Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14499

 1                           Tuesday, 24 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and

 6     to those who are listening to these procedures.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, you -- the witness should be brought in, please, and

 8     then you may continue your cross-examination.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Take your earphones, please, so that I can

11     address you.

12             Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome back to the courtroom.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day, thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell

15     the truth you made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.

16                           WITNESS:  ZORAN PETROVIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

19             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

21     God's peace reign in this house and may God's will, not mine, be done in

22     these proceedings.

23             And I also want to welcome Dr. Petrovic again.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Let us continue.  We had a few questions left.

Page 14500

 1     It is unfortunate that you had to stay just forever that, but I'm sure

 2     that the Prosecutor will have some questions for you as well.

 3             Yesterday on page 45, today it's 14427 to 429 [Realtime

 4     transcript read in error "2429"], you spoke about Colonel Bunel.  You

 5     said that he's an officer of the French intelligence service and that he

 6     told you some information about activities he had observed in Tuzla in

 7     relation to how American soldiers were treating Muslims.

 8             Could you please tell us whether there were other journalists

 9     there who saw this, did he find that out from others about the situation,

10     and was it even allowed to write and talk about this event?

11        A.   General, sir, as I was saying yesterday, it's -- it was an

12     interview that was published in magazine "Europa" in 2006; that was my

13     second conversation with him two years prior to that.  I also interviewed

14     him in Paris and that was also published.  And then for the second

15     interview I sent my questions to him by Internet and in response he was

16     informing me that - and you will understand it, of course, because you're

17     also an intelligence officer - he informed me that there were no

18     journalists.  And I'm sure that if he would be summoned here, he would

19     repeat that story.  I also promised the Prosecutor that upon my return to

20     Belgrade I will send the French part of the text -- oh, I can send the

21     entire text, but this part where events in Tuzla are discussed.  And I

22     must say, Mr. Bunel could not take part.  Even the English officers were

23     not allowed to be present at interrogation of the completely exhausted

24     soldiers who managed to get to Tuzla after several months and then were

25     transferred to the United States.

Page 14501

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I would like to ask you to slow down while

 2     reading.  You are very fast, and it is very problematic for the

 3     interpreters to catch everything you were talking.

 4             Mr. Gajic.

 5             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President.  On page 2,

 6     line 2, references were wrongly written.  The main -- the direct

 7     interrogation, the direct examination, pages were 14427 to 14429.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that clarification.  This

 9     should remind you, Mr. Tolimir, to slow down while referring to a page

10     number.  It's always very difficult to catch that.

11             Now please continue, and try to avoid overlapping.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, could you also send the same document not only to

15     the Prosecutor but also to the Chamber and myself, this document, because

16     it was discussed here in the proceedings.

17             You told us that these people went to the United States to a city

18     called Richmond.  Did I get that right?  And do you have any further

19     information about it?  Thank you.

20        A.   Before I answer, I first of all want to apologise to the

21     Presiding Judge and the interpreters.  I will do my best to slow down.

22             The information, various information, I received only later from

23     people from the diaspora who lived in Richmond at the time, and I managed

24     to reconstruct the situation basing it on the time when Izetbegovic

25     soldiers first reached Tuzla and then went to the United States.  I

Page 14502

 1     managed to conclude that these are most probably the said fighters.

 2             Unfortunately, General, sir, no one from Republika Srpska, from

 3     your army, wanted to assist us and send a cameraman and a journalist to

 4     do some investigative journalism and show images or footage of all these

 5     events.  I am certain about the correctness of this piece of information,

 6     but I did not see those people who are there.  Bunel told me that after

 7     interrogating them, the Americans transferred those people to the

 8     United States, as far as I remember.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.  Could you please tell us whether Bunel,

10     at the time when the men were being interrogated in Tuzla and their

11     departure later for United States, was Bunel at the time an active

12     officer of the French intelligence service?  Thank you.

13        A.   General, sir, yes.  He was active-duty military intelligence

14     officer until he was arrested for allegedly assisting the Serbs.  This

15     was -- this arrest was a premeditated arrest by the French government

16     because later on he was rehabilitated and got a job as a commentator on

17     French state radio but did not return to active-duty service.  So this

18     was in 1996, in spring of 1996, the events he told me about.  And then

19     for the next three years he was still intelligence colonel of the French

20     army.

21        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

23     1D77.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And then I'll put a question to you.  We'll wait for the

Page 14503

 1     document.  Thank you.  [Microphone not activated]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you need your microphone.

 4     Otherwise, you will not be recorded.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   We can now see 1D77.  Please, Dr. Petrovic, take a look at what's

 8     on the screen and tell me, is this the text you told us about and that

 9     you had published in magazine "Europa"?  And is this a reflection of the

10     words of Mr. Bunel?

11        A.   General, sir, your team is very quick and Internet makes it

12     possible.  Yes, this paragraph was on the Internet.  I know that.  And

13     this is one segment of the interview conducted with Colonel Bunel.  And

14     let me correct myself immediately.  It was published in Europa in 2005,

15     it seems here.  I still believe it was in 2006, but it is possible that

16     it was published in 2005.  I don't have the text here on me.  And I made

17     it in late 2004.  This is most probably correct, but it's just a

18     technical error.  My apologies, I promised I would send the entire text

19     to all the parties upon my return to Belgrade.  I do not have it here,

20     unfortunately.

21        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.  So this is an excerpt from this text.

22     I would be grateful if you would send all the parties the entire text.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

24     document until we have the entire text, and then we can move on.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this the only page of this document,

Page 14504

 1     Mr. Tolimir?

 2             Mr. Gajic.

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  This document

 4     consists of only one page.  There is a translation of the document.  I

 5     have it in e-court.  I don't know why it is not on the screen.  We can

 6     check that later, of course.

 7             I would like to remind you that the document was used during

 8     cross-examination of Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, with your leave, the document that

10     is attached to this original one, the translation, needs to be released

11     only in e-court.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this is an obligation of the Defence.

13             We await with our decision until we have seen the translation.

14             You may continue, Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, yesterday, on page 14459 to 460, you told us that

18     bin Laden was observed in Sarajevo.  And you mentioned the name of a

19     female journalist, but we didn't see the surname in the transcript.  You

20     said the name was Renata, but not the surname.

21             Could you please tell us what year was it, and what was the name,

22     the full name, of the journalist, and who -- which journalists were those

23     who saw bin Laden drinking coffee on Igman?

24        A.   General, first of all, let me apologise to the Presiding Judge

25     because when mentioning the name yesterday, I mentioned - and later on I

Page 14505

 1     was sorry but now I have a chance to correct this - that this was a

 2     reporter for Stern, but she was actually working for Der Spiegel and she

 3     was the famous reporter, at least in our country, for many years for

 4     Der Spiegel from Yugoslavia, and it's Renate Flottau [Realtime transcript

 5     read in error "Vlottau"]; that is her name.  In my book, I quote her, the

 6     book which I also mentioned during yesterday's examination.  "Al-Qaeda

 7     and the Green Comintern Against the Judeo-Christian Civilisation,"

 8     published in 2002 in Belgrade.

 9             I had heard this before, and she admitted that while waiting on

10     two consecutive days for President Izetbegovic on the premise of his

11     offices in the Presidency in Sarajevo during the war, she saw there

12     bin Laden whom she described in the following terms:  She had the

13     impression that he was another silly type, and you could see many of

14     these during the war who had come from all parts of the world.  And she

15     didn't pay much attention to his story at the time, but she said that she

16     knew that this was Osama bin Laden, who, having arrived to the office and

17     having entered the room where Mr. Izetbegovic was, could perhaps be the

18     best illustration of what I know about Islamism in the territory of the

19     former Yugoslavia and about which no Western journalists practically ever

20     talked about, except in some -- on some rare occasions.

21             I wish to repeat once again a very important detail in connection

22     with this, something else that can be found in my book.  Mrs. Flottau

23     says that she did not consider it important to write a text or make an

24     interview with him and that even had she done that, the then editors

25     would not have published that.  I remember her telling this to me

Page 14506

 1     personally.

 2             And as for Izetbegovic, he probably discussed the El Mujahid

 3     brigade with him which was a well-known spear-head unit which was

 4     financed by Osama bin Laden during the war in Bosnia.  The name of

 5     al-Qaeda was not used in public at the time.  Not yet.  However, the

 6     group was already operational and Osama bin Laden had some bases in

 7     Albania.  There is proof about this, the Americans know it, all

 8     intelligence services of the world know the information that as many as

 9     500 men were ready at any given time at the training camp in Albania and

10     later on for the events in Kosova and Metohija.

11             I could talk a lot about that, but let me not keep you with this.

12        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.  Can you please check whether the name

13     of Ms. Renate Flottau has been correctly transcribed in the record, and

14     can you tell us which year she talked about when she said that

15     Osama bin Laden had visited Mr. Izetbegovic in Sarajevo, if you can

16     remember?

17        A.   I cannot remember whether it was 1993 or 1994.  But at the time,

18     from the beginning of the war and onwards, there were many from

19     Saudi Arabia, as the Croatians can confirm today, used to arrive into

20     Bosnia mainly via Split.  There were many Islamic volunteers, the

21     Afghan fighters, under quotation marks, as they are sometimes called,

22     used to enter Bosnia through Croatian in order to fight the Serbs.

23             There is a lot of evidence about that today, but that is not

24     directly the subject that we're dealing with here.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please look at page 8, line 9, and

Page 14507

 1     check if this is the right spelling of the family name of Ms. Flottau.

 2     Or do you know the correct spelling?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just let me -- it's spelt with an F

 4     rather than with a V.  Flottau, F-l-o-t-a-u [as interpreted].  F like

 5     "Frankreich."

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             Mr. Tolimir carry on, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.  Please, as this is radical fighting

11     Islam, and you said that in Podravanje in 1993 a man was roasted on the

12     spit, a Serbian soldier, you said that on page 43 of the transcript, in

13     line 25, can you please just tell us something about it, because you have

14     written a book about al-Qaeda.  Can you tell us something about the

15     radical combat Islamic morale during the war in Bosnia, which surfaced in

16     the territory, if you wrote about that in your book.

17             You probably know this and then you could tell us something and

18     then later on I might ask additional questions.  Thank you.

19        A.   General, first of all, another clarification about the man who

20     was roasted on the spit.  I never saw that.  I saw a photograph which I

21     published in a book, a book dealing with the beginnings of the war in

22     Bosnia.  And this remains etched on my memory.  I think that the date is

23     the 29th of August, 1992, and that this happened in the village

24     Podravanje, in the vicinity of Srebrenica.  I'm not even certain whether

25     that man had been a soldier, but maybe just an inhabitant of that place,

Page 14508

 1     born in 1958 and killed in a most horrible manner imaginable today.

 2             It's something that entails reviving methods of warfare from

 3     medieval times or even earlier.  It was an act committed by one of these

 4     Afghan fighters, under quotation marks.

 5             So the most seasoned fighters for UMA, that's the international

 6     Islamic community.  This is the UMA of Osama bin Laden and

 7     Iman Auzaba Hiri [phoen], his ideologue, as I described in my book.  It

 8     means that there can be no agreement with Christians, no agreement with

 9     the Jews, but, rather, eternal struggle against him until UMA is to be

10     established on the entire planet.  It's a utopian concept, but it

11     provides sufficient motive for new generations of young people throughout

12     the world.  And as I wrote in my book, and as I mentioned yesterday, this

13     option Islamism is the line which resulted in Osama bin Laden having

14     become their Che Guevara, which he has been for a number of years now.

