Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4199

 1                           Friday, 4 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to all.

 9     May I have the appearances, please.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I'm Tom Hannis with

11     Crispian Smith on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Deirdre Montgomery, and Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for

14     Stanisic Defence this morning.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

16     Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You have a matter, Mr. Zecevic, before

18     the witness takes the stand?

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, before the witness arrives, we

20     were instructed by the Trial Chamber to expedite our response in relation

21     to the motion to amend the Rule 65 ter list filed by the Prosecution

22     sometime ago.  And we are informing the Trial Chamber that we are not

23     objecting to it.  So thank you very much.

24             MR. PANTELIC:  After careful and detailed consideration,

25     Your Honours, we do not have objection.

Page 4200

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, Mr. Trbojevic.  I would, before I

 4     invite Mr. Zecevic to continue his cross-examination, remind you that you

 5     are still on your oath.

 6             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILAN TRBOJEVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:  [Continued]

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Trbojevic.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Mr. Trbojevic, before we begin there's just something that I

14     would like to clear up.  Yesterday in the course of my questioning, on

15     page 4.162, line 20, and 4.163, line 1, if you recall, we discussed the

16     attempts of the Serb side to block within the institutions of the system

17     the request for the declaration of independence [Realtime transcript read

18     in error "incompetent dependence"] of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you

19     said then that such possibilities were more than limited, or rather,

20     non-existent; but that in spite of that, the president, Alija Izetbegovic

21     would have signed such a document and sent it to the international

22     community, to which I ask whether he would have done that without the

23     approval of the Assembly and you confirmed that.  Do you recall our

24     exchange on that topic?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 4201

 1        Q.   Well, the reason I'm asking is because on these pages that I've

 2     mentioned, in the transcript is says that such a document would have been

 3     signed by the speaker of the parliament of the Assembly, but that's of

 4     course not true because the president of the parliament, or the Assembly,

 5     was Mr. Krajisnik at the time?

 6        A.   Well, that's not correct because we were discussing this within

 7     our group, how to actually postpone the vote on this, and whether we

 8     would ask or call for the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or

 9     maybe not.  And something that I omitted to mention yesterday was that

10     one the topics emerged was that we should actually address this issue to

11     the army command, at the time it was still the Yugoslav People's Army, so

12     that it could within its obligations, legal obligations, intervene in

13     order to prevent such a signing of a document that the president of the

14     Presidency, Mr. Izetbegovic, would sign without the approval of the

15     Assembly.

16             And on that occasion, Karadzic said that he could not go and see

17     General Djurdjevac, if I recall correctly, he was the commander of the

18     2nd Military District, that he couldn't go there and ask that of

19     Djurdjevac because he was one of the leaders of a national parties which,

20     as far as the JNA was concerned, still were not fully legitimate, as it

21     were.  So he could not really expect any kind of support from them as for

22     this position of the Serb side.

23        Q.   Just two things here, please.  So when we talked yesterday, you

24     said that the president of the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, would sign

25     that document and send it to the international community, or rather,

Page 4202

 1     would have signed it and sent it to the international community without

 2     the approval of the Assembly if that situation should arise?

 3        A.   Yes, that was our assessment.

 4        Q.   Very well.  And you said here that Karadzic told you that he

 5     could not really take this up with General Djurdjevac, and if I

 6     understood you correctly, Karadzic said that he could not influence in

 7     any way the Yugoslav People's Army, or rather, General Djurdjevac,

 8     because General Djurdjevac did not support, as it were, the positions of

 9     nationalist or ethnic parties because he was a member of the

10     Yugoslav People's Army, which was ideologically opposed to the SDS.

11     Correct?

12        A.   Yes, that's what he he said.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, just a small thing regarding the

14     transcript.  On page 2, line 16, the transcript has come out to say that:

15     "We discussed the attempts of the Serb side to block within the

16     institutions of the system the request for the declaration of incompetent

17     dependence," I think the witness said "independence."

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I wasn't

19     following the transcript in full. [Interpretation] Thank you,

20     Your Honours.

21        Q.   Witness, let's resume.  Mr. Trbojevic, thank you for this

22     clarification.  Now, you recall that on the 17th of June, 1992, an

23     operative plan of the army -- of the government was adopted.  Do you

24     remember that?  Or a plan of work?

25        A.   Well, I can't recall that I remember the date exactly.

Page 4203

 1        Q.   But do you recall that it was adopted?

 2        A.   Well, yes, there was some work done in that respect.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up

 4     1D00-552 on the screens, and perhaps the usher could help us and pass on

 5     to Mr. Trbojevic this document in hard copy.

 6        Q.   This is a cover letter dated 17th July 1992, signed by the

 7     government secretary, Mr. Lakicevic.  This is a document from the

 8     government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And it's a cover

 9     letter with the plan of work for the measures in order to prevent the

10     disruption in conditions in a state of war, and then ministries are

11     called upon to give their own proposals and suggestions, and a dead-line

12     of the 20th of July is given.  For the transcript, just to say that it

13     was signed by Mr. Nedeljko Lakic.  I misread the last name.  So this is

14     correct, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up the

17     second page.

18        Q.   On the second page, this is the title page of this document, we

19     see again that we have the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

20     government, an operative programme of measures to prevent social

21     disruption in conditions of a state of war.  And perhaps by error, or

22     rather, the error was probably in the cover letter, but the date here is

23     the 17th of June, 1992.  In any case it's either June or July.  Do you

24     recall when this came about approximately?

25        A.   Well, I can't really recall anymore the work that we did on this

Page 4204

 1     programme, but it begins with constitution amendments.  And, you know,

 2     would you just pose the question.

 3        Q.   Well, I just wanted to see if we could determine the exact date,

 4     but since you mentioned that these are constitutional amendments, I

 5     assume that it would rather be June than July?

 6        A.   Well, I can't really recall when we did this work, and I'm not

 7     claiming that this was actually adopted, because the Law on Territorial

 8     Organisation was never on the agenda, although it was constantly being

 9     discussed how districts should be set up and so on.  But that never came

10     to light actually, so that President Djeric, the prime minister, asked me

11     on a couple of occasions why that hadn't been followed through, but,

12     well, that's how it went.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look at

14     page 3 -- or rather, 4 of this document.  In B/C/S that's page 2 in your

15     hard copy.

16        Q.   Under item 3, we see that there is a decree on delineating or

17     establishing border crossings and organising customs control and, among

18     other things, this is the responsibility of the Ministry of the Interior.

19             Now, the day before yesterday when you were questioned by my

20     learned friend Mr. Hannis, he put to you a number of government

21     conclusions that related specifically to this matter, the establishment

22     of border crossings and organisation of customs control.  Do you recall

23     that?

24        A.   Well, I do know that we discussed this need, that this was a

25     necessity to establish a service that will check all the goods that are

Page 4205

 1     imported and exported out of the country, in other words, customs

 2     control, so that we could actually have an operational authority there,

 3     that it could function, and I recall that we appointed as director or

 4     perhaps acting director of this republic customs office, a certain --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I know he did not accept this

 7     but how it actually transpired in the end I don't know.  I couldn't tell

 8     you now.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   But do you remember that there were certain comments made by

11     Mr. Stanisic in government sessions?  You were shown some documents in

12     that respect yesterday that dealt with, among other things, the setting

13     of up of the customs or, rather, border service; do you recall that?

14        A.   Well, not really.

15        Q.   Do you recall that this setting up establishment of border

16     crossings, in other words, the establishment of the border police was

17     actually set up and that it started their work on some of the border

18     crossings in Republika Srpska in the course of 1992?

19        A.   I do recall that we made some decisions as to which places will

20     be the future border crossings.  This was probably within the competence

21     of the Ministry of the Interior to actually man those border crossings,

22     to provide the physical control there.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we can now take a look at page 5

25     in e-court.  On your hard copy, that will be page 3.  Items 8 and 9.

Page 4206

 1        Q.   This relates to the drafting of wartime organisation and

 2     systemisation, development of wartime organisation and specification of

 3     jobs.  And it says all ministries, other republic organs and

 4     organisations and state agencies are to draft their wartime organisation

 5     and specification of jobs implying a transition to wartime operation.

 6     And then in parenthesis it says determining the minimum number of

 7     employees needed for good performance and so on and so forth, and there

 8     is mention here of a war commission or commissions.

 9             Now, do you recall that this drafting of the wartime organisation

10     and specification of jobs had been a strict legal obligation in the

11     former Yugoslavia under the Law on the Self-Defence -- on All People's

12     Defence and --

13        A.   Yes, there was a schematic of jobs which have to function in

14     crisis situation up to mobilisation spots and relocation of companies,

15     et cetera.

16        Q.   And I presume that this was the basis for this obligation for all

17     the ministries and why it found its way in the operative programme of the

18     government of Republika Srpska?

19        A.   Yes, that's one on the one hand; but on the other hand you have

20     the duty of the people to be -- to heed the call-up, mobilisation

21     call-up.  Sometimes you never knew who would show up for work and who

22     would show up for mobilisation.  And this is why organisations had to

23     determine this matter so that the army could know who is going to stay

24     behind to work in an organisation or in a company and who is going to

25     show up at mobilisation spots.

