Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 411

1 Thursday, 13 September 2001

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [Open session]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus Mitar Vasiljevic.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.


11 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]


14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Spahic, we left off yesterday with one of my

15 questions which I'm going to repeat now, and that is the following: Do

16 you remember the time that the convoy left Visegrad, the convoy that you

17 yourself were in?

18 A. I think that it was sometime between 10.30 and 11.00. I couldn't

19 be specific as to the time, but it was around half past 10.00 or 11.00.

20 Q. Did the whole convoy start at that time? Were you able to

21 notice? Did all the vehicles making up the convoy start at the same time?

22 A. Yes, I assume they did. I didn't actually pay attention but I

23 think they did, yes.

24 Q. You said yesterday that the convoy started its journey across the

25 new bridge on the Drina River; is that right?

Page 412

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said you were surprised because you took that route across

3 that particular bridge. I'm sure you know that the old bridge or the

4 Turkish bridge is not -- does not cater to heavy traffic for trucks and

5 buses.

6 A. Well, yes, I wasn't surprised that we were going across the new

7 bridge, but I was surprised because we said we wanted to be taken to

8 Skopje and that would mean going through town. And, in fact, we did go

9 through town but then we took a turn towards the new bridge, which was

10 unusual.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, Mr. Domazet.

12 Sir, because you and Mr. Domazet, the counsel there, are talking

13 the same language, you present a problem with the interpretation. After

14 he's asked his question, would you just pause a moment to enable the

15 interpreters to catch up? Because we are getting it in English and French

16 as well, you see, so just pause just like Mr. Domazet pauses before the

17 question.

18 I'm sorry, Mr. Domazet. You proceed.

19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 Q. I understand why you were surprised. So you were surprised

21 because of the direction you took across the new bridge and not because

22 you didn't go across the old bridge, which you knew you couldn't. You

23 said that in your particular bus, the bus you were in, that there were two

24 guards and that you knew one of them and that he was a waiter from

25 Visegrad whom you knew. Could you describe him to us, please?

Page 413

1 A. He was a young man, had a dark complexion. He was good-looking

2 and pleasant. I knew him very well, but I can't recall his name and

3 surname.

4 Q. Very soon after the tragic events that came to pass - that is to

5 say, several months later - you made a statement to the MUP, and you said

6 that the waiter's name was Brane Ivanovic. You named the waiter. Do you

7 remember his name now?

8 A. No. That's another waiter. It's a different waiter, a waiter

9 that I came into contact with at Sokolac. It wasn't the same one. And I

10 know that second waiter. I knew his name. And it's quite a different

11 waiter altogether.

12 Q. Recounting what you personally experienced and all the events that

13 took place, you gave a number of statements to MUP and a statement to the

14 investigator of the OTP; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In none of those statements do you make mention of the name Mitar

17 Vasiljevic, who is on trial here today; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

20 further questions for this witness.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Ossogo?

22 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

25 Thank you, sir. That is the end of your task here. We are very

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Page 415

1 grateful to you for having come to give evidence and for the evidence

2 which you've given. You're now free to leave.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Korner, welcome back to the case.

6 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. I'm afraid it's only a guest

7 appearance.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

9 JUDGE HUNT: You must turn your microphone on. You're taking

10 VG14, are you?

11 MS. KORNER: I am. He's been given protective measures, as I

12 understand it. Can I hand the sheet to Your Honour?

13 JUDGE HUNT: You have got the pseudonym sheet?

14 MS. KORNER: I have, which is going to be handed to Your Honour

15 now.

16 Your Honour, in the absence of the witness, may I explain that

17 I've spoken to Mr. Domazet, and I understand that there is no dispute

18 about the events until one comes to the river and, therefore, he's agreed

19 I may lead the witness on the earlier part.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank heaven's that we are going to have some leading

21 because there is very little in dispute about the earlier matters here.

22 This pseudonym sheet for the witness VG14 will be Exhibit 73, and

23 it is under seal: Could we have the witness, please?

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

Page 416

1 the document which the usher is showing you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE HUNT: Please sit down, sir.

7 Examined by Ms. Korner:

8 Q. Sir, I wonder if you could have a look please at a sheet which has

9 been marked Exhibit number 73?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Is it in front of the witness?

11 MS. KORNER: Doesn't appear to be.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Something slipped up. Thank you.


14 Q. Sir, do you see your name there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Throughout these proceedings, however, you will be referred to as

17 Witness VG14. You will see on the sheet another name. If you wish to

18 refer to him, he should be referred to as VG32. Do you understand that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Sir, I want to ask you first of all a little bit about

21 your background. [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 Q. I think it's right that after you left school, you did your JNA

Page 417

1 compulsory training between 1987 and 1988.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And just to jump forward for a moment, I think after the events

4 that you're going to tell us about, you in fact joined the army of Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina in June of 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I want to ask you briefly about the events after the

8 multi-party system elections in 1990. Did you first notice that there

9 were ethnic tensions in Visegrad after those elections?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did those tensions eventually lead to the beginning of what

12 you call the war?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In around March or April of 1992, did the Uzice Corps enter

15 Visegrad?

16 A. Yes. That was at the beginning of April.

17 Q. And as a result of that, did you leave the area of Visegrad in

18 which you lived?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But, eventually, did you return because you were told that you

21 would be safe to return to Visegrad?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At that stage, were you married?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you have children?

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Page 419

1 A. Yes, a three and a half year old daughter.

2 Q. When you returned to the area of Visegrad in which you lived, did

3 you notice that there had been damage done to property there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What kind of damage did you notice?

6 A. Houses were burnt down. There was looting of houses and property.

7 Q. Were you also stopped on your return at a number of checkpoints?

8 A. Yes. There were several checkpoints.

9 Q. And who were those checkpoints manned by?

10 A. The checkpoints belonged to the former JNA, and they were manned

11 by the local Serbs.

12 Q. The uniform that the soldiers were wearing, was it regular JNA

13 uniform or did it have other markings?

14 A. Well, there were the olive-grey green uniforms and the camouflage

15 uniforms and, generally speaking, the JNA uniforms.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Korner, I wonder if we could just clear one point

17 up. He talked about the war or the Uzice Corps entering at the beginning

18 of April, and then you asked a question did you -- eventually did you

19 return because were you told that it would be safe to return. Was that

20 whilst the Uzice Corps was still there or after they left? It may or may

21 not be important, but it's not clear.


23 Q. When did you return to the area of Visegrad?

24 A. It was some ten days after the entrance of the Uzice Corps in

25 Visegrad. So the Uzice Corps was actually in Visegrad when I came back to

Page 420

1 Visegrad myself.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. So roughly what date are we talking about for the return?

5 A. I can't say exactly, but I think it was towards the end of April.

6 Q. All right. Now, after your return, were you able to continue

7 working?

8 A. When I came back to Visegrad, I continued working in my firm. But

9 it wasn't safe, because people were already being taken away from the

10 firm, so that one month later I had to leave the company I worked for.

11 Q. So can we take it this was sometime in May?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, other than the Uzice Corps, were there other military

14 formations in the town?

15 A. Yes. There were the White Eagles, as they were called.

16 Q. Who exactly were the White Eagles?

17 A. They are -- the White Eagles included local Serbs. So it wasn't

18 just the White Eagles themselves imported, as we used to say, but the

19 local Serbs formed part of the White Eagles as well.

20 Q. How were you able to differentiate between the regular Uzice Corps

21 and the White Eagles?

22 A. The members of the regular Uzice Corps had the insignia of the

23 former JNA, whereas the White Eagles had different insignia with a

24 double-headed eagle on them.

25 Q. What kind of activities were the White Eagles carrying out?

Page 421

1 A. As far as I was able to notice, they did what they wanted to.

2 They weren't under anybody's control.

3 Q. When you say they did what they wanted to, can you just give

4 us one or two examples of what they were doing?

5 A. Yes, I can. One of their checkpoints was situated in front of the

6 new hotel in Visegrad, so they controlled all the traffic in front of the

7 hotel. The second example is that they stormed houses and apartments at

8 any time during the day and night and they would take away the people that

9 they had on their lists from those places.

10 Q. And how did you find out about the people who were on the lists?

11 Or I'm sorry, I'll rephrase the question. How did you find out that they

12 had lists?

13 A. A good example is this: Going to work and coming back from work,

14 I saw that they had these lists at the checkpoints, and they would look at

15 the lists, check the list when they looked at my ID cards. They would

16 look at me, look down the list and then say, "Well, he's not on the list.

17 He can be allowed to pass."

18 Q. And I should have asked you this before, and it is my error. What

19 was your -- what is your ethnicity?

20 A. I'm a Bosniak.

21 Q. Did the Uzice Corps leave Visegrad at the end of May?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But did the White Eagles remain in the town?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were there any regular JNA army corps left in the town after the

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Page 423

1 Uzice left?

2 A. Well, I couldn't actually see that or recognise that, but I know

3 that the White Eagles were left and they were joined by the local Serbs.

4 Q. Now, after you'd stopped working, did you in fact go into hiding

5 near your flat?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But, eventually, did you get tired of hiding and did you go back

8 to live in your apartment?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I want to ask you now about the day that you were arrested. Can

11 you remember what day that was?

12 A. Yes. I think it was a Saturday, the 7th of June, 1992.

13 Q. That afternoon, were you in your flat?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was your wife and your child -- were your wife and your child

16 there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And were there also some friends of yours there?

