Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14656

 1                           Thursday, 26 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.  My

 6     apologies for the delayed start.  I was involved in another meeting and

 7     couldn't be here in time.

 8             The witness should be brought in, please.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Janc.

12             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome back to the courtroom.

14             I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still

15     applies.

16             Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

17             Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             May peace reign in this house, and I wish that today's court

20     proceedings end as God wills and not as I do.

21             I would like to wish a good afternoon to Mr. Janc, and we will

22     continue where we left off yesterday.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We saw a photograph yesterday of Tolimir in a civilian suit and

Page 14657

 1     civilian clothing.  Can you please tell us if that was broadcast,

 2     published, a year after the Zepa events, and are there any electronic

 3     records of that on a tape or anything like that?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Actually, I don't know exactly when it was broadcasted, but my

 5     understanding is that it was broadcasted immediately after these Zepa

 6     events.  So I would say around July 1995.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P2240 so that we

 8     can see if there is an electronic record there of when this footage was

 9     created.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   And have you heard the anchor of Television Sarajevo saying that

13     this happened last year in July?  Did you hear that part of the

14     translation or did you see the quote?  Thank you.

15        A.   Yes, you're right, that's correct, I heard that.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you hear it in the Serbian language or in

17     English?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I heard that in B/C/S language, so it was said

19     like that, yes.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have finished with this segment

24     of the footage, since the witness has seen that it was created a year

25     after the events in Zepa.

Page 14658

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   My question is:  You, as an investigator, did you perhaps find

 3     out where the Bosnia and Herzegovina Radio and Television obtained the

 4     footage P2240, and was the camera able to film it live on the 24th of

 5     July, 1995, at Boksanica, that particular segment showing Tolimir in

 6     civilian clothing?  Thank you.

 7        A.   I would like to clarify first your quote that I said that it was

 8     created a year after the events of Zepa.  I think I didn't say that.  But

 9     from the video, itself, we can see that this portion -- this segment was

10     broadcasted a year later.  I'm still sure that the actual footage was

11     created at the time when this event took place.  That was on 24 of July,

12     1995.  When it was first broadcasted, I don't know.  This particular

13     footage, yes, it was broadcasted a year later, but I'm sure that some

14     other -- some other segments of this same footage were broadcasted

15     already before.

16             And to answer your second part of the question, no, we have no

17     information, and I think we haven't obtained from the Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina Radio and Television when it was first broadcasted.  This

19     information was not on there letter, nor was there information about how

20     they obtained this video included in it.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

22             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

23             Do you know the date on which it was broadcast?

24             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, this particular footage, I would

25     assume, around July 1996, because it says a year -- one year ago, this

Page 14659

 1     and this happened at this point.  So this particular footage was

 2     broadcasted at that time on BH Television.

 3             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Are you able to answer whether the Muslim

 7     television was able to film the events at the time they took place on the

 8     24th of July, 1995, at Boksanica, at which occasion Tolimir was shown to

 9     be wearing civilian clothing?  Were they able to come and to record this

10     footage?

11        A.   I don't know why -- to which Muslim television you're referring

12     to.  But if you mean BH Television, at that time I'm certain they were

13     not able to film this event.  There must have been some Serbian

14     television involved in it, because we have evidence and we have other

15     footages from Zepa from that point in time which were filmed by SRT,

16     which is Radio/Television of Serbia, and also from the Television of the

17     Republika Srpska at that time.  Also, there is one footage from CNN from

18     25th of July, when that journalist from CNN was allowed to enter this

19     area and interview General Mladic.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  And in this footage, did you at any time

21     see General Tolimir in the suit that was shown in this footage of

22     Exhibit P2204 [as interpreted]?

23        A.   If you are now talking about the footage we have been just

24     watching a few minutes ago, yes, we can see you there in a suit.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see me in any other segment, other than that

Page 14660

 1     one?  Did you see me on any other footage?  Did you see Tolimir in

 2     civilian clothing in any other recordings, other than what we have seen

 3     in P2204 [as interpreted]?  Thank you.

 4        A.   The only other one would be, I think, the one when you

 5     participated in Dayton Agreement.  On that, I think, that video, we can

 6     see you in a suit.  But apart from those two, I don't have any

 7     recollection that you are wearing suits.  You're always in uniform.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One clarification for the record.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, are you referring to P2204 or P2240?

10             I see Mr. Gajic on his feet.  Mr. Gajic.

11             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good afternoon to all.

12             It's a mistake in the transcript.  We were thinking of P2240.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was not a problem of the transcript.  We heard

14     the interpretation.  Thank you.

15             Mr. Tolimir, carry on, please.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Mr. Janc, was this footage, P2240 that we just looked at,

18     submitted to any kind of expertise or any kind of check as to whether

19     it's authentic material or whether the material is not authentic, whether

20     it was perhaps edited and the image of Tolimir in the civilian suit was

21     inserted into the material?  Thank you.

22        A.   No, the answer would be, no, we haven't asked any expert for this

23     expertise to be done.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please state for the transcript whether you

25     personally checked the authenticity of this footage, P2240?

Page 14661

 1        A.   Yes, I would say yes, because authenticity can be checked through

 2     different means, and there are different ways to check it.  One of those

 3     would be asking the witnesses who participated in this event if this is

 4     real footage of what was going on, and I think we have about -- the

 5     confirmation from Mr. Hamdija Torlak, who participated at this meeting,

 6     that this footage is authentic.  The other way would be, you know, what

 7     you can see on video, on what you can hear there.  And so we can see

 8     Mladic signing a piece of paper, and we were able to locate that

 9     agreement from 24th of July, 1995, agreement on disarmament of

10     able-bodied men from Zepa, and this is actually the paper which was

11     signed there.  So there are different ways of authentication, and this is

12     what we have done in respect to this video.

13                           [Defence counsel confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should switch off your microphone if you have

15     an internal discussion.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Janc, was Mr. Torlak asked, during his testimony, whether

18     Tolimir is shown in the image and whether this footage was authentic?

19     I think you testified yesterday that no one was asked that question.

20     Thank you.

21        A.   I think he was asked for both things.  Actually, he was

22     explaining the meeting on 24 of July, and then he was presented this

23     video, and he confirmed that this is, indeed, the video or the meeting

24     which took place on the 24 of July.

25        Q.   Mr. Janc, there is no incrimination here.  All I'm asking you to

Page 14662

 1     do is to tell us the truth as to what happened so we don't have to

 2     speculate.

 3             I'm going to ask now to show an insert of the footage on

 4     Avdo Palic, and that is the number --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreters kindly ask the accused to

 6     repeat the number.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the testimony of Mr. Torlak is in

 8     our transcript of our hearing.  The witness was not present, but you were

 9     present, and the Chamber, and representatives of the OTP.

10             Mr. Vanderpuye.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon to

12     you.

13             In addition to the objection that I would raise to the manner in

14     when he put the question to Mr. Janc, saying something about whether or

15     not it's incriminating or for Mr. Janc to tell the truth, I would object

16     to that because I think Mr. Janc's reputation is clear in front of this

17     Tribunal as having told the truth with respect to everything he's

18     testified about.  But I would add and reiterate my objection to the

19     extent that I believe that General Tolimir is obligated, under

20     Rule 90(H)(2), to the extent that he is insinuating or asserting that the

21     footage in question is -- has been doctored or has been manipulated in

22     some sense, if that's his position, to put that to the witness, to make

23     that claim.  To the extent that he has a good-faith basis to do it, it's

24     appropriate for him to do that, but he is obligated to do that to the

25     extent that he asserts, he contradicts the position of this witness under

Page 14663

 1     our Rules of Procedure.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you were asked by the Prosecutor to

 3     put your position to the witness before you put -- ask such a question.

 4     What is your position?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I also

 6     thank the Prosecutor.

 7             I'm saying -- what I meant to say is that it wasn't

 8     incriminating, as far as I was concerned.  It can be incriminating only

 9     in relation to somebody who's shown in the footage.  It does not refer to

10     the witness at all, so the objection is not grounded.  I did not mean to

11     imply any kind of incrimination of Mr. Janc.  I just did mention to the

12     witness to speak the truth, and this is also something that you asked the

13     witness to do.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At this point in time, just to clarify the legal

15     background, I would like to read into the record the Rule Mr. Vanderpuye

16     has mentioned.  This is Rule 90(H)(2).  I quote:

17             "In the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give

18     evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel,"

19     and in that case you are counsel, Mr. Tolimir, "shall put to that witness

20     the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel appears which

21     is in contradiction to the evidence given by the witness."

22             Taking that into account, the Prosecutor asked you to tell the

23     witness first if you are saying that this video is fabricated and your

24     appearance in the video was inserted.

25             You may consult your legal assistant.

Page 14664

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             There is no need.  The Defence believes that the footage is not

 3     authentic, that the footage in which Tolimir appears in civilian clothing

 4     at the meeting with representatives of Zepa.  I would just kindly ask for

 5     answers to my questions, and I have now stated the position of the

 6     Defence.

 7             May I now continue with my questions, because I have a lot of

 8     other questions that are more important than this irrelevant question.

 9     Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If this is an irrelevant question, you shouldn't

11     put it to the witness, Mr. Tolimir.  That would be a waste of court time.

12             Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             There are actually two aspects to this issue.  One is if it's the

15     Defence position that General Tolimir is not wearing the blue suit, as we

16     can see in the video, and the second is whether General Tolimir is

17     asserting that he's not present in the video, blue suit or not, which

18     goes both to the issue of alibi as well as to the issues raised under

19     Rule 90(H)(2).  It would be helpful to know what the Defence position is

20     in respect of that.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             Mr. Tolimir is counsel to explain the position.  I think this is

23     not a question you should address the Court, Mr. Gajic, at least not

24     without an application of your client.

25                           [Defence counsel confers]

Page 14665

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             When I said that earlier, what I meant was the question that was

 3     being put to me by the Prosecutor, because that was not relevant.  What

 4     we're talking about here is only the authenticity of the footage, and not

 5     the topic of the role of Tolimir at the meeting or the role he had at a

 6     meeting with representatives of the Muslims.  All I'm speaking about at

 7     this point is the authenticity of the footage, not about the authenticity

 8     of the events or the participants and so on and so forth.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we are all talking about the authenticity

10     of this footage, if it was fabricated or if it is recording a real scene

11     which happened.  The Prosecutor asked you if it is your position that

12     this was fabricated and your appearance was inserted.  That was the

13     question of the Prosecutor.  I don't think, in light of the Rules, that

14     this is irrelevant.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             I'm not sure I understand what is it that you're insisting on,

17     but I clearly said the footage of myself in civilian clothes is not

18     authentic.  I don't want to discuss the issue of editing or not editing.

19     I'm just saying it's not an authentic film.  Allow me please to put the

20     question, and the Chamber will have an opportunity to reach its decision.

21     We can speak about it for three hours, otherwise.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             And may I can make it a bit clearer for General Tolimir, and that

25     is:  If he's asserting that the film, which shows him in a blue suit, is

Page 14666

 1     fabricated, there are two issues that arise from this.  Is the nature of

 2     the fabrication that he alleges the fact that it's a blue suit that he

 3     appears in or is the nature of the fabrication the fact that he appears

 4     in the video at all?  And the reason why that's important is: one, that

 5     it's mandated under the Rules to the extent that it contradicts this

 6     witness's testimony, that he put to the witness that that is his position

 7     as to one, or the other, or both, or something else altogether; and the

 8     second reason why it's important is because, to the extent that he may

 9     intend to assert an alibi defence concerning his presence as depicted in

10     the video, that is something that he's also required to disclose to the

11     Prosecution in advance of raising such a defence under our Rules.

12             So it's important for General Tolimir to put to this witness what

13     his position is, either, I'm not there, or, I'm not wearing a blue suit,

14     or, This isn't the 24th of July in Boksanica, whatever his case may be,

15     but it is essential and required under the Rules that he put this to the

16     witness.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Please, if it's necessary to waste time on objections, I can

20     understand that, but Tolimir clearly stated that the footage is not

21     authentic, the footage of him being shown at that meeting in civilian

22     clothes.  I don't know what is it that the Prosecutor wants from me.  I

23     also asked the witness whether he had checked all the films, had he seen

24     it earlier in some footage, because he wasn't there.  I must ask him

25     about these things because he was not the participant of the events.

