1 Tuesday, 17 November 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 [French on English channel]
9 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to all. May I start by calling for the
10 appearances, please.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Di Fazio. I appear for
12 the Prosecution together with our -- Yes. Yes, I must say, if Your
13 Honours, please, just before I do the announcements, I'm getting French
14 on number 4. Well, it may improve my French, but I can't have that today.
15 Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Di Fazio. I appear
16 for the Prosecution together with our case manager, Mr. Smith.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
18 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence
19 this morning. Thank you.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Just to brush up my learned friend's French
21 [Interpretation] Good morning, good morning, Judges. Today appearing for
22 Mr. Zupljanin, for the Defence of Mr. Zupljanin, counsel Igor Pantelic;
23 counsel Dragan Krgovic; and our associate Mr. Eric Tully; and a charming
24 young lady as our case manager, mademoiselle Katarina Danicic. Thank
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
2 May we have the witness returned to the stand, please.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, we have some preliminaries. Can we go
4 to the private session?
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
6 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Majkic, good morning to you. I would remind you
14 that you are still on your oath.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you too.
16 WITNESS: DRAGAN MAJKIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Majkic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the role and the
22 relationship of the police with the public prosecutor's office and the
23 justice system, that is, the regular judge in those procedures that were
24 in place. Would you agree with me if I say that the police in fact was a
25 technical service of the public prosecutor's office in the so-called
1 pre-indictment proceedings and that it acted on the instructions of the
2 public prosecutor's office in keeping with the Law on Criminal Procedure
3 as to what pre-indictment actions to take?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And certainly, in certain stages the police also acted on the
6 instructions of the investigative judge who led this investigation
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you would agree that for all practical purposes the public
10 prosecutor's office was the body which led pre-indictment proceedings,
11 made motions and requests for the implementation of investigative
12 procedures, et cetera?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the police was practically duty-bound to act on the
15 instructions of the public prosecutor and the investigative judge?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At any rate, the job of the police was to work to try to detect
18 perpetrators of crimes using its own methods, using informers, collecting
19 information, et cetera?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could we now go through a part of your statement, the one that
22 you gave to the Prosecution in 2001 and 2008. I have a copy for you in
23 Serbian language to facilitate communication.
24 MR. PANTELIC: This is -- [Interpretation] The B/C/S version is
25 65 ter 9003, and may I ask the usher to kindly put it before the witness.
1 Q. While we are waiting, Mr. Majkic, would you agree with me that
2 practically the powers of police officers are based on the Law on
3 Criminal -- Law on Internal Affairs, not on orders from above; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Very well. Now we have both versions. Look at paragraph 19,
6 please. In English it's page 4 and in B/C/S it's page 6, paragraph 19.
7 So in this statement you mention that in 1941 around 5.000 Serbs
8 had been killed in Sanski Most. Would you explain to us very briefly,
9 because this is not the subject of these proceedings, what is this all
10 about? Why did you mention this historical detail or just explain
11 briefly what happened in 1941.
12 A. It happened some time in the month of July. The servants of the
13 Ustashas and the Ustasha units in Sanski Most were rounding up people
14 from 14 to 70 years of age from all the villages where Serbs lived and
15 brought them into depots and warehouses in town and locked them up. From
16 the 1st until the 3rd of August, around 5.000 of them were killed at a
17 cemetery now called Susnjar, where today there is a monument to the
18 victims of Ustasha terror.
19 Q. Those were in fact the forces of the Muslim Handzar division
20 cooperating with the forces of the Ustasha regime. They committed these
21 crimes in your area; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In 1992, although this was not directly referred to, there must
24 have been great concern and anxiety among the Serbs about what was going
25 to follow, especially knowing that there were already Serbian casualties
1 and victims in the neighbouring territory of Croatia
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you now turn to page -- to the page of your statement where
4 paragraph 34 begins. In English it's 7, in B/C/S it's 10.
5 We discussed the subject of this paragraph yesterday, but I would
6 like you to give me a summarised version and conclusion. Here you say
7 that the chief of a police station is the one who coordinates the work of
8 all these sectors and that at that time, when you took over as chief of
9 police station, there were around 100 people working in the Sanski Most
10 police station.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, out of those 100, if I remember well from looking at that
13 list, I believe that at least 30 were clerks, typists, administrative
14 workers, couriers, the cleaning personnel; in other words, not
15 active-duty policemen?
16 A. Yes, we employed 25 to 30 per cent of such personnel.
17 Q. Now, regarding this fact, we know from various testimonies and
18 from the fact of this case that this group, SOS, led by a certain Njunja
19 had very serious weaponry. They even had some sort of three-barrelled
20 gun. They were seasoned fighters. Tell me, if you were to compare the
21 strength of the uniformed police in Sanski Most with that SOS group, if
22 an armed conflict occurred between them, what would be the outcome?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there's an assumption in
24 there that the witness hasn't testified about. Yesterday his evidence
25 was he thought they were local lads - Friday and yesterday - local lads,
1 seven to eight
2 clarified this - he found out there were more. Now, the assumption in
3 the question is that there are more and that they're well armed. So the
4 reality of what -- the reality of the strength and numbers of the SOS
5 hasn't yet been made clear, but the assumption is that -- in the question
6 is that the police couldn't cope with it, whatever that might have been,
7 and we don't know. The only definite thing we have so far is seven to
8 eight local lads, and later he found out there were more. That's my
9 recollection of the evidence.
10 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe my learned friend --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: So that should be -- that should be clear.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe my learned friend was away from the office
13 when we discussed these matters. Maybe he's not so familiar with his own
14 case and the evidence, but we know, Your Honours, what was the numbers of
16 JUDGE HALL: If I may have a moment, Mr. Pantelic.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE HALL: I might -- Mr. Di Fazio, I was about to say that the
19 thrust of your objection is that it -- I think the expression goes
20 assumes facts not in evidence.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
22 JUDGE HALL: And that is not -- and that's the intervention
23 Mr. Pantelic is now making. That's not entirely correct, it may not be
24 in evidence out of the mouth of this witness, but in terms of the body of
25 the evidence, I don't know that it is an objection which the way you have
1 phrased it stands. Perhaps the concern could be addressed by
2 Mr. Pantelic, refining the question to bring it home to this witness.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. All right. Well -- very well, Your Honours.
4 But if that is the case, then you, as you listen to this evidence, should
5 know exactly what the comparison is -- what -- the comparison that's
6 being made. Mr. Pantelic -- the thrust of Mr. Pantelic's question is
7 that the numbers of police in Sanski Most with their weaponry were in no
8 position to deal with the SOS. But we still don't know what this
9 witness's position on the strength of the SOS was at different times. So
10 if he says "yes" or answers "yes," what do you know, what meaning does
11 his evidence carry.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I don't have a problem with this. I
13 will ask witness of his personal knowledge of that issue.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Majkic, why don't you describe now to the
15 Trial Chamber what you knew about the strength of that armed group, the
16 SOS in Sanski Most in 1992. Briefly explain how many of them there were,
17 what kind of weapons they had, all you know.
18 A. As I have been saying in my evidence the past few days --
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues]... what this
20 witness knew at the moment he was chief of police or at any moment?
21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Majkic, we know from your evidence that you
23 had certain knowledge in end 1991, in the beginning of 1992 about this
24 armed formation. But since you were in Sanski Most throughout 1992,
25 which covers the period of this indictment, tell the Trial Chamber from
1 the moment you found out about that SOS group until the end of 1992 what
2 was your personal knowledge about the strength of that unit we are
3 talking about?
4 A. As I have been saying in my evidence the past few days, we in the
5 police practically knew next to nothing about them. We got this
6 information from the citizenry, from the people. The people started
7 talking about the SOS and who might be in it. We in the police would see
8 them in groups of seven to eight. We had an idea who the leaders were of
9 this paramilitary unit, but they were in this group of seven or eight
10 when they were home. When they would go out to war, we didn't see them
11 anymore. We had no idea of their organisation. Even worse, we didn't
12 know anything about them. If we had known that there were seven or
13 eight, we would have dealt with them easily; but what if there were more
14 than seven or eight, what then? That's one. And second, these were
15 soldiers that had been in the battle-field for ten months, ever since
16 1991 in the summer. We would see them only when they would come on leave
17 to Sanski Most. There was also military police in Prijedor and it also
18 toured and inspected Sanski Most. They kept them under surveillance and
19 monitoring. So I had no reason to go and interview them, for instance,
20 about these bombings and explosives that had been set in various
21 incidents because we never succeeded in establishing that it was them,
22 and their behaviour in everyday life did not give us any cause to some of
24 Q. Let me ask you something. When you ceased being chief of police,
25 did you know -- did you learn at that point that within their unit they
1 had a sort of a three-barrelled gun?
2 A. Yes, I saw it on a number of occasions when they transported it.
3 Q. Did you know that some threats were made to some judicial
4 officers for putting Serbs on trial, were there any protests made by SOS
5 members? Did you hear of any such incidents?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. Did you know that they acted within the 6th Krajina
8 Brigade and that they were under the command of Colonel Basara at the
10 A. Yes, we knew that they were soldiers of the 6th Krajina at the
11 time, and we knew when they were out on the front; when they were not at
12 the front, we would see them in Sanski Most on a daily basis.
13 Q. Now please turn to paragraph 63 of your statement. That's page
14 11 in English and in your version it's page 17. Here you speak of Basara
15 and the 6th Brigade. There are various assessments, but let's say that
16 there were about 3.000 members of that 6th Brigade. That number used to
17 vary but it went from 3- to 5.000; right?
