expressed

 8     in tonnes, and we can see which enclave received what quantities.  Can

 9     you comment the figures, as compared to the number of the population, and

10     what you knew about the enclaves bordering on the area of responsibility

11     of the Rogatica Brigade?

12        A.   General, sir, our information was that the local leadership in

13     Zepa, including both civilian and military authorities, was presenting

14     figures that were too high, in terms of population, to these humanitarian

15     organisations.  I think for Zepa, they operated with the figure of up to

16     16.000 inhabitants at the time, or around that figure.  In our estimates,

17     there were only between seven and seven and a half thousand.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Does it mean that they provided figures twice as high

19     to the international humanitarian organisations providing supplies to

20     them, whereas their real numbers were only half of that?

21        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.  We even had indications that the UNHCR

22     was aware of the figures not being correct.  In any case, they supplied

23     them as requested.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have 1D641.  It is a


Page 12862

 1     report on the abuse of humanitarian assistance, signed by the same

 2     person, Slavko Novakovic, captain, from the Drina Corps.

 3             We can see it now.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   As you'll see later, it was drafted on the

 6     14th of February, 1993 -- 1994.  Having in mind this report on the abuses

 7     of the mandate of international organisations, which is something you

 8     addressed during the examination-in-chief and cross-examination, can you

 9     tell us what were the most common types of abuse of these humanitarian

10     convoys in order to supply military equipment and materiel?

11        A.   General, sir, if I am not mistaken, there was a case in which,

12     during a regular check of a convoy, infantry ammunition was retrieved

13     from UNHCR vehicles.  I think it was in 1995.  After the check, the

14     convoy was ordered to turn back.  I think Mr. Beara was present as well.

15     We immediately asked that an official or an officer senior to us

16     intervene.  It was also recorded, I believe.  The checks at Rogatica were

17     quite rigorous.  Much detail was requested.  And before that occasion,

18     nothing of the sort was found, at least nothing that would be as drastic

19     as this example.

20             However, as a rule, there was always a surplus of goods, or goods

21     that were not declared, or there was technical equipment, or NATO aerial

22     images, or navigation equipment, cameras, video cameras, surpluses of

23     medication, flour, fuel, et cetera.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2, please, so that the witness

25     could see who drafted the document and when.  We can see on that page


Page 12863

 1     also that there is data concerning 1994, whereas on page 1 we had

 2     information about 1993.

 3             I seek to tender this into evidence, and --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it is already an exhibit, is it not?

 5     Oh, I was mistaken.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 1D641 shall be assigned

 9     Exhibit D214.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have P2126.  It's footage

11     which concerns this specific example of the ammunition found on board

12     humanitarian convoy vehicles.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "While inspecting the convoy, in

15     about the fifth sack, I checked using a knife, I noticed there was

16     something in the flour.  When I carried out a regular inspection, I

17     discovered the ammunition.  Without a doubt, this sort of conduct

18     represents the most serious form of criminal activity and is utterly in

19     contrast with the mandate and nature of humanitarian missions.

20             "Whether or not they felt caught in the act by the ammunition

21     found in the convoy, the leader and one of the drivers reacted as

22     follows:

23             "I do not know anything about the ammunition found in the flour,

24     and I have nothing to say."

25             "I don't know where the ammunition in the truck came from.  I


Page 12864

 1     don't know what to say.  I cannot say anything, really.

 2             "Commander of the Army of Republika Srpska,

 3     Colonel General Ratko Mladic, sent protests to the UNHCR offices in

 4     Zagreb, Belgrade, and Pale and asked that competent officials there take

 5     immediate measures to avoid similar incidents in the future.

 6     General Mladic also informs the UNHCR representatives about the fate of

 7     the convoy that was stopped and its personnel.  General Mladic's

 8     statement said that the goods will be confiscated and appropriate legal

 9     measures taken against those responsible.

10             "What else can we say, as we watch the images from Rogatica, that

11     best testify to the human nature of international humanitarian

12     organisation?  Need we remind them that they have always been welcome and

13     safe on the Serbian side in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Need we

14     remind them that the food for the Muslim population arrives in these

15     convoys above all because of the understanding of the Serbs?  Need we

16     remind them how many times this understanding has been abused?  Should

17     they ask themselves who has the right to transport ammunition and weapons

18     along with food?"

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber would like to thank the interpreters

20     that they managed to interpret most of what, obviously, was said in this

21     video footage.  Thank you so much for that.

22             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             Could we please have 1D78 in e-court, which has to do with the

25     same humanitarian convoy we saw on the footage.  D78, which was marked


Page 12865

 1     for identification.  I don't know whether it was admitted or not.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   In item 3, which is the fourth paragraph of the telegram, it

 4     reads:

 5             "The Ukrainian convoy," we have the number, "comprising three

 6     vehicles from Sarajevo to Zepa, passed through the check-point in

 7     Rogatica.  A UNHCR convoy from Karakaj to Zepa, which arrived at the

 8     check-point yesterday, is still in Rogatica, undergoing a detailed

 9     search, since ammunition and for infantry weapons was found yesterday."

10             Does the information in the document of the 8th of June, 1995,

11     issued by the command of your brigade, sent to the Drina Corps, does it

12     have to do with the convoy and the ammunition found in that convoy which

13     moved or attempted to go through your territory?

14        A.   General, sir, I suppose it has to do with that convoy.  I wasn't

15     following the report-exchange process between the commanders.  I think

16     the brigade commander did, indeed, sign this regular combat report,

17     though, and I think this part of it has to do with the convoy in

18     question.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Don't start too early.