Page 4207

 1        Q.   Very well.  The next I'd like to show you is page 8 in e-court

 2     and that would be page 6 in your copy.  Item 18.  It goes for an

 3     obligation under this operative programme to draft rules on internal

 4     organisation of the Ministry of the Interior in wartime conditions.  And

 5     under that heading it says:

 6             "Internal organisation" it means the Ministry of the Interior,

 7     "needs to be adjusted to the purview and tasks in wartime conditions,

 8     namely:  Protection and physical securing of installations of special

 9     importance to defence, and protection, and then control of movements

10     across the state borders, personal security," et cetera, et cetera, all

11     the tasks as laid down by law and that is envisaged as an obligation of

12     the Ministry of the Interior.

13             You recall that at several occasions, the government got reported

14     by the Ministry of the Interior on how they were working on these rules

15     of internal organisation in -- the first draft which was sent to centres

16     of public security was dated beginning of September 1992.  Do you recall

17     that?

18        A.   Yes, in principle I recall that there were discussions about

19     that.  This is the same thing as the previous matter that we discussed.

20     This is just customary and usual matter to be dealt with.

21        Q.   This is a voluminous document?

22        A.   Yes, it is.  Somebody must have gathered drafts and proposals

23     from all of the ministries, maybe drafting the government law and then

24     listed all the ministries quoting the obligations, et cetera.

25        Q.   No, I'm talking about the rules of internal organisation of the

Page 4208

 1     MUP, this is a voluminous and lengthy document; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Let's look up page 9 in e-court.  It would be page 7 in your

 4     version, in your hard copy.  Items 21 and 22.  As you can see, item 21

 5     deals with:

 6             "Order to take off the road any motor vehicle without proper

 7     documentation."

 8             I think that yesterday we discussed that there was an instruction

 9     and a conclusion of the government to this effect.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes.  And this request that an order be issued to take such

11     vehicles off the road is a repetition of something which is enshrined in

12     law.  There's no possibility in law for a vehicle without proof of title

13     and without proper insurance to be used on roads.  This is one of the

14     usual tasks of the Ministry of Interior to perform.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, item 22:

16             "Decision on an ex-territorial principle organising active-duty

17     police force."

18             I think that we commented a document yesterday dated November,

19     and you confirmed that the influence of local organs on members of the

20     MUP was a huge problem, and obviously a huge problem for the ministry.

21     And now it reads, under 22:

22             "Due to the demonstrated extreme susceptibility of municipal

23     organs of Internal Affairs to the influence of local authorities and

24     family connections, it is necessary to establish criteria according to

25     which only a minimum number of employees of a police station may be

Page 4209

 1     natives of the given locality."

 2             First of all, let me ask you:  Do you recall this problem that we

 3     discussed yesterday, and that problem dating from 1992, don't you?

 4        A.   Yes, I do recall, and when this is -- concerned police workers in

 5     local police stations were predominantly inhabitants of that

 6     municipality.  People living in that local community and by function and

 7     in terms of their remit, they were connected with the Ministry of the

 8     Interior.  But people from Sarajevo or some other places could not work

 9     in other parts of the country, most of them were locals.  They worked

10     where they lived.  And this is one of the interpretations of this problem

11     and that the author of this was not quite familiar with this situation,

12     in my opinion.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to page 10, item 23 in

14     e-court.

15        Q.   And Mr. Trbojevic, that would be page 8 in your hard copy.  Goes

16     for:

17             "Operative programme of activities to secure the prerequisite for

18     efficient functioning of the Internal Affairs service."

19             And the Ministry of the Interior is obliged to co-operate with

20     the Ministry of Justice and Ministry of Defence.  What I'm interested in

21     in particular is paragraph 3 of this item, that would be on the next page

22     in the English version, first paragraph on the page, which reads:

23             "Within the framework of its activities, the ministry and its

24     services should make a special provision for an organised approach to

25     work related to data collection and processing, and the documentation and

Page 4210

 1     genocide perpetrated against the civilian population."

 2             Can you see this?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Please tell me, in this document under item 21, there is no

 5     mention --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Item 23, interpreter's correction.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   There's no mention of war crimes and genocide perpetrated against

 9     no particular group, but any perpetrators and the victims coming from any

10     ethnic group; is that correct?

11        A.   That's correct, yes.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] And then last page, page 22 in the

13     e-court, item 66.

14        Q.   That would be the last page, page 20 in your hard copy, item 66.

15     It is an "order to establish a state commission to investigate extreme

16     cases of theft and other abuses."  And it reads:

17             "Establish an interdepartmental commission made up of

18     representatives of the Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Justice, and the

19     responsible department, which would conduct investigations based on

20     reports received by the MUP."

21             This would be in -- this item of the operative programme and plan

22     is in keeping with what we discussed in terms of the government's

23     conclusions that have been sent to ministries on several occasions in

24     terms of TAS abuses, concerning oil, et cetera.  Is that correct?

25        A.   That's correct.  This is something which went a long time.  There

Page 4211

 1     were cases of procurement of oil worth millions of Deutschemarks and

 2     there were questions who took the money.  The Golf vehicles from TAS were

 3     the most prominent example and they were at the forefront.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If I understood you correctly, you think that this is

 5     a working material, working document and that you are not sure whether

 6     it's been -- it was ever adopted by the government?

 7        A.   I think it's a working document but I'm not sure.  I don't know

 8     whether it was adopted in its entirety, but what I'm sure about is that

 9     there was discussion about this and the ministries tried to work along

10     these lines, since these are legal obligations of each of those

11     ministries mentioned here.

12        Q.   So if I understand you correctly, all those ministries performed

13     tasks and duties mentioned in this operative plan?

14        A.   Yes.  This was an initiative which was sent to the organs.

15     Whether it was adopted in this form or in an amended form, that's what

16     I'm not sure about.

17        Q.   Sir, you saw page 1 and Nedeljko Lakic's signature.  Do you

18     recall his signature?

19        A.   I'm not a graphologist but it does look like his signature, very

20     much so.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

23     like to submit this document be tendered into evidence.

24             MR. HANNIS:  My only objection, and maybe it just goes to weight,

25     really deals with there are a number of handwritten notations in the

Page 4212

 1     original about whether something is completed or pending or question

 2     marks, et cetera.  I don't think this witness is able to help us with who

 3     wrote those and when they wrote them.  So with that understanding, I

 4     guess I don't object but I think that is something that you'll have to

 5     take in mind when considering this document.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  It seems to me that it follows a matter of course,

 7     the Chamber would have to take note of that.  So the document is admitted

 8     and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D96, Your Honours.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Trbojevic, I cannot recall, but I believe it

12     was the day before yesterday, maybe it was yesterday, Mr. Hannis showed

13     you a document, P233, minutes from a government session, where it stated

14     that the government ordered Mr. Mico Stanisic to determine and establish

15     the security situation at Bijeljina.  Do you recall commenting that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I found the reference, that would be pages 4099 and 4100, dating

18     the day before yesterday.  I would like to show you a document which is

19     connected with the establishment of the situation in Bijeljina.  I

20     believe that my learned colleague asked you about those facts, but he

21     didn't show you any documents.  It is 65 ter document 194.  It is a

22     document of the Ministry of the Interior, Centre of Security Service of

23     Bijeljina, dated 29th of July, 1992.  It is signed by the then head of

24     the Security Services Centre.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If I could ask Mr. Usher to give

Page 4213

 1     Mr. Trbojevic a hard copy.

 2        Q.   This document was sent to the president of the Presidency of the

 3     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Radovan Karadzic.  You see

 4     the first page?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Have you ever seen this document?

 7        A.   I don't think so.  I think I responded to -- replied to the

 8     Prosecutor that I had not seen it.

 9        Q.   Let's go to page 2, please.  It's starting with a heading

10     "Information," and it reads:

11             "Information on the involvement and activities of the Ministry of

12     Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in establishing

13     authority and the Rule of Law in the area covered by the Centre for

14     Security Services Bijeljina."  And it -- that document, Mr. Andan

15     explains what had happened between the 27th of June, 1992, when an expert

16     team of the MUP, of the Ministry of the Interior, of the Serbian Republic

17     of Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived to Bijeljina.

18             Can you see that?  That would be on page 2 and page 3 in e-court,

19     and in your hard copy, first and second page, the orientation would be

20     this 27th of June, 1992, for you.  Can you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   As far as I can recall, this end of June corresponds to the

23     request and the government's conclusion sent to Mico Stanisic instructing

24     him to establish the situation in Bijeljina, roughly?

25        A.   Yes, it does correspond.  Prosecutor asked me whether Stanisic

Page 4214

 1     went to Bijeljina.  I answered that I did not know that, but Andan now

 2     reports that he went to Bijeljina.  I'm not sure whether this is the same

 3     action or not, but it could be.

 4        Q.   Now, please, the last document, page 6 in e-court, and page 5 in

 5     your hard copy.  The penultimate paragraph, which reads:

 6             "Finally, to complete the picture, we must stress that there were

 7     fierce opposition and resistance to the involvement of the expert team of

 8     the MUP of the Serbian Republic of BiH, not only verbal but also armed.

 9     For example, some members of the expert team were threatened with

10     execution, various misinformation was put into circulation and lies were

11     spread about the alleged on-site activities and the rule of terror of the

12     expert team in the field, protest rallies against the 'newcomers' were

13     organised, and three unsuccessful attacks against the CSB building with

14     heavy weapons were carried out in order to seize the building and banish

15     the expert team of the MUP of the Serbian Republic of BiH."

16             Mr. Trbojevic, you read what is stated here and what

17     Mr. Dragan Andan, chief of the security services centre, wrote.  Are you

18     familiar with those incidents of armed attacks with heavy weapons against

19     the building of the CSB centre.

20        A.   I don't know anything about that.

21        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now, sir, would you please read the very

22     last portion, the very last sentence in the document.  It's handwritten.

