120112ED

Page 17988

1 Thursday, 12 January 2012

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

6 Since this is the first hearing this year, I would like to wish

7 all of you a good new year, best wishes for health, success, and fruitful

8 and effective co-operation here in this trial. And in particular, I wish

9 to express my best wishes to the support staff of the parties, of the

10 Registry, and of the Chamber itself.

11 As you can see, we are only two Judges today. Because of some

12 uncertainty about the scheduling, Judge Mindua was not able to come to

13 the hearing today and probably tomorrow, so that the Chamber decided the

14 remaining Judges to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

15 The hearing today is scheduled in order to hear the testimony of

16 Witness Pecanac. Pursuant to an order of the Chamber filed yesterday,

17 the witness will give his testimony in the presence of counsel appointed

18 to him for a possible consultation, if needed.

19 I would kindly ask you to introduce yourself.

20 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

21 Jens Dieckmann as witness counsel for the witness Mr. Pecanac, together

22 with assigned interpreter Ms. Malovic. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber welcomes you to the courtroom,

24 Mr. Dieckmann, and the interpreter. Welcome.

25 The Chamber is seized of an urgent Prosecution's motion for

Page 17989

1 addition of one video to its 65 ter exhibit list filed on the

2 9th of January. As indicated earlier by informal communication, the

3 Chamber would like to invite the Defence to respond to this motion orally

4 at the outset of today's hearings.

5 Mr. Tolimir, what is your position in this respect?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

7 like to greet everybody in the courtroom. I wish them all a happy new

8 year and a successful work in these proceedings. May God's will be done

9 in this courtroom and not necessarily mine.

10 We will not hinder the Prosecutor's attempt to present evidence

11 against the Defence in any way.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I take it that there is no objection.

13 Thank you.

14 Since there is no objection by the Defence, the Chamber grants

15 the motion; the video may be added to the 65 ter exhibit list of the

16 Prosecution.

17 Are there any other matters to discuss before the witness enters

18 the courtroom? I don't think so. The witness should be brought in,

19 please.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Pecanac. Welcome to the

22 courtroom. Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which

23 is shown to you now.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 17990

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make

2 yourself comfortable.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Pecanac, the Prosecution is the first party

5 to put questions to you during examination-in-chief, followed by

6 Mr. Tolimir during the cross-examination.

7 Mr. Vanderpuye, you have the floor.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon to

9 you. Good afternoon, Judge Nyambe. Good afternoon, everyone.

10 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR PECANAC

11 [Witness answered through interpretation]

12 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

13 Q. And good afternoon you, Mr. Pecanac.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I know that you have already

15 placed on the record that Mr. Pecanac testifies here today in the

16 presence of counsel. I would ask that you further advise Mr. Pecanac of

17 Rule 90(E) in particular, in relation to giving testimony that may tend

18 to incriminate him. And I would ask also - and I think it may be the

19 most efficient way to proceed in these -- with his testimony - that you

20 consider having him testify in closed session, because it is our

21 considered opinion that his testimony fundamentally, in almost every

22 aspect, potentially can incriminate him. And rather than sort through

23 and go from closed session to open session and back and forth on an

24 ad hoc basis depending on the nature of the question and answer, it might

25 be more efficient just simply to proceed on that basis.

Page 17991

1 If the Trial Chamber decides to proceed on that basis, it would

2 also be appropriate, I think, to instruct Mr. Pecanac that his rights are

3 protected in that manner and to instruct him to answer, therefore, all of

4 the questions that are put to him. And it would be also, I think, more

5 effective and more efficient in that respect to allow Mr. Dieckmann and

6 Mr. Pecanac to consult, upon Mr. Pecanac's initiative, as concerns

7 statements that he feels he's unable to answer but nevertheless are

8 compelled by the Trial Chamber subsequently in these proceedings.

9 We do accept that he would proceed in closed session testimony on

10 the premise that his testimony in relation to the questions I will ask

11 him on direct may tend to incriminate him, and that will obviate the need

12 to establish that fact in relation to every question that he may decide

13 he doesn't want to answer.

14 That's fundamentally my submission.

15 There is one other matter that Mr. Dieckmann has advised me of,

16 which I think we should go into private session for a moment to address.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First of all, I would like to clarify: Are you

18 requesting closed session or private session? Closed session would mean

19 to interrupt the broadcast and to close the windows, or what do you mean?

