1 Friday, 9 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T.
7 The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Good morning. May we have the appearances for
9 today, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, Joanna Korner and Crispian Smith for
11 the Prosecution this morning. For the next witness we'll be joined by
12 Belinda Pidwell.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Stanisic Defence
14 today appearing, myself, Zecevic, and Mr. Slobodan Cvijetic.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, for the Zupljanin
16 Defence today, Dragan Krgovic, Brent Hicks, and Eric Tully.
17 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Thank you. Before the
18 witness takes the stand again is there any --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. Before the witness takes the stand again, is
21 there anything that we need address?
22 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour. I think we are all aware of the --
23 the change of order of witnesses from the e-mail correspondence yesterday
24 with the senior legal officer.
25 JUDGE HALL: Please have the witness back into court.
1 MS. KORNER: The only thing I'm asking, Your Honours, is I'm
2 afraid that -- maybe the court clerk can assist. We are having problems
3 getting to e-court at the moment, and I can't remember which document I'd
4 got to yesterday.
5 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 717.
6 MS. KORNER: 717, thank you.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE HALL: Good morning, sir, I would remind you that you are
9 still under oath.
10 WITNESS: NEDJELKO DJEKANOVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm told that I haven't exhibited
14 yesterday's -- I have exhibited it. Thank you.
15 And could I have up, please, very briefly 65 ter 719.
16 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, this is simply to note, isn't it, that on the
17 7th of July, effectively in accordance with instructions that came, I
18 think, from the Main Board or from the government, the Crisis Staff - we
19 can see it; this is set out in item 3 - was renamed the War Presidency,
20 but effectively the members remained the same.
21 A. I cannot say with certainty whether every person remained on the
22 Presidency. I also cannot explain why the term was changed from
23 Crisis Staff to War Presidency, because shortly afterwards, the executive
24 organs became functional again, including the Municipal Assembly.
25 Q. Yes, don't worry why, but this is purely so that the
1 Trial Chamber -- we are going to hear some more evidence about it to
2 understand what happened.
3 MS. KORNER: Could that be made an exhibit, please.
4 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P87, Your Honours.
6 MS. KORNER: Right. Could we have up, please, 65 ter number 720.
7 Q. Again another extract from the minutes, this time, as we see,
8 called the War Presidency, following day. And it says in item 1, the
9 work of the SJB -- due to problems in the work of the SJB, a decision has
10 been made to use the hall in the Pilana, the sawmill temporarily as a
11 prison, and he recommended that all detained persons be transferred
12 there. Can we take it from that that there were so many prisoners that
13 the prison that you pointed out in Kotor Varos and the police station
14 couldn't hold them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Bad question by me. No what? Is that right, that there were too
17 many prisoners?
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, you are just on the edge of putting
19 leading questions to this witness. And he is still just a normal
20 viva voce witness, so I guess we should ask the witness what he makes out
21 of this.
22 MS. KORNER: Certainly, sir.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already explained the issue
24 of Pilana, there is no proof that any detainees spent prolonged periods
25 of time in Pilana, those who were accommodated there spent only a short
1 time there and were mainly brought in for security reasons. As for any
2 grammatical or stylistic errors of the minutes, this is something I
3 cannot comment upon. But I know for certain that Pilana was not a prison
4 in which detainees were held for long periods of time. It was rather
5 used a as point from which they were sent onwards or to the other side.
6 MS. KORNER:
7 Q. Okay. That wasn't my question. That's why leading questions are
8 sometimes helpful. What was the reason, however, that there had to be a
9 temporary prison?
10 A. I explained that yesterday. The reason was that people in the
11 field were left unprotected, and frequently they came in themselves
12 seeking protection. One of the main reasons why people were put in
13 Pilana was precisely that.
14 Q. So it's these people, and they included women and children, is
15 that right, were being put into the sawmill for their own protection?
16 A. For the most part, yes.
17 Q. And what, to your knowledge, sir, happened to the women in the
19 A. As all other detainees they only spent a few days in Pilana until
20 there was a suitable transport or convoy for them to go to the other side
21 or to be exchanged.
22 Q. Did anything, to your knowledge, sir, happen to the women who
23 were in the sawmill, for however short a period of time?
24 A. At that time I knew of no incidents. Much, much later, I heard
25 that there were one or two rapings. I don't know what the exact figure
1 was, but I'm certain that it did not occur in great numbers and that it
2 did not happen to all the women.
3 Q. Why are you certain it didn't happen in great numbers?
4 A. I'm absolutely certain of that.
5 Q. But I'm asking you why you have such certainty?
6 A. Because it didn't happen that way, and it was not a mass
8 Q. How do you know that, sir? Were you there at the sawmill?
9 A. No, I never went to Pilana. I told you already that I know that
10 people did not spend long periods of time there, that they left rather
11 quickly, and I know from the people who were in charge that such things
12 did not happen on mass. I cannot confirm for the one or two cases of
13 rape, I don't even know who did that, but what I heard was that there
14 were one or two incidents of that kind.
15 Q. And who did you hear that from?
16 A. From this position I cannot tell you with certainty who I heard
17 it from. I don't know.
18 Q. Was this report -- well, Savo Tepic was in charge of the police,
19 wasn't he? Did he tell you about it?
20 A. It is true that Savo Tepic was in charge of the police, but I
21 don't know whether he told me that.
22 Q. All right.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness -- sorry, Mr. Djekanovic, good
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think I heard you say that the people who were
2 kept at Pilana, for the largest part of them, they came at their own free
3 will to seek protection; is that correct? Did I understand you
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one could say so. They
6 didn't arrive in Pilana. They came before the municipal building in town
7 seeking protection. Some of them were even brought in, in an organised
8 fashion to protect them. Some of them were accommodated in the hotel,
9 but then there were too many of them and the hotel was shelled, hence
10 Pilana was mostly used for the accommodation of precisely those people.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then why is it that the minutes of this exhibit
12 show that Pilana was used temporarily as a prison?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of terminology, I don't
14 know why someone used the word "prison." Several facilities were used to
15 that end for a few evenings --
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sir, you signed the minutes?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Although there is no
18 signature of mine, but yes, there you go.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: So they were words that you had either chosen or
20 accepted, namely to classify the Pilana sawmill as a prison?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that it says that it was
22 a prison. I do not dispute that. But I don't know to what end it was
23 used. If there is additional proof that people spent prolonged period of
24 time there and were detained there, then I will accept that, but I can
25 tell you that they were not kept for long periods of time there and that
1 they were mainly brought in for the reasons I specified.
2 It is possible that there were detainees per se, but again, even
3 they stayed shortly. And in particular, children and women were never
4 detained. They were never detainees; they were never kept in custody.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you know whether any separation was made
6 between those who were detained and those who came at their own free
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have no knowledge of that.
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. One final question on this aspect. When you heard, whoever you
11 heard from, that women had been raped, did you raise the matter with
12 either Savo Tepic or in any meetings that you had with Stojan Zupljanin?
13 A. With full responsibility I claim that concerning this incident,
14 the one or two incidents, I heard only half a year or full year later. I
15 was not aware of it as it was taking place. It could be that I only
16 heard of it a full year later.
17 Q. Right. And there in the second part of item 1 Dubocanin tells
18 you that a decision has been made for the special unit to withdraw from
19 Kotor Varos; is that right? Tells the War Presidency.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did he tell you who had made that decision?
22 A. No, he did not, and we did not insist upon knowing.
23 Q. Right.
24 MS. KORNER: Could that be made an exhibit, please.
25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P88 Your Honours.
2 MS. KORNER: Next could we have up 65 ter number 723.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the sake of full
4 truth, I wanted to say that the special unit that most questions referred
5 to was never used to guard or secure Pilana. I wish to make that known.
6 The members of the Special Police unit did not guard or secure Pilana.
7 They did not guard other secure any other facilities, save for those
8 where they were billeted.
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. How do you know that?
11 A. I told you that in the course of the proofing as well. I told
12 you they were not trained for that, and they did not wish to stand guard
13 or secure facilities. It was not their intention.
14 Q. I'm sorry, you didn't tell me anything in proofing because I
15 didn't proof you. But, sorry, it doesn't matter who you told or what,
16 but what -- why -- sorry, start this one again.
17 How do you know that they were not trained for that, did not wish
18 to stand guard?
19 A. We discussed that topic on several occasions, and I know that
20 along -- even along the axis or lines of attack which they pursued, they
21 refused to stand guard once they had taken up any territory, so they
22 would go into combat and come back. They always disliked securing or
23 standing guard anywhere.
24 Q. As a matter of interest, Mr. Djekanovic, have you spoken to
25 anybody overnight about this evidence?
1 A. No, no one. Yesterday, for example, I took a walk to the beach
2 and saw no one, spoke to no one.
3 Q. That will do. We looked yesterday at a number of documents where
4 there were complaints about what the Special Police were doing to the
5 prisoners at the SJB. Do you remember all those documents? The minutes
6 of your meetings?
7 A. All the documents we went through yesterday is something that I
8 use to jog my memory, but I don't leaf through them every day. Once I
9 came here and as I was getting ready for the testimony, I did go through
10 some of them, and of course those I saw yesterday served as a reminder.
11 Q. Look, I really don't want to rehearse all of yesterday's
12 evidence, but you agreed what was being raised at the Crisis Staff
13 meeting was the complaints about the behaviour of the Special Police
14 which included beating up prisoners who were being held in the SJB and
15 elsewhere. Now, are you now saying that is not so?
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's better
17 for Ms. Korner to show the exact document to the witness. What she is
18 now quoting to the witness is not something you can find in any
19 documents. The witness did not speak to this part. Perhaps she should
20 provide a transcript reference or the document she has in mind, otherwise
21 I contest that such things were not said in this way before this Tribunal
23 MS. KORNER: That is my recollection. I do not have the time now
24 because I'm anxious to finish with this witness in chief, but I will,
25 however, find the part of the transcript yesterday when I finish my
1 examination-in-chief. But I'm sure it's a matter for the recollection of
2 the Trial Chamber whatever Defence counsel may say.
3 Q. Now, are you saying now, Mr. Djekanovic, let's very clearly
4 understand you, that as far as you are concerned, the Special Police
5 never stood as guards over people who had been captured or brought into
6 the prisons and the sawmill?
7 A. I claim that in full responsibility, and I repeat for umpteenth
8 time, the special unit did not stand guard or secure those facilities.
9 Q. Whether they were officially on guard or securing the facilities,
10 to your knowledge, did they go to those places of imprisonment?
