Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6211

 1                           Friday, 5 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning.  May we have -- thank you,

 8     Madam Registrar.  May we have the appearances, please.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  May it please the Court, appearing for the

10     Prosecution today, Belinda Pidwell, Alexis Demirdjian, and

11     Crispian Smith.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

14     this morning.  Thank you.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin Defence

16     Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, Mr. Jason Antley, and Ms. Katarina

17     Danicic.

18             JUDGE HALL:  I'm assuming that everything is in place in Sarajevo

19     and we can continue with the witness.

20                           WITNESS:  ATIF DZAFIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           [Witness testified via videolink]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  Can you hear me?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.  You may resume your

Page 6212

 1     cross-examination.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dzafic.  Can you hear me,

 5     Mr. Dzafic?

 6        A.   Yes, sir, I can hear you well.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I will be putting a number of questions to you which

 8     are, if I may say so, of a general nature given that you have been a

 9     policeman for many years, I think since 1977.  Therefore, we thought that

10     your experience in that field would be of assistance to us here.

11             Mr. Dzafic, yesterday during examination-in-chief you spoke of

12     check-points which existed in Kljuc municipality in 1991.  Do you

13     remember that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   The reference is on page 63 and onwards of yesterday's

16     transcript.

17             Sir, isn't it true that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in 1991, on

18     all the main roads in all municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina there

19     were check-points set up?

20        A.   Yes, I do remember that.

21        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, do you remember that in the course of 1991 there was

22     an initiative in place called "Check-point 1991," or "Check-point 91"?

23        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't remember that initiative.

24        Q.   It was a joint initiative, a joint campaign of the Ministry of

25     the Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the JNA.

Page 6213

 1     They had mixed check-points manned by military units, units of the

 2     Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they were set up

 3     on certain roads.  They mostly dealt with confiscation of illegal weapons

 4     and so on.  Are you familiar with that?

 5        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't remember.

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Yesterday when one of the documents was

 7     shown to you, the duty roster or something like that, duty log, you

 8     commented on a colleague of yours, he was under number 17.  I don't want

 9     to show you the document now so as not to waste time, but there was an

10     indication, PUK, by his name, or PUV.  Then you explained that that stood

11     for "Check-Point Velagic."

12        A.   Yes, I remember that.

13        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, yesterday you explained that at those check-points,

14     and I think that if I'm not mistaken there were four or five in the

15     territory of Kljuc municipality, the police had a discretion to take some

16     activities or not take them, the policemen who worked at that -- those

17     check-points.  Did I understand you well?

18        A.   That discretionary right pertained to persons in vehicles who had

19     certain passes.  Such persons were not even stopped.

20        Q.   When I say a discretionary right, this is the kind of a situation

21     that I have in mind.  Let me clarify this for you.  Such persons, these

22     persons, policemen who manned those check-points in Kljuc municipality in

23     1991 and early 1992, policemen who were members of the SJB in Kljuc, had

24     a discretion to stop somebody as they saw fit and let somebody pass.

25     Isn't that right?

Page 6214

 1        A.   Not exactly like that.  They had patrol instructions that they

 2     were supposed to implement during their duty shift at the check-point.

 3     However, certain vehicles such as JNA vehicles or other vehicles with

 4     special designation would be stopped only pro forma, without actually

 5     checking the vehicle, without inspecting it, and then they would be let

 6     through.

 7        Q.   So if I understood you well, you want to say that the entire

 8     traffic on that road passing through that check-point, every vehicle was

 9     stopped and some sort of an inspection was conducted; right?

10        A.   Yes, precisely.

11        Q.   And if vehicles had special passes, the ones that you mentioned,

12     JNA vehicles and the like, they would be let through without inspection,

13     whereas in other cases they would actually inspect.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   This inspection encompassed establishing somebody's identity;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes, establishing the identity of passengers, a search of

18     luggage, vehicle, and so on.

19        Q.   All right.  So establishing the identity -- I stopped for the

20     sake of the transcript, Mr. Dzafic.  I apologise to you.  Sir, both of us

21     need to slow down, because the interpreters need to interpret, and then

22     it needs to be recorded and so on.

23             So when we say establishing the identity, that means that

24     everyone who was in a vehicle was ID'd.  They had to show their ID.  Plus

25     a driver had to show his papers, papers for the vehicle, his driver's

Page 6215

 1     licence, and so on.  Am I right in stating this?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Then the MUP policemen had to open up the vehicle, open up the

 4     trunk, and the purpose of that was to confiscate any illegal weapons or

 5     any illegal substances transported in the vehicle; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And if they were -- if there were to be somebody in the vehicle

 8     without proper IDs, or if they found a controlled substance, illegal

 9     substance or an object in the car, then the policemen, in accordance with

10     their authorities under the law, would take up the measures as prescribed

11     in the law; right?

12        A.   Yes, precisely so.

13        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, tell me, please, you remember that in 1991, pursuant

14     to an order from the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina and also an order from the Minister Alija Delimustafic, who

16     was minister of the interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina, the reserve forces were called up.  Reserve police forces

18     were called up.  It was in the summer or perhaps September of 1991.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So from that moment on when the reserve police forces were

21     mobilised in the summer or in September of 1991 due to a somewhat

22     deteriorating security situation, the reserve forces remained activated

23     until April of 1992 and onwards.

24        A.   The people who were activated were almost identical to active

25     police members.  They were just as active.

Page 6216

 1        Q.   Yes, especially given the period of time during which they were

 2     activated.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I think that you will be of great assistance to us in

 5     explaining some of the units that you mentioned yesterday on page 52,

 6     line 3 and onwards.  Yesterday, my learned friend asked you about

 7     manoeuvre units and then you explained them.  Do you remember that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   If I remember well, you said that a manoeuvre unit was composed

10     of younger trained members of the MUP, and there were approximately 60 of

11     them in Kljuc, two platoons, if I remember well, and those are the people

12     that were trained in various specialties, for example, dispersing crowds

13     and other needs.  Do you remember stating that?

14        A.   I said that a manoeuvre unit in Kljuc had about 60 members.  In

15     establishment terms, it comprised two platoons, and then each platoon had

16     squads that were specialised in certain areas, and if the unit was

17     engaged in activities in the territory of the unit, it was led by an

18     officer from the Kljuc SJB.  And if it was engaged in activities in other

19     municipalities, then the person who would decide on that was --

20        Q.   Yes.  I remember that.  You said that yesterday.  No need to

21     repeat, but I just want to clarify something that hopefully will be of

22     assistance to the Chamber and everybody else.

23             This manoeuvre unit, it existed in plans, didn't it?  It had --

24     it was listed in various documents.  All of its members during normal

25     working hours were engaged in their regular duties.  Isn't that true?

Page 6217

 1        A.   Active policemen - and about 30 per cent of them were members of

 2     the manoeuvre unit - once they completed manoeuvre activities would

 3     return to their regular police duties; whereas reserve policemen would go

 4     back to their companies where they normally worked.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Perhaps the best way to proceed is to provide an

 6     example.

 7             Let's imagine this, the following situation:  There is a football

 8     match in Banja Luka.  For instance, Zeleznicar and Borac are in the

 9     match, and there is an assessment that there might be some riots after

10     the football match.  The Banja Luka police station, which is charged with

11     crowd control during this match will then ask for assistance from other

12     police stations in the area because they do not have a sufficient number

13     of men in order to provide security for such an event.  At that point the

14     chief or the commander would issue an order, for instance, for a platoon

15     of 30 active policemen, that manoeuvre unit, for instance, to be assigned

16     to Banja Luka and carry out the assignment which would be to provide

17     security during this football match.  And in the same manner Kljuc would

18     provide 30 men, Sanski Most 15, Prijedor 12, and so forth.  Is this -- is

19     this how it worked?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So in other words, they would be assigned there, the football

22     match is over, the entire assignment took some five or six hours, and

23     then they returned to Kljuc, members of this manoeuvre unit.  And then

24     once they are back in Kljuc, they would just go back to their normal

25     police work and duties, such as patrolling, duty service and so on.  Is

Page 6218

 1     that how it worked?

 2        A.   Yes, exactly.  Except that the platoon from Kljuc, for instance,

 3     that you mentioned would be subordinated to a commanding officer in

 4     Banja Luka, and that commanding officer in Banja Luka would then

 5     assign -- assign them tasks.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  You've been very helpful.

 7             Now, sir, let us just make a distinction here.  The manoeuvre

 8     units that we've just described, and I think the description will

 9     suffice, they had nothing to do with the special -- with the MUP special

10     brigade from Sarajevo that was under the competence of the Ministry of

11     the Interior in Sarajevo.

12        A.   That's correct.  They had nothing to do with that.

13        Q.   This Special Police Brigade was a special brigade of the ministry

14     at its headquarters, and that brigade had no connections or no ties

15     whatsoever with these manoeuvre units; correct?

16        A.   Well, I can't really remember exactly, but I think that's about

17     right.

18        Q.   Thank you very much.  I think there's another topic where you

19     could be of great assistance to us, and I would like to put a few

20     questions to you about it.

21             Now, you've -- you mentioned yesterday the duty roster and some

22     other logs that were kept as a matter of procedure, standard procedure,

23     at various public security stations, or at least that was the case in

24     1990 and 1991 and 1992.

25             I apologise.  I'm working -- I'm waiting for the transcript to

Page 6219

 1     catch up with us.  I think we've just got carried away, both you and I.

 2             Now one of the logs or records that were kept by the policemen at

 3     the duty operations centre at the public security stations was a log-book

 4     of daily events; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   This log-book or diary which was kept at every security station

 7     would contain information and entries for any significant events or

 8     incidents that occurred on that particular day in the area of

 9     responsibility of that public security station.  Would you agree with me?

10        A.   Yes.  That log-book would -- would contain all that, and in

11     addition to the log-book there was also a diary of the duty officer, who

12     would also keep a record of every event that would be reported during his

13     duty shift.

14        Q.   So we do have a diary and the log-book, the operations officer's

15     log-book; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So these two documents are similar in nature.  I suppose that in

18     the log-book -- or in the duty diary the -- the -- there would be more

19     details.

20        A.   Yes, if there was some significant event, it would be described

21     in more detail in the diary.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, on the basis of this diary of all events in the

23     course of a day, at the end of the day there would be a report drafted;

24     is that correct?

25        A.   Do you mean the daily information report?

Page 6220

 1        Q.   Yes, the daily information report that you would be sending to

 2     the security services centre every day.

 3        A.   Yes, there would be a daily report for the past 24 hours, and it

 4     would be forwarded.

 5        Q.   And that daily information report would be based on the diary and

 6     log-book for the previous day.

 7        A.   Well, yes, of course.  That report would contain all the

 8     significant events that had to do with disturbances, public -- law and

 9     order, any traffic incidents and so on.

