Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1112

 1                          Thursday, 27 September 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 10.01 a.m.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Call the case, please.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7    Mitar Vasiljevic.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Are you able to hear us, sir, in that far away

 9    place?

10                          WITNESS:  WITNESS VG87 [Resumed]

11                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                          [Witness testifies via videolink]

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

15            Mr. Domazet.

16            MR. DOMAZET:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                          Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:  [Continued]

18       Q.   Good morning, Witness VG87.  To continue where we left off

19    yesterday, you described Monday the 15th, the day you went into town and

20    never returned to Pionirska Street.  My question for you is the following:

21    Do you know (redacted) ?

22       A.   Yes, I do.

23       Q.   Did you happen to see him on that particular morning when you left

24    Pionirska, that is to say, Monday, the 15th of June?

25       A.   No, I did not.

Page 1113

 1       Q.   Did you see any of your neighbours at all on that occasion?

 2       A.   No.  I didn't meet any of my next-door neighbours.  I saw a woman

 3    I knew and I asked her where her husband was, and she said that he wasn't

 4    at home.  And I doubted that that was true, but I didn't see him, so I

 5    can't actually say whether he was at home or not.

 6       Q.   [No interpretation]

 7       A.   That's what I thought, yes.  Yes, It seemed to me that he was

 8    carrying a bottle.  Perhaps it wasn't, but that's what it looked like to

 9    me, and a megaphone.

10       Q.   [No interpretation]

11            THE REGISTRAR:  We're not getting a translation of the question in

12    English.

13            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear now?  Could counsel repeat his

14    question, please.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Apparently there was a breakdown somewhere.  Would

16    you repeat your question, please, Mr. Domazet.

17            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18       Q.   In view of the fact that you were able to see Mr. Vasiljevic from

19    time to time, you watched what he was doing from time to time, did he give

20    the impression of an individual who might have been under the effects of

21    alcohol to a greater or lesser extent?

22       A.   No, I don't think so.  I wouldn't say that.

23       Q.   Does that mean that you can't say or --

24       A.   I don't think he was.  I would rather say he wasn't intoxicated

25    than he was.  Now, that all depends.  Some people take to drink

Page 1114

 1    differently, but that wasn't the impression I gained.  He wasn't attacking

 2    anybody, he wasn't rolling around or anything like that.

 3       Q.   Yes, I understand.  I didn't think that was the case.  I know how

 4    you described his movements.  But of course it would have been difficult

 5    to assess whether somebody was drunk or not, or tipsy.  Did you happen to

 6    know (redacted) from Sase at all?

 7       A.   Very slightly.  I know that he was a tall man.  He worked on the

 8    left bank of the Drina.  I don't know for what company.  We weren't

 9    friends, but I did know him a little.  Not very close, though.

10       Q.   Did you happen to notice him on that particular day in Pionirska

11    Street?

12       A.   No, I did not.

13       Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions for you.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome.

15            MR. GROOME:  Just a few, Your Honour

16                          Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

17       Q.   Witness 87, yesterday Mr. Domazet asked you a number of questions

18    regarding the times that different events happened.  Do you recall being

19    asked questions regarding the time?

20       A.   Well, let's see if I can -- perhaps I remember.  Could you refresh

21    my memory?  What do you actually mean?

22       Q.   Mr. Domazet asked you, for example, the time that you first

23    smelled smoke.  Do you recall that?

24       A.   I do.  About 2000 hours, thereabouts, perhaps a little before

25    that, but roundabout 2000 hours.

Page 1115

 1       Q.   And he asked you several questions regarding times that different

 2    events happened concerning your wife.  Do you recall that?

 3       A.   Well, yes, I do, not only my wife but quite a few women together,

 4    several of them.  There were four, plus a child, and then afterwards, when

 5    they went up there to take the car from the garage, I thought everything

 6    was over, but then between 8.00 or 2000 hours and 21 hours they came back

 7    again and they evicted people from the flats into that -- that is to say,

 8    that group of women, with one child and sent them off to the school.  That

 9    was between 8.00 and 9.00.  And they kept them there until 2300 hours,

10    then took them back to Pionirska, took them down the street.  I wasn't

11    able to see or hear them any more, so that was my final parting with

12    them.  I didn't see them any more.

13       Q.   Witness 87, my question to you is:  Are these times that you have

14    given us here yesterday and today, are these approximations of the times

15    that you believe or are you certain that these are the times that these

16    events occurred?

17       A.   An approximation, because it was dark.  Sometimes I would go to

18    the place that I looked out from.  I had a watch, or didn't.  So I would

19    say it was roundabout that time, in the space of 30 minutes at the most,

20    not more than the space of 30 minutes.

21       Q.   And you testified that you later learnt that your wife died in the

22    fire on Pionirska Street that day, and my question to you is:  Do you know

23    from personal knowledge whether she was put into the house before the fire

24    was started or sometime after the fire was started?  Do you have any

25    personal knowledge regarding that fact?

Page 1116

 1       A.   I heard from a man who escaped the fire when there was a

 2    detonation and explosion -- I don't know.  There was an explosion of some

 3    kind and the door opened and the man jumped out of the fire.  And this

 4    group was thrown inside together with my wife.  I heard from him, and he

 5    was a distant relative of my wife.  The man died two years ago in

 6    Sarajevo.  He's not alive now.  He's no longer living.  So that was the

 7    first time that I heard about it.  And later on in Medzedza, when I got

 8    there, I heard some more about it, five or six days later.  I was in

 9    Medzedza for 20 days for treatment and there were stories going around.

10    Some people said it wasn't, but according to what I think and what I

11    heard, most probably she died in the fire.  She was thrown, living, into

12    the fire, into the flames, and you could hear screams at around 2000 hours

13    and three hours later, 2300 hours or perhaps two and a half hours or two

14    hours later, if they went -- no.  Between 8.00 and 9.00.  They stayed

15    there until 2300 hours.  Well, that's it.  It's easy to calculate.

16       Q.   You're referring to hearing screams.  Is this what was told to you

17    or are you saying now that you did hear some screams on that night?

18       A.   In the first burning there was a house which was burnt and smoke.

19    I didn't hear any screams then.  I just heard screams when they came back

20    for the second time to the apartment where there were four women and

21    children.  They set up a great resistance.  They entreated and pleaded,

22    but it was all to no avail.  They turned them out of the flat, into the

23    direction of the school house.  They kept them there until 2300 hours and

24    when they came back after that I heard screams again and entreaties and

25    pleadings that they could be allowed to go to Olovo and so on.  So I heard

Page 1117

 1    screams on two occasions:  When they expelled them and when they returned

 2    them from the school to Pionirska Street.

 3            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Witness 87.

 4            Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further questions.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir, for giving your evidence.  We are

 6    grateful to you for giving that evidence and you are now free to leave.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.  That's fine.  It

 8    wasn't very long.  It didn't take too long.  That was short, short.

 9                          [The witness withdrew]

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Perhaps I should record our gratitude to the

11    technical crew present at the remote location that we now are able to see

12    the witness a little better than we were able to yesterday.  It's a far

13    better picture, even though we don't have the United Nations flag in the

14    background.

15            Have you got the next witness ready?

16                          [The witness entered court]

17            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, madam, the Court deputy who is just beside you

18    there will read to you the terms of the solemn declaration that you are

19    required to make before you give your evidence.  When she has read it to

20    you, you should say in answer to my question do you make that solemn

21    declaration, you should say yes.  Would you please read the solemn

22    declaration to the witness.

23                          WITNESS:  WITNESS VG105

24                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 1118

 1    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                          [Witness testifies via videolink]

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, madam.  Sit down, please.

 4            MR. GROOME:  May I proceed?

 5            I would ask that the witness be shown document 85, the pseudonym

 6    sheet.  Perhaps the court deputy -- Your Honour, I think there's no other

 7    way to do this other than to go into private session and read this to the

 8    witness.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  We'll go into private session, please.

10                          [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                          [Open session]

23            JUDGE HUNT:  We are now in public session.

24            MR. GROOME:

25       Q.   Witness 105, are you from the municipality of Visegrad?

Page 1119

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And --

 3       A.   Yes, yes.

 4       Q.   Can you tell us, were you married?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And how many children did you have?

 7       A.   Five.

 8       Q.   Can you tell us what village you were from?

 9       A.   Zlijeb.

10       Q.   And approximately how many families are in that village?

11       A.   I can't tell you.  There were quite a lot, but I can't tell you

12    exactly.

13       Q.   What was the ethnicity of the people in the village?

14       A.   Muslims.

15       Q.   Did your family own and work a farm in your village?

16       A.   Yes, that's right.

17       Q.   In the spring of 1992 did your husband leave your village because

18    of security concerns?

19       A.   My husband worked in Sarajevo and he came back for us to take us

20    out of that village, but he wasn't able to and he disappeared.  He fled to

21    Zepa and disappeared.

22       Q.   Who did he flee to Zepa with?  What members of your family?

23       A.   With my sons and the people from the village, the menfolk.  They

24    all fled to Zepa.  Some of the women did too, but not all of them.  Some

25    of the women stayed on to look after the land and the cattle, but we

Page 1120

 1    weren't able to look after everything.

 2       Q.   Did you remain behind?

 3       A.   Yes.  My mother-in-law was an invalid.  I wasn't able to go with

 4    her anywhere, so I stayed until they came to expel us.

 5       Q.   Was there a time that regular soldiers of the Yugoslav People's

 6    Army came to the village?

 7       A.   Yes, they did.  They did come, yes, yes.

 8       Q.   And did they set up a command post approximately one half hour

 9    from your village?

10       A.   They came in a kombi van and we were told they were the White

11    Eagles, but I don't know who was what.  All I know is they came.  They

12    sent me into my house, one of them.  He placed an automatic rifle to the

13    nape of my neck and forced me into the house.  He searched the house to

14    see if there were any weapons hidden or whether anybody else was hidden in

15    the house and then he left and I stayed in the house.  That's all.

16       Q.   Are you able to tell us approximately when that occurred?

17       A.   Well, I don't know whether it was Ramadan or not.  I'm not sure.

18    I can't say for sure.  I can't remember.  It's ten years since that time.

19    You know how it is.  One forgets.

20       Q.   Did one of these soldiers identified to you as White Eagles show

21    you a list of names?

22       A.   No.  They did show names, but not to us.  They didn't read them

23    out.  They said, "You have a husband, you have sons."  That's how it was.

24    That's what they said.

25       Q.   Did they ask where your husband and where your sons were?

Page 1121

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes, they did.  They did, and I said that my husband was in

 2    Sarajevo.  I didn't dare say that he had left for Zepa.  But what they had

 3    actually done was to flee to Zepa.  And then he asked me where my sons

 4    were, and I said my sons were in Austria and that's true.  Two of my

 5    sons actually were in Austria.  Two of them came back to take us away from

 6    the war.  However, they were not able to do so.  They fell upon hard

 7    times, and two of them disappeared.  One was killed, one is in Zepa, one

 8    disappeared, and my husband in Srebrenica too.

 9       Q.   Did there come --

10       A.   And my brother-in-law.

11       Q.   Did there come a time when these White Eagles searched your house

12    for weapons?

13       A.   Yes, they did.  They did.  I've already said.  I've told the

14    truth.  I've told you how it was.  Had a pistol but with a permit.  And my

15    brother-in-law had a pistol with a permit.  They took them off -- they

16    took them away with them when they left, so there was nothing left.

17       Q.   I want to draw your attention now to the Muslim holiday of

18    Bajram.  Do you remember when Bajram was in June of 1992?

19       A.   Yes.  I think -- whether it was June or July.  It's after May.

20    But you know, I'm illiterate, so I don't know these things.  But on the

21    third day of Bajram they came to expel us from our house.  It was the

22    third day of Bajram.  And a Wednesday.  I know that it was a Wednesday.

23    There was Milojica from Pozdercici, and he said, "Collect what you

24    need, take some bread for three days, and get going.  You are to be

25    ready."  And they rounded us up at some customs places.  I'm sorry.  At

Page 1122

 1    Carine, at a place called Carine, and the elderly couldn't go there, so

 2    then we got some cattle and some bulls and helped us along and then they

 3    put us into a truck and took us to the fire brigade centre.

 4       Q.   The first time that the White Eagles came to your house, did you

 5    recognise any of the people that were among that group?

 6       A.   No, I didn't.  No.  No.

 7       Q.   This second time that you're describing now on the third day of

 8    Bajram, did you recognise any of the people in this group?

 9       A.   Well, my neighbour Milojica from Pozdercici, he was a neighbour.

10    He came.

11       Q.   And how many people were involved in this second incident on the

12    third day of Bajram?

13       A.   Well, quite a few of them, but I don't know.  I was afraid.  You

14    know how it is when you have to leave your house and all your belongings

15    and everything.  I didn't count them.  There were quite a few of them.

16    That's the main thing.  And they rounded us up in a meadow, in a field.

17    They rounded us up there and then waited until we were all there, we had

18    all gathered there.  And then they put us all into a truck and took us to

19    the fire brigade centre.

20       Q.   Can you describe the truck for us?  It was an army truck or a

21    private truck?

22       A.   No, it was not a military truck, no.  Just a regular truck, a

23    privately owned truck.

24       Q.   And where precisely did they bring you?

25       A.   To the fire brigade centre.

Page 1123

 1       Q.   And is that in the centre of Visegrad town?

 2       A.   Yes, in the centre.

 3       Q.   How many floors are in that building?

 4       A.   Two floors.

 5       Q.   And can you describe for the Court what occurred when you were

 6    brought to the fire brigade?

 7       A.   When we were brought to the fire brigade they rounded us up.  They

 8    took our names down.  They registered us.  Then they told us to discard

 9    our gold, jewellery, and money, which we did, if we had any.  We gave them

10    everything.  But they didn't trust us.  They didn't believe us.  And then

11    they herded us all in a room upstairs, in groups of four, four women, and

12    we were searched there again.  And once again we had to give them

13    everything we had.  I had my wristwatch with me, but he took it away from

14    me and he smashed it on the floor.  And I said that that was the only

15    thing I had.  And then they took us back downstairs.  At that point the

16    men were taken away, one by one.  And that's how it happened.