19 A. Yes. They had been expelled from the village of Kurtalici.

20 Q. Who came to your flat?

21 A. That afternoon, Milan Lukic and another man came to the flat.

22 Q. Milan Lukic, had you known him before?

23 A. Yes, from our school days.

24 Q. For how long had you known him therefore by June of 1992?

25 A. Well, seven years about.

Page 424

1 Q. When he came to your flat, you said he was with someone else. Do

2 you know who that man was? Had you seen him before?

3 A. No. That was the first time I saw him.

4 Q. Did you ever hear a name?

5 A. All I heard was that he called him Montenegro.

6 Q. That was Lukic calling him Montenegro?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was Lukic wearing when he came to your flat that day?

9 A. He was wearing a blue beret with the double-headed eagle insignia,

10 a camouflage uniform, and white trainers.

11 Q. Did he have any insignia on that uniform?

12 A. Yes. On the left-hand side, on the pocket, he had the

13 double-headed eagle emblem, and on his hand, he had a plaster,

14 elastoplast.

15 Q. Did you know what Lukic was doing in June of 1992, what his job,

16 if any, was?

17 A. He came from Obrenovac. I think he worked there as a policeman.

18 Q. You told us he had a plaster on his hand. Did you notice anything

19 else about him, about his face, for example?

20 A. He was sooty, and on one half of his face, I can't remember what

21 exactly, but I think he had a mole of some kind.

22 Q. By sooty, do you mean that it looked as though he had gone through

23 dust, or did it look as though it was deliberate?

24 A. I think it was deliberate, to mask himself, camouflage himself.

25 Q. Now, when he got to your flat, how did he come in? In other

Page 425

1 words, did he knock on the door, or what did he do?

2 A. Yes, when he came to my flat, he knocked on the door, and I asked

3 my neighbour, a woman, to tell him that there was nobody at home, nobody

4 in the flat. However, when she saw what he looked like, I suppose she was

5 afraid, and couldn't answer anything. After that, he forced his way into

6 the flat.

7 Q. What did he tell you when he came into the flat?

8 A. He asked me what my name was, and I told him.

9 Q. Were you surprised by that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you told him your name, and then what happened?

12 A. He came into the flat and started ransacking it, searching it. He

13 found my uniform belonging to the reserve force of the JNA. He told me to

14 take the uniform and to follow him.

15 Q. Did he give you any explanation why you had to go with him?

16 A. No.

17 Q. At that stage, what did you expect was going to happen?

18 A. I thought that he might detain me somewhere or exchange me for one

19 of his own people.

20 Q. What led you to believe that? In other words, from what

21 experiences did you think that that might happen?

22 A. The confidence and trust in the former JNA -- I always had

23 confidence and trust in the JNA, and I couldn't imagine a day when that

24 wouldn't be so and when the people would have been affected by it.

25 Q. You said you had trust in the JNA, but what was the situation like

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Page 427

1 in June when Milan Lukic came to your house?

2 A. Well, let me tell you. At that time, the JNA was no longer there,

3 and I probably no longer had their trust -- that trust. I don't know when

4 I lost it, actually. I don't know how to explain this to you. There was

5 an army that guaranteed your security, and now all of a sudden some people

6 came and took away whoever they wanted.

7 Q. This type of incident, had that happened to people that you knew?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So he told you to follow -- to go with him. What happened to your

10 wife and child?

11 A. My wife and child remained at the door, at the entrance to the

12 apartment.

13 Q. Were you able to say goodbye to them?

14 A. I was not allowed to do that by Lukic. However, of my own free

15 will, I went back to kiss my daughter and to kiss my wife because I felt

16 that this might be my last day with them.

17 Q. Now, you told us that you had seen people who had been evicted

18 from the village of Kurtalici. What happened to them?

19 A. Those people were there. One of them was also taken with me on

20 that day.

21 Q. And who was that?

22 A. That was Amir Kurtalic.

23 Q. So when you left your apartment, there were four of you: Milan

24 Lukic, yourself, Amir, and this man Montenegro; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 428

1 Q. Where did you go once you had left the apartment?

2 A. We got into a car, a Passat, that Milan Lukic had taken from

3 Behija Zukic, and we went to another place in Bikavac.

4 Q. Now, you told us that the car was taken from someone. How did you

5 know that?

6 A. Yes. People talked about that, and they said that Milan Lukic on

7 one night got into Behija Zukic's apartment, killed her, and took her

8 car.

9 Q. Did you know the lady who was killed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you recognise the car?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what colour was the car?

14 A. The colour? It was dark red. It was maroon, really.

15 Q. Now, before you and Amir got into the car, did Lukic do or say

16 anything?

17 A. Yes. He prayed the way Muslims pray to God. He said

18 "Bismillah".

19 Q. Did he explain why he was doing that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right. So you got into the car and where did you go to?

22 A. We went back towards Visegrad but not far away from my apartment.

23 We entered the neighbouring street where there were other arrested

24 Muslims.

25 Q. Where did you see the other arrested Muslims?

Page 429

1 A. As we got into the street, one of his soldiers was guarding them

2 in a house, and he took them out of that house. There were four other men

3 there too.

4 Q. Now, I think this is right: Is one of the men -- one of the men

5 was the one who you will be referring to as VG32; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us the names of the other men, please, though?

8 A. Yes, Meho Dzafic, Ekrem Dzafic, Hasan Mutapcic, Hasan Kustura.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I thought you had been invited to lead all the way up

10 to the river.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I thought that might be

12 important.

13 JUDGE HUNT: It may or may not. We have got most of them already.

14 But if there is no dispute until we get to the river, let's get there, if

15 we could.


17 Q. Once -- what happened to the men who were -- who came out of the

18 house? Were they put into your car or into another car as well?

19 A. Well, let me tell you. Another car was there, a Yugo, a grey

20 Yugo. And one of these men was transferred to our car; and that was Hasan

21 Mutapcic.

22 Q. Then were you taken to a place called Visegradska Banja?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honour I don't know whether it would assist

25 if at this stage the witness identifies these places on a map. I don't

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Page 431

1 know whether Your Honours have had a chance to --

2 JUDGE HUNT: We've had a very large map shown us. It blocked the

3 view of the interpreters for sometime. Unless you really think it's

4 important, we have had the map, not marked; we have had them noted on the

5 map.

6 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, I won't trouble you with

7 it. Thank you.

8 Q. Were you taken there to a hotel?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the hotel -- I'm sorry, just one thing. Before you got to the

11 hotel, were you stopped at a checkpoint?

12 A. Yes. This was the checkpoint at Sase where Lukic said to these

13 men at the checkpoint that he had caught some balijas.

14 Q. And did Lukic also ask you whether you had any money?

15 A. Oh, yes. That was as we were leaving my apartment and going

16 towards Visegrad. I answered him that I had about two billion, and he

17 said, "You mean German marks?" And I said, "No, old Bosnian money."

18 Q. Now, once at the hotel, were you taken into the reception area?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At that stage, did Lukic start to look for the keys to an office?

21 A. Yes. He was asking for the keys of the manager's office.

22 Q. Whilst he was doing that, did you see other people there?

23 A. Yes. Mitar Vasiljevic was there. He was standing in the

24 immediate vicinity, and Momir Savic was at the entrance into the Vilina

25 Vlas hotel.

Page 432

1 Q. Mitar Vasiljevic, for how long had you known him in June of 1992?

2 A. Well, for about ten years.

3 Q. In what capacity had you known him? In other words, as a friend

4 or a colleague or what?

5 A. Well, let me tell you. Mitar Vasiljevic worked as a waiter in

6 Panos where I stayed quite often, so I could knew him -- could know him

7 quite well.

8 Q. Would you be able to recognise him again today?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I would like you to look around the court, please, then, and see

11 if you can identify him.

12 A. Yes. It's the gentleman there.

13 Q. Yes. Could you just -- I'm afraid for the purposes of the record,

14 we need a slightly more clear identification. Which gentleman are you

15 describing? You've pointed at somebody.

16 A. That dark-haired man there in the last row with head set on his

17 head.

18 JUDGE HUNT: There is no doubt that that must be the accused

19 person.

20 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

21 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him in the hotel?

22 A. He was wearing a black hat, an olive-green/grey uniform with a

23 band on his shoulder.

24 Q. Was there any kind of insignia? The band you describe, what do

25 you mean by that?

Page 433

1 A. Well, it was a red band and on the hat, he also had an emblem;

2 the two-headed eagle.

3 Q. Did he have anything with him?

4 A. Yes. He had an automatic rifle.

5 Q. How do you know that it was an automatic rifle?

6 A. Well, let me tell you. I did my military service, and one year

7 must have been sufficient for me to get to know the weapons that I also

8 carried then in the former JNA.

9 Q. When Milan Lukic came to your apartment, did he have a weapon with

10 him?

11 A. Yes. He had a sniper with a silencer.

12 Q. And by sniper, you mean rifle, do you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The other man there that you'd mentioned, Momir Savic, did he have

15 any weapon with him?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what did he have?

18 A. Also an automatic rifle.

19 Q. Now, apart from Savic and Vasiljevic, did you see anybody else

20 there?

21 A. Yes. The former watch-keeper of that hotel was there too. His

22 last name was Susnjar, but I can't remember his first name.

23 Q. Was he in civilian clothes or in uniform?

24 A. He also had an olive-green/grey uniform.

25 Q. And did he have a weapon?

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Page 435

1 A. Yes, a semi-automatic rifle.

2 Q. Now, you've told us that Lukic was looking for keys. Did he find

3 the keys?

4 A. Yes, he found some keys. And he tried to open the manager's

5 office with those keys, but he didn't manage to do so.