Page 14667

 1     He's telling us that Torlak confirmed it.  We will go through Torlak's

 2     transcript, and we will see whether Torlak said that this was authentic

 3     footage or did he only say, This is Tolimir, after he was shown this

 4     person.  Please allow me to do that.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you don't understand the

 6     position of the Prosecution because you are not responding to that.

 7             I would like to refer you to page 5, lines 18 through 21, of

 8     today's transcript.  I quote:

 9             "Was this footage submitted to any kind of expertise or any kind

10     of check as to whether it's authentic material or whether the material is

11     not authentic, whether it was perhaps edited and the image of Tolimir in

12     the civilian suit was inserted into the material?"

13             That was the question.  And in relation to that part,

14     Mr. Vanderpuye raised his concern.

15             Do you want to add something, Mr. Vanderpuye?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think you've got it correct, Mr. President.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, is it your position that your

19     appearance in the video was inserted?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I still don't

21     understand what is it that you insist upon.  I asked a question whether

22     Tolimir, in civilian clothes, was inserted into the footage.  You're

23     asking me to elaborate my question.  Maybe then it would be better for me

24     to go and testify than the witness, who wasn't present or an eye-witness

25     to the events.  I thought I clearly asked what is it that I would like to

Page 14668

 1     hear.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should consult your legal adviser.  He is

 3     assisting you in legal matters.  This is a legal matter.  We are dealing

 4     here with Rule 90 of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and it is not

 5     just a question of going on with the examination of the witness, but it's

 6     a legal matter if you are conducting your cross-examination according to

 7     the Rules.  You should consult with your legal adviser.

 8                           [Defence counsel confers]

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are saying that

10     the footage is not authentic, the footage of myself in a blue suit.  We

11     are not entering into any other issues there, whether someone was or was

12     not there, because this witness was not an eye-witness to the event.  I

13     just put the question that you read to me a moment ago, had he seen

14     Tolimir in other footage wearing the same clothes, the clothes that we

15     can see in P2440 [as interpreted].  I don't understand what I'm supposed

16     to be doing now; answering the questions put by the Prosecutor?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you're in a difficult situation

18     because you're not a lawyer.  This is understandable.  You are

19     representing yourself, but you have a legal adviser.  If he doesn't or is

20     not able to assist you in this matter, I would like to put a question to

21     the witness to resolve the situation.

22             Mr. Janc, have you ever checked if those who were in the

23     possession of the video, this specific part of the footage was edited in

24     a way that persons were inserted or deleted from this footage?  Do you

25     have any knowledge about that?

Page 14669

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can -- I can say that we, as

 2     testified, obtained this same footage from three different sources, one

 3     in 2000 already, the second one in 2009 or 2010, and the last one just

 4     recently.  The only source for checking that would be the last one which

 5     we obtained from BH Radio/Television, so I'm not sure if on that letter

 6     which they provided to us it is specified anything about the

 7     authenticity.  But other than that, no, we haven't checked the issue of

 8     the editing.  And as regard to the authenticity, I think I was -- I made

 9     myself clear before, how we can assess the authenticity of the video,

10     itself.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What kind of material did you receive, as the

12     OTP?  Was it a CD, a DVD, was it a video-tape, VHC cassette?  I'm

13     referring to all the material you have received.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  For the first time which we received in 2000,

15     this is documentary on Avdo Palic story, that one was on VHS tape.  The

16     second source was YouTube, so I downloaded it electronically from that

17     source.  So the third source, the BiH Television provided it to us on a

18     CD as well, I think.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The so-called documentary on the Avdo Palic

20     story, as you called it, you mentioned it already yesterday, can you tell

21     us about the producer of this documentary, who made that, who broadcasted

22     it, where was it broadcast?  What is your knowledge about that?

23             THE WITNESS:  The author of this documentary is Swiss Television,

24     and the person -- the director of this documentary was Beltrami, Marco, I

25     believe.  And we contacted him through e-mail in order to clarify this

Page 14670

 1     specific segment.  And as I testified, inside -- within the documentary,

 2     when you are watching it, there is this segment going on on a television,

 3     and this is commented by Dr. Mehmed Heljic during the documentary.  So

 4     this segment of Tolimir being in a blue suit is going on on a television,

 5     and the camera is filming this portion of video.  And what I asked

 6     Mr. Beltrami, or my colleague asked him, was if he is in possession of

 7     the VHS tape which is going on -- which is rolling on on a television,

 8     and his answer was, no, he's not in a possession of this video-tape, and

 9     his recollection was that at the time when they were filming this portion

10     of the documentary together with Mr. Mehmed Heljic, that he was in

11     possession of this VHS tape.

12             I contacted Mr. Heljic, I think, two years ago or a year ago in

13     order to ask him this question, if he is in possession of this VHS tape,

14     and his answer was no, and also he was having no recollection, either,

15     who was the originator of the tape at the time when the documentary was

16     made.

17             So I've got no independent information, nor from the director of

18     the documentary, nor from Mr. Mehmed Heljic, where this tape which was

19     broadcasted on the TV might have been at the time, so we didn't get that

20     tape.  And what we have used for these proceedings here was then just the

21     segment which we can see on the documentary, itself.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you, or somebody on your behalf, check this

23     video-tape physically if there were any manipulations?

24             THE WITNESS:  I was having this tape of -- on documentary on

25     Avdo Palic in my hand.  It's not a normal VHS tape.  It's a smaller

Page 14671

 1     format of this tape.  But we haven't -- we haven't sent this tape to any

 2     experts, because according to the director of the film, that's the

 3     documentary which they have made.  And it was at that time publicly

 4     available, so I'm not sure where exactly it was broadcasted, but it was

 5     publicly available.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that clarification.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, continue your questioning, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

 9     you, Mr. Janc.

10             Could we please now see a sequence from the film about

11     Avdo Palic, 65 ter 365.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Janc, can you please tell us whether the footage of Tolimir

15     in a blue suit was something taken from the show on Avdo Palic?  And I'm

16     talking about the segment that was recorded in the house of the former

17     war president of Zepa, the footage that we just saw on our screens.  And

18     could you also tell us whether this was included into the compilation

19     P740?

20        A.   So this is the footage I was talking a few minutes ago on the

21     questions by -- on the question by Judge, so this is actually the

22     documentary on Avdo Palic, and the segment, when we can see that

23     Dr. Mehmed Heljic is watching television and is commenting on this video.

24     Next to a TV, you can see that the light is blinking, and I assume that

25     this is VHS recorder.  And, yes, we have taken exactly this segment to

Page 14672

 1     put it into our trial compilation video.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the number, 65 ter 365, is wrong.

 3     It is not this document, this film we have seen on the screen just now.

 4     Please give us the right number.

 5             Mr. Gajic.

 6             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a 65 ter 3465.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this correction.

 8             Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

10     you, Mr. Janc.

11             Could we please now see P2239 in e-court.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the last video we

13     have seen on the screen?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3465 shall be

17     assigned Exhibit D267.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the video was received by the

19     Chamber, but the Registry needs a CD of it.  It's not in the possession

20     of it yet, and, therefore, at the moment it's only marked for

21     identification, until you will give a CD of it.

22             Mr. Gajic.

23             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will submit it

24     either today or, at the latest, tomorrow, and then this issue will be

25     settled.  Thank you.

Page 14673

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, carry on, please.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Tolimir.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone is off.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Janc, would you please look at the document on the screen.

 7     This is a document by their Ministry of the Foreign Affairs of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, sent on the 11th of March this year.  And then we

 9     see, under "Subject," your reference, "03/1-05-4-26/11 of 2 February

10     2011."  So this is a response to a request put by the OTP.  And it is

11     stated here clearly, and I will read:

12             "Referring to your paper as noted above, and the request for all

13     video footage relating to Zepa in July 1995, please note that the State

14     Investigative and Protection Agency sent relevant papers to ..."

15             And then we have a number of shortened names of various

16     institutions:

17             "... and TV Sarajevo with the request for their archives to be

18     searched for the requested video footage, and for such video footage to

19     be provided if possible."

20             And then they submitted the materials.

21             And this is my question:  Did the OTP ask this from the TV of

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina after Mr. Torlak testified or not?  And Mr. Torlak

23     testified on the 25th of August until the 6th of September, 2010.

24        A.   So my answer would be, yes, it's self-evident that this was after

25     he testified.

Page 14674

 1        Q.   Does that mean that the OTP had in its possession the footage of

 2     a person in a blue suit even before Bosnia and Herzegovina submitted the

 3     video materials referred to in the document on the screen?

 4        A.   The OTP had in its possession the video of Avdo Palic's story,

 5     the documentary, which it obtained in 2000, and also the two segments

 6     from YouTube before Hamdija Torlak testified here in The Hague in this

 7     Tribunal -- in these proceedings.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please explain what YouTube is, and who can

 9     put footage on YouTube?

10        A.   Yes.  YouTube is publicly-available source on internet where

11     everybody can put their videos on it, so everybody can put their videos

12     on this source, and also then download it -- download them from this

13     source.

14        Q.   Thank you.  The footage taken from YouTube, can they be described

15     as proof of authenticity of an event or could they be anything else?

16        A.   I would say they can be anything.  But in this case, I downloaded

17     them just to corroborate the other video from 2000 and to compare those

18     two if they are -- they are the same.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to interrupt you again.  I'm

20     sorry about that.  But in relation to the video from the Avdo Palic

21     documentary, there are more administrative problems.

22             First, there was no transcript up-loaded into e-court.  That

23     should be done by the Defence and forwarded to the Registry.  And the

24     surrogate sheet the Registry received has the wrong number.  It indicates

25     that it should relate to an Exhibit P3465, but this is the 65 ter number.

Page 14675

 1     This is a mixture of two different numbers.  We need a clear record of

 2     that.  Please help the Registry to have a record of all documents and

 3     videos in an appropriate way.  It must remain MFI'd until this problem is

 4     solved.

 5             Mr. Gajic.

 6             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we identified

 7     the segment of the video footage only last night, we will do it today,

 8     and I believe by Monday everything will be cleared up.  And the 65 ter

 9     number is an OTP 65 ter number, so maybe there was just a typo in their

10     document.  I assume that is the cause of it, and nothing else.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not quite sure if this is correct.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It seems to be a typo, indeed, made by the

15     Prosecution.  Thank you very much.  I hope that will be resolved just in

16     order to have a clear record which document we are referring to when we

17     are dealing with it.

18             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

20     you, Mr. Janc.  I apologise to you again.  The Prosecutor believed that

21     I'm questioning your credibility, but I was really discussing only the

22     authenticity of the footage, and I also believe that this is not very

23     important either for the case or for myself.

24             And I would like to continue now, or we can do it after the break

25     and to discuss your report.

Page 14676

 1             Could we please have P170.  It's a report drafted by Mr. Janc of

 2     the 21st of April, 2010.  Thank you.  It's entitled "Summary of Forensic

 3     Evidence, Exhumation of Mass Graves, April 2010."

 4             Mr. President, I just wanted to ask whether the Prosecution want

 5     to conduct its re-examination now, but then you told me that it's not

 6     time for a break now before we move to a different topic.  But still

 7     maybe the Prosecutor would like to state its position on this.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you want to move to the other part of your

 9     cross-examination?  Is that your intention?

10             Thank you very much.

11             Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             I have understood General Tolimir's position.  We have no

14     redirect examination concerning the video material.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it that both parties agree that this

16     concludes the testimony of Mr. Janc in relation to the authenticity of

17     video footage.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this is also the position of the Defence, I

20     take it.

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             We have nearly half an hour left before the first break.  You

24     should continue with your cross-examination in relation to exhumations.

