1 Monday, 4 July 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
6 At the outset of today's hearing, the Chamber would like to deal
7 with some procedural matters.
8 First, the Chamber notes that the Prosecution has filed its
9 notification of withdrawal of its motion concerning scheduling of
10 Prosecution Rule 98 bis oral arguments on the 30th of June, 2011. This
11 is hereby put on the record.
12 Secondly, we are now very close to the end of the Prosecution's
13 case, and the Trial Chamber needs to plan the next phase of the trial, as
14 far as possible. Therefore, we would like the Prosecution to file a
15 schedule for the remaining witnesses.
16 The Trial Chamber notes that the confidential supplemental motion
17 for leave to amend its 65 ter exhibit list and witness list, filed on the
18 14th of June, contains a request for the addition of two witnesses to the
19 65 ter witness list, and that this motion is still pending because we are
20 awaiting B/C/S translation and then the response by the accused. So the
21 schedule to be filed may need to be revised, in light of the decision of
22 the Trial Chamber on this motion. Nonetheless, it will be helpful if the
23 Prosecution files already a schedule of the remainder of the witnesses it
24 now knows that it will be calling.
25 May I ask the Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey, when you will be in a
1 position to file the schedule?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: This afternoon, Mr. President. I, of course,
3 knew that that would be an interest for the Trial Chamber, and, of
4 course, it's our interest -- everyone's interest, so I can go over it
5 briefly to give you an idea. And I know Mr. Thayer is working on the
6 filing, and even -- and an e-mail before that, so you can see it. But
7 this last week, we have had a chance to, well, either get or not get
8 witnesses, so I can give you briefly right now -- it won't take long so
9 you can see where we are.
10 It would probably be best to go into private session just because
11 I will mention some witnesses' names, which I think is always helpful.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We go into private session. I would appreciate
13 such an update.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 15987-15988 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to raise two matters before you get
23 the floor, Mr. McCloskey.
24 We understand, from your submission just in private session, that
25 you will be able to file such a schedule this afternoon, and we will be
1 happy to receive it at least by tomorrow. Thank you.
2 The Chamber would also request the Prosecution to -- I would like
3 to put it in a different way. Was that already a withdrawal of certain
4 witnesses from the 65 ter witness list or will it be part of your
5 submission to be expected this afternoon?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that would be part of the submission.
7 I think it's the simplest way to do it.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 At this point in time, I would like to ask you, Mr. Tolimir: The
10 Trial Chamber would like to receive information on your future intentions
11 to assist us in planning, if you are in a position to provide this
12 information. As I said, we are now very close to the end of the
13 Prosecution's case. Are you able to say whether you will be making
14 submissions pursuant to Rule 98 bis, or will you be able to do that at a
15 later stage? And if so, when can we expect that?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please move the microphone. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I greet all those present, and may
19 today's procedure be conducted in accordance with God's will and not
20 mine. I would like to greet everyone, because I haven't seen any of you
21 in a while. That includes the OTP, the Defence, and the Trial Chamber.
22 I can say immediately after the end of the Prosecution case, the
23 Defence will be ready to respond pursuant to Rule 98 bis, but that's
24 following the break and following the end of the OTP's case. And we also
25 shall be requiring some time to prepare. We don't have time to prepare
1 while we're still busy hearing and cross-examining witnesses. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To avoid any misunderstanding, it's not a
3 question to respond pursuant to Rule 98 bis, but if you will submit a
4 motion according to Rule 98 bis. It's up to you to decide if you will
5 file such a submission, oral submission in court, or not. And this is
6 the question I wanted to put to you, if we can expect that or not.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.
8 The Defence would like that to be in writing, if the Chamber so
9 decides and, indeed, allows. Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First, I would like to draw your attention to the
11 wording of Rule 98 bis. It refers solely to oral submissions. I would
12 understand that you prepare it in writing and then present it to the
13 Chamber orally by reading it, but this is the wording of the Rule,
15 Again, I would like to ask you: Can you help us with any
16 information, if you will be, and whether you will be, and, if so, when
17 you will be in a position to tell us if there will be any 98 bis
18 submission by the Defence?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 We shall certainly abide by your instructions and put forward our
21 position orally, once we have it prepared. We can do that immediately
22 after the Prosecution case is over. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That helps, and we
24 understood your position.
25 I would like now to turn to an additional matter.
1 I would like to take the opportunity to remind the parties that
2 there are currently many exhibits in evidence which only have draft
3 translations. The Chamber invites both parties to up-load the final
4 translations of the exhibits, once they are received, and to inform the
5 Registry and the Chamber once this has taken place. By the end of this
6 case, there should be no more draft translations in evidence.
7 Mr. McCloskey, you wanted to raise another matter?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It was related to the
9 previous discussion.
22 And then I just -- as I said, Ms. Stewart has given me, and I
23 have a list of about 25 translations, if you would like me to read that
24 into the record.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To save some time, I would propose a different
2 You have provided the Chamber, by e-mail, with this list of 25
3 exhibits now with a translation into B/C/S or English. There's only one
4 problem. The 15th exhibit, P2346, was MFI'd not only pending
5 translation, but also for further authentication, so in that case this
6 will not be admitted now, but depends on the further development of our
7 case. All others should be -- there should be a list on the record by
8 internal memorandum to save some time and possible misunderstandings. I
9 would like to instruct the Registrar to provide the parties and the
10 Chamber with such a list.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Any other matters to be raised? It's not the
14 The witness should be brought in, please.
15 Mr. Gajic.
16 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we just please
17 go into private session for a moment? Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 15994 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
11 The witness should be brought in now.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please switch on the microphones.
14 Good afternoon, sir. Welcome to the courtroom. Our apologies
15 for the delayed start. We had to deal with some procedural matters.
16 Would you now please read aloud the affirmation on the card which
17 is shown to you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: MILE MICIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make
23 yourself comfortable.
24 First, the Prosecution, during their examination-in-chief, will
25 put questions to you.
1 Mr. Elderkin, you have the floor.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, thank you, and good afternoon to
3 Your Honours and everyone else in the courtroom.
4 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
5 Q. And to you, Witness. Could I ask, as we discussed when we met
6 yesterday, that if it seems like we're going too fast, to try to speak at
7 a pace that the interpreters can keep up with.
8 And first of all, sir, please, could you say your full name?
9 A. Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, General. Good
10 afternoon to the Prosecution.
11 My name is Mile Micic. And do you want me to say anything else?
12 Q. And your father's name, please?
13 A. My father's name is Marko.
14 Q. What's your date of birth?
15 A. 3rd November 1973. I was born in Zenica municipality in Bosnia
16 and Herzegovina.
17 Q. And you consider yourself to be of Serb ethnicity?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Sir, have you had a chance this weekend to look over the
20 transcript of an interview that you gave to Prosecution investigators in
21 November of 2009?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you re-read your interview, did you identify any of your
24 answers that were not correctly transcribed?
25 A. There were a lot of grammatical errors. There were sentences
1 that did not convey the proper sense, but that was, more or less, that.
2 Q. And apart from those grammatical errors, are all the answers that
3 you gave during that interview accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
4 A. I did not understand your question. Could you please repeat?
5 Q. Are the answers recorded in the transcript accurate, in terms of
6 the substantive information that you gave during the interview?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you answer truthfully the questions that you were asked
9 during that interview?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'd like to ask briefly about your education and background, to
12 give the Court some sense of what happened in your life, before we move
13 to 1995.
14 First, could you tell us, briefly, what level of education you
16 A. Elementary and secondary education in my native municipality.
17 The secondary school I attended was the School for Electricians, and that
18 was what I completed before 1981 -- 1991. Then the war started. My
19 education was thus interrupted, and I don't have any military education.
20 Q. And what's your current occupation, sir?
21 A. Currently, I'm a repairman. I repair electrical appliances in a
22 factory, or, rather, electrical machinery.
23 Q. Did you ever perform military service?
24 A. I didn't serve in the former JNA. I did my compulsory military
25 service in the VRS.
1 Q. What date did you start your military service in the VRS?
2 A. On the 8th of August, 1992.
3 Q. Did you serve in any particular VRS unit?
4 A. It was the 67th Communications Regiment.
5 Q. And did you receive any specialist training when you joined the
7 A. I did not understand your question.
8 Q. Did you receive any specialist training beyond the training given
9 to every soldier who joined the VRS? Did you learn any specialist skill
10 or were you simply taught how to wear a uniform, to march, to fire a gun,
11 et cetera?
12 A. Besides the basic skills, I also had some training in
13 communications specific to that regiment. That training was very short
14 and didn't last more than a month.
15 Q. What place were you when you received that training in the
16 Communications Regiment?
17 A. That training was carried out in the Communications Regiment, and
18 its command was in Crna Rijeka.
19 Q. After you completed that training, did you continue to serve at
20 Crna Rijeka?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What were your duties, during the period after you completed
23 training, in 1992 through to, say, the end of 1994?
24 A. When I completed the training, I started driving the commander
25 and the deputy commander in my regiment.
