1 Wednesday, 18 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 If there are no procedural matters, the witness should be brought
7 in, please.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Welcome back to the
10 courtroom. I have to remind that you the affirmation to tell the truth
11 you made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.
12 Mr. McCloskey is continuing his examination-in-chief.
13 Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good
15 morning everybody.
16 WITNESS: MANOJLO MILOVANOVIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
19 Q. General, could we have that -- it may still be up there --
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. Morning. 7937 on the organisation chart. And, General, let me
22 get you the Serbian version again so you can look at that.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the court usher, yes,
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. I see you've got your magnifying glass. It's a good idea. I
2 just want to ask you about a couple of things. First of all, under
3 General Tolimir's sector, we note that you -- that we have on this box,
4 under Colonel Beara, is a Major Pecanac. And this is for July of 1995.
5 Is that your recollection that -- where he was? We, I think, heard that
6 he ... different -- different places for Major Pecanac, and I just
7 wondered how good your recollection is, where he was in July 1995.
8 A. First of all, yesterday, during the discussions about the
9 security and intelligence sector, I failed to mention two items. The
10 intelligence administration had a body of analysts within its
11 composition. The 410th Intelligence Centre that was gathering
12 information, analysing them, prioritising them, and determining who
13 within the system of command needs to be informed about the data
14 gathered. This centre was located within the Banja Luka garrison, and it
15 was headed by Colonel Pero Jakovljevic.
16 The security administration under Colonel Beara also had a body
17 that was in charge of analytics, analytics of information that they were
18 preventing from leaking. It was called KOG, counter-intelligence group,
19 headed by Lieutenant-Colonel Cedo Knezevic. I believe it was also
20 located in Banja Luka, although I'm not sure about that.
21 Q. Thank you. And my question about Pecanac, how sure are you are
22 that he was there in the security sector as you've got him marked in your
24 A. Dragomir Pecanac was part of a 12-member group that included
25 myself on the 11th of May, at the time when the Staff was established. I
1 know that he was always around General Mladic. I initially believed that
2 he was chief of his security detail, but later Mr. Puhalo showed up, and
3 he was on that duty, but Pecanac remained there and wherever Mladic would
4 go, Pecanac would go along. When Mladic would be going abroad for
5 negotiations to Geneva, London and God knows where else, he would not
6 take Pecanac but he would take instead my chief of -- or my head of
7 security, Todic. I believe that it was because my guy was better
8 looking, so if you're going abroad you come up with something like that.
9 I know that Pecanac was part of the security administration, and
10 throughout the war, up until I went to the western front, Pecanac was
11 always with Mladic. He did have some vices and problems. On one
12 occasion, he asked General Tolimir to relieve him of duty he had and to
13 put him as -- to appoint him as the Chief of Staff in the protection
14 regiment. Tolimir initially didn't want to do it, but in the end, it
15 took place, but then he held that duty for maybe just a month and then
16 returned back to the security administration.
17 As far as I know, in July 1995, or, rather, throughout 1995,
18 Pecanac was predominantly with Mladic. Mladic and I parted under not
19 best of terms. On the 27th of April, 1997, I went to Banja Luka. We
20 were, at that time, put at the disposal of the VRS. In other words, we
21 were relieved of our duties at the time. Later on, Pecanac --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies of the interpreter.
23 A. General Mladic got in touch with me, and we became friends again
24 although there was not a real quarrel between us. I was invited to his
25 son's marriage on 6th of --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 A. -- June 1997.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and I just want to stay on
5 this particular subject and I understand Pecanac spent time with Mladic.
6 But what is your best recollection on what unit, sector, administration,
7 or whatever, Pecanac was part of? You know, in the formal sense, if he
8 was, in July of 1995? We've -- you've -- we see him here in the sector
9 for intel and security and I need to know if that is correct to the best
10 of your recollection or not. In which case, we'll move him out.
11 A. It is correct. Formally he was within the
12 security administration.
13 Q. And do you know if -- would that apply for August, September,
14 October of 1995 as well?
15 A. I don't know whether it would apply for the months you just
16 mentioned, but I do know that Pecanac was, throughout that period, still
17 together with General Mladic.
18 Q. Okay. And I don't want to go over the rest of the boxes, but I
19 do want to -- have you had a chance to look at these boxes and confirm
20 your recollection that the people in them and the placement of them in
21 this chart is correct?
22 A. Just a moment. Let me collect my thoughts.
23 Q. And, of course, we see all the corps as on other -- some other
24 units at the bottom, so that my question would apply to those as well.
25 A. There, at the bottom of the chart, that's okay. I've checked
1 that. I've made all the corrections. There were just some staff units
2 that were not put -- staff units that were not put in and air defence.
3 But the bottom part of this scheme, organigram, as you call it, according
4 to me, everything is correct. But on the first document provided by you,
5 I put a question mark next to Lieutenant Pelemis's name. I did not know
6 that, at the time he was the commander of the sabotage detachment.
7 Q. All right. And we see -- you'll see up in the right-hand corner,
8 there's the administration for air force and air defence. And this,
9 General, you may recall, is the -- this, you recently revised in the last
10 few months or days with Mr. Blaszczyk. So just take a good, careful look
11 at it, so if we know if -- if you stand by it?
12 A. It's the administration for air force and air defence. It was
13 headed by General Jovo Maric, yes, that's correct. However, in the
14 period since my departure for the western front, in other words, 29th of
15 May, 1995, and up until the end, General Jovo Maric was member of the
16 staff with me. He was my deputy in the west, and he spent this entire
17 period together with me. He died in a traffic accident in 1996, after
18 the war, and he was replaced by Colonel Radoslav Pandzic, I can see that
19 name here as well. There were not that many people in that
20 administration. For a while, there was Lieutenant-Colonel and then later
21 General, Miletic, but I took him into the staff, and in his stead
22 Lieutenant-Colonel Niko Dzajo [phoen], a rocket man came but since that
23 administration wasn't very busy because the Main Staff would go through
24 the command of the air force in -- in all the context that had had to do
25 with air force, and they were mainly in charge of aeroplane guidance and
1 we took this job also from there and put him in the position of the
2 3rd Petrovac Brigade. So there were three people who were part of the
3 administration, Maric, Pandzic and the third man.
4 Q. And now as you look at this document, does it look correct to
6 A. Yes. Even during the proofing, I told you that the segment
7 related to the administration for air force and air defence was done
8 properly here on the chart.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence at this time,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter document 7397 shall be
14 assigned exhibit number P2226. Thank you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
16 Q. Now --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This be a convenient time to raise the question
18 what about the other chart we have seen earlier in this trial? We -- you
19 promised yesterday that we would receive a hard copy of that.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And I think now is a good
21 time, since we've finished with this one, that you -- you get the other
22 one so you can compare them and things. I just wanted to go one at a
23 time, and so we had provided that to the -- to the Registrar.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that is 7295, for the record, the one you're
1 now just getting in hard copy.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you tendered this already. I would just like
3 to know which -- on which basis you made the corrections in comparison to
4 the last one we have seen.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was the testimony, as he was going through it
6 during his testimony. He made a few changes from what he had originally
7 said, and so we went through the testimony and made the changes
8 reflecting that we saw on the testimony.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means you are referring now to the witness
10 Salapura, or was it ...
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness Obradovic, yes, I forgot.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: So had I --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is correct.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will be received as well.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7259 shall be
18 assigned exhibit number P2227. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
22 Q. General, do you recall a New Year's celebration with
23 General Mladic? I believe it was from 1995 to 1996, and there was a
24 video of it?
25 A. Could have been only 1996. The New Year 1995 I was in Drvar. I
1 don't think it was even the New Year's reception because that year I was
2 in Gradiska.
3 Q. All right, I will play a bit of that to see what you can tell us
4 about it. And I'll just ask you one or two questions.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, this is a clip that we have
6 taken from P1029; but because it's a targeted clip to save time we have
7 given it another number, 65 ter 7388. And, of course, the other one is
8 already in evidence. And to save a bit of further time, I'm just going
9 to take a clip, a clip of the clip, to ask the General about. So if we
10 could start this, Ms. Stewart can handle this at 18.16.00, and we'll play
11 that for a short time, and it should be subtitled and we will have a
12 transcript provided to you as well. But this is fundamentally subtitled
13 for this particular purpose. I hope.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 "[VOICEOVER]: I think that the credit for what we have today goes
16 to the Serbian People as a whole and particularly to the Serbs west of
17 the Drina river" --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should stop for a moment. I was told this was
19 under seal. I don't why. The Registrar told us -- told me just now that
20 the subtitle of this document, there is something mentioning of under
21 seal. I don't know why.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, Mr. President. I don't why either --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the -- the Registrar will explain it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the surrogate sheet contains the 65
25 ter number and the indication that it is under seal, CD. Thank you.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I am sorry, I didn't handle this
3 detail earlier.
4 The original exhibit that I mentioned to you had an under seal
5 segment to it, nothing related to -- to this event. So if I could move
6 for this exhibit not to be under seal. There's no reason it should be.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I immediately would agree because this -- we have
8 seen this earlier and there can't be any reason to put it under seal.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me one second. I just need to get this
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I am told that this particular
14 clip is connected to some of these that do -- are under seal. But this
15 part is not. There's no reason to have this under seal, and we'll sort
16 this out so we don't bump into something that's under seal. I apologise
17 about that. I didn't realize the problem.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification. This specific
19 part can't be under seal. You should move on.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I -- I think if we could just -- and I think
21 it's important, of course, for the General that we don't have the --
22 well, I know he can hear it through the B/C/S. I don't think we need the
23 translation. I think it is probably better to hear General Mladic and
24 try to read the subtitles, but, of course, that's your call.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
1 Is there a separate document where we can read the subtitles?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: We -- we don't. There is a transcript that's
3 coming. I don't have that for you now. But it will come for your
4 later -- for your later review, because I know I always try to do that
5 and somehow that has not caught up with this exhibit yet.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Go ahead, please.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we're stopping at 20.28.4.
9 Q. Now, General, do you recognise when this was?
10 A. If I have seen the whole clip, maybe I would have remembered.
11 But I assume this is the moment when the Medal of Karadjordje Star First
12 Class was handed to General Mladic and myself. This was in one of the
13 huts where we had our dining hall. That was the biggest of the huts
14 there, and we would usually gather there when the group was larger. I
15 believe that this is it. It is not a New Year's celebration. It not
16 Mladic's birthday either. Because the New Year celebration that we spent
17 together and on the occasion when Mladic birthday was, we were both
18 wearing civilian clothes. I see Mladic is here in his uniform and I'm --
19 suspect that Mladic would say here in the clip why the gathering, what
20 was the purpose of the gathering. But I do think it was on the occasion
21 of receiving the decoration. What he did was he handed over the
22 decoration to his wife and put me in a tight spot. My wife was also
23 there and I should have done the same, but the Medals of Karadjordje and
24 of Obradovic --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, of Nemanjic.
1 A. -- can be only be handed over to male family members.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. All right. Well, we'll sort out precisely when this is. But the
4 main question I wanted to ask you about was whether or not you agreed
5 with General Mladic when he mentioned that the inner core of the
6 Main Staff was yourself, Generals Djukic, Gvero, and Tolimir.
7 A. Yes, yes, he mentioned Generals Grubor and Skrbic. He mentioned
8 actually, the chief of the sectors in the Main Staff, his immediate
9 assistants, actually. He just briefly mentioned two chiefs of
10 administration, these are Generals Tomic and Maric. Other than Mladic, I
11 don't see anyone else in this video footage, so I can really not tell
12 what meeting it is, but I was telling you yesterday almost the entire day
13 about the way decisions were made in the Main Staff and this is exactly
14 what General Mladic confirmed. Some ideas or initial decisions were made
15 by the two of us at a plank in front of the hut. We used to go there and
16 sit there for hours. General Miletic always used to joke when the two of
17 us would get up from that plank. He would say, Us operatives are
18 sharpening our pencils, meaning a decision had been made. What the two
19 of us by ourselves concluded would later then go on to the Main Staff, to
20 one of those meetings of ours, whether it was the morning one or the
21 evening one, either one, and then I explained the procedure of how
22 decisions were made. If it was a strategic decision, then we would call
23 the corps to participate in the final decision.
