Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13549

 1                           Tuesday, 3 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon.

 6             The Chamber is again sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, in the

 7     absence of Judge Mindua, as indicated earlier.

 8             The witness should be brought in, please.

 9             Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Judge Nyambe.

11             Just on -- it was P200 -- 2200, the one where I had a different

12     translation, I am told the one in e-court was the proper translation so I

13     had the wrong one, so we're fine the way we are.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, it's P2200.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it correct.  Thank you.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Please sit down.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome back to the courtroom.  I have to remind

21     you that the affirmation to tell the truth you made at the beginning of

22     your testimony still applies.

23                           WITNESS:  PETAR SALAPURA [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey has additional questions for you.

Page 13550

 1             Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Colonel.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Do you recall helping one of our investigators, several years ago

 7     now, in giving them help in diagramming where the different offices were

 8     at Crna Rijeka?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And have you recently had a chance to look at that diagram that

11     the investigator made?

12        A.   No.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Well, let's take a quick look at

14     that.  It's 65 ter 07344.  And, Mr. President, for some reason this did

15     not get a 65 ter number.  We used it at the site visit, so it's -- I

16     don't think there's any problem, and if we could just show this to the

17     witness.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit

19     list.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to the next page, that's

21     the -- just the investigative page that talks about when this happened

22     back in 2006.  And perhaps we can blow up especially that B/C/S side.

23        Q.   And I think you said something, that this was your best

24     recollection, but you couldn't be positive.  As you look at it now, how

25     do you -- how confident you are that that's where the basic offices were?

Page 13551

 1        A.   I believe that this is -- and I must say that I'm even less

 2     certain now than I was before, but I think this is how it was.  The

 3     things there changed.  We didn't have enough space for all of us, and

 4     there was re-shuffling.  Some people went to a hotel in Pijesak, some of

 5     the people were in this building.  But I think this is roughly it.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And the Chamber has been there and seen those two long

 7     wooden buildings that were next to each other, and let me just direct

 8     your attention to the left -- the left one.  And we see that Salapura --

 9     that's your office at the top of the page?

10        A.   Yes, yes, it is.

11        Q.   All right.  And we also see, if we look at the English,

12     underneath your office it says "Intel Office."  Who was in there?

13        A.   Analysts.  And there was a clerk there, warrant officer, as well

14     as all the analysts.

15        Q.   For example --

16        A.   And I spent most of my time there.  I was not very often in my

17     office, really.

18        Q.   And you've mentioned Analyst Radoslav Jankovic.  Was he there?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, he was.

20        Q.   Mr. Mamlic?

21        A.   Yes.  Jankovic, Mamlic, Karanovic, Isakovic.

22        Q.   All right.  And when General Mladic was in Crna Rijeka, what

23     office, if any, did he work out of?

24        A.   He was using the offices -- rather, this room number 6, the

25     meeting room next to Milovanovic.

Page 13552

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would offer this exhibit into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P2201, Your Honours.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   And, Colonel, when did you first become aware that there was a

 7     VRS attack on the Srebrenica enclave?  I'm talking the one that started

 8     July 6th.

 9        A.   It was on the 12th that I learned about it, when I was in

10     Modrica.

11        Q.   And as I recall, you said you first left Banja Luka on -- is it

12     July 11th?

13        A.   No, on the 12th.

14        Q.   And where did you go on the 12th?

15        A.   Banja Luka, Modrica, Bijeljina, [indiscernible].

16        Q.   And can you tell us where Modrica is?  What corps was that in?

17        A.   1st Krajina Corps.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you to repeat.  You mentioned four

19     locations, Banja Luka, Modrica, Bijeljina, and then another one, but we

20     couldn't hear the interpreters with this word.  What was the fourth?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Beograd, Belgrade.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Could we have 65 ter 5692.  This is a

24     document that I was given last night, so it may not be on the list.  Oh,

25     it is on the list.

Page 13553

 1        Q.   And I know this was a while back, Colonel, but we see the

 2     document is dated 1 July, from the Main Staff Intelligence and

 3     Security Sector, Intelligence Administration, and it's talking about

 4     these two men getting moved over to Bijeljina.

 5             And if we can go to the next page in the English, and show the

 6     bottom of the page in the B/C/S.  Now, we see this is a teletype, so, of

 7     course, there's no signature on this version of it.

 8             Does this help refresh your recollection where you were on

 9     1 July?

10        A.   No, absolutely not.  This -- something like this, the content of

11     this document does not remind me of anything.  Why would I have written

12     something like that?  And, anyway, I didn't sign it.  I cannot see any

13     signature here.  I don't know what this is.  This is about some people I

14     don't know.  I only heard of, I think, Bratic, Radivoje.  I have no idea

15     what this is all about, secretariats in Bijeljina and Trebinje, no.  At

16     the time, I was in Banja Luka, definitely.  It is possible that it was

17     sent -- I see "SM/SM."  That's Slobodan Mamlic.  He might have drafted

18     this, based on the initials.  You can see both of them as the drafter and

19     the one who sent it, and then put my signature.  But as you can see, I

20     did not sign this document.  It should have been "for," at least.

21     Water Supply Directorate, no, I don't know about that.

22        Q.   Well, sir, we see this is a received document.  So, as you know,

23     a teletype never has a signature.  It's not like a fax.  Perhaps you

24     called up Mamlic and authorised him --

25        A.   Yes, on the original.

Page 13554

 1        Q.   Right.  So perhaps you called up Mamlic and had him -- and you

 2     authorised him to send this out, or perhaps you allowed people to send

 3     material out in your name, without knowing about it?

 4        A.   I certainly did not call Mamlic about this.  I can't remember any

 5     of these things, what were my connections with the people who were in

 6     charge of water supply.  Palma, what is this:

 7             "Please send Engineer Saric, Dragan, Bratic, Radivoje, to VP

 8     Bijeljina.  They would be engaged that for a period of 10 days at most."

 9             I don't even know what this is all about.  I can't even figure

10     out from the contents what it's all about.  I don't remember any of this.

11        Q.   Okay.  So you --

12        A.   Allegedly, it was sent to the Ministry of Defence.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this document in evidence.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask the witness one question.

15             Sir, you see on the original, on the left side of the screen, a

16     stamp.  In the second line on the stamp, you see there are two words.

17     One is crossed out and one is underlined.  Could you please tell me what

18     these words mean?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "RCV, Sent/Received."  Well, this

20     stamp was put by the encoding station, the people who were sending the

21     telegrams.  These are their markings.  As we can see, "Sent" is crossed

22     out, which means that the telegram was received on the 1st of July at

23     1755 hours.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So this is the copy which was received by the

25     addressee; is that correct?

Page 13555

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a copy that was handed over

 2     on the 1st of July at 1755 hours to the Encoding Service, and it was sent

 3     via teletype.  There is a "TLP" underlined here.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And could this kind of document bear

 5     a signature?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the original would have had a

 7     signature, but this document, this copy, I don't know where it was sent.

 8             Could you please put it back on the screen or put it back up so

 9     that I can see who the addressee is?

10             Yes, it was sent to the Ministry of Defence, Pale.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             This document will be received into evidence.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But why, I really can't tell.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  P2202, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   So why did you leave Banja Luka to go to Belgrade?

19        A.   I went to Banja Luka first for treatment.  I was ill.  But I

20     received an invitation to go to Belgrade for a meeting with a certain

21     person from whom I was expecting to receive certain information.

22        Q.   Was this a confidential source, this person that you met with?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So who actually alerted you to this?  Who called you at

25     Banja Luka?  I don't need the name, if it's the confidential informant.

Page 13556

 1     Did he just call you up, or did you hear it from one of your people, or

 2     someone else?

 3        A.   No, I received the call or invitation via the Intelligence Centre

 4     in Banja Luka.

 5        Q.   From what intelligence centre; an army, a corps?  Who?

 6        A.   No, no, it was our Main Staff's Intelligence Centre.  It had its

 7     seat there.

 8        Q.   And who called you?

 9        A.   I cannot tell you now whether it was the chief of centre or

10     somebody else.  I can't remember who was it who called me.  Actually,

11     I think somebody came to my house with a car to tell me that I'm expected

12     in Belgrade on the 12th.  The 12th, in the afternoon or evening hours.

13        Q.   Sir, did you receive a call from the Intelligence Centre or did

14     someone come by and get you?  These are important questions.

15        A.   The information reached me via the Intelligence Centre.  I can't

16     tell you now.  They didn't call me.  Somebody came to my home and

17     informed me about this.

18        Q.   All right, Colonel.  Now, you have said that you went to Belgrade

19     and received the actual time and date of the attack planned by the

20     Croatian forces in the Krajina, and we'll get to that, but this is some

21     of the most important information that could be possibly received by an

22     intelligence officer.  I'm sure you will agree.  So, please, who came by

23     and told you about this, this important information?

24        A.   I hope you don't ask me -- you're not asking me to give you the

25     name, because I don't see how that is related with this case.  He's not

Page 13557

 1     here today, anyhow, and I cannot give you the name of that person.

 2        Q.   I'm not asking the name of the confidential informant.  You said

 3     someone came by, in Banja Luka, in a car?

 4        A.   No, they didn't -- he didn't come to Banja Luka.  He came to

 5     Belgrade, and I was supposed to meet with this person in Belgrade.

 6        Q.   Let's go back to Banja Luka.  Who did you first hear from that

 7     you were to go to Banja Luka -- that you were to go to Belgrade?

 8        A.   No, I was already in Banja Luka, and people from the centre

 9     informed me that I'm supposed to go to Belgrade.  The organisation was

10     like this:  A person, who had come to Belgrade, called a number, a number

11     that was the number of the Intelligence Centre in Banja Luka, and also

12     there was a number in Han Pijesak, and they were informed at the centre

13     that at a certain hour I was supposed to come to Belgrade.  And then

14     somebody from the centre came to my home.  They knew that I was there,

15     and they told me, Colonel, you're expected in Belgrade at a certain hour.

16     We've just heard news about that.  This was not the first time that I had

17     to do this.  There were many occasions like that.

18        Q.   Try again.  Who came to your home in a car to tell you this?

19        A.   One of the operatives from the centre, but I really can't

20     remember which one of them.

21        Q.   And, roughly, what time of day did you set off from Banja Luka?

22        A.   In the morning, yes.

23        Q.   With who?

24        A.   I set off with my driver and with two other officers, reserve

25     officers, IT people.

Page 13558

 1        Q.   What's your driver's name?

 2        A.   Radan Djukic.

 3        Q.   And who were these IT people?  Why were they with you?

 4        A.   They were supposed to install new programmes at the

 5     administration, and they worked at our offices in Banja Luka.

 6        Q.   And where were they to install programmes?

 7        A.   At the Main Staff Intelligence Administration in Han Pijesak, in

 8     that conference room that you saw on that plan.

 9        Q.   Okay, and you first go to Modrica.  And then from Modrica, where

10     do you go?

11        A.   To Bijeljina.

12        Q.   And did you stop in Bijeljina?

13        A.   [No interpretation]

14        Q.   And about what time did you get to Bijeljina, just roughly?

15        A.   It was around noon.

16        Q.   And where --

17        A.   In the afternoon.

18        Q.   What part of Bijeljina?  Did you go to the East Bosnia Corps

19     Command?

20        A.   No, no, I didn't go to the East Bosnia Corps Command.  There was

21     a group from that centre, a group of operatives.  There was a kind of

22     group, a sub-unit numbering three persons, who worked there in Modrica.

23        Q.   We're talking about Bijeljina now.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Bijeljina.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, we had an interpretation error there.

Page 13559

 1        Q.   And so what did you do in Bijeljina, in this Intelligence Centre?

 2        A.   I didn't do anything.  I was supposed to leave the IT people

 3     there.  Then they were supposed to put them in a car in Bijeljina and

 4     transport them to Han Pijesak, whereas I continued on to Belgrade.

 5        Q.   So you and your driver went to Belgrade?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And about what time did you get to Belgrade?

 8        A.   It's hard to say.  Well, it was after 1600 hours, in any case.

 9        Q.   And were you able to meet with the confidential source and

10     receive the information from him or her?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And what was the basic information that you received from this

13     source?

14        A.   The Croatian Army was to carry out an attack on the Republic of

15     the Serbian Krajina.  I think that the date for that was the 1st or the

16     2nd of August, 1995, using forces from the Zagreb, Split,

17     Rijeka Garrisons and a part of the forces from the Osijek Garrison.  The

18     attack was to be against all of the forces of the Republic of the Serbian

19     Krajina from along the area of Lika, Banja and Kordun.

20             What was the most interesting thing was that after the execution

21     of that assignment, they were going to move to attack the forces in the

22     west of Republika Srpska, in co-ordination with forces of the

23     Bosnian Army.

24        Q.   Was anybody else present with you when you received this

25     information from this source?

