Page 1112
1 Thursday, 27 September 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Mitar Vasiljevic.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Are you able to hear us, sir, in that far away
9 place?
10 WITNESS: WITNESS VG87 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 [Witness testifies via videolink]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
15 Mr. Domazet.
16 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]
18 Q. Good morning, Witness VG87. To continue where we left off
19 yesterday, you described Monday the 15th, the day you went into town and
20 never returned to Pionirska Street. My question for you is the following:
21 Do you know (redacted) ?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Did you happen to see him on that particular morning when you left
24 Pionirska, that is to say, Monday, the 15th of June?
25 A. No, I did not.
Page 1113
1 Q. Did you see any of your neighbours at all on that occasion?
2 A. No. I didn't meet any of my next-door neighbours. I saw a woman
3 I knew and I asked her where her husband was, and she said that he wasn't
4 at home. And I doubted that that was true, but I didn't see him, so I
5 can't actually say whether he was at home or not.
6 Q. [No interpretation]
7 A. That's what I thought, yes. Yes, It seemed to me that he was
8 carrying a bottle. Perhaps it wasn't, but that's what it looked like to
9 me, and a megaphone.
10 Q. [No interpretation]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're not getting a translation of the question in
12 English.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear now? Could counsel repeat his
14 question, please.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Apparently there was a breakdown somewhere. Would
16 you repeat your question, please, Mr. Domazet.
17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 Q. In view of the fact that you were able to see Mr. Vasiljevic from
19 time to time, you watched what he was doing from time to time, did he give
20 the impression of an individual who might have been under the effects of
21 alcohol to a greater or lesser extent?
22 A. No, I don't think so. I wouldn't say that.
23 Q. Does that mean that you can't say or --
24 A. I don't think he was. I would rather say he wasn't intoxicated
25 than he was. Now, that all depends. Some people take to drink
Page 1114
1 differently, but that wasn't the impression I gained. He wasn't attacking
2 anybody, he wasn't rolling around or anything like that.
3 Q. Yes, I understand. I didn't think that was the case. I know how
4 you described his movements. But of course it would have been difficult
5 to assess whether somebody was drunk or not, or tipsy. Did you happen to
6 know (redacted) from Sase at all?
7 A. Very slightly. I know that he was a tall man. He worked on the
8 left bank of the Drina. I don't know for what company. We weren't
9 friends, but I did know him a little. Not very close, though.
10 Q. Did you happen to notice him on that particular day in Pionirska
11 Street?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions for you.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME: Just a few, Your Honour
16 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:
17 Q. Witness 87, yesterday Mr. Domazet asked you a number of questions
18 regarding the times that different events happened. Do you recall being
19 asked questions regarding the time?
20 A. Well, let's see if I can -- perhaps I remember. Could you refresh
21 my memory? What do you actually mean?
22 Q. Mr. Domazet asked you, for example, the time that you first
23 smelled smoke. Do you recall that?
24 A. I do. About 2000 hours, thereabouts, perhaps a little before
25 that, but roundabout 2000 hours.
Page 1115
1 Q. And he asked you several questions regarding times that different
2 events happened concerning your wife. Do you recall that?
3 A. Well, yes, I do, not only my wife but quite a few women together,
4 several of them. There were four, plus a child, and then afterwards, when
5 they went up there to take the car from the garage, I thought everything
6 was over, but then between 8.00 or 2000 hours and 21 hours they came back
7 again and they evicted people from the flats into that -- that is to say,
8 that group of women, with one child and sent them off to the school. That
9 was between 8.00 and 9.00. And they kept them there until 2300 hours,
10 then took them back to Pionirska, took them down the street. I wasn't
11 able to see or hear them any more, so that was my final parting with
12 them. I didn't see them any more.
13 Q. Witness 87, my question to you is: Are these times that you have
14 given us here yesterday and today, are these approximations of the times
15 that you believe or are you certain that these are the times that these
16 events occurred?
17 A. An approximation, because it was dark. Sometimes I would go to
18 the place that I looked out from. I had a watch, or didn't. So I would
19 say it was roundabout that time, in the space of 30 minutes at the most,
20 not more than the space of 30 minutes.
21 Q. And you testified that you later learnt that your wife died in the
22 fire on Pionirska Street that day, and my question to you is: Do you know
23 from personal knowledge whether she was put into the house before the fire
24 was started or sometime after the fire was started? Do you have any
25 personal knowledge regarding that fact?
Page 1116
1 A. I heard from a man who escaped the fire when there was a
2 detonation and explosion -- I don't know. There was an explosion of some
3 kind and the door opened and the man jumped out of the fire. And this
4 group was thrown inside together with my wife. I heard from him, and he
5 was a distant relative of my wife. The man died two years ago in
6 Sarajevo. He's not alive now. He's no longer living. So that was the
7 first time that I heard about it. And later on in Medzedza, when I got
8 there, I heard some more about it, five or six days later. I was in
9 Medzedza for 20 days for treatment and there were stories going around.
10 Some people said it wasn't, but according to what I think and what I
11 heard, most probably she died in the fire. She was thrown, living, into
12 the fire, into the flames, and you could hear screams at around 2000 hours
13 and three hours later, 2300 hours or perhaps two and a half hours or two
14 hours later, if they went -- no. Between 8.00 and 9.00. They stayed
15 there until 2300 hours. Well, that's it. It's easy to calculate.
16 Q. You're referring to hearing screams. Is this what was told to you
17 or are you saying now that you did hear some screams on that night?
18 A. In the first burning there was a house which was burnt and smoke.
19 I didn't hear any screams then. I just heard screams when they came back
20 for the second time to the apartment where there were four women and
21 children. They set up a great resistance. They entreated and pleaded,
22 but it was all to no avail. They turned them out of the flat, into the
23 direction of the school house. They kept them there until 2300 hours and
24 when they came back after that I heard screams again and entreaties and
25 pleadings that they could be allowed to go to Olovo and so on. So I heard
Page 1117
1 screams on two occasions: When they expelled them and when they returned
2 them from the school to Pionirska Street.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Witness 87.
4 Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving your evidence. We are
6 grateful to you for giving that evidence and you are now free to leave.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. That's fine. It
8 wasn't very long. It didn't take too long. That was short, short.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps I should record our gratitude to the
11 technical crew present at the remote location that we now are able to see
12 the witness a little better than we were able to yesterday. It's a far
13 better picture, even though we don't have the United Nations flag in the
14 background.
15 Have you got the next witness ready?
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, madam, the Court deputy who is just beside you
18 there will read to you the terms of the solemn declaration that you are
19 required to make before you give your evidence. When she has read it to
20 you, you should say in answer to my question do you make that solemn
21 declaration, you should say yes. Would you please read the solemn
22 declaration to the witness.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS VG105
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
Page 1118
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 [Witness testifies via videolink]
3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, madam. Sit down, please.
4 MR. GROOME: May I proceed?
5 I would ask that the witness be shown document 85, the pseudonym
6 sheet. Perhaps the court deputy -- Your Honour, I think there's no other
7 way to do this other than to go into private session and read this to the
8 witness.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We'll go into private session, please.
10 [Private session]
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE HUNT: We are now in public session.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Witness 105, are you from the municipality of Visegrad?
Page 1119
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And --
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us, were you married?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how many children did you have?
7 A. Five.
8 Q. Can you tell us what village you were from?
9 A. Zlijeb.
10 Q. And approximately how many families are in that village?
11 A. I can't tell you. There were quite a lot, but I can't tell you
12 exactly.
13 Q. What was the ethnicity of the people in the village?
14 A. Muslims.
15 Q. Did your family own and work a farm in your village?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. In the spring of 1992 did your husband leave your village because
18 of security concerns?
19 A. My husband worked in Sarajevo and he came back for us to take us
20 out of that village, but he wasn't able to and he disappeared. He fled to
21 Zepa and disappeared.
22 Q. Who did he flee to Zepa with? What members of your family?
23 A. With my sons and the people from the village, the menfolk. They
24 all fled to Zepa. Some of the women did too, but not all of them. Some
25 of the women stayed on to look after the land and the cattle, but we
Page 1120
1 weren't able to look after everything.
2 Q. Did you remain behind?
3 A. Yes. My mother-in-law was an invalid. I wasn't able to go with
4 her anywhere, so I stayed until they came to expel us.
5 Q. Was there a time that regular soldiers of the Yugoslav People's
6 Army came to the village?
7 A. Yes, they did. They did come, yes, yes.
8 Q. And did they set up a command post approximately one half hour
9 from your village?
10 A. They came in a kombi van and we were told they were the White
11 Eagles, but I don't know who was what. All I know is they came. They
12 sent me into my house, one of them. He placed an automatic rifle to the
13 nape of my neck and forced me into the house. He searched the house to
14 see if there were any weapons hidden or whether anybody else was hidden in
15 the house and then he left and I stayed in the house. That's all.
16 Q. Are you able to tell us approximately when that occurred?
17 A. Well, I don't know whether it was Ramadan or not. I'm not sure.
18 I can't say for sure. I can't remember. It's ten years since that time.
19 You know how it is. One forgets.
20 Q. Did one of these soldiers identified to you as White Eagles show
21 you a list of names?
22 A. No. They did show names, but not to us. They didn't read them
23 out. They said, "You have a husband, you have sons." That's how it was.
24 That's what they said.
25 Q. Did they ask where your husband and where your sons were?
Page 1121
1 A. Yes. Yes, they did. They did, and I said that my husband was in
2 Sarajevo. I didn't dare say that he had left for Zepa. But what they had
3 actually done was to flee to Zepa. And then he asked me where my sons
4 were, and I said my sons were in Austria and that's true. Two of my
5 sons actually were in Austria. Two of them came back to take us away from
6 the war. However, they were not able to do so. They fell upon hard
7 times, and two of them disappeared. One was killed, one is in Zepa, one
8 disappeared, and my husband in Srebrenica too.
9 Q. Did there come --
10 A. And my brother-in-law.
11 Q. Did there come a time when these White Eagles searched your house
12 for weapons?
13 A. Yes, they did. They did. I've already said. I've told the
14 truth. I've told you how it was. Had a pistol but with a permit. And my
15 brother-in-law had a pistol with a permit. They took them off -- they
16 took them away with them when they left, so there was nothing left.
17 Q. I want to draw your attention now to the Muslim holiday of
18 Bajram. Do you remember when Bajram was in June of 1992?
19 A. Yes. I think -- whether it was June or July. It's after May.
20 But you know, I'm illiterate, so I don't know these things. But on the
21 third day of Bajram they came to expel us from our house. It was the
22 third day of Bajram. And a Wednesday. I know that it was a Wednesday.
23 There was Milojica from Pozdercici, and he said, "Collect what you
24 need, take some bread for three days, and get going. You are to be
25 ready." And they rounded us up at some customs places. I'm sorry. At
Page 1122
1 Carine, at a place called Carine, and the elderly couldn't go there, so
2 then we got some cattle and some bulls and helped us along and then they
3 put us into a truck and took us to the fire brigade centre.
4 Q. The first time that the White Eagles came to your house, did you
5 recognise any of the people that were among that group?
6 A. No, I didn't. No. No.
7 Q. This second time that you're describing now on the third day of
8 Bajram, did you recognise any of the people in this group?
9 A. Well, my neighbour Milojica from Pozdercici, he was a neighbour.
10 He came.
11 Q. And how many people were involved in this second incident on the
12 third day of Bajram?
13 A. Well, quite a few of them, but I don't know. I was afraid. You
14 know how it is when you have to leave your house and all your belongings
15 and everything. I didn't count them. There were quite a few of them.
16 That's the main thing. And they rounded us up in a meadow, in a field.
17 They rounded us up there and then waited until we were all there, we had
18 all gathered there. And then they put us all into a truck and took us to
19 the fire brigade centre.
20 Q. Can you describe the truck for us? It was an army truck or a
21 private truck?
22 A. No, it was not a military truck, no. Just a regular truck, a
23 privately owned truck.
24 Q. And where precisely did they bring you?
25 A. To the fire brigade centre.
Page 1123
1 Q. And is that in the centre of Visegrad town?
2 A. Yes, in the centre.
3 Q. How many floors are in that building?
4 A. Two floors.
5 Q. And can you describe for the Court what occurred when you were
6 brought to the fire brigade?
7 A. When we were brought to the fire brigade they rounded us up. They
8 took our names down. They registered us. Then they told us to discard
9 our gold, jewellery, and money, which we did, if we had any. We gave them
10 everything. But they didn't trust us. They didn't believe us. And then
11 they herded us all in a room upstairs, in groups of four, four women, and
12 we were searched there again. And once again we had to give them
13 everything we had. I had my wristwatch with me, but he took it away from
14 me and he smashed it on the floor. And I said that that was the only
15 thing I had. And then they took us back downstairs. At that point the
16 men were taken away, one by one. And that's how it happened.
