Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 968

 1                           Wednesday, 7 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           -- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon.  Counsel and the parties would be

 8     aware that the Chamber insists on punctuality.  It's a matter both of

 9     courtesy and a matter of efficiency, and -- but notwithstanding the

10     desirability of that, from time to time problems do arise, and in this

11     case the Chamber must apologise for the inconvenience to counsel and the

12     parties for taking the bench a little late.

13             Thank you.  Yes, may I have the -- I was about to ask for the

14     appearances, but Ms. Korner, you were on your feet.  Were you about to

15     say something?

16             MS. KORNER:  I was about to announce the appearances.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  It's Joanna Korner,

19     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution today.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Appearing for

21     Stanisic Defence Slobodan Zecevic, Mr. Slobodan Cvijetic to my right and

22     then our case manager Ms. Tatjana Savic.  Thank you.

23             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Zupljanin Defence:

24     Igor Pantelic, Mr. Dragan Krgovic, Mr. Brent Hicks, and Mr. Eric Tully.

25     Thank you.

Page 969

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So noted.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, there's one matter I need to raise

 3     before the witness comes into court, which relates to the evidence of the

 4     witness.  The second matter is I believe Your Honours have been informed

 5     about the problem that has arisen with the witness next week through

 6     VWS's contact with the witness.  I'm not sure how it's going to be

 7     resolved at the moment, but it may cause yet again, I'm afraid, a

 8     possible gap.  Can I say we were unaware of the fact that he couldn't

 9     travel, apparently.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  150?

11             MS. KORNER:  I believe so.  It's the one that VWS contacted

12     Ms. Featherstone about -- Mrs. Featherstone.

13             Your Honours, then in relation to the next witness, he's the

14     first witness that falls into the category that I said something about my

15     opening; namely, he is connected with the events that happened in Kotor

16     Varos, if I can put it that way, from the side of the defendants,

17     accused.

18             Your Honours, it's a matter for Your Honours, but I feel I ought

19     to remind Your Honours of Rule 90(E).  I should tell Your Honours that he

20     was interviewed on two occasion by the Office of the Prosecutor as a

21     suspect.  So he was given his rights not to answer questions.  He did

22     answer questions then, but that was a right that was given to him at the

23     time.  So as I say, I think it's really a matter for Your Honours to make

24     the decision as to whether any warning needs to be given and, if so, at

25     what stage, but I thought I'd better remind Your Honours of that.

Page 970

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Does he fall under the category of witnesses

 2     covered by Rule 90 -- yes, he does.

 3             MS. KORNER:  He's Rule 90(E).

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 5             MS. KORNER:  He comes or it was thought -- or it's a rather odd

 6     rule now as -- under the definition of a suspect in Rule 2.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, so he does not require any protective

 9     measures, and so, Your Honours, the next witness is Nedjelko Djekanovic.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner and Counsels, I would like to make a

11     request to the parties in relation to the witness statements.  Yesterday

12     there was reference across the courtroom to the statements made or given

13     by the previous witness, and Defence counsels raised at several occasions

14     the statements and confronted the earlier statements to the witness

15     directly, and the Prosecution in return sought also to rebut the evidence

16     offered by the witness in response to the challenge made by the Defence

17     counsels arising out of his earlier statement.

18             For this reason, I would like to ask the parties to in the future

19     to submit also the earlier statements to the Chamber as they're being

20     exchanged to the other party.

21             MS. KORNER:  Is that in relation -- in relation just to the

22     92 ter witnesses or to viva voce witnesses?

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm fully aware of the controversial aspect of

24     this request, but my request would be for both, both for viva voce and

25     for 92 ter witnesses.

Page 971

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, may I say in my last trial here

 2     certainly the Judges had copies particularly of these interviews.  I

 3     think we're perfectly prepared to supply them.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mrs. Korner.  Thank you, Counsels.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  At yesterday's adjournment counsel would recall that

 6     I had indicated there was a possibility of us sitting on Thursday and

 7     Friday in the mornings.  We can now confirm that we would be sitting

 8     tomorrow morning and Friday morning, and I'm giving this early heads-up

 9     so that counsel can arrange their affairs accordingly.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11                           WITNESS:  NEDJELKO DJEKANOVIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Mr. President, if I may please address the Chamber

16     in relation to your announcement of times of sitting for tomorrow.  I

17     really kindly ask you.  This is a very unique situation that we have here

18     today given the importance of this witness for the Defence, and then if

19     possible in future if we have similar situation then to have possibility

20     to -- not to jump from the evening session to the morning, because we

21     have to prepare cross-examination, to check many documents.  I agree

22     ruling is absolutely accepted, but just to have in mind that in specific

23     situation when we have very serious questions -- sorry, witnesses for the

24     Defence that that should be taken in mind.

25             Thank you so much in advance.  Thank you.

Page 972

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

 2             Good afternoon, sir.  Thank you for your appearance here this

 3     afternoon.  The -- what is your name?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Nedjelko Djekanovic.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  And your date of birth?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The 15th of November, 1958.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  And -- and what is your ethnicity, sir?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm a Serb.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Have you testified previously in this -- in these

10     proceedings, the proceedings of this Tribunal?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Not before this Tribunal but

12     before some other court organs.

13             JUDGE HALL:  [Previous translation continues] ... [overlapping

14     speakers] ... Sorry, my microphone may have been off.  What is your

15     profession or occupation, sir?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm a mechanical engineer.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             Ms. Korner, you may proceed.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

20                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

21        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, let me start by setting the background to how you

25     come to be here as a witness.  I think it's right that you were

Page 973

 1     interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor on two occasions.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The first on the 12th of June of 2003.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And secondly, on the 25th of March of this year.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Before speaking to the Office of the Prosecutor in March of this

 8     year, I think it's right that you spoke to or had an interview with the

 9     Defence for Stojan Zupljanin in this case, in particular Mr. Pantelic; is

10     that right?

11        A.   Yes, we spoke briefly.

12        Q.   And you've had an opportunity to speak to the Defence since your

13     arrival in The Hague.  Can I ask, did you speak to them last night or

14     this morning?

15        A.   We met last night over a cup of coffee.

16        Q.   All right.  And finally, I think it's right that you are

17     testifying here not voluntarily but because a summons was issued by this

18     court which you are obeying.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You've been asked for your occupation presently.  Can I deal with

21     your past occupations.  I think at the time of the multi-party elections

22     in 1990, were you a member of the SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party?

23        A.   Yes, I was a member of the SDS then as I am now.

24        Q.   And as a member of that party, did you stand for election to the

25     Assembly of, as it was then, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

Page 974

 1     Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Yes.  I was a candidate for the municipal assembly of the

 3     Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I won at the first multi-party

 4     elections, and I became a deputy representing the municipality of Kotor

 5     Varos.

 6        Q.   All right.  So is that what's called the Chamber of the

 7     Municipalities of the Assembly?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you were elected, is this right, for -- to the Municipal

10     Assembly of Kotor Varos?

11        A.   Yes.  I was also a deputy to the Municipal Assembly of Kotor

12     Varos.

13        Q.   Right.  I want to ask you, please, a little bit, first of all,

14     about Kotor Varos.  Firstly, I think it was pretty evenly ethnically

15     divided; is that right?

16        A.   Kotor Varos municipality had around 36.000 inhabitants.

17     According to the census of 1991, Serbs comprised over 36 per cent of that

18     population, nearly 14.000.  Muslims had slightly over 10.000 inhabitants,

19     and Croats were somewhat less, 9.000 plus.  In such an ethnic make-up

20     when everyone voted for the Assembly as an SDS representative and a Serb,

21     I won in the second round of elections.

22        Q.   Dealing with what happened after those elections as regards

23     positions in the Assembly and elsewhere, did Ante (sic) Mandic of the

24     HDZ, the Croat party, become the president of the Municipal Assembly?

25        A.   Yes.  Anto Mandic did become the president of the Municipal

Page 975

 1     Assembly of Kotor Varos, but after an agreement had been reached with the

 2     SDS and at the level of the three parties' leadership, it was agreed that

 3     at local levels the party which received the most votes can appoint their

 4     own person at -- at the position of the Municipal Assembly president.  In

 5     Kotor Varos the SDS was that party, and pursuant to the agreement we

 6     could appoint the Assembly president.

 7             In agreement with the HDZ, we agreed that they appoint a person

 8     to that position.  The person was Anto Mandic.  We as the SDS took the

 9     second position that had originally been allocated to the HDZ, to the

10     Croats, that is to say, and that person was supposed to be the deputy

11     president Assembly.

12        Q.   Right.  You, however, did you not, took the position of chairman

13     of the Executive Committee of the Assembly; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And as you've pointed out because you in fact got more votes in

16     the election, you could have had the Presidency of the Municipal

17     Assembly.  Why did you decide to take the Executive Committee?

18        A.   We couldn't have both the president of the Assembly and the

19     President of the Executive Board.  We were allowed to appoint a person to

20     the post of the Presidency of the Municipal Assembly, but in agreement

21     with the Croats we swapped the two places, and actually it was Momcilo

22     Komljenovic who came President of the Executive Board, not myself.  The

23     reasons were that we were of the opinion, politically speaking, that it

24     was favourable for us to have a President of the Executive Board from

25     amongst our ranks, because that person was in charge of many programmes

Page 976

 1     such as development in Kotor Varos.  Such programmes were mainly

 2     discussed at the Executive Board, and that is why we decided to opt for

 3     that position.  That decision was not unanimously agreed upon in -- by

 4     the SDS.  It was simply a majority vote that decided.

 5        Q.   All right.  In the light of the composition of the -- of the

 6     three parties, which I think reflected the -- as it were, the ethnic

 7     make-up, did the SDS have an absolute majority in the Assembly?

 8        A.   No.  No party had an absolute majority.  The SDS had only a

 9     relative majority.

10        Q.   So it follows from that that if the SDS and the HDZ decided to

11     band together, they could out-vote the SDS; is that right?

12        A.   If we are to look into the statute and decisions of the Municipal

13     Assembly of Kotor Varos, such options were not included.  But if we go by

14     the simple number of votes, then they could.

15        Q.   Then as far as the SDS is concerned, were you in fact president

16     of the municipal SDS board in Kotor Varos?

17        A.   Not at the time of the multi-party elections but shortly

18     afterwards.  I believe as of February or January.  I cannot recall

19     precisely.  It was then that I took charge of the SDS board in Kotor

20     Varos.  Later on, I was also president of the municipal SDS board of the

21     Kotor Varos as well as several -- I took up several other positions in

22     the party.

23        Q.   All right.  Did that Presidency within the Municipal Board give

24     you a seat on the Regional Board of the SDS based in Banja Luka?

25        A.   I do not recall whether automatically all municipal SDS

Page 977

 1     presidents became members of the Regional Board.  I tend not to think

 2     that way, but in any case, I frequently participated at Regional Board

 3     meetings of the SDS, including some other party members from Kotor Varos.

 4        Q.   And was that Regional Board presided over by somebody called

 5     Dr. Vukic?

 6        A.   Chronologically speaking, I cannot recall the persons who

 7     occupied that position.  There were several of them, and I don't know in

 8     what term they came, but I think for a while Dr. Vukic was the president

 9     of the SDS Regional Board.

10        Q.   Now, at this stage in 1991, were you a member of the Main Board

11     of the SDS?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you later become a member of the Main Board?

14        A.   I became a member of the Main Board of the party in 1996, 1997,

15     or 1998.  At any case, during that period and not during the period that

16     you are asking me about.

17        Q.   I want to ask you in a moment a few more questions about how the

18     structure of the SDS worked, but can I ask you now to look at some

19     photographs and maps which relate to Kotor Varos, and let's deal with

20     that at this stage.

21             First of all, could you have a look at a map which shows the very

22     ethnic breakdown, which is 65 ter number 10117.

23             I think you had a opportunity to look at this yesterday when you

24     went through a bundle of documents.  Can you just tell us, we can see

25     there the, as it were, the majority nationality is shown for each of

Page 978

 1     these villages.  Do you accept that's an accurate map?

 2        A.   Could we please zoom in?  Yes, for the most part.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 4        A.   For the most part it is correct.

 5        Q.   Well, do you want to suggest that there's -- if you think there

 6     are some aspects which are not correct, then do tell us, sir.

 7        A.   You cannot depict such a diverse ethnic make-up on a single map

 8     in Kotor Varos.  There were villages which were mixed, and yet here they

 9     are shown as single ethnicity villages, although there was significant

10     populations of other ethnicities there.

11             Generally speaking, this was so.  That is not in dispute.  The

12     town of Kotor Varos itself had a Serb majority.

13        Q.   Yes.  As I say, sir, I accept entirely that even in villages

14     which are marked as Muslim ones there were other ethnicities living

15     there.

16             Actually, I don't need to bother about the next map.  Could you

17     have a look, please, at --

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, could I -- I'm not sure we've made

19     this an exhibit.  No, we haven't.  Could I ask that be exhibited.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Entered -- marked and entered.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P65, Your Honours.

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   Next, can I ask that you have a look, please, at 65 ter number

24     03158.