24 Q. Thank you, General. And we do recall that.
25 Let me go back to the beginning of the video to see if that will
1 help refresh your recollection, and otherwise we'll sort that out a bit
2 later. But if we should go to the beginning, it should be around
3 17.30.33.030. Actually 0032.
4 Now, that is OTP labelling and that's not what we want to rely on
5 here, so I want to rely on you. So let's play it from there and see if
6 there's anything that you can help us with. Starting at 17.03.0.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. First of all, can you tell us who these people are, starting from
10 the right and moving towards the left of the screen.
11 A. To the right, it's General Gvero. He is smoking.
12 Next to him with his hand on his chin is General Milovanovic.
13 That's me, worrying.
14 To the right of me, judging by the curly hair, that's my wife.
15 To the right of her is General Mladic.
16 To the right of General Mladic is General Mladic's wife.
17 This is what you can see on this footage.
18 I don't know, but, at the beginning, I saw the date the 13th of
19 January, 1996. And now I'm actually sure that's the occasion when
20 General Mladic and I were decorated.
21 Q. All right.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record we stopped at 17.14.1.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh. Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Let's let it play a bit more.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Well, I want to see if you can recognise the person that's
3 standing to General Mladic's -- or sitting, sorry, and to
4 General Mladic's right. You had it, right there. Yeah. Can you make
5 out that -- and it's 17.21.4. And it's not a very clear shot.
6 A. This is the chief of the financial administration,
7 Major-General Stevo Tomic.
8 Q. And let's just play this for a bit to see if this helps.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. General, I don't know if that helps you, but you can see that
12 General Mladic is saying that General Tolimir is off battling dragons in
13 Vienna. Do you know what time-frame that would be?
14 A. This is after the war. This is early 1996, because Tolimir
15 participated in the delegation of Republika Srpska in Dayton. I said
16 yesterday that he was considered to be as the most skillful diplomat
17 amongst us and he was part of the Presidency or actually the political
18 delegation of Republika Srpska at various negotiations. I don't know
19 exactly what the negotiations were about in Vienna at the time, but I
20 know that after that, after the war stopped, Tolimir mostly was the one
21 who travelled abroad following -- or escorts Krajisnik or Karadzic, or
22 whoever went as a representative of the Republika Srpska leadership. He
23 was there representing the army.
24 Q. All right. Thank you, General.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I think we should just keep
1 this marked, and I will try to offer it separately once we make sure
2 it's -- it's separated out. And we ended at 18.13.2. And -- because it
3 will get used again relatively soon and we'll have that -- that sorted
4 out for you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That will be marked for
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7388 shall be
8 assigned exhibit number P2228, marked for identification. Thank you.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. And, General, I also wanted to go -- you'll recall sitting down
11 with Mr. Blaszczyk and going over a chart of offices.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have 65 ter 2050 up on the screen.
13 Q. Do you remember going over the chart of offices in the -- in
14 those proof -- what you called pre-fab buildings at Crna Rijeka?
15 A. I see the same diagram on both screens. And now there is another
17 Yes, I remember you gave this to me during my testimony in 2007.
18 There were many empty boxes, so you asked me to write in with an ordinary
19 pencil the names that were missing in the boxes. This is 1995, and from
20 what I can see here, I was really not able to help you very much.
21 The diagram on the left-hand side where it says "main entrance",
22 that is the prefabricated hut where the inner core of the Main Staff was
23 located. These were both working and sleeping rooms. What do you need
24 me to comment that I should agree with the diagram? Not agree? Or do
25 you need me to explain anything?
1 Q. Well, General.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, for the Court,
3 Your Honours, this was the original diagram that is -- Mr. Salapura
4 provided the Court. We then provided it to General Milovanovic for his
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And, General, I just want to go over the circled marks because
8 those reflected your comments. So if we can start with the left-hand
9 side, that's at the bottom of our screen, we see a circle with an X in
10 it, where you seem to have X'd out that Milovanovic's security and
11 sleeping, which was what Salapura had provided, and you have put in
12 helicopter pilots; is that correct?
13 A. You're asking me?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Actually, it's the other way around. On the left-hand side of
16 the circled box where it says helicopter pilots, that's my handwriting.
17 That's the diagram that I was looking at. The right-hand side could be
18 Salapura's. Because it is incorrectly stated there, that this is
19 Milovanovic's security, but if it says -- I mean, if he considered the
20 helicopter pilots to be part of my security, that's one thing, but that's
21 wrong. I had different security. I just want to say that my version is
22 correct in relation to Salapura's. I'm going to prove that. 16, it
23 says, Maric. Actually, this is where the air force administration was
24 located, and the helicopter pilots were right there across the hall for
25 him to be able to monitor what they were doing and for him to keep them
1 close by because they were his subordinates.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Milovanovic, can you help us? Which entries,
3 handwritten entries, are made by yourself? On the bottom of the -- this
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote in helicopter pilots.
6 Something else was written there. Then I crossed it out. I don't know
7 what was written there before. I'm not able to see it. Actually, what
8 it said was Milovanovic's security. But my security was actually located
9 in another room.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I just wanted to know which part was
11 made by you.
12 Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
14 Q. General, thank you for correcting that. Now let's go to the top
15 of the page where we can see -- looks like two offices and they're noted
16 as "Mladic," "Milovanovic," and then in parentheses "(Miletic)," and then
17 next to is "Milovanovic sleeping quarters". All of that is circled and
18 then there is some handwritten to the left that says: "In Milovanovic's
20 Who wrote: "In Milovanovic's absence"?
21 A. That's my handwriting. I put that. I explained yesterday that
22 Mladic and I used one office, in order to save space since we were rarely
23 at the Main Staff at the same time. Then, depending on which one of us
24 was absent, General Miletic would jump in as my deputy, so Mladic always
25 had with him either the Chief of Staff or his deputy. That's why
1 Miletic's name is in parentheses and that's why I wrote "In Milovanovic's
2 absence". I would have also written in Mladic's absence, because the
3 same thing happened if Mladic was absent. I would bring Miletic to that
4 so that we could work together. Otherwise, Miletic was actually located
5 in the operations centre, because the operations centre is part of his
6 organ, the operations administration.
7 Q. All right. And we see "main entrance" there circled at the top
8 of this. Did you write that or did someone else?
9 A. Yes, that's my handwriting. We marked that as the main entrance
10 because you could -- you entered the hut from the front, from the road.
11 There was another entrance of the same capacity down there but we
12 considered that to be an auxiliary entrance because mostly we would use
13 that for exiting. It was narrow. We would enter through the main
14 entrance and we would exit through that exit at the bottom. You can't
15 really see it. It was next to that office where there is the word
16 "Pandzic" next to it. So we did this in order to avoid passing each
17 other in the hall, which was narrow.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honours, to make it perfectly clear,
20 and I'm sure Mr. Gajic will agree with me, this is one of the buildings
21 where we were on the site visit.
22 Q. So we also see on the right side of the picture -- well, four
23 circles outside of the building itself. The first one is written
24 "Colonel Trkulja with another officer," and the second one mentions
25 "Colonel Djurdjevic" and "Colonel Masal". The third circle mentions
1 "Colonel Pandzic". And the fourth one mentions "administration of air
2 force and anti-aircraft defence".
3 Did you write in all of that information, all of those four
4 circles, to add to the correctness of this diagram?
5 A. Yes. This is my handwriting, and I made these circles next to
6 the boxes, because the boxes were small, and something was already
7 written there in a foreign language. So I just wanted to actually
8 indicate the names of people who were there, corresponding to the boxes.
9 It was not my intention to indicate that anybody was outside of the hut.
10 Q. Thank you. And so the rest of the information that we see here,
11 the -- says "the blue room" at the top and then we see "Gvero,"
12 "Tolimir," and the other information, do you agree with it, that it is
14 A. Yes. And this is proof that the sketch dates from 1995 because
15 in the beginning in 1992 when we first got together, the box where it
16 says "blue room" was where General Gvero was located. And then later we
17 moved him one box down so that we could have a room where the inner core
18 of the Main Staff could meet. There were blue chairs in the room, that's
19 why we called it the blue room. That began to function from 1995. Until
20 1995, this was the room where Gvero slept. Actually, it was his office
21 and also the room that he slept in.
22 Q. All right. And you'll recall being asked this before. But do
23 you recall the telephone extension for your office as it's marked here?
24 A. It was extension 155. A military phone extension. It was the
25 telephone of the Main Staff, and it had my name because I was the Chief
1 of Staff, the most senior officer in the staff. Last time I explained
2 that this telephone did play a role like a public telephone box. If
3 anybody wanted anybody in the Main Staff, everything would go through
4 that number because we knew where everybody was.
5 Next to the Mladic, Milovanovic office there was an extension in
6 the next room, the one labelled "Milovanovic sleeping quarters," and then
7 also there was a line going to the operations centre. That is room 3.
8 It was also connected to the building where Mladic was sleeping and it
9 was also corrected to the subterranean command post which I explained
10 yesterday was the room of the Chief of the Staff. So the whole
11 operations crew, some 20 to 30 people including the courier, had access
12 to that number.
13 Q. All right.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would offer this into evidence.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2050 shall be
17 assigned exhibit number P2229. Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please. Judge Mindua has a question.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, just a small
20 clarification question.
21 On page 18 of the transcript, line 22, you stated, I quote:
22 "That it was room number 3, which was connected to the building in which
23 General Mladic was spending his nights" or was staying overnight. Is
24 this building on this chart here in your sketch, or was it a bit farther
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a separate building. It's
2 some 1 or 1.5 kilometres away from that place and it was at the entrance
3 to the underground command post, and it was used as a camouflage,
4 actually, from an aerial view. It looked like some kind of weekend house
5 or a villa but underneath it was actually the entrance to the underground
6 command post. What we see on the diagram was a wooden prefabricated hut.
7 It was aboveground, whereas the villa where Mladic was sleeping was a
8 building made of bricks and mortar and that's where Mladic was sleeping,
9 and it was at the entrance to the underground command post.
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Was there a basement which
11 connected this command post to General Mladic's villa?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Underneath the building there was a
13 garage. Again, as camouflage, so that passers-by, when they went by,
14 would see the weekend house with a garage. However, from the garage, you
15 would enter the corridor of the underground command post, and these
16 corridors would branch off from the main path. Yesterday I said it was
17 like a small subterranean town. It had been worked on for some 18 years
18 after World War II and it was the command post of Marshal Tito. They say
19 he just spent 20 minutes there, when it was first put into operation, and
20 during the war, his rooms were most frequently used and were a favourite
21 place of General Gvero, because there was a bathroom there as well, and
22 other amenities.
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I just
24 wanted to clarify this, because in fact the Trial Chamber went to see the
25 premises on the ground, on site.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Allow me to put an additional question to finally
2 clarify this:
3 Was it possible to get from the barracks we have the chart on the
4 screen now to go to Mladic's villa and the underground facilities but --
5 by a tunnel; or are you talking about a telephone connection between
6 these two buildings?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no tunnel. There was a
8 natural ditch that would lead to beneath Mladic's building and then there
9 was a sharp incline. I usually avoided taking that path but I would take
10 the roundabout path because the incline was not so steep.
11 There was a telephone line. It wasn't underground. It was a
12 field telephone cable. It was a temporary solution. There was no tunnel
13 between the hut and the underground command post. And since I can see
14 that this is creating some confusion. I can see it is creating some
15 confusion, this problem why Mladic was sleeping in a separate building.
16 It wasn't a question of comfort. It was just that because of the rules,
17 the deputy and the commander are not supposed to spend the nights at the
18 same place in case one of them was killed. That rule also applied to
19 when we were driving. We were not permitted to drive together in the
20 same vehicle.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for this clarification.
