1 Tuesday, 4 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused Stanisic entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
7 Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 Good morning to everyone.
10 May we have the appearances for today, please.
11 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
12 Belinda Pidwell, assisted by Crispian Smith, Case Manager, for the
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing
16 for Stanisic Defence. Thank you.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
18 Miroslav Cukic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 Mr. Krgovic, I'm reminded that the -- inasmuch -- notwithstanding
21 that it would have been alerted to the Chamber by the Zupljanin Defence
22 team last week about his absence every day this week that it is necessary
23 for the record for counsel to indicate each day that he is not present.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, Mr. Zupljanin is not appearing today.
25 He sent a waiver.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE HALL
4 continues, we had undertaken yesterday to rule this morning on the
5 application for the admission into evidence of the last document to which
6 the witness spoke. Whereas, on the face of it, there appears to be some
7 connection between the -- the -- the witness is able to speak somehow to
8 the contents of the document, which may argue for its become marked for
9 identification. We're not satisfied that it is -- that it could be
10 admitted through this witness because the answers that the witness has
11 given in terms of the document and its -- his familiarity with it is
12 simply to remote from him. So it may be admissible through another
13 witness, but at this stage we rule that it should not be marked as an
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I -- as I say, it's not one where I'm
16 going to start arguing again, but it's unlikely - can I put it this way;
17 no harm in that - that we're likely to have another witness who can speak
18 to the contents at all. So, I mean, it really depends whether or not the
19 question of how the judicial system came to be into being in the
20 Republika Srpska is a matter which Your Honours consider is relevant to
21 the case.
22 I mean, it may well be that we'll have to return to this at a
23 later stage when we're clearly going to have to apply for some documents
24 to come in through bar table motions.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 so that we don't lose it --
2 MS. KORNER: Yes.
3 JUDGE HALL
5 MS. KORNER: Certainly, Your Honour. I'm happy with that.
6 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
9 Q. Mr. Mandic, can we continue then, please --
10 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me.
11 MS. KORNER: Oh, sorry.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be marked as Exhibit P1324, marked for
14 JUDGE HALL
15 remind you that you're still on your oath.
16 Ms. Korner.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Mandic, as you appreciate, I'm taking you through documents
19 in what I hope is a chronological order and documents that you haven't
20 been asked to talk about in your previous testimony.
21 So could have you a look, please, first of all, at document
23 MS. KORNER: Oh, tab, sorry. 58.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, this is a document addressed to the -- from the
25 Serbian Republic
1 it's signed "Government Secretary, Nedeljko Lakic."
2 Did you know Mr. Lakic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And who was Mr. Lakic?
5 A. He was the secretary in the government of Mr. Djeric, where I was
6 a minister.
7 Q. Was he the person who actually took the minutes of the government
8 meetings, a couple of which we're going to look at?
9 A. I think he may have been, but he didn't have to. The
10 government secretary has certain responsibilities that were prescribed by
11 a piece of legislation, governing the work of the government. He may
12 have taken minutes but not necessarily.
13 Q. All right. But what I want to ask you about is it's dated the
14 15th of May and it's addressed to the Crisis Staff in Ilijas. It says:
15 "Please approve and provide passage through your territory for
16 the group of prisoners who are presently at Pale and travelling to
18 "Transport and escort for these prisoners will be provided by the
19 Crisis Staff of Pale.
20 "Please destroy that approval the moment when the prisoners leave
21 Ilijas municipality."
22 Now, this is at a period about four days before you were
23 officially appointed to be minister of justice, but you told us that you
24 already knew that were going to be.
25 Why was that approval to be destroyed when the prisoners left?
1 A. First of all, the government secretary did not have authority to
2 send such letters. It's not within his purview.
3 Now, on what basis and on whose orders he did this, I don't know.
4 Q. Well, Ministry of Justice was in charge, wasn't it, of the -- of
5 the prisons. And, as we'll see, you had something to do -- well, we've
6 already talked about the exchange of prisoners.
7 Now, did you have anything to do with this?
8 A. With this letter?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... as you say, the government
12 secretary was hardly likely to send this on his own authority, was he?
13 Who would have given him the authority to send this letter?
14 A. Well, he either did it on his own initiative or on the orders of
15 the prime minister, because he was responsible only to the prime
17 And this is quite outside the system. It's some sort of private
18 letter. It never passed through the government.
19 Q. Well, do you know what "prisoners in Pale" refers to?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right. Let's leave that, then, please, and can we move, as I
22 say, to other matters concerning prisoners.
23 MS. KORNER: Could we have a look, please, at P179.17, which is
24 tab 60.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 Mr. Mandic, do I understand from your answers about this last
2 document that was shown to you by counsel that because, on the face of
3 it, it's irregular for the reasons that you have given that it may not be
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not doubting its authenticity.
6 I'm not saying that Nedeljko Lakic did not sign it, but it's irregular.
7 The government secretary is an administrative employee who takes
8 care of the work of the government within the cabinet itself, within the
9 ministries. He has no outside authority. It's the ministries who act on
10 the outside in the field. The secretary of the government is a technical
11 staff member. He has no authority to give any instructions to any
12 municipalities, be it Pale or Ilijas, to do anything. He has no
13 authority, and it's an irregular letter. It must have been some private
15 MS. KORNER: I think some light's going to be shone on it by this
16 document, Your Honours, on this previous document.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 MS. KORNER: I think will you see some light is going to be shed
19 on that document we just looked at by this document that we're about to
20 look at.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. All right. Mr. Mandic, this document is headed, is it not: The
24 total of 400 persons, who were driven from Bratunac to Pale, are listed
25 on 18 pages.
1 And if you go to the next page -- third page, I think, in each.
2 MS. KORNER: Yeah, third page in each.
3 Q. It's dated the -- well, in the translation it's got the
4 14th of May. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it's -- says in handwriting, as we can see, there are 400
7 persons, member of the government's commission on behalf of the
8 Serbian MUP for the exchange of prisoners of war, Slobodan Markovic.
9 Did you know Mr. Markovic?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Never heard of him?
12 A. Never heard of him.
13 Q. And then it's a list, isn't it?
14 MS. KORNER: If we just go to the -- page -- two pages on; page 5
15 in English and probably the same in B/C/S.
16 Q. It's a list of people, all of whom, on the face of it, are
17 Muslims from Bratunac.
18 Do you agree with that, Mr. Mandic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, were you aware - I mean, you were based in Pale at this
21 stage, weren't you? - that 400 people had been brought from Bratunac to
22 Pale and would have seen to have been transferred for the purposes of
24 A. I'm seeing this list for the first time, and I did not know that
25 some people were brought from Bratunac to Pale. I don't know who brought
2 Q. Did you -- before you took up your appointment as minister of
3 justice, was anybody else acting as minister of justice?
4 A. In the Ministry of Justice, you mean?
5 Q. Yeah.
6 A. No. I don't think so. Ranko Nikolic had been appointed minister
7 of justice. We discussed this yesterday. That was in December or
8 perhaps January 1992. He failed to show up to take up his new post, and
9 before April I was informed at a meeting of a body called
10 Security Council or something like that, that I would be taking over the
11 Ministry of Justice, because the minister of justice, Ranko Nikolic, did
12 not show up for work. I believe I was the first one to occupy that
14 Whether anyone from the joint Ministry of Justice had been
15 transferred already to the Ministry of Justice and had already started
16 working, I don't know, because yesterday's document dated
17 1st May indicates that some people had been working at the
18 Ministry of Justice before I arrived, because until the beginning of May,
19 I was at Vrace, at the school in Vrace; that's where I was based. I was
20 not in Pale. I was in Vrace, standing in for Mico Stanisic, whereas
21 Mico Stanisic was at Pale at the headquarters of the MUP of the police.
22 Q. There is what I want to ask you about. Until such time as there
23 was a functioning Ministry of Justice when you took over, who was in
24 charge of matters such as prisons and prisoners? Which organ -- which
1 A. There was no ministry in charge of it, and it was not decided at
2 the level of the government. Every Crisis Staff, every municipality,
3 every region had its own Crisis Staff and its own commission for
4 prisoners. It was at the local level. The Serb state had not started to
5 operate properly, and it was later only that the Commission for the
6 Exchange of Prisoners of War was formed later for Republika Srpska, and
7 it's established by a series of documents.