25             Now, sir, you had a chance to look at this yesterday, and indeed

Page 979

 1     I think you -- from the original one that you looked at, you made some

 2     corrections because you said that the sawmill had been put in the wrong

 3     place.  Can you confirm now that the photographs of the various buildings

 4     are shown in the right place on the map?

 5        A.   It seems to me that the SJB building, that is to say the police

 6     building, is not in the proper location.  The hospital is more or less

 7     positioned well.  Between the Catholic church and the hospital it is

 8     there that the police building should be.  On a map we saw yesterday, we

 9     can see that clearly, and I believe we marked it as such.

10             The last facility on the right-hand side, although I don't have

11     translation here, is something that I'm not aware of.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, it's said to be the Kotor Varos prison, or a

13     building that was used as a prison.

14        A.   That is possible, next to the court.  In terms of physical

15     location this could be it, yes.

16        Q.   So, can I -- you say that the SJB building should be between

17     what, the hospital -- the Catholic church and the --

18        A.   Yes.  It is now and it was so.  It's still in the same location.

19        Q.   Okay.  So it should be between the Catholic church and where the

20     hospital is shown, but on the main road; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, on the main road.  Somewhat closer to the hospital than to

22     the Catholic church.

23        Q.   All right.  And can you just, because it's not indicated here,

24     could you tell us where the municipal building was, where the Municipal

25     Assembly sat?

Page 980

 1        A.   The Municipal Assembly building is further away from the court

 2     and the prison you marked here.  It is further down on this map by a few

 3     hundred metres.

 4        Q.   Do you mean it's not shown on the map at all?

 5        A.   Yeah, that's right.  Actually, it cannot be placed here on this

 6     part of the map that we can see.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So it's further down from where we've indicated the

 8     prison.  That's what you're saying, is it?

 9        A.   Yes, a bit lower.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, do you think the witness can actually

11     mark with a pencil.

12             MS. KORNER:  No, I don't.  Can he?  I have no idea.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think so.  It would be useful to see exactly

14     where the prison is.

15             MS. KORNER:  Apparently he can mark on the board.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Could you tell us by

18     putting a small circle and a "P" where the prison is according to your --

19     to your observation.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in the correct place, the

21     prison.  It would be more or less here.  The prison is in the correct

22     position, because I determined the location of the municipality on the

23     basis of the location of the prison.  So here I think it is in the proper

24     place.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And the SJB building?

Page 981

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  [Marks]

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  And could you put a small "P" to

 3     indicate this is the -- sorry, SJB, could you just write "SJB" next to

 4     it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   All right.  Now -- sorry.  The distance between the SJB building

 9     and the municipal building was how much, because maps can sometimes be

10     deceptive.

11        A.   In my estimate it would be some 800 metres.  Perhaps it could be

12     a hundred metres up or down, but it's about 800 metres away.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  That's -- that's all I'm going to ask

14     you.  I may ask you to look at some photographs at some other stage,

15     because we've got some new photographs.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Excuse me.  While we're on the same topic, maybe

17     it would be appropriate the witness mark sawmill, because I think he

18     mentioned that it was not the right position on the map so maybe we could

19     clarify that.

20             MS. KORNER:  No, this is the corrected version.  He mentioned

21     that yesterday and we corrected it.  I'll get --

22             MR. PANTELIC:  Okay, sorry.

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   Sir, could you confirm that is where the sawmill is -- was, in

25     certainly 1992?

Page 982

 1        A.   It's more or less in the same place.  The sawmill was opposite

 2     from the Catholic church, across the street from the Catholic church.  To

 3     the right side on the exit road from Kotor Varos towards Banja Luka was

 4     the Catholic church, and then on the opposite side of the road is the

 5     sawmill.

 6        Q.   All right.  So -- yes.  I think what you were being asked to

 7     confirm is that it's shown correctly on this map.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you wish --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you want to tender it?

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  [Microphone not activated]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P66, Your Honours.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, just one clarification, Your Honours.

14     In a previous case -- this is just one comment.  In a previous case, we

15     would have a problem with -- with the documents which were marked by the

16     witness, and they have been given an IT number in order to not to mix

17     with the original document which is tendered by the Prosecution, which,

18     for example, is a map of Kotor Varos, P66.  So I'm just suggesting that

19     anyway we just -- we just give it some -- some kind of indication that

20     this is a map which the witness has drawn upon.  Thank you very much.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, you are absolutely right, and I

23     guess the Court was simply not quick enough on its feet to -- to make an

24     observation about this.

25             In general terms, I think the Court would prefer not to have

Page 983

 1     pre-marked maps being presented in court unless it's for -- for other

 2     purpose, but in instances like this where the witness is being shown a

 3     map and could you please point out where this or that is, I think it's

 4     the safest to ask him to do so in court.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, just so I follow.  Sorry.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours, but still when the

 7     witness like in this case has marked the map in the court, it is my

 8     understanding of the e-court that the -- that the photo is taken of that

 9     particular document where there is his markings where -- which he just

10     shown to us like SJB.  There is a photo made and it's downloaded in a

11     memory.  That is my understanding.

12             So this document is somewhat different than the original P66

13     which was given by the OTP, and I -- and it is my understanding that such

14     documents where the witness marks them are given an IC number, IC number.

15     Well, that was -- that was the case in our previous case, and that was

16     the explanation we were given during the -- during the e-court training.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I'm just -- better

19     clarify this right now.  I overheard what you were discussing.  I'm

20     sorry, but it was heard over here.

21             Now, I understand our P66 is a marked map.  Okay.  The situation

22     might be the following:  One -- the witness which is -- which is proposed

23     by the Prosecution does not mark.  He recognises the map.  He says it's

24     okay.

25             Now, I call -- I call that particular document during my

Page 984

 1     cross-examination, and then I show him, let's say P66, and then he draws

 2     on the map.  So what -- and I ask that document to be tendered.  What are

 3     we going to do then?  I mean --

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, I think if you want somebody else to

 5     put another drawing on the original map, then you just call up the

 6     document and you ask your witness to put on it whatever he wants to put.

 7     So then that becomes a new Exhibit.

 8             P66 is now this map with this witness's marking.  The original

 9     map has not been tendered into evidence, and it doesn't need to be, for

10     all I know.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  But, Your Honours, please -- I beg you to bear with

12     me.  It might be the situation where the actual position of the CJB (sic)

13     might be an issue.  It might be an issue.  It might be the situation

14     where this witness will show where in his opinion or his recollection the

15     CJB was, and the other witness might say it was cross the river.  Now, if

16     I show the next witness which comes and he says the CJB was across the

17     river, of course it doesn't make sense that I show him the -- the map

18     which was marked by this witness.  It should be the original map we --

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Okay.  I think we're talking past each other.

20     The map as you see it on the screen now has not been tendered into

21     evidence.  It lies as a document that can be pulled up at any time in the

22     form and shape it has just now.

23             Now, if you have a witness and there is another witness and

24     there's disagreement about where the SJB building was, then you can

25     confront your witness with this witness's marking and you can tell him

Page 985

 1     that, you know, another witness claimed it was here.  Then you revert to

 2     the original map, and you ask your witness then to indicate where he

 3     thinks or she thinks the SJB building was, and then in the end we can sit

 4     with two maps.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  I just thought that

 6     it -- this, what I was proposing, was much simpler to deal with, but if

 7     Your Honours please.  Thank you very much.

 8             MS. KORNER:  As you know, I mean, this system is new to me since

 9     I was last here, but the way we dealt with it, and it seems sensible,

10     what we want exhibited is an original unmarked map so we can pull that up

11     at any time, and then our suggestion would have been that this is marked,

12     the map -- the copy that's being marked by this witness is P60, whatever

13     it is, .1.  So at least we know that's what it is and it reflects on the

14     transcript and it's quite simple, and I see both sides nodding.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  We fully agree with -- this is exactly what I was

16     talking about.  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We agree.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  To complete the confusion, we are now being

21     instructed or told or advised by the registry that this is -- what we

22     have just agreed on is in fact impractical.  The 65 ter exhibit that you

23     had showing the witness's pre-markings should remain as such.  It has not

24     been admitted into evidence, but it remains a 65 ter number.

25             Now, if anyone wishes to use the same map unmarked, that is to

Page 986

 1     say without the witness's pre-markings, which is to go back to the very

 2     original version of this document before the witness actually marked it

 3     out, then that should be given a 65 ter number so that the Defence can

 4     use the raw original version of the map for any subsequent purpose.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Right.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I still --

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  Got it now.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I was going to say perhaps, Your Honour, we

10     can try and sort this out maybe at the end of the session.

11        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Mr. Djekanovic, we'll leave for the moment

12     what Kotor Varos look like.  Can I ask you next about your knowledge of

13     the two accused.

14             Firstly, you told us you were a member of the Assembly, the

15     Chamber of Municipalities in the Socialist Republic of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Did you then subsequently become a deputy to the --

17     the Assembly, as it was then called, of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

18     and Herzegovina?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As such, did you ever meet Mico Stanisic?

21        A.   I met Mico Stanisic during the Assembly sessions.  We didn't have

22     any private or official contacts other than that.  I knew him as a man

23     who worked on the same tasks and in similar organs that I did, but we

24     didn't have any other contacts or things in common.

25        Q.   And which organs did he work on that -- that you did?  Or which

Page 987

 1     tasks, sorry, first of all?

 2        A.   He worked in the MUP organs.  I don't know what all the posts he

 3     had were.  I really cannot remember after all this time.  Many people and

 4     a lot of time has passed since then, so I don't know exactly which posts

 5     he was serving in.  I think for a time he was perhaps a minister as well.

 6        Q.   I'm just asking you about your answer.  "I knew him as a man who

 7     worked on the same tasks."  I was just asking you what tasks.

 8        A.   Members of the government and ministers attended the Assembly

 9     sessions of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   All right.  But you say you didn't have any private contacts

11     or -- or official contacts other than in the Assembly?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   All right.  Well, let's turn to Stojan Zupljanin.  When did you

14     first meet him?

15        A.   I met Stojan Zupljanin after the first multi-party elections in

16     1990.  That was the first time that I met him.  I didn't know him before

17     then.  It's true that Stojan is from our municipality, but he was a man

18     who worked in the MUP structures, and before he had worked in Banja Luka,

19     so I didn't have the opportunity to get to know him before.

20        Q.   And how did you come to meet him after the first multi-party

21     elections?

22        A.   We first met during the process of the elections during the

23     candidacy process for the chief of the CSB in Banja Luka.  That's when we

24     met.  And members of all the Municipal Boards from all the municipalities

25     put forward their candidate.  So we were happy that a person who is from

Page 988

 1     our municipality was also put forward as a candidate.  So he did have our

 2     support and the support of other municipalities for the post of chief of

 3     the public security centre in Banja Luka, the CSB in Banja Luka.

 4        Q.   All right.  So you were supporting him as chief of the CSB.  What

 5     qualities, in your view, did he possess to become chief of the CSB?

 6        A.   I wasn't the only one who offered my support.  He had the support

 7     of the entire party in the Kotor Varos region, all the people from our

 8     party from Kotor Varos.  To tell the truth, we didn't even discuss any

 9     abilities or at the time, at any structure level, not just within the SDS

10     but within any political party, the criteria was not based on abilities

11     or aptitude.  It was just the time that had dictated that certain people

12     be elected to certain positions.  Ultimately we were there from the

13     beginning, and he was working on these police jobs anyway, so it was

14     natural that he was an educated man.  He had worked through those

15     structures and was familiar with them.

16        Q.   All right.  But you said that a number of Municipal Boards were

17     putting forward candidates for this position.  So you voted for him, is

18     that what you're saying, simply because he came from Kotor Varos?

19        A.   One of the main reasons was that he was our candidate, just like

20     others put other candidates forward because they were closer to them,

21     although there were some other reasons too.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, what were the other reasons?

23        A.   Oh, I said that there were no other reasons --

24        Q.   No other reasons.

25        A.   -- due to which we --

Page 989

 1        Q.   All right.  Between that election which I think was May of 1991

 2     and June of 1992, how often did you see Stojan Zupljanin?

 3        A.   Now after so much time has passed I cannot really say how

 4     frequently we saw each other.  I mean, we did see each other.  We did run

 5     into each other, but I really couldn't say how often that was.  Just by

 6     the nature of our work.  There was no need for us to really meet, but we

 7     did meet often during 1992.

 8        Q.   All right.  Well, I'm going to deal with some of the events where

 9     you came across him in a moment.

10             Can I next ask you, as I said I would, about SDS and their

11     policies.  Who formulated the policies for the S --

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm sorry, just one correction for the transcript.

13     The witness just said "we didn't met often during 1992," and the

14     transcript, page 22, line 4, it says "we did met."

15             MS. KORNER:  But that's what I heard over the translation as

16     well.

17        Q.   Sir, I'll repeat the question.  Between the elections and -- the

18     election of Stojan Zupljanin as chief of the CSB and June of 1992, did

19     you say that you met him often in 1992 or not often?

20        A.   Not often.  It was the nature of our work that we didn't really

21     need to meet often.  We were not working on the same tasks.

