1 Thursday, 7 July 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
6 We have a delayed start because of some technical problems. I'm
7 afraid they are not resolved. In e-court, we don't have the transcript
8 at the moment, only LiveNote. I hope that some technicians will be able
9 to help us.
10 I would like to ask the parties if you have the same problem.
11 Mr. Gajic.
12 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I had a problem until
13 a moment ago with the LiveNote. But as far as I can see, everything is
14 working now, at least on my computer.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And how is the situation with the Prosecution,
16 Mr. Vanderpuye?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to
19 Our system is working.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Also the transcript in e-court?
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not for the Judges. We should, nevertheless,
24 Before the witness is being brought in, I would like to raise two
25 matters. One has to do with planning of our hearings for the next couple
1 of weeks.
2 Yesterday, the Chamber decided to extend the summer recess for an
3 additional week for an uninterrupted preparation of a possible 98 bis
4 submission by the Defence and to enable members of the teams of the
5 parties of the Prosecution and the Defence to have a longer period for
6 holidays, especially for those, including the members of the team of the
7 Chamber, who want to travel to destinations far away from The Hague. In
8 that case, we will commence in the week of 22nd of August this year,
9 after the summer recess.
10 The remainder of the Prosecution case will then approximately
11 last for two more weeks, hopefully not too much more time, immediately
12 followed by a possible 98 bis submission by the Defence, a response by
13 the Prosecution, and a decision by the Chamber.
14 Is the Defence in a position to indicate if there will be a
15 98 bis submission? And if so, when will the Defence be in a position to
16 indicate how much time you need, after a possible 98 bis decision by the
17 Chamber, for the preparation of a possible Defence case? Is the Defence
18 in a position to give us some information?
19 Mr. Gajic.
20 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm afraid the Defence
21 is unable at this time to provide this information, but we will do our
22 best to do our planning as soon as possible and provide it to the Court.
23 Of course, one of the reasons why we cannot provide it at this moment is
24 that we are facing a very demanding witness very soon,
25 Expert Witness Richard Butler for the Prosecution, and after his
1 testimony we will have a clearer idea of what to do next.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
3 I take it there is some hope that before the summer recess, we
4 would get some more information by the Defence. I think for the moment,
5 this is all we can say about the future schedule.
6 I'm just checking if the transcript is working. Yes, it's
7 working now. Now the transcript in e-court is working also on the
8 screens of the Judges.
9 The witness should be brought in, please.
10 Mr. Vanderpuye, I see you on your feet.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 I just wanted to advise the Chamber that P2461 - this is the
13 document that didn't have a translation up-loaded in e-court yet - the
14 translation has been up-loaded.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will now be in evidence. Thank you
16 very much.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Janc. Our apologies for the
20 delay. We had some technical problems before we could really start the
22 May I remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still
24 Yesterday, the Prosecution tendered three -- no, six intercepts,
25 six documents. The Chamber has considered this application. The Chamber
1 notes that the Defence has no objection to their admission, and,
2 therefore, the Chamber decided to receive these six documents into
4 Mr. Registrar, could you provide us with the numbers, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 5568 shall be
6 assigned Exhibit P2463. 65 ter document 5570 shall be assigned
7 Exhibit P2464. 65 ter document 5573 shall be assigned Exhibit P2465.
8 65 ter document 5579 shall be assigned Exhibit P2466.
9 65 ter document 5580 shall be assigned Exhibit P2467. And, finally,
10 65 ter document 5582 shall be assigned Exhibit P2468. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Tolimir, you may now continue your cross-examination.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 I would like to greet everyone present. I wish peace unto this
15 house, and may this day in court and the final judgement reflect God's
16 will. May there be -- may the proceedings end in keeping with God's
17 will, not mine.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I will pick up where we left off yesterday concerning what
21 Chief of Staff General Rose said concerning the allegations of the
22 American service and the information that leaked from American sources to
23 the Bosnian government.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir's microphone be brought
25 closer to him, please.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you have information that representatives of the UNPROFOR
3 shared information with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. No, I have no such information.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Could we call up in e-court D189, marked for identification.
7 Thank you very much.
8 Could we rotate it.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. This is a dispatch from the State Security Sector in Gorazde,
11 dated 18 June. It reads:
12 "The MUP of Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the
13 State Security chief." Then: "Reference." And the text goes:
14 "Concerning your request in the above telegram, we hereby advise
15 you that we conducted an interview with Colonel Roger from the BritBat."
17 "In this interview Roger confirmed the information we had
18 received from Officer Allen and said that regrouping of aggressor forces,
19 two to three brigades strong, had been observed in the area of Trnovo.
20 He also said this should not concern us because, according to his
21 assessment, there were about 1500 to 1600 aggressor soldiers?"
22 Signed: "Midhat Senovic, chief of the State Security Sector."
23 Now, is it evident from this dispatch that BritBat intelligence
24 officers were sharing information with the BH Army, thus taking sides in
25 the conflict?
1 A. Yes, from this document we can see that they were in contact with
2 the BiH side and that they shared certain information with them.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Could we now call up D188, also MFI'd.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The last document we just have seen on the screen
6 was MFI'd. I don't know why it was MFI'd.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was tendered, but not admitted into evidence
10 Mr. Gajic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was not translated.
12 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will tender all
13 this after Mr. Tolimir finishes his questioning, and then we would deal
14 with this issue, with your leave. Translations were missing, and there
15 were some other problems.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The other problems, I was told by the Registry,
17 were that there was no witness yet to identify and authenticate the
18 previous document. We will see whether you will tender this document
20 Go ahead, please, Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 I would now like to call up D188, also MFI'd.
23 Thank you. Now we have it on the screen. It's poorly legible.
24 It's another date from the State Security Service Sector in Gorazde,
25 dated 2nd of July, 1995. I'll quote from the first page. This is sent
1 to an assistant minister and head of the State Security Service in
3 "We hereby inform you that on 1st July 1995, Colonel John Riley,
4 UNPROFOR commander in Gorazde, invited us to a short informal visit,
5 indicating that he was happy to share with us some information he had
6 obtained in a telephone conversation with General Smith."
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].
8 Q. After this first quotation, can we see that this officer was
9 collecting certain intelligence while being UNPROFOR commander in Gorazde
10 in a certain way, and that he is making promises to share that
11 information which he had obtained from General Smith?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. I quote from the second paragraph:
14 "On this occasion, Colonel John told us that Karadzic's
15 terrorists, with a view to relieving their forces around Sarajevo,
16 planned to launch an attack in the area of Sapna and Kalesija in the next
17 few days (he didn't know exactly when)."
18 It goes on to say:
19 "Further in the conversation, Colonel John indicated the
20 possibility that in the coming period, following extensive mobilisation,
21 Karadzic's terrorists were planning ..."
22 And then I can't read the text that follows. But then it says:
23 "... attack enclaves in Eastern Bosnia. According to
24 General Smith, there are two alternatives, two variants of the Chetnik
25 plans, the first to carry out an attack and take control of Srebrenica
1 and Zepa, which according to the Chetniks is an easier task, and the
2 other being to attack and take control of Gorazde, which is a more
3 difficult task, bearing in mind the fact that the Chetniks engaged about
4 10.000 troops in the attack on Gorazde in April 1994 without being able
5 to enter the town."
6 "We note that in a similar situation in May 1995,
7 Colonel John Riley informed us that on a specific day, Tuzla would be
8 shelled, which proved perfectly correct, and we duly informed you about
10 My question is: Can we see from this report that the UNPROFOR
11 commander in Gorazde is sharing intelligence and information he obtained
12 through his command concerning the strength of the forces of
13 Republika Srpska, forces to which they refer as the aggressor?
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. Thank you. I would have another question.
16 Did you notice in the last paragraph, it's a reference to a
17 shelling of Tuzla that is yet to happen? Is it possible to know
18 something that hasn't happened yet unless you are, yourself, involved in
19 that operation?
20 A. It's possible that you have intelligence on what is planned.
21 On -- for example, here we have information that Tuzla will be shelled in
22 the future, and this might be coming out of some intelligence. And this
23 incident then, indeed, took place, so it means that the intelligence was
24 precise. It doesn't necessarily mean that you should be involved in this
1 Q. Thank you. Can we then doubt the authenticity of this document,
2 since you've just said that there was information that turned out to be
4 A. There are several ways how to prove the authenticity of any
5 document, and also, in this regard, one of the ways is also checking what
6 is written there and how accurate that is. And I can say, for this
7 document, that it looks authentic to me, yes, although it would be always
8 better to talk and -- to the source of this document first to confirm
9 exactly how it was produced, when, and by whom.
10 Q. Thank you. We would like to do that, too, but the Prosecution
11 did not bring such witnesses, and we cannot call them because they don't
12 want to come when invited by us.
13 Judge Mindua asked yesterday, after you said you doubt the
14 veracity of certain information provided by the Army of Republika Srpska,
15 he asked for what reason, and you said that you were drawn to that
16 conclusion by the fact that I said that information was sometimes
17 deliberately distorted and there was a lot of deliberate misinformation.
18 I would like to ask you: Is it quite normal and usual to try to deceive
19 and dis-inform the enemy in the course of an air battle?
20 A. I would say it's normal. But based on my expertise, which is a
21 little bit different than yours, I can't say and confirm how often would
22 that happen. So but from what I know and what I gained throughout the
23 investigation here, I know that such issues occurred as well, so -- but I
24 can't be more precise than that because I'm not a big expert in
25 intelligence -- intelligence services.
1 Q. Thank you. But please tell us -- the information we read
2 yesterday when you said that, that was information from the Main Staff,
3 sent exclusively to the Army of Republika Srpska. The person who
4 processed the information, are they allowed to send misinformation to
5 their own troops or are they allowed to send misinformation only to enemy
6 troops? Thank you.
7 A. I think, generally speaking, it's always better that you have or
8 you provide the accurate information to your own troops, unless you want
9 to do something which you don't want your troops would know in advance.
10 So everything is possible, but in generally speaking, yes, most
11 information, I assume, are correct which are provided to your troops.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I just would like to make one
14 You said:
15 "... we cannot call these witnesses because they don't want to
16 come when invited by us."
17 I think you are well informed about your rights in preparation of
18 the Defence case. There may be some reluctance by certain persons you
19 want to have in court, but you know if you call them, if you would
20 include them in your 65 ter witness list, there are measures to be taken
21 by the Court to bring them to The Hague and to testify here pursuant to
22 our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. So it's up to you to decide if you
23 want to call them. I just want to make this very clear on the record.
24 Please continue.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for these
1 instructions and guide-lines.