15     The force of the name is similar among the youngest generation of Muslims

16     from Indonesia through to Bosnia.

17             In order to show how important and decisive this is, and it

18     follows from all the analyses of the civil war, I will provide an example

19     and you will know better than me, General.  August and September 1994, or

20     is it 1995? - please help me - the bombing of Ozren which lasted for

21     about two weeks and this was carried out by the NATO pact.  The Serbian

22     fighters had secured and entrenched themselves well in Ozren, and it was

23     not possible to approach them.  They, under quotation marks, resolved the

24     situation but using NATO aircraft, after which -- and they were using

25     depleted uranium bombs similar to those which were used when bombing the

Page 14509

 1     FR Yugoslavia in 1999, so it had already been used earlier in Bosnia and

 2     you know in how many places.  And what followed then was the perverse

 3     finale of the operation when the members of the El Mujahid brigade which

 4     was financed and whose superior commander was Osama bin Laden finished

 5     the job and killed the survivors, cut off their heads.  There is a

 6     video-tape which the Americans broadcast for the first time only after

 7     9/11, that is to say, after the catastrophe in New York City.  They did

 8     not want to broadcast this earlier.  You can see the heads rolling and

 9     the propaganda action filmed by El Mujahid.  Just imagine the NATO pact

10     cooperating with the El Mujahid brigade in the Ozren brigade.  Hardly

11     anyone could deny what I have just said today.

12             It's interesting for the Prosecution and for the Bench, General,

13     that there were many similar situations where Serbs used to hide in the

14     Communist manner by saying that everything is a military secret.  I have

15     friends -- I have a friend who is a doctor and whose brother had gone

16     missing, and to this day it is not known that he has gone missing but it

17     is known that these were one of the major losses of the Serbian army in

18     this war.  And your army and your Presidency never talked much about

19     that, though it is logical that the whole planet should know something

20     about this.  But that's a quite different issue.  Though, for me it is

21     also a form of perversity.  They throw uranium at you, they bomb you with

22     it, and you keep silent about it.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.  What you're saying

25     is, of course, very important.  You wrote a book, furthermore, on that,

Page 14510

 1     specifically on the arrival of Mr. Osama bin Laden in Bosnia, and you

 2     wrote a book on the Mujahedins.

 3             But we are at a Tribunal here, so I would like to know if you

 4     yourself, if you have seen Osama bin Laden with these Mujahedins, or is

 5     what you're saying is something that you can state only following what

 6     you heard from the reporter Renate - I'm looking for the last name -

 7     Flottau; I don't know if I pronounced it correctly.  Because we cannot

 8     just rely on hearsay here on that matter.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when Mrs. Flottau

10     stated that, and she said it many times and publicly, it's as if I had

11     seen it myself.  She has a very good credibility.  She's been a reporter

12     for many decades.  She was a correspondent for many, many years in the

13     former Yugoslavia.  She was working for a world-class weekly called

14     Der Spiegel --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... you got a

16     question by Judge Mindua:  Did you see Osama bin Laden with the

17     Mujahedins yourself, or did you hear it from another person?  You

18     answered that you heard something from Ms. Flottau.

19             Could you please answer the question: Did you see Osama bin Laden

20     yourself?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course not.  In that case, I

22     would have made am interview with him.  Every reporter in the world

23     wanted to interview him.  So, no, I have not seen him with my own eyes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... that was

25     enough.  That was the question, and Judge Mindua should continue.

Page 14511

 1             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] No, very well.  Thank you very

 2     much.  That clarifies that.  Thanks.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to inform you that the

 6     translation, the English translation, of the document 1D77 is now

 7     available in e-court.  You may use it if you are interested in it.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  As we used it, perhaps

 9     the witness could just glance at it once again and then if it could be

10     admitted, please.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the text.  It is just

12     my mistake that it was earlier than I seemed to have remembered.  I

13     thought it was published in March 2006, but it says here ... so I will

14     check in Belgrade what date it was, but this is it.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D77 shall be

17     assigned Exhibit D266.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             Sorry, I didn't see you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  And good afternoon to you,

21     Mr. President, and everyone.

22             Mr. President, it's unclear to me what -- I see that this was an

23     excerpt of an article.  I don't know that we have the entirety of the

24     article in evidence.  I'm not sure.  I don't believe that we do.  And to

25     the extent that we don't, I'm not sure if -- I'm not sure where this

Page 14512

 1     emerges from or what part or amount of the article is missing because I

 2     think that's important, to place its context in the proper -- to frame it

 3     appropriately, I think, and put it in its proper context.

 4             Perhaps the witness can give us some information on that, on what

 5     part of the article this is.  But from what I could read just a moment

 6     ago, it appears to be -- what we have now in e-court appears to be the

 7     words of the witness himself, talking about the information that he's

 8     received, but it's not clear what the source of the information is, when

 9     it was acquired, and all of those kinds of things.

10             So maybe General Tolimir can elicit that from the witness, but I

11     think that that's essential in order to -- in order for the Court to

12     properly consider its probative nature and its weight.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To clarify the situation, we received this

14     document as an exhibit, which doesn't say anything about the weight the

15     Chamber will give to this document at the end of this trial.  We have

16     heard some comments from the witness.  He said that this is part of

17     the interview with Mr. Bunel.  I have no idea which part of it.  We don't

18     see the -- we don't have the full text.  We will see what will happen

19     with that.

20             Mr. Tolimir, you should, -- if you want, if you wish, you should

21     clarify this with the witness or carry on.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

23     witness said that he would send both to the accused and the Trial Chamber

24     and the Prosecution the whole interview with Mr. Bunel, so I would just

25     ask him to tell us now whether he has any knowledge of whether, on the

Page 14513

 1     lists in Potocari, the lists of those who were dead, included some

 2     persons who were actually alive and whether there was any information

 3     about that in the media that he was aware of in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4     Because he said that maybe some of these persons who are on the lists of

 5     the killed persons are still alive and are living in the city of Richmond

 6     in the United States.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This -- this question was not very clear.

 9             I would like to ask the witness:  The text we have here on the

10     screen, are these the words of Mr. Bunel to a question you put to him

11     during the interview?  Is that correct?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Mr. President.

13     These are his words from a longer interview in which there was a lot of

14     discussion about Islamism throughout the world and in Bosnia and

15     assistance to the Islamists and Izetbegovic during the war by various

16     organisations.  And this is just the text which is directly linked to the

17     Srebrenica events.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I just wanted to know if these words

19     are the words of Mr. Bunel.

20             Mr. Tolimir, you had a long question.  You should rephrase it in

21     order to receive a precise answer of this witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

23     rephrase the question.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, do you know that the lists of persons who were

Page 14514

 1     killed in Potocari during the war in Srebrenica also include names of

 2     living persons who are alive but have been included in the lists as

 3     having been buried?  Thank you.

 4        A.   General, sir, the Serbian public in Belgrade knows a lot about

 5     this.  On several occasions, Mr. Bata Ivanisevic, who is at the head of

 6     the centre for the research of crimes against Serbs in the last civil

 7     war, provided examples.  He made appearances on TV.  He gave statements

 8     to the press.  And I think it can be found through the services which you

 9     have available here at the Tribunal with examples of specific names of

10     persons, whose names figure on the Muslim graveyard in Bratunac, were

11     still alive.  I don't know any specific names at this moment, but it is

12     very easy to find this in documents.  And, after all, you might contact

13     Mr. Ivanisevic who could make a high quality witness as well.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, the name of the person you mentioned at the

15     beginning of your answer was not recorded.  Could you please repeat the

16     name of that person.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  That is

18     Mr. Bata Ivanisevic who, since 1992, has been investigating crimes and is

19     particularly knowledgeable about the area of Podrinje.  He perhaps has

20     the best documentation about the crimes, including the names.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... I just asked

22     for the name.  Please focus on the question.

23             Can you tell me, What is his function in this centre?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Ivanisevic

25     heads -- well, I don't know if his title is president, but he's the head

Page 14515

 1     of the centre for the investigations of crimes against Serbs in the war

 2     from 1992 to 1995 in Bosnia.  The centre is located in Belgrade.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 4             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             With respect to the question that was put by General Tolimir, I

 7     take it he's referring to the book that he put into evidence by

 8     Mr. Ivanisevic.  I don't know how many names the Defence alleges are

 9     names that appear on a burial list, but there's been no evidence in this

10     case about names that appear on any burial list in Potocari.  There's

11     simply been no evidence of that.  So to the extent that the question was

12     framed in the context of names that have been identified that appear on a

13     burial list for victims killed in Potocari, there's simply no evidence of

14     that in the record for that comparison to have been made or to be

15     appropriately put to the witness.

16             That's the nature of the objection.  We have the witness's

17     answer, but I think it's important that the record reflect that.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             Mr. Tolimir, please move to your next question.

20             Mr. Gajic.

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just briefly.  Perhaps

22     it's a translation, perhaps an impreciseness in the phrasing.  What was

23     meant was the list of persons found in Potocari and not persons who were

24     killed in Potocari.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 14516

 1             Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, is Bata the nickname of Mr. Ivanisevic?  Is his

 5     real name Milivoj or something like that?  Can you please tell us for the

 6     transcript.

 7        A.   Mr. Tolimir, his name is Milivoje Ivanisevic.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, I can see that

10     the name is recorded correctly now.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.

14             Yesterday, on page 14459, you spoke about how these from

15     Srebrenica who came to Tuzla went -- went to Richmond ...

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the last part

17     of the question.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters asked you to repeat

19     last part of the question.  It was not translated.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Did you say yesterday, in the testimony relating to the Muslims

23     from Srebrenica who were interviewed in Tuzla by Americans who were later

24     taken to the city of Richmond, did you not say that many of them were

25     probably on the missing persons lists?  And this is something that you

Page 14517

 1     said yesterday on pages 17, lines 1 onwards.

 2        A.   Yes, I think I said that.  That would be a logical conclusion in

 3     view of the fact that I said that Colonel Bunel said that they had turned

 4     up at the American base in early spring 1996.  So this is an interim of

 5     several months.  By that time, more was known about the casualties.  They

 6     didn't fit in anywhere.  Either they were among the casualties, but they

 7     turned up with the Americans.  I assume that they must have figured

 8     somewhere as casualties of war, military casualties.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.

10             Yesterday when you were talking about Colonel Bunel, you said

11     that bin Laden's Mujahedin were drinking coffee at Igman and that they

12     were filmed.  You said the French were helping them at the time.

13             Can you please help us, who was helping whom?  Was it the

14     Mujahedin helping the French or the French helping the Mujahedin?  This

15     is on page 5 of the transcript, line 18 onwards.

16        A.   General, sir, during the war, I frequently worked with French

17     television, TF1.  This is the largest private TV station in Europe.  This

18     is how I made my living, because I was thrown out from all the media in

19     Belgrade.  And I heard this from one of the crews on one occasion when I

20     was with them in Bosnia.  I think it's sufficient if you and the

21     Prosecution and the Trial Chamber is interested in checking this, then

22     you could go and look at the documentation of TF1.  I'm sure that this

23     has not been deleted.  There's footage of a check-point at Igman with

24     French soldiers, Dutch soldiers sitting there, where you have seasoned

25     Mujahedin turning up.  Not local ones but international, seasoned ones.

Page 14518

 1     And there is a record of them sitting and drinking coffee with French and

 2     Dutch soldiers.  And this is what the crew told me.  I don't think that

 3     they lied to me.  If they lied to me, then I am lying to you.  This is

 4     not something that anybody would be willing to show just like that, but

 5     perhaps if you requested it they would be willing to show that to you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please avoid overlapping.  At this

 7     point in time, I would like to get a clarification from the witness.