22 Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And can you tell us, during those war years, what was this --
25 Mladic's building where he slept, what did you normally refer to it as?
1 A. We referred to it as Mladic's villa.
2 Q. All right. Thank you.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And can we now go to exhibit 65 ter 2363. And
4 there's an English -- should be an English translation as well.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there is no English translation.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps we should get the ELMO up. I'm sorry, I
7 don't know what the problem was. But this is an English translation.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Usher will put the English translation on the
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Though it's ...
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you can't have both at the same time on the
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
14 Q. General, can you tell us, while we're getting the ELMO fired up,
15 what this is?
16 A. This is the Main Staff telephone directory, updated in
17 August 1995.
18 Q. And let's go to the next page in the -- in the B/C/S. In the
19 Serbian. And the next page. And the next page.
20 And just in reviewing this, perhaps we could flip over to the
21 ELMO to see what we've got.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we -- could we have this -- the respective
23 English page on the ELMO.
24 Is this the right page, Mr. McCloskey?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That's the first page. If we could blow it
1 up so we can see the whole book -- I mean, the whole page.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could it be moved a bit further up?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, the audio guys -- thank you.
4 All right. We see just a series of phone numbers there. Can we
5 go to the next page in the English? On the ELMO. Thanks. And if you
6 can -- we can see -- what we need to get the -- the General's -- if we
7 could back -- back to e-court to that page in -- yes.
8 Q. So I'm sorry to have to make you remember both those things.
9 General, do you see your extension right down here?
10 A. I can see it. The second line from the bottom. Military
11 automatic telephone switchboard with G-1. G-1 was the underground
12 command location I have been talking about the past two days. The last
13 line is the automatic telephone switchboard at the post office in
15 Yes, I can see it.
16 Q. All right. I -- I won't go through the -- the entire book at
17 this point, and it speaks for itself.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: So I would just offer this into evidence.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, we can only mark it for
22 identification at the moment. The English translation should be uploaded
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be marked for identification, pending
1 translation. And the ELMO should be switched off. No, it's not switched
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 2363 shall be assigned
4 exhibit number P2230. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Marked for identification, indeed, pending
7 Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. General, I want to now take you briefly back to May 11, 1992.
10 And again, briefly, and -- can you tell us on May 12th, where were you
11 and where was most of the rest of the -- the staff on May 12th?
12 A. On the 12th of May of 1992, I was in the Main Staff in the huts.
13 I organised the work of the Main Staff and established communication
14 links with our subordinates. I also drafted bulletins and orders and
15 notifications concerning the tasks we had been issued with the previous
17 The rest of the Main Staff, or that is to say, the core of the
18 Main Staff was in Banja Luka, attending the assembly session when the
19 decision was made on the establishment of the armed forces.
20 Q. Do you know if, at that time, Colonel Tolimir went to Banja Luka
21 to that assembly session?
22 A. I know that everyone disappeared from the Main Staff, save
23 from -- for myself. So I think he went to Banja Luka too. Mladic did,
24 Gvero, did, Djukic did, and I think Tolimir did too. They all got in a
25 helicopter in the morning and disappeared from the area of the
1 Main Staff.
2 Q. All right. Can we go to P00022. And if we could blow up the
3 Serbian part that has the numbers 1 through 6 on the left side so that
4 the General can read it.
5 And, General, we can see here that this is a -- a segment of the
6 report on the May 12th assembly session. It's the -- what's referred to
7 as the Official Gazette. Is that correct?
8 A. What I have before me is correct. These are the six strategic
10 Could we please scroll up in the Serbian so that can I see the
11 very bottom of the page. Not that far. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's an indication that this is from 1992.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Yes, is that correct? Is that the day that you're talking about,
15 that you were alone at Crna Rijeka and everyone else went to Banja Luka
16 to an assembly session?
17 A. It says that the decision was reached on May 12, 1992, which is
18 on the day when I was left alone in the Main Staff.
19 What I'm looking for, though, is when this decision was published
20 because there is much to say about it. If you wanted me to.
21 Q. Actually the issue of when it was published to the public is not
22 an issue that I wanted to ask you about. If you feel it's a -- needs to
23 be mentioned as part of your answer, of course, that's absolutely
24 important and you can do that.
25 But before we get there, I just want to -- can you confirm, or
1 not, that this decision on strategic objectives was adopted by the
2 assembly on May 12th?
3 A. I was looking for the date of publication for the very reason.
4 These are the strategic objectives of the war, of the RS. We can see
5 that there are six. I will not go into the contents. The political
6 leadership of the RS met for the first time with the representatives of
7 the Main Staff. That is to say, with Mladic, myself, and Tolimir, I
8 believe, on the 16th of May, four days following this assembly session.
9 The first thing the generals asked for were the goals or the
10 objectives of the war, so as to be able to define the Main Staff's
11 strategy of waging war. We had inherited two concepts of waging war. On
12 that occasion, we did not receive those war objectives, therefore we
13 construed them ourselves based on the tasks we had issued us between the
14 11th and 12th of May, in order to start waging war and carry out
15 mobilisation. I heard for the first time of the strategic objectives in
16 the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the proceedings against
17 Slobodan Milosevic, when Witness Sefer Halilovic referred to it. At the
18 beginning of the war he was the commander in chief of the Muslim forces.
19 I also read the text for the first time on the Internet at the time which
20 was sometime in 2004 or 2005. In the newspaper where I was able to read
21 the text, I also saw that the decision was published in the
22 Official Gazette in March 1993, meaning almost a full year later,
23 following the assembly decision.
24 Q. While we're there, can we now, with the Serbian side, go over to
25 the right and show the right corner.
1 We see a date up there. Is that the date -- should that be the
2 gazette, the date the gazette was published?
3 A. Then it is even worse than I thought. The date here is the 26th
4 of November, 1993. So a year and a half later following the decision or
5 the date when the decision was made.
6 None of the participants at the assembly could confirm to me that
7 it was at that session that this decision was made. And if -- if it was,
8 they couldn't say why it was not shown to the Main Staff. We kept
9 zigzagging, trying to pinpoint our wartime objectives, and it would have
10 been far easier for us to have these six goals, because then we would
11 have been able to organise and direct the army in order to pursue those
12 strategic objectives.
13 Q. Let me just ask you about number 1. It says: "Establish state
14 borders separating the Serbian people from the other two ethnic
16 What is your understanding of the meaning of that?
17 A. It would mean that, following the Dayton Accords, state border
18 between the two entities should have been created along the ethnic lines.
19 At the time, the RS existed as a socio-political entity, and the
20 Croat/Muslim entity was not put in any particular territorial boundaries.
21 What existed there was also the Herceg-Bosna. Until the Dayton Accords,
22 the boundaries were never drawn between the entities. Therefore, we
23 didn't know how far ahead we could go with the army or what territories
24 we had to abandon.
25 Q. Well, General --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. May this
3 day be concluded in keeping with God's will and not necessarily my own.
4 I'd like to greet General Milovanovic, wish him a very pleasant stay with
6 The general said he saw the first -- this decision for the first
7 time after the war during the Milosevic trial, and Mr. McCloskey is
8 asking him about it. Could this be clarified, please? Is he asking the
9 General about the contents, which is something the General only saw after
10 the war; or is he asking him about the war itself?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, this is an strong
12 background noise when the accused turns on his microphone. There seems
13 to be a technical problem.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The technical problem shall be resolved during
15 the break.
16 Mr. Tolimir, I think it was clear on the record that the witness
17 stated he saw this document the first time during the Milosevic trial.
18 But you are now rising. Indeed, this is on the record. You can follow
19 up with that.
20 Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. General, we see this is dated the 12th of May. If that is
23 correct, clearly, the idea of a peace agreement, especially at a place
24 called Dayton, Ohio, is certainly a long way off. So when you mentioned
25 Dayton in your answer, can you be a little clearer? When it says:
1 "Establish state borders separating the Serbian people from the other two
2 ethnic communities," can you tell us, first of all, what are the other
3 two ethnic communities that's referred to? To your knowledge, now, as we
4 sit in this courtroom today.
5 A. The Muslims and Croats. Because, as early as April 1992, they
6 had formed a coalition. They joined up forces against the Serbs in
8 Q. And did you, at some point, on or after May 12th, understand that
9 this was an objective, to establish state borders separating the Serbian
10 people from the Muslim people and the Croat people?
11 A. I understood that back when I was in Macedonia, when, on the 9th
12 of January, the decision was made to establish Republika Srpska. It
13 included the former SAOs, the independent Serb or autonomous Serb regions
14 of the Krajina, Posavina and Semberija, as well as the Sarajevo-Romanija
15 plateau and Herzegovina. Those were the regions with predominantly Serb
16 population. By virtue of that declaration on the establishment of
17 Republika Srpska as an independent state within Bosnia-Herzegovina,
18 Republika Srpska was created, as such. Political bodies were being
19 formed in the area, and this is when a paradox occurred concerning the
20 reasons for the establishment of armed forces. If you want me to, I may
21 elaborate on it further; if not, let's move on.
22 Q. Let me just -- and I don't want to spend a lot of time on this,
23 as we can see a political document. But, just --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it possible that Judge Nyambe puts a question
25 at this point in time?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please.
2 JUDGE NYAMBE: General, I wonder if you can clarify for me at
3 page 28, line 20 you are recorded as having said: "I understood that
4 back when I was in Macedonia, when on 9th of January ..."
5 Which year are you referring to?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. And, General, we see that this number 1 clearly talks about -- it
11 says "separating the Serbian people from the other two ethnic
13 Now, the Trial Chamber, the world knows, that Bosnia was fully
14 mixed. Serbs lived close to and with Muslims and Croats throughout
15 Bosnia. How can such an objective be achieved like that, given that
16 reality of how people are living on the ground? And, again, just -- I
17 know we could discuss this for days, but could you just give us a short
18 idea of that particular conundrum, or paradox, if you will?
19 A. Although Bosnia and Herzegovina resembled and still does a
20 melting pot, or a tiger's skin, as regards the mixture of population that
21 pattern, still, had certain specific areas. There are such areas where
22 the Serbs are in the majority. Then there are such areas where we have
23 the Muslims in the majority, or Croats. Roughly speaking, in Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina as a whole, there were 31.7 per cent Serbs, 42 or 43 per cent
25 Muslims, and 17.5 per cent Croats. However, they were grouped more or
1 less. The Serbs were predominantly in the Krajina, Eastern Bosnia and
2 Eastern Herzegovina. The Muslims dominated Central Bosnia around
3 Sarajevo and Zenica and in the area between Doboj and Sarajevo. The
4 Croats lived in Central Bosnia but towards the outskirts of that area in
5 the Lasva Valley, on Mount Vlasic and in Travnik and Bugojno. So the
6 ethnic communities were grouped in a way, or concentrated. In the area
7 of what is now the Federation of the Bosnia-Herzegovina, out of the total
8 number of inhabitants before the war, there were 17 per cent Serbs. That
9 is to say, out of the total number of Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 17
10 per cent of them lived in the Federation territory. Meaning that 83
11 per cent of them were concentrated in the areas I just enumerated, in the
12 Krajina, Semberija, Eastern Bosnia, Romanija, and Eastern Herzegovina.
13 Under such circumstances, an ethnic division could have been carried out,
14 in order to separate the communities. Such agreement was, indeed,
15 reached in Lisbon, as part of the Cutileiro Plan and this gave hope for
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina to steer clear of the war.
17 However, on the way back to Sarajevo, on the plane,
18 Alija Izetbegovic withdrew his signature. And what I heard was that
19 Zimmerman, US ambassador in Belgrade talked him into doing so.
20 Warren Zimmerman, I believe. Once the plane landed, no one awaited him.
21 There were no assistants of his. Only the commander of the 2nd Army
22 awaited him, as well as General MacKenzie of UNPROFOR. Then they took
23 him to Lukavica and Alija tried to picture that as his kidnapping. In
24 any case, to cut things short, it was possible to carry out such a
25 division among the ethnic communities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That
1 agreement was reached, then annulled, and was only implemented because of
2 the Dayton Accords. However, we were not accorded the status of states,
3 neither the RS nor the Federation. We were only accorded the status of
4 entities which is a step lower than a state. It amounts to some 70
5 per cent of statehood prerogatives in total.
