1 Friday, 6 November 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Zupljanin not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
7 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
8 the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Good morning to all. May we begin by
10 taking the appearances, please.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. For the Prosecution, I'm
12 Thomas Hannis; joined by Francesco Rindi; and Crispian Smith, our case
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, and Tatjana Savic are on this
16 Defence team.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For
18 Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic.
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HALL: On Monday, I think it was, you did alert the Chamber
22 as to the absence of your client for the remainder of the week, and we
23 haven't forgotten. But the next step of the filing of the formal waiver,
24 hasn't occurred, and I just wish to remind you of that.
25 MR. PANTELIC: I will check, Your Honour. It really surprised me
1 because I know that on a daily basis my client is signing certain form at
2 the UNDU, but I will take a look into it and keep you informed after the
3 break. Thank you.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. I did have a procedural
6 matter I wished to raise concerning the next witness to follow, who is
7 ST-144. This is a witness with protective measures including closed
8 session related to protecting his identity, and to discuss the issue I
9 think I need to go into closed session because it relates to some
10 specific facts that came up during his proofing.
11 JUDGE HALL: May we go into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 2735-2739 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, sir. I will remind you that
13 you're still on your oath.
14 MR. RINDI: Good morning, Your Honours. To begin with, I would
15 like to tender into evidence the statement of Mr. Smajilovic, which is
16 65 ter 10073.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's still an
18 objection pending with regard to the second change to the statement. We
19 did not object to the witness changing some things in his name, but on
20 page 3 he provided an addition that we objected to and you said that you
21 would rule on that. We repeat that this is a way to introduce into the
22 statement some details that surfaced during the proofing of the witnesses
23 that you already ruled on.
24 I have just spoken about attempts to introduce into the statement
25 some things that we don't agree with, and I just tried to prove what the
1 objective behind such practice is.
2 MR. RINDI: Your Honours --
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, if I'm not mistaken, but please
5 corrected me if I am, the additional information that was brought up by
6 counsel for the Prosecution yesterday, as far as I can remember, was in
7 the proofing note on page 1, the two points that were made to change his
8 statement. And the first point was that his name was Ramis -- his first
9 name was Ramis spelled with an S and not a Z; and the second was a change
10 to paragraph 6 on line 8, where it says that there were approximately 100
11 soldiers and reserve police officers lined up. These were the two
12 changes that were introduced, and so your reference to page 3 confuses
14 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, if I may assist, it's probably because
15 in the B/C/S version of the statement, the sentence beginning page 2 and
16 finishes in page 3. This is a minor detail, I believe.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE HALL: The position of the Chamber is that these two
19 changes were allowed, and I think that the Chamber indicated its position
20 yesterday. But if that is unclear to you, the Chamber's ruling is that
21 these two changes will be allowed. And the ruling that relates to the
22 additional information contained in the next following pages of the
23 proofing notes were excluded from being added to the statement for the
24 reason -- Mr. Cvijetic, the reason why the Chamber ended up excluding
25 this from the statement is that the Chamber thinks that the additional
1 information in the proofing note was so substantial and so comprehensive
2 that we thought that in this instance the Defence might actually be
3 prejudiced by having to consider this also for the purpose of its
4 cross-examination, and that the choice was, therefore, either to postpone
5 the calling of this witness so as to allow the Defence more time to
6 prepare or -- and that was the option that the Chamber chose in the end,
7 or to have the witness called immediately and hear - Mr. Smajilovic is in
8 front of us now - and then to exclude the additional information, so that
9 the Prosecution is prevented from relying on this additional information
10 in the proofing note. And the price they paid for that is that
11 Mr. Smajilovic has now arrived to testify.
12 But this decision of the Chamber was based on the -- on the
13 assessment of the quality and quantity of this additional information.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said yesterday
15 it's our duty to respect your decision, but we also have the right to
16 object. You see that you already ruled. I thought you didn't. In any
17 case if a witness in his statement -- statement which read, "There were
18 about a hundred lined-up soldiers," and continues referring only to
19 soldiers, and if before his testimony here he adds the words "reserve and
20 active policemen" after the word "soldiers," this is an essential change
21 to his statement and channeling the statement directly against the
22 accused. That's why I said that your ruling about a ban on the use of
23 data from the proofing notes is being bypassed in this way, and that was
24 the essence of my objection. One of the pieces of information provided
25 during the proofing of the witness has been entered into the statement,
1 hence into the evidence in this way.
2 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, if I may assist. On paragraph 5 of the
3 statement that I am seeking -- that the Prosecution is seeking to tender
4 into evidence, the witness specified that the mixed unit which came to
5 arrest him was a mixed unit, in fact, and I --
6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Rindi, the Chamber has ruled. Why --
7 MR. RINDI: Well --
8 JUDGE HALL: And the -- the essential application is for the
9 admission of the document as an exhibit, and having so ruled, the
10 document having been tendered may now be admitted and marked. Let's move
12 MR. RINDI: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P314, Your Honours.
14 WITNESS: RAMIS SMAJILOVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Mr. Rindi: [Continued]
17 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, I would like now to ask you a number of
18 clarifications on the events that you described in your statement.
19 In paragraph 5 of your statement, you described that a mixed unit
20 came to arrest you. Can you please tell us who was it that carried out
21 the arrest precisely?
22 A. My arrest, or to be more specific, a reserve policeman put
23 handcuffs on my hands. His family name was Simic, and his nickname was
24 Cevap and he hailed from Orahovac. We were neighbours before the war.
25 Q. Did Mr. Simic explain the reason why you were arrested?
1 A. No. I asked him what was the matter, and he said, "This won't
2 take long. I'm taking you for an interview."
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bullet point 3 from
4 the proofing notes has been entered completely, and there is your ban in
5 place on such practices.
6 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, if I may make an observation at this
7 point. Your ruling on the 4th of November was that the Prosecution was
8 not allowed to lead with this witness any evidence which came out of the
9 proofing session which was outside the scope of the statement. The
10 questions that I'm asking the witness now are all questions which are
11 relating to events that the witness describes in his statement and that
12 are fully described in the 65 ter summary that we submitted to the
13 parties. So I am not departing from your ruling.
14 Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HALL: Please continue, Mr. Rindi.
16 MR. RINDI:
17 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, what happened after Mr. Simic handcuffed you?
18 A. After he handcuffed me, they searched my house, and they said
19 that if they found any weapons that they would set the house on fire.
20 And during the search they did not find anything except for binoculars.
21 And then the same group led by the reserve policeman Simic took me some
22 50 metres away from the house. There was a mini-van without any side
23 windows parked there. There was a windshield, and there was a driver
24 sitting in the van. His name was Nenad Vidovic, and he was also a
25 policeman. His father's name is Radovan, and his mother's name is Andja.