11 A. Who went where individually, that is something I truly don't
12 know. They did go to the police station, I know that much. In the
13 health centre, they had their accommodation. As for their visits to the
14 sawmill, I don't know about that. I don't know whether there's any
15 proof. I know, though, that in the sawmill, save for the few incidents
16 you mentioned, there are no other incidents. There were a few beatings
17 in the police station, but you were trying to proof that this was a daily
18 occurrence which lasted for months on end. At the beginning of certain
19 combat operations this things may have happened in the course of the
20 first few couple of days, but it didn't cover entire days and people
21 coming in and leaving as they wished. There were certain incidents at
22 the police station, but I wash my hands of that because there was nothing
23 I could do at the time. And I'm quite certain that they did not happen
24 on such a scale as you are trying to put.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Djekanovic, may I just remind you that you
1 are not being interviewed here as a suspect. That you are not being
2 charged or investigated in any way for your actions during the conflict.
3 So by virtue of this, you are required to tell the truth, and I should
4 remind you that there is a severe penalty for providing false testimony
5 to this court. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand you
7 fully, but I don't know whether you know that I was interrogated as a
8 suspect and that all of my statements and interviews were given in that
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: We are fully aware of your having been once
11 interviewed as a suspect, but that is now behind us, and you are no more
12 a suspect in front of these proceedings. You are a witness, and you are
13 obliged to tell the truth. Thank you.
14 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we move, please, to the 14th of
15 July, which I hope is now on the screen.
16 Q. Under item 1, we see that the War Presidency was concluding:
17 "...it was not satisfied with the results achieved so far and the
18 current military and security situation." Was further concluded,
19 "...that General Talic and Stojan Zupljanin have to be contacted urgently
20 in order to inform them of our dissatisfaction with developments so far
21 and task them with creating conditions needed to accelerate the
23 Exactly what operation did you want accelerated by the police and
24 the army?
25 A. I honestly cannot confirm what operation exactly this is
1 referring to, and whether it is actually referring to an operation. But
2 I can conclude that we were not satisfied at the time, and we were not
3 satisfied because almost throughout the entire territory in Kotor Varos
4 municipality there were conflicts, there were daily burials because there
5 were times when we would bury 12 to 13 people per day. And of course we
6 weren't happy with that situation, nor were the people happy with it.
7 There was no security on roads either.
8 Q. But an operation you want them to carry out, what was it that you
9 wanted the police and the military to do, and do more efficiently?
10 A. I don't know of any instance where the War Presidency requested
11 the military police to carry out an operation, especially not a military
12 operation. The military had their staff, of course, and --
13 Q. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, please. I'm not asking about the
14 military police, the military and the police. You were talking about
15 General Talic and Stojan Zupljanin. So what operation did you want the
16 military, full stop, and the police, full stop, to carry out?
17 A. The global request that we addressed to the military and the
18 police was to provide security and safety in Kotor Varos municipality,
19 and because there was a line of separation at Vlasic, we wanted them to
20 ensure that there was security on the entire -- in the entire area of the
21 municipality. But we did not request any operation nor did we
22 specifically ask for any operation or mention it.
23 Q. So it did nothing to do with cleansing Kotor Varos of non-Serbs?
24 A. Absolutely, and I stand by that. This has nothing to do with
25 cleansing of the non-Serb population. And I told you that very soon
1 thereafter we engaged in the municipal organs members of the non-Serb
2 population to work for them.
3 Q. Yes, as cleaners as I recall. All right. Item 2 under the
4 second dot:
5 "Activities relating to moving out the population failed to meet
6 expectations. This task must be dealt with in a much more organised
7 fashion; an agency has to be established to handle these matters."
8 The word is "moving out," isn't it?
9 A. People were moving out and that was something that could not be
11 Q. "Activities relating to moving out the population," doesn't that
12 suggest that there was some form of the population being moved, not them
13 moving themselves?
14 A. I claim with full responsibility that no one ever ordered
15 actively an action to move out the population. There was a desire and an
16 activity people asked to leave. There were problems with it. There were
17 problems with the transportation of those people, with their protection,
18 and there were also problems with people already taking money away and
19 making people -- or making people cede their property to them, make them
20 sign papers ceding their property. And there were activities to that
21 effect to help those people, so that as they were moving out their
22 problems were as minimal as possible. And in that sense, we did -- those
23 were the activities, and I claim with full responsibility that that is
24 how we handled these things.
25 Q. Yes, I've already asked you about what happened.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made an exhibit, please.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P89, Your Honours.
4 MS. KORNER: Can we very quickly, please, just look at 65 ter
5 number 6 -- 728.
6 Q. Right, we've got the B/C/S on the screen now, so can you find the
7 part in that please, Mr. Djekanovic, where it talks about the
8 relationship between the army and the police, which is just -- it's by
9 the second dash -- third dash. Fourth dash, actually.
10 A. Could we just blow this up a bit.
11 Q. Fourth dash, which begins: "The relationship between the army
12 and police..."
13 A. Yes, I've found it.
14 Q. Why was the War Presidency concerned about where the involvement
15 of the army stops and responsibility is taken over by the police?
16 A. Yes, I understand your question. At some periods and at one
17 period of over a month and a half, we had a problem because there was no
18 joint staff or Joint Command and no coordination, so that frequently
19 there were overlappings of authorities and competence over those units,
20 so in that overlapping, of course there were problems.
21 I mentioned yesterday that we had people engaged through the
22 Territorial Defence who were supposed to be in the light brigade, the
23 Municipal Light Brigade under the command of General Galic [as
24 interpreted], but that unit remained without any commander for a long
25 time. And our intervention was in that sense, we called on General Talic
1 to improve the coordination, to improve the staff so that it is clearly
2 defined whose area of responsibility what is. And this is all that this
3 relates to, I don't know of anything else.
4 Q. Sorry, you said General Galic to begin with; was that right?
5 A. General Talic.
6 Q. That's what I thought.
7 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honours, could that please be made
8 an exhibit.
9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
10 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P90, Your Honours.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the next one is already -- it's not,
13 sorry, can I -- it's 65 ter number 10108, which will have to be marked
14 for identification.
15 Q. There's only one item I want to ask you about and that's item 3.
16 MS. KORNER: Could we go to the next page in the English, and
17 it's on the same page in the B/C/S.
18 Q. "The current issues that were discussed under this item were the
19 behaviour of certain individuals - members of special units, and a
20 proposal to Brigade command made by active-duty officers..."
21 We saw on the 8th of July, that Dubocanin told you that the
22 special unit was being pulled out, but on the 19th of July, it was still
23 there; is that right? Is that right, Mr. Djekanovic?
24 A. Slobodan said that it would be pulled out and not that it was
25 pulled out. It is correct that he said that it would be pulled out, and
1 it is also correct that it still remained there.
2 Q. And still causing you problems apparently?
3 A. The unit it itself was not causing problems; it was individuals,
4 members of the units who were causing the problems, and this is something
5 we discussed yesterday.
6 Q. Yes, but those members of that unit had a commander, either
7 Ljuban Ecim in Banja Luka or Slobodan Dubocanin in Kotor Varos itself?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you complain to Dubocanin that he had told you that they were
10 being pulled out, and yet, here they still were, causing members of his
11 unit under police control still causing problems?
12 A. Yes, we did complain, certainly.
13 Q. And what was his reaction when you complained?
14 A. Well, I have to say, and you can see this from what we saw
15 before, it -- there was a promise that the unit would be pulled out.
16 However, a part of that unit was later on re-assigned and the number of
17 members of the unit decreased. Some -- a part of the unit was
18 transferred to another area, but some members remained behind and how
19 many exactly, I don't know, as well as when the unit was pulled out
20 completely from the town. But whenever there were problems we reacted
21 and asked for this to be stopped, to be prevented.
22 Q. Yes, but as we will see, it still was going on. So did you
23 approach again Stojan Zupljanin on whom -- with whom you were on friendly
25 A. I don't know on what basis you concluded that we were on friendly
1 terms. We were only on official terms, and I addressed via the CSB or,
2 rather, the station of public security and all communications with
3 Zupljanin were through the station in Kotor Varos. The private
4 encounters that we had a few days before does not imply that we had
5 constant private communications, that was not possible either because of
6 my or his work, but there was a chief of the police station and how
7 frequently he communicated with him and conveyed what was said, I really
8 don't know.
9 Q. All right.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be marked for identification,
12 JUDGE HALL: So marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P91 marked for identification,
14 Your Honours.
15 MS. KORNER: There is a mistake. Oh, I'm sorry, thank you very
17 Q. Yes, you told us yesterday - that's why I put it to you - that
18 you were privately friends. Transcript page 1128, line 7.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: And after that correction by Mr. Pantelic, that was
20 wrong. You can find that.
21 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move now, please, to 65 ter 732, very
22 quickly, because this is one you mentioned yesterday, or the day before.
23 And I think it's the last few lines in the B/C/S under item 3 that you
24 wanted to draw attention to. And if we can -- in the English, it's on
25 the second page of the translation. No. Yes, second page of the
1 translation, please. Second page. Third page, sorry.
2 Q. All right. Here you ordered the SJB to return a rifle to
3 Nail Hotilovic as he needs it to protect the enterprise. I think this is
4 what you were mentioning yesterday, that this was a Muslim?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what enterprise was he going to protect?
7 A. He and his family had a private business which dealt in poultry
8 production, and for many years this small business was in operation. It
9 was in operation during the way [as interpreted] and still is and is
10 rather successful. So the entire -- this entire farm or enterprise was
11 successful during the war, and they enjoyed the protection of the army.
12 And during the operation of disarming, he was -- his weapon was taken
13 away, and then we insisted that they be offered assistance. We insisted
14 both with the military and the police, and as you can see, this, too,
15 came about.
16 Q. He was providing food, in fact, was he? Poultry farm, you said.
17 A. Yes, he had a poultry farm.
18 Q. And those provisions were being used for whom?
19 A. Well, for the market, whoever used and needed food stuffs.
20 Q. So it wasn't that these were being given to the army or the
21 police, the poultry?
22 A. Well, in part there was probably that too, and I know that they
23 were even donors and that all their food was used. But that this was
24 under any kind of authority that this is how it had to be done, no,
25 that's not how it happened. They were more involved in purchasing
1 poultry from other farmers and they -- because they had a
2 slaughter-house, they would process this meat, so they really worked
3 together with other farmers.
4 Q. All right. I'm going to skip the next document because it's
5 already an exhibit.
6 MS. KORNER: Could that be marked as an exhibit, that was 732.
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P92, Your Honours.
9 MS. KORNER: All right, could we move, please, to the 28th of
10 July, which is 65 ter 736.
11 Q. Under item 2:
12 "The chief of the SJB has reported that the confiscation of money
13 of individuals who are moving out, it was established that it was being
14 done without anyone's order in an unauthorised manner, and this can have
15 a negative effect on the operation and the reputation of all of us. It
16 was decided that the money confiscated in this manner will be used to
17 help the families of the soldiers killed and other essential costs of the
19 Who had been unauthorisely [sic] confiscating the money of the
20 individuals that were moving out?