6 Q. General, are you suggesting that Dayton Accords supported the
7 division in Bosnia of peoples by ethnicity? It's a simple question, a
8 simple answer.
9 A. Yes. We must say, though, that the Muslims and Croats
10 voluntarily joined a single entity. It's a matter that was part of the
11 Washington Agreement of March 1, 1994. The Dayton Accords simply copied
12 that solution and changed the name. They were no longer to the
13 Muslim/Croat federation, but the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we should end that discussion now, and
15 it's time for the break.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed. We must have our first break now,
17 and we will resume at 11.00.
18 Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, as I look at my outline I hope to
20 finish in the next -- sometime in the next break.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, you're very optimistic. Thank you.
22 We adjourn.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. All right. General, you had mentioned briefly. Now I want to
4 take us to July 1995, where you had told us you were on the western front
5 and that you had come back to the Crna Rijeka area for
6 General Zivanovic's retirement party or going-away function.
7 So could you just tell us what date did you come back to the area
8 and where did you go? And just tell us a bit about that in a -- in a
9 brief narrative.
10 A. It was on the 19th of July. I was summoned on the 18th by
11 General Mladic to come the following day. He wasn't sure on which day
12 the going-away function was supposed to be held but he summoned me to be
13 there, to be present. I arrived at Crna Rijeka in the evening hours of
14 the 19th of July. I didn't find any of the Main Staff members in the
15 prefab buildings and I asked the courier by the name of
16 Sladjan Kovacevic, who was the senior officer present in the staff and he
17 told me General Gvero, he is somewhere in the subterranean command post.
18 He went to take a bath.
19 I got in touch with Gvero, and, as first -- his first words to me
20 were, I congratulate you on Zepa. And I asked him, What do you mean,
21 Zepa? And he said, Well, our forces are entering Zepa. Most probably we
22 are in the middle of negotiations with the Muslims there.
23 I spent the night at Crna Rijeka and on the following day, we
24 went to Restaurant Jela, which is somewhere halfway between Han Pijesak
25 and Sokolac, the sending-off party was to take place there. Everyone was
1 there. You have even the footage of it. We were waiting for
2 General Mladic. General Mladic arrived from somewhere in a helicopter.
3 We greeted each other, because I was there to receive him when he came,
4 and then we walked to the restaurant together. Mladic was there only for
5 a brief period, not more than 20 minutes or certainly less than half an
6 hour. He handed a usual type of gift to General Zivanovic, said a few
7 words about Zivanovic's command of the corps, and headed off back to the
8 helicopter. I went with him to the helicopter. And on the way from the
9 restaurant to the helicopter, which is about 50 metres distance I asked
10 him, is there a way -- he asked me whether there was a way to keep Glamoc
11 and Bihac, and I told him if can he give me three additional brigades,
12 yes. And, indeed, the two towns fell on the 28th of July.
13 That was my entire stay there. I went back to Crna Rijeka. I
14 stayed there for I don't know how long, but on the 22nd of July, I was
15 already back in Drvar.
16 Q. When you asked him for those three additional brigades for the
17 western front, did you get them?
18 A. I got two brigades, but only on the 2nd of August. It was the
19 Protection Regiment, and one brigade that was part of the Drina Corps,
20 namely the Zvornik Brigade that was under the command of
21 then-Colonel Pandurevic but it was too late; Glamoc was already lost, and
23 Q. Did you see General Tolimir anywhere around Crna Rijeka when you
24 arrived, or at the Jela restaurant party?
25 A. I cannot remember whether I've seen it or not. I remember
1 sitting next to General Gvero, I think. Between Crna Rijeka and Jela, I
2 was -- on the way to Jela, I was with Gvero. I don't remember Tolimir at
3 all being there.
4 Q. Do you know where General Tolimir was on the 19th and the 20th of
5 July, when you were -- you had arrived back to Crna Rijeka, and then the
6 20th, when you went to the party at Jela?
7 A. Someone in the Main Staff told me that Tolimir was at the forward
8 command post 2 of the Main Staff. My forward command post was number 1.
9 But I didn't know where that was located.
10 Q. All right. And, General, I'm just going to play to you a part of
11 a video to see if you recognise it. I think it's in the process of being
12 subtitled, so I don't have the subtitles or the transcript right now.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think, Mr. President. But I just, for
14 the purposes, I just wanted to see if he can identify it, and it is a
15 going-away party basically. And it is 65 ter 1404.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honours, we'll provide with you stills
19 with the IDs of these other people. But I just -- I'll ask him just a
20 few questions. 00.02.11.6.
21 Q. Do you recognise this person?
22 A. Yes, I recognise the person. It's me.
23 Q. All right. We'll play a little bit more of the video to see if
24 you can determine if it's the function we just spoke about.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. And can you remind us who that is at 02.43.2 that you're looking
3 at that is to your right and to the left of the screen, the person
5 A. It's General Gvero. And standing behind him is his deputy,
6 Colonel Sokanovic.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's continue.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're going to skip forward a --
11 Q. Actually, let's just stop there and identify these two
12 individuals, if you could. We're at 03.35.0.
13 A. This is General Milenko Zivanovic. He is holding his ears. And
14 next to him is the new corps commander, General Krstic. And we can see
15 one part of the head of the General Djukic, logistics chief.
16 Q. And we'll try to skip ahead a bit to see if we can find
17 General Mladic in his helicopter.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. And we just saw in Cyrillic at 18.03.8, what is that -- can you
21 just tell us what that says?
22 A. Restaurant Jela.
23 Q. All right. Let's continue.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
1 Q. General, can you just tell us what -- does that refresh your
2 recollection on whether or not this -- this footage reflects what you'd
3 been talking about?
4 A. Yes. The first in the group of three is General Mladic. Then
5 myself. And then General Zivanovic, the person in whose honour the party
6 was held.
7 Q. And the helicopter that we see, is that the helicopter that you
8 walked General Mladic out to and spoke to him briefly that you just
9 described to us?
10 A. Yes. That was a Gazelle helicopter that was part of what the
11 army had.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We stopped at 21.06.9.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could just mark
15 this for identification right now. I want to make sure you get a proper
16 transcript and subtitle, and I'm sure we have one. I -- we're just not
17 precisely sure this is the one. So we'll get back to that at a later
18 point. This is all I really wanted to go over with this witness.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. 65 ter 1404 will be marked for
21 THE REGISTRAR: And shall be assigned exhibit number P2231,
22 marked for identification. Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And, General, lastly, I want to ask you if you recall on
25 March 31st, 2011 meeting with Mr. Tomasz Blaszczyk of our office, where
1 he sat with you with several original, what we call convoy request
2 documents and asked you to look over them. Do you recall that?
3 A. I had several meetings with Mr. Blaszczyk, most probably on the
4 31st of March as well, in the Europol building in Banja Luka, and we were
5 going through requests for two days, and I was asked whether I could
6 recognise initials or signatures of Generals Mladic, Tolimir, Gvero, and
8 Q. All right. Let's go to 65 ter 7372, which is a packet of
9 materials that reflects that meeting. And this was done as -- as can you
10 see, Mr. President, relatively recently so it has not made it on the
11 65 ter list. I discussed this a bit with Mr. Gajic, and I don't think we
12 have a problem.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that you are moving for adding these
14 documents to the 65 ter exhibit list.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, please.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. All right. And if this is -- all right. An English and Serbian
19 copy of Mr. Blaszczyk's report about what you'd said about convoy
20 material and your meeting with him. So let go to the next page. I don't
21 want to go over that. You've basically testified to that already. But
22 attached to that are our numbers, ERNs of all the material that you went
23 over. Is that your understanding, General?
24 A. Yes. And I had an opportunity to see the report made by
25 Mr. Blaszczyk during the recent proofing. And I had a comment:
1 Miletic's name was not Milivoj but Radivoje.
2 Q. Thank you for that correction. Any other corrections to what you
3 saw in Mr. Blaszczyk's report?
4 A. No. I also went through the same reports we had looked at in
5 Banja Luka, but I still am not sure 100 percent about initials,
6 especially in relation to Tolimir because he would use Cyrillics and
7 Latinics depending on the occasion but I could tell that it was his
8 document on the basis of the contents of the document, and on the basis
9 of the handwriting, as far as I remembered the handwriting.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 In order not to waste time showing the documents, is
13 Mr. McCloskey saying that these are signatures or initials of various
14 officers in the ERNs numbers because the difference between the two is
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, as you'll see, the General
18 went through many of these and circled in blue the item that he
19 recognised and noted who he thought it was, and sometimes it's initials.
20 It's mostly initials, I believe. There may be a couple of signatures,
21 but it's -- it's very evident from the exhibit. And I have spoken to
22 Mr. Gajic and the idea that I would go over some examples of them so that
23 you could get the feel how this collection worked. But, of course,
24 they're all in e-court and they're all available for cross-examination.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The list of documents we see on the screen, the
1 first item indicates a signature of Manojlo Milovanovic, marked as "MM"
2 which is, in fact, initials and not a signature, MM.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, let's go to page 20 in e-court and you'll
4 see how this works, I -- I ...
5 And it was not our -- it's -- my intention to have the General
6 discuss the -- or analyse the material, just the hand -- the signatures
7 or initials.
8 Q. So, General, we see this document -- and, yeah, if we could blow
9 it up a bit. We see it's the 26th of April, 1995.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honours, Mr. President, you will be
11 hearing more about what these documents are and getting English
12 translations of them so that's coming but just not through this witness.
13 Q. And, General, do you recognise this document and these blue marks
14 that are made?
15 A. Yes, I can recognise the document. It bears my signature. And a
16 correction to what General Tolimir said. I never initialed any of my
17 documents. I didn't know how to come up with two Ms in an initial. What
18 we have here though, the MM, this is just my initials of name and surname
19 but not an initial. General Tolimir used to initial his documents, so
20 this, this is my document, I -- I made a circle around it in blue, and
21 added MM, as the investigator asked me to do.
22 Q. All right. So that MM was just for us to know that you had made
23 these blue marks. And what is this handwriting we see within the circle?
24 A. This is my signature. During the war, I signed documents using
25 Latinics. And it is here "M," and then "Milovanovic". I always used my
1 surname in full.
2 Q. All right. Now let's go to page 46 in e-court.
3 And if we could pull that -- yeah, that's a good idea.
4 Again, we see blue markings, and we see several circles. And can
5 you tell us, have you -- have you made all those markings in blue?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And that first elongated -- that oval that's on the top,
8 we see an "RM" next to it. What does that mean?
9 A. It means that General Mladic received this document from someone,
10 read it, and that he is asking for opinion by Generals Gvero and Tolimir.
11 He wrote there "General Gvero" and "Toso". That was the nickname we used
12 for General Tolimir. "I'm asking you to provide me with your position
13 and opinion."
14 And then Tolimir first writes: "Yes," Da, then crosses it out
15 and puts in "no," but I can't see where Gvero's position is on the
17 Q. All right. So when you put "RM" next to that top oval, was that
18 identifying the author of the handwriting in that oval?
19 A. Yes, that is Ratko Mladic. Ratko Mladic's initials.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir. Your microphone, please.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please clarify
22 if this is Tolimir's -- if these are Tolimir's initials next to the
23 crossed over "da" and then next to the words "ne". Can we clarify which
24 initials go with what is written.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm being asked or ... ?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm asking the
2 Prosecutor to clarify because it's unclear.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm quite sure that Mr. McCloskey will do that.
4 He is going to do that. Please carry on.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Okay. I think we've clarified the big oval. Now let's get to
7 the circle on the right side of the document, where we see that you have
8 written a big "R." and "M". Can you tell us what that lower
9 "R.M" underneath that circle means?
10 A. That means that the initials in that circle are those of
11 Ratko Mladic.
12 Q. All right. Let's go to the left where we see you have written a
13 "Z.T." Is that correct, you've written that blue, like you've told us
15 A. The lower initials next to which the letters "ZT" are, I think
16 that's the initials of Tolimir.