1 Q. Can you tell us their names, if you remember?
2 A. The commander's name was Lieutenant-Colonel Gredo.
3 Q. And at some point, did you become the driver to General Tolimir?
4 A. That happened either in early 1995 or in mid-1995.
5 Q. Were you General Tolimir's driver before July of 1995?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you work full time as General Tolimir's driver once you
8 were assigned to him?
9 A. I didn't understand your question. Please repeat.
10 Q. Did you work only for General Tolimir, as his driver, once you
11 were assigned to him, or did you perform additional tasks or other duties
12 for the Communications Regiment at the same time?
13 A. I did not have any assignments or duties in the regiment. My
14 only task was to drive. And in this particular case, I drove the
15 general. And I was also supposed to carry out his orders, if there were
16 any forthcoming.
17 Q. Just to give us an idea of the work you did for General Tolimir,
18 can you tell us what kind of car or cars General Tolimir was using at
19 that time?
20 A. It was a small passenger vehicle, and there was also a jeep.
21 Q. And were you responsible for maintaining those vehicles, or you
22 simply would get in at the beginning of each day and do the driving, and
23 that's it?
24 A. My primary task was to drive. I also maintained the cars, making
25 sure that nothing happened either to me or to the general while I was
1 driving him around.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like to see, please, in e-court Exhibit P104,
3 at page 10, I think, in the e-court.
4 Q. So while this image is coming up: As you'll remember, we looked
5 yesterday at a simplified map, and I'd ask that when it comes on screen,
6 you'll tell me if you agree that it shows the main roads in the eastern
7 part of Republika Srpska.
8 If we could rotate 90 degrees to the right, please, and perhaps
9 you could zoom in first onto the top half and then scroll down after a
10 moment, just so the writing is a little clearer.
11 So are you able to make out the place names written on that map,
12 and do you agree that it's a version of the map we had a look at
14 A. Yes, you showed me this map yesterday.
15 Q. Okay. I'd like to leave that on screen while I move to July of
16 1995. It hopefully will help us as we talk through any of the trips we
18 You told us you were General Tolimir's driver starting at some
19 point in 1995, before July. Thinking now to July 1995, do you recall on
20 what date Srebrenica was captured?
21 A. I only heard in the media that that happened on the 12th of July.
22 Q. Why do you remember that particular date, the 12th of July?
23 A. On that day, on the 12th of July, it was an important date for me
24 because it is my Name Day celebration. Every person of Orthodox belief
25 has such a day in a year. For me, it's the 12th of July. That's why I
1 remember it so well.
2 Q. Were you with General Tolimir on the 12th of July, 1995?
3 A. In the statement that I provided to you, I said that I remember
4 that on the 12th of July, we went to Bijeljina and back.
5 Q. To be clear for the record on this trial, because we haven't got
6 your statement in evidence before the Court, you say: "We went to
7 Bijeljina and back." Who do you mean by "we," please?
8 A. General Tolimir and myself.
9 Q. So starting from the beginning of that day, can you tell us what
10 you and General Tolimir did that day? Tell us about this trip to
11 Bijeljina that you just mentioned. Where did you start from and how did
12 you travel?
13 A. I don't know the exact time when we departed. We did not have
14 any problems getting to Bijeljina. We arrived there. The general had
15 some commitments over there. I don't know what those commitments were.
16 It was not my duty to know. My duty was only to transport the general to
17 the place where he told me to take him and to await further instructions.
18 On that same day, we returned to Crna Rijeka.
19 Q. You say you went to Bijeljina, and Bijeljina is a town. Was
20 there a specific location in the town, a military location, or another
21 facility that you went to on General Tolimir's order?
22 A. I believe that I took him to the Security Department of the
23 East Bosnia Corps.
24 Q. When you arrived at the Security Department at the
25 East Bosnia Corps, what happened?
1 A. The general, I suppose, had a meeting. I don't know what. And I
2 was waiting for him in a room which was a dedicated room for the drivers.
3 That's where I usually waited for him. And he finished whatever he was
4 doing, he came to me and he said, Let's go back.
5 Q. Were there any other drivers waiting with you in that room for
6 their bosses to attend the same meeting? Do you know who else was at
7 that meeting?
8 A. I don't know who else attended the meeting. I believe that only
9 a soldier, whose duty was to make coffees, was in that same room with me.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could look at the map that we had on the
11 screen a moment ago, if that's still available.
12 Q. And so if we can scroll up the map, you see the red triangle in
13 the centre. Hopefully that will come back in a second.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Carrying on scrolling down a little further,
15 please. That's good.
16 Q. Sir, do you see, in the centre bottom of the picture, a red
17 triangle marking Crna Rijeka? Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Could you tell us if the roads shown on this map, going up
20 through Han Pijesak, then Vlasenica, Milici, past Zvornik, and then if we
21 scroll further north, up along the river through Janja and up to
22 Bijeljina, is that the route that you followed to go up for the meeting
23 in Bijeljina on the 12th of July or was there another route that you
25 A. That's the only road that was passable at the time.
1 Q. And you told us after the meeting, you travelled back from
2 Bijeljina to Crna Rijeka. Did you follow that same route back, as you
3 say it's the only route passable at the time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you stop somewhere on the way back?
6 A. I've already stated that we may have had a very short break in
7 Vlasenica, perhaps a few minutes. I don't know exactly how long we
8 stopped for, but it couldn't have been long.
9 Q. So where in Vlasenica did you stop? Again, it's a town. Did you
10 stop at a military facility, some other place in Vlasenica? Please be
12 A. We stopped in front of the corps command building.
13 Q. Sir, after the 12th of July, for the rest of that month, do you
14 remember any other specific dates or the events of any other specific
15 dates on which you drove General Tolimir?
16 A. I don't remember the date.
17 Q. Okay. Well, without trying to establish specific dates, in which
18 area were you driving General Tolimir during the rest of that month,
19 which part of the country?
20 A. One day, we travelled to Zepa -- actually, to one part of the
21 area between Rogatica and Zepa. However, I can't remember what date was
23 Q. And I don't want to ask you about trying to establish a specific
24 date if you can't remember that.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: But I would like to, please, have in e-court
1 page 12 of the same exhibit, P104.
2 If you could scroll down a little bit, please. I think like --
3 like that is good. Thank you.
4 Q. So do you remember looking also at this map we have on the screen
5 now when we met yesterday?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There are various locations marked on this map, showing the area
8 from Han Pijesak down to Rogatica. And as you can see, some of the place
9 names are mentioned in English, but they all have the town, or village
10 name, or another designation in the label which I hope you can
12 If we can look at the map in the area from Zepa and perhaps just
13 further south from there, if we can scroll slightly further down.
14 Sir, can you recall travelling to locations in this area when you
15 say you went to Zepa sometime in July of 1995? And, specifically, we can
16 see the locations marked there as "Boksanica Check-Point," "Borike IKM,"
17 and also "Borike Villa." Did you go to any of these locations in July of
19 A. Yes. That was the Boksanica check-point. That's where we were.
20 Q. And you said: "That's where we were." Just to be clear for the
21 trial record, by "we," do you mean yourself and General Tolimir?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you spend any nights away from Crna Rijeka, in this area,
24 during July of 1995?
25 A. I don't understand your question. Please repeat.
1 Q. Did you stay at any location in this area, in the Borike area and
2 Boksanica area, with General Tolimir or close by to General Tolimir
3 during July of 1995?
4 A. By the Boksanica check-point, that's where the general and myself
5 spent a few days. I don't know how many days.
6 Q. Do you know of a place that's called here the Borike Villa? Have
7 you heard of that place?
8 A. Is that a place or is that a feature or facility, Villa Borike?
9 I've never heard of any such thing before. What is that?
10 Q. Do you know of a villa that used to be the property of, I think,
11 Dzemal Bijedic located at Borike, a house, like a country house by a
12 forest and by some open plains near the Borike Horse Farm?
13 A. There was a building there. I don't know what it was called or
14 who it belonged to.
15 Q. Was it some kind of villa or country house?
16 A. A building of some sort a bit more elaborate than just a normal,
17 ordinary house. A bit more luxurious, as far as I can remember.
18 Q. Did General Tolimir, to your knowledge or recollection, spend any
19 nights at that location while you were in the area in July of 1995? Did
20 he sleep there?
21 A. In one of the buildings, perhaps in that building - I don't
22 remember - if memory serves me well, I think that we did spend one night
23 in that building.
24 Q. Did you, yourself, sleep in the building or did you, as the
25 driver, sleep somewhere else?
1 A. I spent that one evening in one of the buildings there. I'm not
2 sure if that was the one or not.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a moment, Mr. Elderkin.
4 Could you please describe the buildings, if you seen there, as
5 you just indicated, at least more than one building; for instance, the
6 size, the colour, and which they belonged to each other? Could you
7 describe them?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said there was one building,
9 as far as I remember, and I can't remember exactly how it looked. I
10 can't remember any of the details. Perhaps it was a little -- its
11 condition was a little better than the condition of an ordinary house
12 would have been at the time, and that's about as much as I can remember.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What do you think when this building, this house,
14 was built, in which time-period?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly before the war, I can't
16 say exactly.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before which war?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The war that broke out in 1992 in
19 BH territory.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was it built in the 19th century, or the 20th
21 century, before or after the Second World War?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure if I'm able to answer
23 this question. Probably after World War II, but I don't know when
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you recall how many buildings were in these
1 premises or nearby?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think just the one building. I
3 can't remember any others.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Elderkin, please proceed.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
7 Q. Sir, do you remember which vehicle you were driving during this
8 time you spent in the Borike and Boksanica area with General Tolimir?