20             I would like to know who signed this document.  I would like to

21     ask the Usher to scroll it down.  And perhaps the Registrar could provide

22     us with information why this was MFI'd.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

25             Mr. Gajic.


Page 12866

 1             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this document was used

 2     with the Witness Cornelis Nicolai.  Since the general could not provide

 3     any precise information about the events in question or about the

 4     document itself, the document was only MFI'd.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             I seek to tender D78, if possible.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be now received as an exhibit, D78.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Could we have 1D640 next.  It is another document of the

11     Rogatica Brigade Command, drafted by the intelligence/security organ on

12     the 8th of May, 1994.  Mr. Carkic was there at the time. [Microphone not

13     activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can see the document I

16     announced.  It was sent to the VRS Main Staff and the Drina Corps

17     Command.  It is a report about an incident at the Rogatica check-point.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You provide information in terms of the number of persons and

20     vehicles, and then on the next page, page 2, you discuss the incident

21     itself.  In order to be brief, we'll look at the third paragraph.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please just see the rest

23     of the page, the bullet points.  Could you go down, please.  Yes, let's

24     look at the paragraph just below the two names, where it says

25     "Major Hinan Pol" and "Sergeant Rossler Murej":


Page 12867

 1             "Given that they became more and more insolent and that they kept

 2     protesting the checks of their vehicles and equipment, as well as picking

 3     up their weapons, I was forced to personally intervene and rely on my

 4     maximum self-control to physically persuade them to step away from the

 5     vehicle so that we could carry on.  The person in charge of the convoy, a

 6     French lieutenant, Pierre [phoen], was quite fair.  However, he tried to

 7     influence our decision to check the vehicles and, on a number of

 8     occasions, hindered the exercise.  He requested that the military

 9     observers from Gorazde be present.  It was explained to him that as the

10     person in charge of the convoy, he made a number of mistakes and that he

11     shouldn't make another one.  Protecting the Canadians who committed the

12     criminal offence, our French interpreter, who is a military policeman" --

13             I can't read the rest:

14             "I guess he heard the leader of the convoy whisper to the

15     Canadians.  He literally said, You messed it up thoroughly."

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you tell us what this is all about?  What is the report

18     saying?  Briefly, please, so as not to waste too much time?

19        A.   General, sir, I remember this event.  And it wasn't the first

20     time; it was just one in a line of events.  I think, in this case, they

21     failed to declare some cargo.  And some Canadians appeared who were not

22     supposed to be a part of the convoy, and they had some completely

23     different goods from a humanitarian organisation of sorts.  This is where

24     the problem lies.  The problem was with declaring those goods, and we

25     couldn't allow it to enter Gorazde.  I believe they wanted to go there.


Page 12868

 1     They tried to resist, and that's the gist of it.  They always had this

 2     position in which they protested, and sometimes they even drew out their

 3     weapons.  Some of them were quite arrogant at times, some people from

 4     UNPROFOR.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you.

 6             We have now two hours, five minutes.  We must have the third

 7     break.

 8             Mr. McCloskey, you wanted to say something?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just before the document disappeared, could we

10     see who did the document, so that had some more meaning after all that

11     testimony?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, but I'm sure, after the break, Mr. Tolimir

13     will use this further.  I see a "Captain Zoran Carkic."

14             Thank you.  We have our third break.

15             After the break, Judge Nyambe is not able to sit with us.  The

16     remaining Judges decided to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

17             We hoped to be able to conclude the testimony of this witness

18     today for the benefit of everybody in the courtroom, but I would like to

19     invite the Defence and the Prosecution to discuss how you will share this

20     remaining time with this witness.

21             We adjourn, and resume at 2.35.

22                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 2.06 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 2.37 p.m.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.


Page 12869

 1             We still have the same document on the screen that we used before

 2     the break.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did you write this document and sign it?

 5             Perhaps we can go back to the first page again.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may this be

 8     admitted.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

10     translation.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D640 shall be

12     assigned Exhibit D215, marked for identification, pending translation.

13     Thank you.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Carkic, during the examination-in-chief, at page 45, line 8,

16     you were looking at a map of Borike.  There was also a place marked "IKM"

17     there, forward command post in the village of Borike.  Was it really a

18     forward command post or merely a place where the unit was?

19        A.   It was a command post of the battalion.

20        Q.   Is Sjeversko en route to Boksanica or is it on another road?

21        A.   From the regional road, one needs to turn to the right, towards

22     Mount Boksanica, and then on to Zepa.

23        Q.   Is it on the road between Villa Boksanica and the pass at

24     Boksanica, where the negotiations took place?

25        A.   No, it's not along that route.  But you can get there from Borike


Page 12870

 1     if you turn a side road, eventually reaching Sjeversko.

 2        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did any Main Staff unit have its command post in Sjeversko?

 6        A.   If you mean during the period of time relevant to these

 7     proceedings, I don't think there was any such unit at Sjeversko.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Danko Gojkovic, the encryption person of the

 9     Rogatica Brigade, was he in charge of encoding all telegrams leaving the

10     area of the Rogatica Brigade?

11        A.   General, sir, I cannot confirm that.  I think he was one of those

12     in charge of encryption and that he typed out a number of documents.

13     However, I do think other people were engaged in similar tasks as well.

14        Q.   Were only the codes of the Rogatica Brigade used in the documents

15     presented by the OTP and signed by those in charge of encryption in the

16     Rogatica Brigade?  In other words, were those the only codes used?

17        A.   I think so.  I think we used the codes of the Rogatica Brigade.

18     As for any documents being sent by courier, that is not something I can

19     confirm.  I do suppose, however, that some documents left by other means.

20        Q.   I'm asking about written documents.  Concerning all the documents

21     that had to do with the Zepa operation, did it -- did they all go through

22     the Department for Encryption of the brigade using the same code?

