Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18376

 1                           Wednesday, 25 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.  If

 6     there is nothing to discuss at the moment, the witness should be brought

 7     in, please.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Kralj.  Welcome back to the

10     courtroom.  I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth

11     you made at the beginning of your testimony still applies today.

12     Mr. Tolimir is continuing his examination-in-chief.

13                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO KRALJ [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have the floor, Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  God's

17     peace unto this house, and may this day in Court and the final judgement

18     reflect God's will and not mine.  And in the manner that will be most

19     beneficial to the souls of all of us.

20                           Examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, good morning.  I wish you a pleasant

22     stay among us.  We broke off while we were dealing with document D303

23     yesterday.  I would like that document to be displayed again.  We have it

24     on our screens.  We read three paragraphs yesterday.

25             You know that this is a document of the Main Staff of the VRS,

Page 18377

 1     dated 31 August 1994, it was sent to all commands, and the subject line

 2     reads:  "Order Regarding Movement of Humanitarian Aid Across Lines of

 3     Separation."  It was signed by General Milovanovic.  We saw the signature

 4     yesterday.  And he said:

 5             "You know that the GS of the VRS no longer has any jurisdiction

 6     or responsibility concerning approval of entry and movement of teams and

 7     convoys of organisations through the territory of Republika Srpska."

 8             In the second paragraph, it says:

 9             "This approval is now issued --"

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to interrupt you.  Please slow down while

11     reading.  The interpreters have a problem.

12             Please continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In paragraph two, General Milovanovic says.  I quote:

16             "These approvals are now issued by the co-ordinating body for

17     humanitarian aid and the Ministry of Health, Labour, and Social Welfare.

18             "The Army of Republika Srpska has the obligation to check teams

19     and convoys of humanitarian organisations passing through the territory

20     of Republika Srpska and crossing lines of separation into territory

21     controlled by Muslim and Croatian forces."

22             Fourth paragraph:

23             "The reports that we send to you contain all the information in

24     our possession that we obtain from approvals issued by the

25     afore-mentioned institutions."

Page 18378

 1             Mr. Kralj, this document is dated 31 August 1994.  Were you

 2     familiar with it?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Yes, I was familiar with the document.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  What I have just read out to you, was it really

 5     implemented in practice the way it's written here, the way it's stated

 6     here?  Thank you.

 7        A.   It was implemented the way it is stated here.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were a member of the organ directly in

 9     charge of humanitarian convoys moving in the territory of

10     Republika Srpska, can you explain to the Trial Chamber the difference

11     between UNPROFOR convoys and UNHCR convoy?

12        A.   UNPROFOR convoys were armed convoys.  They travelled from their

13     bases to the enclaves and sometimes from a base in Croatia through

14     RS territory to their bases in Sarajevo.  They carried personnel and

15     equipment that they needed to carry out their mission.  They only

16     supplied UNPROFOR units.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   And to the other question, my answer is that humanitarian convoys

19     carried supplies for the civilian population.  That population could be

20     either in RS territory or in the territory controlled by the Muslim Croat

21     forces.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you should recall that this question

24     was put to the witness already yesterday and answered by the witness.

25     You should try to avoid repetitions.

Page 18379

 1             Please carry on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

 3     establish a link now.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Kralj, tell us if UNPROFOR directly contacted the Main Staff

 6     when they wanted to enter VRS controlled territory, or did they contact

 7     anybody else?  Thank you.

 8        A.   UNPROFOR directly contacted the Main Staff of the VRS through

 9     their Pale office, which was in accordance with the agreed procedures.

10     These procedures were agreed by the central joint commission.

11        Q.   Thank you.  These other organisations, UNHCR,

12     International Committee of the Red Cross, Doctors Without Frontiers, how

13     did they announce their arrival in RS territory?  Please explain, thank

14     you.

15        A.   Humanitarian organisations, once the co-ordination body of the

16     government was set up, were obliged to submit their requests to that

17     co-ordination body, which was -- which had the exclusive authority for

18     issuing approvals for the movement of humanitarian aid convoys.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if that co-ordinating body decided how

20     much food could be carried for the enclaves or was somebody else who took

21     such decisions, such as the donors themselves or?  Thank you.

22        A.   As for food, the government co-ordination body often held

23     meetings with representatives of those organisations.  It was the donors

24     who decided on the total quantities of food, so it was up to them to

25     decide how much food they would transport to or through the RS, and the

Page 18380

 1     co-ordinating body only decided how much could pass in a given period.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What was the role of the VRS, then, with regard to

 3     those UNHCR convoys and other humanitarian aid convoys?  What were the

 4     duties of the VRS in that respect?  Thank you.

 5        A.   The duty of the VRS was to inspect the convoys upon their entry

 6     in or exit from VRS controlled territory.  They had to guarantee their

 7     free passage along the approved routes.  They also had to keep a

 8     register.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see document D307

11     now.  Thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We see here a document of the Main Staff of the VRS, dated

14     16 January 1994.  The subject line reads:  "Implementation of the Orders

15     by the RS President, Communication."  The reference is also to a document

16     in the line below, and it says:

17             "Pursuant to the order of the president of the RS,

18     Dr. Radovan Karadzic, item 3 of order," so-and-so, that's an order of

19     15 January 1994, "is hereby amended and shall read:

20             "Any dispute issues with representatives of UNPROFOR and military

21     observers shall be resolved exclusively through the corps commands and

22     the Main Staff of the VRS and with international humanitarian

23     organisations through the government co-ordination body for humanitarian

24     aid.

25             "Commander Lieutenant-Colonel Ratko Mladic."

Page 18381

 1             Now my question is this:  Can you give us some examples of these

 2     disputed issues because of which this order was drafted?  What kind of

 3     issues were those?  What happened when convoys passed through and there

 4     was a need for communication with them?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Some UNPROFOR military observers at individual check-points,

 6     especially around Sarajevo, were prone not to respect the time and the

 7     place of passage.  Some vehicles would be announced at one time and would

 8     arrive a day earlier.

 9             As for humanitarian organisations, some were not aware of the

10     rules, such as Karitas in the Banja Luka region or Merhamet.  They tried

11     hard to get approval from the corps to enter RS territory or territory

12     controlled by Muslim Croat forces.  In order to alleviate the pressure

13     that arose due to many such issues, this solution was --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.  The

15     interpreter didn't understand.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the last sentence.  The

17     interpreters didn't catch it.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This solution, namely giving

19     authority to the corps command to deal with some minor issues concerning

20     UNPROFOR, reduced the pressure on the VRS Main Staff to deal with petty

21     issues that can successfully be dealt with by corps commands.  It was in

22     their mutual interest, especially in the interest of UNPROFOR, because

23     they constantly demanded to be allowed more contacts with lower-ranking

24     units.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 18382

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether the obligation to

 2     report or to announce the convoys a day before was a protocol matter or

 3     were there other reasons why there was a request to announce the convoy's

 4     movement 24 hours in advance?  Thank you.

 5        A.   The duty to announce the convoys 24 hours in advance -- actually,

 6     this referred to military observers, for the convoys the period was

 7     48 hours in advance, so in view of the situation in the field it was war,

 8     it was a combat zone, and the corps command had to create conditions

 9     secure enough for the said convoy to pass safely to its destination at

10     the announced time.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P68 in e-court.

13     Actually, P689.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this is coming up, I would like to ask you

15     about the document D307 we have just had on the screen.  That was

16     previously in August 2011 MFI'd pending translation.  As we could see,

17     the translation is available.  Are you tendering it now in full?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

19     Defence would like to tender it in its entirety.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  It will be received as D307.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we look at page 2

22     in the Serbian, please.  Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Well, let's look at article 6.  This is a decision on the

25     appointment of a committee for co-operation with the UN and the

Page 18383

 1     international humanitarian organisations.  It's dated the

 2     14th of March, 1995.  Thank you, Aleksandar.  I would kindly ask you to

 3     look at article 6, please, which states the following:

 4             "Permits for the movement of convoys and employees of the UN and

 5     humanitarian organisations on the territory of Republika Srpska shall be

 6     issued by the co-ordinating body for humanitarian operations, pursuant to

 7     committee decisions."

 8             Can we now look at article 7, which states:

 9             "The committee shall adopt special rules of procedure for issuing

10     permits for the movement of convoys and employees of the UN and

11     humanitarian organisations on the territory of Republika Srpska," end of

12     quote from article 7.

13             My question is:  The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska,

14     could it change this decision by the committee permitting the movement of

15     convoys in the territory of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.

16        A.   General, sir, this is a document that can only be amended by the

17     body that issued it.  The Main Staff did not have the authority to alter

18     government documents.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the decision on

21     the appointment of a president, vice-president, and members of the state

22     committee for co-operation with the United Nations and international

23     humanitarian organisations.  Thank you.  We can see that now on our

24     screen.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 18384

 1        Q.   We're looking at article 1 and 2 which comprise the document.

 2     In -- article 2 has nine items.  Let's read item 1:

 3             "Head of the co-ordinating -- Professor Nikola Koljevic, deputy

 4     president of Republika Srpska, is hereby appointed president of the state

 5     committee for co-operation with the UN and international humanitarian

 6     organisations.  Maxim Stanisic is hereby appointed deputy president of

 7     the state committee for co-operation with the UN and international

 8     humanitarian organisations."