17       Q.   You referred to a person as "he" who searched you and broke your

18    watch.  Do you know the identity of that person?

19       A.   I don't know his name, because I didn't know him, but I heard

20    other people refer to him as Lakic by surname.  But I'm not sure.

21       Q.   And during the course of that search, were you and the other women

22    made to take your clothes off?

23            THE INTERPRETER:  Correction.  Lakic's son.

24       A.   Yes.  Some did, some didn't.  I took some of my clothes and he

25    searched me to see if I had any jewellery or money on me.

Page 1124

 1            MR. GROOME:

 2       Q.   Of the people at the fire brigade at this time, did you recognise

 3    any of the perpetrators?

 4       A.   The people who took our people away?  Lukic and Vasiljevic.

 5       Q.   Let me ask you about Milan Lukic first.  Did you know him prior to

 6    this day?

 7       A.   No.  No, I didn't.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome, that was a very leading question and it

 9    doesn't help us.  If you want to get an identity, please get it from the

10    witness.

11            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12       Q.   Can you describe the circumstances under which you learnt the name

13    of this person you just described?

14       A.   Well, yes, I can describe him.  People who knew Lukic and this

15    other guy, Vasiljevic, people knew him.  I cannot tell you anything else.

16    I can only tell you what I know about.  I can only tell you the truth.

17       Q.   Can you describe for us what you know about this other person

18    you're referring to as Vasiljevic?

19       A.   Only what I know.  They took away Mujo Gluscevic and his

20    daughter was there when he was taken away, and she started to cry.  And he

21    took her.  He hugged her.  He said, "Don't cry."  I also have a daughter.

22    Your daddy will be back, will be exchanged."  That's all I know about

23    Vasiljevic.

24       Q.   Before I ask you what Mr. Vasiljevic did, I would ask you to

25    describe the circumstances under which you know him?

Page 1125

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry.  We didn't hear the witness.

 2       A.   He used to work as a waiter.  That's what I heard from other

 3    people, that is, that he was from Blaca, from that area.  That's what I

 4    heard.  And that's all I know.

 5            MR. GROOME:

 6       Q.   Did you know the name of his wife?

 7       A.   Esma.  His wife is from Pozdercici, from the village of Hrastovi.

 8    I think her name is Milojka.

 9       Q.   And can you describe for the Court when is the first time you saw

10    Mitar Vasiljevic at any time?

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Here we go again.  That is a leading question.  There

12    is no suggestion that there is any evidence of that name.  Don't you

13    understand, Mr. Groome, that if you want this case to be accepted, it

14    should be presented in the usual way, non-leading?  Leading questions

15    invite an answer which are of very little value.  You are destroying your

16    own case by continually doing this.

17            MR. GROOME:  I apologise, Your Honour.  It's not my intention to

18    use the first name and it's my intention to simply establish when is the

19    first time she saw the person she referred to in her testimony.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  As Vasiljevic.

21            MR. GROOME:  As Vasiljevic.  I apologise for using the first name.

22       Q.   Can you describe for us when is the first time you saw this person

23    you've referred to as Vasiljevic?

24       A.   I don't know what else to say.  I didn't know who he was until I

25    saw him at the fire brigade.

Page 1126

 1       Q.   Did there come a time when you were asked to look at a group of

 2    pictures?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And did you recognise any of the people in those pictures?

 5       A.   Only Vasiljevic.

 6       Q.   And how did you mark the picture that you recognised?

 7       A.   Well, because I used to see him, but I didn't know who he was.

 8    But I did see him in Visegrad from time to time, and then I saw him at the

 9    fire brigade.  So that was the picture that I had, the image, I mean, at

10    the fire brigade centre.

11       Q.   When you saw this group of pictures, did you do anything to

12    document or indicate which picture you recognised?

13       A.   Yes.  I pointed to his photograph and I said that that was the man

14    that I knew, that I recognised him.

15            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before I show the witness the next

16    witness, I'd ask that we go into private session briefly.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  How is her pointing to it or otherwise marking it

18    going to identify her?

19            MR. GROOME:  I think when she is shown the exhibit and the Court

20    sees the exhibit it will be clear.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  We'll go into private session.

22                          [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1127













13    Page 1127 – redacted – private session.













Page 1128












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1129












12   Page 1129 – redacted – private session.














Page 1130

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                          [Open session]

 7            MR. GROOME:

 8       Q.   Did there come a time when some of the men that were in the fire

 9    brigade were taken from the fire brigade?  Can you hear me?

10       A.   You're asking me?  Oh, okay.

11       Q.   Did there come a time when some of the men were taken from the

12    fire brigade?

13       A.   You mean at what time or --

14       Q.   I'm asking you --

15       A.   They were taken at dusk.  It was already dark when they were

16    taken.

17       Q.   How many days --

18       A.   One by one.

19       Q.   How many days transpired between the day that you arrived at the

20    fire brigade and the day that the first man was taken out of the fire

21    brigade?

22       A.   On the third day.

23       Q.   And who were the people that took these men out of the fire

24    brigade?

25       A.   The Lukics and this other man, those who were with us, who came

Page 1131

 1    with us.

 2       Q.   Were these men taken out at the same time?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Were they taken out on the same day?

 5       A.   On the same day, yes.

 6       Q.   Do you know the identities of the people that were taken out of

 7    the fire brigade on that day?

 8       A.   The names?  Let me see.  There was Sabanovic.  Just a second.

 9    Mustafa.  Ibrahim Kesmer, Hamed Kesmer, Meho Softic, Samir Softic, Hasan

10    Gluscevic, Hasib Gluscevic, Mujo Gluscevic, Sifet Gluscevic, Sejo Hodzic,

11    Adem Kosic, Salko Suceska, Djelal Hodzic, Avdija Nuhanovic, Huso or Husein

12    Vilic, Meho Agic, Emin Agic.  I think that's 18.

13       Q.   I want to ask you specifically about one of these people.  You

14    mentioned Mujo Gluscevic.  Did you observe him when he was taken out of

15    the building?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And who were the people that took him out of the building?

18       A.   The two of them, Lukic and Vasiljevic.  Nobody else came.  The two

19    of them would come from time to time to the fire brigade, no one else.

20       Q.   Now, Mr. Mujo Gluscevic, did he have other family members present

21    in the fire brigade?

22       A.   His mother, his wife, two children, his son and his daughter.

23       Q.   Approximately how old was his daughter?

24       A.   I think she was not older than 12 or 13, but I don't know for

25    sure.  I cannot remember.

Page 1132

 1       Q.   And at the time her father was taken away, did either of these two

 2    people you've described as taking them away, did they say anything to this

 3    girl?

 4       A.   Vasiljevic said something, because she was crying, and then he

 5    took her, he put her in his lap, and he said, "Don't cry.  Your daddy will

 6    be exchanged at Pale."

 7       Q.   And you were present when that conversation --

 8       A.   But never, you know.

 9       Q.   You were present when that conversation took place?

10       A.   Yes.  Yes, I was.

11       Q.   How long were you kept in the fire brigade building?

12       A.   I can't remember whether it was five, six, or seven days,

13    thereabouts.  I don't remember.  Because we were afraid at that time, and

14    ten years have gone by, so you know how it is.

15       Q.   Did there come a day when you were taken out of the fire brigade

16    building?

17       A.   There were convoys that had been organised beforehand for us to be

18    taken to Olovo, and when we left the fire brigade, we were first of all

19    rounded up, those from the village of Zlijeb.  They didn't let us board

20    the trucks and they took us back to the fire brigade.

21       Q.   Did there come a time when you were put on a truck that left the

22    fire brigade?

23       A.   Later on we were put on a truck and taken to Lijeska, but once we

24    got to Lijeska, the truck broke down and we spent there the whole day.

25    And after the truck was repaired, it was taken back to Visegrad.  They

Page 1133

 1    said that we would be taken back to Visegrad, to the SUP building, and

 2    they said, "Then let the SUP people do with them as they please."

 3       Q.   When you were brought back, where were you housed at this time?

 4       A.   In the school building, in Nova Mahala.

 5       Q.   And how many days did you spend in the school?

 6       A.   Three or four days, approximately.

 7            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Witness 105.  I have no further questions.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Will you be able to find out for us, Mr. Groome, just

 9    when Ramadan was in 1992, perhaps also when Bajram was?  Unless there's

10    some other evidence about Bajram.  There may be.

11            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we have an official document from the

12    Muslim society with the calendar for that year.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you very much.

14            Yes, Mr. Domazet.

15                          Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:

16       Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, you testified today that on the third day

17    of Bajram, certain individuals came to your village and told you to

18    leave the village.

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   In relation to say what you have testified about today, did you

21    ever give a statement to an investigator of the OTP here in The Hague?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Do you remember saying that the event took place on the 17th of

24    June, 1992, on a Wednesday?

25       A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

Page 1134

 1       Q.   Is it still your testimony that the event took place on Wednesday,

 2    on the 17th of June, 1992, that that was the date when you were taken to

 3    the fire brigade in Visegrad?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   You told us today that they started taking people away on the

 6    third day after your arrival in the fire brigade.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   You also told us that you spent five, six, or maybe seven days in

 9    the fire brigade.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   During that period of time, that is, during those five, six, or

12    seven days that you spent in the fire brigade, did you also happen to see

13    an individual whom you've referred to by Vasiljevic, apart from Lukic?

14       A.   Yes.  The two of them were the only ones who visited us there.

15    No one else came.

16       Q.   I understand that, but I should like to know whether the two of

17    them visited you until the last day you were there.

18       A.   You mean in the school?  They did while we were in the fire

19    brigade but not when we were in the school.

20       Q.   Yes.  I was asking you about the fire brigade.

21       A.   Yes.  Yes.  The two of them would come from time to time, just the

22    two of them.

23       Q.   Could you describe for us what they were wearing when they came?

24       A.   Civilian clothes.  Civilian suits.

25       Q.   Was there anything else, anything in particular that you would

Page 1135

 1    have noticed in connection with their attire?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   You testified today that you used to see the person that you

 4    identified as Vasiljevic in Visegrad but that you didn't know who he was

 5    until you saw him in the fire brigade.  Is that correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Did anyone tell you who he was while you were in the fire brigade?

 8       A.   Yes.  All those who knew him told us that, because we were not

 9    that many there.

10       Q.   So it was from other persons who were in the fire brigade that you

11    heard that the person who came to see you with Lukic was Vasiljevic?

12       A.   Yes, that is correct.

13       Q.   You lived in the village of Zlijeb?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   How often, how many times a year, would you go to the town of

16    Visegrad?

17       A.   Not many times.  I went there very rarely, maybe two times a year.

18       Q.   Madam, when, if at all, did you hear about Vasiljevic's arrest and

19    transfer to The Hague?

20       A.   I heard that he had been transferred from the papers.

21       Q.   It was somebody else who showed you the paper?  Because you are

22    illiterate.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Did anyone show you the paper with an article about Vasiljevic's

25    arrest and transfer to The Hague?

Page 1136

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   In that paper that you saw, was there a photograph of him as well?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did you also happen to see the event on TV, either his arrest or

 5    his transfer to The Hague?

 6       A.   Yes, only once, because I don't watch TV very often, but I did see

 7    that once.

 8       Q.   You saw Vasiljevic on TV once when he was already in The Hague?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Do you remember that occasion that you said you saw Vasiljevic?

11       A.   It was after his arrest.

12       Q.   How long after his arrest was it?  Do you remember that?

13       A.   No, I don't.  It was a Saturday.

14       Q.   No, madam, I'm not asking you about the day of the week.  It's

15    very difficult to remember that.  I would just like to know whether this

16    was a month, two months, or three months after his arrest.

17       A.   No.  No.  Maybe one week after that that I saw him.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, it's after 11.00.  We'll go back to the

19    usual timetable.  We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

20                          --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet.

23            MR. DOMAZET:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24       Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, can you describe those two men for us, the

25    ones who were the only ones to come to visit you during the time you were

Page 1137

 1    at the fire brigade, and you said that they were Lukic and Vasiljevic.

 2    Their height, perhaps, their build, and any other characteristic features

 3    that you might have noticed.

 4       A.   Well, you're asking a lot of me.  Lukic was taller, taller than

 5    Vasiljevic.  Vasiljevic seemed to be shorter.  I can't quite describe this

 6    to you.  You know, I was very much afraid.  You know how it is in times

 7    like that.

 8       Q.   Did either of those two people have a moustache or a beard?

 9       A.   Vasiljevic had a moustache.

10       Q.   Did you note any other characteristic traits that could help us on

11    the two men?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   So you only remember that the person you said was -- you named as

14    Vasiljevic had a moustache; is that right?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.  He had a moustache.

16       Q.   When you mentioned Vasiljevic's wife, did you ever meet her or did

17    you only hear about her from others, from other people who told you about

18    her?

19       A.   I would see her around.  We weren't too far away from each other.

20    I used to see her as a young girl, because the village is a small one.

21    But when she married him, I didn't see her any more.

22       Q.   My question was in Visegrad, did you see his wife in Visegrad, and

23    who told you that she was his wife?

24       A.   No.  No.  I didn't see her in Visegrad.  I used to know her and

25    see her around while she was an unmarried young girl, but later on I

Page 1138

 1    didn't.

 2       Q.   Is the village of Kragujevac near your own village, the village in

 3    which you lived?

 4       A.   Yes, it is.

 5       Q.   Can we say that the distance isn't greater than one kilometre?

 6       A.   Yes, thereabouts.  Perhaps a kilometre, yes.

 7       Q.   Did you know the villagers, the natives of that village?

 8       A.   Yes.  I knew them all.

 9       Q.   Did you give any other statement except the statement you gave to

10    the investigator of The Hague Tribunal about these events?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   So the only statement that you made about the events of which you

13    were an eyewitness you gave to the investigator of The Hague Tribunal; is

14    that right?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.

