1 Tuesday, 27 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of the
11 Prosecution Alexis Demirdjian; assisted by Crispian Smith, our case
12 manager; and Mr. Tom Hannis, Senior Trial Attorney.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
14 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery, for Stanisic Defence.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
17 Defence, Igor Pantelic.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 us, would the usher please escort the witness to the stand.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, sir. Can you please give us your
23 solemn declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
2 Good morning, sir. What is your name, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miroslav Vidic.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what is your date of birth?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 27th of August, 1948.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And your profession, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm retired now.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: And before that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used to work in prison, and I'm a
10 teacher by profession.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And what is your ethnicity, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Serb.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Did you ever testify before for this
14 Tribunal or for a court in your country about these matters?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not here. As for my country, there
16 was some divorce case, and there was some squabble about a flat.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. But not to do with the matters that we
18 deal with here in the Tribunal.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Now, Mr. Vidic, as a witness for the
21 Prosecution, the Prosecutor will start asking questions. After the
22 Prosecutor, the -- both of the Defence teams, on that side, will
23 cross-examine you. And there will be re-direct examination, eventually
24 new questions from the Prosecutor. And after that, eventually the Judges
25 could have some questions for you.
1 We sit by half a day's hearing; that is, from 9.00 to quarter to
2 2.00; or, in the afternoon, from a quarter past 2.00 to 7.00. That's a
3 long time. But there will be -- normally, there will be breaks every,
4 more or less, one hour and a half. There will be a 20 minutes' break.
5 That's necessary for all kinds of reasons, interpreters, the tapes, for
6 the record, et cetera.
7 If you feel any problem and you're tired -- you need -- you need
8 to have a small break and a rest, please tell us, and we will accommodate
10 You understand?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Hannis.
14 Im sorry, Mr. Demirdjian.
15 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise to my learned friend
16 Mr. Demirdjian. Just I would like to put on the record objection of the
17 Defence. This witness gave interview on the 24th of November, 2009, and
18 in the presence of Mr. Demirdjian on the question of investigator
19 Michael Koehler, and I will quote his -- Mr. Koehler's statement to this
21 "Based upon information in possession of the Tribunal, the
22 Prosecutor of the Tribunal believed you may be a suspect who is
23 responsible for committing acts by may chargeable under the Tribunal
24 statute. However, the ICTY is not going to prosecute you or investigate
25 you in regard to these suspected acts. Do you understand?"
1 And Mr. Vidic answer was yes.
2 Just for the record, Your Honours, it is a practice which is
3 absolutely unacceptable from the point of view of the Defence, practice
4 of the Prosecution, and the -- we raised that issue on many occasions
5 before. I don't want to raise that issue to discuss, but just to put on
6 the record. Thank you.
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, indeed this is a matter that has been
8 raised many times before. I don't understand why Mr. Pantelic finds it
9 necessary to put it on the record in front of this witness, at this time.
10 If he wants to have further discussion about it, we can have the witness
11 removed. But we have explained why the Prosecution, pursuant to the
12 rules, made these kinds of advices to witnesses in that position. There
13 is no purpose in serving this expect to cause some kind of disturbance to
14 the witness.
15 MR. PANTELIC: It is totally unacceptable statement of my friend
16 Mr. Hannis, and we know that OTP is not entitled to conduct any
17 investigation due to the exit strategy of the Tribunal, and in spite of
18 this fact --
19 JUDGE HALL
20 serious exploration, and as both you and Mr. Hannis have said this is a
21 matter that has been raised before, then perhaps we should do it in the
22 proper manner, but certainly not in the presence of the witness.
23 So unless there is some good reason for not proceeding with the
24 examination of this witness, we would suspend any further discussion of
25 this issue.
1 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I begin, Your Honours?
3 JUDGE HALL
4 WITNESS: MIROSLAV VIDIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidic. I apologise for that introduction but I
8 will begin with my questions.
9 You already stated your name and your date of birth. Could you
10 tell the Trial Chamber about your educational background, please.
11 A. I finished the faculty of industrial pedagogy, and I am the
12 professor of mechanics and technology.
13 Q. And what year did you finish your studies?
14 A. In 1977.
15 Q. And what level of studies did you achieve?
16 A. Bachelor of arts.
17 Q. Very well. Is it correct to say that after university you worked
18 in a prison, Goli Otok, between the years 1977 and 1979 in Croatia
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And your role there was an educator; is that correct?
21 A. No. I worked there as an educator. But since the correction
22 facility had its own school, I also worked part-time as a teacher there.
23 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
24 Is it correct that after two years in Goli Otok you went do Doboj
25 where you were teaching for four months in a school of mechanical
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And it is correct to say that on the 1st of April 1980 you were
4 employed and hired by the Doboj Central Prison.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which year you retired?
7 A. On the 31st of December, 2008.
8 Q. When you were hired in 1980, what were you hired as? What was
9 your position?
10 A. An educator.
11 Q. And can you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber what your role
12 consisted of as an educator.
13 A. I worked in the district prison as a person who receives the
14 convicts and through whom the convicts exercise their rights and, at the
15 same time, try to rehabilitate, in terms of me instructing them to
16 maintain contacts with their families, if these were disruptive families,
17 and in that manner sort of prepare them for the time when they are
18 released from prison.
19 Q. And you held on to this position until the outbreak of the
20 conflict in 1992; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'd like to move on to the structure of the prison. Can you,
23 first of all, tell us, in relation to the Doboj Central Prison, what type
24 of prison it was?
25 A. It was a district prison, according to the categorisation of
1 correctional and prison facility in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was a closed
2 type facility. Remand custody and normal imprisonment, up to six months
3 were carried out in that prison. The minister, or rather, the secretary
4 at the time, was entitled to distribute the convicts. Sometimes it
5 happened that serving prison sentence were people who were sentenced to
6 more than six months of imprisonment.
7 Q. Now, you told us what type of prison it was and what type of
8 prisoners were held there. Could you explain to us the structure of the
9 prison, in terms of management positions. Who would we see at the top
10 levels of the prison?
11 A. The governor was at the head of the prison. Then there were
12 heads of services.
13 Q. And just a clarification here. The governor was at the head of
14 the prison. What did you mean by the governor?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It's a British word for
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. It has been clarified now on the
19 Q. What are the different services inside of the prison?
20 A. There was the guard service, the rehabilitation service, the
21 legal and administrative and personnel service, and the economic unit.
22 As part of the administrative and legal service was the medical unit and
23 the financial unit.
24 Q. You mentioned the economic unit. Could you expand on that?
25 A. The economic service was in charge of conducting labour therapy
1 for the convicts.
2 Q. And did this economic unit, was it known by another name?
3 A. Spreca.
4 Q. And was this unit held in the same facility as the prison, in the
5 same building?
6 A. No. It was dislocated, some 3 kilometres from the facility.
7 Q. Thank you. What was the capacity of the prison, in terms of
8 numbers of convicts and detainees?
9 A. There were certain quotas which says that each convict is
10 entitled to four square metres or eight cubic metres of space. However,
11 when asked about the capacity, one of my former wardens said, Nobody was
12 sent back due to the lack of space.
13 So according to the present standards in place, the capacity for
14 serving sentences and for custody is about 100 persons in total.
15 Q. And just to come back to an answer you gave earlier --
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. Yes.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. 8, 4/5, I believe the witness
18 says, No one was sent due to lack of space.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, that is correct, that is what I heard as
21 Q. Mr. Vidic, just to clarify an answer you provided us earlier you
22 mentioned that the economic unit was also known as Spreca. When we talk
23 about Spreca we only refer to that economic unit that was 3 kilometres
24 away from the prison building. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, in due course, I will make some
2 applications because the adjudicated facts may have some confusion about
3 what the prison was called exactly. But that is a point I will raise in
4 due course.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, where was the prison situated in Doboj?
6 A. It was on the main street now called St. Sava Street, formally
7 called Marshal Tito Street. But I'm not sure about the number. It is
8 either 12 or 14.
9 Q. And when you say that it was in the main street in terms of the
10 town itself, how would you locate the prison? In which parts of town was
12 A. It's in down-town, the very centre of the town.
13 Q. What building were adjacent -- what buildings were adjacent to
14 the prison?
15 A. There was a bank, a MUP building, a court building, the
16 prosecutor's office. Those are the adjacent buildings. Behind, were
17 residential houses.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: While I'm asking the next question, perhaps 65
19 ter 3419.29 could be pulled up.
20 Q. Mr. Vidic, was the prison connected to any other building?
21 A. Since it was built sometime in 1986 or 1987, it was connected to
22 the court-house.
23 Q. Very well.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we saw this map yesterday, but I
25 will ask different questions about it.
1 With the help of the usher, perhaps, if the witness could mark
2 this aerial image.
3 Q. First of all, Mr. Vidic, do you recognise this image?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Okay. Very quickly with the letter A, if you could just mark the
6 prison building for us.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And you told us that it was connected to the court-house. Could
9 you show us where that connection was. And mark it with a letter B.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And could you explain to us how it was connected to the
13 A. Up until 1986 or 1987, the court-house and the prosecutor's
14 office were in one building, but a detached building. More due to the
15 requirements of the court, they built a link with the prison building on
16 the ground floor. That was the only connection. And in the section
17 where these two buildings meet, a door was open, and the key to this door
18 was only held by the prison personnel. It was used in the event of
19 special security reasons when some people had to be escorted to the
20 court. But as far as I know, it's never been used.
21 Q. And below the building you marked with the letter B, there are
22 two other buildings. Could you tell what these are.
23 A. I didn't understand your question. In front?
24 Q. Just -- well, on the image just below the building marked with
25 the letter B.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Connected to the building with the letter B, just below it, what
3 was that building right there?
4 A. Right. That's the court-house and the prosecutor's offices.
5 Q. Could you mark that with the letter C.
6 A. [Marks]
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And if we could seize that image, I'd like to
8 tender it.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1303, Your Honours.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
12 Q. Mr. Vidic, I'd like to turn on to the record-keeping in the
14 Could you explain to the Court how would the prison record every
15 prisoner serving a sentence?
16 A. The prescribed records of convicts were kept in the form of a
17 register; the birth and deaths register, and the personal file of the
19 Q. And would such a record also include the decision upon which the
20 convict was ordered to be detained?
21 A. In order for a convict to be admitted to serve their sentence,
22 before the convict shows up at the prison, the court has to send the
23 prison an order.