 9             In article 2 that follows, under item 7, it states:

10             The members are listed here.

11             And then in item 7 it states:

12             "Let Colonel Milos Djurdjic -- co-ordinator for the committee's

13     relations with the Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff of the

14     Army of Republika Srpska."

15             So do you know, perhaps, what was the role of this co-ordinator

16     of the committee of the Main Staff of the ministry and the Ministry of

17     Defence?

18        A.   As we can see in article 2, item 7, this references to

19     Colonel Milos Djurdjic.  His role in line with the responsibilities of

20     the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the corps whose --

21     through whose territory these convoys would pass was -- first of all,

22     before the passage of the passage of the convoys [Realtime transcript

23     read in error "advise"] was approved, he was to see if the convoy -- if

24     the situation was safe enough for the convoys to pass.  And then after

25     that, when the convoy passage was approved by the co-ordination body, it

Page 18385

 1     was his job to see that this was safely implemented.  They were to

 2     inspect the convoys and to keep a record of the goods that were in the

 3     convoy that was passing through.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D79 in e-court,

 6     please, which is marked for identification.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this comes up, one correction for the

 8     record, page 9, line 21.  The word "advise" should read "convoys."  Thank

 9     you.

10             Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We're

12     now looking at Exhibit D79.  This is an order from the president of

13     Republika Srpska which states -- actually, the date is the

14     13th of June, 1995.  We're interested in article 2, page 2, point 7.

15     Actually, it's page 2, item 7.  And we can see item 7 now which states:

16             "To allow ICRC convoy Zenica-Sarajevo with medical supplies that

17     will be distributed to the Serb and Muslim side along the route that the

18     Supreme HQ of the Army of Republika Srpska assesses as safe.  To avoid

19     the route via Ilijas."

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   My question is this:  What was the role of the Main Staff in

22     relation to this ICRC convoy?  Thank you.  What was the role of the

23     Main Staff?

24        A.   The role of the Main Staff was to assess whether the route was

25     safe for passage of said convoy, and it states here "to avoid the route

Page 18386

 1     via Ilijas" because that route was not safe.  The president already knew

 2     that this route was not safe.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to explain to the Trial Chamber why it

 4     wasn't safe, if you know?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Well, I don't have precise information, but I know that there was

 6     some actions underway.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In this case who was in charge of the convoy's

 8     safety, the convoy that was announced by the president of

 9     Republika Srpska announcing its passage through the territory of

10     Republika Srpska?  Thank you.

11        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska was in charge of the passage of the

12     convoy or, rather, the Main Staff was through the corps.  They were to

13     deal with all matters relating to the safe passage of the convoy through

14     the territory, especially because it was carrying medical supplies that

15     were in short supply everywhere.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell us if a convoy announced in this

17     way was subject to checks and who carried out these checks at the

18     check-points?  Thank you.

19        A.   This convoy was subject to the usual control, which implied

20     inspecting the personnel and the equipment that was being carried.  They

21     were also obliged to have a list with them of the equipment that they

22     were carrying or which equipment or medicines were approved by the

23     co-ordination body.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

Page 18387

 1     document now, please.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was already tendered through Witness Nicolai,

 3     but only marked for identification because the Witness Nicolai couldn't

 4     provide us with any information about this document.  Now it will be

 5     received as D79.

 6             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

 8     like to look at document 1D935 in e-court, please.  Thank you.  Thank

 9     you, Aleksandar.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Kralj, are you able to tell us what kind of document this is?

12     Can you tell what it refers to, who is sending it to whom?  Thank you.

13        A.   This is a document of the co-ordinating board for humanitarian

14     aid, dated the 17th of May, 1995.  It's signed by Dragan Kekic.  The

15     document refers to the UNHCR humanitarian organisation, its Belgrade

16     office, that was supposed to do the following by the 25th of May pursuant

17     to the central plan for equipment supplies.  By that date, it was

18     supposed to transport a satellite telex, satellite equipment, computers,

19     adapters.  You cannot really see it that well here.

20             Anyway, it was supposed to transport this equipment for the needs

21     of the UNHCR office.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please read out the first line.

23        A.   "Permission is given for request JUG/PAL/HCR/0241."

24        Q.   Thank you.  I was thinking of the note in the text, just below

25     the paragraph.

Page 18388

 1        A.   Could you please zoom in?  It's too small.

 2             "A weekly plan is hereby approved with the exception of note 3 on

 3     page 3."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did the co-ordination body presided over by

 5     Dragan Kekic forward notes such as this that had to be abided by both

 6     those on the convoy and those inspecting it; otherwise, they wouldn't

 7     know his notes and remarks were about?  In other words, did he forward

 8     such documents to both parties involved?

 9        A.   Copies of the same document were sent to both the UNHCR and the

10     Main Staff of the VRS.

11        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Further down the page, just under the

15     26th of May, 1995, it reads:

16             "In addition to the permission, a copy of the approved request

17     and a copy of the bill of lading must be presented.  A copy of the bill

18     of lading must be sent to the co-ordinating body through the commission

19     inspector or the border police at the border crossing."

20             Tell us, please, what this instruction was intended for or for

21     whom?

22        A.   This was an instruction aimed at the UNHCR, stating that they

23     have to be in possession of valid documents.  The border people knew of

24     this requirement as well, since the convoy was supposed to go via

25     Karakaj.  There was no combat activity there; thus, the civilian police

Page 18389

 1     also played an important role at the border crossing there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Why was it necessary that was person forwarding this

 3     document forwarded this to the Main Staff of the VRS as well, by the same

 4     token?

 5        A.   The Main Staff of the VRS was in charge of control along the

 6     demarcation lines facing the enemy.  This was for the purposes of

 7     control, escort, and an ability to inspect the cargo.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Who was authorised to notify the check-point in

 9     question about the contents of this document?  When someone was to cross

10     the border, who was supposed to notify the border crossing staff?

11        A.   The Main Staff of the VRS was authorised to inform the border

12     crossing staff of the crossing of a convoy along its lines of command.

13        Q.   If the co-ordinating body rejected an UNHCR request or a request

14     by some other humanitarian organisations, was the Main Staff informed of

15     it?

16        A.   The Main Staff was informed regularly about any changes and

17     failure to grant the passage of a convoy.

18        Q.   Was this another control measure so as to prevent someone who had

19     originally been rejected to try to cross anyway?

20        A.   Of course.  If there was an omission or a situation in which

21     someone possessed documents which were not confirmed and accepted, they

22     would still be unable to cross over without the consent of the

23     Main Staff.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have this admitted,

25     please?  Thank you, Aleksandar.

Page 18390

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D935 shall be

 3     assigned Exhibit D338.  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have 1D01044.

 5             We can see that this is a document of the Main Staff of the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska, dated the 22nd July, 1994.  It was sent to the

 7     Drina and Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  It was signed by General Milovanovic

 8     as we will see on page 2.

 9             Could we have that page, please.  Thank you.  Let us now go back

10     to page 1.  Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Let us look at the first sentence by General Milovanovic:

13             "We are hereby inform you that the co-ordination body of the RS

14     government for humanitarian operations approved the movement," but it

15     seems to be illegible, "of the teams and convoys of humanitarian

16     organisations."

17             And then we have a specification of individual teams and convoys.

18     Towards the bottom of the page it says:

19             "Carry out a check ..."

20             It is the second paragraph from the bottom.

21             "Carry out a check and ensure unhindered movement on the roads

22     approved."

23             My question is this:  Did General Milovanovic appropriately use

24     the authority invested in the Main Staff of the VRS when it comes to

25     convoys and humanitarian assistance?

Page 18391

 1        A.   General, sir, I'd like you -- to remind you of the formulation

 2     which says:

 3             "We are hereby inform you that the co-ordination body

 4     approved ..."

 5             In other words, the units in question are reminded of the fact

 6     that the co-ordinating body is the body which approved the delivery of

 7     humanitarian assistance as specified, a followup of which is an

 8     instruction to carry out a check and ensure movement on the roads

 9     approved.  It indicates that the co-ordinating body is the body which

10     made the decision on the convoy to pass through.  It was the obligation

11     of the army, or, rather, of the personnel at the check-point to carry out

12     the check and ensure movement on the roads approved.  This is different

13     compared to the previous period when the Main Staff was issuing

14     approvals.

15        Q.   Was this the period prior to 1994?

16        A.   Yes, prior to 1994.

17        Q.   Have a look at the last paragraph on this page.  It reads:

18             "The Drina Corps command must urgently gather, arrange, and

19     submit the overview of humanitarian aid delivered to Srebrenica, Zepa,

20     and Gorazde for the month of July this year.  The types and quantities of

21     the following goods must be listed in the overview:"

22             Now we can go to the next page.  We have a number of items

23     listed.  The document goes on to say the following:

24             "As of 22 July 1994 note all the types and quantities of goods

25     during the checks."

Page 18392

 1             In the corps commands which had bodies tasks with the functioning

 2     of check-points within the area of responsibility in question, were there

 3     registers and log-books kept of the amounts and types of goods that went

 4     through the territory of the RS for the needs of the enclaves Srebrenica,

 5     Gorazde, and Zepa as mentioned in this document?  Thank you.

 6        A.   The commands had designated personnel who were in charge of

 7     keeping lists and records of goods.  As of the 22nd of July, 1994, a

 8     particular emphasis was placed on that aspect as a result of this order.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender the document on

10     the screen, which is 1D01044 so that we can move on to the next document.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D339.  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

15     you, Mr. Registrar.

16             Could we next have D209.  Thank you.  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   On the screen is a document of the Drina Corps command of the

19     3rd of May, 1995.  It is a breakdown of humanitarian aid to the Muslim

20     enclaves for March and April 1995.  There are items from number 1 through

21     to 26, and there is a breakdown for March and April, and as well as per

22     enclave.

23             My question is this:  Did you at the Main Staff have access to

24     these records kept by the units in the field within whose areas of

25     responsibility the enclaves were, and did you make use of it?  Was it of

Page 18393

 1     assistance to you to have such breakdowns and produce summaries?