2 Could we now have D248 on e-court.
3 And before that, I tender the two documents we used. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, can you help me? Have you ever seen
5 this document which is on the screen now and the previous one you were
6 asked about the content?
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it's quite possible I've seen them
8 before, because they are part of the OTP collection, but I can't confirm
9 for the fact right now that these are the two that I reviewed during the
10 my work for the OTP here.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Have you any information how this document and
12 the previous one came into the possession of the OTP?
13 THE WITNESS: No, right now I can't say anything about how the
14 OTP came into possession of these documents. For that, I would need to
15 take a look into the electronic database to see how did we receive them.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you know anything about Colonel John Riley?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think he was commander of the UNPROFOR
18 troops in Gorazde at the time. But, again, I would need to check and
19 confirm that, checking the records.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Vanderpuye, I saw you on your feet.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think you quite covered some of my concerns,
23 Mr. President. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What are your concerns? What is your position in
25 relation to the tendering of these two documents?
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: We don't have an objection to it, in light of --
2 in light of the questioning that's been conducted by the Court concerning
3 Mr. Janc' familiarity with at least some of the content of the material.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both documents will now be received into
7 evidence, D188 and D189.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these documents have been admitted
9 into evidence. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 I asked for D248, point 209 of that document. Thank you. 61 in
12 English and 77 in Serbian. Thank you.
13 Thank you, Aleksandar.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "The security of the armed forces
16 in the course of the war."
17 In item 209, we have a definition of the degree of veracity of
18 intelligence which may be accurate, probable, dubious or false. And then
19 it says:
20 "Accurate intelligence is intelligence whose credibility is
21 corroborated with evidence. In most cases, it is confirmed by several
22 sources or obtained from the gathering organs or a single reliable
23 source, or from gathering organs several times."
24 Thank you.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. As you answered this question more or less in the same way as
2 described in this book, just tell us whether you and I have given a
3 proper definition and always spoken of the veracity of documents in line
4 with the fact that they have to be corroborated in practice.
5 A. Yes, correct, I can agree with you.
6 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, there was mention here of a letter to
7 van Baal, sent by General Milovanovic. That was 65 ter, I think, 774,
8 but I'm not sure. My legal adviser will check this.
9 Please, while we are waiting for the document to come up: You
10 will recall that there was a dispute there because van Baal was detained
11 at a check-point, and he complained to General Milovanovic. My question
12 is as follows: Are you aware, as you have read the agreement on control
13 of movement on the territory of Republika Srpska, on the basis of the
14 documents you have studied, was personal property subject to inspection
15 and control? Thank you.
16 A. I'm not quite sure now. I would need to check or to see the
17 actual agreement again to find this provision there, if it is there.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. It's P2443. Can it be
19 brought up in e-court. Thank you.
20 Yesterday, it was shown as 7445. Perhaps there is a translation.
21 Now we see there's no translation. It's an UNPROFOR document written on
22 the 18th of July, 1994, where General van Baal says that on the 15th of
23 July, he was detained at the check-point. They wanted to look at his
24 personal things, and he refused. And he wrote about this, complaining to
25 General Milovanovic. Based on this, Milovanovic sent him a letter
1 apologising for the inconvenience he had undergone.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. My question is: Based on these documents, can you answer my
4 question or do we need to look at the agreement on movement, 977 -- or,
5 rather, D77?
6 Could we look at D77 to make it easier for the witness to answer
7 the question. Thank you.
8 Thank you. We see only the English version now. Ah, here is the
9 Serbian version.
10 This document was drawn up in the Main Staff of the Sarajevo
11 Forward Command on the principles of freedom of movement. Please glance
12 through it so you can answer the questions.
13 And can you see that it says that personal property will not be
14 checked? After you've read page 1, please ask to be shown page 2. Thank
16 A. First, before I start reading this, I would like to point out
17 this document is dated 31st of January, 1995, so it's most probably
18 agreement which entered into force after that date. And this incident
19 with General van Baal happened in July 1994, so we don't know what kind
20 of agreement was in force at that time. So I can read this and confirm
21 what's written here, but it still doesn't answer the question if this
22 was, indeed, the case, the same regulations were in place at the time of
23 the incident.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you should continue.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 If you have read this, could we turn to page 2. Could e-court
3 show page 2, please.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. My question is as follows: Is there anything in this agreement
6 about personal property of those passing through check-points not being
7 checked? Thank you.
8 A. I think on the first page, there is a provision that goods which
9 are in vehicles together with the convoy should be checked, and if
10 anything which is not on the list approved beforehand is found can be
11 confiscated. That, I think, is a provision there. So it's not that
12 precise regarding personal belongings.
13 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of any agreement, signed on the
14 territory of the former SFRY during the war, where an exception was made
15 for personal belongings when dealing with check-points and the control of
16 goods and people passing through check-points?
17 A. I don't have any agreement in mind right now, but I do remember,
18 for example, convoy notifications and approvals from the VRS side
19 allowing, for example, the UNPROFOR staff to carry their own weapons, for
20 example, through check-points, something like that. I do remember such
22 Q. Thank you. My question is: Were personal weapons visible, were
23 they easy to see, and therefore they could be checked visually? You
24 would know this?
25 A. Most -- in most occasions, yes, I would say you would see these
1 personal weapons which is carried by -- by the soldiers. They would be
2 visible, yes, but sometimes not, because you can carry it under cover.
3 Q. Thank you. Does it say here that goods not reported beforehand
4 can be confiscated, and would concealed weapons be included?
5 A. It's difficult to say what "goods" would entail. I would say for
6 sure what was part of the transport. What was carrying through the
7 check-point, if that entail also the confiscated weapons, I'm not sure,
8 based on this document only.
9 Q. Thank you. Are you aware whether members of UNPROFOR could carry
10 three or four or five rifles into an area and then come back with only
12 A. I don't know how much -- actually, how many rifles they could
13 carry, so I think that was part of agreement -- part of an agreement
14 between UNPROFOR and your side, so for them, to how many rifles they can
16 Q. Thank you. As in this case we were not dealing with weapons, but
17 personal documents, I have no further questions on this.
18 Yesterday, you were shown 65 ter 05598. I didn't manage to note
19 down the number under which it was admitted. It's 65 ter 05598.
20 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 5598 has been admitted into
21 evidence under Exhibit P2460. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please repeat. Your microphone was
25 not switched on.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 I asked for document P2460 to be brought up on the screen.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. We can see this document. Yesterday, your attention was drawn by
5 the Prosecutor to line 17, where it says that there was a farewell
6 ceremony in Banja Luka for 17 retiring generals of the VRS. Do you
7 remember this?
8 A. Yes, I do remember.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Along with this document, there is
10 also P4621 [as interpreted].
11 Could we have P4621, please.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you recognise this document, as it was admitted into evidence
14 yesterday? It's P --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is P2461.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P2461.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do recognise it, yes.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Please, is the title "Relieved of the Hitherto Duty and Placed at
20 the Disposal of the Yugoslav Army":
21 "Tolimir (son of Stanko) Zdravko ... born on the 27th of
22 November, 1948"?
23 So is he being pensioned off or is he being placed at the
24 disposal of the Yugoslav Army?
25 A. I think it would be better to say that he was placed at the
1 disposal of the Yugoslav Army, and at the same time you were relieved of
2 duty from the VRS army.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Could we now have 05525 on the 65 ter list of the Prosecutor. I
5 didn't note down the number under which it was admitted. Thank you.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is Exhibit P2437. Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Based on this document, you confirmed that I was a major general
9 as of the year 1994; is that right?
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May it be admitted into evidence?
12 Thank you.
13 Could we now have 1D00196 [as interpreted]. Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, these documents are already in
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Yes, I just want the witness to see them. 1D00916. Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now you have given two different numbers. Could
19 you please correct -- tell us which is the correct one?
20 Mr. Gajic.
21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] The last number on the transcript,
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. My question is: Have you found, among the documents, this decree
1 of the president of Republika Srpska terminating service in the Army of
2 Republika Srpska in order to retire and move to the reserve force a
3 certain number of troops and officers? One of them is General Tolimir.
4 A. Yes, I think I've seen this document before.
5 Q. Thank you. This is a document dated 17 October 1997 -- sorry,
6 1995. My question is: Can we see, from the title of the document, that
7 a general can also be transferred from active service to the reserve
9 A. Yes, that -- that's what it says here, yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 I tender this document.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D916 shall be
14 assigned Exhibit D298. Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. You were shown yesterday 65 ter 05549 that received
17 Exhibit P2455.
18 May I call it up now in e-court.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is behind tab 7 of the binder we received
21 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see this document on the
24 screen. It says that on the 30th June, General Tolimir is standing in
25 for General Mladic and is approving a certain request.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My question is: Did you have any other documents to make the
3 claim that General Tolimir was standing in for General Mladic?
4 A. Apart from a document which was also drafted by the authorities
5 of the Republic of Croatia, that intelligence report, we have no other
6 documents related to this issue.
7 Q. Thank you. In this document that is before us, a document that
8 you used and the Prosecutor tried to use as a basis to prove that I was
9 standing in for General Mladic, is there any solid information about that
10 or is it just a comment by the intercept operator?
11 A. In this intercept, which is a summary, actually, of the actual
12 conversation, we only see in brackets -- I can say the comment of the
13 intercept operator, that General Tolimir is "standing in for
14 General Mladic." But we cannot conclude from that, what is in brackets,
15 if that was actually said during the conversation or how that intercept
16 operator concluded that.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you have, among your documents, reports from the
18 Main Staff dated 30th June or the next date, 31st of June, and could you
19 see on these documents who signed combat reports and other documents? Do
20 you have ERN numbers for these combat reports?
21 A. I'm sure we have a lot of documents from around these dates and
22 also, I'm sure, some from that date, and, yeah, I would need to take a
23 look into the documents, who signed them. And I think I've checked for
24 your name and I couldn't see your name as a signatory on that date,
25 except, I think, on that intelligence report.
1 Q. Thank you. Then we will not waste time looking for those ERN
2 numbers. If you had found them, you would have certainly provided them.
3 Let me ask you: If I was standing in for General Mladic, would
4 it have been logical for me to sign documents on his behalf as well, and
5 have you found such signatures anywhere?