Page 13560

 1        A.   No.  The driver definitely was not there.  He was somewhere else.

 2     He was sitting in the car, waiting.

 3        Q.   So then what did you do?

 4        A.   Nobody else is present in these kinds of situations, as a rule.

 5        Q.   So then what did you do?

 6        A.   I had another meeting.

 7        Q.   Where?

 8        A.   In Belgrade also.

 9        Q.   With who?

10        A.   With a diplomat.

11        Q.   From where?

12        A.   In Belgrade, serving in Belgrade.

13        Q.   Did you pass on any of the information you had just learned to

14     this diplomat?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   What's the name of the diplomat?

17        A.   We discussed completely different topics.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were asked for the name of the diplomat.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to remember.  It was the

20     Japanese military attache, but I cannot remember right now, well, if that

21     means anything to you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             I wish for peace in this house, and I would like these

25     proceedings according to God's will and not according to mine.

Page 13561

 1             I wish to greet Mr. Salapura.  I wish him a pleasant stay among

 2     us.

 3             I would like to ask Mr. McCloskey, when he asks about the name of

 4     confidential sources or diplomatic representatives, that he would move

 5     into private session, not because of us or Mr. Salapura, but because of

 6     them, because we're always obliged to maintain the confidentiality of

 7     these people.  So perhaps we could move into a private session in such

 8     cases.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this assistance.

10             Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll take that proposal under advisement,

12     General, though I don't think we're getting a name anyway.

13        Q.   What did you do after your meeting with the military

14     representative from the Japanese Embassy?

15        A.   I returned to Bijeljina in the evening.

16        Q.   Where did you go in Bijeljina?

17        A.   To the premises of the centre, where I left these two IT guys

18     earlier.

19        Q.   And, roughly, what time did you get there?

20        A.   Believe me, I'm really unable to tell you.  I mean, I could give

21     you a rough, I don't know, Well, I think.  I don't know whether this was

22     at 10.00.  Perhaps 2100 hours, 2200 hours.  I don't know.  I cannot

23     really give you a definite time.

24        Q.   And so what did you do at this Intelligence Centre in Bijeljina?

25        A.   I went to sleep, and I was informed that the two IT people, they

Page 13562

 1     were not able to take them where they were supposed to go because the

 2     vehicle was -- it broke down, so they couldn't take them to Han Pijesak.

 3     And so they called me that evening also.  Mamlic answered the phone up

 4     there.  I wanted to speak to Tolimir.

 5        Q.   Did they call you or did you call them?

 6        A.   Who, did who call me?  I'm sorry, I didn't understand.  I didn't

 7     understand who you were referring to.

 8        Q.   You say, "they called me that evening also."  My question is:

 9     Did Mamlic call you or did you call Mamlic call you?

10        A.   No, no, I called, I called Mamlic, and I said that the IT people

11     had stayed in Bijeljina because they were not able to take them to

12     Han Pijesak.  They didn't have a vehicle available.  Perhaps that's where

13     the misunderstanding lies.

14        Q.   Know then what did you say to Mamlic?

15        A.   I asked for Tolimir.

16        Q.   Why?  Why did you want to speak to Tolimir?

17        A.   Well, I was supposed to convey this information to him.

18        Q.   Were you going to convey it over the telephone or however you

19     were speaking to this person?  You said you called.

20        A.   We had a secure line from Bijeljina, an encrypted line, so I was

21     able to use it for that.  I could transfer messages to Han Pijesak using

22     an encrypted line.

23        Q.   You mean oral communications or encrypted teletype?

24        A.   Yes, yes, oral communication.

25        Q.   And what did Mamlic tell you when you tried to get -- when you

Page 13563

 1     wanted him to bring you Tolimir?

 2        A.   He told me that Tolimir was not at the command post, that he was

 3     in Rogatica, or, rather, in Zepa, and that he was calling in from time to

 4     time from Rogatica, or sent some information or a request from Rogatica

 5     occasionally, but that they were not able to get in touch with him.  He

 6     was able to call from Rogatica, once he came to Rogatica, or to send a

 7     message or some information from there if something was needed.

 8        Q.   So by the -- roughly, after 10.00 p.m. on the night of the 12th,

 9     you get information that Tolimir is already on his way to the

10     Rogatica/Zepa area?

11        A.   No, I didn't get the information that he was on the way there.  I

12     received information that he was in Zepa, somewhere in that area.  I

13     didn't get information to the effect that he was on his way or anything

14     like that.

15        Q.   Did Mamlic tell you he'd been in Bijeljina that day?

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   Tolimir.

18        A.   Who?  No, no, he was calling from time to time.  He wasn't

19     calling in every day.  That's what he told me.

20        Q.   So did you make an arrangement for General Tolimir to be able to

21     receive your call through Mamlic, since he was calling in at times?

22        A.   Well, no, that was the conversation, and so now I asked him where

23     General Mladic was, could I speak to him.  He said he didn't know, he

24     didn't have any contact with him.  Of course, he didn't have any contact

25     with him.

Page 13564

 1             So now since these people did not take these IT people to

 2     Han Pijesak, I decided to go to Han Pijesak the following day to take

 3     these two people up there in my own car, and to find the commander and to

 4     convey the information to him.

 5        Q.   Did you convey this simple information you'd received to your

 6     subordinate over this secure line, Mamlic?

 7        A.   No, no, I didn't.

 8        Q.   So you were the only one that had this information in your head

 9     now.  Did you write it down?

10        A.   We did have some indications before as well.  I didn't write it

11     down anywhere at the time.  I just kept it in my head.

12        Q.   After Mamlic didn't know where Mladic was, did you have him refer

13     you to the ops. room, the ops. people, General Miletic, General Gvero,

14     someone else there?  We've seen this happen repeatedly on the intercepts.

15        A.   No, I didn't.

16        Q.   Did you check --

17        A.   No, no --

18        Q.   I understand.  Did you --

19        A.   -- because -- because I had had decided to take these two people

20     up there, and I was supposed to take them, anyway, the ones who were

21     supposed to have been taken to Han Pijesak that day.  Anyway, they didn't

22     have a vehicle, they couldn't transport them that day, so then I decided

23     to take them in my own vehicle and to personally inform the commander, or

24     possibly Tolimir, about this information that was important.  And I am

25     bound by the rules to orally state information that was important in

Page 13565

 1     decision-making or could affect or bring about a change in

 2     decision-making, and I was supposed to orally convey that to the

 3     superior, perhaps in case some clarifications were necessary.

 4        Q.   You're saying it was more important to take the IT guys to

 5     Han Pijesak than try to get Miletic or Gvero on the telephone?  Why

 6     didn't you try to get Miletic or Gvero on the phone?

 7        A.   Why would I try to get in touch with them?  In view of the

 8     importance of the information, it was my duty to inform the interested

 9     person orally and also, along with that, transport these two IT guys --

10        Q.   So why didn't you just get in your car and drive to Han Pijesak?

11     Why did you spend the night there?

12        A.   Well, why would I go at night?  You could see that I was

13     travelling.  I had covered a lot of road.  The roads were very difficult

14     at the time, they were full of potholes, worn down.  I was quite tired,

15     and also I would like to remind you that my health was not very good at

16     the time.  I was not feeling well.

17        Q.   So what did you do in the morning?  Now we're in the morning of

18     the 13th.

19        A.   I set off for Han Pijesak.

20        Q.   Did you make any determination on the security situation from the

21     roadway from Bijeljina to Han Pijesak?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Did you make any effort to find out what was going on with the

24     fall of Srebrenica, its aftermath, the movement of your troops, the

25     movement of the enemy troops, any of the critical intel information that

Page 13566

 1     the Main Staff would have been interested in there at the centre, this

 2     Intelligence Centre?

 3        A.   No.  Why would I?  I mean, that was something the Main Staff

 4     should have known about.  Somebody up there was probably dealing with

 5     that.  How was I supposed to get information about that, anyway?  Perhaps

 6     just ask the villagers along the way.

 7        Q.   You said you were at an intel centre in Bijeljina.  It was an

 8     army intel centre, I take it.  They would have had intel?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 141.

11        Q.   Now, I believe you've seen this in the other trial, though I'm

12     not -- there is two similar documents.  This, as we see, is from the

13     Drina Corps Command Intelligence Department, strictly confidential

14     number 17/896, dated 12 July.  It's to the Main Staff of the VRS

15     Sector for Intelligence and Security, to the sector for Intelligence and

16     Security, your Intelligence Administration, and then there's quite a few

17     other --

18        A.   [No interpretation]

19        Q.   -- addresses we see there, including the MUP, and it's regarding

20     the statement of a prisoner of war, Izudin Bektic.  And if we can go to

21     the end of it, I won't spend a lot of time on the intel that Bektic is

22     giving about the 28th Division escaping from Srebrenica.

23             But we see this is from your boss, Major General Zdravko Tolimir,

24     and we see a couple of stamps down there.  One is a stamp from the 2nd

25     Romanija Motorised Brigade, which we can see was one of the addressees,

Page 13567

 1     dated 13 July.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The other stamp is hard to make out, but it's dated 12 July at

 4     2210 hours.  And there's some other times, 2215 on the 12th of July,

 5     2217, so it's an evening that this document is either sent or received

 6     from the Drina Corps, under the name of General Tolimir.  So what does

 7     this suggest to you about the location of General Tolimir on the 12th of

 8     July, in the evening?

 9        A.   I don't know.  Well, here, at the Command of the

10     2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.  I don't know.  Can I see the heading of

11     the document again, please?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   The beginning of the document, I would kindly ask if I could see

14     it.

15             Yes, this is from the Command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade,

16     probably sent to the Drina Corps Command.  And then from the Drina Corps

17     Command, it was sent to the Intelligence Administration.

18        Q.   General, we can see the top heading, as in all these documents,

19     is the place where the documents originated, isn't that correct, this one

20     being the Drina Corps Command?  And from the Drina Corps Command, it was

21     sent to the Main Staff and the other places?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So given that this originated from the Drina Corps Command, does

24     this suggest to you anything about General Tolimir's location on the

25     evening of 12 July?

Page 13568

 1        A.   Well, it doesn't suggest that it's the command.  If it states at

 2     the bottom that it's the 2nd Romanija Brigade, then it's probably in that

 3     brigade, if the document was sent from there.  Perhaps he was in

 4     Vlasenica.

 5             Yes, yes, please go ahead.

 6        Q.   Do you find any indication, General, that this document was sent

 7     from the person it was addressed to, one of the people, the Romanija

 8     Brigade?  This is just a receipt stamp, isn't it?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, the IKM of the Drina Corps, the IKM Bratunac.  I would

10     just like to read it in detail first, please.

11             This was sent to a number of brigades, one, two, three, four,

12     five, six, to the MUP, to Milici, and to Zvornik for their information,

13     and it was sent from the Drina Corps Command, from the Intelligence

14     Administration there.  Perhaps General Tolimir was in Vlasenica at the

15     time.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P2203, Your Honours.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we now go to D64.  And perhaps it would help

20     the colonel if he had a document to look at.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the usher, yes, please.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

23        Q.   Colonel, we see this is -- begins very similar, from the Command

24     of the Drina Corps, Intelligence Department, and this is strictly

25     confidential number 17/897.  And we'll recall that the previous document

Page 13569

 1     was 17/896.  This is also dated 12 July.

 2             And if we go to the next page in the English --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- and the B/C/S --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   -- we again see that this is in the name of

 7     Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.  And, again, I don't want to go over the

 8     detail of this document, but it provides quite a bit of specific

 9     intelligence information regarding Muslim groups, Naser Oric's deputies.

10             And the fifth paragraph down on the first page, if we could go

11     back to the first page --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   -- it says:

14             "All electronic surveillance units of the SRK IBK," which is the

15     East Bosnia Corps in Bijeljina, "and the Drina Corps shall fucus of

16     surveillance and monitoring radio communications between these Muslim

17     groups which operate on frequency 164800."

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, where can we find it in the

19     English version?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Fifth paragraph down, if I've got the -- yes, as

21     I mentioned.  I'm sorry, I didn't notice it wasn't up there.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And as we see, this was sent to the East Bosnia Corps.  And it

25     also says:

Page 13570

 1             "The OPB organs of the brigade commands will propose to the

 2     commanders of the units positioned along the line of withdrawal of

 3     elements of the routed 28th Muslim Division from Srebrenica to undertake

 4     all measures to prevent the withdrawal of enemy soldiers ..."

 5             Let's go on to the next page.

 6             It also makes reference to how the Muslims wish to portray

 7     Srebrenica, and it says, well, it's very important to arrest as many

 8     members of the shattered Muslim units as possible or liquidate them if

 9     they resist.  It's equally important to note down the names of all fit

10     men for military service who are being evacuated from the UNPROFOR base

11     in Potocari.