8 There were regions and autonomous regions before that time.
9 Q. Mr. Mandic, can I just say something. As you know, because we
10 have the [indiscernible], we have a limited amount of time, we have a
11 number of documents to get through, so if you could simply concentrate
12 and answer on the question I asked. If more explanation is needed, I'll
13 ask you for it.
14 Are you saying, therefore, that in the beginning of May before
15 you took up your appointment there was no ministry actually in charge of
16 prisoners but the regions and the local Crisis Staffs dealt with
18 A. From all I know, yes.
19 Q. Did the Ministry of Interior have anything to do with this, the
20 prisoners, and the transfer of them?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Well, you were still in -- in -- until May the 19th, the
23 assistant minister for the police; acting, if you like. So don't you
24 know whether or not the Ministry of Interior had responsibilities for
1 A. No, I did not know that.
2 Q. All right. Let's move on then, please.
3 Can we look next, please, at -- a record of an intercept between
4 you and somebody else. I think we'll find it's Karisik.
5 MS. KORNER: Oh, sorry, it's document 1319; tab 60.
6 I'm sorry, P179.17.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Ms. Korner, the previous document was
8 tab 60.
9 MS. KORNER: Was it? Oh, so it was. Tab 61. So sorry.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. KORNER: Right. It's still 32 -- it's document -- it's
12 65 ter 3249. Sorry.
13 Q. Now, this is a -- apparently a conversation between you and
14 somebody called Milena. You're trying to get hold of General Mladic.
15 And if we go to the second page -- no, second page, you're
16 leaving a message saying that you were calling from the barracks in
17 Lukavica. And at what stage in May - because we don't have an accurate
18 date - were you in Lukavica?
19 A. I was there all the time at Vrace and Lukavica. It's one and the
20 same place, in the Serbian territory. That barracks was about
21 1 kilometre away from the school at Vrace.
22 Q. And you say then - can we go to the third page - you are saying
23 that General Mladic should call you urgently. You say:
24 "Some security chap has arrived, Boskovic from Belgrade
25 want to let the cadets go without weapons but to leave the weapons to
1 these Turks despite the agreement and the plans of our government and
2 General Mladic."
3 What were you referring to there? Shortly, please, Mr. Mandic.
4 A. There were two or three barracks, one of them was the Marsal Tito
5 barracks, and they were all surrounded by the Territorial Defence or
6 other members of the Muslim ethnicity. Inside were cadets, conscripts,
7 aged 16 and 17, and the Muslim Territorial Defence didn't want to let
8 them out. And this man from the security forces came from Belgrade to
9 get them out of the barracks peacefully, but the Muslim side imposed a
10 condition that all the weapons be left inside the barracks. I wanted to
11 inform the competent authorities, so I called Djeric, the prime minister,
12 Karadzic, the president of the state, and Krajisnik -- sorry, Mladic,
13 from the army, to let them know. I was still with the police at the
15 Q. This is before the 19th of May then?
16 A. I believe that was right at the beginning of May or even the end
17 of April. I don't know when these children were evacuated from the
18 barracks, because their water supply, their electricity supply had been
19 cut off. They had no food. They were in a very difficult position.
20 They were cadets, students, at this military school in the barracks.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... intervention in
22 the transcript. Page 10, line 18. It says the "preliminary" side. I
23 believe he said the "Muslim" side imposed a condition.
24 MS. KORNER: Yes, yes, he did. I heard that too.
25 [French on English Channel]
1 MS. KORNER: I'm now in French.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not possible.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. All right. And then can we very quickly have a look, please, at
5 another record of a conversation that you had, this time with
6 Mr. Prstojevic, which is document number 3256, tab 63.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I know that these were all given
8 numbers yesterday, but I have no idea what the numbers are, so I'm just
9 referring to them by 65 ter -- I mean, exhibit numbers.
10 Q. Mr. Mandic, we've now moved to the 2nd of June. Who is -- can
11 you just tell the Court, remind the Court, who Mr. Prstojevic was?
12 A. As far as I can remember, Prstojevic was the head of the Ilidza
14 Q. And you're speaking to him --
15 MS. KORNER: If you look at page 3 in English, and it's page 3
16 also in B/C/S.
17 Q. You ask him at the top of the page whether there are any
18 problems. And there's a discussion about where he comes from and what
19 Mr. Prstojevic does. And then you say this:
20 "It has come to our attention and that of the government that you
21 are issuing ultimatums to some Turks, evicting people from certain
22 settlements, and people respond badly to it. They are abusing this,
23 those Muslims and the media and so on."
24 And he says:
1 And you say:
2 "Please do not do anything like this. Consult with Djeric first
3 and those people up there, because this is very bad publicity for us and
4 for everyone. They have the civil option; they are killing and expelling
5 us. They have to be a little more flexible there ..."
6 MS. KORNER: And then can we go over the page in English.
7 Q. "... and not touch those Muslims who are willing to listen and
8 who are loyal. We cannot ethnically cleanse Ilidza or any other place.
9 At least that is the attitude of the government and the political
10 leadership and all. It has already reached the top how in some
11 settlement you gave them 24 hours to move out ..."
12 Now, stopping there for a moment. Why were you make this phone
13 call to Mr. Prstojevic?
14 A. I called him because, before me, Tomo Kovac made a call, who was
15 the chief of police, and he complained to me about Prstojevic's blocking
16 the whole of Ilidza and expelling the non-Serb populations. Since I knew
17 him personally, I called him and I told him that everyone, including
18 Mr. Djeric, was against that, that we shouldn't -- that he shouldn't
19 touch these people, that he should let them go. We had a problem with
20 Fadil Musanovic, who was a misdemeanor judge who wanted to do his work.
21 However, he expelled him from his job. I insisted on him being
22 reinstated in his position, that this was no way how things should be
23 done, this was not in the spirit of how Serbs operate, and it was
24 contrary to the Geneva Conventions. Because those people were not guilty
25 of anything. In mild terms, I tried to persuade him not to do what he
1 was doing.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. But Mr. Tomo Kovac, the chief of police, had informed me before
4 that about what he was doing, and that was very bad.
5 Q. All right. Well, we'll see, if we go on, we'll see what you then
7 Mr. Prstojevic says, well, effectively:
8 "We did say that, not in public."
9 And you say:
10 "I know what it should be and how we should operate."
11 And he insists:
12 "We didn't say it in public, nor did we write it down."
13 And then you say this:
14 "Please, in this context, you know what is necessary.
15 You are ... probably up there during the talks ... and how it should be
16 done and those Muslims who said that about us ... this has to be some
17 sort of protection." And there you refer to the judge you've just spoken
18 about. "In that context, Fadil Musanovic is a judge. But, look, talk to
19 him. If he has not already fled, place him to work for us so that we can
20 say that we employ everyone, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs, regardless of
21 nationality as long as they are loyal to the Serbian state. So have a
22 look, please, place two or three Muslims somewhere ..."
23 So, Mr. Mandic, were you saying there that, effectively, you need
24 to be able to say to the international community that everybody was
25 employed by Serbs?
1 A. There were some people who thought that only Serbs should be
2 filling certain positions.
3 As I said, in a mild terms and in a political way I tried to
4 persuade him to leave the non-Serbs where they lived and where they
5 worked. I didn't dare and I couldn't use any stronger terms, because I
6 didn't have any competence to do that. Rather, I resorted to a mild
7 political persuasion with a view to making him keep those people in their
8 places. There were many of such people in those smaller regions.
9 Q. Did you get the feeling that not everybody who was part of the
10 creation of the Serbian state realised, as you did, that it was important
11 that the international community should believe that everyone was able to
12 live within the Serbian state and be employed by them?
13 A. Of course, there were individuals who thought that only Serbs
14 should live in this Serbian state. I don't think there were too many of
15 such people like Prstojevic was.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just ask why you used the
17 expression in this element: "... place him to work for us so that we can
18 say that we employ everyone."