18 A. Yes, approximately.
19 Q. And then in paragraph 63 when you met with Basara I see that this
20 brigade was deployed - and this is something you spoke of
21 yesterday - that they had their positions. And when you visited him you
22 said that that brigade was quartered on a large piece of land. Was it in
23 Lusci Palanka, were they there?
24 A. Well, they were from Palanka over across Dabar in an area
25 stretching over 30 kilometres. This is where they were positioned, and
1 one couldn't see them from the road, either from the regional road or the
2 local road. One couldn't see them because they were out in the hills
3 where they had their camp.
4 Q. And then in paragraph 65 of your statement, when speaking of the
5 numbers of the SOS, you say that in your estimate there were between 38
6 and 40 persons there. Can you confirm that now?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And you say that Dusko Saovic, nicknamed Njunja, was the
9 commander of that group. Tell me, please, this Njunja person, did he
10 come to the meetings of the Crisis Staff? Did he take part in political
12 A. No, neither he nor -- it's just that when the Crisis Staff was
13 established, Vinko Nikolic from the SOS was their representative at the
14 Crisis Staff. And up until that time they never appeared in such
15 meetings, and none of them were members of the Executive Board of the SDS
16 even though some of them were most likely members of the SDS.
17 Q. All right. And then in paragraph 66 you speak of how from the
18 fall of 1991 until spring of 1992 there were about 13 instances of
19 grenades being thrown on certain premises, most likely owned by Muslims
20 and Croats. And then you say that there were probably some damage
21 inflicted on premises owned by Serbs as well. And you testified of that
23 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 2D02-0441,
25 Q. This is the document that we looked at the other day, Mr. Majkic.
1 Unfortunately, I don't have it in our language, but I will read out to
2 you several excerpts to remind you of what it was about.
3 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE HALL: Before you leave this statement that you have been
6 cross-examining the witness on, I understand this is not yet exhibited.
7 Do you wish to have it exhibited?
8 MR. PANTELIC: Actually, Your Honour, I have a couple more issues
9 to cover regarding this statement, and then --
10 JUDGE HALL: So you're coming back to it?
11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I am coming back, but in fact it's not my
12 intention -- I just want to point -- to make several points with that
14 I just want to know what's going on with this particular document
15 that I mentioned.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the number.
17 MR. PANTELIC: It's 2D02-0441.
18 MR. TULLY: If I may, Your Honours, the number is 2D02-0440.
19 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] So this document will be shown on the screen,
21 the translation, but let me tell you what it is about. This is a daily
22 report on the visit of the Red Cross delegation from Sarajevo on the 24th
23 of February, 1992, and their representatives talked to Nedeljko Rasula
24 from SDS, to Mirzet Karabeg, president of the Executive Board, member of
25 the SDA; they talked to Ivica Pranic, the HDZ representative, which is
1 the Croatian political party; and Majkic Dragan. You see the names here
2 in English. Do you remember even though it was 17 years ago. Do you
3 remember that meeting with the representatives of the Red Cross in
4 February of 1992?
5 A. Yes, I know that there was the meeting, but I can't remember the
6 details now.
7 Q. Naturally. I didn't insist on them, but this is the document.
8 It is self-explanatory, and we will go over it. So briefly in this
9 document they describe the situation in the municipality. They say that
10 there are about 2.000 refugees. I suppose that these refugees are Serbs
11 who had come from Croatia
12 A. In February, yes.
13 Q. Then they go on to say that there are about 5.000 unemployed
14 persons in -- briefly, the economic situation was difficult. You had to
15 take care of the refugees, deal with the unemployment, and so on?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pantelic.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Exactly. I just wondered whose report is it.
3 It's a report made by the ICRC, is that it?
4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
6 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Now, Mr. Majkic, they say here in the fourth paragraph from the
8 bottom that from November 1991 there had been about 20 explosions in
9 cafes, bars, and cars, and they say that they were not focused
10 exclusively on one ethnicity but on all three of them. Would you agree
11 with this conclusion of the Red Cross delegation?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Now, could we turn to the second
14 page of this report.
15 Q. In the last paragraph it says that the team received a
16 confirmation from all three political leaders in Sanski Most, that all
17 three ethnic groups were armed, and that nobody felt threatened on
18 account of that. As I see it, they simply took it as a given fact. This
19 was the period of time just before the outbreak of the war and this is
20 what these people from the Red Cross stated; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if there is no objection from my
23 friends from Prosecution, we could mark it for identification pending
24 translation if it's possible.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection, if Your Honours please.
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so marked.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D19, marked for identification, Your
4 MR. PANTELIC: Or, Your Honours, sorry, if we don't need
5 translation, if this is original document, we could have it marked as an
6 exhibit. I don't know what's the practice.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection, if Your Honours please.
8 JUDGE HALL: So it's admitted and marked as an exhibit, and I
9 assume that the procedure would be followed to have it translated into
10 the language that the accused understands in due course.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Now let us turn to paragraph 111. That's page 18 in the English
15 version and page 28 in the Serbian. You say there that since you were
16 replaced or following your replacement - and this is what you said to the
17 OTP as well - that you knew that people were brought in, their statements
18 taken, and so on, in certain places. And then in paragraph 111 you say
19 that one could see that there were people in prison there and that
20 everybody knew that and that it was even broadcast on the radio. So if
21 you knew that and if this was a relatively well-known fact, does it mean
22 that the public prosecutor in Sanski Most had to know of this too?
23 A. In this particular case, this did not refer to the people who
24 were arrested and brought to the hall. This referred to the people who
25 lived in that neighbourhood called Mahala. After the 27th, when the
1 military operation in Mahala was carried out, on the following day they
2 all came out of that neighbourhood and spread, dispersed throughout the
3 city. And then several days later when somebody issued a decision, they
4 went through Mahala, the entire town going door to door looking for
5 people from Mahala. And having found those from Mahala, they took them
6 to the sports hall where they were kept for several days, and then via
7 Bosanska Krupa they were transported in the direction of Cazin. This
8 here refers to that particular group.
9 Q. I understood this to mean that the position of the public
10 prosecutor in Sanski Most was such that he had information on certain
11 aspects that could be prosecuted -- that people could be prosecuted for?
12 A. Yes, naturally.
13 Q. Now, let us discuss -- let us turn to the document that you
14 discussed yesterday which is the purported diary. This is a contentious
15 issue still, the diary of Rasula, which is P60.13.
16 All right. Very well.
17 [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please. Microphone for
20 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, my microphone was off.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Now let us turn to page where we see the entry
22 for the 2nd of November, or rather, we go to the 2nd of November page of
23 the diary where the meeting held on the 20th of April is recorded. So we
24 should see the 2nd of November. Right now we see the 22nd of October
25 which is no good for us. We need to move forward. I can assist you.
1 This is page with the ERN number 0037-9441, so 20 some numbers further
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I might have missed it. Do we have the English
4 corresponding page?
5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the page. The English
6 version ... in the English version we need to find the 18th of April,
7 1992, and the 20th of April, 1992. While our colleagues from the
8 Registry are looking for it -- could we now scroll down in the English
9 version so we can see the entire text -- or rather, can we see the top of
10 the page, the 18th of April. All right.
11 Q. This is the meeting held on the 20th of April, 1992, where
12 General Talic, Colonel Basara, Major Zeljaja were present, as well as
13 representatives of the SDS, SDA, and HDZ, also attending were Mirzet,
14 Redzo, Sabic, Ante, and Vlado. This is for the record. General Talic
15 was actually commander of the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Colonel Basara was the commander of the 6th Brigade in Sanski
19 A. Yes, 6th Krajina Brigade.
20 Q. Yes. As far as I know, Major Zelja ja was a commander of some
21 military brigade in the region of Prijedor?
22 A. Yes, there were two brigades in Prijedor. One was motorised and
23 I don't know what the other one was, and he was a commander of one of
25 Q. And what I know is that Major Zeljaja was at the same level as
1 Colonel Basara. He was in charge of all military forces in the area of
2 Prijedor, just like Basara was in Sanski Most; right?
3 A. I don't know whether he had a brigade under his command or a
4 battalion. It's possible that he had a brigade under his command, in
5 which case he held the same position in Prijedor as did Basara in Sanski
7 Q. And there were representatives of all political parties there.
8 Now tell me, Mirzet, is that Mirzet Karabeg?
9 A. Yes, president of the municipal Executive Board.
10 Q. And who was Redzo?
11 A. Redzo Kurbegovic was either president of the SDA at the time. He
12 may have been president of the SDA at the time; if not exactly president,
13 then one of the top leaders.
14 Q. What about Sabic?
15 A. Well, Suad Sabic was a lawyer before the war and he was
16 vice-president of the SDA in Sanski Most.
17 Q. Who is Ante?
18 A. Ante was president of the HDZ in Sanski Most. I can't remember
19 his last name just now.
20 Q. And Vlado, was that Vlado Vrkes from the SDS?
21 A. Yes, Vlado Vrkes.
22 Q. On that day, military leaders, together with political leaders,
23 agreed on and analysed the situation?
24 A. Yes, but I didn't know about this meeting at all at the time. I
25 only learned of it many years later.
1 Q. Yes, I accept that. Now, see here on this page it says Redzo and
2 then the text that is attributed to him. And Redzo is reading some
3 political party communique. I assume it was a joint one from all
4 political parties on how to reach some peaceful resolution?
5 A. I can't remember. I didn't know of this meeting, but reading
6 this text one could come to that conclusion, yes.