1 We used to work together in the same company called Drinatrans in
3 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, in your statement at paragraph 6 and 7, you
4 describe that you were put into a van and that you were then taken to
5 Zvornik. Did you go directly to Zvornik from Glumina?
6 A. No. They took me to a place in front of a coffee bar, Sumice, in
7 a place called Orahovac, about a kilometre or one kilometre and a half
8 away from my family house. As I arrived there, some hundred or so
9 soldiers were lined up there wearing all sorts of uniforms including the
10 uniforms of reserve and active police force. While I was sitting in the
11 mini-van, a reserve policeman approached me. His name was Pero. We also
12 called him Pjevac. I knew him from before, and he asked me what had
13 happened. And I said, I don't know. There you go. And then he asked me
14 then -- again, What is going on? And then he whispered to me to prevent
15 the others from hearing. He told me if they take you to Celopek or to
16 the Ekonomija, then only God can help you. And if on the other hand they
17 took you to Zvornik, maybe you stand a good chance to survive.
18 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, what happened after you had this short
19 conversation with Pero and you stopped at the Sumice bar in Orahovac, as
20 you just described? What happened next?
21 A. After that the black-haired guy who came with the group of
22 soldiers or police officers lined up the men and handed over duty to a
23 man called Kojo, but I don't remember his last name. And then I was
24 taken -- taken away in the direction of Zvornik.
25 When we reached a crossroads at a place called Karakaj, the road
1 left was leading to Bijeljina and Celopek and Ekonomija, the places I
2 mentioned; and the road to the right was the road to Zvornik. That man
3 Crni approached the van and Nenad stopped and said that he was taking me
4 to Zvornik in front of the police station, that is the parking lot used
5 by both the police and the staff of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik.
6 Q. And what happened at that point where you were taken in the
7 parking lot of the police station as you just described?
8 A. When I arrived at the parking lot, a certain time elapsed, maybe
9 half an hour, possibly more. Maric came. He was an active police
10 officer. He uncuffed me and took me into the building of the petty
11 offence court. It was only some 10 metres away.
12 There was a Sreten Lazarevic, who was a reserve police officer.
13 Q. When you were taken in the court, as you say, did they explain
14 you this -- did this Mr. Lazarevic explain you the reason why you had
15 been arrested?
16 A. No, and I didn't ask him either.
17 Q. Were you given a warrant of arrest?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, you told us that you were arrested and that they
20 searched your house. Can you tell us what happened to your property
21 after your arrest?
22 A. My property was destroyed. When you're talking about my family
23 house, it was burned, and another was completely destroyed.
24 Q. In your statement in paragraphs 8 to 17, you describe your
25 detention. Could you please tell us exactly, or precisely where was it
1 that you were detained.
2 A. When I was taken there, I was detained in the petty offence
3 court, or misdemeanour court, which is a one-storey building. And I'm
4 not sure how many rooms there were, possibly a dozen rooms or so, small
5 rooms. When Mr. Maric, the police officer, uncuffed me and handed me to
6 Sreten Lazarevic, the deputy commander of the camp where I was, I gave
7 him my driving license in which -- inside which there may have been about
8 200 German marks. I gave him my watch.
9 Q. And where were you taken at that point?
10 A. Then I was taken to room number 1 in the court building.
11 Q. For how long were you detained in room 1 in the court building?
12 A. About 20 days, maybe 25.
13 Q. And where were you taken next?
14 A. Next we were taken to the administration building of Novi Izvor
15 which was in the vicinity of the court building, actually across the
17 Q. And what was the reason why you were brought from the court
18 building to the administration building of Novi Izvor? Why were you
19 transferred to a different detention facility?
20 A. There were two reasons. One being that according to the words of
21 the people who had been brought to Celopek, there had been a massacre,
22 and so these people were transferred from Celopek to those rooms. And we
23 were transferred to the rooms of the administration building of
25 there, and the rooms were really small.
1 Q. You told us that a number of prisoners were brought in from
2 Celopek. Did you ever have any occasion to see any of those prisoners?
3 A. Yes, I did. I remember one man, Edhem, who worked for the same
4 company as I. He was a blacksmith, and he was wounded in the stomach.
5 There were also other people that I didn't know. They were mostly from
7 Q. And in general, what was the condition of those prisoners which
8 were brought in from Celopek?
9 A. They were in a very bad condition. They had wounds all over
10 their bodies. They had been beaten up, and they hadn't been provided any
11 medical care. So their condition was very poor indeed.
12 Q. Do you know what their ethnicity was?
13 A. I mentioned a moment ago that they were Muslims from the area of
14 Divice, mostly from that area.
15 Q. You told us that you were transferred to the Novi Izvor
16 administration building. How many people were -- were detained at the
17 Novi Izvor administration building?
18 A. On one occasion there were as many as 70 of us. And once it had
19 become too crowded, groups of people would be taken to Batkovic. That
20 was another camp at Bijeljina.
21 MR. RINDI: Could the Court Usher please display on the screen
22 Exhibit 3419.20. And could the witness please be provided with a pen in
23 order to enable him to make markings on the screen, please.
24 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, do you recognise the area which is depicted in
25 this picture?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Could you please describe to us what -- what area does this
3 picture depict.
4 A. This is a part of the town of Zvornik where there is the police
5 station, the municipality building, and the misdemeanour court. Also,
6 the administration building of Novi Izvor where I was transferred later,
7 and there's also the parking lot to which they had taken me.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Smajilovic. If we could please go in order.
9 Could you please mark with a 1 the exact location, the garage, as you
10 told us, where you were brought immediately when you arrived from
12 A. I said that -- or, rather, I spoke about a parking lot.
13 Q. Yes. And could you please -- do you recognise any parking lot in
14 the picture?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please -- could you please mark it with a 1.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And you also told us that you identified the misdemeanour court.
19 Could you please mark it with a 2.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Could you please mark with a 3 the Novi Izvor administration
22 building which you had identified a moment ago.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. You also told us that you recognised the police station. Could
25 you please mark it with a 4.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Is there any other building that you recognise there,
3 Mr. Smajilovic?
4 A. The building of the Municipal Assembly with the office of the
5 mayor and the professional services.
6 Q. Could you please mark that building with a 5.
7 A. [Marks]
8 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, I would like to tender into evidence
9 Exhibit 3419.20 with the markings that the witness just made.
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P315, Your Honours.
12 MR. RINDI:
13 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, I would like to direct your attention to the
14 police officers that you identify in your statement and who were at the
15 camp during your detention. You mentioned a -- an individual called
16 Sreten Lazarevic. What was his role in the camp?
17 A. He was the deputy commander of the camp.
18 Q. And how did you know that?
19 A. He told me himself.
20 Q. And what was his profession?
21 A. He was a car mechanic by profession. We worked together for
22 Drinatrans for some ten years, but he had even before been a reserve
23 police officer, both before the conflict broke out and during the
25 Q. I would like now to speak about Sredoje Vukovic, which you also
1 identify in your statement. In your statement you declare that he was
2 the commander of the camp. How did you know that?
3 A. Sreten Lazarevic told me so, and later on Sredoje Vukovic
4 corroborated that to me.