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: At this moment, just now that I've referred to,

21 I meant private session. I think -- yes, private session will suffice.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And that would make sure that everything on the

23 record is confidential.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First you want to deal with some matters in

Page 17994

1 Mr. Dieckmann, as your counsel, is present in the courtroom. At any

2 stage during your testimony you may consult him. You may indicate to the

3 Chamber that you want and wish to consult Mr. Dieckmann, and then you

4 will have the opportunity, if you show us the need for such a

5 consultation.

6 Mr. Tolimir, what is your position with respect to private or

7 public session? You have heard the request or the proposal by

8 Mr. Vanderpuye. What is your position on that?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

10 like to welcome Mr. Pecanac and his counsel and all of the present. May

11 God's will be done in these proceedings and not necessarily mine. I

12 would like to welcome everybody - members of the Registry, the

13 interpreters - and on behalf of the Defence I would like to say that the

14 Defence wishes everybody a successful work in this year.

15 The Defence also wishes to say that we do not object to whatever

16 Mr. Pecanac and his counsel decide, and we will adhere to that. We do

17 not have a view on this matter because we don't know what will be said.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Vanderpuye, I would suggest that you start with your

20 questioning of Mr. Pecanac, about his name and other matters, perhaps

21 including his state of mind, his medical situation, that should be in

22 private session of course. But then later on when you come to the

23 substance of the testimony, then we will proceed in private session to

24 protect the rights of Mr. Pecanac.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I'm happy to do that. I

Page 17995

1 just wanted to point out one thing, and that is, I think potentially

2 Mr. Pecanac's position, for example, in his military career with the VRS,

3 even something as basic as that, is potentially problematic because it

4 can be used against him to establish that association, and so on, and in

5 a subsequent proceeding, obviously not here, but I'm prepared -- I'm

6 prepared to go forward until we reach such a point, which I think will be

7 relatively soon.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I leave it in your hands --

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- to decide when you reach an area which could

11 be problematic for the witness.

12 Mr. Pecanac, do you want to address the Chamber in relation to

13 your mental situation? In that case we should go to a private session

14 again.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course I would like

16 to say something about my health condition. However, I would insist on

17 this being said in private session. And I would like to thank the

18 Prosecutor for suggesting that all of my testimony be carried out in

19 private session. In the proceedings that are currently underway against

20 me, there were some malevolent interpretations in the Serbian media about

21 my trial, amongst other things. Many others wrote that I tried to

22 deceive the Trial Chamber, that I tried to play dumb. So I would kindly

23 ask you that everything from this moment on be said in private session,

24 especially bearing in mind the reasons that Mr. Prosecutor has just

25 stated.

Page 18033

1 documents you furnished to them in March of 2010. What I want to ask in

2 relation to that is, first of all: Do you retain other documents besides

3 these ones that you turned over to the Serbian authorities on those

4 dates?

5 A. I do have such documents, but I obtained them subsequently. No

6 one asked me to provide them as a result. But I do have several such

7 documents in my possession.

8 Q. And when you say they're in your possession, do you mean that you

9 have them physically at this time? Or do you mean that you have them in

10 some property or some location elsewhere?

11 A. Yes, I have them here with me. I prepared myself for this

12 testimony, to be of service to you and to the Defence.

13 Q. And the documents that you have in your possession here, are

14 these the ones in the binder that you have in front of you right now as

15 you've been testifying? Or are there additional documents that you've

16 kept in other locations here, that is, in The Hague?

17 A. I have them here with me. These are very precious documents for

18 me, and I take them with me wherever I go.

19 Q. Now, I'd asked you if you had other documents. I didn't specify

20 the types of documents. But are these documents that you have in your

21 binder related to the wartime period? Are they similar in nature to

22 other documents that you turned over to the Serb authorities, such as --

23 such as army documents, communications, things of that nature?

24 Telegrams, things like that?

25 A. Some of them relate to the wartime period. Others concern the

Page 18034

1 prewar period. And then there is a third bunch of documents that relate

2 to the post-war period.

3 Q. And besides the documents you have in the binder in front of you,

4 do you retain other documents at your premises or other locations back

5 home in Serbia, that is, similar documents?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You indicated before that you would be happy to share those

8 documents with the parties, Prosecution, I suppose the Trial Chamber, and

9 the Defence. Are you still willing to do so with respect to the

10 documents you have in your binder there?