6 A. Yes, it would be logical you would sign these documents for him
7 if you are standing in, but the problem here is that we certainly don't
8 have the entire collection, all documents which you produced on these
9 dates in our collection. So we have a lot of documents which are missing
10 from your collection, so we don't know, actually, what was signed on that
11 date. The second problem is that we don't need -- that we don't know,
12 from this intercept, for how long you have been standing in. Was that
13 for one day, several hours on that day, or a few consecutive days? So
14 these are the problems. And if General Mladic was missing for only a few
15 hours or one day, it's not necessary you would find any document, because
16 perhaps no documents were provided on that day that would need any
17 signature. So it's just my speculation, but we don't have any such
19 Q. Thank you. When the commander is not in the area of
20 responsibility, in this case Republika Srpska, whereas his chief of staff
21 is present, do you know that nobody else is allowed to stand in for the
22 commander but the chief of staff? Do you know that rule?
23 A. Yes, I think I know that rule, yes, and I'm sure that the witness
24 following me will be in a much better position to explain this, better
25 than me.
1 Q. We'll ask the witness who comes after you, but just tell me your
2 opinion about this.
3 P244 is the next document I would like to call up in e-court,
4 Article 10.
5 It's the wrong number. Sorry.
6 While my adviser finds the right number, let us look at
7 65 ter 05827, a document you used to try to prove what was contained in
8 the intercept.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you remember that? That's a report from the
11 Intelligence Administration of the Croatian Army from 31st July.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is now P2459. No, sorry, P2458.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just look now at P2458.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone is off.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Is this a report from the Intelligence Administration of the
20 Army of Croatia, dated 30th July 1995?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let us look at paragraph 1. It reads:
23 "After the successful attack by the Croatian Army and the
24 Croatian Defence Council on the Grahovo-Glamoc front-line, and the
25 creation of prerequisites for directly threatening Knin, the local Serb
1 population is still obviously in fear and panic, which are intensified by
2 the news of the HV grouping forces and preparing to attack the entire RSK
4 According to this intelligence, did the Croatian Army attack
5 Republika Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina before the 30th July, as
6 this report says?
7 A. Yeah, it's possible that it was also before, but not necessarily.
8 It might be also on that day, on 30 of July.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the sake of the record, this report from the
10 Intelligence Administration is dated "Zagreb, 31st of July 1995," and
11 it's called an intelligence report for the 30th of July, 1995.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is
13 the 31st of July, then.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Let us look now at page 2, because it's important, since you said
16 that General Tolimir was sent to Glamoc and Grahovo because they had been
18 We can now see it.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the English, it should be page 3, I suppose.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It's
21 page 3.
22 Thank you, Aleksandar.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Let us look at this section headed "Bosanska Grahovo and Glamoc
25 area." Let us look at the fifth paragraph below the heading. It says:
1 "During the day, General Tolimir (chief of security) and
2 General Djukic (assistant commander for logistics) from the VRS
3 Main Staff have been sent to the Grahovo-Glamoc front-line in order to
4 consolidate the situation and undertake measures to consolidate the
5 forces. For this purpose, a special team will be set up on the -- in the
6 assembly area of the 2nd Krajina Corps in Drvar, in keeping with the
7 directive of Mr. Karadzic."
8 It says --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters be given the next page
10 in English.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. It goes on to say:
13 "In addition to staffing reinforcements in the command of the SVK
14 and VRS commands, these commands carried out activities to prepare and
15 bring in reinforcement to ensure conditions for launching a
16 counter-attack on HV forces ..."
17 Et cetera.
18 Can we see from this that Tolimir was, indeed, sent to the area
19 of Grahovo and Glamoc?
20 A. Yes, it's written there that you were sent along with
21 General Djukic.
22 Q. Thank you. Is it an unlawful activity to send two generals into
23 their native places in order to organise forces for defence against the
24 Croatian aggression that had been launched at the time against Grahovo
25 and Glamoc? Would that be illegal, wrong?
1 A. No, there is nothing wrong with it. I think it is legitimate.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the next page
3 of this document.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let us look at the next page, because this document no longer
6 refers to the units of the Army of Republika Srpska. It deals, down
7 below, with units of the Croatian Army.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page do you want to have on the screen?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone, please, microphone.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last page. The last page, to
12 see who signed the document.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's the penultimate page in English.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Was this signed by the chief of the Intelligence Service of the
16 Croatian Army, Rear Admiral Davor Domazet, also known as Loso?
17 A. On the document, we can see a typed signature of this individual,
19 Q. Thank you. Can we see on this page that the document was sent to
20 a number of addresses, officials and leaders of the Croatian Army and the
21 defence ministry?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The Prosecutor asked you, in examination-in-chief, whether
24 authenticity is also confirmed that it was sent -- by the fact that it
25 was sent to a number of persons. My question is: Can the veracity of
1 anything be judged on the basis of the number of addressees or does it
2 have to be confirmed by double-checking and further corroborating
4 A. It is always better to be confirmed by double-checking and
5 further corroborating.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Could we now look at a report dated 30th July that you also
8 used -- or the 31st July that was also used by the Prosecution to prove
9 authenticity. 65 ter 7450, that's the number I noted down. I'm not sure
10 if it's correct.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is now P2456.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 This is a report from 1 July 1995. We can see the Croatian word
14 for "July" here. Let us see the second page now, where it says
15 "Bosnian Grahovo and Glamoc area." Thank you.
16 Q. The subheading is "Other Activities." It says:
17 "After our meeting with the commander of the UN forces for
18 ex-Yugoslavia, General Brinkman, on 29 June in Zvornik, General Mladic
19 left for Belgrade and, during that day, spent time at the Main Staff of
20 the Army of Yugoslavia. During his stay in Belgrade, he is also
21 scheduled for a medical check-up at the Military Medical Academy because
22 of Mladic's kidney problems. In his absence, General Mladic will be
23 replaced by the chief of staff -- by the chief of security of the
24 Main Staff of the VRS, General Tolimir."
25 Those people who are making this claim, do they have any grounds
1 for it or are they just blindly accepting the comment made by the
2 intercept operator? Have you seen any primary-source document on this?
3 A. From information we can see on the screen now, we can't say what
4 was the source for the Government of Croatia to put this information into
5 this intelligence report, so we can't say was that, for example, an
6 intercept or any other independent intelligence, other information they
7 obtained through other means.
8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, does one appoint a replacement if one is
9 just going for a medical check-up? Is it something that takes a long
10 time or is it just a very brief absence, perhaps shorter than the meeting
11 General Mladic had in Belgrade?
12 A. I can't say for how long this medical check would be needed, so
13 it might be several hours or even shorter or longer period.
14 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't receive any interpretation at the
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's apology. We did not turn on
18 the microphone.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please repeat, Mr. Tolimir.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was asking: Has the witness
21 found any documents, in his capacity as investigator, from which we could
22 see what General Mladic was doing the next day? Did he have any
23 communication with the commanders, and UNPROFOR, and other forces in his
24 area of responsibility?
25 THE WITNESS: I would need to double-check that. I'm sure I've
1 seen some reports or some information that he is back at the beginning of
2 July already. But for exact dates and exact information, I would need to
3 take a look into further documents.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Have you perhaps seen a document saying that General Mladic
6 returned the very next day and pursued his regular activities after that
7 medical check-up at the Military Medical Academy in Belgrade?
8 A. I can't recall that document right now, but if you have it
9 available, I would like to see it and I can comment it on if I came
10 across this document before.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Just briefly, I noted that at page -- at the end of page 27, line
14 25, into page 28, line 2, the witness stated that he had some information
15 that General Mladic was back at the beginning of July already. And in
16 the context of this line of questioning, we're talking already about the
17 end of July, so I just wanted to clarify that. My inclination is that
18 the witness was -- meant to say the end of August, but maybe he can
19 clarify that just so the record is clear. Or, rather, the beginning of
20 August, I think.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, could you clarify that? To which date
22 or time-period were you referring?
23 THE WITNESS: I was correct, actually. I was referring to July,
24 and I still think that you're talking about July, because the document in
25 front of us is dated 29 of June, when he's going to Belgrade. So he's
1 back in Bosnia at the beginning of July.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Tolimir, are you able to finish your cross-examination before
4 the break? We started a bit later, so that we are now -- we should have
5 the break five minutes before 4.00. I just want to inquire your
6 position. How much additional time do you need?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's better to go on the break, and
8 then after the break I have perhaps just two or three more questions, if
9 you allow me. But if you don't allow it, I can finish now, since the
10 witness has answered this question.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's no need to stop you in your
12 cross-examination. I just wanted to inquire if it's better to have the
13 break now or if you're able to finish.
14 We will take our break now, and we will resume 20 minutes past
16 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I would like e-court to show P2458, document P2458. Thank you.
21 Please, for the sake of the record, let us say that this is
22 information dated the 31st of July, as it says here.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So that's July; is that right? Thank you.
25 A. Yes, for this document, it's dated 31st of July, 1995.
1 Q. Thank you. Could we look at page 2 now. Thank you. It's page 3
2 in English.
3 In the third paragraph, can we also see that it says, the 30th of
5 "The communications system between Knin and Drvar which
6 previously also included Grahovo and Glamoc, attempts are being made to
7 redirect it, and this system must be ready to work by 2400 hours on 30th
8 of July"?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now have the
11 next page. Thank you.
12 So let's look at page 4 in the Serbian language and page 8 in
13 English so as to avoid discussing areas not covered by the
14 examination-in-chief. Thank you.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone, please.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Let's look at the chapter dealing with the 7th Knin Corps. It
19 says here, in the last paragraph:
20 "With regard to providing security during the visit by
21 General Mladic and Patriarch Pavle, a police unit (company) from Knin has
22 not been sent to the Dinara area (Jancija Glava - elevation 1525), and it
23 is estimated that it will be sent to the said area after the
24 above-mentioned officials arrive."
25 My question is as follows: Is it evident from this that
1 General Mladic visited Knin immediately after being in Belgrade,
2 according to what it says here?
3 A. According to what it says in this document, which is from 31st of
4 July, 1995, we can see that and conclude that General Mladic was in Knin
5 area. But what we cannot say from this document is that he was in
6 Belgrade before -- just before that. He was in Belgrade at the end of
7 June 1995, based on the previous document, so it's one month of
9 Q. Thank you, all right. And can you see what it says here, "The
10 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska"? It's the next page in
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Does it say that on the 31st of July, a meeting would be held in
14 Mrkonjic Grad between General Mladic and General Smith? Thank you.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to page 2 now. Thank you. It's page 3
17 in English. Thank you.
18 In the third -- or, rather, fourth paragraph, it says:
19 "During the day, General Tolimir (chief of security) and
20 General Djukic (assistant commander for logistics) from the Main Staff
21 have been sent to the Grahovo-Glamoc front-line in order to consolidate
22 the situation and undertake measures to consolidate the forces."
