Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7727

 1                           Thursday, 18 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             Good morning to everyone.

 9             May we have the appearances for today, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner assisted

11     by Crispian Smith, Case Manager, for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Tatjana Savic appearing for

14     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

16     Miroslav Cuskic for Zupljanin Defence.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             Would the Usher please -- sorry.  Yes, Ms. Korner.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, may I just mention before the witness

20     is brought in, the question of an exercise, which, unfortunately is going

21     take a little time.  And can I explain to Your Honours what I -- spent

22     some time myself yesterday looking at.

23             Your Honours will recall that there were some questions that I

24     put to Mr. Tutus about the reports that he had put in against the special

25     police members.  Then the document in 1993, the letter, which in fact

Page 7728

 1     encapsulates most, if not all, of those reports, and a list of the

 2     payroll for special police in August, plus a full list obviously compiled

 3     later but attached to the same document of the special police.

 4             Now, although Mr. Tutus had during the course of looking at the

 5     documents actually identified two people who he said were still there

 6     when he put in criminal reports, he didn't do that in court.  And at that

 7     stage I hadn't gone through the exercise which I did yesterday.

 8     Mr. Krgovic equally objected to what I was saying.

 9             So I have done the exercise.

10             Your Honour, can I put it this way, and I can demonstrate this to

11     Your Honours and with the witness.  With -- with one exception, the --

12     the names against whom he put in complaints of criminal conduct in

13     June and July of 1992, appear on the payroll for August 1992, and in the

14     list of the full list of the special police, or -- whether it is full or

15     not, but it's a later list, those names appear again with what actually

16     seems to have happened to them.

17             In respect of the incident that -- as it were, seems to have

18     prompted this long report in 1993, which took place in this -- in -- I've

19     forgotten the name of the place it is.  Karanovac.  None of the -- the

20     earlier people appear except as members in the community and not actually

21     specifically alleged to have committed the offence, but they appear as

22     members of the special -- ex-special Banja Luka special police who live

23     in the community where the complaints have come.

24             Now, Your Honour, can I do that all with the witness but it means

25     going through a number of documents.  And that will take clearly more

Page 7729

 1     time than have I left.  But -- obviously, I leave this in the hands of

 2     Your Honours.  I can do this exercise using a couple of examples or I can

 3     do it in full, or I cannot do with the witness at all and simply show

 4     Your Honours.

 5             So that's why I'm raising it at this stage before I begin my --

 6     my further examination-in-chief.

 7             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  If I may ask -- before we rule, if I may -- to aid

10     my own understanding.

11             We're talking about documents, the contents of which speak for

12     themselves.

13             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

14             JUDGE HALL:  And what we're looking at is a method of isolating

15     from these documents that overlap the period of the indictment such of

16     the -- in terms of names particularly, as are specific -- well, as are

17     relevant for our purposes.

18             MS. KORNER:  The exercise -- the whole point of this line of

19     questioning and the exercise I'd done, Your Honour, is to demonstrate if

20     necessary to the witness, although we would say that he clearly knows

21     about that, however reluctant he is, that despite in some cases actual

22     criminal reports and in other cases we don't have criminal reports but

23     Official Notes, all of which are listed in his 1993 report, it would

24     appear, on the face of the documents, that no action was taken to remove

25     these people from the special police.  Certainly not by August.  And if

Page 7730

 1     one looks at the document which is attached to it, one can see, which is

 2     obviously a later document, 1993, that most of these people, as I say,

 3     with one exception which is an interesting -- went on working in the

 4     special police and went on to other jobs when it was disbanded.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  All the documents to which you have referred,

 6     Ms. Korner, have been admitted into evidence; is that correct.

 7             MS. KORNER:  They have.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  Thanks.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Absolutely.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  If I may say something.

11             [Interpretation] Your Honours, in my cross-examination I will

12     deal precisely with these matters raised by the Prosecutor, so if the

13     document is self-explanatory, as far as the Defence position is

14     concerned, I do not mind if the Prosecutor wants to go through the

15     document with the witness, using a few examples.

16             But, of course, I will deal with it in cross-examination, of

17     course, trying to prove the opposite.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, it seems to us that if you simply

21     proceed in the ordinary manner, to elicit the foundation of evidence from

22     the witness, then we should be -- the matter should resolve itself.

23     We'll see how it goes.  Because the -- what Mr. Krgovic has indicated

24     seems to be a helpful and practical method of solving the problem.  But

25     the exercise is to get the evidence on the record from the witness who is

Page 7731

 1     on the stand to explain the -- what happened in respect of these persons

 2     against whom complaints were made.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour --

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before you answer.  We are of the view that can

 5     you use just a few examples.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And then put the question to him of how he

 8     interprets the fact that they were still in service in August, and that's

 9     what we need.

10             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, well, that's helpful.  I will pick a

11     couple of examples, then, and deal with it.

12             Your Honours, I -- I'm sorry.  Because it is a -- because of

13     having to have the documents up, although we copied them in hard copy for

14     him so can he deal with it quicker, and I have three -- three more

15     documents which I need to put to this witness.

16             It's going to take longer than, I think, the ten minutes or so I

17     have left.  That's all I'm asking, at this stage.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Well, let's start.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, Mr. Tutus.

22             Before Ms. Korner resumes her examination-in-chief, I remind you

23     you're still on your oath.

24                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR TUTUS [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 7732

 1                           Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

 2        Q.   Mr. Tutus, I want you, please, to have a look at a document which

 3     is -- it's already an exhibit, P685.

 4             This is an document dated the 9th of October, 1992, addressed to

 5     all SJBs.  It's a dispatch again, and it's got Stojan Zupljanin's

 6     signature, passing on a memorandum from the Main Staff of the Army of the

 7     Republika Srpska saying that:

 8             "The Presidency has no information on crimes committed against

 9     the Serbian people in the zone of responsibility of the

10     1st Krajina Corps ..."

11             Do you remember getting this document?

12        A.   I believe I did, but I can't remember it.

13        Q.   And all I want to ask you about is this:  The zone of

14     responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps, was that, although not entirely

15     completely, the area that covered Banja Luka and other municipalities,

16     such as Sanski Most, Kotor Varos, and the like?

17        A.   I believe so.  I don't know if that's the entire area; but,

18     generally speaking, yes.

19        Q.   No, I agree.  I mean, that there's more.  Thank you very much.

20     That's all I want to ask you about that document.

21             Could you look now, please, at document 65 ter 75.  I'm sorry,

22     it's going back to April.

23             MS. KORNER:  Could we just look at the -- the -- it's the third

24     page, because of the way it's been copied, for some reason, in B/C/S, and

25     the second page in English.

Page 7733

 1        Q.   Again, is this a report sent both to the CSB and the Ministry of

 2     the Interior signed by your chief of the crime section, Zoran Josic?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Well, I don't need to ask you anything more about the

 5     contents.  I just need to --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 7     please.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1093, Your Honours.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Next could you look, please, at a document marked 664,

12     65 ter 664.

13             MS. KORNER:  I think we need to look at the second page -- well,

14     let's stick to the first page for the moment.

15        Q.   This is a dispatch of the 18th of September addressed to SJBs, to

16     the MUP for information, and to the 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, and to

17     leaders of all organisationals -- of organisational units.

18             Can you go -- can we go to the second page, please, in each.

19     Yeah, and we can see again that it goes under the name of

20     Stojan Zupljanin.

21             Then -- I think this is -- stay on the second page in B/C/S and I

22     think it's the last paragraph, but need to go back to the first page in

23     English, the last paragraph on -- in the English page.  And I think it's

24     the last paragraph also in the B/C/S.  It says:

25             "... we draw the attention of SJB chiefs" -- "to the attention of

Page 7734

 1     SJB chiefs the fact that members of the active and reserve police forces

 2     may be engaged in combat activities according to the principle of

 3     resubordination to a superior army command only in the event that combat

 4     activities are taking place on the territory covered by the designated

 5     SJBs and with the approval of the chief ..."

 6             This document was in September, Mr. Tutus.  Do you know why

 7     Mr. Zupljanin was reminding SJB chiefs of this?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   But it is a document you would have got?

10        A.   I certainly did.

11             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

12     please.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1094, Your Honours.

15             MS. KORNER:  And could you now go, please, to a document which is

16     already exhibited, P782.

17        Q.   Is that a document signed by you with a stamp on it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   It is dated the 24th of November.  And it says:

20             "The following confiscated weapons are stored at this SJB," and

21     you then give a list.

22             Is that a list of all the weapons you confiscated and kept from

23     April 1992 or only from November?

24        A.   I would first have to see the dispatch sent by the centre, the

25     reference number indicated here, and these are only weapons confiscated

Page 7735

 1     under -- on the grounds indicated in items 1, 2, and 3.  Administrative

 2     proceedings and criminal proceedings.  If a crime is involved, the weapon

 3     is confiscated as evidence.

 4        Q.   Yes.  All I'm asking what is the administrative procedure?

 5     That's what you described that you were doing for disarmament, is it?

 6             You remember we discussed the day before yesterday the disarming

 7     of the population in compliance with the directive issued by the

 8     Autonomous Region of Krajina, Assembly or Crisis Staff, and I'm -- just

 9     want to know whether administrative procedure refers to that.

10        A.   Well, I'm not sure that's what it means.  There were some weapons

11     confiscated without any proceedings going on, so I don't know if such

12     weapons are included in any of the three categories.  I don't think they

13     are.

14        Q.   If you were confiscating illegal weapons during this period,

15     would you launch a criminal proceedings against the person in possession?

16     In other words, put in a criminal report.

17        A.   If there were elements of criminal liability we would certainly

18     file a criminal report.  However, if it concerned a member of the VRS who

19     legally owned a weapon, as a member of the unit, and then illegally left

20     the unit together with a weapon, and then the army put out a bulletin,

21     because he was a deserter and thus illegally owned a weapon, or failed to

22     respond to mobilisation, then he was liable under the Law on

23     Territorial Defence, we would confiscated such a weapon.  But that was

24     the responsibility of military organs, and in such cases, we did not

25     start any proceedings or file reports.

Page 7736

 1        Q.   Yes, but -- I'm asking at the moment about the procedure you

 2     described whereby you were searching people's houses for illegal weapons.

 3     And leave aside for the moment lawfully owned hunting rifles.

 4             If you confiscated what you thought were illegal weapons, would

 5     you put in a criminal report?

 6        A.   I want to say the following.  We didn't go from house to house at

 7     random and search them.  We sought weapons on the basis of indicia,

 8     evidence.  You couldn't just enter someone's house if there was no

 9     evidence that there were weapons illegally held there.  And secondly, I

10     tried to explain that when you seize military weapons, well, I wasn't

11     referring to weapons owned by citizens legally.  It concerned military

12     weapons legally given to them previously, but the security organs

13     illegally had them because they didn't respond to the mobilisation

14     call-up.

15             I don't know if this answer is satisfactory or not.

16        Q.   No.  Can I ask the question again.

17             You told us the day before yesterday that you carried out, on the

18     basis of information, searches of people's houses to see whether they

19     possessed illegal weapons.  That is to say, no permit and a weapon that

20     they had unlawfully.

21             Would you then file a criminal report against the person who was

22     in such possession?  Very simple question.

23        A.   If it was a military weapon, then the military organs were

24     responsible.

25        Q.   Yes, but even if it was a military weapon, you still had to file

Page 7737

 1     a report, didn't you, and it was then a question for the prosecutor to

 2     decide whether it went to the military court or stayed in the civil

 3     court.

 4             Now, please, answer the question:  Did you file criminal reports

 5     against persons in possession of illegal weapons.

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, we did.  But in some cases, the army did that too.

 7        Q.   Well, I'm talking about cases -- make this quite clear.  I'm

 8     talking about cases where members of your police conducted a search and

 9     discovered that they -- what they believed to be an illegal weapon in

10     possession of a civilian, or someone who wasn't in the military, or the

11     police.  Would you then file a criminal report?

12        A.   Well, most frequently, yes.  I don't see why we wouldn't do that.

13        Q.   You may not see -- all right.  I think --

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tutus, did you or did you not file reports in

15     such events?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, we did.  But I cannot

17     now claim that in some cases that were the responsibility of the military

18     security organs and the military and judiciary, I can't say that we

19     didn't refer the case to them, and as a result, we didn't file a criminal

20     report.  That's what I'm saying.  In cases where we believed that it was

21     our responsibility to file a criminal report, we did so.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   Yes.  It wasn't your decision, was it, as a police officer, to

25     which court a case went?  You filed a criminal report and it was the

Page 7738

 1     decision of the prosecutor, was it not?

 2        A.   The crime police did this.  They would assess whether something

 3     was the responsibility of the military organs or the civil organs.  But

 4     there were cases in which we had a report from the civilian prosecutor

 5     and he would then refer it to the military prosecutor.  Or, rather, we

 6     would refer a case to the civilian prosecutor and the civilian prosecutor

 7     would then refer it to the military prosecutor.  There were such cases.