11 A. Well, why not?

12 Q. All right. I'd like to hold that -- I'd like to hold you to

13 that, so I guess we'll be in contact with Mr. Dieckmann. And would you

14 be willing to provide those to Mr. Dieckmann so that we can - the

15 Prosecution, that is - can copy them, or at least examine them?

16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've taken the solemn declaration and I won't

17 lie. I brought these documents with me so that I could provide them to

18 you and to the Defence. I believe that they are relevant. And given the

19 amount of documents I have, I think it shows that I do collect such

20 documents. I'll also provide you a document that I sent to Mr. Dilparic

21 after my flat was searched, and that document I asked for him, or,

22 rather, the investigative judge to inform me of the crimes I had comitted

23 in accordance with the laws of Serbia. I wanted to know whether a

24 criminal report had been filed for that reason, whether there was an

25 indictment. Three years have passed; I haven't been informed of

Page 18035

1 anything. There's been no indictment. No one has told me about me

2 having committed crimes. I collected these documents not to do harm to

3 anyone. On the contrary. As I have said, I want it to be possible to

4 establish the truth to the extent that that is possible. The truth is

5 important for myself and for General Tolimir, and it's the only thing

6 that can be beneficial to us. There is nothing controversial about that

7 statement.

8 Q. All right. Thank you for that. I'd like to move into a bit of

9 your military history. You'll let me know if I get into an area that you

10 think may lead -- lead to you -- lead you to some concern about

11 incriminating yourself. But let me start with your affiliation with

12 General Tolimir. How long have you known him?

13 A. I apologise, but could we move into closed session, or, rather,

14 private session? because everything that I say in open session - and this

15 is something that has happened on several occasions and even certain

16 transcripts that I provided with regard to certain events in Serbia - are

17 transcripts that Serbian journalists in Sarajevo obtained. They were

18 abused. All sorts of lies were published. So that is why I'm making

19 this request. As I said earlier on: "Dnevni Avaz," the newspaper, wrote

20 about me in an inappropriate way and placed me in a very difficult

21 position in psychological terms, and it was also incriminating for me.

22 And it is for these reasons that I'm requesting that we move into private

23 session.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Pecanac, to avoid a misunderstanding: that

25 publishers, journalists, write wrong articles with lies is not unusual.

Page 18036

1 We all came across in -- during our life and our career to these matters.

2 Now it's a question of a true answer would incriminate yourself in

3 criminal proceedings.

4 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only in that respect we have to protect you from

6 other proceedings, not a possible misunderstanding by the media. That

7 can happen, every time.

8 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] Okay, I agree with you,

9 Your Honour. That is something that makes my position increasingly

10 difficult. Those newspaper articles made it difficult not just for me,

11 but also for General Tolimir. Because of a few words or sentences, lies,

12 rumors were disseminated. That's why I'm asking for a private session,

13 because in closed session or private session I'm prepared to speak the

14 truth. It would be a lot easier for me to speak the truth in

15 open [as interpreted] or private session, because even when I say

16 positive things about General Tolimir, even when I speak the truth,

17 believe me, the media in Sarajevo can put such things to ill-use.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Pecanac, we are a court of law, and we have

19 to follow the rules. And we have to protect you from incriminating

20 yourself. But there is no way to protect you from wrong media reception.

21 This may happen to every witness in this courtroom, to accused, to

22 prosecutors, even to Judges. Therefore, the question how long you know

23 Mr. Tolimir is -- doesn't bear the risk that by a true answer you could

24 incriminate yourself.

25 Please answer the question: How long do you know Mr. Tolimir?

Page 18037

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood that,

2 Your Honour. I have known General Tolimir since 1988 or 1989, I'm not

3 sure. I know that we met earlier on. He came to be my chief of the

4 security office in Knin in the 9th Corps, right before the war in

5 mid-1990. It was in July or August. I think it was at the beginning of

6 August, but I'm not sure. I can't remember the exact time. I think I've

7 known him since then. So that's for 21 or 22 years.