23     And I believe this is Mr. Radovan Karadzic's signature.  Would you agree

24     with me?

25        A.   Yes, I can read it.

Page 4215

 1        Q.   Will you please answer?

 2        A.   "Keep enforcing order and the rule of law, Radovan Karadzic."

 3     This resembles his signature.  It looks like his own signature that I had

 4     occasion to see.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  But in any case, it arises from this document

 6     that the Ministry of the Interior again acted according to the

 7     conclusions ever the government; correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that this

11     witness was unable to authenticate this document or recognise it, I

12     propose that it be MFI'd because, if I recall, Mr. Andan is on the

13     witness list of the Prosecution and we will probably have occasion to put

14     this document to him when he comes to the stand.

15             MR. HANNIS:  That's fine, but actually based on my prior

16     understandings, I have no reason to doubt the authenticity.  I don't

17     object to admitting it now.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Even better.  Thank you very much, Mr. Hannis.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Tendered, marked and admitted.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D97, Your Honours.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Trbojevic, you said something to this effect during your

23     evidence, about in July, approximately at that time, the Ministry of the

24     Interior set up its seat, its headquarters in Bijeljina?

25        A.   Yes, it was transferred to Bijeljina.  I can't tell you the exact

Page 4216

 1     date, but about that time.

 2        Q.   And in fact, it was only in Bijeljina that the Ministry of the

 3     Interior began to operate normally, if I may use that term, as some time

 4     toward the end of July 1992?

 5        A.   Well, I believe that the fact that they actually all came

 6     together in a central building, there were finally conditions for normal

 7     work.

 8        Q.   Do you know that from mid-July and on, the Ministry of the

 9     Interior held so-called collegium meetings with all the chiefs of

10     Security Services Centre every month, all of those who could actually

11     attend?

12        A.   Well, I did hear of these collegium meetings and I heard of that

13     being the ministry's usual mode of work.  I never attended one of those,

14     but I know that this was common knowledge.  They discussed in these

15     meetings important issues that related to the ministry itself.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Are you aware that the Ministry of the Interior

17     dispatched inspectors from the headquarters to conduct inspections and

18     provide instructions to Security Services Centres and some public

19     security stations, are you aware of that?

20        A.   I don't know anything about that.

21        Q.   I assume then that you are not aware either that these

22     inspectors, after they completed these inspections, they would also

23     conduct checks?

24        A.   I don't know anything about that.

25        Q.   Do you know that the Ministry of the Interior, in the course of

Page 4217

 1     1992, adopted a number of significant rules of work and instructions that

 2     was -- were necessitated by their work, or were necessary for their work;

 3     do you know that?

 4        A.   Well, I can't say that I know about that, but if they were

 5     published in the Official Gazettes, then I probably had occasion to see

 6     them.  But I can't really recall.  I remember that there was some work

 7     done on the Law on Citizenship and there was some work that I

 8     participated in personally, but as for the rules of service, I don't know

 9     anything about that.

10        Q.   Very well.  Are you aware of a document called:  "The instruction

11     on the urgent, current and occasional reporting, statistical reporting in

12     Ministry of the Interior organs," dated October 1992?  This is document

13     1D51, an exhibit already.  I will show it to you and perhaps you will

14     recognise it.  Have you heard of this document, this instruction?

15        A.   No, I haven't.  I don't know about it.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist.

17     Please let Mr. Trbojevic see this document.  Maybe that will help him

18     refresh his memory.

19        Q.   Have you ever seen this document?

20        A.   I don't think so.

21        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

22             Let me then just read out to you in view of the fact that you

23     haven't seen this document, but maybe you've heard of these things.  Have

24     you heard of a document entitled:  "Instruction Issued in 1992:  An

25     instruction on the rules of conduct of MUP members."  And as a reference,

Page 4218

 1     this was Exhibit 1D50 in this case.  Have you heard ever of such a

 2     document?

 3        A.   No, I don't think so.

 4        Q.   Mr. Trbojevic, have you ever heard of the binding instruction

 5     during conducting searches?  For reference purposes, that's 1D52.

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Have you heard of a document entitled:  "Instructions on the

 8     methods on preparing annual reports"?  For your reference, this is 1D53.

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Are you familiar with the fact that the ministry adopted the

11     rules on disciplinary responsibility in a state of imminent threat of war

12     and in a state of war?  This was Exhibit 1D54 in this case.

13        A.   I can say that I know that -- well, I can't say that I know that

14     such rules have been adopted, but I do know that there was work done on

15     drafting rules, both in the army and in the police.  And I know that I

16     participated at the request of the Ministry of Defence in one such group

17     who worked on that, but how the thing was done within the police, I

18     really don't know.

19        Q.   But you do know that there was some work done in that direction

20     in order to actually adopt such rules; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   We discussed a few minutes earlier, the rules on the internal

23     organisation of MUP in a state of imminent threat of war and in a state

24     of war, and this has to do with the operative plan of the government,

25     item 18.  In this case, this is document 65 ter 248, a draft of those

Page 4219

 1     rules.

 2             You said that you remember, recall, that the rules were drafted,

 3     but do you remember whether you ever actually had it in your hands?

 4        A.   I don't think so.

 5        Q.   Very well.

 6        A.   But I believe that it was adopted because it would be very

 7     unlikely that such a document wouldn't be adopted.

 8        Q.   Well, it was only adopted in early 1993 because of the government

 9     ousting.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness's

11     answer.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Are you aware that the Ministry of the Interior adopted a

14     binding -- Witness, your response was not recorded in the transcript,

15     Mr. Trbojevic.  When I said that these rules were adopted practically in

16     early 1993 because the government had, in the meantime, the government

17     which you were the vice-president of, had been ousted, you said

18     something.

19        A.   Well, I didn't really say anything specific.  I had already said

20     before that, to me, it would seem highly unlikely that such a document

21     wouldn't be adopted.  Now, the fact that a few months had elapsed between

22     its drafting and adoption, now that's irrelevant.

23        Q.   Well, thank you.  Are you aware that the Ministry of the Interior

24     adopted a binding instruction on documenting war crimes?  For reference

25     this is document 1D63.  Are you aware of that?

Page 4220

 1        A.   Not specifically, but I do know that all the discussions on that

 2     issue implied that the documents and information should be obtained and

 3     from and provided by the police, because this was part of their work,

 4     collecting evidence and documents on crimes committed, so that any

 5     further discussion of that matter would proceed from that premise.

 6        Q.   This was an obligation that the police had under the Law on the

 7     Interior; correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   You recall that the Ministry of the Interior submitted on a

10     number of occasions information on the current security situation, this

11     information was reported to the government?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I believe that already on the 31st of May, 1992, such a report

14     was submitted, such a report on the current security situation.  For

15     reference purposes, that's Exhibit P221.  This is a document -- actually,

16     government minutes.  Can you confirm that?

17        A.   Well, I can't really confirm specifically because I can't tell

18     you which of those reports I saw -- I have seen, but I do know that there

19     were reports and there was information that was interesting to read for

20     one's own enlightenment.

21        Q.   I would now like to show you document 65 ter 176.  That's a

22     document coming from the Ministry of the Interior entitled "Information,"

23     a report submitted both to the president of the government, or the prime

24     minister, and the president of the Presidency.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help us with

Page 4221

 1     a hard copy.  The document bears the date 17th of July, 1992.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hannis asked you something about this document.  I believe

 3     that you said that you do not remember seeing this document, but let me

 4     show it to you again because one of the questions of Mr. Hannis's was a

 5     question about the report on the work of the state security service, if

 6     you remember.  Do you remember that?  Do you remember that question that

 7     Mr. Hannis put to you?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly what you mean.

 9        Q.   Well, Mr. Hannis asked you, the day before yesterday, about the

10     government conclusion in which the government sought a report on the work

11     of the state security service, and then he asked you whether you remember

12     ever receiving such a report, and you said that you couldn't confirm that

13     you -- but that you recall that there were a number of reports from the

14     Ministry of the Interior but you couldn't remember this particular one.

15        A.   Well, that's the only thing that I can repeat now.  I know that

16     there were such reports.  There was some information in such reports that

17     I hadn't heard of before, but what those reports were or how they were

18     entitled, I don't know.

19        Q.   Very well.  Tell me now, now that you've looked at this report

20     entitled:  Information on certain aspects of work done to date and the

21     tasks ahead, can you tell us, do you remember this particular document?

22        A.   Well, I can't see.  I would have to look through the content.

23     The subject matter was a general matter that was discussed -- being

24     discussed in those days.

25        Q.   Well, just for your reference, perhaps I can show you page 9 in

Page 4222

 1     e-court of the B/C/S version, the last paragraph, and in your case that's

 2     on page 9.  It's page 10 in the English version.  And it says here the --

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in

 4     e-court, please.  Page 9, B/C/S; 10 in English.  The last paragraph.

 5     Just a moment.  In English that will be on page 6, in the last paragraph,

 6     in e-court.  Page 6.  I apologise, on page 6 that's not the last

 7     paragraph but, rather, the second from the top, beginning with the words:

 8     "Preventing and documenting war crimes ..."  Thank you.

 9        Q.   You see it this document, Mr. Trbojevic, beginning with the

10     words:  "Preventing and documenting war crimes"?  The B/C/S copy is

11     perhaps a bit illegible, but can you find that?

12        A.   I can actually make it out.

13        Q.   And it reads:

14             "Prevention and documenting war crimes by using all legally

15     prescribed methods of documenting such activities," et cetera, et cetera,

16     et cetera, et cetera, and it reads that this was one of the priorities of

17     the National Security Service or state security service and public

18     security service.  Can you recall that?