 8        Q.   Now, and can we just make -- can you just confirm whether this is

 9     correct, that the Official Notes that we looked at about the activities

10     of the special police are not the same as criminal reports?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   In respect of some of the reports we looked at, and, in

13     particular, perhaps we can look at the one -- the first of these reports

14     against the special police.

15             MS. KORNER:  Could we have a look, please, at ...

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, you say "report."  Is it criminal

17     report you mean or is it Official Note?

18             MS. KORNER:  A difference between -- did I not say "criminal

19     report"?  I thought I did.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You say "report."

21             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I -- sorry, no.  Now I'm getting my -- yes, a

22     document.  It's not a report.  It's not a criminal report, this one.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's an Official Note.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 7739

 1             MS. KORNER:  It's the one, in fact, that Judge Harhoff remarked

 2     on yesterday and I ... okay, it's tab 19.  Tab 19.  What number is that?

 3             P1081.  Thank you.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   While that is being sought, put up on the screen, Mr. Tutus, did

 7     you have daily meetings with the chief of the crime police?

 8        A.   Yes.  That was obligatory, and we also had meetings with the

 9     police station commander almost on a daily basis, together with this

10     person.

11        Q.   Right.  And wouldn't he then fill you in about arrests that had

12     been made for illegal possession of weapons?

13        A.   He would fill us in with regard to more serious matters.

14        Q.   All right.  Now we've got this document up again on the screen.

15     4th of June, which on the first we looked at, which is not -- this is not

16     a criminal report, is it?

17        A.   The document in front of me.  Is that it?

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   It has to do with a dispatch in which we informed the MUP of the

20     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and CSB about certain events.

21        Q.   Yes.  What I want to know is, why, on the 4th of June, and we've

22     seen it with other such documents, you're sending it not only to the CSB

23     chief but also to the Ministry of the Interior?  Because this is not a

24     result -- you don't refer to any requests from the minister of the --

25     Ministry of the Interior.  This is your decision to send it also to

Page 7740

 1     the -- the -- the Ministry of Interior.

 2             Why was that?

 3        A.   Because I thought that it was a serious case and that it was

 4     necessary for the Ministry of the Interior to be informed of it.  That's

 5     probably the reason.

 6        Q.   Because you only had the duty, didn't you, to report to the head

 7     of the -- the chief of the CSB?

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  Objection.  Leading.

 9             MS. KORNER:  I'll rephrase the question.

10        Q.   To whom was it your duty to report?

11        A.   To the CSB and the MUP of the Republic of Serbia [as

12     interpreted], in accordance with the instructions that had been issued.

13        Q.   And which instructions are you referring to?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  On mutual information, the instructions on

15     mutual information.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That document was in force before

17     the war in the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It

18     was signed by the former Secretariat for Internal Affairs, and the

19     document is called Instructions on Mutual, Current and Temporary

20     Information, or instruction.  It told us when we had to inform the MUP

21     and the CSB about certain events.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Just a correction for

23     the transcript.  Page 13, line 14 -- line 6 and 7, the Republika Srpska

24     is concerned, not the Republic of Serbia.

25             MS. KORNER:  All right.

Page 7741

 1        Q.   Before I do what I'm afraid is going to be a rather boring

 2     exercise, can I just ask you finally this on -- on Banja Luka.

 3             During the course of 1992, whether a number of international

 4     organisations which were either visiting in or had a base in Banja Luka?

 5        A.   Yes, they had their base in Banja Luka and they would go to

 6     Banja Luka, to visit.

 7        Q.   The -- what was then called the European Community Monitoring

 8     Mission, was that in Banja Luka?

 9        A.   If those are the people in white uniforms, then I believe that,

10     yes, they did visit.  I think those are the people concerned.

11        Q.   Yes.  The UN High Commission for Refugees was that also -- did

12     that also have a base and people from that organisation visiting

13     Banja Luka?

14        A.   I remember a visit by Mrs. Rehn, Ole [sic] Rehn, I think that's

15     the name.  She would visit.  She saw President Radic, and I was present

16     too.

17        Q.   In addition to that, did you receive a number of visits from

18     international journalists?

19        A.   I didn't have the opportunity of speaking to international

20     journalists.  I don't remember that.  But there were frequent meetings

21     with President Radic.  Foreign representatives would have meetings with

22     him, but as to whether there were journalists among them, I don't know.

23        Q.   All right.  Can we now finally and please do this rather boring

24     exercise, or a few examples.

25             Yesterday, day before yesterday, we looked at your -- sometimes

Page 7742

 1     criminal reports, sometimes information reports about the behaviour of

 2     members of the special police unit, largely in June and July.

 3             Now, I'm going give you, because I think it may be easier for you

 4     although we will bring it up on the screen as well, copies of, first of

 5     all, the document which was your information in 1993, which is

 6     Exhibit P628, and also a copy of the list, the payroll for August 1992

 7     for the special police and a further, obviously later list which appears

 8     to the full list of -- of the special police, which is document 1092.

 9             Can you have them in -- we'll give them to you so it is easier

10     for you to follow this.  But we will have to have it up on the screen for

11     the rest.

12             MS. KORNER:  What we have done, Your Honours, and hopefully this

13     will make it easier, in Sanction we've got both documents up.  I don't

14     know how people -- oh, I see -- yes, in English.  We obviously can't do

15     this exercise side by side in B/C/S.

16        Q.   Can we -- you start off this information, if you go to the second

17     page there, and if we go to the second page on -- yeah, thank you very

18     much, with this complaint that has come in 1993 from the Karanovac

19     community.  And then you explain that you have had negative experiences

20     with members of the Banja Luka Security Services Centre special purposes.

21             MS. KORNER:  Now can we go, then, please, in the English to page

22     3 of that document.  And in the --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner.

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  The accused cannot follow the transcript.

25             MS. KORNER:  Well, there's no way of doing this, as I say -- I'm

Page 7743

 1     sure that you have got hard copies in -- in -- in -- with you and if they

 2     can be given to the accused.  We can't -- there's no way of doing this so

 3     that everybody can follow with four separate documents on the screen.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just in principle, it's -- this -- these accused

 5     are on trial, so ... at least they should be able to -- to follow the

 6     evidence.  Thank you.

 7             MS. KORNER:  The only thing that is going to be followed is the

 8     names and the names are the same in English.  So I hope that they can

 9     just look at the screen and see the names.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the problem is that

11     these lists have certain comments on them.  There are certain notes made

12     on these lists and that is what is important in this particular case.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             We're advised that the documents may be printed out in B/C/S for

16     the benefit of the accused within a couple of minutes.

17             So while that's being done, I suppose Ms. Korner can continue,

18     and the accused will catch up.  Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Zecevic, that shouldn't

19     be a problem, should it?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, and I appreciate the help

21     of the Registry as well.

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   In paragraph 3 of this 1993 report there is a complaint relating

24     to the 2nd of June, 1992, of a beating and the man in question is said to

25     be Mr. Kajkut, who presumably is a relation of the Kajkut we talked

Page 7744

 1     about -- well, he may not be.  The name's obviously quite similar, but

 2     anyhow.  Member of the Banja Luka special police services detachment.

 3             If you look then at number 10 on the payroll for August 1992,

 4     there is Mr. Kajkut.  Although it appears his money was collected by

 5     somebody else with the same name.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in the original B/C/S, there are

 7     signatures by each of these ...

 8        Q.   Do you agree?

 9        A.   Well, on the basis of the name and surname, it could be the same

10     person.  But to identify him we need the other details.  The date of

11     birth, father's name, and so on and so forth.  Everything is possible,

12     you know.  Perhaps there are several individuals with the same name, but

13     this seems to show that the same person is concerned.

14        Q.   Did you put in a criminal report about this incident?  Because

15     you don't refer to it in this summary; whereas, we'll see later you do

16     refer to criminal reports in other cases.

17        A.   I can't remember individual reports.  I don't know how this

18     ended.  We probably did.  There was no reason not to do so.

19        Q.   Well, because -- would you describe this as a serious incident,

20     beating somebody?

21        A.   Well, it's unlawful behaviour.  As to how serious it is, well,

22     there were more serious incidents.

23        Q.   And if we ... if you go on in that second document, please, to

24     the list of the special police detachment, the alphabetical one, you go

25     to number 116, you'll see there that he's a candidate for some course.

Page 7745

 1        A.   That's what it says.

 2        Q.   Yeah.  Now, you make no reference to either any criminal

 3     proceedings that were taken against him or, indeed, disciplinary

 4     proceedings.  Would you have expected, first, that criminal proceedings

 5     would have been taken in this case?

 6        A.   Given what it says under -- are you referring to what it says

 7     under item 3, information?

 8        Q.   I am.  I am.

 9        A.   Well, I think criminal proceedings should have been instituted if

10     there was sufficient information, and this seems to show there was

11     sufficient information.

12        Q.   What about disciplinary, if nothing else?

13        A.   Yes, by all means.

14        Q.   Would you retain as a member of your police force, in the SJB, a

15     person who had committed this kind of crime?

16        A.   I didn't say he committed a crime.  I would have checked

17     everything and tried to establish the truth on the basis of the relevant

18     procedure.

19        Q.   Yes -- no, if it was shown whether, for the purposes of -- of --

20     of criminal prosecution or disciplinary, that this man had done what is

21     said he did there, would have you kept him in your police force?

22        A.   If it had been confirmed that this was correct, I wouldn't

23     [Realtime transcript read in error "would"] have kept him.  But as far as

24     I know, he never completed a course of any kind.

25        Q.   How do you know?  Do you know this man?

Page 7746

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Well, then, was there a criminal proceedings against him?

 3        A.   Well, I can't remember exactly now.  But I think so.

 4        Q.   The work --

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm so sorry to interrupt 19, 12, 13, page 19,

 6     line 12 and 13.  I believe the witness said, "I would not have -- I would

 7     not have kept him."  And it's recorded as he would have kept him.

 8             I'm sorry, Ms. Korner.  I don't want to interrupt.

 9             MS. KORNER:  That's fine.  Thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic.

10        Q.   But he still stayed in the special police?

11             MR. KRGOVIC:  Objection.  Leading.  It does not appear from the

12     list.

13             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, in August of 1992 he is on the payroll.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the documents -- and

15     the Prosecution knows that the unit was disbanded on the 10th of August,

16     and that an agreement was reached.  The witness will appear who will talk

17     about this.  It was agreed that all members should receive their salaries

18     for August although they weren't in fact members of the special police in

19     August.  That is the point of my objection.  The Prosecution is aware of

20     that fact because there's a series of documents that demonstrate this.

21     So this is the reason for my objection.  The witness is being led.

22             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Up until, and I accept entirely that the

23     order disbanding them came in the 10th of August, up until the 10th of

24     August, if this payroll is accurate, accept all that, it shows that this

25     gentleman was still in the special police for the rest of June,

Page 7747

 1     presumably, July, and August.

 2             Doesn't it?

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Are you asking me that question?

 4             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I am.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution refrain from

 6     asking leading questions.  What can the witness see on the basis of this

 7     document.  That's what he should be asked.  He shouldn't be led.  That's

 8     the purpose of my objection.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  I haven't ruled on Mr. Krgovic's -- formally ruled

10     on Mr. Krgovic's initial objection which he has refined, because the --

11     one of the difficulties that I'm still thinking my way through,

12     Ms. Korner, and Mr. Krgovic, is that the question, on the face of it,

13     seems permissible notwithstanding that the Prosecution is asking of its

14     own witness a conclusion drawn from the document.  But I -- but --

15     whereas technically, I suppose, it is leading, the -- it is necessary, in

16     my view, to elicit from the witness the -- his impression, for want of a

17     better word, of the accuracy of the normal inference that could be drawn

18     from the presence of the -- these names on the -- on -- on the payroll

19     sheet at the relevant moment.

20             So I'll permit Ms. Korner to go ahead.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   Mr. Tutus, I am asking you, on the face of these documents does

23     it appear to you as an experienced police officer that, notwithstanding

24     this complaint, this gentleman remained in the special police until it

25     was wound up in August?

Page 7748

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Well, let's look at another one, shall we, as an example.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, at -- yes.  It's paragraph 16

 4     of this long report in 1993.

 5        Q.   And these are the people who actually appeared on the separate

 6     information sheets that we saw.

 7             Let's take -- can I say that it is our contention that

 8     Mr. Cvetko Makivic stayed through but perhaps it's not -- he was driving

 9     maybe in a stolen vehicle and behaved impudently.

10             But let's have a look at Mr. Gojko Racic.  On the 20th of June,

11     and, again, this was a subject of a separate report, he threatened an

12     armed attack on the centre.  I think you may remember this.  He went in

13     and waved his pistol.

14             So if we look now, please, at the payroll again.  Oh, it's the

15     first page of the other document, number 10 -- sorry, number 14.  There

16     he is.  Unless it's -- accepting entirely that there are two people, same

17     name, in the special police, signing for his pay.