12             And the receipt stamps we see, again from the 2nd Romanija

13     Motorised Brigade, 13 July, but the bottom stamp is 12 July at 2150

14     hours, and then there's another one processed 2200 hours and sent 2210

15     hours.  So, again, this is the evening of 12 July.

16             Do you know how General Tolimir received this detailed

17     intelligence information?  He's got radio frequencies, he knows what's

18     going on in Potocari, he's got information about the Muslim groups.  Were

19     you part of the chain of information that he was receiving that day, as

20     you should have been?

21        A.   No, it would have been inappropriate for me to be aware of it

22     because it would have been impossible.  I was away on a trip.  I told you

23     that yesterday.  And, second, when I went to Banja Luka, in agreement

24     with my superior, Mr. Tolimir, I went there to deal with one specific

25     problem alone.  I was supposed to stay there for a month, and I was also

Page 13571

 1     supposed to co-ordinate the work of intelligence organs between the

 2     1st and the 2nd Corps and the centre, as required, whereas

 3     General Tolimir took upon himself the work in the eastern parts.  So I

 4     didn't deal with anything of the kind over there.  I did not know that

 5     the attack on Srebrenica had been planned or carried out until the 12th,

 6     in Modrica.  In fact, it was reported by the media before I learned of

 7     it.

 8        Q.   Yes, you've said that several times, and I understand.

 9        A.   Therefore -- well, that's why I'm saying it's impossible, because

10     that's the question you asked and I'm trying to explain.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   I cannot give an answer to that.  I mean, I can speculate, I can

13     guess, but that's your assumption.  I'm telling you it's the way it was,

14     and I can tell you about the procedure for obtaining such information.

15     We had an electronic reconnaissance unit in the Drina Corps.

16        Q.   It's a simple question.  Were you part of a chain of information?

17     The answer was, No, and you've explained why.  I think we understand.  Do

18     you need to explain anything else?

19        A.   No, really not, absolutely not.  And you also asked me how

20     General Tolimir was able to get this information and whether I was part

21     of that chain.  I am just telling you that the

22     Intelligence Administration also had an electronic reconnaissance unit

23     which was a unit that kept the communications of the enemy under

24     surveillance, and they listen and eavesdrop on radio and radio-relay

25     connections, and the Drina Corps had such a unit like the

Page 13572

 1     Eastern Bosnia Corps.  They were not all equipped equally well.  Some had

 2     obsolete equipment.  But all corps had their radio reconnaissance units,

 3     and they could easily obtain such information from listening to

 4     communications on the air.  You call it intercepts, and we call it radio

 5     reconnaissance.  That's our term.

 6        Q.   And in the following next few days, the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th,

 7     did you actually receive information from your radio reconnaissance

 8     people about the 28th Division that you were able to pass on; you,

 9     yourself?

10        A.   No, the Main Staff didn't have a unit of its own.  Only the corps

11     had electronic reconnaissance units, and only the corps monitored these

12     communications, and they were able to obtain and process such

13     information.  The Main Staff -- that is to say, the administration did

14     not have an electronic reconnaissance unit within its composition.

15        Q.   General, I was asking you:  Did you get information from your

16     subordinate corps, the Drina Corps?  Did you, at the Main Staff, get such

17     electronic information from the Drina Corps about the movements of the

18     28th Division or any intel that you dealt with; you, Colonel Salapura?

19        A.   I did not --

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, getting --

21        A.   -- absolutely.

22        Q.   Okay.  Getting back to this document, again it's from the Command

23     of the Drina Corps, in the evening, from General Tolimir.  Does that

24     suggest to you, especially when you combine the other document with the

25     same origin, that he spent at least some time at Vlasenica on the evening

Page 13573

 1     of 12th July?

 2        A.   I don't know to whom this document was sent.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, let's go to the first page.  It's just like

 4     the other one.

 5        Q.   It's from the command.  It doesn't have as many addressees.  We

 6     can see that.  It's to the Intelligence and Security Departments.

 7        A.   12th July.  Is this the document numbered 17/897, dated 12 July?

 8        Q.   That's the one I'm asking about, very similar to the last one.

 9        A.   Yes.  If that's the document, yes, it was sent from the Command

10     of the Drina Corps, their Intelligence Section.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it was sent to the

13     Sarajevo Romanija Corps and the Eastern Bosnia Corps.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 7348 [Realtime transcript read

15     in error "3760"].  This also did not have a 65 ter number, so I would

16     request leave of the Court to, based on some answers to my questions,

17     show this to the witness.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Sir, we can see this is from the Main Staff, the

21     Intelligence Administration, dated 15 July, very urgent, to the

22     Radio Reconnaissance Platoon of the Drina Corps, to

23     Colonel Mirko Petrovic, personally.  Is this your signature at the bottom

24     of this?

25        A.   Yes, it is, to the Radio Reconnaissance Platoon.  Yes, it is,

Page 13574

 1     yes, it's my signature.

 2        Q.   So you were involved?

 3        A.   It's probably Mamlic who wrote this, typed it up and gave me to

 4     sign, and then I signed it.

 5        Q.   So you were involved with the Drina Corps radio reconnaissance

 6     information?  Does this help refresh your recollection or are you putting

 7     this completely on Mamlic?

 8        A.   No, no.  Mamlic was a desk officer in charge of radio

 9     reconnaissance and he was in charge of this job, but this was just an

10     instruction given to other units to jam communications.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I should point out there's a typo in this

12     English translation.  It says the 26th Division, and that should be the

13     28th Division, Mr. President.

14        Q.   So according to this document, you've issued an instruction to

15     the Drina Corps radio recon people to jam the communications of the

16     scattered group of the 28th Division.  We all know that's Naser Oric's

17     group, though he wasn't there, and the forces of the 2nd Corps of the

18     Muslim army, which we know are on the other side of the line --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   -- and have a task to carry out a co-ordinated operation in the

21     general sector of Zvornik and Sekovici.  It's like their own typo, not

22     ours, on the spelling of "Sekovici."  Do you agree with that?  There's no

23     such place as Sehovici, is there?

24        A.   "Co-ordinated action of forces in the broader area of Zvornik and

25     Sehovici."

Page 13575

 1        Q.   So according to this document, you will have been following --

 2        A.   What do you mean Sehovici is not there?  Sehovici is there, along

 3     a different road also leading to Zvornik.

 4        Q.   That's not how you spell Sekovici, is it?

 5        A.   Here, you have an "h" instead of "k."

 6        Q.   My question was:  That's just a typo, isn't it?  Isn't that meant

 7     to be "Sekovici"?

 8        A.   Probably, probably.

 9        Q.   So you, having written this document with this information in it,

10     would have been follow the activities of the 15th of July that were going

11     on in the area of Zvornik?  The Muslim column, as it was moving from

12     Srebrenica through the zone of Zvornik, passed the area of Sekovici; is

13     that right?

14        A.   Yes, I signed this document.  This is to turn on the jamming

15     devices.  Somebody must have sent a request to Mamlic, and then Mamlic

16     drafted it and gave me it to sign, and later on I found myself at the

17     command post.  But the information we received, we did not receive

18     directly from electronic reconnaissance, but we received intelligence

19     reports already processed by the Drina Corps.  That's to say we did not

20     receive primary documents, but secondary documents.

21        Q.   So you're back at the -- on the 15th, you're at the Crna Rijeka

22     Command Post, and you're engaged in your intelligence work, and you're

23     following what's going on in Zvornik with the Muslim column; is that

24     fair?

25        A.   On the 15th of July, yes.

Page 13576

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Could we go briefly back --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not taking part in the

 3     intelligence work.  I got involved from time to time, of course I was

 4     interested in what was going on, and we were monitoring mainly

 5     preparations of the Tuzla Corps for a counter-attack.  That was the focus

 6     of our attention.  But, of course, in the process of monitoring them, you

 7     also monitor the other communications.  That was on the 15th, and, of

 8     course, alongside you monitor the other communications as well.

 9        Q.   Did you know at the time that on the 15th of July, about 800

10     prisoners had been summarily executed in the Zvornik area around

11     Orahovac, about 800 had been summarily executed in the Zvornik area

12     around the village of Petkovci, and they were beginning to be executed

13     near the village of Kozluk, at the same time that the

14     Muslim 28th Division is -- you're jamming their communications?

15        A.   No, definitely, and still don't understand to date that such an

16     idea could have been conceived in anyone's head.  But I did not know a

17     word about it.

18        Q.   Did you know your colleague, Colonel Beara, was working with

19     Zvornik Brigade Security Officer Drago Nikolic in organising and

20     facilitating those summary executions?

21        A.   No, definitely not.

22        Q.   Did you know that your colleague in the Drina Corps,

23     Major Pavle Golic, was communicating with Colonel Beara and Drago Nikolic

24     regarding the organisation and the facilitation of those murders?

25        A.   No.

Page 13577

 1        Q.   And were you aware that Colonel Beara was asked to call and

 2     report to the Main Staff several times during the days of the 14th, the

 3     15th, the 16th, where you were, Crna Rijeka?  Did that make its way to

 4     the Intelligence Department or have you just not heard any of that?

 5        A.   Sorry.  To report about what?

 6        Q.   What they were doing, I guess.  They were asked to report, report

 7     what they were doing in Zvornik?

 8        A.   No, no.  That never reached me.  I don't know whether that

 9     information ever got to other operative organs, but it did not reach me.

10     And my administration and Mamlic certainly did not learn about it,

11     because a thing of this kind he would have reported to me immediately.

12     Whether it had reached General Miletic or someone else, I don't know.

13        Q.   Did your subordinate intelligence analyst, Radoslav Jankovic, who

14     was in Bratunac from the 11th, 12th, 13th, through at least the 18th and

15     19th, did he send you reports on what he was doing in the

16     Bratunac/Potocari area on those days?

17        A.   Well, he was at the SFOR base.  That's what I was told.  He was

18     re-subordinated to the Command of the Drina Corps to serve as a liaison

19     officer at the SFOR base in Potocari, and that's the job he was doing.

20     He was not duty-bound to submit that information to us, but to the

21     Drina Corps Command, but sometimes he would pass on information to the

22     Intelligence Administration of the Main Staff as well.

23        Q.   Well, you've seen those documents in the previous trial, when he

24     reported to the Main Staff, Jankovic; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13578

 1        Q.   We'll go over a few of those.

 2        A.   Yes, there's one or two.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could I tender 65 ter 7348?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P2204, Your Honours.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Okay.  In the chronology, you're in Bijeljina.  What do you do in

 8     the morning?

 9        A.   When in the morning?

10        Q.   Well, you get up.  Where do you go from Bijeljina?

11        A.   To the toilet.  Then I go wash my face and get ready.  And then

12     from Bijeljina, I went in the morning -- do you mean the 13th?  To

13     Han Pijesak.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, the 13th.  So where did you go on the morning of the

15     13th?

16        A.   To Han Pijesak.

17        Q.   And did you check the security situation on the roadway - that's

18     where we left off - before driving down there?

19        A.   No.  No, I never checked that.

20        Q.   And where can you go?

21        A.   If there was a problem, somebody would have stopped me.  They

22     would just stop the car and say, You can't go on, there's something going

23     on further up the road.  And I've been through critical situations many

24     times during the war, and nobody -- nobody ever warned me that there was

25     a problem somewhere.

Page 13579

 1        Q.   And so when did you first drive to from Bijeljina?

 2        A.   When I went to Han Pijesak, and my first stop was at

 3     Konjevic Polje.

 4        Q.   And can you tell us -- the Judges are familiar with this, but

 5     from Bijeljina, up in the north, did you go along the river through

 6     Zvornik and then down to Konjevic Polje?  Is that the way you went?  --

 7        A.   No, not north, just down the Drina River.  Yes, yes, yes, to the

 8     right, that's the road I took.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, could you please check the

10     transcript.  On page 30, line 21, it is recorded that you have said:

11             "And so when did you first drive to Bijeljina?"

12             Was that really your question?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should have been "from Bijeljina."  I could

14     have misspoken.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   So you get to Konjevic Polje, and where, precisely, do you go?

18        A.   Sorry, now I have some interference.

19             From Konjevic Polje, when I got there, on the left side there was

20     some sort of stadium.  There were quite a few prisoners there.  And I

21     headed to the Battalion of the Military Police.  That's up towards

22     Kasaba.  I wanted to get information about the whereabouts of

23     General Mladic.

24             So I came to the MP Battalion.  I believe the battalion

25     commander, Malinic, was there.  And then they told me that they didn't

Page 13580

 1     know exactly, but he was somewhere in the area of Bratunac, so I headed

 2     back and towards Bratunac.

 3        Q.   So was this the 65th Protection Regiment Military Police

 4     Battalion?

 5        A.   No, that was a battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment of the

 6     military police.  It was a battalion within the 65th Regiment.

