1 Tuesday, 31 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 The witness should be brought in, please.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Welcome back to the
9 courtroom. I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth
10 you made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.
11 WITNESS: MEHO DZEBO [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin is continuing with the
15 Mr. Elderkin.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, good morning to you and
17 Your Honours, and everyone else in the courtroom.
18 Examination by Mr. Elderkin: [Continued]
19 Q. And good morning, Witness.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Sir, at the end of yesterday's session, we were looking at a
22 document, and I'd like to carry on with some questions about that.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: So I would ask if we could have, again, P1434 on
24 the screen and for the first page of that document to be showing, please.
25 Q. Sir, let me know if you need have this blown up any more, but, I
1 think, for the moment it helps to see the layout of the page. Again,
2 this is a VRS document we saw yesterday, signed by Captain Zoran Cakic
3 and sent on the 30th of July of 1995.
4 And sir, you can see, starting in the middle of the page, a list
5 of names. It says:
6 "Information about r/z ... in the holding centre Rogatica.
7 "Since 28 July 1995 the following Muslims have a status of
8 prisoners of war placed in the military holding centre in Rogatica."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you look down that list of names, please. And, first of
11 all, look at the person at number 5. Tell us who that is?
12 A. That would be me.
13 Q. And the information given there has your name, the year of your
14 birth; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it lists you as wounded.
17 Now, the other names on the list, starting from the top, can you
18 go and look down this list and tell us if these were the people who were
19 with you in the Rasadnik prison camp. Starting with Mr. Hajric,
20 number 1.
21 A. Yes. All the people on the list were with me.
22 Q. And, sir, just to pick out the highlights there, we have at
23 number 1, Mehmed Hajric. Year of birth is given as 1968. A former
24 president of the War Presidency of the Zepa SOQ, a hodza by profession.
25 Number 2, we have Hamdija Torlak.
1 Number 3, Amir Imamovic. And we've heard about them from you
2 already yesterday, sir.
3 Can we see the next page, please.
4 And you will see that the list continues, sir. If you could
5 continue to look down the list and tell us if those people also were with
6 you in the Rasadnik prison camp.
7 A. I don't know the person under number 45. It says Atlantida,
8 1058. I don't know him. But as for the others, yes, I know all of them.
9 Q. If we could actually show the full width of the text at number 45
10 there just so you can read with what it says. And there it says after
11 Atlantida, and the number, "in the safe place and at another location."
12 You see that?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. According to the numbering on list, there were 44 prisoners in
15 the camp at the time this report was written. Does that match your
17 A. Yes, it does. Yesterday we said that from Tisca there was a
18 total of 43 persons who were returned. One day following our arrival,
19 Huso Cocalic joined us as the 44th person.
20 Q. And I think that we'll see just on the list here between numbers
21 32 and then 34, there appears to be some kind of gap. And,
22 unfortunately, we don't have the original paper copy of this document,
23 but there appears to be some gap there, and I just wanted to raise that
24 for the record. But the numbering continues, 32, 34, and then goes
25 through here, up until 45 at the end.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we go to the next page, please.
2 Q. And I think at the bottom, we can see the letter C as a heading.
3 If we could try to zoom in on that part of the screen.
4 Sir, let me know if you can read the text at point C. If
5 necessary, I can give you a hard copy of that page if it is not possible
6 to read the text with that width.
7 A. I can read it. It's not a problem.
8 Q. Okay. And I hope that's okay for the Defence as well.
9 We can read there that it says:
10 "Pursuant to the orders and instructions of General Tolimir, all
11 the necessary measures are taken and in accordance to the possibility
12 they are mainly being carried out. Among other things the following was
14 "Categorisation of r/z was done and they are placed in three
15 rooms: the healthy in one room, the wounded and the sick in another room,
16 and the members of the former leadership in the third room."
17 Does this correspond with how you were accommodated in the prison
19 A. The wounded and sick were placed in two small rooms that were
20 adjacent to each other. One could move between the two rooms, so we
21 could say that they were basically in the same room.
22 The rest is as it is stated in the document.
23 Q. When it refers to the members of the former leadership being in a
24 third room, do you know who that refers to?
25 A. Yes. Hamdija Torlak, Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric.
1 Q. Do you know for how long those three men were together in a room?
2 A. I am not certain. But up to two weeks, maximum, I believe.
3 Q. And after that point, where were they accommodated or what
4 happened to them?
5 A. Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric, we simply stopped seeing them.
6 Until that time, we were taken out for walks together in front of the
7 prison building. On one occasion, we were taken all together to the
8 river to take a bath there, which was about a kilometre away.
9 After we stopped seeing them, I don't know what fate they met, or
10 where they were taken.
11 Q. Sir, next in this document it says:
12 "Atlantida is separated and placed at another location and has
13 better accommodation."
14 You have already told us you don't know anything about this
16 So I will read on. Then it says:
17 "The effendi is allowed to pray in the room five times a day."
18 Do you know who the "effendi" here refers to?
19 A. Yes. Mehmed Hajric.
20 Q. Could this refer to anyone else except for Mr. Hajric? In this
21 context, in the camp here, not in general terms.
22 A. I don't think it does refer to anyone else. The word "effendi"
23 tells you that he was a hodza. It was approved to him to carry out
24 religious rites five times a day.
25 Q. Sir, since we talked about the three men who were referred to as
1 hodza in Zepa yesterday, just to be clear, do you know if either of the
2 other two men who you told us about yesterday were in the Rasadnik prison
3 camp while you were there?
4 A. They were not.
5 Q. Now, it says:
6 "They have food (three times a day) - they use an outhouse."
7 Is this correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Could you use this outhouse, toilet, freely, when you wanted?
10 A. In the morning and in the evening, we went as a group. We were
11 taken out of the prison building and then we would have to line up four
12 at a time to go and use the toilet. In between those times, if needed,
13 they allowed us to go, when we had to.
14 Q. Was there anything else you had to do when you were lined up and
15 going to use the facilities?
16 A. Yes, there was. They forced us to sing Chetnik songs as of the
17 moment we would leave the building en route to the toilet, and while we
18 were in the toilet, as well as on our way back. Along the route, there
19 were always three military policemen: one at the corner of the building
20 where we started; another one halfway to the toilet; and the third in
21 front of the toilet itself, to guard us. If someone refused to sing,
22 they would be beaten.
23 Q. Then it says in the document:
24 "They have medical treatment."
25 Did you receive medical treatment for your leg injuries while you
1 were in the camp?
2 A. Upon arrival, we were visited by their doctors. They bandaged
3 our wounds and assisted us. A few days later, ICRC physicians visited
4 us. They did much the same thing, but that was the extent of any medical
6 There was one sick person, though, who had leg problems who was
7 taken to Sokolac, I believe, to the hospital there. First, he had his
8 toes cut off, and, later on, immediately before the exchange, he was
9 taken there again. They amputated his left or right lower leg; I'm not
10 sure which.
11 Q. And if you didn't receive regular medical treatment from a
12 doctor, were you able to look after your wounds yourself?
13 A. You see, I had enough medical supplies in my bag. Of course, all
14 those items were taken away and placed in one of the rooms. But since I
15 personally knew the deputy camp warden because we were in the same class
16 at school for three years, I asked him a few times to give me the
17 supplies so that I could bandage my wounds. He categorically refused.
18 Since there was a lot of puss and oozing from the wound, I used toilet
19 paper to collect that. I received that toilet paper from the ICRC. In
20 other words, I had no medical supplies that I could use.
21 Q. Finally, right at the bottom of the page, it says:
22 "On 30th of July this year, the r/z are visited and registered by
23 ICRC delegation - office at Pale."
24 Is this the visit you told us about by the ICRC shortly after you
25 arrived at Rasadnik?
1 A. Yes, this is the visit.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like to see, please, now 65 ter 2240. I'd ask
3 Your Honours if this could not be broadcast. It's an ICRC document, and
4 our usual practice is to try to preserve ...
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It shouldn't be broadcast.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could see page 1 in the B/C/S, and I think
7 the corresponding page in English is page 2, since there's a cover letter
8 that appears in the sequence of documents there. I'd like that. We
9 should see the same page in both languages.
10 Q. Sir, the heading here is: "Working paper on ICRC visit to
11 Rogatica War Admission Camp, 30.07 and 31.07.1995."
12 And if you look down, sir, to the paragraph numbered 1 which is
13 currently at the bottom of the screen, it says:
14 "Progress of the visit. The ICRC delegates had been granted free
15 access to 44 detainees in total. Thirty-two were visited for the first
16 time and were registered. The other 12 were already registered ... on
17 July 26, 1995."
18 You've told us you remember the Red Cross visiting. Do you
19 remember if there were visits on two consecutive days, as is indicated by
20 this document?
21 A. Yes, I do. They came one day and registered those who had not
22 been registered previously. The next day ICRC physicians arrived, and I
23 presume they came to see the wounded and the sick.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd ask for the document to be
25 admitted under seal.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received, under seal.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2240 shall be
3 assigned Exhibit P2251, admitted under seal. Thank you.
4 MR. ELDERKIN:
5 Q. Sir, I'd like to hear from you now your story about what was
6 happening in the camp, particularly starting through the days -- we've
7 heard about your first days of arrival but from the beginning of
8 August of 1995. What was happening, who did you see, how were people
9 being treated?
10 A. For the first fortnight or the first ten days upon arrival, there
11 were basically no activities in the camp. Once a day, we were taken out
12 for some 40 minutes, up to one hour, for a walk in front of the prison
13 building. We walked in a circle lined up in a column. The whole time we
14 had to sing Chetnik songs.
15 Usually towards the evening when those in charge left the camp,
16 and I primarily mean the prison warden, the beatings started, depending
17 on who was on guard that evening. In a shift, we would spend a quiet
18 night and then in another shift, the beatings basically never stopped.
19 They would barge into the room, take out, beat people, return them,
20 either one by one or in groups.
21 Following those first ten days, they started taking us to perform
22 work obligation. First they took out older people and then those who
23 were wounded, depending on their health situation. At the same time, the
24 number of provocations and beatings diminished. We mainly went to work
25 to the local sawmill in the town itself. I don't know how many people
1 performed that work obligation specifically. We also went to cut wood
2 for the command of their brigade. We had to provide firewood.
3 In early October, we began going to Zepa to go to such buildings
4 that had not been destroyed or burnt down. We took down all carpentry,
5 timber that we could find, and we took it up to Borike where we managed
6 to put together nine weekend homes. Three of them were regular-sized
7 houses, and the other six were bungalow type.
8 While we were constructing those buildings, another group
9 continued being taken to Zepa, and they brought in hay that had been
10 prepared by the population during the summer for their cattle. They also
11 collected any wiring. In other words, anything that was left preserved,
12 was then brought to Borike.
13 Q. And, sir, you said you were on work duty then in October in Zepa,
14 as well as at Borike. Whereabouts did you go in Zepa on this work
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't receive interpretation at the moment.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Are you receiving interpretation now?
19 MR. ELDERKIN: [Interpretation] The interpretation has come back,
20 so I'll ask --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please repeat your answer. Then we will see if
22 that will be interpreted.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to the centre of Zepa, where
24 I took part in the removal of carpentry from the school building that had
25 been built.
1 The Ukrainian Battalion had been placed in the building during
2 the war, and the children did not attend school at the time. That's why
3 a new school was being built. It is that building that we stripped off
4 timber. We also went to a number of weekend homes that had not been
5 destroyed. We dismantled them and took them to Borike. Two of them were
6 in the centre of Zepa and another was in Slap close to the place where
7 the Zepa river flows into the Drina.
8 MR. ELDERKIN:
9 Q. Sir, having been in Zepa last on the 27th of July of 1995, how
10 did it look when you returned there for these work duties in October?
11 A. It looked totally different. Before we left Zepa, most of the
12 buildings were, if not in good condition because they had been shelled
13 before, but one could live in them. When I came in Zepa on the 8th of
14 October, 1992 --
15 THE INTERPRETER: States the witness.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I could see that most of the
17 buildings were destroyed. Some were destroyed by explosives, while
18 others were torched.
19 MR. ELDERKIN:
20 Q. Sir, perhaps can you see it already, but in the interpretation
21 we've got a reference to:
22 "When I came in Zepa on the 8th of October, 1992 ... I could see
23 that most of the buildings were destroyed."
24 Are you talking, sir, about 1992?
25 A. Yes, yes, about 1992. My first visit took place, I think, on the
1 8th of October, 1992, when they took us to bring over the construction
2 materials which I mentioned earlier.
3 Q. Sir, I put it to you, I think you must be talking about 1995, if
4 we're talking about the time [Overlapping speakers] ... in the prison
6 A. [In English] I'm sorry.
7 Q. Do you agree with that, it's 1995?
8 A. I'm sorry. [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, 1995. October 1995,
9 I'm sorry.
10 Q. You said some of the buildings appeared to have been destroyed by
11 explosives while others had been torched. Do you remember any particular
12 buildings that appeared to have been destroyed by explosives?
13 A. Yes. The local mosque was blown up, and one side building that
14 was the so-called Vakuf building, as they called it, in the immediate
15 vicinity of the mosque had business premises on the first floor, and
16 there were three apartments on the second floor. That was also destroyed
17 with the use of explosives.