21 A. Well, there were instances and there was mention of these
22 incidents with -- by people who actually monitored this kind of
23 situation. So there were instances where without their knowledge money
24 was taken away from individuals, and this is what the chief Tepic
25 actually briefing on, and he asked that something be done about this,
1 primarily because there were such instances of money confiscation and
2 this was being abused --
3 Q. Yes, yes, yes, I'm going to stop you --
4 A. -- in some cases.
5 Q. I want to know -- the question I asked was, who?
6 A. In addition to Ljuboje Gavric, I don't know exactly who it was
7 who actually carried this out and who prepared lists of these people and
8 prepared their moving out. I can't recall all the names right now. At
9 this time it was Ljubo Gavric who was in charge of this team.
10 Q. Who, who was stealing the money of people who were moving out?
11 Who was doing it, not who was monitoring the moving out.
12 A. I cannot mention a single name with any certainty. Savo would
13 probably have more information on that because he was the one who briefed
14 on it. We did not really go in detail into how that was done, I really
15 don't know.
16 Q. The moving out, the convoys and the like, who was in charge of
17 security there?
18 A. The security of the convoy was provided by the police station.
19 However, sometimes they were escorted also by some members of the
20 Crisis Staff.
21 Q. Okay. So we've got the police and sometimes the Crisis staff.
22 Of those two groups, who was stealing money --
23 A. One of the members of the Crisis Staff. And I'm sure that
24 neither the police nor the others did that. There is no proof of that.
25 I'm talking now about the people who were preparing lists and making
1 records of the people who are moving out, and I don't know that there
2 were any thefts from these people. And in the convoy itself, I don't
3 know that there were any instances where money was stolen from them.
4 Q. Okay. All right. Let's just look at the rest of it. The money
5 that is being confiscated is to be used to help the families of soldiers
6 killed and the other essential costs of the municipality. Do you agree
7 that what we are talking about, according to Savo Tepic, is that money
8 has been stolen. Why wasn't it going to be kept or returned to those
9 from whom it was being stolen?
10 A. Well, first of all, we didn't know who it was stolen from.
11 Secondly, we didn't know when we would see those people. And in the
12 municipality in order to organise normal every-day life -- because there
13 were shortages of everything, food, electric power, fuel. So every penny
14 was there more than useful because it could be used to buy food and to
15 ensure that people could survive.
16 Q. All right. So anyhow, at this stage the Crisis Staff is
17 accepting that it is unlawfully -- or somebody is unlawfully removing
18 money from those who are moving out?
19 A. That is what we concluded there, that there were instances of
20 unlawful removing of money.
21 Q. All right. Okay. Well let's have a look at the meeting of the
22 next day.
23 MS. KORNER: Could that please be made an exhibit, and can we
24 go --
25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P93, Your Honours.
2 MS. KORNER: 65 ter 739.
3 Q. Under item 1:
4 "The problem of the police working unprofessionally in cases of
5 theft and robbery committed by members of the police, who are imposing
6 themselves as a force and authority in their own right, were debated."
7 Which members of the police? The police directly under the
8 command of Savo Tepic, or the Special Police?
9 A. I can state with full responsibility that when talking about
10 this, these were members of the regular police, or rather, the reserve
11 contingent of the police who were attached to the police station, but
12 these were not members of the Special Police. In this particular
13 instance, that's what it refers to. But as I've said before, there were
14 also earlier instances of members of the Special Police who did that.
15 Q. Right. Well, if that was a problem, and this you can say with
16 full responsibility, as you put it, were not the Special Police, did you
17 say to Savo Tepic, You are in charge of the police station, you must keep
18 these men under control?
19 A. Both I and the Crisis Staff had very sharp discussions with Savo.
20 He was a special man. He would not allow anyone to interfere in his job
21 and in his work, whereas he was -- he would readily remark other people's
22 work and their jobs. But as far as what was happening at the police
23 station itself, that was something that he was responsible for, and it
24 wasn't our responsibility. And of course, we did call on him to control
25 and have or provide -- ensure control over that police.
1 Q. You say it wasn't your responsibility, Mr. Djekanovic, but your
2 responsibility was to ensure, wasn't it, through the police, the safety
3 of the population in Kotor Varos, and if it was being reported that the
4 police were behaving unlawfully, shouldn't you have taken the matter
6 A. As for each problem that we were aware of, we tried to seek a
7 solution immediately. How successful we were under the circumstances, I
8 don't know. If we hadn't reacted as often as we did, the chaos would set
9 in. But we did our best under the circumstances, and we reacted to any
10 such incidents.
11 Q. Let's go please to, "The Following Conclusions Were Adopted."
12 Item 2:
13 "Commanders of the Special Police unit and other police
14 formations should be asked to provide lists of vehicles allowed freedom
15 of movement. Why did the Special Police have any say in who was allowed
16 freedom of movement?
17 A. No, no, no, this was not decided by the Special Police.
18 Yesterday I said that there were car thefts, that the majority of people
19 were mobilised for various police and army units. And of course in any
20 war zone there is no absolute freedom of movement, so there wasn't one
21 there either. I said that cars were stolen from abandoned houses, driven
22 to Banja Luka, but as for any special permit for movement through
23 check-points these were not issued bit Special Police.
24 Q. But the commanders of the Special Police unit should be asked to
25 provide lists of vehicles allowed freedom of movement, that's what it
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is
3 misinterpretation and misquotation of the document and the witness's
4 statement. I think that in the English translation it says that member
5 of the Special Police and members of other formations are supposed to
6 provide lists of their own vehicles, both official and personal in order
7 for them to be given permits to move around.
8 MS. KORNER: No, no, no.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to read the document in
10 the B/C/S as it is --
11 MS. KORNER: I object to this, Your Honour. It is not for
12 counsel to give evidence in this case. If he says he thinks there's an
13 error in the translation, he can ask the witness to repeat it and hear
14 what the interpreters say. He is not entitled to give evidence of what
15 is in the document, nor what it actually says. It's a matter for
16 interpreters and the witness. This is about the fourth or fifth time
17 this has happened, and I say I object to this.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I understand your objection and your
20 concern, but the appreciation that the Chamber has for the intervention
21 of Mr. Krgovic was a -- one of the accuracy of the translation of the
22 document and the interpretation, which I anticipate is a not unusual and
23 will be a recurring issue in these proceedings for obvious reasons.
24 MS. KORNER: I have no objection at all if counsel says in his
25 view there's been an error in the translation and he would like it -- but
1 what Mr. Krgovic is doing is actually - additionally, helping the
2 witness - but actually giving the -- what he says is the correct
3 translation. If he says there is an error, then it is open to him to
4 suggest it and not give evidence of what he says that is error is and
5 what it should actually be saying.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: I suggest we cut it off here and turn to the
7 witness. If he would be good enough to read out the part that is
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 2, to request commanders of
10 the Special Police units and other police formations to provide lists of
11 vehicles that shall be allowed to move.
12 MS. KORNER: Right. That is why I object to this sort of
14 Q. All right. So can you tell me why - I'll ask the question again
15 - you were requesting -- or, I'm sorry, the conclusion of the meeting
16 that day was that the commanders of the Special Police unit provide a
17 list of the vehicles?
18 A. In order for the people who were manning check-points know which
19 vehicles are legitimate, which vehicles are suspicious, or are being used
20 not for the appropriate purposes of army and police. And I mentioned
21 before, there had been car thefts and those cars had been driven to
22 Banja Luka.
23 Q. So the Special Police still have authority in Kotor Varos; is
24 that right?
25 A. I don't know which particular authority you are referring to, but
1 the Special Police had combat tasks issued by competent authorities, but
2 they didn't have any special powers. Apart from combat tasks, they
3 didn't have any other particular tasks.
4 Q. Okay. I'm going to leave that topic. Item 5: "That all buses
5 available in the municipality should be mobilised for resettling people."
6 Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And item 7:
9 "That persons moving away should be informed that they are
10 allowed to take with them not more than 300 Deutschmarks."
11 A. Yes, that's what it says in the document.
12 Q. Wasn't that confiscation of property belonging to people moving
14 A. Yes, in a certain way it could have constituted a certain
15 restriction, but under the circumstances, if a person had a substantial
16 amount of money on themselves, that would have created problems for
17 themselves as well. There were experiences from people who were moving
18 from other territories into our territories, so there was a reverse
19 process in place. Therefore, I cannot provide any justification or a
20 clearly -- reason why this should be like that. There were some
21 objections while people were allowed to take that amount of money with
22 them; however, except for certain individuals, the majority of the people
23 didn't even have that money.
24 Q. Do I understand you to be saying, sir, that if they had more than
25 that it caused problems, that you were restricting what they could take
1 out for their own benefit?
2 A. I'm not sure if you understood it correctly. I know that the
3 majority of people never had that much money, so there was no problem in
4 that respect. If this decision was applied at all, I don't think there
5 were any problems.
6 Q. What you told me literally a minute ago was, "if a person had a
7 substantial amount of money on themselves, that would have created
8 problems for themselves as well." And my question was: By that answer
9 are you intending to say that restricting the amount of money was for
10 their own benefit?
11 A. That was not my intention to put it that way.
12 Q. Well, then what did you mean by that answer? What problems would
13 it have created for them if they had more money than 300 Deutschemarks?
14 A. I don't believe that this limit on 300 Deutschemarks was a
15 problem for anyone. It was imposed artificially, the people who had more
16 money would have been targeted by robbers and other people who looted
17 houses and took people's property away.
18 Q. That's exactly what I thought you were trying to say.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much. Can that be made
20 exhibit --
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Djekanovic, can I just ask you while we wait
22 for the exhibit number, if anyone was asked to hand over to the
23 Special Police the excess of 300 Deutschemarks which they had on them as
24 they were moving out of Kotor Varos, what happened -- what would happen
25 to that money? You said it would be confiscated, but for what purpose?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This had never been handed over to
2 the Special Police, and it was not reported to the Special Police either.
3 There were a group of officials led for a time Ljubo Gajic [as
4 interpreted] who registered these things and who paid for the
5 transportation. But I don't know of any instance that anyone turned over
6 an excess of money. If anyone had excess money, they would have left it
7 with a friend, a friend or a relative. I don't know of any single case
8 in which a person handed over excess money to the Special Police, and I'm
9 talking about the people who were leaving. I don't know that anyone
10 handed over a substantial amount of money and that it was appropriated by
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would like to ask a question as well,
13 Mr. Witness. You said that the people who had more money would have been
14 targeted by robbers and other people who looted houses and took people's
15 property away, but, if I remember exactly, you said somewhat earlier that
16 this was never done by members of the police; am I correct?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Special Police members never
18 collected the money, nor was it their task to do that. I categorically
19 claim that.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, no, no. Did they engage in robbing and
21 looting, stealing property?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were such cases. Not
23 only by the Special Police, but, yes, initially they were a precursor to
24 this practice, but there were individual cases, members of the
25 Special Police took away primarily moveable property without any
1 authorisations, but there were all kinds of goings-on.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I just understand that for a minute --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry.