 7        Q.   And where did the 65th Protection Regiment belong, where did that

 8     belong in the structure?

 9        A.   It's an independent unit of the Main Staff.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Could we have 65 ter 888.

11        Q.   Now, do you recall basically testifying to that chronology in the

12     Blagojevic case, where you testified about getting to Nova Kasaba, and

13     the prisoners at the 65th, and going to the 65th Protection Regiment

14     base?  Do you remember testifying about that?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   And do you remember the Defence attorney --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- for Colonel Blagojevic had showed you this particular

19     intercept during that testimony?  Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

21        Q.   And so had he shown you this intercept, before you'd actually

22     testified, to help you get ready for the testimony and what you would be

23     testifying about?

24        A.   No, no, he didn't.

25        Q.   So the first time you saw this was when he dropped it on you in

Page 13581

 1     the trial?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed.

 5             We must have our first break now, and we will resume quarter past

 6     4.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please go ahead.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And, Mr. President, I've cut some material

11     and tried to estimate.  And I'm going much slower than I had thought, but

12     I will finish this segment, if that's all right.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It means a little bit more than one additional

14     hour.  Try to do your very best.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Definitely.

16        Q.   All right.  Colonel, we had this intercept up on the board, and

17     you recall talking about it in the Blagojevic trial, I'm sure.  This is

18     an intercept we received from the Croatian Government.  It's a synopsis,

19     as you can see, and it says:

20             "Major Malinic, the commander of the 65th Protective

21     Motorised Regiment, and Colonel Pero Salapura ..."

22             Are you ever called "Pero"?

23        A.   Not to my face.  Pepo.  Maybe some people in Croatia maybe called

24     me Pero some time ago.

25        Q.   And you just said "Pepo"?

Page 13582

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   Is Pepo your normal nickname?

 3        A.   That would be the most oftenly used, but Pero, Pepo, Petar.

 4     There are many nicknames in our part of the world.

 5        Q.   Yes, we know that.  So now it says "VRS Security Service" in

 6     English.  Is that what it says in the Serbian, or the Croatian, I should

 7     say?

 8        A.   It says "Security Service," and it shouldn't be, it should be

 9     "Intelligence Service," because Security Service" is "Bezbednost."

10     They've obviously mixed things up.

11        Q.   Okay, so they got that wrong.  You said that --

12        A.   It doesn't matter.

13        Q.   You did say you were at the football field at Kasaba, and this

14     says they were about -- around about 500 prisoners there at the moment.

15     Is that roughly correct?  When you were there, were there 500, about?

16        A.   If I may, please, I think this was in Konjevic Polje.  This

17     football pitch was in Konjevic Polje, not in Kasaba, or am I wrong?  But

18     I think it was in Konjevic Polje.  It was on the right-hand side.  If

19     that's how it was, then, yes, I was not at the football pitch, itself.  I

20     just passed by it.  And on the way back from Bratunac, I was stopped by a

21     non-commissioned officer, I think, who asked me to go see Malinic again

22     and to pass it on to him that there were certain problems there.  Whether

23     it was about water or -- I can't remember now, because I met with Malinic

24     both on my way there and back.  But I did not go to the football pitch.

25     I just passed by it, and I was stopped there by this man.  And then my

Page 13583

 1     conversations with Malinic were at a school, but I think that school is

 2     in Kasaba, where the Command of the Military Police Battalion was.

 3        Q.   And did you make any effort to communicate with anyone, over

 4     telephone or radio, from the base of the 65th Protection Regiment, the

 5     Military Police Battalion?

 6        A.   Whether I talked with someone from that location, no, I don't

 7     remember talking to anyone from the base, except directly with Malinic,

 8     but I don't remember any other conversations.

 9        Q.   And what did you learn from Malinic?

10        A.   Nothing.  Our first conversation, and I told you about it, was

11     about where General Mladic is, and I was told that General Mladic was in

12     the area of Bratunac.  And on my return, I just passed on the information

13     received from his soldiers that they are having problems with water,

14     because it's very hot and they just need more water.

15        Q.   So Malinic told you where Mladic was, and you just went to see

16     Mladic; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.  From there, I then returned back, and

18     from there, I set off to Bratunac.  And I was told there, at the brigade

19     command, that Mladic wasn't there, that he was somewhere in the area of

20     Srebrenica.  And I also left the IT people there, and I headed for

21     Srebrenica and Potocari.  At first, I thought it was Srebrenica, but

22     later on, in my conversations or during the interview with your

23     investigator, who showed me a photo, I realised I hadn't been in

24     Srebrenica, but in Potocari instead.

25        Q.   Well, before leaving the Kasaba area, where these 500 prisoners

Page 13584

 1     were, did you make any effort to see what sort of intelligence

 2     information was being gathered from these prisoners or whether there had

 3     been any effort -- any organised effort to interview them to get intel?

 4        A.   No, no.  First of all, there was no one I would ask.  I wouldn't

 5     know who to ask.  There were only soldiers there.  And, secondly, I did

 6     not take part in the planning of the operation, not at all.  And in the

 7     planning, everything gets organised.  I cannot get involved, and there

 8     would be no purpose in my involvement.  There was nothing I could get out

 9     from that.  It's a system that is functioning, goes from platoon to

10     company, battalion, brigade, and so on and so forth.  Everything is well

11     organised.  I could not just get out and then go just to the -- I was,

12     you see -- I was chief of administration.  It would be silly.  I would

13     come to a soldier and say, You, soldier, tell me, and what should I ask

14     them?  I didn't even know what to ask.  I was not involved in the

15     planning of the operation at all.  And as far as Srebrenica, itself, for

16     me and for the Intelligence Administration, Srebrenica was not of any

17     interest.  Immediately after the taking of Srebrenica, itself, it became

18     absolutely uninteresting for us.  We were interested in the Tuzla Corps

19     and the problems concerning the column that you asked me about.  That was

20     something that was under the jurisdiction of military police, MUP, and

21     other organs.  Any information, of course, received is passed on, yes,

22     but this was not the focus of our activities, and especially not the

23     focus of my activities.  I was there just -- I just happened to be there,

24     and I did not try and get into anything.

25        Q.   So when you went by the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, did you

Page 13585

 1     see any intel person, Momir Nikolic, Radoslav Jankovic, the commander?

 2     Did you see any officers there at all?

 3        A.   No.  Well, yes, I ran into -- I don't know who he was, but he was

 4     the duty officer of the Bratunac Brigade.  And I did ask him about the

 5     whereabouts of General Mladic, and he told me that General Mladic was in

 6     the area of Srebrenica.  I also left the two officers there, and I asked

 7     them to -- asked the people there to give them something to eat.  I do

 8     not remember seeing any of the officers.  I did not even know the

 9     commander of the brigade there.  I didn't know the officers there.

10        Q.   Had you learned that Radoslav Jankovic was there from Malinic?

11        A.   Not from Malinic.  Malinic was commander of the Military Police

12     Battalion.  I didn't know where Radoslav Jankovic was at that time.  I

13     believed he was up there.  Only when I got there, Mamlic told me that

14     Karanovic was on leave, that this one was as I just mentioned, and that

15     he was on his own, and so on and so forth.

16        Q.   So when you keep saying "up there," so when you got back to

17     Crna Rijeka on that very day, the 13th, that's when you learned Jankovic

18     was in the Bratunac area?

19        A.   Yes, that Jankovic was at the SFOR compound.  That's what I was

20     told, I assume upon an order by his commander or maybe General Tolimir,

21     that he was assigned to be the liaison officer of the Drina Corps with

22     the SFOR and that he is at the SFOR compound in -- not in Bratunac, but

23     in - what's it called? - Potocari.

24        Q.   And when you say "SFOR" --

25        A.   Or Bratunac.

Page 13586

 1        Q.   As you're aware, SFOR was the name of one of the NATO contingents

 2     that was there.  The first one in 1996 was IFOR, the next one was SFOR.

 3     So when you say "SFOR," what do you mean; UNPROFOR?

 4        A.   Yes, it was first UNPROFOR during the war, yes.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Can we see P01021, starting at

 6     65 ter 888.  Oh, excuse me, I didn't offer to tender the last one, 888.

 7     I'm sorry.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, we have seen on the screen two

 9     intercepts, the English interpretation or translation of two intercepts,

10     but you were only dealing with one we have seen in B/C/S.  Is it possible

11     to up-load only the -- the translation of that one you, in fact, are

12     tendering?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it is.  It's always been that way, but

14     there's no reason it should be.  You're correct, we can just get the one.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That one, in both versions, will be received as

16     an exhibit.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P2205, Your Honours.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   And before I play the video:  Were you able to see Mladic,

20     shortly after leaving Bratunac, either in Potocari or in Srebrenica?

21        A.   Yes.  In Potocari, yes.

22        Q.   And when you saw him, was there anybody filming?  Did you see any

23     film cameras?

24        A.   Yes, yes, there were more than one people with cameras.  There

25     were also journalists there.  He was answering questions, giving an

Page 13587

 1     interview.  They were recording it, and I stood there, about 30 metres

 2     away from him, and then he just gave me a sign saying, Wait a minute.

 3        Q.   So did you understand that it was likely that you were filmed as

 4     well?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't paying attention.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's play the video.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you do this, perhaps --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, I saw it in court.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps I missed something.

10             I recall that you told us you received a secret message in

11     Belgrade, and then you wanted to contact Mladic or Tolimir, is that

12     correct, in order to convey this message?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct.  That's

14     why I was there in the first place.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you convey this message to General Mladic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had that message for him and

17     another or maybe two more proposals.  But even as I was conveying him the

18     message and my views on it, we disagreed about certain things.  And our

19     conversation was interrupted, and then I got back into my vehicle and

20     headed to Han Pijesak.  We had an argument about some items concerning

21     the message, itself, its urgency and the seriousness of the content.

22             General Mladic was elated with the success of the operation.  It

23     was completed successfully, without significant casualties and so on.

24     And I told him that that was of lesser importance, that General Krstic

25     should deal with the rest of the situation, and that General Mladic

Page 13588

 1     should start dealing with the problems in the west.  And then we had kind

 2     of a conflict, and then I just turned on my heel and left.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry for interrupting, Mr. McCloskey.  Please

 4     carry on.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We have a film that we believe is

 6     from the 13th of July from Serbian Radio and Television, and we'll start

 7     it at 40:10.  It's P01021.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We've stopped it at 41:06.1.  We see

10     General Mladic has just been chatting with a woman.

11        Q.   Do you recognise anyone in that photograph besides

12     General Mladic?

13        A.   Yes.  I'm here, behind.

14        Q.   Well, there is -- are you behind the woman in the --

15        A.   I think so.  Yes, yes, yes, I think that's me.

16        Q.   Behind the woman in the white T-shirt?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Your face is partially obscured by her head?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was this around the time that you spoke to General Mladic?

21        A.   Yes.  I think this was before our conversation, because we

22     started our conversation after everything was recorded.  That's at least

23     how I remember things.

24        Q.   So did you have --

25        A.   I don't remember this very segment, but it could have been only

Page 13589

 1     immediately prior to our conversation.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I think we can just play it out.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It ended at 00:41:17.5.

 5        Q.   Now, Colonel, did you have a chance, after that little video-clip

 6     we saw, to actually speak to Mladic privately?

 7        A.   I spoke to him personally, if that's what you're asking me.  In

 8     the clip, there was no conversation between us.  But our conversation was

 9     not private; it was official.

10        Q.   What I mean, Colonel, is did you talk to him about these

11     important matters, with other people listening, or did you talk to him

12     alone, just you and he?

13        A.   I think his security detail was there.  I don't know how many

14     people, how many soldiers, but they were several metres away.  This is my

15     best recollection.

16        Q.   And when you and your driver went back, did you drive through

17     Potocari on your way?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And, roughly, what time of day is it that you're driving back,

20     just very roughly?  We see, from the intercept, that they overheard some

21     communication about you being there at about 10.15 at Kasaba, in the

22     morning, so can you give us just a rough gauge on when you would have

23     left to go --

24        A.   It may have been 10.00, Kasaba.  It may have been 2.00 p.m. or

25     1.00 p.m.  I cannot be more precise than that.

Page 13590

 1        Q.   And when you went through Potocari, did you notice men, old men

 2     and young men, being separated from their families?

 3        A.   At that time, there were like elderly men, younger men, women,

 4     children, but I did not observe any kind of selection.  I did see women

 5     and children getting onto the buses, but I wasn't paying too much

 6     attention to that.  I think they were at the time loading up buses,

 7     because there were a few buses there.  And, yes, there were many, many,

 8     many women and children and elderly people, but I cannot give you any

 9     precise numbers either, and there were also our soldiers there.

