090930ED

Page 529

1 Q. And yesterday were you provided with an opportunity to listen to

2 an audio file of your testimony in that case?

3 A. Yes, I did have that opportunity, and I did listen to it.

4 Q. And were you able to hear the questions of counsel and the

5 answers that you gave to those questions?

6 A. Yes. I listened to it in its entirety. I heard the questions

7 from the Prosecutor and also questions from the Defence and my answers to

8 the questions put.

9 Q. And if you were to be examined on those same topics again today,

10 would you provide that same testimony?

11 A. Yes. My testimony would be identical.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender into

14 evidence the -- the Rule 92 ter statements of this witness, if that's

15 necessary. I don't know if you propose to give them separate exhibit

16 numbers, or whether under the terms of your order that you made it simply

17 becomes part of the trial -- trial evidence. And I don't know whether

18 you want to give the testimonies and statements that we hope to be

19 adducing today and in the future separate exhibit numbers, P whatever.

20 If it ...

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: We would prefer to have them admitted as

23 exhibits.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly. If that's the case, then I ask that

25 the two transcripts from the 16th and 17th of June, 2003, be admitted

Page 530

1 into evidence.

2 THE REGISTRAR: If the counsel could kindly refer to the 65 ter

3 number.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. My apologies for that. The 65 ter number

5 is 10004.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Will become Exhibit P34 under seal, Your Honours.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, it was my understanding that the

8 instruction from the Trial Chamber was that a part that -- parts of the

9 statement or the transcripts which the Prosecution intends to rely on

10 would be highlighted in -- in the documents in order to avoid the -- the

11 enormous amount of material. That was my understanding of the principle

12 that we were going to use in this case.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm just checking now as we -- if Your Honours

14 would give me a moment to see that the -- yes. I see yellow on the

15 exhibit. Yes, it's marked. The electronic file's marked.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: It will have the yellow and the blue.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. I just needed this clarification.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

21 We noted that it was marked.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, I just want to seek some clarification about various

24 aspects of the testimony that you provided back in 2003. You provided a

25 lot of evidence about events in your municipality, but I want you to turn

Page 531

1 your mind to events in June of 1992, and in fact, the period of time soon

2 after Bajram in June of 1992. In your evidence you describe some attacks

3 on villages around Kotor Varos, and you describe the movements of

4 villagers who were congregating at various locations in other villages,

5 and you describe your own movements.

6 Eventually you describe going to a place called Plitska, and

7 eventually from Plitska going off to negotiate with Serb forces. And you

8 say that you went with two other gentlemen whose name I don't need to

9 mention now. And you describe being stopped by policemen wearing blue

10 uniforms.

11 Can you remember how many policemen stopped you?

12 A. At the bridge of the Bosanka River we were stopped by a group of

13 young men. Some of them were in blue uniforms of the reserve police

14 forces in Yugoslavia, a uniform that was well known to me. Some of them

15 were in camouflage uniforms. It was a group of five to seven young men.

16 I can't really say the exact number. Of course I knew all of those young

17 men because these were all people from the neighbourhood. The last names

18 were Djuric, Krezovic, Tepic, and so on. It was a group of five to seven

19 men. Some of them were in reserve police uniforms and some were in

20 camouflage uniforms or partially camouflage and partially civilian

21 clothing.

22 Q. Thank you. Were the policemen who were dressed in blue uniforms,

23 were they armed?

24 A. They were armed.

25 Q. Thank you. And the other men who weren't in blue uniform, the

Page 532

1 who were dressed this camouflage uniform or partially camouflage in

2 civilian clothing, can you tell us, if you know - and tell us if you

3 don't know - but can you tell us if you know if there were members of any

4 armed formation such as the police or the army?

5 A. They were armed. I don't know which formations they belonged to.

6 That's something I really cannot say with certainty. I assume that these

7 were people who belonged to units of the Territorial Defence.

8 Q. And what had been your intention as you approached these -- these

9 men who were armed and in uniform? What had you been hoping to achieve

10 by going down to this place?

11 A. I expected that was the intention, and my assignment was with two

12 companions who were accompanying me to set up -- or to establish contacts

13 with Mr. Slobodan Zupljanin and to possibly have talks and possibly agree

14 about the possibility of stopping any kind of combat actions and to find

15 some sort of solution about what to do with the population, how to take

16 the population out. The wish was to help people in some way and to

17 prevent further escalation of the conflict.

18 Q. Were you and your two companions armed?

19 A. No, we were not armed.

20 Q. Were you and your two companions members of the police or in any

21 armed group, members of an armed group?

22 A. We were not members of any military formation, neither of us.

23 Q. Thank you. In your testimony back in June of 2003, you further

24 describe being taken after your arrest to the Maslovare primary school.

25 Were your two companions also arrested and taken to the place? By that I

Page 533

1 mean the two men who accompanied you down to -- to the point where you --

2 where you were arrested.

3 A. They were with me as far as a catering facility in the centre of

4 Vrbanjci where we met Mr. Zupljanin, Slobodan Zupljanin. His nickname

5 was Bebac. Of course then they were separated from me in this cafe.

6 That's where they were separated from me, and I was taken in a civilian

7 van with some other people who had been brought there to the primary

8 school in Maslovare.

9 Q. What was the ethnicity of the people who were taken with you to

10 the primary school?

11 A. The group that was taken with me in that van were all Muslims.

12 In Maslovare, in the primary school we saw that there were some Croats

13 there as well.

14 Q. Okay. Now, you've described in your evidence that people

15 congregated and kept in a room at Maslovare, the primary school. What

16 was the ethnicity of those people? Were they all Croats, or were there

17 other ethnicities there as well?

18 A. Muslims and Croats were there, Muslims and Croats.

19 Q. Thank you. And when you were taken from the point of your

20 arrest, the place where you were arrested, the place where you saw those

21 men, those policemen in the blue uniform, to Maslovare Primary School,

22 were you escorted?

23 A. Yes. There were soldiers in camouflage uniforms. Some of them

24 had white cross belts, and I assume that they were members of the

25 military police.

Page 534

1 Q. Okay. So do I -- do I understand -- tell me if this is correct:

2 You were -- you were escorted from the point of arrest to the Maslovare

3 Primary School by soldiers. Is that correct? Not policemen.

4 A. Yes, soldiers, absolutely.

5 Q. Thanks. Do you know -- well, you testified in June of 2003 that

6 you know a gentleman maimed Savo Tepic. How long had you known that man

7 in 1992?

8 A. Mr. Savo Tepic and I have known each other from childhood. We

9 went to the same primary school. We were born in the same local commune.

10 Perhaps there's an age difference of three or four years between us. And

11 we also graduated in mechanical engineering, and we worked in the same

12 company. I worked there until the 11th of June, and before that

13 Mr. Tepic had taken on the post of the chief of police of Kotor Varos

14 after the local elections there -- or, rather, after the parliamentary

15 elections.

16 Q. Thank you. In your evidence you describe eventually being taken

17 from Maslovare Primary School to the police station. Perhaps before I

18 get to the police station I should ask you the manner in which you were

19 taken out of Maslovare Primary School. Was everyone in the room taken

20 away or just yourself or a selection of individuals?

21 A. I think that there was a period in the morning when we were

22 called out and taken out. Myself and a young man who was a Croat - his

23 name was Marijan Miskic, were taken out from the facility. There was a

24 vehicle waiting for us. I think it was a civilian and not a military

25 vehicle. And the two of us were taken with handcuffs from the Maslovare

Page 535

1 Elementary School to the police station in Kotor Varos. Just the two of

2 us, myself and Mr. Marijan Miskic.

3 Q. Okay. And the other people who had been in the room with you,

4 they were left behind at Maslovare; correct or not?

5 A. Yes, they stayed at Maslovare.

6 Q. And who - tell us, if you know - who transported you or escorted

7 you from Maslovare to the police station?

8 A. I don't know the names of the people. In any case, these were

9 young men who were known to me. The only person whom I knew well from

10 before was Mr. Nebojsa Sebic. He was in a soldier's camouflage uniform,

11 and judging by the quality of the uniform and his conduct, he must have

12 been some sort of senior officer in the military formation that was

13 stationed at that school at that time.

14 Q. Thank you. Were there any policemen in the group or who escorted

15 you from Maslovare to the police station?

16 A. It was mostly soldiers. There was no one there from the civilian

17 police. I assume since one of the young men had white cross belts on and

18 a white belt that he was a member of the military police.

19 Q. Thank you. You testified about arriving at the police station.

20 The first night that you were at the police station, did you see

21 Savo Tepic?

22 A. Yes. In the corridor while it was still not known which room we

23 would be placed in on the floor, I did see Mr. Tepic in the corridor.

24 Q. Okay. Doing the best you can, was that when you first arrived

25 there or later in the evening? Can you recall? Later in the day?

Page 536

1 A. Just when we came. We were still not placed anywhere. We were

2 still in the corridor.

3 Q. What -- what sort of condition were you in at the time that

4 Savo Tepic -- that you saw Savo Tepic?

5 A. I was in handcuffs in some sort of sorry state. I was afraid.

6 There was beating on the way. In any case, it was a very ugly picture.

7 Q. And what about your companion, the young Croatian man? What sort

8 of condition was he in?

9 A. Mr. Marijan Miskic was in even a worse state than myself. As he

10 was being brought in he was beaten, and he looked much worse than I did.

11 Q. Did either of you have any blood on your clothing or on your

12 faces?

13 A. The clothes were wet. There was nonstop rain in the course of

14 those few days, and they were dirty. We were quite a mess.

15 Q. All right. And from -- when you saw Mr. Tepic, can you tell us,

16 again doing the best you can, if he would have been in a position to see

17 you and your Croatian companion?

18 A. I sincerely hoped, giving my previous relationship with

19 Mr. Tepic, I secretly hoped for some protection, but it was my impression

20 that Mr. Tepic completely ignored us as if we didn't exist and as if he

21 did not see us.

22 Q. Thanks for that, but notwithstanding what you hoped for, just

23 tell us this: Was Mr. Tepic in a position to see you and your Croatian

24 companion?

25 A. Absolutely. It's a corridor. There were no other people there

Page 537

1 save for those escorting us and the two of us. Certainly he could see

2 us.

3 Q. Thank you. In your evidence you describe a couple of visits that

4 you made out of the prison that you were later kept in. One was to the

5 workers' university and the other one was to Banja Luka. I want to ask

6 you about the Banja Luka visit.

7 You described being taken out of the police station and taken to

8 Banja Luka, I think the next day after you were first taken to the police

9 station. Who took you from Kotor Varos to Banja Luka?