9 A. Given the lay of the land, it was a jeep vehicle we were using, a
10 Mercedes vehicle built specially for hilly terrain like that.
11 Q. This Mercedes jeep, was it fitted out for military use?
12 A. It was the kind of car used by the former JNA, and it was now in
13 the VRS.
14 Q. Did it have any kind of communications capability, any kind of
15 radio communication capability?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Sir, during the same month, July 1995, did you ever go down into
18 Zepa town?
19 A. Yes, once. I can't remember the date or the exact time.
20 Q. Who did you go with?
21 A. General Tolimir.
22 Q. What did you do with General Tolimir down in Zepa town? Did you
23 spend some time there or drive down and return immediately?
24 A. I drove the general there. I waited up, perhaps half an hour or
25 thereabouts, and then we drove back.
1 Q. Was the Muslim population still in Zepa while you were down
3 A. Yes, some were still around; I'm not sure if all of them.
4 Q. And what were they doing?
5 A. Could you please repeat that? I'm not sure if I'm clear about
6 what it means.
7 Q. The Muslim population, the people you observed in Zepa town while
8 you were there, what were they doing? Were they preparing to leave?
9 Were they simply going about their daily lives?
10 A. They certainly weren't pursuing their day-to-day activities.
11 Were they preparing to leave? I can't say, really.
12 Q. Did you witness any convoy leaving Zepa to take the Muslim
13 population to other parts of Bosnia?
14 A. Yes, I did see one of those convoys with citizens leaving the
15 area. It took them an awfully long time to leave the area, given the
16 conditions that prevailed at the time, and the road was in very poor
17 condition. There was some buses that would break down along the road,
18 things like that.
19 Q. Did you play any part in travelling with this convoy? Tell us
20 about what you remember.
21 A. Well, I had no part to play in that. My only task was to wait
22 and to carry out any orders by the general, drive him places whenever
23 that was required, and that was the only job I did.
24 Q. Where did you drive when you left Zepa town?
25 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. Where, when I left Zepa?
1 Q. Did you ever drive from Zepa to the confrontation line?
2 A. As far as I remember, from Zepa we went back to the check-point,
3 and that's where we stayed.
4 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you about accompanying or leading a convoy
5 from Zepa to the confrontation line. Do you remember talking about that
6 subject in the interview that you reviewed yesterday?
7 A. I remember that one occasion, I believe. I was driving a car.
8 General Tolimir was in it and another person. I don't know who. In my
9 opinion, we were at the head of the column, I think the second car at the
10 head, preceded by the police at the head and the tail of the column
11 securing the column. So we were the number-two car in that column. My
12 task or my role - at least that is my opinion - was to go all the way to
13 the end of that route so that this person who was driving with us would
14 make sure that the convoy got through safe and that everyone would be
15 fine as they were on their way through RS territory.
16 Q. When you got to the end of that route, where did you return
17 afterwards? I assume you didn't stay at the edge of RS territory.
18 A. Again, again, as far as the confrontation line. When the people
19 or population left, we drove back to Boksanica, the check-point.
20 Q. Did you make this journey to the confrontation line and back only
21 one time or on more than one occasion?
22 A. I don't remember exactly whether it was once or twice. At any
23 rate, it wasn't more than that.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay, sir. Thank you very much.
25 Those are all the questions that I have, and I put myself in the
1 Judges' hands. I believe it's General Tolimir's turn now.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Elderkin.
3 Now Mr. Tolimir has the opportunity to put questions to you, sir.
4 Mr. Tolimir, it's your turn now.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Again, peace to all of you, and may God steer us in our
7 proceedings here.
8 I wish Mr. Micic a very good day, I wish him a pleasant stay
9 in here Den Haag, and a safe trip back home. And I would like to thank
10 him for coming here to testify.
11 I have no questions for him. The one thing that I'd like to say
12 is I'm exceptionally pleased to see him. He's done his job. He's done
13 what he was expected to do.
14 Thank you very much, sir. I have no questions for this witness.
15 Thank you. Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, I take it since there was no
17 cross-examination, there will be no re-examination by the Prosecution.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: That's absolutely correct, Your Honour.
19 If I may also note, I don't know whether our next witness has yet
20 been brought across. We were expecting a little longer on
21 cross-examination. But if we could start the break now, and we can try
22 and sort things out.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
24 Sir, you will be pleased that this concludes your examination
25 here in this trial, in this courtroom. Now you are free to return to
1 your normal residence and your normal activities. The Chamber would like
2 to thank you that you were able to come to The Hague and testify in this
4 Indeed, I think it's appropriate to have our first break now, and
5 I hope that the next witness will be ready after the break.
6 We adjourn and resume at 4.00.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, especially to you, Ms. Hasan.
11 Welcome back.
12 The witness should be brought back in, please.
13 Mr. Tolimir.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Before the witness comes in, I completed my questioning of the
16 last witness without asking any questions because I know that he still
17 suffers from traumas after losing his father and his brother. I could
18 tell that he was under a lot of stress. I also felt that Mr. Elderkin
19 was about to ask him more questions. I don't oppose his statement being
20 admitted, where he provides a more detailed account of everything that
21 went on. It might be useful to both us and the OTP. I conferred with my
22 legal counsel, and he has informed me that the statement has not been
23 admitted. It's 1D114. And he clearly pointed out -- the witness clearly
24 pointed out that he stood by that statement. Therefore, I think it might
25 as well be admitted. Thank you.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment, I can only note that it is too
3 late for such a submission. We are dealing now with the next witness.
4 Good afternoon, sir. Welcome to the courtroom.
5 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
6 shown to you now.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: MIHAJLO GALIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 Please sit down and make yourself comfortable.
14 The Prosecution is now putting questions to you. Ms. Hasan now
15 has the floors.
16 MS. HASAN: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good
17 afternoon witness. Good afternoon to everyone else in the courtroom.
18 Just one preliminary matter, and that is that I was informed by
19 the witness this morning that he suffers from a medical condition that
20 prevents him for sitting down for long periods of time. Particularly, he
21 has told me -- he has advised that after approximately an hour to an hour
22 and a half, he starts feeling -- experiencing pain in his legs, and so it
23 may be the case that he may need a break during his testimony.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this information.
25 Indeed, I would like to invite you to indicate whenever there is
1 a need for a break, you should tell us and then we will do that, so that
2 there is no reason for any pain for you.
3 Ms. Hasan.
4 Examination by Ms. Hasan:
5 Q. Witness, would you please state your name for the record?
6 A. Mihajlo Galic.
7 Q. Have you recently had an opportunity to listen to the testimony
8 that you gave in 2007 in the Popovic et al case?
9 A. Yes, yesterday.
10 Q. Was the evidence that you gave during your testimony in 2007 true
11 and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
12 A. I listened to it, and as far as I remember, the account was the
13 most truthful that I could provide at the time.
14 Q. So if I asked you those very same questions today, would you
15 provide the same answers?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I then offer the transcript of
18 Mr. Galic's testimony from the Popovic case, bearing 65 ter number 6564 -
19 that's the under-seal transcript - and 65 ter 6565, to be admitted into
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both exhibits will be received, the former under
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 6564 shall be
24 assigned Exhibit P2436, under seal, and 65 ter document 6565 shall be
25 assigned Exhibit P2437. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan.
2 MS. HASAN: And as regards the exhibits that were admitted
3 through this witness or used with him during his prior testimony, there
4 are a number of them that have already been admitted in this case. For
5 those that have not been, they have -- a few of them have already been
6 assigned P numbers, provisional P numbers, and I will read those out.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there is no need for that.
8 MS. HASAN: Okay.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is a very long list, and I take it it starts
10 with P1107, MFI, and goes to P1125, MFI.
11 MS. HASAN: That is correct, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Those who are not yet in evidence will be
13 admitted, and the Registrar will provide you with -- no, there is no
14 need. We have already the P numbers as MFI'd.
15 I would like to ask the Registrar to consult with me.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As they already have provisional P numbers, there
18 is no need for an internal memorandum. All those listed will be
19 received. There's only one which has not a P number yet. This is
20 65 ter 7091. This will be received and given a P number by the Registrar
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7091 shall be
23 assigned Exhibit P2438.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
25 May I ask you, have all the exhibits a translation?
1 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I believe I see here one, P1114, does
2 not appear to have a translation, which we will provide in due course,
3 and I don't see any other ones. There is one note, and that's in respect
4 to P1115 -- sorry, it seems that there's more than just P1114 that
5 requires a translation; P1116 and P1117, as well as 1118, so more than
6 the one I first referred to. In addition, P1115 --
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To avoid any error or misunderstanding at a later
9 stage, I would like to invite you to file a note to the Registry. They
10 will provide you and the parties and the Chamber with an internal
11 memorandum indicating which one of these documents are only marked for
12 identification, pending translation, and those who are already in
14 MS. HASAN: Certainly. Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may proceed.
16 MS. HASAN: I will then now move to read a summary of this
17 witness's prior testimony.