19        A.   No, I cannot recall that.  My recollection is quite the opposite

20     to this claim that it was a priority.  In attempts to establish a

21     commission to investigation war crimes and what the extent for the

22     co-operation of the institute for investigating war crimes from Belgrade,

23     I did not have an impression that out on the field we encountered a

24     welcoming reception in the local public security stations whenever we

25     showed up.  To the contrary, we were being ignored.  There was no will on

Page 4223

 1     their part to co-operate.  So what is written here, that this was their

 2     priority, I do not believe to be true.

 3        Q.   Do you recall an action that the MUP, the Ministry of the

 4     Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, conducted in

 5     Zvornik in July 1992 to arrest the Yellow Wasps paramilitary group and to

 6     process those war crimes?  Do you recall that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do recall the existence of that group, some meetings with

 8     it, and when it was crushed.  And those meetings with them were less than

 9     savoury.  Whenever I encountered them, these were not savoury occasions.

10        Q.   Mr. Trbojevic, what I presented to you yesterday and today as

11     examples in connection with what the Ministry of the Interior was dealing

12     with at the time, could you and will you agree with me that it inevitably

13     follows from all of that that the ministry acted in keeping with the

14     operative plan and the instructions and orders of the government; isn't

15     it so?

16        A.   I have to admit that for the most part, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I mean, that conflict between Mr. Stanisic and

18     Prime Minister Djeric, did not influence to that extent the conduct and

19     activities of the ministry as part of that government, the Ministry of

20     the Interior as part of that government, in fulfilling the duties and

21     obligations that the Ministry of the Interior has under the act on

22     Internal Affairs?

23        A.   Well, the reaction of Stanisic towards Djeric could not have

24     influenced the relations between Stanisic and other parts of the

25     Ministry of the Interior.  I'm not sure whether it had an influence in

Page 4224

 1     terms of his relationships towards and with the organs and in the

 2     collegium meetings, whatever you call it.

 3        Q.   Collegiums.

 4        A.   Yes, in connection with his centres for security service, I don't

 5     think that Djeric tried to do anything against him or to interfere and I

 6     have no knowledge that anything happened in that vein as a consequence of

 7     them not being on friendly terms.

 8        Q.   Having regard to the fact that all those normative acts were

 9     prepared by the Ministry of the Interior in 1992, some of which are

10     undoubtedly key for the functioning of that ministry, it could be

11     concluded that the ministry, to a great extent, fulfilled what would be

12     expected of it at that stage of the ministry's being setting up?

13        A.   Yes, I agree with your assessment.  I cannot pin-point a

14     percentage, maybe 90 per cent, but the -- it was obvious that the present

15     infrastructure functioned much better than in other walks of life.

16        Q.   When you say it functioned better than in other segments of the

17     society, do you mean by that some of the ministries?

18        A.   Yes, of course.  The setting up of the army and the setting up of

19     all organs and authorities, from municipal authorities to ministries.

20        Q.   I believe that at the end of your examination-in-chief,

21     Mr. Hannis showed you this document, P400.  It's an exhibit and it is a

22     transcript of the Assembly of the Serbian people, dated 23rd and

23     24th November, 1992.  On page 55 of that document --

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we can have it on the screen,

25     please.

Page 4225

 1        Q.   I have a hard copy for you.  I believe that it would be easier

 2     for you to follow that.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like you to show me page 55 in

 4     both the Serbian and the English version.

 5        Q.   Minister Subotic speaks and at that Assembly he took part in

 6     debate, and he said that he will take responsibility for failing to set

 7     up the Ministry of Defence by that point, that he'd managed to find only

 8     six people for -- do you recall his intervention?

 9        A.   Well, I do not, but I did discuss matters with Minister Subotic

10     and I was aware that the situation in that ministry was substandard or

11     inappropriate, that only a handful of people worked there.

12        Q.   So you are, in fact, aware of the situation at that ministry that

13     Mr. Subotic explained and described at this Assembly?

14        A.   Yes.  The army as an armed force had its command and control, and

15     set up structures, and the Ministry of Defence was lame, as it were.

16        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Trbojevic, while we are discussing this document,

17     a digression, you recall that you took the floor at that Assembly; do you

18     recall that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Your speech is at page 45.  You have pagination marks in the top

21     right-hand corner.  I'm interested in --

22        A.   I do not have page 45.

23        Q.   The transcript number.  Midway through the document, page 45.

24     There are two days covered by this document, day one, day two.  Towards

25     the bottom of page 45, the last paragraph, you say, you address the

Page 4226

 1     Assembly, you say:

 2             "You've all, I believe, heard that Vitomir Zepinic became an

 3     officer of military security.  I will wonder, and I'm still wondering

 4     why."

 5             Please tell me, your learning that Mr. Vitomir Zepinic becoming

 6     an officer in the military security, can you recall that and can you tell

 7     us more about it?

 8        A.   Well, in my speech I continue, it reads, the minister of defence,

 9     our minister of the interior informed us, I heard that that person was

10     arrested.  And from the Ministry of Defence I heard that the

11     General Staff of our army, in there nobody knows why he was employed.  I

12     have no prejudice but I -- it is intolerable that the minister of defence

13     doesn't know who is employed by his ministry.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's take a look at page 47 in

15     English.  I apologise for being late with this reference, that would be

16     page 47 in English.  That would be second paragraph, it states "Zapinic"

17     in English but it's supposed to be "Zepinic."

18        Q.   Let's clarify a couple of things here.  So you learned that

19     Mr. Zepinic was arrested, and if I understood you correctly, after being

20     arrested, he suddenly shows up in the Army of Republika Srpska as a

21     military security officer; is that correct?

22        A.   That's correct.  Zepinic, I believe, was assistant minister or

23     deputy minister of the interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as

24     a Serbian cadre.  When we went our separate ways, Zepinic remained in

25     Sarajevo and he was arrested when he emerged from Sarajevo.  He was

Page 4227

 1     interrogated.  We heard his answers on TV.  He was suspect collaborator

 2     with the Muslims.

 3             After a while, he showed up in the Ministry of Defence and the

 4     Ministry of Defence did not know that he had been employed within that

 5     ministry.  And it was absurd, in my opinion, that the minister of defence

 6     didn't know and he said, Well, maybe he was working for us the whole

 7     time.  But the minister was supposed to know about those things so as not

 8     to breed doubt and suspicion.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us how long he worked at the Ministry of Defence as

10     a military security officer?

11        A.   Well, I don't know.  He was dismissed; this was in November.

12        Q.   Can you recall whether in November he still was -- it seems that

13     you speak in the present tense, that you at that time were still employed

14     there?

15        A.   I don't know.  He showed up later on in Australia or Canada, but

16     don't take my word for it.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.

18        A.   He is very far away, at any rate.

19        Q.   Let's revisit briefly the conflict between Mr. Djeric and

20     Mr. Stanisic.  From June 1992 they were [as interpreted] in the

21     Presidency?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   And from the government minutes, it is obvious that Mr. Djeric

24     briefed the government on the security situation and on certain specific

25     facts on the basis of the reports that he learned at the session of the

Page 4228

 1     extended Presidency of which he was a member; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] On page 28, line 25, there is an

 4     intervention in the transcript.  From June 1992, Mr. Djeric was member of

 5     the extended Presidency.  The transcript it just states:  "... they were

 6     in the Presidency."  So that line in the transcript is incorrect.

 7        Q.   Mr. Trbojevic, do you know that Mr. Djeric sought that the

 8     government be reconstructed first, as he stated, as early as May 1992,

 9     then in August; and for reference that will be 65 ter document 1325.

10     Later on, in Bijeljina in September; and for reference purposes, that

11     would be 65 ter document 1506.

12             So on at least two, and probably three occasions, Mr. Djeric

13     sought that the government be reconstructed; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I'm not sure about May, but from the very

15     beginning of my participation in that government, attitude on the

16     reconstruction of the government became manifest.  He wanted to increase

17     the number of ministers and he wanted to get rid of Stanisic and somebody

18     else, and some other people.  There were numerous discussions about that.

19     And he got a consensus from Mr. Koljevic and Madam Plavsic, but he could

20     not obtain one from Karadzic and Krajisnik, so there were numerous

21     discussions.

22             Then he offered for Stanisic to remain in government as a

23     minister without portfolio.  There was different variant, and at the

24     Assembly in Banja Luka, although he had not received Krajisnik's and

25     Karadzic's consent, he proposed -- put forth a proposal to reconstruct

Page 4229

 1     the government.  It was voted upon but it did not pass.  And formally and

 2     legally, I thought that the whole government would fall.  He did not put

 3     forward amendments to the cabinet, but a new proposal for the whole

 4     government, it was not voted in, and I thought that it had fallen, that

 5     government.  But these are legal and formal things were not observed.

 6        Q.   I think at one point yesterday and the day before yesterday, you

 7     said that, in your view, Professor Djeric wasn't really the most suitable

 8     person to be prime minister at that point in time?

 9        A.   Well, yes, he wasn't the most suitable person.  He was not a man

10     who was used to an organised and systematic mode of work.  He would have

11     had to be a very capable and crafty person.  I don't want to be

12     serious -- well, I don't want to make jokes here, but he was sort of not

13     weasely enough.  He was a university professor, so that he didn't really

14     have the strength and the energy to resolve issues in a controversial

15     dialogue or contradictory dialogue.  It was not possible to actually

16     conclude a conversation with him.  Whenever it would come to the crux of

17     the matter, he would just wave his hand and say, Well, you know, forget

18     about that.