10        Q.   According to a Bratunac Brigade MP who has testified in this

11     case, he was directed to count the men who were separated from their

12     families by your subordinate, Radoslav Jankovic, who was also in Potocari

13     at that time.  Did you see Radoslav Jankovic in Potocari either when you

14     went through the first time or came back on the second time on the 13th?

15        A.   No, no.  I haven't seen him at all, and I didn't have any

16     contacts with him.

17        Q.   Did you see any bodies --

18        A.   And I also didn't see any of the officers I knew at the time in

19     Potocari.  I believe -- at least I haven't noticed any separation going

20     on.  I just saw several buses there, and people were entering into the

21     buses.  It was before I set off back that I saw people entering the

22     buses, after my conversation with Mladic.

23        Q.   When you had your conversation with Mladic, did he tell you about

24     his order to separate the men and have them all killed?

25        A.   No.  I don't think he would have said something like that to my

Page 13591

 1     face.  He certainly wouldn't have said that to my face.  If he did issue

 2     such an order or anything like that, he would definitely not have said it

 3     in front of me.  And we -- I just said I had two or three questions to

 4     discuss with him, but the conversation was cut off, on the basic

 5     question.  I had -- about this conversation with the diplomat, I mean, we

 6     can go back to that now.  When we were talking, he asked me, What's going

 7     on in Srebrenica?  I told him that I didn't know, that I didn't have any

 8     information, that I didn't even know about it.  And then we talked about

 9     this arrival, that we would see.  And he said, You probably have a lot of

10     prisoners, and it would be a good thing to organise that and treat them

11     strictly in the spirit of the Geneva Conventions, and, in a way, we could

12     perhaps help out in changing this image of you that the world has.  It

13     was my intention also to talk about that, to convey that to the

14     commander.

15        Q.   Who are you saying is telling you that you have a lot of

16     prisoners and they should be treated according to the Geneva Conventions?

17     Who is saying this to you?  You lost me.

18        A.   No, I said this is what the diplomat in Belgrade told me.  I told

19     you that.  Most probably, you will have a lot of prisoners.  As for this

20     here, no, this was not discussed at all in the conversation between me

21     and General Mladic, just what we were doing, we did a great job, we

22     completed it all quickly, the operations.  He was talking with

23     journalists over there.  I think they were waiting for him to give

24     another interview, I think.

25        Q.   So you're now saying a Japanese diplomat, on the night of the

Page 13592

 1     12th, told you you probably have a lot of prisoners and you should treat

 2     them according to the Geneva Conventions?

 3        A.   Yes, and that this should be open and shown to the world, this

 4     position of ours, this attitude of ours.

 5        Q.   Okay.  After you go through Potocari, and, as you've said, you

 6     didn't see much, I take it you go through Bratunac, and then on to

 7     Konjevic Polje, and passed Nova Kasaba, and on to Han Pijesak.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you see anything or talk to anyone of significance?

10        A.   Well, I said I met with Malinic again, I dropped by again on my

11     way back, because when we got there to the intersection where the

12     prisoners were, one of his superiors, a non-commissioned officer, asked

13     me to drop by at -- stop by at the battalion command and to tell them

14     that they were having problems with water, that they didn't have water.

15     So I dropped by there again.  I don't know what time it was.  It was

16     already the afternoon.  I dropped by at Malinic's, at the battalion

17     command, and I conveyed this to him.

18        Q.   Were there more prisoners on the soccer pitch than there were the

19     first time you were there?

20        A.   Prisoners?  I don't think so.  Well, I didn't really count the

21     first time.  I didn't pay attention.  There were quite a few, but I

22     couldn't tell you exactly how many.  I said that the last time.  There

23     was several hundred.  I don't know how many.  I didn't notice that it was

24     any kind of large number.

25        Q.   The intercept said "500."  Do you disagree with that?

Page 13593

 1        A.   I really couldn't say.  I really wouldn't want to be going back

 2     and forth with the number.  I couldn't say whether it was 200, 300, 500.

 3     I wasn't really paying attention to that.

 4        Q.   What happened to those 500 prisoners?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I am just talking about that -- well, I can say,

 6     through the trial proceedings, the reports, that these people were shot,

 7     but at that point in time I didn't know what happened.  I didn't know

 8     what was going on right until the time of the Erdemovic case.

 9        Q.   So what do you learn at the time of the Erdemovic case?  And

10     Erdemovic was arrested on March 2nd, 1996, in Belgrade, and his initial

11     appearance at the Tribunal was 31 May 1996.

12        A.   Yes, already then the media began to write, already when he was

13     arrested in Belgrade, about how members or a group of members from the

14     Sabotage Battalion executed a number of those prisoners and whatnot.  And

15     what do I know?  And they did mention some numbers.  The numbers keep

16     changing from then to now.  The numbers range from 3.000 to 8.000, the

17     total number of people who were shot.

18        Q.   So are you saying it wasn't until sometime after his arrest on

19     March 2nd, 1996, that you learned that people were murdered by the VRS?

20        A.   Yes.  When this was published in the press, then the stories

21     began.

22        Q.   Well, we have spent quite a bit of time looking at how the

23     10th Sabotage was used, how it was used in Srebrenica.  And what have you

24     learned?  How was it used on the 16th of July, 1995?

25        A.   Yes, I found out that a group of soldiers was used, not a unit.

Page 13594

 1        Q.   What did you find out?

 2        A.   First, I received information that it was three or four soldiers.

 3     This was when Erdemovic was arrested.  After that, the first headlines in

 4     the press appeared.  I can't remember the exact date.  And then later,

 5     everything was published.  It was all clear through the proceedings in

 6     this Tribunal, and so on and so forth.  But then I called Pelemis, the

 7     commander of the unit.  I was already on vacation or at -- was available,

 8     and I asked him whether this was correct, that they participated.  And I

 9     know that at that time, that a part of the unit was in Modrica and the

10     other part was engaged in combat in Srebrenica, and then they were

11     allowed to have a ten-day rest period.  He told me --

12        Q.   Please tell us what Pelemis told you.

13        A.   He told me that, yes, they did take part, they were engaged.  And

14     then I asked him, Did you take part in the ordering?  He said he did not,

15     but that the soldiers went voluntarily, that he did not order them to do

16     so.  I said that nothing further interested me.  The person whose problem

17     it was would then need to resolve the problem subsequently.  That's all.

18     I just want -- I told him, I just want to know if you were or weren't.

19     And if you were involved, then you need to face that.

20        Q.   So do you really believe that four soldiers went voluntarily and

21     took part in this massive execution?  Is that really what you think

22     happened, it was just the four soldiers went voluntarily, no orders

23     given?

24        A.   Well, see, I asked Pelemis if he was the one who issued the

25     order, and he told me that he wasn't and that they went voluntarily.  And

Page 13595

 1     to this day, I don't know exactly what the actual truth is.

 2        Q.   So, Colonel, what did you learn really happened?  Four soldiers

 3     don't find their way across the country-side to a mass execution

 4     voluntarily.

 5        A.   No, no, no, I'm talking about the time -- absolutely.  I'm just

 6     telling you what I got at that time, what is left.  I am not going into

 7     the things that I could read about in the press and things that emerged

 8     in the trials before this Tribunal up until now.  I don't want to go into

 9     that.  This was something that was already established by the Court.  You

10     probably know that so much better than me in a second, in a minute.

11        Q.   Erdemovic has stated that he was able to get an ID to help him

12     get into Serbia.  Did you help Erdemovic and others get IDs, well before

13     he got arrested?

14        A.   What personal ID?  I don't know what you're talking about.  Whose

15     ID he got?

16        Q.   Did you help get fake IDs for Erdemovic and other members of the

17     10th Sabotage Detachment so they could get into Serbia or for other

18     purposes?

19        A.   Republika Srpska, they had personal ID cards in Republika Srpska,

20     and they, in any event, had them still.  I think they were issued to them

21     during the war so that they would be able to move around as citizens.  As

22     for fake ones, that is something I don't know, if these were the ones

23     that were issued in Republika Srpska.  I don't know about them getting

24     any other kind of IDs.  I don't know.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we have 65 ter 7360 on the screen.

Page 13596

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I know that the MUP of

 2     Republika Srpska issued them with ID cards.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Do you wish to change your testimony, sir, before this document

 5     comes up on the stand -- up on the screen?

 6        A.   Regarding what?  Regarding the IDs?

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's take a look at this.

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is dated 16 January 1996, well before Erdemovic was

10     arrested?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   It's a document from the Public Security Department head.

13        A.   [No interpretation]

14        Q.   And it's to the Main Staff of the VRS, Sector for Intelligence

15     and Security, intelligence information -- for information, and the police

16     say:

17             "Please find enclosed the full text of a dispatch from the

18     Main Staff of the VRS."

19        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.  Yes, I see.

20        Q.   Let me read it, sir:

21             "... Sector for Intelligence and Security."

22             And they send this thing on.  And if we go to the second page,

23     what they send on - could we go to the next page in English - is in your

24     name, so let's see what they say you sent them, because they said they

25     enclosed the full text of the dispatch, as we can see.  That was dated

Page 13597

 1     14 January to the Ministry of Interior, to the minister, personally.  So

 2     you're communicating to him personally:

 3             "Considering that we have a group of members of the

 4     10th Sabotage Detachment who are foreign citizens or are on the list of

 5     individuals who have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal, we ask that you

 6     order the Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian first names

 7     and last names to these individuals, or with different first and last

 8     names for Serbian nationals.  There are eight such individuals.

 9             "They should be reported by the commander of the

10     10th Sabotage Detachment or the intelligence person from the command of

11     the detachment.

12             "Please inform us about your decision.

13             "Chief, Colonel Petar Salapura."

14             Now --

15        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.

16        Q.   Drazen Erdemovic, his testimony is that eight members of the

17     10th Sabotage Detachment took part in this mass execution, and here, sir,

18     you --

19        A.   Yes.  Yes, I see it here, eight, yes.

20        Q.   And I don't need to remind you you're testifying under oath.

21        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

22        Q.   But, sir --

23        A.   I am testifying correct, absolutely.  Believe me, I do not recall

24     this, but I do accept it, meaning that then I -- yes, I see it.

25        Q.   Colonel, you've --

Page 13598

 1        A.   But I am telling you that I was convinced that that's what it was

 2     up until this moment.

 3        Q.   Colonel, you've testified that you didn't even hear about any of

 4     the killings until Erdemovic was arrested, which wasn't until March.

 5     You're now, in a document dated January, talking about a list of people

 6     in The Hague indictment list, and you're asking for fake --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   -- IDs for them.  So, sir, you are involved in this much more

 9     than you're telling us, aren't you?  Why don't you tell us the truth?

10     How much are you involved?  Just tell us right now.  Get it off your

11     chest.

12        A.   No, no.  Believe me, I am getting it off my chest.  I have

13     nothing to do with that, and I am horrified by it.  Today, I'm horrified

14     by it, but I'm not able to connect that to the actual events.  It's been

15     quite a while since that time.  I think that then, the first information

16     I had about it, then I didn't know that anyone from this unit

17     participated in that.  I received information about it down there in

18     Mostar from Safet Orucevic when he told me that there were stories there

19     that people from Srebrenica were killed, a number of them, and so on and

20     so forth, so I cannot really tell you exactly when this was.  It was in

21     late 1995, 1996.  I really -- couldn't really get a grasp on the number

22     of the people, that something like that was possible, the scale.  But

23     here I see that it is the 16th of January, 1996.

24        Q.   All right, Colonel, let's go back.  You're now --

25        A.   Yes, yes, that's when the indictment was issued.

Page 13599

 1        Q.   And what time do you get back to Crna Rijeka on the 13th, just

 2     roughly again?

 3        A.   It was in the afternoon.

 4        Q.   All right.  And do you see General Mladic that night?

 5        A.   When I returned?  No, I don't know that I saw him.  I don't

 6     remember seeing him in Crna Rijeka.

 7        Q.   And did you receive an intelligence update on what was going on

 8     in Srebrenica, and Nova Kasaba, Bratunac, the column going towards Tuzla;

 9     anything?

10        A.   No, not then.

11        Q.   The next morning, on the 14th, I want to ask you about -- we know

12     on the 15th, as you've already told us, that you issued an order to jam

13     the communications of the 28th Division and the 2nd Corps, but let's talk

14     about the 14th.  I want to go to --

15        A.   Yes, the jamming, the jamming, yes.

16        Q.   Well, I want to go to the 14th.  The jamming was the 15th, when

17     you're at work, so -- and you've --

18        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would like to tender 65 ter 7360, if I could.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit

21     list, and this document will be received.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P2206, Your Honours.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   And, Colonel --

Page 13600

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one question to the witness at this

 2     moment, please.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, how many letters did you write directly to a

 5     minister of your government?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How many questions I sent to the

 7     minister?

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many letters did you write directly to a

 9     minister of your government?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence minister, you mean?