22        Q.   All right.  Well, then I'll come back to the SDS.  I was asking

23     you, please, who formulated SDS policy?

24        A.   Could you be a bit more specific, please?

25        Q.   Yes.  Who was it -- you've told us about a Main Board, a Regional

Page 990

 1     Board, and the Municipal Boards of the SDS.  If there was a policy to be

 2     followed, who would decide what that policy was?  Would it be the Main

 3     Board or the Regional Board or the Municipal Board?

 4        A.   Depending on the level.  The policy and the procedure of adopting

 5     decisions is regulated by the statute of the party, so every level of the

 6     party had its own statute.  The municipal, regional, and the republican

 7     structures or the SDS top leadership had those.  So depending on the

 8     level, the policy of the party was adopted pursuant to the statutory

 9     norms at the party organs.  And pursuant to who had lesser or a greater

10     influence in the adoption of these decisions.

11        Q.   All right.  Well, let's -- let's start with the stop.  If the

12     Main Board of the SDS made a decision, was it the obligation under the

13     statute for that decision to be put into effect by the Regional Board and

14     then the Municipal Board?

15        A.   If possible, yes, but in many cases there were many exceptions

16     where literally some decision which was of a general nature could not be

17     applied at all levels and in all areas.  There was some instances like

18     that in our region of Kotor Varos as well.

19        Q.   All right.  Well, perhaps you can just to illustrate give us one

20     example of where the Main Board made the decision which you couldn't put

21     into effect in the Kotor Varos region.

22        A.   The first decision was the election of the president of the

23     municipality.  The position of the negotiating team of the SDS that

24     reached an agreement with the SDA and the HDZ, according to the majority

25     votes, was not implemented.  There was a different decision that was

Page 991

 1     actually implemented.  Our position was the one that took prevalence.

 2             There was another item where the three national parties were

 3     deadlocked, and we could not find a solution on this matter, so we had to

 4     negotiate in Sarajevo and make new negotiations and look for new

 5     resolutions at a higher level, even split up certain departments in order

 6     to satisfy all these needs, and this is how we resolved that particular

 7     matter.  Usually it just depended from case to case how this was done.

 8        Q.   All right.  But you're saying here, are you - I just want to make

 9     sure that we've all understood - that you couldn't -- when you were

10     deadlocked in your municipality, you had to go back to Sarajevo, to the

11     main boards of all three parties to renegotiate.  Is that what you're

12     saying?  I just want to make sure we've understood this.

13        A.   No.  We didn't have to go, but the common mutual agreement at the

14     level of the municipality was to try to restructure the composition of

15     power and in that way try to achieve a solution.

16        Q.   All right.  Well, I think we're slightly drifting away.  So

17     you're saying there were two -- at least two matters --

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have an intervention in the transcript.  I

19     believe the witness said that they have reached the common mutual

20     agreement at the level of municipality to ask the three parties in

21     Sarajevo to -- to deal with this situation.

22             MS. KORNER:  Well, yes, that's what I understood him to be -- to

23     be saying as well.

24        Q.   And that is what you're saying, is it, sir?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 992

 1        Q.   Okay.  So does it come to this:  You had a certain amount of

 2     autonomy within the Municipal Board, but for major matters you had to go

 3     back to the Main Board in Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Each Municipal Board had a rather comprehensive autonomy in its

 5     work, as well as the understanding on the part of the party leadership.

 6     The situation on the ground was quite specific, and not all principles

 7     could be applied across the board in all municipalities.  There were many

 8     elements which required separate approaches, and for such problems there

 9     was always understanding for in the Main Board of the party.  And in

10     several other instances and periods, you can see for yourself that the

11     decisions made by the local party boards were those that were later

12     adopted.

13             I don't think I can say that there were tensions or conflicts

14     along those lines.  In any case, the Main Board always took into account

15     local opinions even though such opinions may have been contrary to the

16     policies of the party or the opinions of those in the leadership.

17        Q.   Well, you say it took into account local opinion.  Are you saying

18     that as a result of local opinion, the decision, if it was -- I'm sorry.

19     If it was contrary to a policy, then the policy would be changed?

20        A.   At the local level there were no key or important decisions which

21     would deviate significantly from the policy of the party.  But on the

22     other hand, the policy did not strictly limit or try to impose

23     hierarchical solutions so as to have every single word of the president

24     implemented.

25             I can say with full responsibility that in my political career,

Page 993

 1     sometimes my positions were such that would oppose the rest of the party,

 2     and I know that such opinion existed in certain local boards of the

 3     party.  Even today you meet such situations in the work of the various

 4     political parties across Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   All right.  Well, I think we're going to look at one particular

 6     document in a moment.  Can I next turn to the topic of regionalisation.

 7             Was that, in fact, a policy that was adopted by the SDS to begin

 8     with?

 9        A.   If you want me to be honest, the SDS always stood against

10     regionalisation.  SDS policy was not regionalisation but, rather, an

11     attempt at centralisation.  Although, I must say again that all separate

12     needs were taken into account for regional organisations.  During a

13     certain period the regional boards were even abolished and then again

14     reinstated and mentioned in the statute.  So the situation changed.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, I'm going to ask you to look, please, at a

16     document which is 65 ter number 5, please.  And can we -- which you had a

17     chance to look at yesterday.

18             Is that headed "Agreement on the Formation of a Community of

19     Bosnian Krajina Municipalities," and it does it show the municipalities,

20     including Kotor Varos?

21        A.   Yes.  That is what it says.  But it is important to say,

22     mentioning this document, that the community of Bosnian Krajina

23     municipalities had existed as part of the SFRY, as well as

24     Republika Srpska.  That community had existed even prior to World War II.

25     Kotor Varos, by virtue of its natural geographical position and other

Page 994

 1     historical, cultural, traffic and developmental elements gravitated

 2     towards Banja Luka, and it was always a part of that region.

 3        Q.   Yes, but the -- you're not saying -- this was a different type of

 4     organisation, wasn't it, Mr. Djekanovic?

 5        A.   I don't know what you have in mind specifically in what way was

 6     it different.  But there must have been a number of municipalities which

 7     were new to such a community.  If we compare its statutory role in the

 8     former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the current

 9     status, we would see that the similarities are great.  Of course, certain

10     municipalities did not used to belong to the community, but that is not

11     the case with Kotor Varos [as interpreted].

12        Q.   The difference was this -- between this and the one you've just

13     mentioned is this was in fact made up entirely, wasn't it, or almost

14     entirely of Serb --

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, another intervention in the transcript.  27,

16     8, the witness said Kotor Varos was always within this community of the

17     municipalities.  Thank you very much.  This was left out from the

18     transcript.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   All right.  Can we go back to -- can I have the document back

21     again.

22             All right.  The delegates to this association were, if not a

23     hundred per cent, pretty much Serb delegates, weren't they?

24        A.   I do not deny that it was so in that period of time, but that

25     policy existed across all levels, regions, and environments.  Here we had

Page 995

 1     Serbs.  In some other locations we had Croats and Muslims jointly, and no

 2     one was bothered by that when they made decisions, although in the

 3     statute and the constitution of the then Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 4     it clearly stated that a decision on the part of one people would not be

 5     accepted as valid.  Although at certain point they -- this was accepted.

 6     Of course, in this environment, Serbs were the only delegates because

 7     others refused to participate.

 8        Q.   And why did others refuse to participate?

 9        A.   Because they had the concept of centralisation of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, what we can see now in which one or two peoples would

11     have power over a third.  Those people tried to create ties between

12     communities which had never lived together.  We had the case of

13     Ante Kotormanovic [as interpreted] who signed a decision that was made

14     public.  That decision had to do with the signing of Kotor Varos with the

15     association of the municipality of Herceg-Bosna.  This was, I believe, in

16     the spring and it was done without the support of any Serb delegates.

17     This was simply the situation on all three sides at the time.

18        Q.   So this was a -- leaving aside Herceg-Bosna -- and I'm not

19     seeking to argue --

20             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise.  Please, just a correction to the

21     transcript.  It's at page 28, line 10 and 9.  Correct name should be

22     Ante Mandic was at that time president of Kotor Varos municipality.  Yes,

23     and that was the association of municipality of Herceg-Bosna, another

24     correction in line 11 and 12.  Thank you.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 996

 1        Q.   This association of Bosnian Krajina municipalities transformed

 2     itself, didn't it, into something called the Assembly of the Autonomous

 3     Region of Krajina?

 4        A.   Yes, it is possible.

 5        Q.   No, not it's possible.  You attended meetings, didn't you

 6     Mr. Djekanovic, of both the association and the Assembly of the

 7     Autonomous Region of Krajina?

 8        A.   Yes, I did attend such meetings.

 9        Q.   And if we look, please, at a second document --

10             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask that this be admitted now as

11     an exhibit.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P67, Your Honours.

14             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

15             Can we move now, please, to a document which is a list of

16     delegates, which is 65 ter 3107, please.  Could we have the English up as

17     well, please.  English?  Anybody?  All right.  There's a problem,

18     apparently, with the English.  Could we -- if we go in -- because we've

19     got numbers even though it's in Cyrillic, to 172, 173, and 174.  It's on

20     page 4 of the document.

21             Right.  Next page, please, page 4.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Is 172, sir, Momcilo Komljenovic, from Kotor Varos?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And he's the gentleman who you told us became head of the

25     Executive Committee of the Municipal Assembly; is that right?

Page 997

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes.  After the multi-party elections in 1990, he became

 2     president of the Executive Board.

 3        Q.   Goran Krzic, who was he?  Who is number 173?

 4        A.   I don't know what period this is, but at that time he was the

 5     president of the municipal SDS and the president of the Municipal

 6     Assembly of Kotor Varos elected at the elections.

 7        Q.   And Savo Tepic?

 8        A.   Also he was the deputy appointed as the chief of the police

 9     station in Kotor Varos.

10        Q.   Right.  And can you tell us why the police chief from Kotor Varos

11     would be attending the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

12        A.   If you tell me the precise dates -- date of this document and if

13     I could recall things so well 17 years later, I would tell you that I

14     presume that he was not there as the chief of police of the Kotor Varos

15     municipality but as the president of the local SDS board.  Perhaps I

16     could not attend.  Perhaps I was at the time attending a session of the

17     Republika Srpska Assembly at Pale.  That is possible, but in terms of

18     date I cannot recall exactly.  I'm not sure -- I am sure he was not there

19     in his capacity as the chief of the police station in Kotor Varos.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, I can't -- I'm afraid I can't assist with the

21     date because it's not a dated document.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that now be admitted?

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  And -- admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P68, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE HALL:  And it is now time for the break.  Twenty minutes.

Page 998

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           -- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

 3                           -- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, just before we leave the Assembly of the

 7     Autonomous Region of Krajina, the president of that Assembly was somebody

 8     called Vojo Kupresanin.  That's right, isn't it?

 9        A.   I think so.  He was.

10        Q.   Sorry?  He was.  Oh, I see.  And the vice --

11        A.   Yes, he was.

12        Q.   And the vice-president was Radoslav Brdjanin.

13        A.   I don't know the entire structure, whether there was an executive

14     body of sorts, but in any case, Radoslav Brdjanin was the man number two.

15        Q.   Right.  And as we'll hear, when it came to the Crisis Staff of

16     the Autonomous Region of Krajina, which came out of the Assembly, it was

17     Radoslav Brdjanin who became the president of the Crisis Staff, wasn't

18     it?

19        A.   From this seat here it's difficult for me to recall all the

20     details.  I know he was the president of the Crisis Staff of the Krajina.

21     I only don't know whether it was throughout the entire period the Crisis

22     Staff existed or not.

23        Q.   All right.  And you knew both Kupresanin and Brdjanin, didn't

24     you, because they were, like you, members of the Assembly of the -- I'm

25     going to call it the Republika Srpska.  I know it didn't change its name

Page 999

 1     till much later, but they were both members of the Republika Srpska

 2     Assembly, weren't they?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.  I want to move now, please, to the events which led

 5     to the -- effectively the -- first of all, the declaration of the Serbian

 6     Assembly.

 7             Were you present at the meeting in October of 1991 of the Bosnia

 8     Assembly, the socialist Republic of Bosnia, when the SDS deputies walked

 9     out?

10        A.   Yes, I was present at that meeting.

11        Q.   And were you present at the founding session of the Assembly of

12     the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   Yes, I was present.

14        Q.   Now, let's look, please, at what happened at the end of 1991.  In

15     December of 1991, did you receive a copy of a set of instructions which

16     had been issued by the Main Board?

17             MS. KORNER:  And can I have, please, 65 ter 2333.

18        Q.   It's a document entitled "SDS Main Board."  The one we've got is

19     "strictly confidential," copy number 93, "Instructions for the

20     organisation and operation of organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina in emergency conditions."

22             Did you get a copy of those instructions?  And when I say you,

23     not particularly you personally, but you the SDS party in Kotor Varos?