18 Q. Are you aware of any of the Muslim residents of Zepa burning
19 their own property or homes before they left in the evacuation in
20 July 1995?
21 A. I'm not aware of that. I do not know that that took place.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, we've already seen aerial images
23 together in a combined exhibit of several before and after aerial shots
24 from July and August of 1995, which is Exhibit P2178. I'd like to have
25 that on the screen to use with this witness. Your Honours, to facilitate
1 using that exhibit, we've put together a hard copy which is one of these
2 A3 photo binders that has the six aerial shots showing on each double
3 page the before and after of the same area. The only addition is that we
4 have a layout that shows you how the images fit together, and I would ask
5 if I could hand this out to Your Honours and also to the witness, simply
6 to facilitate using Exhibit P2178.
7 The witness has already seen it in proofing, and we've given
8 copies to the Defence and also for the Bench and for the Court.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's fine. Please provide a copy to the -- to
10 the witness.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Just allowing the Defence to see the copy to be
12 given to the witness, to be sure that it's the same thing.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Just to be clear, the content of this exhibit,
15 it's -- the underlying images are those we were provided from the aerial
16 image provider. But the layout and how we've put it together, that's the
17 OTP's work.
18 Q. Sir, while you're looking, if you could open up the book and just
19 look through the pages there. If you take a minute to orientate yourself
20 you can see on the first page, you will see a combined set of images
21 which shows the three images of the pages that follow. And hopefully you
22 can see in the top right image marked number 3, the area of the centre of
24 And let me know if you're familiar with that orientation.
25 And while we're looking at the hard copy, if we could have on the
1 screen, I think, page number 5 of the electronic image. It should be
2 showing the centre of Zepa on the 27th of July of 1995.
3 Sir, the image on screen now, if you turn through the book to
4 page 3 and to the yellow marking of page 3. So if you turn a couple of
5 pages onwards from where you are. I think one more page. And then on
6 the left of the double spread, the yellow number 3, we have the image
7 that's on the screen. This is a shot of Zepa from the 27th of July,
8 1995. Again, to orientate you, we have indicated in a square in the
9 middle of that page and with a label the central mosque. And do you see
10 that, sir?
11 A. Yes, I can see that.
12 Q. And for your own orientation, do you see the area of the Zepa
13 school where the Ukrainian compound was?
14 A. To the left of the building which we just mentioned; that is to
15 say, the mosque.
16 Q. And can you see on this image any of the locations you've told us
17 about so far during your testimony, including -- let's start with the
18 police station where you said -- or the building where the police office
19 where you worked was located. Is that shown on this image?
20 A. Yes. One can see that to the right from the facility which is in
21 the square; that is to say, to the right of the mosque. It is a square
23 Q. I think if you are able to work with this image, it might help
24 then to mark this image with some of those locations.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: And ask if the usher could assist with that.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please, the usher should assist the witness.
2 MR. ELDERKIN:
3 Q. Sir, the usher will come to help. As I mentioned in our meeting
4 previously, then we can do this using the electronic pen.
5 Perhaps we could start, if you could make an X mark and the
6 number 1 next to it for the building where the police office was located.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now could you mark the -- where you said the Ukrainian compound
9 was, where you were before leaving from Zepa on the bus. And make an X
10 and a number 2, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And if you're able to do it, could you make a mark, perhaps a
13 circle to distinguish it for -- the place where you say you last saw
14 Avdo Palic when you were leaving Zepa. And put a 3 next to the mark you
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Also, sir, I don't know if you can do it based on the roads we
18 can see leading off this image, but you said that your family, your
19 parents' home was about 4 kilometres away. If you could put an arrow, if
20 possible, showing in which direction that home was, that would also help
21 us orientate.
22 A. This is the road, leading from the centre to the north, and the
23 arrow points further in that direction, as I have marked it now.
24 Q. Okay. That's great. Thank you, sir.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd ask if we could have the image saved and if we
1 could have that admitted, please.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This aerial photograph with the markings of the
3 witness will be received as an exhibit.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, page 5 of the Exhibit P2178 marked
5 by the witness in court shall be assigned Exhibit P2252. Thank you.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could go to the next page now in e-court.
7 And in the hard copy books, it's the page blue number 3 opposite on the
8 same open spread.
9 Q. Sir, this is an image from the 24th of August of 1995. And,
10 again, I hope you recognise the layout of the Zepa town. It is the same
11 orientation as the previous image.
12 Can you see the location of the mosque and the school in this
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sir --
16 A. The mosque remains in the same square in which it was, though the
17 building does not exist anymore. And the outhouse, the Vakuf house in
18 front of it, and the school remained in the same place where it was.
19 Q. Sir, the white squares marked around -- that we can see on this
20 screen are indicated as buildings that have been destroyed. Does this
21 extent of the destruction correspond with what you saw when you were in
22 Zepa on your work detail at the beginning of October of 1995?
23 A. Yes. These were privately owned family houses.
24 Q. Had those privately owned family houses been destroyed?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When your family returned to Zepa -- let's start --
2 When did your family return to Zepa, your parents?
3 A. They returned in the summer of 2001.
4 Q. When they returned, what was the condition of their house?
5 A. As the first floor of the house was built in stone, that was the
6 only part that remained. It couldn't burn, and that was saved.
7 Everything else was destroyed, and so were all the outhouses. Everything
8 had been torched.
9 Q. And what about the property of other families in the area where
10 your parents live? What was the condition of the houses of those other
12 A. Of all the neighbours, all but one house had been torched.
13 Q. I think you also mentioned that on the work detail in Zepa, you
14 went down to Slap, down by the river where the Drina river and the Zepa
15 river meet. Did you observe the condition of any buildings as you
16 travelled down to that location, or when you arrived at that location in
17 October of 1995?
18 A. Yes. There was just one weekend cottage in a normal condition.
19 And I suppose this was the only reason for us to go there, to take it
20 apart, and transport everything to Borike. As for other buildings, I
21 didn't notice that any of them were still useable.
22 Q. Could you see what had been done to those other buildings, if
23 anything? Were they simply unusable or had they been destroyed?
24 A. They were destroyed or, more specifically, torched.
25 Q. Apart from the people who were with you on your work detail, did
1 you see anybody in Zepa when you went there in October 1995?
2 A. As for the local population, no one had remained there.
3 Everybody had left Zepa. There were just two localities, one in the
4 centre of Zepa where I saw a group of soldiers. I cannot be precise,
5 perhaps 10 to 15 at the most, and in Slap at the check-point of the
6 Ukrainian Battalion, there were five to six men there. I don't think
7 there was anyone elsewhere.
8 Q. I'll ask just for the record you referred to soldiers at one
9 location in Zepa and some men at a Ukrainian check-point in Slap. Who
10 were those soldiers or those men? What -- what nationality or what
11 organisation were they from, if you know?
12 A. No, these were members of the Army of Republika Srpska.
13 Q. We're finished with that exhibit, so I won't ask you look at that
15 Turn back briefly to what you were telling us about the goings-on
16 at Rasadnik. You mentioned when you spoke yesterday a place you called,
17 I think, the notorious room or the infamous room. Can you tell us about
18 that? What was this room? What do you know about it?
19 A. The room was on the north side of the facility in which we were
20 accommodated, but it had a separate entrance on the same northern side.
21 It was physically separated by a single wall from the room in which I was
22 accommodated, and throughout my stay at the camp, we knew that there was
23 someone there. We always knew the numbers on the basis of the meals
24 which were taken from the room where we had our lunch and dinner. But we
25 didn't know who were the persons in question because we never had a
1 chance to see anyone of them until the last visit by the Red Cross on the
2 11th of January, 1996. That was when they took three unregistered
3 prisoners from that room and joined them with us practically for the
4 first time and registered them. But during my previous stay, sometimes
5 they would bring five meals for lunch, sometimes three, sometimes four.
6 So practically we always knew what was the number of people there, but we
7 didn't know who they were. And we called it the infamous room because
8 90 per cent of the time that someone spent there, there was torture,
9 beatings. One could hear cries, screams, cries for help and so on.
10 Q. Could you, yourself, hear these noises or you were told about
12 A. Yes. Each time, every night. Because, as I say, there was just
13 a single wall that separated it from the room in which I was
15 Q. At any later time, did you ever meet anyone who spent time in
16 that room?
17 A. I knew personally two of the persons mentioned. I had known them
18 before coming to the camp and I met the third one then. And we met a few
19 times after the war.
20 Q. Could you tell us who they were, please.
21 A. These were Jasmin Kulovac, Enver Krasic and Kadrija Sulejmanovic.
22 Q. Did these men ever tell you the names of anyone else who spent
23 any time in this notorious room?
24 A. Yes, they said that Mehmed Hajric and Amir Imamovic spent several
25 days with them in this room, that one Mujo Hodzic spent around ten days
1 with them and also Mujo Paraganlija.
2 Q. The four names you mentioned, do you know if any of them survived
3 to leave the Rasadnik prison camp alive?
4 A. They did not leave the prison. The bodies of Mehmed Hajric and
5 Amir Imamovic were exhumed, I don't know exactly, two or three years ago
6 in the Vragoli area. And as for Mujo Hodzic and Mujo Paraganlija are
7 still registered as missing. Nothing is known about them.
8 Q. Did the men who did survive, you said Mr. Kulovac, Mr. Krasic,
9 and Mr. Sulejmanovic, did they tell you anything about how the four men
10 who didn't survive had been treated while they were in this room?
11 A. Yes, they were regularly beaten while they were accommodated
12 there. But they also don't know where they were taken. They were simply
13 taken away from that room in the night, all of them. But where and what
14 happened to them, this is something they also do not know.
15 Q. Yesterday, you told us about one other man, Esad Cocalic who you
16 told us was taken out of your room one night and you had been told the
17 next day by the guard that he had been, I think, exchanged. Do you know
18 if that man was ever taken into this notorious room?
19 A. I think not. When they took him from our room, no one ever saw
20 him again, either the men who were accommodated in the notorious room or
22 Q. I'd like to move on now to a slightly later time.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd ask Your Honours, there's a document -- in
24 fact, there will be three documents for which I'm going to make this
25 request, documents which are not on our 65 ter list. They're marked with
1 an asterisk next to them on the exhibit list we submitted to use with
2 Mr. Dzebo. And the first one of those that I would ask to be added to
3 the 65 ter list is number 7403. It's a document that's been disclosed to
4 the Defence. It's actually a similar report to the first Red Cross
5 report we saw earlier, and it is originally published in both B/C/S and
6 in English. And I'd ask if we could go ahead to use that. If so, it
7 should not be broadcast for the same reasons as I stated for the first of
8 those Red Cross documents.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have any objections?
10 Mr. Tolimir, may I ask you again, do you have any objections?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I wish
12 to greet everyone present and the witness, and I hope that this day
13 finishes according to God's will rather than with my wishes.
14 I have nothing against this. I would just ask the Prosecution to
15 announce the documents in future. They can be announced and perhaps they
16 think that we might somehow abuse this if they did not announce them.
17 Because there are always additional documents with every witness.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not an objection. Therefore, leave is
20 granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit list.
21 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you. And as I said, if we could please have
22 that on the screen but not to be broadcast.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: And this time, I think because of the cover letter
25 situation, if we could show page 3 in the English and page 1 in the
1 B/C/S. We should see the corresponding pages. That looks right.
2 Q. Sir, the title of the document that's just being blown up on the
3 screen now refers to ICRC visits to Rogatica and Borike on
4 23rd of October and 27th of October, 1995.
5 Where were you around those dates?
6 A. I was at Borike.
7 Q. We can see the second of the paragraphs under the number 1. It
8 describes the progress of the visit:
9 "On 23.10, the ICRC revisited 24 detainees in Rogatica. The
10 authority informed the delegates that three detainees escaped since the
11 last ICRC visit and that one detainee had to be transferred to Sokolac
12 hospital where he was visited by ICRC field nurse on 02.11.1995. The
13 other 16 detainees, on working obligation in Borike, were revisited by
14 ICRC delegates together with the responsible of Rogatica War Admission
15 Camp on 26.10 at their working place."
16 Sir, do you recall being visited while you were at Borike by the
18 A. Yes, they visited us at Borike. They brought some clothes.
19 These were winter jackets, hats, gloves, I think some pullovers, track
20 suits, and they distributed ten packs of cigarettes per each person.
21 With their assistance, we contacted our families against by using
22 Red Cross messages. And that was it.
23 Q. Did you often receive such, I suppose, luxury items, such as
24 cigarettes while you were in the prison camp?
25 A. As the Red Cross visited us rarely, and we only got supplies from
1 them. I mean supplies of cigarettes.
2 Q. You mentioned earlier that one prisoner was taken to hospital in
3 Sokolac and went through some surgery involving amputation. Does this
4 correspond with what we've just seen in this part of the Red Cross
6 A. Yes. It was Hamdija Muratovic.
7 Q. What about what it says here concerning the escape of three
8 detainees. Did that happen?
9 A. No. One could presume that these would be Esad Cocalic,
10 Mehmed Hajric and Amir Imamovic, because only those three people were
11 missing at the time from the list. That was the difference in the head
13 As for any other prisoners, from beginning to end, none of them
14 even tried to escape.