 8             You said yesterday:

 9             "French television filmed them at a check-point near Igman where

10     the Mujahedin are drinking coffee in the morning with French and Dutch

11     soldiers."

12             Can you -- have you seen that?  Or what is the source of your

13     knowledge?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's clear from my

15     testimony that I was not present and that this is a very convincing

16     testimony by my colleagues from French television.  I worked with a lot

17     of crews during the war in Bosnia as their interpreter, and I don't

18     remember receiving any information from them that was not correct.  I'm

19     not an eye-witness though.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Could you please tell me if you have

21     seen this film the French crew has taken.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not see it

23     personally, because this was not something that happened on the occasion

24     when I was with them.  Otherwise I would have seen it myself.  This is

25     something that happened with one of the previous crews.

Page 14519

 1             These are events that journalists remember, but obviously this

 2     was not broadcast, in the same way that the French at Majevica, and I

 3     referred to that in my previous testimony, gave military food rations to

 4     the same Mujahedin that I saw personally.  Later the Serbs took that from

 5     the Mujahedin.  The French NATO lunch rations, that's what they were.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, since you wrote your book al-Qaeda -- in the book

11     al-Qaeda, did you cover how these fighters of bin Laden, so-called

12     Mujahedin, were settling in Bosnian villages of Bioca, Maoca, villages

13     where Serbs were expelled in Central Bosnia?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, General, sir.  I did not cover that.  I think this is a fact

15     that turned up more even in the Bosnian press later, but it's a

16     generally-known fact.  I did mention that they were being issued

17     passports, that bin Laden had a Bosnian passport, and that there were

18     indications leading to fighters who were receiving passports of the new

19     Bosnian state, and they turned up later in Zambia and some other

20     countries.  But I did not specifically mention that they had their own

21     villages.  Bioca, I think, was the name of that village.  They still live

22     there to this very day.  But I think that I did not put that in the book,

23     as far as I remember.  This was in 2002.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Petrovic, can you tell me what is the source

25     of your knowledge about Bosnian passport issued for Osama bin Laden?

Page 14520

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I really couldn't

 2     say.  This is the result of various information compiled over a long

 3     period of time, even from the time when I was in the Bina news agency.

 4     There were plenty of Israeli sources for that, Israelis who were in

 5     Bosnia.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That's absolutely sufficient.  Thank

 7     you very much.

 8             Judge Nyambe has a question.

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, on page 21, today's transcript, line 5, you

10     have stated that they turned up later in Zambia and other countries and

11     that they have their own villages.  Can you amplify on that, exactly

12     which part of Zambia they may be and which villages they occupied, if you

13     know.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a

15     misunderstanding.  Nobody said anything about villages in Zambia and

16     Tanzania.  My information indicated that the diplomatic services of the

17     new Bosnian state concealed Islamists at some lower-ranking positions,

18     bin Laden's people.  Islamists, they were not noticeable because Bosnia

19     is part of the non-aligned world, so it was easier to enter African and

20     other countries that still remembered non-alignment.

21             I spoke about Zambia and I think Tanzania also was something that

22     I referred to in the context of two major operations where embassies were

23     blown up.  These were two major Islamists actions, and some Israeli and

24     other experts consider that there were Mujahedin there or bin Laden's

25     people who were actually concealed in these trade representative offices

Page 14521

 1     or diplomatic offices.  This was something that can be described as

 2     white-collar al-Qaeda.  This is what I meant.

 3             The villages that I mentioned were actually the villages in

 4     Bosnia where former fighters, Afghanistanis, settled.  They got married,

 5     have children.  They still live there.  They put roots there.  And in the

 6     Bosnian public, this is something that is discussed from time to time,

 7     the potential danger that is posed by these Mujahedin still today.

 8             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  Okay.  I think, just for the record,

 9     since it's on record and since you link the al-Qaeda cells in Africa to

10     embassies that were bombed in those countries, you probably mean Tanzania

11     and Kenya, and not Zambia, because no embassy was bombed in Zambia in

12     connection with al-Qaeda activities.  Just for the record.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  You are

14     correct.  Kenya and Tanzania and not Zambia.  You are correct.  It was a

15     slip of the tongue.  These are well-known bombings.  The whole planet

16     knows about that, but I misspoke.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In this Tribunal, we are dealing with events in

18     the former Yugoslavia and not on other continents.

19             Mr. Tolimir, can you help me?  What is the purpose of this line

20     of questions which take us far away from Srebrenica, Zepa, and other

21     locations in the former Yugoslavia relevant to the indictment?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We began

23     with a question on the -- the departure of people from Srebrenica to

24     Richmond, a town in America, and through the answers of the witness we

25     got to these questions.  I was asking about Tuzla, about what Mr. Bunel

Page 14522

 1     saw, what he found out, and how the Americans concealed them and did not

 2     allow others to have interviews with them and then eventually they

 3     transferred them to United States.  But they could actually be persons

 4     who are potentially on the lists of missing persons, and these lists of

 5     missing persons are figuring in this trial.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, at that point in time, you didn't

 8     receive any comment from the Chamber.  But now we are talking about

 9     Osama bin Laden and bombing of embassies and so on.

10             Please focus on this case and put questions that the witness can

11     answer and provide the Chamber with his knowledge but related to the

12     events we are dealing with in this trial.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I understood you

14     well.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, could you please tell us whether bin Laden's

17     fighters, members of his so-called El Mujahid Unit, remained in Bosnia

18     and Herzegovina and were they engaged in the war and were they present in

19     the area of Srebrenica and Tuzla?  Thank you.

20        A.   General, sir, let me refer you to Mr. Joseph Bodansky, American

21     and Israeli expert on terrorism.  He wrote a lot about it.  He is one of

22     the foremost experts on this planet.  And he published a book, even, in

23     United States.  He is an Israeli intelligence officer working in

24     United States.  He can confirm the presence of the El Mujahid brigade in

25     various areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I first found out about that at

Page 14523

 1     Ms. Biljana Plavsic.  She purchased the cassette, video cassette, from

 2     the Croats, and Carl Bildt was present in her office.  He was writing

 3     notes for two hours about the video-tape.  The name of the person is,

 4     I'll repeat it, Josep Bodansky.  He is the foremost expert in the world

 5     on this topic.

 6        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, during the direct examination, you talked about

 7     geopolitics of energy.  And on page 12, line 25, you told us that Kosovo

 8     has about 60 per cent of energetic resources of Serbia.  You also gave us

 9     the figures in millions of tonnes.  Immediately after that you were asked

10     by the Prosecutor whether you express your own position in your book, and

11     I would like to ask you whether this is it your personal opinion, namely

12     that the 60 per cent of the Serbian resources are located in Kosovo, or

13     was it something that you have on the basis of research?  Thank you.

14        A.   General, sir, I heard that information from several professors of

15     the mining and geology school in Belgrade who are the foremost experts in

16     the world for that topic.  That's about -- there's about 20 billion

17     tonnes of coal, not very high quality coal.  But that's all we have.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is the purpose of these

19     questions about mines in Kosovo?  You should use your time in

20     cross-examination in a more efficient way.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there was mention of

22     wars, and there was mention of economic resources.  The war in Kosovo was

23     waged over economic resources.  I'm entitled to ask the witness whether

24     during his geopolitical research you came to a conclusion that wars are

25     being waged over energetic and other economic resources.

Page 14524

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There are many reasons for wars in the world.

 2     This is not related to this case, Mr. Tolimir.  You should use your time

 3     much more efficiently.  Put questions in relation to the events mentioned

 4     in the indictment.

 5             Carry on, please.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Please, Dr. Petrovic, could you please tell us whether NATO got

 9     out of the European Union for the first time during the war in the

10     Balkans; is that something you've learned through your research?

11        A.   Yes.  In geopolitics it's a well-known fact.  The Americans,

12     after the first war with Iraq, in 1993 and 1994, came to Dunav and also,

13     for the first time, in 1999, they started building a base, Bondsteel, and

14     it will be a strategically important start-off point towards Eurasia.

15     That's a well-known fact.  And as I already mentioned, wars are waged

16     nowadays over resources, or experts for energy and almost important

17     politicians will confirm that this is an absolute truth.

18        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.  Could you please tell us whether

19     bin Laden and his Mujahedin stay and have coffee in Sarajevo on

20     Mount Igman in Bosnia if NATO alliance countries and UNPROFOR countries

21     were against that?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think this is an inappropriate

23     question to put to this witness.  The witness, as he told us, is not an

24     eye-witness.  He, in fact, doesn't know anything, he can't know anything,

25     about the background of the behaviour of NATO and UNPROFOR in relation to

Page 14525

 1     Mujahedins.  He is a journalist.  He is not an expert witness.  He is a

 2     journalist.  He was called for his testimony and his knowledge about the

 3     video shots we have seen in the courtroom.  This is the reason why he is

 4     here, and he was asked during examination-in-chief about this.

 5             You should focus on the testimony of the witness during

 6     examination-in-chief.  This is the scope of his examination and not his

 7     second-hand or third- or fourth-hand knowledge about possible reasons for

 8     actions taken by NATO or UNPROFOR.

 9             Please consider your line of questions again.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I can

11     conclude my examination.  However, yesterday, during the direct

12     examination, on page 11, line 25, the witness answered the questions put

13     to him by the Prosecutor in relation to geopolitics and energetics, what

14     his field of expertise and research was, and this is why I'm asking this

15     question.  He told us that he is interested, and was interested, in

16     geopolitics of food, water, energy, and so on.  But if you disallow this

17     line of questioning, I will not put those kind of questions anymore.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, you should put questions which has a

19     value for your case, and not about geopolitical knowledge.

20             Please carry on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, could you please tell us weather in the Balkans the

24     geopolitics of water and other energetic such as the energy sources in

25     Kosovo were the reason for all the wars in the region?  Thank you.

Page 14526

 1        A.   General, sir, it's a well-known fact among people who deal in

 2     geopolitics, like everywhere else on our planet, it is something that is

 3     of great importance and something that major countries take into

 4     consideration when they are considering taking others -- other resources

 5     belonging to others.  And if I may add one sentence.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.  Sorry, I have to interrupt you.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, you got some guidance by me, and now you're, again,

 8     dealing with energy sources in Kosovo, and you get only the answer:

 9     "It's a well-known fact among people who deal with geopolitics ..."

10             What kind of evidence is such an answer?  It is a well-known

11     fact.  Everybody can read books and newspaper articles.  This is not

12     testimony about knowledge, personal knowledge and personal facts, and

13     especially the lines of questions about energy and geopolitics.  It is

14     not helpful for your case.

15             Please bear that in mind.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In the

17     indictment, I am charged with events in the war.  I want to show that

18     it's not the conflicting parties that were behind the war in Bosnia, but

19     some other forces.

20             If you don't want me to prove that, I will -- if you won't let me

21     to do it, I will not have an opportunity and I won't do it.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, help me.  How can you expect that

23     this witness will be able to testify about this knowledge, about this

24     fact, as he always answers in the way like he did with the last answer,

25     "it is a well-known fact"?

Page 14527

 1             It is not helpful for your case to have a journalist to tell you

 2     anything about a well-known fact.  This is it not evidence.

 3             Please continue your examination in a different way.  You may --

 4     you may -- we could have our first break now, then you may consider the

 5     situation with your Legal Advisor, and then we can continue.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  But this

 8     means that I'm not allowed to ask a journalist, and a researcher who was

 9     present there in the Balkans throughout the war, I cannot ask him

10     anything about the causes of the war, and I am charged with elements of

11     the war.