17 Q. You referred to a person as "he" who searched you and broke your
18 watch. Do you know the identity of that person?
19 A. I don't know his name, because I didn't know him, but I heard
20 other people refer to him as Lakic by surname. But I'm not sure.
21 Q. And during the course of that search, were you and the other women
22 made to take your clothes off?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Correction. Lakic's son.
24 A. Yes. Some did, some didn't. I took some of my clothes and he
25 searched me to see if I had any jewellery or money on me.
Page 1124
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Of the people at the fire brigade at this time, did you recognise
3 any of the perpetrators?
4 A. The people who took our people away? Lukic and Vasiljevic.
5 Q. Let me ask you about Milan Lukic first. Did you know him prior to
6 this day?
7 A. No. No, I didn't.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, that was a very leading question and it
9 doesn't help us. If you want to get an identity, please get it from the
10 witness.
11 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Can you describe the circumstances under which you learnt the name
13 of this person you just described?
14 A. Well, yes, I can describe him. People who knew Lukic and this
15 other guy, Vasiljevic, people knew him. I cannot tell you anything else.
16 I can only tell you what I know about. I can only tell you the truth.
17 Q. Can you describe for us what you know about this other person
18 you're referring to as Vasiljevic?
19 A. Only what I know. They took away Mujo Gluscevic and his
20 daughter was there when he was taken away, and she started to cry. And he
21 took her. He hugged her. He said, "Don't cry." I also have a daughter.
22 Your daddy will be back, will be exchanged." That's all I know about
23 Vasiljevic.
24 Q. Before I ask you what Mr. Vasiljevic did, I would ask you to
25 describe the circumstances under which you know him?
Page 1125
1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. We didn't hear the witness.
2 A. He used to work as a waiter. That's what I heard from other
3 people, that is, that he was from Blaca, from that area. That's what I
4 heard. And that's all I know.
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Did you know the name of his wife?
7 A. Esma. His wife is from Pozdercici, from the village of Hrastovi.
8 I think her name is Milojka.
9 Q. And can you describe for the Court when is the first time you saw
10 Mitar Vasiljevic at any time?
11 JUDGE HUNT: Here we go again. That is a leading question. There
12 is no suggestion that there is any evidence of that name. Don't you
13 understand, Mr. Groome, that if you want this case to be accepted, it
14 should be presented in the usual way, non-leading? Leading questions
15 invite an answer which are of very little value. You are destroying your
16 own case by continually doing this.
17 MR. GROOME: I apologise, Your Honour. It's not my intention to
18 use the first name and it's my intention to simply establish when is the
19 first time she saw the person she referred to in her testimony.
20 JUDGE HUNT: As Vasiljevic.
21 MR. GROOME: As Vasiljevic. I apologise for using the first name.
22 Q. Can you describe for us when is the first time you saw this person
23 you've referred to as Vasiljevic?
24 A. I don't know what else to say. I didn't know who he was until I
25 saw him at the fire brigade.
Page 1126
1 Q. Did there come a time when you were asked to look at a group of
2 pictures?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you recognise any of the people in those pictures?
5 A. Only Vasiljevic.
6 Q. And how did you mark the picture that you recognised?
7 A. Well, because I used to see him, but I didn't know who he was.
8 But I did see him in Visegrad from time to time, and then I saw him at the
9 fire brigade. So that was the picture that I had, the image, I mean, at
10 the fire brigade centre.
11 Q. When you saw this group of pictures, did you do anything to
12 document or indicate which picture you recognised?
13 A. Yes. I pointed to his photograph and I said that that was the man
14 that I knew, that I recognised him.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I show the witness the next
16 witness, I'd ask that we go into private session briefly.
17 JUDGE HUNT: How is her pointing to it or otherwise marking it
18 going to identify her?
19 MR. GROOME: I think when she is shown the exhibit and the Court
20 sees the exhibit it will be clear.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We'll go into private session.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
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6 [Open session]
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Did there come a time when some of the men that were in the fire
9 brigade were taken from the fire brigade? Can you hear me?
10 A. You're asking me? Oh, okay.
11 Q. Did there come a time when some of the men were taken from the
12 fire brigade?
13 A. You mean at what time or --
14 Q. I'm asking you --
15 A. They were taken at dusk. It was already dark when they were
16 taken.
17 Q. How many days --
18 A. One by one.
19 Q. How many days transpired between the day that you arrived at the
20 fire brigade and the day that the first man was taken out of the fire
21 brigade?
22 A. On the third day.
23 Q. And who were the people that took these men out of the fire
24 brigade?
25 A. The Lukics and this other man, those who were with us, who came
Page 1131
1 with us.
2 Q. Were these men taken out at the same time?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were they taken out on the same day?
5 A. On the same day, yes.
6 Q. Do you know the identities of the people that were taken out of
7 the fire brigade on that day?
8 A. The names? Let me see. There was Sabanovic. Just a second.
9 Mustafa. Ibrahim Kesmer, Hamed Kesmer, Meho Softic, Samir Softic, Hasan
10 Gluscevic, Hasib Gluscevic, Mujo Gluscevic, Sifet Gluscevic, Sejo Hodzic,
11 Adem Kosic, Salko Suceska, Djelal Hodzic, Avdija Nuhanovic, Huso or Husein
12 Vilic, Meho Agic, Emin Agic. I think that's 18.
13 Q. I want to ask you specifically about one of these people. You
14 mentioned Mujo Gluscevic. Did you observe him when he was taken out of
15 the building?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And who were the people that took him out of the building?
18 A. The two of them, Lukic and Vasiljevic. Nobody else came. The two
19 of them would come from time to time to the fire brigade, no one else.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Mujo Gluscevic, did he have other family members present
21 in the fire brigade?
22 A. His mother, his wife, two children, his son and his daughter.
23 Q. Approximately how old was his daughter?
24 A. I think she was not older than 12 or 13, but I don't know for
25 sure. I cannot remember.
Page 1132
1 Q. And at the time her father was taken away, did either of these two
2 people you've described as taking them away, did they say anything to this
3 girl?
4 A. Vasiljevic said something, because she was crying, and then he
5 took her, he put her in his lap, and he said, "Don't cry. Your daddy will
6 be exchanged at Pale."
7 Q. And you were present when that conversation --
8 A. But never, you know.
9 Q. You were present when that conversation took place?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I was.
11 Q. How long were you kept in the fire brigade building?
12 A. I can't remember whether it was five, six, or seven days,
13 thereabouts. I don't remember. Because we were afraid at that time, and
14 ten years have gone by, so you know how it is.
15 Q. Did there come a day when you were taken out of the fire brigade
16 building?
17 A. There were convoys that had been organised beforehand for us to be
18 taken to Olovo, and when we left the fire brigade, we were first of all
19 rounded up, those from the village of Zlijeb. They didn't let us board
20 the trucks and they took us back to the fire brigade.
21 Q. Did there come a time when you were put on a truck that left the
22 fire brigade?
23 A. Later on we were put on a truck and taken to Lijeska, but once we
24 got to Lijeska, the truck broke down and we spent there the whole day.
25 And after the truck was repaired, it was taken back to Visegrad. They
Page 1133
1 said that we would be taken back to Visegrad, to the SUP building, and
2 they said, "Then let the SUP people do with them as they please."
3 Q. When you were brought back, where were you housed at this time?
4 A. In the school building, in Nova Mahala.
5 Q. And how many days did you spend in the school?
6 A. Three or four days, approximately.
7 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Witness 105. I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Will you be able to find out for us, Mr. Groome, just
9 when Ramadan was in 1992, perhaps also when Bajram was? Unless there's
10 some other evidence about Bajram. There may be.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we have an official document from the
12 Muslim society with the calendar for that year.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
14 Yes, Mr. Domazet.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, you testified today that on the third day
17 of Bajram, certain individuals came to your village and told you to
18 leave the village.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In relation to say what you have testified about today, did you
21 ever give a statement to an investigator of the OTP here in The Hague?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember saying that the event took place on the 17th of
24 June, 1992, on a Wednesday?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
Page 1134
1 Q. Is it still your testimony that the event took place on Wednesday,
2 on the 17th of June, 1992, that that was the date when you were taken to
3 the fire brigade in Visegrad?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You told us today that they started taking people away on the
6 third day after your arrival in the fire brigade.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also told us that you spent five, six, or maybe seven days in
9 the fire brigade.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. During that period of time, that is, during those five, six, or
12 seven days that you spent in the fire brigade, did you also happen to see
13 an individual whom you've referred to by Vasiljevic, apart from Lukic?
14 A. Yes. The two of them were the only ones who visited us there.
15 No one else came.
16 Q. I understand that, but I should like to know whether the two of
17 them visited you until the last day you were there.
18 A. You mean in the school? They did while we were in the fire
19 brigade but not when we were in the school.
20 Q. Yes. I was asking you about the fire brigade.
21 A. Yes. Yes. The two of them would come from time to time, just the
22 two of them.
23 Q. Could you describe for us what they were wearing when they came?
24 A. Civilian clothes. Civilian suits.
25 Q. Was there anything else, anything in particular that you would
Page 1135
1 have noticed in connection with their attire?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You testified today that you used to see the person that you
4 identified as Vasiljevic in Visegrad but that you didn't know who he was
5 until you saw him in the fire brigade. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did anyone tell you who he was while you were in the fire brigade?
8 A. Yes. All those who knew him told us that, because we were not
9 that many there.
10 Q. So it was from other persons who were in the fire brigade that you
11 heard that the person who came to see you with Lukic was Vasiljevic?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. You lived in the village of Zlijeb?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How often, how many times a year, would you go to the town of
16 Visegrad?
17 A. Not many times. I went there very rarely, maybe two times a year.
18 Q. Madam, when, if at all, did you hear about Vasiljevic's arrest and
19 transfer to The Hague?
20 A. I heard that he had been transferred from the papers.
21 Q. It was somebody else who showed you the paper? Because you are
22 illiterate.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did anyone show you the paper with an article about Vasiljevic's
25 arrest and transfer to The Hague?
Page 1136
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In that paper that you saw, was there a photograph of him as well?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you also happen to see the event on TV, either his arrest or
5 his transfer to The Hague?
6 A. Yes, only once, because I don't watch TV very often, but I did see
7 that once.
8 Q. You saw Vasiljevic on TV once when he was already in The Hague?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember that occasion that you said you saw Vasiljevic?
11 A. It was after his arrest.
12 Q. How long after his arrest was it? Do you remember that?
13 A. No, I don't. It was a Saturday.
14 Q. No, madam, I'm not asking you about the day of the week. It's
15 very difficult to remember that. I would just like to know whether this
16 was a month, two months, or three months after his arrest.
17 A. No. No. Maybe one week after that that I saw him.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, it's after 11.00. We'll go back to the
19 usual timetable. We'll adjourn now until 11.30.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
23 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, can you describe those two men for us, the
25 ones who were the only ones to come to visit you during the time you were
Page 1137
1 at the fire brigade, and you said that they were Lukic and Vasiljevic.
2 Their height, perhaps, their build, and any other characteristic features
3 that you might have noticed.
4 A. Well, you're asking a lot of me. Lukic was taller, taller than
5 Vasiljevic. Vasiljevic seemed to be shorter. I can't quite describe this
6 to you. You know, I was very much afraid. You know how it is in times
7 like that.
8 Q. Did either of those two people have a moustache or a beard?
9 A. Vasiljevic had a moustache.
10 Q. Did you note any other characteristic traits that could help us on
11 the two men?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So you only remember that the person you said was -- you named as
14 Vasiljevic had a moustache; is that right?
15 A. Yes, that's right. He had a moustache.
16 Q. When you mentioned Vasiljevic's wife, did you ever meet her or did
17 you only hear about her from others, from other people who told you about
18 her?
19 A. I would see her around. We weren't too far away from each other.
20 I used to see her as a young girl, because the village is a small one.
21 But when she married him, I didn't see her any more.
22 Q. My question was in Visegrad, did you see his wife in Visegrad, and
23 who told you that she was his wife?
24 A. No. No. I didn't see her in Visegrad. I used to know her and
25 see her around while she was an unmarried young girl, but later on I
Page 1138
1 didn't.
2 Q. Is the village of Kragujevac near your own village, the village in
3 which you lived?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Can we say that the distance isn't greater than one kilometre?
6 A. Yes, thereabouts. Perhaps a kilometre, yes.
7 Q. Did you know the villagers, the natives of that village?
8 A. Yes. I knew them all.
9 Q. Did you give any other statement except the statement you gave to
10 the investigator of The Hague Tribunal about these events?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So the only statement that you made about the events of which you
13 were an eyewitness you gave to the investigator of The Hague Tribunal; is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. Do you remember when you gave the statement? Because not much
17 time has gone by since.