16       Q.   Do you remember when you gave the statement?  Because not much

17    time has gone by since.

18       A.   Yes, not much time has gone by.

19       Q.   Do you remember a part of your statement, the following part of

20    your statement, and is it true and correct when you said that when you

21    were shown an album with 12 photographs, a photo array with 12

22    photographs, that in the statement to the investigator you said the

23    following:

24            "I think that I could recognise --"

25            Just wait for me to finish, please, witness.

Page 1139

 1       A.   I am listening to you.  I'm listening to everything you're saying.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  "I think that I could recognise Mitar Vasiljevic if I

 3    were to see him again.  You have shown me a series of 12 photographs

 4    marked with numbers ranging from 1 to 12.  Picture number 3 seems to me to

 5    be someone I know.  I think he is from Kragujevac, but I do not remember

 6    his name."

 7            Do you remember having given a statement of that kind to the

 8    investigator and when he showed you the photographs?

 9       A.   Yes, I remember.  He had a moustache when he was at the fire

10    brigade and then I couldn't actually -- but I remember seeing him and I

11    remember saying all that.

12       Q.   So you did say that to the investigator of The Hague Tribunal; is

13    that right?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   When you said that you thought the person was from the village of

16    Kragujevac --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   -- did you have in mind a particular person from the village whom

19    you said you knew well, because you said you knew the people from the

20    village very well.

21       A.   Well, no.  I didn't have anyone in mind, but I do know the people

22    from Kragujevac, and I thought, well, perhaps he might have been in

23    Kragujevac.  That's just what came to my mind.  But I can't say that he's

24    from Kragujevac.  I didn't know where he was from when the person who came

25    to the fire brigade.

Page 1140

 1       Q.   Yes, I understand.  But from your statement, it is clear that the

 2    person which you indicated on picture number 3 that you thought you

 3    recognised, you didn't say that it was actually Vasiljevic, whom you

 4    mentioned several times in your statement.  You mention a man with the

 5    surname of Vasiljevic several times in the statement before that.  Is that

 6    right?

 7       A.   Yes, that's right.

 8            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

 9    questions for you, Witness.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Any re-examination, Mr. Groome?

12            MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, madam, very much for giving evidence.

14    We're grateful to you for the evidence you've given.  You are now free to

15    leave.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Whilst we're waiting for the other witness,

19    Mr. Groome, I've seen the memorandum of service in relation to the

20    subpoenas that you sought.  Have you seen them yet?

21            MR. GROOME:  No, I haven't, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  I think that the conditions that they seek to lay

23    down may be a little difficult for the Tribunal to provide, but you better

24    have a look at them, and when you have, we'll discuss them again.

25            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1141

 1   [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2                          [The witness entered court]

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, madam, we want you to take a solemn

 4    declaration.  The court officer there will show you on a card the terms of

 5    the declaration which you should make.

 6                          WITNESS:  WITNESS VG101

 7                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 9    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                          [Witness testifies via videolink].

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, madam.  Sit down, pleas.

12            MR. GROOME:  Mr. Groome.

13            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'd ask that the pseudonym sheet for

14    this witness be placed in front of the witness at this time and I'd ask

15    that it be marked as an exhibit.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  The pseudonym sheet for Witness VG101 will be Exhibit

17    P86 and it will be under seal.

18                          Examined by Mr. Groome:

19       Q.   Good morning, Witness 101.

20       A.   Good morning.

21       Q.   I'd ask you to sit back and relax.  I'm just going to ask you some

22    questions.  I'd ask you to look at the sheet in front of you.  Is that

23    your name on the top line?

24       A.   Yes, it is.

25       Q.   And on the second line, is that your date of birth?

Page 1142

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   For the purposes of concealing your identity, we will refer to you

 3    as Witness 101, and I would ask you, if you need to refer to any of the

 4    other people listed on that sheet, please use their number.  Do you

 5    understand?

 6       A.   Yes.  I've been told that.

 7       Q.   Witness 101, where are you from?

 8       A.   I am from Visegrad.

 9       Q.   And what particular village?

10            THE INTERPRETER:  The last two words from inaudible.

11       A.   Koritnik.

12            MR. GROOME:

13       Q.   And can you tell the Court what your educational background is?

14       A.   A caterer.

15       Q.   And what's the highest level of schooling that you attended?

16       A.   Secondary school, secondary school for catering.

17       Q.   And would you please tell us your ethnicity.

18       A.   A Muslim.

19       Q.   I want to draw your attention back to 1992.  Can you tell us,

20    without mentioning their names, who were you living with at the time in

21    Koritnik?

22       A.   I lived with my sister, my mother, two brothers, and their two

23    children.

24       Q.   I'd ask you to look at your sheet in front of you.  Is the witness

25    number VG78 your sister?

Page 1143

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And did your family operate a small farm?

 3       A.   Yes, they did have one.

 4       Q.   Can you describe for the Court approximately how many houses are

 5    in this village of Koritnik?

 6       A.   About 20.

 7       Q.   And approximately how many people all together lived in the

 8    village of Koritnik?

 9       A.   I can't give you the exact number.  There were quite a few, but

10    not all of us were there at the time we left for Visegrad.

11       Q.   Can you describe for the Court the ethnic mix of the Koritnik

12    community?

13       A.   Yes.  It was a mixed village.  There were Serb houses and Muslim

14    houses as well.

15       Q.   Prior to the spring of 1992, were there any problems between the

16    Muslims and the Serbs living in Koritnik?

17       A.   Well, yes, there were some.

18       Q.   Can you describe what they were?

19       A.   You mean before, at the beginning of the war, or before?

20       Q.   Before the war began, were there problems between the Muslim

21    population and the Serb population of Koritnik?

22       A.   No.  No.  Not before, never.

23       Q.   I want to now draw your attention to the 13th of June, 1992.  Do

24    you recall that day?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1144

 1       Q.   Can you describe what happened on that day?

 2       A.   Yes, I can.  A neighbour from the neighbouring village of Loznica

 3    came.  His name was Radomir Grujic.  And he said we had to leave the

 4    village and that we should come to a place called Greben on the 14th of

 5    June, that a bus would come to us, that we shouldn't be afraid and that

 6    someone of the Muslim nationality would be with us and that we should go

 7    to Kladanj.

 8       Q.   Did you know Radomir Grujic before this day?

 9       A.   Yes, I knew him very well.

10       Q.   And was Mr. Grujic alone or with other people?

11       A.   He came alone.

12       Q.   And did he give you a reason for why you had to leave your

13    village?

14       A.   Well, he said we had to, that the Serbs from the village of

15    Prelovo were exerting pressure on them and that they said that they would

16    search our houses and that they couldn't guarantee our safety if we

17    stayed.

18       Q.   Did Mr. Grujic tell you where you were going to be taken to?

19       A.   Yes, he did.  He said we were being taken to Kladanj, in a convoy,

20    that there would be a number of buses, at least six buses in the convoy,

21    and that we were going to Kladanj.

22       Q.   And at that time was Kladanj considered a town in Muslim

23    territory?

24       A.   Yes.  Yes, it was.

25       Q.   Now, you stated that you were told to go to a place called

Page 1145












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1146

 1    Greben.  Where is Greben in relation to your village, Koritnik?

 2       A.   Well, Greben -- you can reach Greben in a half an hour's walk.  It

 3    is on the road to Visegrad.  That's where the bus station was, in Greben.

 4    It's a half hour's walk.

 5       Q.   And on the 14th of June, did you walk to the village of Greben?

 6       A.   Yes.  We started out from the village early so that we could be in

 7    Greben by 8.00.

 8       Q.   And approximately how many people left the village of Koritnik

 9    that morning on the way to Greben?

10       A.   About 42.  I think that's how many we were.

11       Q.   And can you tell us what was the ethnic mix of this group of 42

12    people that left Koritnik on that day?

13       A.   They were all Muslims.

14       Q.   Was it your understanding that Mr. Grujic's instruction applied to

15    all people of Koritnik or just the Muslims of Koritnik?

16       A.   Just the Muslims.

17       Q.   And when you left the village, did the Serb people of Koritnik

18    remain behind?

19       A.   Yes, they did.

20       Q.   Are you able to tell us approximately what time you set out from

21    Koritnik for the village of Greben?

22       A.   I think we set out at about 7.00 so that we should be there at

23    exactly 8.00, to arrive before the buses did.

24       Q.   And did there come a time when you did arrive at Greben?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1147

 1       Q.   And did you see a bus there?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Had Mr. Grujic said that he would come to Greben as well?

 4       A.   Yes, he did, but he wasn't there.

 5       Q.   How long did you remain in the village of Greben?

 6       A.   I don't know exactly, but we stayed there a long time.

 7       Q.   And did a bus ever come?

 8       A.   No.  No, it didn't.

 9       Q.   Witness 101, I'm going to ask you to describe for the Court if a

10    person were to walk from Koritnik to Visegrad, could you please tell us

11    the villages they would pass through in the order that they would pass

12    through those villages, beginning from Koritnik.

13       A.   Yes, I can do that.  You pass through Srpsko Selo, Koritnik,

14    Greben, Sase, Kosovo Polje, Kalate, and then you come to Visegrad.

15       Q.   I'd ask you to repeat the name of the place above Kosovo Polje.

16       A.   Sase.

17       Q.   Did there come a time when you left the village of Greben?

18       A.   Yes.  We were there for a long time and then a neighbour, a Serb,

19    his name was Milorad, he was from Greben.  I think he was nicknamed

20    Micun.  And he stood around with us for a time and then he said that he

21    didn't dare stand there any more and that we should go, because the buses

22    probably wouldn't arrive.

23       Q.   And did he suggest to you where you should go?

24       A.   To go to Visegrad.

25       Q.   And did you go in the direction of Visegrad?

Page 1148

 1       A.   We were there for a little while longer and then my neighbour,

 2    Ilija Gavrilovic and Radomir Grujic went before us, went to Visegrad ahead

 3    of us, with a relative of mine, and his father, rather.  And then they

 4    came back and they said, "Come on, you Turks.  You come to where you

 5    should go."

 6       Q.   Now, this Radomir Grujic that you're mentioning now, is he the

 7    person who initially told you you had to leave Koritnik?

 8       A.   No.  No.  He was a younger man.  Dragomir.  Dragomir Grujic.  And

 9    Radomir Djuric.  Radomir Djuric told us we had to leave the village, and

10    this was Dragomir Grujic.  They were two different people.

11       Q.   What was the ethnicity of this second person that you're

12    mentioning now, Dragomir?

13       A.   He's a Serb, but he lived in Dalmacija for a time, so that's why

14    he came to visit his father.  His parents were divorced, so he lived for a

15    time with his mother in Dalmacija and then he came to live with his

16    father in Koritnik.

17       Q.   You've also mentioned the name Ilija Gavrilovic.  What was his

18    ethnicity?

19       A.   Also a Serb.

20       Q.   And can you tell us precisely what did these two men do in

21    relation to the group of people from Koritnik?

22       A.   I'm sorry.  I don't understand what you mean.

23       Q.   What exactly did these two men do when they met with the group of

24    Koritnik -- the group of people from Koritnik?

25       A.   They got out of the car and said, "You Turks all go to where you

Page 1149

 1    have to go."  Then they switched on the motor and went to Koritnik again.

 2       Q.   Did you recognise the car that these two men were driving?

 3       A.   Yes, I did.

 4       Q.   And whose car did you recognise it to be?

 5       A.   It was a car belonging to one of my relatives from the village.

 6    It was a red --

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't catch the name of the car.

 8       A.   Volkswagen.  A red Volkswagen.

 9            MR. GROOME:

10       Q.   I'm going to ask you to describe:  The group from Koritnik, can

11    you describe what the composition of the group was as far as the age of

12    the group and whether they were men and women?

13       A.   There were both men and women there, young women, girls,

14    children.  There was even a three-day-old baby.

15       Q.   Do you know whose baby that was?

16       A.   It was the baby from a woman from the village.

17       Q.   Do you know her name?  Do you recall her name?

18       A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.  Her name was Sadeta.

19       Q.   Now, the group from Koritnik, were they carrying anything as they

20    walked?

21       A.   Yes.  We had a lot of things with us, and that's why we were

22    slow.  We couldn't move on very fast.

23       Q.   Can you describe what types of things the people were carrying and

24    how they carried them?

25       A.   Well, mostly we had our clothes and our suitcases.  Some people

Page 1150

 1    carried other things as well, like dishes and stuff like that.

 2       Q.   At the time you left Koritnik, did you believe that you would ever

 3    return to Koritnik?

 4       A.   Yes.  That's what our neighbours guaranteed to us, the neighbours

 5    who came to us.  They said that they would look after our belongings and

 6    that they would be back very soon.

 7       Q.   Did you ever learn why it was that the bus never came to the

 8    village of Greben?

 9       A.   When we arrived in the village of --

10            THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't hear the name?

11       A.   -- a Serb from the village of Kalate told us that the bus had

12    indeed started but that it broke down somewhere near Banja, so it was not

13    possible for the bus to reach us.  It was out of order.

14            MR. GROOME:

15       Q.   I'd ask you to repeat the name of the village that you said at the

16    beginning of your answer.  The interpreters missed it.

17       A.   Haluge.

18       Q.   Now, as you left Greben, what would be the next village that you

19    would come to on the way down?

20       A.   Sase.

21       Q.   On the way down to Sase did you ever see any buses on the road?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   How long did it take you to go from Greben to Sase?

24       A.   It's nearby, maybe a half hour on foot.

25       Q.   What did you do when you arrived in Sase?

Page 1151

 1       A.   We stayed there for quite some time and then Spahic, this Serb

 2    man, told us that we should go to Visegrad as soon as possible, that he

 3    would go ahead of us to guarantee our safety in a car.  So he left

 4    sometime before we did, but we never saw him again

 5       Q.   Now, when you left Sase, did any other people join this group?

 6       A.   Yes, from the village of Sase.

 7       Q.   And approximately how many people from the village of Sase joined

 8    the group?