8 Since that time, I retired. Onwards, we didn't have much

9 contact. And that was all the more the case once he was transferred to

10 the Detention Unit. But I knew him quite well from 1990. I met him

11 before that. He was a lecturer for me at a course in Split. There was a

12 course in Split that had been organised. It was a brief course. It was

13 an introduction for the security service into the rules of procedure and

14 into the procedure. He was a lieutenant-colonel. He was one of the

15 lecturers. And I remember his lectures; they were very concise, of a

16 very high quality, and of much assistance for my subsequent work. So it

17 was done very professionally.

18 That would be my response.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Vanderpuye.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Do you know when it was that General Tolimir was -- or became, I

23 should say, a member of the VRS, the Main Staff of the VRS?

24 Approximately.

25 A. Well, at the same time that I did; in May 1992. We were both

Page 18038

1 born in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I think that he received an

2 order from the Main Staff of the JNA at the time, just as I did. It was

3 the only army -- legitimate army in the territory of the former

4 Yugoslavia, and I think it was the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo that

5 issued the order. We received these orders. And when the VRS was

6 established, we were transferred -- or, rather, we remained at the same

7 positions. But the establishment terms used were different. So we were

8 both in the Main Staff of the army from that point in time.

9 I think the VRS was formed on the 19th of May, 1992. I'm not

10 quite certain about that, though.

11 Q. And to what position were you assigned when you were transferred?

12 A. I think I even have the order here. I was an officer in the

13 security organ of the 2nd Military District. I'll try and find the

14 relevant order. Here it is. I've got the original here, the original

15 order dated 17th of May, 1992, the original order of the command of the

16 2nd Military District. And I was assigned the position of an officer

17 within the security organ.

18 I can provide you with a copy, if necessary.

19 Q. At the time that you were assigned a position in the security

20 organ, was that in -- this was in the Main Staff of the VRS?

21 A. No. This was the command of the 2nd Military District of the

22 JNA, as I have said. That is the order. You have the military post, and

23 it says the command of the 2nd Military District. The

24 2nd Military District was within the JNA. It wasn't the VRS. And --

25 sorry, it says: "The designated person reported for duty on the

Page 18039

1 11th of November [as interpreted], 1992." I can see that now.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. It's one of the documents that I brought with me. As I have

4 said, I have these documents here. I collected them. It says something

5 about my life.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.

7 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I misheard

8 something or the transcript is not correct. On page 12, line 25, I don't

9 know whether the witness said the 11th of November, 1992, or perhaps it

10 was some other date.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have a problem with the page numbers because

12 in LiveNote we have the correct numbers and in e-court it started again

13 after the recess, and therefore we are now on page 13. In fact, we are

14 on page 50. But perhaps you, Mr. Pecanac, you can help us. It says:

15 "The designated person reported for duty on the

16 11th of November, 1992."

17 Is that correct or was it another date?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean myself? The

19 11th of May, 1992. Not November 1992. May 1992.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that correction. Thank

21 you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. But that's what it says

23 here. Believe me, though, I don't know the date exactly. I didn't know

24 the date until this point in time. I've just found it here now.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Pecanac, thank you. It was just for

Page 18040

1 clarification because it was recorded, obviously, not in the correct way.

2 Mr. Vanderpuye, please go ahead.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. When you started, or, rather, were you assigned to the VRS --

5 first of all, let me just establish that that occurred in May of 1992; is

6 that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Okay. And when you started there in the security service, what

9 was General Tolimir's position, if you can recall?

10 A. I think that when the VRS was established the establishments were

11 different, the structure was different than was the case for the JNA. I

12 think that General Tolimir was the chief of the sector for intelligence,

13 so intelligence and security duties were covered by him during that

14 period of time. But as far as I remember, throughout that sector, as per

15 establishment, should have 30 or 40 individuals. I don't know exactly.

16 Well, there were three of us. There was General Tolimir, there was

17 Colonel Salapura, and myself. I was for counter-intelligence; Salapura

18 for intelligence; and Tolimir, as far as I can remember in 1992, spent

19 more time in negotiations with the Muslim side and international

20 community. And he wasn't that much involved in intelligence, but he

21 really focussed on his work and managed to do all the jobs he had. And

22 that's why he had such bad health problems. So he was, in fact, almost a

23 martyr.

24 Q. Do you know Colonel Ljubisa Beara? You know who he is?

25 A. Of course I know Colonel Ljubisa Beara. I know who he is.