15 Q. Is it possible that any of those three, though, could have
17 A. I don't think it is. If they had, they would have turned up
18 alive somewhere.
19 Q. Did the staff of the prison camp ever speak about these people or
20 speak about any escapes?
21 A. No. Not a word. I said yesterday that the deputy warden
22 Petar Despot personally took Cocalic out of the room, and the next
23 morning he told me that his cousin from Libya had sent money for him to
24 be exchanged. That was the only piece of information we had regarding
25 these three men.
1 Q. Did the Red Cross representatives ask you or, to your knowledge,
2 any -- the other prisoners anything about these supposed escapees?
3 A. Not only about that, but on the occasion of each of their visit,
4 they had lists of people from Zepa or from other areas. And they always
5 asked us whether we knew anything about those people, whether anyone saw
6 them, whether they were brought there, et cetera.
7 Q. Sir, just to be clear from your answer, did the Red Cross then
8 ask you about those three men who are described here as having escaped or
9 having been told to the Red Cross they had escaped?
10 A. They asked us if we knew anything about the three men, because
11 they were missing at the head count during their visits. Since we didn't
12 know anything, there was nothing to tell.
13 Q. Did anyone ever tell you or the other prisoners what you should
14 say about those missing men, if you were asked?
15 A. No one told us anything, probably because we never had separate
16 individual conversations with ICRC representatives. There were always
17 policemen around so as to be able to follow the course of those
18 conversations at all times.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, I'd ask for this exhibit to be
20 admitted also under seal, please.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received, under seal.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter document 7403 shall be
23 assigned Exhibit P2253, admitted under seal. Thank you.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, I'd ask now orally to add the second
25 of the three documents I mentioned which don't currently have a 65 ter
1 number. This one is marked as 7405. And, again, that appears on our
2 list of intended exhibits to use with this witness, and it's marked with
3 the usual asterisk to indicated that that's solely with leave of the
4 Trial Chamber.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that the Defence has no objection.
6 It will be -- leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter list.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President. And it's a single-page
8 document, so ... great. If we can just see that.
9 Q. Sir, this is one of the lists that I showed to you when we met
10 over the last couple of days before you started to testify. And we can
11 see at the top that this is a document sent from the Rogatica Brigade,
12 organ for POP and sent to the Drina Corps security department on the 28th
13 of December 1995.
14 And if we scroll just down to the bottom, we will see who it is
15 sent by.
16 The English may run onto two pages, I believe. We can see there
17 in the signature block, it's sent by Zoran Carkic.
18 You've told us you came across Mr. Carkic while you were in the
19 Rasadnik prison camp; is that correct?
20 A. Yes. I said yesterday that he interviewed a number of people in
21 the premises of the camp building.
22 Q. Sir, you told us the length of time that you spent in Rasadnik
23 camp, which I think takes us through to January of 1996. Could you tell
24 us about the end of your stay in the prison camp and how it was that you
25 came to be freed eventually?
1 A. When the Dayton Accords were signed, it was agreed that all
2 prisoners would be exchanged. Those of us who were in Rogatica became
3 part of that exchange programme. That's how we were exchanged.
4 Q. What was the sequence of events? When did you learn that you
5 were going to be exchanged, and when did it actually happen?
6 A. When the talks in Dayton began, our guards, the policemen, told
7 us that it was to be one of the items in the agreement and that it was
8 only a matter of time before it is realised. Therefore, from the
9 beginning of the Dayton peace talks, we knew what was going to happen.
10 We only received official information about an exchange when the ICRC
11 visited us the last time, on the 11th of January, 1996. On that
12 occasion, we filled out a number of questionnaires.
13 On the 15th of January, we were transferred to the prison in Kula
14 close to the Butmir airport in Sarajevo. On the 19th, in the evening, we
15 were finally transferred to the airport and exchanged.
16 Q. How many people from the Rogatica -- or Rasadnik prison camp were
17 exchanged at that time in January of 1996?
18 A. I'm not sure. Forty-three or 44; that is to say, all those who
19 were in the camp at the time. They were all exchanged at Kula, save for
20 Enver Krasic who wanted to be exchanged in Gorazde because that is where
21 his family was. He remained to be taken to Gorazde; whereas we were put
22 on buses and taken to the Kula prison.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we scroll up to the top of the page now on
24 screen in B/C/S and back to the beginning of the English. It is going to
25 be looking up and down this list of names.
1 Q. Sir, could you look at this list of names and tell us if this
2 corresponds with the people you recall who were exchanged in 1996 with
3 you. Please let us know when we need to scroll down the page.
4 A. You can scroll down.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could actually go down a bit further. I
6 think the numbers -- there we are.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This completely reflects the
8 situation. I only want to repeat that Enver Krasic was left behind
9 waiting to be taken to Gorazde, while we went to the prison in Kula in
11 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could just scroll down to the bottom of
12 the English side of the page, I think we can see there -- well, even to
13 the next page, I am afraid. It is cut off. The text there --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you move to another part of this document,
15 please, back in the English, I would like to know if the witness knows
16 anything about the person number 42, Ilijas Cuprija. What about him?
17 Was he left behind as well?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He, too, was exchanged with us
19 at Sarajevo airport.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua has a question.
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Indeed. Witness, you have just
24 told us that you were released from the prison camp in January 1996; is
25 that right?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Just one question. I don't
3 understand so I seek clarification.
4 Earlier on you said that after you were taken to the prison camp,
5 you returned to Zepa for the first time on the 8th of October, 1995, and
6 you saw that the mosque had disappeared, that your family house had been
7 burnt down and so on.
8 So did I miss something? Did I fail to understand?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that particular occasion, we
10 returned to Zepa to perform our work duties. We were taken there by the
11 camp policemen. We had work obligation to perform for them.
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Just for the clarity of the record, I'd like to
16 follow up from that question of Judge Mindua for a moment.
17 Q. And just ask that: The occasions you described, both when you
18 were on work detail in Zepa, you said also that you were at Borike for
19 work detail. These times, were you remaining under guard or were you
20 free to come and go as you pleased?
21 A. We were under guard. We were accommodated in a classroom of the
22 old school building. The military policemen guarded the building during
23 the night. In the morning, when we went to work, they escorted us to the
24 location. They were also deployed around the construction site. There
25 were three or four of them there at any time. We were constantly under
2 Q. Thank you. And I'd ask if we could just return to the bottom of
3 this document. It's the part describing under number 43, Enver Krasic.
4 It says after that:
5 "Prisoners of war from Gorazde registered by the ICRC and
6 accommodated in Rogatica."
7 Sir, does that correspond with what you were saying about
8 Mr. Krasic and his choice, that he wanted to be exchanged back to Gorazde
9 rather than to Sarajevo with the rest of the group?
10 A. Yes. This is the person.
11 Q. And having had a chance to look through this list of 43 names,
12 are these the people who were involved with you in the exchange when you
13 were finally released from the prison camp?
14 A. I'm afraid I did not receive the full question, as interpreted.
15 Could you please repeat.
16 Q. The 43 names that we see on this list, do they correspond with
17 the people who were released from the Rasadnik prison camp with you in
18 January of 1996?
19 A. Yes, they do.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, I'd ask for this document to be
21 admitted, please.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7405 shall be
24 assigned Exhibit P2254. Thank you.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I mentioned three documents I would
1 ask to have admitted to the 65 ter list. The final one of those three is
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see an objection by the Defence.
4 Leave is granted -- yes, Mr. Tolimir.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no objection
6 because we want to have it all admitted. However, we would like to ask
7 the Prosecutor to disclose such documents in a timely fashion so that we
8 can prepare rather than receiving them only once testimonies have begun.
9 They know it would be admitted, and that's why they wait so long.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, when was this disclosed to the
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. ELDERKIN: I understand it was disclosed last week when we
14 submitted our list of proposed exhibits for this witness.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is, indeed, quite late. We would like to
16 ask you to disclose these -- this kind of material in a timely manner.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: Of course, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go ahead.
19 MR. ELDERKIN:
20 Q. We're seeing this document now up on the screen. The heading is:
21 "List of captured Muslim fighters." And this document is not dated.
22 Sir, again, we looked at this document when we met over the last
23 couple of days before your testimony. And I'd ask you if you could just
24 look down the list. Let us know when we need to scroll down.
25 A. I've read it.
1 Q. If we could go right to the bottom of the page, please. And the
2 English, I think again, we need to go to a second page.
3 Sir, tell us, who are the people on this list? Do you recognise
4 the names?
5 A. All those up to number 43, and including number 43, are those who
6 were at Rogatica camp with me.
7 The people from 44 to 48, I don't really know them.
8 Q. Do those 43, to the best of your knowledge, correspond with the
9 first list we just saw a moment ago?
10 A. Yes. That is Enver Krasic, whom we mentioned, from Gorazde.
11 Q. And if we see at the bottom of this list, there's a remark which
13 "The first 43 are in Rogatica, and the last five in the Vlasenica
14 MUP prison. All are registered with the ICRC."
15 Does that correspond with your knowledge of the first 43 but not
16 of the last five?
17 A. Yes. The first 43 correspond.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we just go back to the top of the page
19 for a moment, please. And back to the beginning of the English as well.
20 Q. We see the list, as I mentioned, is titled: "List of captured
21 Muslim fighters."
22 Were all of the 43 of you in Rogatica Muslim fighters or
23 Bosnian Muslim Army or armed police fighters?
24 A. No, not all. The age doesn't tally either. On one of the lists
25 we could see years of birth, and there were some who were born back in
1 1934 or 1935.
2 Q. And about those people who had been in the camp but had
3 disappeared before the time of release, including Mr. Imamovic and
4 Mr. Hajric. Do you have any information that they were Muslim fighters?
5 A. Amir Imamovic, throughout the war, was commander of the
6 Civil Protection Staff in Zepa. Mehmed Hajric, I believe, did not take
7 part in the Army of BiH. He always had a position in civilian
9 MR. ELDERKIN: I've finished with the document. I would ask for
10 that to be admitted.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7404 shall be
13 assigned Exhibit P2255. Thank you.
14 MR. ELDERKIN:
15 Q. Sir, we've spent a few hours now going through your account of
16 the time in the camp, any other areas -- your experiences in the camp
17 that are relevant here. I would ask about any visits by senior members
18 of the VRS. Because you started the account by telling us that it was
19 General Tolimir who arrived when you first came to the camp. After
20 seeing General Tolimir, did you see any other members of the VRS, senior
21 members of the VRS, apart from the -- any people who were at the camp on
22 a regular basis?
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we did not receive
25 interpretation into Serbian. Mr. Elderkin's question was not interpreted
1 into Serbian. Therefore, Mr. Tolimir could not hear it.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, please repeat your question.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: I'll repeat it and I'll try and shorten it as
4 well, if I may.
5 Q. Sir, apart from the time when you first arrived at the Rasadnik
6 prison camp and saw General Tolimir there, were there any other times
7 during your imprisonment when you saw other -- not -- General Tolimir or
8 any other senior members of the Bosnian Serb Army? If there are, please
9 tell us about those in your own time.
10 A. As I said yesterday, I saw General Tolimir in Zepa on that day.
11 That was the penultimate day of evacuation.
12 I saw Pecanac throughout the evacuation process in Zepa. I don't
13 know what his rank was.
14 At Boksanica, I saw Kusic who was a local commander of the
15 Rogatica Brigade.
16 Then in Tisca, when we were brought there, I said I saw a
17 military policeman who took us off the bus, and I also saw
18 General Tolimir.
19 When we were getting into the camp building, that's when I saw
20 them, too.
21 During our stay in the camp, we had four or five visits by
22 General Mladic. We also had regular visits by Kusic, the local
23 commander. And that would be it.
24 Q. The four or five --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask a question in relation to Pecanac.
1 Was he in a uniform or did he wear civilian clothes?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was in uniform. He
3 actually introduced himself as Pecanac. I don't really know whether it's
4 his true name or not. That's how he introduced himself. And he was in
6 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I see it is just about the break
8 time. I don't have much more to ask. In any event, I would rather give
9 the witness time to give as full an answer as he would like. It would be
10 simply to ask him about the visits he mentioned by General Mladic during
11 the time in the camp. It may be better simply to take the break now and
12 then finish off with that final question. Unless the Defence would
13 prefer me to go a few minutes longer now.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it is a good time for the break. And
15 then after the break, you may continue.
16 We must have our first break now, and we will resume at 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Elderkin, please continue.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Sir, just before the break, you mentioned that you had, I think,
22 four or five visits by General Mladic during your stay in the camp. I
23 was going to ask if you would take your time now, tell us about those
24 visits, as best you remember them.
25 A. Yes. Considering the circumstances I was in, the first contact
1 with General Mladic makes you have an impression that are you meeting a
2 man who is coming from a world where civilisation has not yet appeared.
3 His entrance into the rooms where we were accommodated and his first
4 words were, Look here, Turks, your Alija should fuck you. He won't. So
5 I have to take care of you. Then he would condition speaking provocative
6 words. He said, You lived fine in Zepa. You had nice houses. You
7 organised dances, but where you used to live, I will populate some
8 mountain goats.