 9       A.   Five.  Five new people came.

10       Q.   Are you able to approximate the time of day that it is when you

11    leave Sase for Visegrad?

12       A.   No.  I don't remember the exact time.  But we stayed there for

13    quite a while.  That is where we stayed longest, in Greben and in Sase.

14       Q.   Now, walking from Sase to Visegrad, would you have passed through

15    the village of Kosovo Polje?  Did you hear my question?

16       A.   No.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  There was a break in the transmission.  You could see

18    it.

19            MR. GROOME:

20       Q.   As you walked from Sase to Visegrad, did you pass through the

21    village of Kosovo Polje?

22       A.   Yes, we did.

23       Q.   On your way down to Visegrad, did you at any time see a bus on the

24    road that you were walking on?

25       A.   A bus from Centrotrans carrying a large number of people probably

Page 1152

 1    from the village of Vlahovici passed us on the way.

 2       Q.   And when you say "Centrotrans," is that the name of a bus company?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes, a bus company, a transport company.

 4       Q.   Did you recognise anybody on this bus?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did you later learn that there was a person from Koritnik on this

 7    bus?

 8       A.   Yes.  She stayed behind after we left.  She was quite old.  She

 9    couldn't leave.  Then they put her on the bus and she was on this bus.

10       Q.   And did you also learn where she was brought on that bus?

11       A.   Yes.  She was first in Kladanj, then in Visoko, later on in

12    Sarajevo, and she died two years ago of natural causes, in Sarajevo.

13       Q.   Now, did there come a time when this group did eventually reach

14    Visegrad?

15       A.   Yes.  I don't know exactly what time it was, but we did reach

16    Visegrad.

17       Q.   And where was the first place that you went in Visegrad when you

18    got to the town?

19       A.   As we entered the town, we were met by some Serb policemen who

20    were standing in front of the SUP building.  They were shouting at us.

21    And they told us to continue down the street towards the new hotel.

22       Q.   And by the SUP building, do you mean the police headquarters?

23       A.   Yes.  Yes.  The police were there.

24       Q.   Did the entire group go with you to the police headquarters?

25       A.   No.  We didn't actually go to the SUP.  We went to the new hotel,

Page 1153

 1    to the area outside the new hotel.

 2       Q.   And did the entire group go to this area?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4       Q.   Where is the new hotel in relation to the old bridge?

 5       A.   It is next to the old bridge.

 6       Q.   And do you know the name of this new hotel?

 7       A.   That's how it was referred to, the new hotel, Novi Hotel.

 8       Q.   And can you describe to us precisely where you were in relation in

 9    to the hotel?

10       A.   In front of the hotel, at the entrance to the hotel.

11       Q.   And would you describe for the Court what is in the front of the

12    hotel?

13       A.   There was a taxi stand opposite the entrance of the hotel, and we

14    were standing there, between the taxi stand and the hotel.  We stayed

15    there for a while and after some time we moved to the garden of the hotel.

16       Q.   And where is the garden of the hotel?

17       A.   Near the bridge.

18       Q.   Can you describe, aside from this group -- I'm sorry.  I

19    interrupted you.  Do you want to repeat your answer?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Aside from the group from Koritnik and from Sase, were there other

22    people on the street at that time?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Did something happen while you were standing by the hotel?

25       A.   We were lined up there, two by two.  They singled out three or

Page 1154

 1    four men and told them to go to a nearby village, and they were told that

 2    some people were killed there and their bodies had to be buried, that they

 3    were Muslims.

 4       Q.   Would you describe who you're referring to when you say "they"?

 5       A.   Those police officers, the ones who had lined us up.  They

 6    selected some men and told them to go to the village of Nezvci, where

 7    there were some killed Muslims whose bodies had to be buried.

 8       Q.   How many policemen were present at that time, approximately?

 9       A.   Three or four.

10       Q.   And how were they dressed?

11       A.   They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

12       Q.   Aside from these -- these policemen, do you know what their

13    ethnicity was?

14       A.   Yes, I know.

15       Q.   What was it?

16       A.   They were Serbs.

17       Q.   Were there other people of Serb ethnicity in the area where you

18    were in front of the hotel?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Approximately how many?

21       A.   I don't know exactly how many, but there were a lot of people

22    there who were coming in and out of this hotel.

23       Q.   Were any of these people armed with weapons?

24       A.   Yes.  All of them were armed.

25       Q.   And can you describe generally the dress of these people?

Page 1155

 1       A.   Some wore camouflage uniforms and some wore the former JNA

 2    uniforms.

 3       Q.   Did there come a time when somebody arrived in a car?

 4       A.   Yes.  While we were standing in that garden we were being verbally

 5    abused and mistreated.  They argued about where we should be sent to.

 6    Then a car came and stopped near the garden and Mitar Vasiljevic came out

 7    of the car and he told them to release us, to let us go, and that we

 8    should go to Pionirska Street, where there were some empty houses, to

 9    Mahala.

10       Q.   Was this person you're referring to as Mitar Vasiljevic alone or

11    with other people in the car?

12       A.   I only saw him.

13       Q.   And had you seen this person at other times?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   I'd ask you to describe for the Court how it was you knew this

16    person.

17       A.   I didn't know him personally, but I knew him by sight.  When I was

18    a child, when I was in the elementary school, people knew Mitar as an

19    alcoholic, and that is how we children used to see him.  He would pass

20    by.  But then there were many other people who knew him very well while he

21    was working as a waiter in Visegrad, so I knew that it was him.

22       Q.   You said that you first knew of him in elementary school.  Are you

23    able to approximate for us approximately how many years you knew him at

24    the time that you saw him this day in 1992?

25    A.   Many years, because we went to school in Prelovo and he's from the

Page 1156

 1  area of Prelovo, from a village whose name I don't know.  So he would pass

 2    by.  He would pass through Prelovo and we would see him when we went to

 3    school.

 4       Q.   Did you recognise him immediately on this day?

 5       A.   Yes, I did.

 6       Q.   Did there come a time in March of this year that you were asked to

 7    view a set of photographs by an investigator of the Office of the

 8    Prosecutor?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And did you recognise any of those photographs?

11       A.   Yes, I recognised Mitar Vasiljevic.

12            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm going to ask that we go into private

13    session briefly to -- I'd ask that that exhibit be placed on the ELMO.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  We'll go into private session.

15                          [Private session]

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1157

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                          [Open session]

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

15            MR. GROOME:

16       Q.   Witness 101, I would ask you to describe as best you remember what

17    was this person, what was Mitar Vasiljevic wearing on this day?

18       A.   He was wearing a former Yugoslav People's Army uniform and a large

19    black hat on his head and a black raincoat.

20       Q.   Was there anything covering or disguising his face?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   I'd ask you to tell us again what it was he said, but please use

23    the words that he said as precisely as you're able.

24       A.   He said that we should go to the Mahala settlement, to Pionirska

25    Street, to abandoned Muslim houses.

Page 1158

 1  Q.   You mentioned earlier that some of the people, other people in the

 2    area, were shouting insults to the group.  I'd ask you to describe what it

 3    was that they said.

 4       A.   They called us balijas.  They cursed us, mentioning Alija, our

 5    state, telling us where are now Murat and Avdija to defend you.

 6       Q.   Were there Serb police officers present at this time?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And were there paramilitaries there as well?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   I'd ask you to describe as best you're able the car that Mitar

11    Vasiljevic arrived in in front of the hotel.

12       A.   No.  I don't know what car it was.  I didn't see the car.

13       Q.   This place that Mr. Vasiljevic instructed you to go, were you

14    familiar with this area?

15       A.   Yes.  Yes, I am.

16       Q.   And how are you familiar with this area?

17       A.   I knew the area because my relatives lived there.  They had houses

18    there.

19       Q.   And how frequently would you visit this area?

20       A.   Not very often.

21       Q.   Did there come a time when you left the new hotel and went in the

22    direction of Pionirska Street?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Approximately how much time transpired between the time

25    Mr. Vasiljevic instructed you to go to Pionirska Street and the time you

Page 1159

 1    actually left?

 2       A.   We left immediately.

 3       Q.   Did Mr. Vasiljevic say anything else to you regarding going to

 4    Pionirska Street at that time?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did the entire group go to Pionirska Street?

 7       A.   Yes, they did.

 8       Q.   And can you approximate the distance for the Court between the New

 9    Hotel and Pionirska Street?

10       A.   I don't know exactly, but it took us about 15 minutes to get there

11    on foot.

12       Q.   Would it be fair to say that the group was still carrying its bags

13    and belongings that it had carried from Koritnik?

14       A.   Yes.  Yes, we still had everything with us.

15       Q.   Where is the first place that you went -- I'll withdraw that.

16    When you arrived at Pionirska Street, where is the first place that you

17    went?

18       A.   We stood on the street for a while.  We didn't know where to go.

19    While we were standing there, Mitar came to us.  There were quite a few of

20    us.  We needed maybe two or three houses.  But he rounded us up and he

21    told us to go to one and single house and to be there, all of us.

22       Q.   And how did he arrive at that time?

23       A.   By car.  He came immediately after us.

24       Q.   And can you tell us, using the words that he used, what it was he

25    said to you and the group?

Page 1160

 1       A.   Yes, I remember.  He said that we should go to Kladanj, that we

 2    could no longer live together and that once in Kladanj we should select

 3    the houses as the houses in our area and that we -- that it would take us

 4    six hours to get to Kladanj, that no one would harm us, and he gave some

 5    kind of certificate for our safety to one of the men, that should we --

 6    should the police control us, that we should show them our identity cards

 7    and that we should not be afraid, that nobody would do us any harm.

 8       Q.   Did he direct you to a specific house on Pionirska Street?

 9       A.   Yes, he did.  He told us to enter one particular house there.

10       Q.   And do you know the name of the owner of that house?

11       A.   No.  I think that his name was Ragib, but I didn't know the

12    person.

13       Q.   Are you familiar with the school on Pionirska Street?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Can you describe where the house was that you were directed to go

16    to in relation to the school on Pionirska Street?

17       A.   The school was on the right and the house was further down, on the

18    left side, almost at the very beginning of the street, Pionirska Street.

19       Q.   Now, did you go to the house that you were directed to go to?

20       A.   Yes.  We all entered the house.

21       Q.   You testified a moment ago about Mr. Vasiljevic giving somebody a

22    piece of paper.  Were you present when that occurred?

23       A.   Yes.  Yes, I was.  We were all standing around him.  He was in the

24    middle and he told us to come closer, that he had something to tell us.

25    So we were standing around him.  And I saw that he gave someone a piece of

Page 1161

 1    paper, but I don't know what was written on the paper.

 2       Q.   Do you know the name of the person who he gave that piece of paper

 3    to?

 4       A.   I can't remember his name.  To one of the men.

 5       Q.   And again, using the words that Mr. Vasiljevic used, what did he

 6    say when he handed that piece of paper to the person?

 7       A.   He said that when the police came, we should show them the piece

 8    of paper that he, Mitar, had given us.  He said, "Just show this piece of

 9    paper to the police and nobody would do you any harm."

10       Q.   Did you go inside that house?

11       A.   Yes, we did.

12       Q.   Was there anybody in the house when you entered it?

13       A.   No, nobody.  Nobody was inside.

14       Q.   Was the door locked when you entered the house?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   What was the first thing that you did when you went into the

17    house?

18       A.   We went inside.  There were a lot of us.  We divided ourselves up

19    into three rooms and all sat there.  It was raining, so we were wet.  Some

20    people changed their clothes, but we sat around in the house mostly.

21            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm about to move into an entirely

22    different area.  It might be an appropriate place to break.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Why?

24            MR. GROOME:  Okay.  I'll keep going.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  We've only been going for an hour.  We've got another

Page 1162












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1163

 1    half hour to go.

 2            MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry.  I thought we were breaking at 12.30.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  I don't know why.

 4            MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry.

 5       Q.   Did there come a time when you went to check on your relatives

 6    that lived in the Pionirska Street area?

 7       A.   Not me, but two neighbours, female neighbours, VG013 and another

 8    woman with her.  They went to their relations' house (redacted)

 9   (redacted)  They found them killed in that house.

10       Q.   Did you know this couple, this (redacted) ?

11       A.   Yes.  They lived in Koritnik, but they had left when the war

12    began.  They went to stay with their sons in Pionirska Street, in his

13    house there.

14       Q.   And approximately what age was this couple?

15       A.   They were almost 60.

16       Q.   And did the two people that you've described as having going up,

17    did they describe the condition of these two people when they returned?

18       A.   Yes.  They said that they had been killed.  The man was living [As

19    interpreted] on the sofa and the woman was lying in front of the fire.

20    But they had both been killed.

21       Q.   Were they able to tell whether they had been killed that day or at

22    an earlier time?

23       A.   Probably earlier on, and they had probably been lying there for

24    quite a number of days.

25       Q.   Now, returning to the house that you went into, did Mr. Vasiljevic

Page 1164

 1    remain at that house at that time?

 2       A.   No.  He left.

 3       Q.   Approximately how long was he there at this time?

 4       A.   I didn't understand the question.

 5       Q.   From the time that he arrived on Pionirska Street this first time,

 6    approximately how long did he remain there?

 7       A.   A short time.  He told us to accommodate ourselves in the house

 8    and then he left shortly afterwards.

 9       Q.   Did there come a time later in the day when other people arrived

10    at the house?

11       A.   Yes, they did.  Milan Lukic came later on and three men with him,

12    but I wasn't able to recognise the others.  I recognised Lukic very well.

13    I knew him.

14       Q.   Can you describe for the Court how you knew Milan Lukic?

15       A.   I knew him because we went to primary school together and

16    secondary school.  He was just one year older than me, in an older form,

17    so I knew him very well.

18       Q.   Now, how many other men were there aside from Milan Lukic?

19       A.   Three more men.

20       Q.   I'd ask you as best you're able to describe each of these men.

21       A.   There was one man with a moustache, curly hair.  The second one

22    was a fair, tall one.  And the third one was the youngest of them.