5 Q. Had you ever seen Sredoje Vukovic before your detention?
6 A. I knew him as a professional police officer. I lived near the
7 town, and I met police officers, including him.
8 Q. And while you were detained at the SUP complex, did you ever have
9 any occasion to speak to him?
10 A. On two occasions I did.
11 Q. And could you please describe to us what the content of those
12 conversation was.
13 A. For the first time we spoke about a piece of information that was
14 circulating that I was preparing to escape from the camp, which was
15 impossible to do, unthinkable. And then a group of police officers came
16 and took me to a separate room, because in the first room, which was in
17 the administration building of Novi Izvor that had been vacated and the
18 people had been taken to Batkovici camp in Bijeljina.
19 There was a man by the name of Slobodan who beat me up, and then
20 I reduced communication, my communication with the police officers. They
21 complained to Sredoje Vukovic.
22 Q. Can I ask you, who was Slobodan?
23 A. Slobodan was a reserve police officer in uniform.
24 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, you just told us about the -- one of the two
25 occasion in which you spoke with Mr. Vukovic. Do you remember any other
1 occasion in particular?
2 A. I didn't finish my account of the first occasion. Vukovic called
3 in Sreten Lazarevic, his deputy, and told him if something's the matter,
4 there are courts and there is the prosecutor. Let them probe into that
5 and see whether there's anything to it.
6 And the second occasion was when we talked at the time when I was
7 scheduled to be exchanged.
8 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, if I could take you back to what you just said
9 with regard to the first conversation that you had with him. He told you
10 something to the extent that there are courts and that there is a
11 prosecutor. To what was he referring to in particular?
12 A. He meant the story that had been glued on me. There were
13 inspectors who could have made an investigation about my alleged plans,
14 which were impossible to carry out. And if I, as an individual, had
15 attempted anything like that, the court and the prosecutor could have
16 done their job.
17 Q. And did he ever explain you the reason why you and other
18 detainees were detained there?
19 A. No, he never gave that -- gave us that information, and I never
20 asked him, but he once came to the room and told us that there were about
21 90 per cent of people there who had done nothing wrong, who hadn't broken
22 any law, and that it was hard to imagine for so many people.
23 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, in your statement you also identify three other
24 guards who were present at the detention camp, Mile, Sreten Ikonic, and
25 Dragan. Do you know in what capacity they were at the camp?
1 A. Inside the camp there were at least about a dozen police officers
2 working in shifts. They were guards, but they also took people away
3 during the day to collect or loot things from the houses of Bosniaks.
4 Q. What was the profession of -- what was the profession of these
5 three individuals?
6 A. Sreten Lazarevic was a car mechanic, as I said. Mile was a
7 waiter. Dragan worked at Glinica, I don't know what kind of job. And
8 Slobodan worked at the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Smajilovic. In the camp what was the role and
10 what was the function that these three guards had? I'm referring to
11 Mile, Ikonic, and Dragan? In what capacity were they at the camps? You
12 just told us what their profession was outside of the camp.
13 A. They were police officers, reserve police, members of the reserve
14 police, and they were guards who worked in shifts, round the clock in
16 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, in your statement you refer to active and reserve
17 police officers. How were you able to distinguish active police officers
18 from reserve police officers?
19 A. They wore the same kinds of uniform, but I was able to tell them
20 apart because this Slobodan worked with me before. And we're talking
21 about the police where I was born, so I knew maybe even 99 per cent of
22 the active police officers.
23 Q. Could you please describe to us their uniforms, how were their
25 A. They wore blue uniforms.
1 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, during your detention did you understand who was
2 it that was running the camp?
3 A. If you look at the command responsibility or something, then at
4 the camp where I was, was under the total control of the active or the
5 reserve police. So it was totally controlled by the police.
6 Q. In your statement at paragraph 11, you mention that a number of
7 individuals entered in the camp and mistreated the detainees. How were
8 they able, these individuals, to enter into the camp?
9 A. The people from outside could enter the rooms where we were
10 detained only if assisted by the police, because all the rooms - now I'm
11 referring to the misdemeanour court building - were locked from the
12 hallway. And at the Novi Izvor there were even bars which were also
13 locked, and the keys were with the police officers on duty.
14 Q. In your statement you describe beatings administered by those
15 individuals coming from the outside. Who was -- who else was present
16 during those beatings?
17 A. During every beating the one who was at the entrance was always
18 present, that is, police.
19 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, in your statement and during the course of your
20 testimony today you told us that you were detained at the misdemeanour
21 court. Could you please tell us where precisely in the misdemeanour
22 court you were detained?
23 A. The misdemeanour court was in the town of Zvornik. I marked it
24 here. There's the -- it's near the Municipal Assembly and the police.
25 They all form a kind of a hall.
1 Q. But in the misdemeanour court itself, in the -- in that very
2 specific building, where was it that you were detained?
3 A. In room 1, inside that room.
4 Q. How big was that room?
5 A. The rooms were small. I can't be precise, but I would say three
6 by four, three by three. The rooms were not big in any case, and there
7 were a few of them.
8 Q. Were you alone in room 1?
9 A. No. There was a time when there were some dozen people in there,
10 maybe even more, including me.
11 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Rindi, may I respectfully point out that when we
12 -- in ten minutes when take the break you will have exhausted the
13 45 minutes that you requested with this 92 ter witness.
14 MR. RINDI: Thank you, Your Honours. I have a few additional
15 questions. And with your leave, would I like to apply for about 15 more
16 minutes. Those are clarifications to events that he describes in the
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Aren't you -- aren't you treating the witness as
20 a viva voce?
21 MR. RINDI: No, Your Honours. I am asking clarification on
22 events that he described in the statement, and this is the procedure
23 under Rule 92 ter. I'm asking additional questions which clarify the
24 content of his statement. That was what the Prosecution was allowed to
25 do so far with the other 92 ter witnesses. I have a few questions.
1 Maybe I can -- I will try to -- I will endeavour to restrict myself.
2 Maybe 10 or 15 more minutes, if possible.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HALL: You will wind up by the break at 10.25, Mr. Rindi.
5 MR. RINDI: Yes, Your Honours.
6 Q. Could you please tell us the ethnicity of the people which were
7 detained with you in room number 1.
8 A. All those who were in room 1 were Bosniaks.
9 Q. Where did you sleep in room 1?
10 A. On the floor, and the floor was concrete. There was nothing else
11 on the floor, just the concrete floor.
12 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, in general how would you describe the condition
13 of detention at the misdemeanour court and at the Novi Izvor
14 administration building?
15 A. The conditions in the misdemeanour court were very bad. When it
16 comes to the sleeping conditions, we slept on the concrete floor. And
17 when it comes to going to the toilet, that was restricted to three times
18 a day: In the morning, around noon
19 Also, there was not enough food. We were also restricted in that
20 respect. There were two meals a day.
21 In the administration building of Novi Izvor, it was a bit better
22 when it came to going to the toilet.