23        A.   I think most of them did.

24        Q.   The Prosecutor asked you whether you had any wire communication.

25     Were you shown the schematic of the Communications Department?


Page 12871

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you see whether there was any wire communication with

 3     Rogatica and the commander of the brigade there, or was the only such

 4     communication between the forward command post and the

 5     Communications Centre?

 6        A.   Well, I have to say, in answer to that question, that I wasn't

 7     familiar enough with that type of communication.  In any case, I did say

 8     that the schematic might be, conditionally speaking, in accordance with

 9     the principles along which the communications system was organised in the

10     Rogatica Brigade.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 07305.

12     That is the schematic.

13             We have it.  Could we please have the graphic part of the

14     communications system of the light infantry brigade.  That is page 2, I

15     believe.  Let's have a look at it.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Did the Rogatica Brigade only have radio-relay communication with

18     the Drina Corps and the Main Staff, if you know?

19        A.   General, sir, it certainly did have radio-relay communication

20     means.

21        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your question was not recorded.  The

24     microphone was switched off.

25             Mr. McCloskey.


Page 12872

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 2             There is a schematic that the general is, I think, getting to

 3     that was reference to what the witness has been -- seen, but he -- okay,

 4     we're getting there.  So that -- because I know the witness is looking

 5     for that.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, your question again, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade have

13     only radio-relay communication with the Drina Corps and the Main Staff,

14     as well as with the commands of its battalions?  Thank you.

15        A.   The brigade command, as far as I know, had a radio-relay

16     communication with it.  I don't know how it functioned.  I'm not familiar

17     with the work of the signals personnel.  I know that it did have an

18     induction communication with certain units.  On the front-lines there was

19     an induction telephone line with the Communication Centre -- or, rather,

20     among the Communications Centre there was a wire communication, as far as

21     I know.

22             And as far as I can remember, there was another schematic of the

23     communications.  This is not the only one.

24        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.


Page 12873

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you see, in this schematic, the command post of the

 3     battalions?  It says the 2nd Battalion, the 3rd Battalion, the

 4     1st Battalion?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you see that there is a radio-relay communication going to

 7     them or just a wire communication?

 8        A.   I believe that it was a wire communication between the battalion

 9     commands and the units.

10        Q.   I'm asking you what you see in the schematic.  Do you see the

11     radio-relay communications or the wire communications?  What is it that

12     you see?

13        A.   I believe that these are markings for the radio-relay

14     communication.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we please -- just a moment.

16             Can we please move the B/C/S version to the right, and I would

17     like to draw the witness's attention to the basic line.

18             Would you please read that for yourself and provide us with your

19     knowledge.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The schematic of the radio-relay

21     communications of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I know the general's hurrying, but he's

24     referred to a document that I showed the witness, I believe, in proofing.

25     And if he's going to ask him questions about that, he should have that


Page 12874

 1     document, which I'm sure is very close to this one somewhere.  It's

 2     page 7, which is the one he referred to, and it may make more sense, in

 3     relation to the questions he's asking.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would that be more helpful for your purpose,

 5     Mr. Tolimir?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

 7     you, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you see what it says under the schematic, the bottom sentence?

10        A.   [Previous translation continues]... [No interpretation]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the accused be asked to

12     make breaks before -- between answers and questions or questions and

13     answers.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Everybody understands that you are now hurrying,

15     but this is not a good communication.  You shouldn't -- avoid to overlap.

16     It is absolutely necessary to have a pause between question and answer.

17             Please carry on.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Carkic, look at the schematic.  You can see that wire

21     communications are represented by code or lines.  Would you say that

22     those lines from the battalion commands to the positions on the

23     front-line, is that it?

24        A.   Yes, that should have been the case.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that -- I apologise to the


Page 12875

 1     interpreters.

 2             Does that mean that only wire communications led from the

 3     battalion commands to the positions, whereas radio-relay communications

 4     were those that served the other communications access?

 5        A.   Wire communications were used only for the shortest routes, the

 6     induction routes, whereas radio-relay communications were put in place

 7     between the battalion commands, the brigade commands, the

 8     Borike Forward Command Post, and the Drina Corps.  In other words, there

 9     were no radio-relay communications between the battalions and their

10     units.  There were radio sets, mobile radio sets, but there were no radio

11     communications between the battalions and companies or, rather, units on

12     the positions.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,

15     please.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 7305 shall be

18     assigned Exhibit D216.  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Carkic, during the examination-in-chief, you were shown a

22     video-clip depicting General Mladic entering buses and talking to those

23     who were seated on the buses, and they were the inhabitants of Zepa who

24     were being evacuated.  And did you hear him say at one point, Do not come

25     back, there is a front-line in front of you?


Page 12876

 1        A.   Yes, I did hear that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether General Mladic singled out

 3     any of the able-bodied men?  Did he tell them, There are able-bodied men

 4     among you?  Thank you.

 5        A.   You can hear it in the clip, that he said, There are able-bodied

 6     men among you.  But I did not see him singling out anybody on that

 7     occasion.

 8        Q.   Do you know that General Mladic issued an order for the

 9     evacuation, in keeping with the agreement, had to be carried out without

10     any incidents and that nobody had to set any conditions, save for the

11     conditions that were set out by the agreement?  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I stopped you.

13             Now your answer, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that from you, not once, I

15     heard it on several occasions from you, that the evacuation had to be

16     carried out in an absolutely safe manner, without any extraordinary

17     situations.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that because of that, during the

20     evacuation nobody was singled out, no able-bodied were separated from the

21     women and the children; everybody was evacuated by buses, and nobody

22     remained in Zepa, save for the soldiers who had been in the Zepa mountain

23     range?

24        A.   I know that.  I know that, but we will probably come to that part

25     which concerns the topic that was discussed at the private session.


Page 12877

 1        Q.   Yes, that's why I'm hurrying.  I want us to get to that part as

 2     soon as possible.