23       Q.   Are you able to approximate his age?

24       A.   Perhaps 19 or 20.  He was quite a bit older than the other two.

25       Q.   And were these men armed?

Page 1165

 1       A.   Yes, they were, all of them.

 2       Q.   Can you tell us what happened at that time?

 3       A.   While we were there, they stormed into the room, Milan Lukic

 4    first.  They bashed in the door with their feet.  They said, "Your money,

 5    your gold, all on the table.  If we find anybody hiding them, these

 6    objects, they will be killed."  So we gave up all the gold and money we

 7    had.  Then the other man with the moustache said that we had to go into

 8    the next room with him, to be searched, that he would search us to see if

 9    somebody had kept anything back and kept something hidden in a pocket,

10    and if he found anything on somebody that they would be killed.  He said

11    that kind of thing.  And he said, "If we find anything like that in the

12    house, we would be to blame."  So they looted everything off us.  They

13    took everything that we had.

14       Q.   Did they go through the bags that you had carried with you?

15       A.   Yes, they did.  They looked through everything.

16       Q.   Did there come a time when the people in the house were forced to

17    take their clothing off to be searched?

18       A.   Yes, they were, so that they could see that we hadn't hidden

19    anything anywhere, sewn it into a pocket or anything like that.  We had to

20    take our clothes off so that they could see whether there was anything

21    left on us, hidden.

22       Q.   I would ask you to -- well, were any people taken out of the house

23    at this time?

24       A.   Yes, they were, two women.

25       Q.   Without telling us their names, did you speak -- did there come a

Page 1166

 1    time when these women returned to the house?

 2       A.   Yes, they did.

 3       Q.   Did you speak with one of these women?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.

 5       Q.   And what did she tell you about what happened when she was out of

 6    that house?

 7       A.   She told me that they had raped her and that they had told her

 8    that not only she would end up like this, but all the rest of us too, and

 9    that had she not done something, this wouldn't have happened to her.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't understand the word the witness used,

11    had she done something.

12            MR. GROOME:

13       Q.   I'd ask you to repeat the last part of your answer, please.

14       A.   He said -- she said that she had been raped, and they told her

15    that not only she would be raped but that our turn would come, for all of

16    us, that we would all be raped.  And why didn't she disguise herself or

17    put something on her face, some colouring on her face so that she would

18    not be raped had she disguised herself.  The second victim didn't tell me

19    anything.  Lukic took her out.  And he said, "Look, look.  Where were you

20    at half past 2.00?"  He put his arm around her and took her out of the

21    house.

22       Q.   And did he return with her?

23       A.   Yes.  She came back.  She lay down.  She was crying, but she

24    didn't tell me anything.

25       Q.   And approximately how long was this woman out of the house?

Page 1167

 1       A.   I don't know exactly, but she did stay.  And they took out another

 2    woman, but the child was crying, so they took it back from the staircase.

 3       Q.   After the people in the house were searched, did any of the people

 4    have watches at that time, after the search?

 5       A.   I think that the people who had watches, they took from them.  I'm

 6    not sure they did, because we didn't know what the time was, actually.  We

 7    didn't know what the time was.  I don't remember that anybody had a watch.

 8       Q.   Did there come a time when Mr. Lukic and these other three men

 9    left the house now?

10       A.   Yes.  When they did that, when they collected up everything and

11    left, the first one sitting next to the door, they said that nobody must

12    leave the house, that they were going to have some meat on the spit

13    somewhere and that they would return.  They were going to have something

14    to eat.

15       Q.   And by "meat on the spit," did they mean roasted meat?

16       A.   Yes.  Yes, that's it.

17       Q.   Are you able to approximate for us how long Mr. Lukic and the

18    three other men were in the house at this time?

19       A.   I don't know exactly, but they were there a long time while they

20    looted everything, because there were quite a lot of us, so they had to

21    search us all and it took a long time to collect up all the things.  And

22    it was dusk when they left.

23       Q.   Are you able to approximate the time that elapsed between the time

24    Mitar Vasiljevic left the house and Milan Lukic arrived at the house?

25       A.   Not long.  Perhaps an hour, maybe even less.  They came quickly,

Page 1168

 1    quickly after Mitar.

 2       Q.   Did there come a time later on this day that some of these men

 3    returned?

 4       A.   You mean the Serbs?

 5       Q.   Yes.

 6       A.   Yes.  They returned that evening.  I don't know exactly what time

 7    it was, but they came back to transfer us from that house to another

 8    house, allegedly.

 9       Q.   And who was it that returned?

10       A.   The same Chetniks who were there before:  Lukic, Mitar, the man

11    with the moustache, tall, fair.  The same Chetniks who were there the

12    first time.

13       Q.   And which member of this group spoke to the group inside the

14    house?

15       A.   They came in front of the window with a car and used a big

16    flashlight to flash the door and window, and the first people sitting next

17    to the door were told that we should move from that big house to another

18    big house, that we needn't take our belongings with us because we wouldn't

19    be needing them.  They even said, "You needn't take your footwear either.

20    Just move into the other house."

21       Q.   The house -- the first house that you were in, were there lights

22    on at this time in that house?

23       A.   No.  It was dark.

24       Q.   Are you familiar with the creek that runs in the area of Pionirska

25    Street?

Page 1169

 1       A.   Yes, I am.

 2       Q.   Can you describe where this second house is in relation to that

 3    creek?

 4       A.   Right by the creek.

 5       Q.   When you saw Milan Lukic at this time, can you describe precisely

 6    where he was in relation to the house?

 7       A.   He was at the place where there was some light, where the light

 8    was.

 9       Q.   And where was that light?  Can you tell us where was that light?

10       A.   It was nearby, in front of the house, by the creek.

11       Q.   In addition to that light that you're describing now, were there

12    other sources of light at that time?

13       A.   Yes.  They had large flashlights which they used to light up the

14    place.  When they came out of the house, they were able to see by the

15    light of the flashlight.

16       Q.   Where was Mr. Vasiljevic the first time you saw him at this

17    night-time?  Where was he the first time you saw him?

18       A.   In front of the door of the big house where we were put up.

19       Q.   That's the house that is --

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome, just to avoid any suggestion later that

21    you haven't done this properly, previously, at page 54, line 9, if you can

22    get that on the screen, you'll see how she described the people who came

23    back.

24            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Bearing in mind that there is some issue in this case

Page 1170

 1    about somebody else with a similar name, I think it would be preferable

 2    before we go any further that you sorted that one out.

 3            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   I would ask you to, once again, tell us the identity of the people

 5    who arrived at night, using their first and last name.

 6       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan Lukic.  I didn't know the others, their

 7    names.

 8       Q.   And again, where was Mitar Vasiljevic the first time you saw him

 9    at this time?

10       A.   In front of the door.

11       Q.   And is this the house on Pionirska Street or the house by the

12    creek?

13       A.   In Pionirska Street, where the house he put us in.

14       Q.   And was there anything covering his face or disguising his face at

15    this time?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   And approximately how far away were you from him?

18       A.   Nearby.  I had to go out, face to face, when you go out of the

19    house.

20       Q.   Could you have touched him if you wanted to?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Now, can you describe for us what was the approximate distance

23    between the first house you were in and the second house that you were

24    directed to enter?

25       A.   Well, 50 metres, something like that.

Page 1171

 1       Q.   And can you describe for us how the group moved from one house to

 2    the other?

 3       A.   I don't know exactly how they went out, who was the first.

 4    Someone wanted to pick up some things, others -- how many went out, I

 5    don't know exactly.

 6       Q.   Did the people inside the house move as a group or individually?

 7       A.   One by one, sometimes two.

 8       Q.   Was your sister with you at this time?

 9       A.   Yes, she was.

10       Q.   And had your sister been in the first house you were placed in

11    earlier in the day?

12       A.   Yes.  We were all together.

13       Q.   Did you walk down towards that second house by the creek?

14       A.   Yes, I did.

15       Q.   And walking down towards that house, can you describe who, if any,

16    of these men you saw again?

17       A.   Yes.  I saw a man with a moustache, and Mitar, fair and tall, and

18    Milan Lukic.

19       Q.   And would you tell us the last name of the person you're referring

20    to as Mitar?

21       A.   Vasiljevic.

22       Q.   And just to avoid confusion, I'd ask you to always refer to both

23    his first and last name when you refer to him, please.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  The reference there to "fair and tall," I think

25    that's to the man with the moustache, but I think you had better clear

Page 1172

 1    that one up.

 2            MR. GROOME:

 3       Q.   You've referred to somebody --

 4       A.   No.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  That's why you had better clear it up, I think.

 6            MR. GROOME:

 7       Q.   The person you're describing as fair and tall, did that person

 8    have a moustache?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   So you're describing two people when you say "fair and tall" and

11    "a person with a moustache," is that correct?

12       A.   The man with the moustache had curly dark hair and this other man

13    was tall, with no moustache, and he was fair, had fair or blond hair.

14       Q.   And I would ask you to describe precisely where Mr. Mitar

15    Vasiljevic was standing this time when you see him.

16       A.   In front of the door.

17       Q.   The door --

18       A.   Of the house.

19       Q.   Is this -- can you describe which house you're referring to now?

20       A.   Where we were put up, the big house.

21       Q.   Did there come a time when you saw him at another location that

22    night?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Where was he at this time?

25       A.   The place where the light was.

Page 1173

 1       Q.   And where were you at the time that you saw him at the place where

 2    the light was?

 3       A.   I fled behind a shed.

 4       Q.   Approximately how far were you from him at the time you saw him

 5    under the light or by the light?

 6       A.   Fifteen or twenty steps, perhaps.

 7       Q.   And I'd ask you to describe how you fled.

 8       A.   As we were coming out of the house, as the victim had told me, the

 9    one that was raped, that they had told her that when they come

10    back, we would all fare the same way, I thought they had come back to do

11    the same, and I never, ever thought they would kill us all like that.  So

12    I decided to flee and let them kill me.  I didn't know -- I wasn't sure

13    whether I would succeed in escaping or not, but I decided to try, just to

14    avoid falling into their hands.  I wasn't afraid of dying; I was afraid of

15    being raped.

16       Q.   Where was your sister at this time?

17       A.   My sister was right behind me, behind my back.  I threw myself

18    behind the shed.  She came right behind me.  I heard her.  But I was

19    afraid they might notice me.  They could have captured us again.  We

20    jumped behind a shed and we were there in the creek for a brief period of

21    time, perhaps five or ten minutes, and then we escaped down the creek into

22    the woods.

23       Q.   Before you fled, were you able to see some of the group from

24    Koritnik actually enter into this house by the creek?

25       A.   No, I couldn't see the house.  I only saw that area where the

Page 1174

 1    light was and where they were standing, whereas the entrance to the house

 2    and the house, I couldn't see.

 3       Q.   And can you describe for us where is this shed in relation to the

 4    house by the creek?

 5       A.   To the left, on the left-hand side.

 6       Q.   And approximately how far away?

 7       A.   I can't say exactly, because I didn't approach the house.  I don't

 8    know how far it was.

 9       Q.   And are you able to approximate how far the shed was from the big

10    house, the house that you first stayed in?

11       A.   Yes.  It was a very brief distance, a short way between the big

12    house and the shed.  I don't know.  Let me say -- well, perhaps -- I can't

13    remember exactly, but it was nearby.

14       Q.   How long did you remain behind that shed?

15       A.   Not long, because I was afraid that they hadn't noticed me.  And

16    we stayed there perhaps for ten minutes.  We didn't know where to flee.

17    Wherever we went, they were.  We weren't able to pass through Visegrad.

18    We didn't know where to go, which way we could go, so we went down the

19    creek into the water.

20       Q.   And when you went into the creek, can you describe which direction

21    you went on the creek?

22       A.   We went towards -- in the direction of the creek.  We went down

23    the creek.  We went along the creek, straight along the creek.  Because it

24    was dark, it was raining, we couldn't orient ourselves, orientate

25    ourselves.

Page 1175

 1       Q.   As you were walking down the creek, did you hear anything?

 2       A.   When we got out of the creek, we went into the woods.  The only

 3    important thing was to escape, to go into the woods as far as possible.

 4    We heard shots coming from the direction of that house, from the house by

 5    the creek.

 6       Q.   And are you able to approximate for us how long you heard these

 7    shots?

 8       A.   Well, we could hear them while we were fleeing, and we thought

 9    that where the light was, as they were coming out of the big

10    house -- because I could hear the shooting, I thought that they were

11    killing them as they were coming out of the house one by one, and I

12    thought that they were killing them there and then, where the light was,

13    where this lighted space was.

14       Q.   From where you are at this point, are you able to see either the

15    house by the creek or the shed?

16       A.   No.  No, I wasn't able to see anything.

17       Q.   Did you hear anything else other than the shots being fired?

18       A.   No.  We just heard the shots.

19       Q.   And were you at some point able to escape to a safe place?

20       A.   We roamed around the forest, the woods, the whole night.  We

21    didn't nowhere to go.  We didn't know the area.  We just went on ahead to

22    escape, to go as far into the woods as possible, because the woods were

23    the safest place for us at that time.  We thought we would be able to hide

24    in the woods.

25            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, may I suggest we break there?

Page 1176

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Certainly.  2.30 we'll resume.  We'll adjourn now.

 2                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
























Page 1177

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.28 p.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 3            MR. GROOME:

 4       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness 101.

 5       A.   Good afternoon.

 6       Q.   I want to take you back to the time that you and the other people

 7    are in the big house, the first house that you went into, and I want to

 8    ask you the following questions:  At that time, did anyone other than the

 9    people you've mentioned here today come to that house or enter that

10    house?  Were you able to hear me?

11       A.   Yes.  Yes, I can hear you, but I don't ...

12       Q.   Let me repeat the question, then.  I'm referring to the big house,

13    the first house that you went to that day.  Other than the people that you

14    have described for us here in your testimony, did anybody else come to

15    that house or enter that house on that day?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   The front door of this house, or the entrance door to that house,

18    can you describe precisely for the Chamber where it's located on the

19    house?