11     Which minister?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A minister, any minister of your government.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I really couldn't

14     say.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did that happen quite often?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember how many I wrote.

17     Not many.  I don't remember.  Perhaps I sent some to the minister of

18     defence.  I don't see any reason to write or of having to write to any

19     other ministers.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that the normal chain of reporting for you,

21     as a colonel in the army, directly to a minister of your government?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not customary, unless

23     there was a need for something specific.  I don't know.  I don't remember

24     what letters I wrote and what the letters were about.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you are still saying that you don't recall

Page 13601

 1     this letter about the fake IDs you wrote personally to a minister?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know, and I said that.  I know

 3     that ID cards were issued to everyone in Republika Srpska, and that I

 4     requested that, and that they were issued by the

 5     Bijeljina Security Centre.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, one moment, please.  I'm not asking you

 7     about the normal procedure to all citizens of Republika Srpska.  I'm

 8     asking you about this --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that, yes.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- to the minister, personally.  This is a quite

11     unusual letter.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What was the reason for that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, like it said, there are

15     letters.  I'm not disputing that.  They are there, but I simply don't

16     remember.  I know that I did request that ID cards be issued to soldiers

17     who did not have our ID cards.  I don't know whether that was then and

18     with this motive here.  Please believe me that I don't remember, but that

19     is that.  I do accept that.  I'm not disputing it, but it's been a lot of

20     time since then, and a person just doesn't remember everything.  I wrote

21     a lot of documents and sent them out.  I did write frequently to the

22     foreign minister also, also to the Security Services.  This was the

23     customary channel of communication.  But I don't think that I wrote many

24     letters to the minister of the interior.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you ever write a letter to the foreign

Page 13602

 1     minister, personally?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did to a foreign minister,

 3     yes, I did.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Personally?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, personally to him, yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were you allowed, as a career officer of the

 7     army, to write letters to the foreign minister, personally and directly?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because there was certain

 9     information there that was at the same time of interest for me and for

10     him or them.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you didn't send it through your superiors in

12     the chain of command to your commander in the Ministry of Defence?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it didn't go to the Ministry of

14     Defence.  It went to them directly from the General Staff, but it was

15     sent once the commander approved it and said that the foreign minister or

16     the president of Republika Srpska would need to be informed about that

17     particular piece of information.  Then that kind of information we did

18     send out.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Colonel, is there anything about this particular request that you

22     sent to the minister that would have upset your boss, General Tolimir?  I

23     mean, we all know what upsets our bosses.

24        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't know if Tolimir is informed about

25     this, how can I put it?

Page 13603

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 2             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a small

 3     correction on page 51, line 16.  The exhibit number is, I think, a bit

 4     too long.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Colonel, that wasn't my question.  You know your boss.  You know

 7     what you're allowed to do, what you're not allowed to do.  Looking at

 8     this now, would this have gotten you in trouble with General Tolimir,

 9     this request?  --

10        A.   Well, it says "Sector" here.  It could be that General Tolimir

11     was not there at the time and that I signed it for that reason.  I would

12     not be able to say for sure now, because up at the top it says

13     "Main Staff, VRS, Sector for Intelligence and Security Affairs and

14     Administration of Intelligence, for your information," et cetera.  It

15     could be that he wasn't there.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just for the record, the document number on

17     page 51, line 16, should be P2206.

18             Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Colonel, it was a simple question.  Would this request, had it

21     been known by General Tolimir, gotten you in trouble with

22     General Tolimir?  We all know what gets us in trouble with our bosses, or

23     our Judges, or our spouses.

24        A.   Yes, perhaps it would if it had been sent without his knowledge,

25     but it could also be that he was absent at the time and I sent it out

Page 13604

 1     myself.  Now, whether he got to know about this subsequently, I really

 2     couldn't say.

 3        Q.   Wouldn't General Tolimir have to know about your personal request

 4     to a minister to issue fake IDs to people you thought were on the

 5     indictment list?

 6        A.   Well, he should have.  That's how it should be.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's --

 8        A.   But I really cannot say, one way or another, for sure.  That's

 9     the way it should be, but I can't be certain now.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to an area that I know you've gone over with

11     before in the last trial, so it shouldn't take us too long.  And I'd like

12     to go to the exhibit.  It should be -- it's the duty officer note-book,

13     and we can give you the original so you can read it clearly in the

14     original.  It should be P01459, e-court page 41 in English and page 40 in

15     the B/C/S.

16             And as you'll remember from the last trial, you were shown this

17     duty officer note-book from the Zvornik Brigade, and we should get to the

18     parts that we're talking about.  And if you could -- we'll give you the

19     original book, which makes it a lot easier.  And you know and we all

20     know --

21        A.   14 July.

22        Q.   Yes.  What we have on the right side in the English is what we

23     call the teacher's edition, where we have put in some analysis.  Now, we

24     know, as do you, that the duty officer of the Zvornik Brigade, like all

25     duty officers, sometimes will take notes on information that comes in.

Page 13605

 1     That's his job.  And this Major Dragan Jokic was the duty officer on the

 2     14th of July.  And it's always difficult to tell in this rough book

 3     exactly what time a call came in, but we can see, if we look back in the

 4     book, references to some times, but the time doesn't really matter.

 5             Dragan Jokic wrote down that:

 6             "Colonel Salapura called and that Drago and Beara are to report

 7     to Golic."

 8             And just to put this in context, on the 14th of July there's

 9     significant evidence in this case that Colonel Beara was working with

10     Drago Nikolic, the security officer of the Zvornik Brigade, to transport

11     and murder, by firing squad, thousands of Muslim prisoners held in the

12     Zvornik area.  There's also indications that Major Golic was

13     co-ordinating that from Vlasenica by making sure their fuel was issued.

14             And on the 14th, according to the duty officer, you call and pass

15     on the message that Drago and Beara are to report to Golic.  So do you

16     recall this?  And if so, why on earth, Colonel, are you calling for Beara

17     and Drago Nikolic and having them call Golic in the middle of a genocide?

18        A.   I really don't know what was going on.  It's obvious that I was

19     just passing on a message.  And it says here not the Beara report to

20     Golic, but to stop at Golic's office.  That probably refers to Vlasenica.

21     It depends on the time.  It could have been at the time of breakfast or

22     lunchtime, and at that time Mamlic could have gone to Miletic, or called

23     and there was no one, and then I was the one who passed the message, or

24     perhaps a telegram was received at that time and I just passed the

25     telegram on.  This could have, perhaps, been a message.  I'm not managing

Page 13606

 1     to recall it, but I'm just thinking that's the only explanation I can

 2     think of.  I, myself, have no reason -- would have had no reason to call

 3     them directly.  It's a completely different service.  I could only have

 4     passed somebody else's message; for example, that I received a message at

 5     the command post, but it could have been a message from Tolimir or from

 6     the commander, although the commander's message would probably go through

 7     the staff.  No, I don't know about this, and I couldn't really explain it

 8     otherwise.  But it's just a message that was passed on, that's true.

 9        Q.   That's your answer, this is just a message, and you don't know

10     anything about what it was about?

11        A.   No, I don't know.  You can see from the contents that's how it

12     was in the original, that they should call, and it just didn't contain

13     any more.  Now, why they were supposed to call or to go somewhere, for

14     what purpose, I don't know.  I just would like to say that the way it's

15     written here doesn't necessarily mean they were to report to Golic,

16     himself, but they were perhaps just wanted in Vlasenica, they were

17     supposed to go see somebody there.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly speak into the

19     microphones, please.  Thank you.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 75 in English and 74 in the

21     B/C/S.

22        Q.   And, Colonel, it should be the next tab.  We can help you with

23     that, if you'll give it to us.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the usher, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 13607

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   And this is no longer on the 14th.  It's probably on the late

 3     night of the 15th, or early morning hours of the 16th.  And there's

 4     another message:

 5             "Drago and Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic are to report to

 6     Major Golic early in the morning."

 7             Do you have any knowledge about that?

 8        A.   No --

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- absolutely nothing.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 79 in the English and page 78 in

12     the B/C/S, and that should be the next tab for you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's also from this diary?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   And what I want to direct your attention to is the entry by

16     Milorad Trbic.  Do you know who Milorad Trbic was of the Zvornik Brigade?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   All right.  He writes down that at:

19             "0855, Golic asked Popovic to call him, and said that he can

20     forget what he'd asked for and what he wrote about.  He knows what he's

21     supposed to do according to the agreed procedure (boss from

22     Panorama 01)."

23             Tell us who Panorama 01 is.

24        A.   I believe there is a hotel called Panorama, as far as I remember,

25     near Vlasenica.

Page 13608

 1        Q.   Do you recall the code-name of --

 2        A.   Now, what "Panorama 01" is, I don't know.

 3        Q.   Do you recall the code-name of the Main Staff, and "01" being

 4     that of the commander, being the relevant code-name at the time?

 5        A.   That code was usually given to the commander, "01."

 6        Q.   How about Panorama; do you recall that was the code-name in place

 7     in July 1995?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I know there is a Hotel Panorama.

 9        Q.   All right.  We'll refer to the bulk of the other evidence on

10     that.  And it says:

11             "Message conveyed to Popovic at 9.10."

12             And then at the bottom of the page, we see:

13             "Beara to call Panorama at 155."

14             Do you remember whose extension 155 was at the Crna Rijeka

15     Main Staff?

16        A.   I don't know.  I can't remember anymore.

17        Q.   Would it help you if I said that was Milovanovic's extension that

18     was being used by Miletic at the time and rang in the operations room?

19        A.   Yes, operations room, could be.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to English, 85; B/C/S, 84.

21     It should be the next tab in the book and the last entry I'll ask you

22     about.

23        Q.   And we see here, on the 16th of July, that someone called in, and

24     the duty officer, again Trbic, noted down that:

25             "At 1400 hours, Popovic requested a bus with a full tank and 500

Page 13609

 1     litres of D2."

 2             D2 is diesel fuel; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, diesel.

 4        Q.   And:

 5             "... the Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed."

 6             Do you remember which unit Zlatar was the code-name for?

 7        A.   I don't know.  That's an internal code-name within the

 8     Drina Corps for some brigades or units, but I don't know these things.

 9        Q.   Would you recall that that is -- Zlatar was the code-name for the

10     Drina Corps at the time?

11        A.   No, I never used it in my communications.

12        Q.   You were on duty on the 16th of July, and, sir, there's

13     significant evidence in this case that at this time Popovic was

14     organising the transportation from the Branjevo -- or from this school at

15     Pilica to the Branjevo Farm, where Erdemovic and the 10th Sabotage Unit

16     were summarily executing over a thousand men, and there's documents

17     showing that Popovic received that fuel, going to Pilica.  There's

18     evidence in this case, and it shows Golic involved, it shows Popovic

19     involved, it shows Beara involved.  And so if we go back to your notation

20     at 14 July, where you are telling Beara and Drago to report to Golic,

21     this suggests you are involved, sir.

22             Having looked at all this material, tell us --

23        A.   No, I just received a message about which I knew nothing.  I

24     don't know who it came from.  It could have come from -- I don't remember

25     now from whom it was received.  It must have been during lunchtime, when

Page 13610

 1     there was no one around, when I was in the dining hall alone.  And during

 2     meal times, Warrant Officer Nedeljkovic and both of my IT men, they all

 3     went out for lunch, and I was the only one who stayed there.  And it was

 4     the only time that message could have come, and I forwarded it.  I did

 5     not pass on other messages.  That would normally have been done by Mamlic

 6     or someone else.

 7        Q.   You were in Nova Kasaba on the 13th.  You were with Mladic on the

 8     13th.  You were at Crna Rijeka on the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, the 16th

 9     and the 17th; correct?

10        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  On the 14th, I also went to see a doctor, and on

11     the 17th as well, and came back.

12        Q.   What was General Tolimir's nickname?

13        A.   Nickname?  Apart from "Zdravko" and "Tolimir," I believe the

14     commander called him "Tolja."  I don't know of any other nicknames.

15        Q.   We heard over and over here that some people were able to call

16     him "Toso."

17        A.   Yes, right.  "Toso" is short for "Tolimir," but that nickname

18     would have been used by the commander and the superior officers --

19        Q.   And Miletic, was he sometimes called "Mico"?

20        A.   General Milovanovic called him "Mico," as far as I heard.  I

21     never called him "Mico."

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to P394.  394B, please.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast because it's under

24     seal, I'm informed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 13611

 1        Q.   Now, this will come up on the screen, but I can set the scene.

 2             This is one of these intercepts from the Bosnian Army.  This is

 3     dated 16 July at 10 hours.  This was the day that the

 4     10th Sabotage Detachment was murdering people at the Branjevo Farm, and

 5     the participants are noted as Mico and Toso.  And Toso says:

 6             "I sent you, you know what, over there via Uran, and you send it

 7     to me via Uran, because this one is not secure."