19             So in that sense.  I believe he was a very honourable man who had

20     the best of intentions, but ...

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Trbojevic.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I would suggest that we take the break now because

23     I would like to reconsider my notes and see if I have any other

24     questions, but I would need the break for that, and I think this is --

25     this would be an appropriate moment.  Thank you very much.

Page 4230

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  We'll resume in 20 minutes.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  I just wish to impart a bit of information to those

 6     of you who may not be aware of it, but I understand that efforts have

 7     been made to regulate the temperature, which we are all complaining about

 8     how close it has become in here.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I made a promise and I'm going to

10     stick to the promise, so I don't have any further questions for this

11     witness.  Thank you very much.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  Sorry, Your Honours, due to the previous problems

13     with the neck and spine of my client, I was asking security officer if we

14     could just change a chair for our client and he said I should address the

15     Chamber and with your permission they can arrange that, just instead of

16     this one to have one of these spare chairs for him, if it's possible.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Of course.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. Trbojevic, thank you very

21     much.  I have no further questions for you.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  We don't have questions for this witness,

23     Your Honour.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I do have some questions

25     on redirect.

Page 4231

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

 2        Q.   Mr. Trbojevic.  I wanted to begin by asking you something that

 3     came up very near the end of your testimony today.  At page 24,

 4     line 24 -- I'm sorry, line 14, you were being asked about the

 5     Yellow Wasps, and in your answer you said:

 6             "Yes, I do recall the existence of that group, some meetings with

 7     it and when it was crushed, and those meetings were them were less than

 8     savoury.  Whenever I encountered them, these were not savoury occasions."

 9             Do I take it you personally had some contacts or meetings with

10     Yellow Wasps, and if so, could you tell the Court about that?

11        A.   I did have a few contacts with them.  On my way to Serbia, I was

12     in the car, there was a check-point that they held and I would have to go

13     through this check-point.  This was in the direction of Sekovic-Karakaj

14     communication.  You couldn't get through there because there were armed

15     men standing.  They would stop your car and check your papers.  And at

16     the time we didn't have appropriate papers.  We just had documents, on

17     paper, showing that this vehicle had this VIN number and so on.  We would

18     also have a government letter and a travel voucher.  And then they would

19     check the papers, they would look at the car, search it, take away things

20     if they thought they should, and so on.  So sometimes they would even

21     take your vehicle, or if there was a weapon, they would take that weapon

22     away.  And it wasn't very pleasant.

23             And I heard that there were serious problems with them as well.

24     Among other things, Velibor Ostojic, the minister, was beaten up by one

25     of them on one such occasion.  He raised his voice and asked them, Do you

Page 4232

 1     know who I am, I'm a minister, and then they just beat him up.  And I

 2     know that there was an operation conducted by the police, a raid.  They

 3     were arrested and I remember that Mr. Stanisic reported on that.  He said

 4     that that thing had happened, had been conducted, and that's it.  That's

 5     what I was referring to.

 6        Q.   Do you recall approximately how many times you dealt with them at

 7     the check-point?

 8        A.   About two to three times.  I can't remember exactly.

 9        Q.   And I take it all those times were before the 29th of July, 1992,

10     when they were arrested.  Do you recall approximately when those two or

11     three times were; the earliest time, for example?

12        A.   This would have had to have been before they were arrested.  It

13     had to be before.

14        Q.   Can you recall what month?  May, June, July?

15        A.   It must have been June.  My mother was still alive then, she was

16     in Serbia, so I went on a couple of occasions to visit her.  My younger

17     son was also staying with her, so I went on these family -- for family

18     reasons there.

19        Q.   At the time of these stops at this check-point, I take it you did

20     not know then that these were Yellow Wasps.  That's something you only

21     learned about later, that they were Yellow Wasps; is that right?

22        A.   I didn't know the first time they stopped me, I didn't know what

23     they were called, but when I recounted this incident, when I told other

24     people about this, then somebody said, Yeah, there is a group, they call

25     themselves Yellow Wasps.  And there was also this man, this Zuti and

Page 4233

 1     Repic, or ponytail, who I know that I saw some reports in the papers

 2     about him.

 3        Q.   At the time you were stopped at this check-point, who did you

 4     understand these men to be?

 5             MR. HANNIS:  I see Mr. Zecevic.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I didn't want to intervene until this

 7     point but I didn't think this comes out of the cross-examination that I

 8     did with this witness.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  It comes out of the witness's answer to a question

10     on cross-examination.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, that is why I didn't object until this point,

12     but I believe you are going in deep into something which was not -- what

13     was not the object of my cross-examination.  That is why I object.  Thank

14     you.

15             JUDGE HALL:  It seems, Mr. Hannis, that as Mr. Zecevic has said,

16     that when you started out, you were clearly within the ambit of his

17     cross-examination, but your -- the details that you are now inviting the

18     witness to speak on, you are opening up new territory.

19             MR. HANNIS:  All right, Your Honour.  I accept your ruling.  I

20     would just like to indicate for the future, that it's my position that

21     counsel's expectation or objective in cross-examination should not

22     determine the parameters of what is allowed on redirect.  It should be

23     based on the evidence presented by the witness.

24             JUDGE HALL:  That is a new, isn't it, that's a new approach,

25     isn't it, Mr. Hannis?

Page 4234

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Not for me personally, Your Honour.  It's my

 2     understanding that if a witness says something on a cross-examination,

 3     that it may not be expected or the objective of the cross-examiner, that

 4     doesn't prevent the person on redirect exploring that.  This is the first

 5     I was aware that he'd had any dealings with the Yellow Wasp, and since he

 6     stated it --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  What the concern would be, though, is that, in the

 8     interest of time, we wouldn't wish you to go into an area which would of

 9     necessity require for the cross-examination on the new material.  So if

10     you could confine yourself to strictly what has arisen out of

11     cross-examination, otherwise there'd be no end of it.

12             MR. HANNIS:  All right, Your Honour.  I'll move to something

13     else.

14        Q.   Witness, I want to take you to your testimony yesterday at

15     page 4156, beginning at line 20, Mr. Zecevic was asking you about the

16     Cutileiro plan.  I just want to clarify:  You weren't a participant in

17     the negotiations on behalf of the Serbs; right?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Would it be fair to say that your knowledge and information about

20     the Cutileiro plan and any details concerning came from local media

21     accounts and/or any general discussions and comments in and around the

22     Assembly?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   Thank you.  At page 4164, line 20, Mr. Zecevic asked you about

25     the conditions on Mount Jahorina, and he said in his question, there was

Page 4235

 1     no heating, no electric power, that the snow made things even worse

 2     because the roads weren't passable, you didn't have any means of

 3     communication, et cetera.  And your answer was:

 4             "That's correct.  We literally did not even have typewriters, no

 5     telefaxes, nothing."

 6             One of my questions is:  You've seen the government sessions, the

 7     minutes from some 60 session, 61 sessions, all except for one perhaps

 8     appear to be typewritten, so there must have been a typewriter at least

 9     for the person who was typing up the minutes; correct?

10        A.   Well, there were more than one, but the government did not have

11     equipment of its own.  These machines, these typewriters, were collected,

12     taken from various companies, and at the end, we ended up with some of

13     those assets so we could use them in work.  It snowed in November

14     already, there was a lot of snow, that's regarding the roads.

15        Q.   But in May, June, July, and August, there wasn't a problem with

16     snow on Mount Jahorina, was there?

17        A.   No, no.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   There was a problem with electric power, but not with the snow.

20        Q.   Thank you.  At page 4174, line 19, Mr. Zecevic was asking you

21     about the Crisis Staffs, and suggesting at the time the war commissions

22     were being proposed, the Crisis Staffs hadn't even functioned for a month

23     when the government concluded that measures should be taken for their

24     abolishment.

25             Are you aware that some of the Crisis Staffs, Serb Crisis Staffs,

Page 4236

 1     or SDS Crisis Staffs had been in existence since even before the conflict

 2     started, as early as January 1992?  Did you know that?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   Were you aware of the document that's been referred to as a

 5     Variant A and B document circulated by the SDS Main Board on the

 6     21st of December, 1991?

 7        A.   I saw that document as a Defence counsel here in The Hague in the

 8     Brdjanin case, when I came here for the first time.

 9        Q.   That's right.  I forgot for a moment that you worked on that

10     case.

11             At page 4178, line 12, you were asked -- talking about the

12     Crisis Staff, these organs that were being formed in these extraordinary

13     circumstances suddenly became practically very powerful centres of power.

14     And you agreed, and said:

15             "These staffs took upon themselves the power, for example, to

16     command military units, like a local brigade, the local police." And in

17     the end you pointed out:

18             "Some places it functioned harmoniously.  It varied from area to

19     area."

20             My question was:  In Pale, where the government was situated,

21     where Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik were most of the time, isn't it true

22     that there was a local Crisis Staff in Pale?

23        A.   First of all, I have to say that if you interpreted verbatim the

24     transcript as my words in my answer to counsel Zecevic's question, I did

25     not say that the Crisis Staff commanded either the military or the

Page 4237

 1     police.  My reference to that was in the context of the Crisis Staff

 2     trying to have as their members people who were from their own

 3     environment including people from the police station, and this is the way

 4     that they actually exerted influence over the police or the military

 5     elements.  But I didn't know any such occasions where the Crisis Staff

 6     would actually be in command of such a military unit.