12             We can ask him.  We can now all see that the wars in Yugoslavia,

13     in Iraq, in Libya, in Congo, are being waged in order to make a new

14     distribution of resources of the non-allied countries which existed

15     before but do not exist anymore.  I just wanted to ask whether the war in

16     Bosnia was part of the same trend in geopolitical sense, because what we

17     have here is an expert in geopolitics.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, sorry, Mr. Tolimir.  He is not an expert.  He

19     is a witness.  Nearly ever answer we have received from the witness is

20     introduced with the words "it's a well-known fact."

21             If that is a well-known fact, you know that already.

22             I -- my proposal is to have our first break now.  You may

23     consider this situation with your Legal Advisor, and we will resume five

24     minutes past 4.00.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 14528

 1                           --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to remind you and to

 5     read out to you the legal background for cross-examination, the legal

 6     basis, concerning the discussion we had before the break.  We should

 7     foremost rely on the applicable law.

 8             In our Rules of Procedure and Evidence, Rule 90(H)(i), and I

 9     would like to read that out to you, there's the guidance, the legal

10     guidance, for the cross-examining party.  I quote:

11             "Cross-examination shall be limited to the subject-matter of the

12     evidence-in-chief and matters affecting the credibility of the witness

13     and, where the witness is able to give evidence relevant to the case for

14     the cross-examining party, to the subject matter of that case."

15             Mr. Tolimir, the last questions, in my view, went far beyond the

16     scope of the testimony of this witness.  If you want to put your case

17     about the reasons -- about the reasons of the war or the wars in the

18     former Yugoslavia, you should consider the possibility to call an expert

19     witness during the Defence case, expert witness for history, military

20     background, or political background, and then the Chamber will consider

21     your position.

22             This witness is not an expert witness.  This witness,

23     Mr. Petrovic, is a journalist, and he was called by the Prosecution to

24     explain the video footage we have seen in court and which he produced.

25     You should bear that in mind, that this was the scope of the

Page 14529

 1     examination-in-chief.  The witness might have a strong opinion about many

 2     things in relation to the events in the former Yugoslavia, but it's not

 3     helpful for your case and for your Defence if you only receive answers

 4     with the wording "it is a well-known fact."

 5             You need evidence in your case, and you should try to get

 6     evidence from the witness and not an opinion.

 7             Please bear that in mind and continue your cross-examination,

 8     please.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             On page 14424, line 25, during the direct examination,

12     Mr. Vanderpuye stated or, rather, asked the witness to say something

13     about geopolitics of energy.  And on that occasion the witness talked

14     about the geopolitics of water, food, and energy.  And he said that it

15     has to do with future.  He also mentioned 60 per cent resources.

16             On page 11 of direct examination --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... I would

18     like -- may I interrupt you for a moment.  I would like to have the page

19     14424 on the screen, if that is possible.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you have the line, Mr. Tolimir?

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             Lines 8 to 11 was the question, and then 11 to 25 is the answer.

25             I could also refer you to the previous page, page 11, where the

Page 14530

 1     witness said that he was in charge of a centre for political studies.

 2             This forms the basis for my questions.  It was part of the direct

 3     examination.  But I accept your guidance.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Just to clarify, on line 11 of

 6     page 14424, the last question of Mr. Vanderpuye was:  "What does this

 7     discipline concern?"

 8             One could interpret this as a question of -- in relation to the

 9     background and the knowledge and the scientific background of the

10     witness, and not a question about the knowledge he has about certain

11     factors and historical events.  That might be a difference.

12             But you said you will continue according to the guidance you have

13     received.  Please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, thank you for all the answers you gave, especially

17     to the ones you gave to the questions I put to you.  It's unfortunate

18     that you couldn't answer all my questions.  Thank you for coming here.

19     God bless you on your return home.  God bless you and your family.  And I

20     hope your research will be fruitful, your research and of your centre.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, those were the

22     questions of the Defence for this witness.  We don't have any further

23     questions.  And we wish him a happy return to his home and God-speed.

24             Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 14531

 1             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, I do.  With your leave, I

 3     can get started.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 5        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, good afternoon to you.

 6             You were asked some questions by General Tolimir about

 7     Colonel Bunel, in particular the article that you indicated that you

 8     would send once have you a chance to obtain it.  I don't have the

 9     specific page reference handy, but I think you can recall the subject

10     matter of those questions.

11             First, I just want to be clear that we're talking about

12     Colonel Pierre-Henri Bunel.  Is that him?

13        A.   That's correct, sir.

14        Q.   And you indicated that the information he provided you, you found

15     to be credible and reliable.

16        A.   Yes.  Yes, sir.

17        Q.   And you are aware that Colonel Bunel was imprisoned on the basis

18     that he provided information to the Serbs about NATO military targets?

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   And in this context he was also apparently charged with treason;

21     is that right?

22        A.   As far as I can recall, yes.

23        Q.   In the discussions you had with Colonel Bunel - and I think you

24     indicated this also in cross-examination - the topic of the Islamisation

25     of the Balkans also came up; right?

Page 14532

 1        A.   Indeed, sir.

 2        Q.   That's a position that you share with him, in terms of your views

 3     concerning this; is that fair?

 4        A.   Yes, in many aspects.

 5        Q.   Did Colonel Bunel tell you, during the course of your interview

 6     with him, that the Islamic terrorism in the Balkans was encouraged in the

 7     war and that Washington had an interest in destabilizing that region?

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now I have a concern with these kind of questions

11     during the re-examination.  You listened to the guidance we gave to

12     Mr. Tolimir about the scope of his cross-examination and the concern I

13     had to express.  You should try to avoid to go into the same field of --

14     yeah, opinions.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I only have one other

16     question and it is related, obviously, to this same topic, and then I'll

17     move on to another -- to another area.

18             I'm not sure if I got an answer to my last question.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, you didn't because I expressed my concern

20     about the question.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Did you discuss with Colonel Bunel during

23     your interview with him the idea that there was a basis for concern about

24     the American presence in Europe and the danger, as he saw it, of the

25     Islamisation of the Balkans as a threat to the region?

Page 14533

 1        A.   Let me remind you, first of all, that there were two interviews.

 2     We are talking about the second one which was not done in person but via

 3     e-mail.  I sent him questions, he sent me answers back.

 4             However, he wrote some books.  I can't give you the exact titles,

 5     but what are you talking about now is something that is contained in

 6     those books.  And it contains his opinion about the danger of

 7     Islamisation of the region and the role of NATO and the USA.

 8        Q.   All right.  And that's something that you discussed with him in

 9     the course of these e-mails or in person; right?

10        A.   Yes.  In our first encounter in Paris we discussed these things.

11     I can provide both interviews to you.  But in the second interview, as I

12     said, we only -- he only gave me responses.  We didn't have any kind of

13     discussion.  And in his responses, he did make mention of that.

14        Q.   All right.  When you were in the Srebrenica area on the

15     13th and 14th of July, 1995, when you filmed the women on the buses and

16     the men being separated, or the men and the women being removed from

17     Potocari, these aren't the radical Islamists you were talking about

18     during the course of your cross-examination; right?  These people that

19     were removed from Potocari that you filmed aren't the radical Islamists

20     that you refer to during the course of your testimony; right?

21        A.   You are right.  I did not see any Islamists at that time.  Those

22     were the people either from Srebrenica or the refugees who had come to

23     Srebrenica when the war started.  So those were the people from Bosnia.

24     Bosnians.

25        Q.   Bosnians.

Page 14534

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   You mentioned during your cross-examination that the information

 3     that Bunel provided you concerning fighters that showed up in Tuzla in

 4     1996, I believe you said, that there was some possibility or probability

 5     that they were on the list of misting, and I just want to ask you a

 6     couple of questions about that.

 7             Did you, during your interview or e-mail conversation with Mr. --

 8     Colonel Bunel, come across any information, such as a name, date of

 9     birth, place of residence, any biographical information that would enable

10     you to determine whether or not the individuals he spoke about could be

11     on the list of missing in 2011, that we're in now?

12        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, not at all.  He never went into any details of

13     that nature.  He confined himself to the fact that he had seen a large

14     group of exhausted fighters in the American base in Tuzla.  He probably

15     knew a little more, but I wouldn't like to guess.

16             So that is all that he told me.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, during your cross-examination, at page 14490 --

18     well, let's say 491 and 492, you were asked some questions about the

19     Kravica warehouse by General Tolimir, and in particular he asked you

20     about the number of bodies that you estimated that were outside the

21     building.

22             The question was, and this is at page 14492, line 4, and follows

23     some additional introduction that General Tolimir gave:

24             "Can you please tell us whether these were all the bodies which

25     you filled at the location in Kravica or is there another footage?  Thank

Page 14535

 1     you."

 2             And your answer was:

 3             "General, all bodies which I personally saw were filmed.  But let

 4     me repeat once again, my footage hardly lasts 3 seconds.  It's a maximum

 5     3 seconds while passing by Kravica."

 6             You say you also "shot ... 3 or 4 dead people in Srebrenica

 7     itself on the 14th of July, the following day."

 8             I want to ask you some questions about that.  When you were

 9     shooting this footage outside the warehouse, as I recall your testimony,

10     you were on the way to the Bratunac health centre; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, as far as my memory serves me.

12        Q.   And you never stopped at the Kravica warehouse on the way.

13        A.   No, we didn't stop at that particular spot.  But we did stop on

14     another location before that.

15        Q.   And the location you stopped at before that, I think you said,

16     was Sandici.  Is that near the meadow where the prisoners were being

17     held?

18        A.   That's what I have been told later, that that was the name of

19     that topographical feature.

20        Q.   And if I may ask:  Who told you that?

21        A.   I believe that this was told me during my first interview with

22     Mr. Nicholls when I made my first statement.  However, I'm not sure.

23     Anyway, it came from the Court, because they had detailed maps, and I

24     think I saw the name Sandici on one of those maps as a name of a hamlet.

25     In 2006 I was in the area with a crew from the French television, but I

Page 14536

 1     did not recognise any of these places.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And when you drove by the warehouse, were you together

 3     with Borovcanin in the vehicle?

 4        A.   Yes.  That was the only vehicle that I was in during the 40 hours

 5     that I spent in the area, and this car belonged to Ljubisa Borovcanin.

 6        Q.   Well, was he in it with you when you drove by the warehouse and

 7     filmed the footage that the Trial Chamber has seen?

 8        A.   Yes.  As far as I can remember, we were together in the car, and

 9     we travelled as far as the town and the health centre there.

10        Q.   And you indicated that you had heard that an individual had

11     been -- that one of Borovcanin's men, who I told you yesterday had been

12     identified as Rade Cuteric [Realtime transcript read in error "Cuderic"],

13     had been injured.  Was he in the car with you, as well, when you drove

14     past the warehouse?

15        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, I described to you yesterday in very clear terms

16     that he had been wounded before we had reached the place where he got

17     injured and that, in the meantime, another vehicle drove him urgently to

18     the medical centre.  So I don't know what it was the aim of your

19     question.  As far as I can remember, no injured person was in the car

20     with Ljubisa Borovcanin.

21        Q.   How long did it take you to get to the Bratunac health centre

22     from the point that you can see on the video that you were filming?

23     Approximately.

24        A.   Sir, I -- I can't tell you how many minutes.  The only way is for

25     the two of us to go there and try to -- and measure the time and also to

Page 14537

 1     take into account, when doing so, some interruptions that was due to

 2     fighting.

 3             It's a short trip, maybe 15 or 20 minutes.  But please don't hold

 4     me to that, because I have pushed this into back of my memory.