9 After that, he mentioned Budicin Potok and the 4th and 5th and
10 6th of June, how we had sullied our hands by jumping their column. See
11 how nice you look and you should go roast it to your families -- as we
12 received our children, and so on and so forth.
13 Eventually, he said, I offered to you your Alija but he won't
14 accept you. This is why you will stay here, to work for us. We will
15 introduce work obligation. And in front of the facilities where we were
16 accommodated, there used to be a cow farm before the war. There were
17 several facilities, each of them was about 70 metres long. When you
18 completely renovate this farm for me, then I will think whether I would
19 release you or not.
20 More or less, each of his visits looked and sounded like that.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 Q. Sir, thank you very much. I don't have any more questions for
23 you at this time.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Elderkin.
1 Sir, you know now Mr. Tolimir has the right to cross-examine you.
2 But before he commences his cross-examination, Judge Nyambe has a
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. You have testified that eventually you were
5 exchanged at Sarajevo airport. After you were exchanged, where did you
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the exchange, I met with my
8 family in Kakanj. I lived there with them for less than a month, after
9 which we moved to Sarajevo. I lived in Sarajevo until June 1999, after
10 which I moved to the United States where I am still residing.
11 JUDGE NYAMBE: And you testified that one of your colleagues, I
12 cannot remember the name, opted to go to Gorazde. You recall that? One
13 of the people who was incarcerated with you in the prison.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was Enver Krasic.
15 Everybody else from the list I mentioned were exchanged at the Sarajevo
17 JUDGE NYAMBE: Subsequently, do you know if Enver Krasic is still
18 alive and is still in Gorazde? Do you know? If you don't, it's okay.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I never got in touch
20 with him.
21 JUDGE NYAMBE: Just one more last question.
22 You said just now that after the exchange you went back with your
23 family. Should I assume you went back to Zepa?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I joined my wife and my
25 children in Kakanj. As I said, I lived there for about a month and
1 subsequently I moved to Sarajevo.
2 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, now it's your turn to commence your
5 cross-examination. You have the floor.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Once
7 again I wish to greet everyone. I wish peace for this house and I hope
8 that God's will be done in these proceedings rather than my wishes.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
10 Q. [Interpretation] I also greet Mr. Dzebo. And I wish he has a
11 plenty stay here amongst us.
12 As we are speaking the same language, I would ask him to wait
13 when I ask a question and say "thank you" until the transcript is
14 recorded and then only begin with his answer. I will try to do the same.
15 Thank you.
16 I will start with the last questions, in order to facilitate
17 matters for you. Judge Nyambe just asked you about Enver Krasic who said
18 that he wished to go to Gorazde. Do you know whether he features on a
19 list of missing persons or whether he was exchanged? Thank you.
20 A. I don't know whether he was exchanged or whether he figures on a
21 list of missing persons.
22 Q. Thank you. Judge Nyambe also asked you about how you were
23 exchanged at the Sarajevo airport and where did you meet with your
24 family. Please tell us whether, on the occasion of your exchange at
25 Sarajevo on 18th of January, 1996, General Tolimir was present and did
1 you see him there? Thank you.
2 A. I don't remember seeing him.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you need your microphone.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did General Tolimir show up at the reception centre for prisoners
8 of war at Rasadnik near Rogatica after the 27th of July or, rather, the
9 28th, after he talked with you and your group at the prison? Do you
10 remember that?
11 A. I never saw him after that. I just remember the first day when
12 we were brought to the camp building.
13 Q. Thank you. You were eventually asked about persons who were
14 exchanged together with you at the Sarajevo airport and those who were
15 from Vlasenica, the five men who were added to your list.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see P2255 in
17 e-court, which was shown to you, as it's a Prosecution document, so that
18 you could have a look. It used to be 65 ter 7405. Thank you.
19 Thank you. We can see the list now.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We can see down to number 37. Can we please scroll down so that
22 we can see down to 43. That was the number of people you said were
23 exchanged with you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please place the document so
25 that number 43, Krasic, Enver, is in the bottom in e-court. Thank you.
1 So that Krasic, Enver, number 43, is the last one on the list, towards
2 the bottom of the list, so that we could see those who are above him, so
3 that we could see the first nine that are on the list. Thank you. There
4 it is. Thanks.
5 We can see now the list beginning with the Camil Kulovac. Under
6 number 1, it should say Kulovac. Down to 43 which is Enver Krasic.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you please tell us for the record whether these 43 persons
9 were exchanged with you on the 18th of January, 1996, at the Butmir
10 airport in Sarajevo? Thank you.
11 A. As I said earlier, all those from number 1 through to number 42,
12 concluding with Ilijas Cuprija were transported to prison Kula at Butmir.
13 Enver Krasic remained to wait for transportation in the direction of
14 Gorazde because he had expressed the wish to be exchanged at the
15 check-point in Kopaci near Gorazde. Whether he left on the very same
16 day, whether he stayed there longer, that's something I don't know.
17 Q. I'm sorry, I have to ask you again something you already told the
18 Prosecutor, for the sake of transcript, but I have to. The rule is that
19 it should enter the transcript.
20 This is my question: As for these 42 persons from the list, from
21 number 1 to number 43, concluding with Ilijas Cuprija, did they cross
22 over from the territory under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska
23 to the territory under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on
24 18th of January, 1996, when the exchange at the Sarajevo airport took
25 place? Thank you.
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask you, Mr. Tolimir, to slow down. It is
3 difficult for the recorder to record everything you have said.
4 And please pause between question and answer to avoid
6 Continue, please.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. While we can still see the list, I wish to ask you the following,
10 Mr. Dzebo. Were all those who were together with you at the reception
11 centre in Rasadnik in Rogatica exchanged together with you or not on the
12 day of the exchange; that is to say, the 18th of January. Thank you.
13 A. I repeat once again: Everyone except Enver Krasic was exchanged.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you please say for the record whether all those
15 whom you were meeting at the reception centre Rasadnik in Rogatica from
16 the period when you arrived there to the time when you left were
17 exchanged, and if not, who was not? Thank you. Just pause a minute
18 before answering.
19 A. Everyone who happened to be there at the time when I was detained
20 was exchanged, except Mehmed Hajric, Amir Imamovic, and Esad Cocalic.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can you please say for the record when was the last time you saw
25 Mehmed Hajric and what was the reason he was not exchanged with you when
1 you were exchanged? Thank you.
2 A. I cannot be 100 per cent precise in terms of the date, but I
3 think it was in mid-August 1995.
4 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that until the 15th of August, 1995,
5 he was at the reception centre for prisoners of war Rasadnik in Rogatica?
6 I mean Mr. Mehmed Hajric. Thank you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Please tell us whether you know when Amir Imamovic left the
9 reception centre and when did you stop seeing him at the reception centre
10 for prisoners of war at Rasadnik near Rogatica? Thank you.
11 A. At about the same time as Mehmed Hajric.
12 Q. Thank you. Please tell us, did Amir Imamovic then go missing
13 from the reception centre for prisoners of war at Rasadnik near Rogatica
14 on the 15th of August, 1995, and was it then that you stopped seeing him
15 and didn't see him after that date?
16 A. I never saw him again after that date.
17 Q. You also talked about Mujo Hodzic; do you remember that? And do
18 you know when he left the reception centre Rasadnik in Rogatica? Thank
19 you. Do you know the day and the month, if you remember? Thank you.
20 A. I mentioned Mujo Hodzic, but I also noted that I didn't see Mujo
21 personally after the exchange. I talked to people accommodated in the
22 so-called notorious room, as we called it, and they told me that
23 Mujo Hodzic and Mujo Paraganlija had been there. Under what
24 circumstances they were taken away from there, I wouldn't know.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us whether you learned from other
1 prisoners whether they were taken away before Hajric and Amir Imamovic or
2 were they taken away from the detention facility in Rogatica after them.
3 A. I don't know whether they were taken away before or after that.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at 1D785.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. This is your statement.
8 You can see it now. That is your statement given to the organs
9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina after your arrival from the reception centre in
11 In paragraph 4, as we may call it, you say -- it's page 2 in
12 English, please. Or it's even better to have a look first at paragraph 2
13 so that you would remember better.
14 You say in paragraph 2:
15 "The first time we could wash ..."
16 Did you find this?
17 A. I can see page 1 on the screen.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have a look at page 4
19 of your statement, paragraph 2 in the Serbian language, which is page 4
20 also in English. Thank you.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Here it is. The easiest way to notice it is where it says "the
23 6th of August, 1995, "in the second paragraph.
24 A. Yes, I see it.
25 Q. It's line 7, and you say the following:
1 "On 6th of August, 1995, in Rakitnica river, was the first time
2 we were allowed to wash and the next time was seven days later," in the
3 Rakitnica river.
4 "In this interfering period, effendi Mehmed Hajric and Amir
5 Imamovic disappeared from the camp. From then on, we heard cries coming
6 from the so-called infamous room every day. We heard different cries and
7 orders to get up. I was later told by Jasmin Kulovac that Mehmed Hajric
8 and Amir Imamovic had been taken to this room and that they had been
9 tortured and beaten there day and night for about ten days. One early
10 evening after ten days, they were taken away, and we ... never learned
11 what ... happened to them. Following their disappearance, Mujo Hodzic
12 from the village of Osva [phoen], Rogatica municipality, was taken to
13 this infamous room. He, too, spent about ten days there, and he, too,
14 was beaten and tortured non-stop. We could hear his moans and cries.
15 He, too, disappeared; he was taken away?
16 "In mid-August, they started taking us and the wounded to
17 labour," so on.
18 This is my question: Can one see from this part of your
19 statement that Mr. Mujo Hodzic arrived after the 15th of August to the
20 so-called infamous room; that is to say, after the departure or
21 disappearance, as you called it, of Mr. Mehmed Hajric and
22 Mr. Amir Imamovic? Does this description correspond to that, this part
23 of your statement, I mean? Thank you.
24 A. Everything I said in the statement, or, rather, in the part of
25 the statement is something that is -- that was retold to me by
1 Jasmin Kulovac. I repeat, as I said yesterday, throughout this period,
2 we heard beatings, we heard cries but we didn't know who that was. I
3 learned this from Jasmin only once the exchange had taken place. It was
4 quite normal that everything was being discussed and so this was one of
5 the things that were mentioned.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzebo. Can you please tell us whether then
7 Jasmin Kulovac, Enver, and Kadrija Sejmen [as interpreted], who were also
8 in the room and who were exchanged with you, should they know when
9 Hajric, Imamovic, and now this Mujo Hodzic we are talking about, left the
10 room and then later on also Mujo Paraganlija.
11 So could they help us to conclude who disappeared from the
12 detention facility at what time? Can you help the Trial Chamber? Thank
14 A. Probably one of these three or all three of them would be much
15 more precise than me in terms of this information.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I would kindly ask you to repeat two
17 names. At the beginning of your last question, you said:
18 "Can you please tell us whether then Jasmin Kulovac," and then
19 you mentioned two other names which were not recorded.
20 Could you please repeat these names, please.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I mentioned
22 Kadrija Sulejmanovic, and I mentioned Enver.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. And now the witness, Mr. Dzebo, can tell us what was his actual
25 name for the record. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was Enver Krasic and
2 Kadrija Sulejmanovic.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzebo. Can we please just say briefly for the
6 sake of the record, are there witnesses who saw when Mr. Hajric, Mehmed;
7 Amir Imamovic; Mujo Hodzic and Mujo Paraganlija were taken from the
8 reception centre for prisoners of war in Rasadnik near Rogatica? Thank
10 A. Three of those who were in the room and who have been mentioned
11 can be witnesses who would be more precise than myself. As I said
12 previously, they are Jasmin Kulovac, Kadrija Sulejmanovic, and
13 Enver Krasic.
14 Q. [Microphone not activated]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can you now please look at the very same page we are looking at
18 now. And below the passage I read out to you from, the following
19 paragraph says: "In mid-August" -- I'm quoting your statement now:
20 "In mid-August, they started taking us and the wounded to
21 labour. This involved clearing out the stables, cutting wood, digging
22 canals," and so on.
23 "On the 5th of September, 1995, at about 2245 hours, the deputy
24 camp warden, Mr. Petar Despot, also known as Pero, came into my room and
25 took out Esad Cocalic from the village of Stitari, Visegrad municipality.
1 In the morning, Pero told us that Esad Cocalic had been taken to be
3 And then follows what we said during examination-in-chief about
4 his brother from Libya.
5 This is my question: The 5th [Realtime transcript read in
6 error "35th"] of September, 1995, was that the date when Esad Cocalic
7 went missing from the reception centre for prisoners of war at Rasadnik
8 near Rogatica where you were also detained at the time?
9 A. Yes. On that date, in the evening, Mr. Petar Despot, who was
10 deputy prison warden, took him out of the room.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: I think it may be unnecessary, but since it is
13 staring out in the last paragraph, "the 35th of September." Clearly
14 corresponds to the 5th of September that was referred to in the quotation
15 previously. But ... we should probably make a note that the 35th of
16 September is an incorrect reference.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Since there is never a 35th of September, I think
18 you are quite correct, looking at the document on the screen.