23 Q. I with like now to move to a different topic, Mr. Smajilovic. In
24 your statement at paragraph 11, 16, and 17, you describe how detainees
25 were regularly beaten by individuals coming from the outside of the camp.
1 You described two particular incidents in which a man called Sasa and
2 another man -- ordered another man to engrave crosses on the foreheads of
3 prisoners, and another incident in which the group Sasa belonged to
4 forced some prisoners to engage in sexual activity.
5 Were there any other episodes in which individuals coming from
6 outside of the camp beat detainees? And if so, do you remember any
7 particular episode?
8 A. There were cases. I can tell you what happened to me in the
9 misdemeanour court apart from what was happening in the administrative
10 building of Novi Izvor. Commander Marko Pavlovic, the military
11 commander, that's how he introduced himself to us, came to the room and
12 told me to step out into the hallway which meant that I was only supposed
13 to cross the threshold, that was the only thing that divided the room
14 from the hallway. There was a man in uniform, in a military uniform
15 standing there. He was a tall man. And there was also a reserve
16 policeman whose name was Sreten Lazarevic. He was the one who unlocked
17 the room to allow them to enter. And that other man started hitting me,
18 the tall man in military attire. He started hitting me. He threw me on
19 the ground, and then he was kicking me in the chest. I still suffer
20 consequences from that beating.
21 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, when you were detained at the Novi Izvor
22 administration building, do you recall any particular incident in which
23 individuals coming from outside beat detainees?
24 A. There were other things as well, but at this moment I can't
25 remember. There were things happening on many occasions. They would
1 come at any time of night, and they would beat us. But let me just say
2 that they could not enter the rooms without the police giving them
3 consent to do so.
4 Q. I would like now to move to another topic. In your statement at
5 paragraph 14, you describe that detainees were forced to loot Muslim
6 houses. Could you tell us who forced the detainees to loot?
7 A. In the morning after we finished breakfast, the police would
8 come. Those were the same people who were in the camp serving as camp
9 guards. They came. They took people away, and they took -- took them to
10 abandoned Bosniak villages and houses, and they looted things from there,
11 ranging from technical appliances, building material, and other such
13 Q. And finally, Mr. Smajilovic, I would like to refer you to
14 paragraph 25 in your statement in which you described how your family
15 left Glumina in mid-June 1992. Could you please tell us what was the
16 reason why your family left Glumina?
17 A. The conditions were no longer fit for life, and the security
18 situation was intolerable. There was no protection nor my family and
19 others. My family as -- well, as many others, left, some towards Tuzla
20 others towards Belgrade
21 with three minor children went to Belgrade
22 area. He went to a neighbour's house, his name is Vidoje Vidovic, to
23 inquire about me, and he never returned from there. And to this very day
24 I don't know what happened to him.
25 Q. You described that the conditions were no longer fit for life and
1 that the security case was intolerable --
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Rindi, it's 10.25.
3 MR. RINDI: May I just ask the very last question?
4 Q. If -- could you please tell us why was that the case? Why was
5 the security situation intolerable?
6 A. Actually, they did not have any protection from anybody. They
7 didn't have access to shops, stores, the hospital. It was impossible to
8 get any of those services or to gain access to any of those things.
9 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, this concludes. I have no further
11 JUDGE HALL: We will resume in 20 minutes.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
15 JUDGE HALL: While the witness is returning to the stand, we had
16 promised a ruling on the application which Mr. Hannis had made at the
17 beginning of this morning's session, and the -- in the view of the
18 Chamber, no formal ruling is -- we decline to make a formal ruling for
19 the reason that -- whereas we understood why Mr. Hannis would have
20 formulated the application as he did, in the Chamber's view that
21 application was unnecessary. And for the reasons that we would have
22 already given, the information being merely a matter of detail and not
23 something new is something which the Prosecution would not be prohibited
24 from leading. So to the extent that Mr. Hannis would have anticipated
25 that there may have been a problem as -- the view of the Chamber is that
1 the witness could be led on this evidence in the way that he anticipated.
2 And to repeat what we said earlier, it would be for counsel for the
3 Defence to make of it in cross-examination what he wishes.
4 We would remind counsel, particularly in this case Mr. Cvijetic,
5 that the earlier ruling that we gave is that -- and appreciating that it
6 is difficult to articulate this in a way which would encompass every
7 possibility that may arise in the future, but the basic rule is that
8 where the proofing of a witness unearths or produces something which is
9 wholly new and so radically changes the nature and effect of the
10 witness's evidence, then the Chamber would do one of two things, either
11 to require the side calling the -- in this case the Prosecution, to have
12 the witness stood down in order for the Defence to put itself in a
13 position to adequately meet this new evidence, or as we ruled in the case
14 of Witness number 156, to prohibit [Realtime transcript read in error]
15 the witness from being led on the evidence. But to come back to the
16 specific example, and it is something which we anticipate is going to
17 continually arise, there will inevitably be differences in detail between
18 what witnesses say on different occasions. That's -- that's a fact of
20 Thank you.
21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. That's very helpful.
22 JUDGE HALL: Could we have the witness return to the stand,
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And could I just for the record say that in line
1 25 of page 27, I think the Presiding Judge said that the alternative was
2 to prohibit the witness from being led on the evidence. The verb
3 prohibit is missing in the transcript.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. I don't know whether the
6 witness is protected or not. I believe he's not. So good morning,
7 Mr. Smajilovic.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. I just wanted to check whether you were protected or not. If you
10 were, I would not have been able to mention your name.
11 Before I put my questions to you, let me just remind you, and
12 that is something that is no longer in dispute, that on the 15th of
13 April, 2004, you provided a statement to the OTP; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. However, having arrived here in The Hague, you corrected or
16 supplemented that statement to a large extent, as it were, and then you
17 repeated that had in your testimony so far. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come
20 closer to the microphone.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you then agree that your previous statement does not fully
23 reflect what you stated before and that you would rather have your
24 testimony be taken as your statement?
25 A. I may have said it --
1 Q. No, no. Please answer me. Would you say that your testimony
2 reflects the truth? Is that your choice?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you would not wish to use the previous statement as your only
6 A. Yes, that one with corrections.
7 Q. I have to tell you that you probably do not understand our rules.
8 I believe that the Prosecutor failed to ask you something along the lines
9 of the rules that we apply. He failed to ask you whether that statement
10 reflects the truth and what you said, and you just -- or I asked you
11 that, and you just told me that that statement does not reflect what you
13 A. I did not understand your question at all.
14 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, if I may, I did ask him yesterday if
15 the statement accurately reflects the recollection of the events he
16 describes therein, and he did answer to that question.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We may have omitted that. We
18 reviewed the transcript. Could you please assist us and tell us -- give
19 us the reference of the transcript where we can find that.
20 MR. RINDI: Yes, certainly. This is page 66, line 16, for your
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Today or yesterday?