6 Q. And so eventually, were you ordered back into the cars?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you in the same car, the Passat, the Volkswagen, that you had

9 come to the hotel in?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What happened to the three new men that you've described;

12 Vasiljevic, first of all?

13 A. Well, Vasiljevic then joined Milan Lukic, and he got into the same

14 car where I was; that is to say, the Passat.

15 Q. What about the other two people? Momir Savic, did he come with

16 you?

17 A. No, he stayed at the hotel.

18 Q. And Susnjar?

19 A. He did too.

20 Q. So there is Lukic and Vasiljevic and you and Amir in the first

21 car, in the Volkswagen?

22 A. Yes, and Hasan Mutapcic.

23 Q. In the other car that you've talked about, the Yugo, how many

24 people apart from the arrested people that you've named were in that car?

25 A. There were six people; that is to say, four people who were

Page 436

1 arrested and two soldiers.

2 Q. And then where were you taken to?

3 A. They took us in the direction of Sase.

4 Q. Did you get to Sase?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And where did the cars stop?

7 A. The cars stopped in front of a house. Mitar Vasiljevic, as he was

8 talking to Lukic, said that this was a Muslim house.

9 Q. When the cars stopped, what happened?

10 A. They ordered us to get out of the car and told us not to try to

11 escape.

12 Q. Can you remember now who gave the orders? You've told us that

13 Lukic and Vasiljevic were in the car with you.

14 A. Yes. This order was issued by Lukic.

15 Q. So did you get out of the car?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did Amir get out?

18 A. Yes. We all got out.

19 Q. Once you were outside the car, what was said to you?

20 A. We were told to start walking towards the Drina.

21 Q. And who told you to do that?

22 A. Lukic.

23 Q. Roughly how far was the Drina from where the car had stopped?

24 A. I think about a hundred metres away.

25 Q. You told us you were ordered to walk towards the Drina. How did

Page 437

1 you walk?

2 A. We walked in a column, one after the other.

3 Q. Whilst you were doing that, where were Lukic and Vasiljevic?

4 A. I think that I said quite precisely in my statement that they were

5 on the left-hand side.

6 Q. What about the other two men who were -- the other two soldiers

7 who were with the other car? Where were they?

8 A. They were on the other side, so we didn't have a chance to run

9 either one way or the other.

10 Q. As you walked down to the river, what did you think was going to

11 happen to you?

12 A. Well, let me tell you. That is the right moment to feel that

13 there would be a tragedy.

14 Q. Did you -- when you say, "That was the right moment to feel there

15 was a tragedy," can you just elaborate, please, a little? What did you

16 think was going to happen?

17 A. Well, yes, I couldn't think of anything else but that these were

18 the last moments of my life and that there were only a few metres to the

19 river, and that is what divided me from my death.

20 Q. Feeling that, did you or any of the others, attempt to run away?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And why not?

23 A. Well, we wouldn't stand a chance of doing that.

24 Q. What happened when you got to the river?

25 A. When we got to the river, we were lined up facing the water. The

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Page 439

1 soldiers were about five or six metres behind us.

2 Q. At that stage, what was the level of the river?

3 A. Well, let me tell you. As for the level of the river, it was

4 going down because the lake had changed its level, so you could also see

5 part of the bank itself.

6 Q. So you were told to line up facing the river. Did anybody say

7 anything to any of the four men who you told us had weapons?

8 A. Yes. Meho Dzafic, Mitar Vasiljevic's colleague, who worked in the

9 same company as Mitar did, he begged him not to kill him, because they

10 were colleagues.

11 Q. Did Vasiljevic make any response?

12 A. Yes. He said that he didn't know him.

13 Q. When you lined up on the bank of the river, were you facing the

14 river, or facing the men who were armed?

15 A. I've already said that I was facing the river.

16 Q. And then what happened?

17 A. A question followed: "How should we shoot, individual gunshots or

18 bursts of gunfire?"

19 Q. Do you remember who asked that question?

20 A. I think it was Lukic.

21 Q. He asked how they should shoot?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did anybody give a reply?

24 A. Somebody replied that they should fire individually.

25 Q. And then what happened?

Page 440

1 A. A click was heard of the weapons when they were being adjusted

2 from bursts of gunfire to individual shots, and then shots followed.

3 Q. Before the shots, did you hear anybody give an order to fire?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How many shots did you hear?

6 A. Four shots. There were three stronger ones and one was a blunt

7 one, that is to say a sniper rifle with a silencer and that sound is

8 muffled.

9 Q. You've told us that Vasiljevic had an automatic weapon. The other

10 two men with weapons, what kind were they?

11 A. They all had automatic weapons except for Milan Lukic.

12 Q. And I'm sorry if I've asked you this already. Yes, I have, for

13 give me. I've asked you how many shots. What did you do as the shots

14 went off?

15 A. Well, let me tell you. Until the present day now, when I'm here,

16 I cannot think of how I managed to do this. It's as if God himself had

17 saved me, as if someone had pushed me into that river, and it so happened

18 that I survived.

19 Q. So, pushed you into the river? Did you fall into the river?

20 A. Yes. I didn't mean that anybody had pushed me. I said as if

21 there were a power that had pushed me. I fell into the water pretending

22 to be dead.

23 Q. What about the other men with you? Did you notice any of them?

24 A. Well, I heard them fall into the water. I couldn't tell who it

25 was at that stage. However, I did hear other falls into the water.

Page 441

1 Q. Did you see any of the other men while you were in the water?

2 A. Yes. When all of this was over, a person who also survived, that

3 is person number 32, I noticed that this person was alive as well.

4 Q. All right. Before you noticed that, however, you'd heard the

5 shots, you fell in the water. What was the next thing that happened?

6 A. The next thing that happened? I heard the screams of one of these

7 men. He was probably wounded. Another gunshot followed and then the

8 screams stopped. That meant that that man had been killed too.

9 Q. The men who had fired the shots, did any of them come closer to

10 the water?

11 A. Yes. When all of this was over, somebody walked up to the water

12 and said, "One of them is alive."

13 Q. Are you able to say who that was?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So he said one of them was alive. And what happened then?

16 A. Three gunshots followed. Two were aimed at my head and they

17 missed, and the third one went further, and that was that.

18 Q. Then what happened to the men with guns?

19 A. Sometime after that, we heard the cars being ignited and that

20 meant that they were leaving.

21 Q. What did you do after that?

22 A. Then I lifted my head, looked around and returned to the same

23 position that I had been in.

24 Q. Which was where?

25 A. Could you please repeat this question?

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Page 443

1 Q. Yes. You said you returned to the same position that you had been

2 in. Do you mean that you remained in the water or that you got out?

3 A. Well, let me tell you. I stayed in the water for another minute

4 or two perhaps because I still could not believe that these soldiers had

5 left. I was afraid that they might return and shoot at us again.

6 Q. But eventually did you get out?

7 A. Yes. I looked around once again. Person number 32 also lifted

8 his head, and we acknowledged each other. We exchanged questions. We

9 asked each other whether we had been wounded, and then we said that we

10 were going.

11 Q. Did you see the other men with you, who had been shot at?

12 A. Right in front of us, Hasan Mutapcic was lying down, who had been

13 hit in the head, and the -- there was an exit wound on the lower

14 right-hand side of his jaw. His teeth had been blown out when the bullet

15 shot through.

16 Q. And what about the other men?

17 A. The other men were lying in the water as well. There were five

18 dead bodies there all in all.

19 Q. Now, I want to jump ahead for a moment. In June of this year, the

20 26th of June, did you go back to the area with investigators from the

21 Tribunal?

22 JUDGE HUNT: You mean investigators from the Office of the

23 Prosecutor.

24 MS. KORNER: I'm so sorry.

25 Q. Investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor?

Page 444

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you accompanied by, as we will see, members of the SFOR

3 troops?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And were you asked to retrace your steps that day on the 7th of

6 June?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was a video made of that trip?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I think you've had an opportunity to look at that video.

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that the video be

13 played. It's very short. It's about four minutes, thereabouts.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. You've made arrangements with the

15 audiovisual people?

16 MS. KORNER: Yes, we have and I'm going to ask the witness just to

17 identify what we are looking at as we look at it.

18 Q. First of all, sir, what are we looking at here? Actually, think I

19 just a moment.

20 [Videotape played]

21 A. It's not a very good picture. Yes. That's the house we were

22 stopped in front of, with the car.

23 Q. Are we now looking towards the river Drina?

24 A. Yes, that's the road towards the Drina, and they stopped us in

25 front of this house, that same house. This is the bank and the path

Page 445

1 towards the Drina. At that particular moment, potatoes had been sown in

2 this field.

3 Q. We are now, I think, looking back towards the house from the

4 field.

5 A. This is the place the crime took place at.

6 Q. Did it look like that in June of 1992?

7 A. Yes, more or less, but there was less water. The water level was

8 lower.

9 Q. Are we now looking back towards the --

10 A. Yes, that's the way. It's a small path and we moved along that

11 path.

12 Q. Now --

13 A. This is the entrance to the hotel named Vilina Vlas.

14 Q. Did the hotel look like that in June of 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where was Vasiljevic standing when you first saw him that day?

17 A. On the left-hand side from the reception desk. To the left,

18 looking at it, to the left of the soldiers.

19 Q. Right. Yes. Thank you. I think that's all we need. Thank you.


21 Q. Sir, after you --

22 JUDGE HUNT: Are you going to do something about that.

23 MS. KORNER: That shows how long it's been since I've been in

24 court. Your Honour, may I ask that be marked an exhibit.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

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Page 447

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand it's Exhibit 18,

2 Prosecution Exhibit 18.

3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, none. I received

4 the tape a few days ago from the OTP.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P18. That's the

6 number that's been assigned on the list, is it?