6 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, the exhibit is admitted and marked.
7 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P94, Your Honours.
9 MS. KORNER: It's all right. Thank you very much.
10 All right, can we move, please, to the 15th of August, which is
11 -- yes, this is a -- not on our 65 ter list, so it will be marked for
12 identification, 10109. I just want to ask about one incident there. The
13 last sentence, please, of item 2.
14 Q. I'd like -- so there's no argument about the translation, could
15 you read us out what it says in the original B/C/S, Serbian language.
16 Last sentence.
17 A. "Concerning a group of civilians who were taken from the Vrbanjci
18 sector, it has been ordered for them to be driven to Vlasic, and then
19 directed towards Travnik."
20 Q. Right. "A group of civilians taken from..." Now, you were
21 there, does that mean taken -- not a voluntary fleeing if you like, but
22 people actually taken out of, taken from?
23 A. When you said I was there, I don't know which particular location
24 you referred to. And, two, I attended the session of the War Presidency.
25 Q. Was what you were being told and what you then gave instructions
1 to do was that people had been taken from the area, not left voluntarily?
2 A. I would like to reiterate once again. I almost don't know of a
3 single case in which people were forcibly taken out of their homes and
4 taken away. This relates to the problem -- related to the problem in
5 Vecici. On several occasions groups of people were taken to Kotor Varos,
6 and they were asked to be moved to Travnik. Now, what I can say with
7 full responsibility, there was no forcible hoarding of people or forcible
8 transfer of people.
9 Q. It doesn't say, does it, a group of people who have voluntarily
10 left or have been fleeing this particular area? It says "taken." Now
11 are you saying that means that no force was involved?
12 A. I'm telling you that this group was taken from Vrbanjci to
13 Kotor Varos. You can interpret it in any way you like. Being brought to
14 a place doesn't mean that force was being used.
15 Q. Instructions were given that they be transported to Vlasic and
16 sent towards Travnik. So did you give those instructions?
17 A. I believe that the group itself requested that to be done, and
18 thank God we met their request because the majority of people wanted to
19 go to Travnik.
20 MS. KORNER: Could that be marked for identification, please.
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes, marked for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P95 marked for identification,
23 Your Honours.
24 MS. KORNER: Then could we have, please, exhibit 65 ter number --
25 sorry, lost my -- 20th of August. 1883. Item 2. Second paragraph.
1 Q. "The question of whether persons in custody should also be
2 permitted to leave was addressed, and it was concluded that a list of all
3 such persons should be submitted to the responsible office of the SJB
4 which would decide."
5 Two questions. It was the police who decided who would be
6 released; is that what this says?
7 A. I don't know if you can construe it in that way. Possibly.
8 There were people whose families were leaving, and these people were in
9 custody. And I think that the requests for their release could have been
10 decided by the police station or those responsible for judiciary. So
11 between these two jurisdictions, those who issued orders on detention
12 were actually the ones who could decide on their release.
13 Q. Is it your view that people should only be kept in custody if
14 there is a reason to believe they have committed a criminal offence?
15 A. As for the procedure of putting people in custody, I don't know
16 anything about that. This is not my province. Whether they were accused
17 or suspected of having done something, they were put in custody, but as I
18 say, I know nothing about that.
19 Q. Right.
20 MS. KORNER: Could that please be made an exhibit, and then could
21 we move to the 21st of August, which is --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P96, Your Honours.
23 MS. KORNER: -- 65 ter 745.
24 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, as you phrase your next question, we are
25 coming up on the --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE HALL: As you formulate your next question, remember we are
3 coming up on a break.
4 MS. KORNER: Item 2, second paragraph.
5 Q. Apparently this is you speaking, "... matters and problems to be
6 solved to the effect that the pressure and provocation by certain members
7 of the Special Forces unit directed against Muslim and Croat families in
8 order to compel them to leave should be stopped."
9 So a month and a half after Slobodan Dubocanin told that you the
10 Special Forces would be pulled out, they are still operating in
11 Kotor Varos; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And clearly you knew exactly what they were doing, didn't you,
14 because you are the one saying they were carrying out actions to force
15 Muslims and Croats to leave?
16 A. There were pressures on a number of families who were well off.
17 There were certain special relations between them. Some of them had paid
18 money very early on to certain individuals for them to be escorted to
19 safety. Some remained for a longer period of time and I had no
20 information about any individual cases. All the information that either
21 the War Presidency or my office received, we tried to intervene. There
22 were information sometimes that we received from members from other
23 ethnic communities complaining that they had been maltreated by this or
24 that person.
25 JUDGE HALL: It's a convenient point. We rise for 20 minutes.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
3 MS. KORNER: While the witness is being brought in, can I ask the
4 last document be made an exhibit.
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P97, Your Honours.
7 MS. KORNER: Can I ask again while he is being brought in that we
8 have on the screen 65 ter number 2872.
9 JUDGE HALL: And while he is being brought in, Ms. Korner, the
10 Chamber reminds counsel, and you in particular, as to the yesterday's
11 exercise in which it was canvassed whether a formal application would
12 have been made by the Prosecution to have the witness who is at present
13 on the stand declared hostile with all of the implications that would
14 flow from that, and as circumstances -- as things turned out, such a
15 formal application did not appear to be necessary. But it appears to the
16 Chamber from the line of questions this morning, and indeed from the last
17 half of yesterday that without such a formal application having been made
18 and ruled upon by the Chamber, that the Prosecution -- well,
19 specifically, you, Ms. Korner, may have slid into the position that you
20 could have been in or would have been in had such an exercise been
22 And the Chamber's reluctance to intervene in your line of
23 questions, which appeared to us to be leading and, indeed, argumentative
24 in terms of your own witness was because there was no formal objection
25 except for the two or three interventions by Mr. Krgovic on the point.
1 But we think it necessary to emphasise for the record that no
2 application has been made in this respect, and therefore, the Prosecution
3 should be reminded to adhere to the principles as to how questions are
4 led in terms of the witness called by itself.
5 Is the witness on the way in?
6 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think he is just loitering outside,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, he may take the stand.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 MS. KORNER:
11 Q. Sir, you've told us and we've seen from the documents that the
12 Special Police were in Kotor Varos for something in the region of at
13 least two and a half months. So I'd like you to have a look at a
14 photograph, please, which you've been shown before, and could you
15 identify for us, please, first of all Slobodan Dubocanin?
16 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think we better ask him to draw on this.
17 Q. If you want it zoomed in on so the faces are a bit clearer, just
18 tell us.
19 A. I don't know where this photograph was taken. I saw it for the
20 first time on Tuesday when I arrived. The people in the photograph are
21 rather small, so it is nearly impossible for me to recognise anyone with
22 any degree of certainty. The same applies to Slobodan Dubocanin whom I
23 cannot register on the photograph, although I knew him well. Perhaps we
24 could zoom in if there's sufficient quality, otherwise I'm unable to
25 recognise him.
1 Q. You gave us an identification on Tuesday, so I'd like you to do
2 the same again, please. We'll zoom in.
3 A. On Tuesday I said I think it could be this person, although I'm
4 still uncertain.
5 Q. Could you please mark which one you say is Slobodan Dubocanin.
6 Call him 1, please. Mark 1 by the man you say you think.
7 A. Whatever I do may be a mistake, an error on my part.
8 Q. I'm sure the Chamber will take that into account. Just mark
9 which one you think is Slobodan Dubocanin.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Sorry, Mr. Djekanovic, could you mark, please. Oh, I'm sorry.
12 A. I have.
13 Q. My fault. Now, could you mark, please, who Ljuban Ecim is, who
14 you think Ljuban Ecim is, number 2.
15 A. It is possible it is this person, but I'm not sure.
16 Q. Finally, please, Zdravko Samardzija.
17 A. He is the one that is the most difficult to recognise him. It is
18 possible that it is this person.
19 Q. Can you mark 3, please.
20 A. I have marked him.
21 Q. Yes, thank you.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that will need then to become a
23 separate exhibit, I think.
24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Djekanovic, I appreciate your explanation as to
25 your difficulty in identifying the three individuals that you were asked
1 to mark from the photograph. What I'm not clear about is whether your
2 testimony is that as best you recall they were part of this group that
3 was in the photograph, although you are unable to identify them, or
4 whether you aren't even certain that they would have been part of this
5 group. Do you understand my question?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand it. First of all, I'm
7 not certain that this entire group as shown here was in Kotor Varos. I
8 have no proof of that. Secondly, I knew all three, Slobodan Dubocanin
9 better than the other two. I know Ljuban somewhat less, and at least I
10 knew Mr. Samardzija. I'm not saying that I could recognise those people
11 now, but this photograph is rather poor. It is Ljubo Ecim for whom I can
12 say with certain certainty that he may be the person in the photograph,
13 I'm not certain about the other two. There isn't sufficient detail in
14 the photograph. If you have another one, I'd be glad to point them out.
15 I know those people, and that is not in question.
16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Djekanovic, if I can just have you
18 confirm, what the identity of this group? Who are they? Which unit are
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can repeat that I don't know what
21 group this is. This is may have been at one time the Special Police
22 group. I don't know where this photograph was taken. I'm convinced that
23 it was not taken in Kotor Varos. As for who all the members are, I don't
24 know, and I don't know whether this was the exact formation that
25 participated in Kotor Varos and how many of them did. But it is certain
1 that Dubocanin and Samardzija were there.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm asking about the unit as such. Are these
3 Special Police units, or are they army, or are they -- you know, which
4 units do they appear to be according to their uniforms?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is the Special Police
6 unit. Although I have to say another thing, there were some red berets
7 as well. I don't know what their establishment was, what their
8 composition was, and whether this includes any red berets which were not
9 in Kotor Varos. I do not question the fact that I do know these three
10 people, but I don't know what the exact formation of this group in
11 Kotor Varos was or compared to this photograph.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, what I am going to ask you is only
13 because I don't know. You said this could be Special Police unit, do you
14 recognise them on the colour of their berets? Or is that of no
15 importance? How do you -- what does permit you to say that they could be
16 Special Police? Is that the red berets?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During a period of time there was a
18 unit called the red berets; I don't know whether they were
19 self-organised. I believe they participated in combat in Croatia. I
20 don't know anything about the formation of this group. I don't know what
21 colour of cap was worn by the Special Police. We were short of almost
22 everything at the time. All units wore different kinds of uniforms,
23 mixed uniforms, but there was a Special Police group in Kotor Varos.
24 Some of them sported different types of caps, hats, uniforms. I cannot
25 tell you with any certainty that indeed this group came in with this
1 precise type of cap.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
4 MS. KORNER: Could that be made an exhibit now, please,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P98, Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER: Next could we have up --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MS. KORNER: 746.
11 Q. Do you recognise this document -- maybe not this particular
12 gentleman, but do you recognise the document, Mr. Djekanovic?