7 Q. And we have a sentence here. Redzo gives a consent for this
8 division -- these divisions to be made in the municipality, which means
9 that there was some political agreement on carrying out divisions based
10 on ethnic background?
11 A. Well, yes, if this was on the 20th this could be the continuation
12 of the negotiations held on the 15th and the 16th. I don't know what
13 else it could be.
14 Q. And then Redzo speaks of some agreement on five items. He
15 doesn't agree with the time schedule for moving out, but he advocates the
16 position that the facility needs to be handed over peacefully. I guess
17 he speaks of the facility that belonged to the police; right?
18 A. I don't know. I really couldn't comment on it.
19 Q. All right. Let us now move to the following page, which is the
20 3rd of November, so the same meeting. It is carried over onto the next
21 page, and see here what Ante says. He was the representative of the
22 Croatian political party. Ante says that he doesn't accept the opinion
23 of the headquarters of the HDZ, so he's opposed to it. And then Ante
24 says that the Croat population - and then he speaks of the relations
25 between these two peoples and how they have no power in the municipality.
1 And then Ante approves the idea of Serbian municipality, and is awaiting
2 some response from Sarajevo
3 preserve law and order.
4 Did you know this Ante personally?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. His words here, do they faithfully reflect the position of the
7 HDZ in Sanski Most, if you know?
8 A. I can't [as interpreted] tell you one specific thing about this.
9 At that time at the Assembly, only one vote was missing for the Assembly
10 to adopt the decision to join the Autonomous Region of Krajina. And in
11 talks with the SDS, Ante accepted to give that missing vote. However, at
12 the last moment he changed his mind and didn't vote for it. And as soon
13 as I came back to Sanski Most I met up with this Ante. We sat down and
14 talked about it, and after the war, sometime in 2000, he told me that he
15 had been willing to vote but he changed his mind at the last moment in
16 fear of Tudjman in Zagreb
18 Q. Let's just correct this first sentence. There's a mistake on the
19 record, page 20, line 3. We heard you saying "I can tell you one
20 specific thing about this." Correct?
21 A. Yes, that's what I said.
22 Q. Minor correction. Never mind.
23 So there was a political negotiation in Sanski Most.
24 Representatives of the military were involved as well as higher political
25 leaderships, that is, the headquarters of these political parties, and
1 there was a great drive to resolve the situation in Sanski Most; correct?
2 A. You could infer that from all of this.
3 Q. And you mentioned yesterday that the essence of this division lay
4 both in the structure of the municipality; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in the structure of the municipal police; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it also had to do with the territory of Sanski Most
9 You even said that one part of the town would go to the Serbian people,
10 another part to the Muslim people, a third part to the Croats. Did I
11 understand this well?
12 A. In those talks they divided the entire territory of Sanski Most
13 and marked each section and who's going to control it.
14 Q. Now we are moving to another subject that had been discussed
15 yesterday, namely, according to you, Mr. Zupljanin always tried to be
16 tolerant and professional in seeking solutions so that this
17 transformation of the police and the division of the police would take
18 place in a civilised way. We will now see a video-clip that the
19 Prosecution used in its opening statement. Of course the Prosecution is
20 entitled to certain interpretations, just as the Defence does. And the
21 final decision will be made by the Trial Chamber. So could we now look
22 at this excerpt in which Mr. Zupljanin in an interview speaks of the
23 manner, kind, and structure of the organisation of the Serbian police,
24 and then I will put certain questions to you regarding that.
25 Unfortunately, we have no translation, and I am kindly asking the
1 interpreters now to interpret the interview as best they can. I was told
2 that perhaps this translation would be provided by the translation
3 section, but ...
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 3008.
6 [In English] Can we play this exhibit, please.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "To take off the uniform and be a
9 regular person.
10 "I set this as an objective when I decided with a couple of my
11 colleagues to work intensively on preparations that preceded the war on
12 the one hand aware of the threats to the Serbian populace. It is my
13 great desire to create a police force in the right measure for the -- for
14 the people. Our example we are following are the English bobbies. We
15 believe that they are held in great respect by their own people, that
16 it's an honour for an English citizen when a policeman comes to his
17 house. And above all, this is a well-trained professional, a moral man.
18 When I say 'moral,' it's quite certain that in our previous system morals
19 were eroded greatly. I must say that it is the same with personal
20 ethics. I remember times when I was able to find time to read. I took
21 Aristotle's politics, and I underlined one of his thoughts when he said
22 that the most important task of the state is to preserve morals. I
23 believe our state must do a lot in this respect in the following period.
24 "Speaking of the police, it's quite certain that we must adopt
25 into the police force the most faithful young people with clean hands and
1 clear minds who are not interested only in money, but who are prepared to
2 give their best and even lay down their lives for the welfare of their
4 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Majkic, do you remember, do you agree that in those times
6 when you worked with Mr. Zupljanin he was really trying to achieve a high
7 level of professionalism in the police force in the entire region covered
8 by the CSB Banja Luka in the spirit of his words here?
9 A. I had not seen this clip before, but I am 100 per cent certain
10 from what I know of Mr. Zupljanin that what he said here in this
11 video-clip, that was precisely his idea in the times when I was working
12 with him.
13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions of
14 this witness. Thank you.
15 [In English] Sorry, maybe I can tender it as an exhibit, this
16 video-clip, if there is no objection --
17 JUDGE HALL: Admitted --
18 MR. PANTELIC: -- finally it was part of the opening statement.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection.
20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
21 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Majkic.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D20, Your Honours.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Majkic, good morning.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Majkic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Before I ask you the questions I plan to ask, could we call up on
8 the screen one document that you commented on yesterday, it's been
9 exhibited, P355. As we are waiting, let me tell you that you won't be
10 asked to comment on it again - you did that yesterday - but I need it as
11 a reminder to you for the question that follows.
12 Those are the conclusions of that meeting of 6 April 1992. Just
13 remind yourself of the introductory part that begins with the words:
14 "In accordance with the current political developments in the
15 republic resulting from the problems that had occurred with the future
16 state organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the fundamental principles
17 of which were established by the Sarajevo
18 Brussels recognition," et cetera, et cetera. You remember this?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Read also the following passage, the next passage. It speaks
21 about the establishment of the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian
22 republic. You remember seeing this yesterday?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move to page 2.
25 Excellent. Let's find the English. It begins with:
1 "In this connection" or "on that occasion ..."
2 Q. Read this as well.
3 "On that occasion and in accordance with dispatch of the MUP
4 collegium of the Serbian Republic
5 April, 1992, on the need for internal affairs organs to be
6 transformed ..."
7 Could we just put it the way I said it in the record.
8 "In accordance with the SRBH MUP collegium dispatch" - I wanted
9 this acronym on the record because it had caused some misunderstanding
10 earlier. Have you read it now?
11 "On the transformation of internal affairs organs and their
12 security services that should be carried out in a peaceful manner and
13 without excess situations."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now this acronym, SRBH, I believe my colleague Mr. Pantelic
16 mentioned it yesterday. SRBH as an acronym can be read in our language
17 as Serbian Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 Socialist Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. My colleague Mr. Pantelic said that this was a dispatch of the
21 MUP collegium of the Serbian Republic B&H; however, I'll also remind you
22 and we'll refer to the document, at that time, on the 2nd of April, the
23 MUP of Republika Srpska only has ministers, Minister Jovica [as
24 interpreted] Stanisic. It does not have a collegium. The first time the
25 collegium met was in July in Belgrade
1 Mico Stanisic, not Jovica Stanisic.
2 So reference was made to the dispatch of the MUP collegium of the
3 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the collegium of a joint
4 MUP, do you agree?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Since this document is already in evidence, the only way to check
7 if what I'm saying is correct is to open this dispatch and look at it.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if we
9 should do that before the break. Maybe I'll take some time reading it,
10 but I don't mind continuing if you wish.
11 JUDGE HALL: Well, we have about seven minutes -- [Microphone not
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
14 JUDGE HALL: Let's make as much use of the time as we have. We
15 have about seven minutes.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Can we now open 65 ter 2768. Could we just zoom in a bit. First
18 show the top, please.
19 Q. Mr. Majkic, we have to start from the very beginning. Look, MUP,
20 Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It says dispatch number, official, and the date. And then it
24 lists the addressees; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It's clearly written there. We don't need to read it out, but we
2 see that there are many bodies among the addressees.
3 A. Yes, down to the lowest level.
4 Q. But also the federal secretariat of internal affairs; right?
5 A. Yes, they are at the top.
6 Q. And look, who follows after the federal secretariat, Minister --
7 Ministers of internal affairs --
8 JUDGE HALL: Of course I wouldn't presume to tell you how to
9 conduct your cross-examination, but these prefatory questions, I for one
11 assistance to the witness and the Chamber if you were to hone in on the
12 end of that road down which you're headed. It's a mixed metaphor, but
13 pardon me. You understand what I'm saying.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Q. Mr. Majkic, will you then read the beginning of the first
16 paragraph of the conclusions from this joint collegium.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it similar or identical to what we've just seen in the
19 dispatch from Mr. Zupljanin; you agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You'll agree with me that that paragraph was practically copied
22 and pasted by Mr. Zupljanin or he just gave his own account of it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Look at that same first paragraph, there is this notification of
25 the establishment of the Ministry of the Interior of the republic of the
1 Serbian people Bosnia-Herzegovina; do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that written?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you agree that Mr. Zupljanin copied and pasted this as well
6 into his own dispatch, we've just seen it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now look, it says "page 2" in the middle of the page, so could we
9 just see the lower part. Are we there in the English version? Yeah,
10 there it is. It's difficult to count the lines, but somewhere in the
11 middle the sentence begins:
12 "The professional collegium made an appraisal of the situation
13 realistically and -- having realistically reviewed the prevailing
14 situation and wanting to avoid the conditions possible for further
15 deterioration of an otherwise complex situation with the intention to
16 maintain the control over all elements of law and order, particularly
17 when it comes to personal security of the citizens and their property."