17 As for the top one, I didn't put anything there. If you see on
18 the left-hand side it looks as if it was written "Gvero," and the
19 paragraph -- the -- the initials do resemble the letters "GM". But I
20 wasn't sure, so I didn't put Gvero's initials next to that. So from what
21 we can see here, it turns out that Tolimir first said yes, then crossed
22 it out, and then put no. If it -- these -- this -- these are the
23 initials of Gvero, it looks like he put "no," so it turns out that really
24 Mladic didn't get anything from this, because if one had put "yes" and
25 one had put "no," nothing really was to be gained from -- from that.
1 Q. All right. Let's go to P104. Sorry, it's -- no, it's e-court
2 page 104. Sorry.
3 And we could take up the whole page, if we could, and we don't
4 need that page on the left.
5 Okay. Let's start -- and let's blow up the stop of this where we
6 see the blue marks. And I think we now see the word "da" and then the --
7 circled in blue. And then next to the circle, it appears you have
8 written "ZT". Is that correct?
9 A. Yes. I thought that that was Zdravko Tolimir's initials. If you
10 scroll the document down, you can see "da" in Cyrillic at the top. Yes.
11 And then underneath that is a text with the same initials but in the
12 Roman script, and this is something that always confused me, because he
13 would switch from the Cyrillic to the Latin script, and this would even
14 happen on the same page. So that would confuse me.
15 Q. All right. Well, let's go blow up the whole page so we can see
16 what you're talking about again.
17 All right. And so we see that you have circled a part at the
18 bottom and you've also put "ZT". And we -- can you, just to be clear on
19 this one because there's a number of writing, can you take the pen - and
20 they'll show you how to do it - can you circle any initials that you've
21 identified as ZT?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment. The court usher will
23 assist you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I circle one of the ZT?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Yes. Not the one that you wrote but the one that you've --
2 you've identified as ZT. At the -- if there's one at the bottom. I'm
3 talking about the bottom ZT that you've written.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. All right. And can you just mark a "1" next to that.
6 A. Number 1?
7 Q. Yes, please.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And what -- what is that inside your circle number 1?
10 A. I think those are Tolimir's initials in the Latin script. At the
11 top it's written in the Cyrillic script.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer this into evidence, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're talking about this specific document we
15 have on the screen now with the marking?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, please.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document with the marking made by the
18 witnesses would be received as an exhibit.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, marking made on the page 104 of the
20 65 ter document 7372 shall be assigned exhibit number P2232. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Can we now go to page 60 in e-court.
23 Q. All right. Let's start at the bottom this time and ask you about
24 the one at the bottom. Again, we see your blue markings. And what have
25 you circled at the bottom and marked "ZT"?
1 A. I circled Zdravko Tolimir's initials. And he wrote the word
2 "da," yes, in the Latin script.
3 Q. All right. And that "da" is an indication of his approval or his
4 proposed approval, I should say. Which is it? If you know.
5 A. He is making a proposal to someone here for a meeting to be held.
6 I don't know what's requested at the top.
7 Q. All right. And now let's go to this top one.
8 And can you just read out to us what that handwriting says in
9 the -- in the circled part?
10 A. "Deliver 2nd of February, 1995, to General Kelecevic 10.05.
11 Colonel Tomanic 12.20."
12 The initials are "MDj," Milos Djurdjic. He is a representative
13 of the Main Staff in the Commission for the Supply of Humanitarian Aid
14 which was formed in 1994.
15 Q. And do you recognise those initials from your work with
16 Milos Djurdjic?
17 A. No. But we arrived that conclusion by deduction, by looking at
18 other documents signed by Milos Djurdjic. Specifically, I did not
19 recognise his initials. I don't know what it's like. But we came to
20 that conclusion on the basis of other texts that we looked at.
21 Q. Now, General, you say "we." What we need here is your
22 conclusions. Can you make that conclusion yourself, based on seeing
23 other texts?
24 A. All right. Very well. I correct myself. I decided -- or I
25 concluded that these are the initials of Djurdjic.
1 Q. And when you said "we," who were you thinking of?
2 A. I meant Mr. Blaszczyk, who went through the documents with me,
3 because we were struggling, first of all, to find the first and last name
4 of the person with the initials "MDj," and our first conversation,
5 relating to this documents - and I don't know when that was held - I
6 really couldn't remember the last name of Djurdjic. I knew his first
7 name, Milos, and I knew his function, and then I called
8 General Savo Sokanovic by phone in Belgrade for him to tell me who it was
9 at the headquarters with the initials "MDj". There was a dilemma between
10 Mihajlo Djurdjevic, that engineer who was there. And then we dropped
11 that name because he had nothing to do with these documents and we're
12 left with Djurdjic, and then later we did really establish that the last
13 name of the person was Djurdjic.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I would offer these
16 collection of this material into evidence. These -- having provided
17 these examples of how this work was carried out.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are these attachments to the record or the
19 information Mr. Blaszczyk was writing?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. They had the brief information report and
21 then the -- our ERN numbers and then the actual documents themselves with
22 the ERN numbers and the General's marks.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then all these documents together are
24 65 ter 7372; is that correct?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This will be received as an exhibit.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be assigned exhibit number
3 P2233 [Realtime transcript read in error "P2223"]. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's the wrong number. It should be P2232.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And finally --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's incorrect. Please repeat the number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 7372 shall be assigned exhibit number
8 P2233. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have it, thank you.
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, we -- if we could have
12 65 ter 7395. And this is a product that the OTP put together based on
13 the personnel file of General Tolimir which has a, I believe, a 65 ter
14 number. So it's just an outgrowth of something that did have a 65 ter
15 number but it is a product that we -- that we did, and we have provided
16 this, I believe, several weeks ago to Mr. Gajic for his -- any comments
17 or additions or subtractions on it. And I've shown it recently to
18 General Milovanovic. We should have it in both languages.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm afraid this was not uploaded in B/C/S.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. General, do you remember me showing a B/C/S copy of -- of
22 something I described to you as a -- something we had done, a resume?
23 A. I do recall the document, and I wrote in pencil at the top of the
24 document that I've known General Tolimir from 11th of May, 1992, that,
25 until that time, I didn't know anything about his progressing through the
1 ranks, from school and then onto his duties. I didn't know much about
2 him. I also wrote in the information about him completing wartime
3 school, because I know that he told me that he had interrupted his
4 schooling, that he had left and then had to go back because the war had
5 began in the area of Knin. I'm not sure that he had completed the
6 National Defence School and that is why I put a question mark next to
7 that, because this is something that you would need to check with him.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we should just mark this for
10 identification and I will endeavour to get the Serbian copy of it. But
11 that all I really wanted him to say at this point, anyway, and I will, of
12 course, continue to discuss this with Mr. Gajic.
13 There's a large personnel file, but that's a very difficult --
14 and mostly in Serbian. It's a very difficult thing for anyone to go
15 through so we've just tried to create this. But I think we should just
16 mark it for now. And I -- I actually finished my questioning, so I have
17 nothing further.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. This document will be
19 marked for identification.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7395 shall be
21 assigned exhibit number P2234. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey.
23 Sir, you know now it's the turn of Mr. Tolimir to cross-examine
25 Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
2 you, Mr. McCloskey. Once again I would like to welcome
3 General Milovanovic.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
5 Q. [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't have any
6 questions at all following on the testimony of the witness. But maybe I
7 would have some questions relating to other people. But out of respect
8 for the General, I would just like us to look at P2233. Thank you.
9 Thank you. I apologise, Mr. President. There's been a mistake
10 in coordination between me and my legal assistant. I would like to look
11 at the document that has become P2233 after being admitted.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is on the screen. Perhaps you are referring
13 to a specific page. Then you should indicate which page you want to see.
14 THE REGISTRAR: If Mr. Tolimir is referring to exhibit that was
15 marked in court by the witness, that would be Exhibit P2232. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is correct.
17 According to my notes, that is page 60. I apologise to my legal
18 assistant because he did give me the correct document. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P2232 with the markings of the witness was
20 page 104. And now we have page 60 of P2233. No, it's not correct.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to ask the Registrar to indicate
23 which page and which document we see on the screen now.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, at the moment, we have
25 Exhibit P2232 on the screen. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this was page 104 of the document, P2233.
2 Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I was
4 looking for this specific page.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. General, sir, since you and I speak the same language and we have
7 to pause so that what we say can be recorded in the transcript, you must
8 make a break and then we will, of course, understand each other.
9 My first question is this: In view of the contents of the
10 document that you have read and that you see in front of you, is it
11 evident that activities that were agreed or approved, they were agreed on
12 at the joint military commission with UNPROFOR? Thank you.
13 A. I see your word, "da," yes, here and I can see then that you
14 approved at the meeting. And at the bottom you also provide an
15 explanation why:
16 "A representative of the VRS will join in when the UNPROFOR
17 informs that the Muslim army ... " and I cannot decipher this last word.
18 I understand this document to mean that you have approved something.
19 Q. Thank you. Yes, that is correct. And that is so in all the
20 documents. There are initials for UNPROFOR on things that were agreed
21 with UNPROFOR at joint meetings, and then the commander's approval is
22 sought. This document that you see here, was it addressed to Tolimir or
23 to the Main Staff?
24 A. It was addressed to the Main Staff of the Army of
25 Republika Srpska.
1 Q. And all the documents that you looked at with Mr. Blaszczyk, are
2 they all like that? The ones that are sent from UNPROFOR, are they sent
3 to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and not to any
4 particular individual? Thank you.
5 A. Well, no. That does not apply to all of them. We found a number
6 of documents that were sent to the chief of the General Staff -- the
7 Main Staff, that is myself. We found some documents sent to the
8 commander of the Main Staff. I don't remember that we found a single
9 document, I don't remember seeing a document that was addressed to you,
10 but there were documents that were sent to Milos Djurdjic.
11 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you this because during the
12 examination-in-chief yesterday you said that you received documents
13 through me, so I'm asking you: Did the documents arrive at the addressee
14 or did they arrive in a different manner? Thank you.
15 A. The documents arrived at the Main Staff office. And the head of
16 the office would distribute them to the addressees, and if a document was
17 only addressed to the Main Staff then that was delivered to me or to
18 General Mladic, if he happened to be there.
19 I probably said that I mostly got documents from you, many of
20 those that were related to UNPROFOR. If I received any directly, I think
21 that I always consulted you about them because, in a way, you were the
22 Main Staff liaison with UNPROFOR.
23 Q. Thank you, General, sir. I'm not going to spend much time on
24 these documents. I don't have any objections. I just wanted to clarify
25 the essence and the content.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document 03972,
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yes, I was just about to ask for the document in the Serbian.
5 Well, we can see a document here. I'm just going to read the first
6 paragraph, just underneath the title, "The meeting of the joint central
7 commission report." The document is of the 2nd of First, 1995.
8 I quote: "On the 1st of January, 1995, at Sarajevo airport at
9 01200 hours, a first meeting was held of the Central Joint Commission for
10 the implementation of the agreement on end of hostilities presided over
11 by Lieutenant-General M. Rose. Michael Rose. The representative of
12 Republika Srpska army was General Zdravko Tolimir and the Muslim side was
13 represented by General Mustafa Hajrulahovic."
14 And then it states, "It was agreed at the meeting ... " and it
15 goes to say, by paragraph, exactly what was agreed at the meeting.
16 So are you able to tell the Trial Chamber if this was the first
17 meeting as it states here, and what was agreed at those meetings of the
18 joint military commission where I was a representative of the Main Staff.
19 Thank you.
20 A. I can't answer your question. This document is dated the 2nd of
21 January, when I was in Drvar. Therefore I don't know what you agreed on.
22 I only saw this document a few days ago, during proofing. I don't know
23 what was agreed upon. All I can see is that you sent this information to
24 the president of the republic. Looking at the document, it seems to me
25 to be a genuine Main Staff document. But as for its contents, that's
1 something I am unable to discuss.
2 Q. Thank you, General. In that case, I will read out item 1, in
3 order to see what was discussed at the Joint Military Commission session.