19 Say to whom that you employ everyone?
20 A. Because in the media outlets, Mr. Izetbegovic advocated for a
21 civilian state, and he kept insisting that all structures should be made
22 up of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. So I followed the same line and I said
23 that we should behave in the same manner that we, in other words, have
24 both Serbs and non-Serbs working and living there. That seems to me to
25 be only normal and logical because Bosnia-Herzegovina was a mixture of
1 ethnicities and you couldn't separate people, especially and particularly
2 along political lines.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I believe page 14, line 15, when it
4 starts "Because ..." should be marked as an answer.
5 MS. KORNER: He's quite right.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: It's the answer by the witness, and it's recorded
7 as your question.
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much.
9 Q. And finally, please, on this conversation.
10 MS. KORNER: If we look, please, at the next page in English and
11 I -- yes, I think the next page in B/C/S as well.
12 Q. Mr. Prstojevic says -- he's effectively talking about Hrasnica
13 and Sokolac and releasing Serbs. And then he says:
14 "Our misdemeanour court did not receive a single report. No one
15 submitted any."
16 And you say:
17 "Well, push Tomo Kovac and the police. Make them work. They're
18 looting there, disrupting public peace and order."
19 Firstly, when you say "looting there, disrupting public peace and
20 order," is that the police you're talking about?
21 A. No, I'm talking about the population, since Kovac was chief of
22 police, I was asking Mr. Prstojevic to enforce the police to engage the
23 police officers to prevent any disturbance of public law and order and to
24 prevent looting and that they should bring in the offenders, because you
25 see I say that there were gangs of thieves, war profiteers, et cetera,
1 and the police should do their job and arrest them.
2 Q. Well, thank you, Mr. Mandic, that's all I want to ask you on that
4 MS. KORNER: Can we move now, please, to document 2562, which is
5 tab 64.
6 Q. This is dated a few days after the conversation that you've just
7 had. It's 5th of June, and it's addressed to the Ministry of Justice,
8 and it's the delivery of the proposal of candidates for the judicial
9 bodies in Bijeljina. And we see that various proposals are made.
10 Did you get this document in your capacity by then, definitely as
11 minister of justice?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And we can see that the 18 candidates are proposed as judges.
14 Can you indicate which of those, as far as you're aware, are non-Serbs,
15 were non-Serbs?
16 A. In my letter, I had asked that the positions of both judges and
17 prosecutors be filled by people from all ethnic groups. You can see here
18 Cviko Adamovic is a Muslim; Vujic, Zivko is a Croat; Diko Pajkanovic, a
19 Muslim; Alma Salihbegovic, a Muslim; Alida Nadj-Madjarac, Muslim;
20 Gruhonjic Muhamed, a Muslim; and they were all appointed judges in the
21 Ministry of Justice of Republika Srpska.
22 Q. Right. Well, that's the next question I want to ask you. The
23 system was, wasn't it, that the Assembly had to ratify the appointments,
24 didn't they?
25 A. Yes, but it was based on my proposal that the Assembly made these
1 assignments. And these appointments were public in the Official Gazette
2 of Republika Srpska. Not only from the area of Bijeljina, but other
3 Serb-held territories, like Trebinje, Banja Luka, et cetera.
4 As far as the ethnic composition is concerned, the
5 Ministry of Justice completely reflected the composition of the
6 population living in those areas. And we insisted on that from day one.
7 Q. Yes. I want to ask you, please, is it your testimony that all of
8 these proposal for Bijeljina, the appointments, were made by the
10 A. Yes, yes. First President Karadzic signed their appointments
11 according to the constitution, and then it was transferred to the
12 Assembly to formerly confirm their appointments.
13 MS. KORNER: Sorry, would Your Honours just give me one moment.
14 As usual, I've just lost ... a document I was looking for.
15 Q. The appointments were published, you say, in the gazette. Is
16 that right, the Official Gazette of the Serbian People?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. All right. Can I just ask you this: Are you sure that, for
19 example, a leader - I can't pronounce her name, I'm
20 afraid - Nadj-Madjarac was appointed?
21 A. Dozens and dozens of judges and prosecutors of all nationalities
22 were appointed. Whether Alida had left in the meantime and was not
23 appointed, I cannot be positive. But can you see for yourself, if you
24 check the Official Gazette, that many people, non-Serbs, that is to say,
25 Croats and Muslims, were appointed to all kinds of posts in the
1 Ministry of Judiciary of Republika Srpska during my term of office.
2 Whether Alida particularly was appointed, I don't remember. I don't
3 remember even some other names. But I'm quite sure that these were the
4 candidates and that their names, on behalf of the Ministry of Justice,
5 were given and passed on as our proposals. I think that Alida only was
6 re-appointed, but maybe she left in the meantime. I have no particular
7 details about any specific case.
8 Q. Mr. Mandic, just so that you understand, I'm not suggesting that
9 you didn't put these people forward at all. What I'm asking you now, and
10 we're going to look at the Banja Luka ones in a little more detail, is
11 whether you are able to tell us whether, either that lady or indeed
12 Mr. Gruhonjic Muhamed, the Assembly actually approved those appointments?
13 A. I can categorically assert that all my proposals were endorsed by
14 the Assembly and Dr. Radovan Karadzic. If some of those persons left
15 Republika Srpska, went to the Federation, or went abroad, which happened,
16 then most probably if they were absent their appointments were not
17 confirmed. But as far as my proposals are concerned, relating to
18 non-Serbs, none of my proposals had ever been rejected by either
19 Dr. Karadzic or the Assembly. I am positive on that.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
21 A. -- solely based on the grounds that they were a Muslim or a
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... okay. We'll leave that
24 topic for the moment.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,
2 JUDGE HALL
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1325, Your Honours.
4 MS. KORNER: Now, can we next, please, look at, very briefly, at
5 the minutes of the government for the 10th of June, which is P260 -- oh,
6 no, sorry, it's not. It's P179.7.
7 Q. As I say, minutes of the 10th of June. You and Mico Stanisic are
8 both there.
9 MS. KORNER: And can we go, please, in English to the third page;
10 and in B/C/S, it's the second page, under Agenda item 7.
11 Q. We see there that the Ministry of Justice should make a report
12 about prisoners. The report should pay special attention on the
13 treatment of the civilian population, prisoners of war, accommodation,
14 food, et cetera, and the report would be considered by the government,
15 after which it would be submitted to the Presidency.
16 Now, did that arise because there had been complaints about the
17 treatment of the civilian population in particular?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And -- and -- and where -- who had been making the complaints?
20 A. The government received information to that effect, either
21 through the police or the municipal authorities or individuals from
22 municipalities. Because at one point all the municipalities started
23 acting like mini states, and they established their mini prisons.
24 In the process of creating Republika Srpska and the authority, an
25 attempt was made to centralise this and to have all the prisons and all
1 the reception facilities be governed by law and by the international
2 humanitarian law.
3 Q. You spoke about this, Mr. Mandic, thank you, in your previous
4 testimony. So I don't need take that any further. All right, thank you.
5 That's all --
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... about that. Let me just
8 check ...
9 Yes. Because I think we see the results of this. Could you have
10 a look, please, at document ... P427.11.
11 Now, this is the meeting held five days after the last one. You
12 actually weren't present, but you sent Mr. -- is it Lale, Vojin Lale?
13 A. Vojin Lale.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... on your behalf?
15 MS. KORNER: And if we go, please, in this one, to the fourth
16 page in English; and in -- it's also the fourth page in B/C/S,
17 Agenda item 10.
18 In fact -- I suppose we should have looked at the second page --
19 sorry, can we just go to the second page first, because we need to see
20 what Agenda item 10 was. Second page in each.
21 Agenda item 10 was the -- a report and proposed measures for
22 improving the work of the Central Committee for an exchange of prisoners
23 of war, detained persons, and bodies of killed persons that are left
24 behind the enemy lines.
25 And then, if we go back to where I originally was, discussion of
1 Agenda 10 on the fourth page.
2 The government has considered the proposed report. It's been
3 concluded that the issue of prisoners exchange is extremely important,
4 complex, and delicate, and that if sufficient attention is not paid to
5 it, it can cause a number of negative consequences for the whole
7 Q. I know you weren't there, Mr. Mandic, but I assume Mr. Lale
8 reported to you. What was it that might cause negative consequences?