18 A. Where is it?
19 Q. Well, find this sentence that begins with the words "collegium"
20 and read on.
21 JUDGE HALL: When you reach a convenient point we'll take the
22 break, Mr. Cvijetic.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll finish with
25 this document before the break, and after the break we'll discuss an
1 entirely different subject if you agree.
2 Q. Witness, have you found it?
3 A. Yes, I'm reading.
4 Q. Did you find it verbatim as I read it out? I'll remind you --
5 you need look at the document no longer. I'll remind you that
6 Mr. Zupljanin in his dispatch mentions this very same thing, "peacefully
7 and without incident and excesses." You agree that Mr. Zupljanin is
8 referring to this dispatch? He actually gave his own account of it?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have another question on this
11 for the witness, but maybe I should ask it after the break.
12 JUDGE HALL: 20 minutes.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
16 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, while the witness is on his way back
17 to the stand, for management purposes because as you would be aware there
18 are a number of other matters with which we must deal with today,
19 including a witness who is standing by in Belgrade for the videolink.
20 Could you give us an indication as to how much longer you expect you
21 would be with this witness? We recall that when -- that the usual order
22 for cross-examination was reversed because you anticipated at the end of
23 examination-in-chief that the witness's testimony being matters that
24 concern the -- Mr. Zupljanin more so than Mr. Stanisic, that you would,
25 as it was, sweep up after Mr. Pantelic would have done the -- I keep
1 mixing metaphors, but the heavy lifting in terms of the
2 cross-examination. So now that you have had the benefit of
3 Mr. Pantelic's work, could you tell us now where you think you are in
4 terms of time?
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you are quite right.
6 I'm not going to repeat what Mr. Pantelic has already covered, and I will
7 deal only with matters that I believe to be important for the defence of
8 Mr. Stanisic. I told my learned friends from the Prosecution that I will
9 not be as long as until the next break, and as to exactly how long I
10 wouldn't be able to tell you. Perhaps I'll finish in the next half an
11 hour, but we'll see.
12 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
13 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honour. Just for the record
14 I would like to ask just a correction for the exhibit 2D20 -- actually,
15 it is a videotape I was informed during the break of two and a half
16 hours. So just for the record I would need a clip of this whole tape
17 from minute 1 -- hour 1, 57 minute, and 20 seconds up to hour 1, 59
18 minutes, and 35 seconds, just this particular portion. Thank you so
20 JUDGE HALL: Well, the Registry will deal with that in the usual
21 manner. Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please continue.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Majkic, now that we're dealing with this page of this
2 document, would you please look at the text below that where it says:
3 "Also due attention was paid to the financing," and so on. Were
4 you able to find it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We can see that in the English version as well. Have you read
7 the entire paragraph?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you agree with me that the collegium of the joint Ministry
10 of the Interior is here dealing also with the issue of the funding and
11 financing of the Ministry of the Interior, and they accepted as a fact
12 that the Ministry of the Interior does indeed exist. Do you agree with
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that at the end they are mentioning the possibility of
16 maintaining some joint services. Do you see that bit?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We have the acronym EOP here?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I think that EOP stands for electronic data processing and
22 A. Yes, I think so too.
23 Q. So the top echelons of the Ministry of the Interior of the
24 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is here dealing with the
25 transformation and reorganisation of the MUP; am I right, this is what
1 this document is about?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you realise that in this particular instance the reference is
4 made to the reorganisation of the existing structure of the ministry -- I
5 apologise, I'm now being told that you need to wait with your answer to
6 be sure that it was properly recorded.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I will have to repeat the question. I will have to repeat the
10 question. So do you agree that the collegium of the joint Ministry of
11 the Interior here deals with the existence funding of the Ministry of the
12 Interior of the Serbian republic and also speaks how some joint services
13 within the joint MUP should be maintained; am I right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. They are referring to the electronic data processing,
16 communications system, and so on; right? Am I right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now could I ask the Registry to go
19 back to the first page of this document. We need to see the English
20 version as well. All right.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Majkic, as it happens, you were a member both of the
22 joint MUP and a member of the Ministry of the Interior of Republika
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, could you please read paragraph 2 where it says who attended
1 the professional collegium of the joint MUP.
2 A. I've read it.
3 Q. The list is quite lengthy so you needed additional time.
4 A. I know all of these people.
5 Q. Do you? There was something I wanted to ask you. So you know
6 all of these people, the names are familiar?
7 A. Yes, back from the times of the joint MUP where we worked
9 Q. So you can confirm that they actually performed the duties and
10 served in the posts that are mentioned here?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you will agree with me that these were indeed the top
13 officials of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
14 A. Yes, practically all of them except for Alija Delimustafic, whose
15 name for some reason I can't see here.
16 Q. And everybody else is there?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like to
19 tender this document into evidence because it is evident that the
20 contents of this document are incorporated into the contents of the
21 dispatch that we admitted yesterday into evidence as P355, dispatch of
22 Mr. Zupljanin who actually used the conclusions reached at the joint
23 collegium and incorporated them into his dispatch. We believe this
24 document to be very important, this document here, and we believe that
25 this document can be used to explain the one that was admitted yesterday,
1 and that they should be only analysed together in order to explain the
2 procedure for reorganisation of the Ministry of the Interior of the
3 Socialist Republic
4 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection, if Your Honours please.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, please explain to the Chamber the
6 importance of the fact that Mr. Zupljanin copied a part of the joint MUP
7 meeting conclusions into his own dispatch. What are we to make of this?
8 What do you seek to prove by having this established?
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm trying to show
10 how the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina was
11 transformed, along which lines; what hierarchy existed and how it went
12 down; I'm also trying to show the fact that this transformation came
13 about based on the consent of all three sides, representative of all
14 three nations, who were represented among the top officials of MUP. I
15 asked the witness to look at the list of attendees - and I can repeat my
16 question and ask him whether all three nations, Serbs, Croats, and
17 Muslims were represented among the attendees.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's clear that they were.
19 I -- as I said, I knew most of them and I used to meet with almost all of
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. But again, Mr. Cvijetic, what is the
22 importance of the fact in relation to the -- to this trial, what is the
23 importance of the fact that the transformation was done through
24 negotiation between the three parties to the conflict?
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm following the
2 indictment. According to the indictment, MUP or Ministry of the Interior
3 of Republika Srpska was created by force, by taking over power by force,
4 by splitting. However, as we can see based on this document, we can --
5 this came about based on the political agreement, the Lisbon Agreement,
6 Cutileiro Plan, and so on, and that the policemen up until that time
7 simply followed the agreement that was reached at the political level
8 among the representatives of all three nations. So that is the essence
9 of what I'm trying to show.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE HALL: The document is admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D78, Your Honour.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Mr. Majkic, you have heard the reply I gave to the Trial Chamber,
15 so let's deal with that context, please. You were there on the ground,
16 and as you have told us you were there awaiting the results of the
17 political discussions of all three nations in order to see what you,
18 policemen, were to do. Is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's what I said.
20 Q. You will then agree with my conclusion, won't you, that you - the
21 policemen - if I may say so, were waiting to see what fate will be cut
22 out for you by the politicians and that the politics came above
23 everything else; right?
24 A. Completely right.
25 Q. Mr. Majkic, I will now go to the very beginning when you were
1 appointed chief in Sanski Most. You said something and I have it in your
2 statement used by Mr. Pantelic, that you were nominated for that post by
3 the Serbian Democratic Party, but that your nomination was approved by
4 other ethnic political -- by political parties of other ethnicities; and
5 that it was only after the consent was given by them that you were
6 officially appointed to that post. Right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D00-7018.
9 We are waiting for the translation of this document into English.
10 It should be ready tomorrow. Therefore, I will simply ask the witness to
11 confirm and to read out to the interpreters the heading of the document
12 so that the interpreters can interpret for it.
13 Q. Would you please read it but slowly.
14 A. "Serbian Democratic Party Bosnia and Herzegovina
15 Board in Sanski Most number 28/91, date 29th of April, 1991.
16 "Heading: To the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of
17 Sanski Most."
18 Q. Very well. Would you read the first sentence, please.
19 A. "We kindly ask that based on the inter-party agreement of the SDS
20 branch in Sanski Most and the Party of Democratic Action of Sanski Most,
21 we ask you to request consent from the Ministry of the Interior of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina for appointment of the chief of the public security
23 station in Sanski Most."
24 Q. Now stop there. We see that your personal details are -- come
25 after that. We don't need to go over them. It would take too much time.
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now could we please turn to the
2 following page.
3 Q. We can see here personal details of another two candidates, and
4 would you please read the last sentence at the very bottom where it says:
5 "We kindly ask ..."
6 A. "We kindly ask that based on the agreement between the SDA and
7 SDS of Sanski Most, you give priority to the candidate under number 1,
8 Dragan Majkic."
9 Q. Yes. And on the left side we see the stamp of the SDA party and
10 on the right-hand side we see the stamp of the SDS party. So is this
11 what you spoke about, about you receiving approval from other political
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we mark this
15 document for identification, and I do have the promise given by the CLSS
16 that the translation would be ready tomorrow, and since the witness has
17 recognised, so to speak, his own nomination in this document then could
18 we MFI it until we receive the translation.
