Page 391
1 Friday, 14 July 2006
2 [Further Appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number
9 IT-96-23/2-I, the Prosecutor versus Dragan Zelenovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Mr. Zelenovic, can you hear me in a language you understand?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 May I have the appearances. Prosecution first.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honour. For the
16 Prosecution Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff, and I am again accompanied by case
17 manager, Verica Balikic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.
19 For the Defence.
20 MR. VAN DER SPOEL: Good morning, Your Honour. Tjarda Van der
21 Spoel, duty counsel for Mr. Zelenovic. And at Chamber's request, the
22 chosen Defence counsel, Ognjanovic, who has not yet been assigned.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
24 The purpose of this hearing is to hear a plea entered by
25 Mr. Zelenovic.
Page 392
1 Mr. Zelenovic, did you have an opportunity discuss the indictment
2 with counsel? And when I'm saying "counsel" I mean Mr. Ognjanovic who is
3 in -- who is about, as I understand, about to be assigned as permanent
4 counsel. Did you have an opportunity to discuss it with him?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have, Your Honour, yesterday
6 in fact.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday. I take it that you've received a copy of
8 the indictment in your own language?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ognjanovic, I do understand that Mr. Zelenovic
11 discussed with you the indictment. Have you received the indictment?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yesterday morning, and we passed through the
14 indictment -- yesterday afternoon.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you received it yesterday morning?
16 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yesterday morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll come back to that later. Have you got any
18 impression of the supporting material?
19 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yes, I received also on a CD with the supporting
20 material and I passed through it last evening.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that is after you discussed the matters with
22 Mr. Zelenovic?
23 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yes, of course.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Does that cause you any further need to speak with
25 Mr. Zelenovic about a plea to be entered or --
Page 393
1 MR. OGNJANOVIC: No, there is no need for any further
2 consultations.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ognjanovic.
4 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Zelenovic, the whole of the indictment
6 could be read to you. We also could proceed on the basis of the counts of
7 the indictment to be read to you and that you then enter a plea on each of
8 these counts. Do you insist on reading the whole of the indictment or
9 would you be satisfied if I just put the separate counts to you?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I read it through with
11 my Defence counsel yesterday, and there is no need to read it out in its
12 entirety today.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll go through the indictment by reading
14 out the counts, and invite you at -- at each of these counts to enter a
15 plea. And these pleas will then be recorded.
16 I first take you to Counts 5 to 8 of the indictment. Counts 5
17 to 8 of the indictment deal with what is briefly described in the heading
18 as torture and rape at Buk Bijela.
19 Count 5, you're charged with torture, a crime against humanity,
20 punishable under Article 5(F) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
21 Mr. Zelenovic, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the plea of not guilty in Count 5
24 should be recorded.
25 Count 6, rape, a crime against humanity, punishable under
Page 394
1 Article 5(G) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
2 How do you plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the not guilty on Count 6 should be
5 recorded.
6 Count 7, torture, a violation of the laws or customs of war,
7 punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal and recognised
8 by common Article 3(1)(a), torture, of the Geneva Conventions.
9 Mr. Zelenovic, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the not guilty on Count 7 should be
12 recorded.
13 Count 8, rape, a violation of the laws or customs of war,
14 punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
15 How plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea on Count 8 should be recorded.
18 We then move on to Counts 13 to 16 of the indictment, torture and
19 rape at Foca high school.
20 Count 13, torture, a crime against humanity punishable under
21 Article 5 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
22 How do you plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the not guilty plea on Count 13 should
25 be recorded.
Page 395
1 Count 14, rape, a crime against humanity, punishable under
2 Article 5(G) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
3 How do you plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the not guilty plea on Count 14 should
6 be recorded.
7 Mr. Zelenovic, under Count 15 you're charged with torture, a
8 violation of the laws or customs of war punishable under Article 3 of the
9 Statute of the Tribunal and recognised by Common Article 3(a)(1), torture,
10 of the Geneva Conventions.
11 How do you plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea on Count 15 should be recorded.
14 Count 16 charges you, Mr. Zelenovic, with rape, a violation of the
15 laws or customs of war, punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the
16 Tribunal.
17 How do you plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea of Count 16 should be recorded,
20 Mr. Registrar.
21 I then on to Counts 41 to 44 which we find under the
22 heading "torture and rape of women at partisan sports hall," five
23 mentioned by pseudonyms but other women also included.