24        A.   I have to say that we did have access to that document.  At what

25     stage -- during what period of time we actually were able to access it is

Page 1000

 1     something I cannot tell you, but I would kindly ask the Chamber to allow

 2     me to add something to the last two responses which I believe are

 3     important.  It has to do with things which preceded this decision of the

 4     Serb representatives to form a separate Assembly, if I may.

 5        Q.   You've asked Your Honours.

 6             MS. KORNER:  It's up to Your Honours to allow him.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Inasmuch as he's being led by counsel, counsel would

 8     know what their respective cases are and we'll see where we go.  If the

 9     Chamber wishes clarification at the appropriate stage, it would do that,

10     but there's always a reluctance of witnesses to volunteer testimony.

11             MS. KORNER:  Can I say straightaway I have no idea what he wants

12     to say.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Hence the general reluctance to have witnesses

14     volunteer, Ms. Korner.

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes, it's not exactly my witness in the way that one

16     would normally say it's my witness.

17        Q.   But, sir, we have limited time, but if there's something you feel

18     is important that the Trial Chamber should know, then could you tell them

19     very briefly.

20        A.   Yes, its's very important for one to know.  This decision by the

21     Serb deputies to walk out of the Assembly and form a separate Assembly is

22     something that was preceded by a vote that was taken without the consent

23     of the Serb deputies in the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly on the

24     declaration of independence.  We were out-voted in spite of all the

25     existing Assembly regulation.  That is why we walked out and decided to

Page 1001

 1     form a separate Assembly.  We realised that even decisions that were

 2     supposed to be in force could be simply declared null and void or

 3     out-voted.  Although that was unconstitutional under the then

 4     constitution, we then decided to make this move.  This is what I wanted

 5     to add.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What was the issue?  Was that the fundamental

 9     issue of regionalisation versus centralisation?  Was that the issue in

10     which you felt that you were voted down?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The issue was the break-up of the

12     former common state of Yugoslavia in which we all lived together.  We

13     disagreed with that concept.  The SDS and the Serb people at that time

14     had the idea of conserving Yugoslavia and that the Serb people should

15     remain within Yugoslavia.

16             The other two peoples had their own policy.  That was to say that

17     Yugoslavia ought to be broken up.  Frequently they invoked decisions

18     which were not made in keeping with the then regulation and laws.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   You were asked, sir, whether this had anything to do with

21     regionalisation, because you told us that regionalisation wasn't a policy

22     of the SDS.  So can I just ask one further question on that:  Are you

23     aware of documents produced by Karadzic and others showing that

24     regionalisation was a policy?

25        A.   Through my political activity in the SDS and its political

Page 1002

 1     bodies, I know that for the most part there were cases in which

 2     regionalisation was prevented, because it was widely believed that this

 3     would divide or break up the SDS and that local antagonisms would take

 4     precedence over the general needs of the situation.

 5        Q.   As I say, I don't want to be buried in this topic, but were you

 6     aware of the declaration of the so-called autonomous regions, including

 7     that of Krajina?

 8        A.   Yes, but I would also like to say that we didn't really deal with

 9     that question too much, because the political side was quite organised

10     in -- in that region.

11        Q.   All right.  Well, as I say, I've got a lot to get through with

12     you, Mr. Djekanovic, and the Chamber will hear other evidence about this,

13     so I want to move, please, back to this document.

14             You said you had access this document.  Do you mean you got the

15     document, because if so, could you say so, please?

16        A.   I cannot affirmatively answer whether I received this document

17     personally, whether it came through the autonomous region of the Krajina

18     or through the -- the party organs into the party.  I really cannot

19     remember at this point how I got it.

20        Q.   That's all right, but -- sorry.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, there is another -- I'm sorry to

22     interrupt, but there is another problem with the transcript.  Page 34,

23     25, and 35, 1 and 2.  I believe the witness said, "I would also like to

24     say that we didn't really deal with that question too much because the

25     Kotor Varos was already a part of regional association of the

Page 1003

 1     municipality Bosanska Krajina," and that is not what the -- what the

 2     transcript says.  Something different.  Thank you very much.

 3             MS. KORNER:  That's not at all what the transcript says.  But is

 4     that what you said, sir?  Because it's not what I heard through my

 5     headphones either.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, that's it.

 7             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic.

 8        Q.   All right.  However you got it, you got a copy of this document,

 9     did you?

10        A.   We did have it at our disposal.

11        Q.   All right.  And that was a set of instructions, wasn't it, from

12     the SDS board for what was to happen.  If you turn -- if we go to page 2

13     of the document.

14             In paragraph 1, it was to implement, as it was put, the decision

15     adopted in the plebiscite by the Serbian people.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the plebiscite referred to, is that the one that was held at

18     the beginning of November of 1991 as to whether Serbs wished to remain in

19     the Yugoslav state?

20        A.   The only plebiscite which we conducted was the support to remain

21     in the former state of Yugoslavia.  So that is that document.  That is

22     that assertion.

23        Q.   Yes.  Sorry, the question was whether that's the one that was

24     held at the beginning of November 1991.

25        A.   I have to stress I don't know what time that -- I really cannot

Page 1004

 1     remember after such a long time has passed and in view of the conditions

 2     that I'm living in exactly what happened when.  If you wished me to state

 3     in the order of things that they happened in, I would not be able to do

 4     that.

 5             When the plebiscite was held, it was during the time when the

 6     Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina already decided to declare independence

 7     regardless of what the Serbian people wished.  So it was probably at that

 8     point in time.

 9        Q.   Right.  Well, let's not bother then.  Can you -- if we go down

10     the page to paragraph 3:

11              "The tasks, measures and other activities set forth in these

12     instructions shall be implemented over the entire territory of the

13     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or in every municipality

14     where the Serbian people live, as follows:

15              "In their entirety in those municipalities where the Serbian

16     people constitute a majority ...

17              "And partially in those municipalities where the Serbian people

18     do not constitute a majority (Variant B)."

19             Which variant did Kotor Varos come -- under which variant did

20     Kotor Varos come?

21        A.   Kotor Varos had a relative majority Serbian population.  I don't

22     know which variant applied where.  In seeking a resolution and having

23     this document, which was not an executive document or of the nature of an

24     order, its task was to anticipate or prevent certain things, we were

25     trying to find a solution for survival.  So I don't know whether that was

Page 1005

 1     the best solution or not, but we did not opt for either Variant A or

 2     Variant B in our municipality.  We were trying to see what was

 3     realistically possible to undertake in that period.

 4        Q.   Sorry.  You say this was not -- I'm sorry.  It was not the nature

 5     of an order.  What do you read the words as, "shall be implemented" as if

 6     not an order?

 7        A.   What will be implemented will be what would be possible to

 8     implement and what the situation in the field ensures would be

 9     implementable.  You have a general assertion here of municipalities where

10     the Serbian population is not in a majority, but nowhere is it explicitly

11     stated exactly what would be implemented in such a situation.  So

12     everything that was implemented in Kotor Varos, in my opinion, I'm really

13     unable to see under which variant you would be able to classify it.

14        Q.   Forget -- forget which variant you were -- I'm sorry.  Forget

15     which variant you were for the moment.  All I'm asking you is do not the

16     words, "shall be implemented" constitute an order?  Whether you could

17     implement it or not is another matter, but isn't that an order?

18        A.   I spent a long time in the municipality and in politics in those

19     periods, and I never received a document which I strictly had to

20     implement from the SDS.  I always carried out a discussion at the party

21     organs, at the Municipal Board.  We would always review these matters.

22     Thank God taking into account the policies of the SDS and seeking

23     solutions which for us would be the best, the most acceptable at a given

24     moment in time.

25        Q.   Right.  I think I'll just ask one more time.  Do the words "shall

Page 1006

 1     be implemented" mean that it's an order or not?  That's all I'm asking.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, I haven't heard an intervention from the

 3     other side --

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] But it's a leading question.  I

 5     mean, this is not cross-examination, Your Honour.  Asked and answered.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, as I said, I'm simply trying to get an

 7     answer.  I'm not cross-examining him.  I'm just asking him to give me an

 8     answer.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  I understand that, but the -- as Mr. Krgovic has

10     said, the one point that could be taken as a question has been asked and

11     answered, but I was -- it seemed to me sitting here that one of the

12     difficulties is that you are pressing the witness on the imperative

13     meaning of a word in English, and English -- which may not convey the

14     same meaning in its original form, and perhaps the question should be

15     rephrased.  Not saying Mr. Krgovic -- so the question may not have been

16     asked and answered, that you rephrase it.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   I will read the English translation of those words that appear

19     at -- in the first line of paragraph 3 on that page, and I want you to

20     confirm whether it is correct in the Serbian language.

21             MS. KORNER:  It's quite difficult to do this actually, Your

22     Honour, but anyhow.

23        Q.   "The tasks, measures, and other activities set forth in these

24     instructions shall be implemented ..."

25        A.   In the Serbian it says:

Page 1007

 1              "The tasks, measures, and other activities set forth in these

 2     instructions shall be implemented."  It does not say -- "are to be

 3     implemented."

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note that the distinctions

 5     are very, very fine.  It's very difficult to say.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Anyhow I've made my point.  We'll move on

 7     because we're spending too much time on this.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may try to be of assistance.  I think the

 9     proper -- maybe the proper English translation would be "carried out."

10             MS. KORNER:  The word "shall" --

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  "Would be carried out."

12             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic, but I'll move on.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm just trying to be helpful.

14             MS. KORNER:

15        Q.   All right.  Can we look, sir, please, then, at what those

16     instructions were, and you say you don't know which variant you came

17     under, but as you told us already, the Croats and Muslims, if they got

18     together, had a larger majority than that of the Serbs, did they not?

19        A.   Yes, they were in a majority, but also it was clear that they had

20     already had their own Crisis Staffs, that units were already formed, that

21     practically in a small municipality three armies were practically

22     functioning, three completely opposed to each other military formation.

23     So it was quite normal --

24        Q.   Yes.  Look, sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I do have a

25     limited amount of time.  That's not the question I asked you.  The simple

Page 1008

 1     answer was yes.  Those details I'm sure you'll be asked about in

 2     cross-examination.  For the moment, can we move along and just deal with

 3     what you are told to do, putting it neutrally, I hope in this document.

 4             If you look at Variant B, which would be my suggestion was the

 5     level -- the variant under which you came, at page 7 in the English.  And

 6     I can probably tell you what it is in the B/C/S as well.  It's the same

 7     page, I think.

 8             All right.  Under item 3:

 9              "SDS Municipal Boards shall establish immediately a Crisis Staff

10     of the Serbian people in the municipality ..."

11             And then it gives a list of who should be on that Crisis Staff.

12             Did you form a Crisis Staff?

13        A.   Yes, we did form a Crisis Staff, absolutely.

14        Q.   The president of the SDS Municipal Board shall be the commander

15     of the Crisis Staff."  That was you, wasn't it, in Kotor Varos, and did

16     you become, in fact -- I don't think "commander" is the right word, but

17     president of the Crisis Staff?

18        A.   I'm hearing for the first time that I was the commander of

19     anything, but I was the president of the Crisis Staff.

20        Q.   Yes.  Forget -- I think that's a bad translation.  Did you

21     appoint anybody to be a coordinator for relations with the SDA and the

22     HDZ?

23        A.   The coordination with the SDA and the HDZ was present up until

24     almost the end of May 1992, and this coordination proceeded at the level

25     of the president of the SDS Municipal Board or the parties, but mostly at

Page 1009

 1     the level of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly where

 2     representative of all three parties were.

 3             Personally, we co-operated with the president of the municipality

 4     and the president of the HDZ.  We communicated very well.  We sat down

 5     often together.  We socialised together.  We often got drunk together,

 6     and we used these occasions to speak.  So these communication occurred on

 7     a daily basis.  We would go to him to his office, he would come to us to

 8     our office, and so on and so forth.

 9        Q.   Right.  The question was simply --

10             MR. PANTELIC:  Again, I really apologise to my learned friend

11     Ms. Korner.  I think on page 41, line 21, I don't think that -- that this

12     witness said, "we often got drunk together."  I mean, it's a little bit

13     harsh word, I think.  Maybe socialised --

14             MS. KORNER:  No, no, Mr. Pantelic -- no, no, Mr. Pantelic, let's

15     not have you giving evidence.  Nor do I think it's going to be the most

16     important aspect of this case.

17        Q.   Sir, but, however, can I urge you, please, to simply answer my

18     questions as shortly as possible.  I have a limited amount of time that I

19     have to take you through this, and all that required was, "Yes, there was

20     coordination."

21             Right.  Item number 4:

22              "Convene and proclaim an Assembly of a Serbian People in the

23     municipality composed of Assembly men, representatives of the Serbian

24     people in the municipal Assembly, and presidents of SDS local boards."

25             Simple question.  Did you actually convene an Assembly of the

Page 1010

 1     Serbian People in Kotor Varos?

 2        A.   Yes, we did convene it.  An Assembly of the Serbian People of the

 3     municipality of Kotor Varos.

 4        Q.   Which was separate from the elected Municipal Assembly which

 5     contained SDA, HDZ, and SDS?