7 MS. KORNER: It is, I'm told.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Very well, P18.

9 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, as required, a statement from the

10 person who took them, actually made the video.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know. Is that part of an agreement, or is it

12 being tendered separately or what?

13 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think I can leave that. I think

14 it's by agreement, in any event, so --

15 JUDGE HUNT: But the tape has gone in without objection.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: And it's been described by the witness.

18 Do you need the statement?

19 MS. KORNER: No.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I'm just -- I'm puzzled as to what we do with it.

21 MS. KORNER: No. It's just if there were to be any kind of a

22 dispute, there is a statement. But as Your Honour says, it's been put in

23 by agreement.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Or without objection, anyway. Thank you.


Page 448

1 Q. Sir, you've told us that you and Witness 32 both got out of the

2 river. After that, did you return to -- I think, in fact, you went to

3 your parents' house; is that right?

4 A. Yes. Except before that, from that place, we left for Musici.

5 Q. Were either you or Witness number 32 injured at all?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And eventually, as you told us earlier, did you join the army of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much indeed.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet?

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, in your statement, the one you gave to the

14 investigator of the Prosecution, you mention at the very beginning that on

15 the 11th of June, 1992, you became a member of the Visegrad Brigade, which

16 at the start, until the fall of the town, was stationed in Visegrad first

17 and then in Gorazde; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also said that the brigade was reorganised later on to become

20 the 851st Light Glorious, or famous, Brigade; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was that a Muslim brigade? Was it made up of Muslims alone, or

23 were there any Serbs in the brigade?

24 A. No. They were only Muslims.

25 Q. Can you explain, please, when you refer to the fall of the town,

Page 449

1 do you mean the point at which the Uzice Corps entered the town? Is that

2 what you mean by "the fall"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In your statement, it says that the brigade was in the town of

5 Visegrad itself before the fall of Visegrad; is that correct?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But you've just confirmed that in your written statement you said

8 that it was stationed in Visegrad until the fall of Visegrad.

9 A. But Visegrad is a whole territory, so it wasn't stationed in the

10 centre of town. It was at the periphery, on the outskirts, in a village.

11 Q. Do you know whether it was a regular army or a paramilitary

12 formation?

13 A. No. It was an organised brigade. Actually, it was the TO of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Just a minute, Mr. Domazet. We are having the usual

16 problems about when you're both speaking the same language.

17 Sir, when you are speaking the same language as counsel, it is

18 very difficult for the interpreters to keep up because there is no pause

19 while there is a translation going through. So after Mr. Domazet has

20 asked his question, would you pause before you start the answer? Thank

21 you.

22 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Let me go back for a moment to the day that you spoke about at

24 length here today. But let me ask you first of all something else. I

25 think you said today that it was Saturday, the 7th of June, 1992. That

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Page 451

1 was the date you gave us; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you quite sure that it was a Saturday, or are you more certain

4 that it was the 7th of June?

5 A. Yes, both. It was the 7th of June 1992, Saturday, and the time

6 was 1730 hours.

7 Q. Although I don't consider this to be essential, that is not

8 correct, because actually Sunday was the 7th, so Saturday could only have

9 been the 6th of June. That is why I'm asking you are you more certain

10 that it was a Saturday or a Sunday, or rather the 6th or the 7th of June?

11 A. The date was the 7th of June.

12 Q. So if I understand what you're saying, you're certain that it was

13 the 7th of June. But that means that you're not quite sure whether it was

14 a Saturday or Sunday; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Now, I'm not going to ask you about the events in Bikavac and up

17 to the arrival in Vilina Vlas except to ask you about a few points on

18 which there is some difference between what you said today and the

19 statement and what Witness VG32 said. So this is what I want to ask you:

20 Could you tell us, please, what order did the vehicles proceed towards

21 Banja? The Passat or the Yugo?

22 A. The Passat went first.

23 Q. I assume that the Passat then arrived in front of the hotel at

24 Visegradska Banja as well; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 452

1 Q. Are you sure? Because VG32 claims that the Yugo went ahead and

2 reached Banja before the Passat.

3 A. I can't guarantee that.

4 Q. When you went towards the entrance of the hotel in Banja, who was

5 the first person that you happened to notice?

6 A. Momir Savic.

7 Q. Was he standing at the very entrance to the hotel, in front of the

8 entrance? What was he wearing?

9 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, a black hat.

10 Q. When you say camouflage uniform, do you mean the camouflage

11 uniform of the then JNA?

12 A. Well, let me tell you. That uniform was worn by the former JNA.

13 As you know they had an olive-green/grey uniform and a camouflage uniform

14 depending on their assignment.

15 Q. Yes. I agree with you there. I know that there was the

16 olive-green uniform and that was uni-coloured, one coloured; is that

17 right? And then there was the camouflage uniform, which, like all

18 camouflage uniforms, was multi-coloured. So I'm asking you is it that

19 type of camouflage uniform which the army used in addition to the

20 olive-green/grey uniform?

21 A. No. It was a blue camouflage uniform.

22 Q. Do you happen to know who used the blue camouflage uniform

23 generally?

24 A. I didn't come across it previously, but I know that the police

25 force wore that type of uniform.

Page 453

1 Q. On that particular day, was Milan Lukic wearing that kind of

2 camouflage uniform?

3 A. I think it was green.

4 Q. You're not sure whether it was a blue camouflage uniform or the

5 green-brown type of camouflage uniform? Is that what you're saying?

6 A. It was a blue uniform, and on the left shoulder, it said

7 "police". And I think that that is recorded in the statement as well.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, I'm afraid I'm getting confused as to

9 whether we are talking about the man standing outside the entrance to the

10 hotel or Lukic.

11 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour, we are speaking about other person.

12 Momir Savic -- sorry, we are speaking about Milan Lukic now.

13 JUDGE HUNT: You can see how the confusion has arisen.

14 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Now, to avoid that, let's repeat. Momir Savic

16 was wearing a camouflage uniform, but could you tell the Court again which

17 type of camouflage uniform?

18 A. It was a green camouflage uniform.

19 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you again. Milan Lukic was also wearing a

20 camouflage uniform, was he not? And you said that it had the police sign

21 written upon it. What colour was his camouflage uniform?

22 A. I think it was the blue one.

23 Q. What uniform were the other two soldiers wearing who went with you

24 from Bikavac to Vilina Vlas?

25 A. That young guy who came with Lukic to my flat was wearing the

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Page 455

1 olive-green/grey uniform, and the other young man, I don't remember.

2 Q. Are you talking about the two men who were with you in Vilina Vlas

3 and on the banks of the Drina? Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As you have said, they were differently dressed. Do you remember

6 how the one who was in the Passat with you was dressed -- until you

7 arrived at the Vilina Vlas hotel? How was he dressed?

8 A. I don't know which one you mean.

9 Q. I mean the soldier who was with you in the Passat vehicle, and of

10 course Lukic, who was driving the Passat.

11 A. I think I said he was wearing the olive-green/grey uniform; the

12 soldier who came with Lukic, that is.

13 Q. Who was with Lukic and you in the Passat on your journey to Vilina

14 Vlas; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You told us who you saw first and that it was Momir Savic before

17 you went in to the reception desk. When you went into the reception hall,

18 as you said a moment ago, on the left-hand side you saw Mitar Vasiljevic.

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. On the left-hand side, there is a door leading to the swimming

21 pool, and then there is also a passageway. Can you tell us whether this

22 was at the entrance to the pool -- there was a path. Was it at the

23 entrance to the pool, or where was it?

24 A. Between the path and the entrance to the pool.

25 Q. In your assessment, how far -- how great is the distance between

Page 456

1 that place and the path and the reception at the bottom of the corridor?

2 A. Sir, you're going to great details. At that time, I was very

3 afraid and excited, and I really can't measure in metres. I can't say.

4 Q. I'm very sorry, sir, if my question disturbs you at all. I didn't

5 mean to upset you. I know that you had no idea of measuring. But you

6 were there two months ago again. We saw this on the video. And so I

7 assumed that you could explain to us details of this kind. Let me repeat

8 the question: Is the hall as big as this courtroom here?

9 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a moment. It's 11.00. I should tell your

10 co-counsel that his principal task in this trial is to make sure that you

11 realise when we are coming up to the time for an adjournment.

12 But Mr. Domazet my problem is this: What is all this about? We

13 are told there is no real dispute about this. I know that you have been

14 testing his memory about who was wearing what and what day of the week it

15 was and everything, but that can be taken just so far. Are we going to

16 see what different impression was made upon this man who doesn't suggest

17 that he was a frequenter of this hotel like 32 was, what his impression

18 was at this time, and what may have been refreshed two months ago? What

19 does it do for us? How does it help us? It doesn't, insofar as I can

20 see, assist in any way in judging his credit as a witness if he is or not

21 able to give you these sorts of measurements. So when we resume at 11.30,

22 may I suggest that we move on to what is in dispute?

23 We will resume at 11.30.

24 --- Break taken at 11.02 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

Page 457

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.

2 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, today you said to us that Mitar Vasiljevic

4 had an automatic rifle on that day. When did you first actually see it?

5 A. As soon as I saw Mitar, I saw the rifle as well.

6 Q. So when you first saw him between the entrance into the pool and

7 the reception desk, he had a rifle on him?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How was he holding the rifle?

10 A. He was holding it right next to him, like this.

11 Q. You are showing this with your hand now. You're using your left

12 hand and arm, and you're moving it downwards, aren't you?

13 A. Yes. But it wasn't in his left hand. It was in his right hand.

14 Q. Yes. But you used your left hand to show this, so that is why I

15 said your left hand when describing it for the transcript. Was the rifle

16 readily visible, in terms of the way in which he was carrying it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about the rest who were with you, including Witness VG32?