19 JUDGE HALL: It is so marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D79, marked for identification, Your
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Majkic, let me remind you of your own words. Regardless
24 of who nominated you, your duty was to work in the interest of all
25 nations. Did I interpret your words correctly?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you then, due to that, if I may say so, freeze or put on hold
3 your political work within the secretariat of the Serbian Democratic
4 Party? And I will put to you what you said in paragraph 28 of your
5 statement where you said:
6 "This meeting was held after I had been appointed chief of police
7 in Sanski Most ..."
8 And then you say:
9 "I did not attend the meeting. As a professional policeman I did
10 not wish to be seen as somebody who was politically active."
11 Now, my question for you is this: This attitude of yours, does
12 it arise from a broader view that prosecutors, policemen, and so on
13 cannot be politically active while in office?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Majkic, you will agree with me, won't you, that police work
16 is universal throughout the world. My colleague mentioned an English
17 bobby, policeman, who has one kind of uniform; Italian Carabinieri have
18 different uniforms; French Gendarmes have yet another uniform, but all of
19 them carry out a similar kind of work; am I right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So regardless of the uniform and symbols -- so regardless of the
22 uniform and symbols, your work is basically the same?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I will then ask you to read -- to look at and read a document
25 that has been translated, 65 ter 1, please.
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian it's page 5. In
2 the English version it's page 13.
3 Q. This is the Law on Internal Affairs of the Socialist Republic
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1990, Article 41.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the year of the
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, you're asked to repeat the year of
8 the law, please.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will. It was 1990. Do we have
10 Article 41? We need the end of that article that begin with the words
11 "authorised officials."
12 Q. Now, Mr. Majkic, would you please start reading out the first
14 A. You mean "authorised officials"?
15 Q. Yes, but slowly.
16 A. "Authorised officials have the right and the duty" --
17 Q. No, no, no, no. The third paragraph from the bottom starts with
18 the same words, with the same words "authorised officials."
19 A. "Authorised officials have" --
20 Q. No, no, underneath.
21 A. All right.
22 "Authorised officials give a solemn declaration before the
23 republic secretary or an official authorised by him."
24 Q. All right. Now read the text of the solemn declaration.
25 A. The text of the solemn declaration reads:
1 "I declare that I will perform the duties of an authorised
2 official conscientiously and responsibly, that I will abide by the
3 constitution and the law, and that I will protect with all my power the
4 constitutionally determined system, the rights, freedoms, and safety of
5 working people and citizens, and that I will perform these and other jobs
6 and tasks of an authorised official, even in the cases when their
7 execution may put my life in danger."
8 Q. Are you familiar with the text of the solemn declaration?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And this is from the time when you yourself were a policeman?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now is the good time
13 to compare the translation of the term "solemn declaration." I think
14 that in the translation we see the word "oath" if I'm not mistaken,
15 whereas in the original in the Serbian, as the witness has read out, it
16 says "solemn declaration." We will request that Article 41 of the
17 English version of this law be changed and sent to the CLSS translation
18 service in order to be corrected so that it corresponds to the original.
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, we took Mr. Zecevic's point on that on
20 Friday and the matter was referred to CLSS, so it's not anything that the
21 Chamber can do. We fully understand the problem and the -- Mr. Zecevic's
22 observations in which inferentially the Prosecution have concurred all a
23 matter of record now. I don't know that there is anything further that
24 the Chamber could or indeed do.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I took note of that.
1 Our intervention was duly recorded in the transcript. So these different
2 formulations will need to be changed, and the reason why I showed this
3 text to the witness is of a different nature. I'm leading witness to
4 that and we will get to that matter.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now Mr. Zecevic is telling me that
7 this is a different document, not the one on account of which he
8 intervened the other day, and this is why we ask that this document also
9 be corrected by the translation service. So that's what I wanted to say
10 on the record.
11 JUDGE HALL: I'm sorry, there's a problem with the document
12 that's presently before us? Oh, I see. Again, the -- this will be
13 married to the -- what we said on Friday would be sorted out. Thank you.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Majkic, in the text of this solemn declaration, you see the
16 words "protect the constitutionally determined system." See that word?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then it says "the rights, freedoms, and safety of working
19 people and citizens ..." so remember these two words "system" and the
20 rights, freedoms, and so on.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see document 65 ter
22 53, please, which is the Law on the Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska
23 from 1992. We need page 6 in the B/C/S version and page 9 in the English
24 version. As it happens, we need the same article, 41. The lower part,
25 please, with the reference to the solemn declaration. Yes, that one. In
1 English as well -- oh, it's there.
2 Q. Mr. Majkic, you've already heard what is on the screen. You
3 don't have to read it aloud this time, this last paragraph which says
4 that authorised officials shall make a solemn declaration. Just read it
5 to yourself and then I'll ask my question.
6 A. It's all right.
7 Q. While you're reading, this English version refers to a formal
8 statement. Obviously this is a third translation that again has to be
9 harmonised with the original.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, is your purpose of bringing these
11 documents to this witness to have the translation issue settled? Because
12 if so, then I suggest that we -- you can just do it directly without
13 having to go through a witness. Mind you, your half-hour is almost up
14 and we have a witness waiting in Sarajevo I believe it is.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was not my
16 intention to correct the translations now while the witness is reading.
17 I just wanted to draw your attention to the reason why we keep
18 intervening about this.
19 Q. Mr. Majkic, have you read it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you make notes of the two words that I asked you to pay
22 attention to? They're not in the text, "working people" and "citizens."
23 That's not in the text. It only says "rights, freedoms, and security."
24 These are very general terms without any reference to working people and
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You will agree that this term, "working people and citizens," is
3 a relic or a remnant from the previous communist terminology, and that's
4 why it was omitted probably. And instead of the word "order" or "system"
5 we see "the established arrangement of the republic, the established
6 order of the republic."
7 Let me ask you -- let me not say everywhere in the world, but in
9 in every region of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 A. Well, every policeman who read this would accept and sign
11 something like this without thinking long. In Capljina where I worked,
12 for instance --
13 Q. For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, tell us where Capljina was.
14 A. In Herzegovina
15 THE INTERPRETER: Correction:
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even if I were from Capljina I
17 would sign this.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So a policeman who wants to be an authorised official and is not
20 prepared to fight for the values enshrined in this solemn declaration is
21 practically unable to perform his duties because this is his legal
22 obligation; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you entered the courtroom, the first document you were shown
25 was the text of the solemn declaration; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you accepted it. It is then a logical conclusion that you
3 want to be a witness and that you are prepared to speak only the truth.
4 You remember the text of the solemn declaration?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If you had not accepted, we would have to infer the opposite,
7 that you don't want to be a witness and you don't want to speak the
8 truth; am I right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mr. Majkic, the only other thing I want to deal with is the
11 termination of your job. Yesterday you were shown a document, conclusion
12 of the crisis of the 30th of April, 1992. You said you were present at
13 the time when the item of the agenda was discussed or related to your
14 replacement by Mirko Vrucinic.
15 A. They had invited me --
16 Q. Just be brief.
17 A. They had invited me to that meeting just to inform me that I was
18 replaced and that Mirko was taking over and that a solution should be
19 found as to where I would work next, whether in the police or somewhere
21 Q. I'd like you to look at one document 1D00-6759. There it is.
22 Mr. Majkic, can you see it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The Crisis Staff not only adopted the decision, but also drafted
25 an official appointment for Mirko Vrucinic. You are a policeman and you
1 know the format of appointment to important jobs in the police. You will
2 agree with me that this is not the proper way. This is a different way?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This decision of the Crisis Staff, nevertheless, took effect.
5 Mr. Vrucinic took over, assumed the job?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Does this confirm that at that time Crisis Staff were the main
8 authority at the local and regional level alike?
9 A. The only -- not only the most important but the only authority.
10 Q. Mr. Majkic, Sanski Most after the Dayton Accords remained within
11 the territory of the Federation, that is, outside Republika Srpska;
13 A. A smaller part which is now the municipality Ostra Luka remained
14 within Republika Srpska.
15 Q. Is that a settlement?
16 A. No, it's a municipality.
17 Q. But the main part of Sanski Most remained within the Federation?
18 A. Yes, the greatest part of what used to be the municipality of
19 Sanski Most.
20 Q. Help me now, you said you went back to work in Sanski Most?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When?
23 A. 2nd October 2000
24 the cantonal MUP of Bihac, that was the base. I just had an office in
25 Sanski Most.
1 Q. You were working, your report on fire protection was made from
2 that post?
3 A. We were later abolished because until that time we had dual
4 authority, as an inspectorate and as authorised officials. In 2003 the
5 powers of police were abolished as far as we were concerned, and we
6 remained an inspection authority.
7 Q. There, in the police force, they wear different uniforms and
8 different emblems. We discussed that yesterday; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were not bothered by working among such colleagues wearing
12 A. Of course I didn't mind. If I did, I wouldn't have returned.
13 Q. At the time when you were chief in Sanski Most, that's when this
14 transformation happened?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. After you stopped being chief, you continued to work in Sanski
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Betonirka, Krings Hall, and the sports hall, Manjaca were
20 mentioned here. You were not afraid of going back to Sanski Most to be
21 among Muslims and Croats, despite what I just mentioned?
22 A. If I had been afraid, I wouldn't have returned.
23 Q. So you did not feel you were responsible for any of those things,
24 so you did not fear coming back?