10 A. A civilian Golf car was used. The driver was a gentleman whom I

11 had known somewhat. I learned his first and last name only later. It

12 was Zdravko Samardzija. He wore a camouflage uniform with a camouflage

13 hat which resembled a cowboy hat.

14 Escorting us was Mr. Vlado Novakovic, a young man whom I had

15 known well previously. He wore a reserve police uniform, that is to say,

16 a blue one.

17 Q. Thanks. And about Mr. Samardzija. Can you tell the

18 Trial Chamber if he was a member of the police?

19 A. I met Mr. Samardzija then at that time. He took us to Banja Luka

20 and returned us back to the police station and to the prison in

21 Kotor Varos. We never met afterwards. I don't know what military

22 formation he belonged to, but in any case he wore the uniform I

23 described, a camouflage uniform with a camouflage hat resembling a cowboy

24 hat.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2142, please.

Page 538

1 Q. Do you recognise that building?

2 A. This building should be the police building in Banja Luka, in

3 Marsala Tita Street, across the road from the court in Banja Luka. On

4 the right-hand side of the picture there should be the school of

5 electrical engineering and the Ferhadija. I think Mr. Samardzic brought

6 us to this building.

7 Q. Is this a CSB building or an SJB building?

8 A. I must say that the acronym CSB is unclear. I suppose it's the

9 centre of security services. In any case, I don't know. It was a police

10 building. It had been a police building prior to the war in Banja Luka.

11 I had never been in that building. This was the only occasion, and thank

12 God it was the last. I never visited the building before that, although

13 I do know that it was a police building. I suppose it was sort of a

14 central building for the police in Banja Luka. All other police stations

15 that I was aware of were far smaller and modest in appearance. I suppose

16 this would be the principal police building in Banja Luka.

17 Q. Thanks. You describe in your evidence being taken there and

18 suffering some light blows and threatening gestures.

19 Were you kept in the one place in the building, or were you taken

20 around?

21 A. I was in only one room. In the room next door there was the

22 young man who was brought in with me, that is to say Marijan Miskic. We

23 were in separate rooms. In any case, I was in only one room. The only

24 times during which I left the room was to go to the toilet, and I was

25 always escorted.

Page 539

1 Q. Thank you. In your evidence you describe later catching up with

2 Mr. Miskic and being taken back to -- back to Kotor Varos. And you

3 describe him having broken ribs. Had he -- did he have broken ribs

4 before he went to the police, to this place, or did he sustain those

5 injuries there?

6 A. I must say that in this building I was not physically mistreated.

7 In the room next door one could hear constant shouting, moaning, and

8 noise. He was frequently taken out to the toilet. When we met again, he

9 could not walk in a normal fashion. He did complain of pain in his ribs.

10 Even the gentleman who was bringing us back said something to the extent

11 that if he is in that much pain because of the ribs, he should be allowed

12 to see a doctor.

13 As a result of that beating, Mr. Miskic suffered a lot, because

14 for a long time after that, in the Kotor Varos building -- prison, he

15 could not move about. He was a young man who had previously been quite

16 fit, but once he returned, he spent a lot of time simply lying on the

17 ground since he could not move about.

18 Q. Okay. And just to finish up with this topic. Looking at that

19 photograph, is the room that you were taken to shown in the photograph

20 anywhere by any chance, or is it not visible?

21 A. I cannot go into such detail. I really don't know. I know that

22 we were taken up to a floor, but I don't know to which room.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that

24 image.

25 JUDGE HALL: Tendered, admitted, and marked with the next number

Page 540

1 in the series.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P35, Your Honours.

3 MR. DI FAZIO:

4 Q. Right. In your evidence from June 2003, you describe at

5 considerable length your imprisonment until the 23rd of July, 1993. You

6 were kept in the same prison throughout that year?

7 A. Throughout that period I was in the same prison, until the

8 New Year's, I think, when we were transferred from the room number 3 to a

9 larger and better equipped room which was closer to the entrance.

10 Therefore, I did not move out of the prison. I was not transferred

11 anywhere.

12 Q. Thank you. What was the ethnicity of your fellow prisoners?

13 A. In the prison there were detainees of Muslim and Croat

14 background.

15 Q. I'd like you to give the Trial Chamber an idea of what exactly

16 this building was. And let's start with its pre-war use. What had this

17 place been used for prior to the outbreak of war in Kotor Varos?

18 A. As a member of the reserve force of the JNA, I used to go to that

19 building to be issued with military equipment that was due to the

20 military -- to the reserve force. I know that that building used to be a

21 TO warehouse during the Yugoslav times.

22 Q. Had the building ever been used as part of the formal prison

23 system existing in Bosnia prior to 1992?

24 A. I don't know whether anyone served their sentence in that prison

25 before that.

Page 541

1 Q. How long had it been used for TO purposes prior to 1992?

2 A. I don't know how long. I do know that it was used. For example,

3 as I was serving my military term in the 1980s, it was used for that

4 purpose. I don't know whether it was used to that end prior to that

5 period. I never actually entered the building at that time.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Zdravko Pejic?

7 A. I had known Mr. Pejic from earlier times. I think my first ID

8 when I turned 18 was issued to me in Kotor Varos by him. That's how I

9 know him as a police employee. He also appeared there during our time of

10 detention. He frequently visited the prison. I think he was a person

11 who had the authority to enter the prison at any time. He even issued

12 certain orders to those securing the prison.

13 During my stay in the prison, I frequently saw him.

14 Q. Was he a policeman during 1992 when you were in prison?

15 A. Mr. Zdravko Pejic usually arrived in a camouflage uniform, but it

16 was a blue camouflage uniform, not an SMB uniform. By that time one

17 could already see people in blue camouflage uniforms. This was a novelty

18 for us. We didn't even know such uniforms existed, because by that time

19 we had grown accustom to the SMB camouflage uniforms. It was my

20 presumption, therefore, that he was a police employee.

21 Q. Thanks. During the time that you were incarcerated, did you meet

22 or come to know a gentleman with the surname Zaric?

23 A. There was a young man who had been a policeman in Croatia prior

24 to the war there. That man also commanded the policemen in the early

25 period, in June and July, who were securing the prison. He commanded the

Page 542

1 group of policemen who manned the gate.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Prosecutor, may I remind you that you have used

3 35 minutes as of this moment.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I regret my underestimate. I've just

5 about wrapped it up, though, so I'm hopeful in finishing in the next

6 minute or two. Thank you. Thank you for that, Your Honours.

7 Q. Finally, the last name I want to put to you is a gentleman

8 bearing the surname Krejic. Did you know anyone in 1992 whilst in prison

9 with the surname Krejic?

10 A. At a given time a group of prisoners was taken out for work.

11 These detainees were Croats, and one of them, I think his name was Sipura

12 escaped. It is then that the entire structure in the prison was

13 replaced. Therefore, this Krejic man whom I had known since before the

14 war, replaced Mr. Zaric as the commander of the police force securing the

15 prison.

16 Q. Thank you. My last question is this. Just moments ago you said

17 that -- talking about the man you knew as Mr. Zaric, that he commanded

18 the policemen in the early period in June and July who were securing the

19 prison. Did police secure the prison throughout your incarceration, or

20 is it just in that period of time?

21 A. Throughout my period of incarceration in the Kotor Varos prison,

22 it was the police who secured the prison. Of course they rotated.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I have no further

25 questions.

Page 543

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Mr. Prosecutor. And we will

2 now, as I told you, pass the floor on to the two Defence teams, and the

3 first counsel who is going to cross-examine you will be Mr. Zecevic, who

4 is representing the accused Mico Stanisic, and Mr. Zecevic has asked for

5 40 minutes for his cross-examination of you, and we will grant him that.

6 Thereafter, Mr. Pantelic, who is representing the other accused,

7 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, will proceed with his cross-examination, and

8 Mr. Pantelic has asked for one hour, and we will give him that.

9 After the cross-examination of the two Defence teams, we might

10 ask the Prosecution if they have any short re-examination questions to

11 put to you, and when they have completed their questions maybe the Judges

12 on the bench will have some extra questions for you, and that will then

13 conclude your testimony for today.

14 I give the floor to Mr. Zecevic with -- and 40 minutes to

15 complete his cross-examination.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. In your statement, you say

19 that Kotor Varos, prior to the war, was a poor and -- poorly developed

20 municipality in Bosnia, much as the rest of the Krajina region.

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. The association of municipalities of Bosanska Krajina was formed

23 back in the 1980s.

24 A. I'm not aware of that fact.

25 Q. The municipality -- the association of municipalities of the

Page 544

1 Bosanska Krajina, including Kotor Varos, was formed prior to 1990.

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 Q. Thank you. You acted as vice-president of the SDA in

4 Kotor Varos. All different ethnic political parties were represented in

5 that municipality.

6 A. Yes, all three of them.

7 Q. Do you know when the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was

8 established?

9 A. I don't know a precise date of its formation.

10 Q. What about a year? 1990, 1991?

11 A. I must say that I don't know it precisely.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you know when the HVO was formed, the Croatian

13 Defence Council?

14 A. I don't know precisely. I don't know when the HVO was formed,

15 unfortunately.

16 Q. The Croatian national party, the HDZ, had its own political

17 structure in Kotor Varos?

18 A. Yes, it did.

19 Q. You are aware that the HVO had units in the area of the

20 municipality of Kotor Varos at the latest by September 1991?

21 A. I am not aware of any HVO units, and I don't know whether -- I

22 don't know when they were formed.

23 Q. You are probably familiar with the fact that the Crisis Staff of

24 the HDZ was formed as early as March 1992?

25 A. I don't know when the HDZ Crisis Staff was formed, but in my

Page 545

1 previous testimony I had an opportunity to go through some of the minutes

2 of a body called like that. It was part of evidence.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that the Crisis Staff of the HDZ was

4 formed in early March 1992, or do you require to see a document?

5 A. You don't need to do that. I suppose such a body was

6 functioning, and since I did see some of their minutes, I -- as evidence,

7 I suppose that is correct.

8 Q. When did the SDA establish its Crisis Staff?

9 A. I don't know what the date would be precisely. It involved

10 certain incidents and barricades along the main road. This in a way was

11 a reason to have a meeting at the municipal level of the party. I

12 presume it was in the spring of 1992.

13 Q. If I understand you correctly, as of spring 1992, both the HDZ

14 and the SDA had their respective Crisis Staffs in Kotor Varos?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You know, don't you, that the HDZ initiate the erection of

17 barricades in February and early March in Kotor Varos?

18 A. I know of the barricades. They came about as a result of an

19 incident, that is to say, a wounding.