24 Q. And in relation to these records, was there also a record for
25 detainees, non-convicted persons?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, according to the procedure, according to the law, how long
3 could a detainee be held in the prison?
4 A. Sentences up to six months. I'm not sure, in fact. I told you,
5 I worked as an educator, and the remand prison was managed by the head of
6 the guard service.
7 Q. I apologise, maybe my question was not clear. I was talking
8 about the detainees; people who were detained not convicts.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe the witness -- the witness answered
10 properly to your question. It is just -- it was recorded. But I don't
11 have my the phones on -- earphone off -- on, so I don't know what was
12 translated. But he was actually referring to the detention not
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
15 Q. On -- could you clarify, Mr. Vidic, on whose -- you told us that
16 you would need a court's order to detain someone. How would that order
17 come to the prison? How would it reach you?
18 A. Well, that depends who was sending a person. It could be the
19 MUP. The MUP could detain a person in remand up to three days. Such
20 orders were delivered by the MUP.
21 For longer detention, the MUP would apply to the prosecutor's
22 office, and the prosecutor's office would decide on a prolongation, or it
23 could be the court.
24 Q. Now, in relation to the courts, what responsibility did the
25 courts have over the well-being of prisoners inside the prison?
1 A. None.
2 Q. Would --
3 A. In fact, I don't understand the question.
4 Q. Let me clarify it for you.
5 Would the court be informed of the conditions in the prison.
6 A. There was legislation stipulating the conditions that a
7 correctional/penal facility had to provided and ensure, and there was
8 nothing controversial about that.
9 In regard to any problem with any detainee or prisoner, the
10 prison was required to inform the competent court. In addition to that,
11 the president of the district court had a duty to visit the prison.
12 Q. How often would the president of the court visit the prison?
13 A. Perhaps once a month; perhaps more often.
14 Q. Now, during -- if you're holding a detainee, and that this
15 detainee is under investigation, were there premises in the prison for
16 visits and interviews?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And if a detainee was to be interviewed, would it normally take
19 place in the prison, or would it take place elsewhere?
20 A. In the prison.
21 Q. Could a detainee be taken out of the prison for interrogation?
22 A. Yes. On orders of the court, or whoever detained him.
23 Q. And what was the procedure to have an interview with a detainee
24 outside the prison?
25 A. The court would issue a warrant for a detainee to be taken out,
1 and the guard would lead him out. That would be mostly to the
2 court-house or, if a detainee had health problems, he would be taken to
3 the health centre or the hospital; but, again, with the approval of the
4 court. Without the approval of the court, it was impossible to take
5 anyone out of the prison.
6 Q. If the police wished to interview a detainee, would it also need
7 a court order?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there a difference for convicts and detainees in the
11 A. There was. It was the prison administration who was responsible
12 for convicts. As far as remand was concerned, the administration of the
13 prison was just servicing the court.
14 Q. And if the police wished to interview a -- a person on remand,
15 would it to have to go through the court?
16 A. If it was remand in custody up to three days, that was in the
17 competence of the police, the MUP. So the MUP did not need anyone's
18 approval. If it was longer for -- than three days, then the court had to
19 give approval to the police.
20 Q. And just briefly, if could you explain the procedure for someone
21 who is in detention up to three days, what would the procedure for the
22 police to take out the detainee and interrogate or interview him?
23 A. They would bring a warrant from the MUP, properly phrased and
24 signed, and submit it.
25 Q. Very well. I'd like to turn reporting.
1 Who would the prison warden be responsible to, who would he
2 report to?
3 A. In those times, to the secretariat and the republican secretary
4 for justice. Now it is called ministry and minister.
5 Q. Was the warden duty-bound to send periodical reports to the
6 ministry or to the secretariat?
7 A. The warden was duty-bound to send annual reports. In addition to
8 that, he was duty-bound to inform the secretariat about any and all
9 changes occurring, such as injuries to prisoners, the use of force,
10 epidemics, et cetera.
11 Q. With regard to the use of force, could you expand on that. Would
12 that be reported to the ministry annually, or would that be on another
14 A. That was reported immediately to the ministry, by telephone, as
15 soon as it was found out. And then after all the information was
16 collected, a written report would be sent.
17 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what procedure was in
18 place in the situation where force was applied against a prisoner?
19 A. As soon as information was received on application of force, the
20 guard would report it to the warden, and the warden would start
21 disciplinary proceedings.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian, could we just clarify which
23 ministry we're talking about. Is it the Ministry of Justice or the
24 Ministry of Interior?
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: He answered it earlier, but I can clarify again
1 if you wish. He said Secretariat for justice at page 14, line 21.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I think it is still on the screen.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Oh, yes, sorry. Thank you very much.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
6 Q. Mr. Vidic, you just explained how the procedure would take place.
7 You said the warden would start disciplinary proceedings. Could you
8 expand on that, please.
9 A. Based on any information collected by a head of the service, the
10 head of service would submit all the information to the warden, and the
11 warden would then decide if there were the necessary elements to start
12 disciplinary proceedings.
13 Q. Who would be involved in the disciplinary proceedings?
14 A. There was a disciplinary commission made up of prison employees.
15 Q. Was there anybody from other institutions that would be involved,
16 or is it only prison employees?
17 A. Only prison employees.
18 Q. Over and above disciplinary measures, could criminal measures be
20 A. We did not have such a case, but the possibility existed. If
21 there were the required elements, a criminal report could be made.
22 Q. And who would be involved in preparing this criminal report?
23 A. The legal officer from the legal and administrative service.
24 Q. And who would he send this report to?
25 A. I'm telling you, we didn't have such a case, but I suppose to the
1 prosecutor's office.
2 Q. Very well. In relation to the records of the prison you
3 mentioned earlier, could you tell us within the prison who maintained the
4 records: One for the records of convicts; and, two, records for persons
5 on remand.
6 A. The register for detainees on remand were kept by the head of the
7 guard service. And the register of convicts was kept by the officer in
8 charge of execution of sentences.
9 Q. And was there a duty officer at the entrance of the prison?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did he maintain a log-book?
12 A. He kept a duty log-book. Duty service log-book.
13 Q. And, to your knowledge, what would be included in this log-book?
14 A. Who was admitted for serving a sentence, who was admitted for
15 custody and remand, who was released from detention. Any and all
16 important observations would be entered by the duty officer during his
17 tour of duty, because the guard service worked 20 hours a day. And in
18 the absence of the warden, which means after normal working hours, the
19 duty officer at the prison was responsible for the establishment of the
20 prison and who stands in for the warden.
21 Q. Mr. Vidic, I would like now to turn to the events in 1991 and
23 First of all, if you could tell the Court during the multi-party
24 elections, did you personally join any political party?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And after the elections, did you, at any time, join any political
3 A. No.
4 Q. In 1991, you were still in your role -- in your position as an
5 educator; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In 1991, who was the prison warden?
8 A. We had an acting warden at the time, Mirko --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last name.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the same time, he was head of
11 the guard service.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
13 Q. Mr. Vidic, the last name of the warden was not recorded on the
14 transcript. Would you just repeat his last name, please.
15 A. Mirko Slavuljica.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe -- you should ask the witness again to
17 repeat, because -- just the last name. It is in the record.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is in the record.
19 Q. While I'm asking the next question, we could pull up 65 ter 3528,
21 Mr. Vidic, you told us that Mr. Slavuljica was the acting warden.
22 Could you just explain to us the "acting."
23 A. It was some kind of provisional measure, pending the appointment
24 of a new warden.
25 Q. Now can you see the document on the screen. This is a document
1 that I've shown you before.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go to the bottom of the page in the
3 B/C/S version. And that would be page 2 in the English version.
4 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Whose signature is it?
7 A. Mirko Slavuljica's.
8 Q. Okay. And it -- what is the title? It reads there, indeed, that
9 he is acting prison warden. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go back to the top of the document,
12 and that's page 1 in English.
13 Q. Could you tell us under what circumstances this document was
15 A. Mirko was a reserve officer, and he had received a call-up into
16 the reserve from the army.
17 Q. And by this document, what functions and what role are attributed
18 to you?
19 A. I was put in charge of performing the duties of a -- of the
20 warden and making sure that the establishment is run properly. This was
21 kind of a forced decision, because in the job staffing specification
22 there is no such position as deputy warden.
23 Q. Now, at the time, you had you seen this document?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, can I ask this document to be
2 JUDGE HALL
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1304, Your Honours.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
5 Q. Mr. Vidic, after Mr. Slavuljica was called up to the army
6 reserve, was he still present at the prison?
7 A. He would come by from time to time.
8 Q. And was he still fulfilling his functions as warden or acting
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when you say "from time to time," could you just give the
12 Trial Chamber of how frequently he would be at the prison.
13 A. It would be pure speculation now, after all this time. But he
14 came by -- he's a responsible kind of person, and he cared a lot to have
15 the institution run properly, so he did spend -- spend a lot of time with
16 us, despite the fact that he was in the reserve.
17 Q. In 1991, how many staff members did you have in the prison?
18 A. It's difficult to be precise about that, but it was already a
19 time when the whole state was in crisis and orders were coming from the
20 secretariat to down-size. So how many staff we had in which period, I
21 couldn't say for sure, but we had between 36 and 39 staff members.
22 Q. Could you tell the Court what was the ethnic makeup of your staff
23 in 1991.
24 A. You're asking too much. I really can't say. But I can say that
25 we did take care to maintain an ethnic balance so that it be
1 representative of the population. But since I wasn't directly
2 responsible for that sort of work, I can't say whether our ethnic
3 structure reflected the ethnic composition of the municipality or the
4 region. But it was certainly proper ethnic representation.
5 Q. And could you just explain to the Trial Chamber when you say
6 "maintaining the ethnic balance," based on what did you maintain this
7 balance, to your knowledge?
8 A. Well, the ethnic composition of both the municipality and the
9 region were known facts. And some time in 1991, although I'm telling
10 you, I didn't have any involvement in such work directly, a medical
11 technician was being hired, and it was said, at the time, that it had to
12 be a Serb.
13 Q. Now, before I move on to the events in 1992, could you briefly
14 explain to us how many meals per day would be provided to the prisoners
15 inside the prison?
16 A. Three meals. And convicts who worked, as it was stipulated by
17 the law, received an additional fourth meal. But since it was not
18 exactly stipulated what exactly constituted hard physical labour, this
19 fourth meal was given to everyone.
20 Q. And could you describe to the Court the uniform of the guards in
21 your prison.