10        Q.   And every morning, as a rule, this report would be sent, the

11     report for the previous day.  It would be sent in the morning to the

12     security services centre; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, tell me this:  This daily report would be submitted in

15     written form as a dispatch, and it would be sent via teleprinter;

16     correct?

17        A.   Well, I can't really recall, but it was standard to send it.  It

18     was standard procedure to send it as a dispatch, but I can't really

19     recall clearly.  And if there was an emergency, then there would also be

20     reports made over the phone.

21        Q.   But the phone line or phone communication was only used in

22     emergencies; correct?  As a rule, the daily report was sent in writing;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Because obviously by phone it would be impossible to relate

Page 6221

 1     everything in such detail as you would be able to do it in a written

 2     report, correct, in a dispatch?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.  Thank you very much.  I have no further

 5     questions for you.  Have a good day.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dzafic.  Can you hear me?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.

10        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic, and I am on the Defence team of

11     Stojan Zupljanin.  I will have a few questions for you that relate to

12     your prior testimony and the statement that you provided to the

13     investigator of this Tribunal.

14             Since we both speak the same language, and I tend to speed up

15     when I speak, please make a pause between my question and your answer,

16     although I see that you already observe that, because this will help our

17     interpreters to do a better job.

18        A.   I'll do my best.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Dzafic, if I understood you correctly, in

20     1991 -- or, rather, from 1990 up until the -- all the changes that

21     happened after the multi-party elections, you were the commander of the

22     police station in Kljuc; correct?

23        A.   Well, since 1977 up until 1991, I was appointed first as the

24     deputy commander and then commander, and then after the elections I had

25     to -- I was appointed chief of the public security station.

Page 6222

 1        Q.   And at one point in time after the elections, up until

 2     Vinko Kondic was appointed, you actually were the acting chief of the

 3     public security station in Kljuc; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in that capacity as acting chief, you had occasion to meet

 6     with Zupljanin in Banja Luka when you attended these regular monthly

 7     meetings in Banja Luka; correct?

 8        A.   As far as I remember, even before I was appointed as acting

 9     chief, while I was still the commander, I met and attended these

10     regular -- I met with Mr. Zupljanin and attended these regular meetings

11     in Banja Luka; whereas during my capacity as acting chief, I believe

12     there were just one or two such occasions, one or two such meetings.

13        Q.   And once Vinko Kondic was appointed chief, you no longer attended

14     those meetings in Banja Luka; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you please now describe the chain of command, as it were,

17     the police chain of command, as a commander, "komandir" in B/C/S.  In

18     addition to your duties and responsibilities toward the chief, you also

19     had certain duties in the police structure as well, correct?

20        A.   Yes.  In the territory of the municipality there were various

21     public security stations.  The next level was the security services

22     centre, and the third level, the top level, was the Ministry of the

23     Interior in Sarajevo.

24        Q.   So in that -- within that structure at the public security

25     station you had occasion to communicate with Stevan Markovic at the CSB

Page 6223

 1     in Banja Luka, who was in charge of those duties; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And then the next one up the chain was the chief of the sector of

 4     the public security stations, Jahic Bajazit, who was at the Banja Luka

 5     CSB; correct?

 6        A.   I can't recall, but if that's what it says in the document, yes.

 7        Q.   And along -- or up that police chain of command, the public

 8     security chain of command, you also had occasion to go to Sarajevo, and

 9     the person who would be your superior there was Cedo Kljajic; correct?

10        A.   I can't really recall, but I know that before the multi-party

11     elections we had -- or I had, as the commander, we were inspected or

12     inspections were conduct by some inspectors from Sarajevo.  They would

13     review our work and review my work as a commander, a sort of supervisor.

14        Q.   But as a matter of principle, in addition to this chain of

15     command you were also responsible or you also answered to the chief of

16     the public security station, Vinko Kondic; correct?

17        A.   Well, yes.  He was my immediate superior at the public security

18     station.

19        Q.   And if you were issued or sent a communication from Markovic that

20     differed from the order or assignment issued by Vinko Kondic, you would

21     actually have to abide by Vinko Kondic's order or obey his order;

22     correct?

23        A.   Well, that would depend on the substance.

24        Q.   Well, for instance, if you were issued an order to carry out a

25     check somewhere or an inspection and you were issued this order by

Page 6224

 1     Vinko Markovic -- by Markovic and Vinko Kondic were to tell you not to --

 2     that you didn't have to do that, you wouldn't do it; right?

 3        A.   Well, they wouldn't really issue contradictory commands.

 4     However, toward of end of 1991 and in early 1992, there were some

 5     contradictory orders.

 6        Q.   And then what would your duty be?  What was it that you would

 7     have to carry out, whose orders?

 8        A.   Well, I would have to discuss this with Chief Kondic, and then we

 9     would agree on what it was that we would have to carry out.

10        Q.   And his would be the final decision; correct?

11        A.   Well, more or less, yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, in your statement you described the appointment of

13     Stojan Zupljanin as chief of the security services centre.  That's on

14     page 4 of your statement.  You have it before you.  That's under tab 1 in

15     the binder, and the 65 ter number is 9016.  That's in the OTP binder,

16     whereas in the e-court -- Witness, would you please take a look at

17     page 4.  The ERN number is 007113.  That's page 3 in the English.

18     007113.  So you've found that, I suppose.

19             There it says before the -- prior to the multi-party elections,

20     Stojan Zupljanin was the chief of the crime police of the municipal SUP

21     for Banja Luka, and then as chief of the municipal SUP in Banja Luka.  He

22     was then appointed the chief of the CSB for Banja Luka region after three

23     other candidates turned down the appointment offers.

24             Just a brief clarification here.  Was it standard practice, both

25     in the case of your appointment and in this case, that a number of

Page 6225

 1     candidates be proposed for a certain post within the police force?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And that was the case with you as well; is that correct?  There

 4     were several candidates who were proposed for your post?

 5        A.   Well, as far as I can remember, there were two other candidates

 6     for my post, in addition to myself.

 7        Q.   And now if I were to tell you that in addition to Zupljanin, for

 8     this post there were a number of candidates, is that how I am to read

 9     this statement of yours?  Perhaps I'm mistaken.

10        A.   Could you please repeat your question?  I didn't get you.

11        Q.   Well, when Stojan Zupljanin was appointed as chief of the CSB,

12     there were a number of other appointee -- a number of other candidates

13     for that post.  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, but I learned from one candidate personally that he declined

15     the offer.  He was formally placed on the list as a candidate, but he was

16     not prepared to actually take the post.  If you'd like me to, I can give

17     you his name.

18        Q.   We can go into private session if you wish.

19        A.   He was chief of the criminal investigation police for Banja Luka

20     region.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the name of the

22     person.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, is this terribly relevant or

24     important?

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I just wanted to

Page 6226

 1     clarify something from the statement, because reading the statement, it

 2     would appear that everyone else turned down the offer and that that's why

 3     Stojan Zupljanin was appointed.  That's all I wanted to clarify, and I'm

 4     moving to more important topics.  This was just a minor one.

 5        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, in your statement you described this procedure on

 6     signing the solemn declaration by which the policemen would accept or

 7     decline loyalty to the authorities.  You said that mostly all Muslims

 8     rejected to sign this declaration except for one Croat.  Do you remember

 9     mentioning that?

10        A.   I do.  In a meeting, there were active policemen present from

11     Kljuc who were non-Serbs, and mostly all of them refused to sign loyalty

12     to Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   Except for Zdeno Modric.  You mentioned him; right?

14        A.   Yes, Zdeno Modric whose parents were of two different

15     ethnicities.

16        Q.   And Alija Salihovic; right?

17        A.   I don't remember that name.  I don't think there is a policeman

18     called Alija Salihovic.

19        Q.   He used to play handball.

20        A.   Alija Salihovic was a reserve policeman, not an active one.

21        Q.   And he accepted to remain in the police of Republika Srpska;

22     right?

23        A.   I don't know.  I hear it for the first time now.  I know

24     Mr. Alija Salihovic personally.  He teaches physical education.

25        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, at one point in time after your arrest you were taken

Page 6227

 1     to the school in Sitnica.  Do you remember that?

 2        A.   Yes, certainly.

 3        Q.   On that occasion an officer told you as you arrived that you

 4     would be transferred to Manjaca; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  On the same day, just prior to our departure for Manjaca.

 6        Q.   And he said to you that you would be escorted by military police;

 7     right?

 8        A.   I don't remember.  He said that we would be escorted and that

 9     nobody should dare to escape or do anything else, otherwise they would

10     use weapons, since we went from Sitnica to Manjaca on foot.

11        Q.   I will remind you of that now.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

13     addendum to the statement, 65 ter 10247.  This is from the OTP binder.

14        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, while we're waiting, it's the addendum where you

15     corrected certain things and you described precisely this event.  So I

16     wanted to refresh your memory concerning it.

17        A.   No problem at all.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  It's tab 3 of this binder.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation] I said tab 3.  It wasn't recorded

20     in the transcript.

21        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, please look at paragraph 7 of this statement, where

22     you say:

23             "He told me we would be escorted by the military police and that

24     I and other Muslim policemen, and there were approximately five of us,

25     should place ourselves along the entire convoy."

Page 6228

 1             Do you remember that?

 2        A.   Yes.  I remember the words of that person, security person, who

 3     told me that, but that's not how it was.  He told this to me in the

 4     office in the gym at Sitnica.  He said to me that this -- this morning as

 5     we were about to go on foot from Sitnica to Manjaca.

 6        Q.   And then at some point in time you set out in a column to

 7     Manjaca; right?

 8        A.   Sometime in the morning, at around 10.00, we were lined up in

 9     front of the gym, and we were in a long column, five of us in a row.  We

10     had our hands behind our heads.  We had to face the ground, and we

11     started out on foot towards Manjaca.  On both sides of our column were

12     members of reserve police forces of the reserve police branch office in

13     Sitnica.

14        Q.   And in front of you --

15        A.   Behind us there was a vehicle.  I was quite beaten up.  I was in

16     terrible pain, and I was somewhere in the beginning of the column.  There

17     was a vehicle travelling behind us.  It could have been a minibus or a

18     van.  I can't remember now.  At any rate, the vehicle was for the persons

19     who couldn't walk.  Those people would be put in that vehicle and

20     transported together with us to Manjaca.

21        Q.   And this military officer who told you that --

22        A.   Well, that military officer was in his vehicle, and he travelled

23     in front of us, quite ahead, quite a lot ahead of us in order to secure

24     unhindered passage for us, because there were local residents in various

25     settlements.  For example, in Kadina Voda where we rested and where we

Page 6229

 1     were given some water.  Local residents gathered there, and they wanted

 2     to shoot at us, and this military officer dispersed those crowds.  That's

 3     why he travelled in front of us.

 4        Q.   And he was travelling in a passenger vehicle, in his passenger

 5     vehicle.