20 Q. Please just answer my question.

21 A. I don't know whether it was the HDZ who initiated that process.

22 Q. I'll show you a document.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Can we have, please, 4002, 1D4002, on the e-court,

24 please. 4002.

25 Your Honours, I need your instructions. It has been uploaded and

Page 546

1 released as far as we're concerned. We checked that with the

2 technicians?

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: If you have a hard copy --

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I do.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- then we can put it on the ELMO.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Can we have the first page put on the ELMO, please.

7 The lower part. Thank you.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you see the document? It bears the

9 date of the 6th of March. In the last paragraph a certain Janja Mandic

10 says:

11 "We made a mistake concerning the barricades."

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, can I just ask a question to

13 counsel?

14 Since we don't read B/C/S very well, could you please explain to

15 us what this document is and where it comes from?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, this is -- the document, of course,

17 has a translation that's -- I'm sorry, but this is a technical glitch.

18 This is a document -- this is the minutes of the HDZ Crisis Staff meeting

19 held on the 6th of March, 1992, where they're discussing the barricades

20 where they are -- which they erected, and they are saying that obviously

21 they made a mistake. I'm just trying to help witness -- witness's

22 recollection. If he knows, of course.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried to answer your question

24 about the barricades. I am not familiar with this document. I can only

25 be aware of such minutes if presented to me by the OTP or Defence.

Page 547

1 This -- these are minutes of a group of Croats of whom I knew.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just first a -- I was just informed

3 that the document is in e-court. Okay.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, my question was this: Are you aware of

5 the fact that the HDZ and Croats erected barricades around the 5th of

6 March in Kotor Varos, yes or no?

7 A. I don't know who organised that. I do know, however, that there

8 were barricades.

9 Q. Thank you. In your statement you talk about the Patriotic League

10 and the Green Berets as illegal paramilitary organisations; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. These were, so to say, the military factions of the SDA; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Do you mean in general or only in the territory of Kotor Varos

16 municipality?

17 Q. Generally speaking.

18 A. Yes, they were.

19 Q. Do you know when these military factions or wings of the SDA were

20 formed?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. 1991 perhaps?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. In the area of Kotor Varos, some say that over 1 million

25 German marks were spent for arms in the area of Vecici and Vrbanjci in

Page 548

1 early 1992. Do you agree with that?

2 A. I don't know anything about that money. I'm not aware that such

3 a high sum of money was spent for arms.

4 Q. You know Sadikovic, don't you?

5 A. I know Mr. Sadikovic as of the time when the SDA was being formed

6 in the municipality. He was also assigned a position in the party.

7 Q. When you say "position," do you mean his tasks in the

8 organisation and arming of Muslims in the municipality?

9 A. No, absolutely not. I have in mind his position as the deputy

10 commander of the police in the Kotor Varos police station.

11 Q. Isn't it true that you disagreed with Mr. Sadikovic on the issue

12 of creation of the Muslim TO and the arming and organising of the Muslims

13 living in Kotor Varos Municipality?

14 A. I did not know him well before that time. Given the fact that

15 our party could appoint a leading person in the police as a result of the

16 elections, then that position being commander or deputy commander, it was

17 given to Mr. Sadikovic.

18 Q. I pray you -- you know we are limited in terms of time, please

19 answer my question. Is it correct that within the SDA you and

20 Mr. Sadikovic had diverging views on the issue of organising, arming, and

21 establishing a Muslim TO as well as its illegal process of arming? Yes

22 or no?

23 A. There were certain things that we disagreed on.

24 Q. Thank you. After you were detained, you were interrogated by the

25 State Security Service as a suspect, someone who allegedly took part in

Page 549

1 an armed rebellion; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, 33, 11, it's "armed rebellion," not

4 "around rebellion."

5 Q. [Interpretation] You recall having given at least two statements

6 to the State Security Service, don't you?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Could we have Exhibit 1D3994 on the e-court.

9 Your Honours, I'm sorry I missed -- because of the technical

10 glitch, I missed the previous document to be asked to be admitted as an

11 exhibit, the previous document which we found eventually on the ...

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm -- just --

14 JUDGE HALL: Just give us one moment, please. One moment,

15 please.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, we reluctantly agree that the document

18 should be admitted. Our reservation is based on the fact that the

19 witness, whereas he has alluded to it, he can't speak directly about the

20 contents of the document. He wasn't the -- it is something that puts a

21 bit of a context to what he's saying, what it is -- he is neither the

22 maker nor he is -- you get what I'm saying. But we do understand the

23 relevance, and it is for that limited reason that we agree that it should

24 be admitted as an exhibit. But the documents such as this in the future,

25 we would respectfully remind you to -- that they wouldn't -- that they

Page 550

1 can't be admitted as of right, as it were.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand and I appreciate, Your Honour.

3 Your Honours, I have a problem with the -- with the next two documents

4 because they are not redacted, and the witness's name appear on them. So

5 I would like your instruction --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: And it also appears on this particular document as

7 well, on the English translation.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Which document, the one --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: The one that was just admitted.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 MR. DI FAZIO: So I don't know. I think redactions might be

12 necessary.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: If the witness's name appeared on the last

14 document, it needs to be admitted under seal.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: It doesn't.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D1 under seal, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, did or did not the name appear?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I understood that it might have been -- the

19 document might have had a camera on it and the name might have gone out

20 to the wider public. I'm informed by my colleagues.

21 Would Your Honours just give me a moment, please.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm also sorry, Your Honours. I believe we've

24 already introduced some documents. I'm pretty sure with it, so this

25 cannot be 1D1.

Page 551

1 MR. DI FAZIO: No, the previous document, there was not a name.

2 I made a mistake; I apologise. It's on the current document that the

3 name appears.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

5 THE REGISTRAR: My apologies, Your Honours, the document is

6 indeed 1D6, and it should not be under seal.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. Can we go into the private session so I can

8 present these redacted statements to the witness.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm being told that we need not go into private

10 session, but what we can do is that we can make sure that the documents

11 are not exhibited to the public or shown to the public. So we can stay

12 where we are in open session, but we will prevent documents from being --

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- transmitted.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much. Can the witness please be

16 shown document 3994.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry. Can the witness be shown the last page with

19 his signature, please.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, is this your statement?

21 A. I would like to read it in its entirety, if possible.

22 Q. Absolutely.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: If Your Honours would like me to provide the -- the

24 hard copy, maybe it's easier for the witness to ...

25 Your Honours, I hope this is not affecting my time. I'm really

Page 552

1 sorry, but there is nothing I can do about it.

2 Q. [Interpretation] The question was: Do you recognise this as your

3 statement?

4 A. Yes, that's the statement, and it contains the elements. I do

5 recall some details. Yes, this is my statement.

6 Q. Thank you. In your statement you talk about this conflict with

7 Sadikovic -- or, rather, the differences of opinion with Sadikovic, who

8 was in favour of arming and the forming of the TO, illegal arming, thus

9 which you were against. It's clear -- it was clear to you then that

10 something like that constitutes an armed rebellion, doesn't it not -- was

11 it not?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. And that is why you were of the opinion that this should not be

14 done, because this would provoke inter-ethnic or international conflicts

15 in that area?

16 A. Throughout the entire conflict, I wanted to seek ways to find a

17 peaceful solution or a solution by peaceful means.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe the statement witness has recognised as

20 his own, and I would move the Trial Chamber to admit it into evidence,

21 please.

22 JUDGE HALL: Tendered, admitted, and marked.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D7 under seal, Your Honours.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Can the witness be shown the document 3990. It's

Page 553

1 another of his statements, and I'm providing the hard copy to the witness

2 so he can refresh his memory. The document is in the e-court 3990.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recognise this -- this statement as

4 yours? This is a supplement -- supplemental statement to the one we

5 looked at before of the 20th of June, 1992.

6 A. Yes, this is my statement, but if you permit me, I think that I

7 was interviewed only once in the sense of an investigation previously

8 in -- about the matters in that building in Banja Luka. I don't recall

9 giving a statement on two occasions.

10 Q. Can you please look at the signature. Is it your signature in

11 that statement?

12 A. Yes. This is my signature.

13 Q. So you are saying, this is my statement, this is my signature,

14 but I do not recall when I provided it," but you do allow for the

15 possibility that this is your statement.

16 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours can I move the Trial Chamber to admit

18 this statement as he recognised his signature.

19 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D8, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, would you be good enough to explain to

22 us what the evidence is that you wish us to extract from this document?

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, this is -- in these two

24 statements the witness is talking about -- about his disagreement with

25 Mr. Sadikovic in -- within the Party of Democratic Action in Kotor Varos

Page 554

1 where Mr. Sadikovic and some other persons were organising the -- the

2 Muslim TO and illegal arming and organisation of the military

3 organisation, like basically an armed rebellion. And for the purposes of

4 this trial, I think it's very relevant since the witness was arrested

5 based on his alleged taking part in the armed rebellion and --

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Apologies, Your Honours. Exhibit 1D8 should be

8 under seal, I think.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Yes, under seal, please.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, during the examination-in-chief by my

11 colleague the Prosecutor, on page 25, lines 5 to 7, you talked about

12 serving in the military and being in the JNA reserves.

13 A. Yes. I did serve the military term of duty, and I was in the

14 reserve forces of the Kotor Varos TO detachment.

15 Q. Territorial Defence as part of the --

16 A. Yugoslav People's Army.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me the equipment that you were

18 issued from the TO warehouse. Did you keep it at home?

19 A. No, I didn't keep the equipment at home. During the previous two

20 years I was more engaged on work duties, and I was not issued with

21 equipment.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... take a break

23 now. It's 90 minutes, so we will adjourn -- in 20 minutes.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have probably five minutes.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Registrar, how much time has counsel have left?

Page 555

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I've been told that you have five minutes left.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry, there was a mistake. The Registrar is

6 re-checking.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe, according to my calculation, at least

8 15 minutes.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, we will have the break now. The

11 Registrar informs me that you have ten minutes left.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: But we might grant you an extra five minutes.

14 Thank you. We will adjourn and come back at five minutes past

15 half 12.00.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 --- Recess taken at 11.16 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you please push the button, and also the

20 security officer.