 3        A.   However, what I know and what I would like to add is what I saw,

 4     and that was that there was no separation at all.  I was not aware of any

 5     separation taking place at that time.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you again said, "That's why I'm

10     hurrying."  If you need more time, you could request it and the witness

11     will be called back.  There's no need for hurrying.  If you have several

12     more questions, it will be your time.

13             Please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D722 is the next document I would

17     like to call up, page 51, lines 13 and 14.  Thank you.  This is page 34

18     in English and 51 in Serbian, in e-court.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I have to tell you that this is your statement that you provided

21     on the 22nd of February, 2011, in Rogatica, in the police station of

22     Rogatica.  Thank you.

23             Now we can see it, lines 13 and 14, where you say, in line 13:

24             "There were some facilities in this same zone which were

25     destroyed by NATO.  I don't see the photo here, and 10 soldiers were


Page 12878

 1     killed."

 2             Thank you.  What did you mean when you said that?  The

 3     Trial Chamber would like to know that.  The sentence was taken out of the

 4     context, or, rather, it ties with what was said earlier and what will be

 5     said later, but we don't have the time to go through the entire contents

 6     of the documents.

 7        A.   In a nutshell, I was talking about two photos made from AWACS

 8     with dates that I could not provide any comment on, one of those aerial

 9     photos depicting the centre of Zepa, and all the facilities were intact,

10     none of them were destroyed.  However, the same sector, the same segment,

11     was depicted in the second aerial photo on a date that I cannot comment

12     upon, and in that second photo I couldn't see any of those facilities.

13     They were simply not there.

14             My comment was that -- or, rather, the question was what I could

15     say about that operation.  That was what the investigator asked me.  He

16     asked me what I could say about that operation, and my answer was that

17     there hadn't been any operation and that I didn't hear anything of any

18     such operation.  And then I was told that that had been done in a planned

19     manner, something to that effect.  I couldn't confirm that because I

20     really had never heard anybody ordering the torching or destruction of

21     any facilities in Zepa, including the mosque that we are talking about.

22             I know that one of the witnesses allegedly commented upon all

23     that, and he said that he had seen some soldiers who had planted mines

24     around the mosque, but I can't speak on his behalf because I, myself,

25     never saw that, I was never informed about that, I don't know what


Page 12879

 1     soldiers those may have been.  And then I was told that they were members

 2     of our brigade.  I said that I'm not sure what could be the basis for

 3     somebody to claim that those were members of our brigade, because there

 4     were members of other units there as well.

 5             And, finally, when I refused to even think that that was done

 6     according to a plan, because I know that we had never received any such

 7     order during the war, and I could not accept that this -- that was done

 8     systematically, that that was a systematic destruction of any of the

 9     facilities, then I commented, and I said that in the Zepa zone there were

10     other destroyed facilities and that one of them was the facility called

11     Zlovrh that was hit by one, two, or three NATO bombs.  And on that

12     occasion, 10 of our soldiers were killed.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D689 in

15     e-court.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   And could you tell us what you know about the killing of those

18     soldiers?  What do you know about that?  Thank you.

19             1D689 is the document I've called up.  This is a document issued

20     by the Command of the 1st Drina Light Assault Brigade, dated the

21     13th of August, 1995.  It was sent to the Drina Corps.  And the title is

22     "Regular Combat Report."  It says here:

23             "This morning, around 0230 hours, the NATO Air Force shelled a

24     facility which had previously housed a communications centre in Zlovrh

25     facility.  The facility had been torched by Ustasha, and over the past 10


Page 12880

 1     or so days it was used for the accommodation of our unit, which scoured

 2     and controlled the territory with a view to detecting and removing the

 3     remaining enemy elements."

 4             Thank you.

 5             Can you tell us whether in August 1995, the facility in Zlovrh

 6     was used as a communications centre, or did it play the role as it is

 7     described in this combat report?  Did it only billet soldiers?

 8        A.   It was only used -- used to accommodate soldiers, i.e., units

 9     that had certain tasks in the Zepa zone, because it was still an very

10     volatile period and there were some elements of armed groups still

11     present from the Zepa Brigade.  And from time to time there were

12     exchanges of fire between our members and the remains of the Zepa Brigade

13     who -- and those exchanges were not negligible.

14        Q.   Could you please -- [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I've switched the microphone off because I wanted

17     that the accused waits for the end of the translation.

18             Please continue now.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Microphone.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber, could you explain for the

24     benefit of the Trial Chamber, what were the consequences of the shelling

25     of the facility at Zlovrh?


Page 12881

 1        A.   The consequences are visible in the report that was sent as a

 2     regular combat report by the commander of that unit.  Ten members of the

 3     unit were killed, those who used that facility for their accommodation in

 4     that zone.  A few of them were wounded.  I suffered contusions.  Some of

 5     them still suffer the consequences of that incident.  The facility was

 6     totally destroyed.  The survivors had to be pulled out from the rubble.

 7     That is that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this be admitted

10     into evidence.

11             And I would like to ask for the previous document, which was the

12     witness's statement, to be called back.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to see the signature of the document

14     we have just had on the screen.

15             Thank you.  Signed by Rajko Kusic.  Thank you very much.

16             It will be marked for identification, pending translation.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 1D689 shall be

18     assigned Exhibit D217, marked for identification, pending translation.

19     Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Before we go into private session, let's look at 1D722, 1D722,

22     which is the witness's statement, and can we please look at page 38,

23     lines 10 through 32.  Thank you.  In English, it is page 26.  The lines

24     are from 10 to 32.

25             I'm going to read just one part of it, and then I will have


Page 12882

 1     questions for you.  Thank you.