 6        A.   I don't remember that.  I know that that military officer wore a

 7     military uniform, a camouflage multicoloured uniform, and he introduced

 8     himself to us as a security person.  He had a rank.

 9        Q.   Please go ahead.  I interrupted you.

10        A.   As far as I remember, he was a captain or perhaps a lieutenant.

11     He had two or three stars.  I'm not sure.

12        Q.   And he escorted you to Manjaca, to the location where you were

13     handed over.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And along the road you stopped twice, if I understood you well,

16     to have some water.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And there were just natural sources with jerry cans next to them

19     to enable you to drink water; right?

20        A.   Those were natural sources, and the locals would bring their

21     buckets and jerry cans, the ones that they used in their households.

22        Q.   Sitnica, from which you started out, it is outside of Kljuc on

23     the very edge of Manjaca; right?

24        A.   Sitnica is a local commune within Kljuc municipality.  The last

25     one bordering with Banja Luka and Manjaca.

Page 6230

 1        Q.   And you think that it's 10 to 15 kilometres away, right, this

 2     place where you set out from to Manjaca?

 3        A.   Well, let me explain it to you.  From Sitnica, from the gym in

 4     Sitnica to Manjaca there is some 10 or so kilometres.  That road was very

 5     long for us given our exhaustion and general condition that we were in.

 6        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I looked at your CV, and it appears that you

 7     graduated from the school for reserve officers in Zadar; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  I graduated from the school for reserve officers in Zadar

 9     as an artillery man.

10        Q.   During your training there, were you instructed in how to escort

11     prisoners of war?  Were you given any instruction in provisions on

12     escorting prisoners of war, namely, that they could be transported on

13     foot, in trucks, by train, and so on?

14        A.   I don't remember that.  The training that we had at the school

15     for reserve officers was eight months long.  We were mostly taught

16     military subjects.  We had to learn a lot.  So that's what I can tell

17     you.

18        Q.   It wasn't recorded in the transcript.  You said, "More or less I

19     was familiar with that"; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, as an officer, do you know that when combat

22     operations are carried out -- and naturally you as policemen must have

23     participated in some military exercises in the old Yugoslavia; right?

24     And then when these military operations are conducted and police forces

25     participate in it, then they are resubordinated to the military in that

Page 6231

 1     operation; right?

 2        A.   I had no military exercises with combat operations.  However, I

 3     am familiar, from the command and control system, with that principle,

 4     that if a number of units are participating, then some units are

 5     subordinated to some other units within this command and control system.

 6     They are subordinated to the unit in charge of that particular exercise.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, the Prosecutor asked you and showed you a document,

 8     and I would like you to look at it now.  This is 23 in the OTP binder.

 9     Tab 23.  791 is the number on the 65 ter list.

10             You have the document before you; right?

11        A.   Yes.  I saw it yesterday for the first time.

12        Q.   In the first paragraph it says that the weapons relocated because

13     there is a serious threat that the Green Berets could attack the depot

14     where the weapons are held, and as far as you know, this is not true.

15     There was no looming danger, no threat; right?

16        A.   I said yesterday Vrhpolje is in Sanski Most municipality.  As for

17     Velagici, I had no such information that there was a risk, that there was

18     a danger that members of the Green Berets would attack the police

19     station.  I had no such information as long as I was commander.

20        Q.   So according to you, the information in this document is not

21     correct; right?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   And then in Velagici, where it says that the greatest number of

24     risk is posed by Green Berets from Velagici, that is not true either;

25     right?

Page 6232

 1        A.   Well, there were a lot of guards set up in many locations.  The

 2     residents of Velagici were predominantly Muslim.  It is just a local

 3     commune, and this information here that there were 12.500 inhabitants is

 4     really exaggerated.

 5        Q.   So this entire report is not reliable; right?

 6        A.   In my view, this intelligence report is not reliable.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.

 8             Yesterday, in reply to questions put to you by the Prosecutor,

 9     you spoke of a unit of Red Berets who had come to Kljuc in order to

10     restore law and order -- or, rather, to deal mostly with the military

11     conscripts who would cause disorder when coming back from the front.  I

12     want to clarify that those were military persons.  These members of the

13     Red Berets, they were from the 5th Military Corps; right?

14        A.   I don't know who they were and to which army they belonged, but

15     we in Kljuc considered them to be Green Berets, about a dozen of them,

16     not more than that.  And at that time in Kljuc there were numerous

17     disruptions of law and order by soldiers who would come back home from

18     the front and cause disorder in various pubs and cafes and so on.  So

19     these members would assist regular police officers in -- in conducting

20     regular police activities.

21        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, a correction for the transcript.  I think it was a

22     slip of the tongue.  You said Green Berets, whereas you must have meant

23     Red Berets.

24        A.   Yes.  I meant Red Berets.

25        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, in 1995, after the forces of the Muslim/Croat

Page 6233

 1     federation entered Kljuc, at one point in time you returned to Kljuc and

 2     you were appointed as the chief of public -- of the public security

 3     station in Kljuc; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  That was on the 1st of February, 1996.

 5        Q.   On this occasion, if I understood your testimony correctly, in

 6     the safe box in Kljuc you found a certain number of documents that

 7     related to -- from 1992 to 1995, documents of the public security station

 8     and the Crisis Staff for those years; correct?

 9        A.   Those were documents that we found in a safe box which we had to

10     open by force because we didn't have a key.  We had to use a special

11     device.  And in the safe box we found those documents.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, I apologise for interrupting you,

13     but there is some confusion, at least in the transcript, regarding the

14     answer that the witness gave to your question just a while ago about the

15     identity of this unit of Red Berets that came to help out, to restore law

16     and order in conclusive.  You suggested to the witness that they were

17     part of the 5th Military Corps, and the answer that was given by the

18     witness never really clarified whether this unit was under the control of

19     the JNA or under the control of the MUP.  Could you please clarify this

20     issue, because I think that was the purpose of your question.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

22        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, this platoon -- or, rather, this squad that dealt

23     with these conscripts who created disturbances, do you know under whose

24     role they were?  Were they under military control, under the Territorial

25     Defence or was it some other force?

Page 6234

 1        A.   Well, they provide -- they were regularly on duty on the premises

 2     of the TO, so I infer from that that they were under the control of the

 3     TO or that they came upon a summons by the commander of the TO, and they

 4     spent most of their time there, but from time to time they would also

 5     take part in active policing in the town itself.

 6        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I apologise, but let us go back to our earlier topic.

 7             Now, you know that once the Muslim/Croat federation forces

 8     entered Kljuc some documents were filed, that the AID actually seized

 9     these documents and then forwarded them to this Tribunal; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you have occasion to review these documents during your

12     interview with the Prosecution?  Were you shown some of these documents?

13        A.   Well, I was shown some of those documents.  There were reports

14     there, and I have to state this, that the 5th Corps units entered Kljuc.

15     They were the first units who entered Kljuc, and they also seized some

16     documents.

17        Q.   Those documents were later forwarded to the Prosecutor, correct,

18     as far as you know?

19        A.   Well, I imagine.

20        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I would now like to show you one of those documents,

21     and I will need your assistance with it.  That is the document under

22     tab 10 in the OTP binder, and it is marked as 2D1000.  That's in the

23     Defence binder, not the Prosecutor's binder.  I apologise.

24             Mr. Dzafic, would you take a look at this first page.  It says

25     there the document's in writing that we found in Kljuc SJB, and the same

Page 6235

 1     document was found during the mop-up operation in Kljuc.  It speaks of

 2     disarming of the guards in villages, their arrest and transfer to

 3     Manjaca, a concentration camp.

 4             This is a note that was, I assume, drafted not by someone from

 5     Republika Srpska but, rather, from the people who actually found these

 6     documents.  Would you agree with me?  I mean, we can infer that from the

 7     manner in which this document was drafted.

 8        A.   Well, this is the first time that I see this.  I can't really

 9     comment on it.  I don't know.

10        Q.   Well, here's my question, then.  You said in your statement that

11     an acquaintance told you that when the Serbian Crisis Staff was formed,

12     was established, there was talk about a Muslim Crisis Staff being formed

13     as well and that there would be a meeting to that effect.  However, that

14     meeting was never held because the person who was supposed to come to

15     this meeting never showed up.  Do you recall talking about this?

16        A.   Yes, I do.  This conversation was conducted in Sanica

17     municipal -- in Sanica -- in Sanica area.  One of my ex-teachers told me

18     that a Serbian Crisis Staff had been established in Sanica and that there

19     should be a Muslim Crisis Staff also established there in Sanica, whose

20     president would be the village elder.  However, that person never showed

21     up, nor was that Crisis Staff ever established.

22        Q.   Well, now I have another question.  Would you please turn to the

23     next page of this document.  We see some names there.  The ERN number is

24     0034-9549.

25        A.   All right.

Page 6236

 1        Q.   Here we see some names.  Under number 1 we see the name of

 2     Muhamed Filipovic.  Did you know this person?

 3        A.   As far as I can see, it's Omer Filipovic under number 1.

 4        Q.   No, no.  Just look up at the very beginning of the list.

 5        A.   Very well.  I see it now.

 6        Q.   So there we see the name of Muhamed Filipovic.  Did you know this

 7     man?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   He was a member of the SDA; correct?  If you know.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   The next person is Omer Filipovic; correct?

12        A.   Yes.  That was his brother.

13        Q.   You knew him too?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You also knew Asim Egrlic; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   As well as Iksan Zukanovic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So basically all these individuals under numbers 1 through 6 and

20     then in the next paragraph, 1 to 4, you knew all these people; correct?

21        A.   I didn't know from the first list the person under number 5; and

22     on the second list, I didn't know the individual under number 3.

23        Q.   That's Nevzad Djeric; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Would you now please turn a page, go to the next page, and there

Page 6237

 1     it says, "The Velagici Company."  Let me ask you about these individuals.

 2     This first person, is that Ekrem Cekic or Cehic?

 3        A.   Yes, this is Ekrem Cehic.  I don't know this person.  I had no

 4     information whatsoever about the military units that we see here on the

 5     list.

 6        Q.   Yes, but this person Salihovic Salih was detained at Manjaca

 7     together with you, correct?

 8        A.   Well, there was a Salihovic, but I don't know whether his first

 9     name was Salih or whether this could have been a different person.  I'm

10     not sure.

11        Q.   The Mustafic person, Ismet Mustafic from Krasulje, was he at

12     Manjaca with you?

13        A.   You mean Muratovic?

14        Q.   Well, Muratovic or Muratagic.  I can't really tell.  It's not

15     clear.  The handwriting is unclear.

16        A.   I don't remember this person from Manjaca, but you can check the

17     list of prisoners.

18        Q.   Were people from Prhovo detained with you at Manjaca?

19        A.   Yes.  I saw the people from Prhovo for the first time while we

20     were detained at the gym in Sitnica.  They were brought in.  They had

21     been badly beaten, and they were put in the same gym where I was

22     detained.