25 A. Naturally.
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to
2 tender document 1D00-6759, and that's the appointment -- the document
3 appointing Mr. Mirko Vrucinic as chief of the public security station.
4 The witness is aware of this document, and I would like to tender it.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection, if Your Honours please.
6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D80, Your Honours.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have just one more question
9 before I finish with this witness.
10 Q. Mr. Majkic, after you were no longer chief --
11 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I go on? Just one more
14 Q. So after you were no longer chief, you continued to work at the
15 public security station of Sanski Most and you were doing your job, which
16 is fire protection?
17 A. I returned after about a year to those -- to that job in CSB
18 Banja Luka.
19 Q. Until when did you remain in Sanski Most?
20 A. Until July 1993.
21 Q. Did you have occasion to go out to on-site investigations in
22 cases of explosions, fires, et cetera, in 1993 -- sorry, 1992?
23 A. I had two cases when although I was not the fire inspector the
24 crimes involved fires and other criminal acts, and investigators asked
25 me, investigators from the public security station of Sanski Most, asked
1 me to go help investigate the crime scene. I know that on two occasions
2 I went in case of fire. One case was in Kamengrad and one former
3 policeman of ours, a Muslim, was injured. Zdravko Savanovic and I both
4 detected and apprehended the perpetrators within 24 hours and turned the
5 perpetrator over to the public prosecutor. Another case happened in
6 Naprelje village, there was a fire and looting. There were four or five
7 persons involved in the crime, and four of us, myself and some of the
8 crime scene officers went to the scene, investigated on-site, and within
9 48 hours the entire group was identified, apprehended, and turned over to
10 the public prosecutor.
11 Q. The perpetrators were Serbs; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In that first case the victim was a Muslim; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. One question of a general nature, since you were working within
16 the public security station. If you were aware of any criminal case --
17 were you aware of any crime that the police did not investigate?
18 A. No, and I could hardly believe that the police would act in that
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've finished with
21 this witness.
22 MR. PANTELIC: Before my learned friend -- before my learned
23 friend from Prosecution will take the line of re-examination, can we go
24 to private session because I want to raise and to bring to the attention
25 of this Trial Chamber certain issue with regard to the other part of
1 testimony of this witness, please.
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, private session.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 3253-3258 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
2 Q. Mr. Majkic, you were asked a number of questions about passages
3 from your statement during the course of cross-examination. I will take
4 you to some of them. You were asked questions about paragraph 28 of your
5 statement. Just bear with me while I find the location in the
6 transcript, please.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: And perhaps if the statement could be made
8 available to the witness on the screen. Yes, it's 65 ter 9003.
9 Q. You were asked questions about being politically active and the
10 quote was put to you from your statement:
11 "I did not attend the meeting. As a professional policeman I did
12 not wish to be seen as somebody who was politically active."
13 In fact in your statement you said, and talking about this
14 meeting with the secretariat:
15 "This meeting happened after I'd been appointed as chief of
16 police. I didn't go to the meeting. As a professional policeman I did
17 not wish to be seen to be politically active." For that reason you
18 stopped attending meetings. You were criticised for that by members of
19 the SDS. Therefore, you attended a few meetings to avoid criticism. You
20 tried to explain your position and that you wanted to be seen as
21 independent, and the Executive Board said that you should keep working as
22 chief of police "but I should attend their meetings more often to give
23 them more information about my work."
24 So that's the context in which you made the statement of your
25 desire to be not seen as politically active. Did you, in fact, attend
1 further SDS meetings following that dispute? Just answer yes or no.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you attend any HDZ or SDA meetings?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you -- how many meetings did you go to all
6 together of the secretariat of the SDS in Sanski Most and, and, the
7 Executive Board? Don't forget we've heard about the meetings you've
8 already told us about. I'm talking about other ones.
9 A. I have said this earlier. As soon as I was appointed chief, I
10 immediately let them know that I would put on hold, I would freeze, my
11 position with the SDS because it -- my profession did not allow me to
12 continue with it. And all of them accepted that. However, over time
13 within the Executive Board of the party they started spreading lies about
14 me. Then some people from the Executive Board contacted me and conveyed
15 to me what had been happening at the Executive Board. They suggested to
16 me that it would be good if I were to come to a meeting of Executive
17 Board to deny all that. As a result of suggestions of some friends from
18 the SDS, I did precisely that. I came to the meeting, I denied all of
19 that --
20 Q. Thank you for that. Could you just explain to the Trial Chamber
21 why it was that you attended SDS meetings, but not HDZ and SDA meetings
22 given your evidence that you wanted to be above politics or considered
23 that police chiefs should be above politics? And I include in this
24 question all the meetings in April of 1992 including the meetings before
25 the take-over of the police station and the attack on the municipality,
1 the municipality building. I'm sorry, did you have the question
2 translated to you or not?
3 A. Yes, I did receive the translation, but somehow your question was
4 too long. Could you please make it more specific.
5 Q. All right. You've told us that you wanted to be above politics
6 and that a chief of police should be above politics. You were attending
7 SDS meetings -- sorry, the Executive Board of the SDS meetings in April
8 of 1992, including the period of time just before the take-over of the
9 police station or the events relating to the police station and the
10 municipality building. Why, given that you were -- you wanted to be
11 above politics?
12 A. Well, on the 14th of April I attended the meeting of the SDS.
13 That was the only meeting I attended, not other ones, and I came upon the
14 invitation of Mr. Rasula. And since I knew what the topic would be at
15 the meeting, I naturally had to come precisely because of the topic which
16 was the ultimatum. I knew that there would be an ultimatum. Therefore,
17 I believed that I had to come to the meeting to see what they wanted. I
18 wanted, and I was pleased to hear that the SOS started doing this via the
19 SDS and not directly, and this is why I thought that I needed to come to
20 this meeting and that if something needed to be done then it was better
21 for the SDS to do it rather than the SOS.
22 Q. Well, thanks for that. You were asked about paragraph 111 of
23 your statement.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we get that up. There shouldn't be any
25 trouble. They're all -- all the paragraphs are numbered, both B/C/S and
1 English. Paragraph 111.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Di Fazio, how much longer are you going to be?
3 It's 12.05 now.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I would probably be about another 15 minutes I
5 would say. I'm going to go as swiftly as I can. 10 to 15 minutes is my
6 estimate. If Your Honours are minded to adjourn for the break, that
7 wouldn't be such a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. I might be able to
8 cut it down.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just one matter and that's the
11 question of protective measures for the next witness, which I know
12 there's a matter certainly that I want to raise about it and I heard that
13 Mr. Krgovic wants to discuss it. So whether that affects whether the
14 videolink can be set up or not, I'm not sure, but it will have to be
15 discussed before you speak to the witness.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Okay. Just before the break I was asking you about paragraph
24 111, which -- about which you were asked in cross-examination. Now, in
25 paragraph 111 you spoke about people being detained in various places and
1 hearing that on the radio. That was pointed out to you by Mr. Pantelic.
2 And in paragraph 11 you also say basically people from mixed marriages
3 were being released. And in paragraph 111 you go on to talk about how
4 you did exactly that by going along to help this Muslim son of a woman
5 who was causing -- who was seeking your help.
6 Do you know why people from mixed marriages were being released?
7 A. I have explained paragraph 111 several times already. It refers
8 to citizens of Muslim ethnicity from the neighbourhood of Mahala. After
9 the army operation on the 27th of May, the residents dispersed throughout
10 the city, finding accommodation with friends and relatives. And then
11 several days later the army went through the town and through the
12 villages looking for people from Mahala, asking to see IDs. And whoever
13 had an ID with a registered address in Mahala would be taken to the
14 sports hall. So this refers to those citizens, not to citizens who were
15 brought in for crimes they may have committed and so -- so this was
16 immediately after the first operation conducted in Mahala and it refers
17 to the citizens who were held there for a brief period of time and then
18 transported to Cazin, towards Bihac. So it refers to these people and
19 not to those who were brought in later.
20 Q. And just to explain that last aspect of your answer, these people
21 were transported to Bihac and that was to Bosnian-held territory,
22 Muslim-held territory; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How were they transported? What means?
25 A. By buses.
1 Q. Right. So they were rounded up, put into custody, put into
2 buses, and taken off to Bihac?
3 MR. KRGOVIC: I -- Your Honour, I will object. That's a leading
5 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a summary of a point of -- piece of evidence
6 that the witness has given. I'm just asking clarification if that was
7 the correct sequence of events.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: It's not allowed in the chief. That's the point.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Well, I'll move on.
10 Q. You also -- when Mr. Pantelic was cross-examining you about
11 paragraph 111, you spoke about the operation in Mahala after the 27th and
12 that somebody issued a decision and they went through Mahala, going door
13 to door looking for people from Mahala. When they took them there they
14 were transported -- sorry, they were -- they took them to the sports hall
15 where they were kept for several days and then taken to Cazin via
16 Bosanska Krupa. Who is "they"?
17 A. It was all done by the army, all of that.
18 Q. Thanks. And Mr. Pantelic then asked you if the public prosecutor
19 was in a position that -- to have information on several aspects that
20 could be prosecuted that people could be prosecuted for. And you said:
21 "Yes, naturally."
22 Now, first of all, we've got to be clear about what was being
23 said there. Did you understood that to mean that Mr. Pantelic was saying
24 to you this: The public prosecutor in Sanski Most had information about
25 the people who were being rounded up in Mahala? Is -- did I understand
1 you correctly or not?