 6        A.   All political groups and all three national parties had separate

 7     parallel structures in the area of the Kotor Varos municipality,

 8     including my own -- or, rather, the political structure to which I

 9     belonged, the SDS.  What we had and what we managed to maintain together

10     continued somehow until May, and that was the Municipal Assembly of the

11     municipality of Kotor Varos, but the first, second, and third of those

12     parties, all of us, were working on other things along parallel tracks.

13        Q.   Yes.  All right.  Again, sir, whatever the other parties were

14     doing at the moment, I'm simply asking you what you did as a result of

15     the instructions.

16             Right.  Item number -- could you turn over -- could we have the

17     next page and see item number 8 -- 7 first.  The next page of the

18     document.

19             Item number 7:

20              "Step up information and propaganda in order to ensure that the

21     Serbian people are informed fully and in time ..."

22             Did you carry out that instruction?

23        A.   We never had a service or a team of people within the party

24     dealing with any propaganda activities.  We did issue a bulletin and the

25     odd proclamation.  If you can consider that to be of that nature, then

Page 1011

 1     that would be that.

 2        Q.   And did you carry out instruction number 8, "Prepare an estimate

 3     of the number of necessary active and reserve policemen, TO units ... and

 4     bring them up to full manpower levels ..." et cetera?

 5        A.   That was an item that was impossible to implement, and we did not

 6     deal with that at the party organs.  We were unable to man or staff any

 7     unit or any organ, and we could not implement that in the territory of

 8     the Kotor Varos municipality.  Therefore, my answer would be no.

 9        Q.   It says "prepare an estimate."  Did you ever give the Main Board

10     an estimate of how many active and reserve policemen and TO units you

11     had?

12        A.   As far as I recall, we never provided such an estimate.

13        Q.   All right.  And finally, can we go to the -- almost the last page

14     of this document, penultimate, number 11, page 11.

15             Item number 4:

16              "The secret procedure for transferring and receiving orders to

17     implement tasks ..."

18             Can we pause there.  Do you agree that says "orders"?

19        A.   It does say "order," yes, that is correct.

20        Q.    "To implement tasks, measures, or other activities ... shall be

21     established subsequently. "

22             Were you ever given a secret procedure?

23        A.   I was never given any kind of secret procedure nor am I aware

24     that such a measure was ever adopted within the party.  I don't know of

25     anything like that at least.

Page 1012

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's all I ask about the document.

 2     May that be admitted as an exhibit now.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P69, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   I want you briefly, please, to look at 65 ter 00097.  Which is

 7     the same as 1598, apparently.

 8             All right.  That's -- that's jumping ahead slightly in the

 9     chronology, but it's because it's dated on the last second page the 26th

10     of April, but it's headed "The Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina, extract from the instructions from the work of Crisis Staffs

12     of the Serbian people."

13             And if we go to the second page now of the document.  Dated, as I

14     say, the 26th of April, 1992.  And is signed by Mr. Djeric.  Well, I say

15     signed.  It bears his typed signature.

16             Did you receive this document, Mr. Djekanovic?

17        A.   Looking at it from this point of view today, I have the

18     impression that I'm seeing it for the first time.  I cannot remember

19     precisely whether I had it then or not, whether I saw it or not.  I

20     really cannot remember.

21        Q.   Well, seeing it for the first time can't be right, can it,

22     because you were shown it in an interview.

23        A.   The reason for that is that the document could have gone through

24     the Kotor Varos municipal Executive Board and not through the party

25     Executive Board, and that is the reason why I'm saying that I may not

Page 1013

 1     have seen it.  I'm not disputing the document's existence.  Perhaps in

 2     this form or some other form.

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, all I wanted to ask you about is item number

 4     14:

 5             "The Crisis Staff shall ... make decisions --"

 6             Sorry, paragraph 14:

 7             "The Crisis Staff shall ... make decisions and hold sessions

 8     in --" sorry.  Thank you.  "The Crisis Staff shall convene and make

 9     decisions in the presence of all its members, take official minutes,

10     issue written decisions, and submit weekly reports to the regional and

11     state organisations of the Serbian republic ..."

12             All I want to ask you is, did you have minutes taken of your

13     meetings?

14        A.   When the Crisis Staff was functioning, we did take minutes.  The

15     bulk of the excerpts from those minutes you also have, so the question is

16     superfluous.  We did have meetings -- minutes, not only at the Crisis

17     Staff meetings but only -- but at all types of meetings or sessions.  We

18     did take the minutes of the meetings.  There were transcripts of those

19     sessions.

20        Q.   And did you submit weekly reports to the regional and state

21     organisations?

22        A.   In the period that this refers to or could refer to, many

23     communications had broken down in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So now I can

24     decisively state that the organs at the central of the party did not

25     receive reports that were submitted by us.  Sometimes we would give them

Page 1014

 1     a summary that would be those from the meetings at the regional Crisis

 2     Staff sessions, but we did not make reports for each individual meeting.

 3     This was simply something that was done from case to case, just as if --

 4     as the change -- as there were changes in the need for convening Crisis

 5     Staff meetings.  Sometimes they would be held from time to time.

 6     Sometimes there was need for them to be held on a daily basis.

 7        Q.   Yes.  All right.  Honestly, sir, I'm going to ask you again --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   Please just answer the question I ask and don't volunteer

11     information that really isn't necessary.

12             Right.  I want to move, please, to the -- or go back, rather,

13     because that was later on, and look at document 65 ter 671, please.

14             MS. KORNER:  And may I ask that the previous document is

15     admitted, this one I've just looked at.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As P70, Your Honours.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise, Your Honour.  I was really -- I

19     was really busy with some other issues.  I again apologise.

20             I don't think that this is an appropriate way that through this

21     witness we could admit this particular document in light of the previous

22     rulings that this Honourable Trial Chamber made.  And in addition, the

23     author of this document is on the Prosecution list, so we shall have a

24     possibility to -- to have possibility to tender it through the author of

25     this document, because Mr. Djeric will be on the list of OTP.  But

Page 1015

 1     specifically, we know here that when we try to get some answers from

 2     previous witnesses with regard to the other documents about the events in

 3     municipality of Kotor Varos and Sanski Most, a ruling was not that these

 4     particular documents can -- because this witness simply said he doesn't

 5     know about these document, he never saw these document, and finally, he

 6     don't have -- he didn't implement it.

 7             So that's the basis for our objection to tender this document

 8     through this witness.  I'm not challenging the option that maybe OTP can

 9     tender this document through the author or some other relevant officials.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, does your objection apply only to the

11     most recent document or other documents that were tendered this

12     afternoon?

13             MR. PANTELIC:  I'm just speaking about this particular document

14     because the author was the prime minister at that time and obviously this

15     witness doesn't know anything about --

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be brief.

17     Yesterday we had a similar situation, and I agreed fully with your

18     decision, with your ruling, and I withdrew the document in question.  The

19     explanation given was identical to the one given by my learned friend

20     now.  I join his objection, and in accordance to -- with your yesterday's

21     ruling, I don't think this document should be tendered and admitted

22     through this witness.  We will have the author of the document here.

23             MS. KORNER:  What he said was he wasn't denying they had it, and,

24     yes, contrary to what was suggested by Mr. Pantelic, he did implement the

25     paragraph.

Page 1016

 1             MR. PANTELIC:  Well, I mean, if they did take minutes, my learned

 2     friend, I mean, minutes are minutes.  They are doing that prior, during,

 3     and after all these seasons.  I mean, it's not the main issue of this

 4     document.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, if you are going to call the author

 7     of the document as a witness in any case, then it might be wise to seek

 8     the admission of the -- this document through the author.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I don't have particularly strong

10     feelings about it.  It just makes more sense logically to have this

11     document as an exhibit next to the Variant A and B document, but my

12     submission is it I've laid the groundwork.  If you rule against me on

13     that, then it can just be marked for identification.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  What the Chamber would do is to recall

16     its order exhibiting this document and make a new order having it marked

17     for identification.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P70, therefore, is marked for

19     identification, Your Honours.

20             MS. KORNER:  Okay.  Could we have the next document that I asked

21     to come up -- up again, 65 ter 671.

22        Q.   This is the decision, and there we see the dates of the

23     plebiscite for you, Mr. Djekanovic, the decision to found the Serbian

24     Municipality of Kotor Varos.  When did you make the decision to found the

25     Serbian municipality?

Page 1017

 1        A.   I cannot give you the exact date.

 2        Q.   That's fine.

 3        A.   It was in that period.  Perhaps it could have been a month before

 4     that or later.

 5        Q.   And there we see decision on the verification of the declared

 6     Serbian autonomous districts, which it was a decision that had been made

 7     bit Serbian Assembly, the main Assembly, hadn't it?  Mr. Djekanovic?

 8        A.   The decision on the founding of the Serb Municipal Assembly of

 9     Kotor Varos was made by the deputies of --

10        Q.   No, sorry.  The decision to verify the declared Serbian

11     autonomous districts.  That was a decision -- that had been made, had it

12     not, by the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   Before me I have a decision to join the Autonomous Region of

14     Krajina, and I'm reading from the Serbian version that I have before me.

15        Q.   Never mind.

16              "It's hereby proclaimed the Serbian Municipality of Kotor Varos

17     shall be part of the Autonomous District of Krajina ..."

18             And if we go to the bottom of the page in the translation.  That

19     was you signing that decision, wasn't it?

20        A.   My first and last name as typed are mine, but this is not my

21     signature.  I'm not disputing this, though, because I would have signed

22     it myself if I had been given the chance to.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Can I just go back to the paragraph about the

25     Serbian municipality in English, please.  Thank you.

Page 1018

 1        Q.   There wasn't, was there, a Serbian Municipality of Kotor Varos.

 2     There was a municipality of Kotor Varos made up of three different

 3     nations.

 4        A.   If we take it out of the context, then that is true, but there

 5     used to be a common state called Bosnia and Herzegovina in which the

 6     three different peoples did not wish to secede from Yugoslavia, and still

 7     it was recognised.  By the same token, it is true that this was the

 8     Serbian Municipality of Kotor Varos comprised of we know who, but there

 9     was also the joint Municipal Assembly in the work of which

10     representatives of all the parties participated, that is to say, people

11     elected during -- or through the election process legally.

12        Q.   All right.  The HDZ and the SDA, the Croats and the Muslims, were

13     not going to be joining, were they, the autonomous district of -- it

14     should be region, I think, Autonomous Region of Krajina?

15        A.   I wish to say that Anto Mandic as the municipal president did

16     participate in certain sessions, although I don't know how many.

17     Specifically I have in mind a session in Celinac, that session of the

18     autonomous region in which he participated.

19             I've already stressed that we as the SDS did not take much

20     interest in that issue, because we had the heritage and the situation in

21     terms of facts which worked in our favour.  That is to say, that Kotor

22     Varos had been part of that region and that geographically and by all

23     other means it gravitated to Banja Luka.  Therefore, passing this

24     decision was not of essential importance to us.  This decision probably

25     arose from the results of the plebiscite and based on the requests of our

Page 1019

 1     people.  People started doubting our ability, asking themselves what we

 2     were doing, although we tried to explain to them that formally speaking

 3     this didn't change a thing.

 4        Q.   I'll ask the question again, please, and if you'll just answer

 5     that question.  Were the HDZ and the SDA and the Croats and Muslim

 6     population of Kotor Varos going to be prepared to join the Autonomous

 7     Region of Krajina?

 8        A.   I don't have an answer to that because no one asked those people.

 9     Their political representatives disputed everything that had existed in

10     the previous state, and they were trying to break up everything.

11             This question of yours may also be seen as leading, but had we

12     had a plebiscite in which they could freely decide on this issue, I don't

13     know what would have been the result of that.

14        Q.   All right.  I'm going to move on.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I have that document exhibited?

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 71, P71, Your Honours.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   Can we move now, please, to April, and could you have a look at a

20     record of the National Defence Council, 65 ter number 676.

21             This is the minutes of the National Defence Council of Kotor

22     Varos, dated the 7th of April, 1992.  Present at the session was -- let's

23     just deal with them.  Nedeljko Maric.  What position did he hold in the

24     SJB?

25        A.   He was the commander of the police station, commander of the SJB.

Page 1020

 1        Q.   And was a Croat; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Muhamed Sadikovic?

 4        A.   Sadikovic was deputy commander, as far as I know, and his

 5     ethnicity at that time was Muslim.

 6        Q.   Right.  Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic and Captain Slobodan Zupljanin,

 7     who at that stage were still members of the JNA; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And there was yourself?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And Anto Mandic who was also chairman of the National Defence

12     Council.

13             I just want to ask you about the paragraph which is at the bottom

14     of the first page in English and at the top of the second page in the

15     B/C/S.

16             There was a discussion, wasn't there, about the fact that the

17     weapons had been taken from the Territorial Defence depot to Mali Logor

18     in Banja Luka?  Do you remember that discussion, sir?

19        A.   First of all, I was not a member of the council.  I attended this

20     session as an SDS member, as the president of its Executive Board, and I

21     remember the discussion fairly well.  Of course, I cannot recall all the

22     details, but I remember the session.

23        Q.   Yes.  And the -- Mr. Mandic and others present, Mr. Sadikovic,

24     were worried, weren't they, that the weapons had been removed and taken

25     to Banja Luka?  That was a question, sir.