 2             We see line 10.  Can this be blown up, please.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And I quote what you said:

 5             "I think -- I think his driver was with him, only his driver.  It

 6     was a problem with this unit.  And this actually was not an UNPROFOR

 7     unit; this was the unit for rapid intervention, composed mostly of

 8     French Legionaires, and there was perhaps one or two Russians.  And the

 9     explanation differed.  The French were rather arrogant."

10             And then I move to the following line, where the sentence starts

11     with the following words:

12             "They took over the UNPROFOR check-point at Boksanica.  They

13     insisted on entering Zepa, allegedly because they wanted to look for the

14     remaining civilians, although the evacuation had already ended.  They

15     didn't have the permission of the Main Staff to enter Zepa, since the

16     combat activities were still going on in the area, because the

17     Zepa Brigade soldiers did not want to surrender.  That's why the

18     conflicts continued from Zepa towards north and north-east."

19             Further on, it says:

20             "The Main Staff didn't allow that, and at some point even weapons

21     were drawn."

22             My question is this:  Is this what you knew at the time?  Was the

23     Rapid Intervention Unit entitled to enter in the territory where combat

24     was ongoing?  Would UNPROFOR have had the same right?

25        A.   General, sir, whether anybody approved their arrival, I don't


Page 12883

 1     know.  I'm not sure about that.  We were told that a unit was to appear,

 2     or, rather, we knew that it was a mixed unit that was coming our way, and

 3     they did not arrive under the umbrella of UNPROFOR, as it were.  At that

 4     time around Sarajevo there were already rapid intervention units, they

 5     had already been established, and that was one of them.  Their conduct

 6     was very aggressive.  I witnessed the situations when weapons were drawn,

 7     I saw that entire [indiscernible] equipment was put in positions.  There

 8     were few of us there.  At one point, I was on my own.  To the left of me

 9     on the plateau or on the Boksanica Pass, there were two of our tanks.

10     However, the crews did not even pay attention to any of that.  I didn't

11     even want to burden them with all of that.  I wanted to -- I requested

12     the presence from -- of someone from the Main Staff.

13             Colonel Beara came, and he tried to talk to the French officer.

14     He wanted to establish some sort of a normal communication.  I believe

15     that his name was Jean-Loup.  However, that person did not accept any

16     normal communication.  He insisted on entering Zepa.  He wanted to look

17     for the remaining civilians, allegedly.  There was still combat ongoing

18     down there, and that combat spilled over to Boksanica Mountain or,

19     rather, to the Zepa Plateau.

20             Let's not confuse things.  That area was called Sjemec - not

21     Sjemic, but Sjemec - on Zepa Mountain.  And that combat was going on for

22     a while after that.  The Main Staff did not want to allow anybody to

23     enter in an area as unsafe as that, especially in view of the fact that

24     that unit, as far as I know, did not even have the mandate to do that.

25     The Main Staff would have been informed if they had an official mandate


Page 12884

 1     to enter the protected area.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In order not to go back to this

 4     statement, could this statement be admitted into evidence, please, given

 5     that I have used it a number of times.

 6             Could we now see just one more document, please, P486.  Thank

 7     you.  P486 in e-court, please.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this is coming up:  The previous document,

 9     1D722, will be admitted into evidence.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the clarity of the record, I

11     just need to put that 1D689 was already MFI'd through General Smith as

12     Exhibit D187.  Therefore, D187 shall be assigned to 65 ter --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- 722.

14             THE REGISTRAR: -- 722.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, as Mr. Gajic and I discussed, upon

17     your request, I mentioned to him that I would like 30 minutes.  That

18     leaves the general 20, and he hasn't gotten to the area yet.  But -- and

19     I know you're very aware of all of this, so I won't say anything else,

20     but it's looking --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I, myself, am quite concerned about the situation

22     and the ongoing process.  I would like to take out some speed and to

23     enable Mr. Tolimir to have a sufficient conduct of his cross-examination.

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we, of course, can work with both the witness


Page 12885

 1     and Mr. Stojanovic to find a time that they can come back that is within

 2     their schedule.  I know Mr. Stojanovic well, and I know he will make

 3     every effort.  And the witness has always been co-operative.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Registrar needs to correct something on the

 7     record.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             65 ter document 1D689 was assigned Exhibit D187, marked for

10     identification, pending translation, through General Smith.

11             65 ter document 1D722 shall be assigned Exhibit D217.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means D187 is now an exhibit no longer

13     marked for identification because we have a translation; is that correct?

14     It's not correct.  Sorry, I mixed up both the documents.  Forget it, what

15     I just said.

16             Continue, please, Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             Could we see P486 in e-court, please.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While we're waiting for it to come up, let me tell you that this

21     document comes from the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry

22     Brigade.  It was drafted on the 29th of July.  I'm showing this in order

23     to show that on the 29th of July this incident with the Frenchman

24     happened.  The document was sent to the addressees, and in the first item

25     we see:


Page 12886

 1             "We had a meeting at 0800 hours with Colonel Jean-Loup, where he

 2     said the following:

 3             "He was tasked with evacuating all remaining Muslim civilians

 4     from the Zepa enclave.

 5             "While waiting for the permission of General Smith to go up in

 6     the mountains to see if there are any remaining civilians perhaps."

 7             Would you please tell us whether this pertains to that member of

 8     the Rapid Intervention Forces or not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did he say what he's quoted here as saying?

11        A.   General, sir, when Mr. Pecanac had a meeting -- discussion with

12     him, I wasn't present.  I think they came perhaps on the 28th of July,

13     because they stayed for at least two or three days up there at the

14     check-point.  And when Pecanac met with Jean-Loup, I was not present.  I

15     was present when Colonel Beara was there and prior to the arrival of

16     Colonel Beara.  However, the story was the same on both occasions, as was

17     presented to Mr. Pecanac.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we have D217 placed under seal?  That's the

20     witness's statement, and there's information in there.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, of course, it should be admitted under seal.