4 I'm quoting from item 1 of the first meeting following where it
5 says, "At the meeting the following was agreed":
6 "1. To establish a joint central commission which would meet
7 once a week at Sarajevo airport and to establish regional commissions
8 which would carry out tasks of the Central Joint Commissions and
9 implement on the ground the items of the agreement and tasks which have
10 been jointly agreed at the Central Joint Commissions."
11 That is to say, by consensus.
12 My question is this: Looking at the contents of item 1, can you
13 see that, at the meeting of the Central Joint Commission, it was agreed
14 on that decisions were to be made jointly and then the respective sides
15 would implement them, such as the helicopter sorties you just discussed?
16 A. General, I can only see this for the first time. I knew of the
17 existence of the Central Joint Commission. Before that, there had been
18 mixed military commissions, first at Sarajevo level, including officers
19 of the Sarajevo Corps and the 1st Muslim Corps. I know this Hajrulahovic
20 person, his nickname was Talijan.
21 When I went westward I see following that, you formed this Joint
22 Military Commission. It remained in force even following the
23 Dayton Accords for a while when I was Minister of Defence. At the time,
24 it included chiefs of General Staffs of the VRS and of the Army of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'd like to thank you for this information, because
1 I didn't know when it was formed and I don't know what its scope of
2 authority was.
3 Q. Thank you, General. Since we have this document before us, I
4 wanted to read out the second paragraph, which refers to regional
6 "The UNPROFOR command suggested that regional commissions be
7 established at UNPROFOR sector commands in Gornji Vakuf, Tuzla and
8 Sarajevo and at UNPROFOR commands in Srebrenica, Gorazde, Zepa, and Bihac
10 Can we see from this that UNPROFOR had this intention of
11 establishing regional commissions as part of its commands?
12 A. Yes. This is what I can see, and I'm surprised not to see Tuzla
13 here because Tuzla was yet another safe area.
14 Q. Thank you, General. My mistake it does say Tuzla.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... In the
16 document, you can see Gornji Vakuf, Tuzla, and Sarajevo are mentioned.
17 In the second paragraph of item 1.
18 Do you see that, sir?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Paragraph 3 reads: "Our side did not agree to the establishment
25 and operation of regional commissions within the framework of UNPROFOR
1 sector commands. Rather, we proposed that regional commissions meet at
2 suitable locations jointly agreed on between the two -- between two
3 confrontation lines and carry out the tasks issued by their superior
4 commands, as jointly agreed upon at meetings of the Central Joint
6 My question is this: Do you know whether the regional
7 commissions worked as we proposed? Meeting as needed at separation lines
8 or on one of the sides in the conflict?
9 A. I don't know whether those commissions met at separation lines.
10 I know, though that before this and after this UNPROFOR called many
11 meetings at separation lines, and we both attended one such meeting in no
12 man's land between Bratunac and Srebrenica.
13 I know that UNPROFOR frequently convened such meetings, but in
14 the territory controlled by the Federation, be it in HVO territory or
15 Muslim territory. One of the chiefs of UNPROFOR, General Van Baal once
16 called me to a meeting in the Cazina Krajina on an airport there, because
17 he wanted me to go to enemy territory which would put me straight in
18 their hands.
19 Q. Thank you. Having in mind the strategic objectives shown to you
20 today, please look at what the fourth paragraph says: "UNPROFOR command
21 had" --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... move to the
23 next page. Could we please see on the first page the headline. The top
24 of both -- both pages. And in B/C/S as well, please. The top of the
25 page, please. The top of the page, please, in B/C/S. Thank you very
2 There's a mistake in the translation. In the original we see the
3 2nd of January, 1995; and in the translation, 2nd of January 1993. But
4 it should be 1995. I just wanted to clarify that for the record.
5 Now you should continue, Mr. Tolimir.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Let's look at the last paragraph next, which is the fifth
9 paragraph on page 1.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please display it on the
11 screen for the General.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. It has to do with what you just mentioned: "The UNPROFOR's
14 command was for the Central Joint Commission to take over the
15 competencies of the commands of the parties to the conflict and to issue
16 orders to the regional commissions, while the regional commissions would
17 operate independently under the chairmanship of UNPROFOR and would carry
18 out their tasks independently at regional level."
19 My question is this: During the war, did we, in the Main Staff,
20 make -- or meet with several such UNPROFOR attempts like the one when you
21 were called to come to Bihac, and could this be considered interfering
22 with our commanding structure?
23 A. Any discussion between members of the Main Staff or any
24 conversation of mine with different Chiefs of Staff of UNPROFOR, because
25 they rotated, began with their proposal that we should include liaison
1 officers in the Main Staff, but these were supposed to be UNPROFOR
2 liaison officers. There were attempts at introducing the so-called red
3 or hot telephone lines between the warring parties. We always rejected
4 such proposals. I saw there were such attempts made even when Mladic
5 spoke to UNPROFOR commanders for Bosnia-Herzegovina or for the former
6 Yugoslavia. They always tried to achieve that. We always rejected,
7 especially once our liaison officer Slavko Guzic was driven out of
8 Bugojno. He was our liaison officer, that is to say, our representative
9 in their command. They kept him as long as he was needed and once they
10 didn't need him anymore, they tied his hands with barbed wire, put him on
11 a helicopter, and took him elsewhere. That is why we refused to have any
12 communication with them along command lines.
13 Q. Let's look at page 2 next.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I want to remind both speakers not to overlap but
15 to pause between question and answer and the next question.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. A
17 mistake was made. A part of what the General said is missing. He is --
18 the liaison officers were -- the liaison officer's hands were tied, he
19 was put on a helicopter, and then taken somewhere where he was basically
20 pushed out.
21 Can the General please repeat his answer.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please repeat that part of your answer.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Slavko Guzic was our
24 liaison officer as part of the UNPROFOR command for Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 I think he was either in Visoko or Kakanj. They kept him for as long as
1 they needed him. Once he asked for something they didn't like, they tied
2 his hands with wire instead of handcuffs. They put him on board a
3 helicopter, took him to the area of Lukavica, in the area of the
4 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command and threw him out of helicopter without
5 any explanation whatsoever. As of that moment on, it was the position of
6 the Main Staff that we no longer wanted to cooperate with them in terms
7 of positioning liaison officers. All their attempts of that sort were
8 rejected immediately.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you, General. It seems to have been my mistake that your
11 answer was not fully recorded.
12 Let's look at paragraph 2 on the next page, which describes what
13 you have just said.
14 "Our proposal was accepted to establish regional commissions
15 which would work at agreed upon locations along the confrontation lines
16 and under the orders of their own superiors ..." meaning the superiors of
17 each of the sides.
18 "By consensus, without UNPROFOR being the arbiter in the event
19 that no agreement is reached. In all those instances where an agreement
20 cannot be reached at commission level, it was agreed that the commanders
21 would meet and jointly resolve problems as they arose."
22 My question is this: Because of this negative experience with
23 Guzovic [as interpreted] and with Bihac and other examples you mentioned,
24 did we always ask that all disputes that cannot be resolved as part of
25 the commissions be resolved by the commanders of the sides? Because the
1 Muslim and Croat side always had proposals that were different to ours,
2 and these had to be agreed on at commander level. Is there anything you
3 can add to this?
4 A. This became standard practice in the General Staff. Following
5 the first joint meeting between representatives of the warring sides,
6 although I don't think you attended those negotiations in Sarajevo with
7 me; it was sometime in early 1993. Then all commanders of the warring
8 sides were called together. The meeting was chaired by General Morillon.
9 However, the Muslim side did not dispatch a proper delegation. Their
10 delegation was headed by Fikret Muslimovic who was their chief of
11 intelligence. In such circumstances our delegation refused negotiating
12 with him. To get back at me, Petkovic then refused to negotiate with me
13 because I wasn't commander of the Main Staff but his deputy.
14 General Morillon wanted to keep the meeting going, saying that it wasn't
15 important who represented the Muslims because the Muslims were supposed
16 to do as UNPROFOR decides. All in all, the meeting failed. It wasn't
17 clear who wanted what. UNPROFOR, I presume, wanted us to cease
18 activities and all of the sides had their own conditions, so nothing came
19 of it.
20 Following that, we kept fighting against UNPROFOR's unilateral
21 decisions unless there was a consensus on the different issues. I don't
22 know how much of it you recall, General, but the Main Staff, including
23 yourself sent me to the talks of -- between commanders of the warring
24 sides when the pulling out of artillery around Sarajevo was discussed.
25 General Mladic put conditions to me. He told me what things I could
1 accept and what things I was to say there. In your presence I told him,
2 General, I cannot negotiate under such terms. Negotiations mean giving
3 in a little by both sides so that we can meet halfway. If I come there
4 and dictate your requests and refuse discussing it, this would amount to
5 an ultimatum, not talks. Then a Solomonic solution was found. He told
6 me that I could do as I thought fit without endangering the combat
7 readiness of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
8 The first day of talks was chaired by General Michael Rose,
9 UNPROFOR commander for BiH. The first day, the talks failed because the
10 Muslim delegation did not show up. Rose then tried to use the same
11 argument, telling that we should keep negotiating because the Muslims
12 were expected to do as he decided. We refused to negotiate under such
13 terms, though, and we met again the next day. Again, the Muslims were
14 absent. He spent the whole afternoon chasing about Sarajevo and finally,
15 a delegation showed up headed by Jovan Divjak. Fikret Muslimovic, the
16 security guy, was again part of the delegation, and the recently removed
17 commander of the 1st Muslim Corps, Mr. Hajrulahovic, aka Talijan, was
18 there. When the talks began, I realized that the Muslim delegation had
19 no idea what they were supposed to negotiate about. When Rose told us
20 what it was that we were supposed to talk about, Divjak stood up and he
21 said, I request that the Serb artillery be withdrawn 30 kilometres from
22 Sarajevo, then I added in that I agreed. I think it was quite a surprise
23 to General Rose. He said, Wait, General, I suppose you have some
24 conditions. I said I did, and I wanted Divjak to tell me what territory
25 he wanted me to lend to him, whether it was Kalinovik or Romanija because
1 in the Sarajevo area they could not reach the appropriate depth of 30
2 kilometres. They had an elliptic shape of territory which was 22 by 17
3 kilometres and if we agreed on the 30-kilometre line they had nowhere to
4 pull out their artillery. Divjak fell silent following that and their
5 delegations didn't speak anymore. We concluded the meeting and General
6 Rose and I agreed that their artillery should be pulled out to 20
7 kilometres, knowing full well that they did not even have those 20
8 kilometres in Sarajevo. In exchange for that, since they were superior
9 to us in infantry terms, I demanded that their infantry be withdrawn into
10 the barracks. It was accepted at the meeting but was never implemented.
11 We pulled out our artillery pieces but their infantry remained at the
12 front line.
13 That was the reason why you probably included into this report
14 that we should not under any conditions accept decisions reached by
15 UNPROFOR that would follow a failure of consensus between the warring
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Milovanovic, you talked at length about some
18 meetings with UNPROFOR. Can you tell us the date when these meetings
19 have taken place?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first meeting I talked about
21 was a meeting between the warring parties held, I think, in March 1993.
22 At that meeting or with that meeting, the UNPROFOR's intention was to
23 demonstrate who the warring parties are. FRY delegation was also
24 invited. We refused to have that -- I told --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry to interrupt you. You talked about that at
1 length. I just wanted to know when all this happened. We need the date.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first meeting was in early
3 March. I can't recall the exact date. Early March of 1993.
4 The second meeting about pullout of artillery away from Sarajevo
5 was 8th and 9th of February, 1994.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification.
7 Mr. Tolimir.
8 Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.
9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a small intervention.
10 Page 58, line 2, I think the witness said that Fikret Muslimovic was a
11 security man, so from the security service, and in the transcript we see
12 "chief of intelligence".