 2        A.   The Drina Corps pursuant to our request - that is the request

 3     made by Colonel Djurdjic - submitted summary breakdowns of what had been

 4     transported to enclaves during a given period.  Those summaries were like

 5     this one on the screen.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could your organ always give the commander of the

 7     Main Staff information about the quantities of food and other items

 8     delivered to enclaves for any given month?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Our organ was able to provide information at short notice to the

10     commander of the Main Staff, pursuant to his request.  That information

11     would be about total quantities of individual kinds of goods during a

12     given month or by convoy.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did Colonel Djurdjic, who worked with you and who was

14     chief of the civilian affairs sector, have accurate information about the

15     quantity of articles that arrived in the previous months and was he aware

16     of the needs of the soldiers and civilian population as concerns

17     individual food stuffs?  Thank you.

18        A.   Colonel Djurdjic had the necessary information about the

19     population and the enclave and UNPROFOR presence.  He also had

20     information about the quantities of goods delivered to the individual

21     enclaves during any given period.  The information was accurate or,

22     rather, accurately collected, especially after that order that we saw, I

23     think it was dated 22 July 1994.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

25             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

Page 18394

 1             I just need to take you back to -- I am addressing this question

 2     to the witness.  I want to take you back to page 17 of today's

 3     transcript, starting with line 18.  I am referring specifically to the

 4     question by General Tolimir where he said:

 5             "Did you at the Main Staff [Realtime transcript read in error

 6     "ministry"] have access to these records kept by the units in the field

 7     within whose areas of responsibility the enclaves were, and did you make

 8     use of it?"

 9             I don't think in your answer you answered those questions.  Do

10     you think you can answer those questions for me, please?  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand this part about

12     the "ministry" because I was at the Main Staff of the VRS.

13             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  Then the followup question was:

14             "Was it of assistance to you to have such breakdowns ...?"

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was of great assistance to have

16     such breakdowns.  It enabled us to inform the commander how much was

17     delivered to the individual enclaves when he demanded such information.

18             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a followup question to you.  Perhaps

20     you misunderstood or it was a translation issue, the question of

21     Mr. Tolimir repeated by my colleague Judge Nyambe.  There was no

22     reference to a ministry.  The question was:

23             "Did you at the Main Staff have access to these records kept by

24     the units in the field?"

25             There was only a reference to the Main Staff.  Could you now

Page 18395

 1     answer the question, please?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pursuant to requests by

 3     Colonel Djurdjic, the units regularly submitted such reports.  Usually

 4     that would be a summary monthly report.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for your answer.

 6             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Kralj, did Colonel Djurdjic take care that everything was

10     done in accordance with the relevant standards and did he inform the

11     Chief of Staff of anything being or not being in accordance with the

12     standards?  Thank you.

13        A.   Colonel Djurdjic had access to the applicable standards, and if

14     he noticed that something deviated from the standards he would point that

15     out to the commander or whoever had the duty to take the relevant

16     decision.  He would inform that person that a quantity was either normal

17     or otherwise and thus usable for other purposes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Main Staff in case of abnormal or great

19     quantities able to conclude that what was actually being done was the

20     setting up of war reserves by either UNPROFOR or humanitarian

21     organisations?  Was the Main Staffs able to draw such a conclusion based

22     on the breakdowns we mentioned?

23        A.   It was possible to conclude that reserves were being formed based

24     on monitoring the quantities of goods entering the enclaves.  Those goods

25     could either be -- could either have been transported there by UNPROFOR

Page 18396

 1     or by other organisations.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see

 4     65 ter 1787.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Please enlarge because the witness

 5     has repeatedly requested the enlargement of the document because the

 6     letters are small.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This is a document of the Main Staff dated 7 March, 1995.  It

 9     says, I quote:

10             "We would like to inform you that we approve the authorisation

11     kot number 361," and there is a number of abbreviations and so on.

12             Do you know what these abbreviations stand for and what is this

13     all about?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj, can you read that or should it be

15     zoomed in?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just read about half, a little

17     more.  It would be good if it could be enlarged, though.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it is difficult to enlarge it.  Yes,

19     exactly.  That --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's better legible now.

21             The first thing I notice is that this is an open text that was

22     sent to the command of military post number 7111 and military post

23     number 7598.  These are the civilian designations of military post

24     numbers that were used for the delivery of mail; that is, the

25     communication channel was not a protected military channel.  And then it

Page 18397

 1     says:

 2             "We would like to inform you that we approve the authorisation

 3     kot for hp ..."

 4             This is the co-ordinating body for humanitarian aid of the

 5     Republika Srpska.  And then a reference is made to document 361-MKCK

 6     which stands for International Committee of the Red Cross which was filed

 7     at Pale under number 95/265/n.  It refers to the delivery of medical

 8     material from Pale to Zepa.  Departure on 8 March and return on the same

 9     day along the route Pale-Podromanija-Rogatica-Zepa and back along the

10     same route.  The team consists of the persons mentioned here:

11     Miljana Jelic, ID 2328 - ID standing for identity document - she had that

12     document as a member of that humanitarian aid organisation.  The second

13     person mentioned is Danijela Krneta, whose ID number is 2322.  And then

14     there are the vehicles yg 019 Geneva.  The vehicle number is 5244.  The

15     second vehicle is yg 140 Geneva 5294.  These are the license plate

16     numbers on the vehicles of the ICRC.  Content:  ICRC mail such as letters

17     and whatever.  Then personnel belongings and medical material, as listed

18     in the document carried by the team leader.

19             I would like to say that the International Committee of the

20     Red Cross is one of the international organisations -- can you hear me?

21     One of the organisations which was impartial in this process and never

22     created problems when it comes to following procedures.  On this

23     occasion, they were given approval to carry a list showing the quantity

24     of goods they were carrying.  And based on that list, an inspection was

25     made and report was drafted.  It also goes on to say:

Page 18398

 1             "Check and enable free passage on the approved routes."

 2             Can we scroll down?

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This will do for the moment.  Let's keep it this way because I

 5     want to ask you about the first line of this cable.  Thank you.

 6             The first sentence of this cable reads:

 7             "We would like to inform you that we" --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  "Approve of the authorisation," it should be.

 9     Interpreter's remark.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Why this language, "inform you that we approve of"?  For whom is

12     this meant?

13        A.   This word, "approve," well it wasn't really necessary.  It would

14     have been enough to say, We inform you that the co-ordination body

15     approved this or that.  But the operatives added this word because they

16     were wont to use such phrases, but this document could have -- could have

17     been drafted without this word, too.

18        Q.   And this, "We would like to inform you that we approve ...," does

19     that refer to -- actually, who does that refer to?  Thank you.  To whom

20     is this sent?

21        A.   This is sent to the check-point, to the military post.

22        Q.   Thank you.  According to what you know, did the Main Staff review

23     at any point whether it should give its approval or not to the decision

24     of the co-ordinating board?

25        A.   The Main Staff did take part in the process before the

Page 18399

 1     co-ordinating body reached its decision.  If it received the body's

 2     decision, then it was supposed to implement it, not to give its approval

 3     if the decision had already been made.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell us how the Main Staff knew what

 5     some humanitarian organisation was requesting and how did it know that?

 6        A.   The Main Staff would receive information or the request from the

 7     co-ordinating body.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And the co-ordinator of the co-ordinating body of the

 9     Main Staff, did they have any influence or effect on that decision?

10     Thank you.

11        A.   The co-ordinator had any influence only in the area of control

12     and to indicate whether certain routes were safe for passage.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When you're talking about security, your department

14     for civilian affairs, did it have information as to how and in what way

15     the inhabitants acted towards the convoys that were passing through the

16     territory of Republika Srpska or the territory which was controlled by

17     the enemy?  Thank you.

18        A.   There were revolts by the inhabitants in some areas opposing the

19     passage of the humanitarian aid convoys through the territory under the

20     control of the Muslim Croat forces or to the territory under the control

21     of the Muslim Croat forces, especially in the direction of Tesanj towards

22     Travnik and also in the direction of Zepa and Srebrenica.

23        Q.   Are you able to tell us why the inhabitants demonstrated this

24     kind of attitude towards the convoys that were supplying the Muslim Croat

25     federation territory through the territory of Republika Srpska?  Thank

Page 18400

 1     you.

 2        A.   The combat actions with soldiers who were from the families at

 3     the line of separation were killed, wounded, from certain places in the

 4     territory of the Army of Republika Srpska.  There were incursions by

 5     groups or small groups that were carrying out different massacres.  This

 6     is the first thing.

 7             The second thing is during a certain period there was no aid from

 8     those organisations distributed to the population of Republika Srpska.

 9     So they were dissatisfied.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Are you talking about the period when there were

11     sanctions imposed by the United Nations and by humanitarian organisations

12     imposed by countries that were opposed, and they were imposed on

13     Republika Srpska?

14        A.   Yes, this does refer to that period.  I stress that Serbia also

15     had imposed sanctions, whereby the humanitarian situation in

16     Republika Srpska was even more difficult.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber how the

18     Main Staff dealt with this resistance by the inhabitants since they were

19     those that they were not in friendly relations with but they were

20     receiving humanitarian assistance?  Thank you.

21        A.   The Main Staff took all measures, including escorts of the

22     convoys, up to the line of confrontation, and then in some cases also the

23     civilian police participated where this was deemed necessary, such as was

24     the case in the 1st Krajina Corps where the convoys moved along a longer

25     route from Gradiska through Banja Luka, Jajce and towards Travnik.