19 Could they also see that rifle?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. However, he did not see it; do you know that?

22 A. I don't know that.

23 Q. Do you remember that in the statement you gave a few years ago to

24 the investigator of the OTP, you said that Mitar Vasiljevic had a

25 semi-automatic rifle?

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Page 459

1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answer was not audible to the

2 English booth.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Would you repeat that answer, please, sir? You were

4 not heard by the interpreters.

5 A. I do not remember that.

6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So you do not remember that you stated then that he had a

8 semi-automatic rifle?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When leaving the Vilina Vlas Hotel, on the way to the car, did you

11 notice a conversation taking place between Meho Dzafic and Mitar or,

12 rather, that Meho asked Mitar for a cigarette and that Mitar gave him one

13 and that Lukic reacted to that?

14 A. No, I did not notice that.

15 Q. When leaving Vilina Vlas by car, are you sure of the fact that the

16 soldier who was with you in the Passat before then went into the Yugo

17 rather than Mitar Vasiljevic?

18 A. Yes. The soldier went into the Yugo, and Mitar Vasiljevic entered

19 the Passat. He sat in the front seat next to Lukic.

20 Q. According to this statement of yours, in the Passat, there were

21 still five of you and in the Yugo, there were six of them; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As concerns Lukic, did you see him then for the first time at

25 Bikavac when you were captured by him?

Page 460

1 A. I knew Lukic, as I said in my statement, in my school days.

2 However, when he went to Obrenovac, I did not see him. I had not seen him

3 until the moment when he captured me.

4 Q. In your written statement to the investigator, you said literally

5 the following about Lukic - and I'm going to read this out to you and

6 you'll tell me whether you still think so - "It seemed to me that Lukic

7 was superior to the other Serbs. He did not ask anyone what to do with

8 us, while the others put questions to him." Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In view of what you noticed that day, concerning Lukic, would it

11 have been possible for someone who was with him there to influence him and

12 to make him change an order he would give?

13 A. In my opinion, there was no such person around him.

14 Q. A while ago, we saw a film. And also in your statement, you said

15 that in the car by Sase, Milan Lukic asked Mitar Vasiljevic about a house,

16 whether it was a Muslim house, and he got an affirmative answer to that.

17 My question is whether that is the house that we saw on the film on the

18 right-hand side when you look at it from the road, and is that where you

19 stopped in 1992?

20 A. Yes, that's the house, in front of which we stopped. However, I

21 do not know whether it was a Muslim house or whether it was a Serb house.

22 Q. Did I understand you correctly that that is the house that was

23 referred to and in front of which you stopped?

24 A. Yes, that's the house.

25 Q. In 1992, did it look the same way?

Page 461

1 A. No. It was covered in a different way.

2 Q. Does that mean that it had a different roof, or that it was

3 covered by something else?

4 A. The roof of the house was different.

5 Q. You said today that Milan Lukic was the man who ordered you to get

6 out of the car and who ordered you all to walk towards the Drina? On that

7 occasion, did he give orders to the effect that he wanted everyone to

8 remain silent and that he didn't want anyone to say a word? Do you

9 remember that kind of an order issued by him?

10 A. I do not remember any such order, but I do remember that he said

11 that we shouldn't try to run away, because -- that they'd kill us.

12 Q. You said today that Meho Dzafic asked Mitar for help at a given

13 point in time. Was this at the moment when you were lined up along the

14 bank of the Drina?

15 A. Yes, it was at that moment.

16 Q. At that moment, when you heard Meho Dzafic's words, did you hear

17 somebody else's words, some other person from your group saying something

18 similar to that or saying something to the effect that they should not

19 kill?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I'm asking you this because Witness VG32 said that at that moment,

22 Meho started moaning and he mentioned Mitar's name, but that Kurtalic also

23 at that moment started speaking and that at that moment, the shooting

24 started, and that interrupted what they were saying. Do you remember

25 that?

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Page 463

1 A. I don't remember that.

2 Q. Or, rather, when anyone started to speak, anyone from that group,

3 Meho included, did the shooting start straight away?

4 A. Right after these words, the shooting started.

5 Q. Witness VG32 maintains that Mitar Vasiljevic did not say a word

6 throughout this time. Are you sure that he said something or that he had

7 time to say anything in response to Meho Dzafic's plea?

8 A. Well, let me tell you. I already mentioned during my testimony

9 that after Meho Dzafic's plea, addressed to Mitar, not to kill him because

10 they were colleagues from work, the other one answered him that he did not

11 know him. That is the only conversation that I heard.

12 Q. However, this conversation was not heard by VG32. Was he in a

13 position to hear it, if that conversation was taking place loudly?

14 A. Sir, I can't tell you that because in that situation, my

15 perception was -- I mean, perhaps we were not focused on that, listening

16 to these conversations or whatever. We were thinking about our children

17 who would be orphaned.

18 Q. I understand your response, but please do understand that there is

19 a difference, a considerable difference at that, between what you have

20 been saying about this and Witness VG32. I have been seeking an answer,

21 and I'm not going to ask you anything else about that.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, it really doesn't help us to try and get

23 this witness to say what he thinks of another witness's evidence.

24 MR. DOMAZET: I'm finished with this.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I'm glad.

Page 464


2 Q. [Interpretation] Since you explained to us that you are quite

3 familiar with an automatic rifle, please explain the following to me and

4 try to explain this to the Court as well: When you shoot individual

5 gunshots, how fast can these gunshots come one after the another? How

6 many bullets can be fired in succession and how fast?

7 A. Sir, all of this depends on the man who is carrying the weapon.

8 Q. Let me assume that it should be as fast as possible if you are

9 pulling the trigger of the gun as fast as possible. What is the time that

10 lapses between two gunshots?

11 A. Sir, I'm sorry, but these are provocative questions as far as I'm

12 concerned, and they are pointless as far as our discussion is concerned.

13 I'm not a military expert to calculate how fast ammunition is being fired

14 or whatever, so could you please sidestep this issue altogether?

15 Q. Thank you. I won't ask you about this anymore, because I

16 understood from what you said earlier on that you were very familiar with

17 the way this automatic rifle works and that you could talk about it like

18 any other person who was very familiar with such matters. So I'm not

19 going to ask you anything else about this, but I'm just going to ask you

20 whether you remember that in your previous statement to the investigator,

21 you never mentioned the number of gunshots that you allegedly heard on

22 that day.

23 A. No, nobody asked me about this.

24 Q. However, you remember that, and you said that today?

25 A. Yes.

Page 465

1 Q. Another question: After crossing the Drina River and going to

2 your village, how much time did you spend in the village before you left?

3 A. On all territories that were under the control of the then BH

4 Army, I stayed for as long as this army would stay there. That is to say

5 until my village fell, I stayed in it.

6 Q. Let me remind you that you said that on the 11th of June - that is

7 to say, four days after this event - you joined the Visegrad Brigade. Did

8 that mean that you left the village, or not?

9 A. That does not mean that I left the village, because I could have

10 been a member of the BH Army there as well.

11 Q. And what about Witness VG32? Did he stay in the village with you

12 and for how long?

13 A. Yes, he was with me. He was staying at my family home, but I

14 could not remember for how long.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask that

17 we try to agree on certain admitted facts with the Prosecutor that are

18 included in the statement that he gave to the investigator so that we

19 would not have to tender the entire statement.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, the best procedure for this is for you

21 to ask the Prosecution to agree that the particular passage upon which

22 you rely appears in the B/C/S interpretation of the statement, and then

23 the Prosecution either says yes or no, and accept -- that fact can be

24 accepted. Then no documents have to be tendered.

25 There is a problem - of course we have this in every case - that

Page 466












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Page 467

1 the OTP's investigators take the statement from a witness in B/C/S, it's

2 interpreted into English, and it is the English version which the witness

3 signs. And then later on, somebody else interprets the English version

4 back into B/C/S, which is the copy that you are given. Unfortunately, the

5 B/C/S original does not always agree with what is put into the document

6 that you receive. We've had this so often now that it's a wonder nobody's

7 been able to resolve the problem about taking these statements. But all

8 these happened too long ago.

9 Anyway, you ask the Prosecution whether they accept the wording

10 that -- upon which you rely appears in the B/C/S version of the statement,

11 and we'll see what happens.

12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. I asked for

13 your permission to ask the Prosecutor. These are only three specific

14 matters. The first one is that in his statement of 1988 --

15 JUDGE HUNT: You better give some references to the page number

16 and paragraph number, if there is one.

17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] The English version, page 584534,

18 line 5 counting from the bottom. It says, "He had a semi-automatic rifle

19 with him."

20 JUDGE HUNT: That statement was 1998, was it? You're recorded as

21 having said 1988, but I think you said 1998.

22 MR. DOMAZET: Sorry, 1998.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Is that passage accepted, Ms. Korner?

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 468

1 Yes? Your next passage?

2 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Page 584535, line 17, where it

3 says, "Lukic and Vasiljevic were walking on the right-hand side of this

4 column."

5 JUDGE HUNT: Is this again the English version that you're reading

6 from?


8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MS. KORNER: That's accepted.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

11 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: And what was the third one?

13 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] The third one is actually -- there

14 is actually nothing in the statement that confirms the number of

15 gunshots. There is no such passage. Can we just agree on that, that

16 nowhere in the statement does he say that he heard a certain number of

17 shots?

18 JUDGE HUNT: That may take a moment to check, but we'll see how we

19 go.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, from looking at the paragraph dealing

21 with this, that's right.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

23 Is that all, then,

24 Mr. Domazet?

25 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, that's all, Your Honour.