22             And I would like to draw your attention, Mr. Tolimir.  You were

23     reading, and I don't know if that is a translation matter,

24     page 108, line 16.  You were quoting from the document:

25             "He was tasked with evacuating all remaining Muslim civilians


Page 12887

 1     from the Zepa enclave."

 2             In the document, we see the translation:

 3             "He was tasked to evacuate all remaining Muslims from the Zepa

 4     enclave," without the word "civilians."

 5             There is a difference.  Perhaps it's a translation issue.  I

 6     don't know.

 7             Mr. Tolimir.

 8             Mr. Gajic.

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the original

10     document, it says "civilians from the Muslim enclave of Zepa."

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, could you confirm that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What should I confirm,

13     Mr. President?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the first bullet point, it says:

15             "He was tasked to evacuate all remaining Muslims ..."

16             And is there a reference to Muslim civilians or not in the B/C/S

17     version, in the Serbian text?

18             Thank you.  With the assistance of the Usher, we saw the word

19     "civilians."  Thank you.  There's no need for a confirmation.

20             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Could we have this document admitted into evidence.

23             And could we also moved into closed session so that I can finish

24     with my part of cross-examination by the agreed dead-line.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is already in evidence, P486.


Page 12888

 1             We turn into a private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3     (redacted)

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10     (redacted)

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12     (redacted)

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Page 12889

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Page 12904

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 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honour.  Thank

13     you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   Sir, would you agree with me that given the likelihood that

17     Zlovrh was going to be targeted by NATO, that it was a bad idea to have

18     soldiers billeted there that were doing a search of the terrain?

19        A.   Well, that was the matter for the command function.  It turned

20     out that it was a bad idea, but we did not have the information that

21     Zlovrh would be bombed.

22        Q.   Well, the information was certainly before General Mladic, so the

23     information should have come from the Main Staff or from the Drina Corps

24     that you should keep your men away from major targets, shouldn't it have?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.


Page 12905

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Earlier today we saw a document

 2     where it says that Zlovrh was not a communications centre, that the

 3     Muslims had torched it before their withdrawal, and that it was only used

 4     to billet troops.  I don't know what is the basis for forcing the witness

 5     to give an answer to this question.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we put the next document on the ELMO.  It

 8     specifically responses to General Tolimir's concern.  It is a bill --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY: -- from the Drina Corps in the amount of

11     US$540.000 to recover the destruction of the repeater at Zlovrh as a

12     result of NATO bombing.  I have a couple of English versions as well.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's sufficient to have it on the ELMO.

14     It will have to be translated -- oh, you have the English translation.

15     Yes, that would be helpful for the Defence and the Chamber.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the Defence -- it should have both languages

17     in it.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And Ms. Stewart can give it number 7329.

20             And we can see that this is from the Drina Corps to the army, the

21     Main Staff, and it says, "Reasons and Consequences of the Enemy

22     Activities:  Submission."  And then we can see that it goes on to review

23     the consequences of NATO aviation, and it says:

24             "Report.  Losses of manpower and assessment of material damage

25     caused by NATO aviation activities:  Ten combatant soldiers perished due


Page 12906

 1     to NATO aviation activities, one of them a fighter squad commander."

 2             That may be the gentleman that did not get warned by their

 3     security officers from the Zvornik -- from the Rogatica Brigade.

 4             "B.  The material damage to the facilities caused by NATO

 5     aviation activities is as follows:"

 6             It talks about the warehouses, the bridge, the repeater at

 7     Trover [sic] facility -- the repeater at Zlovrh facility, US$540.000, and

 8     then material damage together is an enormous --

 9        Q.   Would this repeater be a fair military target, in your view, if,

10     in fact, a $540.000 repeater was blown up by NATO?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a question for you, Witness.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm aware that we

13     are in open session at the moment, and here, this is a very heavy comment

14     addressed at me and about me.

15             If I understood Mr. Peter properly, he said that I, who knew

16     about the bombing of Zlovrh, did not inform the men who were billeted

17     there.  At least that's what I heard in the earphones.  If that is

18     correct, then I'm speechless, if the interpretation was the correct

19     interpretation of the Prosecutor's words.  If that was said, under such

20     pressure, I can no longer function.  Because if somebody accuses me, be

21     it even through a commentary, before my people, before the army that I

22     belonged to, if somebody is accusing me of not having conveyed the

23     information that Zlovrh would be bombed and I knew that it would happen,

24     and that's completely untrue, then I am asking for this to be withdrawn

25     and to be denied, because I didn't know that.  I've not seen this


Page 12907

 1     document before in my whole life.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was not the question Mr. McCloskey put to

 3     you.  He wanted to know if this would be a legitimate military target if

 4     there was installed such a repeater.  That was the question.  It doesn't

 5     have anything to do with your personal responsibility.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   And just to clarify it:  I'd asked you if you'd known, and you

 8     said you weren't sure.  And then I said that the Main Staff had received

 9     the information.  So it's on the record that you weren't sure about that.

10     And your duty to report things that you're not sure on, I don't know, and

11     so I'm not commenting any further.

12             And now my question is very simple:  Is this a military target, a

13     fair military target?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would put the question in a different way.

15             Did you know that there was such a repeater with this -- yeah,

16     that you would need this amount of money to buy a new one?  Did you know

17     that such a repeater was installed there?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that repeater used

19     to be the central repeater of the Yugoslav People's Army.  And I dare say

20     it even covered the entire area of Yugoslavia.  And that would be the

21     answer to your first question.