19 Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. And
21 thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Dzebo, can you tell us whether you know if any other
24 detainees who were with you in the reception centre Rasadnik in Rogatica,
25 went missing while you were there as a POW in 1995 and 1996.
1 A. I don't know of any such cases. I believe they were all
3 Q. Thank you. Since we are discussing your statement, let's look at
4 page 5, paragraph -- well, we may call it 4, line 6. You mention
5 Budicin Potok.
6 During examination-in-chief, you said that you were interrogated
7 in August 1995 about certain events in Budicin Potok. Can you tell the
8 Chamber, since they are not familiar with the name of Budicin Potok, what
9 it was all about? What events did you refer to when you said you were
10 interrogated in August 1995?
11 A. To tell you the truth, I don't want to talk much about
12 Budicin Potok because it is well known that it took place between the
13 5th -- 4th and the 6th of June, 1992. I arrived in the territory of Zepa
14 on the 21st of July; that is to say, a month and a half later.
15 All I can say is -- is what I heard from others. I don't know
16 how balanced those stories were or whether things were blown out of
17 proportion or not. It is known that there was a column of JNA vehicles
18 transporting either JNA regulars or reserve soldiers heading for the
19 Zlovrh facility, which used to be a JNA facility.
20 En route to Budicin Potok, they burned some houses in the village
21 of Stoborani as well as in the village of Godenje. In the hamlet of
22 Luke, a few kilometres before, they encountered some obstacles on the
23 road. They did the same. So there were obstacles on the road at
24 Budicin Potok. There was combat with losses on both sides and part of
25 the column managed to turn back and return on the third day of fighting.
1 They managed to pull out their wounded, and they torched and destroyed
2 the remaining houses in the two villages I mentioned, Godenje and
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you clarify which -- the year you are talking
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the 4th, 5th, and 6th of
7 June, 1992; that is to say, the beginning of the war.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Dzebo, since you were interrogated by members of the
13 State Security Service in August 1995 about this event, did you provide a
14 statement concerning that topic?
15 A. I provided a statement to an inspector. He introduced himself as
16 Vojinovic. Given the fact that I told him what I just told you, he had a
17 degree of understanding and he didn't bother me much about Budicin Potok.
18 He didn't put any pressure and he didn't try to extract or force me to
19 tell him anything in particular about Budicin Potok.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you share with him the information you just did
21 with the Chamber about how the villages you mentioned were torched and
22 how it came about that an ambush was set up; or did you just tell him
23 that you did not take part in it?
24 A. It was not the topic. He was more interested in knowing the
25 names of Zepa TO members who participated in the ambush when the column
1 was attacked.
2 Q. Thank you. Could you recognise the area where it all took place
3 if I showed you a map, and perhaps then you can tell me if you ever went
4 to the area?
5 A. I could.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have P104, page 15.
8 Thank you.
9 Could we please have map 11 in e-court. Thank you. I don't
10 think this is map number 11. Map number 11 is on page 13.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: I think General Tolimir has worked it out now, but
13 the numbering in e-court is two higher than the page numbering within the
14 map book itself because the cover page and the contents page are
15 numbered. So if you add two on to the marked number at the bottom of the
16 page, that's the e-court reference.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Now we have it on the screen.
18 Mr. Tolimir, is that the correct map you were asking for?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is
20 the map I wanted. It seems to have gone missing from my screen. I may
21 have pressed a wrong button.
22 Could you please scroll down a little. Thank you.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Dzebo, can you see where it says Krivace IKM, Podzeplje IKM,
25 and the 65th Protection Regiment base?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. There seems to be a gorge underneath it with a creek, and then it
3 says "Brloznik" in yellow. Can you see that?
4 A. I can see Godenje IKM but not Brloznik.
5 Q. Go to the north where it says "65," and it should be in yellow.
6 A. Yes, I see the 5th Infantry Company.
7 Q. Is Budicin Potok near Brloznik?
8 A. The road towards Budicin Potok goes through the hamlet of Luke
9 near Brloznik. Budicin Potok is at least 2 to 3 kilometres away from
11 Q. Thank you. Could you mark on the map where Budicin Potok is.
12 Please just circle the area and mark it with 1.
13 A. You mean the area of Budicin Potok?
14 Q. Yes. Thank you.
15 A. Where it says Strmica, just underneath it?
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait with marking until the Court Usher
17 has prepared the screen.
18 Now please mark it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I placed a dot just under Strmica.
20 That is approximately the area of Budicin Potok.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you. Mark it with 1. Place a 1 next to it.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Mark with 2 the command post in Podzeplje and Krivace.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Can you tell us the distance between the numbers 1 and 2 in
2 kilometres, since, on this map, 1 centimetre is 2 and a half kilometres?
3 A. Well, I'd say between 5 and 7 kilometres.
4 Q. Thank you. Was this the position of the front lines until 1995?
5 A. Which lines do have you in mind?
6 Q. The separation lines. The red lines are the positions of the
7 VRS. And the Army of BiH is marked in blue, encircling Zepa.
8 A. Yes. Approximately it was so.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber how come for five years of
10 the war the Main Staff was only 5 kilometres away from the Zepa forces
11 and then a direct conflict ensued in August 1995?
12 A. I don't know why the conflict took place at that time, and I
13 don't know why the forces were kept at that particular distance.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My legal consultant told me I was
15 wrong about the month. It was the -- it was July 1995.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. So the lines moved in July 1995. Until that time, the separation
18 line remained throughout the period of the war, 5 kilometres away from
19 the command post?
20 A. Yes, these lines were set once UNPROFOR entered the demilitarised
21 zone of Zepa in May 1993. This is when the separation lines were
22 determined and remained as such until the final attack on Zepa in
23 July 1995.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether Zepa was supposed to have
25 been demilitarised at the time. And, if so, what was the sense of having
1 front lines separating the VRS and the Army of BiH, particularly in view
2 of the fact that UNPROFOR was there?
3 A. The way Zepa was supposed to be demilitarised is something that
4 I'm not familiar with. I only know that there were negotiations between
5 the representatives of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who came in May 1993
6 from Sarajevo and the representatives of the VRS, under the auspices of
7 UNPROFOR and UNMOs. What kind of demilitarization was agreed upon is
8 something that I don't know. I'm not familiar with any details of it.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the column was moving in combat
10 order in the area of Budicin Potok towards Zlovrh hill to bring food to
11 the crew at the relay station there?
12 A. I have to go back to the beginning when we touched upon the issue
13 of Budicin Potok.
14 All I can tell you is based on what I heard from others. I
15 discussed with them once I arrived in Zepa. I know what direction the
16 column was coming from and how far it got. As for its reasons to go to
17 Zlovrh, that is something I can't tell you anything about.
18 Q. Thank you. Let's look at -- sorry.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this first. And
20 in e-court, we should look at D92 next.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The markings should be saved. The marked map
22 will be received as an exhibit.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, map number 11, e-court page 13, of
24 Exhibit P104 marked by the witness in court shall be assigned
25 Exhibit D272. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. D92, please.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. While we wait for it, I wanted to tell you that it is a
4 Main Staff document, the Main Staff of the VRS. Its sector for
5 intelligence and security within the security administration. The date
6 is the 23rd of August, 1995; that is, after the events in Zepa.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, before you deal with this one, can
8 you tell me, are you tendering the previous document, the statement of
9 the witness, 1D785?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, I
11 tender it, and I will still be using it. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D785 shall be
14 assigned Exhibit D273. Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Dzebo, we can see now in front of us a criminal report dated
19 the 23rd of August, 1995, which was created at the time when you were in
20 detention, or, rather, at the reception centre for prisoners of war at
21 Rasadnik in Rogatica.
22 And from the first -- or, last page we can just see names of
23 persons about whom inspectors of state security were asking about; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please show in e-court
2 the other pages of this document just so that we could allow the witness
3 to glance at them and to check whether questions were asked about these
4 persons as well.
5 So can we leaf through the document to the last page? Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The copy is poor. It's difficult
7 to read the names.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. Can you find your bearings? Are these the names?
10 The fourth page. Now we can see the fifth page. Can we zoom in, please?
11 A. It's easier to see the English version so that I can glance at
12 that one.
13 Q. Well, thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also see the following page.
15 Thank you.
16 Thank you. Let us show the following page as well. Thank you.
17 And the next page in English, please. Thank you.
18 Can we also see the next page in English, please. Thank you.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We can see the number 149. It says "Dzebo." Do you know who
22 this relates to? Thank you.
23 A. No. The first name is not clear.
24 Q. The name should be Ibro when you see number 49. Can you see it?
25 It says the son of Kamera [phoen].
1 A. Son of Omer, born in 1959. I think this is an error. Ibro Dzebo
2 is no one familiar to me and there is no such person.
3 Q. And is there Meho Dzebo?
4 A. Yes. It is my namesake. He is just three years older than me.
5 Q. Does this correspond to his description judging by the place of
6 birth? Thank you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we now pleases show the next page because this is
9 important. It's correct that it's not you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would kindly ask to enlarge the name of one --
11 number 149. Only the name. It's really illegible.
12 Thank you. Please continue.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please see the
14 next page. Thank you.
15 We see the next page now and that is the last page.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. We see the next page now and that is the last page. We can see
18 there that this is a criminal report, and it says here in the second
20 "On the 4th of June, 1992, at the place called Riza, near
21 Bruznik [phoen] village at the Han Pijesak-Godenje-Stoborani cross-roads,
22 they carried out an attack on a column of military vehicles and soldiers
23 of the Army of Republika Srpska, on which occasion they killed 43 ...
24 soldiers and officers of the VRS, took 30 soldiers prisoner and burned
25 and destroyed a large number of vehicles and other materiel and technical
1 equipment, and, in contravention of the rules of international law,
2 perfidiously liquidated injured soldiers from the attacked column at the
3 scene of the incident."
4 On the basis of this, my question is the following: Can you see
5 here that it says that 30 soldiers were taken prisoner, and do you know
6 where these prisoners were held in Zepa? Thank you.
7 A. The information I have relating to these prisoners, I cannot be
8 precise about the numbers because I'm not aware of that, but I know that
9 they had some soldiers who had been taken prisoner and I know that they
10 took them and accommodated them in the primary school in the Godenje
11 village in the territory of the Han Pijesak municipality. The same
12 soldiers were released by members of VRS on the third day of the battle,
13 that is to say, on the 6th of June, when Godenje village was practically
14 attacked. The soldiers were set free, I mean to say the prisoners, and
15 the remaining houses in the said village were torched. That was on the
16 day on which the convoy withdrew, or, rather, what was -- what remained
17 of the convoy withdrew from Budicin Potok.
18 Q. Thank you. And do you know that on the 4th of June an attack was
19 carried out on a column which was not in combat order but in a marching
21 A. I wouldn't know in what order the column was going. I cannot say
23 Q. Thank you. And do you know --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you are now dealing with events in
25 1992. I don't recall that Mr. Elderkin, during his examination-in-chief,
1 raised these events. That was, in my understanding, not a part of the
2 examination-in-chief. I would like to ask you what is the purpose of
3 this line of questions?
4 Mr. Elderkin.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: To be fair to Mr. Tolimir, I did bring out the
6 witness's knowledge, I think, of the attack on the convoy around the part
7 of the examination-in-chief where he talked about his own move from
8 Rogatica to Zepa in 1992.
9 I would say at this point, though, given the witness's only
10 indirect knowledge of the events of the attack on the convoy, it is
11 perhaps going a bit far into that.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. This is, indeed, a very fair and
13 correct comment. I didn't recall that and, therefore, I asked
14 Mr. Tolimir to explain that.
15 But you helped him. Thank you very much.
16 Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm
18 asking about a document dating the 23rd of August, 1995, which was
19 drafted on the basis of the statements of prisoners of war taken at the
20 reception centre Rasadnik in Rogatica. And during this testimony in
21 these proceedings, we also heard Colonel Salapura who told us that he dug
22 out with his own hands carbonised bodies of soldiers who had been killed.
23 If you don't remember, I can try to find the transcript which
24 includes these details. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was not my comment, in relation to the
1 testimony of other witnesses. But the question is clarified by the
2 comment of Mr. Elderkin, and you may continue.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Dzebo, so as not to dwell on this any longer, I will just ask
6 you this: Did you ever talk with any other prisoner of the
7 Army of Republika Srpska who was held in Zepa?
8 A. No, I never had any occasion to come across any of these men.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Mrdjan Delimir [as interpreted] was
10 a prisoner in Zepa and that he was exchanged on the very same day when
11 the first column from Zepa started in the direction of Kladanj? Thank
13 A. Yes, I know that.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the name? It was not
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm talking about
17 Mrdjan Delimir, a soldier of the Army of Republika Srpska, whom the
18 sabotage groups which left the Zepa area took prisoner at the deployment
19 area of the Main Staff in 1995.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just wanted to have the name on the record
21 which was not recorded.
22 Mr. Gajic.
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I see that on page 56
24 in line 24, the name is wrongly recorded again. His name is
25 Mrdjan Velimir, with a V, in the last name.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification.
2 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Dzebo, on page 35, in line 5, you said during your testimony
6 that on four occasions while you were at the reception centre in Rasadnik
7 in Rogatica, General Mladic visited you and how he told you, Merhaba,
8 Turks, and how he was cursing Alija that he wouldn't have you and that he
9 had to hold you.