Page 18401

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think we must have our first break

 2     now and we will resume at 11.00.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would just like to

 4     give you an explanation.  I am obliged to tell Mr. Vanderpuye that today

 5     he will be able to begin his cross-examination of this witness.  This is

 6     something that I promised yesterday.  We are going to finish in the next

 7     session.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this information.  It is

 9     appreciated.  We adjourn.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we continue with the examination of the

15     witness, I would just shortly raise one matter.  The parties will be

16     aware of the fact that the Defence in the Perisic case urgently

17     requested, yesterday afternoon, access to confidential material in our

18     case.

19             We all realise that in their case it is a very urgent matter.

20     Therefore, I would kindly ask the parties if they are in a position to

21     respond to that orally tomorrow morning and to give us their position on

22     this requested so that we can address that, we, as a Chamber, address

23     this matter by filing as soon as possible.

24             Would that be possible for both parties to give oral submissions

25     tomorrow morning at the outset of the hearing tomorrow morning?

Page 18402

 1             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  Of course, we'll be

 3     prepared to address the Trial Chamber.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             And the Defence?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

 7     Defence is also prepared.  We can even say now that we are in agreement

 8     that everything that was requested can be disclosed, so you can consider

 9     that we have stated our opinion now instead of tomorrow.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

11             In this case, I would ask the Prosecution if they are in a

12     position to ...

13                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First I want to continue my sentence.  I just

15     gave you the opportunity to consult.  I wanted to ask if you are in a

16     position to make an oral submission already today, either now or at the

17     end of today's hearing?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We may be able to do it at the end of the

19     hearing, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That is very helpful.

21             So if we have resolved this problem, then we should continue the

22     examination of the witness.

23             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor again.

24             Just a moment, Judge Mindua has a question.

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to go back

Page 18403

 1     to something that was said just before the break, page 23, line 23 of

 2     today's transcript.

 3             We can see and read in English the following sentence that:

 4             "... the co-ordinator of the co-ordinating body of the

 5     Main Staff ..."

 6             That's what you said.  So I just wanted to get a clarification.

 7     Are you saying that within the co-ordination commission, which belonged

 8     to the government, there was a representative of the Main Staff and that

 9     person also had the title of a co-ordinator?  Is that what you wanted to

10     say or is there a mistake in the transcript?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj, you can see that -- the relevant part

12     on the screen now, page 23, line 23.  Perhaps the Court Usher can assist

13     the witness.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a co-ordinator representing

15     the Main Staff for co-operation with the co-ordinating body.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  So what you are

17     telling us is that this is not a VRS co-ordination commission, but it's

18     rather the co-ordinator who is the representative of the Main Staff

19     within the co-ordination commission; is that it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj, I have another question I would like

23     to put to you.  Just before the break, and this is on page 24, lines 19

24     and 20, you said the following, and it will appear to the screen in a

25     moment.  You said, and I quote:

Page 18404

 1             "There were incursions by groups or small groups that were

 2     carrying out different massacres."

 3             Could you give us some more details about what you were saying?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was in the territory of

 5     Srebrenica going towards or directed at Kravica with Muslim groups making

 6     incursions into the territory, although the territory was already under

 7     the control of UNPROFOR.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what do you mean by "different massacres"?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Individual killings, either of

10     civilians or members of the army.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To understand your statement in full, is it

12     correct that you are saying Muslim groups encircled Serb groups and

13     comitted massacres?  Is that what you are saying?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is it.  There were sudden

15     attacks of small groups which could attack and pull-out unhindered.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In which time-period did that happen?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the course of 1994.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Tolimir, thank you for your patience.  Please carry on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   During the last session we discussed the issue of humanitarian

23     organisations and problems which arose when they crossed RS territory to

24     reach federation territory which was under Muslim BH Army control, and

25     they provided supplies to them.  Can you tell us something more about the

Page 18405

 1     problems you have just discussed with us, which occurred between May and

 2     late June 1995?  Thank you.

 3        A.   There were continued attacks on the units and civilians which

 4     came from the territory of Srebrenica.  Srebrenica at the time was under

 5     UNPROFOR control.  There were several such instances, including groups,

 6     individuals, reconnaissance activities, and killings of both civilians

 7     and soldiers.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Kindly tell us whether this situation in which the

 9     groups attacked civilians and soldiers in RS territory and in the

10     protected areas had an impact on the overall situation with the convoys

11     which supplied them and UNPROFOR which protected them before they

12     returned to the territory which was controlled by their forces?

13        A.   It was the basic reason why the population in those areas

14     objected to both UNPROFOR and the convoys.

15        Q.   Thank you.  While we are on this topic, tell us if you know

16     whether there were such attacks on the Main Staff, on the roads, and

17     villages?  Were any villages torched by the sabotage groups which came

18     from the territory of the Muslim Croat federation or from Srebrenica and

19     Zepa?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the accused be asked

21     to turn the microphone towards him, not away from him?  We have trouble

22     hearing him.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj, did you hear the interpreter's note?

24     Please turn the microphone -- turn the microphones toward your head so

25     that the interpreter's can hear you better.

Page 18406

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The accused, please.  Not

 2     the witness.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I made a mistake.  I thought it was an address to

 4     Mr. Kralj.  It was an address to you, Mr. Tolimir.  Yes, thank you.

 5             Mr. Kralj, now your answer, please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were attacks on the

 7     Main Staff of the VRS which were repelled successfully.  There were

 8     attacks on the village as well.  The attack on the Main Staff of the VRS

 9     came from the direction of Zepa.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Tell us, please, whether there were

12     problems with convoy movements across RS territory during the bombing

13     campaign in May 1995 and later?  And I have in mind the bombing campaign

14     against the RS.

15        A.   General, sir, there were no problems.  During the bombing,

16     everyone stopped moving about, whether such movements had been announced,

17     planned or not.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Chamber who was it that halted all

19     convoy movement in May 1995?

20        A.   It was halted by those who sent the convoys.  It was not the

21     co-ordinating body but the UNHCR and other organisations.  They simply

22     did not see their plans through; although, they did not even notify us

23     that they would give up on their plans in the first place.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Between May and July 1995 when the attack on

25     Srebrenica occurred, was it a frequent occurrence or was it only specific

Page 18407

 1     to May 1995?

 2        A.   It was a common occurrence and it did not only take place in May.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did it also take place during the bombing of the RS

 4     by NATO, when different facilities were bombed in RS territory in August

 5     and September 1995?

 6        A.   There were no convoys arriving during August and September.  And

 7     especially so when there were immediate air-strikes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have problems communicating because the relay

 9     stations and other facilities were destroyed by bombing, and how did you

10     co-ordinate your work with the co-ordinating body and UNPROFOR in terms

11     of being able to relay messages?

12        A.   Due to bombardment and the fact that the relay stations were

13     destroyed, there were no telephone lines.  There were no other electronic

14     means to communicate, so we established courier connections.  In other

15     words, we sent a vehicle with a courier to transport mail on a daily

16     basis.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj, for your answers.  Can you tell us whether

18     your department for co-operation and civilian affairs, irrespective of

19     the bombing and other problems, always treated UNPROFOR and the

20     humanitarian organisations in the same way?

21        A.   We were professional.  It was our task to communicate with them,

22     irrespective of what was going on.  Nothing changed in our relationship

23     towards them, in particular.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you feel any change the way these international

25     bodies and organisations saw the VRS and RS population in terms of how

Page 18408

 1     they continued providing humanitarian assistance?

 2        A.   One could clearly see that they were afraid.  Later on, when

 3     things got back to normal, that co-operation improved again.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us what period exactly it is?  What month and year?

 5        A.   Following August and September 1995.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kralj, in the introductory part yesterday you

 7     said that you attended some talks in Vienna, and during your testimony

 8     you mentioned Vienna, Tolimir, and Talic.  Let us try and clear it up.

 9     Can you tell us what the talks in Vienna were about, the ones you and

10     Tolimir participated in and what were the activities of General Talic in

11     Vienna before he was arrested?

12        A.   Your Honour, I was a member of a negotiating team alongside

13     General Tolimir when the implementation of Annex 1D of the Dayton Accords

14     was concerned, in particular Articles II and IV.  Article II had to do

15     with confidence building measures between the VRS and BH Army and the

16     Federation and the RS.  It also had to do with the quantities and types

17     of weapons and control, mutual control, of those assets that the two

18     armed forces were entitled to under the article.  Article IV included

19     some other participants in the talks so as to include Croatia and the

20     then-FRY.  The talks took place under OSCE auspices.  That's the first

21     part.

22             The second part regarding General Talic.  Together with him, I

23     took part in a number of working meetings at a higher level, including

24     army commanders in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as ministers of defence.

25     We visited Brussels, London, and the last stop was Vienna when we talked

Page 18409

 1     to the OSCE again.  I wasn't present then, as that was the occasion when

 2     General Talic was arrested.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Can you tell the Chamber the month and

 4     year of the Vienna talks that you participated in with General Tolimir?

 5        A.   I think it was in late 1995.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Was an agreement signed as a result of those talks

 7     between the warring parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina and a number of

 8     different former Yugoslav republics?

 9        A.   All those meetings resulted in the signing of an agreement, which

10     was finalised by an agreement on the reduction of weapons assets in --

11     which in its final stage include Croatia and the FRY as well.

12        Q.   Did you take part in the implementation of the signed agreements,

13     and can you tell us when the implementation activities pertaining to the

14     agreements were undertaken?