22 A. The uniform was dark blue, and the shirt was light blue, and the
23 tie was of dark blue colour, and they had a hat on their heads.
24 Q. How did this uniform compare to the regular uniform of the
1 A. The police had some sort of light greyish colour uniform.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now, Your Honours, we have adjudicated facts
4 about the start of the conflict in early 1992, so I will skip to part and
5 go straight to the events of May 1992, with your leave.
6 Mr. Vidic, could you tell us when roughly you heard about the
7 beginning of the conflict in Doboj?
8 A. It was on or about the 3rd of May, in the morning. It could have
9 been between 6.00 and 7.00.
10 Q. How did you come to learn about it?
11 A. Since it was a holiday, the 1st of May, I was at my
12 father-in-law's summer cottage, and a colleague of mine, a guard, knew
13 where the cottage was, and he came there and informed me.
14 Q. And where was the summer cottage?
15 A. It was in the village of Strijezevica
17 Q. Now what happened when your colleague informed you? What
18 happened next?
19 A. Well, I immediately went to the prison. There, I saw that this
20 huge gate was open. And in the lounge, or in the hall, were people in
21 camouflage uniforms and painted faces. I don't know at this moment, but
22 I think I saw two or three guards as well, inside the building.
23 Q. On your way from the summer cottage to the prison, did you notice
24 anything specific?
25 A. I did not notice anything of the kind. Because it was a Sunday,
1 it was holiday, it was pretty early in the morning, and due to all these
2 factors, I didn't see or notice anything.
3 Q. Did you have any difficulty getting to the prison?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, you told us that you saw individuals in camouflage uniform
6 and painted faces. How many of these individuals did you see?
7 A. I couldn't tell you. To me, it was a shock to see them there.
8 Because this institution was of a strictly closed type, it was highly
9 respected in the town. The gate was never opened, and, on that day, when
10 I came, I see the gate wide open, and I see a lot of strangers there.
11 Q. Were these people armed?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you describe to us the situation inside the prison, when you
14 see these men.
15 A. I tried to pass through as quickly as possible, pass by them and
16 reach my office. There, I was told that three guards had been locked up
17 by these men. I couldn't get any information from the employees of ours
18 that I saw downstairs. So I went myself to see my colleagues in other
19 offices because I heard that they sent a message asking to talk to me
20 immediately. They asked me what was going on and what was happening, but
21 I wasn't able to provide them with any answers. I gave all the
22 cigarettes I have to the guard called Braderic, and I promised them that
23 I would do my best to find with the MUP what this was all about and that
24 I was going to notify Slavuljica.
25 Q. And what happened to Braderic? Where did you see him?
1 A. He was locked up in a cell, in the custody section of the
3 Q. Was he the only guard to be in custody?
4 A. No, there were two more.
5 Q. And what was their ethnic background?
6 A. Muslims.
7 Q. Did you see other detainees in the prison?
8 A. There were very few detainees at the time, which is immediately
9 before the war. Some amnesties were issued before the war which greatly
10 affected the numbers. The numbers were drastically reduced. There were
11 only a couple of people in prison serving sentences.
12 Q. And on the 3rd of May, when you arrived at the prison, how many
13 people were imprisoned there, to your knowledge?
14 A. I cannot say for sure, but there were no more than 15 of them,
15 definitely. Both among those who were in custody and both among convicts
16 serving their sentences.
17 Q. You told us that you saw these individuals in camouflage uniform.
18 Did you -- were you able to tell if they had a leader?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, you told us that you spoke to Braderic; you gave him your
21 cigarettes, and you would do your best to speak to the MUP and to notify
23 What, if anything, did you do about this?
24 A. Yes. I tried to call Slavuljica, but I failed to establish a
25 connection. Then I headed off towards MUP to find someone there, someone
1 who -- who was a high-ranking official. Also, in this reception area in
2 the MUP, there was also a large group of men in camouflage uniforms, and
3 since the MUP management were on the upper storey, these men on the
4 ground floor did not let me pass through. Therefore, I went back to
5 prison, called Slavuljica again, and finally managed to get in touch with
6 him sometime after 9.00. And Slavuljica came out relatively quickly.
7 Q. When Slavuljica arrived at the prison, what did he do?
8 A. We first briefed him about the current situation, and he
9 immediately went to the MUP. I don't know who he talked there to, and
10 then, after that, he returned to us again. Our three officers were
11 released from the cells, our three employees.
12 Q. Now, when Mr. Slavuljica arrived, you said that you briefed him
13 and he went to the MUP. Did you see those three guards released?
14 A. The custody cells are on the upper storey, and I saw them later
15 in the ground floor offices. And I spent some time with them.
16 Q. Did they tell you if they were given any reasons for being put in
17 those cells?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And in relation to the MUP building you tried to go to, was this
20 -- which MUP building were you talking about?
21 A. There was only one MUP building in Doboj.
22 Q. And that is the one that you explained earlier was next to the
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Now, at the time when you attempted to go to the MUP, did you
1 have in mind someone specific you would like to meet?
2 A. Well, yes, I did. I thought to try and find the chief of the
3 centre, the chief of the station, the chief of the criminal investigation
4 police. Anyone of that status.
5 Q. Did you know these individuals at the time?
6 A. I knew the chief of the centre. I saw him only once, though.
7 As for the chief of the station, I didn't know him.
8 I didn't even know who was at the head of the criminal
9 investigation service.
10 Q. Now, you told us that on that day you must have had, at most,
11 15 detainees. Did those numbers vary on that day and on the following
13 A. It started changing right from the start.
14 On the 3rd of May, they started bringing people in.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian, maybe I missed it, but I would
16 like you to clarify with the witness the reasons why he went to the MUP
17 and -- and my question is really, did he do so because the wardens and
18 the prison guards were employed by the MUP, were they MUP employees, or
19 was it because the prison, as such, was run by the MUP? Or ...
20 What was the purpose of going to the MUP?
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
22 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard Your Honour's [sic] question. What was the
23 purpose of going to the MUP building?
24 A. I went to the MUP building because we were dealing with prison
25 employees who had been on duty the previous night. The prison was never
1 within the management system of the MUP.
2 Q. Now, you're saying that the prison was never within the
3 management system of the MUP. You clarified earlier that you were within
4 the Ministry of Justice. Did you try to go to the court, perhaps, on
5 that day?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, you were telling us that --
8 JUDGE HALL
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 but I'm not clear on the relationship between the MUP, the prison, the
12 Ministry of Justice. If could you assist me there, please.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, yes.
14 Q. Mr. Vidic, could you clarify to the Trial Chamber, first of all,
15 how -- what is the relationship between the MUP and the prison?
16 A. The relationship between the MUP and the prison was such that
17 certain relations were in place, because these are similar institutions
18 but MUP was in charge of security and for combatting crimes; whereas, we,
19 in prison, guarded the felons, tried to rehabilitate and reeducate them,
20 et cetera.
21 So once the MUP finish their part of job, they transfer them to
22 judiciary, and we were the last link in this chain. So the very fact
23 that the police had uniforms, that our guards had uniforms as well, that
24 they were all armed with weapons and batons, the majority of citizens
25 perceived them as police. They just didn't make any distinction. But in
1 reality we were not together, and we did not belong to the same entity.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 that the prison, in terms of the structure of government, that the prison
4 was an autonomous agency and not subordinate to the MUP on the one hand,
5 not subordinate to the Ministry of Justice.
6 Do I get it right?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prison belonged to the Ministry
8 of Justice.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: And the warden and the prison guards were
10 employees of the Ministry of Justice as well?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Ministry of Justice, there
15 was a sector for law enforcement or execution of sanctions, and there was
16 a judiciary section. The minister has an assistant for the execution of
17 criminal sanctions, and he has another assistant for judicial affairs.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: May I -- I'm sorry to -- to pick on this. But
19 could I then revert to my original question. Why did you go to the MUP
20 in order to resolve the problems or the situation that you found in the
21 prison when you came that morning, on the 3rd of May?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to the MUP because my
23 colleagues had told me that people in uniforms entered the building and
24 locked up our three colleagues. That was the reason why I went to the
25 MUP. I didn't go to the court because court had nothing to do with
1 uniformed personnel. There were no uniformed personnel in court at the
2 time. Nowadays, there are policemen in the court-house.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. So what you understood when you came to
4 the prison that morning on the 3rd of May was that the armed persons with
5 camouflage paintings, that they were policemen rather than soldiers. Is
6 that correct?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't think anything. In my
8 view, they were only people in uniforms wearing arms. As to who they
9 were, I didn't think anything at that particular moment. All I knew,
10 that they were armed and they were dressed in uniforms.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, do I understand that you went to the
13 MUP, which is the police, just because the police is the -- is the place
14 to go when there is disturbance in the prison? As -- as a normal citizen
15 would go to the police if there is any other disturbances in his house or
16 something like that.
17 You just went to the police. Is that right?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so. I had no information
19 whatsoever and that is why I went to the MUP, hoping to hearing is about
20 the event from them.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And just to close this chapter before the break.
22 Q. Mr. Vidic, when you saw these people with camouflage uniforms,
23 did you know which unit they belonged to?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know their ethnicity?
1 A. Since upon my arrival in prison, I heard that our three Muslim
2 employees had been incarcerated, it became clear to me that these men in
3 uniform were Serbs.
4 Q. And was there any other distinctive feature about these men,
5 besides the uniform and the paint on the face?
6 A. No. It's difficult for me. Can you imagine how shocked you
7 become if you enter such a room, and it really blurs your memory. All I
8 wanted was to pass by those men as soon as I could. One of the men who
9 was lying on the floor asked me, Who is this guy? And the other one
10 responded, He works here. And I just went through.
11 Q. And one last question before the break. Were they wearing any
12 helmets or any other distinctive features?
13 A. They had hats, they had caps, all of them made of camouflage
15 Q. What kind of hats are we talking about?
16 A. Camouflage hats of the type that I hadn't seen before, except in
17 films. That kind of hats.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May be a good time to take the break,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I continue, Your Honours?
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Vidic, I would like to take you back to the point where you
4 told us that, on the 3rd of May, people were being brought into the
6 Could you tell us what you witnessed on that day.
7 A. At first, I didn't see anything. When we were training to work
8 in a penal/correctional facility and when we were passing specialized
9 exams, we were learning how to work in normal conditions, so it came as a
10 shock to me. I simply withdrew into my office, and I wasn't clear about
11 what was going on.
