Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 880

 1                           Tuesday, 6 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T.

 7     The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon, everyone.  May I have the

 9     appearances for today, please.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'm Tom Hannis.  On behalf of the

11     Office of the Prosecutor, Gramsci Di Fazio, Belinda Pidwell, and our case

12     manager, Jasmina Bosnjakovic.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [No interpretation]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

17             Good afternoon, Your Honours, I'm Slobodan Cvijetic, and I'm in

18     the role of co-counsel in the Mico Stanisic case.  Sitting next to me is

19     our legal consultant, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, and Tatjana Savic.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For

21     Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, Brent Hicks, and

22     Eric Tully.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  [Microphone not activated] we have the

24     witness returned to the Chamber.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 881

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon, sir.  I would remind you that you

 3     are still under oath.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic.

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                           WITNESS:  MIRZET KARABEG [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:  [Continued]

10        Q.   Good afternoon.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   We are going to continue today where we left off.

13             MR. PANTELIC:  May I call Exhibit 1D10, please.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Before the exhibit comes on the screen,

15     yesterday in response to a question by my learned friend, Mr. Cvijetic,

16     you commented a decision adopted by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17     on the 13th of March, 1993, and the decision referred to the forming of

18     War Presidencies; isn't that right?  Do you recollect that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you just briefly tell us the scope of work of the

21     Wartime Presidencies also encompassed the cooperation and coordination of

22     military units with police forces; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, this was in the -- the General Secretariat for National

24     Defence was part of these Wartime Presidencies.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak up.

Page 882

 1             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   According to what you know, in the territory of the municipality

 3     of Sanski Most, how would you describe in early 1992 after the

 4     declaration was passed on the declaration of -- on the independence of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you said that you cooperated closely, meaning the

 6     SDA, with the HDZ?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did this also include certain coordination of your defence

 9     activities relating to the armed units that operated in that area?  I'm

10     thinking of the patriotic league as the beginning of the

11     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the HVO as the starting point for the

12     formation of the Croatian forces?

13        A.   Well, let me tell you, we didn't have any coordination

14     activities.  If we had had them, what happened would not have happened.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Excuse me, may I call the -- well, that's exhibit,

16     but it is on the OTP list; 65 ter number is 2422.

17             That's P60.13, I think.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you.  Thank you, my friend.

19        Q.   Mr. Karabeg, yesterday you commented this document.  Let's just

20     remind ourselves.  In 1991 you were the president of the

21     Municipal Assembly of the Municipality of Sanski Most; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, from the 1st of January, 1991.

23        Q.   Here on the left side of the screen in front of you it states

24     that there was an extraordinary meeting of the Executive Board that was

25     held on the 28th of December, 1991.  As you can see, there were some

Page 883

 1     items on the agenda, amongst them the proposal for measures for the

 2     Assembly submitted by the SDA branch.  You'll recall that meeting, you

 3     were the president of the Executive Board, weren't you?

 4        A.   Well, I should be able to remember each meeting of the

 5     Executive Board, but I actually am unable to read the print.  Can the

 6     letters be made bigger, please?

 7        Q.   Just to remind you, for example, at the time let's say that the

 8     position of the branch was to ask the MUP to review the work of the

 9     public security station item 2 to send a request to the B&H MUP about

10     some personnel quotas; item 3 was some meeting of the council for

11     national defence, do you remember all these points?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Can you look at item 5, please, on the same page.  Now, you can

14     see it, and it states that the SDA, amongst other things, proposed that a

15     request be sent to the MUP to send a specialised units to Sanski Most.

16     Do you remember this request by the SDA for some special unit to be sent

17     there?

18        A.   No, I don't remember whose handwriting you have here.

19        Q.   I'm going to refresh your memory a little bit.  These are notes

20     from the -- about the SDA, I assume, due to inter-ethnic tensions to call

21     in a special unit from Sarajevo from the Republican MUP.  This was in

22     1991, probably that was the sense of it.

23        A.   Well, let me tell you, there was no tension at that time.  There

24     was absolute cooperation between the SDA, the HDZ, and the SDS.  Between

25     myself and the vice-presidents and the presidents of the Assembly.

Page 884

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the names.

 2             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, I believe the interpreters didn't

 3     catch the names.  The witness's answer wasn't recorded.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, could you repeat your last answer

 5     please for the benefit of the interpreters.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no tensions at the time.

 7     Amongst us there was excellent cooperation between the SDA, the HDZ, and

 8     the SDS; between myself as the president of the Executive Board,

 9     Nedeljka Rasula as the president of the Assembly of the Sanski Most

10     Assembly, and Ante Dunjic who was the vice-president of the Sanski Most

11     Assembly.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Very well.  Can you please tell me when the SDA formed the

14     Crisis Staff in Sanski Most?

15        A.   The SDA never formed a Crisis Staff in Sanski Most.  We had a

16     Crisis Staff at the level of the Sanski Most municipality, and it was a

17     body of the Assembly.

18        Q.   And when was this body formed, this Crisis Staff?

19        A.   The body was one of the forms of implementation of the election

20     or of the will of the electorate.  The president of the Crisis Staff, the

21     president of the Assembly, the head of the Crisis Staff, the head of the

22     police, the head of the civilian protection -- no, not civilian

23     protection, but that segment, all these people were picked to specific

24     posts.

25             I am sorry, I'm thinking of the Territorial Defence, not the

Page 885

 1     civilian protection, but ...

 2        Q.   And did the SDA have a Crisis Staff together with the HDZ in

 3     Sanski Most?

 4        A.   No, I've just said that that was a body representing the

 5     municipality of Sanski Most where people were appointed according to

 6     their functions.  I was the president of the Executive Board of the

 7     Assembly, Nedeljko Rasula as the president of the Assembly, the head of

 8     the National Defence Secretariat, the head of the Territorial Defence,

 9     and the head of the then police force.

10        Q.   Very well.  Can you please tell me, do you know of a person by

11     the name Suad Sabic, do you know him?  [In English] I apologise.

12     [Interpretation] Do you know Suad Sabic?

13        A.   I'm telling you for the third time that I do know him.

14        Q.   And what was his position in the Sanski Most municipality?

15        A.   I think that at the time he was the municipal prosecutor.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Can we go, please, to page 24 of this same

17     document that we have in front of -- English translation page 24.  It's

18     ERN number 0110-4351.  And B/C/S page ERN number is 0037-9448.  The other

19     part of B/C/S, please.  Yeah, that one.  Okay.  If you can zoom up a

20     little bit.  Okay.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see there that it says that Suad Sabic

22     was the commander of the Crisis Staff?  Are you aware of that fact?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that the SDA had three command posts:

25     one was at the fire station, the other at the Vuk Karadzic elementary

Page 886

 1     school, and the third one in Zdana Pobrijezje; did you know about that?

 2        A.   This is what you say.  I didn't know that.

 3        Q.   Did you know Mr. Ivan Filipovic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What was his ethnicity?

 6        A.   He was a Croat.

 7        Q.   Did he have any kind of position in the Sanski Most HDZ?

 8        A.   I don't know if he had any function, but he was the

 9     vice-president of the Executive Board.  He was my deputy.  I'm just going

10     to comment, if you permit me.  There was no Crisis Staff.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Could we have please another page, B/C/S version

12     0037-9449.  And the English version is -- well, it splits.  It's

13     0110-4351, but due to the translation, it's two B/C/S pages on one page

14     of English version.  Yeah.  Okay.  Good.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Karabeg, do you know that there were two

16     detachments and two companies in Sana of Muslim units?

17        A.   Well, let me tell you, it's possible there was something in

18     Vrpolje, this is possible.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please now look at page 2 here on the

20     right-hand side, and can you see what it says there?  There were

21     four platoons, eight companies, and seven detachments with a total of

22     1.860 members.  Did you know about this, that this was the way the Muslim

23     forces were organised in Sanski Most?

24        A.   Well, let me look at that.  Is it here at the bottom where it

25     says 1.860?

Page 887

 1        Q.   Yes, that's right, but let me help you a little bit here.  The

 2     names are Caplje, Vrpolje, Hrustovo, Stara Rijeka, Majdan, Cirkici,

 3     Vakuf, Fitovce [phoen], and so on and so forth.  So we can see that there

 4     are about 20 settlements here and totalling 1.860.  Did you ever talk

 5     about brave soldiers and officers of the patriotic league after the war

 6     and how they were organised?

 7        A.   Let me tell you, there were some at Hrustovo, but the rest of it

 8     you don't need to add, you shouldn't add it.  I wish that it were so.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Pantelic, I have lost track of what the

10     identity of this document is.  Could you please help me.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes.  It's a diary, I believe, of -- seized in

12     Serbia Crisis Staff, but maybe Mr. Di Fazio can give us more light.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  It's said to be - by the Prosecution, if

14     Your Honours please - a diary kept and maintained by a gentleman named

15     Nedeljko Rasula who was a functionary in the SDS in Sanski Most.  I can't

16     tell you now off the top of my head where or when it was seized by

17     members of the OTP, but that's the basic position of the Prosecution on

18     this document.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A correction, please, it wasn't

20     Andjelko, but Nedeljko Rasula.

21             MR. PANTELIC:  Does that satisfy your inquiry, Your Honour?

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, but I understand that no questions are being

23     raised as to the authenticity of this document by the Defence.

24             MR. PANTELIC:  We are in process of checking all these

25     circumstances about this document, but I believe that the same document

Page 888

 1     was discussed in Brdjanin trial.

 2             MR. DI FAZIO:  It was.  It was a controversial document in that

 3     case, and there was evidence called, I believe, concerning the

 4     authenticity of that document.  But there will be further evidence

 5     brought by the Prosecution in this case dealing with that very issue of

 6     the authenticity of that document.  You will hear more about it.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I can't wait.  Thanks.

 8             MR. PANTELIC:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Karabeg, after your incarceration, you gave

10     a statement to the AID office which is the secret police of the Muslim

11     Croat Federation in Travnik; do you recall that?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   In that statement, you described certain events.  The full name

14     of the service was the Centre of Security Services Banja Luka with the

15     seat in Travnik, is that so?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Please explain to me why did the Muslim side establish a parallel

18     centre of security services under the name of Banja Luka that was seated

19     in Travnik?

20        A.   Well, you either do not wish or cannot understand.  By virtue of

21     the referendum, we decided to declare independence in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22     Of course, we were ready to accept all legal bodies, and naturally, the

23     centre of public security was supposed to be in Banja Luka with a

24     temporary seat in Travnik.  Had it -- had we been able to establish it in

25     Banja Luka, we would not have opted for Travnik as a temporary seat.

Page 889

 1        Q.   Mr. Karabeg, did you know that in 1992 until 1995, and even to

 2     the present and the centre of security services in Banja Luka, there were

 3     Muslim active-duty policemen as well as Croatian active-duty policemen in

 4     senior positions, are you familiar with that?  Just tell me whether you

 5     are familiar with that or not.

 6        A.   Yes, certainly.  Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  How is it possible, then, that such professional

 8     active-duty policemen in senior positions remained working for the CSB in

 9     Banja Luka during the war, whereas another group formed a parallel CSB

10     with a seat in Travnik?  How is that possible?  How come not all Croatian

11     and Muslim active-duty officers left Banja Luka and went to Travnik?

12        A.   You shouldn't ask me that.  There may have been a minority which

13     had to stay behind, be it because their families were threatened or for

14     any other reason.  This was a minority.  You were killing, slaughtering,

15     raping, and now you are asking me why.  I certainly did not go from

16     Sanski Most to Manjaca of my own accord.  I was arrested, detained,

17     maltreated, beaten, and taken to Manjaca.  I didn't go there by myself.

18     And we were not a minority.  There were a lot of non-Serbs, Croats, and

19     Muslims.

20        Q.   Were there any Serb victims in the territory of Sanski Most

21     municipality in the Serb villages there?  Were there any Serbs who were

22     killed in your knowledge, yes or no?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Were any Serb villages that were destroyed in Sanski Most

25     municipality?

Page 890

 1        A.   No, and I have in mind 1992.

 2        Q.   Sorry, I fail to understand.

 3        A.   Are we talking about 1992, or are we covering the whole period

 4     between 1992 and 1995?

 5        Q.   Between 1992 and 1995.

 6        A.   Yes.  When Sanski Most was being liberated -- well, they didn't

 7     wish to hand it over, so it had to be liberated.  And it was only normal

 8     that there was combat.

 9        Q.   And there were Serb civilian casualties, yes?

10        A.   Well, as I say, in the course of the liberation of Sanski Most,

11     what about 1992 to the 10th of October, 1995?  This is the story that you

12     should be asking me about.  Sanski Most was liberated on the

13     10th of October, 1995, and certainly there were victims.

14        Q.   To round off this cross-examination, I wanted to ask you this.  I

15     will put to you the following facts:  Mr. Karabeg, I tell you that you

16     personally were a senior member of the SDA in Sanski Most?

17        A.   I never denied that.  Yes, I was.  And to add, I was in the inner

18     circle of those who founded the party.