18 A. Yes, not much time has gone by.
19 Q. Do you remember a part of your statement, the following part of
20 your statement, and is it true and correct when you said that when you
21 were shown an album with 12 photographs, a photo array with 12
22 photographs, that in the statement to the investigator you said the
23 following:
24 "I think that I could recognise --"
25 Just wait for me to finish, please, witness.
Page 1139
1 A. I am listening to you. I'm listening to everything you're saying.
2 Q. Thank you. "I think that I could recognise Mitar Vasiljevic if I
3 were to see him again. You have shown me a series of 12 photographs
4 marked with numbers ranging from 1 to 12. Picture number 3 seems to me to
5 be someone I know. I think he is from Kragujevac, but I do not remember
6 his name."
7 Do you remember having given a statement of that kind to the
8 investigator and when he showed you the photographs?
9 A. Yes, I remember. He had a moustache when he was at the fire
10 brigade and then I couldn't actually -- but I remember seeing him and I
11 remember saying all that.
12 Q. So you did say that to the investigator of The Hague Tribunal; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you said that you thought the person was from the village of
16 Kragujevac --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- did you have in mind a particular person from the village whom
19 you said you knew well, because you said you knew the people from the
20 village very well.
21 A. Well, no. I didn't have anyone in mind, but I do know the people
22 from Kragujevac, and I thought, well, perhaps he might have been in
23 Kragujevac. That's just what came to my mind. But I can't say that he's
24 from Kragujevac. I didn't know where he was from when the person who came
25 to the fire brigade.
Page 1140
1 Q. Yes, I understand. But from your statement, it is clear that the
2 person which you indicated on picture number 3 that you thought you
3 recognised, you didn't say that it was actually Vasiljevic, whom you
4 mentioned several times in your statement. You mention a man with the
5 surname of Vasiljevic several times in the statement before that. Is that
6 right?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
9 questions for you, Witness.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Groome?
12 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, madam, very much for giving evidence.
14 We're grateful to you for the evidence you've given. You are now free to
15 leave.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE HUNT: Whilst we're waiting for the other witness,
19 Mr. Groome, I've seen the memorandum of service in relation to the
20 subpoenas that you sought. Have you seen them yet?
21 MR. GROOME: No, I haven't, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I think that the conditions that they seek to lay
23 down may be a little difficult for the Tribunal to provide, but you better
24 have a look at them, and when you have, we'll discuss them again.
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
Page 1141
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE HUNT: Now, madam, we want you to take a solemn
4 declaration. The court officer there will show you on a card the terms of
5 the declaration which you should make.
6 WITNESS: WITNESS VG101
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 [Witness testifies via videolink].
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, madam. Sit down, pleas.
12 MR. GROOME: Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the pseudonym sheet for
14 this witness be placed in front of the witness at this time and I'd ask
15 that it be marked as an exhibit.
16 JUDGE HUNT: The pseudonym sheet for Witness VG101 will be Exhibit
17 P86 and it will be under seal.
18 Examined by Mr. Groome:
19 Q. Good morning, Witness 101.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. I'd ask you to sit back and relax. I'm just going to ask you some
22 questions. I'd ask you to look at the sheet in front of you. Is that
23 your name on the top line?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. And on the second line, is that your date of birth?
Page 1142
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. For the purposes of concealing your identity, we will refer to you
3 as Witness 101, and I would ask you, if you need to refer to any of the
4 other people listed on that sheet, please use their number. Do you
5 understand?
6 A. Yes. I've been told that.
7 Q. Witness 101, where are you from?
8 A. I am from Visegrad.
9 Q. And what particular village?
10 THE INTERPRETER: The last two words from inaudible.
11 A. Koritnik.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. And can you tell the Court what your educational background is?
14 A. A caterer.
15 Q. And what's the highest level of schooling that you attended?
16 A. Secondary school, secondary school for catering.
17 Q. And would you please tell us your ethnicity.
18 A. A Muslim.
19 Q. I want to draw your attention back to 1992. Can you tell us,
20 without mentioning their names, who were you living with at the time in
21 Koritnik?
22 A. I lived with my sister, my mother, two brothers, and their two
23 children.
24 Q. I'd ask you to look at your sheet in front of you. Is the witness
25 number VG78 your sister?
Page 1143
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did your family operate a small farm?
3 A. Yes, they did have one.
4 Q. Can you describe for the Court approximately how many houses are
5 in this village of Koritnik?
6 A. About 20.
7 Q. And approximately how many people all together lived in the
8 village of Koritnik?
9 A. I can't give you the exact number. There were quite a few, but
10 not all of us were there at the time we left for Visegrad.
11 Q. Can you describe for the Court the ethnic mix of the Koritnik
12 community?
13 A. Yes. It was a mixed village. There were Serb houses and Muslim
14 houses as well.
15 Q. Prior to the spring of 1992, were there any problems between the
16 Muslims and the Serbs living in Koritnik?
17 A. Well, yes, there were some.
18 Q. Can you describe what they were?
19 A. You mean before, at the beginning of the war, or before?
20 Q. Before the war began, were there problems between the Muslim
21 population and the Serb population of Koritnik?
22 A. No. No. Not before, never.
23 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the 13th of June, 1992. Do
24 you recall that day?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1144
1 Q. Can you describe what happened on that day?
2 A. Yes, I can. A neighbour from the neighbouring village of Loznica
3 came. His name was Radomir Grujic. And he said we had to leave the
4 village and that we should come to a place called Greben on the 14th of
5 June, that a bus would come to us, that we shouldn't be afraid and that
6 someone of the Muslim nationality would be with us and that we should go
7 to Kladanj.
8 Q. Did you know Radomir Grujic before this day?
9 A. Yes, I knew him very well.
10 Q. And was Mr. Grujic alone or with other people?
11 A. He came alone.
12 Q. And did he give you a reason for why you had to leave your
13 village?
14 A. Well, he said we had to, that the Serbs from the village of
15 Prelovo were exerting pressure on them and that they said that they would
16 search our houses and that they couldn't guarantee our safety if we
17 stayed.
18 Q. Did Mr. Grujic tell you where you were going to be taken to?
19 A. Yes, he did. He said we were being taken to Kladanj, in a convoy,
20 that there would be a number of buses, at least six buses in the convoy,
21 and that we were going to Kladanj.
22 Q. And at that time was Kladanj considered a town in Muslim
23 territory?
24 A. Yes. Yes, it was.
25 Q. Now, you stated that you were told to go to a place called
Page 1145
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Page 1146
1 Greben. Where is Greben in relation to your village, Koritnik?
2 A. Well, Greben -- you can reach Greben in a half an hour's walk. It
3 is on the road to Visegrad. That's where the bus station was, in Greben.
4 It's a half hour's walk.
5 Q. And on the 14th of June, did you walk to the village of Greben?
6 A. Yes. We started out from the village early so that we could be in
7 Greben by 8.00.
8 Q. And approximately how many people left the village of Koritnik
9 that morning on the way to Greben?
10 A. About 42. I think that's how many we were.
11 Q. And can you tell us what was the ethnic mix of this group of 42
12 people that left Koritnik on that day?
13 A. They were all Muslims.
14 Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Grujic's instruction applied to
15 all people of Koritnik or just the Muslims of Koritnik?
16 A. Just the Muslims.
17 Q. And when you left the village, did the Serb people of Koritnik
18 remain behind?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. Are you able to tell us approximately what time you set out from
21 Koritnik for the village of Greben?
22 A. I think we set out at about 7.00 so that we should be there at
23 exactly 8.00, to arrive before the buses did.
24 Q. And did there come a time when you did arrive at Greben?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1147
1 Q. And did you see a bus there?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Had Mr. Grujic said that he would come to Greben as well?
4 A. Yes, he did, but he wasn't there.
5 Q. How long did you remain in the village of Greben?
6 A. I don't know exactly, but we stayed there a long time.
7 Q. And did a bus ever come?
8 A. No. No, it didn't.
9 Q. Witness 101, I'm going to ask you to describe for the Court if a
10 person were to walk from Koritnik to Visegrad, could you please tell us
11 the villages they would pass through in the order that they would pass
12 through those villages, beginning from Koritnik.
13 A. Yes, I can do that. You pass through Srpsko Selo, Koritnik,
14 Greben, Sase, Kosovo Polje, Kalate, and then you come to Visegrad.
15 Q. I'd ask you to repeat the name of the place above Kosovo Polje.
16 A. Sase.
17 Q. Did there come a time when you left the village of Greben?
18 A. Yes. We were there for a long time and then a neighbour, a Serb,
19 his name was Milorad, he was from Greben. I think he was nicknamed
20 Micun. And he stood around with us for a time and then he said that he
21 didn't dare stand there any more and that we should go, because the buses
22 probably wouldn't arrive.
23 Q. And did he suggest to you where you should go?
24 A. To go to Visegrad.
25 Q. And did you go in the direction of Visegrad?
Page 1148
1 A. We were there for a little while longer and then my neighbour,
2 Ilija Gavrilovic and Radomir Grujic went before us, went to Visegrad ahead
3 of us, with a relative of mine, and his father, rather. And then they
4 came back and they said, "Come on, you Turks. You come to where you
5 should go."
6 Q. Now, this Radomir Grujic that you're mentioning now, is he the
7 person who initially told you you had to leave Koritnik?
8 A. No. No. He was a younger man. Dragomir. Dragomir Grujic. And
9 Radomir Djuric. Radomir Djuric told us we had to leave the village, and
10 this was Dragomir Grujic. They were two different people.
11 Q. What was the ethnicity of this second person that you're
12 mentioning now, Dragomir?
13 A. He's a Serb, but he lived in Dalmacija for a time, so that's why
14 he came to visit his father. His parents were divorced, so he lived for a
15 time with his mother in Dalmacija and then he came to live with his
16 father in Koritnik.
17 Q. You've also mentioned the name Ilija Gavrilovic. What was his
18 ethnicity?
19 A. Also a Serb.
20 Q. And can you tell us precisely what did these two men do in
21 relation to the group of people from Koritnik?
22 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand what you mean.
23 Q. What exactly did these two men do when they met with the group of
24 Koritnik -- the group of people from Koritnik?
25 A. They got out of the car and said, "You Turks all go to where you
Page 1149
1 have to go." Then they switched on the motor and went to Koritnik again.
2 Q. Did you recognise the car that these two men were driving?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And whose car did you recognise it to be?
5 A. It was a car belonging to one of my relatives from the village.
6 It was a red --
7 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't catch the name of the car.
8 A. Volkswagen. A red Volkswagen.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. I'm going to ask you to describe: The group from Koritnik, can
11 you describe what the composition of the group was as far as the age of
12 the group and whether they were men and women?
13 A. There were both men and women there, young women, girls,
14 children. There was even a three-day-old baby.
15 Q. Do you know whose baby that was?
16 A. It was the baby from a woman from the village.
17 Q. Do you know her name? Do you recall her name?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I do. Her name was Sadeta.
19 Q. Now, the group from Koritnik, were they carrying anything as they
20 walked?
21 A. Yes. We had a lot of things with us, and that's why we were
22 slow. We couldn't move on very fast.
23 Q. Can you describe what types of things the people were carrying and
24 how they carried them?
25 A. Well, mostly we had our clothes and our suitcases. Some people
Page 1150
1 carried other things as well, like dishes and stuff like that.
2 Q. At the time you left Koritnik, did you believe that you would ever
3 return to Koritnik?
4 A. Yes. That's what our neighbours guaranteed to us, the neighbours
5 who came to us. They said that they would look after our belongings and
6 that they would be back very soon.
7 Q. Did you ever learn why it was that the bus never came to the
8 village of Greben?
9 A. When we arrived in the village of --
10 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the name?
11 A. -- a Serb from the village of Kalate told us that the bus had
12 indeed started but that it broke down somewhere near Banja, so it was not
13 possible for the bus to reach us. It was out of order.
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. I'd ask you to repeat the name of the village that you said at the
16 beginning of your answer. The interpreters missed it.
17 A. Haluge.
18 Q. Now, as you left Greben, what would be the next village that you
19 would come to on the way down?
20 A. Sase.
21 Q. On the way down to Sase did you ever see any buses on the road?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How long did it take you to go from Greben to Sase?
24 A. It's nearby, maybe a half hour on foot.
25 Q. What did you do when you arrived in Sase?
Page 1151
1 A. We stayed there for quite some time and then Spahic, this Serb
2 man, told us that we should go to Visegrad as soon as possible, that he
3 would go ahead of us to guarantee our safety in a car. So he left
4 sometime before we did, but we never saw him again
5 Q. Now, when you left Sase, did any other people join this group?
6 A. Yes, from the village of Sase.
7 Q. And approximately how many people from the village of Sase joined
8 the group?
9 A. Five. Five new people came.
10 Q. Are you able to approximate the time of day that it is when you
11 leave Sase for Visegrad?
12 A. No. I don't remember the exact time. But we stayed there for
13 quite a while. That is where we stayed longest, in Greben and in Sase.