9 A. Since we were receiving bad news about ill-treatment of detained
10 people in individual municipalities, the government decided to set up a
11 very strong group, consisting of the Prime Minister Djeric;
12 Milan Trbojevic; Dragan Kalinic, health minister; Mico Stanisic, chief of
13 police; Bogdan Subotic, defence minister; and myself as the minister of
14 justice in order to consider all these problems and find quick solutions.
15 That was a major problem for Republika Srpska and also for the people who
16 were held in municipal detention units and prisons. That had to be given
17 immediate attention and solved. And since this commission was not able
18 to resolve this issue, we had to include and involve the highest
19 officials in order to prevent any unlawful arrests and detention of
21 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Mandic. That's all I want to ask you
22 about that document.
23 MS. KORNER: Can we move, now, to document number 70, please --
24 sorry, 1D95, once we've correlated Defence exhibits with ours.
25 Q. This is apparently a report by somebody called
1 Dr. Nikola Poplasen. Did you know him?
2 A. Yes, I did know Dr. Poplasen.
3 Q. And it says he was a commissioner at the republic level. What
4 exactly was his job?
5 A. The Presidency of Republika Srpska appointed him to govern the
6 municipality of Vogosca and to disband the Crisis Staff in that
8 Q. And he says, under number 3:
9 "As the prison in Vogosca is considered illegal by our legal
10 regulations, this prison is to be immediately transformed into a
11 department of penitentiary and correctional facility in Butmir or Pale
12 and investigative judge as well as warden to be appointed. This is the
13 task the Ministry of Justice."
14 What was illegal about the prison there?
15 A. The item 3 of this letter seems to be written by a layperson.
16 Who could bring an investigating judge? Of course, the
17 Ministry of Justice is in charge. There were two prisons there, formed
18 by -- set up by the Vogosca municipality. But with the establishment of
19 the Ministry of Justice and with the establishment of prisons, remand
20 prisons attached to district courts, this prison was abolished. And the
21 prisoners were transferred to military prisons, if they were military
22 personnel, and civilians were released; whereas, persons under
23 investigation were transferred to courts. All these local prisons were
24 abolished, prisons that were set up in all sorts of gymnasiums and
25 similar buildings. The man rightly said they were illegal.
1 Q. So this -- was this an example of the problem that you had been
2 discussing at government level about prisons and -- and treatment of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you say "civilians were released," do you mean people
6 who didn't come under the category of either those had who had committed
7 crimes or those who had carried arms?
8 A. That was within the purview of the state commission which
9 cooperated with the commission of the Federation. They checked between
10 themselves the status of prisoners and the exchange of prisoners and the
11 release of civilians and other persons. It was not only the ministry who
12 decided who was a civilian or not; it was the state commission for
13 exchange and the army, which had sole responsibility under military
14 provisions to release non-Serbs detained in various prisons.
15 Q. Well, just a moment. Can we just look at that answer for a
17 You say that it was the army that had sole responsibility under
18 military provisions to release non-Serbs detained in various persons. If
19 the army had arrested combatants or whatever and declared them prisoners
20 of war and placed them in places like Manjaca, then presumably they had
21 responsibility for the prisoners.
22 But what happened if police had arrested people and put them in
24 A. If that belonged to the jurisdiction of the military prosecutor's
25 office, they were transferred to the military prosecutor's office. If
1 something fell within the jurisdiction of civilian prosecution, they were
2 transferred to civilian Prosecution.
3 However, in actual fact, 5 per cent -- sorry, 95 per cent fell
4 within the jurisdiction of the military prosecution because they
5 abandoned the front lines, deserted, and -- for various other reasons.
6 That's why I asked that at certain point in time to integrate all that
7 and to introduce the rule of law. Because the civilian prosecution, once
8 established, had little to do. And the military prosecution, which had a
9 lot of work to do, had not been established. And lots of problems were
10 perpetuated by that in the territory of Republika Srpska.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness is, again, talking very fast, and I
12 believe at least 30 per cent was not recorded with -- what he said. Then
13 what is recorded appears not to -- to have much sense in my opinion.
14 So maybe we can ask the witness to repeat his answer from the
15 beginning slowly.
16 MS. KORNER: Well, provided it's knocked off my time, I don't
18 Q. Mr. Mandic, I'm afraid, as you've heard from Mr. Zecevic, you're
19 speaking quite fast. And it's important that we get the full translation
20 of your answer.
21 You were talking about or I asked you about if civilian police
22 arrested someone and placed them in prison who would have the authority
23 to deal with them, and you then gave an answer in respect of -- as I
24 understand it, you said that if something fell within the civilian
25 prosecution, they were transferred to civilian prosecution. And then you
1 went on to say that 95 per cent fell within the jurisdiction of the
2 military prosecution.
3 Now, can you just explain what you were talking about, quite
5 A. If something happened involving damage to property or injury to a
6 person or God forbid a killing or something and the civilian police comes
7 out, during the on-site investigation they establish exactly what it's
8 about, whether the crime concerned belongs to military prosecution or
9 civilian prosecution. All persons between 18 to 55 years of age fell
10 under the jurisdiction of the military prosecution and military
11 judiciary. So 95 per cent of all offences fell within the jurisdiction
12 of the military prosecution and judiciary. The civilian police would
13 come to a crime scene, establish that it concerns the military
14 prosecution, and submit it to military prosecution. However, if they
15 establish it falls under the jurisdiction of the civilian prosecution,
16 they hand the case over to civilian prosecution. But that happened very
17 seldom. Although, in my opinion, the civilian prosecution was better
18 organised at the time.
19 Q. Now, what I really want to deal with was you've told us that the
20 definition of a civilian would be a matter for whoever was in charge
21 of -- of the prisons. What did -- what was your definition is what I
22 want to know, Mr. Mandic, of what a civilian was who was released?
23 Because you said civilians were released.
24 A. The only authority that could decide who was a civilian or not
25 was the army, the commander of that territory. And that was under the
1 decree of the minister in charge of the army and on the orders of the
2 president of the Republic. Namely, that the status of detainees had to
3 be established beyond doubt.
4 So nobody but the commander of the army on that territory was
5 competent. It was clearly stipulated in the -- in the decree, in the
6 military decree, written by Bogdan Subotic, I believe.
7 Q. Let's -- leaving aside areas where there were military manoeuvres
8 going on or military action, in an area where, for example, there was no
9 fighting going on at all, who would decide who had been wrongly placed
10 in -- in prison, who was a civilian?
11 A. Only the competent military commander.
12 Q. Even though people who had been, let's say, picked up and placed
13 in prison in Vogosca who were civilians, because you've just told us
14 civilians were released?
15 A. Yes. And Major Trifunovic was in charge for the territory of
16 Vogosca and he was the only one authorised to say who was a civilian or
17 not. Not a civilian authority, not the police force could do that,
18 because the state of immediate threat of war had been declared already,
19 and everything was the responsibility of the military commander in the
20 given area.
21 Q. So as far as you were concerned, this Mr. Poplasen who was saying
22 that there was an illegal prison and being kept there and that
23 civilians - as you told us, although the document doesn't say
24 that - should be released, that was decided entirely by the army?
25 A. Only the army could do that in cooperation with the Crisis Staff
1 of the given municipality. However, the last word belonged to the army.
2 Q. All right. Let's move, then, shall we, please, to the transcript
3 of the 17th Session of the Assembly. Very briefly.
4 MS. KORNER: 928, please. Which was held in July of -- oh,
5 sorry, no, I think it's been exhibited. P199.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]
7 MS. KORNER: Yes, tab 71.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, I take it you were there. This was in July,
9 24th to 26th of July. And in a large part it dealt with the setting up
10 of the organisation of courts and judges and the like.
11 MS. KORNER: If we look at page 6 in English; and in B/C/S, it's
12 the fifth page.
13 Q. We see --
14 MS. KORNER: No, well it must -- it's not the fifth page in B/C/S
15 then. Well, it should be. But we should have -- yeah, thank you.
16 Q. We see that item 20 is:
17 "Decision regarding the organisation and jurisdictions of
18 military courts and military prosecutors."
19 Decision on the actual jurisdiction of regular courts, basic
21 MS. KORNER: And then if we go, please, to page 7 in English and
22 page 6 in B/C/S.