 5        Q.   All right.  I just wanted you to estimate it, and I see that you

 6     said about 15 or 20 minutes.  That's -- that's your recollection.  Is

 7     that fair?

 8        A.   That's right.  But I cannot say that that is an absolute truth.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I want to show you 65 ter 3284.

10             And what you can see here is -- this is a transcript of an

11     interview that was conducted with Ljubisa Borovcanin.  I think we have it

12     over the 11th and 12th of March, 2002.  Let me give you the page number

13     that I want to refer you to.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to go to page 64 in the English.  It's

15     64 not necessarily in e-court, but the page number of the transcript.

16             It should be 59, I believe, in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   And here we have Mr. Borovcanin describing the events that you've

18     testified about.  And he says -- you'll see the first line that I'll read

19     from is in the second paragraph, AG, that's Allistair Graham, and that's

20     the investigator for the OTP.

21             "The time is still around 1450; we'll continue with the

22     interview."  And he says: "So just to clarify, Milos Stupar asked you to

23     return to his location and this is what you do?"

24             And we have Borovcanin answer as follows:

25             "So I passed Sandici where we parted ... nothing was going on in

Page 14538

 1     that area.  I continued.  So I continued down the road and I reached the

 2     building of agricultural association of some kind in Kravica.  And I saw

 3     police officers that were previously placed along the road.  I saw them

 4     gathered there.  I saw Lukic's unit.  They were all together as well, and

 5     I saw a large number of bodies of people that were killed in the yard

 6     belonging to that Zadruga.  It was not clear to me what happened, so I

 7     asked Stupar what happened.  So, briefly, he informed me that a military

 8     unit brought this large number of prisoners from Sandici to that place.

 9     So, as they were entering the backyard or the yard, one Muslim tried to

10     grab someone's gun, and as the Muslim grabbed the gun, he killed the

11     police officer.  And then Cuteric, who was a deputy commander of that

12     unit ..."

13             And we'll have to go down a little bit.

14             "So he grabbed the barrel of the gun by that Muslim so the

15     shooting continued and Officer Cuteric, he was injured because he grabbed

16     that hot barrel and his -- both palms were burnt to the bone.  And the

17     shooting started after that.  The military unit that brought those

18     Muslims there, they started shooting and then, you know, mass killings

19     occurred.  And ... I asked Stupar, What was the role of the police and

20     all that?"

21             We'll have to go to the next page in the English.

22             "And he said that the police officers did not participate in the

23     shooting."

24             He then says:

25             "I placed Cuteric, who was injured, in the car.  I took him to

Page 14539

 1     the health centre in Bratunac and then he received medical assistance

 2     because no other vehicles were available."

 3             So my question to you, first, is:  Can you reconcile what you've

 4     told us with what you can see Borovcanin, who was with you at the time,

 5     has said concerning the events surrounding Kravica warehouse?

 6             First, can you tell us, do you now recall whether you stopped at

 7     the warehouse?

 8        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, there is nothing for me to reconcile.  I do not

 9     have any memory of any injured person being in the car.  This is why in

10     the text, the interview in the magazine, I think, mentioned the whole

11     story which I heard rather than saw, because is it not strange for you

12     that in all the footage which I shot, including the group of the dead,

13     it's illogical that there is a wounded man in the car because there is no

14     sequence including him?

15             So Mr. Borovcanin and myself seem to be at complete odds when it

16     comes to what we remember.  I do not remember any wounded combatant in

17     his car, nor that we ever stopped there in Kravica.  There is not a trace

18     of anything like that in my memory, because there would have been some

19     kind of trace in my text.  I'm not sure what this is about, but I cannot

20     reconcile these two stories.  And I stand by my own.  I have no reason to

21     change my position and take this, what has been noted during another

22     interview, as something that is mine.

23             I do not remember it in this way.  Absolutely not.

24        Q.   Well, I'm glad that you've raised it because that is the gist of

25     my question.  And the gist of my question is: If we credit what's in this

Page 14540

 1     statement by Mr. Borovcanin, whom you've testified was with you

 2     throughout, pretty much, the period of time, the 40 hours that you were

 3     in and around Bratunac and Srebrenica, then it would seem, or stand to

 4     reason, that there would be other footage concerning the Kravica

 5     warehouse dead.

 6             Let me take you to page 66 in the English and ask you about this.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We've have to go to the bottom of the page,

 8     line 23 in the English.  Let's see if I have it in the B/C/S.

 9             I think it's line 8, page 62 in the B/C/S.

10        Q.   And we'll start there.  This is Mr. Borovcanin speaking.  He

11     says:

12             "So I've never been to that warehouse and I was standing on the

13     road and that's what I saw because I was on the road.  I never went

14     down?"

15             Then the question is from PM, who is Peter McCloskey:

16             "Did you look into the warehouse from the road?

17             And the answer was:

18             "I looked in the direction of the warehouse, and I saw dead

19     people."

20             "Q. I know.  Did you look in the warehouse?"

21             And he says, Borovcanin:

22             "So, well, I can tell you that I looked towards the warehouse and

23     Pirocanac was near me."

24             That's you, first of all; right?

25        A.   Yes, yes.  That's my nickname, yes.

Page 14541

 1        Q.   Pirocanac was near me and he was taking photographs or he was

 2     filming the place, and on that footage you can also see the warehouse but

 3     you cannot see what's in the warehouse because it was dark.

 4             Here we see Borovcanin referring to you taking photographs or

 5     filming the place.  And he says, immediately before that, he hadn't been

 6     to the warehouse but he was standing on the road.

 7             How do you reconcile what he said here with what appears in your

 8     three seconds of footage?

 9        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, after 16 years, or even 12 or 10, these are

10     obviously two different testimonies.  But I have a principle of mine.  I

11     have been a journalist for a long time, and what I filmed in passing,

12     that was it.  I do not remember those memories of Mr. Borovcanin nor did

13     I ever discuss this with him.  I had this broadcast on TV immediately.

14     So the materials reached Studio B immediately, and I wasn't the only one

15     who saw them.  I included absolutely everything that was interesting from

16     the point of view of war, the dynamics of war operations, and so on and

17     so forth.

18             So from the footage itself, the three seconds, one can see that

19     it was shot from a car that was moving.  And, really, most sincerely, I

20     cannot remember something that would probably suit you better, that I

21     ever stopped there with him for a single second.  I really do not

22     remember that.  It is certain that there would be more, because if there

23     were the 20 dead, I suppose I would have filmed others if I had seen

24     them.  First of all, yesterday I heard the question "How many doors were

25     there?"  I didn't see the door at all.  Whether they were locked or

Page 14542

 1     unlocked, you have to realize that I was filming in the zone which was

 2     under fire, where operations were still underway, and I absolutely don't

 3     remember us stopping.

 4             That is my answer.

 5        Q.   All right.  I have your answer.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender this

 7     transcript.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3284 shall be

10     assigned Exhibit P2235.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have nothing

13     against Mr. Vanderpuye asking the witness everything, but this extends

14     beyonds the limits of the additional examination.  During the

15     cross-examination, I only said what was asked during the

16     examination-in-chief, namely that the camera recorded what was recorded

17     during the three seconds.  And please, if this could be taken into

18     account from this point onwards and that the questions should not extend

19     beyond the scope of the cross-examination.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Vanderpuye, can you

22     give us a reference?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I can.  I thought I did.  Maybe I misspoke.

24     I referred to page 14492 of the transcript, where General Tolimir asked

25     Dr. Petrovic:

Page 14543

 1             "Can you please tell us whether these were all the bodies which

 2     you filmed at the location in Kravica or is there another footage?

 3             And he says:  All I filmed was three seconds.

 4             And so I've asked him questions concerning his opportunity to

 5     film and so on.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  You gave us the reference earlier.

 7             Please carry on.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   You have mentioned that during this period of time, Dr. Petrovic,

10     you were under fire.  I'd like to show you 65 ter 7398.  This is a

11     composite photograph from the footage that we saw yesterday during the

12     course of your testimony.

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   As you recall, when we ran the footage yesterday, I indicated to

16     you that there were three men, apparently soldiers, on this video that

17     did not appear to be ducking for cover or were trying to avoid being

18     fired on at the time that you filmed this footage.  And you provided an

19     answer concerning that.

20             Now you said, essentially, that you were under fire at the time

21     and wouldn't, as I understand it, have had an opportunity to film more of

22     what we can see here, including the bodies that are piled up in front of

23     the doors and the goings-on at the time.  You've also described this

24     particular scene as perhaps some of the most jarring or shocking footage

25     you've ever filmed.  Is that fair?

Page 14544

 1        A.   Yes, in terms of the intensity of impression at the moment of

 2     filming this.  But thinking now, in the courtroom, and then and there is

 3     not one and the same thing.  And have to realize the basic thing: I'm

 4     holding the camera in this position - please have a look at me.  So I'm

 5     looking through the lens.  I'm not a professional cameraman who would

 6     probably have seen more than me, if this is what you're aiming at.  I'm a

 7     dilettante with a camera of 8-millimetres, and I have limited

 8     opportunities.  It's 1, 2, 3.  So how can I discuss it with you?  I would

 9     probably try to make a close-up if we had stopped, because this is what a

10     journalist would try to make, a close-up of this horrible scene.

11             Please realize that on this road from the Sandici, where we were

12     going from, until close to Bratunac there were shoot-outs occasionally.

13     Everyone was shooting at everyone else and in such a situation I was

14     filming this, and you expect more from me than this.  That's really not

15     fair.  I exposed my life so that you would have these images here today.

16     Please allow me.  I realize this as a slight provocation on your part.

17     Twice or at least three times in my life, I know this for sure, that

18     there were orders issued to liquidate me because of these -- of this

19     footage, because of this reportage.  And I know that once a man whom I

20     don't know personally whose name is General Mladic saved my life by

21     ending this operation, and the other one was a paramilitary commander

22     Arkan, when they learned that somebody from Bosnia said, Liquidate

23     Pirocanac.  And now you want me to say more than what I did see.  This

24     could have been omitted from the report.

25             I have been exposed to horrible lies and pressure for 15 years.

Page 14545

 1     I cannot stand this to the end of my life.  I did this honestly, by

 2     risking my own life, there, on the ground, and later on, when I learned

 3     this, I was a target.  I was to be killed.  So please do not try to

 4     extract more from me than what I already said.  I'm really not a man who

 5     is afraid of anyone, who has to hide anything, or who is dishonest.

 6        Q.   Thank you for that.  Maybe can you tell us, then,

 7     Dr. Pirocanac -- I mean Petrovic, maybe you can tell us, then, why this

 8     particular footage doesn't appear on the raw footage that you provided to

 9     the Office of the Prosecutor in 2006, I believe it was.  This footage

10     appears on the Studio B footage, as we've seen, but it doesn't appear on

11     the raw footage that you used to prepare the Studio B footage that you

12     provided to the Office of the Prosecutor.

13        A.   Yes.  Mr. Vanderpuye, you're talking about 2006.  Since

14     July 1995, I behaved quite unprofessionally as regards this.  I will take

15     you to dinner if you give me an example of such conduct of a journalist

16     who would provide the raw materials to whoever asked to have them.  And

17     journalists from around the world who were in Belgrade at the time asked

18     me to provide this to them.  A good analysis of my 8-millimetre video

19     cassette indicates that there are several other details which have

20     nothing to do with Srebrenica.  It was, first of all, used many times.