23        Q.   Please look at page 3 of this document where it says that some

24     people -- I don't know if this is Cazo Medanovic.  It says Prhovo.

25     That's under number 6.  The name of Cazim Medanovic appears, and then

Page 6238

 1     next to it says "prison."

 2        A.   Yes.  It says "Cazim Medanovic, prison."

 3        Q.   Do you recall seeing him?

 4        A.   Do you mean at Manjaca?

 5        Q.   Or in the prison?

 6        A.   Do you mean at Manjaca?

 7        Q.   Yes, yes.

 8        A.   Yes, I did see him, of course.

 9        Q.   It says here that he was imprisoned, because next to his name we

10     see the word "prison."

11        A.   May I just add something here?  You see, because of the number of

12     people who were held in these gyms up until the time when we were

13     transferred to Manjaca, and this was a long time ago so I can't really

14     recall every name and last name, there were people called Medanovic, but

15     whether it was Cazim or someone else, I can't really tell with certainty.

16        Q.   Would you now please move to the last page of this document and

17     take a look at this last paragraph that reads:

18             "The following police officers were detained:  Atif Dzafic,

19     commander."  That is a reference to you; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Then it says Mehmedalija Husic; correct?  If my reading of this

22     is correct.

23        A.   Yes.  Mehmedalija Husic, he was a police officer; Resid Omerovic,

24     police officer; Atif Dedic, police officer; Suad Medic, police officer;

25     and Hamdija Kumalic, police officer.

Page 6239

 1        Q.   And they were detained together with you; correct?

 2        A.   Well, I don't what this here actually refers to.  If this is a

 3     reference to Manjaca, then yes, my answer is yes.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I please -- I

 5     move to tender this document.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  This is an objection on this.  It's a handwritten

 7     document which the witness says he hasn't seen before.  He doesn't know

 8     who wrote it, and all he can do is verify that people on that list were

 9     with him in Manjaca.  But what I anticipate the Defence want the

10     inference to be taken is -- from Your Honours is that the -- their

11     position such as the -- the descriptions of their vocations next to their

12     names is -- is what is going to be relied upon, and this witness hasn't

13     made any comment about that, and if that is going to be the intention,

14     I'd ask that he be given the opportunity to -- to comment.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would appeal to the

17     Trial Chamber to apply the same standard that was applied yesterday when

18     documents were tendered by the Prosecution.  I showed the names of these

19     individuals to the witness.  I showed him the places where they had come

20     from, and I asked him whether they were there with him, by which I wanted

21     to demonstrate -- or let me just say this is a document that we actually

22     received from the Prosecution.  So would you please apply the same

23     standard that was applied yesterday when the Prosecution documents were

24     being tendered.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 6240

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, before we rule on this issue could

 2     you enlighten us as to the provenance of the document?  Who -- who

 3     drafted this document?  When and --

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document was

 5     drafted by the police who conducted an investigation.  It was found when

 6     the Muslim/Croat federation forces entered Kljuc, and we received this

 7     document from the Prosecution.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do we have any idea as to who actually wrote

 9     this?

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This was written by the

11     investigator who conducted the investigation into the arming.  In other

12     words, the person who investigated the individuals who were detained.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So the investigator wrote this down, but did --

14     he did so after an interview with someone or -- where does the

15     information come from?

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you look at page 2

17     of this document, it was drafted on the 10th of June, 1992, after the

18     interviews conducted with most of these individuals.  The document comes

19     from the public security station in Kljuc where it was seized.  It was

20     seized by the police of the Bosnia-Herzegovina federation when they

21     entered Kljuc in 1995.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So if I'm -- just make sure that I understand

23     this correctly.  There was in June 1992 an investigation made as to,

24     among other things, the persons who were sent off to Manjaca, and during

25     this investigation one of the investigators took down these notes, and

Page 6241

 1     these notes were then later found at the SJB.  Thank you.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, just if I may add.  The document has

 5     the date of the 10th of June on it, and my learned friend has said that

 6     interviews were conducted with the individuals named in this document.

 7     Now, the previous witness for the Prosecution and this witness for the

 8     Prosecution were both named in this document.  There's no evidence before

 9     Your Honours that interviews were conduct by an investigator at this

10     time, and so I'm just wondering where my learned friend has that

11     information from and whether evidence is going to be tendered to support

12     his submission.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We will come to that.  My next

14     document would be one of the statements taken by investigators,

15     Your Honours.  So could we show to the witness tab -- I apologise.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, taking Ms. Pidwell's question, we would

18     agree to the document being exhibited at this point with the

19     understanding that it is for the limited purpose of it being a document

20     which the witness has testified to, that he recognises some of the names

21     on it, but any inferences that you would wish the Chamber to draw further

22     than that, there would need to be more evidence.  So we would have it

23     marked and admitted at this stage subject to that limitation, with that

24     understanding.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  The exhibit will be given number 2D44.

Page 6242

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 2D02-100 -- I

 2     apologise.  2D06-0510, and that's tab 53 in the Defence binder, and it is

 3     in reference to the objection raised just now by the Prosecution.

 4        Q.   Let us clarify that.  Mr. Dzafic, before this document is shown

 5     to you, when you worked at the police, the standard procedure was that

 6     when somebody was brought into the police station, the police would

 7     interview that person and draft a statement; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And in that initial procedure that person would give that

10     statement either in the status of a citizen or in the status of a

11     suspect; right?  Depending on the assessment of the person interviewing

12     him or her; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And then the person giving the statement would sign the statement

15     and initial each page of the statement; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, would you please look at the statement before you.  Please

18     tell me, did you know Omer Filipovic?

19        A.   Yes, certainly.

20        Q.   The form of the statement is a typical one, isn't it?  This is

21     what statements normally look like taken in the regular standard

22     procedure by the police?

23        A.   Yes, at first glance it appears to be.

24        Q.   Please look at all the pages and the last page of this document.

25     You see that it is signed.  Please look carefully at all of the pages and

Page 6243

 1     you will see that there is an identical signature on each page.  Correct?

 2        A.   As far as I can see, yes.

 3        Q.   On the last page -- or, rather, the penultimate page -- first of,

 4     all, do you know that Omer Filipovic was appointed commander of

 5     Territorial Defence?

 6        A.   I did have that information that he was appointed commander, yes.

 7        Q.   And then this last paragraph, read it carefully, please --

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honours, is it convenient time for the break?

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I was about to invite you when you reach a

10     suitable point and we would take the break.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Sir, would you please read this paragraph and then this portion

13     where you are mentioned, the last sentence.

14             "I believed that Atif Dzafic, whom I didn't contact and who

15     doesn't know about this, should be in the internal affairs due to his

16     expertise."

17             So nobody contacted you, telling you that you needed to be

18     appointed to this position within the Ministry of the Interior?  You

19     didn't know about this?

20        A.   I never knew about that.  I'm really surprised to read this.

21        Q.   So this sentence is correct.  He never told you that you had been

22     planned for that position; right?

23        A.   Yes, right.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this

25     document into evidence.

Page 6244

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  There is an objection on that one.

 2             MS. KORNER:  And it has to do with the objection by the

 3     Prosecution.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  This is a statement made by a man that the witness

 5     does know or did know, but the witness is no longer alive and we have no

 6     evidence as to the circumstances of surrounding when or where or how this

 7     statement was taken, and there's no evidence to support any of the

 8     surrounding circumstances.  If it's tendered simply as an example of a

 9     statement taken with the limitation that -- the limitation of the portion

10     that Mr. Krgovic has put to this witness about himself, then I would

11     submit it be tendered simply with that caveat attached to it.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may reply

13     briefly.  If you look at the last page, it will describe the

14     circumstances under which the statement is taken.

15             "I have no complaints against the authorised officials who took

16     this statement from me because they applied correct procedure."

17             We received this document from the Prosecution and in order to

18     avoid making a motion under 92 quater, I wish to tender the statement

19     into evidence, because I think that if you apply the same standard that

20     you applied yesterday, when the Prosecution tendered a huge number of

21     documents through this witness, then I think you should do the same

22     today.  And the witness confirmed that this statement was signed and that

23     it was taken in accordance with the procedure in force at the time.  And

24     he also confirmed the accuracy of the information in this statement.  So

25     I think that this is sufficient grounds for admitting it.

Page 6245

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, accepting the very last statement you

 2     made about confirming the accuracy of the information, wouldn't it be --

 3     this would probably be better addressed to Ms. Pidwell.  Wouldn't the

 4     simpler course to be at this point to have it admitted as a fact with the

 5     truth to be developed as -- as we go along.  Going back to first

 6     principles and distinguishing the fact of the statement from the truth of

 7     the statement.  Wouldn't that be the simpler course?

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, if it's admitted on the basis that a

 9     statement was taken from this witness, on this date, in this manner, then

10     absolutely I agree with Your Honours on that basis.  The truth of the

11     contents is another matter, and if my learned friend is asking for the

12     Trial Chamber to adopt the accuracy of the information in the report, my

13     submission would be you can only adopt the accuracy of the information if

14     it is put to this witness as was that one small portion that -- that

15     has -- was put to him in prior -- prior, and that was the caveat that I

16     referred to previously.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Your response, Mr. Krgovic?

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Trial Chamber did

19     not have such a caveat when admitting Prosecution documents yesterday.  I

20     can look into more facts in the statement with this witness so as to have

21     him confirm that the events described here are accurate.  I just wanted

22     to apply the abbreviated procedure.  And naturally with other witnesses

23     we will be discussing contents of this statement.  We will be showing it

24     to other witnesses as well.  I simply believe this to be the first step

25     in establishing the events which -- and facts which took place in Kljuc

Page 6246

 1     municipality.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, it isn't particularly helpful for you

 3     to remind the Chamber that it should apply the same standards as it did

 4     previous, because the Chamber has to make a decision in respect of each

 5     application, and as I recall, the Prosecution's yesterday went in in

 6     terms of a package and I don't recall there being any objection by the

 7     Defence in terms of specific items in that package.  So that particular

 8     line isn't helpful.  But the -- holding you to what you have represented

 9     that you would be able to do, it seems to me that the -- that the

10     document would be admissible with that caveat.

11             So it's admitted and marked, and we are pastime for the break.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit Number 2D45.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just owe an

17     explanation.  My client has cap on his head because he has a cold and

18     there is an air-conditioning opening right above his head, so he's

19     wearing a cap to protect himself, and this is the reason for his athletic

20     appearance today.  We asked for him to be given cold medication.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Krgovic.  That has been

22     explained to us, and you can -- I would say to you in the presence of

23     your client, who I assume understand -- can hear me directly, that if he

24     feels unwell at any time he can indicate it to us.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, and another

Page 6247

 1     explanation.  Perhaps I used a wrong term.  It was not my intention to

 2     admonish the Trial Chamber.  I used a formulation that wasn't precise

 3     enough, so I apologise to you for doing that.  It was just before the

 4     break when we were discussing the issue of admitting this document into

 5     evidence.  I awkwardly expressed myself, and I apologise.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you explained to the Prosecution and also in your

 9     statement the events that preceded your arrest, so I would like to go

10     with you briefly over those events.