 7             As for Pale, yes, there was a Crisis Staff on Pale, and I had

 8     occasion once or twice to see members of the Crisis Staff coming to speak

 9     with Mr. Krajisnik, who was the speaker of parliament, the president of

10     the Assembly, to speak with him.  And the second time, they came to meet

11     with members of the government.  So that's all I know, that members of

12     the Crisis Staff came to visit members of the government and

13     Mr. Krajisnik.  I had occasion to see that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  The first part of that answer you raised a question

15     about the interpretation of your answer yesterday.  I'll read you out

16     what is in the transcript and ask you if you can confirm for me whether

17     it's accurate or not.  This is well, yesterday.  I'm sorry, I don't have

18     the updated page number.  Yesterday it was page 65 -- I am sorry,

19     page 69, which I believe is near the bottom of page 4178:

20             "These staffs took upon themselves the power to, for example,

21     command a military unit that was like a local brigade or a local unit.

22     The local police, which was not local by its structure and its main

23     system because hierarchically it was connected to the state.  But

24     practically, there were these people in the police station living in that

25     particular area and they were subject to the authority of local power

Page 4238

 1     brokers.  And this is now another question as to how this authority was

 2     imposed."

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What is the question?

 4             MR. HANNIS:

 5        Q.   My question was:  Is that an accurate translation of what you

 6     said yesterday?

 7        A.   Well, it's a bit clumsy, but as I said a little earlier, I

 8     explained what I meant actually yesterday when I said that.  I didn't

 9     mention yesterday another thing and maybe now I can repeat it.  There's

10     one of the municipal functions is to keep records and to issue call-up

11     papers to conscripts.  These are functions that really fall within the

12     remit of the Ministry of Defence.  However, the clerk who actually

13     processes these is on the premises of the municipality, and this is

14     referred to as municipal work, but they would -- when they would send

15     these call-up papers and ask conscripts to report to the military or the

16     police, they are not actually exercising municipal power.  So this is in

17     response to when there is someone in the Crisis Staff who would actually

18     command or have some sort of command function in that respect.

19             So I'm not excluding the possibility that maybe in some

20     municipalities, the president of the Crisis Staff in co-operation or

21     agreement with a commander of a unit would agree something that would go

22     beyond these agreed frameworks and these envisaged frameworks, but

23     normally that's not how it should function.

24        Q.   Do you know whether or not the local police chief of an SJB in a

25     municipality with a Crisis Staff was taking directions from the

Page 4239

 1     Crisis Staff contrary to any direction he might be receiving through his

 2     chain of command within the MUP?  Do you know?

 3        A.   I don't know of any cases where a local police commander or the

 4     chief of police actually operated contrary to orders that he would

 5     receive from the CSB or the ministry.  I don't know of any such cases.

 6     As a matter of principle, he was not allowed to act in that manner.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  With regard to the municipal Crisis Staffs, do you

 8     know what their composition was in terms of membership in a political

 9     party?  Weren't most of the members of the Serb Crisis Staffs in April,

10     May, June 1992, members of the SDS?

11        A.   Well, generally speaking, probably they were, but I do know of

12     individual instances where there were people who were brigade commanders,

13     were chiefs of police, but were not members of the SDS.  There were such

14     cases.  I do have some information about some individuals like that.

15     But, in fact, this actually grew out of the Serb deputies who actually --

16     of whom most were, in fact, members of the SDS.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Next I'd like to look at Exhibit P188.  This is a

18     document that Mr. Zecevic showed you yesterday, and ask you some

19     questions beginning at page 4186, line 7.  I don't have a hard copy so

20     hopefully we can do it on the e-court.

21             It's a document which is apparently an instruction issued from

22     the prime minister.  I think it's signed by you and sent to the MUP.  Do

23     you recall seeing this one yesterday?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Mr. Hannis, if you need the hard copy we can

Page 4240

 1     provide it.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  I think it's one page and if he needs it I'll ask.

 3     Thank you.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  You are welcome.

 5             MR. HANNIS:

 6        Q.   My question is:  The subject matter of this is requesting

 7     information about facts relating to vehicles from the TAS car factory in

 8     Vogosca and oil in Ilidza.  Now, these two topics, cars from TAS and oil,

 9     those appear to be the only two matters that were ever the subject of

10     private sessions in the government.  Do you recall any other private

11     sessions where any other subject was discussed?

12        A.   There were a host of details that were discussed, but as for TAS

13     vehicles, they were in the thousands so this was something that was a

14     glaring issue, you could see it before you, and -- but the number of

15     vehicles would just decrease and there were fewer and fewer of them, so

16     this was a recurrent problem that was one of the most topical issues

17     discussed.

18        Q.   I'm not sure you understood my question.  There were only -- as

19     far as we've seen, there were only two closed sessions or private

20     sessions of the government.  In one of those, the vehicles from TAS was

21     discussed, and at another one, the issue about oil was discussed.  My

22     question was:  Were there any other private sessions where something was

23     discussed other than these two subjects, if you know, or if you remember?

24        A.   To be honest, I don't remember even these two closed sessions,

25     private sessions.  Whether there were any others with that indication

Page 4241

 1     that they are private, I don't know.  It's possible, but I don't know

 2     any.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And one of the reasons that those sessions would have

 4     been private, is it because there was some suspicion that high-level

 5     officials were involved with those two subject matters, the missing cars

 6     from TAS and oil in Ilidza?

 7        A.   You see, just a regular Joe, an insignificant person, cannot

 8     commit this kind of theft, nor can 3.000 vehicles disappear from a

 9     parking-lot without someone who was in power actually being involved, so

10     this could not have been performed or done by just petty criminals.

11        Q.   I think you told us yesterday that you signed this one; is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you recall why you signed it instead of Djeric?  Was he just

15     not around or was there some other reason?

16        A.   Well, probably he had stepped out or gone somewhere at that point

17     in time, so he asked me to sign it.  Or maybe he just wanted to have it

18     sent out and he was absent.  There was no special reason for me signing

19     it.

20        Q.   Okay.  Do you know why it was addressed to Ceda Kljajic

21     personally, instead of going to Minister Stanisic?

22        A.   I don't know that.  Somebody probably must have told me to do so,

23     or maybe that's how it was written down.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. HANNIS:  If we could next look at 1D94.  I think it's an MFI

Page 4242

 1     document at this stage.

 2        Q.   At page 4191, line 25, Mr. Zecevic showed you this document and

 3     asked you about it.  I think it's dated the 23rd of August, 1992.  And it

 4     was sent out by the minister of the interior.  I think we were unclear as

 5     to whose signature it was.  But can you, from looking at the heading, can

 6     you tell me what is the nature of this document?  Yesterday, Mr. Zecevic

 7     talked with you about various kinds of documents in administrative

 8     bodies, rules of procedure, instructions, decisions, orders.  Can you

 9     tell, based on what you see on the screen, what kind of administrative

10     document this was?

11        A.   Well, as far as I understood it, it was a letter.  A

12     communication.

13        Q.   Did it --

14        A.   A letter requesting information and pointing out that the

15     government had concluded that it was high time to reply.  This is not an

16     official document.  It's not categorised as an enactment.  It's just a

17     letter, a request.

18        Q.   Do you know what effect a request like that would have, from the

19     minister to subordinate unit, in terms of any obligation to respond?

20        A.   A reply to this could have been, Please find attached herewith a

21     criminal report against, and then a list.  The perpetrators of a criminal

22     offence, when, where, what was the statement when questioned, then some

23     supporting documents.  It could have been a dossier, or maybe it

24     alternatively could have been a list.  We've sent this to that district

25     prosecutor and then a list, the date and what kind of documents were sent

Page 4243

 1     where.

 2        Q.   And would there be any consequences to the CSB or individuals in

 3     the CSB who failed to respond to this request for information?

 4        A.   Well, listen, this is an every-day activity, performance of

 5     every-day duties.  If you fail to reply to a request for information

 6     coming from the ministry, of course that would be failing fulfill your

 7     duties.  So whether that would be tantamount to grounds for disciplinary

 8     proceedings, well, that would be up to the immediate manager or

 9     responsible person to decide pursuant to the disciplinary regulations of

10     the time.

11        Q.   I'd like to next look at --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. HANNIS:  I'd like to look next at Exhibit 1D96.

14        Q.   This is one that you were shown today by Mr. Zecevic.  Page 5,

15     line 14.  This is a document that appears to be a draft of-- that the

16     government operative programme for measures to prevent social disruptions

17     in the conditions of a state of war which was attached to a cover letter

18     from the government secretary, Mr. Lakic.  And I want to specifically ask

19     you about an item that I think Mr. Zecevic didn't bring to your

20     attention.  It's item 26, which is found at page 14 of the English.

21             MR. HANNIS:  And in e-court I think the B/C/S is at page 11.

22        Q.   Hopefully you'll be able to follow this on the screen,

23     Mr. Trbojevic.  I just have one or two questions.  Item 26 is translated

24     for me as:  "Agreement on exchange of prisoners of war, detainees, the

25     wounded and the bodies of persons killed between the SR BiH" --

Page 4244

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may be of assistance.  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  And I think in the hard copy it's

 3     probably page 9.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's correct, page 9.

 5        Q.   It's item 26.

 6        A.   I found it.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And at the end of the article it said:

 8             "This agreement, together with other documents that have already

 9     been adopted, shall serve as a basis for the work of the state commission

10     for the exchange of POWs and detainees."

11             I infer from that that detainees are something different and

12     distinctive from prisoners of war, would you agree?