12 At that time, the greatest burden was on the guards. Later, when
13 Slavuljica came, we had an opportunity to discuss. Something needed to
14 be done; but what and how?
15 Q. Now, in relation to the people being brought in, can you tell us,
16 on the 3rd of May and over the course of the next days, who was being
17 brought in?
18 A. You mean in terms of ethnicity?
19 Q. Let's begin with that.
20 A. They were bringing in Muslims and Croats.
21 Q. And these people -- these Muslims and Croats were from where
23 A. That's hard to say with any certainty. Because in those first
24 days, they were brought without any papers, any documents, any warrants.
25 Q. Were these people from the municipality of Doboj
1 A. I suppose so, but I'm not sure.
2 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
3 A. That very first day, no. But, later on, I did recognise some.
4 There were among them my former schoolmates, and also a former teacher of
5 mine. Some of my work colleagues.
6 Q. And what were these people wearing, the people that were being
7 brought into the prison?
8 A. Civilian clothes.
9 Q. And --
10 A. Although, later on, it was hard to say. Some were also brought
11 wearing military uniforms. But in the first round, they were all wearing
12 civilian clothes.
13 Q. And in relation to the people who were bringing the people, who
14 were they? Who were the people bringing in people in the prison?
15 A. I couldn't tell you that. In those first days, we had absolutely
16 no information. I just told you that Slavuljica and I discussed what to
17 do, and how. At first, we were clueless.
18 Q. And I will not ask you any specific number at this stage. But
19 could you give us, roughly speaking, the number of people that were being
20 brought into the prison in those first few days, in the month of May.
21 A. I couldn't give you even a rough estimate. It would be pure
22 speculation. But there were lists, and there are still lists. So
23 everything is clear. Nothing was concealed.
24 Q. We will look at those lists in a moment.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: The witness answered your question as to who were
3 bringing in the people, and the witness said that, At first they were
4 clueless. That suggests at some point they did find out.
5 Could you just finish --
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- your line of questioning.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
9 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard Your Honour's [sic] question. Could you
10 tell us eventually, if you found out, who were bringing prisoners in your
12 A. No. No, at first, we couldn't find out, because things were
13 happening in the way they were happening. We, nevertheless, wanted to
14 keep some sort of records, and we took a notebook and turned into a
15 register, into which we entered the name and surname of the person who
16 was brought in, the date and hour when they were brought, the date and
17 hour of release. But, at first, we didn't know, and we never found out.
18 Although, there were so many armed groups of all sorts. It was difficult
19 to find out who they were. We never did.
20 Q. Those armed groups that you're referring to eventually -- I know
21 you said in the earlier days you didn't know. Did you eventually found
22 out to which organisation they belonged to and who was bringing
24 A. No, no.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you discover the purpose for which the
1 detainees were brought in to the prison?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: But I thought you said that you registered them.
4 So I assume that you must have had some conversations with them, with the
5 detainees, as to why they were being detained. And were they detained
6 against their will or for their protection? What was the purpose?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not our job. We did not
8 interview them. We did not inquire into that, and physically we were not
9 able to.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
11 Q. Sir, were the prisoners brought in with the adequate paperwork
12 for their detention, as was the case prior to the war? Were they brought
13 in with the proper paperwork?
14 A. No. At first, there was no paperwork at all. There was no
15 warrant, no order sending these people to us. And, later on, I suppose
16 that as we needed time, the police also needed time to consolidate. So,
17 at a later stage, we did get warrants for detention. But those warrants
18 were not filled in properly.
19 Q. And when these people were being brought in the prison, you told
20 us that you have a duty officer at the entrance. Were you ever informed
21 by the duty officer as to who was bringing these people in the prison?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You didn't ask who brought these people?
24 A. No. There was no sense in that.
25 Q. You told us that you called Mirko Slavuljica and he arrived on
1 the 3rd of May. Did he go back to the army reserve?
2 A. He did not. Not until he left the prison for good.
3 Q. And when did he leave the prison for good?
4 A. I can't say exactly, but it could have been between the 15th and
5 the 20th of June, 1992.
6 Q. And after the 15th or the 20th of June, 1992, did somebody
7 replace him?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Now, in those earlier days, did the prison administration - and
10 by that I mean either Mr. Slavuljica or yourself - get into contact with
11 the MUP, in relation to the numbers of prisoners being brought in?
12 A. Slavuljica went to the MUP; I know that. And he had contacts
13 there. But what he discussed, and with whom, I don't know.
14 Q. Did you have discussions with him about going to speak to the
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did he tell you who he was planning to meet at the MUP?
18 A. What we discussed is -- is that something needed to be done, some
19 steps needed to be made to restore some kind of normalcy in our work.
20 And I know that, on one occasion, he went and talked to the chief of the
21 centre because soon afterwards, a letter came from the centre.
22 Q. And do you remember who was the chief of the centre at that time?
23 A. Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic.
24 Q. And what did Mr. Slavuljica tell to Andrija Bjelosevic? Did he
25 tell you, or did you ever find out?
1 A. We had our discussions before that, that he should go to the MUP
2 and try to see if it's possible at all to prevent these incursions by
3 paramilitary groups into the prison.
4 Q. And when you say "incursions by paramilitary groups," what did
5 you learn about these incursions? What happened exactly during those
7 A. They beat up prisoners.
8 Q. And how frequently did this happen?
9 A. It's difficult to say how often. We didn't count these raids,
10 but we took steps after every raid. We heard from individuals that these
11 raids usually happened after military clashes with the other side, with
12 the enemy, when one of their fellow fighters were killed.
13 Q. And you told us that a letter came out from the centre. Was this
14 after the meeting that Mr. Slavuljica had with Mr. Bjelosevic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How did Mr. Slavuljica approach this issue with Mr. Bjelosevic?
17 A. I don't know. Slavuljica just went to the MUP and talked to
18 someone. I wasn't there; I don't know.
19 Q. Inside the prison you told us what the capacity was before the
20 war. What was the situation after the 3rd of May, in terms of the
21 capacity of prisoners?
22 A. The question of capacity wasn't raised. Everyone brought in was
24 Q. Was this capacity respected after the 3rd of May?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And in relation to supplies, such as food, water, et cetera, what
2 was the condition? What was the situation in the prison?
3 A. There were no conditions, as such. In the first few days, we had
4 some food, and in the times of the state as existed previously, there was
5 a rule that the prison had to have food supplies for at least ten days in
6 case of emergencies, so that, in the first few days, the situation was
7 relatively satisfactory. Sometimes the town bakery didn't work, and
8 there was no bread in the town. Bread for the hospital was baked in the
9 surrounding villages, and we had in prison, a sack of flour that
10 Slavuljica used to ask a private baker to bake some bread. And, later
11 on, when the supplies were as -- were exhausted, which happened quite
12 quickly, we raided all the shops in Doboj and the food factory in Doboj.
13 And as long as they had any reserves, they gave them to us.
14 Later on, after the UNHCR came, the situation changed completely.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I ask for 65 ter 3530 to be displayed on
16 the screen.
17 Q. And, sir, I'd like to you take a look at this document. It will
18 appear in a moment. ?
19 This is a document of the 12th of June, 1992, from the CSB Doboj.
20 Could you, first of all, tell us if you've seen this document before.
21 A. I have.
22 Q. And did you see it at the time in 1992?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Could you please read the first paragraph, after it says:
1 A. "I strictly prohibit arbitrary entry into the premises of the
2 Doboj District Prison, and the rooms for temporary detention of persons
3 in public security stations, as well as the use of physical intimidation
4 and physical force against imprisoned and detained persons."
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we scroll to the bottom of that page,
7 Q. And do you see there that it is signed by Andrija Bjelosevic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is this the letter that you were referring to that came after
10 Mr. Slavuljica met Mr. Bjelosevic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And to your knowledge - I know it's been 18 years - this document
13 is issued on the 12th of June, roughly speaking, how much time before
14 this order did Mr. Slavuljica met -- meet Mr. Bjelosevic?
15 A. I can't say, but it was not long.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I would ask -- Your Honours.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the results of this order? Since it was
19 issued by the CSB
20 here, and seek to implement the order and prevent those armed incursions
21 into the prison.
22 Did that happen?
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
24 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard the question. What was the impact of this
1 A. I just said a moment ago that the police also took time to
2 consolidate just as we did. After this order came, some further raids
3 happened, but nothing comparable to the state of affairs before.
4 Q. And to your knowledge, was this order publicised in Doboj?
5 A. No.
6 Q. It was addressed by the CSB
7 A. I know it was sent to us. Whether it was sent to anyone else, I
8 don't know. For a while, this order was on the desk of the duty officer
9 at the prison.
10 Q. And, as a result of this order, did you -- you said that there
11 was a change. Was there anybody to prevent those soldiers from entering
12 the prison?
13 A. No.
14 Q. But, to your knowledge, shortly after this document was issued,
15 the incursions ceased?
16 A. Yes. Not immediately, but they were reduced in scale. Sometime
17 -- and it's hard to say exactly when, but I think the last raid happened
18 in July.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, considering the that the witness
20 had received the document at the time and he recognises it, may I ask for
21 the document to be admitted.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1305, Your Honours.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
25 Q. Mr. Vidic, you mentioned to us that there were beatings inside
1 the prison by the soldiers you described earlier. Were there any
2 examples or any occurrences of beatings by members of other
4 A. No, not that I know.
5 Q. Was there examples of prison guards beating prisoners?
6 A. There was one case.
7 Q. And what happened to that case?
8 A. We had one guard who hailed from the area of Knin, and when there
9 was a mass exodus of population from Knin, he came into the compound,
10 took out a prisoner, and used physical force against him.
11 Q. What happened to that prisoner?
12 A. The next morning, that prisoner was found dead.
13 Q. And what did you do about the guard?
14 A. He was suspended, and we informed the military court, because the
15 military court became involved, and the prisoner was under the
16 jurisdiction of the military court. We also informed the prosecutor's
17 office and the MUP, and an order was given to conduct a post mortem.
18 Q. When did this happen? First of all, was it in 1992?
19 A. No. No, that was perhaps in the end of 1993 -- sorry, towards
20 the end of 1992 or early 1993. I can't say precisely.
21 Q. Besides this guard, do you know if any measures were taken
22 against the other persons who were beating prisoners inside the prison?