23 MR. RINDI: That was done yesterday. I was not able yesterday to
24 ask the admission into evidence of the statement because of time
25 constraints, so that's -- you know, that's the first thing I did this
1 morning when I stood up, but I had the occasion to ask to the witness
2 whether or not he stands by his statement.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could you please give me the line
4 in the transcript? We don't seem to be able to find it, unfortunately.
5 The page number and the line number.
6 MR. RINDI: It should be page 66, line 16. It's -- I can read
7 and quote the exact question I formulated yesterday if this assists. It
8 is page 66, line 16.
9 "Q. Mr. Smajilovic, if you're asked questions about the same
10 topics today, would you give the same answers that you gave in your
12 And the answer was, "Yes," save for the corrections that I just
13 made, page 66, line 16 to 18 of page 66 of yesterday's transcript. Thank
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Okay. Well, I intervened because
16 the witness supplemented the statement in the course of today's
17 testimony, and I just wanted to check whether the witness stood by the
18 statement or not.
19 Q. Mr. Smajilovic, you were a member of the SDA in the
20 Zvornik Assembly; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were one of the 43 SDA MPs. The SDS had 36. There were 11
23 Reformists and 11 Communists. Am I right?
24 A. I believe so.
25 Q. Do you know - I suppose you do - all the leaders of the SDA in
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Sir, you also know that the leaders of the SDA in Zvornik were
4 Pasic, Asim Juzbasic, and Hasim Adzic. When I say Pasic, I mean
5 Abdulah Pasic. Am I right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The president of the municipality Abdulah Pasic was the SDA
8 candidate who was later elected as the president of the Crisis Staff of
9 the municipality of Zvornik
10 A. Yes, I do. That's correct.
11 Q. He introduced a curfew in Zvornik, and he also elaborated the
12 plans of blowing up certain facilities. Is that correct?
13 A. I wouldn't know. I'm not aware of that.
14 Q. The president of the municipality was Mr. Juzbasic, also a member
15 of the SDA.
16 A. No. He was not the president of the municipality.
17 Q. Asim Juzbasic.
18 A. He was president of the SDA, of the Party of Democratic Action.
19 He was not the president of the Assembly, of the Municipal Assembly, if
20 that is what you mean. If you mean the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik, if
21 that's what you mean.
22 Q. Thank you for your clarification. I may have been wrong. The
23 chief of the police was Osman Mustapic; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know that he enjoyed the support of the SDS, and he did
1 not enjoy the complete support of the SDA? Do you know that? Are you
2 aware of that fact?
3 A. I believe that that was correct.
4 Q. For example, Juzbasic was for and Abdul Pasic was against.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know that the Patriotic League was established as an armed
7 formation for Zvornik on the -- on the 6th of July, 1991, at Kula Grad?
8 A. I'm not aware of that.
9 Q. Do you know that the Crisis Staff was established at the time you
10 told us that you know that the aforementioned gentleman was the president
11 of the Crisis Staff?
12 A. I don't know what period you're referring to. I don't know when
13 you're talking about somebody being the president of the Crisis Staff. I
14 can't talk about any time-frame.
15 Q. But you will allow for the possibility that it was in mid-July,
16 as I've told you. And I have the exact date, which is 26th July, 1991.
17 A. I'm not sure.
18 Q. Very well. Do you know that Mr. Sakib Halilovic, also known as
19 Kibe, was appointed the commander of the Patriotic League?
20 A. I know that.
21 Q. Then you should also be aware of the fact that every village in
22 the territory of the municipality was issued with a military schedule and
23 the schedule of engagement as well as their respective commanders.
24 A. I don't think that that's indeed correct.
25 Q. So what is correct then?
1 A. If there were organisations, they were self-motivated. People
2 organised themselves on their -- on their own.
3 Q. Okay. You don't have to go on. You've answered my question.
4 Mr. Smajilovic, the president of the local commune, Dzemal Isic,
5 was in charge of scheduling the guard service in your village?
6 A. Yes, that's true, but that was done together -- our neighbours of
7 Serbian ethnicity who were also members of our community.
8 Q. You also heard of Captain Almir who was in charge of Muslim units
9 and fought for three weeks from Kula Grad in April 1993?
10 A. Yes, I heard of him subsequently.
11 Q. Do you know that he arrived in Zvornik already in December 1991
12 and that his task was to establish units?
13 A. I don't know that.
14 Q. Hold on. I've not finished my question. I'm sorry. To arm
15 them, to train them, and to -- to build the so-called fortification
16 facilities. I'm sure you know what that is.
17 A. I did not serve in the JNA. I don't know what fortification
18 facilities are, and I don't know about the rest either.
19 Q. Fortification facilities are trenches and things like that.
20 Okay. Well, do you know anything about plans being drafted in order to
21 blow up the hydro-electrical plant and plans known as "Red mud"?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. But you should certainly be aware of the following that
24 I'm going to ask you because it was a public matter, and that was that
25 members of the Serb ethnicity from Zvornik as of that moment onwards as
1 night fell crossed the river to go to Serbia and spend the night sleeping
2 at their friends' and relatives' houses and they returned in the morning
3 to go to school or to work.
4 A. I'm not aware of that, and it certainly didn't happen in the
5 place where I lived. I don't know what was going on in the town itself.
6 Q. Well, I did not have in mind your own village. I meant the town
7 of Zvornik.
8 A. I wouldn't know.
9 Q. Very well.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm just wondering, Mr. Cvijetic, that all of
11 this seems to be at some distance from the scope of the statement and the
12 evidence provided during examination-in-chief of this witness. So show
13 us the relevance of it.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't know what to do. First of
15 all, I would like to intervene on the record. My question put to the
16 witness has been recorded as being his answer, which is on line 34, 6. I
17 would like this to be corrected first, and then I can move on to respond
18 to your remark.
19 Your Honour, I will very soon come to the witness's statement.
20 This is just by way of introduction. I just wanted to see how much
21 witness -- the witness knows about the general developments and how much
22 he took part in, in all that.
23 May I be allowed to proceed, Your Honour?
24 Q. Do you know that in mid-March 1992 the Serbian municipality of
25 Zvornik was established at Karakaj?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Karakaj was a part of Zvornik, mostly as -- inhabited by Serbs;
3 is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The remainder of Zvornik is predominantly Muslim, isn't it?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Wasn't most of Zvornik populated by mostly Muslims except for
8 Karakaj? Wait until my question is interpreted. Now you can answer.
9 A. This may be a mix-up. The police was the first to go to Karakaj,
10 the first police.
11 Q. That was going to be my next question. Wait a minute. That's
12 when the police in Zvornik split and the Serbian police went to Karakaj;
13 correct? Just say yes or no.
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. Was -- were the weapons also split among them?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. And do you know what I'm about to say, that there were no
18 conflicts in Zvornik during that division of the municipality and the
19 municipal bodies?
20 A. I must clarify a bit.
21 Q. Just say whether what I'm saying is correct, that there were no
22 conflicts when that division was made.
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Do you know that from mid-March to mid-April when the conflict
25 broke out in Zvornik a great number of attacks was carried out against
1 Serb villages around Zvornik?
2 A. I'm not aware of that.
3 Q. Just wait for my question to answer. Where many people were
4 killed and villages were burnt.