20       A.   The door was somewhere in the middle.

21            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear the witness, I'm

22    afraid.

23            MR. GROOME:

24       Q.   I'd ask you to repeat your answer.  The interpreters are having

25    difficulty hearing you?

Page 1178

 1       A.   The door was situated somewhere at the beginning, at the front of

 2    the house.  I know that we went upstairs, that there is a staircase in the

 3    house.  There is a staircase.

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness didn't say "in the house."

 5            MR. GROOME:

 6       Q.   Is the entrance door on the side of the house facing Pionirska

 7    Street?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Of the group that you were with, were all of the people inside the

10    house or were some people outside the house during the time in the

11    afternoon?

12       A.   There was a woman in the second house next to ours, and then in

13    the house next to that one, there was a family consisting of three

14    members, two women and one child.

15       Q.   My question is:  Of the group of people you were with, were any of

16    those people outside of the house at the time Milan Lukic arrived at the

17    house?  Can you hear me?

18       A.   Yes, I can.

19       Q.   Let me repeat the question.  At the time Milan Lukic came to the

20    house the first time, were any of the members of the group of people from

21    Koritnik and some from Sase, were any of those people outside of the

22    house?

23       A.   Yes.  The people who lived there on Pionirska Street.  In one of

24    the houses there was one woman and in another house there was my relative,

25    who married there, in Mahala, together with her mother-in-law and her

Page 1179












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1180

 1    child.

 2       Q.   Aside from the people who lived there, I'm just asking you to tell

 3    us about the people, the group of people who you were with, who you

 4    travelled to that street with earlier in the day.  Of those people, were

 5    any of those people outside of the big house?

 6       A.   We were all there.

 7       Q.   Were you all inside the house?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Thank you.

10            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I'm going to ask that the

11    Exhibit P17.3 be placed on the ELMO in Sarajevo.  I'm going to ask for the

12    purposes of this witness that this copy of that exhibit be marked

13    P17.3.101.

14       Q.   Witness 101, I'm going to ask you to make some markings on this

15    photograph and I'm going to ask you, to begin with, to take the pen that's

16    there and to write the number "101" at the bottom of the photograph, on

17    the white portion of the photograph.

18       A.   To the right.

19       Q.   Right in the centre of the bottom of the photograph, on the white

20    portion, please.

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   I'm going to ask you to help orient us and yourself by writing

23    "Pionirska" on the street, if you can see Pionirska Street in this

24    photograph.

25       A.   [Marks]

Page 1181

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Next I'm going to ask you to draw a line to indicate

 2    where the creek ran and write the word "creek" or" pottok" to indicate

 3    that?

 4       A.   [Marks]

 5       Q.   I'd ask you to trace it so it leaves a mark on the photograph.

 6       A.   [Marks]

 7       Q.   And please write the word "creek."

 8       A.   [Marks]

 9       Q.   If that pen is not working, I'd ask for some assistance for the

10    witness?

11            JUDGE HUNT:  A Biro might help.

12            MR. GROOME:  Could we please just check with the court deputy that

13    it has left a permanent mark that we will be able to see if the exhibit is

14    returned.

15            UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  This is.

16            MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

17       Q.   Now, Witness 101, I'd like you to draw a circle and in that circle

18    write "MV-1" to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was the first time you saw

19    him on Pionirska Street that day.

20       A.   [Marks]

21       Q.   I'd ask you to put the number "1" on the house which you've

22    referred to as "the big house," the first house you went to on Pionirska

23    Street.  Put a number "1" on the roof of that house.

24       A.   [Marks]

25       Q.   I'd ask you to put the number "2" on the house that you've

Page 1182

 1    referred to as the house by the creek, the house that people were led to

 2    at the night-time.

 3       A.   [Marks]

 4       Q.   And finally, I would ask you to put the number "3" on the roof of

 5    the shed that you've referred to, the shed that you hid behind.

 6       A.   [Marks]

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Now, you've marked "MV-1" to indicate where

 8    Mr. Vasiljevic was the first time you saw him.  I would ask you to put the

 9    number "101" to indicate where you were at the time you observed him.

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   And I'd ask you to draw a line between the two.

12       A.   [Marks]

13       Q.   Now, you mentioned seeing him a second time in the evening.  I

14    would do you put a circle and "MV-2" to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was

15    the second time you saw him.

16       A.   [Marks]

17       Q.   And again, would you please put the number "101" to indicate where

18    you were.

19       A.   [Marks]

20       Q.   And would you connect those two with a line.

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   And then you've mentioned a third time that you saw

23    Mr. Vasiljevic.  I would ask you to draw a circle inside it to put "MV-3"

24    to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was at this time.

25       A.   [Marks]

Page 1183

 1       Q.   And once again, if you would please put "101" to indicate where

 2    you were at the time you saw him.

 3       A.   [Marks]

 4       Q.   And if you would please connect those two with a line.

 5       A.   [Marks]

 6       Q.   Now, in your testimony you mentioned that there was a light.  I

 7    would ask you to put a circle to approximate the location of that light

 8    and put the letter "S," the first letter in the Bosnian word for "light"

 9    in that circle.

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   And can you draw an arrow to indicate in which direction that

12    light was shining?

13       A.   [Marks]

14       Q.   And finally, you've just testified about the location of the

15    door.  I would ask you to please draw an arrow to indicate the side of the

16    house on which the door was located, the entrance door of the house was

17    located.

18       A.   [Marks]

19       Q.   Thank you, Witness 101.  Those are all the marks I'll ask you to

20    make on this exhibit.  Please return to your seat and we can take that off

21    the ELMO at this time?

22            MR. GROOME:  At this time, Your Honour, I would --

23            JUDGE HUNT:  I hesitate to suggest that it could have some further

24    markings, but there seems to be some confusion between at least some of

25    the witnesses as to which were the two houses in which the women were

Page 1184

 1    first placed.  We've got Witness 77 put the initials JM on one house; the

 2    investigator put a box around two other houses, and it seems to me that

 3    either we agree, everybody agrees upon one or other of those houses as

 4    being owned by that family or we have to have some extra evidence about

 5    it.

 6            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour I think inevitably, there will be

 7    inconsistencies about which houses, so I think we have to rely on the

 8    witness' memory.  I think in our argument there, one of the witnesses

 9    actually lived in this neighbourhood.  The Court will have to decide

10    which witnesses are more reliable on this matter.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  If there's going to be more confusion, we better not

12    add to it unnecessarily.  But I just draw your attention that I myself am

13    puzzled as to which of the houses we're talking about.

14            MR. GROOME:  I'm aware of the inconsistency, Your Honour.  Thank

15    you.

16            Your Honour, at this time -- excuse me.  Before -- I tender

17    Prosecution 17.3.101 into evidence at this time.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

19            MR. DOMAZET:  This evidence.  Yes.  Yes.  No objections.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  We'll get a look at it when the court deputy returns

21    it and we can transfer the markings onto our copies or you may be able to

22    organise a marked-up copy when the exhibit comes back to The Hague.

23            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Well, that will be Exhibit P17.3.101.

25            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time, pursuant an agreement

Page 1185

1    between the Prosecution and the Defence, I would tender exhibit or

 2    Prosecution document number 67.  It is a list of names.  The first two

 3    pages, those names are in English.  The last page, the names and

 4    information about those people is in B/C/S.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  And is this the names of the persons who were in the

 6    house when it was burnt?

 7            MR. GROOME:  That this witnesses can testify to.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  Thank you.

 9            Any objection, Mr. Domazet?  I know it was stated to be by

10    agreement, but I just want to have it on the record.

11            MR. DOMAZET:  No.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit P67.

13            MR. GROOME:  At this time I would ask that page 3 of Exhibit P67

14    be placed on the ELMO here so that the witness in Sarajevo can see it.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Does that work?

16            MR. GROOME:  I was told it would work.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  I'll take your word for it.

18                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19            JUDGE HUNT:  They're just looking in to see whether they can do

20    that.  It may take a couple of minutes.

21            MR. GROOME:  The other alternative, Your Honour, would be for us

22    to fax a copy down.  The OTP office is in the same building as where this

23    is occurring so it would take about 15 minutes to do that.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  I think this may be quicker.  Is there something else

25    you can go on with in the meantime.

Page 1186

 1            MR. GROOME:  Actually, this is my concluding portion.  Can I just

 2    amend my offer of this exhibit.  That will be under seal.  There is some

 3    biographical information on this which would identify the witness.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  That Exhibit P67 will be under seal.  I'd

 5    sit down if I were you.  We'll just wait until we hear from the

 6    audiovisual booth.

 7            Yes, it will work.  So page 3.  Thank you.

 8            MR. GROOME:

 9       Q.   Witness 101, Exhibit P67, page 3 of that exhibit has been placed

10    or will be placed, and you should see it on your television screen in

11    front of you.  Are you able to read the document in front of you now?

12       A.   Yes, I am.

13       Q.   I'm going to ask you to tell us some of the victims, the victims

14    that you recall from this night.  I'm going to ask you not to describe the

15    name of a person and your relationship to them at this point.  I'll just

16    ask you to review that list in front of you and ask you, do you recognise

17    the names on that list?

18            JUDGE HUNT:  It will have to be scrolled to some extent for her.

19    It doesn't all fit on the screen.

20            MR. GROOME:

21       Q.   I'd ask you to look at numbers 1 through 20 first, and when you've

22    finished looking at those numbers, please let us know, or the names by

23    those numbers.  Have you finished reading the names next to numbers 1

24    through 20?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1187

 1       Q.   I'd ask that it now be scrolled so that the witness can see

 2    numbers 21 to 40.  I would ask you to look at the names next to 21 to 40

 3    and to read them, and let us know when you are finished.

 4       A.   I have read them.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  And finally, I'd ask that it be scrolled so that the

 6    witness can see to the last entry, which is number 48.  And I'd ask you to

 7    look at the remaining names.

 8       A.   I have read them, yes.

 9       Q.   Can you tell us who the names of these 48 people are?  Who are

10    these people?

11       A.   These people are all Muslims.  They all belong to one family.

12    They're relatives.

13       Q.   And what can you tell us about these 48 names in regards to June

14    14th of 1992?

15       A.   I can say that they were all together in that house on Pionirska

16    Street, that we were supposed to go to Kladanj after that, that we were

17    all together at that time.

18       Q.   Are these people part of the group of people that travelled with

19    you from Koritnik into Visegrad and then on to Pionirska Street?

20       A.   We were there together, except for the five individuals that

21    joined us in Sase.  We were all together.  And the two families that I

22    said that joined us later in Pionirska Street.  So they were in the house,

23    in the house of their own, whereas the rest of us were all together in one

24    group, in one house.

25       Q.   And was this, the numbers 1 to 48, part of the group of people

Page 1188

 1    that was moved to the house by the creek?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Are you related to most of the people on this list?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Have you seen any of the people on this list after the 14th of

 6    June, 1992?

 7       A.   Yes, I have.  Witness VG038, VG013, VG018, VG084, and VG078.

 8       Q.   Of the 48 names that are on the screen in front of you that you've

 9    just read, of those 48, have you ever seen any of those people after the

10    14th of June?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Which people on that list have you seen since the 14th of June?

13    Can you tell us their number?

14       A.   You mean the men in the group or ...

15       Q.   No.  I mean -- you've just looked at the list, numbers 1 through

16    48.  If you need to look at it again, we can move it so you can review the

17    names again.  Of the 48 names in front of you, have you seen any of those

18    people after the 14th of June, from the 15th of June, 1992 to this day?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Which people on that list have you seen since that day?

21       A.   Number 6.

22       Q.   Have you finished reviewing the entire list?

23       A.   Yes.  I have only seen the person listed under number 6.  And

24    witness VG018, I cannot see him on the list.  I don't know which number

25    he's listed under.

Page 1189

 1       Q.   So the remainder of the list, except for number 6, you have not

 2    seen those people after the night of the 14th of June, 1992; is that

 3    correct?

 4       A.   No, never.  I've never seen them.

 5       Q.   Thank you.

 6            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Are we going to find out where she saw number 6?

 8            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there seems to be a mistake on the

 9    list.  That is a witness in the case.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  All right.  Thank you.

11            Mr. Domazet.

12            MR. DOMAZET:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                          Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam VG101.

15       A.   Good afternoon.

16       Q.   I should now like to ask you to answer my questions, and let me

17    begin at the beginning, that is to say, from the morning of the 14th of

18    June, 1992, when you set out from your village with this group.  Do you

19    remember which day of the week it was?

20       A.   It was Sunday.

21       Q.   Thank you.  Immediately prior to that, perhaps even the day

22    before, you talked to the Serbs who had come to tell you that the

23    departure had been organised.  I understood you to say that you understood

24    and that that man told you that it was departure for a certain amount of

25    time and that he hoped and you hoped that you would return to your own

Page 1190

 1    village in a short while; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   What that man said, was it in the form of an order?  Did he order

 4    you to go or did he say he advised you to join the convoy because some

 5    other Serbs could come who could do you some harm?

 6       A.   Yes, it was an order that we had to go, that they couldn't

 7    guarantee us our freedom and that other people had exerted pressure on

 8    them and that we had to leave the village.  He said he would look after

 9    some of our personal belongings until we returned but that we had to leave

10    the village.

11       Q.   Very well.  When you say you had to leave, that means that had you

12    not left, they would not guarantee your safety vis-a-vis the people who

13    might turn up in the village subsequently.  That's how I understood you.

14    Is that right?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   On that morning, Sunday, the 14th of June, 1992, you moved in a

17    column and went along the road to Visegrad.  Did you move freely, that is

18    to say, without any guards, escorts, or were you under some sort of guard

19    or coercion?  Were you forced in any way?