19        Q.   Together with your colleagues from the HDZ and the municipal

20     Assembly of Sanski Most during 1991, and until you were arrested, formed

21     your armed formations, yes or no?

22        A.   This is what you say.  This is what you say.

23        Q.   I'm asking you.

24        A.   This is what you are saying.  And based on what was shown to me

25     where this person wrote, Bring in Mirzet Karabeg so that he disappears

Page 891

 1     from the face of the earth.

 2             We all know what that means, dead.  Bring him in dead.

 3        Q.   Please.  Yes or no so that I can move on.

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   I put to you that members of the patriotic league, which was an

 6     armed formation of the SDA, and members of the HVO, which was the armed

 7     fraction of the HDZ in Sanski Most, were organised in the military sense

 8     in the late 1991 and in the first half of 1992, yes or no?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   I put to you that the Muslim Croat military formations in

11     Sanski Most carried out armed attacks against regular units of the

12     Army of Republika Srpska, and in the course of such attacks Serb

13     civilians and Serb property was damaged?

14        A.   I do not agree.  Your Honours, please do not allow him to

15     maltreat me.

16             JUDGE HALL:  I don't know where you are going with this, but may

17     I remind you that tu quoque is not a legitimate Defence in this case.

18     You may be perfectly right that crimes were committed on both sides, but

19     that is not the issue in this trial.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, I'm absolutely aware that tu quoque

21     is not the principle only in limited situations, but my line of questions

22     were simply to establish, because we shall have proofs along these lines,

23     that all three parties in Sanski Most at the end of 1992 -- and the

24     beginning of 1991 and the beginning of year 1992 were organising

25     themselves politically, military, and on the security basis.

Page 892

 1             We shall show that this witness was not telling us the truth

 2     regarding the military formation of Muslim and Croat forces in

 3     Sanski Most, and all other actions they actually forwarded in this

 4     period, which was the reason for certain military reaction of military

 5     unit which was on that territory.  That's the point of all my questions.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But that seems to at least to me to lead straight

 7     back to the tu quoque argument.  If I understand you correctly, what you

 8     are saying is that if crimes were committed by the Serb forces and the

 9     Serb police forces, then they were committed in response or in

10     retaliation for attacks that were originally provided by the other side.

11     Now, that may be correct or may not be correct, but that is completely

12     beyond the point.

13             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, I agree with you, Your Honour.  If that would

14     be the case, that the Defence theory would be based on the retaliation,

15     but it is not the case.  Defence case is completely opposite.  We shall

16     show that not only in this municipality but in the other municipality,

17     which was covered by the indictment, there were regular Muslim Croat

18     forces preparing the attacks on Serbian members of the community and that

19     in certain occasions, certain pre-emptive operations were conducted fully

20     in accordance with a -- military regulations and military law.  That will

21     be shown.

22             So I'm not -- it's not my intention, Your Honour, to create this

23     kind of sort of balance between the victims and actions.  No, not at all.

24     My line of questions put to this witness was simply to have and to hear

25     his personal knowledge of the effects.

Page 893

 1             Because what was this witness testifying?  That nobody was armed

 2     in Sanski Most, only Serbs, they committed -- they started campaign of

 3     terror, Muslims were, you know, like, in some kind of peace atmosphere

 4     with Croats, they are defending their citizens.  So that was the line of

 5     questions just to maybe try to attack on the credibility of this witness

 6     with that area.  Because his testimony -- this part of his testimony is

 7     absolutely non-objective.  It is not related to the facts which were

 8     actually occurred in the municipality of Sanski Most.

 9             But in any case, Your Honour, I finish my cross-examination.

10     Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Is there re-examination, Mr. Di Fazio.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  There is just a couple of matters that I want to

13     raise with this witness.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

15        Q.   Firstly, just a question of names.  Early in your evidence,

16     answering questions from Mr. Pantelic, you spoke about the president of

17     the executive, and I'm not sure if it came across correctly in the

18     transcript.  There was a -- it came across as Nedeljka Rasa, could you

19     give us that full name clearly again, please.

20        A.   Nedeljko Rasula.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Rasula.  Now, can you tell His Honours, the

22     Trial Chamber, who exactly that person was, what position they held in

23     Sanski Most?

24        A.   Nedeljko Rasula was the SDS president, and by virtue of that

25     position, he was elected the president of Sanski Most municipality.  When

Page 894

 1     I assumed my position on the 1st of January, 1991, he took up the same

 2     position as the president of municipality on the same date.

 3        Q.   Thanks for clarifying that.  Another issue that was raised with

 4     you by Mr. Pantelic was this:  You were asked whether there were Croat or

 5     Muslim active-duty policemen in Sanski Most in -- between 1992 and 1995.

 6     You agreed with that proposition.  I just want to know what you were

 7     doing, and to give the Trial Chamber an idea of where you were in that

 8     period of time.

 9             Now, just listen to whey say and tell me if you agree with this.

10     You testified in -- you were arrested on the 25th of May and that you

11     were transferred to Betonirka, the Betonirka garages on the 9th of May --

12     I think, the 9th of June; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   During that time, did you receive any information as to the

15     numbers of Croat or Muslim police officers continuing to operate in

16     Sanski Most?  Was anyone giving you that information while you were in

17     prison?

18        A.   No, if I may --

19        Q.   No, just listen to my question, please.

20        A.   No, no.

21        Q.   Thanks.  Following Betonirka you transferred back to the police

22     station for a short period of time and then on to Manjaca and you were

23     finally exchanged there on the 31st of October - listen to the

24     question - finally exchanged there on the 31st of October, 1992.  Now, in

25     that period of time, was anyone feeding you or giving you information

Page 895

 1     about the number of Croat or Muslim police officers continuing to carry

 2     out their duties in Sanski Most?  Did anyone tell you about that, the

 3     figures, the numbers?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Now, after that you were exchanged, I believe, and taken to

 6     somewhere in Croatia; correct?

 7        A.   No, I was exchanged in Travnik.

 8        Q.   Thanks.  Thanks for clarifying that, my apologies.  Okay.  And

 9     you also mentioned today that Sanski Most was liberated on the

10     10th of October, 1995.

11             Now, between the date of your exchange and the 10th of October,

12     1995, did you go back to Sanski Most?

13        A.   No way.

14        Q.   Okay.  So how do you have any information about the --

15        A.   There was no way for me to go there.

16        Q.   Fine, fine.  I understand you, and thanks.  But how do you have

17     any information about the numbers of Croat or Muslim police officers

18     continuing to operate to carry out their duties in Sanski Most if you

19     weren't there?

20        A.   Well, I had no such information.  But the question that was put

21     to me was what the situation was then and now.  When I asked about the

22     period, I had in mind 1992.  And counsel covered 1992 to 1995.  I can

23     tell you that even now there are some such policemen, but at that time no

24     one could remain to work in Sanski Most in any government body,

25     especially not in the police.  He was leading me around.

Page 896

 1             I was hoping that Their Honours would curb that tendency to try

 2     to reduce the period, but he simply used the period between 1992 and

 3     1995, speaking of whether there were murders, victims, or anything.  He

 4     spans that across the three or four years.  In 1992, no one had a rifle

 5     and was unable to do anything save for the incident in Vrpolje.  And then

 6     he goes up to 1995.  Of course Sanski Most was being liberated and there

 7     were victims.

 8        Q.   Thanks very much for that.  I think you've clarified.  And I have

 9     no further questions.  Thank you very much.

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  No further questions, if Your Honours please.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

12             By the Chamber?

13             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, on the instruction of my client, I

14     would address this witness.  [Interpretation] Witness, my client

15     Stojan Zupljanin wishes to personally apologise to you for everything you

16     have suffered concerning the events you described in your testimony.

17     This would be it.

18             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, just as a general manner.  I

19     don't think this is an appropriate way to deal with the situation.

20     That's a matter that can be addressed at the time of sentencing, if there

21     is judgement against the accused, but I don't think it's appropriate at

22     this stage.

23             MR. PANTELIC:  If I may address the Chamber with the -- in

24     connection with the submission of my learned friend.  Your Honour, my

25     duty is to get all instructions of my client, and this trial here is a

Page 897

 1     criminal trial, and it is a perfectly appropriate time, hearing all

 2     testimonies of witnesses and all troubles for the past, that reaction --

 3     human reaction of a person who is indictment, not convicted, is

 4     appropriate.

 5             And I would outline my submission in regard to the other cases

 6     and the situations within this Tribunal where this human aspect was

 7     absolutely allowed and nothing to do with the facts and the final

 8     judgement, it's a simply human reaction of a person who is sitting in his

 9     capacity of an indicted man.  That's all that I have to say on this

10     submission.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

12             Mr. Hannis, we've noted your objection.  Sorry, not objection,

13     your comment; and it's something that the Chamber will consider, and if

14     necessary, formally speak to at the appropriate stage.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Sir, we thank you for your assistance -- for your

17     coming to assist the Tribunal in your testimony.  You are now released as

18     a witness.  And we wish you a safe journey back home.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Is the Prosecution ready for its next witness?

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, may it please, Your Honours, the next witness

23     is Dr. Enis Sabanovic, ST-73, he is a 92 ter witness in accordance with

24     Your Honours' rulings on Friday the 7th of October.  He has no protective

25     measures.  I anticipate approximately half an hour to 40 minutes with him

Page 898

 1     in chief.  There are a couple of videos which may take five or ten

 2     minutes at the end of his testimony.  And at this stage, I'd ask perhaps

 3     Mr. Di Fazio could be excused for the afternoon.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Pidwell, please proceed.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, the Prosecution calls ST-73, Dr. Sabanovic.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  ENIS SABANOVIC

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon, sir.  And we thank you for coming to

12     attend to assist the Tribunal in its work.  What is your name, please?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Enis Sabanovic.

14             JUDGE HALL:  And your date of birth?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1940.

16             JUDGE HALL:  And your profession?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Doctor.

18             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity, sir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Muslim, a Bosnian.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             Thank you, Ms. Pidwell.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, sir.

23                           Examination by Ms. Pidwell:

24        Q.   Sir, perhaps you could repeat your date of birth for the record.

25        A.   24th of June, 1940.

Page 899

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, you were born in the municipality of

 2     Sanski Most; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you practiced medicine there until your arrest in 1992?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   And just prior to your arrest, you were the head of the internal

 7     medicine department at the health centre in Sanski Most; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes, it's correct.

 9        Q.   And you continue to practice medicine in Sanski Most today?

10        A.   Yes, I do.  I'm still working, involved in medicine.

11        Q.   And what ethnicity is your wife?

12        A.   She is a Serb.

13        Q.   And prior to your arrest in 1992, you were a member of the

14     Executive Board of the SDA party in Sanski Most; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recall giving evidence before this Tribunal in the

17     case against Brdjanin for three days on the 3rd, 4th, and

18     5th of June, 2002?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And over the past three days, have you had the opportunity to

21     listen to the audiotapes of your testimony in that case?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And if you were examined on those topics again and asked the same

24     questions again, would your answers today be the same?

25        A.   Yes, they would.

Page 900

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender the testimony of

 2     this witness in the Brdjanin trial which is 65 ter number 10013.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P61, Your Honours.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  There is also a proofing note dated the

 6     5th of October, which is 65 ter 10013A which would be admitted as well.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P62, Your Honours.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:

 9        Q.   There were some documents, sir, that you talked about in your

10     testimony in the prior case which now have to be formally admitted into

11     evidence.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  There are three documents, Your Honours.

13     65 ter 00365, which I ask be tendered and admitted.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What are they, Ms. Pidwell?

15             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, these are simply documents that were

16     referred to in the 92 ter package which need to be formally tendered.  If

17     you would like me to bring them up on the screen and admit them then --

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You see, I've read the early testimony in

19     Brdjanin, and I recall a number of documents that were referred to.  So

20     I'm not sure which documents you now wish to seek to have admitted

21     through this witness, that's why I think we better be careful and see

22     what it is that you are asking us to admit.

23             MS. PIDWELL:  Certainly, sir.  And this may be an issue that

24     requires clarification.  Your Honours' ruling on the 2nd of October

25     stated that the prior evidence of the witnesses along with the

Page 901

 1     accompanying documents be admitted pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  The

 2     Prosecution has interpreted that as being the documents accompanying the

 3     92 ter package.  So those that were listed in the schedule.  And these

 4     are those documents that I'm tendering.

 5             There are, obviously, a number of other documents that this

 6     witness referred to in his prior testimony which the Prosecution does not

 7     wishing to tender simply because they are not of themselves pertinent to

 8     the Prosecution's case.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So, would you give us the 65 ter numbers.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Certainly.  The first document is 65 ter 365.  For

12     your information, Your Honours, it's an order from the 1st Krajina Corps

13     dated the 27th of July.  The next one is 65 ter 1275.  And the final

14     document is 65 ter 3424.  This is one of those documents that was not on

15     the 65 ter list before but has been captured by Your Honours' rulings

16     from Friday, hence it has a new 65 ter number.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Three documents are admitted as Exhibit P62 .1,

19     Exhibit P62.3 and Exhibit P62.2, Your Honours.

20             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, we don't have to deal with this

21     while the witness is here, we can get on with his testimony.  But at some

22     point very soon, I think we should discuss exactly what your order was on

23     the 2nd of October and the procedure we are going to use, which documents

24     are coming in through 92 ter and 92 bis and which ones are not.  Because

25     yesterday with Mr. Di Fazio, Judge Harhoff said to him well don't read

Page 902

 1     the exhibits to me because they get decimal numbers, and then they get

 2     admitted.