21 And Mr. Zecevic, would you be helpful. Okay, thanks.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Everything is coming down at the same moment,

23 Your Honours. I'm saying that everything is coming down at the same

24 moment, so there is no need for me to push another button.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: It was just -- it was just to save time so that

Page 556

1 the usher didn't have to do it.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, we are given to understand that you

5 have a concern as to the amount of time you have left to complete your

6 cross-examination. According to our record-keeping, the 40 minutes that

7 you had indicated earlier that you would have required, that you have,

8 give or take, eight minutes that have remaining. Now, we appreciate that

9 our calculations may not have accounted for the procedural issues which

10 would have arisen, but how much more time do you now think that you would

11 need?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I said Your Honour -- I said to Your Honours,

13 probably you didn't understand me, that I would be able to finish in

14 five minutes. But I was just concerned because we gave -- we gave two

15 hours for the whole four witnesses, and that is why I'm concerned about

16 the time, because we might need to cross-examine another witness for a

17 longer period of time, and that is why I'm concerned if -- if procedural

18 matters are accounted against my time. That's -- that was the only thing

19 that I raised with the -- with the Registry. Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE HALL: But immediately in terms of this witness --

21 MR. ZECEVIC: In terms of this witness five minutes more or less.

22 JUDGE HALL: So we don't have a problem.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: No, we don't have a problem with this witness. No,

24 no, I'm just -- I was just referring to the general requirement of two

25 hours which I requested, yes.

Page 557

1 JUDGE HALL: We understand.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, before the break we talked about the fact

4 that you were in the reserve TO of the JNA and that you were not issued

5 with any equipment. When I said "equipment," I met a uniform. You were

6 not even issued a uniform, or were you?

7 A. I don't remember if I had a uniform at my apartment or not, but

8 just the uniform, no weapons.

9 Q. Right. Just the uniform. This is what I would like to know. If

10 you do not recall if you had one, do you know anyone who did have

11 uniforms issued to them which they kept at their home or not?

12 A. People who were going to the front in Croatia, who had responded

13 to the mobilisation, mostly did have uniforms.

14 Q. I'm speaking generally about the reserve forces, the JNA

15 reservists. I'm not talking about the 1990s, I'm generally speaking from

16 the time that you had completed your term of duty in the JNA armed forces

17 in the 1980s or 1980. After that you were transferred to the reserves

18 just like many others, and when you were transferred to the reserve

19 forces you should have been issued a uniform which you were supposed to

20 take home; is that right?

21 A. Yes, I was issued with a uniform from the reserve forces, but as

22 far as I can recall the last two years, because my work duties, I was

23 released from the TO unit, and I was supposed to return the uniform,

24 which is, I think, what I did sometime in 1989, perhaps, or 1988.

25 Q. Thank you. So we clarified this. This referred to you because

Page 558

1 of the specific nature of your work duties, but the others had their

2 uniforms at home, didn't they?

3 A. Yes, they did.

4 Q. Can you please tell me, when you were arrested and when you

5 stayed in all of those places where you stayed, people were dressed in

6 different uniforms. You referred to camouflage uniforms, olive-grey

7 uniforms, reserve forces, olive-grey uniforms, a combination civilian

8 clothing and uniforms, camouflage uniforms that were blue, police

9 uniforms, some cowboy hats. What I'm trying to say is that during the

10 time that you were arrested and held in all of those places, people

11 appeared in all kinds of uniforms, didn't they?

12 A. On my way from Vrbanjci to Maslovare and on the way back to the

13 Kotor Varos police station, I did see people who were dressed in that

14 way, yes.

15 Q. If -- so you would agree with me that the uniforms people were

16 wearing did not indicate that they were members of a particular unit.

17 Would you agree with that?

18 A. Yes. I would not be able to say to which military formations

19 they belonged, absolutely.

20 Q. On page 27 of the transcript, lines 6 and 7, in response to a

21 question by the Prosecutor whether the police was securing that prison

22 where you were, which was actually a TO depot, you said that "during the

23 period that I spent in the Kotor Varos prison, it was the police that was

24 guarding that prison, and they rotated." But what you know, actually, is

25 that these were persons who were wearing some sort of police uniforms.

Page 559

1 You don't actually know that they were police officers or policemen; is

2 that correct?

3 A. I know that they wore police uniforms, and the two persons

4 referred to by name, I knew that previously they worked in the police

5 station as policemen up until the incident. I am thinking of Mr. Krejic

6 and Mr. Zaric.

7 Q. But you do allow for the possibility that they were mobilised

8 into some military formation at that particular point in time?

9 A. Well, such a -- such a possibility does exist. I'm talking about

10 their uniforms and their previous duties.

11 Q. I have one more question. When we spoke about the uniforms that

12 the reservists of the TO and the JNA kept at home, the same applied to

13 the reserve policemen, did it not? They also kept their police uniforms,

14 the reserve police uniforms, at home, didn't they?

15 A. I don't know. I did not belong to such a formation.

16 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions for you.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

18 No other exhibits. I was just checking out if I have something.

19 Thank you very much.

20 Your Honours, there is one matter which -- which we would need to

21 raise. Maybe it would be proper when the -- when the witness leaves,

22 because it's housekeeping matter. We just need to clarify something with

23 the exhibits from -- from previous cases. Is that okay, or do you want

24 me to raise it now?

25 JUDGE HALL: Does it affect this witness?

Page 560

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, it does affect this witness, but it's matter

2 on the -- well, I can say. Basically the Prosecution tendered his

3 transcripts from the other cases. Now -- from Brdjanin case, I believe,

4 and there is a number of -- of exhibits in that -- in that transcript.

5 So does these exhibits become part of our exhibit list? If they are,

6 they have to have the numbers. I'm just wondering what is the situation

7 about that.

8 Thank you.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 [Trial Chamber and senior legal officer confer]

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, the Chamber issued an order

14 yesterday -- or a decision, sorry, in which we admitted into evidence the

15 transcripts of this witness's testimony in earlier cases, the case

16 against Brdjanin being one of them, in which this witness testified. In

17 doing so, we also admitted those exhibits that were tendered through this

18 witness at the Brdjanin trial and the other trials. That is to say those

19 exhibits which appears -- which appear on the Prosecution's 65 ter list,

20 again the idea being that we simply do not wish to admit anything that

21 has not appeared on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

22 So that's the answer to your question. So those exhibits that

23 did appear on the Prosecution's 65 ter list and that were tendered

24 through this witness in his early testimonies in other cases have been

25 admitted.

Page 561

1 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honours, with all due respect, how are we

2 going to refer to those exhibits? They should have exhibit number in

3 this case. We can't call them whatever, 1D375 from Brdjanin. They have

4 to have a number in this case.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Absolutely.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: But how are we going to deal with that? That was

7 the essence of my question.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I need to bring this to your attention,

12 because this -- this was an issue that was -- was discussed during some

13 of our pre-trial proceedings, and I frankly have to confess that I don't

14 know that it was ever completely clearly resolved. We had taken the

15 position that for those 92 ter witnesses, when there were prior

16 transcripts that made references to exhibits that were admitted or shown

17 to those witnesses in that testimony should be part of the 92 ter package

18 that you as the triers of fact would want to have in order to fully

19 understand their testimony without the necessity of giving each of those

20 separate exhibit numbers. And because we were taking that position, I

21 think for a lot of these 92 ter prior transcripts and prior statements

22 where perhaps specific exhibits had been discussed in the written

23 statements. They were shown, identified by an ERN, and discussed by the

24 witness. I think a large number of those are not on our 65 ter exhibit

25 list that was filed at the time we filed our pre-trial brief. Because we

Page 562

1 viewed those sort of in the same way we view expert reports, that it's

2 included within that package so that you can have an understanding of the

3 transcript.

4 I think Mr. Zecevic raises a good point. If we're going to have

5 those exhibits be in evidence in this case, they do get a number. And

6 you'll also need a key because Exhibit P113 in Brdjanin will be 65 ter

7 number 912 in this case, and we'll get a P number that's going to be

8 different than the Brdjanin number or the Krajisnik number or the

9 Milosevic number, whatever case the transcript comes from. And we would

10 like you to have those exhibits to put the testimony in context and read

11 it.

12 Now, a number of the exhibits that are of particular importance

13 to us, of course, are on our 65 ter list and will be introduced

14 otherwise. But, frankly, I don't know how to deal that -- deal with

15 that, and I wanted to bring it to your attention.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 [Trial Chamber and senior legal officer and

18 registrar confer]

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis and Mr. Di Fazio --

20 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- and Counsels, let me be clear if I can about

22 the policy of admission of documents into evidence that we have chosen in

23 this trial. The policy is that documents outside the parties' 65 ter

24 lists are not admissible. In other words, we simply do not wish to deal

25 with documents that we cannot find in the parties' 65 ter list

Page 563

1 respectively.

2 Now, you have a great number of documents already in your 65 ter

3 list. If you wish to see other documents admitted into evidence, then

4 please move to have them included in your list. And when the comes to

5 the two Defence counsels, then the advice is the same for you. The

6 Chamber will not consider documents -- or admission of documents that are

7 not included in your 65 ter lists.

8 That's the first issue. The second issue about the numbering of

9 those exhibits that came in by our decision yesterday, we do not at this

10 moment have a full overview of exactly how many documents it was, so what

11 we propose to do, just for now, is to say that these exhibits that came

12 in through our decision yesterday will be given exhibit numbers, and that

13 the way we'll do it is that we'll have the transcripts given an exhibit

14 number, and then the adjacent documents that came in through the

15 witness's testimony in that transcript will then be given decimal

16 numbers, that is to say, exhibit number so-and-so, .1, .2, .3, and so on

17 so that we can find the relevant documents relating to the witness's

18 testimony as it appears in that particular transcript.

19 I think that's the smartest and the simplest way to go ahead. So

20 what we will do, we will ask the court officer to consult with the

21 parties after this hearing and then sort out the issue of numbering. And

22 maybe tomorrow or maybe on the next time we have a hearing, then we will

23 just use five minutes to read those exhibit numbers into the record.

24 So for now, Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Pantelic, if you would be good

25 enough to refer to the 65 ter numbers, the e-court numbers, for these

Page 564

1 documents if you wish to use them now, but they don't have an exhibit

2 number yet, but they will be given exhibit numbers very soon. So until

3 they're given exhibit numbers, please just use the other e-court

4 numbering systems.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honours, just one -- just one -- one

6 thing. As I understood Mr. Hannis just two minutes ago, a number of

7 these exhibits which are admitted by your decision yesterday pertaining

8 to this witness and his testimony in the previous cases are not on the 65

9 ter list of the OTP. So therefore, how will they become exhibits in this

10 case if they're not on the 65 ter list? I mean, I think this is in a --

11 in a clear contradiction.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: By asking the Chamber for leave to have them

13 admitted into their 65 ter list, and then we'll have a look at it, and

14 we'll decide whether or not they can be admitted into the 65 ter list and

15 from there into exhibits.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yeah. Okay. So first they have to ask to amend

17 their 65 ter list. And that brings me to another issue, I mean which is

18 very similar. This is the issue which we raised about the experts. The

19 expert reports contain the number of exhibits which are not on the 65 ter

20 list.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: May I suggest that we keep this discussion at a

22 later time when we can take some time off to deal with household

23 matters --

24 MR. ZECEVIC: I just wanted to --

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- and that we proceed with the witness for now.