18 In July of 1995, Mihajlo Galic was a major and the assistant
19 chief of staff for Reinforcement and Personnel Affairs of the Zvornik
20 Brigade and worked directly under the chief of staff and deputy
21 commander, Major Dragan Obrenovic.
22 On the evening of the 13th of July, at approximately 10.00 or
23 11.00 p.m., Mr. Galic was resting at the Zvornik Brigade Command when he
24 received instructions to go to the brigade's forward command post, the
25 brigade's IKM, in Kitovnica, to replace Zvornik Brigade chief of
1 security, Lieutenant Drago Nikolic as the IKM duty officer. Nikolic was
2 not present at the IKM when Mr. Galic arrived, and Mr. Galic did not try
3 to contact him. Mr. Galic arrived at the IKM on the night of the 13th of
4 July in advance of his scheduled shift which was to commence at 7.00 in
5 the morning on the 14th of July. Mr. Galic remained on duty at the IKM
6 until the morning of the 15th of July. He testified that his replacement
7 of Nikolic on the night of the 13th of July was an "extraordinary shift
9 During his testimony, Mr. Galic was shown the original IKM
10 log-book. He confirmed that he wrote the 13th of July, 1995, entry and
11 that the signature was his.
12 In addition to testifying about replacing Nikolic at the
13 brigade's IKM, Mr. Galic also testified about a number of other topics,
14 including: the presence of the Zvornik Brigade's commander,
15 Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic's presence in the field from 4th or
16 5th July until at least the 15th of July; an order that he passed on from
17 Pandurevic to the Zvornik Brigade's assistant chief of staff for
18 Operations and Training, Major Miodrag Dragutinovic, regarding
19 Dragutinovic's next assignment; the number of Serb soldiers who were
20 killed in the Baljkovica area during the 15th and 16th of July, in 1995,
21 before the opening of the corridor; as well as his knowledge concerning
22 Exhibit P1112 of instructions which the brigade received from the
23 Main Staff in 1994 regarding the security organ reporting procedures.
24 Q. Mr. Galic, you have heard the summary I have just read about your
25 prior testimony. Are there any changes you would like to make to that or
1 does that accurately give a fair representation of the testimony you
3 A. This is precisely what I stated. Your words were an accurate
4 reflection of what I said.
5 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I have no questions for this witness
6 at this stage.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 Mr. Tolimir, are you in a position to commence your
9 cross-examination now?
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 May God's will be done in these proceedings, and not necessarily
15 I would like to greet the witness and wish him a pleasant stay in
16 our midst. We'll start with the summary.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. In the summary, the Prosecutor said that you were on furlough
20 from the brigade and that later on you were sent to the forward command
21 post to relieve Drago Nikolic. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I already at this point in time ask both
25 speakers to pause between question and answer, wait a moment, because
1 everything has to be interpreted into our language so that there's no
3 Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. I'll repeat the question. Please, could you tell us who was it
6 who ordered you to go to the forward command post and be on duty there?
7 A. I was on furlough, which means that the duty officer approached
8 me and told me to go to the forward command post and do what I did. So I
9 received that information or that was conveyed to me by the brigade duty
11 Q. Thank you. Did the duty officer receive that order from his
12 superior or from his subordinate? Thank you. Could you please wait
13 until the moment my words are fully recorded. Thank you.
14 A. I don't know that. I don't know who he received the order or the
15 message from.
16 Q. Thank you. In this part of the summary, the Prosecutor said that
17 that was an extraordinary shift duty. Did you perform extraordinary
18 shift duty at that command post before and after that? Thank you.
19 A. Yes. For me, that was an extraordinary shift duty because I was
20 not on the rota. Before that and after that, I was on the rota of the
21 brigade command. I was assigned to work as a duty officer at the forward
22 command post.
23 Q. Thank you. Did your chief of staff, who was your immediate
24 superior, know that you were supposed to go to the IKM to relieve
25 Drago Nikolic of his duty? Thank you.
1 A. I didn't know it then; I don't know it now. I don't know whether
2 he knew that.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Could the witness please be shown -- and we have to move into
5 private session in order to use the evidence provided by Witness PW-057.
6 Can we go into private session, or if somebody thinks that we can stay in
7 open session, I don't mind.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 16020-16025 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Tolimir, please continue.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Could we please have page 7 of the Serbian and page 8 of the
3 English so that everyone is able to follow.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. We see here Attorney Petrusic saying "Zvornika Brigada" had a
6 single military police company. And then your answer is: "Yes."
7 And then the question is:
8 "Who was in command of that military police contingent?"
9 And then Mihajlo Galic answers:
10 "The military police commander, and you see this unit was
11 directly subordinate to the security organ."
12 He goes on to say:
13 "Hence, we may conclude and move this to the level of the
14 personnel issue; that the company commander was Miomir Jasikovac in July
15 1995, while his superior officer along this line of command was
16 Drago Nikolic."
17 And your answer is: "That's right."
18 My question to you, sir, is this: Do you know who was
19 Jasikovac's superior, and who had the authority to issue orders to
20 Jasikovac? Thank you.
21 A. The company commander. The commander, the chief of staff, or the
22 security chief could have issued an order to the commander of the
23 Military Police Company.
24 Q. Thank you. What you just said, is that in keeping with the rules
25 on the use of the military police? Thank you. ^
1 A. General, sir, I answer to the best of my ability and knowledge.
2 Q. Thank you. Thank you for what you said. Do you know who
3 exercises command over a military police unit that is part of a brigade?
4 Who writes up its assessment? Who punishes them? Who rewards them? You
5 were a personnel officer, so would this happen, Drago Nikolic or anyone
7 A. All the units within the brigade are under the brigade commander.
8 Nevertheless, the chief of security is the person or the officer who
9 works closely with the military police, as far as I know, and he gets
10 military policemen to perform all sorts of tasks; security, escort
11 control, arresting people, securing a compound, military barracks, that
12 sort of thing. That's as far as I know.
13 Q. Thank you. A while ago when I read that thing in closed session,
14 did you not see that Mr. Nikolic was demanding that Mr. Obrenovic place
15 at his disposal Mr. Jasikovac and a component of the military police? Do
16 you remember that?
17 A. Yes, I remember that, and I remember that the unit was already
18 engaged in combat at that point in time, if my understanding is correct.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you see that later on in that conversation, he
20 said, I'll think about it, when the other man wants to have at least a
21 part of that unit, and then he says, I'll think about it.
22 So my question is: First of all, did you hear that, when
23 Obrenovic told Nikolic, I'll think about it, whether I'll give you at
24 least a part of that unit?
25 A. Yes, I heard that from you because you read it back to me. It
1 really depends on what each of them were busy doing at the time, so
2 that's probably why he phrased the remark the way he did, but not that
3 I'd know about it.
4 Q. Thank you. If Drago Nikolic had been in command of that unit,
5 would he have asked permission from Obrenovic or would he have done as he
6 saw fit?
7 A. Some of the activities performed within the military police
8 company, I know that Drago Nikolic deployed those people outside the
9 barracks, inside the barracks, getting them there, sending them
10 elsewhere. Did he do that of his own initiative or with someone's
11 approval is not something that I'm aware of.
12 Q. Thank you. Was it perhaps the commander who ordered him to
13 deploy these people, in keeping with an order by the commander, himself?
14 Is this something that you're aware of?
15 A. No, I'm not aware of that, General, sir.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know that a commander commands the military
17 police, they are directly subordinate to him, just like in the case of
18 battalion commanders in other units that are part of a brigade? Do you
19 know that? You were a personnel officer, after all. That's why I'm
20 asking. Thank you.
21 A. As a matter of principle, all the units are linked to the
22 commander, and the commander commands these units, but there are probably
23 some situations when the authorities shift. I'm not familiar with the
24 rules governing the work of the military police, and I'm not privy to all
25 the nuts and bolts of how this actually worked.
1 Q. Thank you. I understand that you don't understand. It's not
2 your job. There is stuff that we don't know about your work.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But can we please now look at
4 P1297, which is the rules governing the work of the military police.
5 It's about to come up on the screen. This is the rules governing
6 the work of the military police in the Armed Forces of the SFRY.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the previous
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 1D915 will be received as an exhibit.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D915 shall be
12 assigned Exhibit D294. Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, I would like to draw your
14 attention to another problem. The testimony of the witness in the
15 Popovic case was -- these transcripts were already assigned with P
16 numbers, but I give the floor to the Registrar to have it on the record.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, with your leave, the transcript of
18 Mihajlo Galic's testimony in the Popovic et al case, dated 25th to 27th
19 April, 2007, was already assigned two exhibit numbers, one to the
20 confidential version, P1105, and P01106 to the public redacted version of
21 the transcript.