18             MS. KORNER:  And if you go then on in the long alphabetical list

19     to 197, although -- I'm sorry, I've got the wrong one.  That's Radic --

20     sorry.  It's -- I'm not quite sure about that one.  Because I think the

21     names -- unless I can't read the ...

22             I cannot read the -- obviously the Cyrillic so ... oh, yes, 190.

23     Sorry.  Thank you.

24        Q.   He apparently got wounded at some stage.

25        A.   It's written here that he was wounded and became disabled.

Page 7749

 1        Q.   Again, would you expect it that the man who came in to the Centar

 2     police station, under your command, would be allowed to remain in the

 3     special police, if nothing else?

 4        A.   If this document is correct, and if these reports are correct,

 5     and if he, indeed, behaved in this way, then he -- there should have been

 6     no place for him in the organs of internal affairs.  But that's a matter

 7     for the disciplinary court and the prosecutor.  Reports should have been

 8     investigated and then he should have been prosecuted, if necessary.

 9        Q.   You see, again, you don't refer to any number of any criminal

10     report you put in, under this paragraph.  So did you put in a -- or did

11     your chief of crime police put in a crime report against this?

12        A.   I don't know that.  I think this is the product of some

13     Official Note or maybe a report by the operative duty officer.  I -- I

14     see from this that he also behaved himself inappropriately in the centre.

15             What I mean is I don't know what the outcome was.  Did we file it

16     to the CSB, and how that was processed, I don't know.

17        Q.   All right.  Can we very quickly --

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tutus, can I ask you a question in this

19     respect.

20             If a member of your special police force had been involved in

21     some serious criminal activity, such as the example we have seen here

22     with Mr. Racic, and if that would imply that he would be released from

23     duty, at what moment would he then be released?  Would that be by the

24     time a criminal report was filed to the prosecutor, or would it be

25     immediately after the incident, or would it not be until the moment when

Page 7750

 1     he had finally been convicted, if, let's assume, that he was convicted.

 2             So at which time would you dismiss your police officer?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, we would have to know

 4     if Gojko Racic was a member of the reserve force of the special

 5     detachment of the CSB Banja Luka or an active duty officer employed full

 6     time.  If he was in the reserve, then the procedure would be short.  He

 7     could be taken off the schedule and placed at the disposal of the VRS.

 8     However, if he was full-time employee --

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right away?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, if he was a reserve member, he

11     could taken off the roster immediately.  He would be stripped of his

12     weapons and placed at the disposal of the army.

13             However, if he was an employee, then disciplinary proceedings

14     would have to be taken, and then the prosecutor would have to decide in

15     an initiative that -- with the chief of the centre.  This proposal by the

16     prosecutor would go before the disciplinary court which would decide on

17     the measures to be taken.  That procedure is not so short.

18             He could also be temporarily suspended pending the completion of

19     disciplinary proceedings.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   And if you'd had a police officer in your command who had gone

23     into one of your stations and waved a gun, would you have suspended him,

24     pending the proceedings?

25        A.   I would do precisely as I explained to the Judge.  If he was a

Page 7751

 1     reserve member, I would take him -- I would remove him immediately.  If

 2     he was an employee, I would initiate proceedings.

 3        Q.   Yes.  And the question I asked was:  If he was an employee, and

 4     you initiated proceedings, would you suspend him, pending the outcome of

 5     those proceedings?

 6        A.   Well, in our proposal to initiate disciplinary proceedings to the

 7     chief of the centre we would include a proposal for temporary suspension.

 8     If everything was confirmed, we would also ask for a temporary sanction.

 9        Q.   Can we very quickly -- and then I'll do one more after this --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Excuse me, Mrs. Korner, one more question.

11             Mr. Tutus, if a full-time employee was temporarily suspended

12     pending procedures, would he still be paid?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember our regulations well

14     he would be receiving 50 per cent of the pay.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Thank you.

16             MS. KORNER:  Can we look at, please, the next paragraph, 18,

17     Mr.   Marinko Marincic, who was -- again, we saw the report.  He is

18     stealing petrol.

19        Q.   Again, it doesn't refer to any criminal report being filed.  If

20     we look on this occasion, it does not appear in the payroll for August.

21     But if we go to the list, the alphabetical list, and we go to 135, he is

22     the only one of the ones that we're going to go through who was actually

23     relieved of duty in June, for stealing petrol.  Well, we don't know why

24     he was -- but the only allegation that we see made against him is that

25     this was stealing petrol.  Do you agree?

Page 7752

 1        A.   I haven't yet identified which number it is in this report.

 2        Q.   I'm sorry.  Number -- paragraph --

 3        A.   Did you say 11?

 4        Q.   paragraph 18 of your 1993 report.

 5        A.   Could you repeat the question now.

 6        Q.   Mr.  Marinko Marincic, who we saw the full information report

 7     before, he and some other people were caught decanting fuel.  And if you

 8     look at him, he does not appear in the August payroll.  Yes, I made a

 9     mistake.  And, indeed, it shows that he was relieved of duty.

10             Is that right?

11        A.   You're right, as far as this report is concerned.  But whether he

12     was relieved of duty and why, I don't know.  This report also says he

13     fled the scene and prevented us from collecting and seizing evidence.

14     And we probably filed this in a report to the CSB, because, according to

15     preliminary information, these persons were members of the special

16     detachment.

17        Q.   Yes.  Now, finally, those four people who were taken out of the

18     prison in July.  The whole incident is referred to in your report, I

19     think ... yes.  If we look at paragraph 22, the -- the long list of

20     crimes as set out there.  And these are -- do you agree, we looked at all

21     the documents around this.  These are the people who you wouldn't release

22     but were then taken out of Tunjice prison effectively by force?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   If we look, please, at the payroll for August, number 54, is

25     Mr. Dragojevic.  Number 45 is Mr. Jokic.

Page 7753

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   Yes.  All right.  And very quickly then, and that's the last

 3     matter I'm going ask you, if you look at the list of payroll, the -- the

 4     special police detachment list, number 40, Mr. Dragojevic who went off

 5     to -- I'm not sure what this means, Simic, VP Simic, Captain Luka; and

 6     number 77, Mr. Jokic, goes off to the same unit.

 7             And it's right, isn't it, if you look at the last page of the

 8     payroll for August, the two signatures that appear there are

 9     Mr. Samardzija and Stojan Zupljanin.  Page 7 of 20.  That's it -- no, the

10     payroll for August.  That's the ... yeah.

11        A.   In my version, it's page 6.  And that's correct.  Those are the

12     signatures.

13        Q.   All right.

14             Finally, and this is the last question, did Mr. Zupljanin ever

15     attempt to replace you, Mr. Tutus?

16        A.   I never heard that from him.  Not from him personally.

17        Q.   Who did you hear it from?

18        A.   I heard it on one occasion in 1994.  Minister Stanisic was

19     answering a question by President Radic in Bijeljina when he said

20     something like that.

21        Q.   All right.  Yes, thank you very much.

22             MS. KORNER:  That's all I ask.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

24             Mr. Zecevic, it's eight minutes before the break, would you wish

25     to begin now or would you prefer to proceed uninterrupted?

Page 7754

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Microphone not activated].

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm so sorry.  Whatever please the Court --

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Well, if you could make use of the eight minutes, I

 5     prefer to keep the regular patterns.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, okay.  Definitely, Your Honours.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tutus.

 9             Mr. Tutus, you have been a member of the MUP since 1973; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So if I understood your CV, you spent your entire career in the

12     police.  You joined the police force immediately after school.

13        A.   Yes, after primary school, as a cadet, in Vrace, I completed high

14     school and later I joined the -- I joined the force.  But that's not my

15     entire life.  I still have some life ahead of me.

16        Q.   I'm sorry, that's not how I meant it to sound.  I'm talking about

17     until 1992, because that's the relevant time for the indictment.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Mr. Tutus, you became chief of the public security station in

20     Banja Luka by decision of Minister Delimustafic in 1991; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   If I remember your interview correctly, and the whole situation,

23     to the best of our understanding, there was a so-called inter-party

24     agreement among the national parties.  And according to that agreement,

25     one of the points was that the parties divided among them the senior

Page 7755

 1     positions within the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2             Are you aware of that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Your appointment, or, rather, nomination as chief of the public

 5     security station Banja Luka followed after the proposal of the Serbian

 6     Democratic Party, although you had not been and did not become later a

 7     member of the SDS.

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Your appointment, if I may conclude, followed from the fact that

10     you were a professional policeman, and you were deserving of the

11     position.

12        A.   I think those who appointed me are better placed to answer that

13     question.

14        Q.   Thank you.  From 1991, when you became chief of the public

15     security station, and I believe even before, I drew the impression from

16     your interview that you were rather disenchanted with the situation

17     within the Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        A.   Yes, I was rather dissatisfied.

20        Q.   Just before your appointment, you went with other nominees to a

21     meeting with Mr. Avdo Hebib who was then charting the personnel policy of

22     the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes, there were several nominees.

25        Q.   You were invited to that meeting.  However, nobody received you.

Page 7756

 1     You spent the entire day waiting at the Ministry of the Interior in

 2     Sarajevo and nobody eventually received you.

 3        A.   We were sitting on the premises of the duty service for around

 4     two or three hours.  Then they handed us our IDs back.  They told us we

 5     are free to go back to Banja Luka.  There was no one to receive us.

 6             I took a break in Sarajevo.  Then I returned, and with my

 7     official ID, I entered the MUP again and went to see the

 8     Assistant Minister Momcilo Mandic and told him the story.

 9        Q.   And when you complained to Mr. Momcilo Mandic, whom you had known

10     from high school; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   When you explained to him, he eventually took you to see

13     Mr. Hebib, who was in charge of personnel policy at the MUP of the

14     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you ended up talking to

15     him.

16        A.   Yes, Momo was obviously unhappy with how things were going and he

17     accompanied me to the office of Mr. Avdo Hebib, who did conduct that

18     interview with me.

19        Q.   You said in your interview that either on that occasion or at --

20     on some later occasion when you were again in Sarajevo, Mr. Mandic told

21     you that the problem of personnel policy at the MUP of the Socialist

22     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was extremely serious and that Muslim

23     staff is being hired outside of the staffing specification?

24        A.   Yes, Momcilo said something to that effect, but I can't remember

25     if it was on that day or sometime later.

Page 7757

 1        Q.   Do you remember if he mentioned perhaps that in one day,

 2     300 letters of appointments were handed to Muslim staff, new Muslim

 3     staff?

 4        A.   I remember he said, Vlado, very weird things are going on here.

 5     In the course of the night, after business hours, as many as 200 or

 6     300 employees, Green Berets, stay on who were being hired into the MUP.

 7             He mentioned the Green Berets and the Patriotic League.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I see the time, Your Honours, and I think this is

10     appropriate time to break.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  So we resume in 20 minutes.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, if I have understood your testimony

20     correctly and the interview that you gave to the Prosecution, at the time

21     the SJB in Banja Luka, not only that SJB, didn't receive sufficient

22     equipment, uniforms, pistols from the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't that correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   I believe that you also emphasised the fact that you didn't have

Page 7758

 1     a sufficient amount of vehicles.  You didn't even have a single

 2     four-wheel drive; is that correct?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   At the same period of time, your subordinate chiefs of police

 5     stations in Mejdan and Budzak, if I remember your interview correctly, at

 6     one point in time, in 1991, they went to Sarajevo on their own initiative

 7     without even informing you of the fact; isn't that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   And upon returning from Sarajevo, they both brought a new car

10     with them, one new car each, some equipment.  They started doing work on

11     reconstructing the police station, Mejdan and Budzak.  Is that correct?

12        A.   Mejdan and Budzak, that's correct.

13        Q.   If I have understood you correctly, you asked them to come and

14     speak to you.  Could you briefly tell us what you discussed, when they

15     returned from Sarajevo and when you found out that they had been to

16     Sarajevo without having informed you of the fact.  Could you briefly tell

17     us what the discussion was about.

18        A.   It was at the beginning of 1992.  On Friday, they took the train

19     to Sarajevo, and on Saturday and Sunday, they received a Volkswagen Golf

20     each from the Ministry of the Interior.  I found out about this on

21     Monday.  When other senior officers informed me of what had happened, I

22     called them into my office and asked them whether this was correct.  They

23     showed me the documents for the goods.  They showed me that they had

24     brought a Volkswagen Golf in each and they had also received some

25     equipment, shoes, shirts, uniforms, I'm not sure whether there were any

Page 7759

 1     weapons.

 2             I asked them why they had done this without informing me.  I said

 3     that was an inappropriate way of proceeding in the MUP.  They told me

 4     they had gone to Sarajevo upon the authorisation of Chief Zupljanin.  I

 5     contacted Chief Zupljanin and he told me that it was correct, that he had

 6     agreed to this.  He had spoken to the minister about the matter.  I think

 7     that's what was said.