25             Mr. Tolimir.

Page 14677

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             We can see on the screen the front page of this report.  It's

 3     Exhibit P170.  Can we please see the contents so that the witness could

 4     use it to refresh his recollection.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This is my question:  You used the term "victims," referring both

 7     to those people who were buried in mass graves and to those whose remains

 8     were found on the surface.  In relation to this, could you please

 9     describe what did you refer to when you used the term "victims"?

10        A.   Yes, I will repeat what I think I already described in relation

11     to my testimony on this issue.

12             The victim was the person who was killed or died in other

13     circumstances after the fall of Srebrenica and Zepa enclave.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Does your report -- or is your report

15     neutral in the sense of description whether a person was killed in combat

16     or was killed in an unlawful way?

17        A.   My report, itself, presents the numbers of the individuals so far

18     identified from the graves which are mass graves, then individual graves,

19     and also those who were found on a surface, and both categories of these

20     victims are included in my report.  I testified, and I was clear,

21     I think, during my testimony so far, that we can find the combat

22     casualties within the category of surface remains.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc, but I think you didn't answer my question.

24     Is your position neutral; namely, that these people could either be

25     victims or casualties of combat?  How can we reconcile this?  And did you

Page 14678

 1     devote specific attention to this issue in your report so that one can

 2     see it clearly?  Thank you.

 3        A.   I will try to respond, but it's not easy, of course, and that's

 4     why it wasn't easy to say in my report, yes, that many victims was killed

 5     in combat and that many victims are victims of a crime, and that's why

 6     I'm making distinction between those who are found in those mass graves

 7     and those found on a surface.  And I think I was quite neutral in -- when

 8     deciding about this issue.  Although we have in total, I think, around

 9     700 victims found on a surface, and we can clearly conclude that most of

10     them were victims of combat, we will never know the exact number how many

11     of them were, indeed, victims of the combat, how many of the crimes, and

12     how many of some other acts like suicides or other different causes of

13     death.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  During the examination-in-chief, you

15     presented the position that all the persons who were buried in mass

16     graves were victims of unlawful actions.  On page 2027 of the transcript,

17     line 21, to page 2028, line 2, in response to:

18             "Q.  What's the number of people who were killed in combat and

19     what's the number of people who died as a result of unlawful activities?"

20             You said:

21             "I'd say most of them were killed as a result of unlawful

22     activities.  They were executed by shooting, and those who were found in

23     mass graves are part of that category.  Those who were found on surface,

24     for the majority of them we were not able to determine what really

25     happened to those people.  We will consider them casualties that fell in

Page 14679

 1     combat."

 2             And this is my question:  Do you only consider the 688 persons

 3     that you found in surface graves as casualties of combat or do you also

 4     consider that there are people in mass graves who were also victims or

 5     casualties caused by combat?

 6        A.   I would say that most of the people, if not all of them -- or,

 7     rather, the victims found in mass graves were victims of the crime; they

 8     were executed.  And not all of those which were found on the surface were

 9     casualties of combat, either.  We know that some of them were executed,

10     killed, and left on a surface, and that's where they were found.  Some of

11     them committed suicides and were not killed in combat, so we can't say

12     that all of these 688 persons which are found on a surface were all

13     killed in combat.  The number would be lower for those killed in combat,

14     based on what we have -- what we know now, based on how many identified

15     individuals we have right now.  Of course, this number will raise for a

16     few more victims in the future, but proportionally speaking, it will be

17     the same.  Most of them we can consider they're combat, although we'll

18     never know how many, exactly, were killed in combat.  But I'm talking

19     about those found on surface.  But when we are speaking about those found

20     in mass graves, so we have a lot of evidence talking and proving that

21     they were executed, killed.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  As an investigator, did you separate the

23     evidence concerning those who were killed or executed and those who were

24     killed in combat so that the trier of fact would be able to take a

25     position on the basis of your report instead of seeing it as a neutral

Page 14680

 1     category, namely, somebody can be victim of combat or victim of

 2     execution?  Did you do that on purpose, maybe?

 3        A.   No, nothing was on purpose, but in order to stay neutral on this

 4     thing.  And when I'm saying that it's not possible, it wasn't possible,

 5     and that most probably it won't be possible never to say exactly how many

 6     of those found on a surface were killed in combat.  I couldn't put the

 7     exact number in my report, and then I just put the section of surface

 8     remains.  I am clarifying it right now, and I clarified during my

 9     examination-in-chief and with cross-examination, what those people found

10     on a surface represent.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Please tell us whether you can tell us

12     about three or five persons -- at least can you tell us whether you

13     actually have witnesses who would testify to how these people had gotten

14     killed, or did you just mix all that up in your report without being able

15     to clearly show which ones died in combat and which were executed?

16        A.   We have many statements of those people, and not only statements.

17     Some of those individuals also testified here in this trial in relation

18     to how they survived certain executions and how their colleagues were

19     killed.  And when they named these individuals, I was able to identify

20     them.  Actually, not me, personally, but the ICMP identified them, and I

21     was able to locate them in their report, and I put their names into my --

22     into my report.  So there are statements which were reviewed by me, and

23     not only statements, also other documents, evidence, have been taken into

24     consideration in order to conclude certain -- certain things.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Now we're going to look at some of your

Page 14681

 1     documents, some evidence.  In your statement, you say that a total of 688

 2     persons' surface remains were identified.

 3             Can we please look at page 60 in the B/C/S version and page 43 in

 4     the English version, please.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of the document P170, I take it.  Correct?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please now look at that?  In the report, it's

 9     not clear that you separated or distinguished between the victims of

10     combat and other types of victims.

11             Can we now look at D168, please.  This is the testimony of

12     Mr. Butler in the Popovic case.  He was a Prosecution expert witness.  In

13     response to a question:

14             "Do you know that there are witnesses who say that there were, in

15     fact, 1.000 to 2.000 people from the column who died as a result of these

16     combat engagements?  Are you aware of that?"

17             Mr. Butler replied:

18             "As a gross period from 12 to 18 July?

19             "Q.  Correct.

20             "A.  I'm not.  I'm not aware of the specific number, but that

21     particular number sounds reasonable, given the context of the combat that

22     I'm aware of."

23             And if you see that that Prosecution expert witness agreed that

24     there were people who died in combat, and that he considers that number

25     to be a reasonable number, isn't that number greater than 688 that you

Page 14682

 1     cited in your report as the total number of remains of persons found?

 2        A.   I was shown this exact portion of Mr. Butler's testimony during

 3     cross-examination when I testified in Popovic case, and my answer now

 4     will be the same as it was in that case: that according to my analysis

 5     and my report, where we can see that so far 688 individuals is

 6     identified, which were found on a surface, that we can say that the total

 7     number, because we know that this is not the last number yet, the number

 8     will grow, and in total, when sometime in the future the whole exhumation

 9     and the identification process will be finished in Bosnia, will be closer

10     to 1.000, not to 2.000.  So I will say that more -- that my numbers here

11     included in my report are more correct than just estimate which was given

12     by Mr. Butler, because in my report you have actual names and we can

13     count these individuals by names.  We can see in Butler's report is just

14     a rough estimate.  So my response would be that the total number, it will

15     be final, it will be closer to 1.000, not 2.000 individuals.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You need your microphone, Mr. Tolimir.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  I apologise.  That number, was it

20     calculated only on the basis of the documents that you wanted to take

21     into account or was it done on the basis of all existing information at

22     the disposal of the Prosecutor about the number of the victims and the

23     manner and place of their execution?  Thank you.

24        A.   I've tried to take into consideration as many information, as

25     many documents, as many evidence I was able to find, read, and I was

Page 14683

 1     trying to put everything together in order to come to this conclusion.

 2     And so far, I will repeat, on the surface there have been found around --

 3     I will consult my report on page 6014, the ERN number is ending with this

 4     number.  We have, in total, 961 surface remains cases collected from the

 5     ground until January 2010.  So nowadays, we have a few more, so I would

 6     say around a thousand.  And out of these 961 cases, 688 individuals have

 7     been identified so far, and these were a kind of leading information for

 8     me to conclude how many of them have been, indeed, found on surface and

 9     to come to a conclusion how many of them might be find [sic] also in the

10     future.  I would say not many more, because we don't have that many

11     unidentified cases anymore which were collected from the ground.

12        Q.   Mr. Janc, these 688 persons that were identified, did you place

13     them in the graves -- in lists and in your records as victims of

14     executions or did you record them separately in your reports?  Thank you.

15        A.   They were recorded separately.  In addition to 688 individuals

16     which were found on the surface, we have - and I will again consult my

17     report, page 5 - we have 5.777 individuals which were identified in

18     graves.  Then we have also one category which I put under "Others," where

19     we have 76 individuals.  So all those together would be the total number

20     so far identified.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  And all those 5.777 that were buried in

22     graves, do you consider all of them as having been killed outside of

23     combat?  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes, I think that I already answered that most of them, if not

25     all of them, were, indeed, killed or executed.  Why I'm saying "most, if

Page 14684

 1     not at all," I can explain, because here, Glogova is the big issue,

 2     because we know that most of them there, again, are the victims from

 3     Kravica execution.  Apart from that, we also know that some bodies were

 4     taken from other locations which were picked up along the road, the

 5     Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.  I think a victim testified here about this

 6     procedure going on.  And so those were also brought into the same grave.

 7     And for those victims which were, according to this individual, around 15

 8     or 30 of them in total, we can't say if they were killed in combat or

 9     were executed.  That's why I'm saying most of them, if not all of them,

10     are victims of the execution in these mass graves.

11        Q.   Mr. Janc, are you thinking of Protected Witness PW-064 when you

12     say this?  Thank you.

13        A.   It's difficult for me to say because I don't -- I don't know the

14     individual witnesses by these numbers.  But I believe you are right,

15     so -- but I would rather check the name of the individual, if possible.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you would like to give the real name of that

17     person, we could go into private session, Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             There is no need, Mr. President.  Perhaps he can just look at the

20     transcript page of the 28th of April, 2011.  This is page 13445.  And the

21     question and the answer of that witness, page 13445, lines 6 to 12.  The

22     question is:

23             "Based on all the information available to you, do you know

24     whether there was a total of 400 to 500 people from Kravica buried there

25     and 50 from Konjevic Polje?"

Page 14685

 1             And he replied, this is PW-064, his answer:

 2             "I said that in my estimate, between 400 and 500 persons were

 3     buried while I was there.  If there were 50 there from Konjevic Polje

 4     from the school, that would mean that there were between 400 and 450 from

 5     Kravica."

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is that the witness you are thinking of, and his testimony, and

 8     is that what you referred to just now in your answer?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Yes, exactly.

10        Q.   And have you just seen that the witness is not talking about 20,

11     but a higher number of bodies that were brought and buried together with

12     those who died in Kravica?  Thank you.

13        A.   If I remember correctly, this witness was not quite sure how many

14     victims, exactly, was picked up on the road, but what he was sure, that

15     there was one truck of victims brought back to Kravica, and they were

16     picked up along the road, also in Konjevic Polje, and brought back to

17     Glogova and buried there.  When I was talking about that I'm not certain

18     about how many of those, 30 to 50, if he put it that number, was

19     casualties of combat, I was thinking particularly on those who were

20     picked up along the road.  Because I think that also this witness was

21     quite clear that the victims found in Konjevic Polje, they were killed

22     there.  So we cannot talk about those being killed in combat, so my

23     concern was just about those who were picked up along the road.  So not

24     the whole truck which was -- which brought the victims back to Glogova

25     grave were victims of combat, if any at all.

Page 14686

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think now it's time for our first

 2     break.

 3             We adjourn, and we'll resume quarter past 4.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we please show D166 in e-court.  This is the testimony of

 9     Jean-Rene Ruez in the Krstic case, dated the 14th of March, 2000,

10     page 595, which says that in the Bare village sector, as we can see in

11     the first line, the Finnish pathologist team found five bodies.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   My question is this:  The number which Mr. Ruez mentions is

14     smaller for 80 than the one you mentioned in your report as the number of

15     those 688, so the number is smaller for 80.  My question is this:  Did

16     these persons whose mortal remains were found in the Bare village

17     identified by DNA analysis?  Thank you.