22 Further to that, exhibit numbers assigned today, namely, P2436,
23 under seal, to the 65 ter document 6564, and P2437 to the 65 ter document
24 6565, shall be removed, to be assigned to some other Prosecution
25 documents yet to be tendered. In light of this correction,
1 Exhibit P2438 that was assigned to the 65 ter document 7091 will also be
2 assigned to another document at a later stage.
3 At this point, Exhibit P2436 will be reassigned to the 65 ter
4 document 7091. Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this correction.
6 Sir, I would like to remind you again, if you need a break,
7 please let us know. Otherwise, Mr. Tolimir will continue.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We may continue, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor again.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Could we please now have the title of these rules so the witness
12 can see it. Thank you. Page 2 in e-court in the English.
13 Could we please now look at item 12 or paragraph 12, which is
14 page 13 in the Serbian and page 10 in the English - thank
15 you - paragraph 12. Thank you.
16 Could we please go to page 9 in the Serbian. This is page 20.
17 Nothing for us there. Paragraph 12 of the rules. Thank you. That's
18 Chapter 2. Thank you very much.
19 Could you please zoom in a little so the witness can see.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, I'm about to quote, for your benefit, paragraph 12 of these
22 rules. Before that, let me ask you: Do you know if, in your brigade of
23 the VRS, the rules for the former JNA were, indeed, used? Thank you.
24 A. Yes, I think so. There were no other rules that we could use, at
25 least not as far as I know.
1 Q. Thank you for this answer.
2 Please have a look at paragraph 12. Chapter 2, "The Command and
3 Control of the Military Police," that is the heading. Number 12 reads:
4 "The officer in charge of the military unit, and institution
5 within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which
6 it is attached, commands and controls the military police."
7 My question: Who would be the officer in charge of the military
8 police, in keeping with paragraph 12 of these rules? Thank you.
9 A. Based on this, based on what you read out in paragraph 12, it
10 would be the most senior brigade commander. But, again, I have to stress
11 this: I find myself analysing these rules and instructions governing the
12 work of the military police. I've never read this previously, nor,
13 indeed, was I at any point in time familiar with this. It's very
14 difficult for me to address anything at all in relation to this set of
15 rules that I was never familiar with, to begin with. The evidence that I
16 provided was based on my impressions of how things worked at the time
17 back in 1992 -- 1991 through 1995.
18 Q. Thank you. I apologise to you, sir, but given your statement,
19 the statement that we have just quoted, saying that Drago Nikolic was in
20 command, I wish to ask you now this, sir: Under the rules, could the
21 commander have been Drago Nikolic or would it have had to be the brigade
22 commander? Thank you.
23 A. Based on what we see on the screen, no. But then whenever
24 there's a rule, there must be an exception too, so this was probably one
25 of those occasional exceptions where someone had to be in command,
1 regardless of what the rules actually said. I'm not sure if my
2 understanding is correct, but this is what the rules say.
3 Q. We'll get to those exceptions. Thank you very much.
4 Let's move on to paragraph 13 to see whether that constitutes an
6 "With respect to specialty, the officer in charge of the security
7 body of the unit or institution within whose establishment the military
8 police unit is placed or to which it is attached controls the military
9 police. He makes suggestions to the officer in charge of the military
10 unit or institution on the use of military police units and is
11 responsible for the combat readiness of the military police unit and the
12 performance of their tasks."
13 End of quote. My question: Based on the provisions of
14 paragraph 13, the commander remains the same, but the security organ
15 makes suggestions on the use of the military police units; is that what
16 the rules say?
17 A. It's not up to me to change the rule I see before my very eyes,
18 and I can't change what I'm looking at.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we go to paragraph 2 of Article 13:
20 "When controlling a military police unit, the officer in charge
21 of the security body," from the first paragraph of this article, from
22 paragraph 1 of this item, "has the same rights and duties which the
23 officers of arms services of military units and institutions have in
24 controlling the units of arms and services."
25 My question: Did Drago Nikolic have the same rights as the
1 chief -- the various chiefs, the artillery chief, the engineers chief,
2 the signals chief, or were his rights any different under these
3 provisions of this article.
4 A. General, sir, I simply don't know. I'm simply unable to
5 interpret these rules, and it follows that I don't know how to answer
6 your question as to whether he had the same rights or different rights.
7 Q. Thank you very much. I understand you. As a personnel officer
8 working in a brigade, did you know who exercised command over whom and
9 who was who else's superior officer?
10 A. I was familiar with the organisation chart of the brigade. I
11 knew what the links were between people, but I can't be more specific
12 about any details.
13 Q. Thank you. What about those charts that you used? Was there a
14 link between the military police commander and the brigade commander or
15 the military police commander and the chief of staff?
16 A. Sir, General, it wasn't my chart. I just looked at it several
17 times, but I wasn't the one who produced it or anything like that.
18 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us this: What about the
19 personnel organ; did it have a working chart listing all the assistant
20 commanders and all the lower-ranking commanders that were directly in
21 touch with the overall commander? Thank you.
22 A. The personnel unit had the brigade's establishment chart. We had
23 all the records, and those were the documents that we had. I'm not sure
24 what to call it.
25 Q. Thank you. What did the establishment chart say? Were the links
1 drawn there between who was -- as to who was directly in touch with whom?
2 A. I don't remember specifically, but I think that the number of
3 people in the command, in the units, in terms of their military
4 specialties, in terms of their ranks, were all there, and that's how it
5 was regulated. Each unit had a certain number of this, a certain number
6 of that, a certain number of men. I was only interested in the number of
7 men because that's what my records were about, the ones that I was
8 keeping, but I didn't know about the links between these people.
9 Q. Thank you very much. As it was you who would deliver to the
10 commander for signature proposals or decisions regarding promotions --
11 or, rather, did you do that? When someone else was promoted to a higher
12 rank or a higher position, did you submit those documents for signature
13 to the commander, and how exactly did you do that? Can you tell the
14 Trial Chamber, please?
15 A. When officers were promoted under the brigade commander, the
16 brigade commander would be in charge of that. Whenever there was
17 something that was wasn't within his remit, it would be left to the
18 superior commands; the corps command, for example. Therefore, as far as
19 I remember, this was broken up for officers, for NCOs, and a different
20 procedure applied in each of these cases. I think the officers were
21 under their superior commands -- under the brigade commander and the NCOs
22 under their superior commands. That's as much as I can say.
23 Q. Do you remember who made the proposals for these promotions to a
24 higher rank or a higher position? Who was in charge of the proposals?
25 Thank you.
1 A. As far as I can remember, it was the units who made those
2 proposals based on the results of work.
3 Q. Thank you. Since the units proposed that, tell me, who was in
4 charge of promotions for commanders of independent units in the brigade?
5 And could you also tell us which of the independent units existed in the
7 A. Proposals for the promotion of the officers of independent units,
8 I assume that it came -- they came from the chief of staff to the
9 commander. And as for the independent units within the brigade, those
10 were battalions, the Military Police Company, the Engineers Company and
11 the Communications Company, as far as I can remember. It was a long time
12 ago, so I'm not entirely sure that that was indeed the case.
13 Q. Thank you. It was, indeed, the way you have just told us. You
14 have just mentioned a military police company. Was it directly linked to
15 the brigade commander as an independent unit in the brigade? Thank you.
16 A. All units were linked to the brigade commander, all units. And
17 if we follow that analogy, then the answer would be, Yes. However, there
18 were exceptions. I remember that the Military Police Company was also
19 linked to the chief of security, according to the schematic. That's how
20 it was supposed to be. I don't know whether that was, indeed, the case,
21 whether it was really true or not.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you show that schematic to the lawyers, or the
23 Prosecutor, or the Judges when you testified? Was that schematic
24 presented, as such, to corroborate your words?
25 A. I don't know. I don't have that schematic. I never had it.
1 Q. Please, this is a tribunal. It's very important for the
2 Trial Chamber to know whether the military police was an independent
3 unit, subordinated to the commander, or was it subordinated to somebody
4 else. This is a tribunal. It's very important for you to remember and
5 to tell us, if you can.
6 A. I can only remember that all units were the commander's
7 responsibility. The commander was responsible for all the units. That's
8 as much as I know. Anything else I would tell you, I would go beyond
9 that way of thinking, because the commander was responsible for all.
10 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the bullet point 13 that you see on the
11 screen, where it says:
12 "The military police, in professional terms, is controlled by the
13 officer of the security organ of the military unit or institution on
14 whose strength it exists."
15 Does the security organ command or control the military police
16 unit? There is a big difference there.
17 A. This is what it says. I can't change that. I don't know it. I
18 can't change anything, if that's what it says here.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know what control, in professional terms, is,
20 and does it differ from the function of command when we talk about the
21 military police?
22 A. The terms "control" and "command," I don't know what the two mean
23 exactly. I don't know the difference between "control" and "command." I
24 don't know whether the two are the same or not. When it says, with
25 respect to speciality, the officer in charge of the security body of the
1 unit or institution within whose establishment the military police unit
2 is placed controls the military police, I can't explain that. I don't
3 know the difference between "control" and "command."
4 Q. Since you're not in a position to do that, can you look at bullet
5 points 12 and 13, and can you conclude who is it who commands, on the one
6 hand, and who is it who controls?