13 A. When I see it I can recognise it and I do not dispute it. There
14 were different kinds of documents as statements, but I don't deny that
15 I'm familiar with this document.
16 Q. And it's a document, wasn't it, that had to be signed by people
17 who were leaving the municipality. This gentleman, Mr. Safet Smajlovic,
18 I think that was his father's name. No, first name -- yeah. It was his
19 name, sorry, and his father's name was Ibro. A Muslim; is that right?
20 A. Yes. He is definitely a Muslim. I don't know him but he is
22 Q. And he says, I declare I'm voluntarily leaving Kotor Varos for
23 the following reasons, I wish to move away and I leave behind my land in
24 Kotor and my destroyed house. And then he declares that he won't join
25 any armed formations. And three copies, one of which sent to the Crisis
1 Staff, one to the population resettlement agency, and one to the
2 Autonomous Region of Krajina. Just on that a last matter --
3 MS. KORNER: Sorry, we need the English to go further down,
4 please. Thank you.
5 Q. Was the Autonomous Region of Krajina saying that any records of
6 people leaving had to be sent up to them?
7 A. Your Honours, I do not dispute the authenticity of this document,
8 although I see it for the first time. I know that such documents were
9 produced at the time, but I didn't know whether it was sent to the
10 autonomous region. That is something I cannot say with any certainty.
11 In the different stages of resettlement and in different periods of time,
12 there were different types of registering such people and registering
13 their data. For awhile, that wasn't even done. At a certain stage we
14 wanted to introduce more order and then such statements were being taken.
15 To repeat, I do not dispute that the agency as such forwarded such
16 documents to the Crisis staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. I do
17 not question that.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made an exhibit.
20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P99.
23 MS. KORNER: Could we now move to the -- so sorry, Your Honour,
24 I'm just checking. I think I may have made a mistake. No, I think I've
25 made a mistake, it's not on the list. Yes, sorry it is. 65 ter 10111.
1 Again, it will be marked for identification, Your Honours. Item 4,
2 please, in English, bottom of the first page and over the next.
3 Q. "Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic requested the War Presidency to
4 give its position on including Muslims and Croats in units of the Army of
5 the Serbian Republic
6 issue is concerned, loyal Muslims and Croats who so request should be
7 assigned on an individual basis."
8 And then:
9 "Savo Tepic said that a similar problem also exists in the police
10 but he believes that it is not yet the right time for including Muslims
11 and Croats in this organ and this should wait for awhile."
12 Now, you told us yesterday that Muslims remained in the police in
13 September from what Mr. Tepic was saying; was that right?
14 A. I don't know how you understood my words yesterday. My answer
15 did not refer to a certain period of time specifically. I do know,
16 however, that as of the beginning and until his retirement, Rada Tatar
17 remained with the police later on when the reserve police force was being
18 mobilised, because the police force in Kotor Varos prior to the conflict
19 was not numerous. When they started manning the troops, there were
20 certain Muslims who remained with the reserve police force. As for the
21 period prior to this session, I don't know what the situation was, but
22 I'm quite certain that those guys from Galici and the
23 Maslovare Detachment were with the with the police at that time. So to
24 repeat with the police there were certain Muslim forces, members,
25 although not numerous. There was this guy Jasko, he may not have been
1 there from the start, but he was engaged relatively quickly, and he
2 remained with the police throughout the period.
3 MS. KORNER: All right Your Honours, may that be marked for
5 JUDGE HALL: So marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P100 marked for identification,
7 Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER: Right, I've just got one last document I want to
9 show you in a minute, but can I just see if we can deal with the
11 Q. The village of Vecici
12 the beginning of November?
13 A. Yes, late October, early November.
14 Q. And is this right - and Your Honours, I appreciate I'm leading
15 but I don't think there's any dispute about this, and I just want to set
16 the background - there was a series of negotiations with the people who
17 were in Vecici, largely Muslims who were resisting?
18 A. Yes, there was a strong Muslim unit in Vecici, and the fact that
19 they remained there for so long is significant. Towards the end of
20 October the Serb losses in Vecici alone was over 50, only in that area.
21 It is also correct that there were several negotiations by army
22 representatives. I even participated during one of such events at the
23 bridge by the river from the representatives of Vecici when their
24 surrender and departure were being discussed.
25 Q. And then, is this right, that at the end of negotiations, and
1 there was an argument about how they were to leave, about 200 men tried
2 to escape and were captured?
3 A. Possibly that is partially true. There were far more people in
4 the village, civilians and military, and the negotiations were underway
5 and their final request was that they all be allowed to leave with their
7 Q. Good. But is this right, because I think you've said this
8 before, they were captured and taken to a school in Grabovica?
9 A. When the -- when there was a breakdown in the communication
10 between the -- within the leadership of Republika Srpska between the
11 commanders and -- of the army -- in the army, they did not allow them to
12 leave with the weapons, and they were not willing on their part to put
13 down their weapons. So one group was transferred -- or actually came to
14 our side and they were taken to -- from Donja Vrbanjci and transported on
15 buses to Travnik as was always the case. How many civilians and how many
16 people remained in Vecici, I don't know, but they were not arrested in
17 Vecici. They set out to break through the lines in several directions
18 from Vecici via Knezevo where strong military forces had there positions
19 towards Travnik, towards Jajce, and so on.
20 Q. I appreciate there is a long history to this, I just want to deal
21 with this one aspect. Were a number of them captured and taken to the
22 school in Grabovica?
23 A. Yes, a group surrendered and was taken to the school in
25 Q. Were you as president of the Crisis Staff informed and did you go
1 to the school on the day that they had been captured?
2 A. Yes, I was actually on site when they were transferred to the
3 school in Grabovica. I was already there.
4 Q. Right. And was it members of the army, not the police, who were
5 dealing with them?
6 A. Most of the people there were members of the army.
7 Q. Now, I just want you to look then, this is the final document and
8 final matter I want to ask you about, please, at --
9 MS. KORNER: The document number is -- it's the 6th of November
10 of 1992, 65 ter number 10116. Again, it will have to be marked for
12 Q. We see under item 2:
13 "President Nedjelko Djekanovic was in Grabovica yesterday
14 monitored the clearing up of the terrain and the cleaning of the school."
15 Was the situation that people had been captured or killed?
16 A. On the following day, in other words, the evening when these
17 people were brought in there, nothing happened. They were put up in the
18 school and they were searched. I believe some things were taken away
19 from them, maybe some watches or whatever, I don't really know. And they
20 remained that night at the school building. On the next day, the women
21 and children were put on buses and taken to Kotor Varos, and from there
22 on to Travnik.
23 A number of able-bodied men remained in the school building. I
24 don't know exactly how many of them. In the course of that day, there
25 were several killings, but I can't really tell you exactly what the
1 number was, and they weren't killed on the premises of the school itself.
2 Q. Well, Mr. Djekanovic, what this reads is that you went to monitor
3 the cleaning of the school. What did you find when you got to the
5 A. This was on the third or -- on the second or third day following
6 that. You see, when a number of people, I don't exactly know what the
7 number was, maybe 200 to 300 people, women and children, and as they
8 tried to break through the woods, of course they were not in normal
9 condition when they arrived, and of course there were -- there was damage
10 to the school building. There were many or some families who had lost
11 their loved ones at Vecici. There was also a number of people or a
12 number of families who received the bodies, the charred bodies of their
13 loved ones a few days later from Vecici. So you can imagine what the
14 general situation was like and what the atmosphere was like.
15 And I tried to keep things under control to prevent people from
16 taking -- from avenging their loved ones. And in the end the school year
17 was supposed to begin, and it was normal that we had to put this school
18 in order and prepare it for the new school year. And as was the custom,
19 I tried to actually visit and inspect all the schools and make sure that
20 they could start with their school year.
21 Q. Did you find any blood in the school when you went there?
22 A. There was -- there were some traces of blood, but there wasn't a
23 lot of blood. Maybe some people were beaten in all this commotion.
24 There was some blood on the walls; but that there was major beating up in
25 the schools going on, no.
1 MS. KORNER: Yes, that's all I ask. Thank you, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Djekanovic, what would ordinarily happen at this
3 stage is that the lawyers for the accused persons be invited to
4 cross-examine you if they wish, but for reasons -- for certain
5 administrative reasons we have to interpose a witness at this stage in
6 the course of these proceedings. And it is regretted that the
7 inconvenience to you would be that you -- you are not released now as a
8 witness, although you are stood down until possibly Monday or even
9 possibly until later next week.
10 So at this stage you are being excused from the courtroom but not
11 released, and I would repeat the admonitions that I would have given to
12 you on yesterday's adjournment and the adjournment of the day previous,
13 that because you are not yet released, you cannot communicate with the
14 lawyers on either side at all, and in terms of any conversations or
15 discussions you may have with persons other than the lawyers, it cannot
16 relate to your testimony -- to the testimony that you are giving. Do you
17 understand what I've just said? Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand fully
19 what you've just said, but this is a problem for me because I have
20 business to attend to and I have a family. But in any case, I have come
21 as summoned by the Court and I will comply with this order as well, but I
22 would also appeal to you to, if at all possible, try and complete my
23 questioning today. Of course if not, I can't do anything about that.
24 JUDGE HALL: Well, it is not possible for that to be completed
25 today, but I'm sure that the lawyers are not unmindful of your personal
1 situation and that when we return to complete your testimony next week,
2 that they will expedite matters to -- so that you can return to your
3 ordinary affairs. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 MS. KORNER: Yes, could I have it marked for identification. It
7 wasn't on our 65 ter list.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P101 marked for identification,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE HALL: And we'll now take a break for them to assemble the
12 --- Recess taken at 11.28 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.43 a.m.
14 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours. The next witness for
15 the Prosecution is ST-13. He has protective measures which were granted
16 sometime ago and they are facial/voice distortion, and pseudonym. He is
17 -- while he is currently being brought over, sirs, he was a Muslim
18 reserve policeman in Kotor Varos at the relevant time and is survivor of
19 the killings outside the Kotor Varos hospital in June 1992 that forms the
20 basis of his prior testimony and statement which will be admitted through
21 92 ter.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we wait for the witness to be brought in, I
23 have noticed that we are facing, and increasingly so, a problem of
24 timing, and I would like to suggest that sometime maybe next week or the
25 week thereafter, we sit down in a 65 ter context with the parties and try
1 to agree on a plan for the next couple of months as to which witnesses we
2 will have time to hear and when and for how long and so on. So if the
3 parties are ready to meet up with the Judges and the senior legal
4 officer, of course, for the purposes of planning for the next months, I
5 would be grateful.
6 And in accordance with this, I would like the Prosecution to draw
7 up a list of its witnesses for the next eight weeks. You can decide
8 when, but if you can put up the list by sometime next week, then we will
9 take a meeting soon thereafter.