24 Under Count 41, Mr. Zelenovic, you are charged with torture, a
25 crime against humanity, punishable under Article 5(F) of the Statute of
Page 396
1 the Tribunal. How do you plead?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea on Count 41 should be recorded,
4 Mr. Registrar.
5 Count 42 charges you, Mr. Zelenovic, with rape, a crime against
6 humanity, punishable under Article 5(G) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
7 How do you plead?
8 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zelenovic, your plea on Count 42 is not heard by
10 the interpreters and is not on the record. Could you please repeat your
11 plea under Count 42 --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty. Not guilty.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea on Count 42 should be recorded,
14 Mr. Registrar.
15 Then Count 43, torture, a violation of the laws or customs of war,
16 punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal and recognised
17 by Common Article 3(a)(1), torture, of the Geneva Conventions. How do you
18 plead, Mr. --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea on Count 43 will be recorded.
21 Count 44, rape, a violation of the laws or customs of war,
22 punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
23 How do you plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea on Count 44 will be recorded.
Page 397
1 Then I finally take you to the last two counts of the indictment.
2 They appear under the heading of rape of, and then two women are mentioned
3 by their pseudonym and two other women. The women were taken from
4 Karaman's house in Foca and were continued to be detained in different
5 houses and apartments and continued to be subjected to sexual assaults.
6 In Count 49 you're charged, Mr. Zelenovic, with rape, a crime
7 against humanity, punishable under Article 5(G) of the Statute of the
8 Tribunal.
9 How do you plead?
10 We didn't hear a plea yet from you, Mr. Zelenovic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The not guilty plea on that Count 49 will be
13 recorded.
14 Then the last count, Count 50, charges you, Mr. Zelenovic, with
15 rape, a violation of the laws or customs of war, punishable under
16 Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
17 How do you plead, Mr. Zelenovic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Registrar, the not guilty plea under Count 50 should be
21 recorded.
22 You've now entered your plea, Mr. Zelenovic. You showed yesterday
23 already that you're aware that there is a request pending for your case to
24 be referred to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Therefore, we have two proceedings
25 going on at the same time, at this moment at least. And that is the
Page 398
1 charges brought against you before this Tribunal and at the same time the
2 request for referral of the case to a domestic court in Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina.
4 Yesterday I asked you whether there were any other issues to be
5 raised in -- related to detention or health. May I take it that the
6 situation has not changed since yesterday?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, you may.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then is there any other issue to be raised.
9 Mr. Van der Spoel, did you have an opportunity to speak with
10 Mr. Ognjanovic?
11 MR. VAN DER SPOEL: Yes, Your Honour, I did. I met him at
12 yesterday afternoon at 1.00. I talked about the appearance yesterday
13 morning and your instructions, your observations. I informed him about
14 those.
15 Yesterday evening I also spoke to him and this morning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. VAN DER SPOEL: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Does this cause you to raise any further
19 issue?
20 MR. VAN DER SPOEL: No. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Then, Mr. Ognjanovic, may I ask you, since approximately 30 days
22 you were aware that Mr. Zelenovic would like to be assisted by you. I
23 take it that you know the rules, so that you knew that within the next 30
24 days Mr. Zelenovic would have to enter a plea.
25 Nevertheless, yesterday I had to establish, at least that's what
Page 399
1 Mr. Zelenovic told me, that apart from a short telephone conversation,
2 that he had had no telephone contact with you, that's one. Two, I do
3 understand that yesterday, for unknown reasons to me, you're not able to
4 attend. I did not hear anything about you contacting either OLAD or the
5 Registry to ask for a further delay or to speak with those responsible
6 with how to proceed. That's two. Three, I do understand that it was
7 yesterday only after you met with Mr. Zelenovic that you acquainted
8 yourself with the supporting material, at least I take it the
9 non-confidential part of it.
10 I have not heard of any contact between you and the Prosecutor.
11 It highly surprised me. Could you please explain to me why we had to sit
12 here yesterday when you thought that your travelling schedule could be
13 such that you would not be present in this court, and that you had not
14 spoke with Mr. Zelenovic, that you had not had thorough contact with
15 Mr. Van der Spoel, and that you had not had thorough contact with the
16 Prosecution under the present circumstances.
17 Would you please explain what made you choose this, may I say,
18 surprising and extraordinary course of action?