7 A. I can only read what it says in here. According to bullet point
8 12, it says here that:
9 "The officer in charge of the military unit and institution
10 within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which
11 it is attached commands and controls ..."
12 And then in bullet point 13, it just mentions controls. These
13 two things obviously are different. There is a distinction, but I'm not
14 aware of it. It's very difficult for me to make a distinction between
15 bullet point 12 and bullet point 13. Really, I'm not in a position to do
17 Q. Thank you. My question is this: Bullet point 12 speaks about
18 command. Does bullet point 13 speak only about professional control or
19 does it also speak about command? Thank you.
20 A. Bullet point 12 speaks about command and control, whereas bullet
21 point 13 speaks about specialty and professional control, as far as I can
23 Q. Thank you. There's no need to belabour that point. Let's look
24 at P1111, which is a document that you, yourself, drew up in your
25 previous testimony.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P1111.
2 Thank you.
3 Can this be zoomed in a little. Thank you. Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you draw this up yourself, this schematic?
6 A. No, I didn't draw it up. It was readily available and made
7 available to me. I only entered the names of people who discharged
8 certain duties. Somebody asked me to do that.
9 Q. And is this schematic correct or not?
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't answer whether it is
12 correct or not. This was given to me to fill out.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And now look at where it says "Staff" and then "Chief of Staff."
15 And you indicate that the Military Police Company was also under his
16 command. Is that correct or not?
17 A. I did not understand you. What are you asking me? Below the
18 "Chief of Staff," what?
19 Q. Yes. Do you see a list of subordinated assistants, headed by
20 you, and does the second column also display the Military Police Company
21 and so on and so forth?
22 A. Yes, I can see the "Military Police Company" here, but I'm
23 looking at the following page as well or the other part of the page.
24 Q. Could you please encircle, in red pen, where you see the
25 "Military Police Company"? Was it subordinated to the chief of staff or
1 not? In other words, is this correct or not?
2 A. I don't know whether this correct or not.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment. The Court Usher will
4 assist you.
5 You were asked to encircle the words "Military Police Company."
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks] There in two places, here and
7 here [indicates].
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Since you have encircled the "Military Police Company" on the
10 right-hand-side, is this your handwriting where it says the "Military
11 Police Company" and "Jasikovac"?
12 A. Yes, this is my handwriting, and at that moment I thought that
13 that was how things had been.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you please put number 1 next to the Cyrillic
15 upper-case "Military Police Company" and number 2 to the same words
16 handwritten by you?
17 A. [Marks]
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now -- no, no. No, no. Can
19 we scroll up to see who signed this schematic?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, this is not possible. If you move it, you
21 will lose the markings.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can this be admitted? And then we will move the page.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked scheme will be received as an
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit P1111 that was marked by
2 the witness in court shall be assigned Exhibit D295. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I would suggest, for the benefit of
4 the witness, that we have our second break now so that the last session
5 will be one hour again, and we are now sitting for more than one hour.
6 I think it's the best time to have the break now, and then you may
8 This marking is saved, and we have it in evidence.
9 We must have our second break now, and we will resume after half
10 an hour at 6.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan. I see you on your feet.
14 MS. HASAN: Yes.
15 Your Honours, there's just a preliminary matter before the
16 witness is brought in.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This part will be redacted. Don't mention the
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. HASAN: Oh, I'm sorry. Can we go into private session at
24 this moment?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We go into private session, and the last part
1 will be redacted.
2 [Private session]
11 Page 16043 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that there is no objection by the
13 Prosecution to receive 1D914 into evidence. It will be received as an
14 Defence exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D914 shall be
16 assigned Exhibit D296. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And there was another mistake. When we referred
18 to a list of documents with the previous -- no, with the current witness,
19 I referred to one document which was not previously assigned with a P
20 number and MFI'd. I referred to the wrong one. Mr. Registrar should put
21 the correction on the record.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, from the list of MFI'd documents
23 for which the translation was provided, namely, 65 ter document 7411,
24 which was assigned Exhibit P2246, it's still to be marked for
25 identification, pending further authentication by the Chamber. Thank
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I hope we have now resolved all problems with
3 numbering and others.
4 This witness should be brought in again, please.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome back to the courtroom, sir. Sorry for
7 the delay. We had to deal with some procedural matters again.
8 Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.
9 Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Mr. Gajic [as interpreted], please, let's look at P1111 again.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you're right, Mr. Gajic. The current
13 witness is Mr. Galic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Galic, we're looking at the schematic, and let's keep it as
17 it is. Let's not move anything until we have explored this in detail.
18 You tied only the battalions to the commander, the
19 Rear Battalion, the Engineers, and the Communications Battalion.
20 Everything else, according to you, was linked with the chief of staff;
22 A. The horizontal line, the "Staff" and the rest, I suppose that
23 this means this is a line that goes all the way to the commander, that
24 everything is linked to the commander and everybody else, because there
25 is a common line. That's at least what I think.
1 Q. And my next question, sir: Did you also think that the
2 Military Police Company's linked to the chief of staff? Is that what you
4 A. It says here that they were linked to the chief of staff.
5 Q. Thank you. Was it, indeed, the case? Was the company linked to
6 the chief of staff or to the commander, as you just said it yourself?
7 A. All units are linked to the commanders. I've already told you.
8 Q. So is this a mistake, then. Was a mistake made when the
9 Military Police Company was shown as being linked to the chief of staff?
10 Did that unit report together with you?
11 A. Did it report together -- what?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please stop. Pause between question and answer.
13 We didn't get the answer yet. Please put the question again, and then
14 the witness may answer, but please pause.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Galic, could you please tell us, did you go to morning
17 briefings to the chief of staff or to the commander? Thank you.
18 A. To both, both the commander and the chief of staff.
19 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us: Why did you show the
20 military police as attending briefings in the chief of staff's office?
21 Why did you show them as being subordinated to the chief of staff?
22 A. General, sir, I don't see a reference to any briefings. This is
23 not to show how briefings were organised. I didn't know any better at
24 the moment when I drew this up. I did it to the best of my abilities at
25 the time according to what I knew.
1 Q. Thank you. When it comes to briefings, are briefings organised
2 by the superior officers; i.e., does a subordinate report to a superior?
3 A. Yes, a subordinate reports to his superior.
4 Q. Please, can you tell us: Who did the commander of the military
5 police company report to? Thank you.
6 A. I don't know. I wouldn't know.
7 Q. Thank you. Please, let's look at this schematic, at the words
8 that you added by hand. You put the Military Police Company as being
9 linked to the chief of security. Can you see that in the third vertical
10 column, or the fourth, rather? Can you tell us whether the chief -- or,
11 rather, whether the Military Police Company can be linked to both the
12 commander and the chief of security? Thank you.
13 A. It doesn't appear to be logical in this particular chart, but the
14 idea was the chief of security was someone that the unit was with all the
15 time, and he was with the units, and vice versa. So that's how it
17 Q. And what about the chief of security; was he linked to the chief
18 of staff or the commander? Thank you.
19 A. Commander.
20 Q. Thank you. If the chief of security was linked to the commander,
21 would the military police not have to be linked to the commander too?
22 Thank you.
23 A. In this variant, I thought the link was to the commander, and
24 then the military police was linked to the commander through the chief of
1 Q. Thank you. Could he also be linked to the chief of staff and the
2 commander, according to this chart, the way it looks - thank you - or is
3 this some sort of mistake? Thank you.
4 A. It's possibly a mistake on account of speed, on account of one's
5 inability to regulate this over a very short period of time. So an error
6 probably occurred.
7 Q. Thank you. Please, can you now look at the link between the
8 commander and the battalions 1 through 8? The Podrinje Battalion and its
9 platoons, you can see the division here in the third column and the
10 fourth column, Anti-Aircraft, Light Self-Propelled Artillery Division,
11 Anti-Aircraft, Engineering Company, and this battalion here. My question
12 is: Was any unit left out here that was directly linked to the
13 commander, and if so, please tell which one? Thank you.
14 A. I can't remember if there is another unit that belongs here not
15 being reflected. Somebody drew this chart. Maybe they left something
16 out. I can't remember. I can't remember whether there's anything else
17 that should be there.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you bring this chart along with you when you
19 spoke to Mr. Manning? Did you draw it right there and then in front of
20 him? How was it produced? Somebody wrote something down and then you
21 added to it? What can you tell the Chamber about how the chart came
22 about, how it was produced? Thank you.
23 A. I don't know how the chart was produced, but it was added to
24 during the interview. More drawings were made and names were added to
25 it, too, but I did not produce this chart myself.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you add all these things that are written here in
2 pen and in the Latinic script?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you add this here, that the Military Police Company was
5 linked to the chief of security?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Is this your handwriting down towards the bottom of
8 the chart, just outside the frame where it says "The 21st of September,
9 2001"? Thank you.
10 A. Yes, right after the date. I don't know whose signature that is.
11 Q. Does it not say "Mihajlo"?
12 A. Yes, but right after that, to the right, no, it's not. I don't
13 know who wrote that.