Page 565

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I just wanted

2 to put the Trial Chamber on notice. Thank you.

3 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Before I begin, I would

5 propose, if it's convenient for witness to have B/C/S version of his

6 previous statement to OTP so that we can go through particular parts if

7 necessary.

8 So, Ms. Usher, please can I have your assistance.

9 JUDGE HALL: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has no objection?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: These are the written -- written and signed

11 statements of the witness.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yeah, yeah. We got it -- it's a B/C/S version

13 that we got from you in disclosure procedure, yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no objection to prior statements being put

15 to the witness, but it seems to me that perhaps the -- Mr. Pantelic

16 should elicit whatever evidence he wants, and if he's got any problem

17 with the evidence he wants and then wants to make use of a prior

18 statement, that would be the normal procedure. Otherwise, in itself it

19 shouldn't be used at this stage. He should just cross-examine the

20 witness.

21 MR. PANTELIC: It's a matter just in case that witness needs some

22 refreshment of his memory for certain parts, that we shall not lost --

23 losing our time. That's the point.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I appreciate that, and I'm always grateful to make

25 up time, but the witness hasn't been asked anything yet. We don't know

Page 566

1 if he's got any memory problems, and if he does and it becomes necessary

2 for him to refer to his statement, that's the point at which it should be

3 produced, not at this stage.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic, we understand counsel for the

6 Prosecution's - and I mean no disrespect when I say - technical

7 objection. But for convenience we understand that it would be practical

8 for the witness to have the document now, but remember it is only being

9 used as the occasion arises as your questioning proceeds when you have

10 to -- whether he has to refresh his memory at a particular point.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. That was my goal. Thank

12 you so much.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, this is the one dated the --

14 October 1996 and May 1997. Thank you.

15 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. My name is

18 Mr. Pantelic, attorney-at-law. I represent Mr. Zupljanin.

19 You have had previous experience with the testimony in this

20 court, therefore you know the procedure. When I put a question to you,

21 you should wait for a few moments before answering to assist the

22 interpreters, to have a precise transcript, and to have everything

23 conveyed. So I kindly ask you, just pause briefly before answering.

24 A. Certainly.

25 Q. Witness, you were one of the founders of the SDA in Kotor Varos;

Page 567

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes, I was. I was one of the founders of the SDA in

3 Kotor Varos.

4 Q. Well, it suffices to say yes or no at this stage. We can move

5 more quickly that way.

6 Mr. Muhamed Sadikovic was also one of the founders of the SDA in

7 Kotor Varos; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Mr. Sadikovic was one of the founders of the SDA in

9 Kotor Varos.

10 Q. I kindly ask you again to say yes or no only. Do you know

11 Dr. Mirza Mujacic [phoen]from Prijedor?

12 A. Yes, I do know Mr. Mujacic.

13 Q. He was the president of the regional SDA board with its seat in

14 Prijedor; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You frequently met with Mr. Mujacic?

17 A. Not frequently. On several occasions.

18 Q. Prijedor is further away from Banja Luka than Kotor Varos is; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the reason to have the seat for the Regional Board for

22 the entire Krajina in Prijedor rather -- rather than in Banja Luka?

23 A. I'm not certain that the seat was in Prijedor. In any case,

24 meetings were frequently held in Prijedor.

25 Q. Mr. Muharem Krzic and Mr. Bajazit Jahic, were they also members

Page 568

1 of the Regional Board of the SDA?

2 A. As for Bajazit Jahic, I am not certain; and I think Mr. Krzic

3 was.

4 Q. Did you know that Mr. Muhamed Sadikovic was one of the authors of

5 a book called "To Testify to Crimes and Bosnian Patriotism"?

6 A. I have never read that book, but I have heard of its existence.

7 Q. Did you know that Mr. Muhamed Krzic was one of the authors of the

8 book?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. If I tell you that in that book Mr. Sadikovic spoke in detail

11 about the preparations for armed conflicts in the territory of

12 Kotor Varos municipality, you would agree with me that that fact is true.

13 A. I am sorry, I fail to understand the question.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe it's a matter of translation. I'll try to

15 be more succinct.

16 Q. [Interpretation] In that book Mr. Sadikovic speaks in detail

17 about the preparation for the arming of Muslim and Croat members in

18 Kotor Varos Municipality, does he not?

19 A. I have not read the book, and I don't know what it's about.

20 Q. Did you discuss that with any friends of yours? Did you discuss

21 the contents of the book since you were a prominent member of that

22 community?

23 A. I must say that several people whose names can be found in the

24 book were dissatisfied with seeing their names in the book at all. They

25 came to me to ask me for my opinion. I personally have no opinion about

Page 569

1 the quality of that book. I never found it necessary to actually read

2 it.

3 Q. Mr. Sadikovic was the commander of that military formation in

4 Kotor Varos Municipality, was he not?

5 A. I learned of him being commander upon my release from prison.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's not clear to me what

7 military formation we're talking about, unless I've missed something.

8 MR. PANTELIC:

9 Q. [Interpretation] We are talking about that Muslim unit in the

10 territory of Kotor Varos Municipality, aren't we?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I've still got a problem with that. No problem

12 with the line of questioning, but it's just got to be absolutely clear.

13 Are we talking about a SDA Muslim unit? What precisely are we talking

14 about here, because it could be any nature of animal.

15 MR. PANTELIC: I will clarify that with the witness.

16 Q. [Interpretation] So, we are discussing a military unit with

17 Muslim members. This was not exclusively a party unit.

18 A. I understood, Counsel, and the party was not mentioned in the

19 context of the unit, and I don't think you attempted to allude at that --

20 to that.

21 Q. Precisely, Witness. Tell me, before your arrest, what was your

22 position per some organisational plan that you should have been assigned

23 to in that unit?

24 A. I must say that I was one of the few whose war experience and

25 work experience was unrelated to that. I belonged to no military

Page 570

1 formation until the 11th of June, 1992.

2 Q. In your statement you say that you are well-versed in explosives

3 and mines; correct?

4 A. Yes. My JNA military service was in the field of engineering and

5 explosives.

6 Q. As part of that training, sabotage personnel are also experts in

7 the field of mines and explosives; correct?

8 A. In the reserve force of the JNA in Kotor Varos Municipality, I

9 was assigned to a sabotage reconnaissance unit. My military -- based on

10 my military speciality from the JNA during my time of service.

11 Q. You are a reserve officer. I understand what you are talking

12 about, but we should have this explained for the transcript and the

13 Chamber.

14 The acronym VES, V-E-S, that means that you have been trained in

15 a certain military speciality; correct?

16 A. Yes. This is a JNA term.

17 Q. From your statement I can see that you're exceptionally versed in

18 the different types of weapons. For example, you discuss a Thompson

19 rifle on page 4, paragraph 2, of your statement. Next, a PAP or

20 semi-automatic rifle is mentioned as well as a light machine-gun, M-72,

21 which is found on page 7, paragraph 2, of your statement.

22 The same page, number 7, you mention PM-84, which is a heavy

23 machine-gun, in paragraph four. Sorry, page 8, paragraph 2, since there

24 are differences between the versions.

25 Next you mention mortars, recoilless guns, and artillery, on

Page 571

1 page 10, paragraph 1.

2 Therefore, you have an exceptional knowledge about the types of

3 weapons. At least that is what I conclude.

4 A. I served my military term with the JNA, and I was decorated as an

5 exceptional serviceman, which at that time was a very highly valued

6 commendation.

7 As for the structure and weapons of the JNA, this is something I

8 was well acquainted with as a soldier at that time.

9 Regarding the specific types of weapons, during the war in

10 Croatia such weapons appeared in the territory of Kotor Varos

11 municipality as war booty or through some other channels. It was mainly

12 reservists who sported such weapons which belonged to the arsenal of the

13 JNA and were of the Crvena Zastava make. I know that much, but I

14 wouldn't say that I'm exceptionally well-versed in weapons.

15 Q. Did you have information about a large quantity of explosives,

16 TNT explosives that was seized on the border between Croatia and

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina? There were some 15 tons of explosive seized on that

18 occasion. Do you have any knowledge about that?

19 A. At which border crossing?

20 Q. Brod.

21 A. I seem to recall something that was published in the media. This

22 seems to have been an incident and that explosives were being

23 transported. I don't know any more detail than that. This is what I

24 could learn from the media.

25 Q. You are familiar with the name of Miro Petrusic?

Page 572

1 A. Yes. I know Mr. Miro Petrusic as an active-duty policeman in

2 Kotor Varos, although I'm not quite certain whether his first name is

3 Miro, if that is the policeman I have in mind.

4 Q. He was the secretary for All People's Defence at the level of

5 municipality and is a Croat by ethnicity.

6 A. I cannot picture the person in my mind.

7 Q. Did you know that Mr. Sadikovic, then Mr. Berbic, and

8 Mr. Petrusic participated in the procurement of weapons for the

9 aforementioned Muslim unit in the territory of the Kotor Varos

10 Municipality?

11 A. I did not.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, may I call please a document which

13 is in e-court, 2D04-0019, please.

14 Could you be so kind, please, to show B/C/S version ERN

15 number 00423686. It's page 3 of B/C/S version of document. And English

16 version is page 6, please. It is bottom, number 27, Sadikovic Muhamed

17 and Berbic Sulejman.

18 Q. [Interpretation] It is a poor copy, but I suppose you can see

19 that in item 27 we find Muhamed Sadikovic, and in item 28

20 Sulejman Berbic; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have first page, please, of this

23 document, both English and B/C/S version. Thank you.

24 Q. So you see that this is a criminal report dated the 27th of

25 October, 1993, submitted to the military prosecutor's office against

Page 573

1 those persons specified below. Is that so?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Sadikovic and Mr. Berbic concerning this

4 case, these proceedings?

5 A. Mr. Sadikovic and I are not on good terms. We have no

6 communication whatsoever.

7 As for Mr. Berbic, he works abroad, and I do not have an

8 opportunity to meet him.

9 If this is the person I have in mind, I believe proceedings were

10 instituted against him before the Banja Luka court.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, could we have exhibit number for this

13 document, please.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic, could you assist us? What is the

16 witness saying about his connection with this document?