23 Q. We see there item 47 -- well, item 42 and 41 -- sorry.
24 Decision founding a state documentation centre for researching of
25 war crimes against Serbs?
1 Decision 42: Appointing the director of state documentation
2 centre for researching of war crimes against Serbs.
3 And then 47: Foca, basic court, Trebinje, Visegrad, and so on
4 and so forth.
5 And then if we go down the page we see prosecutors. Is that
6 right? So that was the first major Assembly, or that was the first
7 Assembly that dealt in a large part with the judicial system?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And could you confirm you were actually present?
10 A. I probably was, since the agenda included so many affairs in the
11 purview of the justice ministry.
12 Q. All right. Can I just ask you to consider something that was
13 said by, I believe it was Mr. Krajisnik in his introduction. No. I
14 believe it was Mr. Micic. Oh, no. I'm so sorry, it was Mr. Krajisnik.
15 MS. KORNER: Now, it's at page 18 of the document in English; and
16 it's at page 15 in the Cyrillic.
17 And it's about halfway down -- it's at the top -- I believe it's
18 the top of the page in the Cyrillic and it's halfway down in English.
19 It's a sentence beginning: "Militarily ..."
20 It's about halfway through the page.
21 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear the witness.
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. I'm sorry, they can't hear you, Mr. Mandic. Have you found the
24 paragraph that begins: "Militarily we are in an excellent position"?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm just asking, for the purposes of the
2 English, please, if we could highlight from approximately halfway down
3 the page. That's it. Absolutely. Thank you.
4 Q. "Militarily we are in an excellent position; our foreign
5 political position is terrible; our domestic political situation is very
6 good, being that our people are fully in favour of fighting, that is,
7 peace. Because we do not have any more reason to fight, we have
8 liberated almost everything that is ours. In final talks we could even
9 return some territories and villages that do not belong to us."
10 Now, did you understand that what was being said was that
11 everything that the Serbs had claimed was their territory had, in fact,
12 almost been achieved and, indeed, some things had been taken which didn't
13 belong to the Serbs?
14 A. Well, I can only comment. I was not really knowledgeable about
15 those military tasks and conquests. I really don't know. I don't have
16 an opinion.
17 Is that Mr. Krajisnik or Mr. Micic?
18 Q. It's Mr. Krajisnik. Well -- I mean, you were a minister in the
19 government and you were attending government meetings. Was there any
20 discussion about the fact that in the course of this military action in
21 fact territories had been seised and villages that actually couldn't even
22 remotely be claimed as Serb?
23 A. Government is the civilian authority of state administration.
24 For military affairs, there was another body in charge consisting of five
25 or six people in the top military echelon and the government never
1 discussed military successes or actions or failures. Look at all the
2 minutes; you will see that they didn't.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... how I read the
4 page 8 in Serbian, those are the --
5 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... well, in that case, can I
6 ask the witness to read it out and we'll get a translation.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay, okay.
8 MS. KORNER: Certainly.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Because the different person is talking; it's not
10 Mr. Karadzic. That's what I wanted to --
11 MS. KORNER: No, I didn't say it was Karadzic.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: I say it was -- it was --
13 MS. KORNER: Oh, you say it was Karadzic, do you? All right,
14 sorry. I see.
15 Q. You don't mean there is something wrong with the translation
16 here, you mean that the speaker is mis -- I have misidentified the
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, because you said that Mr. Krajisnik is
19 talking. And it's apparent that Mr. Krajisnik gives the floor to the
20 president of Republika Srpska. So those are the words of Mr. Karadzic.
21 MS. KORNER: Right. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that.
22 Q. But the -- Mr. Karadzic, as we've heard, and -- I mean, it was
23 the supreme commander of the army, wasn't he?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And are you telling us that you -- there was never any discussion
1 about the fact that in the course of -- of carrying out the objectives of
2 the -- of the government of the Republika Srpska, the army had gone
4 A. As for the fighting, the combat, there was a military command
5 headed by the President of the Republic. And there were people who did
6 that only and discussed only about that. I believe there were members of
7 the Presidency in that circle, the President, Biljana Plavsic,
8 Nikola Koljevic, Mr. Karadzic, Branko Djeric, and probably the minister
9 of defence or not I'm sure, and Ratko Mladic. These people discussed
10 these affairs and informed the MPs about losses and gains in territory.
11 We, in the government, did not discuss these things. We are the civilian
12 authority concentrating on completely different things.
13 Q. All right. Well, I just want to ask you one other -- two other
14 things, maybe, about this meeting in the five minutes before the break.
15 Can you go -- could we go in English, please, to page 65 and in
16 the B/C/S to page 67, where the gentleman who you had the phone
17 conversation, Mr. Prstojevic, speaks.
18 And what he says here is:
19 "When the Serbs started the uprising in Sarajevo and when they
20 seised control over certain territories, there was no government or at
21 least it was not known where it was then. Didn't even know Mr. Karadzic
22 was alive. When we learnt he was alive and when he visited us in Ilidza
23 and encouraged us, the Serbs from Sarajevo
24 territory and even extended their territory in some areas, driving the
25 Muslims out of territories where they'd actually been in a majority."
1 Now, that appears to be carrying along the same line from what
2 Mr. Karadzic was saying. You knew Mr. Prstojevic, and you rang him up to
3 tell him to stop driving Muslims out. Had he actually taken any notice
4 of what you'd said to him?
5 A. Well, I learned about those activities of his from Tomo Kovac a
6 few days before. And in one intercept I even suggested to Kovac that he
7 arrest or kill the man because he was creating problems to everyone in
8 Ilidza, the authorities and the police. He was really destructive. And,
9 you see, he was denying the existence of the government and that
10 Radovan Karadzic was alive, et cetera.
11 My opinion of Mr. Prstojevic and his ilk could not be worse.
12 Those people created most of the problems, and many of them ended up here
13 in The Hague
14 Q. Well, you see -- but, Mr. Mandic, to your knowledge, did anybody
15 stand up in the Assembly that you were at and say what Mr. Prstojevic
16 just said is - or words to that effect - is an outrage, and what he has
17 done is illegal and a crime?
18 A. I don't know whether Mr. Prstojevic was a member of the
19 parliament or in what capacity he was speaking. I wasn't really
20 listening. That man didn't interest me. I didn't want to know his views
21 or listen to his speeches. They obstructed the government and everything
22 that was going on. He wasn't even an extremist. I think it was all
23 grand standing and attempts to ingratiate themselves to the Serbian
25 Q. All right. Well, in fact, at the end of that session - and I
1 don't think I need to trouble you - all the decisions were taken in
2 respect of the courts.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 MS. KORNER: It would be, Your Honour, yes, because it's the end
5 of this document.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, while the -- while the witness is
11 ushered in, I have an intervention in the transcript, 31, line 4, first,
12 I suggested -- I believe the witness said, I suggested to Tomo Kovac to
13 arrest him, meaning, Prstojevic, because he was creating problems to
14 everyone in Ilidza.
15 And then 31, 9, he said, Those people created most of the
16 problems, and because of them many others ended up here in The Hague
17 That is what the witness says. Maybe this can be clarified with the
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm not at all sure what -- what
25 Mr. Zecevic wants clarified. Perhaps Mr. Zecevic can just repeat what he
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, page 31, line 4, the witness, I believe,
3 said - and this can be clarified: I suggested to Tomo Kovac that he
4 should arrest Prstojevic because he was creating problems to everyone in
6 That's one thing.
7 And the second thing is page 31, line 9, it is recorded as:
8 "Those people created most of the problems, and many of them
9 ended up here in The Hague
10 That is not what he said. He says:
11 "Because of them, many others ended up in The Hague."
12 That is -- that was the intervention.
13 MS. KORNER: All right.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. Mr. Mandic, did you hear that? I certainly agree that I heard
17 you say that you suggested that Kovac arrest Mr. Prstojevic. And do you
18 agree that's what you said?
19 A. Yes. You have this intercept in your documents where I state
20 that Kovac should arrest Prstojevic. And I said that because of him and
21 people like him, many other peoples ended up in The Hague.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
23 A. The people like Prstojevic, I mean.
24 Q. All right. Thank you. Mr. Mandic, can I ask you briefly to look
25 at another intercept. I'm afraid that we skipped forward to July by
1 mistake, because I would like to stay in June for a bit.