 8             I then told him this was not right.  How could they receive such

 9     equipment?  They said they went to see their own men.  I said, What do

10     you mean?  Which man, who?  And then the commander of the Mejdan police

11     station said that he went to see Avdo Hebib on a party basis, and the

12     other person said that he went to see Kvesic, if I remember this

13     correctly.

14             Then I ordered them to hand in the vehicles to the traffic police

15     centre because they needed it more than these two individuals, and that's

16     what they did.

17        Q.   Let me just clarify something.  The chief of the police station

18     in Mejdan was a Muslim and a SDA party member, is that correct, that's

19     why he went to see Avdo Hebib?

20        A.   You say "chief."  We're talking about the commanders of these

21     police stations.  But, yes, what you have said is correct.

22        Q.   And the commander of the Budzak police station was a Croat, and

23     he went to see Branko Kvesic, who was one of the leaders of the MUP in

24     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He was appointed by

25     the HDZ.  Is that correct?

Page 7760

 1        A.   Yes.  And if it's not a problem to add this, when I found out

 2     about all of this, I sent him a letter and I informed the minister of the

 3     interior of the matter, the deputy minister of the interior, the

 4     assistant of the minister for crime, and the chief of the CSB.  In that

 5     letter, I expressed my dissatisfaction with the procedure and I said that

 6     the Banja Luka SJB had a lot of problems with materiel and equipment.

 7        Q.   The dispatch, the letter you sent to the Ministry of the Interior

 8     of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in which you

 9     complained about such appropriation for personal needs, such

10     appropriation of equipment, such a way of providing police stations with

11     equipment, well, did you ever receive an explanation or an answer to that

12     dispatch that you sent?

13        A.   No, I didn't.

14        Q.   Wouldn't it be true to say that -- well, the commanders of the

15     Mejdan and Budzak police stations were Muslims and Croats, but the

16     commander of the Centar police station was a Serb.  Isn't that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And in your interview I think you said you asked these two men,

19     when you asked them to come and speak to you, on Monday, when you found

20     out that they had been in Sarajevo, you asked them why they hadn't taken

21     the commander of the Centar police station with them.  Isn't that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   What did they answer?

25        A.   Well, they both said that they went to see their men in the MUP.

Page 7761

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me if I have understood the matter correctly,

 2     these police stations or, rather, the commanders of the police stations

 3     in Mejdan and Budzak also started renovating those police stations.  They

 4     started painting them and so on.

 5        A.   They obtained certain equipment, some paint that had been brought

 6     into the police station.  I was then informed of the fact and then I

 7     phoned them and prohibited that they started receiving this from certain

 8     donors.  That was not appropriate.

 9        Q.   At the time did you have the impression that there was

10     discrimination, a certain amount of discrimination against Serbian staff

11     in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and in

12     SJBs or, rather, in police stations headed by Serbs?

13        A.   Well, I would say it was a difficult situation in the -- within

14     the Ministry of the Interior.

15        Q.   But you would agree with me that there were certain differences

16     when it came to treating Serb staff in police stations, police stations

17     and SJBs headed by Serbs.  They weren't treated in the same way as staff

18     who were of Muslim or Croat nationality?

19        A.   Obviously there was a party influence within the Ministry of the

20     Interior.  That was quite obvious.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Isn't it true that towards the end of 1991, or,

22     rather, in 1992, a decision was taken on separating the municipalities of

23     Stari Grad and Ivanjska in the territory of the town of Banja Luka.  Do

24     you remember that?

25        A.   As far as I have understood you, a decision was taken.  Is that

Page 7762

 1     right?

 2        Q.   Yes?

 3        A.   No.  Before the war broke out there was an initiative in

 4     Banja Luka according to which the municipality of Banja Luka should be

 5     broken down in an administrative sense and divided into a number of

 6     municipalities.  And that was still current four or five years ago.  Then

 7     after the multi-party elections, individual political parties wanted to

 8     again divide Banja Luka into a number of municipalities, and the town

 9     assembly was against this idea and they did not permit it.

10        Q.   Is it true that this was a joint initiative of the SDA and HDZ

11     parties, a joint initiative to form the municipalities of Stari Grad,

12     Bronzan and Mejdan, Krupa, Vrbas, Stricici, and Ivanjska in the territory

13     of Banja Luka.

14        A.   Yes, more or less.  Instead of Stari Grad, I think they mentioned

15     Mejdan as one of the possible municipalities.

16        Q.   Isn't it true that if the municipalities were reorganised in that

17     way, some of the newly formed municipalities would then have one of the

18     peoples in the majority.  The Muslim people or the Croat people would be

19     in the majority in that case.  Isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  At the time, the situation in Krajina, in terms of

22     security, was very difficult; isn't that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If I have understood your comments in your interview correctly,

25     there was a certain amount of psychoses that was the result of the

Page 7763

 1     shelling of certain towns.  Gradiska, for example, and Brod from the

 2     territory of Croatia.  And many Serbian refugees had arrived from the

 3     territory of Croatia and this caused a certain amount of tension, certain

 4     difficulties.  Isn't that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   At the time you know that the SDA party sent candidates that it

 7     selected, Muslim candidates, of course, to be trained in the MUP of the

 8     Republic of Croatia.  Are you aware of this?

 9        A.   I heard about this, but I have no direct information about it.

10        Q.   You remember that in a decision, or, rather, an order from

11     Minister Delimustafic the reserve of police force was mobilised in

12     September 1991?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Isn't it true that you arrived at the conclusion that the SDA,

15     or, rather, the Ministry of the Interior, was trying to form an army from

16     the police in that manner; isn't that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that was quite obvious.

18        Q.   Could you please provide us with a detailed explanation - I think

19     this will also assist the Chamber and everyone else in the courtroom -

20     how is the reserve police force mobilised?

21             Could you briefly explain this for us.

22        A.   Well, the reserve police force is mobilised in extraordinary

23     circumstances, when there is an imminent threat of war and in the course

24     of war.  The minister of the interior has to issue an order for their

25     mobilisation.

Page 7764

 1        Q.   For someone to become a member of the reserve police force in the

 2     former Yugoslavia, in the SFRY, it was obligatory to perform one's

 3     military service; isn't that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The Secretariat of -- municipal secretariats for municipal

 6     defence, for All People's Defence had to send young men of 18 and over to

 7     do their military service.  It was their responsibility.  Isn't that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   After they had completed their military service, the person who

11     had completed his military service would then bring in his case file from

12     the unit that he was a member of and there was evidence of the fact that

13     the person had certain training, specialist knowledge, obtained in the

14     course of his military training.  This was called VES.

15        A.   Yes, that's what it was called.  But what you call the case file,

16     I think they were called unit files and they were sent from military

17     units to the ministry.

18        Q.   So someone who completed his military service would then return

19     to his place of domicile and would have to report to the municipal organ,

20     the municipal military organ of national defence that had sent that

21     person to serve in the army and the person would have to inform that body

22     that his military training had been completed.  Documents would be

23     produced to that effect, and at that point in time, that Secretariat for

24     National Defence would categorise that person as a member of the military

25     reserve force.  Isn't that correct?

Page 7765

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He would be inscribed as a conscript.

 2        Q.   When the police need certain reserve policemen, with certain

 3     specialities, then the SJB or the CSB would contact the municipal organ

 4     for national defence with a request to, for example, provide the

 5     personnel files for certain individuals you needed and to have them

 6     transferred to the police reserve force from the military reserve force.

 7     Is that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.  May I add an explanation?

 9        Q.   Please let us observe pauses between questions and answers to

10     avoid problems with the record.

11        A.   As far as transfers are concerned from military departments to

12     the police, certain vetting is -- is needed.  If we needed 20 men, we

13     would ask for 30 and then we would choose those who have no criminal

14     records and who pass our field screening, et cetera.

15        Q.   You anticipated another question I wanted to ask.

16             So you would ask for a larger number than you actually needed.

17     The Secretariat for National Defence would provide you with a certain

18     number of candidates according to the specialities you required, and then

19     you would conduct screening, and only those who meet the requirements to

20     become members of the reserve police would be chosen.  And then you would

21     inform the military department and the Secretariat for National Defence

22     that you would transfer that particular number of men who satisfy all the

23     criteria to the reserve police force.

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   And then these men continued to be on file as reserve policemen

Page 7766

 1     attached to a public security station on a particular list; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.  With a proviso that these men would undergo certain

 3     training, according to the plan adopted by the Ministry of the Interior.

 4     The training plan.

 5        Q.   And this professional training is refreshed at certain intervals?

 6        A.   Yes.  A programme would be reviewed and adopted every year, and

 7     it would be implemented every year.

 8        Q.   In situations like the one you were facing, with the immediate

 9     threat of war and high security risks, you, in the police, regardless of

10     the already-existing reserve police force, if you needed an additional

11     number of reserve policemen, you would again, as we described, approach

12     the municipal Secretariat for National Defence and would again ask for a

13     new list of candidates; correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             MR. ZECEVIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] When these men become reserve policemen, when

19     they are transferred to the reserve police force, their individual

20     personnel files would be transferred to the archive of the MUP; that is,

21     of the particular public security station.

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   Thank you very much.  We will now move to a different subject.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if any

25     outstanding questions remain regarding the reserve and the transfer of

Page 7767

 1     reserve soldiers to the reserve police force.  Is there anything further

 2     I need to clarify for the Chamber?

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Not -- thank you, Mr. Zecevic.  We're satisfied.

 4     Thanks.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] My colleague reminds me about one fact that is

 9     still important to clarify.

10             At the moment when, for whatever reason, you take off a certain

11     individual from the list of your reserve police, you return his personal

12     file to the municipal Secretariat for National Defence and you inform

13     them that he had been taken off the roster of the reserve police and that

14     he is back at their disposal.

15        A.   That's right.  We would inform them there is no further need for

16     that person's engagement.

17        Q.   Thank you.  On the first day of your examination-in-chief, my

18     learned friend asked you about the meeting in Banja Luka of

19     11 February 1992.  It's 1D135.  And the tab number, according to the list

20     we provided, is 126.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have prepared two

22     binders of hard-copy documents for the witness, and since the witness

23     does not have good eye-sight, it is up to him to choose whether he would

24     be viewing documents in hard copy or on the monitor.  I thought would be

25     fair to give him the paper.

Page 7768

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, Mr. Zecevic.  Thank you.  Thank you for

 2     your assistance.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, now have you copies of all of the

 5     documents before you.  This is one number 126.  I believe it's in binder

 6     number 2.

 7             Can we proceed?

 8        A.   Please go ahead.

 9        Q.   If I understood your evidence correctly, you had never seen this

10     record of the meeting before.

11        A.   I saw it when it was shown to me by the Prosecution.

12        Q.   You couldn't even remember that meeting specifically, so we won't

13     go through it.

14             However, on page 4 of that document, there is a record of your

15     contribution to the discussion.  And I believe when the Prosecution

16     showed that you document, you said you could not remember everything

17     accurately but as far as the facts you presented, such as that you were

18     lacking an all-terrain vehicle, et cetera, you confirmed that that was,

19     indeed, the situation.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Tutus, do you remember, on page 2, the contribution of

22     Mr. Stanisic is summarised, and in the second paragraph on that page,

23     page 2, it says:

24             "From this meeting, it is needed to collect a minimum of

25     outstanding requests to be sent to Minister Delimustafic with a

Page 7769

 1     reasonable deadline to deal with them."

 2             Do you remember that there was, indeed, a suggestion that the

 3     demands made at the meeting should be submitted to the minister so that

 4     the outstanding issues be resolved within a reasonable time?

 5        A.   Right now I can't remember, but I don't see any reason why that

 6     shouldn't be right.

 7        Q.   You will agree with me, won't you, that this document

 8     demonstrates the seriousness and the complexity of security problems that

 9     existed at the time in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   I agree.

11        Q.   Especially within the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina, bearing in mind what we discussed at the very beginning, the

13     situations that you witnessed personally, those trips to Sarajevo,

14     et cetera?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The next document is tab 1, P527, also shown to you by my learned

17     friend.  Tab 1 in the first binder.

18        A.   Which number?

19        Q.   One.

20             It's a letter dated 13 February 1992.  On the right-hand side,

21     you see the number of the document.

22        A.   Yes, I can see it.

23        Q.   You remember that Ms. Korner showed you this document.

24        A.   I do.

25        Q.   Mr. Tutus, when you commented this document in response to

Page 7770

 1     Ms. Korner's question, you said it also reflects the complexity of the

 2     problems that existed at the time at the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do you remember that comment?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   What I want to know, Mr. Tutus, although you were not a recipient

 6     of this document, judging by its format, it looks like an official

 7     dispatch sent by the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina.

 9        A.   It looks official.

10        Q.   Each and every official dispatch of the MUP of the

11     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is copied to the archives of

12     the same MUP; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   That is governed by the rules of the service.

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   If there is an official dispatch sent by the regular channels of

17     communication, by teletype, then it's certainly not a secret dispatch, is

18     it?