18        A.   I'll just correct the transcript, because you asked about 600

19     bodies, and in the transcript we see five bodies.  Then we discussed this

20     same issue already before, but if you want, I can clarify once more.

21             The Bare area is the area behind Kravica warehouse.  It is part

22     of the area which, in my report, is referred as Pobudje area in surface

23     remains section of my report.  And in that area, so far 558 individuals

24     have been identified.  The number you referred to as 688 is the total

25     number of surface remains, but as I discussed in my report, I emphasised

Page 14687

 1     that I categorised surface remains in three different areas.  Actually

 2     four, sorry.  And in Pobudje area, there is, so far, 558 individuals

 3     identified as being found on the surface, and, yes, they were all

 4     identified through DNA.  And when Mr. Ruez was referring here to 600

 5     bodies, and the Finnish team, actually, I still don't -- I'm still not

 6     sure when did he get this number, from which report or from which source.

 7     But I was able to review this Finnish report, and inside that report we

 8     have a number of 30, so 3-0, bodies which were collected by their team in

 9     1996.  In addition to that, they have examined, according to their

10     report, 250 to 300 victims or bodies which were collected by the BiH

11     authorities at that time from this same area.  So in total, what they

12     examined at that time, according to their report, would be around 300

13     victims or bodies.  So this would be the correct number which I can find

14     from the documents, from the reports, so I'm not quite sure when Mr. Ruez

15     found the number of 600 bodies.

16        Q.   Thank you.  After this, I'm not sure at all what is in your

17     report and what in Mr. Ruez's report.  Can you please tell us, in one

18     sentence, whether these 600 bodies were found, and if not, how many of

19     the bodies examined by the Finnish team were found?  Can you please tell

20     us the exact number?  Thank you.

21        A.   Okay.  By Finnish team, 30 bodies have been picked up, collected,

22     from the ground in 1996.  In addition, that same year around 250 bodies

23     have been collected by the BH.  So we have 300 bodies, or body parts, or

24     whatever, so 300.  Throughout the years, so it means from 1996 up until

25     the end of 2009, additional surface remains were collected from this

Page 14688

 1     area, and that's why, in my report, the total number is 558 so far

 2     identified.  So it means the bodies which were collected from this area,

 3     from 1996 up until the end of 2009.  When the Finnish team was there in

 4     1996, only about 300 bodies were collected at that time.  So in addition

 5     now we have double number, so because I already emphasised several times

 6     that this number is growing over the years.  So I hope I made myself much

 7     clearer now.

 8        Q.   Mr. Janc, this reviewing of information which Mr. Ruez presented,

 9     was it reviewed information which he presented when he said that 600

10     bodies had been found?  Thank you.

11        A.   I won't say it's a revision of his number, but I would say that

12     the number we have right now, it's much more accurate because we have the

13     actual names.  So when Mr. Ruez testified back in -- I don't see here

14     when it was, but somewhere around 2002, 2003, I --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In fact, in the year 2000, as Mr. Tolimir

16     indicated at the beginning with this document, the 14th of March, 2000.

17             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Back then, you know, he was not having the

18     exact information for sure how many bodies have been collected from the

19     ground.  I assume this was just an estimate.  Why?  Because the actual

20     DNA identification of these individuals started in November of 2001, and

21     my report includes the individuals which were identified by the DNA, so

22     which was done later, after 2000, when he testified.  And I think that he

23     referred here to 600 bodies as an estimate, as a rough number of how many

24     bodies have been collected up until that time, and we know that up until

25     that time, many bodies have been collected from this area.

Page 14689

 1             We can perhaps take a look into the spreadsheet which was

 2     provided to us by the BiH Commission on Missing Persons, and which is

 3     having an ERN number and is listed in my report as 0 -- X0189696, and

 4     we'll see the actual table how many bodies have been collected every

 5     year, or I would say pieces of bodies.  So we can calculate, based on

 6     that number, how many bodies have been collected up until 2000.

 7        Q.   Mr. Janc, can you please look at what is in front of you now and

 8     what Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez stated as a witness.  He said at the time that:

 9             "This area has been processed in 1996 by a team of experts from

10     Finland who were operating in that area in 1996, totally disconnected

11     from our activities, they were collecting surface remains.  But it's

12     important to note that 600 bodies have been collected in that area."

13             So he says precisely that, and he said that this has been

14     processed:

15             "These are bodies of victims killed in combat, in ambushes, in

16     shelling, and possibly also in other circumstances which are impossible

17     to sort out between ..."

18             And then there's a dash, something not clear.

19             "... I mean, for us, at least, between combat and other

20     situations."

21             My question to you is the following:  Where were you in 1996, and

22     were you working for the OTP when Jean-Rene Ruez worked as an

23     investigator for this Tribunal and this Prosecutor's Office in the field?

24     Thank you.

25        A.   Back then in 1996, I was not employed here, but I worked for the

Page 14690

 1     police in Republic of Slovenia.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  On the basis of what are you then denying and saying

 3     that these are estimates which Mr. Ruez mentioned, and he says that these

 4     have been processed?  Have you read Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez's reports on these

 5     activities and the way how these 600 victims who were found at the time

 6     in 1996 were processed?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             I've been looking rather carefully at the transcript that

10     General Tolimir has put to the witness, but I do not see in the

11     transcript that Mr. Ruez has said that the 600 bodies he refers to were

12     recovered in 1996.  He's testifying in 2000, and he says:

13             "It's important to note that 600 bodies have been collected in

14     that area."

15             But it is not clear, from this passage, at least, that these

16     bodies were recovered in 1996 or between 1996 and 2000, which is when he

17     was testifying.  So if General Tolimir has some other information to

18     clarify that issue, I think it would be appropriate before he puts the

19     question to the witness.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you have a reason to

21     rephrase your question.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in line 8 in both

23     the English and the Serbian versions, there is a sentence which says:

24             "This area has been processed in 1996 by a team of experts from

25     Finland ..."

Page 14691

 1             And in line 12 in both English and Serbian, it says:

 2             "But it's important to note that 600 bodies have been collected

 3     in that area."

 4             So he's talking about the year 1996.  I'm asking Mr. Janc where

 5     he was in 1996.  I don't know why this is inappropriate.  He answered

 6     that he was not working for the Tribunal at that time.  I'm just quoting

 7     what Mr. Ruez testified as a witness.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the objection of Mr. Vanderpuye was

 9     not in relation to the occupation of Mr. Janc in 1996, but the way you

10     put this information from Mr. Ruez' testimony in 2000 to the witness.

11     And now you read out a part of it, but you left out a certain portion.

12     And for a better understanding for that, you should read that.  And I

13     quote:

14             "This area has been processed in 1996 by a team of experts from

15     Finland who were operating in that area in 1996, totally disconnected

16     from our activities, they were collecting surface remains.  But it's

17     important to note that 600 bodies have been collected in that area."

18             Whatever that means, but I think there's no need to discuss that

19     any further.

20             Put your question in a slightly different way and take into

21     account this specific formulation of Mr. Ruez.

22             Go ahead, please.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Janc, did I quote to you from beginning to end what is noted

25     here and what Mr. Ruez wrote, and did you have an occasion, as an

Page 14692

 1     investigator, to read any notes about what he left to OTP when he left

 2     the OTP and concerning this event?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Yes, I read this portion of his statement carefully several

 4     times, also now, and for me it's not clear, like it was emphasised by

 5     Mr. Vanderpuye.  I'm not certain what he was actually having in mind.  We

 6     would need to ask Mr. Ruez again if he was referring here to 1996 or to

 7     all bodies collected from 1996 up until the moment he testified.

 8             And also, yes, I was trying to locate any kind of report,

 9     information, internal memo, whatever would be on this 600 bodies from

10     Mr. Ruez, so -- and I couldn't locate any of such official note, memo, or

11     document.  What I was able to find, though, was this report from a

12     Finnish team, which I discussed a little bit earlier.

13        Q.   Mr. Janc, does Mr. Ruez limit the 600 bodies to the location of

14     Bare in his testimony?  Can this be seen from the first two sentences

15     which I quoted and which Presiding Judge Fluegge also quoted, or does

16     this relate to the entire area, as you say?

17        A.   Yes, I agree that he's referring to the Bare region, so again we

18     would need a closer look into what he meant by "Bare," because I think

19     you can -- it's not easy to find this place on a map.  But I was able to

20     locate it somehow, and I think it is behind the Kravica warehouse in this

21     Kamenica area which is part of the Pobudje area, where we have the

22     biggest number of surface remains collected.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Let us have a look at what another OTP

24     investigator had to say about the very same event.  This is the

25     transcript of the 22nd of February, 2011, from this case, and the witness

Page 14693

 1     was Dean Manning.  Let us look at page 10218, lines from 12 to 16.

 2             And before that, please tell us whether you know who Dean Manning

 3     was and what he used to do, in terms of work, for the OTP.  Thank you.

 4        A.   Yes, I can repeat once more, because I explained during my

 5     testimony before that Dean Manning was investigator within the OTP, and

 6     he has been dealing also with the exhumations of the victims related to

 7     Srebrenica events.  And he, for different trials, drafted -- prepared

 8     several reports in relation to these exhumations.  And also he testified

 9     in several -- on several occasions in different trials, also for this

10     trial.  And he left the Tribunal, I think, in 2004.  And then in 2006,

11     when I joined the Tribunal, I took over the -- these activities.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Is it credible, what an investigator who was working

13     directly in the field says?  Does it have its measure of reliability and

14     weight?  Can you say that, as an investigator, or should more weight be

15     given to what is expressed on the basis of documents?

16        A.   In different circumstances, different facts will be important, so

17     it depends what you are asking.  I can't give you a specific answer,

18     because for some facts it's more important what can be obtained/seen on

19     the field.  For some other facts, it's more important what we can find

20     later on from the expertise which are done.  So it's not an answer, one

21     way or another, to say, This is the right way.  So both those segments

22     are really important, so -- but it depends what kind of question you

23     would like to put to someone.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Thank you, Mr. Janc.  I have no time for

25     discussion.

Page 14694

 1             Please look at the page 10218, about what Mr. Manning said and

 2     how he answered to my question concerning the victims from Bare.  This is

 3     what he says:

 4             "A.  I was aware that surface remains were being collected.  From

 5     my memory, I didn't realise it was the Finns.  I was not involved in that

 6     process.  It was two years before I started.  I was generally aware of

 7     it, but it was not part of my investigation."

 8             On page 10219, lines 19 to 25, and 10 --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the accused please slow down when quoting

10     numbers.  Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   ... Mr. Manning --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it was a problem for the

14     interpreters to catch the numbers.  "Page 10219, lines 19 to 25, and --,"

15     and then it stopped.  Please repeat the number.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So after that came page 10220,

17     lines 1 to 25, and 10221, lines 1 to 10.  The question was:

18             "Mr. Manning, do you know where the surface remains were buried,

19     in which grave?"

20             His answer is:

21             "Considering that I was not involved in the process, I can say

22     that the surface remains collected were stored for --"

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you.  You gave three references,

24     and you should indicate from which of these three you are reading now.

25             Mr. Gajic.

Page 14695

 1             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the first reference

 2     which is just being read out is 10219, lines 19 to 25.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

 4     you, Aleksandar.  I think that this was visible in the text.  It is

 5     marked with the yellow colour, line 19.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   "The surface remains collected were stored for many years in

 9     Tuzla in salt mines, in the tunnels that previously were used as salt

10     mines.  I saw many of those body-bags and collections of bodies.  They

11     were not reburied in that process.  They were examined and eventually

12     returned to the families, those that could be, and then buried in

13     individual graves, I assume.  To my knowledge, the bodies collected as

14     surface remains were stored in Tuzla by the Bosnian Commission for

15     Missing Persons."

16             My question is this:  Considering that the bodies from the

17     location that Mr. Ruez is talking about, the 600 bodies, were transported

18     to Tuzla, and that they were identified and then handed over to the

19     families, can you tell us whether there is a list of these identified

20     bodies and whether there is information about who the bodies were handed

21     over to, as Mr. Manning says?  Thank you.  Are you aware of that?  Have

22     you seen such documents?  Thank you.