14 Q. Now, walking from Sase to Visegrad, would you have passed through
15 the village of Kosovo Polje? Did you hear my question?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE HUNT: There was a break in the transmission. You could see
18 it.
19 MR. GROOME:
20 Q. As you walked from Sase to Visegrad, did you pass through the
21 village of Kosovo Polje?
22 A. Yes, we did.
23 Q. On your way down to Visegrad, did you at any time see a bus on the
24 road that you were walking on?
25 A. A bus from Centrotrans carrying a large number of people probably
Page 1152
1 from the village of Vlahovici passed us on the way.
2 Q. And when you say "Centrotrans," is that the name of a bus company?
3 A. Yes. Yes, a bus company, a transport company.
4 Q. Did you recognise anybody on this bus?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you later learn that there was a person from Koritnik on this
7 bus?
8 A. Yes. She stayed behind after we left. She was quite old. She
9 couldn't leave. Then they put her on the bus and she was on this bus.
10 Q. And did you also learn where she was brought on that bus?
11 A. Yes. She was first in Kladanj, then in Visoko, later on in
12 Sarajevo, and she died two years ago of natural causes, in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Now, did there come a time when this group did eventually reach
14 Visegrad?
15 A. Yes. I don't know exactly what time it was, but we did reach
16 Visegrad.
17 Q. And where was the first place that you went in Visegrad when you
18 got to the town?
19 A. As we entered the town, we were met by some Serb policemen who
20 were standing in front of the SUP building. They were shouting at us.
21 And they told us to continue down the street towards the new hotel.
22 Q. And by the SUP building, do you mean the police headquarters?
23 A. Yes. Yes. The police were there.
24 Q. Did the entire group go with you to the police headquarters?
25 A. No. We didn't actually go to the SUP. We went to the new hotel,
Page 1153
1 to the area outside the new hotel.
2 Q. And did the entire group go to this area?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. Where is the new hotel in relation to the old bridge?
5 A. It is next to the old bridge.
6 Q. And do you know the name of this new hotel?
7 A. That's how it was referred to, the new hotel, Novi Hotel.
8 Q. And can you describe to us precisely where you were in relation in
9 to the hotel?
10 A. In front of the hotel, at the entrance to the hotel.
11 Q. And would you describe for the Court what is in the front of the
12 hotel?
13 A. There was a taxi stand opposite the entrance of the hotel, and we
14 were standing there, between the taxi stand and the hotel. We stayed
15 there for a while and after some time we moved to the garden of the hotel.
16 Q. And where is the garden of the hotel?
17 A. Near the bridge.
18 Q. Can you describe, aside from this group -- I'm sorry. I
19 interrupted you. Do you want to repeat your answer?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Aside from the group from Koritnik and from Sase, were there other
22 people on the street at that time?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did something happen while you were standing by the hotel?
25 A. We were lined up there, two by two. They singled out three or
Page 1154
1 four men and told them to go to a nearby village, and they were told that
2 some people were killed there and their bodies had to be buried, that they
3 were Muslims.
4 Q. Would you describe who you're referring to when you say "they"?
5 A. Those police officers, the ones who had lined us up. They
6 selected some men and told them to go to the village of Nezvci, where
7 there were some killed Muslims whose bodies had to be buried.
8 Q. How many policemen were present at that time, approximately?
9 A. Three or four.
10 Q. And how were they dressed?
11 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.
12 Q. Aside from these -- these policemen, do you know what their
13 ethnicity was?
14 A. Yes, I know.
15 Q. What was it?
16 A. They were Serbs.
17 Q. Were there other people of Serb ethnicity in the area where you
18 were in front of the hotel?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Approximately how many?
21 A. I don't know exactly how many, but there were a lot of people
22 there who were coming in and out of this hotel.
23 Q. Were any of these people armed with weapons?
24 A. Yes. All of them were armed.
25 Q. And can you describe generally the dress of these people?
Page 1155
1 A. Some wore camouflage uniforms and some wore the former JNA
2 uniforms.
3 Q. Did there come a time when somebody arrived in a car?
4 A. Yes. While we were standing in that garden we were being verbally
5 abused and mistreated. They argued about where we should be sent to.
6 Then a car came and stopped near the garden and Mitar Vasiljevic came out
7 of the car and he told them to release us, to let us go, and that we
8 should go to Pionirska Street, where there were some empty houses, to
9 Mahala.
10 Q. Was this person you're referring to as Mitar Vasiljevic alone or
11 with other people in the car?
12 A. I only saw him.
13 Q. And had you seen this person at other times?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'd ask you to describe for the Court how it was you knew this
16 person.
17 A. I didn't know him personally, but I knew him by sight. When I was
18 a child, when I was in the elementary school, people knew Mitar as an
19 alcoholic, and that is how we children used to see him. He would pass
20 by. But then there were many other people who knew him very well while he
21 was working as a waiter in Visegrad, so I knew that it was him.
22 Q. You said that you first knew of him in elementary school. Are you
23 able to approximate for us approximately how many years you knew him at
24 the time that you saw him this day in 1992?
25 A. Many years, because we went to school in Prelovo and he's from the
Page 1156
1 area of Prelovo, from a village whose name I don't know. So he would pass
2 by. He would pass through Prelovo and we would see him when we went to
3 school.
4 Q. Did you recognise him immediately on this day?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Did there come a time in March of this year that you were asked to
7 view a set of photographs by an investigator of the Office of the
8 Prosecutor?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you recognise any of those photographs?
11 A. Yes, I recognised Mitar Vasiljevic.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that we go into private
13 session briefly to -- I'd ask that that exhibit be placed on the ELMO.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We'll go into private session.
15 [Private session]
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1157
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Witness 101, I would ask you to describe as best you remember what
17 was this person, what was Mitar Vasiljevic wearing on this day?
18 A. He was wearing a former Yugoslav People's Army uniform and a large
19 black hat on his head and a black raincoat.
20 Q. Was there anything covering or disguising his face?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I'd ask you to tell us again what it was he said, but please use
23 the words that he said as precisely as you're able.
24 A. He said that we should go to the Mahala settlement, to Pionirska
25 Street, to abandoned Muslim houses.
Page 1158
1 Q. You mentioned earlier that some of the people, other people in the
2 area, were shouting insults to the group. I'd ask you to describe what it
3 was that they said.
4 A. They called us balijas. They cursed us, mentioning Alija, our
5 state, telling us where are now Murat and Avdija to defend you.
6 Q. Were there Serb police officers present at this time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And were there paramilitaries there as well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'd ask you to describe as best you're able the car that Mitar
11 Vasiljevic arrived in in front of the hotel.
12 A. No. I don't know what car it was. I didn't see the car.
13 Q. This place that Mr. Vasiljevic instructed you to go, were you
14 familiar with this area?
15 A. Yes. Yes, I am.
16 Q. And how are you familiar with this area?
17 A. I knew the area because my relatives lived there. They had houses
18 there.
19 Q. And how frequently would you visit this area?
20 A. Not very often.
21 Q. Did there come a time when you left the new hotel and went in the
22 direction of Pionirska Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Approximately how much time transpired between the time
25 Mr. Vasiljevic instructed you to go to Pionirska Street and the time you
Page 1159
1 actually left?
2 A. We left immediately.
3 Q. Did Mr. Vasiljevic say anything else to you regarding going to
4 Pionirska Street at that time?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did the entire group go to Pionirska Street?
7 A. Yes, they did.
8 Q. And can you approximate the distance for the Court between the New
9 Hotel and Pionirska Street?
10 A. I don't know exactly, but it took us about 15 minutes to get there
11 on foot.
12 Q. Would it be fair to say that the group was still carrying its bags
13 and belongings that it had carried from Koritnik?
14 A. Yes. Yes, we still had everything with us.
15 Q. Where is the first place that you went -- I'll withdraw that.
16 When you arrived at Pionirska Street, where is the first place that you
17 went?
18 A. We stood on the street for a while. We didn't know where to go.
19 While we were standing there, Mitar came to us. There were quite a few of
20 us. We needed maybe two or three houses. But he rounded us up and he
21 told us to go to one and single house and to be there, all of us.
22 Q. And how did he arrive at that time?
23 A. By car. He came immediately after us.
24 Q. And can you tell us, using the words that he used, what it was he
25 said to you and the group?
Page 1160
1 A. Yes, I remember. He said that we should go to Kladanj, that we
2 could no longer live together and that once in Kladanj we should select
3 the houses as the houses in our area and that we -- that it would take us
4 six hours to get to Kladanj, that no one would harm us, and he gave some
5 kind of certificate for our safety to one of the men, that should we --
6 should the police control us, that we should show them our identity cards
7 and that we should not be afraid, that nobody would do us any harm.
8 Q. Did he direct you to a specific house on Pionirska Street?
9 A. Yes, he did. He told us to enter one particular house there.
10 Q. And do you know the name of the owner of that house?
11 A. No. I think that his name was Ragib, but I didn't know the
12 person.
13 Q. Are you familiar with the school on Pionirska Street?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you describe where the house was that you were directed to go
16 to in relation to the school on Pionirska Street?
17 A. The school was on the right and the house was further down, on the
18 left side, almost at the very beginning of the street, Pionirska Street.
19 Q. Now, did you go to the house that you were directed to go to?
20 A. Yes. We all entered the house.
21 Q. You testified a moment ago about Mr. Vasiljevic giving somebody a
22 piece of paper. Were you present when that occurred?
23 A. Yes. Yes, I was. We were all standing around him. He was in the
24 middle and he told us to come closer, that he had something to tell us.
25 So we were standing around him. And I saw that he gave someone a piece of
Page 1161
1 paper, but I don't know what was written on the paper.
2 Q. Do you know the name of the person who he gave that piece of paper
3 to?
4 A. I can't remember his name. To one of the men.
5 Q. And again, using the words that Mr. Vasiljevic used, what did he
6 say when he handed that piece of paper to the person?
7 A. He said that when the police came, we should show them the piece
8 of paper that he, Mitar, had given us. He said, "Just show this piece of
9 paper to the police and nobody would do you any harm."
10 Q. Did you go inside that house?
11 A. Yes, we did.
12 Q. Was there anybody in the house when you entered it?
13 A. No, nobody. Nobody was inside.
14 Q. Was the door locked when you entered the house?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What was the first thing that you did when you went into the
17 house?
18 A. We went inside. There were a lot of us. We divided ourselves up
19 into three rooms and all sat there. It was raining, so we were wet. Some
20 people changed their clothes, but we sat around in the house mostly.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm about to move into an entirely
22 different area. It might be an appropriate place to break.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Why?
24 MR. GROOME: Okay. I'll keep going.
25 JUDGE HUNT: We've only been going for an hour. We've got another
Page 1162
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Page 1163
1 half hour to go.
2 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. I thought we were breaking at 12.30.
3 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know why.
4 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry.
5 Q. Did there come a time when you went to check on your relatives
6 that lived in the Pionirska Street area?
7 A. Not me, but two neighbours, female neighbours, VG013 and another
8 woman with her. They went to their relations' house (redacted)
9 (redacted) They found them killed in that house.
10 Q. Did you know this couple, this (redacted) ?
11 A. Yes. They lived in Koritnik, but they had left when the war
12 began. They went to stay with their sons in Pionirska Street, in his
13 house there.
14 Q. And approximately what age was this couple?
15 A. They were almost 60.
16 Q. And did the two people that you've described as having going up,
17 did they describe the condition of these two people when they returned?
18 A. Yes. They said that they had been killed. The man was living [As
19 interpreted] on the sofa and the woman was lying in front of the fire.
20 But they had both been killed.
21 Q. Were they able to tell whether they had been killed that day or at
22 an earlier time?
23 A. Probably earlier on, and they had probably been lying there for
24 quite a number of days.
25 Q. Now, returning to the house that you went into, did Mr. Vasiljevic
Page 1164
1 remain at that house at that time?
2 A. No. He left.
3 Q. Approximately how long was he there at this time?
4 A. I didn't understand the question.
5 Q. From the time that he arrived on Pionirska Street this first time,
6 approximately how long did he remain there?
7 A. A short time. He told us to accommodate ourselves in the house
8 and then he left shortly afterwards.
9 Q. Did there come a time later in the day when other people arrived
10 at the house?
11 A. Yes, they did. Milan Lukic came later on and three men with him,
12 but I wasn't able to recognise the others. I recognised Lukic very well.
13 I knew him.
14 Q. Can you describe for the Court how you knew Milan Lukic?
15 A. I knew him because we went to primary school together and
16 secondary school. He was just one year older than me, in an older form,
17 so I knew him very well.
18 Q. Now, how many other men were there aside from Milan Lukic?
19 A. Three more men.
20 Q. I'd ask you as best you're able to describe each of these men.
21 A. There was one man with a moustache, curly hair. The second one
22 was a fair, tall one. And the third one was the youngest of them.