2 A. I explained to Mr. Pantelic precisely what I have just explained
3 to you. He wanted to ask me about the public prosecutor, and I remember
4 telling him that this involved this group of people. And as for the
5 public prosecutor, what he referred to was something that was done later,
6 whether people were brought in, interviewed, and so on. I couldn't tell
7 you anything about that. I don't know. I didn't take part in that. I
8 took his question about the public prosecutor to refer to the later
9 period of time, when people were brought in to the police station, not to
10 refer to this group of people. Whether somebody was taken out of this
11 group of people due to some activity, I don't know. It is possible that
12 it was so. It would have been logical, but I don't know about that.
13 This group was there for a brief period of time, and then they were
14 transported. It was all done by the army. I actually don't know who
15 physically transported them, but I know that the army detained them in
16 town, in Mahala, and then they were brought there and then later
17 transported elsewhere.
18 Q. Okay. So you're not saying, are you, that the public prosecutor
19 had any information or details about any crimes committed by people
20 rounded up in Mahala and taken off to these detention centres?
21 A. Well, what I said was that I couldn't say anything about this
22 matter. I know the event and what happened, and as for the prosecutor, I
23 know nothing about that and I didn't claim otherwise to him. I simply
24 clarified what this referred to, namely, that it referred to what was
25 done later, subsequently.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, this morning over the
3 course of the evidence this witness was cross-examined about the content
4 of his statement. He's now been re-examined about the content of his
5 statement and in fact he was cross-examined about the content of his
6 statement on a number of topics greater than the two that I've mentioned
7 this morning -- in my re-examination. In those circumstances, I apply to
8 tender the statement into evidence.
9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3 --
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I?
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we still have the
14 witness in the courtroom. This is not a 92 ter witness, and we object to
15 his statement being admitted into evidence. Had we known that, we would
16 have examined him in a different manner. Perhaps we would have dealt at
17 greater length with the statement and so on.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that's a choice the Defence made. I mean,
19 they have cross-examined on the document, various points of it. You need
20 the document there in order to understand his evidence, and I've
21 re-examined on precisely some of those issues. And it is a rule that
22 that should occur when -- in those circumstances.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you remember, we
24 only used the statement to lead the witness in cross-examination, and we
25 received specific answers from him on specific questions. We asked him
1 on everything that was of interest to us, we asked him that directly in
2 the courtroom, and that's how he answered it.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: That might be true, but the fact is that we -- in
4 order to -- it's illustrated by virtue of the fact that I had to
5 re-examine on it and put some of his answers into context. That's why
6 you need it.
7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Di Fazio, Mr. Cvijetic, it seems to me that the
8 word that occurred to me is the same one that Mr. Di Fazio used, namely,
9 context. I understand the Defence counsel's reservation, but I would
10 have thought that having regard to the use which has been made of this
11 document by both sides, that the only way the Chamber would be able to
12 make sense of the evidence is to see it in the context in which it
13 occurred. And the Chamber must be credited with the ability and
14 intelligence to separate what is -- what it should have regard to in the
15 statement as an exhibit and what it shouldn't.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is up to you to
17 rule. However, the statement of this witness is so extensive that we
18 would then have to ...
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HALL: We'll move on. We'll -- the statement is admitted.
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]
22 Exhibit P362.
23 MR. DI FAZIO:
24 Q. One of the topics of cross-examination this morning was your
25 dismissal. You were shown a document dealing with your dismissal by
1 Mr. Cvijetic, and you commented that the manner in which the Crisis Staff
2 dismissed you was not a proper way, not a proper method. And then you
3 said that the Crisis Staff was the greatest authority, in fact the only
4 authority. Are you saying that on the basis of your dismissal in --
5 contained in that document or on something else? Or is it based on
6 something else; and if so, explain precisely to the Trial Chamber on what
7 basis you make that assertion.
8 A. I said at that point in time, when the Crisis Staff was
9 established, that was the only organ in power. Only later when the
10 Assembly was convened, the parliament, there was then another organ. But
11 in those days, back then, there was just a Crisis Staff as the sole
12 organ. And then on the 4th of April, when the Assembly was convened and
13 the Executive Board and so on, there came to be other organs and the
14 Crisis Staff continued working.
15 Q. All right. You were also asked in cross-examination about the
16 occupations of some of the police staff in the list of police employees,
17 and you made the point that there were only small numbers of active
18 policemen. If there was small numbers of active policemen in Sanski Most
19 and that caused problems in dealing with various issues that were arising
20 in the municipality, did you ever consider going to Mr. Zupljanin in
21 Banja Luka and seeking more police assistance?
22 A. I have already said several times that the crimes that were
23 committed, we certainly had suspicions but we had no evidence. And the
24 SOS were acting like any ordinary citizens. And we needed to uncover
25 this so that everything would become known --
1 Q. Yeah, my question is really simple. If you had trouble with
2 numbers of police dealing with the problems that you faced, did you
3 consider going to see Mr. Zupljanin in Banja Luka and seeking assistance?
4 A. I'm going to repeat once again. If the perpetrators as we
5 considered were paramilitaries, then it did not even occur to me because
6 Mr. Zupljanin had reports on all of these crimes that had been committed.
7 He had a report on each crime. So it did not even occur to me to go to
8 that level until I was sure that it was really them who were behind that.
9 Had I found some trace which would enable me to determine who the
10 perpetrator was, then yes, I would have gone to him. But since I didn't,
11 I didn't go to him for instructions.
12 Q. Okay. And does that mean that Mr. Zupljanin had information
13 about crimes committed by suspected SOS members?
14 A. Well, given that there was daily reporting, whenever a crime was
15 committed it was included in the daily report plus into the monthly
16 report. So the reports were always sent to the centre.
17 Q. Okay. I'll wrap this up.
18 I want to refer to 2D02-0440, a Defence exhibit that was
19 handed -- used this morning. I don't think there's a B/C/S. In any
20 event, if there is a B/C/S, could that be made available but I don't
21 think there is. And if it could be put on the screen anyway.
22 Mr. Majkic, unfortunately you're at a bit of a disadvantage here
23 because it's in English, but I'll just direct your attention to one or
24 two passages in here. This is -- it's a daily report, and you can see in
25 the first paragraph it says that the team visited the municipality of
1 Sanski Most and had a meeting and present at the meeting were a number of
2 individuals. One was Rasula Nedeljko, we've already heard about him;
3 Mirzet Karabeg; another gentleman named Ivica Pranic; and your name,
4 Mr. Dragan Majkic. So is that what you recall of the meeting, that there
5 were four people, you and Rasula and then Karabeg and Pranic?
6 A. I remember that people came from the Red Cross. I remember that
7 now. I also remember that there were discussions, but I can't -- and
8 these people look like likely attendees, but --
9 Q. Okay. Thanks. And you were -- this morning your attention was
10 drawn to a passage in that document that the team received - that is, the
11 team that visited - the team received confirmation from all three ethnic
12 groups that they were armed but nobody felt threatened. I want to draw
13 your attention to the conclusions of the document on the second page, and
14 this is what it says in English. So this is what say they:
15 "However, they tried to give the impression," and "they" must be
16 a reference to you and your other fellow Sanski Most citizens, "they
17 tried to give the impression of good cooperation. It was clear that
18 Muslim and Croatian communities are scared of the Serbian authorities.
19 If this is not solved it could lead to internal conflicts among the
20 ethnic groups."
21 When you went to that meeting, did you have any impression of
22 this sense of fear on the part of the Muslim and Croatian communities
23 that the report alludes to?
24 A. There was never any fear. People were not afraid from
25 authorities, none of the three were. Had there been any fear, then
1 perhaps they would have acted differently from the SDA and the HDZ. On
2 the contrary, they always acted normally, had normal political
3 discussions, adopted decisions jointly. There was never even any
4 out-voting. I think that their conclusions were adopted to the benefit
5 of all three nations at the time.
6 Q. Well, that might be your views about the general situation, but
7 as far as the meeting was concerned do you recall anything that might
8 have given the authors of this little report the impression that the
9 Muslim and Croatian communities are scared? Did anything like that
10 happen in the meeting that might give them that impression?
11 A. Just perhaps the fear of SOS. The SOS was the only entity that
12 could have affected the Muslims and the Croats, and even among the Serbs
13 within the SDS and among the Serbs some people were afraid of the SOS.
14 Q. Was that raised in the meeting, can you recall, or is that just
15 conjecture on your part, the SOS I mean?
16 A. There was nothing else. The SOS was the only factor on account
17 of which the fear was mentioned. As for the politics, I'm not aware of
18 any conflict that ever erupted between them, especially at the time when
19 there were attempts to annex Sanski Most to the Autonomous Region of
20 Krajina. Even though the SDS did not manage to get the vote of this
21 final Croat, even then there was no conflict, no argument, between them,
22 the Muslims and Croats, because of that. They simply had a democratic
23 process, they had a vote, and they moved on. So the only fear could have
24 been the fear of the SOS. Everything else was normal. The organs were
25 functioning normally. We had the Council for National Defence and the
1 leaders from all organs were members of the Council of National Defence,
2 and they always discussed all matters relating to safety and security in
3 Sanski Most. And I don't know that ever at those meetings there was any
4 expression of fear of authorities. All we heard was those were the
5 things done the SOS. This is why I included the police commander and
6 police force into investigations so that whenever an explosion was heard
7 a policeman went out to do their job so that it wouldn't be too late.