23 A. We were not able to take any steps against any of the others who
24 were members of paramilitary organisations. This one man was our own
25 guard, and we did what we could against him, and what was our duty to do.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian, I was just wondering about the
2 information that the witness just gave to us. Namely, that the case was
3 brought to the military court. Why was that? And not the civilian court
4 and the civilian prosecutor?
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We may have a document that will clarify this
6 later on.
7 Q. But right now, Mr. Vidic, if can you help the Trial Chamber
8 understand why was the case of this guard taken before the military
10 A. Among all those people who had been brought in were a number of
11 persons against whom criminal reports were filed within the basic court
12 in Doboj and the other group of prisoners for whom reports were filed
13 with the military court. So, therefore, we had both military and
14 civilian prisoners. This particular prisoner that we just mentioned was
15 captured as a member of the HVO.
16 Q. Very well.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I will have some documents to
18 clarify this later on with the criminal reports.
19 Q. Mr. Vidic, did there come a time when you met members of the
20 Crisis Staff in Doboj?
21 A. Sometimes.
22 Q. Can you describe to the Trial Chamber in what circumstances you
23 met with the Crisis Staff.
24 A. Once Slavuljica decided to leave the prison and join the army, he
25 went to the Crisis Staff, and then after he came back, he told me that I
1 was appointed commissioner.
2 I asked Slavuljica whether there was any document to that effect,
3 but he said there wasn't. There wasn't any decision or written decision.
4 Due to that, I went to the Crisis Staff, where I was given a piece of
5 paper on which it was written that I was appointed commissioner at the
6 district prison in Doboj.
7 Q. And who did you meet to receive this piece of paper?
8 A. This piece of paper was given to me by Vlado Djurdjevic [phoen].
9 Q. And what was his function in Doboj?
10 A. I don't know that.
11 Q. Was he a member of any organisation?
12 A. I don't know that either.
13 Q. And the document was signed by whom?
14 A. By himself.
15 Q. Now, when I was asking you about whether you met members of the
16 Crisis Staff, are we to understand that this person was a member of the
17 Crisis Staff?
18 A. I suppose so. He was there in the building where the
19 Crisis Staff was headquartered.
20 Q. And where was the building of the Crisis Staff headquartered?
21 A. In the building of the railway transport company. It is situated
22 across the street from the prison.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I would like for 65 ter 3538 to be displayed on
25 the screen, please.
1 Q. Mr. Vidic, this document dated from the 15th of July, 1992
2 you recognise it?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go to the bottom of that page, please. I
5 apologise, in the B/C/S version, the next page.
6 Q. Is that your signature?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go back to the first page.
9 Q. Now, the header here says that it was addressed to the Presidency
10 of the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, Banja Luka.
11 Can you please explain that to us.
12 A. I can't. I can't. It was a long time ago. Probably we received
13 this circular or letter from the Ministry of Justice. But why it all
14 happened, it would be inappropriate for me to comment. Probably the new
15 ministry instructed us to send this to the address that you see here.
16 Q. All right. Now, we do see here that Mr. Slavuljica, acting
17 prison warden was an officer of Serbian army at the front. And we see
18 next to your name the word "commissioner."
19 Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. I apologise. By this time, Mr. Slavuljica was not at the prison
23 A. No.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we turn to the next page in the B/C/S
25 version; and in the English version, can we turn to page 3.
1 And I refer to the paragraph beginning with:
2 "Doboj district prison has been operating in wartime conditions
3 since 3 May 1992
4 Q. Do you see the second sentence, Mr. Vidic, which begins with:
5 "Given the impossibility of contacting the Ministry of Justice ..."
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Could you read the rest of that sentence to us, please.
8 A. "Given the impossibility of contacting the Ministry of Justice,
9 it has constantly worked in accordance with the regulations in force and
10 the instructions of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of
11 Doboj, although there are persons detained in part of the prison without
12 a decision on detention."
13 Q. At that time, does this mean that there was still people detained
14 without the adequate paperwork?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you go down to two paragraphs below the sentence beginning
17 with: "For example on 30 May ..."
18 Does it say that: "Food was provided for 500 persons," and
19 currently for 550 persons along with the prison staff?
20 A. That's what it says here.
21 Q. Can you describe to us who these 500 persons are.
22 A. I'm talking here about foodstuffs without mentioning either the
23 number of employees or prisoners, et cetera. Again, I cannot give you
24 any dates, but for a period of time we prepared and cooked food for the
25 police. Since we were one among the few institutions in this compound
1 that had a cauldron for cooking large quantities of food.
2 So for a short period of time we provided them with meals, but
3 who exactly these meals went to, we didn't know exactly, whether it went
4 to the military barracks in Bare, actually.
5 I don't know. Later on, there were some detainees at Usora as
6 well, but none of our personnel was there. We only provided food for
7 that location.
8 Q. Therefore, you are not able to tell us what is -- what are those
9 500 persons exactly.
10 A. No, I can't. Except for those who were there in the prison and
11 the prison staff.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go back to the first page of this
13 document in both versions.
14 Q. The first line of the document reads:
15 "Regarding the circular by the Ministry of Justice, number
17 Is it the case that you were replying to a request from the
18 Ministry of Justice?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I ask for this document to be
22 JUDGE HALL
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1306, Your Honours.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display now 65 ter 3534.
25 Q. Mr. Vidic, have you seen this document before?
1 A. I don't remember. It is possible.
2 Q. What is the reference number on the document?
3 A. 01/2-3/92.
4 Q. What is the date of the document?
5 A. 13th of February, 1992.
6 Q. We'll come to that date now.
7 The document is addressed to lower and higher courts and public
8 prosecutors. And if we go to the bottom of that page, it is addressed to
9 Doboj, Teslic, Derventa, and Modrica. And if we go to page 2 of that
10 document it appears to be -- the signature box has the name of
11 Mr. Momcilo Mandic, minister of justice.
12 If you look at the paragraph and if we go back to the top of the
13 page in English --
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No, no, go back to the top of page 2 but the top
15 of the page. Thank you.
16 Q. Could you read the beginning of the paragraph right after the
17 word "Modrica," Mr. Vidic. The paragraph that begins with: "Please
18 submit ..."
19 A. "Please submit a list of all workers (by name) to this Ministry
20 by 16 July 1992 and specify the president of the court, the judge, the
21 public prosecutor, and the deputy prosecutor, the warden of the prison,
22 as well as other workers with university education, training, VKV and KV,
23 as well as the number of the Giro accounts into which we will pay wages.
24 "Furthermore" --
25 Q. You can stop there. We can see the rest.
1 Mr. Vidic, here the request is to provide this information by
2 16th of July. And at the top of the letter, it says 13th of February.
3 Would allow that there is an error in the date at the top of the
5 You can scroll up in the B/C/S version at the top of the
7 A. As I said, I don't remember this letter. And it says here who
8 the addressees are. It says to higher court and lower and public
9 prosecutor's offices, et cetera. It doesn't say that it should be sent
10 to Doboj.
11 As far as this date is concerned, I honestly don't remember.
12 Q. And if you remember the prior document, it did refer to a
13 circular of the Ministry of Justice with the same number. When you
14 provided that information to the Ministry of Justice, do you remember a
15 document coming to you ordering you or requesting this information, the
16 list of staff members in your prison?
17 A. I really don't remember. I didn't provide an answer just out of
18 the blue. It was probably in response to the request by the ministry.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we will have another witness who
20 will -- who can authenticate this document. But at this time, I'm open,
21 I'm in your hands. We can admit, unless there is an objection by the
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we do not object to this document
24 being admitted, and we confirm that -- that obviously it's a typo,
25 because it refers to the Serbian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
1 it's signed by Mr. Momcilo Mandic as minister of justice of -- of Serbian
2 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we know that it is probably the 13th
3 of July, 1992, instead of 13th of February. So we don't -- we do not
4 object that this document be admitted at this point.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Then I seek to --
6 JUDGE HALL
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1307, Your Honours.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
9 Q. Mr. Vidic, in relation to your contacts with the Ministry of
10 Justice, did you -- were in touch with any members of the ministry? And
11 for the period of time, I'm talking about from the time that you were in
12 charge of the prison.
13 A. I had tried to get in touch with the minister. I called Pale and
14 on one occasion, they gave me a number somewhere in Belgrade. I got in
15 touch with the minister and -- but as soon as we started talking, the
16 line was broken, and that was the last time that I spoke to him.
17 Q. Did you make any other attempts to get in touch with members of
18 the Ministry of Justice?
19 A. Yes, there were attempts of that sort. When the presidents of
20 the courts in Doboj and the prosecutor discussed among themselves about
21 being obliged to do something and that they should get in touch with the
22 ministry and seek support from some quarters, both economic and
23 political, that we should have someone behind us. And that is when we
24 reached an agreement, and I agreed to go to Pale on behalf of the prison,
25 and the prosecution and another lady who was in charge of finances. And,
1 of course, there was a driver with us.
2 Q. When did you go to Pale?
3 A. I don't remember when it was exactly, but it could have been,
4 let's say, between the 8th and the 15th of August.
5 Q. And just to be clear, which year are we talking about?
6 A. 1992.
7 Q. And do you remember which building in Pale you went to?
8 A. To Bistrica Hotel.
9 Q. And did you meet with anyone in Pale?
10 A. Yes, I did. But none of those with whom I had originally
11 intended to meet. I met Mrs. Biljanja Brkic [phoen] who was working at
12 the time at the Ministry of Justice.
13 Q. What was her role?
14 A. I wouldn't know. But she definitely was not in the department
15 for the execution of criminal sanctions.
16 Q. And did you have any discussions with her about the situation in
18 A. Yes. I had to tell her about the purpose of my visit.
19 Q. And could you explain to the Trial Chamber what you told her
20 exactly. What was the purpose of your visit?
21 A. The purpose of this visit was primarily to find someone who would
22 provide either the money or the food for the prisoners. And also to find
23 someone who would give us information and to give us some guidance,
24 because the documents that we received with the prisoners were
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display 65 ter 35 -- 3537, please.
2 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you receive it in 1992?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And is this the -- your official appointment as warden of the
7 prison in Doboj?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May this be admitted, Your Honours.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE HALL
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1308, Your Honours.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display 65 ter 3071.
14 Q. Do you recognise this document, sir?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was the purpose of this decision? If you know.