2 Could you have a look, please, at the document which is numbered
3 P1134 this -- oh, sorry, it's tab 73. Sorry, Mr. Zecevic.
4 It's a conversation between you and Mr. Krajisnik on the
5 26th of June, and I think maybe we'd better just look at the context. At
6 the bottom of page 1 in English Mr. Krajisnik asks you how does -- how is
7 everything go. And then over to page 2 in English and -- and in B/C/S.
8 And Krajisnik then says that -- there are two things: He wanted
9 to see if Stanisic was there, to see what is happening with this.
10 And it's not at all clear. I don't know whether you can assist,
11 Mr. Mandic. It would probably help if I give you --
12 MS. KORNER: Or if Mr. Zecevic, perhaps, would be kind enough to
13 give the -- because mine's marked, would it be possible to give over
14 your -- the B/C/S copy? That would be -- I think it's easier for
15 Mr. Mandic if he just looks at it. I'm sorry about that.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated] ... was reading. I
17 wasn't following what you were asking, I'm sorry.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. If you just have a look, please, very quickly, Mr. Mandic, at the
20 first page and at the context. It's not clear what that's about. And
21 then on to the second page where he -- Mr. Krajisnik says:
22 "I wanted to see if Stanisic was there, to see with him what is
23 happening with this."
24 A. I don't know what this is about.
25 Q. All right. Well, in fact, what I wanted to ask but was this.
1 Krajisnik asks you at the bottom of the third page:
2 "Have you released the one I told you about by any chance?"
3 And you said:
5 And he repeated yes.
6 And then you said:
7 "He left for Vrbanja approximately one hour ago."
8 And Krajisnik said:
9 "Thank God."
10 And you said:
11 "Karamehmedovic, right?"
12 And that he's gone.
13 Now, can you tell us what -- clearly you released somebody called
14 the name I have so much difficulty with, Karamehmedovic; do you remember
16 A. No. It's probably a friend of President Momcilo Krajisnik. He
17 was probably somewhere in the Serb territory, and I took him to Vrbanja,
18 which was on the border between the Serb and Muslim-held territories.
19 Probably he left for Sarajevo
20 all about. But I can't recall this conversation. But this is definitely
21 to do with a person of Muslim ethnicity as far as I can discern from
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, it says "released." So do we take it from that that
24 this gentleman was, in fact, a prisoner somewhere?
25 A. I'm not sure, Madam Prosecutor.
1 Q. All right. But, did you -- all I want to know, actually, was did
2 you have the authority, as the minister of justice, to order the release
3 of people?
4 A. No. No, I didn't have that kind of authority. Only the army
5 could do that, if non-Serbs were detained.
6 Now, whether I went to see some of the commanders and asked him
7 to release this person or whether it was on Krajisnik's intervention, I
8 can't say. This is the first time I'm seeing this.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you see, because -- he's
10 saying not: "Have you arranged with the army to release it," but he is
11 saying to you: "Have you released the one ..." Which is why I'm asking
12 you the question.
13 Isn't it right that you did actually have the authority to get
14 people released, non-Serbs?
15 A. No, I didn't have that authority.
16 Q. All right. Can we go to the next part which is the part that I'm
17 also interested in.
18 Mr. Krajisnik says:
19 "What about Milos
20 And you said:
21 "President, I put it on the list. The first exchange it will be
22 finished. Check it down there, do have you anyone down there, can you
23 contact someone?"
24 And you say:
25 "There is this Vukic, a member of the youth organisation, a Serb,
1 who is criticising because we have 400 prisoners here, you know."
2 And Mr. Krajisnik said:
3 "Who is criticising?"
4 And you said:
5 "I've got 400.
6 "And who is criticising?" Repeats Mr. Krajisnik. That this
7 Filip Vukovic, the member of the youth organisation.
8 Now, were those 400 anything to do with the list of 400 that we
9 saw a way back in May, the list of Muslims?
10 A. This means that the state commission compiled lists and carried
11 out exchanges. This Vukovic was probably the chairman of the commission
12 from the Federation for exchange of POWs. These exchanges took place in
13 Lukavica in the penal/correctional facility Butmir. And the state
14 commission for exchange could not carry out exchanges without such lists.
15 This was the government commission that was established I don't know
17 Q. Yes, but -- I'm sorry, the -- Mr. Vukovic is apparently a member
18 of a youth organisation, nothing to do with -- with the -- well, he's
19 the -- sorry, I beg your pardon. He's the president of the exchange
21 But you're saying "We have 400 prisoners." Now what I'm asking
22 is: Are those 400 anything to do with the list of 400 that we saw from
24 A. Vukovic was the chairman of the exchange commission on behalf of
25 the Federation. He was a youth executive before the war in the Socialist
1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm saying here that there were 400
2 people in Lukavica to be exchanged by the state commission, and he was
3 the chairman of that commission. He was well known as Tito's youth, who
4 he was the president of the youth organisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 Q. And were those 400 people, were they civilians?
6 A. I don't know. I don't know, Madam Prosecutor. I don't know who
7 these people were.
8 Q. All right. Well, we'll leave that. Thank you very much. I
9 don't want to spend any more time on it.
10 MS. KORNER: Can we go next, please, to a document which is
11 P1157. Tab 76.
12 Q. This is a conversation between you and Mr. Karadzic on the
13 1st of July.
14 MS. KORNER: And if we go, please, to page 2.
15 Q. And he's asking you - Mr. Karadzic - first of all, What's up,
17 MS. KORNER: I'm not on the right page, just a moment, in the
18 B/C/S. Yes. And -- that's right.
19 Q. And you say:
20 "Not much. I have just been to a government session, and I'm
22 And you say:
23 "We're working on an exchange now. We're evacuating some Serbs
24 from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija?"
25 "Very important," says Karadzic. "We'll immediately mobilise
1 those fit for combat. How many will there be?
2 "I don't really know. We have many on the list."
3 And then you say:
4 "There are 300 people from Hadzici, Muslims who have been kept
5 here for seven days. No one's inquired about them. No one seems to
6 care. I don't know what to do."
7 You say:
8 "Nobody's interested in them."
9 And finally you say:
10 "... so we'll try to exchange them for people from Hrasnica."
11 Now, these 300 people from Hadzici, where were they being kept?
12 A. As far as can I remember, at the time, the Chairman of the
13 exchange commission resigned. And I personally coordinated the work of
14 the state commission for exchange when the exchanges were being carried
15 out in Butmir between the two warring parties. They were kept at the
16 penal and correctional facility in Butmir, and they had been brought in
17 from the culture centre in Hadzici when all these local centres were
18 being closed all across Sarajevo
19 Q. So they were being kept in Butmir, or Kula I think it was
20 called --
21 A. They were kept in a gym in Hadzici, if I remember correctly. And
22 they were brought to Butmir to be exchanged. A list was made, and the
23 exchange was to take place at the airfield which was 100 metres from the
24 penal and correctional facility building. And I informed the president
25 of the Republic, among other people, about this. However, this
1 commission that was led by Filip Vukovic from the Federation didn't want
2 to take these people on board because they didn't have space to provide
3 accommodation for them.
4 Q. And you say that nobody inquired about them, nobody seems to
5 care. What sort of people were they?
6 A. I don't know. I can't remember. They were probably civilians,
7 because only exchange was involved. People were to be released, but the
8 other side didn't want to receive them because they didn't have enough
9 space to accommodate them in Sarajevo
10 their actual status was. I coordinated the work of all these state
11 commissions for exchange of POWs. And I was down there on a completely
12 different errand, because President Karadzic had asked me to locate a
13 Croat and to let him go to Split
14 Q. I was going come on to that because we see that's the next part
15 of the conversation.
16 So it's not just Mr. Krajisnik who wants you to release people.
17 Mr. Karadzic was also asking you. Is that right?
18 A. No. He had sent me to find this man and to do my best to release
19 him and let him go to Split
20 President Karadzic. This person was a friend of his. He had lived in
22 Q. Yes. But this is the point, Mr. Mandic, that we keep coming back
23 to. You keep saying only the army could order release. But this is
24 clearly a man who is in prison at Kula who is a friend of Mr. Karadzic.