23 Q. Are you able to approximate his age?
24 A. Perhaps 19 or 20. He was quite a bit older than the other two.
25 Q. And were these men armed?
Page 1165
1 A. Yes, they were, all of them.
2 Q. Can you tell us what happened at that time?
3 A. While we were there, they stormed into the room, Milan Lukic
4 first. They bashed in the door with their feet. They said, "Your money,
5 your gold, all on the table. If we find anybody hiding them, these
6 objects, they will be killed." So we gave up all the gold and money we
7 had. Then the other man with the moustache said that we had to go into
8 the next room with him, to be searched, that he would search us to see if
9 somebody had kept anything back and kept something hidden in a pocket,
10 and if he found anything on somebody that they would be killed. He said
11 that kind of thing. And he said, "If we find anything like that in the
12 house, we would be to blame." So they looted everything off us. They
13 took everything that we had.
14 Q. Did they go through the bags that you had carried with you?
15 A. Yes, they did. They looked through everything.
16 Q. Did there come a time when the people in the house were forced to
17 take their clothing off to be searched?
18 A. Yes, they were, so that they could see that we hadn't hidden
19 anything anywhere, sewn it into a pocket or anything like that. We had to
20 take our clothes off so that they could see whether there was anything
21 left on us, hidden.
22 Q. I would ask you to -- well, were any people taken out of the house
23 at this time?
24 A. Yes, they were, two women.
25 Q. Without telling us their names, did you speak -- did there come a
Page 1166
1 time when these women returned to the house?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. Did you speak with one of these women?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And what did she tell you about what happened when she was out of
6 that house?
7 A. She told me that they had raped her and that they had told her
8 that not only she would end up like this, but all the rest of us too, and
9 that had she not done something, this wouldn't have happened to her.
10 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't understand the word the witness used,
11 had she done something.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. I'd ask you to repeat the last part of your answer, please.
14 A. He said -- she said that she had been raped, and they told her
15 that not only she would be raped but that our turn would come, for all of
16 us, that we would all be raped. And why didn't she disguise herself or
17 put something on her face, some colouring on her face so that she would
18 not be raped had she disguised herself. The second victim didn't tell me
19 anything. Lukic took her out. And he said, "Look, look. Where were you
20 at half past 2.00?" He put his arm around her and took her out of the
21 house.
22 Q. And did he return with her?
23 A. Yes. She came back. She lay down. She was crying, but she
24 didn't tell me anything.
25 Q. And approximately how long was this woman out of the house?
Page 1167
1 A. I don't know exactly, but she did stay. And they took out another
2 woman, but the child was crying, so they took it back from the staircase.
3 Q. After the people in the house were searched, did any of the people
4 have watches at that time, after the search?
5 A. I think that the people who had watches, they took from them. I'm
6 not sure they did, because we didn't know what the time was, actually. We
7 didn't know what the time was. I don't remember that anybody had a watch.
8 Q. Did there come a time when Mr. Lukic and these other three men
9 left the house now?
10 A. Yes. When they did that, when they collected up everything and
11 left, the first one sitting next to the door, they said that nobody must
12 leave the house, that they were going to have some meat on the spit
13 somewhere and that they would return. They were going to have something
14 to eat.
15 Q. And by "meat on the spit," did they mean roasted meat?
16 A. Yes. Yes, that's it.
17 Q. Are you able to approximate for us how long Mr. Lukic and the
18 three other men were in the house at this time?
19 A. I don't know exactly, but they were there a long time while they
20 looted everything, because there were quite a lot of us, so they had to
21 search us all and it took a long time to collect up all the things. And
22 it was dusk when they left.
23 Q. Are you able to approximate the time that elapsed between the time
24 Mitar Vasiljevic left the house and Milan Lukic arrived at the house?
25 A. Not long. Perhaps an hour, maybe even less. They came quickly,
Page 1168
1 quickly after Mitar.
2 Q. Did there come a time later on this day that some of these men
3 returned?
4 A. You mean the Serbs?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes. They returned that evening. I don't know exactly what time
7 it was, but they came back to transfer us from that house to another
8 house, allegedly.
9 Q. And who was it that returned?
10 A. The same Chetniks who were there before: Lukic, Mitar, the man
11 with the moustache, tall, fair. The same Chetniks who were there the
12 first time.
13 Q. And which member of this group spoke to the group inside the
14 house?
15 A. They came in front of the window with a car and used a big
16 flashlight to flash the door and window, and the first people sitting next
17 to the door were told that we should move from that big house to another
18 big house, that we needn't take our belongings with us because we wouldn't
19 be needing them. They even said, "You needn't take your footwear either.
20 Just move into the other house."
21 Q. The house -- the first house that you were in, were there lights
22 on at this time in that house?
23 A. No. It was dark.
24 Q. Are you familiar with the creek that runs in the area of Pionirska
25 Street?
Page 1169
1 A. Yes, I am.
2 Q. Can you describe where this second house is in relation to that
3 creek?
4 A. Right by the creek.
5 Q. When you saw Milan Lukic at this time, can you describe precisely
6 where he was in relation to the house?
7 A. He was at the place where there was some light, where the light
8 was.
9 Q. And where was that light? Can you tell us where was that light?
10 A. It was nearby, in front of the house, by the creek.
11 Q. In addition to that light that you're describing now, were there
12 other sources of light at that time?
13 A. Yes. They had large flashlights which they used to light up the
14 place. When they came out of the house, they were able to see by the
15 light of the flashlight.
16 Q. Where was Mr. Vasiljevic the first time you saw him at this
17 night-time? Where was he the first time you saw him?
18 A. In front of the door of the big house where we were put up.
19 Q. That's the house that is --
20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, just to avoid any suggestion later that
21 you haven't done this properly, previously, at page 54, line 9, if you can
22 get that on the screen, you'll see how she described the people who came
23 back.
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Bearing in mind that there is some issue in this case
Page 1170
1 about somebody else with a similar name, I think it would be preferable
2 before we go any further that you sorted that one out.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. I would ask you to, once again, tell us the identity of the people
5 who arrived at night, using their first and last name.
6 A. Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan Lukic. I didn't know the others, their
7 names.
8 Q. And again, where was Mitar Vasiljevic the first time you saw him
9 at this time?
10 A. In front of the door.
11 Q. And is this the house on Pionirska Street or the house by the
12 creek?
13 A. In Pionirska Street, where the house he put us in.
14 Q. And was there anything covering his face or disguising his face at
15 this time?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And approximately how far away were you from him?
18 A. Nearby. I had to go out, face to face, when you go out of the
19 house.
20 Q. Could you have touched him if you wanted to?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, can you describe for us what was the approximate distance
23 between the first house you were in and the second house that you were
24 directed to enter?
25 A. Well, 50 metres, something like that.
Page 1171
1 Q. And can you describe for us how the group moved from one house to
2 the other?
3 A. I don't know exactly how they went out, who was the first.
4 Someone wanted to pick up some things, others -- how many went out, I
5 don't know exactly.
6 Q. Did the people inside the house move as a group or individually?
7 A. One by one, sometimes two.
8 Q. Was your sister with you at this time?
9 A. Yes, she was.
10 Q. And had your sister been in the first house you were placed in
11 earlier in the day?
12 A. Yes. We were all together.
13 Q. Did you walk down towards that second house by the creek?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And walking down towards that house, can you describe who, if any,
16 of these men you saw again?
17 A. Yes. I saw a man with a moustache, and Mitar, fair and tall, and
18 Milan Lukic.
19 Q. And would you tell us the last name of the person you're referring
20 to as Mitar?
21 A. Vasiljevic.
22 Q. And just to avoid confusion, I'd ask you to always refer to both
23 his first and last name when you refer to him, please.
24 JUDGE HUNT: The reference there to "fair and tall," I think
25 that's to the man with the moustache, but I think you had better clear
Page 1172
1 that one up.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. You've referred to somebody --
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE HUNT: That's why you had better clear it up, I think.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. The person you're describing as fair and tall, did that person
8 have a moustache?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So you're describing two people when you say "fair and tall" and
11 "a person with a moustache," is that correct?
12 A. The man with the moustache had curly dark hair and this other man
13 was tall, with no moustache, and he was fair, had fair or blond hair.
14 Q. And I would ask you to describe precisely where Mr. Mitar
15 Vasiljevic was standing this time when you see him.
16 A. In front of the door.
17 Q. The door --
18 A. Of the house.
19 Q. Is this -- can you describe which house you're referring to now?
20 A. Where we were put up, the big house.
21 Q. Did there come a time when you saw him at another location that
22 night?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where was he at this time?
25 A. The place where the light was.
Page 1173
1 Q. And where were you at the time that you saw him at the place where
2 the light was?
3 A. I fled behind a shed.
4 Q. Approximately how far were you from him at the time you saw him
5 under the light or by the light?
6 A. Fifteen or twenty steps, perhaps.
7 Q. And I'd ask you to describe how you fled.
8 A. As we were coming out of the house, as the victim had told me, the
9 one that was raped, that they had told her that when they come
10 back, we would all fare the same way, I thought they had come back to do
11 the same, and I never, ever thought they would kill us all like that. So
12 I decided to flee and let them kill me. I didn't know -- I wasn't sure
13 whether I would succeed in escaping or not, but I decided to try, just to
14 avoid falling into their hands. I wasn't afraid of dying; I was afraid of
15 being raped.
16 Q. Where was your sister at this time?
17 A. My sister was right behind me, behind my back. I threw myself
18 behind the shed. She came right behind me. I heard her. But I was
19 afraid they might notice me. They could have captured us again. We
20 jumped behind a shed and we were there in the creek for a brief period of
21 time, perhaps five or ten minutes, and then we escaped down the creek into
22 the woods.
23 Q. Before you fled, were you able to see some of the group from
24 Koritnik actually enter into this house by the creek?
25 A. No, I couldn't see the house. I only saw that area where the
Page 1174
1 light was and where they were standing, whereas the entrance to the house
2 and the house, I couldn't see.
3 Q. And can you describe for us where is this shed in relation to the
4 house by the creek?
5 A. To the left, on the left-hand side.
6 Q. And approximately how far away?
7 A. I can't say exactly, because I didn't approach the house. I don't
8 know how far it was.
9 Q. And are you able to approximate how far the shed was from the big
10 house, the house that you first stayed in?
11 A. Yes. It was a very brief distance, a short way between the big
12 house and the shed. I don't know. Let me say -- well, perhaps -- I can't
13 remember exactly, but it was nearby.
14 Q. How long did you remain behind that shed?
15 A. Not long, because I was afraid that they hadn't noticed me. And
16 we stayed there perhaps for ten minutes. We didn't know where to flee.
17 Wherever we went, they were. We weren't able to pass through Visegrad.
18 We didn't know where to go, which way we could go, so we went down the
19 creek into the water.
20 Q. And when you went into the creek, can you describe which direction
21 you went on the creek?
22 A. We went towards -- in the direction of the creek. We went down
23 the creek. We went along the creek, straight along the creek. Because it
24 was dark, it was raining, we couldn't orient ourselves, orientate
25 ourselves.
Page 1175
1 Q. As you were walking down the creek, did you hear anything?
2 A. When we got out of the creek, we went into the woods. The only
3 important thing was to escape, to go into the woods as far as possible.
4 We heard shots coming from the direction of that house, from the house by
5 the creek.
6 Q. And are you able to approximate for us how long you heard these
7 shots?
8 A. Well, we could hear them while we were fleeing, and we thought
9 that where the light was, as they were coming out of the big
10 house -- because I could hear the shooting, I thought that they were
11 killing them as they were coming out of the house one by one, and I
12 thought that they were killing them there and then, where the light was,
13 where this lighted space was.
14 Q. From where you are at this point, are you able to see either the
15 house by the creek or the shed?
16 A. No. No, I wasn't able to see anything.
17 Q. Did you hear anything else other than the shots being fired?
18 A. No. We just heard the shots.
19 Q. And were you at some point able to escape to a safe place?
20 A. We roamed around the forest, the woods, the whole night. We
21 didn't nowhere to go. We didn't know the area. We just went on ahead to
22 escape, to go as far into the woods as possible, because the woods were
23 the safest place for us at that time. We thought we would be able to hide
24 in the woods.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I suggest we break there?
Page 1176
1 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly. 2.30 we'll resume. We'll adjourn now.
2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
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Page 1177
1 --- On resuming at 2.28 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 101.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. I want to take you back to the time that you and the other people
7 are in the big house, the first house that you went into, and I want to
8 ask you the following questions: At that time, did anyone other than the
9 people you've mentioned here today come to that house or enter that
10 house? Were you able to hear me?
11 A. Yes. Yes, I can hear you, but I don't ...
12 Q. Let me repeat the question, then. I'm referring to the big house,
13 the first house that you went to that day. Other than the people that you
14 have described for us here in your testimony, did anybody else come to
15 that house or enter that house on that day?