19 MR. OGNJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this course of
20 action was not actually a matter of my decision; it was by dint of
21 circumstance that I had to take it. I was not informed 30 days ago about
22 the fact that the accused wanted me to be his chosen counsel. This
23 actually happened within the past two weeks. Over the two past weeks, I
24 have had -- I have maintained constant contact with people from the
25 Registry, Martin Petrov, and Ms. Reinhardt.
Page 400
1 In that interval, I had three or four telephone conversations with
2 the accused in the Detention Unit, just these two or three or four very
3 brief conversations, and they concern the exchange of information, and
4 that is what we did.
5 Finally, the day before yesterday I was informed in Belgrade that
6 his initial appearance, the one for yesterday, would possibly be postponed
7 for today, and that is why I set out on my journey yesterday because I
8 thought it would be today. Then we talked on the telephone, and I advised
9 him as to the way in which he should enter his plea in respect of the
10 counts he is charged with.
11 I came to The Hague only yesterday. I saw, I met, I had meetings
12 with all the people here. I left all my telephone numbers with them and
13 was -- and hoped that I would be contacted. But I could not establish --
14 get in touch with the Prosecution yesterday because I had to go to the
15 Detention Unit.
16 So it is not a matter of attitude in the sense of procrastination
17 or dragging my feet, it is just something which so happened by dint of
18 circumstance. It is not a matter of my wanting it to be that way, Your
19 Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And when did you for the first time make contact with
21 Mr. Van der Spoel, who would be of course the first one to approach, since
22 he was in charge of Defence duties?
23 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Unfortunately, it was yesterday morning when I
24 was in Germany.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Why not two weeks ago?
Page 401
1 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Because I didn't have any -- any detail or any
2 phone number or any information about my learned colleague.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ask the OLAD for the -- for those details?
4 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yes, of course.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And did they give you the phone number for
6 Mr. Van der Spoel?
7 MR. OGNJANOVIC: No, I received his name and his family name two
8 days ago.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And then you immediately phoned him, I take it?
10 MR. OGNJANOVIC: I tried -- I tried. It was day before yesterday,
11 but for the first time we hear each other and had a phone contact
12 yesterday morning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not spend too much time on it,
14 Mr. Ognjanovic.
15 This Tribunal expects you to take an active attitude in whatever
16 happens before this Tribunal. And I am, to be quite honest, a bit
17 surprised that you learned only two weeks ago about the preference
18 expressed by Mr. Zelenovic to be assisted by you. I'll verify this with
19 the Registry why you were not informed at an earlier stage about this and
20 to give me more details.
21 Mr. Ognjanovic --
22 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- The Chamber did not much appreciate the course of
24 events until now. We have discussed it. It's not my habit to go over
25 matters a hundred times again, but please be aware of the position the
Page 402
1 Chamber takes in this respect.
2 Is there any matter you would further like to raise? I know that
3 you are not counsel yet, but if there would be anything that you would
4 like to be discussed, please tell me, then I'll -- I'll give you an
5 opportunity to communicate with Mr. Van der Spoel to see how we would
6 proceed.
7 Is there anything you would like to raise at this moment?
8 MR. OGNJANOVIC: There is not any further issues except I would
9 like --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. OGNJANOVIC: I would like to visit my client, if it is
12 possible, today afternoon in UNDU.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Judges are not masters of the schedule of
14 the --
15 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yes, I know.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- the visiting schedule, but of course I take it
17 that Mr. Van der Spoel will give you the guidance you need to -- to visit
18 your client as soon as possible.
19 Mr. Ognjanovic, you are aware of time-limits set for preliminary
20 motions?
21 MR. OGNJANOVIC: Yes, I know.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, if you would like to file them,
23 they should be filed by -- by when?
24 MR. OGNJANOVIC: I believe I'll do it in the next two weeks.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not an answer to my question, but let's
Page 403
1 leave it as it is.
2 We stand adjourned, and I announce that I do not know whether the
3 next hearing will be a hearing of Trial Chamber I or whether you'll hear
4 in between from the Referral Bench. And, Mr. Ognjanovic, as soon as
5 you've taken over responsibilities, please keep in mind that you are
6 playing chess on two boards at this moment and that you should keep a
7 close eye on time-limits, both in the referral case and in this case which
8 is pending before Trial Chamber I.
9 We stand adjourned.
10 --- Whereupon the Further Appearance
11 adjourned at 8.28 a.m.
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