17 A. I -- no. It is obvious that this was typed as a kind of template
18 for each institution. However, the truth is, that the Doboj district
19 prison is the only penal and correctional facility that continued to
20 operate while the other institutions were being in the process of being
21 setting up. It was only the district prison in Doboj in 1992, at the
22 beginning of war, already had on its premises the convicts, the persons
23 who had already been sentenced, and other prisoners.
24 Q. Was this document delivered to you at the time?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And, to your knowledge, were you told why this decision was
2 issued? If the prison already existed at the time, why was this issued
3 to you?
4 A. No, I wasn't told. And I didn't even ask. I didn't think it was
6 Q. And does -- if we can go to the second page, please.
7 Who -- do we see that this document is signed by
8 Dr. Radovan Karadzic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that this document was to be entered in the Official Gazette
11 of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May we admit this document, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1309, Your Honours.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we please display on the screen
17 65 ter 3531.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, you told us that the warden of the prison was
19 bound by -- bound to report to the Ministry of Justice. We have a
20 document here of the 12th of December, 1992. Subject is: Information on
21 the situation in Doboj district prison.
22 First of all, do you recognise this document?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Is this your document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At the bottom of the first paragraph, paragraph headed:
2 Information on the establishment, you provide a historic on the
3 establishment of the prison and the last part of the sentence reads that:
4 "... existing penal and correctional institutions ... including
5 Doboj district prison, were taken over by and continued operating as
6 organs of the state administration of Republika Srpska."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that a reflection of the -- the decision we saw issued by
9 Dr. Karadzic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now section -- paragraph 3: Information on detainees. It reads,
12 as you were telling us, that on the 2nd of May there were 24 detainees in
13 the prison, among whom 11 were in custody, 11 were imprisoned pending
14 appeal, and two were convicted.
15 If we go to the second page in English, we can keep it -- we can
16 keep the B/C/S there. It continues and says that:
17 "From 2nd of May, there were about 1.000 persons in and out of
18 the prison."
19 You wrote this document. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what did you base this figure of 1.000 persons? What was it
22 based on?
23 A. It was based on these provisional documents that we ourselves set
24 up and on the basis of the orders that we received from the police.
25 However, although I say here 1.000 individuals, there were
1 definitely people who came in two or three times, the same people.
2 Q. I understand.
3 Section 4 deals with the conditions of accommodation and living.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, could we ask what is meant by
5 1.000 persons in and out of the prison.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard Judge Delvoie's question. What do we mean
8 by 1000 persons in and out?
9 A. That means they were admitted and released.
10 Q. And at the time that you drafted this document, you say here that
11 there were still 111 persons in the prison?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. With regards to section 4 of your report, it refers to the visit
14 of International the Red Cross. Do you remember when the Red Cross
15 visited the prison?
16 A. I think it was in August or the beginning of September.
17 Q. Earlier during your testimony today, you mentioned UNHCR. Did
18 you mean that both organisations visited the prison, or was it one rather
19 than the other?
20 A. The International Red Cross visited the prison, while the UNHCR
21 supplied the region with food. All the food aid that arrived in Doboj
22 from this organisation was unloaded by convicts and uploaded again and
23 transported to destination; whereas, we received food for our own
25 Q. And approximately when did the UNHCR provide this food?
1 A. I -- I don't remember anymore.
2 Q. And if we look at the last page, please, in both English and
4 Is that your signature, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may that be admitted.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1310, Your Honours.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours I'd like to now turn to the
11 log-books of the prison. I don't know how much time I left before the
13 JUDGE HALL
14 11.58, we break at 12.05.
15 Sorry. If you think it would be a more efficient use of time to
16 take the break now and pick up afterwards, we could break five minutes
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I think that would be fine because we are
19 entering -- before we break, could I make sure that Your Honours have a
20 binders of the registers?
21 JUDGE HALL
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The way that I'm going to be proceeding is the
23 following: Considering that these log-books are quite voluminous, we
24 will be referring to documents in e-court, cross-referencing them with
25 the log-books in front of you, so this is how I wish to proceed after the
2 JUDGE HALL
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I continue, Your Honours?
8 JUDGE HALL
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
10 Just before we continue, a matter for the transcript Mr. Zecevic
11 brought to my attention. And at page 51, line 25, I was quoting from
12 P1310, paragraph 3. At line 25, it reads 11 were in chain of custody.
13 It was 11 were in custody. That's a typo in the transcript. We can see
14 it from the document.
15 At this stage could we display on the screen 65 ter 3079. And,
16 Your Honours, in your binders this is tab 3. And if I could have the
17 assistance of the usher, I have a binder for the witness as well. And if
18 we could turn -- change to tab 3 for the witness, please.
19 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell the Court what the document is?
22 A. This is a register of detainees.
23 Q. And on the cover page, it's a little bit erased, but it appears
24 that we start with the year 1989 until 1994; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If you turn to the next page --
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now, Your Honours you will notice that because
3 the ERN numbers do not appear properly on this document, we paginated
4 them by hand. So we will follow the numbers.
5 And another comment is that, to save resources, the interpreters,
6 translators, translated only the names that were in Cyrillic. They
7 didn't re-type the names that were in Latin letters, and we will have to
8 do with what we have to go back and forth between the B/C/S and the
10 Q. Mr. Vidic, I will ask you to turn to the detainee number 77,
11 which is on page 16. In English, the pages are off by one page, so that
12 would be page 17. Actually, it is page 16, I'm sorry. It is correct.
13 Now, we see that this individual by the name of
14 Rajko Kostasinovic [phoen] was detained on the 18th of April, 1992
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And next detainee, number 78, is detained on the 21st of May,
18 1992; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, first of all, who enters the details in this log-book?
21 A. Chief of the guard service.
22 Q. And, as you said, this is the log-book for - I apologise - the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Yes. If you go to the next page, page 18, and as you go around
1 these pages, do you recognise the handwritings? Because now we are in
2 the month of 1992.
3 A. From number 87 on, is my handwriting.
4 Q. And if you turn the pages, can you tell us until when do we see
5 your handwriting?
6 A. Up to and inclusive with number 122.
7 Q. Now, this was not your -- this was not part of your regular
8 functions; is that right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Could you explain to the Court how it came that you had to enter
11 those names in the log-book?
12 A. Mr. Slavuljica was already gone. The colleague who was supposed
13 to stand in for the head of the guard service was away as well, and I
14 think he returned only in August, and when he returned, he continued to
15 make entries. And we, in the prison, employed only professionals. There
16 were very few of us, and that's how it happened, that I also made entries
17 in the book.
18 Q. Very well. Could you go to page 20 and look at detainees as of
19 number 96.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you see the name of Mr. Senad Mesic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, if you -- the row continues on page 21 for this individual's
24 detention. Does it indicate which organ issued the order for
1 A. It says: "Lower court."
2 Q. In Doboj.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, this is one of those situations where I will ask to juggle
5 between the screen and the log-book.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If Your Honours have the page open at page 20,
7 21, I would ask at the meantime to display on the screen, 65 ter 3524.
8 Q. Now, sir, this is a report we will see on the second page. On
9 the first page is says, Case against Senad Mesic, Esad Hidic et al.
10 If we can go to the second page, please, we see that this is
11 issued by the public security station in Doboj on 18th of May. This is a
12 criminal report, and the first individual there is Senad Mesic. Does the
13 details in this report, his date of birth, and place of birth, connect
14 with what is in the log-book as detainee number 96?
15 Is this the same person?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, in the log-book, we see that the date for the detention is
18 in parentheses, 17th of May, 1992. In the log-book at page 21. Do you
19 see the date in parentheses?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And above that we see a few entries where we have a date, and
22 below the date, we have another date in parentheses. Could you explain
23 to the Court why do we have these two dates in some situations and what
24 the parentheses mean?
25 A. That's because in this -- in these provisional records we were
1 keeping, when a person would be first brought in, we would note it down
2 this way. Although in the documents of the prosecutor's office and the
3 court, this date in brackets did not feature, but we noted it down just
4 to have a rough estimate before we find out the exact information,
5 because it's obvious that the court did not cover this time in which we
6 knew, from our records, that the person was detained.
7 Q. Now, the document from the public security station, Doboj, is the
8 18th of May, and the detention begins on the 17th of May.
9 Could you explain to the Court how it is that the individual
10 appears to be first detained and then this report comes the next day?
11 A. I cannot explain that.
12 Q. That's fine. We will have another witness to deal with this
14 I will not go through all the names in this criminal report.
15 But, for example, if you look at number 3, under the number of
16 Murat Husakovic, do you see him also being included in your log-book at
17 number 97?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Your Honours, we will have another witness to authenticate this
20 document. But for this time, can we just mark it for identification?
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: What's the purpose if I may ask of -- what is it
22 that you wish to show with the -- with these log-books?
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: At this time -- well, perhaps if we can ask the
24 witness -- not the log-book, Your Honour, I was just --
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, the register.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The criminal report, yes.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] The 65 ter 3524?
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, that's the one that I wish to MFI at this
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Which, if I'm not
6 wrong, is not on your list.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] is it?
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Where is my list?
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may be heard on the subject.
11 The Defence does not object if my learned friend wants to
12 introduce this document through this witness. So it doesn't need to be
14 being tendered as evidence.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, just to answer Judge Delvoie's
16 question, you are quite right; this document is in Doboj package to be
17 tendered through the next witness. So I don't wish for it to be
18 tendered, I apologise. I just wanted to display it to the witness. But
19 you're quite right; it should have been on my list as a document to been
20 shown to the witness.
21 But, in any case, we have the person who drafted this criminal
22 report who will be able to -- yes. So just for reference purposes, if it
23 could be marked for identification for now.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1311, marked for identification,
1 Your Honours.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, in response to Judge Harhoff's
3 question as to the purpose of this criminal report, that is the reason
4 why I wanted the witness to remove his headphones, it was to show the
5 ethnicity of the people against who measures were taken in May 1992.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I move on?
8 JUDGE HALL
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, if we go back to the log-book to the detainee at
11 number 96, does it show that this detainee was released on the 9th of
12 March, 1993?
13 A. Yes. It says here in the log that he was transferred to the
14 military investigative prison in Banja Luka, military remand prison.
15 Q. Very well. I will ask you to turn now to page 30 of the log-book
16 and to look at detainees number 144 to 156.
17 Do you see that page?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you read the name of the first individual in detention.
20 A. Miroslav Pijunovic.
21 Q. And if go to the next page, page 32, so if you just flip the
22 page, all the way down to number 156, the first name on that at page 151
23 do you see as Dario Slavuljica?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm being told that it's not on the screen. If
1 we can go back to 65 -- 3079 on the screen, please.