16 A. No.
17 Q. The front door of this house, or the entrance door to that house,
18 can you describe precisely for the Chamber where it's located on the
19 house?
20 A. The door was somewhere in the middle.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness, I'm
22 afraid.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. I'd ask you to repeat your answer. The interpreters are having
25 difficulty hearing you?
Page 1178
1 A. The door was situated somewhere at the beginning, at the front of
2 the house. I know that we went upstairs, that there is a staircase in the
3 house. There is a staircase.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness didn't say "in the house."
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Is the entrance door on the side of the house facing Pionirska
7 Street?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Of the group that you were with, were all of the people inside the
10 house or were some people outside the house during the time in the
11 afternoon?
12 A. There was a woman in the second house next to ours, and then in
13 the house next to that one, there was a family consisting of three
14 members, two women and one child.
15 Q. My question is: Of the group of people you were with, were any of
16 those people outside of the house at the time Milan Lukic arrived at the
17 house? Can you hear me?
18 A. Yes, I can.
19 Q. Let me repeat the question. At the time Milan Lukic came to the
20 house the first time, were any of the members of the group of people from
21 Koritnik and some from Sase, were any of those people outside of the
22 house?
23 A. Yes. The people who lived there on Pionirska Street. In one of
24 the houses there was one woman and in another house there was my relative,
25 who married there, in Mahala, together with her mother-in-law and her
Page 1179
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 1180
1 child.
2 Q. Aside from the people who lived there, I'm just asking you to tell
3 us about the people, the group of people who you were with, who you
4 travelled to that street with earlier in the day. Of those people, were
5 any of those people outside of the big house?
6 A. We were all there.
7 Q. Were you all inside the house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'm going to ask that the
11 Exhibit P17.3 be placed on the ELMO in Sarajevo. I'm going to ask for the
12 purposes of this witness that this copy of that exhibit be marked
13 P17.3.101.
14 Q. Witness 101, I'm going to ask you to make some markings on this
15 photograph and I'm going to ask you, to begin with, to take the pen that's
16 there and to write the number "101" at the bottom of the photograph, on
17 the white portion of the photograph.
18 A. To the right.
19 Q. Right in the centre of the bottom of the photograph, on the white
20 portion, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. I'm going to ask you to help orient us and yourself by writing
23 "Pionirska" on the street, if you can see Pionirska Street in this
24 photograph.
25 A. [Marks]
Page 1181
1 Q. Thank you. Next I'm going to ask you to draw a line to indicate
2 where the creek ran and write the word "creek" or" pottok" to indicate
3 that?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. I'd ask you to trace it so it leaves a mark on the photograph.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And please write the word "creek."
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. If that pen is not working, I'd ask for some assistance for the
10 witness?
11 JUDGE HUNT: A Biro might help.
12 MR. GROOME: Could we please just check with the court deputy that
13 it has left a permanent mark that we will be able to see if the exhibit is
14 returned.
15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is.
16 MR. GROOME: Thank you.
17 Q. Now, Witness 101, I'd like you to draw a circle and in that circle
18 write "MV-1" to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was the first time you saw
19 him on Pionirska Street that day.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. I'd ask you to put the number "1" on the house which you've
22 referred to as "the big house," the first house you went to on Pionirska
23 Street. Put a number "1" on the roof of that house.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. I'd ask you to put the number "2" on the house that you've
Page 1182
1 referred to as the house by the creek, the house that people were led to
2 at the night-time.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And finally, I would ask you to put the number "3" on the roof of
5 the shed that you've referred to, the shed that you hid behind.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. Now, you've marked "MV-1" to indicate where
8 Mr. Vasiljevic was the first time you saw him. I would ask you to put the
9 number "101" to indicate where you were at the time you observed him.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And I'd ask you to draw a line between the two.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Now, you mentioned seeing him a second time in the evening. I
14 would do you put a circle and "MV-2" to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was
15 the second time you saw him.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And again, would you please put the number "101" to indicate where
18 you were.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And would you connect those two with a line.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And then you've mentioned a third time that you saw
23 Mr. Vasiljevic. I would ask you to draw a circle inside it to put "MV-3"
24 to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was at this time.
25 A. [Marks]
Page 1183
1 Q. And once again, if you would please put "101" to indicate where
2 you were at the time you saw him.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And if you would please connect those two with a line.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Now, in your testimony you mentioned that there was a light. I
7 would ask you to put a circle to approximate the location of that light
8 and put the letter "S," the first letter in the Bosnian word for "light"
9 in that circle.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And can you draw an arrow to indicate in which direction that
12 light was shining?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And finally, you've just testified about the location of the
15 door. I would ask you to please draw an arrow to indicate the side of the
16 house on which the door was located, the entrance door of the house was
17 located.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you, Witness 101. Those are all the marks I'll ask you to
20 make on this exhibit. Please return to your seat and we can take that off
21 the ELMO at this time?
22 MR. GROOME: At this time, Your Honour, I would --
23 JUDGE HUNT: I hesitate to suggest that it could have some further
24 markings, but there seems to be some confusion between at least some of
25 the witnesses as to which were the two houses in which the women were
Page 1184
1 first placed. We've got Witness 77 put the initials JM on one house; the
2 investigator put a box around two other houses, and it seems to me that
3 either we agree, everybody agrees upon one or other of those houses as
4 being owned by that family or we have to have some extra evidence about
5 it.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour I think inevitably, there will be
7 inconsistencies about which houses, so I think we have to rely on the
8 witness' memory. I think in our argument there, one of the witnesses
9 actually lived in this neighbourhood. The Court will have to decide
10 which witnesses are more reliable on this matter.
11 JUDGE HUNT: If there's going to be more confusion, we better not
12 add to it unnecessarily. But I just draw your attention that I myself am
13 puzzled as to which of the houses we're talking about.
14 MR. GROOME: I'm aware of the inconsistency, Your Honour. Thank
15 you.
16 Your Honour, at this time -- excuse me. Before -- I tender
17 Prosecution 17.3.101 into evidence at this time.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?
19 MR. DOMAZET: This evidence. Yes. Yes. No objections.
20 JUDGE HUNT: We'll get a look at it when the court deputy returns
21 it and we can transfer the markings onto our copies or you may be able to
22 organise a marked-up copy when the exhibit comes back to The Hague.
23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, that will be Exhibit P17.3.101.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time, pursuant an agreement
Page 1185
1 between the Prosecution and the Defence, I would tender exhibit or
2 Prosecution document number 67. It is a list of names. The first two
3 pages, those names are in English. The last page, the names and
4 information about those people is in B/C/S.
5 JUDGE HUNT: And is this the names of the persons who were in the
6 house when it was burnt?
7 MR. GROOME: That this witnesses can testify to.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you.
9 Any objection, Mr. Domazet? I know it was stated to be by
10 agreement, but I just want to have it on the record.
11 MR. DOMAZET: No.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P67.
13 MR. GROOME: At this time I would ask that page 3 of Exhibit P67
14 be placed on the ELMO here so that the witness in Sarajevo can see it.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Does that work?
16 MR. GROOME: I was told it would work.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I'll take your word for it.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE HUNT: They're just looking in to see whether they can do
20 that. It may take a couple of minutes.
21 MR. GROOME: The other alternative, Your Honour, would be for us
22 to fax a copy down. The OTP office is in the same building as where this
23 is occurring so it would take about 15 minutes to do that.
24 JUDGE HUNT: I think this may be quicker. Is there something else
25 you can go on with in the meantime.
Page 1186
1 MR. GROOME: Actually, this is my concluding portion. Can I just
2 amend my offer of this exhibit. That will be under seal. There is some
3 biographical information on this which would identify the witness.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That Exhibit P67 will be under seal. I'd
5 sit down if I were you. We'll just wait until we hear from the
6 audiovisual booth.
7 Yes, it will work. So page 3. Thank you.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Witness 101, Exhibit P67, page 3 of that exhibit has been placed
10 or will be placed, and you should see it on your television screen in
11 front of you. Are you able to read the document in front of you now?
12 A. Yes, I am.
13 Q. I'm going to ask you to tell us some of the victims, the victims
14 that you recall from this night. I'm going to ask you not to describe the
15 name of a person and your relationship to them at this point. I'll just
16 ask you to review that list in front of you and ask you, do you recognise
17 the names on that list?
18 JUDGE HUNT: It will have to be scrolled to some extent for her.
19 It doesn't all fit on the screen.
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. I'd ask you to look at numbers 1 through 20 first, and when you've
22 finished looking at those numbers, please let us know, or the names by
23 those numbers. Have you finished reading the names next to numbers 1
24 through 20?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1187
1 Q. I'd ask that it now be scrolled so that the witness can see
2 numbers 21 to 40. I would ask you to look at the names next to 21 to 40
3 and to read them, and let us know when you are finished.
4 A. I have read them.
5 Q. Thank you. And finally, I'd ask that it be scrolled so that the
6 witness can see to the last entry, which is number 48. And I'd ask you to
7 look at the remaining names.
8 A. I have read them, yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us who the names of these 48 people are? Who are
10 these people?
11 A. These people are all Muslims. They all belong to one family.
12 They're relatives.
13 Q. And what can you tell us about these 48 names in regards to June
14 14th of 1992?
15 A. I can say that they were all together in that house on Pionirska
16 Street, that we were supposed to go to Kladanj after that, that we were
17 all together at that time.
18 Q. Are these people part of the group of people that travelled with
19 you from Koritnik into Visegrad and then on to Pionirska Street?
20 A. We were there together, except for the five individuals that
21 joined us in Sase. We were all together. And the two families that I
22 said that joined us later in Pionirska Street. So they were in the house,
23 in the house of their own, whereas the rest of us were all together in one
24 group, in one house.
25 Q. And was this, the numbers 1 to 48, part of the group of people
Page 1188
1 that was moved to the house by the creek?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you related to most of the people on this list?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have you seen any of the people on this list after the 14th of
6 June, 1992?
7 A. Yes, I have. Witness VG038, VG013, VG018, VG084, and VG078.
8 Q. Of the 48 names that are on the screen in front of you that you've
9 just read, of those 48, have you ever seen any of those people after the
10 14th of June?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Which people on that list have you seen since the 14th of June?
13 Can you tell us their number?
14 A. You mean the men in the group or ...
15 Q. No. I mean -- you've just looked at the list, numbers 1 through
16 48. If you need to look at it again, we can move it so you can review the
17 names again. Of the 48 names in front of you, have you seen any of those
18 people after the 14th of June, from the 15th of June, 1992 to this day?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Which people on that list have you seen since that day?
21 A. Number 6.
22 Q. Have you finished reviewing the entire list?
23 A. Yes. I have only seen the person listed under number 6. And
24 witness VG018, I cannot see him on the list. I don't know which number
25 he's listed under.
Page 1189
1 Q. So the remainder of the list, except for number 6, you have not
2 seen those people after the night of the 14th of June, 1992; is that
3 correct?
4 A. No, never. I've never seen them.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Are we going to find out where she saw number 6?
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there seems to be a mistake on the
9 list. That is a witness in the case.
10 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Thank you.
11 Mr. Domazet.
12 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam VG101.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. I should now like to ask you to answer my questions, and let me
17 begin at the beginning, that is to say, from the morning of the 14th of
18 June, 1992, when you set out from your village with this group. Do you
19 remember which day of the week it was?
20 A. It was Sunday.
21 Q. Thank you. Immediately prior to that, perhaps even the day
22 before, you talked to the Serbs who had come to tell you that the
23 departure had been organised. I understood you to say that you understood
24 and that that man told you that it was departure for a certain amount of
25 time and that he hoped and you hoped that you would return to your own
Page 1190
1 village in a short while; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What that man said, was it in the form of an order? Did he order
4 you to go or did he say he advised you to join the convoy because some
5 other Serbs could come who could do you some harm?
6 A. Yes, it was an order that we had to go, that they couldn't
7 guarantee us our freedom and that other people had exerted pressure on
8 them and that we had to leave the village. He said he would look after
9 some of our personal belongings until we returned but that we had to leave
10 the village.
11 Q. Very well. When you say you had to leave, that means that had you
12 not left, they would not guarantee your safety vis-a-vis the people who
13 might turn up in the village subsequently. That's how I understood you.
14 Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. On that morning, Sunday, the 14th of June, 1992, you moved in a
17 column and went along the road to Visegrad. Did you move freely, that is
18 to say, without any guards, escorts, or were you under some sort of guard
19 or coercion? Were you forced in any way?
20 A. We went ourselves to Greben, and then there was a man called
21 Milorad standing at that place, Greben. His nickname was Micun. He stood
22 around with us for some time and then he said he couldn't be with us any
23 longer, that he couldn't stand there any longer, that he had to return
24 home, and we were left alone then. We were on our own.