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Milovanovic, could you clarify that? To
14 which unit does this person belong?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All security organs, beginning with
16 the chief of sector, chief of security sector, and all the way to the
17 lowest ranking officers, we used to call security men. Fikret Muslimovic
18 was chief of security service of the so-called BH army. He was the main
19 security man of the so-called BH army, the Muslim army.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 Mr. Tolimir. You have three minutes left before the break.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 In those three minutes we will have time to look at document
24 03974, 65 ter document, we can show how the joint commissions functioned
25 and I would also like to tender the one we have on the screen at the
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3972 shall be
4 assigned exhibit number D249. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. General, we see on our screens a document dated 5th of January.
8 The one before was dated 1st of January. And this is a document in
9 relation to the second meeting of the joint commission. We will not read
10 the conclusions. I just want to show you second paragraph where it is
11 stated that the Sarajevo Regional Joint Commission will arrange the map
12 of lines of contact as it was on the 9th of February, 1994.
13 It says under number 3: "Joint regional commissions will prepare
14 a plan for establishing, monitoring posts along the line of contact."
15 At following meetings of the joint commission, decisions were
16 reached with a purpose of establishing cease of hostilities as it was
17 agreed as well by the agreement on cease of hostilities that had been
18 agreed upon sometime before.
19 A. I am afraid I didn't understand your question fully. I will try
20 and provide an answer and if I go awry, could you please reformulate your
22 Q. May be best if I repeat my question.
23 Can we see that these meetings were held every week, in
24 accordance to what the first document stated. And can we also see that
25 the central commission was issuing tasks to regional commissions as we
1 can see here in items 1, 2 and 3. Can you give us a brief answer?
2 A. Yes, this does show the continuity of work of the central joint
3 commission from the moment it was established onwards.
4 Q. I apologise --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,
6 I stopped you because you are overlapping again.
7 And I have to make two corrections -- one addition and one
8 correction. You mentioned the date of this document but you left out the
9 year. It is from 1995. And you said the previous document was from the
10 1st of January, but, in fact, it was from the 2nd of January, 1995.
11 I think now is a convenient time for our second break. We have
12 to adjourn and resume at 1.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, before you continue, I would like to
16 ask you about a reference to the examination-in-chief. At the moment, I
17 think you are dealing with events in 1992, 1993, 1994. I don't recall
18 anything of that sort during examination-in-chief.
19 Could you give us a -- any explanation to that? Because I didn't
20 understand that yet.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 I started my cross-examination by tendering a document dated 1st
23 of January, 1995 -- 1995. And what I'm trying to prove is that, had this
24 been abided by, we wouldn't have all the events that happened in
25 Srebrenica and Zepa later on. This is why I'm trying to introduce the
1 document in question.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on your cross-examination.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. We've seen two documents so far, from 1995, both of them from
6 January 1995. The topic discussed in the documents is the joint
7 commission and regional joint commissions that should have been the basis
8 for truce.
9 I would like to show you now the document -- or, rather --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I please tender
11 both of these documents.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document, 65 ter 3972, was already admitted
13 into evidence, as D249.
14 And now we have -- if I'm not mistaken, 65 ter 3974 on the
15 screen. We don't see an English translation. Therefore, it will be
16 marked for identification, pending translation.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3974 shall be
18 assigned exhibit number D250, marked for identification pending
19 translation. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Can we please have 03971 on the screen. It's a 65 ter number.
22 Thank you.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. General, we've been discussing the activities of the central
25 military commission that was established in Bosnia and Herzegovina after
1 the agreement on cessation of hostilities. Before us is now a document
2 issued by the commands of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps dated 2nd of
3 January, 1995. They are informing us about their activities and the
4 title of the document is "A Report from the Meeting of the Regional
6 In the first paragraph we can see that on that day, in the
7 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps a regional commission was -- a meeting of the
8 commission was held, chaired by General Gobillard. And in the signature,
9 we can see that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was represented by the chief
10 of the corps, and we can see that on the following page,
11 Mr. Cedo Sladoje.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to page 1 to
13 see the text on page 1. Thank you.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. In the heading, we can see that it was sent to the Main Staff,
16 personally to General Tolimir. And then we have a report on the
17 activities of the commission because the central military commission was
18 scheduled to meet within a week and therefore regional commissions were
19 supposed to report on their activities.
20 Can you please tell us who General Gobillard was and whether all
21 the corps and all commands functioned according to this same principle,
22 at least when regional commissions are the issue? Thank you.
23 A. From the document, I can see that General Gobillard was UNPROFOR
24 commander of the Sarajevo sector. I haven't met him personally.
25 Furthermore, I can see from the document that the regional commission is
1 reporting to you, who was the representative of the Main Staff in the
2 central commission. I did know some of the Sector Sarajevo commanders,
3 Soubirou, for instance, then a Russian officer, I think he was Chief of
4 Staff, either a Russian or a Ukrainian Demurenko. I haven't seen any
5 other documents by any other regional commissions. I'm expecting to see
6 them. But this document demonstrates that the regional commissions, that
7 our representatives in the regional commissions were reporting to you
8 personally, because you were our representative in the central
10 Q. Thank you. Please read the sixth paragraph from the top, the
11 first word is: "After a lengthy discussion and attempts by the Muslim
12 side to avoid specifying conditions for abiding by the agreement, finally
13 it was agreed that the Muslim side -- forces will return -- will withdraw
14 from the demilitarised zone by the 1200 hours on the 4th January 1995.
15 General Gobillard and his staff will carry out an inspection of the
16 demilitarised zone in the afternoon hours on the 4th of January, 1995.
17 At the following meeting of the regional commission on the 5th of
18 January, 1995, UNPROFOR will submit a report and agreement will be made
19 about when the inspection of the demilitarised zone will be carried out
20 by the joint commission."
21 Could you tell me which demilitarized zone is discussed here, on
22 the basis of the report, and whether what had been agreed with the
23 cessation of hostilities at the meeting of the regional commission in
24 Sarajevo was abided by?
25 A. I would like to, General, but I cannot answer your question. I
1 wasn't present, first of all. Secondly, I wasn't familiar with the
2 functioning of the central commission. I can only say that this document
3 is a valid document. It is in keeping with the regulations and the laws.
4 I cannot speak to the facts presented in the document, whether they are
5 correct or not.
6 Q. Thank you. General, can we please read the last paragraph of the
7 document, or on this page. "Our delegation insisted that the agreement
8 reached on the 14th of August 1993 is fully abided by because that would
9 make sure not only that the Muslim forces would withdraw from the
10 demilitarized zone but also from the areas to the east of the
11 demilitarized zone to the west border of the demilitarized zone that was
12 determined on the 14th of August, 1993."
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... still
14 listening to the translation. Please slow down. [Microphone not
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. "Karavelic tried to make it possible that we carry out
19 demilitarization of the demilitarized zone, that only UNPROFOR can do
21 Can you, on the basis of the document, tell us which
22 demilitarized zone this is referring to, and whether the Muslims actually
23 implemented what was agreed upon, and were they ready to make sure that
24 the Serbs can act also in accordance to the agreement.
25 Do you remember what this is all about at all?
1 A. Based on the document itself, I cannot tell you what the
2 delimitations of this zone were. I can only assume that this was an area
3 surrounding Sarajevo. But I don't know the borders of the zone. I can
4 comment, nevertheless, on the positions of the Muslim side.
5 Earlier, when we were trying to delineate the safety zones or
6 demilitarized zones for which agreements had been signed by the
7 commanders of the warring parties, which is in the keeping with the
8 Geneva Conventions, and I'm talking about Srebrenica, Zepa, and, later,
9 Gorazde, where the two warring parties' commanders signed an agreement,
10 on that occasion, they agreed that UNPROFOR would guarantee whether the
11 zones had been or had not been demilitarised. Both for Srebrenica and
12 Zepa, because I'm familiar with those two, we believed UNPROFOR's trick,
13 their ruse. There was even a joint commission that was tasked with
14 determining whether Srebrenica was demilitarised or not, and they
15 reported to us that Muslims handed over, I think, 900 barrels in Zepa and
16 1200 barrels in Srebrenica. The mixed commission tried to verify the
17 information received from UNPROFOR. It was possible at the time. But --
18 and, yes, these barrels were found, but it was obsolete weapons,
19 improvised weapons that we used to call "fear of Serbs". It was
20 something made provisionally by using lead pipes, and it could have been
21 used only once. We -- from October 1994, we did not recognise it
22 anymore, because, on that day, the UN Security Council declared another
23 three safe areas, Tuzla, Sarajevo, and Bihac.
24 We were informed by UNPROFOR that the 5th Muslim Corps was
25 disarmed, that all of three brigades that made up the corps were
1 disarmed. We did not verify that. However, a year and a half later, the
2 5th Muslim Corps attacked the VRS from the very demilitarized zone.
3 There was about 22.000 troops grouped into eight or nine brigades, and at
4 their disposal they had state-of-the-art infantry weapons. It was the
5 first time when I saw Singapore rifles in use. In other words, UNPROFOR
6 lied to VRS when saying that they were disarmed because, in the meantime,
7 the corps was additionally armed, trained, and replenished. So we
8 stopped believing UNPROFOR, and we insisted whenever there were local
9 agreement on either demilitarization or cessation of hostilities, that we
10 should participate on that, as you can see the Muslims were against it,
11 because they believed that UNPROFOR will confirm whatever they tell them.
12 Q. Thank you, General.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
14 document. It is relevant in relation to events in Sarajevo later on, and
15 the offensive in Sarajevo later on, because it involves supply of weapons
16 to the Muslims in Sarajevo.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification, pending
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3971 shall be
20 assigned exhibit number D251, marked for identification, pending
21 translation. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Can we see now in e-court 65 ter 003970. Thank you.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And while we're waiting - we'll see it in a moment - this is a
1 document by the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska of the 2nd of
2 January, 1995, sent to the Sarajevo UNPROFOR command. I signed the
3 document, and it refers to the document that the Prosecutor showed when
4 we were comparing initials on the document where I had written "no."
5 And let us look to the first quote: "At a meeting of the Joint
6 Central Committee held on 1 January 1995 at the Sarajevo airport it was
7 not agreed that UNPROFOR aircrafts and personnel would travel unannounced
8 and without permission from the party on whose territory they would be
10 Item 5 of the agreement on a complete cease of all enemy
11 activities signed on 31st December 1994 provides for the free movement of
12 UNPROFOR according to the relevant procedure which implies prior
13 notification and permission of movement."
14 My question is: Did we, or the Main Staff - I apologise for
15 saying "we" - always take care to respect all of the agreements that were
16 relevant in a given situation and in respect of a given activity; and did
17 it always inform UNPROFOR about it, as I did in this document? Thank
19 A. Yes, that was the duty of all members of the Main Staff, in all
20 contacts, either with UNPROFOR or with representatives of the warring
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
24 document so that we could call up the next one.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3970 shall be
2 assigned exhibit number D252. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D77. Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. We're about to see the document that refers to the principles for
6 freedom of movement. The document was signed by UNPROFOR and the
7 Main Staff and it's dated 1st of January, 1995, precisely at the time
8 when the cease-fire and cessation of hostilities were being set.
9 Can we now look at the first paragraph of this document on the
10 principles for freedom of movement.
11 "These principles define the appropriate procedures regarding
12 freedom of movement, as stated in paragraph 5 of the agreement on the
13 complete cessation of hostilities signed on the 31st of December, 1994.
14 These principles specifically refer to UNPROFOR movements on Serb-held
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at item 5 that this
17 item 1 refers to which states, I quote, item 5 from this agreement which
18 is on the following page. Thank you. Can the witness please be shown
19 the following page?
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Item 5 refers to aircraft: "UNPROFOR helicopters will enjoy
22 freedom of movement after notification on the announced and approved
23 route of flying. There will be a check on the ground on -- at an agreed
25 This agreement was signed in Lukavica on 31st of January 1995 by
1 General Brinkman and Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.
2 My question to the witness is: Did we always not try to respect
3 all procedures agreed on with UNPROFOR about the movement of their
4 aircraft and that we prevented that when the framework of the agreement
5 was violated?
6 A. I state with full responsibility that the Army of
7 Republika Srpska always respected the agreement -- rather, those
8 agreements, which I cannot say specifically for the UNPROFOR generals.