19        A.   You're right.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] May I now ask for P323, tab 3.

21        Q.   It's a dispatch dated 31st March 1992, signed by

22     Assistant Minister of the Interior, Momcilo Mandic.

23        A.   Which number did you say?

24        Q.   Tab 3.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] P353, I'm sorry.  Binder 1, tab 3.

Page 7771

 1        Q.   Mr. Tutus, I did not want to confuse you; I wanted to help you.

 2     But if you find it easier, look at the monitor.

 3        A.   No, I'm fine.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             This document was shown to you earlier by Ms. Korner, and you

 6     confirmed that you had received this document.

 7        A.   Well, I can't remember exactly, but if I confirmed, I did.

 8        Q.   But you're certainly familiar with the substance.

 9        A.   Yes, I am.

10        Q.   After that, my learned friend Ms. Korner showed you another

11     document, a dispatch from the minister, Alija Delimustafic, 1D136, tab 4.

12     That's the next document for you.  1D136 of the same date.

13        A.   Let me see.

14        Q.   You remember giving comments on this document to Ms. Korner?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

16        Q.   My learned friend Ms. Korner asked you if you had done anything

17     about this document from Alija Delimustafic; do you remember that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And you answered that you had not done anything particular about

20     that document.  However, on page 72 of your interview, and earlier in

21     your evidence here, you did hold meetings about these documents we looked

22     at, dated 31st March 1992.  You did go with one of your assistants to

23     special meetings, to the police station Mejdan and the Budzak police

24     station, both.

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 7772

 1        Q.   I think that it was your evidence here, too, that at the meeting,

 2     first in Budzak where the commander of the police station was a Croat,

 3     once you've explained to them the situation that had arisen, as a result

 4     of the decision to divide the MUP, some of the policemen of Croat

 5     ethnicity asked you if that meant that they were supposed to work with

 6     criminals, and your response was that this was not going to happen while

 7     you were there.

 8             You had invited them to stay in their jobs and join the MUP of

 9     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Is that right?

10        A.   Yes.  A handful of them refused to sign the solemn declaration

11     and left the premises.

12        Q.   At page 72 of your interview, and I only wish you to confirm that

13     this is, indeed, what -- the way I'm going paraphrase it now.

14             MS. KORNER:  I just want to know where the word "a handful" only

15     refused appear.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Ms. Korner it's the answer of the -- of the

17     witness.  It wasn't -- it wasn't suggested by me.

18             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, I thought you were quoting the -- the

19     answer in the interview that the witness gave.  And I can't see the words

20     "a handful" anywhere.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, the -- no, it is 45, 22, the witness answer

22     was:

23             "Yes, a handful of them refused to sign the solemn declaration

24     and left the premises."

25             MS. KORNER:  I see.  So you weren't saying that's what he said in

Page 7773

 1     interview.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  No.  That is the answer of the witness.

 3             MS. KORNER:  No, no, I just wanted to know whether you were

 4     putting that from the interview.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  No.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] In your interview, you said:

 7             "I was asked by one of the policemen in Budzak, Chief, are you

 8     going to guarantee that criminals would not be working with us?"  And you

 9     said:

10             "Yes, I can give you that guarantee for as long as I am the

11     chief."

12             "And the Croat, who I believe was from Ivanjska, said, If you

13     give us that guarantee, then we will trust you and stay with you."

14             And that's what you've just confirmed a moment ago.  Is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The interview goes on to say:

18             "The commander of the police station stood up and said, and I

19     will paraphrase to the best of my recollection:  I will not have the

20     three-colour insignia on my cap.  How am I going to go to the villages

21     inhabited with Croats with such a uniform?  What would they tell me?  And

22     I am calling upon all of those who share my view to leave the meeting.  A

23     couple of them stood up and left with him.  All the rest stayed at the

24     meeting, and I closed it.  There were no problems.  The soldiers -- those

25     who had weapons returned them and that's how it was."

Page 7774

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that the three-colour

 2     insignia was the Serbian three-colour insignia.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I don't see that the witness answer was

 4     recorded.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Will you please repeat your answer.  It is not

 6     reflected in the transcript.

 7        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  At page 68 of your interview, in answer to a question

 9     put by the OTP, you presented certain percentages as to how many of all

10     the members of the public security station Banja Luka of Muslim and Croat

11     ethnicities, and we're including the Centar, Mejdan and Budzak police

12     stations into that station, had remained in the area.

13             Do you recall that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Your answer at the time was that of all the Croat members of the

16     public security station Banja Luka who, on the 31st of March, when the

17     MUP was divided, were working for the MUP, 73 per cent agreed to stay

18     with the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Is that

19     right?

20        A.   Yes, precisely.  Of all the Croats -- I don't need to go on

21     explaining if the matter is clear.

22        Q.   But you may clarify, just in case.  In other words, if there were

23     100 of them, let's say, 73 stayed in their job.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And 27 left MUP or, rather, refused to work for the MUP of the

Page 7775

 1     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Compared to the number of Muslims, the percentage was 61; is that

 4     right?  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is that piece of information correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Let us clarify this fully.  Of 100 Muslims who worked there,

 9     61 agreed to go on working for the MUP of the Serbian Republic of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Yes, by way of an example.

12        Q.   Yes, just an example.

13             MS. KORNER:  I think we should make it clear, though, that this

14     comes from an article in "Glas" where he is quoted, and we should have

15     the date as well, and I think the document should go in.  It's an article

16     from "Glas" dated the 24th of April.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Ms. Korner, I don't intend to use the

18     newspaper articles because you know my --

19             MS. KORNER:  Then you can't use -- you can't have it both ways.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, no, but I have -- I have asked the witness

21     and he confirmed these -- these numbers.  I don't see why would I

22     additionally need to put an article on that.

23             MS. KORNER:  Because it is not clear from the question and answer

24     that these are answers that he gave to a reporter as quoted by a

25     reporter.  I don't believe he has any other document to support this

Page 7776

 1     assertion.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  This is not based on a document.  This is based on

 3     his knowledge and he -- in his interview on page 68, he -- I will read

 4     the --

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes, could you read the question at line 3 on

 6     page 68.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, and he said this is true.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  The question was -- for the illustration

10     73 per cent of the Croat and 65 Muslim -- 65 -- 61 per cent of the Muslim

11     of -- of the existing number of employees have agreed to -- to -- to --

12     to stay.  And he says that's true.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, what is actually put to him is -- by

14     the investigator, Let me show you a -- well, it's a "Glas" article dated

15     the 24th of April, 1992, written by Mr. Kopanja, entitled:  "Lies for War

16     Psychoses."

17             And then it's put to him that:  "You apparently declare to the

18     journalist" and then the figures are put, and he agrees with that.

19     That's what he said to the journalist.

20             So it is not quite the same thing.  Can I -- that's the

21     difference I'm trying to draw.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Let me rephrase my questions.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, do you recall as the truth that

24     73 per cent of Croats, members of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina, after the 1st of April, agreed to stay on in the MUP

Page 7777

 1     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Yes or no, to the best of

 2     your recollection.

 3        A.   I'd very much like to see an article or anything else that might

 4     substantiate it, but I have no reason to doubt the information if it was

 5     published, as it was.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I don't have the

 7     reference.  I don't have a problem if -- that we show the document to the

 8     witness.  If -- if Ms. Korner can help with me with that, I would

 9     appreciate.  Or over the break I can provide this document.

10             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] ... I mean, that it is

11     not that he was quoting statistics.  It's -- this is the -- the

12     journalist says, "This is what you said," and he says, "I agree."  So

13     that's the only small point I'm trying to make.

14             JUDGE HALL:  I have had the impression until the witness's last

15     answer that, notwithstanding that the source of this was this article in

16     "Glas," that he -- effectively adopted it, the figures, and made them his

17     own.  But now I'm not sure as to ...

18             It probably may be necessary, if -- if this is an important point

19     to go back to the source material.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, I will prepare the document

21     after the break, and then I will revisit the issue with the witness.  If

22     that pleases the Court.  Thank you.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Now that the issue of newspaper articles has

24     been raised, two days ago, my learned friend showed you the 4th of April,

25     1992, "Glas" article, which is P536.  You don't have it in the binder

Page 7778

 1     there, but you will see it on the monitor.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  This it P536.

 3        Q.   You commented on the article, which was published about the SOS

 4     action in Banja Luka.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   As I was preparing my questions for you, I noticed that, on

 7     page 1 of the document, at the very bottom, it is stated that all the

 8     members of the Islamic faith were to receive greetings on the occasion of

 9     the Bajram festivities, and this has not been translated into English.

10     Do you see this?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   To all the members of Islamic faith and what follows is a

13     "Mubarek Bajram, Mubarek Olsun," which is probably the expression used on

14     the occasion of the Bajram feast.  Is that right.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   There were several questions put in relation to the reasons

17     behind or the motivations behind this event between the 4th and the

18     5th of April, 1992, in Banja Luka.  I would like to take you back to

19     page 1.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like the top part to be

21     shown to the witness.

22        Q.   Where the very article describes the reasons prompting the event.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  Could we please turn to the left.

24     Right.

25        Q.   As can you see, it states here the motivation for the action is

Page 7779

 1     Jerko Doko's address, a minister in the government of the

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and his statement that the reservists were waging a

 3     private war and placing themselves outside the law.  In other words, the

 4     SOS members thus presented the reasons for their actions.

 5             Do you recall the statement by Jerko Doko made in April 1992?

 6        A.   As far as I remember, Jerko Doko was the minister of defence in

 7     the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  During this period of time a

 8     dispatch was sent to the heads of public security stations, where we were

 9     asked to take out unit dossiers from the various offices for national

10     defence in order to prevent the JNA from mobilising people.  We felt that

11     this did not fall within our competence, to engage in such activities.

12        Q.   If I'm well informed, Mr. Jerko Doko was a Croat and a member of

13     the HDZ, was he not?

14        A.   I don't know if he was member of the HDZ or not, but I do believe

15     that he was a Croat and the minister of defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 2 of

17     the article.

18             Could we zoom in on the top part of it.

19        Q.   Here, again, in this box, it is stated that the blockade of the

20     Banja Luka area carried out by the "Serbian Defence Forces," in inverted

21     commas, is the result of the address by Jerko Doko, minister of defence

22     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the National Assembly of Banja Luka, who had

23     accused of -- who had accused the reservists of waging a private war.  Is

24     this what you've been referring to a moment ago?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7780

 1        Q.   Thank you.  At one point the Prosecutor asked you if you had

 2     participated in the negotiations with the Serb Defence Forces, et cetera,

 3     and you -- your answer was negative.

 4             At the very bottom it is stated that after several hours of

 5     negotiations where members of the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka and members

 6     of the Banija Luka Corps, the JNA, and of -- and the AR Krajina took

 7     part --


 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please not move the article

10     because we were focussing on the middle of the page in order for the

11     witness to follow.  Right.  Thank you.  I will have to read it anew.  Can

12     the page -- can we turn to the left of the page a bit so that we can see

13     the start of the column.  Thank you.

14        Q.   It is stated:

15             "After several hours of negotiations between representatives of

16     the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, Territorial Defence, the JNA's

17     Banija Luka Corps, and institutions of lawful authorities in Banja Luka,

18     the demands put forth," et cetera.  Not even the newspaper article seems

19     to mention that MUP representatives, representatives of the CSB,

20     participated in this in any way.

21        A.   It is my statement that I did not take part in this at all.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown a

24     video that has already been seen.  It's the parade dated the 13th of May.

25     P1080 is the number.

Page 7781

 1        Q.   But before we show the video, could you please comment on

 2     something?

 3             The 13th of May, in the former Yugoslavia, was the date of the

 4     so-called Security Day.  Members of the security services celebrated this

 5     day.  Members of the MUP and members of military security celebrated this

 6     day.  Isn't that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8             With your permission, festivities were large-scale festivities.

 9     There were large-scale gatherings that were held in various towns, in

10     different towns every year, and I'm proud to be able to say that I

11     participated in most of those gatherings, most of those celebrations,

12     well, for at least ten or 15 years.

13        Q.   And these assemblies, so to speak, were held both at the federal

14     level and at the level of all the republics and regions in the former

15     Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia; isn't that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  From the level of municipalities right up to the federal

17     level.

18        Q.   And it was customary for the Republican Secretariat for the

19     interior -- the republican secretary for the interior, that would now

20     correspond to the role of minister, it was customary for that person to

21     inspect the members of the security services.  An appropriate speech

22     would be given.  Then there were versus cultural and artistic programmes,

23     sports events and so on and so forth.

24             That was the nature of the celebrations.  Isn't that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 7782

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please show the video.

 2     P1080.

 3             I apologise, I didn't think that it was for us to show the video.

 4     I haven't prepared that, so I will do so during the break.  I do

 5     apologise.

 6             Mr. Smith says that he will be kind enough to show it for our

 7     benefit.