22             Secondly, I didn't say that I wasn't sure that the repeater

23     existed in Zlovrh or, rather, whether the former, previously-destroyed

24     repeater was a legitimate target of NATO air force.  I said that I didn't

25     have information to the effect that the repeater would be bombed.


Page 12908

 1             Thirdly, allegedly General Mladic did know that the repeater

 2     would be bombed.  We, ourselves, did not have that information.  In other

 3     words, I did not have that information ever.  I should have been only so

 4     lucky to have had it, because I could have saved the lives of ten of my

 5     comrades.  And what has now happened to me here is really unheard of.

 6             And, fourthly, I absolutely don't know how much things cost.  I

 7     never saw any documents regarding the estimates of the cost of damages on

 8     the repeater.  I was never in charge of any such thing.

 9             Please, as the Presiding Judge, could you please protect me from

10     any insinuations from any side?  Can you imagine how it is going to be

11     for me to come back to Rogatica after it was said that I knew that

12     Rogatica and Zlovrh would be bombed?  And I never knew that.  Do you know

13     what it means for me to come and face the families of my dead colleagues?

14     This is unheard of.

15             I'm sorry, I'm acting very emotionally, but --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, and there was no need for that, because

17     nobody in this courtroom made this insinuation.  It was something else.

18     You were asked if you knew that, and you denied that, and that was all,

19     in relation to your personal position.  Mr. McCloskey referred to

20     knowledge, alleged knowledge, of General Mladic.  This is something

21     totally different from you.

22             And I would like to ask Mr. McCloskey not to ask him legal

23     questions.  I think he is not the appropriate witness to decide if that

24     was a legitimate target for NATO.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Your question was better.


Page 12909

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if something is

 3     stated that concerns the witness personally, could, in the future, a

 4     reference be provided testifying to the fact whether the witness knew

 5     something or not or whether the Main Staff knew something or not?  I

 6     don't want things to be said arbitrarily.

 7             If Mr. McCloskey says that Zlovrh was a legitimate target, then

 8     he should say why.  We know that General Smith said before this

 9     Trial Chamber that the Security Council had never allowed him to bomb any

10     of the facilities in Republika Srpska.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now a statement, and we should avoid

12     discussions about legal matters among the parties in the presence of a

13     witness who should be asked about his knowledge and the facts he knows

14     about.

15             Mr. McCloskey, your next question, please.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd like to offer this document into evidence.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was given a 65 ter number just now.  It will

18     be received.  But I have only the translation of the first page; is that

19     correct?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe that is correct.  We'll -- we didn't do

21     the whole thing, and we should mark it for identification and get the

22     whole thing done.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

24     translation.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the Registry would appreciate if we


Page 12910

 1     can be provided with a hard copy of the document.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I will give you my hard copy.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 7329 shall be

 5     assigned Exhibit P2177.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Sir, you had said earlier, I have it on page 63 -- and I think

 9     you agreed with General Tolimir when he mentioned that the transfer of

10     the people from Zepa was meant to be temporary and that 300 houses had

11     been reconstructed, that people have -- some have moved back, at least

12     for weekend homes.  And you talked a bit about no organised process or

13     operation to destroy houses.

14             Can we now look at something I know you have seen before,

15     65 ter 7328, page 2.  If we could make this a full size.

16             This is something that we got from the US relatively recently.

17     We'd provided copies to the Defence when we got it.  It's an aerial image

18     of 24 August of north-east Zepa.  And on it, the United States has

19     identified, in boxes, buildings that were destroyed since 27 July 1995.

20     And this is just a portion.  I can go over the mosque area, I can go over

21     other parts of the towns, and we still -- we see this massive destruction

22     of houses.  And I can show you the photographs from July 27th that show

23     those houses intact.  I know you've seen them before, because you were

24     shown them in the interview.  So -- and the person you're referring to in

25     the testimony was a person that was from your brigade that saw the mosque


Page 12911

 1     blown up with mines and saw these houses being destroyed.

 2             So, sir, in looking at this, knowing these places were destroyed

 3     sometime after July 27th, do you really -- do you want to testify, sir,

 4     that you were aware of no operation to destroy all these houses?

 5        A.   Yes, I do wish to testify that.  And I confirm I did not know

 6     about any operation of destroying houses and mosques.  And I'm repeating

 7     this for the third time.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, let's go to page 1.  Perhaps we can put them

 9     both up so there can be a comparison, though I will have larger

10     photographs for the Court, if they wish to look.

11             It's really hard to tell.  Can we just blow up the one on the

12     left.

13        Q.   You'll agree with me, in this 27 July shot we see a lot of roofs

14     that are intact, don't we?

15        A.   I agree.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I would like to offer these aerial

17     images into evidence.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These will be received as one exhibit.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, P2178 shall be assigned to these

20     documents.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's a dispute about the number?

22             No.  Okay.

23             Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   And, Mr. Carkic, General Tolimir spent quite a bit of time


Page 12912

 1     talking about this ambush on the Serb soldiers that was -- happened in

 2     the beginning of the war, and he referred to it as a murder and a

 3     terrible thing, and the loss of life always is.  But let me briefly

 4     outline to you what a Muslim soldier and a teacher at primary school --

 5     his account, and just get your view, and this will be the last question

 6     or series of questions.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the statement is at 65 ter 7327, and page 3

 8     in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   This person is from Zepa and is giving an account of how things

10     were, and I'll just start at the relevant part:

11             "On the 6th of May, there was the first attack on the villages

12     which were close to the local community Borike.  Borike was inhabited

13     completely by Serbs, and the attack came from there.  Three Muslim

14     villages were attacked that day, Godimlje, Zivaljevici, and Stara Gora.