11             Can you please tell me -- or, rather, would you agree with me

12     that the first conflict that was more serious took place in Kljuc when

13     Deputy Commander Stojakovic was killed in Krasulje in May of 1992; right?

14        A.   On the day when the deputy commander, Mr. Stojakovic, lost his

15     life in Krasulje, I was in Sanica.  It wasn't until several days later

16     that I learned of the incident.

17        Q.   That's how I understood your testimony.  However, you heard that

18     there was shooting at the entry point into Krasulje, that an armed Muslim

19     group opened fire on the passing vehicles as a result of which Stojakovic

20     was killed and several policemen were wounded.  Did you hear of this

21     subsequently?

22        A.   I heard subsequently several versions of that incident.  I did

23     not investigate it myself, nor did I engage in the investigation process,

24     but there are several versions, one of which is the one you just told us.

25        Q.   And when the shooting was over, the people who were wounded and

Page 6248

 1     who were in the vicinity were picked up by the Kljuc police.  Do you know

 2     anything about it?  And that Omer Filipovic participated --

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, I would object to him continuing with

 4     this line of questioning as the witness has said that he heard various

 5     versions of this event.  At this time, he wasn't -- he had been dismissed

 6     from the Kljuc police command and was in Sanica, so any information that

 7     he has is, by his own admission, hearsay.  And there are various versions

 8     out there, none of which he knows which one is the truth.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, how does having regard --

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since hearsay is

11     admitted here, the witness referred to hearsay information numerous times

12     in examination-in-chief.  So my line of questioning when asking about

13     Omer Filipovic was aimed in that direction.  Who told him, when -- when

14     they told him that.  Fifty per cent of the statement that was admitted is

15     based on hearsay.  I need to verify with the witness what he heard, from

16     whom, and what was his role in it.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Except that the narrow question of hearsay apart,

18     the gravamen of Ms. Pidwell's objection is that what the witness has said

19     so far is that he wasn't present.  There were a variety of versions, and

20     he is in no position to testify to the accuracy or truth of one as

21     opposed to the other.  That is what I understand the objection to be.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will get to that.  I will clarify

23     that, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I apologise for this minor confusion.  When you were

25     at Manjaca, you were there with Omer Filipovic, and you used to see him

Page 6249

 1     there; right?

 2        A.   I wasn't with Omer Filipovic.  Omer Filipovic was in the last --

 3     in the third stable, and I was in the second stable at Manjaca.

 4        Q.   Did you have occasion to see him?

 5        A.   Occasionally when we went to have our meals, until he was placed

 6     in a solitary confinement cell, the one that we described that way.

 7        Q.   Did you discuss these events?

 8        A.   No.  As far as I remember, no.

 9        Q.   And the event when the convoy in Busija was attacked, you learned

10     of it one or two hours later from Dragan Tomic, a squad commander.

11        A.   Since I had spent several days in Sanica with my family, I was

12     about to return to Kljuc, and on that very day I was informed -- or,

13     rather, since I had information that the road between Velagici and Sanica

14     was blocked, I met up with the commander of the police squad in Sanica,

15     and he told me about the convoy and that the road was blocked and that

16     there was no movement until further notice.

17        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you will agree with me that all the way up until the

18     26th or 27th of May, when these incidents took place and when policeman

19     Stojakovic was killed and when the military convoy in Busija was

20     attacked, there were no conflicts in the territory of Kljuc municipality?

21        A.   There were some individual killings previously.  There was a

22     killing in Sanica and one in the centre of Kljuc.  However, these two

23     incidents were more pronounced than the previous events.

24        Q.   This incident that you spoke about in the centre of Kljuc, that

25     was sometime in April or early 1992; right?

Page 6250

 1        A.   I don't remember, but I know that in the centre of Kljuc, at an

 2     intersection, Dervisevic was killed, a citizen.

 3        Q.   Dervisevic, Senad; right?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  He was killed by a military conscript of Serb

 5     ethnicity.

 6        Q.   He was killed by a soldier called Boro Grujicic, from Sitnica;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes, precisely so.  Boro Grujicic from Sitnica.  And previously

 9     there was a killing in Sanica.  Admir Selmanovic, yes.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

11        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you must have heard this.  The two of us understand

12     each other, and I will do my best not to interrupt you when you're

13     speaking.

14             So this event, when Senad Dervisevic was killed, that killing was

15     resolved, and it was investigated by an inspector called Muharem Musovic

16     [as interpreted], called Muki; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And he was arrested, but since he was a military person he was

19     taken over by the military police from Banja Luka who took them with him;

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you said it was in late 1991, early 1992.  Roughly in that

23     period of time; right?

24        A.   Precisely so.

25        Q.   And for the other crime you mentioned in Sanica, the same

Page 6251

 1     inspector, Muharem Muheljic investigated this other crime as well, but

 2     the perpetrator was never found; right?

 3        A.   An investigation was conducted.  A number of persons were

 4     suspected of this crime, but ultimately the perpetrator was never

 5     identified.

 6        Q.   And following that, following these tensions and problems with

 7     reservists in Kljuc municipality, until the ambushes there were no armed

 8     incidents of greater significance as far as you know; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, yes.

10        Q.   And that actually signified the beginning of the conflict in

11     Kljuc or the beginning of combat operations, if we can call them that?

12        A.   Yes.  The 27th of May, following which the well-known events took

13     place.

14        Q.   Yes.  We know about that.

15             Mr. Dzafic, the Prosecutor, when you spoke about exhumation, you

16     spoke about the event at the school in Velagici when a large number of

17     Muslims were killed.  You know about that event, don't you?

18        A.   Yes, I remember that event because on that very day, on the

19     1st of June, I took a detour road -- rather, I was brought via a detour

20     road with a number of other citizens to there, and we had passed by the

21     check-point in Velagici in the vicinity of which there was an elementary

22     school where they kept Muslims from the territory of Velagici.

23        Q.   And you mentioned seeing a Serb soldier on that road.  You

24     mentioned his name, and you said that he was in a military uniform;

25     right?  I can't remember whom you mentioned.

Page 6252

 1        A.   I was on the first bus and there were a total of three.  We were

 2     escorted by active policemen and reservists.  There were two policemen on

 3     each bus.  We couldn't see much because we had been ordered to keep our

 4     hands behind our backs and to stare at the floor, and the curtains were

 5     drawn on the windows of the bus.  But as far as I could remember, at the

 6     check-point in Velagici there was a mixed composition of active and

 7     reserve police and military police.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, you have a --

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  I wonder if we could have a reference please.  The

10     question was you mentioned his name, you saw a Serb soldier on the road

11     in military uniform.  I can't remember whom you mentioned.  I don't know

12     where -- don't recall that coming out of evidence in-chief and I'm just

13     wondering where the reference came from in his statement, please.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I remember

15     reading this in one of the documents.  The witness did mention that, but

16     I can't find the reference right now.  So I just asked him if he could

17     recall the name of that person without actually me refreshing his memory.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  If you allow me, I mentioned a

19     person.  He was a salesperson of Serb ethnicity.  As we took the forest

20     road towards Velagici, I believe his name was Dragoja.  Is that the

21     person you're referring to?

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Yes, exactly at the check-point at Velagici.

24        A.   No, no, no.  This was at the check-point before Velagici.

25        Q.   I apologise.  I think I misunderstood your statement.  Now let's

Page 6253

 1     go back to the incident in Velagici or around Velagici.  You said that

 2     you had heard about this innocent when you were in Velagici; correct?  In

 3     Velagici.  That was on the 1st of June; correct?

 4        A.   Well, you see, I passed through that check-point sometime in the

 5     afternoon, and -- but while I was still in the stable, a person from

 6     Velagici came into our stable, a person who had been detained at the

 7     school and who had actually managed to survive an execution.

 8        Q.   Sir, I would like now to show you 2D42.  That's already an

 9     exhibit.  And that will be under tab 55 in the Defence binder.

10             Could you please read this.  This is a report or a request to

11     conduct an investigation of an individual.  And then if you turn the page

12     you will see -- look at the part which says:  "Because of a ground of

13     suspicion that," et cetera, et cetera.  So could you please read this

14     paragraph.

15             Does this deal with the incident that you were referring to?

16        A.   Yes.  This is a description of the incident that I learned of

17     later on when I was at Manjaca from this person, Mr. Draganovic.  I can't

18     really recall his name.

19        Q.   Could you please take a look at the individuals mentioned here.

20     Do you know or do you recognise any of these names?  Most of these were

21     military persons.

22        A.   Well, I recognise the person under number 3, Bosko Uncanin.  He

23     was from Sanica, a neighbour.  I also recognise Zoran Banjac under number

24     8.  And as for the rest, I see that they were conscripts.

25        Q.   These two were conscripts, as far as I can see here.

Page 6254

 1        A.   Yes, they were all conscripts.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  I apologise for the interruption.  I'm a little bit

 3     at a loss.  I can't find the document in the documents that were sent to

 4     us, and the one that's on the screen appears to be the statement that was

 5     previously tendered being -- it's just Mr. Filipovic's statement.

 6     Perhaps Mr. --

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 2D42.  I apologise.  Maybe the

 8     interpreters did not hear me well.  That's 2D42.  This was tendered and

 9     admitted yesterday.

10        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I apologise.  You can see that this deals with the

11     crime committed in Velagici, and that they were 12 individuals who were

12     interviewed as suspects and charged.  There was a request submitted for

13     an investigation to be conducted of these persons who were suspected of

14     having committed this crime, and it was suspected that these conscript --

15     conscripts had actually committed that murder in Velagici.

16        A.   Well, based on this request for an investigation, that's what it

17     would seem.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Another question.  Yesterday when you were --

19     during the examination-in-chief you mentioned the exhumation in Biljani.

20     I'm referring to an incident sometime in June 1992.  Do you recall that?

21        A.   On the 10th of June.

22        Q.   I apologise.  On the 10th of July.  Now, you learned of this

23     subsequently at Manjaca or --

24        A.   I learned of that at Manjaca, and after the war I was able to

25     ascertain this in person during the exhumation at Laniste 1 and 2.

Page 6255

 1        Q.   Sir, I would now like to show you a document that relates to that

 2     indent.  Could we see document 65 ter 814.  And in your binder it's under

 3     tab 48.  This document bears the number -- ERN number 65 ter 814964.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated].  Mr. Krgovic, I

 5     understand this document is not in the witness's binder so he will have

 6     to see it on the screen.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you heard this.  There was some sort of

 9     misunderstanding, so that you will actually see this document on the

10     screen.  I thought you would have it in hard copy, but apparently not.  I

11     apologise.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll it up a bit so that

13     we can see the heading of this document.