15        A.   The first agreement we signed was the one under Article II.  Once

16     it was signed, it began being implemented right away.  Once the

17     Article IV agreement was signed and once the arms verification centre was

18     established, I acted as the leader of escort team on the RS side.  We

19     received Federation inspections as well as inspections from Croatia,

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Under

21     certain procedure which was arranged with the OSCE and the parties in

22     Vienna, our inspections, in turn, were received by the armed forces of

23     Croatia, the FRY, Bosnia and Herzegovina, although it did not have its

24     single armed force but they, too, wanted to be a side to the agreement.

25             In Vienna all information was exchanged about the weapons of each

Page 18410

 1     of the sides in keeping with the agreement.  I was often present at such

 2     occasions with General Tolimir.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, now, did the activities to implement the

 4     disarmament agreement and arms control continue throughout 1996 in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?  Thank you.

 6        A.   1996 was a year of -- marked by activities under these

 7     agreements, especially activities aimed at the reduction of the quantity

 8     of weapons.  There were more weapons than envisaged by the agreement.  In

 9     the agreement there were specific limits with regard to calibre, the

10     number of pieces, and so on, that each party was entitled to have.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you and I, as RS negotiators, report regularly on

12     everything that we comitted to on behalf of the RS with regard to the

13     reduction of the quantity of weapons?  Did we report on that regularly to

14     both military and civilian authorities?  Thank you.

15        A.   That was a very topical matter during that period.  After any

16     action taken by the commission in Vienna, a report was drafted that was

17     sent to both the Main Staff and the civilian authorities of the RS.

18        Q.   Thank you.  How much of your time did that take?  I mean the

19     preparations for the implementation of the agreement within the RS?

20     Thank you.

21        A.   It took a lot of our time.  There was a need to establish a

22     separate group within the department to deal with these matters, such as

23     the preparation of information, the forwarding of information about

24     weapons, the collecting, and later a separate body had to be established

25     for these inspections and for receiving inspectors.

Page 18411

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj, for coming to this Tribunal to testify

 2     about past events.  Thank you for replies you gave.  The Defence has no

 3     more questions for you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you,

 5     Mr. President.  We can now give the Prosecution the opportunity to

 6     examine the witness.

 7             I would just kindly ask for an opportunity to see the witness

 8     after this examination later on in the Detention Unit, because the

 9     witness has expressed such a wish.  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  There are two matters:

12     One is that there is still one document on the screen.  This is

13     65 ter 1787.  Are you tendering it?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you for reminding us,

15     Mr. President.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

18     Exhibit D340.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the other matter, you asked for the

20     opportunity to meet Witness Kralj.  This will be decided at a later

21     stage, and we will come back to that.

22             Now it's the turn for the Prosecution for their

23     cross-examination.

24             Mr. Vanderpuye, you have the floor.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

Page 18412

 1     Your Honours.  Good morning everyone.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 3        Q.   And good morning to you, Mr. Kralj.  My name is Kweku Vanderpuye.

 4     On behalf of the Prosecution I am going to put some questions to you in

 5     respect of your direct examination which has just been completed by

 6     General Tolimir.  If I ask you anything that's unclear, let me know, and

 7     I will try to rephrase it or state it in a way that we can better

 8     understand one another.  And if there is anything you would like me to

 9     repeat, also let me know, and I will do the same.

10             Let me just start by asking you a couple of questions.

11     General Tolimir just mentioned that you had expressed a desire to see him

12     following your testimony here today.  That's correct, isn't it?

13        A.   I expressed the desire to visit him at the Detention Unit, and I

14     submitted the documents required for that.  I did that on Monday.

15        Q.   When was the last time you saw General Tolimir before you had

16     been testifying here?

17        A.   Some 15 years ago.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

19             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just so there is no

20     misunderstanding, as far as I know both Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Kralj

21     submitted the required documents for a visit tomorrow rather than today.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the end of the trial.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is only to be considered for a time

24     after your testimony.

25             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

Page 18413

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   You said that the last time you saw General Tolimir was some

 3     15 years ago.  Have you been in contact with members of his Defence

 4     before testifying here?

 5        A.   My first contact with Aleksandar was a telephone conversation in

 6     which he asked me if I would be willing to testify in this trial.  That

 7     was some 20 days ago.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now you've indicated your first contact.  How many

 9     contacts did you have with, when you say Aleksandar, I assume you mean

10     Mr. Gajic, before testifying in these proceedings?

11        A.   When I heard that it would be about a subject matter with which I

12     am familiar, I agreed.  Upon arriving to The Hague on the 21st, I had

13     consultations with him.  That was on a Saturday and Sunday.

14        Q.   When you say you had consultations with him, what do you mean by

15     that?

16        A.   The gentleman acquainted me with the procedures applied by this

17     Tribunal and with the parts of the indictment - he didn't go into

18     details, however - and he said what the hearing would be about.  I

19     replied that I had previously testified in General Miletic's trial.  I

20     understood that the subject matter to be dealt with was the work of the

21     civilian affairs department and that the most important point would be

22     the prevention of the passage of humanitarian aid convoys.

23        Q.   All right.  So you discussed the basic subject matter of your

24     testimony with Mr. Gajic; is that fair to say?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18414

 1        Q.   And you also informed Mr. Gajic that you had testified in the

 2     case in the Defence of General Miletic back in 2008 December; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  I told him that I had testified, but I didn't go into the

 4     details.

 5        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review your testimony in that

 6     case, that is the case of Prosecutor versus Popovic et al., your

 7     testimony from 3 through 5 December 2008 in the Defence of Radivoje

 8     Miletic, one of the accused in that case?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Have you reviewed that testimony since you testified in 2008?

11        A.   No, I haven't.

12        Q.   Can you confirm to this Trial Chamber that that testimony that

13     you gave was as truthful and accurate as it could have been in the

14     circumstances at the time?

15        A.   The testimony was truthful, given the circumstances at the time.

16     I believe I would give the same testimony even today.

17        Q.   That's helpful to know.  General Tolimir asked you a lot of

18     questions about the facts and circumstances surrounding the events in

19     1995 and, indeed, periods beyond and preceding that, and you seem to have

20     a pretty good recollection of some of that material.  Let me ask you,

21     Mr. Kralj, can you tell the Trial Chamber when it was that you first

22     heard that thousands of Muslim men from Srebrenica had been murdered in

23     July 1995 by Serb forces?

24        A.   Your Honours, it was published in the media, the BH Federation

25     media.  I saw it on television.  And I saw it only a few days after the

Page 18415

 1     alleged events.

 2        Q.   When would that be?  The end of July?  Beginning of August?  Can

 3     you give us some indication.

 4        A.   In late July.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let me ask you a couple of questions about your

 6     background.  Now, you were assigned to the VRS Main Staff I think you

 7     indicated on the 3rd of November, 1994; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You came there from the 1st Krajina Corps?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   While you were in the Krajina Corps, you performed the functions

12     of a liaison officer with international organisations and UNPROFOR and

13     the like; right?

14        A.   I was a member of the civilian affairs sector of the corps and

15     that was their duty.  That is correct.

16        Q.   When you went to the Main Staff, you worked there as an officer

17     in the sector for civilian affairs; is that correct?

18        A.   I was an officer and an interpreter.  Actually, that was my main

19     duty, to interpret into and from English.  And I was assigned to the

20     civilian affairs sector, headed by Colonel Djurdjic, to work there.

21        Q.   Colonel Djurdjic headed up the civilian affairs sector.  You were

22     one of the members of that sector.  Did you work with Colonel Pandzic as

23     well?

24        A.   I also collaborated with Colonel Pandzic.

25        Q.   Besides the three of you, who else worked in that sector?

Page 18416

 1        A.   Let me just clarify.  Colonel Pandzic did not belong to that

 2     sector.  He was a chief of aviation.  We only collaborated with him

 3     concerning UNPROFOR helicopter sorties toward protected zones, so he did

 4     not belong to that sector.  He was chief of aviation.

 5        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.  Who else worked in the sector?

 6        A.   When I came there, there were just Colonel Djurdjic and me.

 7        Q.   Was that the case throughout your tenure in that sector, or did

 8     that change?

 9        A.   The sector was later reinforced with personnel in the framework

10     of the implementation of Articles 4 and 2 of the agreement that we spoke

11     about.

12        Q.   In 1996?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So you collaborated with Colonel Pandzic who was a member of the

15     airforce.  Who else did you collaborate with?

16        A.   I personally was at the disposal of all those who submitted a

17     request to Colonel Djurdjic for an interpreter at meetings.  However, the

18     priorities were clearly defined.  The commander had the highest priority

19     and then it went further down along the chain of command.  That applied

20     in the case of simultaneous meetings.

21        Q.   Your sector liaised with international organisations; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   UNPROFOR?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   UNHCR?

Page 18417

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And other international organisations and NGOs; right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   You also had substantive responsibilities beyond being an

 5     interpreter; right?

 6        A.   In that sector to which I was assigned to work, my duty was to

 7     get acquainted with all documents and work procedures to be able to do

 8     administrative work during the absence of Colonel Djurdjic,

 9     administrative work that had to do with the functioning of the sector.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, that administrative work had to do with, for

11     example, inspecting check-points - right? - in relation to the movement

12     of convoy material?

13        A.   Yes, in a way.

14        Q.   "Yes, in a way."  What do you mean by that?

15        A.   We followed the problems that occurred at the check-points and

16     issued relevant guidelines or instructions in order to improve things.

17        Q.   You said yesterday that your role was to inspect the check-point,

18     draw up a short report as to whether the instructions were abided by,

19     that you were authorised to instruct personnel on how to communicate with

20     convoy members in an appropriate way.  You remember saying that?