10 This is my question: He also told you that you sullied your hands
11 in Budicin Potok. Did these Mladic's threats have to do with the
12 activity which had taken place in Budicin Potok in which 43 soldiers had
13 been killed and 30 taken prisoner? Thank you.
14 A. It probably had to do with that because in that sector there had
15 been no other combat operations, except this one that had to do with the
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the Army of Republika Srpska
18 requested an exchange of its soldiers who had been taken prisoner at
19 Lisace, near Majevica, the Lisace hill, who were held in Tuzla for you
20 who were held at Rasadnik in Rogatica and that they never wanted to
21 accept that and that they kept imposing conditions in various ways. And
22 was that the reason why Mladic told you that Alija wouldn't have you?
23 Thank you.
24 A. I personally heard that information from you, on the first day on
25 my arrival at the camp building, as I already described. Now whether the
1 information as we were told was such or was it something else, that's
2 something I don't know, and I really wouldn't like to comment on that.
3 Q. Thank you. And do you remember whether I told you on the first
4 day when I visited you at the detention facility when I returned from the
5 separation line in Kladanj, that you remained there because the Muslims
6 wouldn't exchange soldiers of the VRS who had been taken prisoner at
7 Lisace during the exchange at the Sarajevo airport, and that the exchange
8 would probably take place in three days?
9 Are you aware of that and was it so or not? Thank you.
10 A. Yes. As I said during my previous testimony, it was so.
11 Q. Thank you. We'll return to your statement now.
12 During your time in detention, did any organ of the
13 Rogatica Brigade or anyone else from the commission or the Red Cross tell
14 you that you would be waiting for your exchange until the Muslims offered
15 for exchange the soldiers who had been taken prisoner at Lisace? Thank
17 A. After the day when you told us the reasons why we were detained,
18 no one of mentioned these prisoners from the Dubrave airport again.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This statement of the witness is D273.
20 Mr. Gajic.
21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I see that the name
22 which Mr. Tolimir mentioned is wrongly recorded on page 58 in line 21.
23 It is Lisace.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Tolimir.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzebo. During the examination-in-chief, you told
3 Mr. Elderkin that you learned from Mehmed Hajric in detention why you had
4 to wait the whole night in Boksanica on the first night when you were
5 taken to the separation line in Kladanj which never really happened.
6 Can you remember any other details that Mr. Hajric told you or
7 which you learned about while you were detained? Thank you.
8 A. Yes. We were told that negotiations were being conducted in
9 Boksanica. I don't know who were all those who participated in these
10 negotiations. But eventually they sent Mehmed Hajric up to the mountain
11 to meet representatives of the command of the Zepa Brigade and offer
12 them, as I said yesterday, to hand in their weapons, to surrender, all
13 those who were clean would be released. Those who were not would be
14 prosecuted. If not, the convoy which had been stopped at Boksanica would
15 still be held there. They took Mehmed Hajric in an UNPROFOR vehicle by
16 soldiers, members of the Ukrainian Battalion. He conducted the talks on
17 the mountain. I don't know who with. He came back, telling us that the
18 result was that the troops did not want to surrender and hand in their
19 weapons, and, subsequently, we continued our trip in the direction of
20 Kladanj, as I already accounted.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see P736 in
23 e-court. It is a document signed precisely by Mr. Mehmed Hajric. Thank
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You can see the decision which states what you just said:
2 "All able-bodied men from 18 to 55 years of age shall surrender
3 their weapons to the representatives of the Army of Republika Srpska in
4 the presence of UNPROFOR at the UNPROFOR base in Zepa. All able-bodied
5 men shall be registered by the ICRC and shall be guarded by the forces of
6 the VRS in the presence of UNPROFOR in Zepa until agreement on exchange
7 has been reached."
8 The second paragraph reads:
9 "Following the reaching of an agreement on exchange and exchange
10 of POWs, all able-bodied men registered by the ICRC shall be safely
11 escorted by UNPROFOR and evacuated to a territory of their free choice."
12 Roman numeral II:
13 "Urgently inform the Muslim authorities in Sarajevo about this
14 decision and carry it out immediately."
15 The document was drafted on the 27th of July, 1995.
16 As you said, it was signed by Mehmed Hajric, Hamdija Torlak and
17 Amir Imamovic. Signatory for the other side was Rajko Kusic, and it was
18 certified by Dudnjik and Mladic.
19 Is this the agreement that those from the Crisis Staff took to
20 the soldiers who were up on the mountain and then returned stating that
21 the soldiers refused to surrender?
22 A. I see this document for the first time. I have never heard of it
23 or seen it. Whether this is the document that Hajric took with him or
24 whether he conveyed VRS requests to them orally, that is something I
25 can't say.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzebo. Did you see in this decision by the
2 Zepa War Presidency that there was a provision that all those who had
3 blood on their hands were to be prosecuted, or does it only say that
4 there would be an exchange?
5 A. You're correct, it is as you said.
6 Q. Is there a possibility that you received incomplete information
7 as to what the soldiers at Mount Zepa were to be told?
8 A. You can see what the circumstances were at the time and how that
9 information was supposed to convey to them. Irrespective of its content,
10 people were distrustful and in panic. Anything that was offered then
11 would have been refused, having in mind what ensued.
12 Q. Did you know that those soldiers who were at Mount Zepa, before
13 the decision of the 27th, agreed to cross over into Serbia under certain
14 circumstances, the precondition of which was that they were not to return
15 to take part in any further fighting in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. Yes, it happened in that way. I believe there were between 7-
17 and 800 army members who crossed the Drina river and got into Serbia. I
18 don't know whether that decision was made on this day, though, or on
19 the 30th, the 31st of July, or the 1st of August when they had already
21 Q. Thank you. Did you know that General Smith testified in these
22 proceedings who said that as early as the 22nd, during the
23 London Conference, this was being discussed between the leaderships of
24 Serbia and the Bosnian government as well as Carl Bildt?
25 A. I had no occasion to follow any such information.
1 Q. Thank you. While we still have this on the screen, and later on
2 we'll ask you about the figure of those who crossed the river into Serbia
3 later. Since you said that Mr. Hajric was in civilian structures, can
4 you tell us whether he was the president of the War Presidency of the
6 A. Yes. He was the War Presidency president in the municipality of
7 Zepa when the civilians began being evacuated and Zepa fell, although I
8 can't tell you precisely how long he was in that position, whether it was
9 for half a year or a full year.
10 Q. Thank you. You can see that another War Presidency member who
11 signed this document was Torlak, Hamdija. Did you know whether he was a
12 member of the War Presidency as well?
13 A. Hamdija Torlak was the president of the Executive Board of the
14 municipal assembly in Zepa.
15 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the third person who signed it,
16 Amir Imamovic, as a civilian protection, civilian defence representative.
17 Was he a member of the Zepa War Presidency at the time?
18 A. Yes. He was commander of the Civil Protection Staff. Now,
19 whether his position was part of the Presidency, that is something I
20 don't know. He may well have been separate from the
21 Municipal Presidency.
22 Q. Thank you. During examination-in-chief, you discussed the three
23 hodzas who were in Zepa: Mr. Mehmed Hajric; then another person who had
24 not completed his studies and never returned to those studies but joined
25 the police; and there was another one who, on the 24th and 25th,
1 accompanied his family through Republika Srpska to Federation territory.
2 Do you remember who of them was the Zepa Imam?
3 A. I don't know. I presumed they alternated. I have to repeat, I
4 presume. Given the fact that there were three of them, they probably had
5 their own internal arrangement as to who was supposed to do what.
6 Q. Can you tell for the record who was the official Zepa hodza by
7 first and last name? Could it have been the person who had not completed
8 his studies, or could it have been the person who had not been in Zepa
9 before the war? Who was the appointed Zepa hodza?
10 A. I don't know which one of the three was the official one and who
11 was appointed by their board. I don't have that information.
12 Q. Yesterday, you said that Mr. Hajric was a hodza in a village near
13 Zepa. Can you tell us what village that was?
14 A. Before the war broke out, he was in the village of Podzeplje,
15 between Zepa and Han Pijesak, some 10 to 12 kilometres from the centre of
17 Q. Who was in Zepa at the time he was in Podzeplje then?
18 A. I really don't know. Before the war, as I already said, I had
19 lived in Rogatica. I do know that all three of them were refugees in
20 Zepa. Who was there in Zepa before the outbreak of the war is something
21 I don't know.
22 Q. Thank you. For the record, can you tell us the names of all
23 three hodzas who were in Zepa during the war.
24 A. Mehmed Hajric, Ramiz Dumanjic and Jusuf Jusupovic.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should wait until we have the names correctly
1 on the screen.
2 Now it's done. Please continue.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Since Mehmed Hajric was 10 kilometres from Zepa before the war,
6 since Jusuf Jusupovic was still studying, is there a possibility that it
7 was Ramiz Dumanjic who was the Imam, or hodza, in Zepa? Or was it
8 someone else? And when did that change occur?
9 A. There is no possibility for Ramiz Dumanjic to have been that.
10 Because, in June or July of 1992, he arrived in Zepa. Who had been there
11 before him is something I don't know.
12 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Hajric hold the position within the
13 War Presidency as a cleric?
14 A. I don't know what the length of his last tenure was. But it is
15 true that Mr. Hajric was, for a time, president of the War Presidency.
16 Q. Thank you. Since we can see here that he signed as a member of
17 the War Presidency, or, rather, its president and then we have Torlak
18 underneath, could perhaps Torlak, then, know whether Hajric was the hodza
19 or the War Presidency president, because it seems from this that he was
20 his boss?
21 A. Well, if they ever discussed the topic and if he had that
22 information, he may assist you, but I can't.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at what Mr. Torlak said
25 on the 30th of August, 2010, during these proceedings at page 4543,
1 lines 14 through 22.
2 I quote:
3 "As far as I know, Mr. Hajric was not a cleric in Zepa. He was a
4 hodza but not a religious leader. Before the war, he had worked in
5 another village near Zepa. There had been a hodza in Zepa who was there
6 during the war performing that function. As far as I know, he," and he
7 means Hajric, "was a hodza in Podzeplje ..." When the war broke out, he
8 came to Zepa.
9 In any case, he was not the Zepa hodza. Because, during the war,
10 it was another person who was in that position. That person had been
11 there before. Simply put, Hajric, at the time, did not perform that job.
12 I asked him this: While he was president of the War Presidency,
13 did he also perform certain functions as a hodza. And then, on
14 page 4544, he said, no, he never did. This is in lines 2 and 3. That
15 was his vocation, though. But prior to 1992, he had been a hodza in a
16 different location.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can we believe what Hamdija Torlak said, since he was the
19 municipal government president in Zepa and a member of the
20 War Presidency, just like Hajric?
21 A. Since he had more contact with Hajric, he probably knows more
22 about it. I can only repeat what I already said. I don't know how the
23 three of them organised themselves and how they arranged their work, as
24 well as what position each of them held in the Muslim community board.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzebo.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at D11, page 26.
2 It is actually D111. Thank you. Page 26.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Dzebo, before us is a list of those who crossed over into
5 Serbia from Mount Zepa.
6 Please look at number 26.
7 A. On my list, I have numbers 32 to 62.
8 Q. Well, we'll wait for e-court.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Number 26, please. I hope we'll
10 have it in English, too.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. It says Meho Omer Dzebo, year of birth, 1959, Zepa. Who is
13 Meho Dzebo, father's name Omer?
14 A. We mentioned that person earlier. Meho, son of Omer. We share
15 the same first and last name. We used to be neighbours.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzebo. Do you know of his whereabouts and what
17 happened with him?
18 A. He left the camp and went to the US. That's where he is now.
19 Q. You mean to say the reception centre for POWs in Serbia or the
20 one in Rogatica?
21 A. No, no, the one in Serbia, in Sljivovica.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it's time for the second break. We
24 should adjourn and resume at 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue your
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Dzebo, on page 57, line 23 of the transcript, Mr. Elderkin
7 asked you --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ...
9 interpretation at the moment.
10 I didn't receive any interpretation at the moment.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It seems to be better now. Now it's working.
13 Thank you.
14 Mr. Tolimir, please, again, your question.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Dzebo, on page 57, line 23, you were asked what you heard
18 about weapons being brought by helicopter to Zepa. And you said on
19 page 58, in line 2, that you heard there had been four or five flights.
20 Can you tell us anything more about that? Thank you.
21 A. As far as I know, this was a supply of light infantry weapons and
22 ammunition. Whether there was anything else, I do not know.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems there is a
25 technical problem. Mr. Tolimir has not heard the answer in his
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Usher will try to assist.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise. It was my
4 mistake because I pressed a wrong button.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did you hear more flights than the number of flights you have
7 mentioned, that is, four to five? Did you hear about more than that?
8 A. I don't think there was more than five.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a look at
11 D67. Thank you. We'll now see.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This is a document from the intelligence administration of the
14 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina drafted on the 13th of July, after
15 withdrawal from Srebrenica. And the title is: An interim report,
16 submitted by Rasim Delic to the president of the Presidency of the
17 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic. And he tells him -
18 please let us have a look at the end - "Dear Mr. President," and then the
19 second bulletin point after the words "Zepa," it says:
20 "17 helicopter flights were carried out, in each of which a
21 helicopter was hit."