14        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, this is an order for further operations coming from

15     the VP to 207 command from Kljuc.  Can you see the document, Mr. Dzafic?

16        A.   Yes, I see number 1.  "I hereby order --"

17        Q.   Yes, where it says --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not have the English

19     version in front of them and the counsel is reading too fast.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.    "With parts of forces of the brigade carry out total blockade,

22     search and mopping up of the area in the sectors of Biljani -- Donji

23     Biljani, Domazeti, Botonjici, Jabukovac, Brkici."  Would you agree with

24     me that these are the locations mentioned?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6256

 1        Q.   And you can see on top that the date there is the 9th of July,

 2     1992.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And in fact, this is an order for combat operations in this

 5     sector where the killings at Donji Biljani had been committed; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Would you now please move on to the next page.  Let us just look

 8     at the signature portion of the document.  Can you make it out?  Can you

 9     see who the commander of this unit was?

10        A.   Well, could you please just scroll the text back and -- the part

11     which shows which units were to take part in this operation.

12        Q.   Yes, we will do it in a moment but just let's look at this.  So

13     the commander of this unit -- the commander was Colonel Samardzija.  Did

14     you know that man?

15        A.   No.  Brigade commander.

16        Q.   Did you hear of him?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you knew that he was the brigade commander at the time?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, if we take a look at the assignments per unit, we see that

21     there is a reconnaissance platoon, a police platoon.

22        A.   Yes.  This was the police squad from Sanica.

23        Q.   Now, in this situation the commander of this military unit issues

24     an order, and in fact, he is the commanding officer for the operation

25     described here in this order.

Page 6257

 1        A.   Well, yes, generally speaking.  In fact, this police squad was

 2     actually resubordinated to the military forces.

 3        Q.   And all the events that occurred during this combat operation and

 4     at the time when these units took part in carrying out combat

 5     assignments, they were all, in fact, under the control of that unit's

 6     commander; correct?

 7        A.   Well, generally speaking, yes, but the police commander had a

 8     crucial role as well because his proposals and his suggestions would be

 9     adopted and accepted by his superior commander.

10        Q.   What I am talking about and what I am referring to is the combat

11     operations, so the decision on which units to use and so on, the units

12     that were resubordinated to that commander, and he was the one who would

13     decide on which of them were to be use and of course he was responsible

14     for their actions; correct?

15             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm just wondering where this line of questioning

16     is going.  This witness is not army at all, and he's been asked a series

17     of questions about the command, the orders that were given in response to

18     an army document and he's not involved in this incident and doesn't have

19     any army experience.  I'm just wondering how far this line of questioning

20     is going to take us.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this man is an

22     officer -- an officer of the Yugoslav Army in reserve.  He had a rank,

23     although he was still a police officer.  And I think this is an excellent

24     opportunity to actually go through some of these documents with him, and

25     I don't know if the Prosecutor recalls, but one of the first questions

Page 6258

 1     that I put to this witness was whether he had actually gone through

 2     training for -- or graduated from a school for reserve officers.  And

 3     this is just a document that I wanted to show to this document [as

 4     interpreted] and have his assistance in showing how this worked, and of

 5     course the witness can confirm or disapprove of what I was trying to

 6     say -- show.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  But, Mr. Krgovic, apart from his --

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you are a reserve police officer -- police -- reserve

10     military; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  Apart from his elucidation of what the

13     documents say for themselves, how is the Chamber assisted other than

14     itself reading the -- seeing the documents?

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, I wanted to

16     provide a foundation for my question -- questions regarding this

17     document, and I wanted to inquire what his knowledge about these -- this

18     event or incident was.

19        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, did you have an opportunity to talk to people -- or,

20     rather, when I asked you about this incident, you specified the date of

21     this incident.  Did you have any knowledge of this incident in -- of this

22     operation in Donji Biljani and the entire operation and how it was

23     conducted?

24        A.   Well, I did find out from the people who had actually survived

25     this operation on the 10th of July.

Page 6259

 1        Q.   In other words, during the mopping up operation these people were

 2     captured, rounded up and brought in front of the school building where

 3     they were shot; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  Generally speaking, yes.  As for details regarding this

 5     incident, I think the best accounts could be actually given by the people

 6     who survived this crime, Semso and Dzafer.  They have more information

 7     than I would.

 8        Q.   But generally speaking, from what you learned from them and what

 9     we can see from this document, this was actually a military operation;

10     correct?

11        A.   Well, the order is a military order, but whether it was a

12     strictly military operation or not, I really can't tell.  I didn't take

13     part in it.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will tender this

15     document into evidence if there are no objections on the part of the

16     Prosecution.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  There's no objection.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D46.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I apologise for this problem with the documents, but

22     let me ask you this:  When you gave a statement to the Prosecution, you

23     said that you found some documents from the Crisis Staff, that you found

24     them in this safe box when you came to Kljuc in 1996.

25        A.   Yes.  In early 1996, we found them in the safe box.

Page 6260

 1        Q.   And when you testified -- or, rather, when you gave your

 2     statement, that happened in your house in Sanica, as far as I could

 3     gather, when these events took place on the 25th, 26th, and 27th.

 4     Correct me if I'm wrong.

 5        A.   From 23rd or 24th until the 1st of June I was there, yes.

 6        Q.   And you could only hear that there were combat operations in the

 7     area of Pudin Han and where other operations took place.  You could hear

 8     the shooting; right?  And that's the only evidence that you had.  You

 9     only heard of artillery shells and so on.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And later on you heard that there had been combat operations;

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.  I heard that later at Manjaca.  I heard what happened

14     concerning these incidents that we've discussed.

15        Q.   Now I will show you a document which was found.  I don't know

16     whether it was you who found it or the group before you, but could we see

17     tab 3 in my binder, please.  2D02-0967, please.

18             This document is dated the 30th of May, 1992.  It is a warning by

19     the Kljuc defence command and the Crisis Staff, and the extremists are --

20     were ordered to stop immediately with the shooting.  They were given a

21     15-minute deadline, and it was stated that women, children, and the

22     elderly were to move out within that 15-minute deadline, and if not

23     complied with, then the artillery would start firing.

24             Now, was this document from the collection that you found or from

25     some other collection of documents?

Page 6261

 1        A.   I can't tell you really.  This is the first time that I see this

 2     document with handwritten corrections.  And there is a list of documents

 3     that were found in that safe box.

 4        Q.   All right.  Do you know that the Kljuc defence command and the

 5     Crisis Staff of Kljuc issued such calls for people to surrender weapons

 6     and to go away?  Was it done?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of this.  However, at Manjaca I learned from the

 8     rumours circulating there that people could move about after they raised

 9     a white flag.

10        Q.   Now, would you please look at the next document.  It's a bit more

11     legible.  It's your tab 4, and it's also marked as 1110 on the 65 ter

12     list.  The document reads:  "Given the increasingly more frequent

13     provocations," then once again they're issuing the ultimatum asking that

14     women, children and the elderly withdraw, they would be forced to start

15     firing.

16             This is one such document, and then I would ask you to look at

17     the next document in your tab 5.  I'm interested in the white-flag issue.

18     65 ter number is 1112.  It's an order from Prhovo, and the white flag is

19     mentioned in that document.

20        A.   I didn't understand your question.

21        Q.   Well, the white flag is being mentioned there.  You said just a

22     minute ago that people who raised the white flag could move about.

23        A.   Yes.  I learned that at Manjaca from individuals who spoke about

24     it.  They went from one family house to another family house, and they

25     were allowed to do that after they had raise the white flag.

Page 6262

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now tender

 2     these documents into evidence if there are no objections on the part of

 3     the Prosecution.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  There's no objection.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibits 2D47, 2D48, and 2D49.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Another question, Mr. Dzafic.  As far as I could gather, you were

 9     an artillery officer; right?  Please remind me.  Reserve officer.  The

10     school that you graduated from in Zadar was the school for reserve

11     artillery officers, was that what it was, in the former Yugoslavia?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you must know that when artillery fire is being opened

14     against a settlement, in accordance with the laws of war, a warning

15     should have been issued to civilians to leave the area; right?

16        A.   Well, I had no experience in that, but in principle that's how it

17     should be.

18        Q.   I apologise.  I apologise.  Mr. Dzafic, the Prosecutor showed you

19     a document, that's OTP tab 34.  65 ter number is 831.

20             So the Prosecutor showed you these names, the names of the

21     prisoners.  I will be putting questions to you concerning the first page

22     of the document, where Vinko Kondic informs Banja Luka -- or, rather, the

23     CSB in Banja Luka and says:

24             "In the territory of our municipality there are no camps,

25     prisons, or collection centres."

Page 6263

 1             Do you know whether this is true, this piece of information?

 2        A.   The issue here is what do they mean when they say "collection

 3     centre."  If a collection centre is what existed in the gyms of various

 4     schools, then there were collection centres and people were kept there

 5     for two or three days, but if they mean places like Manjaca under

 6     collection centre, then no.

 7        Q.   Well, when I say "collection centre," I mean places where you and

 8     your compatriots were held.  So when Vinko Kondic says that there were no

 9     such places, no collection centres, that that was not true; correct?

10        A.   Well, listen, the date here is the 29th of August.  At that point

11     in time, I had been in Manjaca for quite a long time.  However, from the

12     minute I was arrested and imprisoned, I was first imprisoned at the gym

13     in Sanica.  I was held there for 24 hours.  Then I was detained at the

14     gym in Kljuc again.  And then the third gym was at Sitnica, where I spent

15     some five to seven days.  I'm not sure.  I'm not sure because I had been

16     beaten so severely that I was unconscious for some period of time.  And

17     then we were taken on foot to Manjaca.

18        Q.   So as far as you know, in Kljuc, were there any such locations

19     where detainees were held, regardless of what we call those names at the

20     time -- what we call those locations.

21        A.   When I was arrested, detainees were mostly held at the gym in

22     Kljuc and in the premises of the police station if Kljuc.  So there were

23     people both at the gym in Kljuc and the police station in Kljuc.

24        Q.   And after you were brought to Manjaca, there were people coming

25     to Manjaca from Kljuc after you had arrived; right?

Page 6264

 1        A.   Yes.  In smaller numbers and in smaller vehicles people were

 2     being brought to Manjaca.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.  When you were interviewed -- or, rather,

 4     you gave several statements while you were in Kljuc.  You gave a

 5     statement to a representative of the public security centre.  His name

 6     was Vasic or something like that.  And you also gave statements to

 7     officers, to soldiers.  You mentioned somebody called Mile Dragovic who

 8     wore a captain's uniform when he took a statement from you.