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. These two persons which are on

18 the list of criminal charges of the initial criminal proceedings are

19 known to this witness as a member of this military formation in the

20 region of Kotor Varos, and simply we would like to show that certain

21 judicial actions were taken against certain number of people, like

22 against him when he was initially brought to police station to give

23 statements and then going so-called pre-trial criminal proceedings,

24 simply to have this picture, yes.

25 JUDGE HALL: Is that sufficient of a nexus to make the document

Page 574

1 admissible through him?

2 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, my idea was just to identify these

3 two persons through -- through this witness and to have it admitted as a

4 clear picture about the events of which this witness is speaking.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pantelic, I share the Presiding Judge's

6 bewilderedness here. You are showing us a document that tells us that

7 criminal proceedings were brought against two members of a military unit

8 that was established within the SDA in 1992. What is the relevance of

9 this in relation to this witness and to your case?

10 MR. PANTELIC: The nexus and the relevance is because this

11 witness know, among other names, these two person that I ask him,

12 Mr. Sadikovic who was the commander of that unit, and Mr. Berbic, who was

13 a member. Simply to confirm this fact.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But the witness has already at several occasions

15 confirmed that he knew Mr. Sadikovic and that he confirmed that

16 Mr. Sadikovic was the head of the unit. So that has already been

17 established several times by the witness.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Another aspect of this exhibit

19 is that we want to show that certain judicial proceedings were launched

20 against the alleged perpetrators. For example, this witness was also a

21 part of this procedure during the cross-examination of my learned friend

22 when, too, his statement in police -- state security police were made.

23 So simply it is a part of an aspect of proceedings against certain

24 individuals in the region of Kotor Varos, simply as that.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 577

1 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

2 MR. PANTELIC: And please show the witness page number 2 of the

3 B/C/S version ERN number 00861575, please.

4 Q. [Interpretation] At the top of that page you can see that it says

5 that in the area there is intensive reconnaissance activity and attempts

6 at organising an uprising of the Muslim population outside the conflict

7 areas, particularly in the area of Bosanska Gradiska and Kotor Varos. Do

8 you see that?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.

10 Q. Can you look at the bottom of that second page. And you can see

11 that the General Momir Talic, commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, is the

12 one who signed this document. Can you see that?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Show the witness, please, page 1 of this document

15 with the headings, please.

16 Q. [Interpretation] On the top left-hand side you can see that the

17 document was drafted on the 8th of June, 1992. Is that correct?

18 A. The 8th or the 10th. It says the 10th. Yes. It is -- that --

19 the date, the 8th of June, is typed, but then there is a correction

20 underneath that, stating that it was the 10th of June.

21 Q. So you would agree with me that an uprising was being prepared in

22 the Kotor Varos area by your compatriots. Isn't that correct?

23 A. If you permit, Your Honours, this is a report of the command of

24 the Krajina Corps, and this is their assessment.

25 I can say that the situation was very confusing in that period,

Page 578

1 and you can conclude by what I say that for a while, since the spring,

2 there were some disruptions and regular life was disrupted. Some

3 companies were not working. People were not going for their regular

4 leave. There was fear, insecurity, the constant presence of military

5 formations that were leaving for Croatia. So the document probably was

6 made on the basis of some assessments, but it's a document by the corps

7 commander. I cannot deny what is stated in the document.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Can we have exhibit number for this document,

9 Your Honour?

10 JUDGE HALL: Again the same questions occur as with the last

11 document you attempted to exhibit. The -- is this -- is he -- was he a

12 part of the -- is it his document? Was he a part of the command, for

13 want of a better expression, that would have produced this? Could you --

14 MR. PANTELIC: Obviously not, Your Honour, but simply this is

15 information that this witness knows about the events, from his knowledge,

16 of course, in territory of Kotor Varos about the armaments and

17 operations. Simply that, which is confirmed by this document.

18 JUDGE HALL: But to repeat what we said during the last

19 discussion, the witness's testimony as to his knowledge, his experience,

20 is what is clearly receivable. That there are documents in existence

21 which -- the background or contents of which he is familiar does not,

22 without more, make the document admissible as an item of evidence. And

23 I'm asking you to indicate to us why in this case it is your submission

24 that this document is admissible as an exhibit.

25 For myself, I don't see it immediately, but you may be able to

Page 579

1 persuade us.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Clearly -- just a moment.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, first of all, in accordance with your

5 guidelines, hearsay is admissible as far as I know. So he just confirm

6 the situation which was actually occurred in the territory of

7 Kotor Varos. And in addition to that, this document clearly confronts

8 certain portion of witness testimony. First of all, he is saying here

9 that everything was more or less calm in the territory of municipality of

10 Kotor Varos, that certain occasional incidents were -- broke out, but

11 this particular documents, as well as the future exhibits that Defence

12 will offer, clearly contradicts to certain portion of his statement.

13 Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. If I may be of assistance.

17 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, clearly this -- the hearsay is

19 admissible. The witness is giving weight to a hearsay document. Now --

20 I'm sorry. If we are to apply the standard as I understand the

21 Trial Chamber now to pursue, then we are going to have a huge problem

22 with the bar table admission of documents, because we will not have -- I

23 mean, that is the jurisprudence of this Tribunal, that the bar table

24 documents are admitted, but the bar table documents are not -- are not

25 introduced through a witness, just bar table documents.

Page 580

1 Now, if we have -- if we have this standard, I'm really getting

2 concerned about the bar table admission. I mean, I was just trying to

3 raise this point also so you have that in view during the deliberations.

4 Thank you very much. I'm sorry.

5 JUDGE HALL: I'm not unaware of that rule in terms of

6 admissibility, but our concern is at the end of the exercise a management

7 problem of allowing in a large volume of paper which may at the end of

8 the day not, in fact, be relevant. So we have to take these --

9 unfortunately -- I shouldn't say unfortunately. We can only deal with

10 these questions as they arise, one at a time. There's no other way of

11 dealing with it. And the immediate problem is that we don't see how this

12 assists.

13 Does the Prosecution have a view.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I mean the issue of the authenticity of the

16 document and the relevance or probative value of the documents are also

17 considerations that you should take into account in deciding this

18 question.

19 There's not much evidence at all from this witness - and I don't

20 expect there would be - concerning the actual authenticity of the

21 document. And so far the questioning hasn't revealed any high level of

22 any probative value of this document insofar as this witness is

23 concerned. He can't add anything to it or shed any light on its contents

24 that enhance your understanding of his evidence.

25 Perhaps a solution would be to have it marked for identification,

Page 581

1 and if the Defence want to deal with the -- try and tender the document

2 at a later stage after more evidence has been adduced in the case or

3 perhaps through another witness, then that might save their position and

4 also mean that the decision is deferred.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic, to the extent that the document speaks

7 to attacks in the area, for that limited purpose it appears -- there

8 appears to be some nexus, so we will admit this document, and it may be

9 marked as an exhibit.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D1 -- yes, that's correct --

11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

12 THE REGISTRAR: -- Exhibit 2D1, Your Honours.

13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, sir, you are an expert for military engineering. Can

15 you please tell me the village of Vecici in the Kotor Varos Municipality,

16 what sort of fortification facilities were built by your compatriots

17 there?

18 A. In the context of what event? What event does this question

19 refer to?

20 I apologise. I will answer gladly.

21 Q. In the context of the conflict with Serbian forces in the

22 territory of the Kotor Varos Municipality.

23 A. I apologise again, but do you have a specific date? Is it --

24 because before the 11th of June, there were no fortifications or

25 barriers, only in the event of some incidents there were some improvised

Page 582

1 barricades made of fallen trees on the Kotor Varos-Banja Luka road.

2 Q. And in the village itself, were there any armoured reinforced

3 cement bunkers or anything like that? Just say yes or no if you know.

4 A. No. I don't know about that, no.

5 Q. You are familiar with the events when two -- when

6 Milan Stevilovic, a colonel, and a high-ranking police official from the

7 Banja Luka CSB, Stevan Markovic, were killed, aren't you?

8 A. Yes. Of course I received this information and I heard this

9 story, but I was in prison at that time. I was already in prison at that

10 time.

11 Q. What did you hear? Who was the perpetrator of this ambush?

12 A. A group of young men carried out this ambush on the

13 Vrbanjci-Kotor Varos road in the Rujevica hamlet. This is where this

14 tragedy occurred, and several people were killed.

15 Q. These young men, they were Muslims, weren't they?

16 A. I don't know who they were. Most probably, yes, because in that

17 period Croats and Bosniaks were on good terms, and it could be that the

18 group was made up both of Muslims and Croats.

19 Q. And in one part of the statement you provided to the Prosecutor

20 you say that the resistance in the village of Vecici lasted for four to

21 five months. Do you recall stating that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It was quite strong resistance, I guess, and I assume that there

24 were plenty of weapons there as well.

25 A. Unfortunately, the events relating to the Vecici hamlet are of a

Page 583

1 tragic nature. After their attempt to get out via Travnik, a large

2 number of people are still being considered as missing, and there is no

3 logic to thinking that they had lots of weapons.

4 Q. I have to interrupt you. All I asked was that since the

5 resistance lasted for four to five months and since you or reserve

6 officer and familiar with military science, how can resistance be

7 sustained for a period of four to five months if there aren't

8 considerable weapons? Isn't that illogical?

9 A. You can sustain it in two ways, that the persons who are putting

10 up the resistance are strong and that the persons who are carrying out

11 the attacks are weak.

12 Q. All right. Let us proceed. If I were to read to you the

13 statement given by Mr. Sadikovic --

14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, could you hold on for ten seconds,

15 please. We are going to take a break. I just want to indicate to you

16 how much time you have left.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, maximum --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Maximum number 15 minutes, but I'll do my best to

20 even make less. Thank you.

21 JUDGE HALL: So we'll take a break now.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 --- Recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.

25 [The witness takes the stand]

Page 584

1 MR. PANTELIC: Can I proceed?

2 JUDGE HALL: Yes. You may continue, Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we kindly ask that

5 we wait until all background noise in the courtroom ceases. Thank you.

6 Could Mr. Pantelic please repeat his question. Thank you.

7 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Mr. Pantelic. The interpreter is asking you

8 to repeat your question because the noise of the blinds interrupted you.

9 Thanks.

10 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, if I read out Mr. Sadikovic's

12 statement, who, as you confirmed, was the commander of the unit in the

13 territory of Kotor Varos, which he gave on the 25th of June, 2003, in the

14 Brdjanin case, where you also testified, concerning weapons ... I'll read

15 in English since the official transcript is in English.