 8             Thank you.

 9        Q.   My question concerns the end.  You can continue showing it.  In

10     the course of your testimony, you confirmed that this equipment -- this

11     military equipment, they are military vehicles we can see here.  That was

12     in response to a question from Ms. Korner.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Towards the end --

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Smith show the part where

16     the helicopters appear.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, I also had this question for the

18     witness about these APCs that are driving down on the street, and I

19     wonder if it is possible to -- to go back and try and enlarge the white

20     script that is on one of the blue APCs, I think, the second or the third.

21             I'm not sure if it says "policija," but it looks to me as if it

22     does.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Microphone not activated].

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel, please.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Even better.  Then can we see it, if it's

Page 7783

 1     possible.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Microphone not activated].

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel, please.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  Can I return back, because this is a

 5     perfect spot for what I want to show to the witness on this and then I

 6     will return.  If it pleases the Court.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, the helicopters were a subject of

 8     discussion and you confirmed that the Banja Luka CSB, before 1992, had

 9     one helicopter which -- well, you said there was a heli-port and you said

10     that the helicopter was used for the needs of the MUP or, rather, the

11     CSB.  Isn't that what you said?

12        A.   That's correct.  That helicopter was obtained for the needs of

13     the municipal secretariat for internal affairs, which later back the SJB.

14     And later, this all became part of the CSB.  It was all integrated at a

15     later stage.

16        Q.   But it is true to say that that helicopter isn't one of these

17     helicopters because the helicopter that the Banja Luka CSB had before

18     1992 was taken to Sarajevo.  Isn't that correct?  That's what you said?

19        A.   I don't know how this was done.  I don't know whether it was

20     handed over or sold.  I don't know how this was done, but I know that we

21     lost the helicopter.

22        Q.   Have a look at the photograph on the screen now, please.  Isn't

23     it true that when you have a look at the tail-end of the helicopter, you

24     can see a red star, a five-pointed star, and that's the symbol of the

25     JNA, isn't it?

Page 7784

 1        A.   I believe so.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  If we can further play the video.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Stop here.  Sorry.  If can you just return here.

 5     Yeah, here.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see it now?

 7        A.   Yes, can I see that very clearly.

 8        Q.   Isn't it correct to say that that is the symbol used by the JNA?

 9        A.   Yes, that's the five-pointed star.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Mr. Smith, I appreciate your help very much

12     but can we go back now for -- for the -- to this -- to the very beginning

13     for the purposes of the question for -- Judge Harhoff posed.  Yeah.

14             Can you stop here?  Would it be -- well, maybe -- maybe a further

15     on a bit.  Yeah, here.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see that it says "milicija" here in the

17     Cyrillic script?

18        A.   Yes, can I see that.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, would you want me to -- I have

20     another question on this matter and maybe later if you would like me to

21     pursue the matter any further.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I won't.  Please move on.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, isn't it true to say that these -- as

25     you say, military vehicles, and I agree with that description, these

Page 7785

 1     military vehicles were quite recently painted blue.  You can see that.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Even the wheels were painted blue?

 4        A.   Yes, I agree.

 5        Q.   Would you agree with me, or you would agree with me, would you

 6     not, that these vehicles and this entire parade was in fact held for

 7     propaganda purposes.  The vehicles were used for propaganda purposes and

 8     the parade was held for propaganda purposes?

 9        A.   I couldn't say so.  I think the purpose was to demonstrate force

10     and to demonstrate, for the benefit of the citizens, that the situation

11     was secure, et cetera.

12        Q.   That's what I meant by propaganda purposes as well.  Thank you.

13             I said that that's what I meant when I said propaganda purposes

14     as well.

15             Let's go back to 1D150 now.  1D151.  These are documents that you

16     will find in the second binder.  130 and 131 are the numbers in your

17     binder.

18             This is document 1D150, signed by the minister for internal

19     affairs, Alija Delimustafic.  It was forwarded to all CSBs, to public

20     security stations, and it has to do with an order issued by the commander

21     of the Territorial Defence Staff of the Republic of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina, dated the 29th of April, 1992.  It's an order on

23     implementing a Presidency decision, in fact.

24             Do you remember this document?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 7786

 1        Q.   Amongst other things, under item 1 the document states the

 2     following:

 3             "All roads in the territory of the [Realtime transcript read in

 4     error "Republic of Serbia"] Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina being used

 5     by units of the former JNA for pulling out materiel and equipment are to

 6     be completely blocked in direct coordination with the Ministry of the

 7     Interior."

 8             Item 2:  "Larger areas with military installations, et cetera."

 9             Item 3:  "Unannounced convoys of former JNA units and convoys

10     without MUP escorts shall not be allowed to leave the barracks, et

11     cetera."

12             Item 4 says:  "Urgently plan and launch combat activities

13     throughout the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

14     these activities are to be coordinated with the Territorial Defence

15     staffs of the region, districts and the Republic of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina ..."

17             Do you remember this?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   You would agree with me that this document is, in fact, an order

20     on starting a war.

21        A.   Well, that's not what I would say.  My opinion is that this order

22     was supposed to cause a conflict between the JNA on the one side and the

23     police and the Territorial Defence on the other.  And that's what I said

24     with regard to that transcript.  I said there were ugly dispatches from

25     the MUP.  This is one of the ugliest ones that I received.

Page 7787

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  As an objection to the transcript,

 3     page 58, line 14, it says the Republic of Serbia, but the Republic of

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina is concerned.  That's what it says in the document

 5     itself.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, if you are about to move on to

 7     something else, it's 12.05.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE HALL:  20 minutes [Microphone not activated]

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I --

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes Mr. Zecevic.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, let us conclude our discussion on

21     this document concerning Alija Delimustafic and the 29th of April.

22             You said that, in your view, the document, had paved the way to a

23     conflict between the JNA, TO, and the police.  And the truth of the

24     matter is that the conflict did take place, did it not?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7788

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We will have to go back to the issue we discussed at

 2     the start of my examination concerning the percentages of Muslims and

 3     Croats who remained with the MUP of the Serbian Republic of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina after the MUP had separated on the 31st of March.

 5             We prepared the article from "Glas."

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  If the Usher would be so kind to -- to give the

 7     copy of the document to the witness.

 8             Your Honours, may I just inform the Court that it has been

 9     uploaded in the e-court.  It is 1D03-2165.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you [Microphone not activated]

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  You're welcome, Your Honours.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] As can you see, sir, this is an article from

13     "Glas"; page 2 of the 24th of April, 1992.

14             In the box, the text refers to strong reactions to some

15     statements by Muharem Krzic, president of the Party of Democratic Action

16     for Banja Luka.  The last four paragraphs relate your statement.  I

17     quote:

18             "Krzic's statements have provoked strong reactions in the Banja

19     Luka public station -- security station as well?"

20             And then let's skip a bit.  And here, apparently your words are

21     related:

22             "Mr. Muharem Krzic has for a while now systematically been

23     attacking the CSB and the SJB of Banja Luka.  In my view, these are

24     thought-out fabrications in order to create an atmosphere of war in

25     these -- in this area."

Page 7789

 1             And then you go on to say that Mr. Krzic does not hesitate to use

 2     any sort of means to demean the SJB.

 3             So, he stated that out of the 105 policemen, only 7 Muslims and

 4     6 Croats were employed.  Although the public at large knows that such

 5     statements are pure fabrications and lies.

 6             "'For illustration's sake,'" you go on to say, "'the loyalty

 7     oath,'" and when you say the "loyalty oath," I suppose you're referring

 8     to the solemn declaration, "'to the Serbian Republic of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina had so far been signed by 73 per cent of Croats and

10     61 per cent of Muslims of the overall number of members of our SJB,'

11     Vladimir Tutus stated, the chief of the SJB Banja Luka."

12             Mr. Tutus, do you recall stating this and do you stand by what

13     you said at the time?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   What strikes me is that Mr. Muharem Krzic, the president of the

16     SDA Banja Luka, as early as the 18th of March, stated that only seven

17     Muslims and six Croats were employed for the Banja Luka SJB.  And this is

18     something that was referred to here.  The 18th of March precedes the date

19     of the separation of the MUP, does it not?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  I hope this satisfies the -- the issue of knowledge

22     of this witness concerning the percentages of Muslim and Croat workers in

23     the -- who remained in -- in MUP of Republika Srpska.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  It certainly does, Mr. Zecevic.  Although one

25     little question could be added to the questions that you have put.

Page 7790

 1     Namely, how long did the two gentlemen stay in office in the SJBs that we

 2     discussed earlier this morning?  There was specific reference made to two

 3     named chiefs of SDBs -- SJBs, one was a Croat and the other was a Muslim,

 4     who stayed in office, who stayed and continued to serve as chief of the

 5     SJB, even after they had not signed the -- the declaration and even after

 6     the MUP was split.

 7             So my question was -- that's very good, that proves your point,

 8     but how long did they continue to stay in office?  Right through the end

 9     of the conflict?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, if I may remind you.

11     First of all, it refers to commanders of the police stations, Mejdan and

12     Budzak, and I believe the witness has said that on this meeting, when he

13     went over there, both of them resigned on that particular meeting and

14     they didn't stay.  Both of them.  Both commanders of Mejdan and Budzak

15     have resigned and they didn't stay on the force after the 31st of March,

16     but can I --

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, no --

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- ask the witness to confirm that.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You are right.  I was wrong.  My recollection

20     simply fooled me here.  So you don't need to pursue.

21             Thank you very much.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I would suggest that this now needs to

24     be an exhibit, the whole article, because the context is important.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, you know the position of the

Page 7791

 1     Stanisic Defence concerning newspaper articles.  I don't think that --

 2     that the document needs to be exhibited and neither will we offer it for

 3     exhibit, because I believe the witness sufficiently stated that it his

 4     recollection and that he stays by this.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, no.  I mean, with respect, that can't

 6     be right.  The context of all of this is important.  That's why I raised

 7     the question of the fact that it came from a newspaper article.  The

 8     Defence are using newspaper articles when it suits them and other

 9     newspaper articles are admitted into evidence as exhibits, and indeed the

10     witness said that's what he said and he stands by it.

11             So it is an accurate quote.

12             JUDGE HALL:  So the article is derivative and the evidence, as

13     Mr. Zecevic has said, is what the witness has testified to here so what's

14     the --

15             MS. KORNER:  Well, no, Your Honour, that's not right, and with

16     respect.  What he says is this accurately quotes what he says.  In -- in

17     the submission of the Prosecution, the context of this whole quote is

18     important and the context is given by the article.  And articles are

19     admissible in -- in evidence and have been so admitted.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Well, of course, that has happened.  But are you

21     talking in terms of this specific article, having regard to the testimony

22     that we have heard, I -- I -- I am still at a loss as to why, in the

23     Prosecution's view, it needs be exhibited.

24             On the other hand, I don't see any harm to it being exhibited

25     having regard to the fact that articles have been exhibited.  So ...

Page 7792

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I don't mind.  If Mr. Zecevic

 2     won't ask formally for to it to be exhibited in his case, then I'm going

 3     do so in reexamination.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I definitely will not offer this

 5     document because we take the principled position out of -- as a

 6     principle.  So -- but I don't object that Ms. Korner uses in the

 7     cross-examination [sic] and offers it to -- for -- to evidence.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, I would now like to discuss the work

14     of the Banja Luka public security station which you were at the head of

15     in 1992, since this is relevant for our case.

16             In the course of your testimony, you said, on several occasions,

17     that communications in the course of 1992 - that's to say, as of the

18     month of April onwards - with the Ministry of the Interior, were quite

19     difficult.  Is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Your communication with the SCB [as interpreted] Banja Luka was

22     not difficult since you were housed in the same building.  Is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   However, the communication with the ministry did experience

25     problems, as you said.  Is it not the case that even in physical terms,

Page 7793

 1     Krajina had been cut off up until the month of July from the rest of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Can I just assist Mr. Zecevic in the transcript for

 5     once.  The question:  "Your communication," it was translated as "SCB"

 6     but it's clearly you were saying CSB, "was not difficult, since you were

 7     housed in the same building.  Is that correct?"

 8             Well, no word has come out in the transcript but I'm assuming you

 9     said "CSB" in Serbian?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  I said, "Your communication with the CSB

11     Banja Luka," yes.  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, I would like to -- you to look at

13     document 65 ter 227, which is behind tab 37.  This is a dispatch of the

14     public security station of Banja Luka, chief of department, Mr. Josic

15     signed it, and the date is the 21st of August, 1992.

16             This is in response to the -- to the CSB Banja Luka dispatch of

17     the 19th of August.  Can you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   The information has been given, I suppose, in response to a

20     request from the CSB concerning the number of individuals who were placed

21     in detention between the 1st of January, 1992, and the 20th of August,

22     1992.

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   It is stated here that the -- that detention was imposed by the

25     public security station against 172 individuals; is that right?