23 So that's the 2nd Corps in Drvar. Does it transpire from this
24 that General Tolimir and General Mladic were on the territory of the
25 Drvar Corps together on those dates, the dates mentioned here?
1 A. I can't say from the document that they were down there together,
2 but they were both at that area at around same time, end of July, on
3 30 July and 31st of July, 1995.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Could we now see 296, D -- 2D26 [as interpreted], page 16 in
6 Serbian and English.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please repeat the number.
8 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We didn't receive the English translation of the
10 number. Please repeat.
11 Mr. Gajic, you may help us.
12 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] D296.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. As we can see, it is the interview you had with Mile Micic, and
16 it says here: "I am Dusan Janc," where you are introducing yourself.
17 And you mentioned this yesterday in the course of your examination.
18 Thank you.
19 So now look at page 16, please. Thank you.
20 We can see the first page here -- or, rather, page 16 - thank
21 you - the first paragraph, where it says Mile Micic, whom you
22 interviewed, was asked how long the operation lasted, and he says:
23 "... I don't know exactly, but maybe around seven to ten days."
24 So he's speculating, he's speculating about the time-period.
25 "... until the moment when Grahovo and Glamoc fell, and I think
1 that was at the end of July or the very beginning of August. Then, from
2 Boksanica or from the surroundings of Zepa, we went to Banja Luka or
4 Do you recall that Mile Micic said this to you when you were
5 interviewing him in the OTP premises in Sarajevo in 2009? Thank you.
6 A. Yes, I do remember that, and I can confirm that he said that
7 during the interview.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told that perhaps some translation issue
11 was on the first page. As you are just dealing with dates of this
12 interview in 2009, you should have a look on pages 1 in both versions and
13 to check if there's anything wrong with it.
14 If you look at the headline, it is said "Interview with
15 Mile Micic Conducted in the OSCE Offices in Banja Luka on the 24th of
16 August, 2009." In the B/C/S, it is the 17th of November, 2009. There
17 seems to be a certain inconsistency.
18 First, Mr. Gajic - he was the first on his feet - and then
19 Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 Mr. Gajic.
21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we noticed the
22 discrepancy. Mr. Elderkin from the OTP told me a few days ago that this
23 is a mistranslation. Perhaps the witness could clarify on what date this
24 interview was held, whether it was the 17th of November or the 24th of
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 That is my understanding as well. I had a chance to speak to
5 Mr. Elderkin a few days ago, but I think the date, as you can see in the
6 text of the interviews, themselves, is translated -- is properly
7 reflected in the content of the interview, rather than in the headings
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, we see at the beginning "EG," it seems to
10 be Erin Gallagher - is referring to November the 17th at 3.10 in the
12 Mr. Janc, do you recall when this interview was conducted?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. From -- it was on 17 November
14 2009, and it was conducted at the Sarajevo Field Office, not in
15 Banja Luka.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The field office is located in Sarajevo; is that
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
20 After this clarification, you may continue, Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
22 like to thank everyone.
23 Let's go back to page 16 now, which we were looking at before
24 this intervention.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You go on to ask Mile Micic:
2 "Just the two of you?"
3 He says:
4 "We went to Banja Luka or Drvar."
5 He says:
6 "Just the two of you?"
7 He says: "Yes."
8 You say:
9 "And how long did you stay at that area, then?"
10 "At which area?" he said.
11 And you said:
12 "To Banja Luka and Drvar."
13 And he says:
14 "All the time until the Dayton Peace Agreement was signed,
15 because the general was in -- I don't want to say team, but in that
16 delegation. He left some 10 days before the Dayton Peace Agreement was
17 signed, and I returned from that area sometime around the 1st of
19 Please, tell me, do you recall that the witness said this, and
20 can you confirm that this is what he actually told you? Thank you.
21 A. Yes, I do recall that, and I can confirm that's what he told us.
22 And everything can be double-checked because this interview was
23 tape-recorded, so everything is on a tape.
24 Q. Thank you. We ask you this because this witness left earlier
25 because of some problems. He was not cross-examined, so we didn't get
1 the chance to ask him this, but you have now confirmed it.
2 Thank you for all the replies you have given to the questions put
3 to you. The Defence thanks you. God bless you, and good fortune in your
4 future work. Thank you.
5 Mr. President, the Defence has finished its cross-examination of
6 this witness. I wish to thank everyone who participated in this
7 testimony. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
9 Just one clarification.
10 You said that you didn't get the chance to ask him this. You
11 know it was your decision not to cross-examine the witness. So you had
12 the chance, but you didn't use the chance, just for the sake of the
14 Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very briefly, Mr. President.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
17 Q. Mr. Janc, you may recall -- I don't have the transcript reference
18 here handy, but I think we all recall that you were asked some questions
19 concerning General Tolimir, in respect of an intercept, asking you some
20 things about standing in for General Mladic. Do you recall that part of
21 your testimony?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And the intercept I'm thinking of, which I think was referred to,
24 was the 30 June 1995 intercept. Yes, it's at page 19, line 20 through
25 23, where you asked -- the exhibit number is P2455, this 30 June
1 intercept. And, in particular, you were asked about the circumstances
2 under which an individual would stand in for the commander. Do you
3 recall that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. You replied that it was not clear from the intercept how long or
6 how short a period of time General Tolimir might have been standing in
7 for General Mladic. Do you recall the testimony, perchance, of
8 Ljubomir Obradovic in this case concerning the assignment or appointment
9 of a stand-in in the commander's absence or in the absence of the
10 commander as well as the chief of staff?
11 A. I can remember him testifying here, but I can't recall this exact
12 portion of his testimony.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would just refer the Trial Chamber to
14 transcript pages 11936 through 937, and he was asked, in particular in
15 the context of whether he was present at the Main Staff in 1995, whether
16 he was aware of Mladic being absent. And in response, he indicated that:
17 "When the commander goes somewhere, he appoints one of his
18 assistants to stand in for him during his absence."
19 And then he goes on to name the various assistants in the
20 Main Staff Command.
21 And then further on, he says -- and this is at transcript
22 page 12019 to 12020, when he was questioned by the Presiding Judge. He
23 basically said that if the chief of staff is temporarily absent and the
24 commander has to go away, then he will select one of his assistants
25 that's present to stand in for him while he's away.
1 Given Mr. Obradovic's testimony, does that in any way inform your
2 answer with respect to General Tolimir's questions about the propriety of
3 his apparently standing in for General Mladic on the 30th of June, as
4 indicated in the intercept?
5 A. Yes, this would support the intercept, itself, that he -- it's
6 possible that he has been standing in at that point in time.
7 Q. Did you find anything, when you were looking at this material,
8 that contradicts that intercept, or, actually, any of the intercepts that
9 you looked at?
10 A. No, I think I did not.
11 Q. You were asked a series of questions by General Tolimir, as you
12 may recall, about another intercept. I have the 65 ter number as 5544,
13 but I know it was admitted. It's P2452. This was an intercept which
14 involved the use of a translator, and there was some issue made about a
15 designation in a MUP intercept indicating that it had been translated
16 from English. Do you recall that part of your testimony?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. In particular, you were asked a question about a certain
19 Svetlana, and that is, thankfully, pointed out at page 16152, lines 9
20 through 12, and then you were asked about that on cross-examination as
22 I want to show you P698 in relation to your answers concerning
23 the questions put to you by General Tolimir about who Svetlana was, who
24 did she interpret for, whether she interpreted on the UNPROFOR side or on
25 the VRS side. And I believe you answered that you thought that she
1 interpreted for the UNPROFOR side; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, correct.
3 Q. And this was at transcript page 16214, line -- it looks like line
4 11. And here we were able to identify a few intercepts in evidence in
5 this case - one is P698, another is P702 - and here you can see a
6 reference to Svetlana. This is from 9 July, at 1240 hours, and you can
7 see her directly referenced in this intercept. Is this the same Svetlana
8 that you had in mind in answering those questions?
9 A. Yes, correct, and I think that I also referred to a conversation
10 between General Nicolai and General Tolimir.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honours, we have an audio of this
12 recording. I don't know if you'd be interested in hearing it. But in
13 that audio-recording - and it does involve General Tolimir and
14 General Nicolai, mediated by Svetlana - I think you will be able to hear
15 some English spoken in that intercept, and perhaps that may be helpful to
16 the Trial Chamber, in terms of Mr. Janc' testimony concerning his views
17 on the MUP intercept that was the subject of some discussion. It is in
18 evidence already, so if it's of interest to the Trial Chamber, I'll be
19 happy to play it out. It's about four or five minutes long. But if not,
20 then I'm happy to conclude my redirect examination at this point.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said it is already in evidence. Under this P
22 number, 698, or with a different exhibit number?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: The one that's on the screen at the moment looks
24 like P702, but also there's P698. They're both audio recordings, and
25 I can play either one of them, I think, with the assistance of the Court.
1 But since they're both admitted, it's really -- I'll leave it in your
2 hands, and you can let me know what you prefer.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there's no need to spend five minutes
5 with that. It is in evidence. It can be checked by the parties and, of
6 course, by the Chamber in finding our findings. Thank you very much.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: That concludes my redirect examination. I have
10 no further questions.
11 Thank you, Mr. Janc.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, you will be pleased to hear that this
13 now, hopefully, concludes your testimony here in this trial. If there
14 are not unforeseeable circumstances, this will be your last day in this
15 courtroom with this Chamber. Thank you very much that you were able to
16 provide us with your expertise and knowledge. Now you are free to return
17 to your normal activities. That means to your work here for the OTP.
18 Thank you very much. Have a good day.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much as well, Your Honour.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. McCloskey. Welcome back.
22 Is the next witness ready?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours,
25 Yes -- yes, he is. He's right outside. And if I could just give
1 you a little -- just a bit of a preview of what we were -- had in mind,
2 just from a logistics point of view.
3 Fundamentally, Mr. Butler will be talking about some of the
4 documents and materials and intercepts that were the subject-matter of
5 his reports and his previous testimony and review. And as such, I have
6 three binders of these materials that I will be fundamentally going
7 through with him, and he -- because, as you know, it's easier to deal
8 with hard copies, and that's the way we have done this, as it's happened
9 before. So Mr. Butler will have three binders. I -- yeah, he has one
10 now. Ms. Stewart has the two others that we'll give to him or make
11 available to him, you know, before he starts, because we don't,
12 obviously, want to be giving him things after we start. But hopefully
13 he'll be able to find a place to put them.