21             And in real journalism the principle is that you should use one

22     video cassette only once, and this one was used many times.  There is

23     also an image of Karadzic speaking in the TV studio in Pale at one point,

24     which has nothing to do with Srebrenica.  So I have given it to everyone,

25     and I was not money oriented at all.  I provided all colleagues from

Page 14546

 1     across the world with this, to the Dutch and the French and the

 2     Americans' TV stations.  It passed through many hands.  So that it is

 3     unfair to express an interest in -- to why is it in the original and not

 4     in the raw materials.  Well, I guess the original, thanks to which you

 5     have this footage, is more interesting.

 6             And who were are all the parties that intervened in this?  That's

 7     something I really cannot know.  It's much more important that you have

 8     the white house and the hangar, because three seconds is more than zero

 9     seconds.  If I had had more, I would have used it, because the images I

10     have in the report are poor.  And I'm telling you, you keep forgetting

11     that I'm not a cameraman.  These are two quite different professions.  A

12     journalist's eye views differently than the eye of a cameraman.  I was

13     forced to film this because perhaps I was aware of the historic

14     importance of the materials.  And for years you have been exploiting it

15     thanks to my own personal risk.

16             I was not insured as the Western journalists are.  I was crazy to

17     have exposed my physical integrity in order to film this report so that

18     later on everyone would be attacking me.  And don't forget, I have been

19     attacked in Belgrade by the anti-war sector, so to speak, and also by the

20     Bosnian Serbs, and also on several occasions, I'm certain about two, and

21     I know a third journalist in Belgrade who told me that they waited for me

22     at the border.  They waited for me to appear, the Bosnian Serbs.  So I

23     was supposed to be liquidated physically.

24             You're not taking that into account at all, and I'm asking you,

25     please, as a human, to do that, because I risked a lot in order to film

Page 14547

 1     this.  And Mr. Borovcanin allowed me to film everything that we can see,

 2     so one should thank him too.

 3        Q.   All right.  I'm sure somewhere in there there's an explanation

 4     for why that material doesn't appear on your raw footage, but I don't see

 5     it.  Also what I don't see is -- on your raw footage, is the footage that

 6     you shot of the Muslim prisoners at the white house on the balcony.  That

 7     does appear in the Studio B footage but can't be found on the raw footage

 8     that you provided the Office of the Prosecutor in 2006.

 9             I know that you've testified about this before, so can I take it

10     that your explanation for that anomaly is the same as it was in your

11     prior testimony?

12        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, of course that it will be lacking in your sense

13     of the word, but can you please quote to me any other source that was

14     more useful for this Tribunal than my materials?  And you also forgot to

15     say that later on I submitted to the Tribunal the VHS version of the

16     original TV show from Studio B which has gone missing, so you should ask

17     the authorities and those who are in power in Studio B, How did it happen

18     that it had gone missing?  I was lucky that people in Canada would

19     preserve the report, because the Serbs in Canada also attacked me in 1995

20     and 1996 and 1997 because of this report.  I sent it -- or, rather, I

21     took it personally, because I was a guest in 1996 in Canada and I had

22     submitted this version to them and I had completely forgotten about it,

23     but God seemed to have sent this tape, so you have -- the only thing that

24     is relevant, as it was edited immediately and whatever was of any value

25     so as to be included, was included in the poorly filmed report from the

Page 14548

 1     professional aspect, but rather important from the historic aspect as it

 2     turned out.  At the moment, I didn't have this thought on my mind, this

 3     dimension.  So it's lacking, but that's most that you ever had at your

 4     disposal at this Tribunal.  I'm not a superhuman, and this is the maximum

 5     that I could have done, really, frankly, and sincerely.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask you for a reference in the

10     cross-examination for that part of the video, not the Kravica warehouse,

11     but the white house.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There's no reference during the course of the

13     cross-examination.  It's just a follow-up to what the witness gave to a

14     question I put to him that was grounded in the cross-examination.

15             So I asked him about what was missing from the footage, and he

16     mentioned, in his answer to that, to the Kravica footage, the white house

17     footage.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Now, Dr. Petrovic, you've mentioned efforts made to seize this

21     VHS recording of the footage that you made.  I want to show you a

22     document.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's P1337.  For the Court, this is not on my

24     re-direct examination -- on my list of exhibits for re-direct

25     examination, but it -- I'm raising it now because it flows directly from

Page 14549

 1     the witness's previous answer.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, are you tendering the document we

 3     have on the screen now?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7398 shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit P2236.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             I would kindly ask you, this really accedes the framework of the

11     cross-examination.  All the questions being put by Mr. Vanderpuye, this

12     is all evidence from other cases, and I don't see why he's doing that now

13     and why there is a precedent being made in terms of the

14     cross-examination.

15             Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On page 43, lines 12 to 18, Mr. Vanderpuye gave a

17     reference, the second time, to that part of your cross-examination.

18             Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   First, Dr. Petrovic, have you ever seen this footage --

21     [overlapping speakers] ...

22             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation] [microphone not activated]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:

25        Q.   Have you ever seen this document?

Page 14550

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             I would like to see where this document is being mentioned, and I

 4     would like to know where the data is being referred to in this document.

 5     Did I talk about a cassette, movement of a cassette, how the cassette was

 6     obtained?  You can get questions to -- answers to this, but I just want

 7     to say that this accedes the boundaries of the cross-examination.  I

 8     never spoke about any cassette.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you referring to the document on

10     the screen now?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct, Mr. President.  A

12     cassette is being mentioned here that I did not mention at all during the

13     cross-examination, its movements or anything relating to it.

14             Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, perhaps Mr. Vanderpuye can clarify

16     this.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think I can, Mr. President.

18             What the witness answered in respect of my last question, I think

19     it was either the last or the second-to-last question, specifically was

20     the fact that efforts were made to seize a missing VHS cassette

21     containing the footage which he shot.  The document I have relates

22     precisely to that issue, and that relates, indirectly as it may be, to

23     General Tolimir's question on cross-examination concerning the nature and

24     the scope of the material that was shot by Dr. Petrovic.

25             He asked him whether all of the footage that he shot of Kravica

Page 14551

 1     was all of the footage there was.  I asked him about that, he gave an

 2     explanation.  He also added in his explanation that there were efforts

 3     that were made to seize the VHS recording or that the VHS recording had

 4     mysteriously disappeared of footage that he shot.

 5             And here we can see a document that addresses precisely the

 6     efforts and -- and addresses the issue concerning the raw footage that

 7     Dr. Petrovic shot and also concerns the seizure of that material.

 8             So I put it to this witness, first, whether he's familiar with

 9     the document, and then I can explore, I think briefly, the pertinent

10     issues that are responsive to the questions before the Court.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             If the goal of Mr. Vanderpuye is to expose some other persons to

14     unpleasant things in the way that he is exposing Mr. Pirocanac to them,

15     and it was ridiculous when I said during the cross-examination that there

16     is an attempt to try him for verbal offences, then I have nothing against

17     Mr. Vanderpuye proceeding in the way that he is.  I would just like to

18     note that this is not within the framework of the cross-examination.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Vanderpuye explained that this

20     should be a follow-up question to the last answer of the witness.  You

21     can see mentioning of the VHS version of the original TV show from

22     Studio B.  That is on page 47, lines 17 to 18.

23             No, it's not your turn to -- to get the floor.

24             Do you see that?  Do you recall that, Mr. Tolimir?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it would be the same

Page 14552

 1     as if I were to say that it was relevant that the war in Yugoslavia

 2     preceded the war in Libya.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Dr. Petrovic --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, no, please, I would like to get a response

 7     from you.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I guess the argument is that it's an irrelevant

 9     issue.  I think it is directly relevant to the question of -- without

10     admitting the document, let me just frame it this way:  General Tolimir

11     asked this witness whether the three seconds of video that he shot that

12     appear on the Studio B footage, that is, the Kravica warehouse sequence,

13     is all of the material that he shot of the Kravica warehouse.  I've asked

14     him two things.  One:  Whether or not he had the opportunity to shoot

15     additional footage as would be indicated in the statement of Borovcanin

16     who says that they stopped at the warehouse.  And the second question is

17     this:  On this document, and I'm not using it at this point, I'm just

18     referring to part of it, it says:

19             "Raw material with footages, many of which have never seen

20     daylight, is on a video-tape owned by Zoran Pirocanac."

21             This is referring to the raw material that is not on the Studio B

22     recording, which is what we've seen, which is where the Kravica warehouse

23     footage appears.  Then they talk -- then the document goes on to explain

24     other information concerning that video material.

25             So the extent of my question only relates to whether or not there

Page 14553

 1     is material other than the footage than what we can see on Studio B, as

 2     per either from this document or any other information that this witness

 3     may know about.  So it's directly, directly, related to General Tolimir's

 4     question and it bears upon this witness's -- first of all, his veracity,

 5     and it also bears upon the completeness of the information that he has

 6     provided to the Trial Chamber and the footage itself.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  One moment, please.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, could you please help us to

10     understand your re-examination, especially the relation between the

11     Studio B version of the footage, the raw material, and the so-called VHS

12     version you are now obviously dealing with.

13              What is the relation between these different kinds of -- the

14     video footage and the relation to that part of the cross-examination you

15     were referring to?

16             Judge Nyambe wants to add something.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I think, Mr. Vanderpuye, we might be helped, as a

18     Chamber, if you gave us a reference in the accused person's

19     cross-examination where this particular issue has been referred to.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  As I -- as I said before, the reference is --

21     the reference is derived from the accused's question to the witness about

22     the completeness of the Kravica warehouse footage, which is where I

23     began.

24             If you bear with me for one moment, I can give you the page

25     number.

Page 14554

 1             It starts at page 14491, line 23, and goes through 14492,

 2     line 12.  And, in particular, the question was as follows:

 3             "Thank you, Dr. Petrovic.  Please, we'll move on to what you

 4     filmed or what you saw.  As I indicated earlier on page 67, 21, you

 5     talked about footage which registered in front of the door of the hangar

 6     in Kravica a certain number of bodies, and you estimated that the number

 7     was roughly around 20 bodies.  You were asked several questions in

 8     relation to that.

 9             "Can you please tell us whether these were all the bodies which

10     you filmed at the location in Kravica or is there another footage?  Thank

11     you."

12             And the answer was:

13             "All bodies ... I personally saw were filmed.  But let me repeat

14     once again, my footage hardly lasts 3 seconds.  It's maximum of 3 seconds

15     while passing by Kravica."

16             And so on and so forth.  The question was whether or not there is

17     another footage as relates to the events that we've seen in Court, the

18     Studio B issue.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye and Mr. Tolimir, the reference

22     Mr. Vanderpuye gave us and read out from the transcript during

23     cross-examination is a sufficient reason to continue the

24     cross-examination [sic] in relation to the question if there's another

25     footage.

Page 14555

 1             Please continue.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             All right.  I think it has disappeared from the ... oh, no, it is

 4     there.

 5        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, have you seen this document before?

 6        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, I was given the document four years ago, after

 7     finishing my testimony by Mr. Nicholls.  Maybe it was Mr. McCloskey.  But

 8     I think that it was Mr. Nicholls.  I was quite surprised about that, and

 9     I can explain how you actually went in completely the wrong direction on

10     this.

11        Q.   Well, I'd like to ask you some questions, if you don't mind.

12             First, you can see here that this is a centre for information and

13     propaganda activities of the VRS Main Staff, and it's signed by chief,

14     Colonel Milutinovic.  And it refers to, in particular, your footage.  You

15     can see that.

16             I'd like to direct your attention, if I could, to the paragraph

17     which I read out, in part, a few moments ago, which begins, I think it's

18     the third paragraph:

19             "Raw material with all footage" [sic] "many ever which have never

20     seen daylight is on a video-tape owned by Zoran Pirocanac."