2 Mr. Pantelic, you should have a log-book as well.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but Mr. Pantelic was intervening on behalf of
4 our clients because they don't see it.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
6 I'm waiting for it to be displayed on the screen.
7 Q. Yes. The name at number 156, is it Zoran Sljuka?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, this group seems to have been detained as of the 17th of
10 July, 1992. Do you remember the circumstances of the detention of this
12 A. A bit. It was rather guess-work, from what I remember about the
13 circumstances. And later there was media reporting about this group, and
14 I simply don't want to make a mistake, if I tell you anything specific
15 about what was happening at what time.
16 Q. And you said that these were reported in the media. How was this
17 group known? Were they known by a certain name?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you provide that name?
20 A. The Mice.
21 Q. While you have that page open, can we display on the screen
22 65 ter 859.
23 Sir, do you see the document on the screen?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. It is a document issued by the Teslic Lower Court. Do you see
1 the reference number? And can you tell us the reference number, please.
2 A. KI33/92.
3 Q. It reads 33 in the transcript. Is that what you said?
4 A. 33 or 35. It's a bit fudged.
5 Q. I understand. And if you look at the log-book, back at the
6 log-book, for entry number 144, Miroslav Pijunovic, do you see the number
7 appear in your log-book?
8 A. Yes, 35.
9 Q. And in order for you to detain these individuals in the prison,
10 did you have to receive the decision from the Teslic Lower Court?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And do you remember receiving the document at that time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in relation to the person detained as number 151,
15 Dario Slavuljica, did you remember seeing him later in that year?
16 A. He later worked with us as a medical technician, but I can't tell
17 you as of which date.
18 Q. And -- very well.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I ask for the Teslic Lower Court's
20 decision to be admitted.
21 Again it is on the other list, Mr. Demirdjian.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have it on this list as 859. It is pretty
23 much the last document -- one of the last documents. You should see it
24 as tab 62, perhaps, 65 ter 859.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Tab 62.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If the tab numbers were sent, were they as well?
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're right. Sorry, my mistake.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 with this process. Like, for instance, the last document, the order of
6 court by which the particular person was -- was taken into the prison.
7 Does it -- we have testimony of the process already from the witness who
8 was on the stand --
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 into the prison on a warrant from the Court. I'm not sure about the
12 utility of, for example, exhibiting the particular court order in respect
13 of a particular witness. Is there a reason for that?
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.
15 This document will be used with subsequent witnesses who can talk
16 about the procedure that took place in relation to the document, the way
17 it was drafted, the interviews with the detainees, and their subsequent
18 release. At this stage the only evidence that this witness can provide
19 is his angle, was that he received the court order and he detained the
20 individual. That's as far as we can take it with this witness.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. The issue in this case with relation to
23 this group was that in relation to their activities in the municipality
24 of Teslic, their arrest, their detention, and their release, and
25 ultimately the lack of measures taken against this group.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 support for the evidence that you are going to be leading orally from the
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, to corroborate what he is saying.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, with we not object that this document
7 be admitted on the record.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 whether this procedure is in dispute.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it's not, as far as we are concerned. The only
11 thing is, if I may be of assistance to Your Honours, this decision is not
12 about the detention. This decision is initiation of the investigation
13 against this group.
14 So these people were already in detention. And by this decision
15 the -- the court initiates the investigating proceedings to establish
16 whether there is a foundation to -- to file the -- to proceed in the
17 criminal trial with these people.
18 So it is -- it is not disputed by us. It is just the completely
19 different aspect that we are -- that we are saying it shows, not what --
20 what my learned friend is stating.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this is clearly a matter in
23 dispute between the parties. This is a -- the crimes committed by this
24 group is charged -- they are charged in the indictment. This goes to
25 prove the procedure that took place once this group was arrested, and,
1 obviously in our indictment, we are claiming that there was a lack of
2 measures taken against this group.
3 And this is why we need to show what was the procedure that was
4 actually taken and to show that we think that this is not the appropriate
6 JUDGE HALL
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1312, Your Honours.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I am finished with the log-book that we have in
9 front of us, which was 65 ter 3079.
10 Q. I do have one question, Mr. Vidic. Apart from this group, the
11 Mice Group that we saw, apart from this group would it be fair to say
12 that as of the month of May 1992, the majority of the detainees were
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, since the witness recognises the
16 log-book as belonging to the Doboj Central Prison, I would ask this
17 document to be admitted.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This log-book.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1314 [sic], Your Honours.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: No objection, Your Honour.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display on the screen 65 ter 3570.
24 Q. Mr. Vidic, do you recognise this document?
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 A. Well, I saw it when shown by the investigator. I remember it
2 from that time.
3 Q. Very well. And this document is dated the 17th of July and
4 drafted by the Doboj High Court. It is again in relation to the
5 Mice Group that we were discussing earlier.
6 I would like, in the English version, to turn to page 2.
7 And in your language, sir, if you go to paragraph 4 which begins
9 "Since the Doboj High Court has jurisdiction over the Serbian
10 municipality of Teslic ..."
11 Are you able to provide us any comments about this issue, the
12 issue of jurisdiction over Teslic?
13 A. District court had jurisdiction over the lower court in Teslic.
14 Q. And in this letter, the high court is proposing for the transfer
15 of the detainees to the Doboj prison. And the next paragraph reads:
16 "We shall transfer the said individuals at 1200 hours on the
17 18th of July, 1992, by our prison bus."
18 Can you provide the Trial Chamber with your views on what
20 A. I can't remember who told me and who asked us to provide one of
21 our buses, but I know that a bus went to Banja Luka and that these
22 detainees had arrived in Doboj before and the bus went back empty.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry to interrupt, but there is --
24 there might be a problem. Maybe I'm missing. I believe the log-book,
25 the previous document, was admitted and marked as P1314. But it should
1 be 1313, I believe. Because the previous document was 1312 so ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] Thank you. The
3 document is, indeed, 1313. I was intending to correct the transcript
4 next time.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
6 Q. Mr. Vidic, can you see the signature block of this document at
7 the bottom? Perhaps if it could be zoomed on that.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, the last name is a little bit smudged, but what is the title
10 that will we see for the person who signs?
11 A. It says here the President of the Higher Court.
12 Q. We can see the first name. Are you able to tell us who was the
13 president of the high court at the time?
14 A. In the earlier days, there was commissioner, Miroslav Lazarevic.
15 And after that, for a while Goran Neskovic was president of the high
16 court. Followed by Sava Lejkovic [phoen]. Which one occupied the
17 position at what time, I couldn't say exactly.
18 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions on this document.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could it be admitted, please.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1314, Your Honours.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we now turn to tab 6 in your binders,
23 Your Honours, and that's 65 ter 3076. And if the witness could --
24 Q. Mr. Vidic, if could you can go to tab 6 in your binder, please.
25 A. Which tab?
1 Q. Number 6. Do you recognise this book?
2 A. It should be in this book. These records should be in this book.
3 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. I was just asking you if you recognise the book?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. What was the purpose of recording names in this book?
6 A. The purpose was for us to know who went out and who is supposed
7 to come back to prison.
8 Q. Now, this is a book that was kept in the prison?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And who was entering the data in this log-book?
11 A. The duty officer at the prison.
12 Q. If you look at the first page, after you turn the cover, and you
13 look at detainee number 2, what does this log-book tell us about his
15 A. It says that he had been taken to the MUP.
16 Q. Who would take the detainee to the MUP?
17 A. A MUP employee would come with an order for escorting this
18 person, and, on the basis of that order, he would take him out.
19 Q. Do you see his name repeated at number 6?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At number 13?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On the following page, do you see it repeated at 33 and 44?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And is it correct that each time, he is taken to the MUP?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On -- on the page that starts with detainee number 31, we see
3 next to detainee number 37, the name Lugonjic. Who -- do you know who
4 Lugonjic is?
5 A. I can't see the name of Lugonjic. I don't know who that person
6 is anyway.
7 Q. Very well. I will ask you to -- well, first of all, do you see
8 the name? It's number 37, Hasan Omerasevic and if you continue along the
9 line, you see under the comments, "Taken to work to the MUP." And you
10 see "Lugonjic."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But you're telling us you don't know that person.
14 A. No, I don't.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
17 Q. Sir, could you go to page 5, which starts with detainee
18 number 118 -- I apologise, page 3. Page 3 which begins with detainee
19 number 60. And go down to detainee number 82.
20 Do you see the name at number 82?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who was the person by the name of Karlo Grgic?
23 A. He was the police station deputy commander.
24 Q. And this was prior to the war?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Does this log-book show that he was taken out on the 12th of
2 May and returned on the 15th of May?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And does it say that he was taken to the MUP for interview?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now I will ask you to go to page 6, entry number 147.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Mr. Demirdjian.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't think you are right. I don't think you are
10 right. I believe the -- the entry at 81 says, At 9.15. And then that
11 "at" was copied afterwards.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The "at" for the date, 15th of May, which is
13 copied --
14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, I don't think so. I think it's the 12th of
15 May, and it says "at 9.15."
16 And there's no date.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I was talking about, first of all, number 82.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated] I know, but if it is --
19 if -- if this sign in 82, it copies the previous entry. And the previous
20 entry, as I can see, says "at 9.15."
21 So it might be the 12th of May he was taken at 9.00, the
22 number 81, and returned at 9.15.
23 That's -- that's what I -- what I noted.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let's clarify this with the witness.
25 Q. Mr. Vidic, detainee number 80, Nadja Seric, on what date was that
1 person returned to the prison?
2 A. It says here the 15th of May.
3 Q. Detainee number 81, Fadil Ahmic. On what date was he returned to
4 the prison?
5 A. Apparently one cannot say precisely by looking at this. It is
6 clear that he came back at quarter past 9.00.
7 Q. Now, what does little sign mean? Or the date? Those quotation
8 marks, or those little lines.
9 A. That's why I'm saying, that one cannot say precisely. This sign,
10 ditto, means that it is identical to the previous one. I think that
11 Fadil was taken at 9.15, only the date was not recorded here.
12 Q. And the ditto, is it a ditto for the date that is above? What
13 was the ditto used for?
14 A. It's the handwriting of one and the same person. And I can only
15 suppose that Fadil Ahmic was taken out on the 12th of May at 9.00 and
16 that he was returned on the same day at quarter past 9.00.