22 And then there is a table showing what was transported in the
23 helicopters of the weapons and ammunition, what was brought to Zepa?
24 Can we please show the table which is on the next page in e-court
25 so that you would have a chance to see that. Here it is, the materiel
1 and equipment for Zepa and Srebrenica and the total numbers. You can see
2 the total number in English. Thank you.
3 Can you please tell us whether you know anything about arming
4 going on from Tuzla to Zepa, and then from Zepa to Srebrenica by
5 aircraft? Thank you.
6 A. As I already said, there were four to five helicopter flights by
7 which weapons and ammunition were delivered to Zepa. Then it was
8 probably transported on the ground to Srebrenica.
9 And as for 17 flights, that probably refers to other zones where
10 there were deliveries, because I cannot believe that so much was
11 delivered to Zepa.
12 Q. Thank you. In that case, we have to have a look at what is
13 written here above this column in the table. It is listed specifically
14 what was delivered in terms of materiel and technical equipment to
15 Srebrenica and Zepa. These are just these two places and we have an
16 overview here.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the remaining
18 part of the table in e-court. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question in relation to this.
20 The page before in English, please, and the respective page in
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, I'm looking at the table, and I think I'll
23 probably address this question for clarification to General Tolimir to
24 explain for me of these assets on this table which are -- which can be
25 described as light or heavy military equipment. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In number 5, it could
2 be so. Also in number 7. Also under number 10. Number 11 as well, and
3 so on. Everything that is above 60-millimetre calibre, in terms of
4 shells and mines. Everything that is above 7.62 millimetres in terms of
5 rifle bullets. All of that would be considered heavy weapons.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please show the
9 last page of this document so that we can see that it was signed by the
10 chief of staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, army
11 General Rasim Delic.
12 Here it is.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And therefore, my question would be this: Do you know where the
15 Heliodrom in Zepa was situated?
16 A. It was on the Zepa mountain, at the Igrisnik locality.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you hear all the flights to Zepa flying above the
18 Zepa mountain?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. As the flights were carried out at night, is there a
21 possibility that you didn't hear more than five or six?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. [Microphone not activated]
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation.
1 Q. My question is this: Could the members of UNPROFOR hear the sound
2 of the helicopters, and was the location of the Heliodrom concealed from
3 them, as well as the operation of delivering weapons in this way? Thank
5 A. Two UNPROFOR check-points were in the immediate vicinity of the
6 Heliodrom. They were perhaps a couple of kilometres away, both of them.
7 Q. Thank you. Now that we are talking about UNPROFOR, did UNPROFOR
8 also provide weapons to the Zepa Brigade of the BH Army? Thank you.
9 A. I am not aware of that. The only thing that UNPROFOR did when
10 the final attack on Zepa was carried out, UNPROFOR returned the weapons
11 that had been handed in to them in May and June 1993, after the
12 demilitarised zone was declared in Zepa.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us now please have a look at
15 D55, page 19, paragraph 71.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you just told us that UNPROFOR returned the
17 weapons that had been handed in to them in May and June 1993.
18 What does it mean, "returned"? To whom? To whom did UNPROFOR
19 return the weapons?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were returned to the brigade
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Tolimir.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We can see paragraph 1. I will quote:
4 "On the 15th of July, major escalation of the situation in the
5 enclave was reported, as soldiers of the 285th Brigade surrounded and
6 blocked UKRCOY base and some OPs and presented Ukrainians with an
7 ultimatum to surrender their weapons. Communication with OP-6 and OP-5
8 was lost. BiH soldiers blocked the roads between the UKRCOY base, and
9 OP-5 and OP-9 were blocked by wood and rocks. About 100 soldiers also
10 surrounded the compound and radio station and threatened to open fire, if
11 weapons were not surrendered."
12 Excuse me:
13 "The UKRCOY commander surrendered to BH soldiers, some weapons
14 and ammunition."
15 And my question is this: Do you remember this incident of the
16 15th of July and did UNPROFOR provide a certain quantity much weapons at
17 that point to the 285th Brigade of the Army of BiH in Zepa? Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you should tell the witness about
19 this document you were reading from. You just have one page of this
20 lengthy document. You should give him information so that he can better
21 comment on it.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please show the
23 first page of this document in e-court so that the witness could
24 familiarise himself with it. Thank you.
25 This is an expert report of a Prosecutor expert,
1 Viktor Bezruchenko which is called: "The fall the Zepa." And it is an
2 account of military events. And he wrote in the report what I quoted and
3 read out to you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may return to my answer, I
6 cannot remember the date which you mentioned, whether that happened on
7 that specific date or not, but I already said that I am aware that the
8 weapons which had been handed in to UNPROFOR for keeping in May and June
9 1993 were returned. Whether all of it or not, that's, again, something I
10 don't know, nor am I aware of any details concerning this.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a look at
14 page 20 of this document, D55, paragraph 73. Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Bezruchenko stated the following. I quote:
17 "The report corresponds" -- this report is consistent with
18 UNPROFOR Sector Sarajevo report dated the 16th of July, 1995. According
19 to the report:
20 "BiH army soldiers surrounded three Ukrainian OPs and threatening
21 the OP personnel, captured their weapons and ammunition. At 1100 hours,
22 the VRS launched an infantry attack supported by tanks and artillery
23 between OP-1 and OP-8. At 1656, the ABiH surrounded OP-5 personnel,
24 demanding their weapons and equipment. By the close of that day, the VRS
25 reached OP-2," it's the one in Boksanica, "and threatened to kill the
1 Ukrainian soldiers in case of NATO air presence above their positions,
2 the positions of the VRS."
3 My question is this: Did you have any knowledge about the units
4 of the 285th Zepa Brigade, commanded by Avdo Palic, seized weapons from
5 the Ukrainian Battalion, as Mr. Bezruchenko notes in this report,
6 paragraph 73, in which he quotes a report from the Sector Sarajevo which
7 noted this on the 16th of July after it was reported from Zepa? Thank
9 A. I can neither refute nor confirm these allegations, as I do not
10 know anything about this.
11 Q. [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please show paragraph 94
14 of the same document.
15 We can see it now -- or not yet. Ninety-four, we can see it. I
16 quote paragraph 94 of the document, D55. The fall of Zepa:
17 "The defenders of Zepa saw the negotiations between their
18 authorities and the VRS as a sign of an inevitable fall of the enclave.
19 In this situation, they no longer cared for co-operation with UNPROFOR
20 and did not need UNPROFOR any longer. In an attempt to seize UNPROFOR's
21 weapons, on the 20th of July, the Army of BiH attacked the compound of
22 the Ukrainian company with heavy machine-gun fire and hand-grenades. The
23 second floor of the building of the Ukrainian company was hit with a
24 heavy weapon, which destroyed the first aid station and the medicine
25 stock. The fighting for the enclave continued," and so on and so forth.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you please tell us, what was the distance between your police
3 station and the UNPROFOR base? Thank you.
4 A. The distance was 150 to 200 metres at the most.
5 Q. Did you see or hear this attack which occurred on the 20th of
6 July, in which Mr. Bezruchenko discusses, as an expert witness for the
7 Prosecution, in his report?
8 A. I never heard or saw that because I said that just before the
9 offensive I had an infection and at this time I was already at home. We
10 are talking about the 20th of July here. And I was already 4 kilometres
11 away from that place.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would kindly ask both speakers not to overlap
13 but to pause between question and answer, because it is quite difficult
14 for the interpreters to get everything if you immediately start with your
15 answer. Thank you.
16 Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Dzebo, in line 63 -- sorry, page 63, you mentioned how the
20 first convoy left Zepa for Kladanj and that Avdo Palic was on it. You
21 said that it was for that reason that the convoy went through without
23 Then, on page 65, line 2, you said:
24 "All following convoys saw people taken off buses."
25 My question is this: Was anyone taken off a bus on the 25th or
1 the 26th, and can you tell us those person's names and what happened with
3 A. Following the convoy, accompanied by Avdo Palic, the evacuation
4 of civilians from Zepa took another five days -- two days. The convoy
5 which reached Tisca in the evening on the penultimate day of evacuation
6 is when a number of elderly people were taken off buses. I believe I
7 said that yesterday. They spent the night there and awaited the last
8 convoy the next morning, where I was. Then we, the wounded, were taken
9 off, as well as a number of other elderly people.
10 As for any specific numbers of people of that evening and the
11 next morning, I don't know. I just know that in total there were 28
12 elderly people who were taken off the convoys, off the buses.
13 Q. Thank you. Were those 28 elderly people accommodated with you in
14 the reception centre Rasadnik in Rogatica, and did any of them get hurt
15 or killed?
16 A. They were all in the camp in Rogatica. They were all exchanged
17 and came out alive.
18 Q. Thank you. Apologies to the interpreters.
19 Were they stopped because the Army of BiH did not accept to
20 exchange their prisoners from Lisace whereas the VRS released all wounded
21 and civilians from Zepa?
22 A. I can only repeat what I've already said. I don't wish to
23 discuss any reasons. I'm not familiar with them, and these are your
24 allegations. Whether they're true, that is something I cannot comment
1 Q. Thank you. While you were in the camp, that is, in the reception
2 centre for POWs, did Hajric tell you why the prisoners were held at
3 Boksanica and then returned to Rogatica? Did he also tell you that
4 General Smith participated in the talks on prisoner exchange, and did he
5 discuss that topic with you at all?
6 A. I don't remember him telling me anything. He may have said
7 something to the other detainees, but I'm not familiar with it.
8 Q. Thank you. While we're on the topic of POWs who were in the
9 reception centre in Rogatica, can you tell us whether Delic, Hamdija, was
10 with you?
11 A. He was not with us.
12 Q. Do you know anything about him? Was he from Zepa?
13 A. I know Hamdija. He is not from Zepa; he is from Rogatica. But
14 during the war, he was a refugee in Zepa.
15 Q. Thank you. So he was not taken into custody when you were, and
16 he was not there when you were in Rogatica?
17 A. No, I didn't see him there.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us anything about
19 Enver [as interpreted] Habibovic? Do you know him, and was he with you
20 in the reception centre Rasadnik in Rogatica?
21 A. I don't know the person. He was never with us.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the record, the name should be
24 Selvir Habibovic. Thank you.
25 Thank you, Aleksander.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you know Mehan Oric? Was he with you in the reception centre
3 in Rogatica at the time you were there?
4 A. I don't know that person either. He was not with us.
5 Q. Thank you. Have you heard of Enver Feric? Was he with you in
6 the detention unit and was he exchanged at the same time as you?
7 A. I don't know that person either. He was never with us.
8 Q. Thank you. When you were in the detention unit, was Avdo Palic
9 with you?
10 A. He was not with us. I said yesterday that I saw him in the
11 UNPROFOR base in Zepa for the last time.
12 Q. Did you hear anything about when he went missing, in what month
13 and what circumstances?
14 A. No, I did not. I don't know anything about his disappearance.
15 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the others during your testimony.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have the document
17 about POWs, marked P1434. Thank you.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. You were shown this during examination-in-chief. This is
20 Zoran Carkic's document, who was in the organ of the security department
21 of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade. He drafted it on the 30th of July.
22 We have a list of all detainees in the centre Rasadnik in
23 Rogatica where you were. We have a total of 45 people. Under number 45,
24 we have Atlantida. Can you see that?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have it shown to
1 the witness.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only see up to number 25.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next page in e-court, please.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You looked at number 45, Atlantida, in a safe place at another
7 Did the Prosecutor ever tell you who this Atlantida is?
8 A. I believe it to be Avdo Palic.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page of the
11 document, which is two pages following the list of POWs in the reception
12 centre. Thank you.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Under problems, or issues, we see the following. I will quote
15 from the document:
16 "During evacuation of the civilian population from Zepa, carried
17 out in the morning of the 28th of July, and separation of the military
18 conscripts from the group of Muslims, in the area of the elementary
19 school on the Tisca-Kladanj road, during the control and search, money
20 was taken from the following Muslims ..."
21 We have their names and amount, ranging from 30 to 700
22 German marks, totalling less -- less than 2.000 German marks.
23 Then it says:
24 "The above mentioned Muslims complained to General Tolimir,
25 saying that it was done by men under the command of a small man with
1 black hair, who wore a black beret and was limping.
2 "It is obvious that this is a Lieutenant Matic, who, at the
3 moment of separation of the Muslims, came to the spot and carried out
4 searches in the school and in the school compound.
5 "General Tolimir demands that this case be investigated and money
7 This was drafted by Zoran Carkic.
8 Can we see from the document that the Main Staff was informed of
9 this problem as well, as we can see on page 1? You correctly stated
10 yesterday that some of the POWs were robbed.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You went through this document with the Prosecutor; hence, I
13 won't dwell on it any further.
14 I just wanted to ask you this: Did all POWs from the list who
15 were in the reception centre in Rogatica get exchanged with you, save for
16 the persons under number 1, 3, and others you mentioned when you said
17 that they were not exchanged and that they were taken from the reception
18 centre Rasadnik in Rogatica in mid-August?
19 Can you tell us who was it that was not exchanged on this list
20 and what is their number on the list?