 9        A.   Well, this is how it was:  I gave my first statements --

10     statement at the elementary school in Kljuc to Mr. Vasic.  Nedeljko, I

11     think.  He took a statement from me.  And then after an hour or two on

12     this same day, on the same morning, gave a statement to a military person

13     who was a captain.  As I was giving that statement, Milicevic Dusko was

14     present in the room.  He used to know him well.  He was a police

15     inspector from Banja Luka.  Milicevic Dusko, nicknamed Cadjo.

16        Q.   And he wore a military uniform with a captain rank.

17        A.   He wore a uniform and the rank was that of a captain.

18        Q.   For the sake of the transcript:  So Milicevic Dusko wore a

19     military uniform and had the rank of captain.

20        A.   Yes, or perhaps lieutenant.  But at any rate, it was a military

21     uniform, and he was either a captain or a lieutenant.

22        Q.   And at that time when you went to Manjaca, in a part of your

23     statement you said that you had seen that Stojan Zupljanin came to

24     Manjaca in late July.  Do you remember that in your statement?  It's on

25     page 23 of your statement.  Do you remember stating that?

Page 6265

 1        A.   I remember.  I knew Mr. Zupljanin personally, and I remember

 2     that.  It was either in late July or early August.  He came to Manjaca,

 3     to the camp at Manjaca, and there were people accompanying him.  I saw

 4     him only in passing, because the prisoners from the other stable -- or,

 5     rather, from stable number 2, whose head I was, were going to take their

 6     meals.  That was lunchtime.  And given the previous experience and given

 7     what had happened in the camp prior to that, I didn't dare look around.

 8     I didn't dare see who was there.  We normally were under orders to keep

 9     our hands behind our backs and to stare at the ground or else there would

10     be beating, torture, and so on.

11        Q.   And you said so at the time.  You said that he was in a uniform,

12     and later on you corrected yourself, stating that he wore civilian

13     clothes.

14        A.   As far as I remember, he wore civilian clothes, but you know the

15     situation that I was in at the time.  I was afraid.  It was summertime.

16     I really wasn't paying attention.

17        Q.   And that was the only time that you saw or heard Stojan Zupljanin

18     visiting Manjaca; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And then on page 23 you say that you heard from Fahrudin Krivic,

21     that Mirsad Latic approached Zupljanin and that Zupljanin placed his hand

22     on his shoulder, and he said to the commander of the camp, "Had it not

23     been for this man I wouldn't be alive today."  Do you remember stating

24     that?

25        A.   Yes, I remember those words of Mr. Krivic very well.  He was on

Page 6266

 1     duty at the stable number 2.  And after the visit of Mr. Zupljanin to

 2     Manjaca, he told me that, and I knew Mirsad personally, the Mirsad you

 3     are mentioning now.  He was a policeman from Gradiska.

 4        Q.   What I'm trying to say is that Fahrudin Krivic told you that

 5     Mirsad Latic had told him about that conversation; right?

 6        A.   After Mr. Zupljanin left Manjaca, Mirsad told this to Krivic, and

 7     Krivic said this to me, because we could have regular contacts with

 8     people who were on duty in other stables because we had to communicate in

 9     order to coordinate lunch-hour.

10        Q.   Yes.  That's all I wanted to clarify.  I apologise for this.

11             I have a document here.  My colleague Mr. Zecevic asked you about

12     this.  It's a document about the activities and problem in the

13     functioning of the campaign entitled "Check-point 91."  Mr. Zecevic asked

14     you --

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And I don't know whether the

16     Prosecutor would object, but I would like this to be shown to the witness

17     so as to round off this topic.  This is 1D00-3437.  I know it's not on

18     the list but it stems from the question put by Mr. Zecevic.  So I would

19     like to explore this, and I would like to refresh his memory.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm really in Your Honours' hands here.  I don't

21     know this document but I see it has a translation, so -- oh, sorry.

22     Perhaps if I could inquire if it has a translation at this stage.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Do I understand it was a document that was put to

24     the witness yesterday by Mr. Zecevic?

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  Mr. Zecevic

Page 6267

 1     actually asked him today about this check-point operation and all the

 2     check-points in Kljuc at the time, and what I would like to show is a

 3     document that mentions this operation.  And that's why I want to show it

 4     to the document [as interpretation] although it was not originally on the

 5     list of documents that I had prepared with this witness.  Of course, if

 6     you would allow it, and if not I'm in your hands, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  As always, Mr. Krgovic, we are looking with

 8     excitement to anything coming from your side, but what exactly is the

 9     purpose of bringing up the matter of these check-points and the --

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the point is -- the

11     purpose is this:  As far as we understand the position of the

12     Prosecution, these check-points, or whatever we want to call them, were

13     put up by the Serbian side in order to establish control over the

14     territory in Kljuc municipality, and this was an operation at the

15     ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina level in order to defuse the tensions

16     and to try and return most of the areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

17     especially the border areas with Croatia, to return them to peace,

18     because war was going -- war was on at the time in Croatia.  And that is

19     the only reason why both the Prosecution and the Defence are dealing with

20     the check-points at length.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  In my recollection, I think Mr. Zecevic actually

22     covered this quite substantially, so I don't see a need for adding

23     anything further to that matter unless you have a new aspect that wasn't

24     raised by Mr. Zecevic this morning.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I just wanted to

Page 6268

 1     assist the witness and to confirm his testimony in this respect, but --

 2     if you agree, but if not, that would be it.  I've covered all my issues.

 3             So, Mr. Dzafic, thank you very much.  I have no further

 4     questions.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  Would Your Honours like me to start re-examination

 6     now or?  I see we're --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  How long do you expect you will be, Ms. Pidwell?

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  Fifteen to 20 minutes, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  You may as well begin.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] Ms. Pidwell, on

12     reflection, looking at the time --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE HALL:  -- the time in the LiveNote we have five minutes to

15     go.  Perhaps it would be advisable to take the break now.

16                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Before Ms. Pidwell begins her -- her re-examination,

19     my recollection is that -- and my understanding was that counsel for the

20     Defence, especially for Stanisic, was to have, in the course of their

21     cross-examination, tender the cross-examination in the Brdjanin trial for

22     this witness in the same manner as the 92 ter package was tendered by the

23     Prosecution.  Was that an oversight or do counsel intend to do it at a

24     later stage or what?  What's the position?

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, perhaps I can assist.  Mr. Zecevic

Page 6269

 1     had a plane to catch and has -- well, farewelled himself from me, in any

 2     event, before -- in the break, but in answer to your question, the

 3     cross-examination in the Brdjanin trial was submitted when I tendered the

 4     92 ter package at the beginning of the witness's testimony.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  So it's there already.  Thank you.  Thank you very

 6     much.

 7             Yes, Ms. Pidwell, you may begin your cross-examination.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

 9                           Re-examination by Ms. Pidwell:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Dzafic.  Can you hear me?

11        A.   Good afternoon to you, too, and, yes, I can hear you.

12        Q.   That's good.  Sir, I now have the opportunity just to ask you a

13     few questions which -- to clarify some issues which have arisen during

14     the course of this morning, and I -- I won't take long.

15             Firstly, sir, you were asked some questions at the beginning of

16     this morning by Mr. Zecevic, and I'm referring particularly to page 9 of

17     the transcript, about some -- about the log-books and daily events that

18     we talked about yesterday.  Do you recall that?

19        A.   Well, yesterday we discussed the duty log-book, and in addition

20     to that, Mr. Zecevic mentioned also the daily events log-book.

21        Q.   Yes.  Yes, that's correct.  And my question, sir, is the daily

22     events log-book, whose job was it to enter the -- the events of the day

23     into that book?

24        A.   The daily events log-book was the responsibility of the duty

25     officer, duty police officer, who would receive reports or complaints

Page 6270

 1     from citizens, and then -- or by telephone, and he would then enter them

 2     in the log-book.

 3        Q.   And was there ever an occasion when you or your superior,

 4     Vinko Kondic, entered entries into that daily log?

 5        A.   While I was still employed, I did not normally enter anything,

 6     any incidents in the daily log-book, nor was it within my competence, but

 7     from time to time I would review them to make sure that the events that

 8     were recorded had actually been followed through and completed.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And was it part of Vinko Kondic's role to also review

10     that log-book?

11        A.   As a matter of principle, no, although he was authorised, of

12     course.  He had the powers in case he needed to look into some specific

13     incident.  He could then look it up in the daily events log-book.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And you said that daily information reports were then

15     compiled from this -- this record of the daily events, and did these

16     daily reports have to be signed by Vinko Kondic or yourself before they

17     were submitted to the Banja Luka CSB?

18        A.   Generally speaking, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You were also asked this morning - and I'm referring

20     to page 14 of the transcript - about some contradictory orders from the

21     CSB Banja Luka and from Chief Kondic.

22             My question, sir, is:  Were you privy to meetings between Kondic

23     and the Banja Luka CSB in the early part of 1992, before you were

24     removed?

25        A.   No, I wasn't privy to them.  I wasn't privy to the meetings at

Page 6271

 1     the CSB chief's office and his meetings with the chiefs of the public

 2     security stations.

 3        Q.   And to your knowledge, did Vinko Kondic have a good relationship

 4     with his superiors in Banja Luka?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  How this question appear from my cross-examination?

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, Your Honours, the issue is whether there were

 7     contradictory orders from the Banja Luka CSB or from Vinko Kondic to this

 8     witness.  And my question is, what is the relationship between the two

 9     parties who were supposedly issuing these contradictory orders.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Sir, my question was:  Can you comment on the relationship

13     between Chief Vinko Kondic and his superiors in the CSB Banja Luka?

14        A.   As far as I can recall, in reply to some questions I said that

15     there were never any conflicting orders coming from the chief of the CSB

16     in Banja Luka or Chief Kondic.  The conflict -- the contradictions were

17     between the chief of the public security station and the orders coming

18     from the authorities in Sarajevo, from the Ministry of the Interior.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And could you now please comment on the

20     relationship between Chief Kondic and the CSB Banja Luka, if you're able

21     to.

22        A.   Well, I didn't attend those meetings, and I cannot really say

23     much about them.  I don't know what to tell you.

24        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you, sir.  You were also asked some questions

25     this morning - and I'm now referring to page 19 and 20 of the

Page 6272

 1     transcript - about your walk from the gym at Sitnica to Manjaca and about

 2     the -- the -- how far away it was.  Could you just tell the Tribunal,

 3     please, how long that walk took you.

 4        A.   As far as I can recall, we set off around 10.00 in the morning,

 5     or thereabout.  We were lined up at that time.  As I said, we were lined

 6     five in a row, and we started walking towards Manjaca.  We went -- we

 7     stopped briefly in two villages for about 15 minutes or so.  We were

 8     given some water to drink.  And then, if I still remember this well,

 9     around 5.00 in the afternoon we arrived at Manjaca.  Around 5.00 or

10     6.00 p.m., or thereabout.