Page 7794

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   It goes on to say that the individuals who were placed in

 3     detention up to -- through -- three days were within the time-limit of

 4     72 hours turned over to the -- to the -- investigating judge having

 5     jurisdiction, together with reports and criminal reports.  Do you see

 6     that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And according to your section chief, there was not a single

 9     complaint filed against the work of the section in placing individuals in

10     detention in the course of the said period.  Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was that, indeed, the situation in the Banja Luka SJB as

13     reflected here?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   This section chief, Zoran Josic, was the chief of the crime

16     police section, was he not, of the CID?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.

18        Q.   In other words, you are familiar with the information contained

19     in this document and you confirm it, do you not?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can I tender this document into

22     evidence, please.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D197, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic --

Page 7795

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes?

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- you have these documents two times in your

 3     binder, under tab 37 and tab 108.  May I suppose that is a simple

 4     mistake?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Definitely, Your Honours.  But we have been listing

 6     all the documents and we acknowledge that there was some duplicates, and

 7     we're not offering them.  Thank you very much.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, the results of the SJB in 1992, its

 9     performance, compared to the performance of the same station in 1991 was,

10     objectively speaking, identical or even improved.

11        A.   No, it wasn't identical.  It was improved.

12        Q.   Can you clarify, please.

13        A.   As far as I remember, more than 50 per cent of the criminal cases

14     were resolved, even though the overall number of crimes increased.  I

15     think that the station had to deal with over a thousand crimes, which was

16     much more than in the previous period.

17        Q.   I'm not sure I understood you correctly.  My understanding was

18     that you said that in 1992 there were a thousand crimes that the --

19     overall number of crimes had been increased by 1.000 compared to 1991.

20        A.   Yes.  There were more cases in 1992, and the station had to

21     address these cases with the same number of staff.

22        Q.   To make matters quite clear, you know that we have to have this

23     interpreted and we're having difficulties with the transcript.

24             So if in 1991, as an example, there were 500 crimes, in 1992,

25     there were 1.500 and you had the same staff levels in the public security

Page 7796

 1     station Banja Luka.

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes, we were dealing with thousands of offences.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please turn to tab 67, 1D00-1257.  This is an

 4     operative work-plan of the Banja Luka CSB.  It is classified as an

 5     official secret.  The date is the 25th of May, 1992.  The preamble refers

 6     to it being based on the instruction on conducting affairs in crime

 7     prevention and detection, which had been applied since 1982 but was still

 8     in application in the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9     Is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   At page 5 of the operative work-plan, as will you see, it is

12     stated that the plan was drafted by the inspectors of the OZSK section

13     inspectors.  I don't know if you recognise the signature in the left-hand

14     corner?

15        A.   Yes, I recognise it.

16        Q.   Whose signature is it under the chief of section?

17        A.   Chief of the general crime section, Zivko Bojic.

18        Q.   And on the right-hand side, under "Approved"?

19        A.   Chief of centre, Stojan Zupljanin.

20        Q.   You are aware of the existence of this document, this operative

21     work-plan.  I suppose it involved also your staff at the public security

22     station Banja Luka.

23        A.   Yes.  I remember that we consulted and agreed this activity with

24     the chief of the centre.

25        Q.   Let us go through this document briefly.  Again, back to page 1.

Page 7797

 1     We read that in the period of less than two months, from 2 or

 2     3 April 1992 until the 25th of May, armed groups and individuals

 3     committed 51 robberies.  And it lists all the kinds of robberies that

 4     were committed.

 5             And then it says from mid-August, I suppose it's August 1991,

 6     there were 76 incidents involving explosives.

 7             Can you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Remember when we talked about robberies?  It confirms what you

10     said.  By comparison, only nine robberies were committed in 1991, and now

11     just in two months there are 51.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And at the bottom of page 1, it says there indicia that the

14     persons are linked to a number of murders and attempted murders, such as

15     the murder of Mirsad Sabic and the attempted murder of certain

16     Slobodan Tesanjovic.  It says also what is needed to be done, to deal

17     with these crimes, to shed light on these cases.

18             1, to establish a list of criminals who were engaged in SOS units

19     through the mediation of a certain person nicknamed Canak.

20             Can you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And then under (b):  "Arrest Mladen Josic."

23             Under (c):  Identify a man named Ratko Keser.  And then in

24     item 2, disarm and arrest the group led by Brane Palackovic, in brackets,

25     VP military post, where they are posted, et cetera.  And then we have

Page 7798

 1     several persons enumerated.  It also says disarm the group from

 2     Starcevica, and so on and so forth.  It goes on to item (g), all the

 3     various measures envisaged by this operative work-plan.

 4             Can you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Would you agree with me that these measures, under 1, and 2, from

 7     (a) to (g), that end on page 3, have for the most part been carried out,

 8     to the best of your recollection?

 9        A.   The plan was implemented and I know that there had been arrests

10     and remands in custody.

11        Q.   On page 3, there is another reference to the case of the murder

12     of Sabic, Mirsad.  I suppose it's a Muslim.

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And towards the bottom of that page, there's a new reference to

15     explosions and the investigation of a series of explosions committed by a

16     group led by Vedran Mandic.

17             You remember that Ms. Korner showed you some documentation

18     concerning this Vedran Mandic.

19        A.   I remember.

20             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, to be accurate, I didn't show him

21     documentation.  I asked him about the attack on the police station and he

22     mentioned him.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner.  I -- you mentioned

24     Mr. Vedran Mandic.  That was the point.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] On the last page, page 5 of this document, it

Page 7799

 1     says that within the framework of the operative work-plan, in

 2     paragraph 2, that investigation is ongoing concerning the explosion at

 3     the Arnaudija mosque, and certain operative information is mentioned.

 4        A.   Which passage?

 5        Q.   Paragraph 2.  It says work to investigate the explosion around

 6     the mosque Arnaudija.  It says according to operative information, the

 7     explosive was detonated by a certain Milomir Cutkovic, nicknamed Piga,

 8     and another person.  And it refers also to a note made on the 23rd of

 9     March, 1992.

10        A.   I see that.

11        Q.   Do you remember this case about the explosion at the mosque?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   In the next paragraph it says:

14             "In view of the fact that these individuals were in a way

15     self-organised in the guise of membership in the SOS, that they are

16     well-armed, and that some of them were mobilised by the JNA, their arrest

17     should be carried out by members of the special police detachment,

18     together with the military police."

19             Can you see that?

20        A.   I see that.

21        Q.   And in conclusion, it says, I quote:

22             "As long as the military prosecution office and the military

23     court are not finally established, the plan cannot be implemented because

24     most of the offenders are conscripts and members of the former TO, which

25     is why civilian courts and prosecutors refuse to take up these cases."

Page 7800

 1             Do you remember that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you remember facing this problem at the time because the

 4     military prosecutor's office was not operating?

 5        A.   Yes.  There were such problems.

 6        Q.   And finally, it says the plan would be amended and expanded as

 7     needed in the course of each separate operation.

 8             Can you see that?

 9        A.   Yes, I can see that.

10        Q.   In an attachment to this document, we have a list.  In fact, a

11     table with a breakdown of various crimes committed.  I believe it's

12     page 6 in e-court, 6 and onwards.  It contains the sequential number, the

13     location of the crime, the type of crime, time of perpetration, injured

14     parties, items stolen, and possible perpetrators.

15             And then under number 2 is a certain injured party, Enes Nurkic.

16     Can you see that on page 1?  Robberies committed by uniformed persons.

17     The injured party is Enes Nurkic.

18        A.   Which number?

19        Q.   Number 2.  I suppose it's a Muslim.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Sulejman Huskic, number 3?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Also Muslim?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Number 4, Nermin Osmic also?

Page 7801

 1        A.   You mean, Nermina.

 2        Q.   Muslim?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   6, 7 and 8 are also all Muslims?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And number 11, Fikret Velic, also a Muslim citizen?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All these were documented robberies against injured parties of

 9     Muslim ethnicities -- ethnicity in the territory of Banja Luka between

10     the 2nd of April and 25 May 1992.  Correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   On the next page, under numbers 13, 14, 15 -- or, rather, 13 and

13     14, I believe, are Muslims; 15 is Ivica Paponja [phoen], I suppose a

14     Croat.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The same applies to number 21 and number 22.  Croats and Muslims.

17     Do you agree?

18        A.   Yes, I agree.

19        Q.   On the next page we have, in handwriting, names of injured

20     parties are added.  31, the last name is Sotric.

21        A.   Marzada Sabic.

22        Q.   And 32, Denis Hamidovic or Haridovic.  Can you see that?

23        A.   Yes.  Hamidzic, I think.

24        Q.   Both of them are Muslims.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7802

 1        Q.   On the next page, numbers 36, 37, and 38, Mahmutovic Spahic,

 2     Midhat Obradovac, and number 40, Muslija Dzevad, also Muslims?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So if I understand this correctly, the conclusion that simply

 5     imposes itself from this operative work-plan is that the CSB Banja Luka

 6     and the public security station of Banja Luka were documenting and

 7     proceeding on all cases, regardless of the identity and ethnicity of the

 8     injured parties.

 9        A.   Yes, of course.

10        Q.   And this is in keeping with your legal obligation under the

11     Law on Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska?

12        A.   Of course.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

14     document, if there is no objection.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D198, Your Honours.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Now, just to show that this operative work-plan was not simply a

19     dead letter on paper, we will show some of the documents that resulted

20     from the implementation of this plan.

21             Open, please, 84.  The document is 1D00-1837.  It's a letter from

22     the Security Services Centre, signed by chief of sector Djuro Bulic,

23     submitted on 6 July 1992 to the public prosecutor's office in Banja Luka.

24     It reports on proceedings by the CSB.

25        A.   It was not actually signed by Djuro Bulic.  It was signed by the

Page 7803

 1     chief of the centre.

 2        Q.   You recognise Mr. Zupljanin's signature?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   On the next page, you will see in this document a decision to

 5     remind -- to remand in custody - and the date is 3rd July 1992 - to

 6     remand in custody Dragan Javorac, Mladen Josic and some other persons?

 7        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 8        Q.   If you remember the previous document we were looking at, in the

 9     item 2, (a), it says disarm and arrest the group led by a certain

10     Brano Jackovac [as interpreted], including Dragan Javorac, one

11     Milasinovic and some other persons on this same list.  Do you remember

12     that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And on page 2 of this decision to remand in custody, signed by

15     Mr. Zupljanin, on page 2 in the reasoning it says:

16             "There are grounds for suspicion that the detained persons, in a

17     group and individually, committed 37 crimes of robbery, murder,

18     extortion, causing public danger, and others ..."

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I don't think it is in dispute that all these persons remanded in

21     custody herewith are of Serb ethnicity.

22        A.   I think so.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there is no objection, I would

24     like to tender this document too.

25             MS. KORNER:  Well, yes and no.  I mean, the answer is -- the

Page 7804

 1     witness never asked whether he has ever seen the document before.  And

 2     also could I know where the document emanates from it?  It's not, as I

 3     understand it, a document that comes from our collection.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  We received this document from

 5     Republika Srpska.  Just a moment.  What is the exact name?  The team for

 6     the investigation of war crimes of Republika Srpska.

 7             Ms. Korner, I am certain that this document, first of all, must

 8     be in the archives of the CSB Banja Luka, and you have that entire

 9     archive.  And, second, since it went to the public prosecutor's office,

10     must be at the public prosecutor's office of Banja Luka, I can claim with

11     near certainty that -- that it is in your collection.

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, I'm sure Mr. Zecevic can claim it is in our

13     collection, but at the moment there's nothing to show that we have ever

14     laid eyes on this one before, and we have turned over the whole of the

15     CSB collection bar certain documents is in EDS.  So I don't want to

16     comment further on that.

17             My real question is whether this witness is the proper witness

18     for this document to go through because, as I understand it, I believe

19     the answer to the question which he hasn't been asked would be he has

20     never seen this document before.

21             And there are other witnesses coming who will deal with the

22     prosecution of offences.  I mean, that's the only thing I raise.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I can ask the witness if he --

24     if can he confirm the document.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Please.

Page 7805

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tutus, have you previously seen this

 3     document, and can you confirm your information about whether these

 4     individuals were really detained as part of this operation?

 5        A.   Are you referring to the decision on detention?

 6        Q.   Yes, all these documents and the letter to the public

 7     prosecutor's office that was signed by Mr. Zupljanin, as you say?

 8        A.   I personally have not seen the decision on detention or the

 9     letter to the prosecutor's office.  But as for the work-plan and the

10     previous agreements, the chief of the centre had that.  I was in

11     attendance as well as the head of the crime service, Zivko Bojic.  And

12     Zoran Josic, the head of the crime service, was also present and we

13     wanted to clarify this plan.  I know there were certain activities that

14     were engaged and some individuals were detained.  But I haven't

15     previously seen this decision.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the sake of the

17     transcript, perhaps this document could be marked for identification now.

18     And then we could see whether Ms. Korner has any comments to make a

19     little later.