14 Q. Would that be Dean Manning initialling the page which you gave to
16 A. I don't know that, I don't know whether he did or not.
17 Q. Thank you. Please, sir, can you mark with a number 1 where it
18 says "Military Police Company," part of the organisational chart of the
19 chief of staff, and with a number 2, where you say it was under the chief
20 of security, and with a number 3, mark where it says when you provided
21 this chart with your signature. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Court Usher, please.
23 Please, number 1 next to "Military Police Company."
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And number 2.
1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And number 3, where it says when you provided
3 this chart with your signature.
4 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
5 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What about your microphone.
7 Once again, please.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. What is the number 1 in reference to, and then the number 2, and
11 then the number 3? Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Mr. President, could this please be admitted, the chart as
15 marked, and reflecting the changes made by the witness? Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked chart will be received as an exhibit.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1111, marked by the witness in court for
18 the second time today, shall be assigned Exhibit D297. Thank you.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Can you tell us this too, sir, Mr. Galic: To the best of your
21 knowledge and recollection, would the Military Police Company have to be
22 linked directly to the commander in order to be directly subordinated to
23 him? Thank you.
24 A. I'm not sure and I can't say.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please look at
1 P1108, in that case, P1108.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Okay. Let's look at what you said to the investigator when you
4 spoke to him, where the company should be. Thank you.
5 There you go. That's the interview that you conducted -- or that
6 Dean Manning conducted with you on the 27th of June, 2002. That's what
7 line 3 says, the date. And in the line 2, it says who conducted the
8 interview with you. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
10 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we could have
11 the same version across our screen, because this is a bilingual interview
12 with parts in English and parts in Serbian.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, I see it like you explained it. And the
14 specific part could be enlarged if you give an indication where you will
15 read from.
16 Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Could we now have page 45, please. 45, that's the page we want
19 to be looking at. The lower half of page 45 in English, in Serbian.
20 There you go.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. The investigator asks you:
23 "Who did he tell that to?"
24 And you say:
25 "At the officers' briefing, one of the officers' briefings, where
1 the senior officers were present, he announced his decision, this order
2 that security, chief of security, would report to his superior but within
3 the structure of the corps and the Main Staff."
4 Did you see that? Thank you.
5 A. Yes, I said that, but this was in reference to sending reports to
6 one's superior command by the brigade command and by the security
8 Q. Thank you. Could we please -- you spoke about the instructions;
9 right? Let's go back to the instructions to see whether that's what it
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the third
12 paragraph up from the bottom on the same page. Thank you.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. The third paragraph from the bottom up, Mihajlo Galic says:
15 "No, no, no, he didn't say that. He only said that they were
16 responsible for their work to their direct superior in the
17 Supreme Command."
18 A. This was only in reference to the drafting of the reports for the
19 command, like the previous thing that we looked at, so that's what they
20 were talking about and no other activity.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Page 46, let's see what you say in the continuation of this same
24 The investigator wanted to clarify some issues with you, who
25 could take manpower from the Military Police Battalion. Now, he asks
2 "Does that mean that, for example, the security officers, in case
3 of need, could use the manpower, take men, vehicles, and anything else
4 from the brigade without reporting about it or, indeed, consulting the
5 brigade commander?"
6 And then you said:
7 "The last time around on the 21st, I said that the chief of
8 security had, as his subordinated units, also the military police unit,
9 and he was to exercise command and control over it."
10 And then the next time you talk, you say:
11 "Through the commander of that unit."
12 And now the investigator is asking you this:
13 "And my question was: Could he take resources -- could the chief
14 of security take resources from the brigade, use them, and not tell the
15 brigade command?"
16 And you go on to answer:
17 "No, that should not have been the case, with the exception of
18 the military police unit. The military police, yes; the rest, no. I
19 assume that is the case, but I'm not sure."
20 Thank you. Bearing in mind the rules we read, could the security
21 organ take from the military police some officers without telling the
22 commander, since we saw that the commander was in command of the military
23 police when we looked at the military police rules?
24 If so required, we might as well go back to it so you can have
25 another look. Thank you.
1 A. No, no need for that. I never studied the rules. I thought it
2 worked like this. I thought it worked as I said during the interview.
3 And that's all I can do, that's the best I can do. Chief of security of
4 the Military Police Company, it was just that once, so I believed that
5 the chief could decide about the manpower. When an individual led the
6 unit, then he could have the individual brought over, secured, and so on
7 and so forth, and that's why I said what I said at the time. Had I had
8 the rules, a copy of the rules right in front of me, had I known what I
9 know now, it probably would have been different.
10 Q. Thank you. Now that you've read the rules, how would you qualify
11 the situation now? How should it be different, and who should be the
12 commander of the military police? Thank you.
13 A. As I said many times, it's all under the command of the brigade
14 commander. Well, now the battalion commanders are in charge of their own
15 battalions, the division commander is in charge of their divisions, the
16 military police company, and so on and so forth. I believe that it was
17 in addition to the chief of security and that he had certain powers, and
18 that he had the authority to command -- or, rather, use -- or, rather,
19 take some of those men for some of those tasks performed by the
20 Military Police Company, and that's all I knew.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Since you know now, can we have D202. Thank you.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Rules on the Responsibilities. Can you please look at the title.
25 It reads "Regulations on the Responsibilities of the Land Army
1 Corps Command in Peacetime."
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please go to page 3 of
3 the English and page 4 in the B/C/S.
4 There, we can see that. Can we please zoom in. Thank you.
6 "Regulations on the Responsibilities of the Land Army
7 Corps Command in Peacetime." And then Article 1 reads:
8 "These regulations prescribe the responsibilities of the Land
9 Army Corps Command.
10 "According to the regulations, the definition of responsibilities
11 shall comprise the rights, obligations, and scope of work of command
12 organs and officers of these organs in the execution of the stipulated
13 work and tasks."
14 Can you now please look at Article 4 and what it says:
15 "Command organs and their officers shall execute work within the
16 scope of responsibility on the basis of the law and other regulations
17 passed pursuant to the law ..."
18 And then the next page, please:
19 "Documents from the competent levels of command and control, as
20 well as provisions of these regulations --"
21 "Provisions of these regulations," I'm sorry, that was a
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. These are regulations; right?
25 And now the third paragraph on page 2 reads:
1 "Command organs may not transfer tasks in their scope of
2 responsibility to other command organs, nor may they take on the tasks of
3 an appropriate organ of a superior or subordinate command, unless they
4 are specially authorised to do so."
5 My question is: We see what the regulations say. Would he have
6 been authorised to transfer his right further up or further down, in
7 keeping with these regulations? Thank you.
8 A. General, sir, I've never studied these rules and regulations. I
9 did what I was ordered to do, and that was all. I was told exactly what
10 to do. And this is not something that was part of my job. I don't know
11 this, nor, indeed, did I ever find out about this. I simply never came
12 across this. I didn't have a copy of these regulations. I don't think
13 I've ever set eyes on them, as a matter of fact. Therefore --
14 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the same relationship exists in the
15 corps command and in the brigade command? Is that correct or not?
16 A. I know nothing about the corps. I can talk about the brigade. I
17 really am not familiar with any of the superior units or commands.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Let's look at page 7 in Serbian and page 6 in English. Thank
21 Please zoom in for the benefit of the witness. Thank you.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Let's look at Article 9 of "Special Provisions," where it says
24 "Commander." Paragraph 2 of "Special Provisions," Article 9 - we can see
25 it in English as well - I quote:
1 "The commander shall command and control subordinate units and
2 institutions within the scope of the responsibility he received. He
3 shall be responsible to his superior for his work and the situation and
4 subordinate units and institutions and for proper and timely execution of
5 work and tasks in the competence of the command organ."
6 My question is this: Does this apply to your command as well?
7 Did your commander command and control subordinated units and
8 institutions in the brigade within the scope of the responsibility he
9 received, and did he transfer his responsibility on to others?
10 A. I really don't know how to answer your question. How do I
11 analyse this in order to be able to answer your question? Please, I
12 cannot speak from the level of the brigade commander or the corps
13 commander. I can't tell you what were their responsibilities, whether
14 they transferred their competences and responsibilities on to their
15 subordinates. It's a matter unknown to me. I don't want to get involved
16 in that. I never knew that.
17 Q. I'm not asking you this for no reason. In your statement, you
18 said that competences were transferred on to the security organ, in terms
19 of the military police. That's what you stated.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 6 -- or, rather,
21 page 7 in English and 8 in Serbian. Let's look at that.
22 Thank you. Let's look at page 8 in Serbian and page 7 in
23 English. Thank you.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. We're looking at Article 6 on the page that you're looking at,
2 and I'm quoting for you. These are all authorities of the commander:
3 "Managing the security service, being responsibile for the
4 security of the command and subordinate units and institutions, and
5 taking measures on the basis of regulations and his responsibility."
6 This is Article 9, bullet point 6.
7 Could your brigade commander transfer his authorities and
8 responsibilities on to somebody else? I'm talking about managing the
9 security service and being responsibile for the security of the command.