Page 469

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet said he finished with the witness.

4 Yes,

5 Ms. Korner.

6 MS. KORNER: I have no re-examination.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, that finishes your task here at the Tribunal.

8 We're very grateful to you for --

9 JUDGE JANU: I have a question.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, I'm sorry.

11 I'm sorry. Judge Janu has a question.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE JANU: Witness 32, you mentioned putting your trust into the

14 Yugoslav National Army after you describe some actions which were done by

15 White Eagles. And my question is: Did you or somebody else you know try

16 to inform the local authorities about what is going on? For example,

17 police? And if yes, what was the answer from this authority; and if no,

18 why you didn't try to inform the official places?

19 A. I think that somewhere in my statement there is a comment about

20 that. When Lukic took me off, my wife intervened on the same day. She

21 went to the then command which was headquartered at the Bikavac Hotel.

22 However, the answer they gave her was that they asked her which people had

23 taken me off, which people had taken me away. And when she told them that

24 they were these people with soot on their faces, they told my wife that

25 they had no control over those people.

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Page 471

1 JUDGE JANU: Was it the police station when she came to intervene

2 or what place it was?

3 A. Well, let me tell you. It wasn't a police station, no. It was a

4 command post of the then TO, Territorial Defence. How shall I explain

5 this to you? It was a command post, the TO, the Territorial Defence, the

6 Serb units that were put up at the Bikavac Hotel.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, do you want to ask any questions arising

8 out of Judge Janu's questions?

9 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: How about you, Ms. Korner?

11 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, sir, that now does finish your task

13 here. We are very grateful to you for having come along to give your

14 evidence and for the evidence which you have given. You are now free to

15 leave.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE HUNT: Does that conclude your guest role, Ms. Korner?

19 MS. KORNER: It does. Fleeting.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Thank you very much.

21 Yes, Mr. Groome.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls investigator Ib

23 Jul Hansen.

24 Your Honour, there are a couple of exhibits that aren't included

25 in the binder. I'm going to ask our court person to distribute those to

Page 472

1 the Chamber now.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. You are, I understand, going to play this

3 tape recording to us.

4 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, just excerpts from the key portions.

5 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, is it the excerpts that are going

6 to last one and three quarter hours that the Court Deputy was told?

7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, we may have to have a break somewhere

9 along the line, depending at what time you want to play it.

10 MR. GROOME: Well, if you try to do that immediately, Your Honour,

11 and then -- well, there are all short bits in the tape.


13 MR. GROOME: So perhaps when we reach the hour, I will advise the

14 Court of the -- I'll be referring to the portions in the transcript that

15 the Court has in front of it now, and I also -- I will know how many

16 minutes that the next section will be.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

19 the document which the usher is showing you.

20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 MR. GROOME: May I proceed, Your Honour?

Page 473

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, you go ahead.

2 Examined by Mr. Groome:

3 Q. Would you please tell us your name.

4 A. My name is Ib Jul Hansen.

5 Q. And would you briefly describe for the Chamber your

6 educational and professional background.

7 A. I'm a police officer. I joined the police force in 1969, and I

8 have been an investigator since 1973.

9 Q. And would it be fair to say that during the course of your over 30

10 years of police experience, you've investigated a number of different

11 types of cases?

12 A. I would say almost all types of cases.

13 Q. And did that investigative experience also include the

14 investigation of criminal organisations and gangs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber when you first worked for the

17 Office of the Prosecutor here at the Tribunal.

18 A. I worked for OTP from 1995 until 1997, two years, as a seconded

19 from my government, and then I left for another two years, and joined the

20 Tribunal OTP again October 1999.

21 Q. And have you remained in the employment of the Office of the

22 Prosecutor since that time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The first time that you were at the Office of the Prosecutor, was

25 there a predominant victim on the cases that you investigated?

Page 474












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Page 475

1 A. Yes. I was investigating crimes in the aftermath of Operation

2 Storm, which the Croats War in the -- or homeland war, so to speak. And I

3 was at that time looking into what happened to the Serb victims and the

4 Croat perpetrators.

5 Q. Did there come a time in your -- during your second employment at

6 the Office of the Prosecutor that you were assigned to the investigation

7 or the case against Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic?

8 A. Yes. It was December 1999.

9 Q. During the course of your work on that case and subsequent to the

10 arrest of Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic, did you participate in the interview of

11 Mr. Vasiljevic?

12 A. I participated in the interview of Mr. Vasiljevic that took place

13 on the 17th -- 16th and 17th November 2000.

14 Q. And where did that take place?

15 A. It took place in this building, in a special room in the basement.

16 Q. And who was present at that interview?

17 A. Present was the accused; Defence lawyer, Mr. Domazet; and

18 Investigator Yves Roy; myself; you, sir; an interpreter; and a security

19 guard.

20 Q. And was that interview conducted in compliance with the Rules of

21 Procedure as they pertained to the interview of suspects?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was the interview videotaped?

24 A. It was videotaped and audiotaped. I was tasked to do this.

25 Q. And was the accused advised of his right to remain silent?

Page 476

1 A. He was advised at the beginning of each day of his rights.

2 Q. And was he advised--

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could there please be a

4 pause between question and answer before the witness answers the question

5 that is put.

6 MR. GROOME: I apologise.

7 JUDGE HUNT: It's just the same, I'm afraid, as when the B/C/S

8 counsel and the B/C/S witness is speaking.

9 MR. GROOME: Yes.

10 Q. And was the accused advised of his right to have an attorney

11 present?

12 A. The accused was advised about this, yes.

13 Q. And, in fact, his attorney was present; is that correct?

14 A. He was present, yes.

15 MR. GROOME: Just a moment, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Hansen, I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to ask video now to

17 play portions of that tape. And that is Prosecution number 15. And I'm

18 going to -- after I stop the first tape, I'm going to ask you a few

19 questions regarding it. I'd ask that the first portion of the tape be

20 played at this time.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell us where we should have the transcript

22 open?

23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The transcript I would refer you

24 to, transcript -- the first transcript, page 11, line 1.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 477

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. While they are queuing up the next section, Mr. Hansen, I would

4 ask you is that a fair and accurate depiction of the interview that was

5 conducted on the 16th of last year -- 16th of November last year?

6 A. Yes

7 Q. And the portion that we've just viewed, did that occur after he

8 was -- Mr. Vasiljevic was advised of his rights under the Rules of

9 Procedure of the Tribunal?

10 A. Yes. He was advised about his rights at the beginning of the

11 interview.

12 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the second section be played. And I

13 would refer the Chamber to page 29, line 14. That's page 29, line 14.

14 [Videotape played]

15 JUDGE HUNT: A few problems with the transcript there. One of

16 them is significant -- or perhaps two of them. They refer in the

17 transcript to "the SDA," where it was obviously "the SDS" that was said.

18 And the next one, I think, was cured by something he'd said later, but I

19 think at page 31, line 16, the answer as interpreted was, "were Serbs from

20 Serbia."

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, well, we will make those amendments to

22 the -- to the transcript.

23 I'll also just correct the record. I referred to this as

24 Prosecution number 18. Prosecution number 18 was the written transcript.

25 This is in fact the -- the tape itself is Prosecution number 22.

Page 478












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Page 479

1 So last, as we move to the next portion, I would refer Your

2 Honours to page 33, at line 19.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, I would refer you for the next section

5 to page 40, line 25.

6 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honour --

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Domazet.

8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a comment to

9 make with respect to the transcript, the portion we've just heard. On

10 page 35, in fact, line 24, where it says [In English] "Before I went to

11 the hospital, [Interpretation] Mitar Vasiljevic" - and you could hear it

12 very well - gave a date, and the date was the 14th of June, 1992. But

13 this was not translated and is not evident in the transcript. It was

14 quite audible, though.

15 JUDGE HUNT: If there is some problem with that, we could get one

16 of the interpreters to listen to this.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I will accept Mr. Domazet's

18 representation regarding that, and we'll stipulate that the transcript be

19 amended accordingly.

20 JUDGE HUNT: So, then, after the words "to the hospital," he may

21 have the date the 14th of June, 1992.

22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

23 MR. DOMAZET: Sorry.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Was there something else?

25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] When he went to hospital, not when

Page 480

1 he left the hospital. When he went to hospital, not when he left.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I don't recall having used the word -- I'm not

3 recorded as having used the word "from the hospital" or "left the

4 hospital." I used the words "to the hospital." Anyway, we know now what

5 you say, Mr. Domazet.

6 Yes, Mr. Groome.

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would refer you for -- the next

8 section would be page 40, line 25.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, for the next portion of the tape, I

11 would refer the Chamber to page 43, line 7.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, the next portion of the videotape I

14 would refer you to, page 50 at line 19.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next portion is the accused

17 recounting the events at the Drina River and runs for approximately 15

18 minutes. Would you like --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, I'll repeat that, Your Honour. The next

21 portion of the video is where the accused recounts his version of what

22 happened at the Drina River on the 7th of June, and runs approximately 15

23 minutes.

24 Would the Court wish me to --

25 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, we will deal with that after the luncheon

Page 481

1 adjournment. But before we go, there are a couple of questions I'd like

2 to ask you. What's happening about the agreed facts? We still haven't

3 got a signed document.

4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. We will be moving several items

5 into evidence later today, and that will be one of them.

6 JUDGE HUNT: The next -- seeing that it's been left so long, your

7 response to Mr. Domazet's argument in his supplementary pre-trial brief, I

8 think, better be put in writing.