20             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] ... no objection to that

21     course, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated].

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 1D199, marked

25     for identification.

Page 7806

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] The following document that I would like to show

 3     you is 79, tab 79.  1D00-1723 is the number of the document.

 4             It's a criminal report dated the 25th of June, 1992, sent to the

 5     public prosecutor's office, signed by the chief of the centre,

 6     Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.  It has to do with criminal proceedings instituted

 7     against Branko Palackovic and several other unidentified perpetrators for

 8     six crimes against general security.  The description says that on a

 9     number of occasions in April, they inflicted damage on restaurants and

10     other facilities, and this was done by -- owned by Muslims and Albanians.

11     Mahmut Ganic, Limani Safik, Hidic Refik are mentioned.  The citizen

12     Kemal, Duzel Irfan, and so on.

13             Do you remember from the operations plan that one of the items

14     had to do with arresting the group led by Palackovic, Branko.  Do you

15     remember?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Do you remember that Mr. Palackovic was arrested?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In 1992?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I assume that this criminal report and all the documents attached

22     to it are documents you are not familiar with.  You haven't seen them?

23        A.   No, I haven't.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] For this reason I would suggest

25     that this document also be marked for identification.  If there are no

Page 7807

 1     objections.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3             MS. KORNER:  No [Microphone not activated].

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 1D200, marked

 5     for identification.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please have a look at document 76,

 8     tab 76, 1D00-1503 is the number of the document.

 9             This document is a criminal report dated the 23rd of June, 1992.

10     And yet again, it's a criminal report filed against Palackovic, Brane

11     Palackovic and his group that consists of 14 known and over 15 unknown

12     individuals.  But in this case, it concerns 37 crimes listed in the -- in

13     the charges on page 3 in the e-court system and in your document.

14             Can you see that?

15        A.   Yes, I can.

16        Q.   Since you have already previously confirmed that you know that

17     Mr. Brane Palackovic was arrested, as well as his group, I assume that

18     this also concerns this document.  Isn't that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Have a look at page 3.  You have the handwritten number 03 that

21     has been added, and then it says that on that occasion they physically

22     injured Kobilj, Dzevad.  And afterwards, a certain Sinisa Milovic used a

23     pistol with which he killed Mustafa Smailagic, the son of Zaim, born in

24     1942, in Banja Luka.

25             Can you see that?

Page 7808

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In both cases, Muslims were the injured parties; isn't that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Item 2, it says Obradovac Midhat was -- had his papers controlled

 6     and about 270.000 dinars were confiscated from him.  Can you see that

 7     under item 2?

 8        A.   Yes, I can.

 9        Q.   Again, this is Muslim who is the injured party; isn't that

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Then under item 3, Enis Mahmutovic's papers were checked, after

13     which some of his money was taken, 120.000 dinars, 200 Swiss francs,

14     50 German marks.  His vehicle was confiscated, and he was hit with a

15     rifle, with a rifle-butt.  This person is also a Muslim person.  He is

16     the injured party.  Isn't that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Items 4 and 5 on the following page, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and up to

19     12, up to item 12, all these individuals are Muslims, all these injured

20     parties are Muslims.  Zulic Enver, Laha Marija, Kemal Duzel,

21     Sjenica Jelenko, Muharem Sibic, Alija Bojic, son of Hasan.

22        A.   Jelenko Sjenica, that's the perpetrator.

23        Q.   I apologise.

24        A.   Duzel, Kemal, yes; Zulic, Enver, yes.

25        Q.   So as not to waste any time, if you have a look at this document,

Page 7809

 1     the injured parties are mainly Muslims and Croats but there are also some

 2     injured parties who are Serbs.  And one crime report covers all of them.

 3     One crime report against Brane Palackovic and his group.  Is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Since this criminal report was sent from the CSB and it was

 7     signed by the chief of the centre, Stojan Zupljanin, I assume that this

 8     document as well as the documents attached to the criminal report are not

 9     documents that you have already seen.  Is that correct?

10        A.   I haven't seen them.  But I'm looking for the end of the criminal

11     report.

12        Q.   The end of the report is on page 12.

13        A.   Yes, you're quite right, the chief of the centre signed it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  If there are no objections, I

16     would like to request that this document also be marked for

17     identification.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 1D201, marked for

21     identification, Your Honours.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   When we had a look at the operative plan, do you remember that

24     reference was made to fires, to planting explosive devices and so on and

25     so forth.  Please have a look at tab 89.  1D00-5252 is the number.  It's

Page 7810

 1     a document dated the 15th of July, 1992, signed by the chief of the

 2     centre, and the title is:  "An analysis of fires in the Territory of the

 3     Municipality of Banja Luka for the first six months of the year 1992."

 4        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-5252.  We have the English

 6     version up on the screen.  Yes, thank you.

 7        Q.   On page 3 of this document, it says that a total of 43 fires were

 8     caused; 17 were intentionally caused; 16 caused by accident; and in the

 9     case of ten fires, the reasons for these fires are unknown.

10             Item 4 of this document, the last sentence says that the

11     ethnicity of the owners of damaged facilities -- well, 8 Muslims

12     [Realtime transcript read in error "militaries"], five Croats, one Serb,

13     and three others.  That's the ethnicity of the injured parties.

14             Can you see that?

15        A.   Yes, I can.

16        Q.   On the last page --

17        A.   This is the second page not the third page.

18        Q.   Very well.  And on the last page of the document, it says the

19     employees of the crime service in the CSB have identified the

20     perpetrators of two cases of arson at the Centar kebab restaurant owned

21     by Safik Limani, and [indiscernible] florist shop owned by Mahmut Ganic,

22     and a criminal report regarding this has been submitted against

23     Brane Palackovic.  Can you see this?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] On page 81, line 8, when I was

Page 7811

 1     referring to the document and to the ethnicity of the owners of certain

 2     buildings that were destroyed, I said that there were eight Muslims,

 3     five Croats, one Serb, and three others.  I see it says "eight

 4     militaries" here.  This is obviously a mistake.

 5        Q.   Have you seen this document entitled "Analysis of fires"?

 6        A.   I can't remember but it was probably received.

 7        Q.   Well, given that the CSB has certain duties, well, the CSB would

 8     forward such reports to all SJBs.  Isn't that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   But since you can't remember --

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

12     also suggest that we mark this document for identification.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 1D202, marked for

15     identification, Your Honours.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] To illustrate what we have been discussing, I

18     have in mind, in fact, your claim that, in 1992, the SJB and CSB in

19     Banja Luka processed all crimes regardless of the ethnicity of the

20     victims or the perpetrators.

21             Please have a look at document under tab 61.  1D03-1775 is the

22     number of the document.  It's a report on the arrest -- on the arrest of

23     certain individuals.  17th of April, 1992, is the date.  Signed by

24     Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, the chief of the centre.  He is informing the

25     investigative judge that in accordance with the Law on Criminal

Page 7812

 1     Procedure, detention has been ordered for up to three days for

 2     Damir Halilovic, son of Bajro because there are grounds to believe that

 3     he committed the crime of murder.

 4             Can you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   On the following page, it's page 2 in the e-court system, we have

 7     the crime report against Halilovic, Damir, because it is suspected that

 8     he committed the crime of murder against Enis Krkic.  Enis Krkic, son of

 9     Hajro, born on the 3rd of November, 1950, in Banja Luka.

10             Can you see that?

11        A.   Yes, I can.

12        Q.   Sir, in this case, the perpetrator in the crime are Muslims?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And this crime was processed in accordance with the Code on

15     Criminal Procedure?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Tell me, in the documents I can see that this case was mainly

18     dealt with - it's on page 5 of the document - by an authorised official.

19     It's an Official Note.  It was signed by a certain -- it's page 5, if you

20     have a look at the whole document.  Page 5.  It's an Official Note signed

21     by an authorised official whose name is Adem Alisa?

22        A.   I can see that.

23        Q.   Do you know this person, Mr. Alisa?  He was probably an

24     inspector.

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He was an inspector in the crime

Page 7813

 1     department.

 2        Q.   And Muslim?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   On the 17th of April, 1992?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections.

 8        Q.   And I assume that you haven't previously seen this document since

 9     it was signed by the chief of the CSB.

10        A.   Yes, yes.  Well, I didn't look at such documents.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  So if there are no objections, I

12     would also like to request that this document be marked for

13     identification.

14             JUDGE HALL:  So marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit 1D203, marked for

16     identification, Your Honours.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Please have a look at the document under tab 62

19     now.  1D00-5478 is the number of the document.  It's a crime report.

20             On page 2 you will see that this report was filed by the

21     Banja Luka SJB.  Your chief of the department, Zoran Josic, signed it.

22             Have a look at the following page.  It was provided to the public

23     prosecutor's office in Banja Luka.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D5478.  5478.  Or is it 5978; I do

25     apologise.

Page 7814

 1        Q.   It's a criminal report against Jasmin Hajric.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, 5978.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Can you see this criminal report?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 5        Q.   The criminal report says that he's a recidivist, a person who had

 6     been recorded at the public security station before as bent on crime.

 7        A.   Yes, it says so.

 8        Q.   And in the form of the criminal report, he says -- it says he is

 9     a fugitive.

10        A.   I can't see that.

11        Q.   You see his personal details.  It says where he served in the

12     army, Bileca and Bitolj, rank sergeant, and then he says, Currently at

13     large.

14        A.   Yes, I can see it.

15        Q.   Jasmin Hajic is without doubt a Muslim, as the criminal report

16     indicates?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And it's filed against him for the crime of robbery against

19     Niko Cosic, aged 73.  From the pocket of this man's shirt, Jasmin Hajric

20     took a sum of money.  You remember that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Niko Cosic could be a Croat, judging by the last name?

23        A.   Yes, it is certainly a Croat.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Since this is a document of the public security

25     station Banja Luka, signed by your chief of section, chief of department,

Page 7815

 1     Zoran Josic --

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I hope there is no objection to the

 3     admission of this document.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit 1D204, Your Honours.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Now please turn to tab 63.  The document is

 9     1D00-5968, dated 18 May 1992.

10             It's a record of on-site investigation sent to the public

11     prosecutor's office with the Official Note attached, signed by department

12     chief, Zoran Josic.

13             Can you see the document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   It's a case where the injured party is Zlatko Milovac.  I suppose

16     a Serb.

17        A.   I'm not sure.

18        Q.   The incident happened at 1.00 a.m. in Banja Luka when

19     unidentified perpetrators using automatic fire-arms caused damage to a

20     private business called Ring in Banja Luka.

21             You see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You will see on the last page of the document is the

24     Official Note made by an authorised officer on the 14th of April,

25     April 1992, from a certain Teufik Dzambegovic - I believe a Muslim - who

Page 7816

 1     was a security guard in this catering establishment that was targeted,

 2     and he who was on the scene.

 3        A.   Yes, can I see that.

 4        Q.   So in this case, the injured party is either a Serb or a Croat,

 5     and the unidentified perpetrators were in camouflage uniform.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  If there is no objection, since

 8     this is a document of your public security station, I would like to

 9     tender it.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D205, Your Honours.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  I'm sorry.

13             The next tab is 68.  1D00-6660.

14             Sorry.  Let's move to 70.  1D00-1291.  I apologise for this.

15        Q.   Again, it's a report on arrest and conveyance, dated

16     18 June 1992.  The signature is that of chief of the centre,

17     Stojan Zupljanin, submitted to the security services centre in

18     Banja Luka.  And it's a report and the arrest and conveyance of a certain

19     Dragoslav Kuzmic, father's name Milorad, mother's name Savka.  Obviously

20     a Serb; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And is he suspected as an accomplice in the crime of murder

23     perpetrated by four unidentified persons, three of them in camouflage

24     uniform, when Mustafa Smailagic, son of Zaim, was shot dead with two

25     bullets.

Page 7817

 1             You remember in the operative work-plan one of the items was to

 2     establish the identity of perpetrators of the murder of this person

 3     Smailagic Mustafa?

 4        A.   Yes, I think remember.

 5        Q.   Mustafa Smailagic is obviously indisputably a Muslim?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And this document, the criminal report is dated 18 June 1992;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.  Since this document, the criminal report

11     and the attached documentation emanate from the chief of the centre, I

12     don't suppose you have seen it before.

13        A.   No, I haven't.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I suggest that this document be

15     MFI'd, if there is no objection from the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE HALL:  So marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit 1D206, marked for

18     identification, Your Honours.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Now I should kindly to ask you to open tab 72.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, you probably couldn't complete another

22     line of questions before the time for the adjournment in less than a

23     minute, so ...

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  I was trying to be

25     as -- as -- as -- as possible to use as much time as I can.  But I

Page 7818

 1     understand and I follow.  Thank you very much.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  The -- so we take the adjournment and we reconvene,

 3     if memory serves, in Courtroom III, at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.

 4             Mr. Tutus, I remind you of what I would have said earlier about

 5     not communicating with anyone during the adjournment.

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of March,

 8                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.