25 He is asking to you release him, isn't he?
1 A. That's not right. Look at the beginning of the conversation. I
2 first talk to the corps commander.
3 Q. Mr. Sipcic?
4 A. Yes. And he was the one who decided who would be released or
5 not, as a corps commander. And he was the only one who could either
6 approve or disprove of someone's release. No one could be either
7 detained or released without his knowledge.
8 Now, the fact that I intervened and asked for this favour, of
9 course, a corps commander would try to do his best and to fulfil the
10 request of the President. I was just a mediator in the whole affair.
11 Q. But, I'm sorry, nowhere in this conversation is there any
12 suggestion that he is the one who is going to arrange the release. Is
13 there, Mr. Mandic?
14 A. It was I who organised it and arranged it, but he had given
15 approval. Of course, a corps commander was not going to go and look for
16 some person. It was up to me to conduct this private arrangement for
17 this Croat to be released because I spent most of the time down there. I
18 wasn't either in Sarajevo
19 Q. All right. Well, the conversation about this family, in fact,
20 because it talks about three brothers, goes on. And you say you will
21 make further inquires and call him back in five minutes.
22 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, that's on the third page in English and
23 also in B/C/S.
24 Q. And then further down I just want to ask you about this, please.
25 Mr. Karadzic says:
1 "The thing with the Greeks should be strengthened."
2 And you say:
3 "I don't know."
4 And then you say:
5 "Our Mico has left, hasn't he?"
6 Who are you referring to there?
7 A. I don't know. I don't know which Mico I was referring to. There
8 were at least ten of them, Mico Majicic [as interpreted], Mico Stanisic,
9 Mico Tesic.
10 Q. Well, maybe the context will help you, because Karadzic says:
11 "I don't know why he's doing this after all."
12 And you say:
13 "I don't.
14 "He's not suitable for this kind of thing at all."
15 And you said:
16 "I don't get this thing, Mr. President. I mean, if we need to
17 have someone up there to coordinate things, we can, but we need someone
18 to work permanently on the establishment of such a service."
19 Now, does that help you as to which Mico you were referring to?
20 A. I don't know. Could it be someone from the
21 State Security Service? Mico Polic? I don't know. Probably.
22 Q. All right. Well, let's not guess. All right, thank you. That's
23 all I want to ask you about this.
24 Now can we go back, please, to the question of the appointments.
25 MS. KORNER: Could we have a look at document number 2722, which
1 is tab 77.
2 Q. It's a document dated the 6th of July, and it's actually -- it
3 appears from the public prosecutor's office in Banja Luka. And it says:
4 "Please find attached a list of" -- somebody carefully stamped
5 draft translation over it, but I think it says, "deputies to the,"
6 something, prosecution, "prosecutor who are being nominated with brief
7 personal information ..."
8 Now is this a document that you got?
9 A. No. This document was addressed and sent to Banja Luka
10 municipality for coordination, pursuant to an initiative by the
11 prosecutor proposing his deputy. Once it has been coordinated in
12 Banja Luka, then it would have been sent to the ministry in Sarajevo
13 This was an internal regional coordination of personnel to fill
14 the positions of deputy prosecutors. The public prosecutor made his
15 proposals to Banja Luka
16 according to the law, and once it has been agreed, then this kind of
17 harmonised and dovetailed document would then be sent to the ministry.
18 Q. Right. Okay. As we'll see from the discussion at the Assembly,
19 you obviously did at some stage get this document. But can we just look
20 very quickly at some of the nationalities of those who were proposed.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we go, first of all, the first two pages for
22 persons nominated all deal with Serbs, because the ethnicity or
23 nationality is given.
24 Could we go to the fourth page of this document. Sorry, it's the
25 third page in B/C/S. Third page. Thank you.
1 Q. Number 11, Ahmed Kapetanovic, who is a Muslim.
2 A. Six, 7, and 5 are also Muslims.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm -- I'm sorry, but we lost the LiveNote.
4 MS. KORNER: So did we.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at numbers 6 and 7,
7 their ethnicity.
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, sorry, Mr. Mandic, I'm afraid there's a
9 technical problem at the moment.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 minutes. Is counsel terribly handicapped by the loss of the LiveNote?
12 Do we have to take a break, in other words?
13 MS. KORNER: It's working on this. It's only not working on --
14 yes, if we could go on. It's not working on ours, but it's working here.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, we can. As far as the Defence is concerned,
16 we can proceed, because we have it on the -- on the central monitor. We
17 don't have on our monitors. But if it's a sort time, we can live with
18 that. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mandic, you were saying --
22 All right, let's go back -- can we go back, please -- you say
23 5, 6, and 7 were non-Serbs. I don't think so. Not for prosecutors. Can
24 we go back, please, to the second -- I'm sorry, it's the third page in
1 A. No, no. Look at the list of judges.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry. I'm coming to
3 judges. Was the prosecutors, one prosecutor, number 11, was --
4 Now let's look at the judges --
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, fifth page in English and fourth page in
7 Q. Number 3 of the proposed judges is a Croat. Number 5 is a
9 MS. KORNER: If we go, please, in English to the next page.
10 THE WITNESS: Number 8.
11 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... coming. The
12 English doesn't correspond with the same page.
13 Q. I think it's number 9, not number 8, is a Muslim.
14 Mirsada Hadzic.
15 MS. KORNER: And then can we go, please, in English to page 7,
16 and in B/C/S, to - one, two, three, four, five - fifth page.
17 Q. Number 13, a Croat. Number 14, a Croat.
18 MS. KORNER: And can we go to the next page, please.
19 Q. Number 19, although it's crossed out, Mr. Pejic was a Yugoslav.
20 He declared himself a Yugoslav. But by his name, what nationality would
21 he be it?
22 A. It could be a Serb, it could be a Croat. The Pejic surname is
23 common to both.
24 Q. Number 20 also declared herself a Yugoslav. From the name, a
25 Muslim, [indiscernible].
1 A. Yes, it's a Muslim first name and a Muslim last name.
2 Q. Right. Then number 24 -- could, we go -- we need to see the next
3 page, because that says --
4 A. Slovenka.
5 Q. So that's a Slovenian. Number 25, Muslim; number 26, Muslim;
6 number 29, although it's crossed out, a Yugoslav?
7 A. Yugoslav.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes.
9 MS. KORNER: Then we need to go to the next page in English,
10 please. Number 35. And the next page in B/C/S.
11 Number 35 is a Croat.
12 And to number 4 -- the rest, I believe, on that page, the next
13 are all Serbs.
14 Number 44, which is on the next page and in B/C/S as well.
15 Number 44 is a Muslim.
16 And I think that's it.
17 And then, finally, could we look at the note which is on the next
18 page in English, and -- yeah. No, sorry, oh, yes, no, yeah.
19 Q. And item number C:
20 "In accordance with the agreement reached with the members of the
21 Ministry of Justice" --
22 MS. KORNER: And we need to go over the page English. Thank you.
23 Q. "... we have respected ethnic parity."
24 And it's signed by Mr. Radic, dated the 13th of July.
25 Now, did you, at some stage, even if not in this form, get the
1 list of candidates like this?
2 A. We did receive nominations and then we made appointments or,
3 rather, we submitted nomination to the president of the republic to sign
4 appointments for various municipalities. And it is certain that in
5 Banja Luka people of all ethnicities were enrolled in both the
6 prosecutor's office and in the judiciary, people who fulfilled all the
7 requires for the posts. Because in our letters, we would ask the
8 principle of ethnic parity to be respected, equal representation of
9 various ethnic groups, as per the ethnic structure at the moment of the
10 outbreak of war.
11 Q. Yes.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I ask that this be admitted and
13 marked, because you will see that it is connected with the next document
14 that I'm going to show. I know he didn't get it in this particular form,
15 but he says he is aware of the nominations.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1326, Your Honours.
19 MS. KORNER: All right.
20 Q. I now want to you have a look, please, at the Assembly session at
21 which you were certainly present because you spoke where these
22 appointments were discussed.