11             Now, if we try and translate that into kilometres, I would say

12     that that would have been about 15 kilometres of -- of road that we

13     crossed from Sitnica to Manjaca, and this is just my estimate, rough

14     estimate.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You were also asked, later in the morning, about

16     the Red Berets when they came to Kljuc.  And I'm referring to pages 23

17     and 24 of the transcript.  And I want to now show you a photograph, sir,

18     and see if that assists you in -- to see whether you recognise the

19     uniforms and if you can comment on them in any way.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  And I'd like the witness to be shown P98, please.

21        Q.   Sir, are you able to see a photograph?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Are you able to comment on this photograph and assist us in any

24     way with the uniforms or the regiment or anything like that?  I know you

25     haven't seen this photograph before, so it may be difficult for you.  And

Page 6273

 1     if you can't say, that's fine.

 2        A.   I cannot really say anything about the unit itself.  I don't

 3     really know anything about that.  All I can say is that the group of ten

 4     or so men who were in Kljuc at the time wore the same type of uniform.

 5     They -- and also they had these red berets on their head.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Do you recall being asked some questions and

 7     being shown the statement of Omer Filipovic, that he made, and being

 8     asked about a statement like that being standard procedure for citizens

 9     or suspects who were arrested?

10        A.   Well, this was the first time that I saw the statement by Mr. --

11     by Mr. Omer.  The heading was -- that we saw on the statement was the

12     usual heading and standard procedure.  However, I question the contents

13     of the statement, how true it is and under what circumstances the

14     statement was given, because knowing the circumstances under which I gave

15     my statement and the way it was taken, under what kind of threat, I have

16     no faith whatsoever as to the truthfulness of this statement.  Not

17     5 per cent of it I believe is true.  So this is just on paper.

18        Q.   And, sir, the statement that you referred to that you made, was

19     it also in this form?

20        A.   The statement that I made at the elementary school building in

21     Kljuc and the statement that I made in Sitnica at the elementary school

22     building or at Manjaca, these statements were never shown to me.  I never

23     signed them, so I can't really comment on it.  I've never seen it -- I've

24     never seen them nor signed them, nor was I ever shown anything.

25        Q.   And, sir, did Omer Filipovic go in the same group as you to

Page 6274

 1     Manjaca?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, no.

 3        Q.   There's just one point I want to clarify at page 39 of the

 4     transcript.  Sir, you were asked a question by Mr. Krgovic, and the

 5     question reads:

 6             "And the event when the convoy in Busija was attacked, you

 7     learned of it one or two hours later from Dragan Tomic, squad commander."

 8             And then your answer was that you spent several days in Sanica

 9     before you went to Kljuc, and that you'd met up with the commander of the

10     police squad in Sanica.

11             I just want to clarify, sir, the name of the squad commander

12     you're referring to.

13        A.   If you allow me, I'd like to clarify something here.  On that day

14     when this incident occurred in Busija, close to Kljuc, on the main road

15     between Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac, I was in Sanica, and it was on that

16     very day that I intended to go back to Kljuc.  In Sanica, near a cafe, I

17     ran into a squad commander in Sanica, Milan Tomic.  His task was to

18     inspect all the cafes and order them to be shut down because of this

19     incident that occurred in Busija.  I asked him if one could get to Kljuc

20     and he said no, the road is blocked off until further notice.  So I

21     remained in Sanica.  I believe this was on the 27th of May, when all this

22     was happening.

23             I stayed in Sanica until the 1st because the road was blocked and

24     I couldn't return to Kljuc, but, rather, on the 31st, I think in the

25     morning, I was arrested in the house of one of my brothers where I was

Page 6275

 1     staying.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You were asked later on this morning by

 3     Mr. Krgovic about what you knew about the incident at Biljani, and you

 4     talked about how people had told you about that incident when you were at

 5     Manjaca.

 6        A.   Yes.  I was told about this at Manjaca.  People told me about it.

 7     And now looking at this order and seeing all the units that took part in

 8     this operation, it became much clearer to me, I mean, what was going on

 9     then and what happened there.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  My question is:  The people that you spoke to

11     about this incident who you say had survived this operation, were they --

12     what was their ethnicity?

13        A.   They were Muslims.  They were of Muslim ethnicity, Bosniaks.

14        Q.   And were they, to your knowledge, soldiers or civilians?

15        A.   As far as I know, they were all civilians.  They were detained,

16     arrested in the morning, taken from their homes and so on.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You were also asked some questions, sir, by

18     Mr. Krgovic, and I'm referring to page 51 of the transcript.  You were

19     shown some documents, some orders which referred to a white flag.  Do you

20     recall that?

21        A.   I do recall that, and I read those two documents that related to

22     the white flag.  As for me, all I knew -- all the information that I had

23     was that the white flag was raised if you were -- would mean that you had

24     surrendered and that you could move freely outside of your home or that

25     place, that village.

Page 6276

 1        Q.   To your knowledge, was there any other restriction on movement in

 2     Kljuc at this time?

 3        A.   Well, to my knowledge, the other active-duty policemen who

 4     remained in Kljuc and who hadn't been arrested and taken to Manjaca, they

 5     were told and ordered to stay in their homes.  Their movement was

 6     restricted.  It was prohibited.  And if necessary, I can tell you the

 7     names of those police officers.

 8        Q.   That's not necessary.  Thank you, sir.  But I'd ask you to look

 9     at a document, please.  It's 65 ter 2406.  You'll have to look at it on

10     the screen, sir, I think, because it won't be in the binder.

11             Are you familiar with the contents of that order, sir?

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  How is it related with my cross-examination,

13     Your Honour?  It's a document from the 5th of May, and even --

14             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honour --

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  -- in Kljuc.  Ask about what was happening in Kljuc

16     in that period of time.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, the questions are directly related to

18     the series of questions put by my learned friend about citizens being

19     restricted, their movement being restricted in Kljuc at the time.  He put

20     questions about orders that they had to raise a white flag in order to

21     move freely around the town, and this stems from this, that there were

22     other restrictions as well in the area.

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  In combat operation zone.  It's not restriction.

24     My question was related to the warning issued by command of the town.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, aren't you going beyond where

Page 6277

 1     Mr. Krgovic went in his cross-examination.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  With respect, sir, I don't think Mr. Krgovic

 3     limited his questions to combat zones.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  But in any event, the result would be that you're

 5     opening new ground with this witness, isn't it?  And does it -- at the

 6     end of the day, what turns on it?

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, sir, the -- the series of questions from the

 8     Defence were that citizens who wanted to move around were able to by

 9     raising this white flag, and there was a military order to that effect.

10     The series of questions that preceded these documents didn't restrict

11     that to a combat zone.  This witness was in the area at the time, and

12     there was an order restricting the movement of citizens as well at that

13     time, and that's, in my submission, enough proximity to be able to put

14     this to the witness at this stage in re-examination.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pidwell.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, sir.

18        Q.   Sir, my question was:  Are you familiar with the -- the terms of

19     this order dated 5 May 1992?

20        A.   I cannot see.  I cannot read the order.  I don't see it.

21        Q.   Perhaps I can read it to you, sir, and the interpreters can

22     interpret it.  It's an order dated the 5 May 1992, and it reads:

23             "Pursuant to the decision by the government of the Autonomous

24     Region of Krajina, the president of the Council for Territorial Defence

25     of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly issued the following order:

Page 6278

 1             "1.  All organs of social communities, economic and other

 2     organisations shall immediately begin work under wartime organisation.

 3             "2.  The entire territory of the Municipal Assembly shall be

 4     placed under curfew between the hours of 2200 and 0500, except the

 5     persons with official authorisation from the police, military police, or

 6     Serbian territorial army.

 7             "3.  This order shall enter into force immediately."

 8             And it's signed by Jovo Banjac, president of the Council for

 9     National Defence.

10        A.   I'm not familiar with this order, and I didn't see it but I know

11     and I recall it vividly that there was a curfew imposed at this time as

12     mentioned under item 2.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  I wonder if I can seek to tender that as an exhibit

15     at this stage.  I appreciate the difficulties, Your Honour.  The witness

16     doesn't know the order was -- well, he was present at the time the order

17     was made and knows that it existed.  Of course he's not privy to the

18     document itself or the order itself.  I'm in your hands.

19             JUDGE HALL:  What he has said is that he is familiar with the

20     fact that there was a curfew.  Do you need more than that?  I don't see

21     how this can be tendered through him.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, if it can be MFI'd at this stage.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Pending?  Pending what?

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Pending a further witness.

25             JUDGE HALL:  I suppose so.

Page 6279

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document P979, marked for identification.  The

 2     exhibit number is P979, marked for identification, and the 65 ter, 2406.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:

 5        Q.   And I just have one final topic to cover with you, sir.  You were

 6     asked some questions - and I'm now referring to line 54 of the

 7     transcript - about a person by the name of Dusko Milicevic.  Do you

 8     recall that?

 9        A.   Yes, I remember that gentleman very well, because we studied

10     together at the Faculty of Political Science in Zagreb.  In addition to

11     that, I remember him from before 1991 or 1992.  He was a member of the

12     municipal secretariat in Banja Luka where he was an inspector in charge

13     of thefts.  He occasionally came to Kljuc to help.  That usually happened

14     on Saturdays because Saturday is the market day in Kljuc, when there were

15     some incidents of pick-pocketing, because the citizens who came to the

16     market were targeted by the pick-pockets.

17        Q.   My question, sir, is, you have said in evidence that he was a

18     police inspector from Banja Luka, and you've also said that he had the

19     rank of a captain or lieutenant and wore a military uniform.  Do you know

20     whether he was part of the MUP or whether he was part of the military?

21        A.   Look, I said when I knew him before the date when I was arrested,

22     that is to say, taken prisoner and brought to the primary school in

23     Kljuc, before that he was discharging the duties which I just described,

24     and at that time I saw him in a military uniform with the rank captain, I

25     think.  It was rather captain than lieutenant, but I'm not 100 per cent

Page 6280

 1     certain about that.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions for you, and I thank

 3     you for giving your evidence today, and Their Honours will shortly

 4     address you and excuse you from testifying -- or excuse you from court

 5     today.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  We thank you, sir, for coming to testify.  You're

 8     now released as a witness.  We are especially mindful of the -- your

 9     experiences and we are grateful for your willingness to relive this

10     unfortunate part of your life to come and testify and assist the

11     Tribunal.  Thank you, sir, and we wish you a safe journey back to your

12     place of residence.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

14                      [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

15             JUDGE HALL:  The court upon its rising will, as the counsel would

16     recall, resume on the 15th of February.  And according to the court

17     calendar, which of course is always subject to change, we will resume in

18     this courtroom at 2.15, on the afternoon of Monday, the 15th of February.

19     Thank you.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.58 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

22                           February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.