9 MR. GROOME: It has, Your Honour. It's been filed this morning.

10 JUDGE HUNT: And finally, somebody - I don't know which party it

11 is - keeps on suggesting to the Victims and Witnesses Section that a

12 witness they want to call is an expert. And at the moment, I think it

13 must be the Prosecution. And the Victims and Witnesses Section seems to

14 think that this is a matter for the Trial Chamber to determine. I've

15 never had to deal with this before. I don't know why the Victims and

16 Witnesses Section have to know whether somebody is expert or otherwise.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm aware of this, and I will

18 investigate this and have an answer for the Court this afternoon.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I hope the answer is we needn't worry about it. It

20 seems to be way beyond our competence. Do they get some special treatment

21 if they are an expert?

22 MR. GROOME: I think experts receive a professional fee.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, fees. Well, that's certainly something we

24 are not concerned with.

25 Very well, then. Well, if that's a good time to break,

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Page 483

1 we will take the break now. We will resume at 2.30.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.
























Page 484

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome?

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I continue, I just want to

4 correct the record. I inadvertently referred to the transcript as Exhibit

5 number 18. It is in fact Exhibit number 15.

6 JUDGE HUNT: It's not even an exhibit yet.

7 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, document 15.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. All right. Thank you.

9 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the next portion of the video be played,

10 and I'd refer Your Honours to page 53, line 22. It's 53, line 22.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next portion of the tape begins on

13 your transcript page 83, line 13.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Are we not going to go into the other questions that

15 were asked? There were a series of questions asked.

16 MR. GROOME: If Your Honour wishes. Just in the interest of time,

17 those are the edited portions the Prosecution wanted to enter. But I

18 would be more than willing to continue to play the tape at this point.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, no. I'm taking advantage of this to read the

20 transcript, which we haven't seen before. But it's still -- if it goes

21 into evidence, we will be able to look at it.

22 Now, what was your next page?

23 MR. GROOME: The next page, Your Honour, will be page 83, line 13.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next excerpt is just on the very

Page 485

1 next page, page 85, and I draw your attention to line 10.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask the video booth just to

4 continue with the tape? The next few questions are germane. I'm not sure

5 why we had instructed them to stop at that point.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you tell them how far you want to go.

7 MR. GROOME: I will cue him when we finish this section, Your

8 Honour. I don't have the time stamp of when I want him to stop, but I

9 will let him know. I propose we will go until page 89, Your Honour.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that we stop there and go to another

12 section. Your Honour, the next section -- I'm referring to the second

13 part of the transcript, and that's page 17, line 17.

14 JUDGE HUNT: The second part? You mean the second day?

15 MR. GROOME: Yes, the second -- the second transcript. We handed

16 two sets of transcripts, and they are -- the pagination begins again at 1.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next section I would refer Your

19 Honours to is page 68, line 25.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, for the next section, I would refer Your

22 Honours to page 70, line 2.

23 JUDGE HUNT: You must have a different pagination to us because

24 the last one started on 69, not 68, and we are already well into page 70.

25 MR. GROOME: I apologise, Your Honour, I'll see if I can get you

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Page 487

1 the proper reference now.

2 JUDGE HUNT: How does it start?

3 MR. GROOME: It begins, Your Honour, with a question by me saying,

4 "Okay. You mentioned earlier today about the [redacted] family."

5 JUDGE HUNT: Page 70, line 30. All you've done is you've left out

6 the reference, "Does he know anybody else by the same name?"

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that concludes all of the video that the

9 Prosecution seeks for the Court to listen to at this time. We will be

10 moving it into evidence and -- as well as the transcript. I just want to

11 ask a few more questions to the investigator regarding the video to lay a

12 foundation before I enter it into evidence, or tender it into evidence.

13 JUDGE HUNT: You may proceed.


15 Q. Investigator Hansen, have you been watching this video as it's

16 played?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And does it fairly and accurately represent the video interview --

19 videotaped interview of the accused that you participated in?

20 A. Yes, it did.

21 Q. And that were you responsible for video recording?

22 A. I was.

23 MR. GROOME: At this time, Your Honour, I would tender Prosecution

24 number 22 into evidence.

25 JUDGE HUNT: That's the tape, is it?

Page 488

1 MR. GROOME: That's the tape itself, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we are talking about

4 this tape with the conversation of Mitar Vasiljevic, then I have no

5 objections to make.

6 JUDGE HUNT: That's what we are talking about. It will be Exhibit

7 P22.

8 Now, have you got only an English transcript, or have you got a

9 B/C/S one as well?

10 MR. GROOME: I only have an English one here in court today, Your

11 Honour. And that is Exhibit number 15, which I would tender at this time

12 subject to corrections to the transcript that Mr. Domazet and myself would

13 agree by stipulation to some of which the Court has pointed out.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection to document 15, Mr. Domazet?

15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The -- I have the

16 translation into B/C/S, and the accused has it too. All I wish to note is

17 that in the English text, there are some slight errors, so I will compare

18 it with the B/C/S translation that I have for any additions, amendments,

19 or whatever. But I don't think they are significant.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if there any significant ones, you can discuss

21 those with Mr. Groome and between you, you can agree. I must confess the

22 American term "stipulate" always worries me. It has so many different

23 meanings, I'm not sure which one is intended. However, if you agree

24 between the two of you that it should be amended, the amendments will be

25 made that will be P.15. There is no reference anywhere to the protected

Page 489

1 witnesses anywhere?

2 MR. GROOME: There were two, Your Honour, but I discussed them

3 now.

4 JUDGE HUNT: This is otherwise a public document. Perhaps you

5 better work out where they should be redacted, for the purposes of it

6 being a public document, and we can make the alteration later. Nobody is

7 going to be reading it overnight, I should think, but we should have to

8 know if we have to quote part of it. We should not be quoting somebody's

9 name who should not be there.

10 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I also point out that one of the

11 people mentioned has the same name as one of the protected witnesses. I

12 think that will become clear who that is later in the trial, but I would

13 also point that out to the Court.

14 JUDGE HUNT: We've got two people who have the same name,

15 Mr. Groome.

16 In a previous trial, I remember a Serbian counsel making this

17 submission, which was apparently accepted by all concerned, that the Serbs

18 have very few names; that is the purpose of all these nicknames that we

19 have. And indeed in this trial, there were 11 people of the same name,

20 Zoran Vukovic, living in the same town of Foca. I'm not sure whether

21 you're going to lead evidence about that or whether that is -- that is the

22 fact. But here you've two people of the same name, have you?

23 MR. GROOME: Yes. May I continue, Your Honour?

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, you may proceed.


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Page 491

1 Q. Investigator Hansen, did there come a time when you went to

2 Visegrad and examined the crime scenes involved in this case?

3 A. Yes. I've been to Visegrad several times. The first time was in

4 November 2000. I don't know if -- if that's ...

5 Q. I want to draw your attention -- did you go there on a particular

6 date with a specific purpose of taking pictures of the area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was that?

9 A. It was in June. It is more exact on the 26th of June this year,

10 2001.

11 Q. And was there a professional photographer assigned to work with

12 you on that day?

13 A. Yeah, there was a photographer from the OTP.

14 Q. Okay. What was the name of the photographer from the Office of

15 the Prosecutor?

16 A. His name was -- is Zoran Lesic.

17 Q. Your Honour, I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

18 number 17-5. It's in the folder 17 of the exhibit binders provided to the

19 Court.

20 JUDGE HUNT: When you say volume 17, we have no volume 17.

21 MR. GROOME: I mean the index separator.

22 JUDGE HUNT: I see.


24 Q. Investigator Hansen, I'd ask you to look at what's on the ELMO

25 now.

Page 492

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You recognise what that is?

3 A. It is a burnt-out house on -- next to a creek in Visegrad, in

4 Pionirska Street

5 Q. For the record, do you recall this house by the creek?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And does it fairly -- this picture fairly and accurately represent

8 how the house appeared to you on the day you were there participating in

9 the taking of pictures?

10 A. It does.

11 MR. GROOME: At this time, Your Honour, would I tender 17-5 into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE HUNT: That's a very different photograph to the one that's

14 just been handed up to us. I'm not sure what the relevance of the one

15 we've just been handed up --

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think maybe they've been confused.

17 JUDGE HUNT: This is the house by the creek, is it?

18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. They are both of the house by the

19 creek. One is a closeup.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the one that's on the screen, it hasn't been

21 shown on the video yet. But the one that's up on our screen, that is the

22 one you want to tender and that is the house by the creek.

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there are only two pictures that I'm

24 introducing at this stage, and perhaps if you could be handed both of them

25 at this time.

Page 493

1 JUDGE HUNT: The problem, as the Court Deputy points out, is has

2 the wrong number on the back.

3 MR. GROOME: I apologise.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That's also numbered 17-5.

5 MR. GROOME: I apologise for the misnumbering.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to the photograph marked 17-5,

7 Mr. Domazet, the one that has been shown on the ELMO even though it

8 hasn't been shown on the video?

9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in your hand, you're

10 holding -- I see that both these photographs have been -- are marked "The

11 Houses of Demir Omeragic." Perhaps the houses were taken from different

12 angles.

13 JUDGE HUNT: If you look under the -- if you press the button

14 Video Evidence, you'll see that on the ELMO, one of those numbers, 17-5 -

15 and that is the one that is being tendered - it has now finally got on to

16 the video. Now, have you any objection to that?

17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I haven't got it.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you are entitled to have a copy.

19 MR. GROOME: All the photographs were provided. I'd refer

20 Mr. Domazet to Index number 17.

21 MR. DOMAZET: It's not the same.

22 MR. GROOME: I'll provide Defence counsel with my copy.

23 MR. DOMAZET: Okay.

24 JUDGE HUNT: This is the house by the creek.

25 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.