21        A.   I remember.  That was my role in the 1st Krajina Corps where I

22     was liaison officer, and I was present both in the control of

23     check-points and I was involved in escorting convoys through RS territory

24     but that was there.  That was not the case when I was with the

25     Main Staff.

Page 18418

 1        Q.   I see.  So when you were with the Main Staff, you didn't engage

 2     whatsoever in the administration of check-points throughout, let's say,

 3     1995?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   So you had no idea how those convoys were actually being

 6     administered; is that right?  At the check-points, I should add.

 7        A.   I did have an idea how they were supposed to do it and I had an

 8     idea of how they did it, but that was not my duty.

 9        Q.   Did you train members of the convoys of -- of check-points?

10        A.   Could you please specify as to when and where?

11        Q.   During the period of time that you were in the Main Staff, did

12     you participate in training members of these convoy inspection units?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   You only did that in the Krajina Corps; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  I did that initially during the time when a particular

16     check-point was being set up.

17        Q.   And when you were in the Krajina Corps, you also made sure the

18     check-points were regularly reporting to the disposition of convoys -

19     right? - up the chain of command?

20        A.   That was the duty of the unit manning the check-point.  They had

21     means of communication, and in their combat report there was an item

22     about the situation in the territory which included the passage of

23     convoys, be it humanitarian or UNPROFOR convoys.

24        Q.   I understand whose duty it was.  My question is:  Did you make

25     sure that that duty was carried out?

Page 18419

 1        A.   This was part of my job.  I was maintaining records of all the

 2     reports that would reach the command.  The command was some 50 kilometres

 3     away from the check-point, so I wasn't at the check-point all the time.

 4     The reports would come to the command, to the sector for civilian

 5     affairs, to Colonel Vujnovic and then he would issue assignments.  And

 6     then other than this job, I also had the job of an interpreter which was

 7     quite intensive work.

 8        Q.   While you were at the Main Staff, who undertook those

 9     responsibilities with respect to the personnel in the administration of

10     check-points regarding convoys from -- either from UNPROFOR or

11     humanitarian aid sources?

12        A.   This was Colonel Djurdjic's main work and his main task.

13        Q.   And the reports that were generated in respect of the movement of

14     these convoys at the various check-points, those reports were sent up to

15     the Main Staff, weren't they?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   And those reports, when they were sent to the Main Staff, were

18     reviewed by officers of the Main Staff; correct?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did anybody review these reports that came from the check-points

21     to the Main Staff, either directly or indirectly?

22        A.   All the reports -- actually, I would like to ask you to clarify a

23     little bit.  I said that the report on the work and the passage at the

24     check-point from the unit where the check-point was, was part of the

25     combat report, it was a paragraph in it, and it would arrive to the duty

Page 18420

 1     officer.  Those combat reports were sent to the commander for his review.

 2     Colonel Djurdjic would read what was necessary from those reports, and if

 3     there was something of interest for him, good or bad, he would note that

 4     down.

 5        Q.   All right.  So Colonel Djurdjic would review these reports, yes?

 6        A.   The duty officer would review them and the duty operations

 7     officer.

 8        Q.   Djurdjic would read what was necessary from those reports; right?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   The reports were addressed to the commander - right? - as part of

11     a combat report?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   They would be reviewed by the commander, or at least they were

14     intended to be reviewed by the commander; right?

15        A.   The commander would usually review all the reports, all the

16     combat reports.

17        Q.   What about the deputy commander, General Milovanovic?

18        A.   General Milovanovic also reviewed the reports.  However, in

19     practice it turned out that they were at the command post very rarely at

20     the same time.

21        Q.   What about the assistant commanders?

22        A.   The assistant commanders dealt with issues from their line of

23     work from the reports.

24        Q.   What about General Tolimir?

25        A.   General Tolimir was assistant commander for intelligence and

Page 18421

 1     security affairs.  So he was dealing with issues that he was responsible

 2     for.

 3        Q.   He was a member of the joint commission that you testified about,

 4     wasn't he?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   You identified his initials and signature on documents relating

 7     to the disposition of convoys; isn't that true?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   He submitted proposals to the commander as to what to do with

10     these convoy requests from UNPROFOR in the documents you've identified;

11     right?

12        A.   He submitted proposals.  He would give proposals, if that was

13     what was asked of him, but he wasn't obliged to have an overview of all

14     the convoys.  Milos also could have submitted that to the commander.

15        Q.   Well, Milos did, didn't he?

16        A.   If there were any disputed issues, if he noticed any, before

17     giving it to the commander, he could consult with General Tolimir.  These

18     could be matters from the domain of the joint military commission, and

19     this is what he did regularly whenever he had the opportunity.

20        Q.   What I want to know from you, Mr. Kralj, is whether or not

21     General Tolimir in his capacity or in his -- given his involvement in

22     convoy issues reviewed reports containing the disposition of those

23     convoys that were sent to the Main Staff?  And I don't want you to guess.

24     If you know.

25        A.   I do know.  I am not guessing.

Page 18422

 1        Q.   What's your answer, then?

 2        A.   Djurdjic would review the report.  If he thought that something

 3     was not clear which had to be submitted for the commander's signature or

 4     placed in his documentation, if he had the opportunity he could consult

 5     General Tolimir, but he was not obliged nor was the procedure such that

 6     he had to take a document first for General Tolimir's review and then to

 7     the commander.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kralj, my question is pretty straight forward.  You said that

 9     there were documents concerning the convoys and the disposition of the

10     convoys that were sent to the Main Staff and they were contained in a

11     combat report.  These were reviewed by the commander or deputy commander;

12     correct?

13        A.   These were reports where the activities of the check-point were

14     noted and they were part of the combat report.

15        Q.   That's right.  What I want to know is if General Tolimir reviewed

16     those reports concerning those activities.

17        A.   He didn't have to do it, but he did it if he felt it was

18     necessary.

19        Q.   He, General Milovanovic, and General Mladic needed to know what

20     the disposition of those convoys were in order to frame how to address

21     requests and other issues concerning future convoys; right?

22        A.   All three of them, as part of their duties, did deal with

23     convoys.  General Mladic reviewed each item in detail and would ask for

24     Colonel Djurdjic's suggestions on numerous issues in order to be able to

25     make a proper decision.  If General Mladic was not there, the same thing

Page 18423

 1     could be done by General Milovanovic.

 2        Q.   And if General Milovanovic wasn't there, the same thing could be

 3     done by General Tolimir; right, Mr. Kralj?

 4        A.   Well, he couldn't unless the commander authorised him to do that.

 5        Q.   All right.  So if he were authorised, he could do it?

 6        A.   He could in terms of issuing instructions to Djurdjic.  Miletic

 7     substituted for General Milovanovic along the chain of command, so he was

 8     the one who could pass the document on down to the units.  I don't

 9     remember General Tolimir signing any kind of decision unless it was

10     something at the request of the commander or Colonel Djurdjic.

11        Q.   When you say "signing a decision," what do you mean by that?

12     Because you probably will recall that you identified a document where a

13     request was cut in half by 50 per cent and that was signed by

14     General Mladic and the suggestion came from - I believe it was -

15     Colonel Djurdjic.  And then there was another document you identified

16     where General Tolimir contradicted General Mladic's "no" with a "yes" and

17     indicated that the request was in conformity with a prior understanding.

18     Do you remember that, Mr. Kralj?

19        A.   I recall it very well with the following observation:  The "no"

20     in the upper right-hand corner was not written by Tolimir but it was

21     written by Mladic, and then when he consulted with Tolimir then he

22     approved it.  I didn't see General Tolimir's initials next to that "no"

23     in the -- that corner.  Tolimir even said that these were quantities that

24     were agreed per week and that this fitted in with that, and then in the

25     light of that General Mladic changed his opinion, allowed the convoy to

Page 18424

 1     pass, and crossed out that "no."

 2        Q.   That might have been a translation issue, but that's exactly what

 3     I was referring to.  And in that particular document, there is no

 4     indication whatsoever that General Tolimir consulted with General Mladic;

 5     right?  That's an inference that you drew.

 6        A.   At the top General Mladic was not mentioned but the document

 7     went -- actually, General Tolimir was not referred to.  The document was

 8     sent directly to General Mladic for his approval, but when the

 9     clarification was made that these were weekly agreed quantities, this

10     could have been done only by telephone or -- because General Tolimir took

11     part in these commissions, so General Tolimir exerted his influence on

12     General Mladic to change his opinion about that convoy so that convoy or

13     those convoys did proceed.

14        Q.   Well, let me just get right to the --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I see Mr. Gajic on his feet.

16             Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that it would

18     be good in situations like this to show the witness the document, or at

19     least to refer to the exhibit number so -- the exhibit number because

20     then later it will be very difficult for us to follow the transcript.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we all remember this document we have

22     seen yesterday on the screen, and it's up to the Prosecutor to decide if

23     he wants to show the document at this stage or perhaps later.

24             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I may do that.

Page 18425

 1        Q.   But let me just ask this question first, Mr. Kralj:  You were

 2     examined in the Popovic case, as you recall, on December 4th, 2008.  You

 3     were asked a question concerning an exhibit which related to an UNPROFOR

 4     document, and you were asked this question and you gave the following

 5     answer.  This is at page 29280 of the transcript.  And it begins at

 6     line 23 on that page.  And I'll read through the next page through

 7     line 6.  It says:

 8             "And General Nicolai apparently sent a request to

 9     General Tolimir, and it's seen between brackets that there is

10     General Mladic mentioned between brackets.  Did General Tolimir, about

11     these humanitarian issues and the UNPROFOR convoys, did he replace

12     General Mladic for these purposes?"

13             You gave this answer:

14             "General Tolimir was involved in the procedure to approve convoys

15     and to meet with UNPROFOR on the issue of convoys, and he would be

16     replaced by General Milovanovic.  In the absence of General Milovanovic,

17     General Tolimir could also issue approvals."

18             My question to you was, if I can find it on the screen, whether

19     General Tolimir could issue approvals?  You gave me a pretty long answer.

20     Is the answer to that question "yes "as you testified to a couple of

21     years ago?