 3             Now it appears that not all of the accompanying exhibits are

 4     coming in.  So we need some clarification.  Some are on the 65 ter list,

 5     some are not, your guide-line says if it's not on the 65 ter list it does

 6     not come in unless there is a motion.

 7             There's also some ambiguity from our side of the room, and

 8     perhaps not on the Bench, but over here I'm telling you, on whether or

 9     not the full statement is coming in or only the portions that the

10     Prosecution highlighted to you.  There's --

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Why don't we -- excuse me for interrupting you.

12     I think we should get on with the witness's testimony, and we'll sort out

13     these matters an at an appropriate time when we have some time where we

14     can deal with these administrative issues.

15             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

17             MS. PIDWELL:

18        Q.   Sir, in April of 1992 when you were the chief of the medical

19     clinic in Sanski Most, you stopped working.  Can you explain, please,

20     why?

21        A.   Let me tell you, it started -- well, I'm going to be brief.  It

22     started from Bijeljina to Brcko then it reached Prijedor.  We never

23     thought that these atrocities would be committed or that this would be a

24     war between the three nations, between Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.  I was

25     working, and it would happened that one day the president of the SDS

Page 903

 1     would come to see me, that is the Serbian party of -- the

 2     Serbian Democratic Party, and then they would tell me that I should stop

 3     working, that I had no longer any right to come to work, that the -- a

 4     different chief or a director of the specialised services in Sanski Most

 5     was appointed now.

 6        Q.   Did anyone accompany the SDS leader, president, when he came to

 7     tell you this?

 8        A.   A policeman came.  This was told to me in the evening at about

 9     7.30 or 8.00, because a colleague, an internist, had summoned me.  We

10     were supposed to examine a patient together to see whether he should be

11     sent to the clinic in Banja Luka or not.  And the president of this party

12     came there.  And then when we finished with the patient, finally he said

13     that policemen were waiting for me and they were going to see me home.  I

14     said there is no reason for that.  I had my car.

15             And the policeman went with me.  One of them was in the car, the

16     other one came to the ward.  They followed me, came to my house.  One of

17     them went into the house, told me -- he told me to get into the house.

18     One of them stayed outside.  They came to the house.  They asked for all

19     my documents, my professional documents, and other documents.  And all of

20     them were instantly burned in the yard in front of the house.

21             I was arrested.  There were four of them.  Two were waiting and

22     two came later.  I was arrested.

23        Q.   Pause, please.  When you say "four of them," do you mean four

24     policemen?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 904

 1        Q.   And --

 2        A.   Four policemen.

 3        Q.   Could you please describe whether they were wearing uniforms, and

 4     if so, what kind of uniforms they were wearing?

 5        A.   I think that they were multicoloured uniform, mostly that's how

 6     it was at the time.  These were young men.  They brought me inside a jeep

 7     and then in a minute I was under their feet of the four of them, and that

 8     is how I reached the SUP in Sanski Most, in some ten minutes or so.

 9             They were stamping on me with their feet.

10        Q.   When you say "multicoloured uniforms," do you mean camouflage?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What colour was the camouflage?

13        A.   Same as the police wear now, blue.  Multicoloured blue.

14        Q.   Was your wife arrested at this time?

15        A.   No.  She was not arrested at all during the war.

16        Q.   Was she present when you were arrested, when you were taken to

17     your house and your documents were burned?

18        A.   Yes.  She was in the house and my children too.  But they were

19     not arresting Serbs at that time.

20        Q.   When you were taken to the SJB building, you said that you were

21     taken in a jeep.  Was this marked in any way?

22        A.   They had something -- it's hard now.  I mean, it was a registered

23     vehicle.  It was a registered police vehicle.

24        Q.   You've said that you were taken to the SJB building in

25     Sanski Most.  Just to clarify, were there any other SJB buildings in the

Page 905

 1     town of Sanski Most, other than the one that you were taken to?

 2        A.   No, not in the town of Sanski Most.  There was just a police

 3     branch in the Palanka local community.  But, I mean, there were only two

 4     or three policemen there.  This was before the war.  There were none in

 5     Sanski Most.

 6        Q.   You've said in your prior testimony that you were detained at

 7     this SJB building for a period of two days.  During this time, were you

 8     interrogated or interviewed?

 9        A.   When I came to the building, nobody asked me anything, no

10     questions were put to me.  I was tied and taken to the toilet which was

11     approximately 2 by 1 and a half or 2 by 2 metres, and this is where I was

12     held for a full two days without anyone coming round.  All I could do was

13     to beat my head against the concrete wall.  But I didn't do that.

14        Q.   Did you see any guards or policemen at this facility during that

15     time?

16        A.   I was outside very little outside of the toilet so that I

17     wouldn't be seen.

18        Q.   And when you finally came out of the toilet in the SJB building,

19     did you see any policemen or guards at that stage?

20        A.   Yes.  I saw them because I was taken to Betonirka.  These are

21     garages which were 100 to 150 metres from the police station.  They were

22     on a sort of hill.  And this is where I started to receive heavy blows to

23     the head, punches, and I was hit with other implements that were at hand.

24     So by that point my left eye was swollen.  My left eye was swollen for

25     more than two months.  Unfortunately, if I can add, I had surgery on that

Page 906

 1     eye last year in Zagreb by doctors from Ljubljana because of traumatic

 2     cataracts or a traumatic cataract which was diagnosed in Germany, but

 3     that's how it went on -- on anyway.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Sir.  When you were taken from the SJB building to

 5     Betonirka, can you describe the guards or the police who took you there?

 6     What were they wearing?

 7        A.   To tell you the truth -- well, it's the kind of question that all

 8     I can really say that their uniforms were generally multicoloured

 9     uniforms.  But I really wasn't able to -- I didn't have time to pay

10     attention to that.  I didn't even have time to say anything.  I had no

11     opportunity to talk or to see what people looked like.  This was horrible

12     torture that I was suffering.

13        Q.   Once again, when you say multicoloured, are you referring to the

14     blue camouflage uniforms or something else?

15        A.   That's right.  Multicoloured uniforms, blue.

16        Q.   You were also taken to a place called -- a gym or a sports haul

17     called Hasan Kikic.  How far was this from the police station, the SJB

18     building, in Sanski Most?

19        A.   It's some 300 to 400 metres away approximately, but before I was

20     brought to Betonirka to a garage, I was detained there first, I spent

21     three days there; and when I got there there were some 10 to 15 people

22     already there.  Over those three days, the number grew.  There were about

23     50 of us.  We were there, overcrowded like small fish.  There were

24     beatings.  Then when we were taken to the Hasan Kikic hall, the torture

25     continued.  So it's about 3- to 400 metres away, it is the gym of the

Page 907

 1     Hasan Kikic elementary school, that place.

 2        Q.   And are you able to provide any details of the guards who were at

 3     the Hasan Kikic sports hall or gym?

 4        A.   The guards were younger men, policemen, in these multicoloured

 5     uniforms with weapons, of course.  They did whatever they wanted at night

 6     and that was beatings and taking people out from the garage.  Beating and

 7     so on.

 8        Q.   You were then taken to a place called Manjaca outside Banja Luka.

 9     In your prior testimony, and I'm referring, if Your Honours please, at

10     the transcript T6489, line 7 to 11, you say that:

11             "... in front of the SUP building they were putting -- they were

12     throwing, they were making more people get into these trucks.  They were

13     tied with something.  Their hands were tied two-by-two so that it was --

14     the whole thing was horrible."

15             Can you please explain, the people that you were referring to who

16     were tied two-by-two, what were they coming from?

17        A.   Madam, these were policemen who were going to escort the trucks

18     to the Manjaca concentration camp.  It was not a collection centre.

19     These were the people in the multicoloured uniforms.  The people who they

20     were getting in, who were jumping in, were young people from Hrustovo and

21     Vrpolje.  These are two villages close to Sanski Most.  These were

22     10 to 12 young men who were tied with rope, with both hands, the third

23     rope would tie them to someone else.  So their hands were tied together

24     first, and then they were tied to someone else, to another man.  And then

25     they had to jump in, they were hanging over the truck, falling out, but

Page 908

 1     it would just carry on going.  There was no care at all.

 2        Q.   Were you able to see whether these men had come out of SJB

 3     building or whether they had come from some other place?

 4        A.   These young men were brought from this village which I mentioned,

 5     the village of Hrustovo and the village of Vrpolje.  They were brought

 6     then and placed in the trucks.  Some other people were brought to these

 7     trucks from another hall in the town, and they were taken together with

 8     us who were in the Hasan Kikic hall.

 9        Q.   Am I right in understanding that the SJB building was the

10     collection point for all these different people?

11        A.   The collection points could have been in Sana or in the hall or

12     Betonirka.  I'm talk about Manjaca, though.  Many people refer to it as a

13     "collection centre."  Manjaca was worse than the concentration centres

14     established by Hitler.  They were more skillful at doing it than Hitler.

15     It's a fact, though, that a lot of time had passed since then, so there

16     were people from different posts of different conduct from different

17     professions who were involved there.

18        Q.   How far away is Manjaca from Sanski Most?

19             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, we have read the testimony of this

20     witness, and I don't see any reason why you are taking him through it

21     once again, unless there are some really important points that you wish

22     to highlight.  But otherwise, you don't need to reintroduce the testimony

23     of this witness.  We have seen it, we are fully aware of what is in

24     there.  And this is the purpose of the 92 ter procedure, as you are well

25     aware.

Page 909

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, I am sir.  I am attempting to highlight some

 2     aspects which are pertinent to our indictment and the Prosecution's

 3     theory of the case, and I'll move on.

 4        Q.   You say in your prior testimony at page T6489 that the police met

 5     you at Manjaca.  Can you describe the uniforms of the guards at Manjaca

 6     camp, please?

 7        A.   Your Honour, it's very difficult to say.  There were all sorts.

 8     There was police, this was the Banja Luka police.  We were brought by the

 9     Sanski Most police.  There were policemen there who waited for the

10     trucks, even in uniforms of the former Yugoslav People's Army, the

11     olive-drab uniforms.  They were standing behind.  The police in question

12     were mostly military police wearing multicoloured uniforms.

13             As soon as it's wartime, it's the military police that is

14     involved.

15        Q.   You also mentioned in your prior testimony that Stojan Zupljanin

16     visited Manjaca at T6578 lines 1 to 22 of the transcript.  Do you know if

17     he visited once or more than once?

18        A.   I know that he came once in late July.  I'm not sure, but I was

19     told that he had been there one more time.  I was told by the police.

20     This was already the time when the situation had stabilised a little bit

21     and it was not the same as it was in June, the dying and what was

22     happening, that was outside the bounds of human behaviour.

23             He had been there.  However, those people who came from the

24     leadership of the so-called Serbian Republic of Bosnia Krajina which is

25     the Republic of Srpska Krajina right now, they were actually implementing

Page 910

 1     a strategy of destruction and the forming of some small little state that

 2     was supposed to be part of the then anticipated Greater Serbia.  So the

 3     strategy was sold.  So even the policemen who beat me, I don't condemn

 4     them, but those who issued the orders, who created the strategy of how to

 5     destroy people, this was out of the ordinary.

 6             I am familiar with fascism, but this was a part of fascist

 7     oriented and fascist ideas.

 8        Q.   Did you see Stojan Zupljanin at Manjaca yourself?

 9        A.   I did.  Unfortunately not many times because I was there before.

10     There was a seriously ill man in the infirmary.  He was in a different

11     stable at the first entrance, and this guy was in the other entrance.  I

12     was not allowed -- I mean, he started to talk.  I was not allowed to go

13     in when the speech began.  The only thing that I heard well was the

14     applause of the inmates who were there in that stable.

15             I have a football team in Sanski Most in Grmec [as interpreted].

16     The listeners couldn't clap enough when it was explained to them that

17     they would go home.  But those who had committed something would be

18     subject to proceedings by the military court or some lighter violations

19     would be punished by expelling them to some third country.  And those who

20     were allegedly not guilty of anything, because in my case it said that I

21     was the fourth in line in Sanski Most as the most conservative person out

22     of a total of 400 people, which means that I would not be released, but

23     that I would be liquidated.

24        Q.   When you say you heard --

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Is that the appropriate time, sir?