21             Again, that's you; right?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   It says:  "He is currently in Canada ..."

24             Do you recall if you were in Canada on or about the

25     22nd of June, 1996?

Page 14556

 1        A.   I was there that summer.  I don't know the dates.  I can find

 2     them in my old passport.

 3        Q.   It says:  "He is currently in Canada and the tape it held by his

 4     long-term associate, journalist Vesna Hadzivukovic in Belgrade, who was

 5     entrusted with the tape."

 6             Do you know Vesna Hadzivukovic?

 7        A.   Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.  She was a part of my team in the Bina

 8     agency where I worked for a period of time.  It's a news agency.

 9     B-i-n-a, Bina.

10        Q.   And did she have custody of a video-tape with the raw footage

11     that's indicated in this document?

12        A.   You could say that, although entrusted, that word.  Well, you

13     could say it like that.  I didn't take it to Canada with me.  I left it

14     to a -- with a journalist.

15        Q.   The journalist being Vesna Hadzivukovic; is that right?

16        A.   That is correct.  She had that function in our agency, even

17     though she did not complete any journalist education or journalist

18     schools.  In our agency, though, she did have that function, yes.

19        Q.   Let me take you to the fifth paragraph, which says:

20             "Vesna Hadzivukovic and her boyfriend, formally a member of the

21     RSK press centre, Zeljko Radovanovic, want to get rid of the tape and

22     hand it over to VRS as soon as possible."

23             Do you know anything about that?

24        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, I saw this for the first time when Mr. Nicholls

25     gave it to me.  If it's relevant for you what they said about wanting

Page 14557

 1     to -- well, I don't know why they would want to get rid of it.  Why did

 2     they take it on in the first place?  I mean, it's a completely stupid

 3     thing.  I would like to say something about the letter by Mr. Milutinovic

 4     as well.  I mean, the whole thing is a bit stupid.  I would like to

 5     explain to you where you went wrong.

 6        Q.   Let me finish with this and then you can explain to me.

 7             Further on in this document it says:

 8             "Since the tape does not belong to them," meaning Radovanovic and

 9     Hadzivukovic, "they have to obtain a written receipt from the VRS saying

10     that the tape was seized in order to be able to justify the procedure to

11     Pirocanac when he returns."

12             It then says:

13             "I have already told them to say ... everyone who is interested

14     in the tape that it was handed to VRS Main Staff Information Service and,

15     if necessary, they can refer to me."

16             Do you know anything about that?

17        A.   Absolutely not, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Based on this, you can only

18     conclude that these are associates of that service, because that person

19     is from Bosnia.  Actually both of them hail from Bosnia.  So they receive

20     a cassette and then they have to explain that it was seized and then they

21     take it away.  I mean, this really lacks any seriousness.

22        Q.   It then says:

23             "I will maintain contact with them until the hand-over."  And

24     that's obviously Colonel Milutinovic who's saying this.  "Whoever

25     collects the tape will have to take a written request for seizure of the

Page 14558

 1     tape stamped by the VRS ... Whoever collects the tape has to go with a

 2     receipt."

 3             I want to show you another document.  It's P1338.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You read the last part of this document to the

 5     witness without putting a question to him.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's true, Mr. President.  And I don't have a

 7     question about the last part of it.  It was just for the record.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not necessary because we have it in

 9     evidence already.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   What I'm showing you now -- well, it's self-titled, and it says:

12     "Authorised official of VRS security body."

13             And it says:  "Receipt for temporarily seized items" [sic], and

14     it refers to a civilian, Vesna Hadzivukovic from Belgrade, and it talks

15     about one video-tape.  It says:

16             "The object is seized from her and the objects were received by

17     naval captain Ljubisa Beara."

18             First, have you seen this document before?

19        A.   I don't think that I did see this one.  But it's still completely

20     senseless, just like the one before it.

21             Would you like me to tell you why?

22        Q.   No, I'd just like to know what you know about the document.  You

23     haven't seen this document before?

24        A.   I don't recall seeing it.  But the Army of Republika Srpska

25     cannot officially seize anything in Belgrade from anyone.  I mean,

Page 14559

 1     really, this is an absolutely senseless thing.  It's a different state.

 2     You can withdraw this document completely.

 3             Do you understand what you put up here?  It's -- somebody is

 4     saying something.  People coming to Belgrade to seize something to a

 5     different state.  I mean, it would like you going from Holland to the

 6     United States to seize a document.  I mean, you could try to do that.

 7             I'm a little bit disappointed.  This is not what I expected, but

 8     we can analyse it --

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Dr. Petrovic --

10        A.   We can analyse the first document as well, because my honour is

11     at stake here, and we're talking about military manipulation here right

12     now.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm not talking about your honour --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, no, may I interrupt.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you tell me, why are you referring to

17     Belgrade in your last answer?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is logical.

19     That person lives in the centre of Belgrade.  She's a citizen of the

20     Republic of Serbia.  By origin, she hails from Bosnia because her father

21     is from there, who was a non-commissioned officer.  But she lived in

22     Belgrade.  And then Colonel Milutinovic appears and Beara who are

23     supposed to seize that material officially, right in the middle of

24     Belgrade.  I mean, this really makes absolutely no sense at all.

25     Mr. President, this is a fake document.  It's a fabricated document.

Page 14560

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 2     Mr. President --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you help me to explain that, that you say it

 4     was seized in Belgrade?  How can you draw such a conclusion from this

 5     document?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a telephone number in the

 7     previous document.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm talking

 9     about this document.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the place of residence of that

11     person.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm talking about this document.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.  All right.  Yes.

14             Well, we see that the military post number is a Sarajevo military

15     post number.  The object was received by the -- naval captain

16     Ljubisa Beara.  As far as I can recall, he was a military intelligence

17     officer.  And he seized from a civilian from Belgrade a cassette that she

18     herself had offered up, together with her boyfriend, as it was stated

19     previously.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Once again, what is the basis of your conclusion

21     that this was seized in Belgrade?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of the text of the

23     previous document.  If you permit me, I will explain.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were asked about this document and then you

25     said:  "People coming to Belgrade to seize something to a different

Page 14561

 1     state."  That was your answer.

 2             I would like to understand this answer on the basis of this

 3     document.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, Mr. President.  Thus,

 5     let's proceed step by step.

 6             The cassette - and I don't know which cassette it is - the

 7     cassette is in Belgrade.  The document, the first one and the second one,

 8     arrives from Republika Srpska, which is a different state, which cannot

 9     do anything in the territory of Serbia, in BelgradeBelgrade is in

10     Serbia.  And then they come.  It doesn't even state in the document that

11     the person went to Bosnia.  But you cannot seize something officially in

12     Belgrade on the basis of a document from Sarajevo.  This is what I'm

13     talking about.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:

17        Q.   You can seize something in Bosnia on the basis of a document

18     that's from Sarajevo, can't you?  I think you can answer that.

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and you can see that this

21     document refers to --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   -- Articles 221 and Articles 151 and 154 of the

24     Criminal Law on Procedure; right?

25        A.   Yes.  In a different state.  I don't see where this was seized,

Page 14562

 1     and that's why I believe it was in Belgrade.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... well, in the state -- in the

 3     state where this document would have been issued; right?

 4        A.   I don't see it clearly from it.  Not at all.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and you don't see clearly on

 6     it that this shows that the seizure took place in Belgrade either, do

 7     you?

 8        A.   There is no mention of Belgrade in this document.

 9        Q.   That's right.  And so when you say that it's impossible for this

10     document to be legitimate because the seizure happened in Belgrade,

11     that's just a speculation on your part, isn't it, Doctor?

12        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye --

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... we can all read the

14     document.

15        A.   Let's be fair.

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... show us on this document

17     where it says that the seizure occurred in Belgrade.  Show us that in

18     support of your conclusion that that's where it happened.  And it's time

19     for our break.  Maybe you can find it during that time.

20        A.   This is a vicious circle.  I will show you, if you allow me to

21     use the previous document, that that is senseless, but you're not

22     allowing me.  I cannot give you an answer, because you put me against the

23     wall this way, and there's no need for that.  Mr. Milutinovic, you

24     received his document, is a man who forbade myself and all journalists

25     from Serbia or from abroad to come to the area of Srebrenica.  He told

Page 14563

 1     me, If you go in there, Pirocanac, I will arrest you.  That's why I went

 2     with Mr. Borovcanin.  So this is the man who sent this document.  I don't

 3     know why this document was not presented four years ago.  You had it

 4     then, didn't you?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You can't put such a question to Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             Let's see, again, P2236.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, you referring to the previous

 9     document, I think.  It's P1337.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If that is the document that the witness is

11     referring to, let's see that, please.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we have it.  The telephone number that

13     you were referring to, Doctor?  011-458-705.  And it says --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just to -- we need to clarify which is the number

15     of this document.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  I have it as P1337.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was my mistake.  Please carry on,

19     Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   You said that can you see on this document that the seizure took

22     place in Belgrade.

23        A.   Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.  If you allow me, I'll read the last

24     paragraph.

25              "Vesna and Zeljko are in Belgrade" - I do not know their

Page 14564

 1     address - "but they can be reached at telephone number 011-458-705."

 2             011 is the call number for Belgrade, at the time still part of

 3     Yugoslavia, and Sarajevo was 071.  So they are in Belgrade.

 4             And then it says:

 5             "And arrangements can be made for the tape to be handed over."

 6     So they are calling them in Belgrade for the purpose of a hand-over.  "We

 7     don't know where the hand-over will be.  I will still maintain contact

 8     with them until the hand-over."

 9             It's still the same.  That's obvious.  So who's going to be going

10     to collect the tape, this whoever person?  We'll have to take a written

11     request.  Where will he have to go then?  To Sarajevo?  I hope you

12     understand this.  Everything here indicates that the people will go to

13     their apartment in Belgrade to take the tape and that, in the meantime,

14     they would be in contact.  But this is not of great importance to me.

15     I'm interested in this cassette and what happened to it.  But this is

16     some kind of military to-do.  The only reference that we have is a phone

17     number in Belgrade.  And it says also, whoever collects the tape, meaning

18     the person who will go to get it.  But in essence this is some foul play.

19     These are some people working for the military.

20             I never worked for the military.  Let me remind you:

21     Mr. McCloskey, after the first questioning, and you had all my details,

22     stated that I never worked for any police or military structures.  This

23     is an affront to me.  This was done by people who maybe were not

24     journalists but --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should be very careful to use words like

Page 14565

 1     "provocation" and "affront."  You are a witness.  And you are questioned.

 2             And I put a final question before the break to you:  What is the

 3     difference between hand-over and seizure?  Or is it the same?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this last quotation

 5     I read is something that leads me to believe, and I hope that in

 6     explanation I was convincing, leads me to believe that they are doing

 7     this on a voluntary basis, because obviously they are somehow linked up

 8     with Mr. Milutinovic, the person who had forbade me from entering

 9     Srebrenica.  I can glean that, reading the text.

10             So it was a voluntary hand-over.  They got in touch with the army

11     and not the other way around.  Still, it's obvious that they are in

12     Belgrade, not Bosnia, and Republika Srpska is a different state here.

13     And all this is something I knew nothing about at the time because I was

14     in Canada then.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is the source of your estimation that this

16     hand-over took place in Belgrade?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me to read it again, I

18     don't know whether it was translated to you, because there it is stated

19     Vesna and Zeljko are in Belgrade.

20             I don't know their address, but they can be reached at telephone

21     number such and such.  It's a Belgrade phone number.  And arrangements

22     can be made for the tape to be handed over.  It says:  For the tape to be

23     handed over.