14 We have provided both General Tolimir and Mr. Gajic with their
15 own sets of binders with materials, and we have -- and I don't mean this
16 to be -- to look too intimidating over here behind Ms. Stewart. If the
17 Trial Chamber would like also, I mean, this -- he's going to be on for
18 several days, and looking hard in this computer can be difficult. I'm
19 sure they're not going to be perfect, though a lot of hard work has gone
20 into them. You're welcome to have those, but, of course, e-court and the
21 court system is fundamentally what we'll be going from. But we have
22 these binders if -- if -- we also have some for the Court, the
23 Legal Officer.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I look at these binders, this is really a
25 threat. I don't know where to put them and to handle them. But
1 sometimes it's, indeed, helpful to have hard copies in front of us.
2 Perhaps you can provide us with the first binder, and we can receive the
3 others at a later stage.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can manage that. So you just leave them on
5 the bench and we'll get them back each day, or if you want to take any of
6 them with you; however -- but we can manage the actual hauling around of
7 it. This is the way we used to do it before e-court, so it's bringing
8 back memories.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We would appreciate getting an additional binder
10 for the staff of the Chamber.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we have that as well, is my understanding.
12 And, Mr. President, many of the documents in the collection are
13 in evidence. Many are not. You have -- obviously will have seen many of
14 these documents, so I will try not to overdo it with matters that you've
15 seen, and you'll, hopefully, notice that. And as we go through that,
16 there are three documents that did not have 65 ter numbers that I've
17 alerted Mr. Gajic to, and that we'll talk about that and see if there's
18 any problem there. All the rest are on the 65 ter list. There's a
19 fourth, but that was Mr. Butler's revised CV that we revised upon him
20 getting here and putting in his latest, so I'm sure there won't be any
21 objection to that fourth document.
22 And, lastly, as I have before, I -- and I know you will, I
23 encourage you to -- please don't -- please interrupt me at any point
24 and -- because I'm, of course, trying to present the material that will
25 help you answer the questions you need to answer. But no problem with
1 interruptions, and I think that would be, overall, helpful.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that.
3 The witness should be brought in, please.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Butler. Welcome to the
7 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on
9 the card which is shown to you now.
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: RICHARD BUTLER
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make
14 yourself comfortable.
15 Just for the record, you have a binder in front of you.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I do.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You received this binder from the Prosecution, I
18 take it.
19 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it is, up to now, only one binder?
21 THE WITNESS: Up to now, it's labelled "Binder 1 of 3," so I
22 expect there will be two more somewhere in the process, sir.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Unfortunately for you. Thank you very much.
24 Mr. McCloskey, you have the floor.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
2 Q. Could you state your name for the record, please?
3 A. Yes, sir. My name is Richard Butler.
4 Q. And can you tell us, what is your current work and profession?
5 A. I am an intelligence officer. I am currently employed by the US
6 Department of Homeland Security, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement,
7 where I work as the intelligence operations manager for the Human Rights
8 Violators and War Crimes Unit.
9 Q. All right. And I am going to remind myself and you that we need
10 to go a little bit slower than we, frankly, have done before, because, as
11 you know, General Tolimir is representing himself and is an active
12 participant, unlike the other cases, where there has been an attorney
13 that spoke English. So I will try to delay, and we will both try to do
15 And if we could --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And especially you should both pause between
17 question and answer. That's the most important thing.
18 THE WITNESS: I understand, sir.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, if we could go to 65 ter 7436.
20 Q. This is a new 65 ter number, but it's your updated resume that
21 you did for us recently. I won't go through it completely. I see that
22 you've done a summary of your professional background as a professional
23 intelligence officer, and we'll get to that. But you've just told us
24 what your current job is for the United States. Can you tell us how long
25 you have had that -- you worked for that organisation, and just,
1 basically, what your job has been.
2 A. I began with Immigration and Customs Enforcement in February of
3 2004, and shortly thereafter I started working human rights violator
4 cases, as they're known in our law enforcement vernacular. I've been
5 doing that more or less full time now since about 2006.
6 Q. And what was your job before that?
7 A. Before that, not only did I do human rights violator cases, but I
8 would also work more traditional law enforcement issues; for example,
9 human smuggling and trafficking, other such crimes. But because of my
10 unique background, in part from my time here at the ICTY, and my military
11 intelligence background, clearly my current employers believed I was more
12 suited to be doing war crimes full time than other forms of criminal
14 Q. So who did you -- what organisation did you work for before the
15 United States Government?
16 A. Before the United States Government employed me, I was an analyst
17 for the ICTY Office of the Prosecutor for a total of almost seven years.
18 Q. All right. And we'll get into that in more detail, but can you
19 tell us -- you used the vernacular "human rights violator" cases that
20 you're involved in. Can you tell us what that involves and your role in
22 A. That phrase is how we define investigations that are conducted by
23 our agency relating to individuals who have committed human rights
24 violations or war crimes in other countries prior to coming to the United
25 States, where they have gained some form of immigration benefit. And in
1 conducting -- in committing those crimes, they're not eligible for those
2 benefits under our law, so it is, in part, the job of our agency to
3 investigate those allegations. And when we can confirm those
4 allegations, we bring either criminal or administrative proceedings
5 against the accused in order to strip him or her of the immigration
6 benefits that were derived by misrepresenting facts related to their
7 involvement in those kinds of crimes. It could be as simple as, you
8 know, individual acts of persecution. In some cases, it could be denying
9 their involvement in acts of genocide.
10 Q. And in your work now, several years for the United States that
11 you've just described, were you involved in the investigation and
12 prosecution of anyone that had been involved in war crimes in Bosnia?
13 A. Yes, sir, I have.
14 Q. And can you give us any -- a brief example of one -- one case
15 that was -- that you were involved in and that was prosecuted by the
16 United States?
17 A. Yes, sir. Perhaps one of the better examples is the case of an
18 individual named Marko Boskic, who, in July of 1995, was a member of the
19 10th Sabotage Detachment and was one of the individuals who directly
20 participated in the executions at Branjevo Farm. Following his
21 involvement in those crimes by a number of years, he made his way to the
22 United States and ultimately became a lawful permanent resident. As a
23 result of investigation that was undertaken by our agency and other law
24 enforcement agencies, we were able to criminally prosecute him for the
25 crimes related to his lying on immigration applications to gain that
1 legal permanent resident status. He was convicted of those crimes. He
2 served a jail sentence in the United States and has subsequently then
3 been removed by our agency back to his home jurisdiction, Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina, where he subsequently has pleaded guilty to his involvements
5 in those crimes as he was charged by the Bosnian State War Crimes Court.
6 So that particular case gives a good representation of the scope of the
7 work of our unit, in general, and my work, in particular.
8 Q. Well, can you briefly describe what role you played in that? And
9 we will, of course, get to your fundamental back -- you know, your
10 education and your background, but just tell us where you fit into
11 that -- to that investigation and/or prosecution.
12 A. My role, specifically, and with our intelligence people, in
13 general, is to provide the necessary background expertise to allow for
14 our special agents to investigate the case properly, what areas that they
15 should focus on. In my particular case, because of my detailed knowledge
16 of Srebrenica, I obviously brought a good amount of information to the
17 table in this particular case and, following that, worked with
18 United States attorneys who are prosecuting the case in Boston. And
19 ultimately in that case, I also testified as an expert witness as to the
20 circumstances related to the Branjevo Farm massacres.
21 Q. And have you testified as an expert on Bosnia and former Yugoslav
22 issues in the United States in other cases?
23 A. Yes, sir, I have.
24 Q. And have you testified as an expert in this Tribunal before?
25 A. Yes, sir. This is my fifth occasion.
1 Q. Can you tell us what the other cases were that you testified as
2 an expert in?
3 A. I testified initially in the case of the Prosecutor versus
4 General Krstic. I testified as an expert in the case of the Prosecutor
5 versus Blagojevic and Jokic. I testified in the case of Popovic et al.
6 I testified in the case of the Prosecutor and -- versus Perisic. And so
7 this is my fifth time in these courtrooms.
8 Q. And have you testified as an expert in the State Court of Bosnia?
9 A. Yes, sir, I have.
10 Q. All right. I would like now to -- let's turn the page. It
11 should be page 3 in English, where we go beyond your experience for the
12 United States, and we start to talk about your experience in the
13 United States Army. In fact, let's go to page 4. I want to work -- I
14 want to work backwards and work up towards your job for the OTP. And --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page in B/C/S?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's page 6.
17 Q. And it begins with the August 1981 through January 1989, various
18 intelligence-related assignments as an enlisted soldier and, later,
19 non-commissioned officer in the US Army.
20 So can you tell us, did you enlist in the army at that time?
21 A. Yes, sir. I enlisted in August of 1981.
22 Q. And briefly describe, very briefly, those first eight years.
23 A. Briefly, those eight years were a mixture of intelligence
24 postings at various military units, some of them strategic intelligence
25 units, some of them tactical ground units, where I learned my profession
1 at the very -- from the very bottom starting up, serving first as an
2 enlisted soldier, then as a non-commissioned officer. That is -- that is
3 the developmental, you know, plan, so that's where they sent me for the
4 first eight years.
5 Q. And how old were you when you first enlisted in the army?
6 A. Goodness. Twenty.
7 Q. And what was your grade or rank, if you could call it?
8 A. I started as a private first class.
9 Q. Like everyone else?
10 A. Pretty much.
11 Q. And by the end of those eight years, until we get to the next
12 segment on your CV, what was your rank or position?
13 A. When I finally left the non-commissioned officer corps and was
14 appointed a warrant officer, I was a staff-sergeant.
15 Q. Can you tell us, again briefly, what the difference is between a
16 non-commissioned officer and a -- what you've just described as a warrant
18 A. In the United States Army, the grades are broken down; enlisted
19 soldiers, non-commissioned officers and officers. Officers -- at some
20 juncture, all officers will hold a commission. In my particular field as
21 a warrant officer, I'm not immediately commissioned. We are appointed to
22 that position. And once being appointed for several years, I received my
24 Q. Let me interrupt. What's the difference between an appointment
25 and a commission?
1 A. Functionally, there's no difference at all. It is just a
2 holdover of the military tradition in one part, and in a second part it
3 is a recognition that as I make that jump from the non-commissioned
4 officer corps to the officer corps, it might not be permanent. If I fail
5 to perform in the requisite manner, that appointment can be withdrawn and
6 I would find myself reverted back to the non-commissioned officer corps.
7 Q. As a --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
9 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear a thing, if Mr. Gajic is saying
11 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps you can see
12 that I'm on my feet for a long time after Mr. McCloskey and the witness
13 are finishing speaking. The transcript is about six to seven lines ahead
14 of the interpretation into B/C/S, so I would appreciate it if the witness
15 and the Prosecutor would slow down a little, especially when using
16 specialised terminology, because the interpreters find it sometimes hard.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this information. We are not able
18 to listen to the B/C/S translation, and, therefore, it is appreciated
19 that you draw the attention to that fact.