23        A.   I would say that part of those 600 bodies are included in my

24     report which are found on a surface in Pobudje area, and I'm sure some of

25     those bodies, if not most of them, are the bodies we are talking about

Page 14696

 1     right now.  In order to get information on this issue, when and how and

 2     to whom those bodies were returned back, we would need the documents

 3     which is kept by the BiH judicial authorities, so, namely, exhumation

 4     records, autopsy records, authentication records.  For some of them, we

 5     have documentation here in-house for some of the surface remains, but for

 6     most of them, we don't have.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  If the bodies, at the time that Mr. Manning

 8     was working before your time, were in the salt mine, and he said he saw

 9     them there and were buried in a mass grave, rather than individual

10     graves, instead of being returned to the families, were you able to find

11     them later, at later stages, in Pobudje, as you said here and as you

12     mention in your report?  Thank you.

13        A.   No, those bodies which were collected from the ground from 1996

14     onwards, they were transported to Tuzla, to the morgue there.  And once

15     identified, they were returned back to the families, and families buried

16     them in different places, I assume most of them in the Potocari Memorial

17     Centre.  So they were not reburied or placed into these mass graves,

18     because we know from evidence we collected, from aerial images, that when

19     those mass graves were created, then the secondary graves, they were

20     created, and all these facts.  And some of the exhumations of these mass

21     graves were already underway in 1996 by the ICTY.

22        Q.   Thank you, thank you for this answer.  Could you tell me this,

23     please:  Those bodies from the salt mine, did you include them again in

24     the reports on Bare that were presented to us here?  Thank you.

25        A.   I don't think I understand what you actually are asking me.  But

Page 14697

 1     what is in my report under surface remains section is based on data on

 2     surface remains which was provided to us by the BiH Commission on Missing

 3     Persons.  This data included all the exhumations of surface remains

 4     conducted throughout the years, their code-names, when those exhumations

 5     took place, where, in which area and which place exactly.  And when I

 6     compared these data against the ICMP data, the identification list of the

 7     victims, I found the individuals which were identified, and I could

 8     attribute these individuals to the -- to these surface remains.  So it

 9     means individuals found on a surface in this Bare area were transported

10     to Tuzla, where they were examined, and then they were later identified

11     through DNA by the ICMP.  And when that was done, they were returned back

12     to the families, and families buried those bodies.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you then write down in your report as if they

14     were found in Bare in 1996?  You stated this in your answers here.  I

15     wrote down what your testimony was here, but I don't want to lose time on

16     that right now.  You said that the bodies were searched for from 1996 to

17     1999 and that this came to a total of 558.  Then you said that 13 bodies

18     were identified by the Finnish team, that 250 bodies were found by

19     Bosnian organs, and that from 1996 on, a total of 558 bodies were

20     identified.  Does that mean that these 600 bodies were not found and

21     gathered immediately, the bodies that are referred to by Mr. Ruez and by

22     Mr. Manning in their reports?  Thank you.

23        A.   These 558 bodies which are found -- or which are referred in my

24     report as found in Pobudje area are found in the area which spread from

25     the Bratunac up to Konjevic Polje, this hilly area along this road, and

Page 14698

 1     part of this area -- bigger area is also Bare, as I understand it, and

 2     most of them were found around there.  And how I referred to these bodies

 3     is not actually "Bare," but I referred to them, as to location, as they

 4     were indicated by the BiH Commission on Missing Persons.  If you go into

 5     my report, section -- Annex B, section on surface remains, which ends

 6     with ERN 6015, you would see Pobudje area in my table, and left you would

 7     have the names of the locations where those surface remains were found.

 8     So you won't find "Bare" here, because I assume that Bare also covers

 9     larger area, which would, in this case, be Kamenica, like Kamenicko Brdo,

10     Krajinovici, where most of these individuals are found.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Janc.

12             Can we now look at Exhibit P170, page 61 in the Serbian and

13     page 44 in English.  This is Mr. Janc's report from 2010.  Page 61 in the

14     Serbian and page 44 in the English.  Thank you.

15             Let's take a look at this.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   In the 10th line from the top, you mentioned Pobudje, the Finnish

18     team, and you say:  "P.M.," and then you say:  "DNA identification, 20

19     individuals."  My question is this:  Does that mean that the Finnish team

20     identified only 20 individuals?  A little bit earlier, you said 13.

21        A.   Earlier, I said that from this Finnish team report, it's coming

22     out that 30 bodies were collected.  And, yes, so far 20 of those bodies

23     or of those surface remains which were collected have been identified.

24     So it's difficult, I would say, sometimes, especially from surface

25     remains, and when the bones are scattered around the area, to assess

Page 14699

 1     exactly how many individuals you would collect.  Sometimes it's less,

 2     sometimes it's more.  In this case, I don't claim that only 20

 3     individuals have been collected, but what we can see here is that only 20

 4     individuals, out of those 30 cases which have been collected, have been

 5     identified so far.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  The bodies from the salt mine that Mr. Ruez

 7     referred to, as well as Mr. Manning, that they saw them in body-bags,

 8     were they all strewn about, as you say, or did they actually have

 9     concrete bodies there which they identified and then handed back to their

10     families so that they could bury them in specific places, plots?  Thank

11     you.

12        A.   Okay, I don't think I understand your question.  If you are

13     referring to the bodies which were collected, as I explained and

14     emphasised several times already, it's difficult with surface remains

15     always.  And, yes, these are bones mostly which are collected from the

16     ground.  They might be in one piece, representing one individual, but for

17     most of the times, only a few pieces or several pieces of one individual

18     have been collected at one point in time.  And later on, and especially

19     now when we have DNA examination conducted by the ICMP, it was only

20     possible to re-assemble one individual into one piece, and it may elapse

21     several years until one individual is identified or assembled together

22     into one piece again.  So that's why this process might be very, very

23     long.  It might take several years, especially with those surface

24     remains.  And in some cases, it might also be that not all the pieces

25     were put together of one individual and were already returned back to the

Page 14700

 1     families.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  I would kindly ask you to respond directly

 3     to my questions.  I was asking about bodies that were in the salt mine.

 4     Could they have been strewn about the whole territory and identified in

 5     the manner that you described?  So can you tell us clearly whether they

 6     were or they were not?  When they were taken to Tuzla, were they strewn

 7     about again?  Please respond to this question:  Were the bodies from

 8     Tuzla again strewn all over the area?  Thank you.

 9        A.   The bodies which were collected from the -- from the ground were

10     taken to this salt mine, and there, therefore, they were assembled

11     together and returned back to the families when they were identified.

12     I think that I answered the question, so if not, please, yeah, you can

13     put me another sub-question.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In your report, can you show us where you recorded

15     those bodies that were in the Tuzla salt mine?  Thank you.

16        A.   What is part of my report is, for example, the table which we can

17     see in front of us, and these represent how many individuals have been

18     identified so far from certain place, certain area, or from the surface

19     remains which were found in this area.  Also, the underlying data --

20        Q.   Please, if you can, can you be specific?  Because of the time

21     that I have, can you be specific about the bodies from the Tuzla salt

22     mine, where they are in your report; nothing more than that.  Thank you.

23     I apologise.

24        A.   Yeah, I can be concrete, but I need to explain a little bit more,

25     because from my report you won't find this information, because all those

Page 14701

 1     bodies which were identified, or surface remains, were transported to

 2     this -- to this place, to Tuzla, and from there they were returned back

 3     to the families.  And more than that, I can't tell you.  How many bodies

 4     have been collected, or pieces of those bodies, is not part of my report,

 5     but -- itself.  You can't find it in a table, but in underlying data

 6     which I'm referring to in my report.  So the page before this one, you

 7     will see what kind of information we received from the BiH Commission on

 8     Missing Persons, and there you will find how many body parts have been

 9     collected from certain areas.  And from what Mr. Ruez and Mr. Manning

10     testified, they were taken from the location, from the place where they

11     were collected, to Tuzla.  So that's all I can testify about.  That's all

12     I know about these places, about this issue.

13        Q.   Mr. Janc, did you see the report on the identification of the

14     bodies?  Did you see a list of persons whose bodies were handed back to

15     their families or any kind of list or record of the bodies that were

16     referred to by Mr. Ruez and Mr. Manning?  Thank you.

17        A.   I would say that for most of them, and not only surface

18     remains - I'm also referring here to the victims found in graves - I

19     haven't seen those hand-over documents.  What I was referring to and I

20     was able to see were the ICMP data on identifications.  For some of them,

21     yes, we received documents from the BiH authorities, and I was able to

22     review them, and especially for those individuals and those mass graves

23     which were exhumed by the ICTY, I was able to review all these documents.

24     But in relation to what you asked me, if I was able to review all the

25     hand-over documents, I mean the hand-over of the bodies back to the

Page 14702

 1     relatives, no, I wasn't, because what I am presenting in my report are

 2     actually the identified individuals so far, and it is not necessarily

 3     that all of them have been already returned back to the families.  So no

 4     such record exists at all, so we are a kind of in an advanced stage with

 5     my report, because what I derived from the ICMP data are those who are

 6     already identified, so -- but it doesn't mean that they were already

 7     returned back to the families.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Can you please answer briefly, without

 9     going into detail, because I really cannot understand it, to tell you

10     sincerely.  Can you please speak very succinctly so that I can understand

11     you.

12             Under whose care -- in whose care were the bodies in the Tuzla

13     salt mine?  Thank you.

14        A.   I believe it was under the -- under the authorities of the BiH

15     Federal Commission on Missing Persons, and there was also

16     Podrinje Identification Project going on.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  And are you able to tell us now whether

18     there is a report in the OTP by the Finnish experts, and have you read

19     that report?

20        A.   Yes, there is such report, and I've read it.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And did you use any information from that report and

22     put it in your own report about the victims found in the Tuzla salt mine?

23     Thank you.

24        A.   Not directly from that report, but from this page we have on the

25     screen right now, indirectly, yes, I put the information regarding the

Page 14703

 1     Finnish team activities into my report.  So far, 20 individuals

 2     identified.

 3        Q.   Are you able to provide the report to the Defence and to the

 4     Trial Chamber so that we can also see what the Finnish pathologists said,

 5     or is this a secret that the OTP is keeping?  Thank you.

 6        A.   No, it's not a secret at all, and I'm sure that this report has

 7     been disclosed to Defence in this case.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             I was just checking to see that, in fact, that is the case.  The

11     report was disclosed, and I'll give you a date in just a moment.  It's

12     the 7th of March, 2008, it was disclosed to the Defence.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  We are

14     going to check that.  We don't have any more time.

15             I would now like to ask e-court to show 1D777, please.  This is

16     an official note about an informative talk by the Tuzla SDB Sector.  We

17     can see it on our screen.  Since there is no translation, I'm going to

18     read in the heading:

19             "It says, "The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of

20     Internal Affairs, State Security Service, SDB Sector Tuzla."  And then

21     there is some lines of work, numbers.  In the title, it says "Official

22     Note on Informative Talk," and then it talks about source, "Enver Avdic,

23     son of Sado and Hamdija Halilovic, born July 7, 1997, in Gladovici,

24     municipality of Srebrenica," where he resided.  He's a farmer, completed

25     eight-year elementary school, Muslim citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 14704

 1     At the time of the interview, he was a refugee accommodated in

 2     Donja Dobosnica Polje [phoen].

 3             So can we look at the last paragraph of this report or this note.

 4     Can we scroll up a little bit, please.  Thank you.

 5             And you can see -- I asked for the last paragraph on this first

 6     page.