24             I will still maintain contacts with them until the hand-over.

25     Until.

Page 14566

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... can --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Therefore --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How can you draw a conclusion from this text that

 4     the hand-over took place in Belgrade?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm basing it on

 6     logical conclusions.  We do not have enough information.  Maybe the

 7     Prosecution has additional information, but this is the only conclusion I

 8     can make.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't want to hear any more -- anything about

10     that.

11             Thank you very much.  We must have the second break now, and we

12     will resume at 6.25.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.55 p.m.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16                           --- On resuming at 6.28 p.m.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, please continue.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Dr. Petrovic, you mentioned, when we looked at the other

20     document - I think it was 1338, P1338; that was the receipt - that you

21     recognised the name Beara on that document, and you indicated that he was

22     with the intelligence service of the VRS.  Do you recall that?

23        A.   Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

24        Q.   Did you know that naval captain Ljubisa Beara was directly

25     subordinated to General Tolimir in 1995?

Page 14567

 1        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, I didn't know about that fact at the time.  I

 2     knew that he was a member of the army, but I didn't know what his

 3     position was.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5        A.   And I don't know him personally.

 6        Q.   I want to take you to another area.  You indicated, at page 14492

 7     in a question put to you by General Tolimir concerning the prisoners in

 8     Sandici, and he asked you, at line 24 of that page, or beginning at

 9     line 24 of this page:

10             Please tell us, later on, on page 67 you said -- actually, you

11     said on page 57 ... that according to your estimate in the Sandici meadow

12     there was a total as many people as could fit into one single bus.  Can

13     you please clarify this a little bit for us so that we would have a

14     clearer picture of that?  Thank you.  Because you were asked by cross

15     questions about one and the same subject."

16             I think he means direct?

17             And your answer is, and this is at page 14493:

18             "General, sir, it's the same as with the dead in front of the

19     hangar in Kravica; it's just my personal estimate.  Once again I say

20     that -- perhaps it's not appropriate," and you make a reference to a

21     football match and basically that it's a running estimate.

22             So then you say, at line 14:

23             "So perhaps around 100 people or less.  Today I think that would

24     be about" [sic] "100 people."

25             So I wanted to ask you some questions based on this.

Page 14568

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  The record was not complete.

 2     After line 14 of page 66, you clarified that Mr. Tolimir was not

 3     referring to cross but to examination-in-chief.  That was missing here on

 4     the record.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 6             I think what I'd like to do is to go into private session because

 7     there's another area of cross-examination which overlaps with this and I

 8     think it would be appropriate to do that.  If I may.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14569











11  Pages 14569-14573 redacted. Private session.















Page 14574

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue, Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Okay.  This is the statement of the person that I just referenced

25     in private session.

Page 14575

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4        Q.   And what I'd like to do is to take you to page 5 of the English.

 5     And I'll need some help to find it in the B/C/S.  It should be ERN

 6     ending -- wait a minute.  Bear with me one second.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We need to go two pages ahead in the English.

 9     Okay.  And I think I'll need some help to find it in the B/C/S.  Okay.

10     It should be page 5 in the B/C/S.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is already on the screen.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh, great.

13        Q.   Here, this individual talks about what transpires at the meadow.

14     And he says that a Serb soldier with a red bandana called those who were

15     born in 1979 and 1980 to stand up.  About ten stood up, but he didn't.

16     Two other individuals told him to get up, and he said he replied that he

17     was older, but they told him that he looked younger.  And he says:

18             "I told them I could not leave my father.  But they just grabbed

19     me and made me stand up."

20             And that he'd never heard or seen of these two individuals again.

21     He was the last to stand up.  And he says the soldier with the red

22     bandana told him to go faster as the youngsters started walking towards

23     the road.

24             "One of the soldiers sitting on the tank cursed the soldier with

25     the red bandana when he let me go."

Page 14576

 1             And then he says, in the next paragraph, that on the asphalt road

 2     he got into a civilian blue truck with a yellow canopy and he says there

 3     were approximately 20 women that had from Potocari.  Some of the women

 4     mentioned that they were in Sandici, outside Kravica.  And a Serbian

 5     soldier had stopped this truck on the road "and we, the 11 youngsters,

 6     boarded the truck.  The truck stopped in Vlasenica for approximately ten

 7     minutes and locals threw stones at us but also cigarettes."

 8             And he further describes what happens to him after this.

 9             Is this consistent with your recollection of how you saw -- or

10     what you saw happen to these youngsters, as he calls them, while you were

11     at Sandici?

12        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, from this perspective 16 years later, and I, of

13     course, have not read this document, but I will repeat, I say that

14     Mr. Borovcanin's order that all these children - I remember that there

15     were at least ten of them - around ten or so, as far as I can remember,

16     was to stop the convoy and to have these youngsters board the buses or

17     vehicles.  So this corresponds somewhat to that.  But I did not see what

18     was happening in the buses.  I didn't come near because it was a bit down

19     the road, as far as I can remember, that the traffic was stopped, and I

20     simply filmed that.  I didn't film this, but if I did, perhaps we would

21     be talking differently now.

22             I don't know what else to tell you by way of my answer.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I have your answer.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just go back one page in the

25     English.

Page 14577

 1        Q.   And I just wanted to ask you one thing on this -- about one thing

 2     on this page.  And that's on the -- about the fifth paragraph -- well,

 3     next-to-last paragraph, where he states that he was in a group of

 4     approximately -- well, approximately a thousand people.  And this is

 5     where -- the area where they were gathered.  And that would be in the

 6     area of Sandici.  He describes -- he describes that he saw a lot of

 7     baggage, rucksacks, and personal belongings along the track, which I

 8     think means path, as we approached the main road.  And then he was

 9     directed to a partly destroyed house on the right side close to the

10     asphalt road.

11             Now, you were asked some questions by General Tolimir about how

12     many people were on the meadow, and you said it was about a bus-load

13     full, I think.  About 100.  Do you accept that there were substantially

14     more than 100 people in that meadow on the day that you were filming

15     there, if not at the time that you were filming there?

16        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, at the moment or moments when I was there, some

17     of my footage shows quite a wide view of the entire meadow on the other

18     side of the road.  In my footage, I think even if professionals were

19     could count, there couldn't be more than 100 people.  I did not spend the

20     whole day.  I came there in the afternoon and then I left.  I was going

21     around quickly, there was a lot of shooting, and you forget that I risked

22     my life in order to film that.

23             At the moment when I filmed that, at the moments that we spent

24     there, I depicted all the people in the footage.  There was no reason for

25     me to depict 100 and hide 900.  How could I do that?  Because in my

Page 14578

 1     footage, if you have look at the reportage, you can see the entire space.

 2     But I did not spend 24 hours in the area.  These were just minutes, 10 or

 3     15 minutes.  I don't know anymore.  But it was short because the whole

 4     area along the road was unsafe.  The fighting was not finished on that

 5     day nor on the following day.  And this is something that is often

 6     forgotten.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             If this witness boarded a bus at the time, when Dr. Petrovic was

11     looking, how could he have seen one thousand people than if Dr. Petrovic

12     saw and filmed only 100 people?  He shouldn't be asked about something

13     that could have happened earlier or later.  We could ask about something

14     that happened earlier, but Mr. Vanderpuye should ask him could he have

15     seen anything different from what the other witness did see.  Could they

16     have seen the same event at the same moment.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness provided his answer.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye, please --

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I remind that we are approaching the end of

22     today's hearing.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I've got maybe two minutes more.  I will tender

24     the document that I have first, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is P933.  It is marked for identification,

Page 14579

 1     if I'm not mistaken.  Do you recall the reason for that?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I believe it was marked for identification

 3     because it was the subject of a -- of a 92 bis application.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   And I just wanted to ask you, Dr. Petrovic, are, you aware --

 7     first of all, did you discuss the number of prisoners that were at the

 8     Sandici meadow, at the Kravica warehouse, with Mr. Borovcanin any time

 9     during the period of time that you were there?

10        A.   Mr. Vanderpuye, that is also possible.  Though in my earlier

11     statements I believe I said that I do not remember us discussing that.

12     Everything was still in progress.  I was concentrated on what I was

13     filming.  And he had his military activities to take care of.  Perhaps he

14     told you in one of his statements that perhaps we did discuss that.

15             What I can remember now is that in the reportage which I

16     published in the newspapers, I described in quite some detail how the

17     operation which began on the 4th or 5th of July was carried out and

18     conducted from the military point of view, and it's possible that he

19     provided me with some general information, for example, from which axes

20     the Serbs were coming, where were the Muslim positions, because this is

21     mountainous terrain.  This was fighting in the mountains.  It was quite

22     difficult.  And I remember that there was this part in the interview

23     which you quoted on several occasions, but I really cannot tell you

24     exactly.

25             If you could help me by referring me to some of his statements, I

Page 14580

 1     don't think there's anything disputed if we did discuss that.  But if we

 2     did, then the main subject was this part of my future report, namely how

 3     the operation was conducted, I think up to the 11th.

 4        Q.   I just want to know if you can recall it.  If you can't, that's

 5     fine.

 6             Let me ask you this:  Are you aware that Mr. Borovcanin reported

 7     on 13th of July that his forces had captured or received surrendered

 8     Muslim prisoners of about 1500 between the 12th and the

 9     13th of July, 1995.  Are you aware of that?

10        A.   No.  You will understand, Mr. Vanderpuye, that I'm a civilian and

11     a journalist.  He had already done a lot.  And this is a military piece

12     of information that he had no reason to import to a civilian, regardless

13     of how well-known the civilian may have been at the time.

14        Q.   All right.  I just want to put up on the screen, if I could,

15     65 ter 5338.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And then we'll be finished, Mr. President.

17        Q.   As you can see, this is a report headed "Ministry of Interior,

18     MUP, Special Police Brigade," dated 13 July.  And you can see it's sent

19     to Pale Police staff, Vogosca Police staff and the Special Police Brigade

20     at Janja.  If we go to the bottom of this document, you can see, and it's

21     the second page in the English, that it's issued by Ljubisa Borovcanin

22     who is the deputy commander of the Special Police Brigade.  And in the

23     second-to-last paragraph you can see that it reads that:

24             "In the night between 12 and the 13 July, the armed Muslim group

25     launched an attack in the direction of Konjevic Polje.  In the combat

Page 14581

 1     that lasted several hours and which continued throughout the day, the

 2     enemy sustained a loss of 200 soldiers who were killed, and we captured,

 3     or had surrender to us, around 1500 Muslim soldiers, and" [sic] "the

 4     number increases by the hour."

 5             You weren't aware of these circumstances, I take it, while you

 6     were staying with Mr. Borovcanin for the 40 hours that were in the area

 7     on the 13th and 14th of July; is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct, Mr. Vanderpuye.  All this happened before my

 9     arrival, and Mr. McCloskey wrote that I had nothing to do with either

10     military or the police.  So, in other words, this is not a piece of

11     information to be given to a civilian, so I didn't know about this.  This

12     comports with my story.

13        Q.   That's all I wanted to know is if you were aware.

14        A.   [In English] Excuse me.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would tender this document.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And that concludes my re-examination.  Thank

18     you.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5338 shall be

20     assigned Exhibit P2238.  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             You will be pleased, sir, to hear that this concludes your

24     examination here in this trial.  You may now return to your normal

25     activities, and the Chamber would like to thank you that you were able to

Page 14582

 1     come to The Hague and to testify here in this trial.

 2             We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow, in the

 3     afternoon, 2.15 in this courtroom.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day

 8                           of May, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.