20 I realise that you, Mr. McCloskey, were talking quite slowly, but
21 Mr. Butler should slow down a bit --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and pause between question and answer.
24 Please carry on.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. We left off, I believe, where you had been a non-commissioned
2 officer, as a sergeant, and you went into the ranks of the warrant
3 officer. And can you explain, as a warrant officer, is that -- does that
4 have the equivalent of any rank -- officer rank that we're used to
5 hearing in every day parlance?
6 A. It does, and it is, in fact, a rank in -- recognised in the
7 United States Army. Warrant officers are the technical experts of the
8 army in various fields. We have different career paths from other
9 officers, which is primarily designed to allow us to specialise in very
10 narrow fields. So in that way, we're different from other officers who
11 will take a more general career path and have a much broader range of
12 experiences, many of them which will not even be related to the field
13 that they specialise in, but will still require their officers
15 Q. So does it make any sense to compare you at all to a lieutenant,
16 for example?
17 A. No, it does not. I mean, in the grade of rank, the highest
18 warrant officer is still not superior to the youngest lieutenant.
19 However, in the function of position, a US Army second lieutenant will be
20 an individual who is 22 or 23 years old, with very little actual
21 experience and training, in the beginning of his developmental cycle in
22 the army, where a warrant officer will be someone who already has 10, 15
23 or 20 years, perhaps even more for the senior warrant officers, in the
24 developmental cycle in their specific field.
25 Q. All right. We -- looking at your CV, we see that from February
1 1989 to 1992, you call yourself a Warrant -- you were a Warrant Officer
2 1, and later a Chief Warrant Officer 2, and your job description was that
3 of an all-source evidence technician.
4 A. It should read "intelligence technician."
5 Q. Can you tell us what an all-source intelligence technician --
6 what was your job?
7 A. My job at that particular period was to analyse information that
8 would come in from all aspects of either formal intelligence collection
9 or other forms of information that, as a military unit, we would gain as
10 part of our activities, traditional intelligence sources such as human
11 intelligence, signals intelligence, imagery intelligence. It would --
12 non-traditional sources, such as the evaluation of open-source or
13 publicly-available information that we would get from magazines or other
14 military types of documents that were not necessarily classified but are
15 part of a military's -- they produce them. So in that sense, it is all
16 source. I was expected to be proficient in my ability to analyse and
17 synthesise the information from all of those various disciplines of
18 intelligence collection.
19 Q. Now, I know from the record and from -- as the Defence is aware,
20 we are not allowed to get into -- nor is it particularly relevant to get
21 into the specifics of your intel work in the field. But generally, were
22 you doing this work of analysing this material ever in a combat zone,
23 during armed conflict?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And can you give us, roughly, the years that you would have been
1 working in and around a combat zone in an armed conflict?
2 A. In this particular context, it would be, I guess, what is now
3 referred to as the first Gulf War. We called it Desert Storm back then.
4 So that would be 1991, I believe, 1990-1991.
5 Q. And were you in the field in the Gulf?
6 A. Yes, sir. I was taken from the 3rd Infantry Division, and I was
7 re-subordinated or attached, if you were, to the headquarters of
8 United States 7th Corps which had already deployed to South-West Asia.
9 So I joined the unit there.
10 Q. Okay. You've mentioned the kinds of materials that an all-source
11 evidence technician analyses, but tell us for what purpose. What are you
12 analyse -- just roughly, without specifics, what are you analysing, for
13 what purpose, and who, if anyone, does your analysis or conclusions go
15 A. The work that I did, specifically, given the context of the
16 Gulf -- the first Gulf War, was to essentially analyse the combat
17 dispositions and operations of the Iraqi Army for the purpose of
18 targeting them and destroying their military capability during our
19 offensive operations. As with any other military intelligence
20 professional in our army, our ultimate customer is our commander, so the
21 intelligence products that we worked on and that we produced were for the
22 benefit of our commanders in order to make their precise plans and to,
23 you know, as effectively and efficiently as possible, defeat the enemy.
24 Q. And did you write reports for your command?
25 A. My reports were both written and -- when time did not allow for
1 them to be written, I gave verbal situation reports, not only to my
2 command but, as required, to subordinate commands.
3 Q. And during that wartime experience, can you describe the kinds of
4 an all-source evidence that you were able to see and analyse, and was it
5 similar to the material you've previously described?
6 A. Yes, sir. Obviously, for a time the Iraqi military used radio
7 communications, and there was intelligence derived from that. We had
8 access to human intelligence, both in the form of civilians who would
9 cross the lines and would provide us information as to where Iraqi
10 military forces were dug in and in what strength, as well as once the
11 actual conflict started, access to Iraqi prisoners of war, who would be
12 debriefed, and we would then take their information and use it for our
13 intelligence purposes. We obviously had access to imagery products,
14 being that it was a desert, so we had an ability to use imagery in order
15 to physically see the dispositions of the enemy forces. So in that
16 context, that was the all-source analysis and production methodology.
17 Q. How about documents, Iraqi military, political, or civilian
18 documents; did you have access to any kind of material like that for your
20 A. Yes, sir. Certainly after our offensive operations started and
21 we began over-running Iraqi military positions and command posts, we had
22 access to Iraqi military documents, operations orders, map graphics,
23 which we would get immediately translated. And then using that
24 information for our intelligence purposes, analyse it, process it, and
25 get that information out to our corps commander, as well as the
1 subordinate commands, so they had a more accurate picture of the enemy
2 dispositions and what their military intentions were.
3 Q. All right. I think that will cover it for the US Army for me.
4 We can refer to the CV for anything else. I now want to get to: How was
5 it and when was it that you came to the Office of the Prosecutor of the
7 A. I came to the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY in April of
8 1997 as a, at that time, Chief Warrant Officer 3. The United States
9 Government essentially seconded me to the ICTY Office of the Prosecutor
10 in order to assist the Office of the Prosecutor in analysing
11 military-related information in order to assist their investigators and
12 their Prosecutors.
13 Q. And how long did you stay employed by the US Army? At some
14 point, did you make a change?
15 A. My initial assignment was scheduled to be two years. Because of
16 circumstances related to the Srebrenica investigation, it lasted five.
17 At that point, I had reached the 20-year mark of military service and was
18 eligible for -- and I retired from active military service. At that
19 point in time, the Office of the Prosecutor then hired me as a UN civil
20 servant, I guess is the term of art, where I served from September 2001
21 to, essentially, November of 2003 as a UN employee, working the same job
22 as I had before.
23 Q. Now, which case did you primarily work on during your time at the
25 A. The bulk of my professional work related to the
1 Srebrenica-related cases that were under investigation and later trial by
2 the Office of the Prosecutor.
3 Q. All right. Having in mind the description you just gave us of
4 the kind of materials you analysed and reported on in combat for the
5 United States Army, can you tell us, your work for the Srebrenica
6 investigation and case, did it involve anything in terms of similar
7 material or analysis?
8 A. The work was remarkably similar to what I had done in the US
9 Army. Initially, when I joined the investigation in probably around
10 May/early June of 1997, most of the information related to what I would
11 refer to as open-source information; magazine articles, newspaper
12 articles, news videos that would depict aspects of the crime scene.
13 Later, following searches by members of the Office of the Prosecutor of
14 various military units, we gained access to military documents from
15 various units of the Army of the Republika Srpska, particularly the
16 Bratunac Brigade, the Zvornik Brigade, and some related to the
17 Drina Corps. We then gained access to intercepted Bosnian Serb Army
18 communications that were taken by the Bosnian Muslim military forces in
19 and around July of 1995, so we actually had communications intelligence
20 related to that. And, finally, I think we started, in 1997, getting
21 access to interview military officers who were in official positions in
22 July of 1995 related to Srebrenica, so we were able to interview them to
23 have them fill in many of the blanks, to get their statements, so to
24 speak. So in that context, much of the work that I did here for the
25 Office of the Prosecutor is exactly what I did for the United States
2 Q. And when you say "military officers," primarily, were they from
3 one side?
4 A. For the most part, these were military officers from the Army of
5 Republika Srpska.
6 Q. And in your analysis work for the Office of the Prosecutor, did
7 you get imagery products?
8 A. Yes, sir. I am aware that the US Government, as part of their
9 role in cooperating with the work of the Tribunal, had made available
10 various overhead imagery products related to various aspects of the
11 Srebrenica crime base, most of them pertaining to the locations of
12 suspected mass graves, some of them actually showing photographs of
13 groups of individuals who we later came to learn were captured prisoners.
14 Q. Did you, yourself, ever actively take part in the interview of
15 officers of the Army of Republika Srpska?
16 A. Yes, sir, I did.
17 Q. And what was your function?
18 A. In a manner similar to what I do today, the first part of my job
19 would be to work with the investigator who would be conducting the
20 interview to bring that investigator fully up to speed with all the
21 information that we had on an individual officer and what we believed his
22 role might have been during the relevant period. The interviewer would
23 then conduct, in most cases, the first part of the interview. At some
24 point, if there were a particular military issue that needed to be
25 explored or the answers that we were hearing were not answers that we had
1 prepared for or had anticipated, the interviewer would ask me to step in
2 and take over various parts of the interview in order to clarify issues
3 or in order to deal with particularly technical issues of a military
4 officer interview.
5 Q. As part of your analysis of materials for the Office of the
6 Prosecutor, did you review any laws related to armed conflict in the
7 former Yugoslavia and any military regulations/rules that you believed or
8 were possibly in effect at the time of the war in the former Yugoslavia?
9 A. Yes, sir, I've reviewed a great deal of those.
10 Q. And did you write any reports for the Office of the Prosecutor
11 based on your analysis and review and involvement in the investigations
12 and knowledge gained?
13 A. Yes, sir, I've drafted a number of reports for the Office of the
15 Q. And can you go over just those reports briefly? And I mean, very
16 briefly, because we all know that much of those reports are made up of
17 the documents that we're going over. So if we could just -- so if you
18 could first tell us what report you started off with, and what it was,
19 and what its purpose was.