10 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, we can accommodate that, sir.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: ST-13
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good morning to you, sir, and thank you for
17 coming to the Tribunal to give your testimony. For the purpose of just
18 establishing your identity, I would like to ask the Registrar to move
19 into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 1184-1185 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, madam.
5 What is going to happen now is that the Prosecution will examine
6 you first, and since you are being examined here under an expedited
7 procedure, the Prosecution will have only roughly 20 minutes, perhaps
8 30 minutes to go through your earlier testimony and your statements,
9 which we have all read. So the Court is fully aware of what you have
10 earlier indicated to the Prosecution's investigators. And after that,
11 you will be cross-examined on the basis of your statements, first by the
12 counsel for Mico Stanisic, which is counsel Zecevic.
13 And I believe that Mr. Zecevic has asked for 30 minutes; is that
15 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: To complete his cross-examination. And
17 thereafter you will be cross-examined, finally, by counsel Krgovic, who
18 has asked for, was it 40 minutes or 45 minutes?
19 MR. KRGOVIC: 30 minutes would be enough, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thirty minutes. Another 30 minutes by
21 Mr. Krgovic. And after that your testimony is completed, and you will be
22 able to return to your home after that.
23 So if you have no other questions to put, I suggest we get on
24 with it. Do you have anything that you wish to clarify?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very good.
2 The witness is yours, Ms. Pidwell.
3 MS. PIDWELL: I think we need to tender the pseudonym sheet
4 formally, if I could that under seal.
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P102 under seal, Your Honours.
7 Examination by Ms. Pidwell:
8 Q. Sir, do you recall making a statement to the Office of the
9 Prosecutor on the 15th and 16th of August, 2000?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And have you been given the opportunity to read this statement in
12 the past few days?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you confirm today that the contents of that statement are
15 true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. PIDWELL: If I could tender the statement, please, it's 65
18 ter 10015 under seal.
19 JUDGE HALL: Tendered, admitted, and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P103 under seal, Your Honours.
21 MS. PIDWELL:
22 Q. Sir, do you recall reading that statement and making some minor
23 changes before you testified in the Brdjanin trial in 2003?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, as you have requested the proofing
1 notes from the proofing for this trial, I considered it prudent to add to
2 the proofing note from the previous trial which simply were some minor
3 changes to the statement before he testified, so you have the complete
4 background of this witness's prior testimony. So even though this
5 proofing note was not in the formal 92 ter package, we didn't include any
6 proofing notes because we didn't think Your Honours would require them.
7 But because you have requested these ones, I thought it prudent to add
8 this one in as well, it was disclosed long ago.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Pidwell, we will allow it to be
10 admitted in the 65 ter list and included in the statements.
11 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour. That is 65 ter 10017. I
12 seek to admit that, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P103.1.
14 MS. PIDWELL:
15 Q. Sir, do you recall coming to the Tribunal and giving evidence in
16 the trial against Brdjanin one day on the 20th of June, 2003?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And have you been given the opportunity over the past few days to
19 listen to the audiotape of that testimony?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And if I asked you the same questions that were put to you in
22 that trial, would your answers be the same?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. PIDWELL: I seek to admit the transcript of the prior
25 testimony, 10014 -- sorry, 65 ter number 10014. That's testimony on the
1 20th of June, 2003.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P103.2, Your Honours. Under seal,
4 Your Honours.
5 MS. PIDWELL: And there are two proofing notes in relation to
6 this witness that I'd also like to tender. 65 ter 10016 and 65 ter
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P103.3, Your Honours. All will be
9 under seal as well.
10 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, there were five documents which were
11 in this witness's 92 ter package. A map, a certificate, and three
12 photos. These were not previously on the Prosecutor's 65 ter list but
13 were noted in the package as being relevant to understanding the
14 testimony of this witness, but in accordance with Your Honours' rulings,
15 as the Prosecution interpreted it, of 2 October we now seek to tender
16 these as exhibits.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, could you inform us what these
19 documents are?
20 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And perhaps show them to us because we have this
22 hesitance, you know, of admitting stuff that we don't know what is.
23 MS. PIDWELL: Certainly sir, we can bring them up for you. It's
24 a map of the town which is, when you read the testimony, is -- he refers
25 to it. And so that was why it was associated, so that when you are
1 reading the testimony you actually can follow with the document that he
2 is referring to. Same with -- there's three photos as well. So when he
3 is led through his testimony in the trial, he is shown these photographs
4 and describes certain things. And it was the Prosecution's view that
5 without actually having the document there, it would be difficult to
6 follow the transcript. They weren't previously on the 65 ter list
7 because we had taken the position that --
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand that they were not. But I did not
9 come across those photos when I read the statement, so I haven't seen
10 them. I would like to see them before we admit them.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 MS. PIDWELL: So 65 ter 3425 is the map that's referred to. If
13 that could be brought up, please.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I think this will enable us to
16 appreciate the testimony and the statements -- the evidence, sorry, the
17 evidence in the statement. So unless the Defence has any objections, we
18 would be ready to admit it.
19 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour. If that could be admitted
20 as Prosecution exhibit.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P103.4, Your Honours.
22 MS. PIDWELL: The next document is 65 ter 3426, and we may have
23 to go into private session in order to view this document.
24 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 MS. PIDWELL: Perhaps if I can assist the Tribunal. This is a
10 photograph of the Kotor Varos hospital.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Admitted.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P103.6, Your Honours.
13 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you. The next one is 65 ter 3428. It's
14 another photograph of a different view of the Kotor Varos hospital.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: And this is?
16 MS. PIDWELL: This is part of the hospital grounds and in his
17 prior testimony, he refers to it, in particular the tree. It may assist
18 you when you are reading the transcript through.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Admitted.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P103.8 [sic], Your Honours.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: 7, no?
22 THE REGISTRAR: .7. I apologise, Your Honours. You are right,
23 it's .7.
24 MS. PIDWELL: And the last one is -- finally, one more
25 photograph, 65 ter 3429, and this is the field behind the hospital when
1 it comes up. It's the field behind the hospital. And once again it will
2 assist Your Honours when reading the testimony to give some context to
3 where the hospital was and the layout.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Admitted.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P103.8.
6 MS. PIDWELL:
7 Q. Sir, I just have a few questions for you now. You were a reserve
8 policeman in Kotor Varos from 1979 until the end of 1991. Could you
9 please explain for the Trial Chamber the role of a reserve policeman at
10 that time?
11 A. At that time after completing my compulsory military service in
12 the JNA, all the young men and other citizens had their assignments. I
13 was assigned to reserve police. Our task was to join active duty police
14 in patrolling the town, to secure socially-owned or other significant
15 facilities in the municipality of Kotor Varos.
16 Q. And during the time of that, when you were first given the role
17 of a reserve policeman in 1979 and up until the end of 1991, do you
18 recall how many times you were in fact deployed in that role?
19 A. Twice. One time it was when the Yugoslav president, Josip Broz
20 Tito died -- or actually before he died, while he was ill; and the second
21 time was during the winter Olympic games.
22 Q. And in your statement you say that you were ordered to work for
23 the Kotor Varos police at the end of -- or in December 1991. Can you
24 advise the Trial Chamber who ordered you to work as a policeman at that
1 A. We received our orders from the chief of police, or rather the
2 commander of the police. Savo Tepic was the chief of police at the time.
3 Q. Sir, how were you told that you were now required to work full
4 time for the Kotor Varos police?
5 A. The Kotor Varos receive [as interpreted] police members received
6 papers calling us up to report at the police station in Kotor Varos.
7 MS. PIDWELL: I wonder if a correction needs to be made to the
8 transcript or if the translation was wrong. The page 56 line 2, it says
9 the Kotor Varos "receive" police members. I think it's supposed to read
10 reserve police members.
11 Q. When you were ordered to come and work for the Kotor Varos police
12 at this time, were you issued with a uniform?
13 A. I had my uniform from before since 1979.
14 Q. And can you just describe that uniform, please.
15 A. I had a winter uniform, colour blue, dark blue. I also had a
16 shirt and a tie.
17 Q. Was the material used for this uniform camouflage or
19 A. Non-camouflage.
20 Q. And were you issued with a weapon?
21 A. I was issued a piece of weapon in December 1979.
22 Q. And what kind of weapon was that?
23 A. An automatic rifle.
24 Q. And you've told us that from 1979 until 1991, you were only
25 required to form your reserve police duties on two occasions. The rest
1 of the time where was your rifle kit, the rifle that you were issued from
2 the police?
3 A. I didn't have a rifle since 1979. I received the rifle in
4 December 1991.
5 Q. Right. So from December 1991, where was the rifle kept when you
6 were off duty?
7 A. I kept it at home.
8 Q. Now, in your statement you describe a uniform with a flower on
9 it, the translation is a snowdrop. Which uniform had a white flower on
11 A. Olive drab military uniforms had it.
12 Q. And do you know which military or police formation wore these
14 A. They were worn by the members of the Territorial Defence.
15 Q. And just on that note, where was the -- do you know where the
16 Territorial Defence offices were in Kotor Varos?
17 A. The police offices were at the new police station, and on the
18 floor above in the same building were the offices of the
19 Territorial Defence.
20 Q. I'm just going to show you some photos in a minute, but just to
21 clarify the issue of your weapon, when you say that you kept your rifle
22 at home, was that -- was that the practice of the Kotor Varos police?
23 Were you in fact allowed to do that, or was it something that you just
24 did of your own accord?
25 A. We were allowed to take our rifles home at the time.
1 MS. PIDWELL: Can I please have 65 ter 3417, please.
2 Your Honours, this is a -- this is a compilation of maps and
3 photos which the Prosecution has put together to try and assist the
4 Trial Chamber with the witness in giving some perspective to the areas
5 that we're talking about. This is the first time we are going use it,
6 and the technical side of it may elude me, slightly. It's in sanction,
7 which means I think we control that, rather than the Registry.
8 Q. Sir, you'll see on your computer screen there a photograph. Do
9 you recognise that town?
10 A. Yes, I do. This is Kotor Varos.
11 Q. And can you describe -- do you know the name of the street that
12 is the main street that we see on the right-hand side of the screen?
13 A. I don't know the name of the street, but it leads from Banja Luka
14 towards Teslic via Vrbanjci, but I honestly don't know its name.
15 Q. In your statement you talk about being taken over a bridge. Do
16 you see the bridge in that photograph?
17 A. Yes, I can see the bridge.
18 MS. PIDWELL: I think I might ask the witness to draw on the
19 photograph, and I think I'm going to have to bring it up in e-court. 65
20 ter 10120.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't know what kind
22 of implement shall I use to do the marking?