15     The inhabitants were expelled, and all the houses were burned down, and

16     two mosques in Godimlje and Stara Gora were completely destroyed.  The

17     inhabitants came to Zepa, and we realised that Zepa might get attacked as

18     well, so we started to organise the defence.  In that same period, the

19     Muslim villages around Rogatica were also attacked, and a lot of refugees

20     came from those villages -- came to Zepa as well.  The inhabitants of the

21     village Djile, from the municipality of Vlasenica, were attacked, and the

22     refugees came from there to Zepa also.  In the beginning of June,

23     villages in Han Pijesak municipality were also attacked."

24             Now, this is the paragraph I want to ask you about:

25             "On 4 June, there was the first attack on Zepa from Han Pijesak.


Page 12913

 1     A courier from the VRS had brought a message to the commander of the army

 2     in Zepa, asking permission for VRS army vehicles to come through Zepa to

 3     take food supplies to the position at Zlovrh.  The commander gave

 4     permission only for food, but only [sic] for one big convoy of

 5     40 vehicles, vehicles with soldiers, and with a tank leading them,

 6     arrived at a village called Brloznik, at the entrance to Zepa.  It was

 7     realised that this was to be an attack on Zepa.  The convoy passed

 8     through the village, which is situated in a narrow canyon.  Our army unit

 9     made a barricade on the road, which stopped the convoy, and then fighting

10     started.  The fighting went on all day, and when the Serb units realised

11     they could not enter Zepa, aircraft arrived.  Late in the afternoon, the

12     aircraft started bombing civilian targets in the villages around Zepa as

13     well as the centre of Zepa itself."

14             So, to your knowledge, were there several armoured vehicles and a

15     very large convoy that was going through to deliver food?

16        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, at that time, I was in Sarajevo, so all that I

17     said concerning the incident in Budicin Potok, I spoke from what I know.

18     What I know is only in general terms, and I just conveyed what I knew.

19             I heard other people say that that unit was announced.  They were

20     heading for their base at Zlovrh.  They were carrying food and equipment.

21     I don't know their combat structure and disposition.  All I know is that

22     on that occasion 40 to 45 men were killed and others were wounded or

23     taken prisoner.

24             As for the composition of that column of men and vehicles, I

25     don't know.  I don't know if there was one or two tanks or any armoured


Page 12914

 1     vehicles.  Maybe there were some, but I don't think that any aircraft

 2     were used.

 3        Q.   Well, given that your -- as you said, your testimony appears to

 4     be based on second-hand knowledge and information from the village of

 5     those that, unfortunately, lost their loved ones, I think we can leave it

 6     at that.

 7             And just to be clear, sir, I'm not saying you had knowledge of

 8     the bombing of Zlovrh.  I asked you if you did, and you said you didn't,

 9     I guess.  And you certainly were not involved in shelling the civilian

10     population in Sarajevo.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And on that, Mr. President, I have no further

12     questions.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             Could you please state who was the witness who gave the

15     statement, and when the statement was given?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I can, and I can offer that into evidence or

17     not.  His name is Ramiz Dedic.  It is a statement to the Office of the

18     Prosecutor, an interviewer named Steve Upton, and it was done on

19     27 June 1997.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Will he be called as a witness?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.  It was just the -- it was the

22     depth and the breadth and the importance that General Tolimir gave to

23     that subject that got us looking for material, and we found this, and

24     that's why I wanted to just bring out the other side of the story.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there's no need to tender it, because you


Page 12915

 1     read the relevant part into the transcript.

 2             The document we have received, D118, marked for identification,

 3     pending translation, should be under seal.  218, yes.  Oh, I misspoke.

 4     D218, MFI, that should be under seal.

 5                           Questioned by the Court:

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I'm very sorry, I have a final question.

 7             Mr. McCloskey spoke about Zepa and the conditions of people if

 8     they would come back.  You told us this morning, on page 63, line 14,

 9     that there was a returnee project initiated.  When was that initiated?

10        A.   When I spoke about that, I was referring to a project that is

11     parts of the framework agreement for peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

12     that's the Project of Repatriation.  That is an ongoing project in our

13     area.  I also said that property laws have been put in place, whereas

14     repatriation and reconstruction is something that is moving ahead with

15     difficulty, but it's going on.  Houses are being rebuilt, and I'm

16     organising these projects in the course of my duties.  And it would have

17     been preposterous for me to have destroyed these houses in order to

18     rebuild them now.  I am not aware of their destruction, or any strategy

19     or plan of destruction, or any military assignment to that effect.  I've

20     already said what I had to say about that, and I'm not going to repeat

21     it.

22             I guarantee that nobody stood behind such a so-called operation,

23     nobody ordered any such thing.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That was your final answer.

25             I would like to thank many people; first of all, the


Page 12916

 1     interpreters, the whole staff, court recorder, who were so patient with

 2     us, including the security people.  That was for the benefit of the

 3     witness.  And, therefore, I think it was an exhaustive exercise for you

 4     today; it was a very long session.  But now you are able to return to

 5     your normal activities and will be able to stay with your family.

 6             Mr. Tolimir, you wanted to say something?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry, I was --

 8     I had my hand up even earlier.  I don't want to have the last word after

 9     you, but this last statement offered by the Prosecutor for admission is

10     also hearsay because that witness says, The next day, fighting continued.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Prosecution didn't tender this document, and,

12     therefore, there's no need to discuss that any further.

13             This concludes the hearing of today and your testimony.  You are

14     now free to return to your normal activities.

15             The Chamber would like to thank you for all you were able to

16     testify about and that you came here to The Hague.  Thank you very much,

17     and I hope, with the assistance of your counsel, we managed not to reveal

18     certain parts of your testimony.  Thank you very much.

19             We have to adjourn immediately because the tapes are running out.

20     And we resume on Monday at 2.15, and hopefully in Courtroom III.

21             Thank you very much.  We adjourn.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.28 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day

25                           of April, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.