17 Q. Now, at what time was he taken out on the 12th of May?
18 A. At 9.00.
19 Q. And if you look at Karlo Grgic just below, on what day was he
20 taken out?
21 A. The 12th of May.
22 Q. Isn't there a ditto right there?
23 A. Yes, there is.
24 Q. And doesn't the ditto repeat the date above?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Wouldn't the same be replicated in the next column?
2 JUDGE HALL
3 Because if you go over the page, the column which seems to suggest date
4 on which they returned are dates earlier than the 15th.
5 So notwithstanding the dittos that appear from 81 going down, it
6 appears, and perhaps this is something that the witness could explain,
7 that the date 15/5 where it first appears seems sort of out of sync with
8 the dates that follow it over the page.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
10 Q. Mr. Vidic, how would the ditto be used generally? What is it
11 referring to?
12 A. To put it simply there was no strict rule and there was no
13 obligation to put the full date always or to use this sign ditto. It was
14 left to the discretion of every person who kept these records. So I
15 believe that you will find plenty of examples like this, both in this
16 document and in other documents.
17 MR. PANTELIC: And, I mean, in order to clarify as much as
18 possible now in-chief, I just suggest to go through other entries, which
19 is above, and there is a pattern, there is a logic. For example, the
20 same day and only the changes in the time, so maybe it's a typo there, or
21 I don't know. I don't want to speculate, really. But we have a much
22 stronger pattern above all these entries, which -- which is logical. I
23 really don't want to -- to waste time, and I'm, again, sorry to interrupt
24 my learned friend.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
1 Q. Just to clarify the matter, Mr. Vidic, it appears that, if we
2 look at the chronological order, the dates above are the 10th, the 11th,
3 and then there is a skip to the 15th.
4 Could that be an error?
5 A. It's possible.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Overlapping speakers]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, a mistake is possible.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I guess, the issue --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry.
11 There is -- there could be some logic now if you are -- if you
12 are getting somebody out in the first column on the 12th, and all these
13 dates in this column are sequential, if it doesn't come back but on the
14 15th and you have people going out on the 12th and on the 13th - next
15 page --
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- then it is quite normal that the 15 comes
18 before the -- the date of re-entry from the man who goes out on the 12th
19 or on the 13th.
20 So the fact that the 15th is here not sequentially in -- in this
21 column, doesn't mean it's an error.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I guess the issue it whether the ditto signs
24 refer to the information above or refer to the horizontal information
25 that -- in the other column.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Vidic, you have something to add.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe this is obviously a
7 mistake. Nadja was taken out on the 12th of May and was taken back on
8 the 15th.
9 If we look that the whole column beneath her name is identical.
10 If you look at number 81 to 88, they all were taken out on the 12th. But
11 it seems from here that they were all brought back on the 15th. But the
12 next column, you see different purposes, loading goods, going to MUP,
13 et cetera. To me, it tells me that this is a mistake in the date.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
15 Q. Mr. Vidic, can you turn to page 6 of the log-book and look at
16 entry number 147.
17 Do you see the name?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it the same name, Mr. Karlo Grgic?
20 Now on this occasion --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I apologise. On this occasion, where was he taken?
23 A. To hospital.
24 Q. From which day to which day?
25 A. From the 16th to the 19th of May.
1 Q. Do you recall Mr. -- at the time, in 1992, these events when
2 Mr. Grgic was taken to the hospital?
3 A. I remember that period, but who can possibly remember so many
4 people, where they were taken to, and on what date. I only remember that
5 there were people who were taken to hospital in that period.
6 Q. And do you remember for what reason they were taken to the
8 A. They were taken because of the injuries that they had sustained.
9 Q. Do you know where they sustained those injuries?
10 A. Well, I cannot say anything about that. Probably in prison.
11 Q. The last entry I want to refer to is on page 12. Detainees as of
12 number 312. And 312 to 321.
13 You see as of Bajro Huditi, all the way down to 321, Karlo Grgic,
14 what is the first comment in the next column, 24th of May? What does it
16 A. Taken to work.
17 Q. And right next to that in big letters what is written there?
18 A. Released.
19 Q. Do you remember the circumstances of the release of this group?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, there are many other entries, but
22 at this time, I will seek to tender this document.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1315, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 were granted for this witness would be exhausted by 1.30 which is in
2 13 minutes.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I plan on finishing by that time, Your Honours.
4 Q. Sir, can we now go to --
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, Your Honours, before I continue, this was
6 the document that was shown to the witness yesterday, if you remember we
7 marked it for identification. The witness marked names with a red, with
8 a cross. This is the same document. Now if we can have both versions
9 admitted now that the witness has authenticated this document. The
10 version marked by the previous witness and this unmarked version, as
12 It was P1299, MFI
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. That -- I retract what I just
16 said. It's another log-book. I will get to that one now. I apologise.
17 It is it tab number 5. This is the one that I'm talking about
18 now. 65 ter 3075. This is the one that was shown to the witness
19 yesterday, but I will show him now the unmarked version.
20 Q. Sir, this is another log-book. Do you recognise it?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Was this kept in the prison?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And who was in charge of entering names in this book?
25 A. If it is a book, then that would be the head of the guard
2 Q. And if you look through the pages of this book, what was the
3 purpose of keeping this book, in comparison to the others?
4 A. These are records that we established on our own. It is not
5 statutory. So, if this was a book, this was taken by the head of the
6 guard service. However, since I see that this is a makeshift book, this
7 was being kept by the prison duty officer.
8 Q. And does this book show the date when a detainee was detained and
10 A. Yes, it does.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No more questions for this document. Could it
12 be admitted, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Sir, could we go to tab 4, please. And that is
15 65 ter --
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Could we have the exhibit number, please, first.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. And Mr. Smith.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1316, I apologise.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And Mr. Smith has reminded me that now would be
20 the time to admit the MFI
21 JUDGE HALL
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Right. 65 ter 2798, tab 4.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I would, just for the clarity of the record, and I
24 will it assist everybody, if my learned friend can read the 65 ter number
25 of 1299, which was MFI
1 as P1316, so we can have a clear distinction between the two.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. Yesterday, the document which was marked
4 as P1299 was 65 ter 10345. And today, it was 65 ter 3075. That was
5 admitted as P1316.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, do you recognise this book?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell us what this book is.
9 A. This is another log-book that we established. It was not
10 prescribed by the rules and regulations. I would prefer to call it an
11 index book.
12 We tried to list all these names according to the alphabetical
13 order. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think that this book was
14 being kept until the end, so ...
15 Q. Just to clarify one matter that was raised yesterday, Mr. Vidic,
16 can you go to page 25 in the B/C/S version, which is page 20 in the
17 English version.
18 Now, detainee number 12. Do you see his name?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. What is the -- what is the name, please?
21 A. Ilija Tipura.
22 Q. Does it say that he was detained from the 4th of May until the
23 9th of September, 1992?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And just very quickly, what was the ethnic background of
1 Mr. Tipura?
2 A. He was a Croat.
3 Q. And what was the ethnic background of Mr. Grgic? I didn't ask
4 you -- I didn't ask you earlier.
5 A. A Croat.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can I ask for this document to be admitted,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1317, Your Honours.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Right. I have two topics to cover, and I will
11 be finished, Your Honours.
12 Q. Mr. Vidic, you told us that you had established some contact with
13 members of the MUP in Doboj. Can you tell us who were your contacts at
14 the MUP?
15 A. That was Obren who was the chief of the police station. He was
16 at the head of the criminal investigation department, or at least I think
18 In the State Security Service, it was a man called Zivkovic,
19 first name Dusan or Dusko. And finally, Marko Mihajlcic.
20 Q. Did you interact with them during the months of May, June, July
22 A. Yes. Not often, but we did meet.
23 Q. What was the gist of your conversations with -- first of all, you
24 mentioned Obren, but his last name is not recorded. Can you give us his
25 full name, please.
1 A. His last name was Petrovic.
2 Q. And what was the gist of your conversation? What was the gist of
3 your conversation with Mr. Petrovic?
4 A. We had conversations that were identical, there was no difference
5 between our conversations. With all of them, I discussed these orders
6 for placing people into detention, and I insisted on this being done
7 according to the proper procedure. Because sometimes it happened that
8 these orders contained only the name, the signature, and the stamp.
9 There were quite a few cases where, in addition to the full name, there
10 was the date of birth. But, actually, it should also contain such
11 details as the father's name and date of birth, the place of birth, and
12 residential address.
13 So these are the topics that we discussed, but nothing
14 materialised as a result.
15 Q. And did you have the same sort of conversations with
16 Mr. Zivkovic?
17 A. As I said, I talked about these things with all of them.
18 Q. Did you discuss the conditions in the prison?
19 A. Well, certainly I did mention that in passing. But they were not
20 in a position to accommodate any of my requests.
21 Q. And what I mean by the conditions in the prison, I'm referring to
22 what you said earlier, in relation to people coming at night and beating
24 A. Oh, yes, that was common knowledge.
25 Q. And my last question, Mr. Vidic. We've seen all these log-books.
1 We've seen people taken to the hospital, and you've explained to us what
2 these were. Were any of these crimes, to your knowledge, ever processed
3 and tried criminally before a court? Except for the case that you
4 mentioned of the prison guard.
5 A. I know nothing about that.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vidic.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: In regard to the -- the exhibit numbers,
10 Madam Registrar, could it that be we just gave two exhibit numbers to the
11 same document 1316 and 1317 to -- to 65 ter 3075?
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 for the -- for the adjournment. But I'm wondering whether, on the one
16 hand, counsel may think that little practical use can be made of that.
17 In any event, perhaps the witness could be -- the witness's endurance
18 need not be taxed to squeeze the additional 15 minutes of court time out
19 of today.
20 So perhaps we should take the adjournment to --
21 Pardon me?
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE HALL
24 is --
25 I see that counsel requested five hours. Is that still your
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one thing is
3 certain, we will finish with this witness tomorrow. And our examination
4 will be considerably shorter than our notification, because we always
5 make our notifications in an abundance of caution. But a lot has been
6 already gone through by the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor has also tendered
7 as lot of documents that we intended to introduce, so we will certainly
8 finish by the end of the day tomorrow.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 having been sworn as a witness, you can't have contact with counsel from
11 other side; and should you have occasion to speak with persons outside of
12 the court, you cannot discuss your testimony.
13 Do you understand?
14 So we would -- I think we're in Courtroom III tomorrow morning.
15 So we take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of
19 April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.