5 A. I have no knowledge of that.
6 Q. Okay. But you should know that in the same period holdups
7 were -- were staged and that JNA officers were killed at Sapna.
8 A. I heard of that.
9 Q. Did you hear of the killing of a member of the MUP of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a Serb by ethnicity, at Kalesija?
11 A. I heard that a Muslim was killed at Kalesija, a MUP member.
12 Q. Kalesija is under the control of Muslim forces, isn't it? Just
13 say yes or no.
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. So the attacks against the Serbian villages with
16 killings and burning continued throughout April while there was still
17 fighting around Zvornik, Kula Grad, and even in May 1992; correct?
18 A. I am not aware of that.
19 Q. All right. Let me go on with your statement. You were arrested
20 on the 15th of May, 1992
21 that correct?
22 A. I said as much, but there was -- there were police, too, and that
23 man Crni wore a uniform of a blueish colour. It wasn't a regular
24 military uniform.
25 Q. Did you fight and offer resistance?
1 A. No.
2 Q. All right. You say in your statement that they came and arrested
3 people, but in your interview you say that you fought off the attack
4 several times, but then: "The unit broke through our defence lines, and
5 we had to surrender." Is that correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So what I read -- the part that I read from your interview is not
9 A. No.
10 Q. All right. You were exchanged on the 9th of September, 1992, and
11 you were taken to the exchange by the military police again; right?
12 A. In -- talking about my case, about me, I was handcuffed by the
13 civilian police, and they took me away to the camp, and the civilian
14 police took me for the exchange. And if I may continue. Once more I was
15 taken to Pale by the military police to be exchanged, and then it didn't
16 work out, and then two, three, or four days later an active police
17 officer and a reserve police officer and two more persons, a driver among
18 them, took me to Lukavica, to Sarajevo
19 JUDGE HALL: Was there an objection?
20 MR. RINDI: No, Your Honours. I wanted to ask my learned
21 colleague if he can provide us with a reference to the part of the
22 interview where the witness will have mentioned that he fought off the
23 attack several times. An exact reference, please.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I accepted the witness's
25 correction, that I may have misinterpreted what he said in the interview,
1 and I took that as -- accepted that as a clarification. I don't take
2 that to be in dispute any longer.
3 MR. RINDI: But we would need a page reference to follow along,
4 if possible. Thank you.
5 JUDGE HALL: Could we move on, please.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Let me just see.
7 Q. That man Crni took you to Zvornik and surrendered you to a Serb
8 police officer Maric. That's part your statement; is that correct?
9 A. He only supervised it, but I was driven by Nenad Vidovic, a
10 police officer who even today works at Zvornik.
11 Q. All right. And he took you to the detention that you mentioned
12 at the Municipal Court?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you spent a month and a half there roughly; right?
15 A. Yes, thereabouts.
16 Q. All right. In your so-called camp file, on page 5 did you say
17 that you were taken directly to the administration building of
19 mentioned a month and a half.
20 A. No.
21 Q. But you remembered that camp file of yours.
22 A. I don't.
23 Q. You don't remember the camp file at all?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you do not remember that you gave a statement to the
1 Association of Camp Inmates
2 of yours constituted a camp file?
3 A. There were several statements. If -- if a file was made, I never
4 saw it. It may be a mistake, because at the time when I came to
5 Novi Izvor, the administration building, there was no camp in existence.
6 It was established for us. I think I mentioned as much.
7 Q. Okay. I have this camp file of yours. Association of Camp
8 Inmates of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Witnesses of your arrest are mentioned.
9 Your name and surname.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Why don't -- could we please call
11 1D006486 and show it to the witness, please.
12 Q. Can you see it on the screen, the document?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page -- let me
15 check for the exact page. Yes, it is page 5.
16 Q. Can you see up there? It says: "Taken directly to camp
17 administration building, Novi Izvor, Zvornik."
18 A. That was entered by mistake.
19 Q. Did you sign this by any chance?
20 A. I don't know. I probably did, but still, it isn't true. Because
21 at the time when I was taken there, the administration building was not a
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let us now turn to page 6 to check
24 whether it bears the witness's signature. Page 6, please.
25 Q. Take a look at the lower left-hand corner.
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could zoom in.
2 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, I believe it would also be helpful to
3 have the English version of the statement displayed so that the rest of
4 the persons present can understand and read the statement. Thank you.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that knowledge of the
6 English language isn't necessary to recognise the signature.
7 Q. Is that your signature, Mr. Smajilovic?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I must find the relevant paragraph
10 on page 5 for the interpreters to be able to interpret it. Could we turn
11 back to page 5, please.
12 Q. Right. I'll read it out and so the interpreters can interpret.
13 This is a form. It reads:
14 "Taken directly to camp, administration building, Novi Izvor,
16 And there's a translation too. I believe that we have the
17 translation now also.
18 Can you see, Mr. Smajilovic? Take a look at the bottom. It says
19 that Sergeant Mrki took you there.
20 A. I said so and explained that he supervised the operation. He
21 supervised that group of people. And how this obvious mistake came
22 about, probably they thought -- they came to that conclusion because I
23 mentioned being taken to the administration building of Novi Izvor. But
24 at the time when I was there, there was no camp. There are witness who
25 can confirm that.
1 Q. All right. All right. Then we can agree that you recognise this
2 document and you know what it's about.
3 A. Yes, I know.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document as
5 a Defence exhibit, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D65, Your Honours.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right. Let us continue, Mr. Smajilovic. I'll go back to
10 your statement about your stay in the court building.
11 You saw Marko Pavlovic all the time, didn't you?
12 A. In the court I saw him once or twice or possibly three times, but
13 in no -- not more than three times in the court building.
14 Q. We're talking about Marko Pavlovic, Major; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He was wearing a camouflage military uniform; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And he was the commander of the defence of the town of Zvornik
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So he was commander of all the forces in Zvornik given his
22 position; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You were beaten up once in his presence if I understood that
1 A. Yes, and in the presence of Sreten Lazarevic, a police officer.
2 Q. Marko Pavlovic organised your exchange and contact with your
3 brother in Sarajevo
4 MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
5 A. I don't know who it was that organised it. I know the place from
6 which I left and where I went, but who organised it --
7 Q. So the details about the exchange and the intervention to your
8 benefit is -- are not familiar to you.
9 A. Only partly.
10 Q. All right. You said the first exchange that was not successful,
11 it was the military police that took you there; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it correct that you were exchanged for a Serb family from
15 A. It wasn't a father-in-law. It was mother-in-law.
16 Q. Yes. Okay. So it was a mother-in-law. Correct?
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 Q. He was the brother of a renowned director from Zvornik who was
19 arrested with his family in Sarajevo
20 know about these details?