 8             Do you remember what "Uran" stood for back then?

 9        A.   I don't know.  It's the first I hear of it, Uran.  It must be

10     that certain code-names were assigned during the operation, and I'm

11     telling you, I never participated either in the planning or any of the

12     tasks, nor did I have any of these code-names or call-names or

13     call-signs.  I didn't know what they meant.  It's a code-name for

14     something.  Now, for what, I don't know.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe we have a

17     little problem with the electronic courtroom, because the versions in

18     English and the Serbian are not consistent.  It's a completely different

19     intercept, as far as I can see.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, check that, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry.  As we remember the nature of these

23     reports, we have to go --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see "Mico" and "Toso."

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 13612

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I see it.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 3        Q.   Now, if this is between Miletic and Tolimir, and we have a

 4     document which I may be able to show later, if not, that is -- like you

 5     say, is the attack plan for Srebrenica, and it says "Uran" is the

 6     code-name for the Drina Corps forward command post, which on the 16th was

 7     at a place called Krivace, do you remember that?

 8        A.   Near Krivace?  No.

 9        Q.   You don't remember the Drina Corps forward command post for the

10     Zepa attack?

11        A.   No, I've never been there and I don't know where their command

12     post was.

13        Q.   Okay.  Maybe you can help us.  When Tolimir says:

14             "Send it to me via Uran, via the Drina Corps Command IKM, because

15     this one is not secure," what's he referring to?  What isn't secure?

16        A.   Maybe he meant that the line was not secure, that it's an open

17     communication, probably a radio-relay one.

18        Q.   All right.  And then Miletic says, if "Mico" is Miletic:

19             "All right."

20             And then Tolimir says:

21             "And tell Pepo."

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you know who that would have been?

24        A.   That's me.

25        Q.   And then M says:  "Yes.

Page 13613

 1             Toso says:

 2             "If, that I received what he sent me, and if he wants to send me

 3     something, he can call Uran on the same line that you are communicating

 4     with Uran, and he can relay the telegram for me through it, and you know

 5     my call sign."

 6             And M says:

 7             "Uh-huh, okay.  Did Uran asked you over this, I mean that line

 8     regarding some information check?"

 9             And then Toso says:  "About?"

10             And they go on a bit.  I won't read all of it.  And then Tolimir

11     says:

12             "He was supposed to send them this morning.  He received it 20

13     minutes ago."

14             M says:

15             "I'm going to call him and check why he didn't send it yet."

16             Tolimir says:

17             "Call him, and tell Pepo and my" something, "that they can send

18     me telegrams this way and I can send it to them."

19             And then they say:  "Good."

20             "Goodbye."

21             And then the operator hears:

22             "Five minutes later, Mico called Jevdo on this frequency ... and

23     asked about two telegrams he was supposed to forward him."

24             They agreed that Jevdo was going to send them immediately.  So

25     this is involving you sending secure information to Tolimir, isn't it, on

Page 13614

 1     the 16th of July?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a moment ago this

 6     record -- this document was not read correctly.  It says "Pepo and my" or

 7     "their people," because if I say, Tell Pepo and these men of his, it

 8     should be read correctly for the record.  I would like to see the page

 9     back again.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, we should have the page back.

11             We see in the English translation that there was a doubt.  If the

12     interpreters could read and interpret it in the correct way, and,

13     therefore, I think Mr. McCloskey left this word out.

14             Mr. McCloskey.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says "those men of mine."

16             Why don't you tell them, Aleksandar?  You know English.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the general is correct.  The interpreter

19     thought it might have said "men."  But they know their own expressions

20     better than our interpreters do, so I'll take their word for it.

21        Q.   Now, "Jevdo" on this second page, did you know the Drina Corps

22     coms fellow Jevdjevic?

23        A.   Just a moment.  Let me see.  Oh, Jevdjo, Jevdjo.  I don't know

24     who that is.  Maybe Jevdjevic.  I don't know who he was referring to.

25     Was there anyone else with a similar nickname?  This is most probably an

Page 13615

 1     abbreviated surname, maybe also first name.  It may have been Jevdjevic.

 2        Q.   And who was Jevdjevic?

 3        A.   Communications man.

 4        Q.   For who?

 5        A.   He was a communications officer.  He was part of the

 6     Communications Regiment of the Main Staff.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So you've had a chance to look at this, and you've told us

 8     what it's about.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you tell us any more about what -- what kind of information

11     were you passing on to General Tolimir?

12        A.   I would not be able to tell you, with any degree of certainty,

13     what it was about.  It must have been something about the reasons why I

14     came to see General Mladic.  It could have been only that that I could

15     convey.  And I remember having been told that any communications with him

16     should go via the Rogatica Brigade, and this shows that it must have been

17     done via some other location, maybe the forward command post, but I

18     cannot say this with any degree of certainty.  A telegram was sent,

19     because he didn't even know that I was there before that moment.

20        Q.   So do you stand by that this is an authentic intercept?

21        A.   Well, I cannot say for certain, yes, this is authentic, but it

22     seems logical.  This kind of conversation seems logical, but I cannot

23     claim that.  I wasn't the one intercepting the conversation, you see.

24        Q.   It's logical for the chief of intel and security to be

25     communicating with his chief of intel and telling him how to best get

Page 13616

 1     confidential information to him?  Nothing unusual about that, I take it.

 2        A.   No, there would be no reason for that.  If this would be -- go

 3     along a certain line, and if he knew what the nods were -- I guess if he

 4     knew that this was an open line, he was just warning that documents

 5     should not be sent that way, but via the forward command post instead.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I have one more document that's on

 7     this same subject, and then I'll be through, Mr. President.  So I don't

 8     know if people can go another couple of minutes, or I can do it after --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We're already beyond the six hours.  How many

10     minutes do you need with this document?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should just be a couple, just a few.  It's

12     just --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Shall we finish with that before the break?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would like to, if we could.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It could speed up the proceedings.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Could we have 65 ter -- 65 ter 4052, D49.

17     Thank you to that.

18        Q.   And, sir, this is -- all we have is a handwritten document, and

19     it's -- as we can see, it's from the Command of the Drina Corps, the

20     forward command post at Krivace.  This is the next day from the

21     intercept.  It's 17 July, and it's entitled "A radio conversation with

22     Avdo Palic," and it's under the name of Zdravko Tolimir.

23             Do you recognise the handwriting at all?  --

24        A.   No.  No, this handwriting --

25        Q.   So we see here that -- does it appear to you that General Tolimir

Page 13617

 1     is communicating from the forward command post at Krivace, or at least

 2     he's sending his communications out from that area?

 3        A.   The command -- yes, it says here "the Command of the Drina Corps,

 4     Forward Command Post Krivace."

 5        Q.   So do you agree that this appears that he would be sending his

 6     communications out from that -- on this day, anyway, he would send out

 7     this information from Krivace?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Colonel.

10             I have nothing further, Mr. President.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, this was sent, yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             We must have the second break now.

14             Mr. Gajic, before we break, you have the floor.

15             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, here in the

16     transcript, on page 68, line 3, "65 ter 4052, D49," D49 is a completely

17     different document.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is confirmed by the Registrar.  But in the

19     list of documents we received from the Prosecution, the last update, it

20     is said that this should be the same one.  I propose this should be

21     checked during the break.

22             Thank you very much.  We adjourn, and resume at 20 minutes past

23     6.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 5.53 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 6.23 p.m.

Page 13618

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, before we adjourned, we had a

 2     discussion about a number of a certain document.  I was told that a

 3     mistake occurred in that respect.  Could you clarify that for the record?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  It should have been

 5     65 ter 4052, and it's not D -- ignore the "D."  It should be 65 ter 4052,

 6     so I guess it needs a number.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And did you tender it?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Apparently, I didn't, and I should.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, it will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P2207, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             Now it's the turn of Mr. Tolimir to put questions to you, sir,

13     during his cross-examination.

14             Mr. Tolimir, I have noted that your estimate for

15     cross-examination of this witness is eight hours.  The Prosecution has

16     used a little bit more than six hours.

17             You will recall that our fellow Judge, Judge Mindua, referred you

18     to the practice of other Chambers with respect to the use of time to be

19     used for cross-examination.  That was on the 14th of April.  It's on

20     page 12789 of the transcript.  As you will recall, Judge Mindua gave a

21     short overview of the way other Chambers deal with this issue in this

22     respect.

23             In most cases, the time for examination-in-chief and for

24     cross-examination of viva voce witnesses has been kept in balance.

25     Therefore, I would like to remind you, Mr. Tolimir, that while we will

Page 13619

 1     not limit your cross-examination from the outset, as this is a very

 2     relevant witness, we will, however, pay close attention to whether you

 3     use your time with this witness efficiently by focusing on only relevant

 4     issues related to the charges against you.  Please keep that in mind.

 5             Now you may commence your cross-examination.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             Once again, I want to greet everyone in the courtroom, including

 8     Mr. Salapura.  I would like to thank him for coming here.  I'm pleased to

 9     see him, and I would like to ask him for a favour.

10             After I have said something, he should check the screen, and when

11     he sees that everything is entered, then, and only then, start answering,

12     because otherwise we'd be overlapping and it will not be reflected in the

13     transcript.  And it's very important to have everything recorded in the

14     transcript.  So at the end of my question, I will say, Thank you.  Then

15     you wait for a few seconds, and then provide your answer.  Thank you.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] So, please, Mr. Salapura, the Prosecutor was

18     asking you about Uran.  On page 67, line 10, the Prosecutor asked you

19     whether it was logical for Tolimir to be asking his subordinates not to

20     send telegrams via open line, and you said, Yes.  Now, tell me, was there

21     anything in the telegrams that can be described as criminal or do they

22     have, as their contents, only elements that refer to combat activities?

23        A.   The telegrams that we were receiving?  Are you referring to those

24     telegrams that we were receiving during the period when I was there at

25     the command post?

Page 13620

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I was referring to telegrams that I was sending to

 2     you or the ones you were sending to me via this station, Uran, that's at

 3     the Command of the Drina Corps and which I would get in touch with, and

 4     you can tell us whether the forward command post of the Drina Corps,

 5     whether they could have a protected communication channel with

 6     Main Staff?

 7        A.   I don't think there were many such telegrams; maybe one or two

 8     only that were received at the command post and that you had sent.  As

 9     far as I remember, they were sent very seldom.  From me, I think only one

10     telegram was sent to you, and it involved a summary of the information I

11     had presented to the commander so that you would also be made aware about

12     the Croatian offensive against the VRS.  And it is normal -- it's

13     obligatory to use protected communication.  That was a rule whenever

14     there was combat activity going on, if possible.  If it was not possible,

15     we would be normally using a TKT code book for the purpose of protecting

16     information for the short period of the duration of combat activities.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salapura.  Since you were absent, on sick leave,

18     during that period, tell me, do you know whether there was a phone line

19     that had a code-name, Uran, and which could be used by the corps

20     commander to send open messages, verbal messages, and then communication

21     would send those to the addressee, and in such a way the communications

22     would be protected?

23        A.   I cannot remember this code-name Uran.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have any memory concerning a phone that can

25     receive a verbal message, and then that the operator who's there could

Page 13621

 1     type this as a -- into a written message and then forward it to the

 2     addressee?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Yes, that was possible.  You know well that we had two phones

 4     which also had operators/encoders, and they would scramble the direct

 5     open type of information and send it encoded.  We had those as part of

 6     our service.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Our sector, our administration, could we request for

 8     such protection in relation to conversations which, as its topic, had

 9     date on units and activities?

10        A.   Most of our information was encoded, was protected.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In this telegram, it is stated:

12             "Mico, tell Pepo and my people."

13             In a conversation, when you say "Pepo," does that also involve

14     the institution that Pepo is at the head of?

15        A.   I did not say this to the Prosecutor, but that was the practice

16     that you were using.  I wasn't sure about that, but thank you for opening

17     this topic.  For instance, in the telegram, when it is stated that

18     somebody should go and talk to Pajo or report to Pajo, that does not

19     necessarily mean to Pajo, himself, but to his location in Vlasenica.  Or

20     when you say, "Cedo," that may mean just something that helps you with

21     the location because that person is at that location.  So this wasn't

22     necessarily something that referred to myself, personally, but to the

23     administration.  That was the practice that you were using.  That wasn't

24     my practice.  I had different practices in that respect, but --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

Page 13622

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It may be a translation issue, but they're both

 2     now referring to what was an intercept as a telegram, and there's no

 3     reference to the 65 ter number.  So if we don't correct that, it's going

 4     to lead to a problem in the record, because I know they're talking about

 5     the intercept that we just talked about with Pepo and Mico.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you clarify that with the

 7     witness?  Are you referring to an intercept?