Page 911

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, with your permission, I would like

 5     to make a correction to page 21 line 19 of today's transcript.  The

 6     65 ter 3424 tendered by the OTP has actually been admitted with the

 7     previous witness as Exhibit P60.12.  And 65 ters 365 and 1275 will

 8     receive numbers P61.1 and P61.2.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Pidwell, I think there is some confusion in

12     what the witness told us about the incident in Manjaca in the stable with

13     the speech and the applause.  You asked about the visit from

14     Mr. Zupljanin, and I think the witness was referring to the visit of

15     Mr. Brdjanin, as I take his statement in the Brdjanin case.  I checked

16     that during the break.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  I will clarify that with the witness, sir.

18        Q.   Sir, before --

19        A.   All those who came follow the same system, the same tactics.  The

20     inmates applauded because they were hoping to go home as they were being

21     told, whereas some were supposed to be expelled to third countries or

22     find their way out of the prison or out of the camp.  That is why the

23     detainees were applauding.

24             The same thing happened when Mr. Brdjanin visited, as well as

25     Mr.  Zupljanin.  These were not long speeches.  All of that was short,

Page 912

 1     and that's why the detainees applauded.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:

 5        Q.   Sir, when Mr. Zupljanin came to Manjaca on this day, you have

 6     described how you heard the detainees clapping after he was speaking in

 7     the stables.  Can you describe where you saw him, please?

 8        A.   As he was moving from one stable to another.  He was inside a

 9     stable as I was coming back from the clinic and I saw him there.  They

10     wouldn't allow me in because this speech had already commenced.  I saw

11     him moving from one stable to another.  I was about 10 metres away.

12        Q.   And how did you know it was Stojan Zupljanin?

13        A.   Well, I had heard of his visit before that.  I heard he would

14     visit that day from the police.  It was at the time when I had -- well, I

15     couldn't say authority, but when the police started behaving much better

16     towards me, as well as the warden.  The situation changed because I

17     treated both the police as well as the management of the camp and even

18     some farmers, local farmers, from Manjaca.

19             June was rather bad when those from Sanski Most came and when

20     some documents arrived about me, but later on that changed.  Irrespective

21     of their Chetnik ways, they realised that I treated Mr. Popovic, who was

22     the warden, the same as I did anyone else.  I sent him to the clinical

23     hospital in Banja Luka for his heart problems.

24        Q.   When you saw Stojan Zupljanin on this day, was he accompanied by

25     anyone, and if so, do you know who those people were?

Page 913

 1        A.   I don't know who those people were, and I couldn't know.  I

 2     didn't ask anyone.  I was just told before his arrival that Zupljanin

 3     would come.  Indeed it was him.  As for those escorting him, I don't know

 4     who they were, bodyguards, I presume.

 5        Q.   And did you speak to the other detainees about Mr. Zupljanin's

 6     visit after he had left?

 7        A.   Yes, I did, certainly.  We all talked about that.  Some were even

 8     optimistic as they believed they would go home, that things would be

 9     over.  It was early August or late July.  As a matter of fact, we

10     remained there until the second half of November.

11             At that point in time, they were hoping, having heard the speech,

12     that they would go home, and that is primarily why they applauded.

13        Q.   Was this the only time that you actually saw Mr. Zupljanin at

14     Manjaca?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Are you able to recall if his second visit was before or after

17     this time, his other visit to Manjaca was before or after this occasion

18     when you saw him?

19        A.   The first visit is when I saw him for the first time, unless he

20     had previously been there to see those in charge of the camp without

21     going to the stables.  That would be another thing.  But this was the

22     first time I saw him.  When he came for the second time, it was far

23     shorter and there were no discussions.  But the same system was in place.

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, just one question for the transcript.

25     The witness said the first visit when I saw him was the first and the

Page 914

 1     last time.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I misspoke.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:

 4        Q.   Do you know if the second visit was a few days after the first,

 5     or several weeks, or months?  Are you able to remember or give the

 6     Trial Chamber an approximate time --

 7             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's a leading question, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, you may rephrase your question, but could I

 9     remind you, Ms. Pidwell, that you've used already 30 minutes of what was

10     supposed to be a very short introduction.  And if you still have videos

11     to show to this witness, then let's get on with that.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, sir.  The Prosecution had advised 45

13     minutes for this witness, and I'll be finished within that time.

14        Q.   Do you know the time difference between the two visits of

15     Mr. Zupljanin?

16        A.   Two or three weeks, more or less.  The second visit was shorter.

17        Q.   And when you say "shorter," how long was it; do you know?

18        A.   As far as we could see when he spoke to the inmates, that was for

19     about half an hour.  He was there also to see the commander of the camp

20     and the warden as well as those in charge of the camp in general.

21        Q.   Do you know if Mico Stanisic ever visited Manjaca, to your

22     knowledge?

23        A.   I used to know a lot, but I'm no longer certain whether he ever

24     was there.

25        Q.   Do you know if General Talic ever visited Manjaca?

Page 915

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you recall when that was?

 3        A.   I think all those visits took place in July/August.  Perhaps a

 4     few towards the end of June.  All of the visits took place within two or

 5     three months.  We didn't pay much attention to them, at least I did not.

 6     I did not prepare myself to follow who went where or who said what.  I

 7     didn't prepare myself for that in particular, so there may be omissions

 8     or things like that.

 9        Q.   Do you recall when some international news crews came to Manjaca

10     in 1992?

11        A.   There were several.  Even some Serb priests were there, five or

12     six young men who had come from Australia, then the CNN, some other

13     agencies.  Lots of people came, and each of them had their own opinion,

14     which mainly tallied with the strategy of those who had begun the whole

15     thing.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd like now to show a portion of a video.  It's

17     less than 2 minutes long.  It's 65 ter 2301.  The sound quality is very

18     bad.  It's a CNN report.  It has -- it is in English.  It has B/C/S

19     subtitles, and the interpreters have been given the transcript.  So I

20     would ask that they translate we go, for the English, if possible.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And while we wait for the video to come up, where

22     is it taken and what do we see?

23             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, sir.  It is a CNN report of a visit to

24     Manjaca camp in August 1992, reporting -- a report from

25     Christiane Amanpour.

Page 916

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can merely read out the

 3     transcript we have been given.

 4             Female voice:  Manjaca is a military camp in Serbian held

 5     Northern Bosnia.  Authorities say they hold 3 and a half thousand

 6     prisoners here including about 1.000 from the notorious Omarska camp.

 7     Pictures of emaciated captives in detention centres last week outraged

 8     the international community and prompted the Serbian leaders to quickly

 9     transfer a hundred into this military facility.

10             Mail voice:  This terrified little prisoner mumbles that

11     conditions here are slightly better.

12             Christiane Amanpour:  We get enough food now, says this man.  We

13     were only allowed to interview two inmates and in each case the soldiers

14     immediately wanted to know what we had asked.

15             This is one of the camps officials of the International Red Cross

16     say they will be inspecting this week.  Indeed, the president of

17     Bosnia's Serbs has offered to hand them control of all of these detention

18     centres.  The Serb leadership is under tremendous pressure to allow

19     outsiders access to these camps.  The proposed UN resolution would

20     authorise any means necessary to implement that access, as well as

21     guarantee the supply of humanitarian aid.  Still, even though Karadzic

22     himself authorised our visits to this camp, journalists were allowed less

23     than half an hour it to assess the situation.  Soldiers moved us along

24     rapidly, allowing us to take very few pictures and to ask even fewer

25     questions.  The camp commandant insists the Geneva Convention it being

Page 917

 1     respected but those prisoners we asked maintained they were civilians not

 2     soldiers.  Those we saw were crammed into cattle sheds where they spend

 3     all day and all night, huddled together like animals.  They are allowed

 4     to leave these quarters only briefly to a small ration of bread and soup.

 5             Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Manjaca in Northern Bosnia.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:

 7        Q.   Sir, you saw the CNN clip.  Was that a true depiction of Manjaca

 8     detainees in August when you were there?

 9        A.   By that time, the situation had improved.  There was more food.

10     But the food is not everything that was taking place there.  You can see

11     for yourselves what they looked like.  They said that it was good and

12     that there was food, but they couldn't say anything.  They feared the

13     night and the things that would happen.  They would be taken out, beaten.

14     That was -- there was a reason why they kept saying that conditions were

15     good and that they had food.  One of them once dared say that there were

16     problems, and I remember clearly what fate befell him.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Prosecution would like to tender that video as an

18     exhibit, please.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P63, Your Honours.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, I've just been advised I must say it's a

22     clip from that portion of the 65 ter number video.

23             Just finally, could I have 65 ter 2314, please.  This is also a

24     video-clip.  It's -- it's less than 5 minutes long.  It's -- we won't

25     show the whole thing.  It's an aerial view of the area of Sanski Most and

Page 918

 1     Manjaca taken by the Office of the Prosecutor in 2001.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps if we could pause it there.

 4        Q.   Sir, are you able to identify these buildings?

 5        A.   Not quite.  Because the stables or the so-called pavilions where

 6     we were are not shown here.  I'm unable to say what these buildings are.

 7     This was recorded from an airplane, and it's not a very good quality.  I

 8     seldom left the building.  I was only within the barbed-wire perimeter.

 9     I never left the perimeter, not by 1 metre.  So I can only tell you what

10     things looked like from the inside.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps we'll play it for 30 more seconds and if

12     there's anything you do recognise, sir, perhaps you could say, Stop.

13     Otherwise we'll leave it there.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd be glad to help.

16             MS. PIDWELL:

17        Q.   Was there anything you recognised in that footage or not?

18        A.   No, there wasn't.  I saw a large meadow with hedges and houses,

19     but there's nothing I can make out.

20        Q.   It's fine.  Thank you, sir.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps if that could be marked for identification,

22     and we will tender that through another witness.

23             I have no further questions.  If you could please remain there

24     and answer any questions from the Defence counsel, sir.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Marked for identification.

Page 919

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P64 marked for identification,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Cross-examination?

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sabanovic.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   Although I think it may be early evening already.  I'm attorney

 9     at law, Slobodan Cvijetic, co-counsel appearing for Mr. Mico Stanisic.  I

10     have a few questions of you concerning your testimony.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Before my first question, I would

12     kindly ask for Defence Exhibit 1D00-4522.

13        Q.   I apologise, can you see the document?

14        A.   I can, but I have never read it.

15        Q.   I will just draw your attention to a few things in the document

16     and then we'll discuss it.  These are the conclusions of the Crisis Staff

17     of the Serb municipality of Sanski Most.  You see that certain items

18     follow, I presume?

19        A.   I can.

20        Q.   For example, in item 1 it states that the Crisis Staff of the

21     Serb municipality of Sanski Most hereby adopts a decision on the

22     introduction of a curfew on the territory of the Serbian municipality,

23     and so on and so forth.  I believe you can read it for yourself.

24             Next, please look at item number 8.  Did you read it?

25        A.   I did.

Page 920

 1        Q.   Does this refer to the appointment of the acting director of the

 2     health centre, that is to say, your former position?  Does this have to

 3     do with you?

 4        A.   Yes, it does.

 5        Q.   Therefore, we can see that it was done by a decision of the

 6     Crisis Staff.  I suppose you agree, and I would kindly ask to you pause

 7     since we speak the same language.  We should not overlap since the

 8     interpreters are putting everything we say into the other language.

 9             So we can agree that you were removed from that position by this

10     Crisis Staff's decision?  We agree, I believe.  I don't think we need to

11     repeat.

12             Mr. Sabanovic --

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Actually, point 8 only says that Mr. Lukic and

14     Vinko and Boro are tasked with preparing the appointment of a new acting

15     director, is that correct?  So you assume that this is the successor of

16     the witness who is to be appointed, but it doesn't actually say that he

17     was taken off his job by this decision.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let's clear it up

19     this way.

20        Q.   Mr. Saban ovic, in April, as this is the 27th of April decision,

21     did a new acting director assume your position?  Can you tell us

22     anything, judging by the date?

23        A.   It's difficult for me to say.  There was a lady director,

24     Ljilja Kasagic, she was a Serb, but she was removed as well.  Then it was

25     Dr. Dilas who succeeded her.  But I think this has to do with me because

Page 921

 1     the SDS president, together with the policemen I mentioned before, had to

 2     do with this.  They told me -- they informed me of that decision.  And we

 3     see here Lukic and who else?

 4        Q.   Vinko and Boro.

 5        A.   I don't know who these two are, but I do know Lukic.  And I know

 6     that this had to do with my removal.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this

 8     sufficiently identifies the document by the witness, and I kindly seek to

 9     tender it.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D11, Your Honours.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Before my next question, I would

13     kindly ask for the next Defence document which is 1D00-4486.

14        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, on the left-hand side you have the B/C/S version.

15     Were you able to go over the first page?

16        A.   Only cursory.  Yes.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to page 3, please, and

18     then I'll put my question.  Page 3 for the witness, please.  The last

19     page.  The one following that.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this 086?

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Not you, Witness.  This is it.

22        Q.   This is a standard combat report which is also an order by

23     General Talic.  In your statement you mentioned the arrival of the

24     6th Krajina Brigade, is that so?  This is the order ordering the unit to

25     arrive in the area of Sanski Most.  In your statement and your testimony,

Page 922

 1     you spoke rather extensively about the arrival of that unit; is that

 2     correct?  You have to utter an audible answer.