10 A. This is the rule of corps command. Please don't ask me about
11 transfer of responsibilities. You're reading articles and rules for
12 corps command. I've told you already that I know nothing about that. I
13 had a list of the activities that I was supposed to carry out. This is
14 just too high up for me. I can't talk about corps, the Main Staff. I
15 can't analyse that. I can't tell you whether somebody had this or that
16 right or responsibility. I've never come across a thing like this
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, first of all, no overlap, please.
20 And the second concern I want to mention is: This witness has now,
21 several times, told you that he is not familiar with these rules, that he
22 can't testify about these rules, he never studied them. You should focus
23 on those areas of his testimony he is familiar with. Otherwise, it could
24 be a waste of time. You will probably receive again and again the same
1 Please continue.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat his question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the brigade, I did maintain
5 the VOB-8 log-book. I've never seen that in the corps command. I know
6 that I did it in brigade, that many others before me and after me did it.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you explain, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, what VOB-8
9 is? What does the abbreviation stand for, and what kind of information
10 does VOB-8 contain?
11 A. This is information for soldiers. Now, after 15 years, I really
12 can't remember what information it contained. I know that there was the
13 name, the first and the family name, the military specialty. Please, you
14 have to understand that I did what I did not because I liked it, but
15 because I had to.
16 Q. Were you ever duty-bound to send your reports to the corps
17 command about what your organ was doing and what the strength of your
18 unit was based on the information contained in VOB-8?
19 A. Reports were sent about the strength of the unit regularly
20 according to a schedule which was given to us.
21 Q. Thank you. When it comes to your superior commands, did they
22 have the same schematic, the same structure, the same obligations, when
23 it came to the filling out of "VOB-8" box, or did other brigades do it
25 A. General, sir, I was a member of the Zvornik Brigade. I know how
1 things were done, in principle, in my brigade. And as for the others, I
2 was never a member of any other brigade. I could never control how they
3 did things. I didn't have an insight into how they did things.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait.
5 Now continue.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did you have to send your reports to the brigade, and did you
8 have to tally your reports with the reports of other brigades so as to
9 make them uniform with other brigades and corps? Thank you.
10 A. General, sir, we sent reports about the strength of the brigade
11 for our brigade. How others did it, whether they did it or not, I don't
12 know. I only know that we sent our reports at the intervals that were
13 requested from us.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you also use all the forms, such as VOB-8, which
15 is a form? Are they used at the same time in brigades and in corps? Did
16 you know that? And in your work, did you have that in mind when you sent
17 your reports?
18 A. I can only assume that all units had to do that in an identical
19 way, that those VOB forms had to be filled out and contain information on
20 all unit members. I suppose that that was the case, but I can't be sure.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.
22 And can we now look at page 10 in Serbian and page 8 in English.
23 Thank you.
24 Article 10 of the same regulations, that's at the very beginning.
25 Can it be zoomed in, please.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. It says:
3 "The chief of staff shall replace the commander when the latter
4 is absent and shall have all rights and duties. If the commander and the
5 chief of staff are both absent at the same time, the commander shall be
6 replaced by the officer assigned on the order of the commander."
7 My question is this: You have just told us that Vinko Pandurevic
8 was absent between the 4th and the 15th, to the best of your
9 recollection. Would you say that Article 10 applied, that the chief of
10 staff shall replace the commander when the latter is absent? So was that
11 the case during the relevant period of time? Thank you.
12 A. When the commander was absent, he was replaced by the chief of
13 staff. When both were absent, as far as I know, it never happened in our
15 Q. Thank you. Is this envisaged by the regulations? It did not
16 need to happen in your brigade, but could it, for example, happen that
17 one was on sick leave and the other was away on business? Is there a
18 rule that envisages such a situation?
19 A. Yes. I'm looking at Article 10, and I can see that this, indeed,
20 is envisaged.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now, while we still have this
23 document on the screen in e-court, can we look at page 30 in English and
24 page 35 in Serbian. Thank you.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. We are looking at Article 7 of this regulation that deals with
2 security organ. Actually, it's Chapter 7. Article 29 of that chapter
3 says, and I quote:
4 "The security organ is a specialised organ of the command for
5 organising and implementing security measures and undertaking other
6 specialised work in the field of security that is placed under its
7 responsibility by special regulations and is, in this regard, responsible
9 "Uncovering and preventing intelligence and other subversive
10 activities of foreign intelligence ..."
11 And so on and so forth.
12 You can read that for yourself. You can see everything.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now let's quickly go to
14 paragraph 9 of Article 29. Could you please quickly show us that bullet
15 point, and then I'll have a question for the witness, where it says:
16 "Expertly directing security organs and the military police in
17 the corps command and units and in other JNA units in the zone of
18 responsibility, organising, directing and co-ordinating their activities,
19 providing assistance, and controlling their work, especially in regard to
20 counter-intelligence work and tasks."
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. And my question is this: Did you have in mind this, when you
23 said there were exceptions to every rule, or did you have something else
24 in mind? If the latter is correct, can you please explain, for the
25 benefit of the Trial Chamber, what it was? Thank you.
1 A. What was read to me were the duties of the security organ of the
2 corps, and I repeat, again and yet again, that I never saw this before, I
3 never read this before. I will never have an opportunity to do it, given
4 my age and everything else. I can't give you any comment with this
5 regard. These are someone's duties, and I can't tell you anything about
6 it because I don't know anything about this. The only thing I can do is
7 just read, and I can tell you I don't know, I'm not familiar, I've never
8 seen -- whether this was, indeed, the case in the brigade command, I
9 don't know. I was never in a security organ, never.
10 Q. Who was in control of what?
11 A. Regarding the article you mentioned, there's a lot more of those.
12 I really can't, I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with the subject-matter. I
13 find it very difficult to find my way around. Any further reading of
14 these corps rules and who was in charge of what is really not helping.
15 I'm not familiar with the substance; it's that simple. I don't know what
16 approach to take when this is read back to me and then you ask me whether
17 this was the case or whether something else was the case. This wasn't my
18 job. I'm not familiar with it. It's very hard for me. It's very
19 unnatural, if you like.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, lines 13 and 14 on page 78 are
21 part of the answer of the witness. That was not the question of
22 Mr. Tolimir.
23 Mr. Tolimir, you have a few minutes left.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Let's look at D294, which was tendered at the beginning of our
1 conversation, page 7 of that document.
2 This is page 8 in English, the bottom of the page. Thank you
3 very much, Aleksandar. The end of page 8 in the English. Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Galic, I'm not angry with you because you don't know the
6 rules. But should you not have said that to the investigators and
7 lawyers when they asked you about the authorities of certain organs that
8 you weren't familiar with, such as this: The third entry "Petrusic,"
9 "Petrusic," "Galic," "Petrusic," "Galic," and then you say -- "Petrusic,"
11 "Therefore, we may conclude that in relation to the category of
12 personnel, the company commander was Miomir Jasikovac in July 1995, and
13 his superior officer along the same line, Drago Nikolic,
14 Colonel [as interpreted] Drago Nikolic?"
15 And your answer was:
17 And then he goes on --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, just a correction for the record.
19 You said, I quote:
20 "And then you say ..."
21 And then the question was quoted by you, but it was not
22 Witness Galic who said that but Mr. Petrusic, the Defence counsel. This
23 is a correction to page 79, line 12, at the end of the line.
24 Please continue.
25 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, just one additional correction for the
2 It says in the English version, at least, that it's Lieutenant
3 Drago Nikolic, whereas I think the record shows "Colonel Drago Nikolic."
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see "Lieutenant Drago Nikolic" in the
5 translation in the English version.
6 MS. HASAN: Sorry, I was referring to the current transcript on
7 LiveNote, where it says, at line 18 of page 79 --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, you are right. In the document, itself, it
9 says "Lieutenant Drago Nikolic." Thank you for the correction.
10 Mr. Tolimir, I think we have to conclude the hearing of today.
11 It's 7.00.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just asking a question based on
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Galic, had you been familiar with the rules, would you have
16 answered the same way, the question asked by Attorney Petrusic and
17 earlier by Investigator Manning?
18 A. I said what I knew. When I didn't know something, I didn't
19 discuss it. I said what I knew at the time.
20 Q. But you go on to say: "Yes, that's right," which means you
21 answer as if you knew? Thank you.
22 A. Because that's what Petrusic told me, the same thing, so that's
24 Q. Just tell us one thing. Did you -- were you led by his question,
25 and that was why you answered the way you answered, or did you really
1 believe that it was like that.
2 A. I was probably led by the nature of the question, and then I
3 simply said, Yes, that's right.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Galic.
5 I wish you a very good rest. Don't be angry with me. We'll
6 continue tomorrow, but you understand I need to ask you all these
7 questions for the record, because all these documents were admitted as
8 OTP documents and they constitute evidence in a court of law. Thank you
9 very much.
10 Have a nice rest and see you back here tomorrow. Thank you very
11 much, Mr. Galic.
12 Thank you, everyone. I'm sorry for continuing for longer than
13 normally required.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 Sir, we have to adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,
16 in the afternoon, at 2.15 in Courtroom III.
17 We adjourn.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of July,
21 2011, at 2.15 p.m.