23 MS. PIDWELL: The Court Officer will assist you, sir.
24 Q. Are you able to -- sir, with that -- the pen in your hand, you
25 are able to mark, to draw where you see the bridge. Are you able to do
2 A. Yes, I can. This is the bridge.
3 Q. So --
4 MS. PIDWELL: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I'm taking instructions on
5 the technical side of this. If we could note that 1 is the bridge that
6 the witness is referring to so that we can have an understanding between
7 the transcript and the exhibit. The witness needs to mark --
8 Q. If you could mark, sir, the bridge at number 1 so we can follow
9 the testimony, please.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Do you see the sawmill in Kotor Varos in that picture?
12 A. This is the direction towards Banja Luka.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sawmill is here.
16 MS. PIDWELL:
17 Q. Could you mark that with a number 2, please, sir.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Do you see the Catholic church on that picture?
20 A. Yes, I do. It's here.
21 Q. Would you mark that with number 3, please.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Do you see the Kotor Varos hospital on that picture?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you mark that with number 4, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And do you know where the SJB building is in Kotor Varos from
3 that picture?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And could you mark that number 5, please.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. It's not that clear from the photograph, so perhaps you could
8 assist us. The area between your number 4 and number 5, we see there's
9 an empty area without any buildings; what is that?
10 A. This is a football stadium. This is a school and -- an
11 elementary school, a gym, a secondary school, and these are the workshops
12 where I underwent training to be a blacksmith, and these are the garages.
13 This is the entrance from the main street to the police station.
14 Q. And do you know if that football stadium is a standard size
15 football stadium?
16 A. Yes. It was of a standard size except for the stands, because
17 there wasn't enough space at the time. Today it's bigger. But the size
18 of the pitch itself is standard.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Pidwell, shouldn't you ask the witness to
20 indicate where the football stadium is.
21 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour. I will.
22 Q. Could you mark the football stadium on there as well and mark it
23 with the number 6, please, sir.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Do you know where the municipal building is in Kotor Varos?
1 A. The municipal assembly is in the direction of Vrbanjci, but you
2 cannot see it on this map.
3 Q. Do you know how far it was from the SJB building?
4 A. Approximately another distance equal to the one that we see now
5 in the direction of Teslic.
6 Q. Do you know how far it was -- or it is, was, from the SJB
7 building to the Catholic church?
8 A. Well, approximately or maybe even more than the distance between
9 the hospital and the Catholic church.
10 Q. Are you able to give us an estimate of the kilometre or metre
12 A. If you take a paved road between 300 and 400 metres, or 500
13 maximum, if you walk this way. But I don't believe that the distance is
14 that long, though.
15 Q. Do you know where Savo Tepic lived in 1992?
16 A. He had an apartment at Bregovi, just behind the church in these
17 buildings here.
18 Q. Could you mark on the photo, please, where that is and mark it
19 with number 7.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Do you know where Nedjelko Djekanovic lived in 1992?
22 A. Probably in the same area, at Bregovi, since in that area all of
23 the apartments were state-owned.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, we are coming to the break. We have
25 to take the break at 5 minutes past, so if you could round up and be
1 ready by then, then we can take the break.
2 MS. PIDWELL: I'm in fact finished with this witness, sir. I was
3 going to seek to tender that; I think I have to tender it separately now
4 that it's marked, as an exhibit.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Accepted.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P104, Your Honours.
7 MS. PIDWELL: And I have no further questions for this witness.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. We will now take the break, and we
9 will adjourn in 20 minutes.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
13 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I know I indicated I had finished
14 with the witness, I have one question if I may be permitted to ask it?
15 Sorry, Your Honours. I'll repeat. I had indicated I'd finished
16 with this witness, but I do have one further question if I'm permitted to
17 ask it. It is just one question.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I am afraid, Ms. Pidwell, that if we are to
19 finish this witness today, that won't be possible. We have indications
20 by the Defence that they need approximately one half-hour, and that's
21 already -- we don't even have time for that. So I suggest that if we can
22 conclude the cross-examinations and there still is a couple of minutes
23 left before we adjourn today, then you can put your question.
24 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic and also Mr. Krgovic, I kindly ask
2 you to see if it is possible to conclude the cross-examination of this
3 witness before we have to adjourn today. The witness is yours.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sure we will be able it to accommodate the
5 Trial Chamber and the witness. But, just Your Honours, I mean, if
6 Ms. Pidwell wants to ask the question, maybe it's better that she ask now
7 because after that, we might have a issue with that and we will need to
8 re-cross examine.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's very well. I agree with you. But she's
10 taking off time from you and Mr. Krgovic -- are you allowed to give her
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well, Ms. Pidwell, quickly.
14 MS. PIDWELL:
15 Q. Sir, did you know a Muslim police officer by the name of
17 A. A Muslim by the name of Zahirovic? He may have been a reserve
18 policeman, but I don't know of such an active duty policeman.
19 MS. PIDWELL: That was my question. Thank you.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, as we speak the same language, you will
24 probably wish to answer as quickly as possible, but please wait a moment
25 since I need to turn the -- my microphone off first for the sake of the
1 protective measures. So please keep that in mind.
2 You told us that as of 1979, you had a uniform since you were
3 with the reserve police; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All other reserve policemen as far as you know, had their
6 uniforms at home as of the moment becoming a member of the reserve force
7 or be it the police or army?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So all reservists whether policemen or soldiers had their
10 respective uniforms at home; is that so?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were issued with weapons only when called up from reserve to
13 tend to a particular task; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said that as of 1979 until 1991, on two occasions when the
16 late President Tito was sick, and during the Olympics in Sarajevo
17 were called up from the reserve force. Were you then issued with any
19 A. Yes, but we didn't take the weapons home during those periods of
20 time; we only had them while we were on duty.
21 Q. If I understand you correctly, as the reserve policemen you were
22 called up from the reserve force, issued with a piece of weapon, and
23 while on duty you had that weapon, once you would go home, you would
24 leave the piece in the station and once again on duty, you would take the
25 weapon again; is that so?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. In this case in 1991, you had an additional, let's
3 call it, benefit, an additional courtesy because you were allowed to take
4 your weapons home?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. I see in the transcript of your interview or
7 discussions with the OTP dated two days ago that you said, as we were
8 notified by the OTP, that you were invited to give an oath or a
9 declaration by the MUP and that you obeyed.
10 A. When one is issued with weapons, one needs to declare that he or
11 she is going to use it only for the needs of the service and nothing
13 Q. So you are a reserve policeman, you are called up for duty, on
14 which occasion you were issued with a piece of weapon. But before
15 receiving the weapon, you give a solemn declaration, is that so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know whether you make the solemn declaration because at
18 the moment of being issued with a weapon, you are being accorded the
19 status of an authorise official, are you familiar with that?
20 A. Yes, as a reserve policeman.
21 Q. Thank you. If I read out the text of the solemn declaration to
22 you, do you think you would be able to recall it, or do you want me to
23 show it to you on the screen, that legal text of the declaration?
24 A. You can show it to me, but we gave declarations and made oaths in
25 the army and elsewhere.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 1
3 Article 42 in e-court. Forty-two.
4 MS. PIDWELL: I am sorry to interrupt, but we don't seem to have
5 received any notification of the documents that you are going to use in
6 cross-examination of this witness.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, I'm sorry.
9 I just tried before -- before this session to notify you that I
10 found in your proofing notes which we received yesterday only that this
11 issue pops up. If you don't -- if you are objecting to it, I can read
12 the solemn declaration. I just wanted to accommodate the witness,
13 nothing else.
14 MS. PIDWELL: If this is the only document, I don't have any
15 objection, but in accordance with Your Honours' practice or directions,
16 that if there are a number of documents I'd appreciate notification.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: That is definitely the only document, and the only
18 reason is that I want to accommodate the witness. Thank you. Can we
19 have it? [Interpretation] Thank you. You should leave it like this. I
20 confused the numbers, I believe. It is Article 41 actually that contains
21 the solemn declaration.
22 "I declare that I will perform the duties of an authorised
23 official conscientiously and responsibly. That I will abide by the
24 constitution and the law, and that -- could you please just leave the
25 document. We are having a problem, I'm reading from the document. I
1 told you that it was perfect how it was at the very beginning. I need
2 the last paragraph of 41. Thank you very much.
3 Q. [Interpretation] I will repeat, I apologise.
4 "I declare that I will perform the duties of an authorised
5 official conscientiously and responsibly, that I will abide by the
6 constitution and the law, and that I will protect with all my power the
7 constitutionally-determined system, the rights, freedoms, and safety of
8 working people and citizens, and that I will perform these and other jobs
9 and tasks of an authorised official even in the cases when their
10 execution may put my life in danger."
11 Is this the text of the solemn declaration you made?
12 A. I didn't make it, I received a solemn declaration binding me to
13 follow it.
14 Q. Is this the solemn declaration as I read it out to you?
15 A. Well, this is in Cyrillic, and probably at that time when I had
16 given it, it wasn't.
17 Q. Sir, the document I'm showing you is the law on the interior of
18 the Socialist Federal Republic
19 it being in the Cyrillic script, you know yourself that the
20 Official Gazettes in Bosnia-Herzegovina were printed in turn, one volume
21 would be in the Latin script and the other in the Cyrillic.
22 A. No, we were using the Latin script.
23 Q. Very well, let's not dwell on this, it is not in dispute, and we
24 have the document in e-court as Prosecution evidence. Can you recall the
25 text of the solemn declaration or not?
1 A. Yes, the solemn declaration.
2 Q. Okay. Did you make that declaration in December 1991 when you
3 were issued with weapons in the public security station in Kotor Varos?
4 A. Since we were issued with weapons, we had to make the
6 Q. But that was in December 1991; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I have no further
9 questions for this witness. Thank you.
10 [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
14 be asked to approach the microphone. We are having difficulties hearing
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. On behalf of Mr. Zupljanin's Defence I will put questions to you
22 in relation to the statement you made in the Brdjanin case. Sir, did you
23 at some point in time during 1992 sign another statement similar to this
24 one when there were certain changes within the MUP?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. After the signing of that statement there were no significant
2 changes to your duties until the conflict broke out in June 1992;
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You continued performing your tasks the way you had before
6 signing the statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In your testimony, in the Brdjanin case, you described in detail
9 the events in the health centre. I won't go into any detail, I just
10 wanted to clear up certain names with you and that will be the gist of my
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since there is a
13 possibility when discussing these names that the witness's identity be
14 put in danger or easily discovered, hence I would kindly ask that we go
15 into private session so as to protect his identity from the public.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we move into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 1207-1208 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, before you appeared in court today you had a conversation
6 with the Prosecutor and you mentioned that you had heard from someone
7 that Stojan Zupljanin may have been in Kotor Varos in 1992 in the month
8 of June.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You couldn't tell us who told you about this, and we understand
11 that in view of the time that has elapsed. And it's understandable that
12 you couldn't provide more details on this; correct?
13 A. That's correct, I couldn't.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
15 further questions.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Mr. Krgovic.