 3        A.   But you've just told me not to.

 4        Q.   Just not at the same time.

 5        A.   I was on my way to Prijedor when I encountered the tanks of the

 6     6th Krajina Brigade which was arriving in the territory of Sanski Most.

 7        Q.   Very well.  On page 3, the last page, there is item 3.  And

 8     below, General Talic outlines the reasons for the arrival of the unit.

 9     It says that the population needs to be protected and inter-ethnic

10     conflict prevented.

11             Mr. Sabanovic, did any inter-ethnic conflicts begin at that time?

12        A.   Not conflicts, but there may have been verbal arguments among

13     politicians.  Not more than that.  On my way to Prijedor, I encountered

14     the brigade.

15        Q.   Well, let's put it this way, were tensions on the rise among the

16     ethnic communities, as you, I believe, put it in the statement?

17        A.   It did not come about then, but by that time it may have been so.

18     I didn't pay much heed to it.

19        Q.   I will quote your statement, you say:

20             "As early as June and July 1991 I could sense that tensions were

21     rising, or to be more precise the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived in our

22     area..."

23             And so on and so forth.  This is why I'm asking you about this.

24             In what way did the population welcome the unit?

25        A.   It welcomed it in no way.  As of World War II, there was no army

Page 923

 1     in Sanski Most, and it was well known that the 6th Krajina Brigade was

 2     about to come containing no Muslims, whereas all armies before that one

 3     comprised all constituent peoples of the region.  This one only had

 4     Serbs, primarily those who did not hail from Sanski Most.  And besides,

 5     the 6th Krajina unit demonstrated immediately that it was not there to

 6     reduce the tensions.

 7        Q.   Why were there only Serbs in that unit?

 8        A.   Well, it is well known when the war started and who started it.

 9        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you were a member of the SDA; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And in 1991, did your party and the Croatian party issue a decree

12     that Muslim and Croatian military conscripts should not respond to the

13     call-up to serve the military term of duty in the JNA; is that correct?

14        A.   It was the JNA at the time.

15        Q.   No, no, you have to answer the question.  Did they issue the

16     declaration that they should not respond to the call-up?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   You don't know, all right.  So you as the doctor, did you -- as a

19     doctor, did you help military conscripts not to respond to the call-up

20     and not to go to the mobilisation?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are unable to hear the

22     witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness needs to approach the microphone.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

Page 924

 1        Q.   All right.  From what you understood you to say that you issued

 2     certificates to those who met the requirements to have such a

 3     certificate.  Some people who had some sort of illness because of which

 4     they were unable to save in the army?

 5        A.   Those who were in the army --

 6        Q.   You didn't answer my question.

 7        A.   I cannot give you an answer when you did not put me the right --

 8     put to me the right question.

 9        Q.   You have to listen to me.  These are the rules in the courtroom.

10     I'm putting the questions and you are replying.  So those to whom you

11     issued your medical certificate, did they suffer from these illnesses due

12     to which they were unable to serve in the army?

13        A.   Yes, definitely.

14        Q.   All right.  I'm going to read part of the statement that you

15     provided to the Prosecutor.

16             "The JNA began with mobilisation in 1991" --

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps we could have the lines and the page of the

18     statement, please.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, this is on page 2 in

20     the B/C/S, paragraph 3.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps we could have the English reference as

22     well.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We have to ask our case manager to

24     open the page in English and then we will see if the two of us are able

25     to find it.  This is on page 3 in English, paragraph 2.

Page 925

 1        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, listen now:

 2             "The JNA draft began in mid-1991.  I as the head of the medical

 3     clinic was able to issue permits to military-aged men so that they would

 4     not have to respond to the draft due to medical reasons.  Most of the

 5     certificates I issued were false."

 6             Mr. Sabanovic, is this your statement?

 7        A.   No, not the way it states here.  What was done was that I would

 8     take the history of the illness, I would ask the patient, and they would

 9     state the history of the illness.  I could have skipped that and then

10     establish the cause of illness, but these are positions of people from

11     outside who were stating this, from Jasenovac between Croatia and Serbia.

12        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you are very clear in the this part of the

13     statement.

14        A.   I'm very clear now, too.  So it's clear in the first and the

15     second instance.

16        Q.   Let me read further:

17             "I issued some 2.000 of such permits."

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.

19        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you state here:

20             "I did issue the permits for justified reasons."

21             It seems that for justified reasons those certificates were an

22     exception and that you mostly issued false permits.

23        A.   That is according to you.  Not according to me.  In my view, it

24     was just a matter of when somebody is afraid and they are suffering from

25     something, then they are afraid for themselves and not -- they are afraid

Page 926

 1     of you or of me.  So it gets a little bit complicated.  But all of those

 2     medical certificates were objectively written according to the history of

 3     the illness pursuant to the information provided to me by -- provided by

 4     the patient on the basis of the medical examination by the doctor.  It

 5     seems as if it were false because people may consider it to be that way,

 6     but these are not false certificates.

 7        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you are very clear here.  You say yourself in your

 8     statement that the the permits were false.  I'm quoting you.  So,

 9     Mr. Sabanovic --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   -- did the military authorities warn you?

12        A.   The officers from Banja Luka came from the military court.  I

13     don't know if they were actually from the military court, but I think

14     that they were.  They came to see me, and the issuance continued for as

15     many as people who were there who needed it.

16        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you say in your statement:

17             "In spite of their instructions, I continued to issue those

18     permits."

19        A.   Well, not in spite of them.  They said hello to me, and then they

20     left nicely.  I just said, I do have the right to issue these medical

21     permits.

22        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, then when you were issuing those several thousand,

23     you said you continued to do that, so several thousand permits.  The

24     evasion of military duty was a serious violation subject to a substantial

25     prison sentence.

Page 927

 1             Let me just ask you, by this activity of yours, did you assist

 2     such a large number of people to commit such a serious criminal act?

 3        A.   None of those people committed a criminal act.  These were people

 4     who felt unfit - falsely, according to you - but this was not a crime.  I

 5     would be getting into trouble for lesser things than the ones that you

 6     are talking about.

 7        Q.   But you did not suffer particularly because you issued these

 8     false permits?

 9        A.   These were not false permits.  These were issued to people who

10     were unfit for combat between those two states.

11        Q.   In such a large number?

12        A.   Yes, such a large number.  That was in accordance to the number

13     of the population in Sanski Most.

14        Q.   I served in the military, so the number of those unfit according

15     to some percentages could not have been more than a few dozen.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are overlapping.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not admit that they are false.

18     I did say that I issued them but this is a mistake.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Well, the Prosecution made a mistake when they were taking your

21     statement?

22        A.   I said on a number of times --

23             JUDGE HALL:  I'm sorry to intervene, but the interpreters are

24     having difficulty.  Question, answer.  Please wait for the interval to

25     allow the interpreters to catch up.

Page 928

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.  May I

 2     continue.

 3        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, now I'm going to be open.  You were a member of

 4     the party of democratic action and with this activity of yours did you

 5     implement the policy of the SDA and the HDZ, which consisted of, amongst

 6     other things, of toppling the Yugoslav People's Army as an institution of

 7     federal significance entrusted with preserving the Socialist Federal

 8     Republic of Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   This is so dangerous what you are saying, so I really don't know

10     where are you getting this force from, for me to include the health

11     aspect into the policy of the SDA or the HDZ.  That was your tactic right

12     from the beginning, and that is why you brought about the situation, to

13     see who suffered in this war, which you cannot even describe as a war

14     because the place where I live there --

15        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, could you please reply with a yes or no.  Did you

16     include this in the policy of the SDA?

17        A.   No, nothing was like that.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat his question.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Should I repeat the number?

20             JUDGE HALL:  The interpreters are asking if you repeat the

21     question.  Again counsel and witness have slipped into the habit of

22     overlapping the questions and the answers.  Please bear in mind the work

23     of the interpreters.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can you please put this document

25     on the ELMO now.  1D00-3848.

Page 929

 1        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, I assume that you cannot see what this looks like.

 2     This document on the left-hand side, the copy is a little bit bad.

 3        A.   What would you like me to do?

 4        Q.   I'm going to read to you the decision, and then we'll comment on

 5     it.

 6             This is a small municipality of Citluk.  You will agree that the

 7     municipality of Citluk is a small municipality?

 8        A.   I was never there, but I assume that.

 9        Q.   And they reached a decision there about the moratorium on sending

10     recruits to the JNA on the 19th of July, 1991, as early as that.  So

11     imagine, now, the situation where a small municipality like that in

12     July 1991 introduces a moratorium on the sending of recruits to the JNA.

13     That municipality was under the control of the HDZ.

14             Now, I have to repeat the question which I owe due to the -- for

15     the interpreters, and I'm asking you, did you join, by issuing these

16     medical certificates, to the implementation of such a policy?

17        A.   This is the first time that I'm hearing this now about me seeing,

18     hearing, or joining any kind of endeavour like that.

19        Q.   All right.  Very well.  Mr. Sabanovic, in your statement to the

20     Prosecutor, you spoke about your arrest and you said, among other things,

21     that when you were arrested, you were pushed into a military vehicle.

22     Today, in response to a question by the Prosecutor, you said that it was

23     a police vehicle.  So what is correct?

24        A.   What is correct is that it was the police, the police.  These

25     were military policemen.  That is the truth.  I don't remember the

Page 930

 1     vehicles.  If I were able to do that after all these years, then I would

 2     be able to write whatever I -- I don't have any comments.  I can't even

 3     listen to these lies.

 4        Q.   No, no, you have to be patient so we can clarify these things.

 5     So you were arrested by the military police; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I'm going to read from your statement where you say:

 8             "I stayed for three days in the garage.  Military -- Serbian

 9     military police offered us food.  Most members of the military police

10     were from Sanski Most."

11             Is this true?

12        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, there were both kinds.  The military

13     police were from Sana and from another place.  It was the military

14     police.

15        Q.   Just be patient, just be patient.  You have you have to wait for

16     my question.  In the next passage it says military guards would come

17     occasionally to the garage at 0 -- 2000 hours, take me in front of the

18     garage, and proceed to beat me; is this correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Then you continue to talk about going to, I think --

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] -- the gym; is that correct?

23             JUDGE HALL:  Counsel, there's an objection.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm trying to find this in the English transcript.

25     I'd appreciate a page and line number.

Page 931

 1             MS. SAVIC: [Microphone not activated] This is the witness

 2     statement -- the interview from February 2001.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you were in the sports hall for a while; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Who was guarding the sports facility?

 8        A.   Police.

 9        Q.   Who, which police?

10        A.   What do you mean which police?  You are asking me to be a

11     professional, to be able to tell you what sort of a police.  It was

12     professional police, military police.  As long as they were in Sana,

13     every policemen had weapons, and they would come to this hall.  Even

14     civilians would enter this hall, look around, and beat whoever they

15     wanted to.  As for the police, it was the military police.

16        Q.   Can you please wait for the interpreters to finish.  Is it your

17     final answer that it was the military police?

18        A.   It was the military police of the military.  I don't know if it

19     was a regular soldier or a military soldier.  I don't know, I wasn't

20     interested.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now look at

22     exhibit from 65 ter list 611.  Can we please look at page 2.

23        Q.   Can you read what it says on the left-hand side of the screen.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we open the next page of that

25     document, please.  I apologise.  Yes, this is only the interpreter's

Page 932

 1     affirmation, so we need to look at the next page.  This is it.  All

 2     right.

 3        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, as you can see, this is an order of the municipal

 4     staff of -- for civilian protection about the accommodation of refugees

 5     who withdrew from certain settlements to the sports hall.  And then under

 6     paragraph Roman II, it says that military police of the

 7     Territorial Defence staff would be guarding the column.

 8             Does this confirm what you said about it being the military

 9     police that was involved?

10        A.   You would like me to be a military strategist?

11        Q.   Is that the answer to your question?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I forgot to ask that

14     the previous document be tendered into evidence, and this is document

15     1D00-3848.  And now I would like to have admitted this document that I

16     have just shown.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, I believe that the previous

18     document that you showed, that is to say, 1D00-3848, the moratorium by

19     the municipality in Citluk, the witness had no knowledge of this

20     moratorium, he couldn't comment on it, he had never seen it before.  I

21     don't think it's appropriate to have this admitted.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you have made this

23     decision, and I am going to abide by it.  I withdraw this document.  But

24     in the next document you can see what sort of police guarded the sports

25     facility, and the witness is talking about that specifically.  So I would

Page 933

 1     ask for that document to be tendered.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's one thing the sports hall

 3     where the population was brought and another thing is the gym --

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Sabanovic, I don't have a lot

 5     of time, so you will just permit me to put questions to you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  We are advised that the current document is already

 7     marked as an exhibit.  It's already entered as an exhibit.

 8             Sorry, Anna, what is the number?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P60.8, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise if that

12     slipped past me.  I will just continue.