9 They often violated deadlines or sought something that was not
10 permissible, even according to our regulations. Again, I have to mention
11 General Van Baal. Once he asked me for permission to transfer by
12 helicopter to Gorazde 80 litres of fuel. The Gorazde enclave. I
13 answered that I cannot approve that because our regulations do not allow
14 the transport of fuel in aircraft outside of the actual fuel tanks of the
15 aircraft. He got angry with me, thinking that I -- I was not willing to
16 allow him to transport fuel. Then I said, All right, General, you can
17 transport it, but let that be at your own responsibility. And this is
18 what I wrote down that they can transport the fuel with the
19 responsibility for that being borne by the UNPROFOR command, wishing to
20 avoid the helicopter from blowing up in the air or something.
21 Other than that, UNPROFOR did not respect all the agreements. I
22 think setting off from the position of the stronger party. They did not
23 respect the required prior announcement times. This was always cut
24 short. They didn't respect the bills of lading that -- of cargos that
25 were being transported into the enclaves. They would send us a list of
1 material. The check-point - I can see here, that you had agreed that
2 there would be only one check-point at the -- in the territory of
3 Republika Srpska - would find something completely different, then we
4 would turn them back. We would stop them, they would be accusing us of
5 this and that.
6 So looking at this document, General, sir, you are correct, and
7 as far as those who are not correct are concerned they can seek
8 clarification, if they are interested.
9 Q. All right, General. Thank you. Can we now again look at that
10 document P223 [as interpreted] and can we see page 46 of that document.
11 After that, we're going to look at page 60, just so that we can see that
12 we are talking about agreed-upon procedures. Thank you. And when you
13 see the contents of the document, you are going to give us your comment.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,
16 are you referring to the document P2233?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. P2233, page
18 46. Thank you.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. We are looking at the document now. And we can see that a
21 helicopter flight is sought to be approved, and Gvero's end approval and
22 my approval are being asked for. I said yes because this was agreed upon
23 at the joint military commission.
24 But here where it says "no," those are not my initials there. My
25 initials are next to the word "da," yes, and then somebody crossed it
1 out. So can we see here that I did approve and proposed to the commander
2 of the Main Staff that these things be approved, pursuant to what was
3 agreed at the joint commission? And did we not, the two of us, you and
4 I, always agree to respect the agreements made with UNPROFOR because this
5 was something that was decided during our joint meetings and this was
6 something that was agreed at that time? Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,
8 before we receive the answer of the witness, I have a problem with the
9 way you are putting this question to the witness. If you reflect on the
10 words you have used, it is more testimony of a witness but you are not
11 testifying here in the courtroom. You may ask the witness if he would
12 agree to something, but this was slightly different, the way you put
13 this -- your knowledge about this document to the witness. Please bear
14 that in mind for future questions.
15 Sir, would you please answer the question?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I can
17 re-phrase the question because we were talking about the situation and
18 not about how --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... that was --
20 it was just kind of guidance, and that's fine. You should bear that in
21 mind for future questions.
22 And now, the witness, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this document was shown to me.
24 It was on the screen during the examination-in-chief, and it was unclear
25 to whom this "no" belongs to. I assume that the initials are those of
1 Milan Gvero, who crossed out your "yes" -- well, that is in keeping with
2 the agreement made at the central commission, that "yes" of yours. But
3 the "no" was probably done out of lack of information or ignorance and
4 you had offices next to each other, so I don't know why you didn't agree
5 on it.
6 I don't know who crossed out your "yes."
7 There are two options: One, that it was General Mladic who
8 crossed it out when he saw Gvero's "no". Because if you remember, I said
9 today that Mladic did not get anything from your opinion. One was for
10 and one was against. So he was in the same dilemma that he was in before
11 he got the document back. So I can just assume that this "no" was
12 crossed out by Gvero automatically, which he did not have the right to
14 I can conclude also that perhaps Mladic crossed it out, that he
15 preferred Gvero's "no," that the mission is not approved, and, as you
16 know, Mladic obvious had the habit of taking revenge on those who were
17 not sticking to agreements. So if UNPROFOR was not sticking to
18 agreements then Mladic probably was more inclined to Gvero's "no" than to
19 your "yes". But all of these are just assumptions. I shouldn't be
20 speculating. I was not an eye-witness. So all of this you can just
21 simply consider as being left without an answer.
22 Q. Thank you, General. Let's look at the upper left-hand side
23 corner of the document to see what it says.
24 And does it say, "on the approval of commander"? Has this been
25 implemented in keeping with the commander's decision, in your view.
1 A. Well, you see, it is true that in the Latin script it says, "yes,
2 on commander's approval." I believe that this is your handwriting. But
3 the initials resemble Mladic's. And yet the pen seems to be the same.
4 It is confusing, to say the least.
5 You are best placed to tell us whether this is, indeed, your
7 Q. General, since I cannot put such proposals before this Chamber, I
8 would simply kindly ask you to pick up a red pen to circle "yes" and the
9 note, because the note was not translated.
10 A. So you want me to circle this "yes" and "on commander's
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait. The court usher will assist you
13 before you try to mark it.
14 Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And just want to make sure the General
16 understands that we are always open for agreement on facts and I think at
17 any point in time that can be done. The General can agree without having
18 to testify whether something is his initials or whether he did something,
19 in my view, as long as he doesn't go into testimonial situations.
20 So if that is what he wants to do, we are open to that. And, of
21 course, that is appropriate in this system, as -- as I know Mr. Gajic
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, this is an invitation to negotiate about
24 agreed facts.
25 Sir, would you now please encircle what Mr. Tolimir asked you.
1 He asked you to circle "yes" in the note. Below the word "yes."
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 Mr. Tolimir.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Please place "MM" next to it so that we would know it was you.
8 Place the initials on the circle you drew, not on the contents.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. For the record, I wanted to state that
11 General Milovanovic merely circled something that was written by someone
12 else. The words are "yes, on commander's approval."
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have P2233 again.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please, first are you tendering the document with
15 the marking?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document with the marking will be received as
18 an exhibit.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, page 46 of Exhibit P2233 shall be
20 assigned exhibit number D253. Just for clarification, page was marked by
21 the witness in court. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we do have the originals of these,
25 that, as you recall that the General had actually seen when he made his
1 markings and sometimes the different ink colour comes out in those. So I
2 will those available. I mean, we are about to end, just so the General
3 and Mr. Gajic know, we will try to make those available because that may
4 add to what is being testified to.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
6 Mr. Tolimir.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have page 60
8 of the document P2233. Thank you. We'll go through it quickly because
9 we have seen it before.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You can see it now. You marked something. The upper note, was
12 it written by the person who implemented the obligations of the VRS
13 regarding the announcement of this helicopter flight which was also
14 supposed to include a VRS representative from Titov Drvar?
15 A. I did not understand the question at all. Please rephrase it.
16 Are you asking me whether the handwriting is the same as on the
17 previous document? I'm sorry, I don't understand.
18 Q. Thank you. I'll be happy to.
19 I'm not interested in the handwriting, because I do not dispute
20 handwritings and signatures. I'm only interested in the contents.
21 Looking at the contents, is it clear that the helicopter was supposed to
22 land in Drvar to pick up a VRS representative? And was it announced,
23 there was a Colonel Tomanovic in question, I believe, and was the
24 helicopter to continue to Banja Luka? It doesn't matter who rode it.
25 A. General Kelecevic learned of this at 10.05, and Colonel Tomanovic
1 was informed at 12.20.
2 Q. Thank you, General.
3 Thank you, Aleksandar. I thought it says 12.05 next to
4 Kelecevic's name, but it doesn't matter whether it's a 10 or a 12. I
5 accept what you say.
6 Could we look at the bottom of the document now.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there an English translation available? There
8 is no English translation.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, can you see that, underneath your marking, it reads:
13 "The meeting was arranged in Titov Drvar" -- it's supposed to land in
14 Drvar on a playground. And Pandzic is supposed to determine the
16 Does this mean that the arrangement on the landing of the
17 helicopter was implemented and was the agreement with UNPROFOR honoured
18 as such, and is that the reason why the document was initialed by the
20 I'll reformulate. In this proposal, which you said was mine,
21 does it read: "The meeting is arranged. They are to land in Titov Drvar
22 on a playground, and Pandzic is supposed to determine the coordinates."
23 Was this a proposal made to the commander as to what was agreed
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, now we have a problem. The document
2 was tendered by the Prosecution for the purpose of identifying initials
3 and signatures and handwritten -- and handwriting but not for the
5 If you are going to deal with the content of these documents, we
6 need an English translation. Otherwise, we will not understand the
7 content of it. So I would kindly ask you to tender these documents,
8 again, as a Defence document, and we will then decide if it should be
9 marked for identification, pending translation, so that we have a full
10 picture of that.
11 Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I do intend to have these
13 fully translated so that you can see the content. Because content, you
14 know, could be important. I just was not planning on having this
15 witness, through direct, talk about content, but content is -- does have
16 relevance and is important, and we will endeavour to get these
17 translated, the ones where the General has -- has marked.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that. I would like to invite both
19 parties to negotiate about the best way to deal with the translation
21 Mr. Gajic.
22 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these are OTP
23 documents. We do not have English translations. We have not received
24 them. They did not receive them either. The OTP probably believes --
25 these important -- documents to be important because they offered so many
1 of them for tendering and because they introduced certain markings that
2 the witness made regards the initials. We have a few more questions
3 about the contents, about the document. Hopefully it won't be too long,
4 but we will need another 20 minutes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We must adjourn for the day because we are at the
6 end of today's hearing. We --
7 Mr. Tolimir.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 We accept your proposal, and we propose that it be tendered on
10 behalf of the Defence as well, regards the contents. Because the
11 initials are not a pure formality. They always have to be read within
12 the context.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, I would like to invite both parties to
14 negotiate about the translation issue. We come back to this problem
15 tomorrow because we have to continue with the cross-examination with this
16 witness tomorrow.
17 Could you indicate how much time you will need during your
18 further examination, cross-examination? Because we received different
19 messages at the beginning of cross-examination and now by Mr. Gajic.
20 What is your estimation?
21 I think it is necessary for the Prosecution to plan the further
23 Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a small correction. I
25 wanted to say that we will take some 20 minutes on these documents but we
1 will need more time than that for other matters as well.
2 If I may quickly consult with the accused.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 This time I want to ask the witness as well, since this is the
5 last day before the weekend except tomorrow. If he really needs to go
6 home, I will adjust my questions accordingly. We prepared our
7 examination based on the Prosecutor's estimate, according to which, he
8 was to examine the witness for three days. If the witness wishes to go
9 home tomorrow, so as not to spend the weekend in The Hague, I will adjust
10 my questions accordingly, so as to allow for some time for the Prosecutor
11 as well, if they want to examine the witness.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To clarify the situation, the Prosecution had
13 indicated 12 hours. They used in fact four hours and 55 minutes. That
14 means nearly five hours, quite less than indicated earlier.
15 You have used, up to now, one hour and 22 minutes. It is your
16 right to cross-examine and I just wanted to inquire your estimation for
17 the time you will need for the witness. This is important for planning
18 purposes. We have the full day tomorrow. And the Prosecution has the
19 right to re-examine the witness.
20 Do you need the full session tomorrow or what is your position?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 I can tell you, but I would like to take the witness's opinion
23 into account. If he wishes to leave, I will cut my questions short
24 tomorrow and conclude my cross-examination, and then I will use another
25 witness to introduce some questions I had prepared, according to the time
1 estimate by the Prosecution.
2 I would kindly ask for the witness to state his position for me
3 to be able to give you my estimate so that we can conclude with him
4 tomorrow safely.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I appreciate to get an answer from the witness,
6 but, to make it very clear, it is the obligation of the witness to stay
7 here as long as he is needed for cross-examination and re-examination.
8 Mr. Milovanovic, what are your plans and obligations?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I'm
10 concerned, there is no time limitation.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We adjourn now, and we will
12 resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of May,
16 2011, at 9.00 a.m.