Page 1021

 1        A.   I did not understand this to be a question.  You simply stated

 2     that they were worried.  I don't know if they were.  I know they objected

 3     at the session.  As for the results of their intentions, this is

 4     something I don't know about.  I don't know the degree of their concern.

 5     There was a lot of falsehood and insincerity involved among all of us.

 6     Hence I cannot comment their concerns.

 7        Q.   All right.  Can we look, then, please, at the paragraph that

 8     begins "After remarks by Savo Tepic," which is on page 2 of the English,

 9     and it's the same page in the B/C/S.

10             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise again.  Correction to the

11     transcript.  Page 53, line 21 witness didn't say that falsehood and

12     insincerity amongst all of us.  He said falsehood and insincerity among

13     them, meaning Mandic and Sadikovic against the Serbs.  That was the

14     meaning, but you can clarify that with the witness, please.

15             MS. KORNER:

16        Q.   Is that what your said?  It was the other side who was insincere

17     and false but not the SDS?

18        A.   Each conversation with them was absolutely insincere.  They

19     always had a hidden agenda from the one they proclaimed publicly.

20        Q.   The question, sir, was did you say that it was only the SDS and

21     the HDZ who were telling lies, but the SDS was not?  That was what the

22     correction was.

23        A.   As far as I understand from the interpretation I'm receiving is

24     whether the HDZ and the SDA lied, whereas the SDS did not.  It seems to

25     be contradictory.  I cannot answer.  I said that representatives of the

Page 1022

 1     SDA and the HDZ at such meetings stated one position, whereas behind the

 2     scenes they did something completely opposite.

 3        Q.    I don't want to waste any more time on this one either.  Can

 4     we -- can you now look at the paragraph that begins:

 5             "After remarks by Savo Tepic on the conclusions of the meeting

 6     held on the 6th of April, 1992, at the security services centre in Banja

 7     Luka, others also took part in a discussion on the transformation in the

 8     Kotor Varos SJB."

 9             Okay.  What was the transformation of the Kotor Varos SJB going

10     to be?

11        A.   As for the work of other institutions where I was not in charge

12     and the structure of which I was not familiar with in full, that is

13     something that I find difficult to answer, but in keeping with the

14     organisation of the Krajina region, similarly, at least hierarchically

15     speaking, the CSB was organised in the same fashion in Banja Luka.  And

16     as for the SJB in Kotor Varos, it fell under the competence of the CSB in

17     Banja Luka in terms of all structural levels.  What happened when is

18     something that was debated extensively, and it involved different issues.

19     If we address each such an issue in particular, I can try and answer to

20     the extent possible.

21        Q.   I'm just asking you, because you were there and we weren't, what

22     was the issue about the transformation in the Kotor Varos SJB?

23        A.   I think that the basic transformation was that the hierarchy of

24     command was supposed to be implemented.  That is to say that the police

25     station in Kotor Varos fell under the CSB.  As I said, by that time we

Page 1023

 1     had double or triple authorities, each one using its own channels to pass

 2     on information rather than sharing that information across the joint

 3     bodies at the level of the B and H.  By the same token, different

 4     information came out of the police station from various representatives.

 5     For example, an HDZ representative sent his information to his people, a

 6     SDA representative to his own, and the chief of the station who was an

 7     SDS member was supposed to honour the structure, and I believe he did so,

 8     and he was supposed to follow the structure and pass on information to

 9     the CSB in Banja Luka.

10        Q.   Okay.

11        A.   Initial disputes began with the issue of coordination as I have

12     explained.

13        Q.   Did it have anything to do with the change in the insignia?

14        A.   It is possible that some dissatisfaction arose from the change of

15     the insignia on the uniforms, although no one ever insisted in full on

16     that issue in Kotor Varos.

17        Q.   Or having to take a loyalty oath to the Serbian republic in

18     Bosnia?

19        A.   I don't know if that was an issue or whether anyone received such

20     a text and in what form, but I do know that together with Anto Mandic I

21     attended a meeting during which -- or rather which was attended by almost

22     all members of the police station in Kotor Varos, during which such

23     issues were openly discussed.

24        Q.   Was that the meeting with Stojan Zupljanin that's referred to

25     here?

Page 1024

 1        A.   The meeting I have in mind that was held in the pensioners' hall

 2     does not include Stojan Zupljanin.  And I don't think he attended the

 3     meeting.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Forgive me, Your Honour.  I'm just checking the --

 5     all right.  Your Honours, may that be made an Exhibit Number?

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P72, Your Honours.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   All right.  On this topic can you look very quickly, please, at

10     some minutes of the executive committee held two days later, 9th of

11     April, 1992, which is 65 ter 2338.

12             All right.  We can see there this is the minutes of an

13     extraordinary session of the Executive Committee on the 9th of April,

14     1992.

15             If we go to the second page in the English we can see that you

16     were there.  And it's also page 2 in the B/C/S.

17             I just want to ask you about one matter, so we have to go -- I

18     think it's on the same page, actually.  Yes, conclusions.  Bottom of the

19     page after Mr. Spahic.  Bottom of the page in English, and in B/C/S it's

20     on the next page, page 3.

21             Under item 2 -- sorry, conclusion number 2:

22              "In order to prevent possible incidents, it was agreed not to

23     make changes in the public security station ... Kotor Varos, the

24     Territorial Defence or other government institutions without prior

25     agreement of the ruling parties."

Page 1025

 1             Now, this was two days after the last meeting.  Did the changes

 2     have anything to do with a loyalty oath having to be taken to the Serbian

 3     republic?

 4        A.   Through this conclusion one can see that this and other decisions

 5     and instructions were not implemented entirely in the area of Kotor Varos

 6     municipality.  I did not really complete the story from which you could

 7     clearly get an idea of what the situation was in Kotor Varos, so then

 8     there will be space for you to conclude what it was like, but the

 9     situation was very close to incidents breaking out.  There were barriers

10     and obstacles placed on the roads already.  There were shooting and

11     conflicts in the surrounding villages already.  So that was the general

12     tone of the situation, and I'm not going to really comment on that any

13     more.  But I do know that members of the police station of other

14     ethnicity, Muslims and Croats, rather, never asked them definitely to

15     sign any loyalty oaths, and I don't know of any of them that had been

16     left without a job in that period.

17        Q.   It really is -- what changes, therefore, if it had nothing to do

18     with a loyalty oath or uniform, in the police station could this have

19     been referring to?  That's all I want to know.

20        A.   If you hold a meeting with the police attended by representatives

21     of all the political parties, and at the same time in front of the hall

22     where the meeting is being held you have people with weapons walking

23     around who do not belong to the police, who fire from automatic weapons

24     and are chasing each other around town, then I guess you would be likely

25     to understand better exactly what kind of a situation this was.  And this

Page 1026

 1     actually happened on the day this joint meeting was being held.

 2        Q.   No, all right.  I'll move on otherwise we'll get buried forever.

 3             I want to move then -- thank you very much.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Can that, Your Honour, be exhibited?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P73, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  And I think we're coming up on the break.

 8             Ms. Korner, in the next five minutes when it's convenient.

 9             MS. KORNER:  No, sorry.  You obviously heard my muttering, is

10     what I'm worried about is the amount of time this is taking.  That's all.

11             That's a perfectly convenient place, Your Honours.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           -- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

14                           -- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, the registrar advises us that you

17     have used two hours.  I think you originally asked for three hours to

18     complete your examination-in-chief of this witnesses -- of this witness,

19     and each of the two Defence counsels have asked for two hours.

20             MS. KORNER:  I changed that, Your Honour.  I said between three

21     and a half and four.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  There is a subsequent e-mail to suggest

23     that you would ask more time, but I just want to be sure that when we

24     come halfway down the line of your case, that you keep track of the total

25     amount of time that has been allocated to you so that we do not run into

Page 1027

 1     a situation where -- where you have to ask for more time than the total

 2     amount of hours that has been --

 3             MS. KORNER:  Can I -- as you are obviously aware, I have well in

 4     the forefront of my mind the number of hours, but this is the first

 5     witness of this type that Your Honours have seen.  It would help, I

 6     think, if perhaps you could instruct the witness, rather than me saying

 7     it, that he should really just answer the question I ask rather than

 8     adding all the detail which doesn't really relate to the specific

 9     question I ask.  That's my problem at the moment, and I dislike

10     interrupting witnesses.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We'll instruct the witness.

12             Please be advised of what the Prosecutor has just said.

13             But also to you, Mrs. Korner, please keep track of the time so

14     that you don't get into trouble at the end.

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I fully appreciate that, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, I want to move now, please, to the only Assembly

19     meeting I want to ask you about that you attended, that of the 12th of

20     May of 1992.  You recall attending that meeting, don't you?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. KORNER:  I'm going to ask, please, that we have on the screen

23     65 ter number 926.  And we need to go in the English, please, to page 13,

24     and in the B/C/S to, I believe, page 7.

25             Can we move the page in English up, please.  Thank you.

Page 1028

 1        Q.   This is Karadzic speaking and setting out the six strategic

 2     goals.  Do you remember hearing Mr. Karadzic speak?

 3        A.   I reminded myself of that meeting yesterday and took parts of

 4     addresses of certain people.  Had you asked me the day before yesterday

 5     about it, I wouldn't have remembered the people or the dates, but now I'm

 6     saying that I partially remember.  I reminded myself of their addresses,

 7     but if you were to ask me now about the goals, I doubt that I would be

 8     able to list them.

 9        Q.   Yes.  But -- sorry.  Let's just get this straight.  You were

10     there, and you heard Dr. Karadzic speak; is that right?

11        A.   That is correct, yes, but it's true that it has been 17 years

12     since then and that I'm a man who is living under difficult mental and

13     physical circumstances, and my psychological and physical state and my

14     struggle for survival do not permit me to remember what happened at each

15     one of those meetings and who said what.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, why don't you wait until you hear

17     what the Prosecutor wants to ask you.  Once you said you were there and

18     you listened to it.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   All right.  Looking at the preamble, "The Serbian side in Bosnia

21     and Herzegovina," et cetera.  And then the first goal is separation from

22     the other two national communities, separation of states.  "Separation

23     from those who are our enemies and who have used every opportunity to

24     attack us, et cetera."

25             How in a mixed municipality such as Kotor Varos were you going to

Page 1029

 1     be able to achieve a separate state or a separate municipality?

 2        A.   We were not able to do that.  We knew we were not able to do

 3     that, and we did not do it either.

 4        Q.   All right.  You're saying you didn't do anything to set up a

 5     Serbian municipality in Kotor Varos.  Is that really what you're -- is

 6     that what you're saying?

 7        A.   No, I don't want to say that.  What I want to say is that we knew

 8     that there were representatives of other peoples in the region of the

 9     municipality who disagreed with some of our positions, just as we

10     disagreed with some of theirs.  All three of us knew that we cannot

11     separate in the way that is being implied here or that I am being asked

12     to answer about.

13        Q.   All right.  So -- so you're saying that it wasn't possible

14     because of the ethnic mix to separate Serbs from Croats and Muslims; is

15     that right?

16        A.   That is right.  And the current situation in the municipality of

17     Kotor Varos confirms that.

18        Q.   We'll come on to -- we won't come on to the current.  I'm

19     interested, please, in 1992.

20             I would then like you to look, please, at the speech made by

21     Mr. Kalinic, which I think is on page 21 in the English, and maybe

22     slightly different because we've got a different -- and it's -- in the

23     B/C/S it's page 14.

24             Sorry, it's page 22.  I'm sorry.

25             You did know Mr. Kalinic, did you?

Page 1030

 1        A.   Yes, I did know him, and I still know him.

 2        Q.   Did he become the minister of health in the government at some

 3     stage?

 4        A.   At some stage, yes.

 5        Q.   What he said about this was:

 6             "Have we chosen the option of war or the option of negotiating?

 7     I say this with a reason, and I must instantly add that knowing how our

 8     enemy is, how perfidious they are, how they cannot be trusted until they

 9     are physically, militarily destroyed and crushed, which of course implies

10     eliminating and liquidating their key people.  I do not hesitate in

11     selecting the first option ..."

12             Did you agree with those sentiments expressed by Mr. Kalinic?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   So you wouldn't have agreed to the elimination and liquidation of

15     key people from the Croats and the Muslims?

16        A.   I don't think that I would ever agree with that, and I don't

17     believe that Kalinic would either.

18        Q.   All right.  So you don't believe he meant what he was saying.

19        A.   I don't know what he was thinking.  Like I said, I had heard all

20     kinds of stories and tales, and had I taken each one for what it was, I

21     would have had a headache.  But having known him in life, I don't think

22     that he was that kind of a man.

23        Q.   All right.  Can we just go down a bit further in the English.

24     Yes.  He said -- he went on to say in the next paragraph:

25              "Why do I say that the option of war seems more likely to me?

Page 1031

 1     Because only what has been conquered militarily may become really and

 2     truly ours."

 3             Did you agree with that?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Could we go, then, please, in the English to page 24.  And in the

 6     B/C/S it will be, I believe, page 16.  And it will be 25 in the English,

 7     actually.  Miroslav Vjestica.