21 A. The person number 1, 3 and 13. They were not exchanged. The
22 rest were, up to number 21, as far as I can see on my screen.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the next page in both languages?
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Was everyone up to number 45 exchanged?
1 A. Up to number 44. They were all exchanged, as I have already
3 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what happened with the people under
4 numbers 44 and 45, Atlantida?
5 A. I don't know anything about the person number 45.
6 As for person number 44, Husein Cocalic, he was exchanged with
8 As for Esad Cocalic, number 13, he was not exchanged.
9 Q. Can you tell us for the record when he was seen for the last time
10 at the reception centre for POWs, Rasadnik? Can you tell us, if not a
11 date, then perhaps a month?
12 A. As I said already, on the 5th of September, 1995, in the evening,
13 around quarter to 11.00, Petar Despot, aka Pero, deputy camp warden, took
14 him out of the room, and that's the last time we saw him in the Rasadnik
16 Q. Thank you. Let us look again at your statement again, 1D785.
17 Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once we see the first page, I would
19 kindly ask that the penultimate page be shown in e-court. Thank you.
20 Page 5, please, of the statement.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this is now D273.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. In the last paragraph that we can see, which is on page 6,
25 paragraph 3 in the English, you discuss measures that were taken against
1 those who mistreated you, if such mistreatment was reported. You here
2 mention specifically a case of mistreatment while you were at Borike.
3 Can you tell the Chamber whether, after the incident was
4 reported, the manager was replaced; and were measures taken against him
5 by the commander in charge of the POW reception centre Rasadnik in
7 A. Yes. Following Mladen Vitomir's intervention, who was the farm
8 manager, Ujic, Nenad, the policeman, was removed. He no longer appeared
9 as a police guard in the prison building. A new policeman was brought
10 in, whose name I don't recall.
11 In any case, Ujic was no longer there.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzebo, for all the answers you provided to Defence
13 questions. Thank you for having come here. We wish you a safe journey
14 back to your home and family. And may God bless you. This is all from
15 me. Thank you, yet again.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Defence concludes
17 the examination of this witness. We have no further questions of him.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
19 Mr. Elderkin, do you have re-examination?
20 MR. ELDERKIN: I do, Your Honours. I would estimate I could do
21 it in ten minutes and I don't know if that's acceptable for the Bench and
22 for our interpreters. I can try to be as fast as possible. I only have
23 a couple of documents to use, and I have the references to the
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the indulgence, especially of the
4 interpreters, they did a hard work today, again, and the court recorder,
5 we should try to finish with the witness today. We have heard he has to
6 go back to his home possibly today.
7 You should continue but try to finish in ten minutes, as you
8 indicated, Mr. Elderkin.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: I'm grateful, Mr. President.
10 Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:
11 Q. And now good afternoon again, Mr. Dzebo.
12 Sir, you were asked at page 61 of today's transcript about the
13 army, the Zepa Bosnian Army members who crossed over into Serbia. And
14 you were asked the following question by General Tolimir.
15 "Did you know that those soldiers who were at Mount Zepa before
16 the decision of the 27th agreed to cross over into Serbia under certain
17 circumstances, the precondition of which was that they were not to return
18 to take part in any further fighting in Bosnia-Herzegovina?"
20 "Yes, it happened in that way. I believe there were between 7-
21 and 800 army members who crossed the Drina river and got into Serbia."
22 Then your answer continues.
23 If I understand your answer to say that you have knowledge of an
24 agreement between the Muslim Army and Serbia, what was the basis for
25 saying that in your answer? Were you aware at that time; or do you know
1 now of any prior agreement between the Muslim Army and Serbia?
2 A. When I said yes, I thought that a crossing of a certain number of
3 members of the Army of BiH into Serbia happened. I did not imply that
4 there was agreement. Throughout the time I spent in Zepa, I never
5 received any information that any sort of agreement was made concerning
6 their crossing over in Serbia. The first information that some members
7 of the BiH Army crossed over from Zepa into Serbia, I heard at the camp
8 in Rogatica. One of the policemen told us that perhaps in the media or
9 in some other way, they heard the information that some people had
10 crossed over there. That was the first information I heard about that
12 Let me repeat once again: I do not know at all that there were
13 negotiations conducted on this subject and that any sort of agreement had
14 been reached before the crossing itself took place.
15 Q. I'll set out the basis of the next question I want to ask to
16 refer to the cross-examination which is the rule for asking questions on
17 re-direct examination.
18 You were asked at page 37 of the transcript about
19 General Tolimir's presence at the Rasadnik camp after the 27th of July.
20 And you said you never saw him again after he was at the camp on the
21 first day.
22 You were asked then questions about interrogation by members of
23 the State Security Service. This is at page 47. And you mentioned the
24 name of an inspector who introduced himself as Vojinovic.
25 And then page 52, you were asked about a criminal report which
1 was introduced as Exhibit D92, and this was a criminal report dated the
2 23rd of August, 1995.
3 On the basis of that line, or those separate lines of
4 questioning, I wanted to explore with you the extent to which
5 General Tolimir was informed of events within -- or activities that were
6 happening within the prison camp and also to explore the process by which
7 the interviews took place and evidence was gathered about supposed prior
8 criminal activity by the Muslim -- members of the Muslim population from
10 MR. ELDERKIN: And, Your Honours, if that's a sufficient basis
11 for asking questions, I would ask to use document 7401. This is one of
12 the ones that isn't on our 65 ter list, but it is relevant to the
13 subjects that I've just outlined and which came up on cross-examination.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was this document used in cross-examination
15 or ...
16 MR. ELDERKIN: 7401 has not been used in cross-examination. It's
17 an additional document, but I believe that its contents are relevant to
18 the questions, as I've indicated.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First you should show it, then we can consider
21 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I understand it hasn't been loaded
22 into e-court. I do have hard copies in English and B/C/S. But I see
23 that the ELMO appears to have ... to be unavailable now.
24 What I propose is to show the B/C/S on the ELMO and then, where
25 necessary, I can read from the English translation.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is a very poor copy. We hardly can see
3 MR. ELDERKIN: I don't know if the brightness can be adjusted at
4 all, to be less dark would help.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That seems to be better.
6 Please tell us what is it about.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, this, as can be seen in the heading,
8 is a VRS Main Staff document from the security and intelligence sector.
9 It's dated 14th of August of 1995. We can see that it is marked "IKM 1,
10 Kula" and beneath that "n/l personally." That indicates, I understand
11 from the translation, to General Tolimir. And below that the title is
12 "Prisoners from the Zepa enclave." And then the -- I can continue with
13 the body text, Your Honours, but that indicates the key points. And if
14 we see the last page, it's signed by Ljubisa Beara, who, in this
15 instance, is signing it as naval captain rather than colonel. And you
16 can see there it's got a stamp over the signature block and the -- a
17 handwritten signature.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have an objection if
19 Mr. Elderkin is allowed to use this document?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
21 no objections, as this is the first time I see this document as I was not
22 at the location where he was sent. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please, Mr. Elderkin.
24 MR. ELDERKIN:
25 Q. First of all, sir, if we can look at -- back at the first page of
1 the document. And under bullet point 1, if you can read the text there
2 to yourself. At the same time, I'll read this out from my English
4 Point 1:
5 "Since it has been agreed with organs of the Republic of Serbia
6 that soldiers of the Balija army from Zepa who have fled to Serbia will
7 be extradited to us when we have compiled for each individual valid
8 criminal law documentation" --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please stop for a moment. It disappeared from
10 the screen. There's a technical problem.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should press the video button, and then we can
13 see it.
14 And you may continue.
15 Mr. Tolimir, do you see the document?
16 Yes, please continue.
17 MR. ELDERKIN:
18 Q. "... documentation of their having committed crimes against
19 international law and humanity. It is it necessary to form a team from
20 the VRS security organs, RDB organs and the MUP crime police
21 administration which shall obtain such documentation by questioning
22 captured Balijas from Zepa."
23 MR. ELDERKIN: Go onto the next page, please, to see the item
24 numbered 4. I'm sorry, it's still on the same.
25 Q. Number 4:
1 "The prisoners from Zepa who are currently in Rogatica (43) would
2 also be transferred to Srbinje KPD for questioning and to obtain evidence
3 of KD committed by their fellow tribesmen (Balijas)."
4 Sir, I understand from your testimony earlier that you were
5 questioned, but were you ever transferred to Srbinje or do you know of
6 any of your fellow prisoners were transferred there?
7 A. When they mentioned Srbinje, they mean Foca. None of the group
8 of prisoners in Rogatica were transferred there. Everyone remained in
9 Rogatica until the end.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, it may take a moment, but I
12 understand that this document has now been loaded into e-court. It may
13 take 30 seconds to switch but I have a couple more places to look at. I
14 think it's easier for everyone if we stop with the ELMO.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we press the e-court button. Thank you.
16 It's on the screen now. Is there a translation available? Yes, it is.
17 If you could carry on.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could go through to page 4 of the English
19 translation and perhaps -- I think the next page in the B/C/S. Yes,
20 indeed, the next page, please, in the B/C/S. English, page 4. The
21 B/C/S, if we could focus on the text from point 8 downwards, capturing
22 that bullet point and the list of names down underneath.
23 Q. Sir, point 8:
24 "Until investigations are complete, prohibit access to the
25 State Commission for Prisoner Exchange, members of the ICRC and UNHCR,
1 and to members of other humanitarian organisations."
2 Sir, did you receive any visits in the weeks after
3 14th of August, 1995 by the ICRC? When was the next visit after that
5 A. The first visit after that time took place in October. I was
6 already in Borike at the time and working there. Between that time and
7 October, there were no visits by the Red Cross.
8 Q. Under point 10, there is a list of names and it reads:
9 "The following persons shall be in the investigations team."
10 Number 6:
11 "Milan Vojinovic from the RDB."
12 Do you recognise that name?
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't receive interpretation.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said ... I already said
16 that the person introduced himself only as Vojinovic. He didn't say his
17 first name. The person I gave the statement to introduced himself as
18 Inspector Vojinovic from the State Security Service of Republika Srpska.
19 He just told me his last name, not the first name. Whether this was the
20 same person as the one listed in the document, this is something I'm not
21 certain about. So it is very difficult for me to confirm it.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd ask to have the document admitted. Then I
23 have just one more I'd like to look at. I realise I'm a few minutes
24 already longer than I said I would be.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was afraid of that, Mr. Elderkin. I don't see
1 an objection by the Defence. It will be admitted into evidence.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7401 shall be
3 assigned Exhibit P2256. Thank you.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: The next exhibit I would like to look at is
5 65 ter 2662. And my questions are based on cross-examination at page 44,
6 where the witness was asked about Esad Cocalic going missing from the
7 reception centre. Page 45, again, the question:
8 "Mr. Dzebo, can you tell us whether you know if any other
9 detainees who were with you in the reception centre Rasadnik in Rogatica
10 went missing while you were there as a POW in 1995 and 1996?"
11 And, again, I believe this document is relevant to this issue of
12 persons who disappeared. It's a Drina Corps security department document
13 from the 20th of September, 1995.
14 Q. And, sir, as you can see from the heading, it's sent to the
15 chiefs of OB organs for various Drina Corps brigades.
16 I'd like to look, please, under point 4. And in the English
17 translation, that's on page 2.
18 So point 4 reads:
19 "A special problem so far has been the case when a captured
20 Balija (from whichever unit of the ABiH) after being registered by the
21 Red Cross or any other international humanitarian organisation, escapes
22 or is killed while attempting escape. In most of these cases, the
23 incidents were not sufficiently documented by way of witness statements
24 and on-site criminal investigation documents. Or to collect other
25 documents which confirm that it is not an unlawful killing of a prisoner
1 of war. In all future cases, when a prisoner of war escapes or is killed
2 while attempting escape or is killed in a minefield, it is necessary to
3 compose a correct criminal investigation document which is to be kept in
4 the archive of the military police unit or security organ while the
5 relevant military prosecutor and investigative judge of the military
6 court are to be informed about the incident."
7 And at the bottom we can see - again, one more page for the
8 English - it is signed by a Colonel Vujadin Popovic of the Drina Corps.
9 Sir, were there any investigative steps that you were aware of
10 taken to investigate the disappearances of the men who you saw or learnt
11 were in the Rasadnik prison camp with you but were not exchanged with you
12 in January of 1996?
13 A. No, I'm not familiar with any such steps. As of the moment we
14 stopped seeing them, everybody stopped talking about them. They were not
15 mentioned at all by anyone anymore.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: And I thank everyone, especially the interpreters,
18 for their indulgence.
19 I would ask to admit this document into evidence and then I have
20 no further questions.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have an objection?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. No
23 objection. We are fine with having both documents admitted, especially
24 because I had not seen them before.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document on the screen will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2662 shall be
2 assigned Exhibit P2257. Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this
5 concludes now your testimony here in this trial. Thank you very much
6 that you were able to come to The Hague again and to provide us with your
7 knowledge about the relevant events. Thank you very much. We wish you a
8 safe journey back. Thank you, again.
9 We have to adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow
10 morning at 9.00 in this courtroom, number III.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.10 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st of June,
14 2011, at 9.00 a.m.