20       A.   We went ourselves to Greben, and then there was a man called

21    Milorad standing at that place, Greben.  His nickname was Micun.  He stood

22    around with us for some time and then he said he couldn't be with us any

23    longer, that he couldn't stand there any longer, that he had to return

24    home, and we were left alone then.  We were on our own.

25       Q.   Yes.  So if I understood you correctly, you went in this column to

Page 1191

 1    Greben completely alone and were joined there by this man Milorad,

 2    nicknamed Micun and he went with you for a certain portion of the way and

 3    then said he couldn't go on further, he didn't dare and you had to carry

 4    on yourselves alone because he couldn't return; is that right?

 5       A.   Right.

 6       Q.   Madam, That man Milorad or Micun was his surname perhaps Lipovac?

 7    Did you hear my question or shall I repeat it?

 8       A.   I'm afraid I didn't hear your question to the end.

 9       Q.   Was this man's name -- surname Lipovac, this Milorad or Micun?

10       A.   No, I can't remember.

11       Q.   The road you took, you didn't encounter a bus, a bus which the

12    people had promised would wait for you, but nonetheless a bus with people

13    from Vlahovici did pass you by and continued on towards Visegrad; is that

14    right?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.

16       Q.   In that bus, was there a woman by the name of Saha or Seha who had

17    started out with you but stopped off in a village because she couldn't

18    take the journey any longer?

19       A.   Yes, that's right.  She was there.

20       Q.   Is that the person you said had lagged behind and was put into the

21    bus?

22       A.   Yes, that's that person.

23       Q.   The people who went in the bus, and that person whom you knew,

24    when you reached Visegrad, you didn't find them there, you didn't see them

25    anywhere, as far as I was able to gather from what you said.  Did you hear

Page 1192

 1    my question?

 2       A.   No, I didn't.

 3       Q.   Upon your arrival in Visegrad, did you see these people and the

 4    woman we mentioned in Visegrad itself, or weren't they there when you

 5    arrived?

 6       A.   No, I didn't see them.

 7       Q.   And you later heard that the woman had reached Kladanj; is that

 8    right?

 9       A.   Yes, that's right.  I did.

10       Q.   In front of the hotel you saw Serb policemen and you told us that

11    they were wearing camouflage uniforms.  Is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Were they blue police-type camouflage uniforms or were they the

14    olive-green/grey uniforms, the standard type?

15       A.   They were olive-green, I think.  Green, yes.

16       Q.   You said specifically, without saying who, "They put us in the

17    garden of the hotel."  Who put you there?

18       A.   The people who stopped us.  They said that we should move away

19    from the front of the hotel.  We were standing on the street, but they

20    told us to go into the garden because we wouldn't be blocking the

21    entrance.

22       Q.   Near the hotel, was there the Red Cross headquarters of Visegrad?

23    Was it housed there?

24       A.   I don't know.  I didn't go to the Red Cross.  I don't know where

25    it is.

Page 1193

 1       Q.   Did you hear from someone in the group that the Red Cross was

 2    looking -- that they were looking for the Red Cross and whether they were

 3    talking about whether it worked, was open or not?

 4       A.   Well, at the beginning, the policeman who told us to go to Janja

 5    told us that we should go to the Red Cross but we didn't see the Red Cross

 6    anywhere, nor did anybody direct us towards the Red Cross.

 7       Q.   How long did you stay there in front of the hotel and in the hotel

 8    gardens?

 9       A.   I don't know exactly how long it was, but we were there until they

10    had reached some agreement as to what to do with us, whether we were to go

11    to Bikavac, while they were discussing where to take us.  And then they

12    cursed us, they swore, so we didn't dare look at them; we would just look

13    down at our own feet in front of us.  I don't know how long we were there

14    for, but we were there for some time.

15       Q.   When you say "they," madam, do you mean the policemen who were in

16    front?

17       A.   Yes, those who were there.

18       Q.   After that, as you said a moment ago, a person came whom you were

19    able to identify as Mitar Vasiljevic.

20       A.   Yes, that's right.

21       Q.   You said that he came in a car and that you think he was alone in

22    the car.

23       A.   I just saw him getting out of the car.  I didn't see anybody else.

24       Q.   May we take it, then, that he drove the car as well?

25       A.   Yes.  I assume he did, because he got out straight away, from the

Page 1194

 1    left-hand side of the car, so probably he was alone and was driving the

 2    car himself.

 3       Q.   You were asked, but let me ask you again, whether you recall the

 4    car.

 5       A.   No, I don't remember.  I can't remember what type of car it was.

 6       Q.   You described what he was wearing and said that he had trousers,

 7    or rather, that he was wearing the SMB, olive-green/grey uniform.

 8       A.   Yes, that's right.

 9       Q.   Do you remember what you told the Tribunal investigator with

10    regard to this same event?

11       A.   Yes.  I said he had a black hat on his head, a black coat, and I

12    remember he had a rather large chain with a cross on it round his neck and

13    that this cross and chain was over his uniform.

14       Q.   Was the cross on the chain around his neck a big one?

15       A.   Yes, it was.

16       Q.   How big, would you say?  Could you tell us how big?

17       A.   Well, it was big, like an index finger, perhaps, the size of an

18    index finger.

19       Q.   You mean length-wise, the length of an index finger?

20       A.   Yes, the length.  Like a plus sign.

21       Q.   A large cross, the length of a finger:  Can I describe it that

22    way?  Is that how I am to describe your description?

23       A.   Yes, that's right.

24       Q.   Do you remember that you said that he had a camouflage uniform on

25    and not an olive-green/grey one?

Page 1195

 1       A.   I said a uniform of the former army, that he was wearing that

 2    uniform and a light coat over it.

 3       Q.   Was the coat an army coat as well, belonging to the former army?

 4       A.   No, it wasn't.

 5       Q.   Madam, when you explained how you identified him as being Mitar

 6    Vasiljevic, you said that you didn't know him personally but that you knew

 7    him by sight.

 8       A.   Yes, that's right.  I would see him around.

 9       Q.   And you said that you saw him when you went to the primary school

10    in Prelovo, that he would pass by that road frequently.

11       A.   Yes.  His wife worked in a shop in Prelovo.  Her name was

12    Milojka.  And we went to primary school there, and that's how I would see

13    him and know him, in Prelovo.

14       Q.   When you would see him during that time, would he be walking or

15    would he be in a car?

16       A.   No.  He would be walking.  The wife would always go in front of

17    him, walk in front, and he would walk behind her.  And he always had this

18    black hat on his head.

19       Q.   How many years was that before what you have described in 1992?

20       A.   Well, a long time ago.  Eight years of primary school.  Well, 15

21    years ago, while I was attending primary school.

22       Q.   Eight or nine years, that means before the events that you're

23    testifying about now took place; is that right?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   You say that that person whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic

Page 1196












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1197

 1    said that you could go to Pionirska Street because there were some empty

 2    houses there.

 3       A.   Yes, that's right.

 4       Q.   And you said that afterwards the whole column, without him and

 5    without an escort, went off towards Pionirska Street; is that right?

 6       A.   Yes, that's right.

 7       Q.   Did that whole column arrive at the houses in Pionirska Street

 8    without any other escort?

 9       A.   Yes.  Nobody accompanied us at all.  We went on our own.

10       Q.   Did you first meet and talk to a woman, and did she indicate a

11    house to you, point you to a house?

12       A.   Yes.  A woman came out of a house and she said -- inaudible.

13            THE INTERPRETER:  And then the witness says "the house by the

14    creek."

15            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation].

16       Q.   Could you repeat your answer, please.  We weren't able to hear it

17    properly.

18       A.   Yes.  The woman came out of the house and she told us that we

19    should get out of the road, that we couldn't stand on the road and that we

20    should go to the house by the creek.  It was the house belonging to a man

21    and his sister, whose sister was with us in the column.

22       Q.   When you say it was the house, you mean the house by the creek

23    that you were directed to?

24       A.   Yes, that's right.

25       Q.   How far was that house from the house in which you finally went

Page 1198

 1    in?

 2       A.   Perhaps 50 metres away.  I don't know exactly, but they were quite

 3    close to each over.

 4       Q.   You said today, madam, that about five minutes after your arrival,

 5    that is to say, after your group arrived in Pionirska Street, that Mitar

 6    Vasiljevic came in a car.

 7       A.   Yes, that's right, because we had already started off towards this

 8    house, and then Mitar turned up.  I didn't see the car, but I saw him in

 9    front of the door of the big house.  And he said, "All of you come back

10    here.  I have something to tell you.  Form a group and all come back, form

11    a circle around me."  He said we could no longer live together, that we

12    would go to Kladanj, and when we got to Kladanj --

13       Q.   Yes, thank you.  You've already told us that.  You've already told

14    us that this morning.  My question was just the moment of his arrival.

15    You said you didn't see the car.  How, then, do you know that he came by

16    car?

17       A.   Well, because he came very soon afterwards, but I didn't see the

18    car.  That's true.  I couldn't see the street from that house, so I didn't

19    see whether he came by car.

20       Q.   When you say he told us to go back, when he said, "Go back," was

21    he standing up above you towards the school in Pionirska Street and the

22    column was down below towards town, or was it something else?

23       A.   He was in front of the big house.  I moved towards the house by

24    the creek, where they would be killed later on.  I didn't reach the

25    house.  I came to the corner and he told us to come back.  He said, "All

Page 1199

 1    of you have to go into one house so that you're all together."

 2       Q.   If I understood you correctly, he was standing a little higher up

 3    Pionirska Street towards the house -- the school.

 4       A.   No.  The school is on the right-hand side and he was exactly in

 5    front of the big house, and I moved off in the direction of the house by

 6    the creek.  And somewhere halfway, we had to return to the big house.  We

 7    were told to go back to the big house, where Mitar was standing.

 8       Q.   Well, I don't want to insist upon that point.  I don't think it's

 9    essential.

10            Let me ask you the following:  Did you ever see Mitar Vasiljevic

11    drive a car on any other occasion?

12       A.   No, never.

13       Q.   Do you remember what time of day it was, what time it might have

14    been when you went into the house?

15       A.   Well, I don't know what time it was, but I do know that a long

16    time went by by the time we got to Visegrad and put up in Pionirska

17    Street.

18       Q.   When the group arrived in which you recognised Milan Lukic and you

19    also described three other men who were with him, the group that did the

20    looting --

21       A.   Yes, that's right.

22       Q.   -- in your statement to the investigator, you said that it was

23    around 1800 hours.  Is that correct?

24       A.   Well, I didn't say the exact time, but they did come soon after

25    Mitar Vasiljevic.

Page 1200

 1       Q.   You said late in the afternoon, at about 1800 hours.

 2       A.   I said that they had perhaps left the house towards dusk.

 3       Q.   I'm telling you what it says in your statement to the

 4    investigator.  Now, you tell me whether that is correct or not.

 5       A.   I can't say what time it was.  I don't know exactly what the time

 6    was.

 7       Q.   You said today that the group left around dusk, when darkness

 8    began to fall; is that right?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   From their departure up until the time they returned again, can

11    you determine how much time elapsed?

12       A.   Not long.  It was dark.  There were no lights in the house, so

13    that we sat around in the dark.

14       Q.   Let me remind you once again and see whether what you said to the

15    investigator is correct.  You said at around midnight that the group

16    returned at around midnight.

17       A.   Well, I assume that it was around midnight, because I know that I

18    spent the whole night escaping in the woods and I needed -- and a lot of

19    time went by before dawn.  So I assume that it was 11.00 or 12.00, but I

20    can't say exactly.

21       Q.   Do you know if that group arrived in a car?

22       A.   I did not see the car, but I heard a car park near the house.

23       Q.   So it was then that the same group of Chetniks arrived, the same

24    group as the one that came in the afternoon that did the looting,

25    including the person that you described as Mitar Vasiljevic; is that

Page 1201

 1    correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   A moment ago you marked a photograph, indicating a number of

 4    places, that is, all of the places where you were and where you saw the

 5    individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic.  You also indicated

 6    the shed behind which you fled and hid.  Is that correct?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   You have also indicated to us the spot from where you could see

 9    the individual whom you referred to as Mitar Vasiljevic for the third

10    time, that is, for the third time on that day, and you indicated the spot

11    as MV-3.  And you also indicated the spot from where you could see him.

12    Is that correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Did that sighting happen at the moment you were still -- while you

15    were still walking with the column from which you fled?

16       A.   Yes.  As I got out of the big house and moved towards the house

17    near the creek.

18       Q.   So it was at that time, as the column was moving towards the house

19    of Omeragic?

20       A.   Yes.  Yes.  First there was the shed and then this spot where they

21    were standing.  I don't know exactly what it was.  I remember that the

22    place had some kind of roof or a shelter and that it was lit.  They were

23    using floodlights and lighting up the area surrounding that spot.

24       Q.   Now you are referring to the house of Omeragic, the house that was

25    burnt down, I suppose.  Is that the house that you said was lit?

Page 1202

 1       A.   No.  I am referring to the spot where I fled, that is, I fled

 2    behind the shed, and in front of the shed the area was lit.  I could not

 3    see the house from that place, no.

 4       Q.   You couldn't see the house from where you were standing because

 5    the light was in your direction, was turned in your direction, and the

 6    house across the street?

 7       A.   Yes.  The light was turned towards that house, but I was not able

 8    to see the house.  The area was lit for us so that we could find our way

 9    to the second house.

10       Q.   So from that place, while you were walking, halfway through, so

11    from that spot, you saw the person whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic

12    for the third time?  Is was from that particular location?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And it was from that particular spot that you, and I suppose your

17    sister, who was walking right behind you, that you fled to the left and

18    hid behind the shed that you marked with number 3?

19       A.   Well, it was a small installation.  I assume it was a shed.  It

20    was a small structure, in any case, and we hid ourselves behind that shed.

21       Q.   Yes, but in any case, it was behind the structure that you marked

22    with number 3, whether it was a shed or a small hut or a house, it's not

23    really important.  Is that correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Did anyone else, apart from you, attempt to escape at the moment

Page 1203

 1    you did?