21 A. He wasn't arrested. He lived normally in his apartment in
23 Q. All right. In mid-June you were taken to the third floor of the
24 SUP, and you were interrogated by Captain Dragan in the presence of Crni
25 and Marko Pavlovic; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. They were all wearing camouflage military uniforms; right?
3 A. Except for Crni.
4 Q. Were there any SUP inspectors present at your interrogation and
5 did you give a statement?
6 A. Captain Dragan said to me that I should draft a written
7 statement, and I did so on the ground floor of the police station. Some
8 sort of statement.
9 Q. Did you get the impression that Captain Dragan is superior to all
10 the others?
11 A. In that room, yes.
12 Q. And you were beaten by some people who came from the side who had
13 nicknames such as Bokser, Sasa, Zuco, Gogicevci [phoen], although you
14 think that they were controlled by that Marko Pavlovic; right?
15 A. I don't know who controlled them, but I was also beaten by the
17 Q. I'll go back to your camp file for a moment. On page 9. Let us
18 just find it. It says data about the perpetrators of the crime. You
19 entered the "Chetnik armada." Did you mean these persons that you
20 mentioned by name?
21 A. I thought --
22 Q. Did you mean them, or didn't you?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. All right. And it was from there that you were taken to
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In your statement you say that the commander of the camp was
3 Sredoje Vukovic and his deputy, Sreten Lazarevic; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. According to you, Sredoje Vukovic before the war was a
6 professional police officer, and after that allegedly a camp commander.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You also said that his deputy Sreten Lazarevic was a reserve
9 police officer; correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. You also said that a guard by the name of Mile was a waiter that
12 is from Mali Zvornik that is from Serbia
13 citizen of another country.
14 A. No, no. Mile the waiter was from Zvornik, from Srpska Varos.
15 Q. As a matter of fact, you did not see Sredoje Vukovic until the
16 moment you transferred to Novi Izvor; is that correct?
17 A. I didn't see him, but I knew that he was a commander there.
18 Q. And still you saw him only once. Your only meeting had to do
19 with the fact that during the repair of a vehicle you allegedly took a
20 monkey wrench and charged him with that and with -- an attempt to escape.
21 A. I saw him several times, but, yeah, those are the facts, and as I
22 was taken to be exchanged, I also saw him.
23 Q. There was some other Serbs detained there and a Croat.
24 A. There were two Serbs and a Croat.
25 Q. Is it true that you were beaten by some people called Sasa and
1 others who entered the prison during the night, they were drunk, and then
2 they treated you in that state?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Those -- the people who you say were policemen and who were your
5 guards, they didn't beat you, did they?
6 A. There was Slobodan who was a policeman, and there was a Dragan.
7 There were three Dragan's; we distinguished them by nicknames. They were
9 Q. But you said that they were much better, but they take the blame
10 for letting the others in; is that correct?
11 A. Yeah --
12 Q. Is this true?
13 A. Well, nothing could happen unbeknownst to them.
14 Q. Yes, that's what you said. You were present at least on one
15 occasion when Sreten was informed that they had entered, that he then
16 dispersed them immediately, and that he threatened Dragan for having let
17 them in to beat you; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He even engaged some locksmiths to install bars and metal doors
20 in order to prevent the entry of those individuals after which the
21 security situation in Novi Izvor was improved.
22 A. Yes. However, even after such security measures were put in
23 place, they still came in to beat us.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Smajilovic.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for
1 the witness, Your Honours.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, the Bench is of the opinion that
4 when you stated, allegedly, the interview of the witness and couldn't
5 give the reference of -- of it, that this kind of conduct of counsel is,
6 in our view, unacceptable and will not be accepted in the future.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me respond. I
9 have found the reference in the gentleman's interview, in the papers. I
10 don't want you to think that I've made things up, but it took time. This
11 is an interview entitled "Ramis's 118 Days of Hell," and this is a
12 document that has been admitted into evidence, and you will be able to
13 find the reference on the first page -- or, rather, the last page of the
14 document. However, the interview that he gave saying they stormed the
15 village, they broke our defence, and we had to surrender. This is what I
16 quoted, you will recall, I'm sure. And now this has been admitted as
17 part of the document, and you will be able to check the quote. At the
18 moment when I was referring to that document I could not quote the
19 reference number. It took me some time to find it, but now I would like
20 to inform you that I'm happy that I've found it.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do we have the reference number --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry. Sorry. Do we have the reference number
24 now in the transcript, or shall you give it to us?
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The exhibit number is
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: 1D006486. That's it? Thank you.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. And can we please
4 check whether it is part of the document? It should be. I can show you
5 the way the interview looks. I believe that it has been admitted on the
6 last page of the document. Can you find it? Have you found it? And I
7 quoted from that interview, from that article, but I wasn't able to -- to
8 provide you with the reference at that moment. I apologise for not
9 having been able to provide you with a timely reference. I'll try to
10 avoid that in the future, and I apologise.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, if I'm not mistaken, the reference
12 that you have just given to the document is the camp file. 1D006486,
13 that has been admitted into evidence as 1D65. That's the camp file. We
14 have it on the screen right now, so please show to us the part.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The last page. It's page 15 in
16 the English version.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can we see it?
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There, paragraph starts with the
19 following words:
20 "With the few weapons we had we organised the defence. We beat
21 them back several times." These are the words that I underlined. "And
22 then they surrounded us." Further on it says that the defence lines were
23 broken up. And my previous question was: "Well, did you put up
24 resistance?" The witness said they didn't. And then I referred to this
25 part of the interview.
1 Your Honours, I believe that everything is very clear now.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Thanks.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm not going to ask you to
4 withdraw your admonition, Your Honour. I'm accepting it, and I will try
5 and abide by your words in the future.
6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic?
7 MR. PANTELIC: No question for this witness, Your Honour. Thank
9 JUDGE HALL: Re-examination?
10 MR. RINDI: I have no further questions for this witness,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir -- you -- for coming to testify.
13 You're -- you're now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe
14 journey back to your home. Thank you, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you as well.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 MR. HANNIS: I'm not sure if Your Honours were discussing
19 protective measures and whether we needed to take a break. The
20 protective measures do include voice and image distortion, as well as
21 partial private session to the extent it's necessary to protect his
22 identification. The questions I anticipate to ask him will all relate, I
23 think, to his identification, because it's specifically focused on his
24 municipality and the formation he was associated with. So I think during
25 my direct, I would intend to be in private session the whole time, in
1 which case we wouldn't need voice distortion, I think. So I don't know
2 if that has a bearing on whether we take a break now or not.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: The Defence during its cross-examination might
4 not wish to stay in private session, so we might as well get -- you know.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] So we return in a half
8 --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Just one -- one short submission.