 7             We can see it now, thank you.  You can see that there is an

 8     underlined part where it says "1.000 soldiers."  We will be reading that

 9     paragraph.  I don't see it on the screen right now.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's on the screen in the middle of the

11     second paragraph.  It's indicated now by the cursor.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I pressed the wrong

13     button, and that's why I lost it on my screen.  But I see it now.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   "In the course of the interview, Enver told us that during the

16     breakthrough of the 285th and the 282nd Brigade sometime at 1000 hours of

17     that same day, a Chetnik para-formation opened strong artillery fire at

18     the remaining brigades and the civilian population that happened to be in

19     Buljim, where, in his estimate, 1.000 soldiers and civilians were

20     killed."

21             And then it goes on to talk about the shelling and so on and so

22     forth.

23             Could you please tell us if you read this note about this

24     interview and read the fact or the data about 1.000 soldiers and

25     civilians who were killed in this attack at Buljim that the witness is

Page 14705

 1     talking about?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I'm not sure if I read this particular statement.  It's possible

 3     I did.  But I am sure that I read similar statements where people

 4     estimated, and I emphasise here "estimated," how many people might be

 5     killed at certain places.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Based on the statements that you read, did you note

 7     down at least one or two persons, if not a thousand, on the basis of what

 8     you read?  Thank you.  Did you identify any of those persons as those

 9     found on the surface?

10        A.   Based just on the number, what we see here, you can't say who are

11     the victims, so you would need much more information.  And in some

12     statements, you could see, for example, that the individuals were

13     referring to their friends, brothers, fathers, and by names.  In that

14     case, I was able to check against the ICMP data if those names appear on

15     the lists, and in many instances I was able to identify such individuals

16     as being found on a surface, some of them even in graves later.  But from

17     this number, just based on the number, you can't say anything.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Please answer my question, and my question is:  On

19     the basis of the statement by eye-witnesses in relation to the location

20     where the people were killed or are in surface graves, did you manage to

21     identify or record any of them in the report that you provided for the

22     OTP?

23        A.   Are you referring to this particular statement or any other

24     statement in general?

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  You told us that you read several

Page 14706

 1     statements, and I'm asking you whether you managed to record at least one

 2     person as a surface remains victim in your report.

 3        A.   Yes, I'm sure I came across these names and I was able to link

 4     them with the surface remains.  And, no, those information won't be find

 5     [sic] in my report directly.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Since I don't have much more time, let us

 7     move to page 2 in e-court, the first paragraph, lines 1 to 3 of the very

 8     same statement.  So could you please just turn the page.

 9             This is what is written here, I quote:

10             "Further on, the source told us that while they were going

11     through Cerska, he noticed hundreds of dead people on both sides of the

12     road whose bodies were mutilated, and he couldn't recognise as anyone."

13             Can one find anywhere in the report any data about these surface

14     victims that were on both sides of the road heading to Cerska?

15        A.   Because this is general information about where those surface

16     remains might be located, it's possible that they are part of my report.

17     But because we know that in Cerska, we have a mass grave, and that people

18     were executed there and later on buried, so it's possible that this

19     individual came across these bodies.

20        Q.   Yes, I understand, but I'm asking you whether one can find, in

21     your report on surface remains, any record of the hundred mentioned here

22     and the thousand mentioned on the previous page.  Can one find that in

23     writing in your report, and if so, can you tell us on which page?

24        A.   No, and the problem is that I can't link these individuals which

25     are here just in number to any of the identified individuals which are in

Page 14707

 1     my report.  That's the basic reason.  I can't -- I can't link these 100

 2     killed individuals to any specific grave or surface remains which are in

 3     my report.  I would need much more information.  I would need names,

 4     actually.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.

 6             Let us now look at 1D778.  Let's have that document on the

 7     screen.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what about the last document, 1D777?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender it.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

12     translation.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D777 shall be

14     assigned Exhibit D268, marked for identification, pending translation.

15     Thank you.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   We can now see 1D778.  It's an exhibit.  In the heading, it says

18     "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of Interior, State Security

19     Service, Sector Tuzla."  This is an official note on an interview

20     conducted with Alic, Hasan.

21             Since we have little time, I would like to ask the e-court to

22     show us only the second page of the document, line 8 on this second page

23     in the first paragraph, or, rather, 9 to 4 [as interpreted].  Let me

24     quote:

25             "In the immediate vicinity, there is again a line-up of brigades.

Page 14708

 1     In the immediate vicinity of these people lined up, the Chetniks had a

 2     tree cut and put across the road, and when the column moved, they started

 3     firing, using all available weapons.  And the Chetniks then made an

 4     incursion into the column with the purpose of breaking it up."

 5             The source tells us that about a thousand soldiers and civilians

 6     from the column were killed, so this second source confirms the claims by

 7     the first source.

 8             Did you have the opportunity to read this statement by the second

 9     source and to obtain this additional information about the surface

10     victims; yes or no?  The name is Alic, Hasan, and he's from Srebrenica.

11        A.   It's possible I did.  I cannot recall it from the top of my head.

12     And, again, this number is this individual's estimate, yes.

13        Q.   Mr. Janc, have you noticed that two persons from different

14     villages, who were at the same location, are talking about the same

15     number of victims and are describing events in the same manner; yes or

16     no?  Thank you.

17        A.   Yes, I agree that we can see from both of those statements that

18     they are referring or they are giving a number of a thousand, but I would

19     like to emphasise that this is estimate, and we would need to be very

20     careful about assessing -- when assessing this -- the reliability of this

21     number, because it's difficult to assess, even for trained individuals,

22     how many people would be gathered somewhere or killed somewhere,

23     especially under circumstances which experienced these individuals, so

24     when they were under stress and everything.  I would say, as police

25     officer, and I know my colleagues are trained in estimating, for example,

Page 14709

 1     how many people gathered at certain place, that even for them it's very

 2     difficult to catch the exact number.  So if you are a layperson, I think

 3     it's really, really difficult, so I wouldn't put much reliability on the

 4     number.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Janc.

 6             I would like to tender this document as well.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we please see the first page again.

 8             I note that it is not included in your list of exhibits to be

 9     used with the witness, at least not in the last version, if the number is

10     1D778, as I noted it down.  What is the date of this document?  I don't

11     see any date on the first line.  The date is missing.

12             Mr. Janc, have you ever seen this document before?

13             THE WITNESS:  As I testified, it's possible I've seen it, so I

14     cannot confirm it for the fact.  But it's possible that I reviewed it,

15     but I don't have any better recollection than that.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please see the last page.

17             THE WITNESS:  We can see from this document that it is 11 of

18     October, 1995, the day when it is taken.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I believe that's correct.  I believe that the

21     statement is taken on that date, although I don't see when it's actually

22     written down, when the statement is actually written down.  But I believe

23     that's correct, in any event.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, we can see from this line here [indicates] it

25     says that the statement was taken on 11 of October, 1995.

Page 14710

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On page 1, the fifth paragraph.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I didn't see any signature on this document.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, do you have additional information about it?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this document was

 6     handed over to the OTP by the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, their

 7     Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and of -- Interior Affairs, and their State

 8     Security Service.  They do not put in names on such documents; they just

 9     give some information about the so-called line of work.  This will be

10     explained when their witnesses come here.

11             I don't know whether the Prosecutor's Office has the names of

12     people who were taking the statement, but these persons are duty-bound to

13     work as professionals, and provide truthful reports, and to be ready to

14     testify before a court, so ...

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             With this additional information, we have enough information, and

18     it will be marked for identification, pending translation.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 1D778 shall be

20     assigned Exhibit D269, marked for identification, pending translation.

21     And just for the clarity of the record, it was 65 ter document 1D778.

22     Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Can we please have Exhibit 1D780 on our screens.  Thank you.

Page 14711

 1             While we're waiting for it, let me just say for the transcript

 2     that this is a document produced by Bosnia and Herzegovina's Agency for

 3     Research and Documentation, AID Sector in Tuzla, which is just

 4     abbreviation for Agency for Research and Documentation.  The document is

 5     dated 1st of February, 1996.  These are minutes of a statement given by

 6     Suljo Halilovic, son of Muharem, born on the 1st of February, 1960,

 7     Bajramovic [phoen], municipality of Srebrenica.

 8             In the second paragraph we can see the following:

 9             "In the vicinity of Kamenica, before one crosses the asphalt

10     roads, Konjevic Polje-Kasaba, nearby Kaldrmica, fire was opened against

11     the column from Pragas, artillery weapons and infantry weapons from all

12     sides.  Chetniks were very close to us, and I concluded that we were

13     surrounded.  We managed to organise and start resisting, making a narrow

14     passage through their lines.  Most of the people managed to get through

15     this passage.  According to my estimates, about a thousand people got

16     killed in the Chetnik assault, and there were hundreds of wounded.  Since

17     it was already night, I could not see or recognise any one of the people

18     who had been killed."

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   And this is my question:  Can one see, from this statement made

21     by Suljo Halilovic, that they fought their way out of the encirclement

22     and, according to his words, during the fighting about a thousand people

23     got killed?  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes, again, that's what he stated and what we can see from this

25     statement.  But the number is, again, the problem factor here, because we

Page 14712

 1     have to be very careful, especially when he added, one sentence later,

 2     that it was already dark.  So it was a real estimate of something which,

 3     according to this, he wasn't that sure about because it was dark and he

 4     couldn't see precisely.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Could you please tell us whether you

 6     interviewed Suljo Halilovic, and is this your assessment of his

 7     assessment or are you presenting this as something that you know?

 8        A.   Me, personally, haven't spoken to this individual.  Perhaps there

 9     are some other investigators.  So regarding the number -- the assessment

10     of the number, I think I made myself clear before that it's not easy to

11     assess for a layperson.  It's not easy to determine how clear -- how

12     close, actually, to the real number he was when providing "1.000."

13        Q.   Mr. Janc, because we've seen in statements of three persons that

14     a thousand people got killed at that location, wouldn't you say that

15     investigators should have talked to these people, the eye-witnesses,

16     because they may have known some of the victims?  There may have been

17     people who were identified, certainly people who set off with them, maybe

18     some of their relatives.  We can see that some fathers lost their sons,

19     and the other way around, on that location.  Thank you.

20        A.   I am sure that some of those people were approached and

21     interviewed by the ICTY investigators as well, but not all of them, and I

22     don't know right now who of those have been interviewed and who of those

23     haven't been.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Tolimir, please.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone, please.

Page 14713

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the

 2     statement made by this third eye-witness, which includes his estimate of

 3     the number of dead people.  This document is number 780.

 4             And I would like to ask for another document to be put on the

 5     screen, the fourth statement, which will confirm the previous ones.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document on the screen will be marked for

 7     identification, pending translation.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D708 [sic] shall

 9     be assigned Exhibit D270, marked for identification, pending translation.

10     And just one correction:  65 ter document 1D780.  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we please have 1D782 on our screens.  Thank you.

13             Again, a statement given to the Bosnia and Herzegovina organs, in

14     this case Agency for Research and Documentation, Tuzla AID Sector.  The

15     statement was taken from Sado Ramic, son of Adem and Dila Malkic, born on

16     the 5th of March, 1966, in Poznanovici, municipality of Srebrenica.

17             Can we please scroll down, because I need the third paragraph of

18     this statement.

19             In the third paragraph of the statement, which is the paragraph

20     just above the signature, six lines above the signature we can read the

21     following:

22             "The shooting lasted for about 15 minutes, after which all the

23     sounds disappeared.  According to my assessment, about a thousand people

24     were killed there.  We went back to get the wounded people out of there,

25     but it was very hard even to move around because of the bodies.  I could

Page 14714

 1     not recognise anyone."

 2             And we can see in the previous paragraph that it's stated:

 3             "On the following day, on the 12th of July, 1995, on the road

 4     between Buljim and Pobudje, several shells hit our column, and about 50

 5     people got killed on that occasion."

 6             So this statement is discussing 1.050 people killed.

 7             And on the following page, lines 3 to 7, there's mention of

 8     another 20 casualties.