16 "At that time we had automatic weapons, the members of the

17 reserve force, for instance, had them, and they in part joined the

18 resistance and we also had hunting weapons because we had our hunting

19 society in Kotor Varos. There was quite a number of hunters, and people

20 made their weapons, they would take some pipings, pipes or tubes and make

21 something -- some sort of single-barrelled rifles or pistols with some

22 makeshift -- a certain number of our men had worked in Croatia and

23 Slovenia, which made explosives. So when they come home to Kotor Varos,

24 they brought those back. So they made those devices. Or at times, they

25 had bought the original TNT from Serbs. They bought so-called soaps

Page 585

1 [phoen], hundred-gram packages and used them to make bombs..."

2 In addition, he said that:

3 "We didn't have any hand-held launchers, not in the beginning.

4 But we had zoljas, which is a smallish anti-armour device which is used

5 to act against armoured vehicles. We didn't have Osa's at that time.

6 They were larger, and later on we captured some of them, and we captured

7 more machine-guns, so that later on we had more machine-guns, but this

8 was later brought, a group of guys who were in Travnik brought these --

9 brought one also to Vecici. I heard that one also had me brought with

10 three or four charges, but later on, we captured mortars..."

11 [Interpretation] Sir, you were not privy to those events given

12 your circumstances, but there's no reason not for you to confirm what the

13 commander of that unit said before this Tribunal, is there?

14 A. A statement given under oath or before this Tribunal, for me, is

15 something that I cannot comment as such. There would be no logic in it.

16 Q. My question was rather simple. You agree with this statement,

17 don't you?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Do you know where the village of Sedari [phoen] is?

20 A. Yes. Unfortunately, I am very familiar with that village.

21 Q. Mostly Serbs resided there; correct?

22 A. Yes. It was an ethnically-pure village for the most part.

23 Q. That village was attacked by non-Serb forces, was it not?

24 A. I later learned that the village was attacked. I learned that

25 only after I was released from prison.

Page 586

1 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what forces attacked it?

2 A. I have no precise information to that extent. As a person, I do

3 not like to recall the names of all these locations which went through

4 the worst. There is a number of such villages in Kotor Varos

5 Municipality. I don't like revisiting that. I wish that had never

6 happened. If I could ask for this Court's indulgence not to dwell on

7 this.

8 Q. I understand you fully, and we won't pursue this matter much

9 further, but you heard of certain civilian casualties aged between 4 and

10 64 who were Serbs; correct?

11 A. Yes. As of the moment I returned to Kotor Varos and in the past

12 ten years, and by reading the media, as well as by talking to some of the

13 survivors from that village, I began hearing of the atrocities there and

14 the number of civilian victims, and I truly sympathise with them.

15 Q. I fully respect what you said. You were also a municipal deputy.

16 Therefore, you are acquainted with the decision-making mechanism in the

17 municipality?

18 A. Yes, I was a deputy to the Municipal Assembly in Kotor Varos.

19 Q. If I read out to you that in the Brdjanin case, when asked about

20 the functioning of the Crisis Staff, Mr. Sadikovic said the following.

21 The question was:

22 "What happened with respect when the Assembly could not sit and

23 its functions were performed by a Crisis Staff. Could the Crisis Staff

24 issue direction to the police?

25 "A. Yes. In such instances, of course, the

Page 587

1 Municipal Assembly ceased to function. The Crisis Staff assumes all its

2 duties, and the Crisis Staff has more jurisdiction, more competencies

3 over other bodies, that is, and it can have its say in army or police

4 matters too."

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the problem with that

6 question is that it's not clear at all, firstly, what's being put to this

7 man who is sitting here in front of you; and, secondly, what Crisis Staff

8 was the witness in the other case talking about? That's not clear to me.

9 He is talking about a theoretical situation, talking about a SDA Crisis

10 Staff or a Serb Crisis Staff, Crisis Staff in Kotor Varos, or what? And

11 we should this sort of issue inject a lot more precision, in my

12 submission.

13 MR. PANTELIC: In my learned friend will be more patient, then he

14 will get the answer. So the question was designed to have answer, if

15 any, in theoretical terms. So it is not particular question regarding

16 Kotor Varos or anything else. It's simply question, answer, and opinion

17 of this witness because he is a member of municipal parliament, simply as

18 that.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE HALL: I thought I understood you, Mr. Pantelic, until the

21 last phrase you used about the witness giving his opinion. The -- but

22 that apart, how is the -- the general observations he has of assistance

23 to the Chamber?

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. In fact, one witness before

25 this court in Brdjanin case, Mr. Sadikovic, who was also a political

Page 588

1 figure, said certain things regarding the competence of Crisis Staff.

2 Mr. Witness is also a member of municipal municipality, so he is

3 a representative, and he should, theoretically, have his opinion

4 regarding the role and duty of Municipal Assembly in peacetime and

5 Crisis Staff in wartime, simply as that. So I just want to have his

6 opinion in very general and theoretical terms.

7 Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. DI FAZIO: But ...

10 Your Honours, I think I know where this issue is going. It's

11 going to be an inquiry of this witness of the theoretical powers of

12 Crisis Staffs to issue direction to police forces back in 1992. In fact,

13 I think that's what the commencement of the question was all about.

14 Now, if that's what Mr. Pantelic wants to raise with the witness,

15 then he can, and he should ask him directly.

16 Secondly, if Mr. Pantelic wants to adduce the evidence of

17 Mr. Sadikovic, of course he can at a later stage.

18 And thirdly, you have issued practice directions that

19 cross-examining -- the name of the witness -- when prior statements of a

20 witness given in another place, another session of evidence, counsel

21 should not mention the name of the witness, and that's a third matter of

22 concern.

23 The issue could simply be addressed by asking this witness if he

24 knows what the general position was with respect to Crisis Staffs issuing

25 directions to police back in 1992, if he's qualified, if he's qualified,

Page 589

1 to comment on that.

2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you for clarifying Mr. Pantelic's question.

3 Mr. Pantelic, now that you have had the opportunity to have your

4 question phrased by Defence Counsel -- by Prosecuting Counsel, could you

5 ask the witness again? A, his competence to speak to what you're trying

6 to get to; and, B, then what is -- what he says about it. So there are

7 two questions.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, can you tell us whether you agree with

10 Mr. Sadikovic's statement in which he said that the Crisis Staff in

11 wartime situations was a body which had some rather wide competencies in

12 relation to the military and police. Do you agree with it or not?

13 A. As a deputy to the Assembly, I am aware of the fact that the

14 Assembly is the most senior legislative body at the municipal level, as

15 at other levels as well. The Crisis Staff formed by the municipality

16 cannot take over the powers and competence of the Assembly. It has to be

17 established by virtue of a decree or a document issued by the Assembly.

18 Hence I disagree with all of the statement.

19 In certain extraordinary circumstances a Crisis Staff can take

20 over the role of an Assembly if it is unable to meet, but only within the

21 purview of its own authority. This is a legal matter which was regulated

22 by the statute of the municipality, its rules of procedure, and certain

23 legislation which are at its disposal.

24 Q. When you testified before this Tribunal in the Brdjanin case,

25 when asked by Judge Janu, you spoke about the role of the young policeman

Page 590

1 who I believe was the prison warden. You said the following:

2 "May I be allowed to say something. Because I feel it is my

3 duty. It has happened that the prison warden, that was a young man who

4 was a policeman, sometimes fire would be opened on him to gain access to

5 us, but he would then stand in front of some special formation and

6 protected us, that is, prevented them from entering the prison. They had

7 come to the prison in a very ill faith. And I do not wish you to think

8 bad about somebody only because he was a guard in a prison where I was

9 kept."

10 [Interpretation] Do you stand by your previous testimony today?

11 A. I apologise. What is your question?

12 Q. My question is do you still stand by the words you uttered in the

13 Brdjanin case?

14 A. I absolutely do. I established contact with that person in the

15 meantime, and I actually have regular contact with certain prison guards

16 in Kotor Varos. I live there. I meet those people. And with some of

17 them I'm even on friendly terms. The young man I referred to is

18 Mr. Zaric, aka Ziba. In any case, I stand fully by my previous

19 statement.

20 Q. Perhaps you might know this: Was there a detention unit in the

21 SUP building? Were there such facilities in the SUP building?

22 A. I was detained temporarily in the SUP building, only in an office

23 on the first floor. I don't know whether there was something in the

24 basement of the building. That building was not completed at that time.

25 I still don't think it was.

Page 591

1 Under the existing regulation of Yugoslavia, one such building

2 needed to have a nuclear shelter, and that was supposed to be done.

3 Unfortunately, it never was.

4 Q. In any case, you will agree with me that in Kotor Varos there was

5 no official prison, no detention -- court detention unit or anything of

6 that nature?

7 A. The room in which I spent over a year in was precisely for that

8 purpose, but I must say that -- as I have said already, that it was

9 adapted to that purpose. Perhaps it had a different purpose prior to

10 that.

11 Q. I fully understand, but my question was simple. Before 1992,

12 there was no court detention facility in Kotor Varos?

13 A. Definitely not.

14 Q. If you had been in a situation to be the commander or head of a

15 unit arresting Serbs, where would you have placed those people? Isn't it

16 logical that in the absence of a prison you use other facilities? Is

17 what I'm saying logical?

18 A. I am more than happy that I was never in a situation to have to

19 arrest anyone. I never even thought about such issues, not even today.

20 Q. But I'm just asking you this: If there is no official prison,

21 there's no room, so why not come up with another facility such as a TO

22 building, school buildings, factory buildings? This is what I'm asking

23 you. Does this make sense what I'm asking?

24 A. Your Honours, Defence Counsel, I understand fully, but, to me,

25 most of the things which took place at that time in that area were

Page 592

1 illogical. Do not ask me what I would have done had some been arrested.

2 I can only thank God that I was never put in such a position to arrest

3 anyone. I don't know what would have been. I simply was not in such a

4 situation, and that would be my final answer.

5 Q. I fully understand, Witness, but my question was directed at you

6 as a technical person, an engineer who would presumably understand the

7 conditions, but let's move on to another topic.

8 Tell me this, would you agree with me that the following facts

9 emerged from your today's testimony: One, you are a well-trained

10 military officer with more than an average knowledge about weapons and

11 explosives. Yes or no?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Second fact: Much before the 11th of June, 1992, with a great

14 number of your compatriots and Croatian neighbours, you planned an armed

15 conflict with the Serbs in the municipality covered by Kotor Varos. Yes

16 or no?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Because of such circumstances, you were arrested, brought in.

19 You provided statements to the police, and a pre-trial proceedings were

20 instituted against you. Yes or no?