20 A. My original two reports were the Srebrenica military narrative
21 and the corps command responsibility report. In the particular context
22 of the time, the accused was General Radislav Krstic, so the purpose of
23 the corps command report was to examine the role of a corps commander
24 within the Army of the Republika Srpska. And this report dealt with all
25 of the structural, legal and military aspects of what it means to be a
1 corps commander in a particular army, including what his duties and
2 responsibilities were under the relevant law that the Army of the
3 Republika Srpska was operating under, as well as the broader Law of War
4 or International Humanitarian Law, which was also applicable to
5 General Krstic at the time.
6 The Srebrenica military narrative was designed to place the
7 relevant military documents that were in the possession of the Office of
8 the Prosecutor in the context of the crime base and the military events
9 that occurred related to Srebrenica. So the initial report was focused
10 primarily from the period of 4 July to, roughly, 20 July 1995, and it
11 essentially tells, in the form of a narrative, what various military
12 documents and orders were issued at various times and how they relate to
13 situations on the ground. And in that context of military documents, I
14 also referred to the military intercepts from the BiH which also were
15 integrated into that picture.
16 Q. Did you cite and integrate into this narrative any statements of
17 survivor witnesses or, as you've, I think, said, crime-base witnesses?
18 A. As a matter of practice here, I did not, or only did so to the
19 absolute minimum degree required in order to set a particular crime so
20 there would be some context. Unique to this situation in the legal
21 aspect of this, as opposed to my own military one, you know, I am aware
22 that many of these witnesses will obviously be testifying before the
23 Tribunal and will give their own evidence, so I did not feel it was my
24 place to incorporate their testimony from statements in any way into
25 that, since that is, obviously, you know, more properly the role of the
1 Court, not an analyst. So by design, wherever possible, I did not use
2 statements from military officials that were interviewed. In the case of
3 survivors, I only used it in order to set the context of a particular
4 crime scene. For example, you have to have the statement of accounting
5 of survivors from Orahovac to know when it happened and where in order to
6 allow for the military documents and the communications intercepts to
7 make any sense relating to that particular crime base.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I see that it's break time, and this,
9 I think, would be a good time.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We must have our second break now, and we will
11 resume in half an hour, quarter past 6.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Mr. Butler, you just briefly described your original narrative
17 and your original command report on the corps for the Krstic case. Can
18 you tell us, going as far back as Krstic, was the -- was there an issue
19 in that case regarding the role of the corps commander and the role of
20 the corps security officer, as well as the Main Staff security officer,
21 their various roles and inter-relationships? Was that an issue in the
22 Krstic case and in your command report and testimony?
23 A. Yes, sir. It was one of the primary themes of the Krstic
25 Q. And can you just briefly tell us what you believed the theme of
1 the Krstic defence was that you were -- that you were dealing with, not
2 so much that that's an issue, but what were you dealing with, what was
3 your perception of that defence that you had to deal with in your reports
4 and your testimony?
5 A. The specific issues raised revolved around the assertions by
6 General Krstic that, first of all, during the period he was not the corps
7 commander and, secondly, that the Main Staff and security officers,
8 exercising independent authorities, essentially hijacked the Drina Corps
9 intelligence and security apparatus and the subordinate brigade security
10 apparatus, and used them to commit the crimes, and as the commander, he
11 had both -- or, actually, not even as the commander, but in the
12 alternative, as the commander he had no knowledge, or no responsibility
13 even if he had did have knowledge. So it was in that context where I
14 laid out, as part of the corps command responsibility report, what his
15 nominal role would have been as the commander, also as the chief of
16 staff, during the various period, as well as the laws, rules and
17 regulations of the military and how they pertained to both the functions
18 of command as well as the functions of security within the Army of the
19 Republika Srpska.
20 Q. And what sources were you able to look at to determine what a
21 commander's responsibilities would have been in the VRS, or a security
22 officer's responsibilities were? What did you look at?
23 A. The initial sources, as they were obtained by the Office of the
24 Prosecutor, were former operational regulations or manuals from the
25 former Yugoslav national army. One of the working early theses that we
1 had, as analysts, was that, to the largest degree possible, the Army of
2 the Republika Srpska was following the rules, regulations and doctrines
3 of the former Yugoslav national army that had then dissolved by then.
4 Those rules, regulations and manuals lay out, in a good sense of detail,
5 the roles and responsibilities of command as well as the roles and
6 responsibilities of those involved in security and intelligence.
7 Q. Now, this Trial Chamber has seen, as part of this case, quite a
8 few JNA, Peoples -- the army you referred to, JNA rules regarding
9 command, security, and other key points. You said it was a working
10 thesis. After your ability and the investigation's ability to interview
11 VRS officers, have you reached a conclusion whether or not those JNA
12 rules and regulations were actually used or not used by the VRS?
13 A. Yes, sir. I mean, very early on in the interview process, we
14 were able to confirm that information as we would interview these various
15 officers, who told us that these were still in use, and further as we
16 obtained military documents from the Army of the Republika Srpska, from
17 the various searches that were done by the Office of the Prosecutor, not
18 only myself but other military analysts from other cases, we could
19 clearly see where, in some cases, entire passages from those former
20 Yugoslav national army regulations were quoted in VRS documents as the
21 procedures to be followed.
22 Q. Okay. You have described your first two reports. Could you
23 briefly tell us what other reports you had done?
24 A. The next series of reports were more directed towards issues
25 coming up with the second Srebrenica-related trial, that of
1 Colonel Blagojevic and that of Major Jokic. In that particular case, I
2 was asked to do a command report, but to focus it on issues that were
3 relevant to brigade command, since Colonel Blagojevic was the brigade
4 commander of the Bratunac Brigade, as well as issues related to the duty
5 officer roles at a brigade level and intelligence and security roles at
6 the brigade level. So it was essentially taking the work from corps and
7 dropping it down one echelon to the brigade level.
8 Q. All right. And was there a revised narrative that you did as
10 A. Yes, sir. In order to incorporate new information that had been
11 learned as a result of the ongoing investigation from my previous
12 narrative, I used that opportunity to incorporate that new material into
13 what I call a revised narrative.
14 Q. All right. And I also see that you did something called a
15 report, Chapter 8, Analytical Addendum to the Srebrenica-related
16 Narrative, Revised. What was that?
17 A. That particular chapter dealt with an issue that had cropped up
18 relating to documents concerning individuals who were known to be in the
19 custody of the Army of the Republika Srpska as either prisoners or
20 wounded, and who later ended up disappeared. So that additional annex
21 dealt primarily with individuals who were captured at the Milici -- or
22 were known to have been captured by the VRS and were also known to have
23 been treated at the Milici Medical Centre in July -- I believe it was
24 July 12 or 13, who were subsequently transferred to Zvornik and then are
25 now disappeared.
1 Q. And do these six reports comprise your full reporting on the
2 events and the laws and the rules in play? Are there any others, is what
3 I'm getting at.
4 A. The final report that I did was for the Popovic trial. Because
5 of the issue of individuals who were members of the Main Staff who were
6 on trial, I was asked by the Office of the Prosecutor to draft a report
7 related to the roles and responsibilities of those various officers who
8 were members of the Main Staff.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I have 65 ter numbers for
10 these six reports. And while they do have some overlap, as you may have
11 gleaned from the description, they all deal with separate and new
12 information, and I would like to -- I can provide a piece of paper with
13 their numbers on it later, if that would save some time, or I can read
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They are only a few. It's, I think, the best way
16 to put it on the record.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
18 Well, let me start with Mr. Butler's updated CV, which is
19 65 ter 7436.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, I would like to ask the
21 Defence if there are any objections to add this document to the 65 ter
22 exhibit list.
23 Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no
25 objection on this particular document.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to add it.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, no. Wait a moment, please.
4 Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Then I would tender that 7436.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7436 shall be
8 assigned Exhibit P2469. Thank you.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the corps command report, 65 ter 651, and I
10 would offer that as well.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you'd just read out the numbers of the
12 different reports you have dealt with, and then we will come to a
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Those numbers are: 651, the command; 653
15 for the military narrative original; 652 for the brigade command; 654 for
16 the revised narrative; 661 for the Chapter 8 analytical addendum; and
17 65 ter 2001 for the Main Staff report.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it they are all on the 65 ter exhibit
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are there any objections by the Defence against
22 their admission?
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Registrar has drawn my attention to one
2 You are referring to 65 ter 661. That seems not to be included
3 in the list of documents you have provided us with, but there is a
4 document 662. Could you please check that again.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, don't worry. It is found. That
7 was a misinformation.
8 I take it that there is no objection by the Defence against the
9 admission of these documents. Is that correct?
10 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Mr. President, no objection.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These six documents will be received as exhibits.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 651 shall be
13 assigned Exhibit P2470. 65 ter document 653 shall be assigned
14 Exhibit P2471. 65 ter document 652 shall be assigned Exhibit P2472.
15 65 ter document 654 shall be assigned Exhibit P2473. 65 ter document 661
16 shall be assigned Exhibit P2474. And, finally, 65 ter document 2001
17 shall be assigned Exhibit P2475. Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. And, Mr. Butler, I also note that we have on the list a series of
21 what we have referred to as proofing notes, which were lists of -- and
22 packets of reports and materials that were provided you at various dates,
23 and I see those are in 2007, 2008, two in 2008, and one in 2010.
24 Can you just very briefly describe what you did when you were
25 provided these packets of documents?
1 A. Yes, sir. As the Court is aware, I've not been an employee of
2 the Office of the Prosecutor since November of 2003. However, I am
3 called back by the Office of the Prosecutor to testify in these various
4 cases. In order to ensure that my reports and my analysis and
5 understanding of the various issues remains current and is accurate, as
6 part of that I asked to review new tranches of documents or materials
7 that are related to the issues concerning my report and my prior
8 analysis. So what normally happens is that, at various points in time, I
9 will take a week or a ten-day period sometime prior to my
10 testimony - sometimes it may be a month, sometimes it may be a year - to
11 review new material that has come to light as a result of the ongoing
12 investigation. As I review that material, I'm asked to comment on that,
13 particularly with respect to does this new material change any of my
14 previous analysis on any particular topic that I've discussed. My
15 opinions as to what the material is and how it's relevant to any given
16 situation is then incorporated by the Office of the Prosecutor into
17 proofing notes and then made available to the Defence.
18 Q. All right. And can you tell us for this particular trial, the
19 trial of General Tolimir, what have you done to prepare for your
20 testimony in this case?