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Salapura, you were shown a text of an intercept.  I don't

10     know anything about it, of course.  And in that intercept, there is a

11     quotation of my words to Mico.  Apparently, I said, Tell Pepo to ... and

12     so on.  Does that "Pepo" necessarily refer to the person or it can also

13     refer to the location?

14        A.   Well, it was obviously something that involved an open telephone

15     or radio communication channel, and you were referring to the

16     administration.  And I'm saying this on the basis of your custom of the

17     way -- how you expressed yourself throughout the war.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Salapura.

19             I would like to have P2206 on the screen.  It's the document

20     that's dated 16th of January, 1996.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this is coming up, I would like to make a

22     correction for the record.  It was recorded wrongly in page 51, line 9.

23     It should read "65 ter 7360," instead of "7360" [sic].

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Tolimir, please.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 13623

 1        Q.   Mr. Salapura, the Prosecutor --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment, please.  It's wrongly recorded

 3     again.  I said:  "'65 ter 7360' instead of '3760.'"  Thank you very much.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Salapura, you can see the document that was shown to you also

 7     by the Prosecutor?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You know the content, so this is my question:  In this document,

10     were you trying to cover up or hide anything from the law enforcement

11     organs or were you trying to make sure that people know that they were

12     under surveillance, maybe?

13        A.   No, no.  The problem -- based on the date, 16th of January, I can

14     now say here in this courtroom that since maybe 2001, certain problems

15     with remembering numbers and dates, I was thinking about the 16th, and in

16     my head it's turned into March.  I had a mild stroke, and I am having

17     problems because of that.  And whenever people are asking me about dates

18     and times, in other words, information, including numbers, I'm having

19     problems.  But, yes, this telegram was sent openly to the Ministry of the

20     Interior, but I believed -- I thought it was not sent there.  I insisted

21     that it should be sent directly to Bijeljina.  However, it seems that

22     they sent it to the Ministry of the Interior.  They sent an official

23     request.  This was not sent for the purpose of hiding anything.  It had a

24     completely different purpose.

25             These soldiers, one of them was a Muslim, the others were Croats,

Page 13624

 1     some of them.  There were some Serbs as well, but I don't know how many.

 2     The total number is eight, as we can see here.

 3             I really believed this was something that happened at a later

 4     date, but now I can see the date, and I really thought about it for a

 5     long time.  This was sent because the persons in question had residence

 6     in Bijeljina.  People from Bijeljina didn't know them because they were

 7     not from Bijeljina.  And while all this was going on, the idea was to

 8     make sure that they do not get exposed to problems that maybe their

 9     neighbours would cause or something like that.  It was easy to find them

10     later on.  Journalists found them very soon.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us if you were entrusted by the

12     commander of the Main Staff to secure personal ID cards for persons who

13     were in the units, the reconnaissance and sabotage units, with other

14     names when they are going to alien territory, to provide them with names,

15     and that you had addressed the Ministry of Interior several times on this

16     topic?

17        A.   Yes, they did have a task to issue us with ID documents, but

18     I think that this is not such a case.  I think that this was issued for a

19     different purpose.

20        Q.   Thank you.  This is why I asked you.  Was any crime concealed

21     here?  Did you provide their actual names when you sought out the names

22     for them?

23        A.   Yes, their actual names and particulars were provided.  Secondly,

24     when they were going to execute a task, then they would receive a

25     completely different type of identification documents.

Page 13625

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Was this immediately after the signing of the

 2     Dayton Accords, before even the 120 days had passed, which was the

 3     dead-line for the separation of the forces after the signing of the

 4     agreement?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Well, I don't know exactly when the 120 days were expiring.  The

 6     Dayton Accords were signed in November; is that right?  Right.  Well, I

 7     don't know whether that was 120 days or not.  Evidently, it wasn't.  It

 8     wasn't yet six months.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salapura.  You were asked here a number of times

10     if you had sent personal letters to the minister of foreign affairs, in

11     the same way that you have here addressed the minister of the interior.

12     Can you please answer this question:  Were you authorised by the

13     commander and by the president of the republic to provide information of

14     interest for the negotiations on the Contact Group to the foreign

15     minister, who was the chief of that delegation that was in charge of

16     contacts with international representatives who were mediating in the

17     drafting of a peace agreement?

18        A.   Yes.  I didn't explain that.  I felt that there was no need to

19     explain that, because I don't see anything controversial there.  I did

20     have that authority, because my sector was dealing not only with the

21     gathering of military intelligence, but also of political intelligence,

22     diplomatic and other types of intelligence or data, so that spectre was

23     also there -- that spectrum was also there.  So there were tasks which

24     were not of interest either to the commander of the Main Staff or to the

25     chief of the sector, but which were exclusively of interest to the

Page 13626

 1     ministers of foreign affairs, or the interior, or some other ministry.

 2     We acquired information that could be of interest to the Ministry of

 3     Trade, or some other ministries, or for the president of

 4     Republika Srpska.  So I was able to provide such information directly,

 5     and I did.  And this was received by the chief of the sector,

 6     Mr. Tolimir, and it was also received by the commander if it was of

 7     interest to him.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salapura.  You were asked here about whether you

 9     interrogated prisoners of war that you saw on the playground?  Thank you.

10        A.   I never interrogated a single prisoner of war throughout the

11     entire war.  I myself, personally, I never did that.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             I would now like to have 00672 shown to the witness now.  This is

14     intelligence support to the armed forces.  This is a rule from 1987.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And while we're waiting for this rule to appear on the screen,

17     can you please tell us this:  In the Army of Republika Srpska, did we use

18     the rules from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes, because we didn't have rules of our own.  It wasn't only us

20     who used it.  The others used it too; the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina;

21     the Croatian Army, too, until they drafted their own rules.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now show page 67 of the

23     document now, please, so that we can see the section that pertains to

24     prisoners of wars.  This is Article 198, page 67.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no 198.  There is 158.

Page 13627

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 198, the interrogation of prisoners

 2     of war.

 3             Can the e-court please show --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that's not on page 67.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I apologise.  It's on page 74.

 6     Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page in English, Mr. Tolimir?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 59 in the English.  Thank

 9     you, Mr. President.

10             Thank you.  And we are now looking at the paragraph 198, which

11     states:

12             "Intelligence organs in commands and staff question prisoners of

13     war and defectors for the purpose of gathering intelligence, through

14     organs of certain specialty that are set up especially for that purpose."

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   My question is:  If the Drina Corps were to capture or have

17     prisoners and defectors, would the Main Staff then have to interrogate

18     them, or somebody from the Main Staff, or would this be done by the organ

19     that had captured them and in whose corps they happened to be, or would

20     this be done by the intelligence organ of the relevant corps?  Thank you.

21        A.   This would, of course, be done by the intelligence organ of the

22     corps, starting from the level of battalion up, depending on the

23     importance of the person and the data that that person would be able to

24     offer.  Perhaps the security organ would also participate if they felt

25     that it was an interrogation of interest, or some other organ, perhaps if

Page 13628

 1     it was a question of the police or some kind of special service or

 2     logistics, if it was believed that the person had intelligence data that

 3     was relevant for those services.  Only exceptionally would somebody

 4     participate from the Main Staff.  I actually never interrogated anyone.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And since we are looking at this rule, the

 6     intelligence support for the armed forces, and in view of the fact that

 7     you were the most qualified and the most highly-trained person to be able

 8     to interpret these documents and rules, I would kindly ask you to tell

 9     the Trial Chamber what is intelligence support of the armed forces.  What

10     does that term mean?

11             And until then, can we look at page 12, please.  This is page 9

12     in the English.  Thank you, Aleksandar.

13             We're now looking at paragraph 2 or Article 2 of the general

14     provisions, and it states:

15             "Intelligence support in the armed forces is a part of the

16     overall measures, procedures and activities aimed at preparing the

17     society for all people's defence and social self-protection ..."

18             And so on and so forth.

19             My question is:  All our actions and activities, were they all a

20     part of those overall general measures undertaken by a society, such as

21     Republika Srpska, and the Army of Republika Srpska, or its armed

22     organisation, in order to provide support for the armed forces?  Are they

23     just measures and actions and activities?

24        A.   Well, I've already described what intelligence support means when

25     the Prosecutor, Mr. McCloskey, asked me to describe my work, and I

Page 13629

 1     actually did refer to the elements precisely from this Article 2.  Yes,

 2     of course.  And what you're asking also is right.  It means the

 3     collection of all kinds of information about the enemy, combat actions,

 4     the terrain, everything in the area on the other side of the front-line,

 5     and, of course, the overall measures and information that is of general

 6     interest for the society, for the state, or Republika Srpska

 7     specifically, that we had from all the other spheres that could possibly

 8     provide certain input and would be conducive to completing the war and

 9     implementing the goals and achieving successes.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salapura.  Can you please tell us whether

11     intelligence support is part of the command staff function, primarily?

12        A.   Yes, absolutely.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

14             Let us now look at -- I deliberately did not want to go into

15     this, but let us look at Article 4 which states that -- can we please

16     scroll this up so you can see Article 4.  This is the following page in

17     the English and the last page in the Serbian.

18             It states:

19             "Intelligence support is part of the command and staff function.

20     The content of intelligence support is a constant process, whose

21     intensity varies and which includes the following ..."

22             And now they list, on the following pages, what all of that

23     implies.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   My question is this:  Did the staffs and commands exclusively

Page 13630

 1     operate pursuant to the rules as they are described in this article of

 2     the rules for the intelligence support of the armed forces?

 3        A.   Yes, in some places, these rules were adhered to.  In some

 4     places, not, because in some organs, for example, the

 5     Sarajevo Romanija Corps, we didn't have the full strength, so these

 6     duties were unassigned.  For example, sometimes we would assign a certain

 7     section or person to be carrying out this intelligence function.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Please, you were asked by the Prosecutor, in the

 9     summary, when you saw Tolimir, and you said, We were together at a

10     seminar in Knin.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber now if we belong

11     to the same military organisation at that time and the same military

12     district, you and I?

13        A.   Up until then, we did not.  But after that time -- actually,

14     immediately prior to that seminar, yes, we did.  Before that, we did not.

15     You were in part of the military naval district VPO, and this was in

16     Croatia.  You were part of the VPO, and then towards the end -- at the

17     end, yes, yes, and when the negotiations were over, then this division

18     became part of the 5th Military District at the time.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that then, when we saw each other,

20     both of us were in different military districts -- we were both in the

21     2nd Military District?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, we were both in

24     the 2nd military district.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 13631

 1        Q.   In his summary, the Prosecutor asked you whether you had in

 2     Vukovar, and you said, No, I was in Zagreb, and I was performing such and

 3     such duties.  Do you recall that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Can you now, please, please, tell the Trial Chamber where Vukovar

 6     and Zagreb were separate military districts, and could you have had any

 7     powers at all in Vukovar, and the other way around, could anyone from

 8     Vukovar have any powers in relation to units of the 5th Corps which were

 9     in Zagreb?  Thank you.

10        A.   No, absolutely not.  Vukovar was in the 1st Military District,

11     the Belgrade Military District, and the 5th Military District could not

12     have any powers there.  The border was just like the state border, and it

13     applied in context -- in the context of any military activities.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell us when and why you had to be

15     transferred, with your command, to Sarajevo from the

16     Zagreb 5th Military District?  Thank you.

17        A.   First of all, the command was blocked, the one in Zagreb, and for

18     a long time it was completely isolated, with all of its communications

19     cut off.  And every evening, there was firing at that facility, at the

20     building, by the Croatian forces and the MUP and the ZNG, so we were

21     constantly exposed to fire.  Then an agreement was reached about pulling

22     the men out of Zagreb, and this was carried out from Slunj.  This was

23     already the end of the war in Croatia, when an agreement was already

24     reached on a truce, and then the command was transferred from there to

25     Kosara.  And this is where it was renamed as the 2nd Military District.

Page 13632

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell us --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are at the end of today's

 3     hearing.  We should continue tomorrow.

 4             But tell me, are you going to use this document we have on the

 5     screen during your further cross-examination?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  I was just about

 7     to ask what the area of responsibility is, as described in Article 5,

 8     that was under the jurisdiction of Mr. Salapura, to tell us about that

 9     zone.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that the intelligence

11     jurisdiction?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, briefly, if I may be allowed,

14     I can answer that question.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have already indicated we have to adjourn for

16     the day.

17             I just want to know if you're tendering this document now or if

18     you are going to use it tomorrow any further.

19             Okay, I see you are nodding.  We don't have to discuss anything

20     else.

21             We adjourn for the day.

22             I have to remind you, sir, that you are not permitted to have

23     conversation about the content of your testimony with either party during

24     the break.

25             We adjourn, and resume tomorrow, in the afternoon, in

Page 13633

 1     Courtroom II, I think, at 2.15.  We adjourn.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of May,

 5                           2011, at 2.15 p.m.