 8             You should have up in front of you, sir, Mr. Vjestica's speech.

 9     Did you know him?

10        A.   Yes, I know him.  I know him still today.

11        Q.   He was, was he not, the SDS president in Bosanska Krupa?

12        A.   I don't know if he was that at the time.  I know that he was a

13     deputy together with me in the municipality -- in the Assembly of Bosnia

14     and Herzegovina.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

16     sentence.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, you are asked by the interpreters to

18     repeat your last sentence.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I said that I knew that he was a

20     deputy together with me in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the

21     Assembly of Republika Srpska at the time, but I don't know whether he was

22     also a member of the SDS board at that same time.

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   All right.  The only thing that I want to ask you about in his

25     speech is this:  He says somewhere in the middle of it:

Page 1032

 1              "For a year and a half we've been preparing for war in the

 2     Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa because we knew there would be a

 3     war and it could not be avoided."

 4             Had you been preparing for a war in Kotor Varos?

 5        A.   Members of the former Yugoslav People's Army from Kotor Varos

 6     would go to the front in Croatia as early as 1991.

 7        Q.   No, sorry, sir.  You misunderstand.  I believe that what

 8     Mr. Vjestica is talking about is a war that is going to happen with the

 9     other nationalities in Krupa.  I'm asking you whether that was your

10     opinion in respect of Kotor Varos.

11        A.   I cannot speak about Krupa, I can talk about Kotor Varos, and I

12     can talk about other municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There were

13     violent killings and conflicts in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina

14     before then as well, meaning that war was inevitable.  Bijeljina,

15     Sijekovac, Kupres, these municipalities were all close to us where there

16     were conflicts.  So war was already there.

17        Q.   All right.  I'll try once more --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.

20        Q.   All I want to know is whether you were preparing for a war with

21     the Muslims and Croats in the municipality of Kotor Varos.

22        A.   We were preparing for defence, for the protection of our people.

23     And we did not have any intention of killing or relocating anyone, only

24     to protect our people, to organise and protect our people, because it was

25     evident that war was all around us taking place, so we could not stick

Page 1033

 1     our heads into the sand and say nothing would happen.  Already in April

 2     there was firing and shooting in Kotor Varos, and if I'm wrong about

 3     that, then I apologise.

 4        Q.   All right.  You call it defence, but were you in fact preparing

 5     for a conflict, an armed conflict?

 6        A.   Everyone was carrying weapons and everybody was preparing for

 7     some kind of goal of their own.

 8        Q.   All right.  Move on for the last speech I want to ask you about,

 9     that of Radoslav Brdjanin, which is at page 28 in the English, and I

10     believe at page 20 in the B/C/S.  I'm sorry, 29 in the English it will

11     be.

12             First of all, you knew Radoslav Brdjanin quite well, didn't you?

13        A.   Of the people that you refer to, perhaps I knew him the best.  I

14     don't know if I knew him all that well or if I saw him all that much.

15     Perhaps not, but I did know him the best out of all the people that

16     you've mentioned.

17        Q.   His speech, the only part that I want to refer to is -- he says:

18              "I would like to say a heartfelt bravo to Mr. Kalinic.  In all

19     my appearances in this joint Assembly it has never crossed my mind that,

20     although he seems quiet while I seem hawkish, his opinions are the

21     closest to mine."

22             You told us you knew Brdjanin the best of all these people.

23     Would you agree that his opinions were hawkish and close to those

24     expressed by Mr. Kalinic?

25        A.   Perhaps his statements seemed that way, but actually in life,

Page 1034

 1     since I travelled with him to the Assembly sessions in his car, in life

 2     he didn't seem like that, but in his speeches he did have a habit of

 3     saying things like that.  Perhaps more than he should have.  Maybe that

 4     was part of his nature.  But actually, in life he wasn't like that.

 5        Q.   So what he said -- so what he said in his speeches were hawkish,

 6     but if you talked to him he was really a very nice man.  Is that what

 7     you're saying?

 8        A.   Yes.  In the majority of cases, yes.  Even up until May his

 9     driver was a Muslim.  A Muslim would drive him to the Assembly session.

10     This was right up until the outbreak of the war.

11        Q.   I'm sorry, I said that was the last part, but there was one other

12     part.  Page 30 of the -- 31 of the English, and I think probably 21 of

13     the B/C/S.  I think.

14             He's referring there -- he starts:

15              "As for the military options, I do not know much about that, but

16     I propose, as Mr. Zupljanin has said, that Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina

17     cannot be defended if it is based on the voluntary principle."

18             Do you know what he was referring to there in the sense of

19     something that had been said by Mr. Zupljanin?

20        A.   I really cannot recall that at this moment.  I don't know what he

21     was thinking, what he meant.

22        Q.   All right.  That's all that I want to ask you about that

23     document.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted, please.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 1035

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P74, Your Honours.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   All right.  I want to now move directly to how Kotor Varos came

 4     to be taken over by the Serbs.

 5             Could you have a look this document, please, which is

 6     65 ter 10101.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one explanation, because now

 8     I'm looking at the transcript.  When the Prosecutor asked about

 9     Mr. Zupljanin, it's not clear which Zupljanin the witness meant here.

10     The entire question and answer don't make sense, whether the Prosecutor

11     is thinking about Slobodan Zupljanin or the deputy in the Assembly of

12     Republika Srpska.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, perhaps you should ask the question

14     again to clarify this matter.

15             MS. KORNER:  Okay.

16        Q.   Was there a deputy in the Assembly called Zupljanin?

17        A.   In that period there was no Zupljanin deputy in the Assembly.

18     I'm talking about the Assembly of Republika Srpska.

19        Q.   Yes.  Are you able to say, and if you're not say so straightaway,

20     whether he was referring there to Slobodan Zupljanin or Stojan Zupljanin?

21        A.   It's truly difficult to say who he was thinking of, and it's

22     difficult to conclude that from this.  There was a Slobodan Zupljanin -

23     and he existed - who was one of the commanders of the units.  So I don't

24     know who he was thinking of.

25        Q.   I'm sorry, I mentioned --

Page 1036

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   I asked for a document to be put up, but I'm going to skip that

 4     in the interest of time.

 5             Could we have a look, please, though, at the next document, which

 6     is 65 ter number 10102.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I should explain.  I think you asked

 8     me last week, Your Honour, about the business of 65 ter numbers.  This is

 9     not on our list.  I'm not going to ask for it to be exhibited.  I'm just

10     going to ask that it be marked for identification until we get a witness

11     who can properly deal with it.

12        Q.   Sir, that document there, you won't have seen it before but it's

13     the content I want to ask you about.

14             Were you aware of a gathering of patriotically inclined citizens

15     in the Maslovare area, demanding weapons and joining military formations

16     in order to oppose the extremist in the Vrbanjci and Kotor Varos area?

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, before the witness answers, would you

18     be good enough to tell us what it is?

19             MS. KORNER:  The what?

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The document.

21             MS. KORNER:  Oh, the document.  It's one of the Milos set of

22     reports.  I think I explained to Your Honour in opening, and you're going

23     to hear evidence from a witness about it, that this was an operative of

24     the SNB who was reporting to Banja Luka.  And there are a huge number of

25     these reports.  And as I say, I'm not saying the witness will have ever

Page 1037

 1     seen this before.  I'm just asking about the content.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I saw this document yesterday for

 4     the first time.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   Yes.  I'm not suggesting you seen it before, as I say, until you

 7     saw it yesterday.  I just want to know whether you were aware of people

 8     in the Maslovare area, citizens demanding weapons.

 9        A.   It was a daily occurrence in the area of the municipality of

10     Kotor Varos, as early as March and April.  Different groups of different

11     ethnicities gathered in different places.  They all required to --

12     demanded to fight against the others.  I participated in various

13     negotiations across different villages, and we all travelled together to

14     attend such negotiations until May.  There were such requests put for

15     weapons, because there had been a number of incidents in the area of the

16     municipality of Kotor Varos.

17        Q.   So were these requests made by Serbs to you?

18        A.   I don't know what requests in particular these are.  Specifically

19     these are mentioned in this document?

20        Q.   No, generally speaking.  Serbs from Maslovare and other

21     neighbouring villages.

22        A.   Generally speaking, Serbs asked to be organised, that we should

23     be ready and not taken by surprise.  And most of the Serbs had been

24     incorporated into the JNA units active in the theatre of Croatia, which

25     were later on transferred to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Many

Page 1038

 1     able-bodied Serbs had joined the JNA prior to the formation of the Serb

 2     army in March.  Villages and hamlets were for the most part left without

 3     any able-bodied men.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 5             MS. KORNER:  May that --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             MS. KORNER:  May that be marked for identification.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, marked accordingly.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P75 marked for identification, Your

10     Honours.

11             MS. KORNER:  Could we have the next one up which again is a Milos

12     report.  This is on our 65 ter list, 688.

13        Q.   This is dated the 9th of June and begins:

14              "Following our proposals and the proposals of others, the SDS is

15     due to start operation soon with the aim of taking over power in the

16     Kotor Varos area ..."

17             Now, did you intend to start an operation by the 9th of June to

18     take over power?

19        A.   We already were in power.  And as for any takeover of power, that

20     could be interpreted this or that way, but on the 9th I don't think we

21     were ready, and we knew that on the 11th we would be taking over anything

22     from someone else.  In particular given that we had that for the most

23     part, but that power, those authorities were not functioning in the times

24     I have already said.  On the 9th or 10th, yes, there was a decision or an

25     operation planned, but it existed -- such decisions existed on all sides.

Page 1039

 1     It was only a matter of time who would move first.

 2        Q.   All right.  Stop for a moment, please, because I think there is a

 3     mistake on the transcript.  You said as for any takeover of power, that

 4     could be interpreted this or that way, but on the 9th I don't think we

 5     were ready and we knew on the 9th we would be taking over anything from

 6     someone else.  I thought you said that you knew you were taking over

 7     power on the 11th of June.

 8        A.   I cannot tell you precisely on what day, but I don't think it was

 9     on the 9th.

10        Q.   It was on the 11th, sir, as we will see.  But please, sir --

11        A.   Yes, the 11th, but I'm trying to correlate that to what was put

12     to me, that we knew on the 9th that what we would be doing on the 11th.

13     This is something that I cannot confirm.

14        Q.   An operation with the aim of taking over power.  Were you about

15     to mount an operation to take over power?

16        A.   Yes.  We were getting ready to take over power, as did the

17     representatives of the other two ethnicities.

18        Q.   And how were you planning to take over power, in the teeth as you

19     say -- as there would have been opposition from the legally elected SDA

20     and HDZ representatives?

21        A.   Nothing spectacular happened.  There were TO units.  There were

22     police structures, and in the municipality the authorities no longer

23     functioned.  In the course of those few days, the Crisis Staff took over

24     some of the remit of the former authorities.

25        Q.   All right.  Well, let's -- can we look, please, at the second

Page 1040

 1     part of this note.

 2              "This operation should be carried out in a synchronised manner

 3     with the help of Banja Luka CSB."

 4             And:  "We shall keep abreast of everything ..."

 5             Was the operation carried out with the help of the CSB?

 6        A.   Yes, it is correct.  We asked for the Banja Luka CSB's help, and

 7     I have in mind the Crisis Staff and other bodies of the municipalities.

 8     I have explained the reasons for that already.

 9        Q.   And what help did the Banja Luka CSB provide you with?

10        A.   Primarily in personnel.  It was obvious that we were

11     short-staffed.  As I've said already, most able-bodied Serbs had been put

12     into different units in the various fronts and theatres around us.

13     Therefore, with additional reinforcements we could not take over power

14     and preserve peace and the functioning of institutions in the town.

15        Q.   And who -- and what kind of police or personnel did CSB Banja

16     Luka provide you with?

17        A.   I don't know what you have in mind specifically.  Police units

18     comprising some good guys was sent in.  That's what I can tell you.  But

19     as for any other specifics such as its name or who commanded it, that is

20     something I cannot tell you.

21        Q.   Really?  Because you had a lot of dealings with the unit they

22     sent in later, didn't you?  You're sure you can't tell us the name of the

23     unit or the type or who was leading it?

24        A.   If you want me to say that it was a special unit, then I say yes,

25     it was.  During the days you are referring to, I don't know who led the

Page 1041

 1     unit.