13        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you talked about going to Manjaca, and you say,

14     among other things, that the following day, on the 3rd or the 4th of

15     June, the military police arrived and ordered everyone to leave the

16     sports facility.  Is this correct what it says in your statement?

17        A.   I don't understand you at all.  I never said that, and something

18     like that could not have come out of my mouth.

19        Q.   I'm stating -- I'm reading your statement to the Prosecution

20     which you signed.

21        A.   This cannot be.  The commander of the whole --

22        Q.   All right.  You said that you didn't say that, so I cannot force

23     you.

24             Mr. Sabanovic --

25        A.   All lies.

Page 934

 1        Q.   We are going to come to Manjaca.  Can you please tell me who was

 2     there waiting for you when you got to Manjaca?

 3        A.   The police, military police.

 4        Q.   I'm going to read a part of your statement where you say:

 5             "We were greeted by a lieutenant of the JNA, whose name I don't

 6     know, and soldiers."

 7             Is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  For me a military policemen is a soldier.  As for this one,

 9     there was a corporal --

10        Q.   All right.  You answered the question.  Do you agree with this

11     part of the statement where you say that you were greeted by a lieutenant

12     of the JNA?

13        A.   Well, it was not the lieutenant.  It was the military and the

14     military police.  But this was a man who I was not allowed to turn

15     around.  I heard him mention my name.  He was the son of a chief --

16        Q.   You answered the question, Witness.  I have to interrupt you

17     because I have to continue to work with you so --

18        A.   You seem to know things better than I do.  You were never there,

19     but you seem to know things better than I do.  Just one lie after

20     another.

21        Q.   You said in your statement that representatives of international

22     humanitarian organisations came, journalists and so on; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes, that is right.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at document

25     from the 65 ter list 503.

Page 935

 1        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you can see from this document that the visit was

 2     approved by the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps?

 3        A.   They approved everything that they wished to approve.

 4        Q.   Who was the commander of that corps; do you know?

 5        A.   The 1st Banja Luka Corps?

 6        Q.   Yes?

 7        A.   General Talic.

 8        Q.   You said today that General Talic would come to visit.  What was

 9     the name of the commander of the camp?

10        A.   Popovic.  Bogdan Popovic.  I think it was Bogdan Popovic.

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.

12        Q.   You just answered about his rank, so he was a lieutenant-colonel;

13     is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is it correct that he enjoyed the trust of General Talic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   How do you know that?

18        A.   According to the conversation, I was in contact every day and

19     talked and Popovic would boast that he was held in high esteem by

20     General Talic and that he could do whatever he wished as far as his work

21     was concerned.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right.  I apologise,

23     Your Honours, I'm talking about this approval for the visit of the

24     international commission.  I would like to ask you to admit that and to

25     give it an exhibit number.

Page 936

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D12, Your Honours.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   In your statement you say that in conversation with some military

 5     policemen you concluded that Popovic enjoyed the trust of General Talic?

 6        A.   In my discussions with the policemen and with

 7     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic in person.

 8        Q.   Then in your statement you also say that the military policemen

 9     in the camp worked in shifts; is that correct?

10        A.   I was not their supervisor.  I wasn't asked to make any shifts

11     and who would work when.  I worked in the health centre in Sanski Most.

12     I had nothing to do with the police.  This is absurd.

13        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, I'm merely quoting your statement.

14        A.   Quote whatever you want, it's a lie.

15        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, please try to be quiet when I'm speaking, and I'm

16     being warned all the time of the same.  I'm merely quoting your statement

17     in which you say that the MPs in the camp worked in shifts.  Tell me

18     something about the supply of water in the camp.

19        A.   First, there was a fountain in the stable where I was, for the

20     cattle.  Later on, some 3- to 500 people had to line up, use their tin

21     cans to go down to the lake to bring water.

22        Q.   Did the army do anything in order to reconstruct the pipeline,

23     the water-pipe?

24        A.   We were told that such an attempt was made, but nothing of the

25     sort was ever done.

Page 937

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show 1D00-4511.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, we now go back to the command of the

 3     1st Krajina Corps.  As you can see, it says that the water-supply system

 4     should be reconstructed because of the dissatisfactory bacteriological

 5     test results.  You said that you knew of such reconstruction that was to

 6     take place.

 7        A.   I heard about that because I was with the police all the time as

 8     well as with the commander.  I was in contact with them on a daily basis,

 9     but it never worked.  I only know that the army brought in tank trucks

10     with water to be used for showers.

11        Q.   So you heard of something like this planned, but nothing was

12     done, in your words?

13        A.   It wasn't done.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HALL:  I thought the witness says that he didn't know of

17     this.  Could you assist me?

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Quite the contrary, Your Honour.

19     The witness said that he was familiar of the plans for reconstruction,

20     but allegedly it never took place.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D13, Your Honours.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the next document to

24     the witness, which is 1D00-5 --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  4507.

Page 938

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   There, Mr. Sabanovic, be patient please, I'll put the question.

 3     The previous document was dated the 27th of July.  And indeed on the

 4     5th of August, 1992, the command is again urging to have the

 5     reconstruction done as in the interim as you yourself said was not.

 6     After this second intervention, was anything done with the water-supply

 7     system?

 8        A.   Nothing was done.  They were urging, as you put it, but nothing

 9     happened either the first or the second time around.  The water was being

10     brought in in cans from the lake for drinking, and tank trucks brought

11     water for showers.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] These documents are related,

13     Your Honours, hence I seek to tender this one since it is directly

14     related to the previous.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D14, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, could you just clarify with the

18     witness whether the water brought in the tanks was water that could be --

19     that you could drink or was it only for showers?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not for drinking.  It was for

21     showering.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because it was contaminated or unclean water?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I never did any

24     tests.  I only know that it was not supposed to be drank.  It was for

25     showers.  And perhaps a truck was used to shower some 500 people.  They

Page 939

 1     will just sprinkle it over you and there you go.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, were any prisoners taken out of the camp to

 4     undertake some work while you were there?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show Defence

 7     exhibits relating to this.  This is 1D00-4503.

 8        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, we, again, go back to the command of the

 9     1st Krajina Corps.  That command is addressing the camp management asking

10     for 20 prisoners to carry out work in the period of ten days.  Did those

11     people indeed leave?

12        A.   Yes, they did.  They cut wood, worked in the fields sewing corn,

13     did other types of work depending on the season.  They constructed the

14     church.  They did whatever was necessary and ordered in that area.

15        Q.   Very well, Mr. Sabanovic.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of them, a Catholic was even

18     killed while working there cutting down timber.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness confirmed this,

20     I would kindly ask that this be admitted.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D15, Your Honours.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next document is

24     1D00-4505.

25        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, we won't dwell on this one too much.  But here we

Page 940

 1     see that 170 prisoners were supposed to be used for work on orders of the

 2     1st Krajina Corps.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe the

 4     witness has already commented on this fact, and I would kindly ask that

 5     since it is related to the previous documents, this document be admitted

 6     as well.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was you and the command that

 8     were counting, although incorrectly.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic --

11             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, the document is admitted and marked.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I apologise,

13     Your Honour, for this oversight.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D16, Your Honours.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, who commanded the military police and the guards

17     in Manjaca camp?

18        A.   The commander, the commander of the camp, and the warden of the

19     camp who was a policeman.

20        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, were any people coming from the military security

21     service to conduct interrogations of the prisoners?

22        A.   There were interrogators there who conducted interrogations.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we show the

24     next document to the witness.  It is from the 65 ter list, number 655.

25        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, please have a look at the document.  It is the

Page 941

1 1st Krajina Corps command, Department For Intelligence and Security Affairs.

2 In the document, it is stated that after processing, they carried out a

3 selection of prisoners and that some may be released as it was determined that

4 there was no reason to hold them any longer. You are not mentioned in the

5 document per se, but the citizens–the inhabitants of Sanski Most municipality.

6 It was signed by Colonel Stevan Bogajevic. Does this confirm the fact you

7 mentioned, namely that there were investigators who came in the camp? They say

8 here that they made a selection and some could be released home.

9 A. If this is the Bogojevic from the Banja Luka football club Borac, then he

10 was at Manjaca.

11 Q. I asked you to confirm this fact which I believe you did. Therefore, your

12 honours, I think that the document can be admitted, as the investigators from

13 the department...

14 A. Only one of them was there at the time...

15 MR. CVIJETIC:...for intelligence and security affairs indeed visited Manjaca.

16 Since the witness confirms that, I kindly seek to tender this document.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D17, Your Honours.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, my last question in this cross-examination is,

21     When did you hear for the first time in your life that there was someone

22     called Mico Stanisic?

23        A.   In that period.  I don't know when.  In the war period.

24     Actually, in the post-war period.

25        Q.   So you didn't hear of him during the war, but afterwards?

Page 942

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 3     questions.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Counsel, we are wondering whether it

 5     would be convenient to take the break now rather than interrupting your

 6     cross-examination?

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, it's up to the

 8     witness.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can go on all night long, if you

10     wish.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

12     ... now, Your Honour.  Go to the break.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I was wondering if we could raise a

18     scheduling matter concerning Ms. Hanson, at your convenience.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, let's finish the witness and we can take

20     this -- let's finish the witness and then there should be time to deal

21     with administrative matters towards the end of the session.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, you may begin your cross-examination.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

Page 943

 1     Mr. Sabanovic.  I am Dragan Krgovic.  I'm Defence attorney for

 2     Stojan Zupljanin.  I'm going to put some questions to you relating to

 3     mostly your testimony of today.  I'm going to try to formulate my

 4     questions so that you can very simply respond with a yes or no.  And if

 5     any clarification is necessary, you can also do that.  I am going to give

 6     you time for that.

 7             In order to avoid overlapping, I would like to ask you to wait

 8     with your answer until there's been a little break.  We speak the same

 9     language, and if in the transcript there's overlapping then it's

10     difficult to have a record in the transcript of exactly what you said and

11     then later that would require correction.  So can you please observe this

12     suggestion when you are giving your answers.  Of course, this also

13     applies to me because I also have the same problem.

14             Mr. Sabanovic, in relation to your stay in Manjaca and everything

15     that happened to you, you provided several statements.  I even think you

16     testified here in the Brdjanin case before this Tribunal; isn't that

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   When I'm talking about the statements, I'm talking about the

20     statement you gave to the investigative organs in Germany, and also the

21     statement you provided to the Prosecutor.  That is what I will be

22     referring to, these two statements.  One that was given in 1999 on the

23     26th of May, that was given in Germany.  And the second one is the

24     statement given to the investigators from the Prosecutor's Office of the

25     1st and 2nd of December; and the 14th and the 17th of February; and the

Page 944

 1     19th of February, 1991 [as interpreted].  Do you agree that these are

 2     these two statements?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And since a lot of time has passed since those events, almost 17

 5     years, and it's normal, like you said today, that you do not recall every

 6     single detail, and it's possible that even if you tried your best, you

 7     still wouldn't be able to remember every detail; isn't that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry to interrupt, I think there might be a

10     mistake in the transcript, page 62, line 24 reads statement dated the

11     19th of February, 1991.  Perhaps my friend can clarify that, please.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I said, and the witness

13     confirmed that it was 2001.  I apologise.  Well, probably the

14     interpreters didn't hear me correctly.  I'm talking about the statement

15     you gave to the Prosecutor; we are talking about the 2001, after all of

16     these events.  And in the transcript it was entered wrongly that you

17     provided statements in 1991, so this is all I wanted to say.  This is the

18     essence of the intervention by the Prosecutor.

19        Q.   You would agree with me that the statement that you gave

20     immediately after these events reflect what you said according to your

21     best recollection and your recollection at the time was the best in

22     relation to these events; isn't that correct?

23        A.   A lot of time has passed since then, now even more time has

24     passed, so.

25        Q.   But, of course, you remembered better nine or ten years ago what

Page 945

 1     happened than you do now; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, I'm going to show you the statement you gave to

 4     the Prosecutor, and I would like you to confirm whether we are talking

 5     about the same statement in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

 7     his statement in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, could you please look at the statement that is in

 9     the B/C/S, as they call it here.  It's the Bosnian, Croatian, and

10     Serbian.  This is how we refer to our language here in the Tribunal.  Is

11     it your signature on that statement?

12        A.   No.  No, this is not my signature.  This is not my signature.

13     This is my signature at the top, but not here.

14        Q.   It's not all your signature, one is your signature and the second

15     signature is by the person who took the statement and who also

16     translated.  Can you please repeat what you said loudly, that one is your

17     signature and the other is the signature of another person?

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.  What should I do now?

19        Q.   I'm going to put some questions to you.  Please, you, when you

20     testified in the Brdjanin case, and in this statement mention different

21     persons who came to visit the military prison or camp in Manjaca.  In the

22     statement, please, can you look at this version in our language.  This is

23     on page 16.

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  The same version in English.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Have you found page 16?  The number is at the

Page 946

 1     bottom of the page, perhaps it's not so easy to find.