13        A.   Yes, of course I would agree with you.  I see that it is reliant

14     upon an agreement signed by the president of the SR BiH,and is expected

15     to be signed by our side.  I know that there were discussions of the

16     International Community of the Red Cross at Geneva, that there were some

17     agreements ensuing from those discussions, and that there were agreements

18     subsequent to this regulating the issue of exchange of the bodies of

19     those killed, detained, prisoners of war, evacuations, that sort of

20     thing.

21        Q.   Well, I think based on what you've said earlier in your

22     testimony, it would be fair to interpret these detainees as being not

23     fighters, not combatants, but civilians?

24        A.   That will be the logic of it, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  At page 21, line 21, today, you were asked about

Page 4245

 1     whether you recall the MUP submitting on a number of occasions

 2     information on the current security situation.  You said yes.  You

 3     couldn't really confirm specifically because you couldn't say which of

 4     those reports you saw, but you do know that there were reports.

 5             My understanding from your prior testimony in Krajisnik and your

 6     testimony here that in spite of that, you and Djeric still felt that you

 7     weren't being fully, adequately informed by the Ministry of the Interior

 8     by the situation on the ground; is that right?

 9        A.   That's correct.  I mean, this is being made referenced to on many

10     occasions.  The gist of it was that the status of that so-called

11     government was such that it was supposed to perform the -- a utility

12     service which was supposed to make sure that things functioned in terms

13     of the economy and everything else, but on the other hand, that some

14     crucial and matters of public interest were not supposed to be on the

15     agenda of the government.  Well, to what extent we, members of the

16     government, were to blame for failing to comprehend that and to what

17     extent the Presidency conducted both internal and foreign affairs and

18     limited the influence of that government, that's quite relative.

19             It was our feeling, I can tell you, that we were constantly being

20     marginalised or in a position which lacked importance to anybody.  And

21     there was a lot of things -- there were a lot of things going on around

22     us and that many problems were obvious, well, that would be my feeling,

23     which was publicly expressed on many occasions.  I spoke about it in

24     public.  But this is how things went until the end.

25        Q.   And since that time in 1992 until today, have you learned

Page 4246

 1     anything, any information that would change your opinion about whether or

 2     not you were being marginalised and under-informed by the Ministry of the

 3     Interior?

 4        A.   I must admit that after several trials here I learned many things

 5     and it's completely clear that that government was at the margins of

 6     everything that was going on.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  At page 25, line 20, today, you were asked about your

 8     opinion or whether you would agree that the Ministry of the Interior, in

 9     1992, to a great extent fulfilled what would be expected of it at that

10     stage of being set up.  You said yes, you agreed, and maybe 90 per cent,

11     and that it functioned better than basically all the other ministries.

12             That would suggest to me that the MUP had good communications,

13     because wouldn't that be an essential requirement to start up an organ

14     like the Ministry of the Interior?

15        A.   I explained that on two occasions partly.  The infrastructure and

16     the connectedness between police station, Security Services Centres, with

17     the republican headquarters within the ministry of the police was,

18     according to my impression, as far as I could divine, it worked and

19     functioned better or more intensively than in other segments of social

20     life.  Therefore, the police were set up, minister appointed people to

21     positions, analysed at collegium meetings what was working, what was not.

22     There were dismissals, and simply, the impression was that that organ was

23     functioning much better at a higher level than everybody else of us.

24             So what they were short of, well, that's something that I cannot

25     assess or enumerate from my position, but it is -- certainly there were

Page 4247

 1     some problems.  That is what I meant.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Mr. Trbojevic, I don't have any further

 3     questions for the witness.  I do have one procedural matter.  That was a

 4     exhibit previously marked P165 and it was marked for identification but

 5     it's part of this witness's 65 ter, so I'd ask that its status change.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I understand it's already been admitted, Mr. Hannis.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Pardon me, Your Honour.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour.

10             JUDGE HALL:  I understand it's already been admitted as an

11     exhibit.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I said 65 ter, I meant 92 ter.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Counsel, please.

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Trbojevic, there is a matter that I would

16     like to clarify with you in relation to the knowledge that people in your

17     government had about detention of civilians because you told us yesterday

18     that, in fact, you had no knowledge about detention of civilians, at

19     least over the summer of 1992, and if I recall correctly, you told us

20     that it wasn't until the early fall of 1992 that you were first told

21     about detention facilities and collection points and other kinds of

22     detention of civilians; but when you heard of it, you were told that it

23     was all for the good of the detainees, because it was to protect them

24     against extremists.  Have I understood you correctly on this?

25        A.   This is how I put it.  This is how it was, to the best of my

Page 4248

 1     knowledge.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  Now, by the time you were appointed as

 3     deputy prime minister, that was in May 1992, if I recall correctly, did

 4     you understand there to be a state of armed conflicts in Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina?

 6        A.   I experienced in Sarajevo that shells were falling around the

 7     city, that one could be apprehended out in the street.  I was arrested.

 8     I experienced a state of war, a war situation to the full, except that

 9     that I wasn't hit by any missile.  So I knew that it was a war situation.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We are lucky that you were not hit.  But who was

11     perceived to be the enemy?  Or let me put my question in another way.  If

12     there was an armed conflict as you understood it to be, then who were the

13     parties fighting against each other?  As far as you could tell, could

14     determine at the time.

15        A.   You see, that war situation gradually spread like fire.  Here I

16     am sitting in Sarajevo and watching TV and seeing on TV that at the level

17     of the republic, there were agreements being made about mixed patrols.

18     Then I see on TV those trams burning in front of the Skenderija hall,

19     where soldiers who were -- JNA soldiers who were leaving Sarajevo got

20     killed.  Then step by step you are drawn into a situation, you keep

21     thinking that the very next agreement will resolve the situation, and

22     while you wait for the next agreement, you find yourself that you cannot

23     bear to stay there, that the situation is real and present.

24             Then you hear about Serbian authorities going to Pale to find

25     shelter there.  Then you yourself go to Pale and you find out that there

Page 4249

 1     is war reigning at many places in the country.  Who were the parties to

 2     the conflict?  Well, the Serbs who wanted to remain in the same community

 3     with Serbia, and the Muslims, on the other hand, who wanted for

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina to be separated.  As far as the Croats and when they

 5     became a party to the conflict against either of the other two sides,

 6     well, I cannot gauge that.  For a time they co-operated with the Serb

 7     side, then sometimes they fought the Muslims and then co-operated with

 8     the Muslims to fight the Serbs.  That was a complicated matter.

 9             And as a civilian, you do not have any kind of inkling what is

10     going on at the front line.  You do not know anything about the military

11     situation and then the military personnel would brief you on that

12     military situation as per requirements.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But am I right in understanding your testimony to

14     be that it was generally perceived that the armed conflict was going on

15     between the Serbs who wanted to preserve the former Yugoslavia, and the

16     Muslims who wanted to have the Bosnia and Herzegovina become an

17     independent and thus separate from Yugoslavia?  This was what the war was

18     all about and the enemies were the Serbs against the Muslims and perhaps

19     the Croats?  Is that how you saw it at the time?

20        A.   That's correct.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now, I understand that you are unable to tell us

22     exactly when you first heard about detention of civilians; but what I

23     don't understand is that when you heard of detention of a great number of

24     civilians who were predominantly Muslim and Croats, and at the same time

25     you knew that there was an armed conflict between Serbs and Muslims, and

Page 4250

 1     let's include the Croats for the sake of completion, then I would find it

 2     hard to believe that detention of civilians belonging to the enemy would

 3     be made for reasons their own protection against their own kin.

 4             And, therefore, my question to you is really this:  Did you have

 5     an impression that in your government people were turning the blind eye

 6     to this information that in those detention facilities where Muslims were

 7     held, mistreatment could possibly have taken place?

 8             I'm not, Mr. Trbojevic, I'm not in any way implying that you did

 9     so, but my question is:  Did it ever occur to you that there might be

10     someone in the government who had an interest in not bringing to light

11     what was going on in the camps?

12        A.   You see, today when I think about that it seems to me impossible

13     for that not to be known.  When I go back in my mind to that time in

14     1992, I know that as a normal person, it was inconceivable for me to --

15     for somebody to open a camp for civilians because they were of different

16     ethnic background.  And it was so among many people because the Serbs, in

17     their history, they've experienced such camps as victims during

18     World War II.  Maybe under the influence of that, yes, but as a normal

19     person I could not even think that somebody would deprive somebody of

20     their liberty and put them into a camp just because they come from

21     different ethnic background.

22             This is the situation -- information that I got in Banja Luka,

23     that Trnopolje was a collection centre, that the civilians [Realtime

24     transcript read in error "Serbians"] may be put there to be protected

25     from extremists on both sides, to spend some time there protected before

Page 4251

 1     they can return home, and to be protected from the Muslim side, well, it

 2     seemed logical.  There was some logic to it for a time.  But when on TV

 3     you first saw the footage from Trnopolje and from Manjaca, where you see

 4     a huge number of people kept there, then it became clear that we didn't

 5     know what was going on there.

 6             On the other hand, we know that the ICRC conducted talks at the

 7     republican or state level or the leadership level, trying to get an

 8     agreement for the ICRC to gain access to those camps, to list those

 9     persons, to check the living conditions there.  So it was inconceivable.

10     We had no idea that such things happened as I learned subsequently from

11     many witnesses.  I don't know, I can't [Realtime transcript read in error

12     "can"] say that there was a person who tried to hide everything from

13     public view.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And were --

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, Your Honour.  Maybe I'll be of

16     assistance.  I believe the witness says I can't say that there was a

17     person who tried to hide everything from public view.  51, 20, it says

18     "the Serbians," which is clearly not.  I think he said "the civilians."