21 A. I believe it was late March or early April of 2010, I spent a
22 week here reviewing new documents and materials related to
23 General Tolimir, and, of course, some of them I had seen before, but not
24 in the context of General Tolimir. Some of them were new documents that
25 I've not seen at all. So, again, in that particular situation I reviewed
1 the material, I commented on how it did or did not affect my previous
2 analysis, and those were incorporated into notes. And then several weeks
3 ago, when I came here to testify, there was a several-day period where
4 additional new information was either provided to me or, in some cases, I
5 wanted, myself, once I became aware of them, to review them because I
6 thought they might have an impact on something that I had either said or
7 on some previous analysis. So, again, I reviewed additional material
8 and, I believe, a couple of witness statements as part of that last final
9 proofing, and that information also, I believe, is incorporated into
10 proofing notes and turned over to the Defence.
11 Q. Were you able to review any past testimonies?
12 A. Yes, sir. I also reviewed individuals' testimony - I believe the
13 specific case, the testimony of General Milovanovic as he testified here
14 in the current trial - to determine, based obviously on his position
15 within the Army of the Republika Srpska, whether or not my conclusions on
16 the use of doctrine or other issues remains valid.
17 Q. Okay. And aside from General Milovanovic's testimony in this
18 case, did you review any other witnesses' testimony in this case?
19 A. Yes, sir. I believe his name was - I'll probably butcher it, I'm
20 sorry - Rakovic, but it was the intelligence and security officer for the
21 Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, the Rogatica Brigade, who had been
22 interviewed - and had testified here - by the Office of the Prosecutor.
23 I was not previously aware of any information provided by him. And,
24 again, given the context of what I talk about with the security organs,
25 you know, I wanted to review his testimony in that context.
1 Q. Does the name Razdoljac ring a bell?
2 A. There we go. Yes, sir, that's it.
3 Q. And do you recall what his position was with the
4 1st Podrinje Brigade?
5 A. I believe he was the security officer, sir.
6 Q. I believe he was the logistics officer. I don't know if you --
7 A. I'm mistaken, yes.
8 Q. And, I don't know, does the name Carkic ring any bells to you?
9 A. Not off-hand. It's some -- depending on when I reviewed the
10 material, the name is not ringing the bell. I'm sure in you refreshed my
11 memory, it will be there.
12 Q. That's all right. And aside from those two testimonies, have you
13 followed this trial at all?
14 A. No, sir, I have not.
15 Q. And aside from some of the work that you've described related to
16 the war in the former Yugoslavia that you did in your United States job,
17 have you tried to keep up with the investigation and all the additional
18 evidence and witnesses and things that have occurred over the many years
19 since you haven't been here?
20 A. Given my current job responsibilities with the Department of
21 Homeland Security, and the fact that I deal now with global issues,
22 unless I am dealing with a very specific Bosnian-related case, I just do
23 not have the time or ability to continue to follow these cases as they
24 proceed here in detail.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, fair enough. Now -- Mr. President,
1 it's my plan now to change gears a little bit. So if there's any
2 questions regarding Mr. Butler's background or expertise --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see Mr. Gajic on his feet.
4 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can see that things
5 are speeding up. Until a moment ago, the speakers were following a tempo
6 that the interpreters can follow. I would just like to draw everyone's
7 attention to this problem, not only because of the transcript, but it
8 happened at the end of the last session. The guard was urging
9 Mr. Tolimir to stand up because he was still busy listening to the
10 interpretation that was late. We have to deal with this problem also
11 with the Guards Service. Of course, Mr. Tolimir and I want to do nothing
12 that would be disrespectful of this Trial Chamber, but I really need to
13 draw everyone's attention to this issue because sometimes even at the end
14 of the day, when the session is over, the interpretation is still going
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I saw and I heard you speaking very
17 fast -- very much faster than Mr. McCloskey, and we had to wait for the
18 interpretation. It is an ongoing problem, of course, in this and all
19 other trials, and everybody is invited to do his best to let the
20 interpreters translate everything which is said in the courtroom.
21 Mr. McCloskey, you may continue.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue, Judge Mindua has a question.
24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 Mr. McCloskey said he was moving on to a new area, and said that
1 it was a good opportunity to ask general questions on the witness's
2 background and experience.
3 Mr. Witness, what difference do you make between your work as an
4 intelligence officer and the work of a police officer?
5 THE WITNESS: The work of an intelligence officer is geared
6 primarily towards the collection of and the analysing of information in a
7 military context related to a potential adversarial armed force,
8 politically to an opposing government. From a law enforcement or police
9 context, it is related to law enforcement. The fundamental methodologies
10 of the collection and the processing and analysis of the information is
11 the same. Where you have a difference is with respect to what I would
12 call the output. From an intelligence perspective, my goal would be to
13 take that information and, in a predictive nature, to advise my superior
14 what future events may transpire, and give my superior the ability to
15 affect those future effects. From a law enforcement perspective, a
16 police perspective, that intelligence is used to define a static event or
17 situation that has already occurred in the past and to gather as much
18 information and to clarify it, as possible, so the crime can be properly
20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
21 According to you, an immigration and customs officer can also --
22 can be an intelligence officer as well as a judicial police officer?
23 THE WITNESS: No, sir. In my particular agency, as an
24 intelligence officer, my role is to provide criminal intelligence support
25 and analysis. While, as an immigration officer, I have some limited
1 functions with respect to law enforcement, in our particular agency the
2 majority of the law enforcement activities are undertaken by what we call
3 special agents. Those are individuals who are specifically trained for
4 and certified to conduct domestic law enforcement investigations in the
5 United States.
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] How about customs; is it the same?
7 Because there is immigration and customs enforcement.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It is a reflection of the fact that
9 after the events that occurred in 9/11 and the Department of
10 Homeland Security was created in 2003, the Immigration Agency and the
11 Customs Agency were joined together as one singular law enforcement
12 agency. So as a result, the particular agency has all of the enforcement
13 powers of immigration, as well as all of the enforcement powers of
14 customs enforcement, as well as retaining other criminal and civil
15 investigative authorities.
16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I understand
17 better now. Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one additional question.
19 Is this particular institution more an executive institution or
20 an administrative institution?
21 THE WITNESS: A combination of both, sir. In the United States,
22 the investigative portion, we are -- ICE is an investigative agency. The
23 application of immigration law in the United States is an application
24 of -- it's considered administrative law. So in that sense, where
25 individuals are placed in removal proceedings, while they are judicial,
1 they are administrative, they are not criminal. We also have, of course,
2 our abilities to investigate crimes related to both immigration and
3 custom and other activities, but in that sense, where we take cases to
4 court criminally, just like, for example, the FBI, we are not the
5 investigator and the prosecutor. Those cases are brought by the
6 United States Attorney's Office or the Department of Justice. So we do
7 have both criminal and civil authorities or administrative authorities in
8 that sense.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. I recall that Mr. Gajic has helpfully noted that in the Serbian,
13 they heard, in your discussion of aerial imagery, the term "unmanned
14 aerial imagery." Did you ever say or suggest whether this aerial imagery
15 was manned or unmanned?
16 A. I don't recall that I did, no.
17 Q. Okay. I just want to clarify that for the record.
18 Now, I would now begin to just go into some of the documents that
19 get us started in the former Yugoslavia, and I would go past, in our
20 books, tab 2, which is your old CV, to tab 3 and ask that we put up I
21 believe it's 65 ter 1976.
22 And this is a document that is dated 12 of May, 1992, entitled
23 "Information About Post Assignments Delivered." And it's to the
24 commander, personally. And we see at the bottom: "Command of the
25 5th Corps."
1 Now, can you tell us: What army is this a document from, going
2 back to this date of 12 May 1992?
3 A. At this time, we're discussing the Yugoslav national army.
4 Q. And we can just see from this document references to decrees,
5 assigning General Mladic to the post -- well, two different posts - I
6 won't read them - 1 and 2, and then, by the same decree [Realtime
7 transcript read in error "degree"], it talks about, as we can see before
8 us, jobs for Milan Gvero, Djordje Djukic, and Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.
9 Can you just put this in context for us? May 12th, this is the JNA.
10 What is this document doing? How does it relate, if at all, to the
11 creation of -- and the formation of the VRS, just briefly?
12 A. The particular document discusses personnel assignments to the
13 Staff and Command of the 2nd Military District, which was at that time
14 the over-arching JNA command dealing with Bosnia and Herzegovina. The
15 5th Corps was one of their subordinate corps, which would later become
16 known as the 1st Krajina Corps when the JNA withdrew and it was
17 redesignated. Many of the officers who were assigned to the
18 2nd Military District, particularly if they were of Bosnian Serb
19 ethnicity, when the JNA pulled out of Bosnia and Herzegovina, those
20 officers later formed the nucleus of what would be then known as the
21 VRS Main Staff.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And I would offer this document into
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, on page 74, line 4, would you
25 agree that the word "degree" should read as "decree"?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it should be, as we see from the document,
2 "decree," d-e-c-r-e-e.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1976 shall be
5 assigned Exhibit P2476. Thank you.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Now, can we go to tab 4. It's P22.
7 Q. And this is a document, as we wait for it to come up, entitled
8 "Decision on Strategic Objectives of the Serbian People in Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina." And we see down the left-hand corner a date, both
10 languages, of 12 May 1992.
11 Now, the Court has seen this before, and I don't want to get into
12 it in a lot of detail, but do you recall, Mr. Butler, we see that this --
13 well, can you just tell us what this is a section taken out of? What is
14 this decision? And we see it's in the name of Momcilo Krajisnik. Just
15 very briefly, what is this?
16 A. As --
17 Q. Not the document, so much, I'm sorry, but the -- where does it
18 come from?
19 A. As part of the Bosnian Serb Assembly session where they
20 essentially begin the creation of their own state and their own army, a
21 series of strategic objectives are laid out as part of the discussions.
22 For whatever reason, while these strategic objectives are laid out in
23 that Assembly meeting, it was not until 1993, I believe mid-1993, when
24 the information was actually published in the Official Gazette, laying
25 these out as formal strategic objectives. So these objectives that you
1 see here are part of the discussions laid out in context at that 12 May
2 Assembly meeting.
3 Q. So, unfortunately, it didn't make it on the translation, but if
4 we look at the Cyrillic up in the left-hand corner, we see the date of
5 1993. Actually, the 26th of a month of 1993. Is that what you're
6 referring to when you say "a date in 1993"?
7 A. Correct, sir.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, and I see it's 7.00.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that this should be "November 1993."
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I hear no objection to that, so --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Defence, indeed --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- I agree with you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 We have to adjourn for the day.
15 Sir, as you know, there is no permission to have contact about
16 the content of your testimony with either party during the break.
17 We adjourn now and resume tomorrow, in the morning, at 9.00 in
18 Courtroom III, in this courtroom.
19 And we wait a moment until the translation has finished.
20 We adjourn.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of July,
24 2011, at 9.00 a.m.