22        A.   What just needed to be added is in the form of a proposal because

23     since he was a member of the joint central commission, which we haven't

24     mentioned here, he was the best versed person in the procedures that

25     should have been implemented by the Main Staff.

Page 18426

 1        Q.   All right.  I think I have my answer.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, for the sake of the record, you

 3     were referring to the testimony of Mr. Kralj in the Popovic case?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see this document on your list of --

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It is --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- probably-to-be-used documents in this case.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It is on the list of exhibits.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should put the number on the record so that

10     that can be clearer reference to it.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I will do

12     that.  It is 65 ter 7583.  I would have to add it to the list of exhibits

13     because it wasn't on the original 65 ter list.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you intend to use it further --

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- as a document.

17             Please carry on.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:

19        Q.   You said General Tolimir was the best versed person in respect of

20     the procedures to be implemented by the Main Staff; right?

21        A.   Yes, in relation or compared to other generals.

22        Q.   Okay.  He was informed about what was going on in terms of convoy

23     requests and the movement of convoys both humanitarian and military in

24     the form of UNPROFOR; right?

25        A.   He was informed more about the things that related to work of the

Page 18427

 1     joint commission.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You testified a little bit earlier that the Main Staff

 3     issued certain orders regarding the manner and intensity of convoy

 4     checks.  You remember that?

 5        A.   Meaning the manner and intensity of the passage of convoys?

 6        Q.   Well, I suppose how they would be checked, yes.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   They did that during the period of time that you were in the

 9     sector for civilian affairs?

10        A.   The convoys were passing much earlier.  Before I came, the

11     procedure for that was already established.

12        Q.   Yes.  My question is:  Was that occurring during the period of

13     time that you were in the Main Staff?

14        A.   For UNPROFOR convoys, yes.

15        Q.   What about for humanitarian convoys?  Did the Main Staff not

16     issue orders with respect to how to manage those convoys?

17        A.   At the time I was in the 1st Krajina Corps, I would implement

18     those orders or part of the orders.

19        Q.   As far as you're aware during the period of time that you were a

20     member of the Main Staff in the sector for civilian affairs, did the

21     Main Staff issue orders in relation to the manner and intensity of

22     checking convoys both UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid convoys?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   All right.  So you never saw an order issued by the Main Staff in

25     relation to checking convoys or how to check them concerning either one

Page 18428

 1     of those types of convoys or one or the other?

 2        A.   I had access to the documentation maintained by Djurdjic, and, as

 3     needed, I could look at everything that was in the archive that was of

 4     interest for my specific work.  I already said that I also did

 5     interpreting work, and, if needed, I would be also jumping in to stand in

 6     for Djurdjic.

 7        Q.   Is that a "yes," Mr. Kralj?

 8        A.   Well, we could say yes.  I could find in the documentation the

 9     things that I was interested in.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I see it's time for the break,

11     and I think now is as good as time as any.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  We must have our second break now, and

13     we will resume at 1.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, one personal observation.  The

19     witness is here to testify and to give as much information as he can.  I

20     observed that you -- some of your questions were put to him in a quite

21     aggressive tone.  I think there is, at the moment, no need for that.  You

22     should be -- you should consider that.  Please carry on.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Good afternoon to you, Mr. Kralj.

25        A.   Good afternoon.

Page 18429

 1        Q.   You received certain intelligence concerning what was going on

 2     with the convoys on the ground and that would have been in 1995; is that

 3     right?

 4        A.   Can you specify what intelligence?

 5        Q.   Information about the quantities or the quality of the cargo that

 6     was being transported, for example.

 7        A.   Do you have in mind permissible or impermissible cargo?  Any kind

 8     of regular reporting?  Could you please clarify.

 9        Q.   Did you receive intelligence information about impermissible

10     cargo?

11        A.   In the department we had some intelligence about how the

12     humanitarian aid transported by UNPROFOR convoys or UNHCR convoys was

13     being distributed in the enclave.  Is this the intelligence you had in

14     mind?

15        Q.   It is.  I just wanted to know what intelligence you had regarding

16     the convoy, so this is part of it.  Did you have other intelligence as

17     well?

18        A.   We were not acquainted with other intelligence, save for pieces

19     of information pertaining directly to the convoys so that such activities

20     would be monitored and prevented.

21        Q.   Okay.  And you got this information, that is the intelligence

22     concerning these convoys, the improper use of convoys, as it were, from

23     Colonel Djurdjic within your unit; right?

24        A.   He would always briefly tell me what was going on.

25        Q.   And Colonel Djurdjic received this intelligence information from

Page 18430

 1     the intelligence service; is that right?

 2        A.   Colonel Djurdjic occasionally acted as the duty team leader, and

 3     as such was privy to everything that was going on when he was on duty.

 4     He received certain reports from units concerning intelligence work, and

 5     it was part of regular combat reporting.

 6        Q.   And these units that provided information as a result of regular

 7     combat reporting, were they part of the intelligence service of the VRS?

 8        A.   The intelligence service has an organisational structure of its

 9     own.  I'm not familiar with it save for the intelligence that pertained

10     directly to the convoys which found its way into combat reports.

11        Q.   Let me ask it this way, maybe.  At transcript page 18293 of these

12     proceedings, lines 9 through 18, you were asked this question and you

13     gave this answer.  And this is by General Tolimir:

14             "Thank you.  Were you aware of information about abuses of

15     humanitarian aid convoys in the Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde enclaves?

16     Did your office have this information?"

17             And your answer was:

18             "Our office received relevant information to the effect that

19     certain quantities of assistance were being delivered to the army of the

20     Muslims in Srebrenica.  They didn't specify concrete quantities.  And

21     Colonel Djurdjic, since I was busy with other tasks, always used the

22     opportunity to inform me about these cases.  I didn't receive information

23     as such.  I received information from Colonel Djurdjic, and he, in turn,

24     received the appropriate information from the intelligence service."

25             What I'd like to know is when you made the reference in this

Page 18431

 1     answer to the intelligence service, what you mean?

 2        A.   I had in mind such information as was contained in the combat

 3     reports; that is to say, information from the field that was included in

 4     the combat reports.  Colonel Djurdjic could have been informed orally at

 5     the meetings he attended by security organs.  It doesn't have to mean

 6     that he received separate written reports about the goings on with

 7     convoys.  He didn't receive such written reports.  He received comments

 8     or suggestions about the convoys and the humanitarian aid destined to go

 9     to the enclaves.  We do not have a paper trail of any reports.  It's not

10     that the intelligence service was duty-bound to submit any reports to our

11     department.

12        Q.   Okay.  The security organs that you mentioned - and I hope it's

13     translated correctly - but you did mention security organs in your

14     answer; is that correct?

15        A.   Security organs deal with the activities of the enemy in our

16     territory.  Intelligence organs deal with the activities of the enemy on

17     the other side, on their territory.  Information concerning activities in

18     our territory and the incursions of such forces into our territory could

19     be dealt with or clarified by them for the sake of Colonel Djurdjic, and

20     he also saw such information in combat reports regularly.  I earlier

21     mentioned and -- that one of the items in the combat reports was also

22     entitled:  "Situation in the Territory."

23        Q.   Just so that I am clear, and maybe it's just me, are you saying

24     that the information or some of the information that Colonel Djurdjic

25     received came from the security or intelligence organs?

Page 18432

 1        A.   Part of the information from the field was part of the combat

 2     reports.  And it was done by the people in the fields, not by any

 3     particular organ or department of the Main Staff.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now I am thoroughly confused.  When you said in the

 5     answer that I read back to you in your earlier testimony that

 6     Colonel Djurdjic, in turn, received appropriate information from the

 7     intelligence service, you're telling me that that has nothing to do with

 8     intelligence or security organs of the VRS?  Do I have that right?

 9        A.   It has nothing to do with any organs of the Main Staff.  In any

10     combat report, one received summary information sent from the unit which

11     has its own security and intelligence organs.  It was a regular way of

12     reporting by subordinate commands to the Main Staff of the VRS.  Combat

13     reports were daily documents sent from each and every subordinate unit.

14        Q.   Is there any particular reason why in response the

15     General Tolimir's question you said that Colonel Djurdjic received

16     information from intelligence -- from the intelligence service as opposed

17     to read it in a combat report or gained it from some other unknown

18     source?  Is there any particular reason why you chose the term

19     "intelligence service"?

20        A.   When it was necessary to provide clarifications based on the

21     information contained in a combat report, Colonel Djurdjic could turn to

22     the service to ask for additional information, and if the service deemed

23     it necessary, could provide it to him.  That is what I meant.  In combat

24     reports everything is put in summarised form as to the events which took

25     place, and if Colonel Djurdjic wanted to undertake specific measures, he

Page 18433

 1     probably needed additional information.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, in this answer you've referred to "the service,"

 3     what service are you referring to?

 4        A.   I've already said that the security service deals with internal

 5     enemy in our territory, and the intelligence service conducts

 6     intelligence work in enemy territory.  If there was an event in

 7     Srebrenica, for example, and such information was included in a combat

 8     report and if colonel was unclear and needed additional information, he

 9     could turn to the intelligence service and its head to see if he could

10     get additional information than the information contained in the report.

11     And it was up to them to decide whether to give it to him or not.  They

12     are a closed-type organisation, and they only provide information on the

13     need-to-know basis and within a limit scope.