19     Page 51, line 20, it say that is the Serbians may be put there to.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, thank you.  Mr. Pantelic.

21             MR. PANTELIC:  And also page 51, line 23, it is Muslim side or

22     some other side?  I don't know, it's not make sense to me.  Maybe our

23     friend can clarify this.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Trbojevic, I don't know if you read English,

25     but can you see on the screen at page 51, line 23?  And are you able to

Page 4252

 1     understand what it says?

 2        A.   I cannot see page 51.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Usher, would you please assist the witness.

 4        A.   I cannot translate it back literally.  I see that an agreement is

 5     being made reference to.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.

 7        A.   The interpreter can translate for me that line in the transcript.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If the interpreters would be good enough to do

 9     so.  Thank you very much.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot see LiveNote.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think, Mr. Trbojevic, let's cut through this, I

12     think the issue was whether or not you were being told that detained

13     Muslim civilians were there for the protection against their own

14     extremists, people from their own side; is that correct?  Is that what

15     you had heard?

16        A.   That is how I put it.  Extremists both from their own side and

17     from the Serb side.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  Well, that adds an extra dimension.

19             Moving on to my last question, you were shown today, during

20     cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic, a couple of documents that suggested

21     that Mr. Stanisic had issued orders to the CSBs and the SJBs to report on

22     all events taking place within their area of jurisdiction.  And in

23     particular to collect information and documentation about war crimes.

24             And my question to you is:  Do you know if those reports actually

25     came?  Were such reports provided on a daily basis or at least on a

Page 4253

 1     regular basis to the Ministry of Interior from the CSBs and the SJBs?

 2        A.   I don't know how public security stations and centres

 3     correspond -- what was the correspondence with the ministries or the

 4     number of such reports, the level of their processing, at which intervals

 5     and by which dead-lines they were received.  What I can tell you is that

 6     at the government level, we did not receive such reports.  The government

 7     had no insight in such reports.

 8             I know that there was some co-operation with the war crimes

 9     institute based in Belgrade, and that that institute had collected some

10     documentation, and from the information that I received from a judge who

11     conducted those investigations, that documentation was forwarded to the

12     United Nations.  To whom and in what form, I don't know.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did Mr. Stanisic, when he was a minister of the

14     interior, did he bring up that issue during any of the government

15     meetings?

16        A.   I cannot specifically recall him saying something at a particular

17     government session or meeting.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So the government was never informed by the

19     minister of interior about the documentation of possible war crimes and

20     the way in which such possible documentation was handled?

21        A.   I think that my answer must be in the affirmative, meaning that I

22     did not see such a report.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And you don't recall Mr. Stanisic bringing it up

24     during any meeting?

25        A.   No, I don't recall.

Page 4254

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, Mr. Trbojevic.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Trbojevic, for coming to assist the

 3     Tribunal.  Your testimony is at an end and you are now released, and we

 4     wish you a safe journey back to your home.

 5             Usher, you may escort Mr. Trbojevic from the court.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, our next witness is one for whom there

10     are protective measures, voice and image distortion, so I think we need

11     to take a break.  Closed session, my mistake.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, it does look rather odd because I saw

13     the same thing, but it's closed session that Your Honours have granted so

14     I don't think there's any need for face, voice, or anything of that

15     nature.

16             Your Honours, I imagine it's probably simpler to take the break,

17     but I need, in any event, to make an application in relation to this

18     witness, because Your Honours may have seen that when we put the original

19     92 ter package together, which I only realised when I was going through

20     it for the purposes of calling the witness, we made what can only be

21     described as a shambles of the documents, I am afraid.  What has been put

22     in is the witness's testimony in a previous case with the associated

23     documents which are relevant and indeed many of which have already been

24     produced as exhibits.  But I hope Your Honours were given the revised,

25     properly worked-out list that was sent by Mr. Smith -- sorry

Page 4255

 1     Ms. Bosnjakovic, who was standing in for Mr. Smith the day before

 2     yesterday.  But I need to make an application obviously that it's the

 3     revised properly organised list that is the package.  So if there's no

 4     objection, can I ask --

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Is the Defence aware of this?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this is what I

 8     received in the binder, I have no objection to that.  If that is indeed

 9     that revised list.

10             MS. KORNER:  That doesn't help, I'm afraid.  We sent, at the same

11     time we sent to the Court, the revised, properly organised list.  I don't

12     know what Mr. Cvetic has got in his binder but if it's based on the list

13     that was sent two days ago, that's it.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I assume that our

15     Case Manager revised the documents pursuant to your list, because

16     yesterday night, I received revised documentation, and this is how I

17     conclude that what I have in the binder is what you are referring to.

18     But since our Case Manager is following this, I probably will receive

19     information confirming what you are saying.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I know that Mr. Cvijetic's Case

21     Manager is aware of it because she sent a couple of e-mails querying

22     documents.

23             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, and -- sorry.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  On this matter?

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Yeah, on this matter.

Page 4256

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Go ahead.

 2             MR. PANTELIC:  I was informed -- first of all, I do apologise, I

 3     didn't introduce our Case Manager, Mr. Jason Antley, when he came after

 4     first break, just for the record.  Actually, we locate one, two, three --

 5     three documents which is not in e-court of this practically last version,

 6     so just for clarification, that's our information.

 7             MS. KORNER:  I can assure Mr. Pantelic everything has been

 8     uploaded into e-court.  We had a couple of queries from Ms. Savic, who is

 9     Mr. Zecevic's Case Manager, and we've uploaded, we've made sure that

10     everything is in e-court.  And we indicated where there'd an error on

11     the --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, I had a quick glance to the calendar

13     for next week you sent yesterday, I think, and I noticed that you

14     announce two hours for Witness ST-158, Hanson, you announce two hours in

15     chief and six hours cross, and I have in my -- my information is that you

16     asked for one hour 30 minutes and that you cut down Defence time by two

17     hours there.  And then for Nielson, you asked for six hours and in your

18     calendar it's seven now.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I know -- I don't know about Ms. Hanson, I have

20     a feeling, and we maybe should notify, that the lawyer who is calling

21     her, Mr. Dobbin, after talking to her decided that two hours would be the

22     safer bet, but hopes to complete it in one hour and a half.  Mr. Hannis

23     is calling Dr. Nielson, and I think it's because of issues that have come

24     up through the case already.  Again out of safety's sake, he has put down

25     seven.  Again, I know he hopes not to take that long.

Page 4257

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And is it because of these additions that you cut

 2     down the time from for the Defence?

 3             MS. KORNER:  We didn't know we cut down to the time for the

 4     Defence.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Two hours.

 6             MS. KORNER:  We thought we'd -- we thought we'd looked -- two

 7     hours for?

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For Hanson.  I have for the Defence six hours for

 9     Defence 1, for Mr. Zecevic, and two hours for Mr. Pantelic.  Is that

10     right?  That adds up to eight and not to six.

11             MS. KORNER:  I am sorry, I really can't give an explanation for

12     that.  Maybe it was optimism rather than accuracy.  But I'm sorry about

13     that, but we'll revise those estimates accordingly.

14             We understand -- I intend to be an hour with today's witness in

15     chief and we understand that cross-examination is likely to be two and

16     two and a half, so something -- so he will go into Monday.

17             JUDGE HALL:  So we return in 20 minutes.

18             MS. KORNER:  Would Your Honours grant leave to amend our 92 ter

19     filing on this?

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

21             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, before we go into closed session, I've

25     checked with our time in motion expert, if I can put it that way, and she

Page 4258

 1     says that the timings that she gave were accurate from the information

 2     they were given by the Defence.  As far as Hanson was concerned, she

 3     didn't think we had been given any time by the Zupljanin Defence for

 4     cross-examination.  So that that is -- but the rest she said is accurate.

 5             Your Honours, may we go into closed session.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But then also, Ms. Korner, any news for Nielson?

 7     Because we were wondering why seven hours for an expert witness who comes

 8     basically to be crossed.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours, it's more than that.  It's a

10     very, very dense report, as you may have seen.  I know that Mr. Hannis

11     gave that estimate as his, as it were, fallback position, so that he can

12     draw Your Honours' attention to parts of the report and issues that have

13     come up during the course of the trial.  I don't think it's going to be

14     very helpful to Your Honours if Mr. Hannis simply puts Dr. Nielson into

15     the witness box and then says, And did you produce this report, and sits

16     down.  I think more than that has to be done.  Unless Your Honours are so

17     familiar with every single word and footnote in the report that you don't

18     need - can I put it this way? - any assistance.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You're trying to spare us, Ms. Korner.

20             MS. KORNER:  I wouldn't do that, never.  Not on a Friday.  That's

21     the situation, Your Honours.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could Mr. Hannis give us an alternative,

24     something more reasonable at first sight?

25             MS. KORNER:  We'll make -- I'm sure he is got his eye on his

Page 4259

 1     television because his television works, but mine doesn't, and we'll --

 2     Mr. Smith will get some information during the course of the next hour

 3     from him.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             MR. PANTELIC:  If it's not too late, our estimation is two hours

 6     for Hanson.  Thank you.  But we [indiscernible] later anyhow for the

 7     record, two hours for Zupljanin.

 8             MS. KORNER:  So Your Honours, if we can go into closed session.

 9                           [Closed session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4260











11 Pages 4260-4283 redacted. Closed session.















Page 4284

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of

10                           December, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.