 2       A.   No.  I didn't even know that my sister did, up until the moment

 3    she threw herself on the ground right behind me.  We didn't stay there for

 4    a long time.  No.  No.  I didn't see anyone else behind us, because we

 5    left the spot as fast as we could.

 6       Q.   Witness, can you hear me?

 7       A.   Yes, I can.

 8       Q.   Because I did not hear the end of your answer.  There must have

 9    been an interruption.

10            According to the photograph that you marked for the Court today,

11    it was from that spot that you ran toward the house.  That the distance

12    was approximately or at least ten metres.  Can we agree on that, that that

13    was the difference from that spot to this house?

14       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I remember.  I don't know exactly -- I don't remember

15    what the distance was, but I remember running for a while and then

16    throwing myself onto the ground.

17       Q.   And you stayed there with your sister for a while, you said

18    between 5 and 10 minutes?

19       A.   Yes.  We still needed to cover some distance down to the creek.  I

20    remember a hill, a slope, and there was a valley there where we lay, with

21    some water, where we lay for a while, and then we decided to go upstream

22    and to follow the creek.  It was not a very big creek.  It really had very

23    little water in it.

24       Q.   In what direction did you go following the creek?

25       A.   I remember that we went upstream for a while.  I don't exactly

Page 1204

 1    remember for how long.  And then at one point we turned right and entered

 2    the woods.  We just wanted to get to the woods.

 3       Q.   So you turned right from the creek, otherwise you would have

 4    turned left towards the town?

 5       A.   Yes.  I remember some very high hedges that we had to climb over,

 6    and it was only then, after that, that we managed to reach the woods.

 7       Q.   So you were in the woods at the time that you heard some noise

 8    such as explosions or detonations?

 9       A.   Well, it was at the beginning that we heard -- that we could hear

10    this shooting.

11       Q.   How far is the wood?  How long did it take you to reach the woods?

12       A.   I don't know exactly how long it took us to get there, but by that

13    time everybody had left the large house and they -- at the time they were

14    trying to jump out of the windows.  The shooting started.  I mean, that

15    was the moment that we actually heard the shooting.

16       Q.   Was that the shooting that you heard or explosions or just fire,

17    since you couldn't see it from you were?  What was your impression?  What

18    did you think was going on?

19       A.   As far as I remember, I -- well, I couldn't see anything because

20    it was dark, but I heard single shots, and my impression was that they

21    were being killed as they reached the lit area.  It was something like an

22    execution.  I thought that they were lined up next to each other and being

23    executed.  So that was the feeling, that was the impression that I had at

24    the moment I heard the shooting.

25       Q.   So you didn't realise in any way -- I mean, it was not your

Page 1205

 1    impression that the place had been set on fire.  You couldn't see or smell

 2    anything?

 3       A.   No, I didn't see the fire.  I couldn't see or smell the smoke.  I

 4    only heard the shooting.  Because we didn't dare linger around.  We tried

 5    to leave the place as soon as possible and to flee.

 6       Q.   A moment ago when you were looking at the list of people whom you

 7    said were with you on that occasion, somewhere at the end of the list we

 8    could see the name Mujo Jasarevic from Sase.  Do you remember that

 9    individual?

10       A.   He joined us in Sase, together with three other women.  They were

11    from the village of Sase, and it was in Sase that they joined us.

12       Q.   Mujo, was he with you in the first house before you left the

13    house?

14       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I remember that he was there.  He knew Mitar

15    Vasiljevic very well.

16       Q.   Are you sure about his surname, Jasarevic?  Could it not be

17    (redacted), by any chance?

18       A.   There was Mujo and Alija Jasarevic.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  I think we might have lost the connection again for a

20    moment there.  Do you want to ask her the question again, Mr. Domazet?

21            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.

22       Q.   Witness, my question was whether perhaps Mujo's surname was

23    (redacted) and not Jasarevic.

24       A.   Yes, you're right.  Alija's surname was Jasarevic and there were

25    two other women with the surname of Velic, and one more woman who had the

Page 1206

 1    same surname as me and my family and who died.

 2       Q.   In your statement you said that on that day, on the 14th of June,

 3    you saw the person whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic first near the

 4    hotel, that he got out of a car there, then in Pionirska Street for the

 5    second time, when he actually came to you and spoke to you; and then again

 6    on the third occasion, somewhere near the house and then near that spot

 7    that you indicated as you were part of that column.

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Are you sure that the individual whom you saw at the hotel in

10    Pionirska Street is the same person as the person you identified at

11    midnight or thereabouts in the night when this crime took place?

12       A.   Yes, I am sure.

13       Q.   I'm asking you this because the individual in question, Mitar

14    Vasiljevic, was in Pionirska Street that afternoon, but there is

15    documentary evidence to the effect that on that evening, as early as

16    2130 --

17            JUDGE HUNT:  That's not the way to cross-examine.  What are you

18    going to ask her to do, to say whether the documentary evidence is right

19    or wrong?

20            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I was under

21    the impression that the document in question, that is, the document on the

22    admission of Mitar Vasiljevic to the hospital, has been admitted into

23    evidence through the witness Hansen, the investigator, that I was allowed

24    to ask questions on the basis of that document.  I may have erroneously

25    formulated my question.  If necessary, I should like to reformulate it in

Page 1207

 1    connection with this particular exhibit, because --

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Just before you do, you've asked this question before

 3    and each time I think I've queried the purpose of the question.  You're

 4    going to say to her something along the lines other people have suggested

 5    otherwise or there is a document to suggest otherwise.  How does this

 6    witness deal with that?  That's not a challenge to her evidence.  You have

 7    challenged her evidence, I think that's safe to say, but do you think that

 8    by force of putting this to her she is going to cave in and say, "I must

 9    have been wrong"?  That's not a question in cross-examination.  I'm not

10    sure whether it may be different in other countries, but I have always

11    understood that you cannot ask a witness to comment upon other evidence in

12    the case unless it is something that was said when she was present or in

13    some other way she has personal knowledge of it, and it's a very sound

14    rule, if I may say so, of common sense.

15            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I

16    will rephrase my question.  With your permission, I would like to ask the

17    witness whether she has ever heard about Mitar Vasiljevic's injury to his

18    leg, and also about his prolonged absence from Visegrad.

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   And my last question for you, madam:  Are you positive that the

21    individual whom you saw around midnight or sometime before midnight near

22    the house of Omeragic was the individual in question, that is, before you

23    fled towards the house that you marked with number 3?

24       A.   Yes.

25            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That concludes my

Page 1208

 1    cross-examination.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome.  May I suggest there is something which

 3    we perhaps better have very clear perhaps by agreement.  What is the

 4    colour of the old JNA uniform?

 5            MR. GROOME:  I believe Mr. Domazet has done service in the

 6    People's Yugoslav Army, so I would rely on his representation of that.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  What is it, Mr. Domazet?  What is the colour?  Let's

 8    hear it from the horse's mouth.  I'm sorry.  That's a colloquialism that

 9    you may not understand.

10            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the colour of the

11    uniform was described with an acronym, SMB, which stands for

12    grey/olive-green uniform.  It was a unicoloured uniform and of the

13    lighter shade of olive-green colour.  That was the customary and the only

14    uniform at the time when I did my military service.  Later on, in addition

15    to this particular uniform, a camouflage uniform was introduced, but

16    unlike these other police camouflage uniforms, the JNA camouflage uniform

17    has some brown and reddish hues and it has this characteristic pattern,

18    whereas the police camouflage uniform is blue and not as multicoloured as

19    the military one.  I don't know if this is of any assistance to you, Your

20    Honours.  If this should be challenged, I think that we can present

21    additional evidence.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  I think it's fair to say, Mr. Domazet, that was my

23    understanding of it, but there have been a number of witnesses, including

24    this one, who have referred to it without describing the colour, and I

25    thought we had better get it straight.

Page 1209

 1            Have you got any objection to any of the descriptions that

 2    Mr. Domazet gave, Mr. Groome?

 3            MR. GROOME:  No.  I accept Mr. Domazet's representation of the

 4    uniforms to the extent that they do not contradict the witness.  If

 5    the witness describes different colours, I would ask the Court to rely on

 6    what the witness --

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  No.  This witness made it very clear what she meant,

 8    and it was the same as Mr. Domazet's description, but I thought we should

 9    have it on the record somewhere.

10            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, have you got any questions in re-examination?

12            MR. GROOME:  Just a couple of questions.

13                          Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

14       Q.   Witness 101, Mr. Domazet asked you about describing the column of

15    people as it came up Pionirska Street from the town to the big house.  I

16    want to ask you a question about that column.  My question is:  Are you

17    able to approximate the length of the column, that is, the distance from

18    the first person in the group of people to the last person in the group of

19    people?

20       A.   I don't know exactly the column --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry.  We're having difficulty hearing the

22    witness.

23       A.   We were in a column two by two, moving towards Pionirska Street.

24            MR. GROOME:

25       Q.   So the group of people were two people side by side, for whatever

Page 1210

 1    length that took; is that correct?  I saw you nod your head.  Would you

 2    please answer verbally.

 3       A.   No.  I don't know how long it was.

 4       Q.   But are you saying that the column, the width of the column, was

 5    only two people wide, one person next to another?

 6       A.   Yes, two by two, maybe three in cases of some women with children,

 7    like a woman leading her two children, but mostly it was two by two.

 8       Q.   And by the time this column was on Pionirska Street, what is your

 9    best estimate of how many people were in the column?

10       A.   Fifty-three.

11       Q.   And can you approximate for us where in this column you were?

12    Were you at the front, at the rear, somewhere in the middle?  Can you

13    approximate where you were?

14       A.   No.  No, I can't remember that.

15       Q.   Now, Mr. Domazet asked you about a person by the name of Mujo

16    Jasarevic, and in answer to one of his questions you stated that this man

17    knew Mitar Vasiljevic very well.  My question to you is:  How do you know

18    that?

19       A.   I think that in that house either Mujo or Alija would have known

20    that, because in that village, Mitar's wife, Milojka, also worked, and

21    they were there together in that shop.  I don't know whether it was Mujo

22    or Alija.  One of them or both of them liked to drink.  Other people knew

23    him very well.  He even addressed a woman from our village.  He spoke to

24    her about her brother, who had been taken away at the very beginning.  He

25    told her that he was safe, that he was in Sarajevo, that she should not

Page 1211

 1    worry.  She was also one of the people who knew him very well.  She used

 2    to work in Visegrad, and she told us that Mitar had told her that her

 3    brother had been taken to Sarajevo and that he was safe and

 4    that we would also reach Kladanj in safety and that she would be reunited

 5    with her brother, that he was alive and well.  However, ever since the

 6    beginning of the war, no one has ever heard about that man.

 7       Q.   Did you, on the 14th of June, ever hear Mujo Jasarevic refer to

 8    Mitar Vasiljevic, using his name?

 9       A.   Yes.  I heard that while I was in the house, but I also heard it

10    from other people who knew him very well, in particular, this woman I just

11    told you about.  She knew him.  She even spoke to him when he told her

12    about her brother, that he was safe, that they should not worry about him,

13    that he would be transferred to Sarajevo.

14            MR. GROOME:  Thank you very much, Witness 101.  That is all the

15    questions I have.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you very much, madam, for giving evidence

17    before the Tribunal today and for the evidence you gave.  You are now free

18    to leave.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                          [The witness withdrew]

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that the last of the witnesses on videolink?

22            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, there's probably little opportunity to start

24    another witness this afternoon.

25            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

Page 1212












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1213

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Have you got one here?

 2            MR. GROOME:  There is one here, but may I suggest we discuss the

 3    subpoenaed witnesses.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, very well.

 5            MR. GROOME:  I have some updated information regarding them.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  We will deal with the next witness

 7    tomorrow.  We will only be sitting until lunchtime tomorrow, unless

 8    there's only a tiny bit of evidence to deal with.

 9            MR. GROOME:  The information that I have at this point is that

10    both of the witnesses have agreed to come up.  They apparently went to

11    apply for passports today and for their visa applications today.  However,

12    the earliest that that process will be completed would bring them here or

13    make them available to testify at the very end of next week.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  That's all right.  Your last witness, I gather, is

15    Dr. de Grave.

16            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  So that you've got the Friday and the Monday to fill

18    in even on your -- I think this is the penultimate version of the -- the

19    new one, yes.  Yes, even on the most recent edition of your schedule,

20    you've got Friday and Monday to fill in, so that should do it.

21            MR. GROOME:  Yes.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  It does not matter if the case goes on past

23    Dr. de Grave but I just have to keep in mind a few other matters that are

24    happening around at that time.  One of them is that on that Friday, that

25    will be Friday the -- I'm sorry.  Go back one.  Thursday, the 11th of

Page 1214

 1    October, all of the Judges of the Tribunal are travelling to a conference

 2    elsewhere in Europe with the Rwanda Tribunal.  This is an annual event

 3    that we're expected to attend and we'll be leaving sometime during the

 4    course of the afternoon, depending upon the amount of time we have to be

 5    at the airport before the plane leaves, which at the moment I'm told is

 6    three hours, rather an alarming prospect.  So that Thursday and obviously

 7    the Friday of that week, we will not be available, Thursday afternoon at

 8    least.

 9            Very well, then.  Anything else?

10            MR. GROOME:  Just one small matter on this.  It will be until

11    tomorrow -- we won't be able to have the next week's witness to the Court

12    until tomorrow afternoon.  There are some problems, logistical problems.

13    We will have witnesses here next week, but we're not sure which order.  As

14    soon as we can get that finalised we'll get that to the Court.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  The most important person you should notify, of

16    course, is Mr. Domazet, because he has to be ready to cross-examine them,

17    and my own experience of it is that you like to have the evening before

18    with the witnesses you know are going to be called the next day, otherwise

19    from the Trial Chamber's point of view it doesn't matter.

20            Very well.  We'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.

21                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.58 p.m.,

22                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of

23                          September 2001, at 9.30 a.m. 3.58