12 JUDGE HALL: Could you wait until the noise of the ...
13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Very -- very short
16 submission. I was informed yesterday evening, and it was -- confirmation
17 came this morning, that Serbian Bar Association is going to general
18 strike starting Monday, 9th of -- 9th of November until Wednesday, 11th
19 of November, due to some problems with the government, you know, and I
20 don't know, basis, reasons for all this stuff. So all law offices in
22 order of the Presidency of Serbian Bar Association that members of
23 Serbian bar could not act in any way in -- during these couple of days.
24 So I -- I was -- I contacted our president of Serbian Bar and instructed
25 him to contact OLAD and the Registry here to see how we could resolve
1 this matter, because I'm speaking specifically for Zupljanin Defence,
2 apparently that practically we will be the only members acting next week
3 here within the Tribunal, because there are no other cases, and Stanisic
4 Defence is consisted of colleague from Republika Srpska, Bosnia
6 breach of professional conduct in accordance with our rule -- rules in
8 implications to the list 45 within the ADC association here. So it's --
9 I just want to bring to the attention of the Trial Chamber this fact, and
10 of course on a proper way particular official -- officials will inform
11 Trial Chamber of the development.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pantelic, can I just ask you if your bar
13 association holds extraterritorial jurisdiction over its members in the
14 sense that it can order its members not to act in any judicial activity
15 outside the courts of Serbia
16 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct. And especially because we are
17 bound for the issue of good standing. We cannot be on the 45 list here
18 if we don't have certification of good standing of our domestic bar. So,
19 I mean, it might be a vicious circle. If I -- hypothetically they will
20 start proceedings for disbarring or, I don't know kind of sanctions they
21 may impose. Then automatically I will not be in good standing for -- me
22 and my colleague Krgovic of the good standing for the association of the
23 Defence counsel in The Hague
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Have you tried to seek an exception from your bar
25 association in relations to your services for -- in the international
2 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, I will -- I will -- or I already did
3 that, so I'm waiting for certain position of our bar association, and I
4 instruct them to be -- to be in direct contact with the Registry and OLAD
5 department which taking care about the position of -- Your Honour, it's
6 just information for the Chamber and I hope that on Monday we could be in
7 a better situation. I mean, luckily we are not sitting on Monday, so
8 this communications and correspondence might occur.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Obviously, Mr. Pantelic, it would be awkward if
10 the Serbian Bar Association, which by its nature is a private
11 organisation, would have the power to halt the proceedings of an
12 international court. That's the -- what the problem basically boils down
13 to, and --
14 MR. PANTELIC: Well, I would --
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: We would expect the bar association to respect
16 the independence of this court and the jurisdiction of this court, but
17 we'll have to see.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I appreciate your position, and
19 I think that we have to see what would be the outcome of communications
20 between our representative of our bar association and the relevant
21 authorities of the ICTY on that regard. It's just for the notification,
22 nothing more.
23 Thank you so much for your attention, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. Our next witness is
1 ST-144. This was a witness who was granted protective measures, and he
2 has the protective measures of voice and image distortion and partial
3 private session.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 MR. HANNIS: And I have a pseudonym sheet for the witness,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HALL: Does your name appear on that document that has just
8 been presented to you by the usher?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE HALL: Well, for reasons that will be explained to you
11 shortly, among the protective measures which have been afforded you in
12 this case is a pseudonym, and you will see that the -- you will
13 henceforth be referred to as Witness number 144.
14 Could you sign that pseudonym sheet, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 MR. HANNIS: Could we ask him to confirm that his birth date is
18 correct on that sheet as well. Just to make sure I didn't make an error.
19 JUDGE HALL: Does that sheet accurately reflect your date of
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis, before the break you indicated --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
1 JUDGE HALL: -- in private session. That is not -- we wouldn't
2 be in closed session, I take it.
3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have to confess in spite of being
4 here for years, I still have difficulty with the distinction between
5 private and closed session.
6 JUDGE HALL: So I shouldn't feel too confused.
7 MR. HANNIS: No, you shouldn't.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE HALL: We're opening the shutters, because it's private
10 session, which I believe that you would be seeking to move to.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 2787-2808 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 MR. HANNIS:
16 Q. Witness, I want to show you a newspaper article, and this is
17 65 ter number 01292.
18 MR. HANNIS: If we could have the first page. Go back one page.
19 Q. Witness, do you recognise anybody in that photograph? If so,
21 A. Dusko Vuckovic also known as Repic.
22 MR. HANNIS: And the second page, please.
23 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that photograph?
24 A. Vojin Vuckovic, also known as Zuco.
25 Q. Thank you. And for the last document I want to show you --
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if we could go back into private
3 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
4 MR. HANNIS: I have no more questions concerning that document,
5 Your Honour. It's a newspaper article in English. He hasn't read it. I
6 just was asking for identification of the individuals pictured. I may
7 seek to admit it later on through another witness.
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, back in private session.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And now back in private session I'd like
10 to show you a 65 ter number 2739.
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 2811-2813 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not speaking on
8 behalf of my Belgrade
9 Krgovic, and Zecevic. They've already given their viewpoints. I'm
10 interested in the viewpoints of the Trial Chamber, because this will
11 largely influence the work of the Defence teams, especially the Stanisic
13 Mr. Stanisic's team is what you see. There is nobody in reserve.
14 Mr. Zecevic is currently in Belgrade
15 with regard to the issue that was raised by Mr. Pantelic, because if
16 their demand stands, then I would have to introduce some extraordinary
17 measures in the preparation of my defence, especially when it comes to
18 preparing the witnesses. All I would like to hear from you is your
19 position with regard to the issue that was raised earlier today by my
20 learned friend.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: As we indicated earlier this afternoon, we would
22 expect to hear from the members of the Serbian bar association about the
23 views of the Serbian bar association in respect of whether this
24 organisation can, as a nongovernmental, private organisation, extend
25 personal jurisdiction extraterritorially so as to bind the conduct of its
1 members outside the territory of Serbia
2 of its members before foreign courts, and in this case before an
3 international court. To recognise such an authority would be surprising
4 to the Chamber, but in order to be able to render our decision, we would
5 prefer to hear the views of the Serbian Bar Association on this point
6 before we make any further plans.
7 As I said, I would find it quite surprising if a bar association
8 were able to control the activities of its members outside the territory
9 of Serbia
10 this case in international courts, are halted. That would be highly
11 unusual, and I hope the situation will not arise. But we expect to hear
12 from the present members of the Serbian Bar Association as soon as we
13 possibly can. And if indeed the Serbian Bar Association does claim that
14 its members cannot perform any judicial activity even when they are
15 acting outside of the Serbian courts, and if the position of the bar
16 association is that any Serbian member of the Serbian Bar Association
17 does undertake such judicial activities before foreign courts are going
18 to be stripped of their membership of the bar association because they
19 have acted in a foreign court, then of course we realise that you would
20 have lost your standing in these proceedings, and we would certainly not
21 wish that to happen. So if that turns out to be the position of the
22 Serbian Bar Association, then I suppose it's going to be a matter for the
23 Registry to handle. But let's just see how bad it gets and hope that the
24 problem can be resolved in a sensible manner.
25 JUDGE HALL: So we resume at -- we resume in this courtroom at
1 9.00 on Tuesday morning. I trust everyone has a safe weekend.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day
4 of November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.