 2        A.   Yes, and what am I supposed to do now?

 3        Q.   Can you please look at paragraph 5 from the top.  Take your

 4     glasses, please.  The paragraph begins with these words:

 5             "Slobodan" [as interpreted] "Zupljanin came to the camp..."

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are unable to see where he is

 7     reading.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry to interrupt, but the transcript reads:

 9             "Slobodan Zupljanin came to the camp ..."

10             And I think that was an error.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Stojan Zupljanin, it's a mistake.

12        Q.   I looked at that.  This is the last sentence of that paragraph,

13     and it says:

14             "That is the only occasion in which I know for sure that Stojan

15     Zupljanin visited the camp."

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This is at the bottom of

17     page 15 and the top of page 16.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   All right.  So, very well.  The last sentence in that paragraph?

20        A.   Yes, I can see that.

21        Q.   Do you remember ever saying that to the Prosecution?

22        A.   I don't know.  Probably.  Probably.  Because I heard that he had

23     come on another occasion, but I wasn't there.  Perhaps this is a mistake.

24        Q.   You testified in the Brdjanin case after you provided this

25     statement?

Page 947

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Then you testified for three days and the Prosecutor also asked

 3     you then who had come to Manjaca, and amongst others - this is page 6577

 4     of the transcript of the 4th of June, 2002 - you replied and described

 5     just the one occasion when Stojan Zupljanin came to Manjaca.  I can read

 6     that to you, but I don't know whether the Prosecutor read this part of

 7     the transcript to you during proofing.  But on those pages it says that

 8     you saw Stojan Zupljanin only once on that occasion and you only referred

 9     to him coming there only once.  Do you remember your testimony in the

10     Brdjanin case?

11        A.   Well, I do remember, but I have no reason to really pay attention

12     to that.  And so what am I supposed to do now?

13        Q.   You mentioned -- after 17 years from the events, mentioned a

14     possible second time that Stojan Zupljanin came to Manjaca.

15        A.   This is something that others told me.  The inmates told me.  I

16     didn't see him.

17        Q.   I'm going to quote what you said today on page 35 of the

18     transcript.  You did not prepare specifically to testify about this

19     event, so there are mistakes or errors possible about that; isn't that

20     correct?  This is on transcript page 35, line 4, of today's transcript.

21     So it's possible that then when you said in 2000 that your recollection

22     was very fresh and that you said then what you actually remembered best,

23     and that about the second time it's possible that you made a mistake?

24        A.   This is something that I heard from others.  I didn't see him.

25     Other inmates who talked about it.

Page 948

 1        Q.   Who talked with Stojan Zupljanin?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you remember at the time when you were in Manjaca that a

 4     person by the name of Zarko Tole was with you?

 5        A.   I think that is a Croatian --

 6        Q.   Mayor -- major or colonel?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   He was helping in the kitchen in Manjaca?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the president of the court from Sanski Most, Adil Draganovic,

11     was there with you also; isn't that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And did Adil Draganovic perhaps tell you that he had spoken with

14     Stojan Zupljanin?

15        A.   Well, I couldn't really tell you.  Adil comes from the same place

16     as I do, so I would have told you right away that it was Adil who had

17     told me that.

18        Q.   Do you know that Stojan Zupljanin and Adil Draganovic went to

19     high school together?

20        A.   No, I don't know that.

21        Q.   And that Stojan Zupljanin was a good friend with this Zarko Tole,

22     the major from the Croatian Defence Council?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And that the reason he visited Manjaca was precisely to visit

25     these two people and to talk with them?

Page 949

 1        A.   Yeah, it's possible.  He didn't talk to me.

 2        Q.   Do you know that Adil Draganovic testified in the Brdjanin case?

 3        A.   No, I don't know that either.

 4        Q.   And that in his testimony he said - and this is on transcript

 5     page 54/55 - that he saw Stojan Zupljanin once and that he spoke with him

 6     in Manjaca.

 7        A.   Who said that?

 8        Q.   Adil Draganovic.

 9             Mr. Sabanovic, in the Brdjanin case, you spoke of the

10     so-called TN [as interpreted].

11        A.   The police, territorial police?

12        Q.   Zupljanin, Kupresanin, and Brdjanin?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   Because their names end in N?

15             MS. PIDWELL:  I think there might need to be a correction to the

16     transcript as well.  Line 8 says "TN."  I think my friend meant three N.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Three N.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] These are the final letters of their last names;

19     correct?  Last names, I mean.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In your statement and in your testimony, you call them

22     politicians who held speeches; is that what you recall?

23        A.   Yes, they were politicians, security officers, and who knows

24     what.  And it wasn't my goal to know that.

25        Q.   When you gave the statement and the testimony in the Brdjanin

Page 950

 1     case, you described them as politicians; do you remember?

 2        A.   That is probably all the same.  In any case, they were the

 3     organisers.  They must have been politicians and security officers.

 4        Q.   When you testified in the Brdjanin case, did you know what

 5     Stojan Zupljanin's position was?

 6        A.   President of the Serb Republic of Krajina.

 7        Q.   You did not know that he was a policeman?

 8        A.   He was president of the Serb Republic of Krajina.

 9        Q.   And you believed he was a politician alongside the other two?

10        A.   Yes, the same thing for all three.

11        Q.   When you mentioned the two visits, you mentioned the two visits

12     by politicians, Kupresanin, Brdjanin, and Zupljanin; you through all of

13     them in; they were all the same to you?

14        A.   Yes, the same, I didn't pay much heed to that; I expected nothing

15     good to come out of it.  And it didn't concern me in any negative way

16     anyhow.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

18     be asked to approach the microphone.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   After those events and prior to this testimony, did you have

21     occasion to discuss these visits with Adil Draganovic?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   When you arrived in The Hague, it was then that you were asked

24     about whether Stojan Zupljanin visited the camp once or twice for the

25     first time; is that correct?

Page 951

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you were told that he visited Manjaca twice, and you accepted

 3     that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Who told you that, the Prosecutor?

 6        A.   I don't know.  What sort of questions are these?

 7        Q.   In the course of proofing with the Prosecution, were you offered

 8     to sign the information you provided?

 9        A.   I think so.

10        Q.   I have in mind the last few days.

11        A.   I don't know.  I did not sign anything recently.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show P62 to the

13     witness.  I apologise, this is in English.

14        Q.   In any case, this is the proofing notes of a meeting you had with

15     the Prosecution.  Did they ask you to sign it afterwards?

16        A.   I don't know.  I don't know if anyone asked me to do so, and I

17     don't remember signing anything.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, I'm not sure where we are going with

19     this.  Either you attach some importance to the fact that your client did

20     visit Manjaca once or maybe twice, and if that is the case, I would like

21     you to assist the Court in explaining why this is important.  Or you are

22     testing the witness's credibility, which is perfectly legitimate, but I

23     think the witness has answered the best he could on the issue of whether

24     he actually saw Mr. Zupljanin once or twice at Manjaca.

25             So could you clarify which direction we are going with this.

Page 952

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is two pronged.

 2     And at this stage I don't want to challenge the credibility of the

 3     witness.  I'm merely seeking to point out that his recollection differs

 4     from the time when he gave his first statement, that it was far better

 5     then.  And given that he was not proofed specifically for this event,

 6     that mistakes may have occurred.

 7             I'm trying to suggest to him that he mixed up the three N's

 8     including my client among the politicians who visited twice, because he

 9     mentioned all those politicians visiting twice.  He did so in his

10     previous testimony, it was only my client that was mentioned as visiting

11     once.  And all of a sudden now we have my client visiting twice.  This is

12     my position regarding that issue.

13             As for the proofing notes --

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But why is it important whether your client

15     visited once or twice?

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] My client was there in his private

17     capacity.

18             THE WITNESS:  And there was nothing important about it.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation] As the witness said, there was

20     nothing important to it, so I didn't want to put too much focus on that.

21     He was here in his private capacity to visit the two people I mentioned a

22     moment ago, Adil Draganovic and Zarko Tole.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now you confuse me.  Because if I understood it

24     correctly, your client actually did address the detainees, and they

25     applauded him, or was that not --

Page 953

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Only two of them individually in

 2     the presence of the commander.  Adil Draganovic testified to that, and he

 3     will appear before this Chamber to speak about that.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So is it your point that your client -- your

 5     client never came to Manjaca in any official capacity?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  Exactly.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  This clarifies the issue.

 8     Thanks.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honour, I wonder if I could just mention the

10     fact that I can't find in the Brdjanin transcript, and I wonder if my

11     learned friend can help me with this, where it's stated by this witness

12     that these three politicians came twice.  He mentioned that all these

13     politicians visited twice, and it's -- the portion of the transcript

14     eludes me.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me.  I'm looking for the

16     reference for Talic twice.  It's page 6688, and in the cross-examination

17     of Mr. Ackerman there's a mention of Mr. Kupresanin.  It is mentioned on

18     several occasions in the transcript.  Brdjanin, Talic, and Kupresanin;

19     they all visited twice, alledgedly.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once or five times is unimportant.

21     What is important is what was taking place and why.  It's not an issue if

22     someone was there once or five times.  For me it's irrelevant.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Why don't you take it directly to the witness to

24     simply settle the matter and put the question to the witness whether

25     actually he is sure that he saw Mr. Zupljanin enter one of the stables

Page 954

 1     and while he was in there he gave a speech to the detainees who then

 2     applauded him.  This seems to be the crucial point.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, you said at the beginning of your testimony that

 5     you saw Mr. Zupljanin outside the barracks, that he didn't enter your

 6     building, that you saw him outside?

 7        A.   He couldn't enter my building because I was not in the barracks,

 8     I was not in the stable.  I arrived later when he was already there, and

 9     I was not allowed to go in as he was moving from the second to the third

10     stable.  That's when I saw him.

11        Q.   You saw him outside?

12        A.   Yes, for the umpteenth time.  I do not understand this.

13        Q.   As you saw him, did he talk to anyone?

14        A.   I don't know.  I didn't follow.  I didn't dare, and I wasn't

15     interested.

16        Q.   And that was the sole time you saw him as Manjaca?

17        A.   Yes.  I heard the rest from the stories going around, but I

18     didn't see him.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, did you see Mr. Stojan Zupljanin

20     enter into one of the stables?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him come out of one building

22     and -- as he moved toward the other.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And did you see him enter the other building?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't look.  I didn't care to

25     look.  The police were there and all that.  And this was no marketplace.

Page 955

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So your testimony is that you saw Mr. Zupljanin

 2     come out from one of the stables; is that correct?

 3        A.   I saw him leave one stable building.  I didn't say he entered the

 4     next one or anything of the sort.  I didn't dare look.  My life was in

 5     danger, and I didn't care to look who went where.  What's this all about?

 6     Whether someone was there once or several times.  He didn't hurt me, but

 7     all of them who came had the same goal.  It was their task.  They had

 8     their respective duties, and they performed them in the same way.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, if you have followed the discussion,

10     the issue that has arisen - and I'm sorry for taking over this - is

11     whether Mr. Stojan Zupljanin visited Manjaca in his official capacity as

12     head of the police in Banja Luka.  He may -- please, Mr. Witness, hear me

13     out.

14             He may have visited the Manjaca camp in a purely private capacity

15     because he wanted to meet up with somebody he knew there, yet he might

16     also have visited the camp in his official capacity, in which case it is

17     relevant for the Chamber to know whether during his visit he addressed

18     some of the detainees.  This is the issue.  It's not whether he visited

19     Manjaca once or twice.  The issue is:  When he visited, did he address

20     the detainees in a speech.

21             Now, you said that you were not in the building but you saw him

22     come out and you also testified that you -- while he was in there, you

23     heard the detainees applaud.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is this your testimony today, that you heard

Page 956

 1     him -- that you heard the detainees applaud him while he was in there and

 2     then you saw him come out from that building?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he left the building.  The

 4     applauding happened before, not when he was already outside.  I'm

 5     surprised by this behaviour, that I'm now being asked whether he was

 6     there in his official capacity as if I was a manager or director there.

 7     And then as if I could tell you if he was there privately or --

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, we are not expecting you to have an

 9     opinion about whether he was there in one or the other capacity.  The

10     only thing we are interested in is to hear what you observed and what you

11     saw and what you heard.  That is the only thing that we are asking you to

12     give to us.  And then we will make the conclusions.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said already, and I'm

14     surprised that I'm being asked one in the same thing over and over again.

15     I saw him when he came out, but I didn't see him enter another building

16     or at the time of the applause inside.  This is such a blamage.  I have

17     never seen this before.  I saw lots of things but nothing anything like

18     this.  This is the truth.  I don't know why he came privately or

19     officially.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That's fine.  Thank you very much.  I think this

21     concludes the issue.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Sabanovic, one last question on a different topic.  Have a

24     look at your statement.  Page 10, the last paragraph.  In that paragraph,

25     which spills over to the next page, you describe how a lawyer came to see

Page 957

 1     you telling you that he was a JNA investigator.  Do you see that part?