 2        Q.   All right.  It's not what I want you to say, sir.  It's -- you

 3     were there.  Who actually or what the unit was that came.  So was it the

 4     Special Police?

 5        A.   As I said already, it was a well-trained unit.  Perhaps a special

 6     unit.  Yes, a Special Police unit.  To repeat, I don't know who was at

 7     the helm at that moment.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  How big was the unit?  How many special policemen

 9     did it include?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I don't know that either.  I don't

11     think it was a great number.  Perhaps 30 or 40.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm going to ask that be admitted an

13     exhibit, because he's able to say what's in the contents is correct,

14     although he hasn't seen the note before, although I can get it in through

15     another witness, but I would like that admitted, if I may, as an exhibit.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, it's absolutely no ground to admit

17     this document.  Point number one, although this witness might give the

18     testimony regarding certain aspects of -- of the part of the report, it

19     is not enough to -- for admission when he said that first time he was

20     seeing here that he doesn't know what it's all about, he doesn't know the

21     source, who is the author of that.  In addition, again, I cannot say

22     because this is a -- we have to go to private session, but --

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. --

24             MR. PANTELIC:  The author is also on the list more or less.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Pantelic, I think this witness has commented

Page 1042

 1     on the contents of the document.  He's confirmed that a Special Police

 2     unit did arrive from Banja Luka as requested by the people in Kotor

 3     Varos.  So in my view, there is a sufficient link between the witness's

 4     testimony and this document.  I don't see a reason why we should not

 5     admit it.

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  First of all, Your Honour, there is no any trace

 7     or detail of mentioning of special unit in this report.  That's point

 8     number one.

 9             Point number two, these are all assumption of this witness.  Who,

10     how, which.  I don't have any problem with his testimony answering the

11     questions of my learned friend, but absolutely don't see any basis for

12     admission of this document.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  We take note of the objection by counsel for

15     Zupljanin, but we are satisfied there is sufficient of a nexus for the

16     document to be tendered through this witness and accordingly order it be

17     admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P76, Your Honours.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

20        Q.   Can you now look, please, at a document that's dated the 14th of

21     June with the number 10103.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm only going to ask him to look at

23     it.  I'm not seeking to exhibit this document through this witness.

24        Q.   This is a military report, and I just want to ask you about --

25     dated the 14th of June, the command of the 2nd Light Infantry Brigade.

Page 1043

 1              "Following the mopping up of Kotor Varos, part of the enemy

 2     forces and Croatian and Muslim population have pulled out to the broader

 3     area of Hadrovci village."

 4             What had been happening in Kotor Varos between the 11th and the

 5     14th of June?

 6        A.   It could be described as a period in Kotor Varos itself which was

 7     relatively calm.  However, in the course of those few days in the

 8     municipality, the few casualties occurred, the first murders which again

 9     happened on the Serb side.  People were taken out of their homes, their

10     families killed.  And a shepherd with his cows was intercepted and

11     killed.

12             In the town itself, though, there was nothing unusual happening

13     in the course of those few days, save for short bursts of fire and the

14     transfer of ammunition across the Vrbanja River.

15        Q.   Are you saying that in those two days the only people killed were

16     Serbs?

17        A.   I don't recall exactly when the first Muslim victim happened, but

18     for the first two days I'm certain that in the municipality of Kotor

19     Varos the initial victims were solely Serbs.  I claim that with full

20     responsibility.

21        Q.   So what do you understand --

22             MR. PANTELIC:  I'm sorry, again correction to the transcript.

23     Page 76 line 9.  Instead of initial villages, initial victims should

24     stay, because witness just stated it.

25             MS. KORNER:  I'm perfectly prepared to accept that.  I heard the

Page 1044

 1     witness say that as well.

 2        Q.   The 2nd Light Infantry Brigade was part of the VRS, wasn't it?

 3        A.   All Light Infantry Brigades were a part of the VRS, including

 4     this one, but I don't know anything about its war path and the extent in

 5     which they were included in combat.  I don't believe they were

 6     significantly included in the territory of Kotor Varos municipality.

 7        Q.   No.  All right.  But I'm asking about this mopping up.  Do you

 8     have any idea to what activity exactly this report refers?  Given that

 9     you were in Kotor Varos between the 11th and the 14th of June?

10        A.   Yes, I was there, and I don't know.  I don't know what mopping up

11     they had in mind.  There were no significant military operations in that

12     period.  There were no significant takeovers or movements of units save

13     for the sporadic murders which would later be followed by offensive

14     operations and combat such as those mentioned by this commander whom I

15     don't know.  He mentions a mopping-up operations, but in the course of

16     those few days he was not in the territory of the municipality.

17        Q.   Sorry, who wasn't in the territory of the municipality, the

18     commander?

19        A.   This unit.  Especially on the 11th of June.  Who is the commander

20     who signed this?

21        Q.   I can tell you.  It's a gentleman named Milos Kesic?

22        A.   That unit under that commander was not in the territory of Kotor

23     Varos.

24        Q.   You knew him, did you?

25        A.   Ever so slightly.  Maybe I didn't even know him, and I don't

Page 1045

 1     think I know him today.  I heard of his name being mentioned.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3        A.   I can't deny that.

 4        Q.   Well, let's move on then, please, to meetings of -- held of your

 5     Crisis Staff.  Can we move now to the 20th of June, which is 65 ter

 6     10106.

 7             These minutes, do you have -- if we go to the second page, is

 8     that your signature on them?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  I want to ask you just about one aspect of this.  The

11     bottom -- oh, sorry, could we go back to the first page on each.  Sorry.

12             Mane Tepic, can you tell us who he was?

13        A.   Mane Tepic was the commander of the TO staff in the territory of

14     Kotor Varos municipality during the multi-party elections and during the

15     takeover, as I believe you termed it.  He remained the commander of the

16     TO, which was within the structure of the former JNA and the Secretariat

17     for National Defence.

18        Q.   Bottom of that paragraph of his speech - we can just make it out

19     on the screen - he stated that:

20              "... Bakir Dizdar is staying in Cepak and has a certificate

21     issued by the commander of the special unit Samardzija on free movement,

22     and this should be checked at the SJB. "

23             Now, did you know Mr. Samardzija?

24        A.   I met him a few days after he arrived in Kotor Varos.  It may

25     have been on the 13th, the 14th, or the 15th.  I did encounter him in any

Page 1046

 1     case, but we seldom met after that.

 2        Q.   So certainly by the 20th of June you were aware of the name of

 3     the person who was in command of the Special Police?

 4        A.   Not even today I can say with any certainty whether this or that

 5     person was that commander.  I don't know whether it was Samardzija.  I

 6     cannot say that with any degree of certainty.  It was always my

 7     impression that it was Slobo Dubocanin or someone else.  But according to

 8     the organisation, I don't really have a clear opinion on who the

 9     commander was that I could convey to you with certainty.

10        Q.   All right.  I also should have asked you, first of all, about

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic, who is in item 1.  When did you first meet

12     him?

13        A.   I met Peulic a month before that or maybe earlier.  He was a

14     commander of -- he was the commander of a JNA unit when that unit was

15     engaged in Croatia.  Many able-bodied men under the then law and

16     regulations were mobilised into that unit from our municipality.  This is

17     how I met him.  Later on, the unit was transferred to the area of Kotor

18     Varos.

19        Q.   And he's telling you on the 20th of June, there were combat

20     operations in the area overlooking Vecici village.  So by the 20th of

21     June there were certainly combat operations going on, weren't there?

22        A.   Yes, certainly.  As I said, by that time there was.  I also said

23     that there was some conflicts as early as April.  In May, yes, by all

24     means.

25        Q.   Conflicts.  This is an all-out military and police operation,

Page 1047

 1     isn't it, against non-Serb villages?

 2             MR. KRGOVIC:  I mean, it's purely a leading question, Your

 3     Honour.

 4             MS. KORNER:  I'll rephrase it.

 5        Q.   What kind of operation was it that involved military and police

 6     against these -- Vecici was a non-Serb village, wasn't it?

 7        A.   Vecici was a non-Serb village, but perhaps a hundred or 200

 8     metres from Vecici they were Serb villages.  Just above Vecici, one of

 9     the first murders took place.

10        Q.   I'm sorry, I'll ask the question one more time.  What sort of an

11     operation was it that was going on against the -- here, according to the

12     area overlooking Vecici, which involved the military and the police?

13        A.   I don't know when the operation took place.  In the area of

14     Vecici there were several operations and lots of combat.  It lasted for

15     quite some time, as of, say, mid-June and all the way up to --

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You're being asked what sort -- what was the

17     magnitude of this operation that took place that apparently included both

18     military forces and police forces.  You're not being asked about when,

19     but what was the nature of this operation?  So please be precise in your

20     answer.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The fact that Vecici were not

22     cleansed at that time as some are trying to show is enough to indicate

23     that the military operation was not of that scale.  That there were armed

24     formations and lots of weapons in the village of Vecici and that they

25     were able to put up resistance or respond to any kind of military action,

Page 1048

 1     that is indicated.  I don't know what the thrust of this question should

 2     be.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the problem is in the

 4     question referring to police.  Nowhere is the police mentioned here.

 5     This is a military action, not a military police action.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours -- sorry, there's going to be evidence

 7     about this, but I'll move on.

 8        Q.   Finally -- well, two questions:  Firstly, Mr. Tepic, the chief of

 9     the police, is talking -- is briefing the Crisis Staff on the number of

10     weapons returned yesterday, and said that a total of 14 guns were

11     returned.

12             There was, was there, some kind of a weapons collection going on

13     from non-Serbs?

14        A.   The action of collection of weapons from all members who were

15     living but were not members of the military was something that happened

16     quite frequently and happened in that period as well.  It's quite normal

17     that in certain areas where there was no combat activity it was requested

18     that people be disarmed so that one could make sure that there would be

19     no fighting and no conflicts.  I think that that's what that referred to.

20     And I know that we declared such moves.

21        Q.   Were any weapons collected from Serbs?

22        A.   I've already said that.  Out of all those who were not military

23     engaged and happened to possess weapons.

24        Q.   That's not an answer to my question.  Were any weapons collected

25     from Serbs?

Page 1049

 1        A.   I said that the weapons were collected from all, meaning Serbs

 2     too.  And as for proof of how much was taken from whom or such a list is

 3     something that I don't have.

 4        Q.   All right.  And then finally, and I think that will be finally

 5     for today, tell the Court what happened to Anto -- Anto Mandic.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  The witness just raised his hand.  Did he -- was he

 7     attempting to answer your question, or did he want to volunteer something

 8     to the Chamber?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  I wanted to make an addition

10     to my answer.  In these reports, when you look at them, and perhaps you

11     might skip that but the Crisis Staff is in one place asking for weapons

12     to be returned to a Muslim in order for him to be able to protect his

13     company that was being guarded by members of the police and Army of

14     Republika Srpska.  Things like that happened as well.  And also, things

15     like that are mentioned in these reports.

16             This is what I wanted to emphasise.  I feel that this is also

17     very important.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   Don't worry, Mr. Djekanovic, I have not forgotten that.

20             MS. KORNER:  Mr. Pantelic, unless it's really urgent could I

21     finish my last topic.  Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE HALL:  It's that time, Ms. Korner.

23             MS. KORNER:  All right.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment to --

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, just if you permit me.  In

Page 1050

 1     light of the fact that we have a morning session and that we have to

 2     prepare for cross-examination, I just am wondering if it's possible to

 3     have today extended hours for half an hour so that Defence will be in

 4     better situation to cover many things.  Otherwise, we shall be in sort of

 5     unfair position tomorrow, because we are going to listen this witness,

 6     and during his chief we have to -- to prepare for cross-examination.  So

 7     I kindly beg all participants, and I would like to thank in advance of

 8     our learned friends from interpreters booths to help as well the other.

 9     I'm not thanking in advance to our friends for OTP because they are doing

10     their job like we are doing.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, for obvious -- for administrative

13     reasons with which you may be very familiar, it is not possible to simply

14     extend today's sitting by a half hour.  We were wondering, and indeed

15     that is what we thought you were going to be asking, if it would -- if

16     your difficulty would be addressed by resuming a half hour later in the

17     morning, at 9.30 instead of 9.00.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  No, Your Honour.  As usual, we have many sleepless

19     nights, so we are ready to work, to do our job.  So it's not -- we could

20     perfectly -- even start half an hour before or as designated, but really

21     it's important because we would like to cover as many as possible topics

22     in chief so that we could be prepared for cross-examination due to these

23     changes.  If it's possible.  If not, that's life.  What can I do?

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I should say that -- I mean, all of

25     this is covered in the two interviews which the Defence have, and that

Page 1051

 1     was the last thing I was going to ask, whether Your Honours tomorrow,

 2     having asked for copies of these interviews, would want them tomorrow so

 3     we can make copies.  All right.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness -- sorry, are you through Ms. -- was

 5     there something else, Ms. Korner?

 6             MS. KORNER:  I think I am through.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  I would -- I would take the issue

10     with -- this is a viva voce witness.  I don't think that it's appropriate

11     that we have his interviews tendered.  Would it be an exhibit or -- I'm

12     not sure if I -- if I understand Ms. Korner.  I mean, we can talk about

13     this tomorrow, but --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we will.

15             Mr. Witness, your testimony is still not complete.  Ms. Korner

16     still has to complete her examination-in-chief, and then there's

17     cross-examination to follow.  Having been sworn as a witness, you cannot

18     communicate with the lawyers from either side, the Prosecution or for

19     Stanisic or Zupljanin, nor can you in your conversations with anybody

20     else talk about your testimony before the Tribunal.  Do you understand

21     what I've just said?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I understand.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

24             We take the adjournment until 9.00 tomorrow morning in this

25     Chamber.

Page 1052

 1                           -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day

 3                           of October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.