25 Q. Yes. So if I understood you correctly, you went in this column to
Page 1191
1 Greben completely alone and were joined there by this man Milorad,
2 nicknamed Micun and he went with you for a certain portion of the way and
3 then said he couldn't go on further, he didn't dare and you had to carry
4 on yourselves alone because he couldn't return; is that right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Madam, That man Milorad or Micun was his surname perhaps Lipovac?
7 Did you hear my question or shall I repeat it?
8 A. I'm afraid I didn't hear your question to the end.
9 Q. Was this man's name -- surname Lipovac, this Milorad or Micun?
10 A. No, I can't remember.
11 Q. The road you took, you didn't encounter a bus, a bus which the
12 people had promised would wait for you, but nonetheless a bus with people
13 from Vlahovici did pass you by and continued on towards Visegrad; is that
14 right?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. In that bus, was there a woman by the name of Saha or Seha who had
17 started out with you but stopped off in a village because she couldn't
18 take the journey any longer?
19 A. Yes, that's right. She was there.
20 Q. Is that the person you said had lagged behind and was put into the
21 bus?
22 A. Yes, that's that person.
23 Q. The people who went in the bus, and that person whom you knew,
24 when you reached Visegrad, you didn't find them there, you didn't see them
25 anywhere, as far as I was able to gather from what you said. Did you hear
Page 1192
1 my question?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. Upon your arrival in Visegrad, did you see these people and the
4 woman we mentioned in Visegrad itself, or weren't they there when you
5 arrived?
6 A. No, I didn't see them.
7 Q. And you later heard that the woman had reached Kladanj; is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes, that's right. I did.
10 Q. In front of the hotel you saw Serb policemen and you told us that
11 they were wearing camouflage uniforms. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were they blue police-type camouflage uniforms or were they the
14 olive-green/grey uniforms, the standard type?
15 A. They were olive-green, I think. Green, yes.
16 Q. You said specifically, without saying who, "They put us in the
17 garden of the hotel." Who put you there?
18 A. The people who stopped us. They said that we should move away
19 from the front of the hotel. We were standing on the street, but they
20 told us to go into the garden because we wouldn't be blocking the
21 entrance.
22 Q. Near the hotel, was there the Red Cross headquarters of Visegrad?
23 Was it housed there?
24 A. I don't know. I didn't go to the Red Cross. I don't know where
25 it is.
Page 1193
1 Q. Did you hear from someone in the group that the Red Cross was
2 looking -- that they were looking for the Red Cross and whether they were
3 talking about whether it worked, was open or not?
4 A. Well, at the beginning, the policeman who told us to go to Janja
5 told us that we should go to the Red Cross but we didn't see the Red Cross
6 anywhere, nor did anybody direct us towards the Red Cross.
7 Q. How long did you stay there in front of the hotel and in the hotel
8 gardens?
9 A. I don't know exactly how long it was, but we were there until they
10 had reached some agreement as to what to do with us, whether we were to go
11 to Bikavac, while they were discussing where to take us. And then they
12 cursed us, they swore, so we didn't dare look at them; we would just look
13 down at our own feet in front of us. I don't know how long we were there
14 for, but we were there for some time.
15 Q. When you say "they," madam, do you mean the policemen who were in
16 front?
17 A. Yes, those who were there.
18 Q. After that, as you said a moment ago, a person came whom you were
19 able to identify as Mitar Vasiljevic.
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. You said that he came in a car and that you think he was alone in
22 the car.
23 A. I just saw him getting out of the car. I didn't see anybody else.
24 Q. May we take it, then, that he drove the car as well?
25 A. Yes. I assume he did, because he got out straight away, from the
Page 1194
1 left-hand side of the car, so probably he was alone and was driving the
2 car himself.
3 Q. You were asked, but let me ask you again, whether you recall the
4 car.
5 A. No, I don't remember. I can't remember what type of car it was.
6 Q. You described what he was wearing and said that he had trousers,
7 or rather, that he was wearing the SMB, olive-green/grey uniform.
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Do you remember what you told the Tribunal investigator with
10 regard to this same event?
11 A. Yes. I said he had a black hat on his head, a black coat, and I
12 remember he had a rather large chain with a cross on it round his neck and
13 that this cross and chain was over his uniform.
14 Q. Was the cross on the chain around his neck a big one?
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. How big, would you say? Could you tell us how big?
17 A. Well, it was big, like an index finger, perhaps, the size of an
18 index finger.
19 Q. You mean length-wise, the length of an index finger?
20 A. Yes, the length. Like a plus sign.
21 Q. A large cross, the length of a finger: Can I describe it that
22 way? Is that how I am to describe your description?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. Do you remember that you said that he had a camouflage uniform on
25 and not an olive-green/grey one?
Page 1195
1 A. I said a uniform of the former army, that he was wearing that
2 uniform and a light coat over it.
3 Q. Was the coat an army coat as well, belonging to the former army?
4 A. No, it wasn't.
5 Q. Madam, when you explained how you identified him as being Mitar
6 Vasiljevic, you said that you didn't know him personally but that you knew
7 him by sight.
8 A. Yes, that's right. I would see him around.
9 Q. And you said that you saw him when you went to the primary school
10 in Prelovo, that he would pass by that road frequently.
11 A. Yes. His wife worked in a shop in Prelovo. Her name was
12 Milojka. And we went to primary school there, and that's how I would see
13 him and know him, in Prelovo.
14 Q. When you would see him during that time, would he be walking or
15 would he be in a car?
16 A. No. He would be walking. The wife would always go in front of
17 him, walk in front, and he would walk behind her. And he always had this
18 black hat on his head.
19 Q. How many years was that before what you have described in 1992?
20 A. Well, a long time ago. Eight years of primary school. Well, 15
21 years ago, while I was attending primary school.
22 Q. Eight or nine years, that means before the events that you're
23 testifying about now took place; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You say that that person whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic
Page 1196
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22
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24
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Page 1197
1 said that you could go to Pionirska Street because there were some empty
2 houses there.
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And you said that afterwards the whole column, without him and
5 without an escort, went off towards Pionirska Street; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Did that whole column arrive at the houses in Pionirska Street
8 without any other escort?
9 A. Yes. Nobody accompanied us at all. We went on our own.
10 Q. Did you first meet and talk to a woman, and did she indicate a
11 house to you, point you to a house?
12 A. Yes. A woman came out of a house and she said -- inaudible.
13 THE INTERPRETER: And then the witness says "the house by the
14 creek."
15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation].
16 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please. We weren't able to hear it
17 properly.
18 A. Yes. The woman came out of the house and she told us that we
19 should get out of the road, that we couldn't stand on the road and that we
20 should go to the house by the creek. It was the house belonging to a man
21 and his sister, whose sister was with us in the column.
22 Q. When you say it was the house, you mean the house by the creek
23 that you were directed to?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. How far was that house from the house in which you finally went
Page 1198
1 in?
2 A. Perhaps 50 metres away. I don't know exactly, but they were quite
3 close to each over.
4 Q. You said today, madam, that about five minutes after your arrival,
5 that is to say, after your group arrived in Pionirska Street, that Mitar
6 Vasiljevic came in a car.
7 A. Yes, that's right, because we had already started off towards this
8 house, and then Mitar turned up. I didn't see the car, but I saw him in
9 front of the door of the big house. And he said, "All of you come back
10 here. I have something to tell you. Form a group and all come back, form
11 a circle around me." He said we could no longer live together, that we
12 would go to Kladanj, and when we got to Kladanj --
13 Q. Yes, thank you. You've already told us that. You've already told
14 us that this morning. My question was just the moment of his arrival.
15 You said you didn't see the car. How, then, do you know that he came by
16 car?
17 A. Well, because he came very soon afterwards, but I didn't see the
18 car. That's true. I couldn't see the street from that house, so I didn't
19 see whether he came by car.
20 Q. When you say he told us to go back, when he said, "Go back," was
21 he standing up above you towards the school in Pionirska Street and the
22 column was down below towards town, or was it something else?
23 A. He was in front of the big house. I moved towards the house by
24 the creek, where they would be killed later on. I didn't reach the
25 house. I came to the corner and he told us to come back. He said, "All
Page 1199
1 of you have to go into one house so that you're all together."
2 Q. If I understood you correctly, he was standing a little higher up
3 Pionirska Street towards the house -- the school.
4 A. No. The school is on the right-hand side and he was exactly in
5 front of the big house, and I moved off in the direction of the house by
6 the creek. And somewhere halfway, we had to return to the big house. We
7 were told to go back to the big house, where Mitar was standing.
8 Q. Well, I don't want to insist upon that point. I don't think it's
9 essential.
10 Let me ask you the following: Did you ever see Mitar Vasiljevic
11 drive a car on any other occasion?
12 A. No, never.
13 Q. Do you remember what time of day it was, what time it might have
14 been when you went into the house?
15 A. Well, I don't know what time it was, but I do know that a long
16 time went by by the time we got to Visegrad and put up in Pionirska
17 Street.
18 Q. When the group arrived in which you recognised Milan Lukic and you
19 also described three other men who were with him, the group that did the
20 looting --
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. -- in your statement to the investigator, you said that it was
23 around 1800 hours. Is that correct?
24 A. Well, I didn't say the exact time, but they did come soon after
25 Mitar Vasiljevic.
Page 1200
1 Q. You said late in the afternoon, at about 1800 hours.
2 A. I said that they had perhaps left the house towards dusk.
3 Q. I'm telling you what it says in your statement to the
4 investigator. Now, you tell me whether that is correct or not.
5 A. I can't say what time it was. I don't know exactly what the time
6 was.
7 Q. You said today that the group left around dusk, when darkness
8 began to fall; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. From their departure up until the time they returned again, can
11 you determine how much time elapsed?
12 A. Not long. It was dark. There were no lights in the house, so
13 that we sat around in the dark.
14 Q. Let me remind you once again and see whether what you said to the
15 investigator is correct. You said at around midnight that the group
16 returned at around midnight.
17 A. Well, I assume that it was around midnight, because I know that I
18 spent the whole night escaping in the woods and I needed -- and a lot of
19 time went by before dawn. So I assume that it was 11.00 or 12.00, but I
20 can't say exactly.
21 Q. Do you know if that group arrived in a car?
22 A. I did not see the car, but I heard a car park near the house.
23 Q. So it was then that the same group of Chetniks arrived, the same
24 group as the one that came in the afternoon that did the looting,
25 including the person that you described as Mitar Vasiljevic; is that
Page 1201
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. A moment ago you marked a photograph, indicating a number of
4 places, that is, all of the places where you were and where you saw the
5 individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic. You also indicated
6 the shed behind which you fled and hid. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You have also indicated to us the spot from where you could see
9 the individual whom you referred to as Mitar Vasiljevic for the third
10 time, that is, for the third time on that day, and you indicated the spot
11 as MV-3. And you also indicated the spot from where you could see him.
12 Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did that sighting happen at the moment you were still -- while you
15 were still walking with the column from which you fled?
16 A. Yes. As I got out of the big house and moved towards the house
17 near the creek.
18 Q. So it was at that time, as the column was moving towards the house
19 of Omeragic?
20 A. Yes. Yes. First there was the shed and then this spot where they
21 were standing. I don't know exactly what it was. I remember that the
22 place had some kind of roof or a shelter and that it was lit. They were
23 using floodlights and lighting up the area surrounding that spot.
24 Q. Now you are referring to the house of Omeragic, the house that was
25 burnt down, I suppose. Is that the house that you said was lit?
Page 1202
1 A. No. I am referring to the spot where I fled, that is, I fled
2 behind the shed, and in front of the shed the area was lit. I could not
3 see the house from that place, no.
4 Q. You couldn't see the house from where you were standing because
5 the light was in your direction, was turned in your direction, and the
6 house across the street?
7 A. Yes. The light was turned towards that house, but I was not able
8 to see the house. The area was lit for us so that we could find our way
9 to the second house.
10 Q. So from that place, while you were walking, halfway through, so
11 from that spot, you saw the person whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic
12 for the third time? Is was from that particular location?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it was from that particular spot that you, and I suppose your
17 sister, who was walking right behind you, that you fled to the left and
18 hid behind the shed that you marked with number 3?
19 A. Well, it was a small installation. I assume it was a shed. It
20 was a small structure, in any case, and we hid ourselves behind that shed.
21 Q. Yes, but in any case, it was behind the structure that you marked
22 with number 3, whether it was a shed or a small hut or a house, it's not
23 really important. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did anyone else, apart from you, attempt to escape at the moment
Page 1203
1 you did?
2 A. No. I didn't even know that my sister did, up until the moment
3 she threw herself on the ground right behind me. We didn't stay there for
4 a long time. No. No. I didn't see anyone else behind us, because we
5 left the spot as fast as we could.
6 Q. Witness, can you hear me?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Because I did not hear the end of your answer. There must have
9 been an interruption.