 9             Can we please scroll down on page 2, please.  Further, because

10     there is a part that I would like to quote.  Thank you, yes, now we can

11     see the paragraph that is second on the screen at the moment, and I

12     quote:

13             "When we came to Kasaba, when we came to the repeater, we had to

14     wait for the dark before we could cross the tarmac road, and we crossed

15     it in early-evening hours.  After crossing the asphalt road, we reached

16     Udrc and then continued towards the following mountains, the first of

17     them being Veljova Glava.  There, we found the group of 10 dead bodies,

18     and not far away from that location there was another group of 10 dead

19     bodies, which again were people I did not know."

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Janc, did you have an opportunity to read this statement,

22     where 1.070 bodies are discussed and also locations where these bodies

23     were found?  Wasn't that something that merited the attention of the

24     investigators; namely, to see where the surface remains caused by

25     fighting were, according to the statement of this witness?  Thank you.

Page 14715

 1        A.   I most probably did see this statement as well, and this

 2     individual is talking about three different places where they came across

 3     or they spotted these bodies on the ground.  First, for the first number,

 4     a thousand, my position would be the same, especially because we can see

 5     from the statement from that part that he also said that it was already

 6     9.00 in the evening.  So it was coming to a dark, if it wasn't dark

 7     already at the time.  So it's very difficult to assess how many people is

 8     there, unless you count them.  For later on, we can see that the numbers

 9     are much lower, 50 and 10 and 20 people, so I would say for those,

10     especially when he says around 10 bodies seen around this location, that

11     he was more precise when assessing how many bodies have been there than

12     with the number a thousand.  Especially now, when we know that in the

13     area of Pobudje where those thousand he was talking about might be seen

14     on the ground, we have today 550 individuals identified.

15             So when he gave this statement, and we have to emphasise in this

16     case this statement was given half a year later after these events took

17     place, he said that thousand people were there, so this is his estimate.

18     And I would say, based on what we know today, that the number was some --

19     much higher than the real number of casualties there or dead bodies

20     there.

21        Q.   Mr. Janc, let me show you page 3 of this report, third paragraph

22     on it.  It is stated there, I quote:

23             "Sometime in November of 1995, together with Abdurahman and

24     another 13 people, I went to Lopare where we were chopping wood for the

25     Serbian East Bosnian Corps.  We stayed in Lopare for 15 days and then we

Page 14716

 1     were returned to the camp.  We stayed in the camp until the 24th of

 2     December, 1995, when 134 of us were exchanged; Sokolac, municipality of

 3     Gracanica."

 4             Since he arrived there on the 24th of December, it took two

 5     months before he was interviewed by the state organs.  He couldn't have

 6     provided a statement earlier because he was a prisoner until then.  The

 7     fact that he was exchanged later, is that something that discredits all

 8     the information contained in his statement, corroborated by statements

 9     made by other three persons, concerning the number of people?

10        A.   No, of course not.  And when I emphasised the date, that it was

11     half a year later, it's just for, perhaps, certain details which might

12     be -- after so many months after the events, might not be clear to the

13     individuals anymore.  But for some facts, he might be still clear very

14     well.  So I didn't mean that all what he said was wrong, no, I didn't

15     mean that.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  We can see that he gave the statement --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we need the second break now.  You

18     may continue after the break.

19             We resume quarter past 6.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please go ahead.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             Can we please have the statement of Ramic, Sado, entered into

25     evidence?  Thank you.

Page 14717

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, but only for identification,

 2     pending translation.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D782 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit D271, marked for identification, pending translation.

 5     Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Janc, we have seen the four statements which mentioned a

 8     bigger number of victims found on surface than 1.000.  Can it be seen

 9     from these statements that those who died in combat were also buried in

10     mass graves, as they are not to be found in other locations which are

11     mentioned nowadays?

12        A.   From these statements, we can't conclude that, because the number

13     thousand I already said that it shouldn't be a reliable one, based on the

14     possibility of these individuals to assess the correct number of the

15     individuals which were found on -- or bodies of which were on the

16     surface.  So -- and we know -- just to respond regarding the mass graves,

17     we know that in these mass graves are victims from the executions, and we

18     have no evidence so far, not a single statement, which would point at the

19     conclusion that the surface remains or the victims which were killed in

20     these woods - I mean combat - would be taken from these areas and buried

21     in mass graves, so they were just left behind on the surface.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Please tell us whether that means that,

23     even now, on the surface, some mortal remains can be found in the

24     locations described in these statements which mention the number of

25     victims which were seen by the eye-witnesses?  Are they still there on

Page 14718

 1     the spot where they were or were they buried in mass graves?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I would say most of them were collected from the ground

 3     throughout the years.  And because we can see that the process is ongoing

 4     and every year they collect additional bodies from the surface, I would

 5     say they will be find [sic] also in the future; of course, not in such

 6     massive numbers as it was during first years after the fall of

 7     Srebrenica; I mean, 1996, 1997, 1998.  At that time, a lot of these

 8     surface remains were found there, but nowadays a few additional bodies

 9     are found every year.  So this number, the total number, will grow, but

10     it will not grow much over 1.000, if at all.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Does that mean that the assessments of

12     investigators are more important than the facts as presented by

13     eye-witnesses and the events, when one is to draw conclusions?  Is it

14     more important, what you may conclude on the basis of some paper

15     documents, that you doubt four statements?  And what is more credible,

16     your opinion or the opinion of eye-witnesses?  Thank you.

17        A.   It's not about the opinion.  It's about the corroboration of the

18     facts.  It is important, what the eye-witness is saying, of course, but

19     sometimes not everything is correct, what they were saying, but not

20     because they would be lying, but just because our memory is such that

21     sometimes we are wrong.  And in these cases, it's better to support

22     certain allegations with independent sources, documents, or in this case,

23     what I'm testifying about, with the expert findings regarding how many

24     individuals have been identified so far.  So a combination of both is

25     important, and one needs to be very careful when assessing the witness

Page 14719

 1     statements.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Can you please be brief in your answers and

 3     provide some context when you're answering a question, because this is

 4     just a general description.  I'm asking you now whether it was necessary

 5     for someone of the investigators to go and interview these four persons

 6     and then make arguments on the basis of which such conclusion of yours

 7     can be drawn, or is it more important that you should state that as your

 8     assessment and your opinion?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Maybe someone approached these witnesses and they were

10     interviewed, but I'm sure that they would never change their statement

11     and their -- the fact about the number.  So it would most probably remain

12     the same.  What I'm testifying here is about how reliable this number is,

13     how close to the real number of what they have seen this number is.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  And is our goal to change the facts and

15     change the number or to accept them as the eye-witnesses present them?

16     Thank you.

17        A.   It's difficult to say, but my position is that this number is

18     not -- is not correct, based on what we know now, so I'm sure they

19     haven't seen that many victims on the ground.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Can you please tell us whether it is

21     possible that there may be persons buried in mass graves who were not

22     members of the 128th Division and the column which was breaking through

23     from Srebrenica in the direction of Nezuk, but that the records also may

24     include persons who died during the attack from Nezuk, in the direction

25     of Baljkovica, with the aim of opening up a corridor?  Thank you.

Page 14720

 1        A.   In those mass graves are the victims who were executed.  They

 2     were taken prisoner and were kept in schools, and then they were

 3     executed.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Did you answer my question?  Is it possible

 5     that the lists of missing persons, or persons who were killed, include

 6     fighters of the 2nd Corps of the BiH Army who were carrying out a

 7     breakthrough from Nezuk, in the direction of Baljkovica, in order to open

 8     up a corridor, as testified by numerous documents, and have you, perhaps,

 9     seen the footage which shows the column coming out to Baljkovica?  It's a

10     column that was moving from Srebrenica towards Nezuk.  Thank you.

11        A.   I'm sure on a missing persons list there are also individuals who

12     at that time were the members of the BiH Army, because if they were

13     killed in a combat, and some of them were most probably also killed

14     during the execution and then put into a mass grave, of course, those

15     people would appear on a missing list.  Those who survived would not

16     appear, would not be reported as missing and would not appear on such

17     list.

18        Q.   Thank you for this explanation, Mr. Janc.

19             Can we now please see Exhibit P170.  This is Mr. Janc's report

20     from 2010.  Can we please have page 63 in B/C/S and page 45 in the

21     English version.  Page 63 in the Serbian and page 45 in the English

22     version.  Thank you.

23             Here we can see the column, "Zepa."  We still don't see it in the

24     Serbian.

25             Here we can see it.  As there is no translation as yet in

Page 14721

 1     English, we can see, above the last table, which says "Zepa," we can see

 2     in English that you stated that in addition, 15 Zepa-related individuals

 3     have been identified so far from surface remains collected in a wider

 4     area of Zepa.  Is that right?

 5        A.   Yes, correct.

 6        Q.   Can you please tell us whether, on any basis, Visegrad can be

 7     considered the wider area of Zepa, and do you know how far Visegrad is

 8     located from Zepa?  Thank you.

 9        A.   I don't know how far, exactly, Visegrad is from Zepa.  I know

10     it's south of it, and that's why I put it in the wider area of Zepa.  And

11     those individuals were, indeed, missing from Zepa, so those seven

12     individuals which we can see related to Visegrad area, that they were

13     missing from Zepa.  And we know that when Zepa fall in July 1995, that

14     people were taking different directions in order to save their lives, and

15     one of those directions was also south, and then that's where these

16     individuals were found.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Janc, do you know that Visegrad belongs to

18     Herzegovina and that Zepa is part of the Podrinje area, geographically

19     speaking, if not in terms of kilometres?  Thank you.

20        A.   No, I'm not aware of this geographical difference, but I agree

21     with you, yes, because it is south.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And were these victims found in Visegrad, whereas you

23     ascribed them to Zepa, on the basis of what; just their place of

24     residence?  Yes or no.  Thank you.

25        A.   No, they were on a missing list, reported missing, as being from

Page 14722

 1     Zepa after the fall of Zepa enclave.  That's why.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And do you have in your documents a report about

 3     them, how they died, where they died?  Do you have the findings of

 4     pathologists or any court bodies about the cause of death of these seven

 5     or eight persons that you are talking about?

 6        A.   Yes, indeed.  For all those 15 individuals, I requested the

 7     documentation from the BiH authorities, and I referred to these documents

 8     which consist of exhumation records, autopsy records, pathology records

 9     and everything.  And I think if we can scroll down here in B/C/S

10     language -- B/C/S version of it, you will see the ERN number at the end

11     of it.  You can see.  Maybe in English we go to the same -- maybe the

12     page before.  You have a reference to documents where you can find

13     information about the exhumations and everything, and we received it, as

14     you can see, from BiH State Court and Sarajevo Canton Prosecutor's

15     Office.

16        Q.   Mr. Janc, you are an investigator, so we wouldn't read the ERN

17     numbers which you mentioned here in the footnotes.  Can you tell us,

18     where did these persons who were found in Visegrad die, as they were

19     deemed to be the inhabitants and citizens of Zepa?  Where and how did

20     they die?  Can you tell this to the Trial Chamber?  Thank you.

21        A.   I think from those records we can conclude that they were -- that

22     they were killed, that their death was violent, and they must have died

23     in the vicinity of those places where they were found.

24        Q.   If they were killed in the vicinity of Visegrad, where they were

25     found, or close to the place called Stoborani, and so on and so forth,

Page 14723

 1     why do you then list them in the wider area of Zepa, why?  Because

 2     Visegrad does not belong to the wider area of Zepa.  Is it just because

 3     of the report or because you don't know that Visegrad is a town, whereas

 4     Zepa is a village?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Geographically speaking, you are correct, it might be a much

 6     better formulation to put it something differently.  What I wanted to

 7     emphasise here was that they are related to Zepa events, that they are

 8     related to the fall of Zepa.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  If a refugee from Zepa dies in the

10     United States, should he be included among the victims from Zepa?  Thank

11     you.