 2        A.   He was there, the investigator.

 3        Q.   And he told you that in Sanski Most an indictment was issued

 4     against you?  This is what it says; you can read it for yourself.

 5        A.   I don't have to read it.  I spent several hours writing a

 6     statement but what is in there is irrelevant.

 7        Q.   And on the next page it says that he told you that the third

 8     count in the indictment was that:

 9             "I plotted against the Serb people by issuing certificates

10     which" --

11        A.   That is a lie.  I can no longer keep this up.

12        Q.   This is in your statement, that he told you.

13        A.   Somebody type wrote this.  I wrote on paper with a pencil.

14        Q.   You yourself described this event.

15        A.   I didn't say this to anyone.  I hear this for the first time.

16        Q.   This is the statement given by you received from the OTP?

17        A.   I don't know what it's all about.  I never said so, and I never

18     heard this from anyone.

19        Q.   So the entire statement is incorrect or just that part?

20        A.   Maybe this part, maybe all of this.  I didn't read all of it, but

21     this part is incorrect, that I said that I transgressed against the Serb

22     people.

23             There was a Serb woman and a child and two of mine even have no

24     Muslim names, Ernest, Oliver, and Alan, so who is what?  Who is prettier

25     than the other?  And see what you are using.

Page 958

 1        Q.   Did the investigating magistrate ask you anything about these

 2     medical certificates?

 3        A.   This was no magistrate.  He was an interrogator.

 4        Q.   In any case, did he ask you about it?

 5        A.   About what?

 6        Q.   About the medical certificates.

 7        A.   Not a word, he told me to sit and write about what I know.  He

 8     asked me of Faik Biscevic who had recently passed away.  He was also in

 9     Manjaca and his two sons were killed.  He asked me to write about that.

10     I used a pencil and I did so.  And this one didn't even come to see me.

11        Q.   So this part of your statement is incorrect?

12        A.   It is incorrect, and this is not my statement.  I've never heard

13     of this.  You are quite a disagreeable people.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps we could clarify exactly which part of the

15     statement we are talking about here.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 11, paragraph 1, in the B/C/S.

17     Please bear with me, I'll tell you where it is in the English version.

18     Page 10 in the English.  The last paragraph.

19        Q.   So in principle, the statement before you is not what you told

20     the Prosecutor?

21        A.   This was not what I said.  This was not copied.  I wrote in

22     pencil and handed it over.  It was some -- at some 2.00 a.m.  I finished

23     it, got in, and handed it over to him.  We didn't exchange a word.  He

24     didn't ask me about anyone, and he no longer mentioned Faik Biscevic.  As

25     for what you are saying, no one asked me about this ever, and I've never

Page 959

 1     said anything of the sort.

 2        Q.   And you never mentioned that topic to the Prosecutor?

 3        A.   I don't know if I did.  If they asked me, I may have.  I wasn't

 4     there to volunteer information.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  I think the witness might be at cross purposes.

 6     Your Honours, the statement that my learned friend is asking him to

 7     comment on, my understanding is the statement he made to the

 8     Office of the Prosecutor.  I think the witness may have confused the

 9     issue because he made a prior statement to some other authorities that

10     were interrogating him.  Perhaps my friend could clarify that for the

11     record.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Sir, the part I read out from the statement is something that you

14     told the Prosecutor when describing that particular event and your

15     encounter with the interrogator, this description of yours in the

16     statement.

17        A.   The portion you mentioned is something I wasn't aware of, and I

18     can't believe someone could put this together so nicely.  Where is the

19     inspiration from?

20        Q.   So that part of the statement is not what you told the

21     Prosecutor?

22        A.   I never said anything of the sort.  I don't want to discuss this

23     anymore.  You are younger than me, and I'm still surprised by your

24     behaviour.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

Page 960

 1     further questions of this witness.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination?

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, sir.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. Pidwell:

 5        Q.   I would just like to clarify, sir, going on from my learned

 6     friend's questioning which he has just finished, the portion of the

 7     statement that he was asking you to consider, page 10, the last paragraph

 8     of the English version of your statement dated the 1st and

 9     2nd of December, 2002.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  I wonder if we could have -- someone could assist

11     me with the relevant B/C/S portion and have that up on the screen.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's the last paragraph on page number 10 and the

13     first paragraph on page number 11.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  That is of the B/C/S?  And that's the English as

15     well.

16        Q.   Sir, I'm going to read to you the relevant paragraph, page 10,

17     the last paragraph from the statement:

18             "The following day the investigator told me that I would be

19     brought to the military court and liquidated once the war was over.  This

20     was also the first day that I had to examine all prisoners coming to the

21     camp.  The MPs came again and said I had to note all the injuries of the

22     new prisoners.  Among the new arrivals that day, there were 15 to 20 who

23     were from Sanski Most."

24             Perhaps if we could pause there and if you could confirm whether

25     you agree with the contents of that portion of your statement.

Page 961

 1        A.   I was constantly being threatened of being liquidated, but never

 2     in such words as I find here.  I was frequently threatened.  I will never

 3     forget that the policeman at 1.00 in the morning told me that they had

 4     checked the people from Kotor Varos and at 12.30 or 1.00 a.m. he told me

 5     that the next day I would be butchered.  Luckily for me, he was

 6     transferred to Gradacac.  That's what I was told.

 7        Q.   And you recall speaking with the investigator, who was mentioned

 8     in this paragraph of your statement?

 9        A.   I did talk but about nothing much.  And as for this that I said

10     that he asked me about an inmate who was there, his name was

11     Faik Biscevic, it was nothing particular.  He went outside, and I was

12     sitting there writing down with a pencil who was doing what, but I don't

13     know that he talked with him.

14        Q.   The balance of that paragraph in your statement, and I'm, with

15     Your Honours's position going to summarise, talks about a person coming

16     to Manjaca who was a former policeman in Sanski Most who you knew and you

17     examined and who subsequently died.  Do you recall that?

18        A.   He came when he was well.  I know that there was a police officer

19     in that group in July when 19 or 21 dead people were brought in, so I saw

20     them in the truck, in the transporter who were taken back.  Josip Mlinar

21     was there; he was dead.  I don't know that he told me anything, because

22     he was dead.  And as for this inspector, I don't know.  I mean, that

23     wasn't then, and this person wasn't dead.

24        Q.   The next paragraph of your statement, which my friend was asking

25     you about, top of page 11 talks about you signing the death certificate.

Page 962

 1        A.   This is not my statement.  Yes.

 2        Q.   Sir, do you recall being interviewed by members of the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor in -- on the 1st and 2nd of December, 2001; and

 4     the 14th, 17th, and 19th February -- 2000; and the 14th, 17th, and 19th

 5     of February, 2001?

 6        A.   Probably I did.

 7        Q.   And do you recall being given the opportunity to read the

 8     statement in a language that you understand and then signing the

 9     statement in the presence of a third person; do you recall that?

10        A.   This is not my statement.  Perhaps there are parts which are, but

11     this is not my statement.  I didn't say that I had done something wrong

12     against the Serbian people, that I had issued false permits.  I'm not a

13     bad person.  And, I mean, I don't know what is the logic?  That

14     investigator was quite correct.  He gave me a piece of paper and a pencil

15     and I was writing on it, and then I gave it back to him.  I don't know

16     who did what to that later, who wrote on it.

17             MR. PANTELIC:  Excuse me, just for interruption.  So, just for

18     the record, Your Honours, that ERN number is 0200-4435 was completely

19     denied by this witness, just for the record.  Thank you.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm not sure that's an accurate reflection of the

21     evidence that's come out, and I'm seeking to clarify this at this

22     juncture.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, at what point would he have completely

24     denied it?

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, that's what just he said, so I just

Page 963

 1     want to be a recorded this, that the statement dated

 2     1st, 2nd December, 2000; and 14, 17, 19 February, 2001, was not his

 3     statement.  Simply as that, Your Honour.  Just for the record.  Because

 4     he just stated it.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  You mean he has only just stated that, not on some

 6     previous occasion?

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  No, no, this one.  This statement that's in front

 8     of this witness.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, it's late.  The witness is probably

10     tired as we all are, concentration tends to wain.  But generally, you are

11     re-examining your witness.  And correct me, but isn't this document

12     already in as an exhibit?  So I am not sure I see the path that you are

13     taking with re-examining him on what I suppose, according to your case,

14     is a previous consistent statement.  How does it assist the Chamber?

15             MS. PIDWELL:  Sir, to clarify, this statement is not an exhibit.

16     The exhibit that's tendered for this witness is his prior testimony in

17     the Brdjanin case.  Your Honours don't have the benefit of having this as

18     informal evidence.  My concern is that a bald statement by my learned

19     friend Mr. Pantelic that he has completely changed his story, so to

20     speak, which, I think, is what he's wanting you to take away from this is

21     not a true representation of what has come from this witness today.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Can you say assist me.  How do we get to this in

23     re-examination?

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Because the last line of questioning from

25     Mr. Pantelic's team was about the last paragraph in page 11 of this

Page 964

 1     statement where it was purportedly a comment by my -- by the witness that

 2     he was -- that he took issue with.  And in explaining that, he seems to

 3     have, it seems to have expanded to him dismissing the entire statement.

 4             I'm happy to leave it there, sir.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  I was about to say that.  The point we are at is

 6     asked and answered.  Can you take it any further?

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  Because the statement is not part of the evidence,

 8     and the evidence is his prior statement in the Brdjanin case, I'm happy

 9     to leave it there, sir.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

11             MS. PIDWELL:

12        Q.   I only have one other area that I want to cover with this witness

13     in re-examination, and that is, you were asked, sir, in cross-examination

14     about the guards at the detention facility or the hall, sports hall,

15     Hasan Kikic and you described them as military police.  Now, could you

16     please explain to the Chamber what you mean by that term?

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Pidwell --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is that it's called the

19     military police.  I'm not a military person.  I don't follow anything

20     about the army or the military.  All I know is that whoever entered of

21     them, they said they were in the military police.

22             As for the uniforms, whether they wore this or that uniform, it

23     wasn't some kind of already established Serbian Republic of Krajina, but

24     that's what they were fighting for.  There were no problems, it was just

25     one army fighting the two other people who were victims of that.  All

Page 965

 1     they asked me was -- I mean, asking me whether this colour of uniform or

 2     that colour of uniform, is this a military police or not, everybody then

 3     was wearing some kind of military uniform.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, nobody is asking you whether this

 5     colour or that colour, is that kind of uniform or that kind of uniform.

 6     The only thing that you could have observed is the colour of the uniform.

 7     In that gym, was it a blue one or was it not a blue one, or don't you

 8     know?  That's the only thing.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to say that I wasn't

10     interested.  I wasn't allowed to look at people.  What sort of a colour

11     are you wearing?  Are you coming here for a feast?  Are you getting

12     married?  I cannot understand the way you are behaving towards me.

13     I simply hate hate, and lies.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  I have no further questions, thank you, sirs.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Well, thank you for attending.  It's been a long

16     day.  We thank you for your assistance, and we wish you a safe journey

17     back to your home.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't difficult for me.  I am

19     not tired.  I don't feel sorry, but thank you.  We really need to stick

20     to what sort of a situation it was.  Perhaps there was some misstatements

21     and mistakes in speech, but I apologise.  Nobody insulted me today

22     either, but I'm just not capable of listening to anything.  But thank you

23     all of you here, I wish you much luck in your further work and

24     investigations.  I'm losing when I'm coming here.  I work.  So when I'm

25     not working, I lose out.  I am privately employed.  I work in a private

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 1     clinic.  Every day that I miss work, I lose 300 Euros.  But I'm not sorry

 2     about that, it's just that I'm sorry if I come and hear something here

 3     that was not.  But thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You are released.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, in the six minutes remaining.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Can we deal with your administrative issue.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  It concerns scheduling regarding the Prosecution's

10     proposed expert witness Ms. Hanson, expert on Crisis Staffs.  There was

11     some recent disclosure of a transcript of testimony that she made in the

12     state court proceeding in Bosnia in January of this year, and in light of

13     that, we thought there would be some opposition from the Defence about

14     the timing of her appearance.  I think I'm stating it correctly, my

15     understanding is that they are agreeable with her attending Friday for

16     direct examination, but then they would ask that her cross-examination be

17     put off until later the following week after we've done the videolink

18     witness that's scheduled.  And I think he was currently scheduled for

19     Tuesday, we'd like to move him up to Monday, if that's possible.  And do

20     him on Monday and Tuesday and have Ms. Hanson follow that.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If that's possible, that's fine.  Does the

22     Defence agree?

23             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE HALL:  I understand the Defence agrees and the Registry has

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 1     confirmed that it's technically possible.  So we'll proceed thus.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you very much.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Before we take the adjournment, is there anything

 4     else?

 5             Thank you.  We resume tomorrow afternoon at 2.15 in Courtroom I.

 6     I am given to understand that there may be a change on Thursday, but by

 7     tomorrow's adjournment, the Chamber would certainly be in a position to

 8     confirm to you at what time on Thursday and Friday we will resume.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

11                           October, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.