17 Any redirect from the Prosecution?
18 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
19 Re-examination by Ms. Pidwell:
20 Q. Sir, you were asked some questions about a solemn declaration
21 first of all by Mr. Zecevic, and then later on about -- that you signed
22 another statement by Mr. Krgovic. The second statement that you signed,
23 do you recall what that was about or why you were required to sign that
25 A. Well, these declarations or statements were almost identical in
1 their wording. This was just to once again confirm that the weapons that
2 we had on us at home, that we were not going to use them.
3 Q. And do you know why you were required to sign the oath or this
4 statement again, or make this declaration again?
5 A. I don't know. The purpose was probably the same as in the case
6 the first instance.
7 Q. You were also asked some questions about the identity of the
8 people who were committing the crimes outside the hospital, and I think
9 the term used was "locals." Were there any men there that you saw
10 involved in these crimes who were not locals?
11 A. I understood the question to refer to just the names that were
12 mentioned, the persons mentioned, but the other individuals were the
13 so-called specials.
14 Q. And when you use the term "specials," could you clarify what you
15 mean, please.
16 A. These were specially trained units with uniforms and caps on
17 their heads.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's request: Could the witness
19 repeat the last portion. He was not intelligible.
20 MS. PIDWELL:
21 Q. Could you please repeat the last part of your answer, the
22 interpreters didn't quite catch it.
23 So the question was when you used the term "specials," could you
24 clarify what you mean, and the interpreters have written, these are
25 specially trained units with uniforms and caps on their heads. Was there
1 anything else you wanted to add?
2 A. Well, they had hats on.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Maybe I can help. He mentioned -- [Interpretation]
4 Your Honours, I just wanted to assist because I did hear the witness and
5 I was trying to help the witness. Perhaps the witness can take off his
6 head set if you have a problem with this question, but I heard the
7 witness to say SOS.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] SOS, no. Special units.
9 MS. PIDWELL: It's just that this practice, sir, is of concern to
10 the Prosecution, the intervention of the Defence counsel when there is an
11 issue with translation, we don't have the benefit of the two languages.
12 And in my submission, it's not appropriate for the Defence lawyers to
13 step in, even if they are thinking they are assisting, to intervene in
14 the evidence that is coming through.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I realise that this may be a problem
16 that occurs frequently. If the Defence counsels have questions about the
17 interpretation, I suggest that you raise the matter, I think you should,
18 but please don't try to reformulate what you think the witness said.
19 It's better just to say that there is a problem and have the witness
20 repeat what he said. Thanks.
21 Ms. Pidwell.
22 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.
23 Q. Just finally, so we can clarify this point, your answer said the
24 special units had hats on and then there was some -- we required some
25 clarification on that. Could you describe the hats of the specials,
2 A. They had hats on, they looked like cowboy hats, and they had
3 camouflage green hats.
4 Q. And you've referred in your statement to someone who was
5 mentioned by the name of Dubocanin. Can you describe the uniform that he
7 A. Slobodan Dubocanin had a camouflage uniform on and a hat.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a problem
10 here. I never mentioned Mr. Dubocanin, that's number 1; and two, the
11 witness never at any point in his testimony mentions Slobodan Dubocanin
12 being outside the health centre. So I think that this was ever mentioned
13 in the cross-examination, nor does it arise from the transcript of the
14 witness as far as the events outside the health centre are concerned.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, can you clarify.
16 MS. PIDWELL: Sir, Slobodan Dubocanin's name is mentioned in the
17 witness's testimony. He was then asked about specific names of
18 perpetrators outside of the killing -- of the killings outside the
19 hospital. And my learned friend did not mention Slobodan Dubocanin, and
20 I am trying to show that by omission, he has -- he did not say the name
21 deliberately, and if the transcript is read in conjunction with the
22 cross-examination, you'll see that what the Prosecution is trying to show
23 is that this man was there. But the line of testimony showed that he
24 excluded the name and was trying to make it a finite group of men who
25 were there at the time. I'm sorry, it sounds a little bit confused.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: It is, actually. I still don't know if the name
2 was mentioned or not during the cross-examination, but obviously if it
3 was not, then that's beyond the scope of your redirect.
4 MS. PIDWELL: Let's leave it at that, sir, and I have no further
5 questions for this witness.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, when you tell us about special unit,
8 in your view, were they military or were they police?
9 A. They had army uniforms on.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I would have had the same question.
12 So just to be completely sure that I understood your answer correctly, do
13 you know if the specials were under the command of the army or under the
14 command of the police? That is to say, regardless of what kind of
15 uniforms they were wearing.
16 A. While I was in prison, we were told that the police could not
17 save us because we were held prisoner by the army. However, the
18 uniforms, the camouflage drab grey uniforms were army uniforms, or army
19 reserve uniforms.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. If no other questions are to be put
21 to this witness, I would like to thank you very much again for coming to
22 The Hague
23 testimony here will be included in the files of this trial and in the
24 judgement in the end. I wish you a safe trip back to your home country
25 or to the place where you reside, and you are now being excused and
1 released. Thanks.
2 MS. PIDWELL: Sir, there's just one procedural matter that the
3 case manager has just brought to my attention which I understand has to
4 be dealt with now. There was a portion of time when my learned friend
5 was standing up addressing the Court when his microphone was on and the
6 witness's voice would have been transmitted without the distortion. And
7 that piece needs to be redacted, and I understand I need to make a formal
8 application now for that occur within five minutes of it occurring.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Registrar, can this be done?
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, again, Mr. Witness, you may now leave
12 the courtroom.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner.
15 MS. KORNER: May I just raise something in relation to the last
16 matter. The complaint that Ms. Pidwell was making was one which I think
17 we ought to clear up. Certain limited parts of the transcript were
18 quoted from the Brdjanin case by Mr. Krgovic. He omitted the large
19 number of references it to Slobodan Dubocanin's presence and indeed
20 interrogation that this witness that also litter the transcript. If a
21 misleading impression is given in that way, either counsel can stand up
22 and ask Defence counsel to deal with the other parts of the transcript
23 that mention all over the place Mr. Dubocanin, or alternatively wait to
24 deal with it in re-examination. So to that extent that was what the
25 purpose of Ms. Pidwell's questioning about Dubocanin was. But if
1 Your Honours -- I know Your Honours got a copy of the transcript, you
2 will see indeed there's a whole reference that actually came out in
3 cross-examination to Slobodan Dubocanin actually interrogating this
4 witness, and also being the one that was present.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Korner. I must admit, I mean, I
6 was perfectly aware of Mr. Dubocanin's name being mentioned, but it
7 skipped me that the parts that were referred to by Mr. Krgovic were those
8 parts in which his name --
9 MS. KORNER: His name isn't mentioned.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so --
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my cross-examination
12 was related directly to the events outside the health centre. In the
13 evidence given in the Brdjanin case, the witness never mentioned the
14 presence of Mr. Dubocanin outside the health centre. And since my
15 cross-examination pertained exclusively to this incident, there is no
16 doubt that if the Prosecutor claims that this person was indeed mentioned
17 in this incident, let us please have either the page number or any other
18 reference, and that was the essence of my objection granted by the
19 Chamber. I asked this witness about specific persons whose name were
20 given, and the people who he recognised as the perpetrators of the crime.
21 However, neither in the Brdjanin case, nor in his statement that was
22 admitted into evidence there is no mention of Mr. Dubocanin. He did
23 mention him in the events preceding this one, but he is not highlighted
24 here as the person who was in charge or commanded these men who committed
25 these crimes. And that was the essence of my objection.
1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours have the transcript. I'm not
2 going to take this further and waste time, but that -- just so that the
3 explanation as to how this came about.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Korner. I think we can leave it
5 at that, if that's fine with you. We still have another 12 minutes, and
6 I suppose it doesn't make sense to call back Mr. Djekanovic for
7 12 minutes cross-examination. Are there any other procedural matters
8 that we should deal with? Sorry, Judge Delvoie has a question.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't have a question. I would still like to
10 inform the parties about the extended sitting in compensation of the 16th
11 of October. We will sit on the 19th to 20th and the 21st of October as
12 scheduled in the morning, and an extended sitting from 1445 to 1615.
13 Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: And we have Thursday -- the same extended sitting
16 on Thursday in reserve.
17 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I ask what that means, because obviously
18 we are lining up witnesses. You mean, if somebody -- a witness runs
19 over? All right. Yes.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: As you will see in the court calendar, Thursday
21 has been reserved with the same extended times, so if by any chance we
22 need it, we can have it. Otherwise we will just stick to what is
23 originally foreseen in the extended hearings for Monday, Tuesday, and
25 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. That will be very
1 helpful. In fact, I think we will need the extended sitting on Thursday
2 as well.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: We have to compensate four hours of the 16th, and
4 we can do that normally in three days, so the Thursday is extra.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I would just like to mention one
6 thing which we were notified by our clients. This extended sitting, we
7 understand the reason, and of course we have to make up for the time
8 which is lost for one of the days. But that extended sitting in court,
9 in fact, causes enormous problems for the accused. In a sense that if
10 they have extended sitting, they are deprived of a walk outside in these
11 days and some other -- there are some other issues, which I'm not
12 prepared, I just wanted to put the Trial Chamber on notice. So we might
13 want to discuss that during the 65 ter conference which you suggested.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Thanks, and I appreciate your
15 bringing this to our attention.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just also clarify one thing
17 because we are, I think, also slightly confused. In the light of
18 Your Honours' ruling about the admission of 92 ter statements and
19 documents, the last one, the one before this we simply handed in the
20 statement with the accompanying documents, and they were numbered by the
21 court clerk. In order to save time so that -- because obviously we are
22 all anxious to save as much time as possible. And I don't know how I
23 have the nerve to say that, but nonetheless I'm saying it. Would it be
24 possible for the case manager, Mr. Smith, to send to the Registry the
25 list and then pre-number them, so we only take about one minute or
1 something to do that.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. I think this is a matter that we should
3 discuss at the 65 ter conference when we get together at that occasion.
4 Our legal officer has suggested that if the Prosecution sends us the -- a
5 list of attached documents in advance, and also sends that list to the
6 Registrar, then the Registrar might pre-number these additional exhibits
7 so that even before we enter into courtroom, we know what they are and
8 what numbers will be given to them, provided they are admitted. That may
9 be one way of going about it, but I suggest that we take it up at the
10 65 ter conference.
11 Anything else?
12 I give the floor back to the presiding judge.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. We take the adjournment now, and we
14 resume in Courtroom II on Monday morning at 9 a.m. And I trust that
15 everyone has a safe and enjoyable weekend.
16 MS. KORNER: I am sorry, Your Honour, we looked at it, and we
17 thought that it was Courtroom I because of the videolink. Maybe I'm
18 wrong. I mean, I'm not sure how we can do a videolink in Courtroom II.
19 JUDGE HALL: We are scheduled in Courtroom II. We'll see what
20 happens on Monday morning.
21 MS. KORNER: Yes, we will.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of
25 October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.