12        A.   No, not in that case.  But we have information from the missing

13     list that these individuals went missing after the fall of Zepa, and they

14     were found not close to Zepa, but in the area which is relatively close

15     to Zepa.  And it's nothing uncommon, because I just explained that people

16     were fleeing over the territory south-west, north.  We also have example

17     of victims from Srebrenica, which I testified already before, which were

18     found in Trnovo, which is south of Sarajevo, and we are still considering

19     them as victims which were killed after the fall of Srebrenica.

20        Q.   Would they be considered such only on the basis of reports and

21     documents or according to the locations where they were killed and the

22     manner in which they were killed?  Thank you.

23        A.   The most important for me was, indeed, the list of the missing

24     persons, and from that list we can see that they went missing after the

25     fall of Zepa.  From this table, we can see where they were found.

Page 14724

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And is it most important for the Court that they are

 2     from Zepa and that they are listed as missing persons from Zepa, and it's

 3     not important where and how they died and who killed them?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I think everything is important in this case.  That area at that

 5     time was under control of the VRS.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Can you tell us whether you investigated

 7     the grave in Vragolovi and its origins?  How did it come into existence?

 8     Thank you.

 9        A.   Yes, I did review documents that we have on this grave, and also

10     requested some additional documents.

11        Q.   Thank you.  As it is obvious from the evidence which have been

12     presented today to the Trial Chamber, and also through other witnesses

13     and cases, did these persons die under varying circumstances and in

14     different periods of time, and is the grave in Vragolovi a primary or a

15     secondary one?  Thank you.

16        A.   When reviewing documentation and also asking the individuals who

17     were present at this spot during the exhumation, it wasn't clear to me if

18     it is primary or secondary.  Based on the Eva Klonowski's statement, it's

19     most probably a primary grave, but she shouldn't be -- she wasn't --

20     during the interview, she wasn't very clear on that point.  Based on how

21     the bodies were found, so they were complete bodies, it is most probably

22     that this is primary grave.  Still, the possibility that some bodies were

23     moved from somewhere else or placed later on into this grave cannot be

24     excluded.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Were the bodies -- was the cause of death stated for

Page 14725

 1     these individuals by the teams working on this or by any state agencies

 2     of Bosnia and Herzegovina working on this?

 3        A.   We have autopsy records on all of these nine bodies, and the

 4     death for all of them was violent.  I think for most of them, directly,

 5     shot-gun wounds in the head.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Did you place them in a mass grave on the

 7     basis of how they were killed, or how they died, or did you classify them

 8     just by the very fact that they were found together in a mass grave?

 9        A.   They were found in one grave together, and these are the victims

10     of a crime -- of execution, and I placed those victims into my report of

11     April 2010 for my first time because so far we have almost all of them

12     identified already.  There were nine bodies inside; so far, we have eight

13     identifications done.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that Mrs. Palic, for example, testified

15     here, and she said that Mr. Palic had been buried in Visoko, where she

16     lived, that she passed by his grave without knowing that, and that only

17     later the commission transferred the body to the Vragolovi mass grave?

18     Thank you.

19        A.   This must have been misinterpretation or misunderstanding, what

20     Ms. Palic has testified about.  The body of Avdo Palic was exhumed along

21     with other eight individuals in 2001 from this Vragolovi grave.  At that

22     time, they didn't know who these individuals are, and that's why they

23     transported them to Visoko and reburied all of them -- all of them at

24     that place, at the cemetery there.  When they were identified, they

25     reburied them from this place again, and they were -- the bodies -- the

Page 14726

 1     remains were returned back to the families.  And, again, the families

 2     then, during the funeral, buried them -- at least three of them in

 3     Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean, Mr. Janc, that there is no mass grave

 5     at Vragolovi, and are you able to tell the Trial Chamber if the OTP and

 6     you, as an investigator, are aware of the circumstances in which each of

 7     those individuals was killed, the ones that you referred to just now that

 8     had been returned to Visoko and buried there?  Did they all die at the

 9     same time, in the same place, and in what circumstances?

10        A.   There is mass grave -- actually, there is a grave in Vragolovi

11     which was exhumed in 2001 and where nine bodies were found.  For all of

12     them, we have autopsy records which says that the death of these bodies

13     was violent.  It means they were executed.  We have those documents, and

14     I think I refer to them in my report as well.  If they died at the same

15     time, that's difficult to determine, based on when they were exhumed.  We

16     know for some of them, we have some statements which says that two of

17     those individuals, and I'm referring to Mehmed Hajric and Amir Imamovic,

18     were taken out of Rogatica, Rasadnik prison, in the middle of August and

19     never seen again.  We know from other statements, testimonies and

20     documents that Avdo Palic was taken out of Vanikov Mlin Prison at the

21     beginning of September, 4th to 5th or 5th to 6th of September, 1995.

22     It's difficult to say if they were killed at the same time or not.  What

23     we can see from the exhumation records is that bodies found there were

24     next to each other, mostly, but body of Avdo Palic was over the body of

25     someone else, so it's possible, theoretically, that other bodies were

Page 14727

 1     buried there first and later on Avdo Palic was placed over the other

 2     bodies and buried there as well.  So I can't exclude that possibility.

 3             And we have a sketch of Eva Klonowski where you can see exactly

 4     how the bodies were distributed inside the grave.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Janc, could you please repeat the name of

 6     this prison you mentioned in Rogatica?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  It is Rasadnik Prison in

 8     Rogatica.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please check the transcript, if it's written

10     correctly.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is almost correctly, just instead of O, it

12     should be A, the second letter.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Tolimir.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  You didn't answer my question.  Was the

17     case of death of all the persons found in the Vragolovi mass

18     grave something that was the same for all the persons there?  Did it

19     occur in the same way, in the same time, and in which circumstances?  Do

20     you have any information about that?

21        A.   No, we don't have any information about that, and I think there

22     is no pathologist on this earth who could identify this issue, so who

23     could say if they were killed at the same time or not.  This is only

24     possible if the actual death occurred during a certain period of time.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  You said just now that Torlak said this and

Page 14728

 1     this other person said that.  Was it possible, in conversations with the

 2     prisoners who were in Rogatica, to find out who disappeared from the

 3     group of prisoners and why they didn't appear --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter kindly asks Mr. Tolimir to

 5     repeat the last word.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please repeat the last word.  The

 7     interpretation stopped with --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last word was "exchange,"

 9     "exchange," why they didn't appear at the exchange at the same time as

10     the others who were with them in the Rasadnik Prison.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, there are several statements.  Not only of

12     Mr. Torlak, also other individuals who were imprisoned in Rasadnik Prison

13     and later on exchanged were testifying or talking about these individuals

14     and then -- and when they disappeared from a prison and then never

15     appeared back again.  And some of them also testified or stated that they

16     were maltreated and beaten badly, and they concluded that they were

17     killed.  Nobody actually has seen that, when and how they were killed,

18     but they never appeared back again and they were never exchanged.  And

19     now we know where they were found.  And from the exhumation records, we

20     can see that they were killed, executed.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And in these witness statements, were they all taken

22     out of the prison at the same time, the same day, and were they all

23     killed at the same time or, according to these witness statements, were

24     these persons taken out at different times and killed at different times?

25        A.   From these witness statements, we can't conclude anything with a

Page 14729

 1     certain level of certainty, because even the dates when they were taken

 2     out are different from these statements.  Some of them think that they

 3     were taken out at the beginning of August, some of them in the middle of

 4     August, some of them soon after they arrived, so we can't conclude

 5     exactly when they were taken out.  Most of them are talking that they

 6     were taken out, and now I'm referring to Mehmed Hajric and Amir Imamovic,

 7     at around the same time, even the same day, and they never appeared

 8     again.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And does the OTP have documents on the basis of

10     which one can reach any kind of degree of reliability as to when they

11     were taken, by whom, in what way?  It doesn't have to be a high degree of

12     reliability.

13        A.   There are witness statements.  And I think one of the witnesses

14     who will be talking about them is coming soon to testify here in front of

15     this Trial Chamber, so he'll be able to explain these details more

16     precisely than I can do because he was an eye-witness of this event.

17        Q.   Thank you.  But I wanted to ask about any documents in the OTP

18     about that.  Did you see documents of that kind?  Can they be used, can

19     they be looked at?

20        A.   If you are now referring to any kind of documents produced by the

21     VRS at the time or any kind of documents produced by the wardens or the

22     personnel who was in charge of this prison, no, we don't have any such

23     documents.  Everything we have are witness statements of the prisoners

24     who were kept in this prison.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Can you please tell us if you spoke with

Page 14730

 1     each of the prisoners who was in prison in order to gather information

 2     about persons found in the so-called mass grave at Vragolovi?  Thank you.

 3        A.   No, we haven't talked to every single one of them.  We have

 4     talked to some of them.  But we have statements which were provided to

 5     the OTP by the BiH authorities from other prisoners who were there and

 6     were interviewed after they were exchanged.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And did you look into those statements, and did you

 8     see, on the basis of that, whether they were executed at the same time,

 9     at different times, and were the perpetrators of the executions the same

10     persons in all the cases?  Thank you.

11        A.   Yes, I was reviewing these statements, and what I already said

12     just a few minutes ago, their statements are not consistent.  You know,

13     they are different in the matter of when this might happen.  But they are

14     consistent in a way that they say that they disappear at one point in

15     time on one day and that they never appear back again.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  And can you please tell us, if there isn't

17     a high degree of reliability, is the assessment of the investigator

18     important in that case, or should one be guided by findings of expert

19     witnesses or experts who establish the time of death, the manner of

20     death, and the circumstances that it occurred?  Thank you.

21        A.   I think the manner and the cause of death was established, and I

22     testified that you can find from autopsy records that their death was

23     violent, that they were executed; that is what was established.  The

24     exact time of death, I think it will be very difficult to establish, but

25     we can say it might be around the time when they disappeared from the

Page 14731

 1     prison in 1995.  And what also can be established from this perspective

 2     is that they were under control of the VRS, and then they were last seen

 3     when they were in their hands, and later on they were found in Vragolovi

 4     grave, which is about four kilometres away only from Rasadnik Prison, so

 5     very close to where they were last seen.  And this is territory of the

 6     Republika Srpska.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it is 7.00.  We have to adjourn.

 8     I think you are not able to finish the whole cross-examination.  We

 9     should continue it next week.

10             Can you give us an indication how much more time you need for the

11     conclusion of your cross-examination?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have any

13     more questions for this witness, other than to say thank you to him for

14     the answers that he gave and to wish him success in his work.

15             The only question I have is this:  Did he make the report for the

16     Court or did he make the report for the Prosecution?  This is the only

17     answer I would like from this witness.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Janc, can you help us?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, and -- I can help

20     you.

21             I made this report for the benefit of this trial, for this

22     Trial Chamber, so for this Court.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             The Defence did not get it.  We thank you.  We didn't receive it

25     as a report that was drafted for the Defence.  We received it as a

Page 14732

 1     document drafted for the OTP.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it this concludes your cross-examination.

 3     Correct?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Indeed, I do, Mr. President, and I won't be able

 9     to finish it in the time that we have.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's fine.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We don't have any time.  So perhaps we can put

12     it off to a more convenient date for the Court.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would only like to consider if it is helpful to

14     continue with the re-examination just on Monday - I don't know how much

15     time you would indicate - so that there is no interruption.  That would

16     be, for the Chamber, for a better understanding of the testimony of this

17     witness, but even for the witness, I think, if we could conclude that on

18     Monday.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thanks, Mr. President.  I think that's a good

20     idea.

21             We do have a witness who is arriving that must testify on Monday,

22     but I think the re-direct examination won't be long and shouldn't

23     interfere with his ability to testify to completion on Monday.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is, of course, in your hands, but you have

25     heard my, yes, proposal how to deal with this witness further.

Page 14733

 1             We have to adjourn for the week.  Mr. Janc, thank you very much.

 2     On Monday, we are sitting in the afternoon in this courtroom at 2.15.

 3     You are reminded again that it's not allowed to have contact on the

 4     content of your testimony with either party.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We adjourn.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of May,

10                           2011, at 2.15 p.m.