10 According to the photograph that you marked for the Court today,
11 it was from that spot that you ran toward the house. That the distance
12 was approximately or at least ten metres. Can we agree on that, that that
13 was the difference from that spot to this house?
14 A. Yes. Yes. I remember. I don't know exactly -- I don't remember
15 what the distance was, but I remember running for a while and then
16 throwing myself onto the ground.
17 Q. And you stayed there with your sister for a while, you said
18 between 5 and 10 minutes?
19 A. Yes. We still needed to cover some distance down to the creek. I
20 remember a hill, a slope, and there was a valley there where we lay, with
21 some water, where we lay for a while, and then we decided to go upstream
22 and to follow the creek. It was not a very big creek. It really had very
23 little water in it.
24 Q. In what direction did you go following the creek?
25 A. I remember that we went upstream for a while. I don't exactly
Page 1204
1 remember for how long. And then at one point we turned right and entered
2 the woods. We just wanted to get to the woods.
3 Q. So you turned right from the creek, otherwise you would have
4 turned left towards the town?
5 A. Yes. I remember some very high hedges that we had to climb over,
6 and it was only then, after that, that we managed to reach the woods.
7 Q. So you were in the woods at the time that you heard some noise
8 such as explosions or detonations?
9 A. Well, it was at the beginning that we heard -- that we could hear
10 this shooting.
11 Q. How far is the wood? How long did it take you to reach the woods?
12 A. I don't know exactly how long it took us to get there, but by that
13 time everybody had left the large house and they -- at the time they were
14 trying to jump out of the windows. The shooting started. I mean, that
15 was the moment that we actually heard the shooting.
16 Q. Was that the shooting that you heard or explosions or just fire,
17 since you couldn't see it from you were? What was your impression? What
18 did you think was going on?
19 A. As far as I remember, I -- well, I couldn't see anything because
20 it was dark, but I heard single shots, and my impression was that they
21 were being killed as they reached the lit area. It was something like an
22 execution. I thought that they were lined up next to each other and being
23 executed. So that was the feeling, that was the impression that I had at
24 the moment I heard the shooting.
25 Q. So you didn't realise in any way -- I mean, it was not your
Page 1205
1 impression that the place had been set on fire. You couldn't see or smell
2 anything?
3 A. No, I didn't see the fire. I couldn't see or smell the smoke. I
4 only heard the shooting. Because we didn't dare linger around. We tried
5 to leave the place as soon as possible and to flee.
6 Q. A moment ago when you were looking at the list of people whom you
7 said were with you on that occasion, somewhere at the end of the list we
8 could see the name Mujo Jasarevic from Sase. Do you remember that
9 individual?
10 A. He joined us in Sase, together with three other women. They were
11 from the village of Sase, and it was in Sase that they joined us.
12 Q. Mujo, was he with you in the first house before you left the
13 house?
14 A. Yes. Yes. I remember that he was there. He knew Mitar
15 Vasiljevic very well.
16 Q. Are you sure about his surname, Jasarevic? Could it not be
17 (redacted), by any chance?
18 A. There was Mujo and Alija Jasarevic.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I think we might have lost the connection again for a
20 moment there. Do you want to ask her the question again, Mr. Domazet?
21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 Q. Witness, my question was whether perhaps Mujo's surname was
23 (redacted) and not Jasarevic.
24 A. Yes, you're right. Alija's surname was Jasarevic and there were
25 two other women with the surname of Velic, and one more woman who had the
Page 1206
1 same surname as me and my family and who died.
2 Q. In your statement you said that on that day, on the 14th of June,
3 you saw the person whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic first near the
4 hotel, that he got out of a car there, then in Pionirska Street for the
5 second time, when he actually came to you and spoke to you; and then again
6 on the third occasion, somewhere near the house and then near that spot
7 that you indicated as you were part of that column.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you sure that the individual whom you saw at the hotel in
10 Pionirska Street is the same person as the person you identified at
11 midnight or thereabouts in the night when this crime took place?
12 A. Yes, I am sure.
13 Q. I'm asking you this because the individual in question, Mitar
14 Vasiljevic, was in Pionirska Street that afternoon, but there is
15 documentary evidence to the effect that on that evening, as early as
16 2130 --
17 JUDGE HUNT: That's not the way to cross-examine. What are you
18 going to ask her to do, to say whether the documentary evidence is right
19 or wrong?
20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I was under
21 the impression that the document in question, that is, the document on the
22 admission of Mitar Vasiljevic to the hospital, has been admitted into
23 evidence through the witness Hansen, the investigator, that I was allowed
24 to ask questions on the basis of that document. I may have erroneously
25 formulated my question. If necessary, I should like to reformulate it in
Page 1207
1 connection with this particular exhibit, because --
2 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you do, you've asked this question before
3 and each time I think I've queried the purpose of the question. You're
4 going to say to her something along the lines other people have suggested
5 otherwise or there is a document to suggest otherwise. How does this
6 witness deal with that? That's not a challenge to her evidence. You have
7 challenged her evidence, I think that's safe to say, but do you think that
8 by force of putting this to her she is going to cave in and say, "I must
9 have been wrong"? That's not a question in cross-examination. I'm not
10 sure whether it may be different in other countries, but I have always
11 understood that you cannot ask a witness to comment upon other evidence in
12 the case unless it is something that was said when she was present or in
13 some other way she has personal knowledge of it, and it's a very sound
14 rule, if I may say so, of common sense.
15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I
16 will rephrase my question. With your permission, I would like to ask the
17 witness whether she has ever heard about Mitar Vasiljevic's injury to his
18 leg, and also about his prolonged absence from Visegrad.
19 A. No.
20 Q. And my last question for you, madam: Are you positive that the
21 individual whom you saw around midnight or sometime before midnight near
22 the house of Omeragic was the individual in question, that is, before you
23 fled towards the house that you marked with number 3?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you. That concludes my
Page 1208
1 cross-examination.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome. May I suggest there is something which
3 we perhaps better have very clear perhaps by agreement. What is the
4 colour of the old JNA uniform?
5 MR. GROOME: I believe Mr. Domazet has done service in the
6 People's Yugoslav Army, so I would rely on his representation of that.
7 JUDGE HUNT: What is it, Mr. Domazet? What is the colour? Let's
8 hear it from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry. That's a colloquialism that
9 you may not understand.
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the colour of the
11 uniform was described with an acronym, SMB, which stands for
12 grey/olive-green uniform. It was a unicoloured uniform and of the
13 lighter shade of olive-green colour. That was the customary and the only
14 uniform at the time when I did my military service. Later on, in addition
15 to this particular uniform, a camouflage uniform was introduced, but
16 unlike these other police camouflage uniforms, the JNA camouflage uniform
17 has some brown and reddish hues and it has this characteristic pattern,
18 whereas the police camouflage uniform is blue and not as multicoloured as
19 the military one. I don't know if this is of any assistance to you, Your
20 Honours. If this should be challenged, I think that we can present
21 additional evidence.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's fair to say, Mr. Domazet, that was my
23 understanding of it, but there have been a number of witnesses, including
24 this one, who have referred to it without describing the colour, and I
25 thought we had better get it straight.
Page 1209
1 Have you got any objection to any of the descriptions that
2 Mr. Domazet gave, Mr. Groome?
3 MR. GROOME: No. I accept Mr. Domazet's representation of the
4 uniforms to the extent that they do not contradict the witness. If
5 the witness describes different colours, I would ask the Court to rely on
6 what the witness --
7 JUDGE HUNT: No. This witness made it very clear what she meant,
8 and it was the same as Mr. Domazet's description, but I thought we should
9 have it on the record somewhere.
10 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Now, have you got any questions in re-examination?
12 MR. GROOME: Just a couple of questions.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:
14 Q. Witness 101, Mr. Domazet asked you about describing the column of
15 people as it came up Pionirska Street from the town to the big house. I
16 want to ask you a question about that column. My question is: Are you
17 able to approximate the length of the column, that is, the distance from
18 the first person in the group of people to the last person in the group of
19 people?
20 A. I don't know exactly the column --
21 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. We're having difficulty hearing the
22 witness.
23 A. We were in a column two by two, moving towards Pionirska Street.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. So the group of people were two people side by side, for whatever
Page 1210
1 length that took; is that correct? I saw you nod your head. Would you
2 please answer verbally.
3 A. No. I don't know how long it was.
4 Q. But are you saying that the column, the width of the column, was
5 only two people wide, one person next to another?
6 A. Yes, two by two, maybe three in cases of some women with children,
7 like a woman leading her two children, but mostly it was two by two.
8 Q. And by the time this column was on Pionirska Street, what is your
9 best estimate of how many people were in the column?
10 A. Fifty-three.
11 Q. And can you approximate for us where in this column you were?
12 Were you at the front, at the rear, somewhere in the middle? Can you
13 approximate where you were?
14 A. No. No, I can't remember that.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Domazet asked you about a person by the name of Mujo
16 Jasarevic, and in answer to one of his questions you stated that this man
17 knew Mitar Vasiljevic very well. My question to you is: How do you know
18 that?
19 A. I think that in that house either Mujo or Alija would have known
20 that, because in that village, Mitar's wife, Milojka, also worked, and
21 they were there together in that shop. I don't know whether it was Mujo
22 or Alija. One of them or both of them liked to drink. Other people knew
23 him very well. He even addressed a woman from our village. He spoke to
24 her about her brother, who had been taken away at the very beginning. He
25 told her that he was safe, that he was in Sarajevo, that she should not
Page 1211
1 worry. She was also one of the people who knew him very well. She used
2 to work in Visegrad, and she told us that Mitar had told her that her
3 brother had been taken to Sarajevo and that he was safe and
4 that we would also reach Kladanj in safety and that she would be reunited
5 with her brother, that he was alive and well. However, ever since the
6 beginning of the war, no one has ever heard about that man.
7 Q. Did you, on the 14th of June, ever hear Mujo Jasarevic refer to
8 Mitar Vasiljevic, using his name?
9 A. Yes. I heard that while I was in the house, but I also heard it
10 from other people who knew him very well, in particular, this woman I just
11 told you about. She knew him. She even spoke to him when he told her
12 about her brother, that he was safe, that they should not worry about him,
13 that he would be transferred to Sarajevo.
14 MR. GROOME: Thank you very much, Witness 101. That is all the
15 questions I have.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, madam, for giving evidence
17 before the Tribunal today and for the evidence you gave. You are now free
18 to leave.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the last of the witnesses on videolink?
22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there's probably little opportunity to start
24 another witness this afternoon.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
Page 1212
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Page 1213
1 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got one here?
2 MR. GROOME: There is one here, but may I suggest we discuss the
3 subpoenaed witnesses.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, very well.
5 MR. GROOME: I have some updated information regarding them.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will deal with the next witness
7 tomorrow. We will only be sitting until lunchtime tomorrow, unless
8 there's only a tiny bit of evidence to deal with.
9 MR. GROOME: The information that I have at this point is that
10 both of the witnesses have agreed to come up. They apparently went to
11 apply for passports today and for their visa applications today. However,
12 the earliest that that process will be completed would bring them here or
13 make them available to testify at the very end of next week.
14 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. Your last witness, I gather, is
15 Dr. de Grave.
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: So that you've got the Friday and the Monday to fill
18 in even on your -- I think this is the penultimate version of the -- the
19 new one, yes. Yes, even on the most recent edition of your schedule,
20 you've got Friday and Monday to fill in, so that should do it.
21 MR. GROOME: Yes.
22 JUDGE HUNT: It does not matter if the case goes on past
23 Dr. de Grave but I just have to keep in mind a few other matters that are
24 happening around at that time. One of them is that on that Friday, that
25 will be Friday the -- I'm sorry. Go back one. Thursday, the 11th of
Page 1214
1 October, all of the Judges of the Tribunal are travelling to a conference
2 elsewhere in Europe with the Rwanda Tribunal. This is an annual event
3 that we're expected to attend and we'll be leaving sometime during the
4 course of the afternoon, depending upon the amount of time we have to be
5 at the airport before the plane leaves, which at the moment I'm told is
6 three hours, rather an alarming prospect. So that Thursday and obviously
7 the Friday of that week, we will not be available, Thursday afternoon at
8 least.
9 Very well, then. Anything else?
10 MR. GROOME: Just one small matter on this. It will be until
11 tomorrow -- we won't be able to have the next week's witness to the Court
12 until tomorrow afternoon. There are some problems, logistical problems.
13 We will have witnesses here next week, but we're not sure which order. As
14 soon as we can get that finalised we'll get that to the Court.
15 JUDGE HUNT: The most important person you should notify, of
16 course, is Mr. Domazet, because he has to be ready to cross-examine them,
17 and my own experience of it is that you like to have the evening before
18 with the witnesses you know are going to be called the next day, otherwise
19 from the Trial Chamber's point of view it doesn't matter.
20 Very well. We'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.58 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of
23 September 2001, at 9.30 a.m. 3.58
24
25