21 A. I fail to understand the question.

22 Q. It's a simple question, really. You were arrested. You gave

23 statements to the police because there was suspicion that you took part

24 in the organised resistance against the Serb population in Kotor Varos.

25 Yes or no?

Page 593

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If you had not been arrested and if you had been in

3 Commander Sadikovic's unit, would you have killed Serbs as a member of

4 that unit?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Would you have carried out sabotage incidents such as planting

7 explosive -- explosives which may have resulted in civilian casualties?

8 Yes or no?

9 A. No.

10 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry to interrupt. This is not my witness, but

11 I had requested from your legal officers if I could have five minutes at

12 the end of the day to raise procedural matters concerning the next two

13 witnesses coming that I think we need resolved. He's already gone over

14 his time limit. I would ask if we could intervene.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Three minutes, Your Honours, not more.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, which forces killed hundreds upon

17 hundreds of Serbs in Kotor Varos Municipality? Do you know?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. Who roasted living Serbs in Kotor Varos Municipality? Do you

20 know that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who burned and levelled the Serb villages in the territory of

23 Kotor Varos Municipality? Do you know?

24 A. I don't.

25 MR. PANTELIC: No further questions for this witness. Thank you.

Page 594

1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

2 Re-examination?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I know that the issue that

4 my colleague Mr. Hannis wants to raise with you is of the utmost

5 importance to the Prosecution. Could -- could I respectfully ask you to

6 deal with that before I proceed to any re-examination? It may be that --

7 it may be that there won't be any need for re-examination, but I would

8 ask that you allow Mr. Hannis the time to address you on that. It's a

9 matter of crucial importance.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. Two matters. One regards

11 Witness ST-56 --

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Is it in relation to this witness?

13 MR. HANNIS: No, not this witness.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: In that case I suggest we take it the other way

15 around. I understood from your colleagues that your input now was in

16 relation to this witness.

17 MR. HANNIS: No.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: In that case if Your Honours please, I have no

19 re-examination.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

23 Mr. Witness, I have just one issue that I would like to raise

24 with you. Because right in the beginning of your testimony today you

25 mentioned that you were on your way down to the river and that you

Page 596

1 It's page 78, 23. I believe the witness said he used "to be" a manager

2 in a local company, not "to have."

3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So the witness may now be released.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you for your attendance and your assistance to

6 the Tribunal, and you may now be released. Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. The first matter deals

10 with the next witness that we intend to call, who is ST-56. There was a

11 request for protective measures. In your decision, you indicated that

12 this witness would be given a pseudonym and that you found that it was

13 appropriate to have facial and voice distortion. But in the order, you

14 only ordered facial distortion. So we -- we needed to clarify whether or

15 not she was going to be permitted to have voice distortion as well,

16 because, as you know, it takes additional time to set that up

17 technically.

18 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

19 MR. HANNIS: And she is requesting voice distortion.

20 JUDGE HALL: She is.

21 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

22 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So the decision of the Chamber in that regard

23 is that she be afforded both facial and voice distortion.

24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 The second matter relates to the third witness to come, who is

Page 597

1 ST-27, and there are two matters. Ms. Korner, I think, sent an e-mail

2 request to Ms. Featherstone yesterday or the day before concerning

3 changing the mode of testimony for him. He was originally proposed as a

4 viva voce witness. Upon further review of his transcript and other

5 matters, she proposed to change his mode of testimony to 92 ter, and it

6 would help in our planning and scheduling if we can know the

7 Trial Chamber's position on that. And related to that there's the issue

8 of protective measures for him. He had recently had protective measures

9 in the Brdjanin case. It's my understanding that the jurisprudence here

10 in the Trial Chamber that those protective measures remain in place to

11 future cases absent a specific finding.

12 He is also a witness in another case for which he has not

13 requested protective measures, and those have been removed for that case.

14 It's our position, however, absent a specific request to remove the

15 original protective measures from the Brdjanin case for this witness,

16 they remain in effect for this case, and we would request that be the

17 situation. He has indicated to us that he does want those previous

18 protective measures in this case. And we think there is precedent here

19 where witnesses have had protective measures in one case and not in

20 another because their specific security -- their specific security

21 concerns pertain often times to the individual accused, the present

22 location of the witness, the present location of friends and fans of the

23 accused in that case, etc. And we think under the circumstances that

24 absent a specific finding by you or the previous Trial Chambers that

25 those protective measures should remain in effect for ST-27 in this case.

Page 598

1 Thank you.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, first about the protective measures,

3 we -- we stated in our joint reply our position. We think that it's --

4 that it lacks any rationale, that the same witness has the protective

5 measures in one case, and in the other case he says, "I don't need the

6 protective measures."

7 I really don't think that the Prosecution and the witness should

8 be accommodated in that respect. That's the essence of our submission,

9 which is already filed.

10 The second thing, Your Honour, we believe the -- the changing of

11 the witness on such a short notice from viva voce to 92 ter creates --

12 creates a huge prejudice to the Defence. Basically according to the

13 rules which Your Honours -- instructions which Your Honours gave to us,

14 the viva voce witnesses would come, would testify, and his testimony and

15 the exhibits that are -- that he -- that are tendered through him becomes

16 a part of the record. Now we are preparing our cross-examination on the

17 basis of that.

18 Now in 24 hours before we are notified that the OTP wants to

19 change it to 92 ter, which means that his previous transcripts, previous

20 exhibits in other cases, and all that is coming in. We're simply not

21 prepared, and we can't be prepared for that. And I don't think that this

22 is the proper way to -- I mean, this is a short -- I know it is up to the

23 party to choose which way will they present their evidence and their

24 witnesses, but this such a short notice really creates a prejudice for

25 the Defence, and we will not be able to cross-examine the witness based

Page 599

1 on the case that he's a 92 ter witness.

2 Thank you, Your Honours. That's all I had.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Mr. President. Just for the record that

4 Zupljanin Defence fully support the submission of Mr. Zecevic, and in

5 addition to that, please, we kindly beg you to exercise your authority

6 over the OTP in this absolutely unsustainable practice, because this is a

7 serious violation of the rights of the accused. Twenty-four hours before

8 the witness coming changing of the mode of testimony, simply unbearable.

9 Thank you so much, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis, you had something to add in response to

13 Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Pantelic's objection?

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, if I may. Just for

15 clarity of the record, it's not 24 hours before the witness is coming

16 that the notice was given. Ms. Korner e-mailed the parties and

17 legal officer at 2.41 yesterday afternoon. So even if he were to come on

18 sometime tomorrow, it would be more like 44 hours. However, we have two

19 other witnesses before him scheduled now. Given the rate at which we

20 proceeded on the witness today, it may be that he won't come on until the

21 day after tomorrow. And I think allowing the Prosecution to make this

22 change does serve -- warrant interest of the Trial Chamber to have the

23 Prosecution's case to conclude sooner because it will take less time with

24 the 92 ter than with the viva voce witness thank you.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, the Trial Chamber certainly appreciates any

Page 600

1 method adopted by counsel to shorten the actual court time involved in

2 these matters. But in this case we take Defence counsel at their word,

3 that they are prejudiced by the change of method proposed by the

4 Prosecution. So what we would respectfully suggest to the -- to the

5 Prosecution is that in -- in future cases when such a change is proposed

6 that a longer period of notice be given to the other side. But as I

7 said, the Chamber's appreciative of the attempts to shorten the actual

8 court time devoted to this. So in this case we -- the motion is -- the

9 application is refused.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 And on Ms. Korner's behalf, may I inquire if this witness were to

12 be rescheduled at a later date, might the Chamber's ruling be different?

13 If he were to come first thing next week.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks, Mr. Hannis. As the Presiding Judge has

16 just said, the Chamber really wishes to encourage both parties to find

17 ways to shorten the trial time. And so changing the status of a witness

18 from viva voce to 92 ter is something that the Chamber is very happy to

19 see, and we will accommodate that wherever possible.

20 Now, in this case we just think that the notice was too short.

21 If, as you suggest you want to put off ST-27 to a later date and

22 then re-introduce him as a 65 -- as a 92 ter witness, that's fine, but

23 again we wouldn't gain any time because we would then lose the time that

24 we have for him now.

25 I am not aware of any witnesses that you have brought for Friday;

Page 601

1 is that correct? Oh, do you have witnesses for Friday?

2 MS. PIDWELL: Perhaps I can be of assistance. The -- this

3 witness is scheduled to testify late tomorrow, if we get to him, and

4 Friday.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: And he's the only witness to testify Friday?

6 MS. PIDWELL: Yes. Depending on the length of time the first two

7 witnesses take tomorrow will depend whether we reach him or not tomorrow,

8 but he is the own scheduled -- he is the only one for the rest of the

9 week.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: But ahead of him we have -- yes, we have two

11 other witnesses.

12 MS. PIDWELL: There are two other witnesses ahead of him. And we

13 had an indication from the Defence as to how long they will take to

14 cross-examine the first witness informally today, but we don't have yet

15 an indication of how long they would take to cross-examine the second

16 witness.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I was just coming to that.

18 I think we will proceed as scheduled, namely to hear to -- now

19 he's here to hear him now, but hear him viva voce. The Prosecution, if I

20 recall well, has three hours. If you wish to shave some time off that,

21 you can do it. But I think in the end, it's the most practical thing to

22 keep him here and have him testify this time as viva voce.

23 I was just about to ask the Defence teams if they could be good

24 enough to indicate to us the time that they would wish to have for their

25 cross-examination of the next witnesses.

Page 602

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we indicated to our colleagues, as

2 far as the Stanisic Defence is concerned, that we intend to cross-examine

3 the next two witnesses at 15 minutes each at the most. And the rest of

4 the time, which I -- which according to my calculation is one hour and

5 20 minutes for the -- for the ST-27.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: One hour and 20 minutes?

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, for ST-27. I think. I mean, depending how

8 long we will take between these two coming witnesses, because we said,

9 Your Honour, two hours altogether for four witnesses. That's roughly.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krkovic.

11 MR. Krkovic: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the next witness

12 we planned some 20 minutes. For ST-27, we plan to use the rest of our

13 hour and a half. So an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and ten minutes as

14 needed.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you to both of you.

17 Hold on one minute, please.

18 [Trial Chamber and senior legal officer confer]

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krkovic, can I just clarify with you that you

20 would wish to use 20 minutes for the next two witnesses? Is that

21 correct?

22 MR. Krkovic: Yes, Your Honour. You're right.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. With a bit of luck, it looks in my

24 schedule as if we should be able to finish of VS -- ST, sorry, ST-27 by

25 the end of Friday. So I think that's the best way to proceed.