14        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I think I am clear on that now.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not wish to

17     intervene before the witness concluded.  On page 57, the witness used the

18     term "intelligence service" once or twice, and I believe that there was a

19     confusion in the way it was recorded or interpreted.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's on the record, but you should be

21     more specific if you find a relevant sentence which was not properly

22     recorded.  You may check that.

23             Mr. Gajic.

24             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  For example,

25     page 57, line 8, in the transcript, instead of "service" only there

Page 18434

 1     should be "intelligence service."

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you referring to line 8?

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Mr. President.  At

 4     least in my LiveNote.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It says there:

 6             "... and if the service deemed it necessary, could provide it to

 7     him."

 8             Are you referring to this sentence?

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It's gone from my scene now, sorry.

10     I had in mind page 57, line 7:

11             [In English] "Colonel Djurdjic could turn to the...,"

12     [Interpretation] and then we should have "intelligence service," [In

13     English] "... to ask for additional information."

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I reads, I quote:

15             "Colonel Djurdjic could turn to the service to ask for additional

16     information, and if the service deemed it necessary, could provide it to

17     him."

18             Mr. Kralj, could you -- you will recall what you have said in

19     this answer.  Did you just refer to a service or a specific service by

20     providing this answer?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should read "intelligence

22     service," although the mistake may be entirely my own.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Vanderpuye.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 18435

 1        Q.   All right.  I think I have my answer and I understand what you

 2     said, Mr. Kralj.  Let me take you to 1995, particularly in respect of the

 3     processing of convoy requests.  You distinguished for us the processing

 4     of UNPROFOR convoy requests and humanitarian aid convoy requests

 5     following the establishment of the co-ordinating -- the state or

 6     government co-ordinating body for humanitarian aid.  And there is a

 7     difference, correct?

 8        A.   There is.

 9        Q.   Up until 14 March, 1995, UNPROFOR requests were dealt with by the

10     Main Staff of the VRS; correct?

11        A.   Not only until the 14th of March, but later on as well.

12        Q.   And they were dealt with in the process that you describe which

13     involved evaluating the nature and the content of the -- of the proposed

14     convoy materials; right?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   And I think we agree that that involved your unit as well as

17     other members of the Main Staff, including General Tolimir,

18     General Milovanovic, General Mladic, and General Miletic?

19        A.   Not all of them took part in the decision-making process.  Some

20     of them were included in the process from time to time, the overall

21     process, be it by providing proposals or by signing a document which had

22     already been decided on, or in the drafting of documents.  It wasn't

23     necessary for the whole team to meet and decide on a particular document

24     or convoy.

25        Q.   Okay.  Colonel Djurdjic, your boss, also participated in this

Page 18436

 1     process; right?

 2        A.   The colonel was the most competent person in the chain.  Not the

 3     chain, really, but he had the best expert knowledge of all in the

 4     Main Staff when it came to humanitarian aid and UNPROFOR convoys.  He

 5     also held the greatest responsibility.

 6        Q.   You participated in this process, too.  More than just shuffling

 7     papers, you actually made suggestions on how to deal with particular

 8     convoys, didn't you?

 9        A.   Only if I was involved in preparing a document when

10     Colonel Djurdjic was not present.  In such cases, I followed the

11     procedure he otherwise would have.

12        Q.   Okay.  So on occasion you did make suggestions to the commander

13     or whoever was around to approve convoys in the absence of

14     Colonel Djurdjic?

15        A.   I would put the documents in the pipeline.  It wasn't necessary

16     to make suggestions if everything was clear.  If there was no problem

17     with a particular document, and if there was enough time, I would include

18     it in the commander's mail.  He would read it and return the document

19     with his own suggestions, approvals, or requests for additional

20     information.

21        Q.   Colonel Djurdjic could, and in fact did, make suggestions to the

22     commander on how to deal with specific convoy requests.  That's right,

23     isn't it?

24        A.   Colonel Djurdjic had an accurate register and was in a position

25     to give specific information to the commander or obtain such information

Page 18437

 1     in the form of a proposal requested from him.  Djurdjic didn't decide

 2     what would pass and what wouldn't.  He only provided information,

 3     information requested by the commander, be it on previously transported

 4     quantities or something else.  The most common problem encountered was

 5     the purpose of the equipment listed, so he had look for or ask for

 6     additional information from the one who has submitted the request.

 7     Mostly, it would be the UNPROFOR command.  And they were known to

 8     transport quite a quantity of goods they didn't need themselves.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could have 65 ter 5106, please, in e-court.

10        Q.   Mr. Kralj, you can see here that this is a document from the

11     Main Staff dated 25 February 1995, and it concerns the disposition of a

12     convoy request.  Do you see that there, sir?

13        A.   I do.

14        Q.   What I'd like to do is to take you to page 12 in the B/C/S and --

15     just a moment.  I'll see if I can find it in the English.  I understand

16     it's page 17 in the English.

17             Can you tell us what's written there in the handwriting?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just blow up that portion.

19        Q.   Can you read that out, Mr. Kralj?

20        A.   It says:

21             "Kralj, why not?"

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And if we could just zoom out in the B/C/S for a

23     moment.

24        Q.   And we can see here the word "ne" in a circle with a question

25     mark and then crossed out.  And I am sure you don't have a specific

Page 18438

 1     recollection of this document because it's been a while, but next to the

 2     circle with a crossed out "ne" appears to be "da" written in Cyrillic; is

 3     that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And who would have written that, if you can recall?

 6        A.   I cannot recall because there are no initials here, neither next

 7     to the "yes" nor next to the "no," whoever wrote these words.

 8        Q.   Why would it have been addressed to you in this particular way as

 9     concerns that element of the convoy request?

10        A.   Because probably this document was submitted earlier since

11     somebody wrote "no," but there was no problem.  And then there was a

12     question to me, "why not?"  What's the problem?  The document came back

13     by mail to clarify that issue, and maybe you have a -- the related

14     document which will show what happened because these were military

15     observers who took regular shifts.  There was no problem, no reason not

16     to approve that.  And when the commander reviewed it, he placed these

17     checkmarks.  But then the question is if he really did review it, because

18     he would have initialed it.

19             This is an unusual situation.  The date is 24 February.  The

20     document was obviously returned, and the question was put to me, "Why

21     not?"  Why not let this convoy go?  I don't remember it.  This was long

22     ago.  I believe that this rotation was -- that this notation took place,

23     because, you know, the military observers come and stay for a time and

24     then are replaced by others.

25        Q.   All right.  I just want to know why this would be directed to

Page 18439

 1     you.  Would you have been the person who wrote "no"?  Is that why it

 2     would have been directed to you?

 3        A.   No.  The reason was my presence in the office so I could check

 4     why not, so I could see what the problem was, but the document is all

 5     right.  There is no reason not to let them rotate.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask the witness:  Have you any idea who

 8     wrote these words "Kralj, why not?"  Whose handwriting is this?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very difficult for me to

10     decipher because I had only just arrived and I was not yet familiar with

11     the structures or people's handwriting.  Maybe somebody authorised by

12     General Mladic to sign a document, if necessary.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You just said, "I had only just arrived," but

14     this is now 16 years ago.  And after that point in time you gained some

15     experience.  You don't recognise this handwriting?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, not really.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could show the next page, please.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.

21             Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  We cannot hear the accused.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please move the microphone towards yourself.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

Page 18440

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  It is no better.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Something is wrong with your microphone.  The

 3     interpreters can't hear you at the moment.  Perhaps you can use the other

 4     one.

 5             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] Thank

 6     you, Mr. President.

 7             The witness asked to see the first page containing a list of all

 8     documents in this batch to check whether this document was dispatched or

 9     not, so I kindly ask that it be shown to him so although it may turn out

10     that this discussion is actually pointless.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye may take that into consideration.

12     Please carry on.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What I would like to do is show the witness the

14     next page in this document.  I understand it's 19 in the English.

15        Q.   And ask the witness, Mr. Kralj, do you recognise the signature or

16     initials following the word "da" that's in the circle in the middle of

17     this page?

18        A.   This is General Mladic.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What I'd like to do is show the witness the page

20     preceding the one I showed him a moment ago with the handwriting on it.

21     It would be ERN ending 7782.  Page 16 in the English.  And if we could

22     zoom in, again, on the initials following the word "da" in this document.

23        Q.   Can you tell us whose initials those are, Mr. Kralj?

24        A.   This is Mladic.

25        Q.   Does that help you in respect of the handwritten note mentioning

Page 18441

 1     your name on the page in between these two pages?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That is, ERN page ending 7783.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we see that again, please?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand what exactly you

 5     mean.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   Well, that's all right.  If you don't recognise the handwriting

 8     we'll leave it there.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I think it's time for the break

10     in any event.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, you are right.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We do have one matter to discuss.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, I --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  First I would like to thank Mr. Kralj that

16     he provided us with his knowledge today.  We have to continue tomorrow

17     with the cross-examination by the Prosecutor.

18             The witness may leave the courtroom.

19             Thank you very much, and tomorrow morning in this courtroom we

20     will continue.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, you had addressed a matter

24     concerning access to certain materials that was filed by the Defence in

25     the Perisic case.  I've discussed that with Mr. McCloskey.  We have no

Page 18442

 1     problem or objection to the -- for access to be granted provided that the

 2     normal protections and considerations are kept in place.

 3             The exhibit in question, I think, is P2808, and I understand that

 4     access to parts of the transcript was also requested, and so we accede to

 5     that as well.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.  And the Chamber

 7     will file a decision in due course, as soon as possible.  We are at the

 8     end of today's hearing.  We resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this

 9     courtroom.  We adjourn.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day

12                           of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.