8 The commander was the first one to arrive on site together with policemen
9 whenever something happened, but we were never able to establish anything
10 that would clearly lead us to the conclusion that it had been done by the
11 SOS. We had our suspicions, but we're police after all. We can't work
12 on the basis of mere suspicions without evidence and facts.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: No further questions, if Your Honours please.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Majkic, I have a few small questions for you,
16 please. When speaking about the meeting on the 14th of April, 1992
17 where SOS presented their ultimatum - you remember speaking about
18 that - you told us that the -- that SOS took the initiative to propose
19 the establishment of a Crisis Staff. That's correct?
20 A. The SOS came to the meeting that they had asked Mr. Rasula to
21 convene. They came with an ultimatum already written concerning the
22 take-over of the police station. When it was decided to proceed
23 peacefully, they had already arrived with a proposal as to who's going to
24 be on the Crisis Staff. Their leader, Njunja, got to his feet and said,
25 "We have a proposal for the Crisis Staff."
1 Dr. Dusan Nikolic and I who were included as potential members of
2 that Crisis Staff were opposed, and we sort of explained our reasons why
3 we didn't want to be on the Crisis Staff. And then the president of the
4 SDS got up and said, "Since Majkic and Nikolic don't want to be on the
5 Crisis Staff, I suggest that Rasula and I ex officio be on the Crisis
6 Staff." The leader of the party accepted that proposal and that's how
7 the Crisis Staff was set up.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And how am I to understand then what
9 you said a little bit further on:
10 "Probably Mr. Rasula had some instructions from the top, that is
11 to say from Mr. Karadzic."
12 If the initiative -- was it an initiative of SOS to make that
13 proposal, or was that something that was already in preparation?
14 A. It's my opinion from all I know that the initiator of that
15 proposal about the Crisis Staff was not Rasula and was not Vrkes. The
16 investigators of the OTP showed me some instructions from Mr. Karadzic as
17 to who should be a Crisis Staff member, and then there it says "chief of
18 the police, head of the Assembly, president of the SDS." But they did
19 not put the president of the Assembly or the president of the SDS in
20 their proposal, which means that it was one of their own making. When
21 Vrkes heard it, he - knowing about these instructions - said that ex
22 officio he and Rasula should be on the Crisis Staff.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. Then something totally
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, just an intervention in
1 transcript. In page 70, 19, I believe the witness named the leader, it's
2 not of the party but somebody else, and the same group was mentioned in
3 71, 6. It says "they," but he mentioned their names, so maybe you can
4 clarify that with the witness, I mean for the sake of the transcript it
5 will be clear to who he's referring to.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, so you said in the English version:
7 "The leader of the party accepted that proposal."
8 Did you say "the leader of the party accepted that proposal and
9 that's how the Crisis Staff was set up"? The leader of what? It's just
10 to be sure that the English translation is correct.
11 A. President of the SDS, Vlado Vrkes. When Dr. Nikolic and I
12 withdrew, got up and said, "Since Majkic and Nikolic have withdrawn, I
13 propose that I and Rasula ex officio be named onto the Crisis Staff."
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. If that's okay with Mr. Zecevic --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I think the point is who accepted that. That
16 appears to be the point, because this is the proposal which the president
17 of the SDS is giving to the -- to somebody who is initiating this.
18 That's the whole point of my intervention, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm a little bit lost here.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honour, I'm sorry. I will try to make
21 myself clear. The testimony of the witness is that the group came -- set
22 up -- asked for a meeting. At the meeting he was present, the president
23 of the SDS. Now, this group proposed a number of candidates, the names.
24 He and the other person say, "We don't want to be." Then the president
25 of the SDS proposed that himself and the president of the Executive Board
1 be admitted to the Crisis Staff ex officio. And then this person who was
2 initiating this accepted that, and that is what is missing in the
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
5 Who accepted that, Mr. Majkic? Who accepted that? So when other
6 names were put in place of your name and the other one who didn't want
8 A. The initial proposal was of the SOS. The proposal was for eight
9 members, including me and Dr. Dusan Nikolic. When the two of us refused,
10 we explained our reasons, the SOS accepted that. When Rasula and the
11 other one suggested that they be included, the SOS accepted their
12 proposal to be included; and this proposal of the SOS, as amended by the
13 president of the SDS, was forwarded to the Executive Board of the SDS to
14 be approved.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. I suppose this is clear enough,
16 Mr. Zecevic?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Majkic, somewhere in the period before your resignation, the
20 Sanski Most court was taken over and the president, Mr. Draganovic, a
21 Muslim was removed. Do you know at what date this happened? It's
22 something totally different. I'm just asking you whether you know the
23 date of this event.
24 A. That happened after I was replaced, I don't know how long after,
25 but I know it happened. I heard about it but I was no longer chief.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. That's all.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Majkic, I too have one small question of
3 clarification for you, and it relates to an issue that you have been
4 drawn to a couple of times by counsels of both sides, namely, your
5 statement in paragraph 111. I don't know if the Registrar could put it
6 up to the witness so he can see it. I have noted that what you are
7 referring to in paragraph 111 and 112 is only the rounding up of Muslims
8 from the Mahala area. So I'm perfectly aware that we're only talking
9 about that group of people from that particular place. But in paragraph
10 111 you do actually say - and the Prosecution put that question to you
11 but I think you failed to give an answer and this is why I'm taking it up
12 again - you did actually say that basically, and I'm quoting from your
13 statement now, "people from mixed marriages were being released."
14 If we are lucky you can see it on the screen in front of you.
15 And I'm just curious what actually this was about.
16 Even in the group of Muslims from the Mahala district who were
17 being rounded up by the army, you say that persons -- or people from
18 mixed marriages were being released. First of all, did the army screen
19 the persons that they had rounded up and made sure that persons who were
20 from mixed marriages were being released? And if the army didn't do it,
21 then who did it, was it the police? And secondly, what was the purpose
22 of releasing people from mixed marriages? These are two questions that I
23 hope you can answer.
24 A. I don't know who made that decision, but I suppose the Crisis
25 Staff made the decision since a man from the Crisis Staff, Nemanja
1 Tripkovic, was in charge of them. He was supposed to take care of them
2 and to decide certain minor matters concerning them. I know the decision
3 was made that everyone from a mixed marriage should be released from the
4 sports hall. And then those who were from mixed marriages had to bring
5 proof that they were in a mixed marriage and then they were released.
6 Whoever brought such proof, married to a Serb man or woman -- I know
7 because I came to intercede for that young man and I said he has a
8 long-time relationship with a Serbian girl. That's how I wanted to get
9 him out. I --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter does not understand. Could the
11 witness please repeat this last bit.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Majkic, you speak too fast, so the
13 interpreters ask if you could please repeat the last part of your answer
14 and do it slowly.
15 A. I suppose that the Crisis Staff made that decision because a man
16 from the Crisis Staff was at the hall, in charge of them. And that
17 decision to release certain men -- certain people was related to a mixed
18 marriage in which one of the partners was a Serb. That's what I tried to
19 rely on when I interceded for this young man who was in his second year
20 of university at the University of Banja Luka. I tried to get him out by
21 saying he was in a long-term relationship with a Serbian girlfriend. And
22 then Nebojsa Tripkovic [as interpreted] said a man comes to me saying
23 that he's in a mixed Muslim/Croat marriage. He was laughing and I
24 laughed too. He was either playing a fool or he -- this man who was
25 claiming that he too was in a mixed marriage was either playing a fool or
1 he didn't really understand that a mixed marriage had to be with one Serb
2 partner in it. That's a real case that happened.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Apart from this case, let's get back to the
4 practical operation here. So in the sports hall, if some of the Muslim
5 persons who had been detained and were kept there had ID on them which
6 would certify that they were out of a mixed marriage, would they then go
7 to an army soldier at the gate and show this evidence and would then be
8 let out. Was that how it worked? I mean, did the army really take care
9 of the certification that people brought to them, or was that done by
10 somebody else?
11 A. Nemanja Tripkovic was in charge of that. He was there, and he
12 collected those proofs of mixed marriages. Now, where he sent that proof
13 for final decision I don't know, but I know there was a decision to
14 release people in mixed marriages. All I know is he was collecting these
15 papers and whether he was forwarding them to the Crisis Staff or someone
16 else, I don't know.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: And just to be sure, Nemanja Tripkovic, he was
18 not an army member, was he?
19 A. He was a member of the Crisis Staff. Now, whether he was a
20 member of the army -- we were all members of the army for that matter. I
21 just don't know where we had our wartime assignments, in the 6th Krajina
22 Brigade or in the civilian defence or the civilian protection. I really
23 don't know where his wartime assignment was.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. I also put the question to you the
25 reason why this decision was made. Do you know what was the reason for
1 the decision taken by the Crisis Staff that people from mixed marriages
2 should be released?
3 A. I said that I suppose it was the Crisis Staff. I don't know for
4 sure. Why, I don't know. It must have made sense to them. Now, what
5 kind of sense, I have no idea. You should ask someone who used to be on
6 the Crisis Staff, they would have to give you a specific answer. I
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. I just wanted to know if you knew
9 about the reason. But thank you very much, Mr. Majkic, I have no further
10 questions for you.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Majkic, your testimony is at an end.
12 You are now released. We thank you for your assistance to the Tribunal
13 and wish you a safe journey back to your home.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm not sure how much further we're
16 going to get today, but maybe we can just introduce the witness and deal
17 with this question of protective measures. Your Honours, he applied or
18 we applied, sorry, for him to have protective measures by a motion of
19 the - I'm looking for the date - 28th of September --
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Should we go to private session?
21 MS. KORNER: Oh, yes, we better go to private session. Thank you
22 very much, Your Honour.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I might excuse myself, if Your Honours
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 3282-3290 redacted. Private session.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
15 November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.