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Page 495

1 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be Exhibit P17.5.

2 Now, you better somehow sort out what number we should give to the

3 other one when you do tender it.

4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. If I could ask for the copies of

5 the other one, and we'll check before we hand them up.


7 Q. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about this picture

8 while it's up on the ELMO. Where is the creek in relation to the house

9 here?

10 A. The creek is to the left of the house.

11 Q. And I know that the house has been mostly destroyed. Would it be

12 fair to say --

13 A. And behind maybe. To the left and behind.

14 Q. Behind the house from the view that we are seeing now.

15 A. Yes. It's not the best angle to see where the creek is, because

16 the creek -- in the creek, there are quite high trees, and we don't see

17 the trees here.

18 Q. Would it be fair to call this a view of the front of this house?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask now that Exhibit number 17-10 be

21 placed on the ELMO. And I'm having some sent up to the Bench now.

22 Q. Investigator Hansen, I'd ask you to take a look at what has been

23 marked as Prosecution 17-10, a photograph. I ask you, do you recognize

24 what that is?

25 A. I do. It's the rear side of the house, facing the creek.

Page 496

1 Q. And this is the same house --

2 A. It is the same house, yes.

3 Q. Is it a fair and accurate representation of the house as it

4 appeared on the day that you were there?

5 A. Yeah. It -- it was late June, and that was the way the house

6 looked at that date.

7 MR. GROOME: At this time I would tender Prosecution number

8 17-10 into evidence.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

10 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. It will be Exhibit P17.10.

12 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that 17-3 be placed on the ELMO.

13 Q. Investigator Hansen, did there come a time when you participated

14 in taking a photograph of the areas concerned in this case from a

15 helicopter?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. It was on the 1st of September this year, 2001.

19 Q. I'd ask you to take a look at what is now 17-3 - it's on the

20 ELMO - and ask you do you recognize what that is a picture of?

21 A. I do. It's a house by the creek in Visegrad.

22 Q. And does it fairly and accurately represent how the house on the

23 creek appeared at the time you participated in the taking of this

24 photograph?

25 A. Yes, it does.

Page 497

1 Q. I'm going to ask you to take the pointer and I'm going to ask you

2 to trace the creek for the Court, indicate where the creek is?

3 A. This is where the creek is in the trees.

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would move Prosecution

5 number 17-3 into evidence.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, but the one that has been handed up to us

7 is not the same photograph as is being shown on the ELMO. It's from a

8 different perspective or something.

9 MR. GROOME: Sorry for the confusion, Your Honour. Has it been

10 corrected? Is that the correct one?

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, this is now the same photograph. It's also

12 noted as 17-3. Any objection to this, Mr. Domazet?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. But we'd like to

15 receive copies of that photograph, please.

16 JUDGE HUNT: That's fair enough. That will be Exhibit P17.3. And

17 is it true to say that that is Pioneer Street or whatever you like to call

18 it, the one that's at the top of the photograph?


20 Q. Investigator Hansen I'd ask you to identify --

21 A. I don't have the photo now.

22 Q. Put it back on the ELMO. Would you please indicate to the Court

23 where Pionirska Street is on that photograph?

24 A. Yes, this is Pionirska Street.

25 Q. I would ask you to indicate the two houses owned by the Memic

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Page 499

1 family.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. And just -- just so it's clear, I would ask you to indicate where

4 the building depicted in the previous photograph is on that photograph,

5 the house by the creek?

6 A. This is the house by the creek.

7 MR. GROOME: Thank you.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It's still very difficult I'm sorry, when the pointer

9 keeps moving. Let's look at the first of those houses that you want, the

10 one with the awning at the front, that's fairly clear, and the one to the

11 right, those are the two that are owned by that family?

12 MR. GROOME: Yes.

13 Q. Witness, are those the two that are owned by that family?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: And the one on the right, does that consist of two

16 buildings or one building? This is why I've been having trouble with the

17 pointer.

18 A. As far as I remember it consists of one building only.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Is a somewhat smaller one than the one higher up?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


23 Q. And finally, Investigator Hansen, could you indicate where would

24 the school be in relation to where this picture was -- what we see in this

25 picture?

Page 500

1 A. The small part of a concrete area is visible in the upper right

2 corner, and this is a part of the playground in front of the school.

3 Q. Thank you. And finally I'd ask that the exhibit Prosecution

4 number 17-4 be placed on the ELMO. That is an A3-size photograph.

5 Investigator Hansen, I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution 17-4

6 photograph on the ELMO

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell us whether you recognise what's depicted in that photograph?

9 A. I recognise Pionirska Street going from the bottom of the photo to

10 the top, on the right-hand side of the photo is seen the school, which is

11 over here, and in the middle to left-hand side of the photo is the house

12 by the creek and --

13 Q. Is this -- sorry, continue.

14 A. And in all those trees to the left of that house is the creek.

15 Q. Now, is this one of the pictures that was taken from the

16 helicopter during the mission that you participated in?

17 A. Yes. This photo was taken on the 1st of September this year.

18 Q. And does it fairly and accurately depict the scene as you saw it

19 that day?

20 A. It is.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender Prosecution

22 number 17-4 into evidence.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

24 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. It will be Exhibit P17.4.

Page 501


2 Q. Investigator Hansen, pursuant to your work on this case, did there

3 come a time when you showed witnesses photo arrays?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. I'd ask you to describe for the Court the procedure that you

6 followed when you showed witnesses photo arrays?

7 A. After the arrest of the accused, we got a photo of him and an

8 array was made. It was an A3-size paper with 10 or 12 pictures on. Among

9 those 10 or 12 pictures was one picture of the accused, and we showed

10 those arrays to the witnesses we met and interviewed. The pictures showed

11 were -- or the arrays showed were not always the same because we shuffled

12 the pictures and so that the accused wasn't always, let's say, number 4,

13 or number 7. We -- all the pictures were changed from time to time so

14 that the witnesses didn't look at the same array.

15 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the following document be put

16 on the ELMO for demonstrative purposes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: No signatures on it this time?

18 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

19 A. This is an array with 12 pictures among -- among them is the

20 picture of the accused.

21 Q. Is this an array that was actually shown to a witness or --

22 A. This has never been shown to the witness because when a witness

23 was shown one of those arrays, they were asked to sign on the person they

24 pointed out and so did the investigator, so did I. I signed with the date

25 and my name.

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Page 503

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Hansen were they always the same 12 photographs,

2 just rearranged?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Or did you have different ones?

5 A. Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Always the same?

7 A. Yeah.


9 Q. So would it be fair to say that what we see on the ELMO now is

10 what one of the witnesses would have been presented with when you

11 conducted this procedure?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. GROOME: I'm Going to ask now that the witness be shown what

14 Prosecution is calling number 55VG78. Your Honour, for the purposes of

15 clarity we will put a suffix on to the exhibit indicating which protected

16 witness was shown which photo array, if that's acceptable to the Court, so

17 VG78 would be VG78 would be what was shown to witness 78.

18 JUDGE HUNT: When you say a suffix, what do you mean?

19 MR. GROOME: The number coming after 55; so 55 dash.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Okay.


22 Q. I'd ask to you take a look at VG78.

23 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that it not be placed on the ELMO but just

24 shown to the investigator.

25 Q. Investigator Hansen, do you recognize what VG -- Prosecution

Page 504

1 number 55VG78 is?

2 A. Yes. This is the photo array.

3 Q. Without saying the name, please?

4 A. Shown for Witness VG78 on the 23rd of January this year, 2001.

5 And the witness signed the array. She even wrote the name of the accused

6 at the top. And I also signed, or initialled.

7 MR. GROOME: Okay. I'd ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

8 number 55VG87.

9 Q. Investigator Hansen, do you recognize what you have just been

10 shown?

11 A. Yes. This is a -- the photo array shown for Witness VG87 on the

12 18th of January -- on the 18th of January this year. It was signed by the

13 witness, who also wrote his name on the top of the picture.

14 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness now be shown --

15 JUDGE HUNT: I think we've got the idea. Are you going to tender

16 them through the witnesses when they're called, or what?

17 MR. GROOME: What I'm going to propose is that I tender colour

18 copies. I brought the originals into court for the Court to view and for

19 Mr. Domazet to view. I'll actually be tendering colour copies of the

20 actual documents that were shown.

21 JUDGE HUNT: At the time when the witnesses are called?

22 MR. GROOME: I will tender them in -- all through this witness

23 here.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, we might do that when we resume.

25 May I say that we are very grateful for being given a list of the

Page 505

1 witnesses for this week so far in advance. I've never had service like it

2 before in my life in this Tribunal. I note, however, that there has been

3 a typographical error found, so that the last of the witnesses, his

4 pseudonym is VG21. And we will note that accordingly on our copies.

5 We will resume again on Monday. Hopefully next week we might be

6 able to sit through some time on Friday if we are not progressing fast

7 enough through this list. But other than that, is there anything else you

8 want to raise before we adjourn?

9 MR. GROOME: Just one thing, Your Honour. When we provided the

10 exhibit binders, we were unclear how the Court intended to use them. We

11 will be redoing them this weekend. If the Court has not made notes

12 in them, and would like us, I think we can organise them in a way that

13 they'll be a little easier for the Court to use next week.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that will be helpful. Certainly I have enough

15 work this weekend not to read through all the exhibits. Really I don't

16 read them until they are tendered, but you certainly may

17 have them back. Mine are behind me if one of your large staff can pick

18 them up.

19 We will adjourn now until Monday at 9.30.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

22 September, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.