23 MS. KORNER: Which is, please, document number 7 -- P738, tab 93.
24 Q. It was actually held on the 12th of August in Banja Luka. And
25 after Mr. Krajisnik opened the session, you spoke, you see, and said you
1 propose to include in the agenda the election and the appointment of the
2 judges of the Banja Luka lower court and deputy prosecutor in Banja Luka
3 So you were clearly there, Mr. Mandic. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Well, let's move to the taking of the vote, which we
6 will see on page 24, I hope, in English. And in the B/C/S -- sorry.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's quite [indiscernible]. Sorry,
8 it's not that far. I made a mistake. Sorry, Your Honours. I'll
9 just ...
10 Yes. Sorry, yes I've got it. It's page -- first of all,
11 10 in English; and then in B/C/S, it's the same page.
12 Q. We see there that the first item in the agenda is the appointment
13 of judges. And you speak again about 50 judges being proposed.
14 And Mr. Krajisnik - is this right, because it just says chairman,
15 I think - says, I hereby open a separate debate on every judge,
17 And the first one is Vesna Antonic.
18 Now, this is why I asked you about Bijeljina because what he says
19 is this:
20 "I would only like to reiterate the conclusions from a session in
21 Pale when we discussed the appointment of judges to the lower court in
22 Bijeljina. At that time Mr. Bijelic gave an acceptable explanation that
23 we should not appoint judges of different nationality until the issue is
24 resolved, that this will be a state of Serbs and other citizens while the
25 rights of citizens and positions to which they can be appointed would be
1 decided later. Therefore, I believe, if we reach such conclusions in
2 Pale, we could then delay the appointment of judges until a constitution
3 precisely defines which position citizens of other nationalities can
4 occupy. Perhaps, even here, we should proceed in this manner and appoint
5 only the proposed Serb judges, while the Croat and Muslim candidates
6 would be appointed only if the constitution which we are definitely going
7 to change ensures such rights for them."
8 And then Mr. Bijelic spoke?
9 MS. KORNER: And then can we go over the page in the English,
10 please, to the next speaker. Mr. Brdjanin. I need the next page,
11 please, in B/C/S.
12 Q. He says about halfway -- well, Therefore let's not take this off
13 the agenda but remove five or six of the proposed people. I am
14 submitting yesterday's proposal for revision to the high court in
15 Banja Luka because neither Mr. Kupresanin or Mr. Vukic are behind these
16 proposals; I talked to them this morning. Therefore, let us appoint only
17 those judges who are of Serbian nationality. We cannot say this to
20 Now, you heard that, Mr. Mandic. What view did you take of what
21 Mr. Brdjanin was saying?
22 A. Well, I explained it a moment ago. I can try again.
23 There were certainly some MPs, including Milojevic, Prstojevic,
24 and Brdjanin, who wanted a mono-ethnic state and mono-ethnic selection of
25 prosecutors and judges and other staff in the judiciary. I did not agree
1 with it, and Dr. Karadzic did not agree with it. And despite everything,
2 we elected into the municipal prosecutor's office and the municipal court
3 judges of all ethnic communities, despite the views of these MPs who put
4 forward their personal opinions. And that was true in other
5 municipalities too.
6 And at least while I was minister --
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
8 A. -- I managed to ensure that proportionate representation is
9 observed in the prosecutor's offices and the judiciary. But, of course,
10 there were opposing views as well, but all these people were subsequently
11 eventually appointed.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let's have a look, please,
13 at these appointments, shall we?
14 If we go -- Mr. Popovic supports the no Serbs to be appointed.
15 If we then look at the chairman, he goes through the list.
16 MS. KORNER: Can we look, please, at the next page in English and
17 the -- page 13 in B/C/S.
18 Q. Appointed is Vesna Radeta-Antonic, a Serb. Mr. Babic -- if we go
19 over the page in English. Ruza Blagojevic, a Croat, who is in favour --
20 no, not appointed.
21 Ms. Bursac, a Serb.
22 And then a Montenegrin, Mr. Cvijanovic.
23 And then we come down to number 8, Dusanka Fazlic, a Serb,
24 daughter of Avdo - which causes some hilarity, apparently - not
25 appointed. On the basis, Mr. Mandic, is this right, that from her name
1 she wasn't a Serb?
2 A. It has nothing to do with it. People can decide what ethnic
3 group they belong to, regardless of their name. But I can tell you that
4 all these people were eventually appointed, although they didn't pass at
5 this Assembly meeting, at my insistence and the insistence of
6 Mr. Karadzic, and they ended up occupying those posts. At this time, the
7 nationalist fraction got the upper hand, and these people were not
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's the point. To save
10 me a long and rather tedious exercise, Mr. Mandic, not one single
11 candidate for this position who was not a Serb or a Montenegrin was
12 elected in this Assembly, were they?
13 A. Correct. At this Assembly meeting. But later, they were
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Ms. Korner,
16 page 16, in all fairness to the witness, page 16, under number 13 and
17 number 14, both are Croats and have been appointed on this Assembly.
18 Thank you very much.
19 MS. KORNER: I -- you're absolutely right, and I'm open to
20 correction if there's anybody else. I missed those two.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, on the next page, 25, the Muslim woman, 26,
22 Muslim woman, one Yugoslav, one Italian.
23 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry just a moment. Yes.
24 Sorry, number -- sorry, 25, a Muslim, not elected. 26, a Muslim, not
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that.
2 MS. KORNER: That's why I say I'm open to -- I agree -- it's a
3 long and tedious exercise.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I raise the issue with
5 number 13 and number 14 who have been -- number 13 has been elected.
6 He's a Croat.
7 MS. KORNER: Yes, I accept that. So out of -- I take that
8 entirely. And, as I say, I'm open to correction.
9 Q. So out of that long list that we saw and we went through, one
10 Croat, Zoran Lipovac, a Croat, was elected.
11 MS. KORNER: Can we move, then, please, to the -- just one thing,
12 yes. Can we look at page 23 in English, and -- and in B/C/S, to page 22.
13 Q. Somebody called Slobodanka Hrvacanin. Do you know who she was?
14 A. I think she was an MP in the Assembly of the Serbian people.
15 Q. She is taking here objection to, in fact, a Serb, Mr. Krkeljas
16 who -- see says: This Serb has more inflicted more evil on us Zenica
17 Serbs than any Muslim who lives there. Although I'm an Orthodox Serb, as
18 Brdjanin said, I'd rather vote for every single Muslim for Mr. Krkeljas.
19 He's openly distanced himself from Serbs and SDS of which he was never a
20 member. He's argued with us in the newspapers and caused us immense
22 So she took objection to that on the basis that he was a Serb who
23 wasn't supporting the SDS
24 Now can we look, please, at the prosecutors which is on the next
25 page. Deputy prosecutors, I'm afraid.
1 And there we see Mr. Kapetanovic, the gentleman who was at the
2 end of the list that we looked at earlier, who is in favour, none, I
3 declare, he's not been appointed --
4 MS. KORNER: It's number 11, sorry. You need to go to the next
5 page in B/C/S; I'm sorry.
6 Q. Then the judges of the higher court, which is on the next page in
7 English but the same page in B/C/S. Mr. Bajagic, a Montenegrin, doesn't
8 pass. Mr. Dukic, a Croat, does not pass.
9 And then we come to Mr. --
10 MS. KORNER: High court judges, please, at page 27 in English and
11 page 27 in B/C/S.
12 Q. The only one who causes discussion is Mr. Vukotic, a Montenegrin,
13 and he doesn't pass.
14 All right. Now, Mr. Mandic, you were there at this Assembly, and
15 as you've said it was clear that the deputies weren't going to elect,
16 were they, non-Serbs to these positions, one, with the exception that has
17 been pointed out by Mr. Zecevic.
18 A. As you have seen, the Ministry of Justice issued instructions as
19 to how to appoint officials of the prosecution and the judiciary, and
20 this Mr. Radic in Banja Luka honoured this, that the MPs didn't. I
21 cannot comment on the decisions of the parliament and the MPs. Of
22 course, they were not right. But I have expressed my view through these
23 documents how people should be chosen into the judiciary and the
24 prosecutor's office, but the parliament is the highest authority in the
25 state. But I'm telling you again these people were eventually appointed
1 with the approval of Mr. Karadzic and at my insistence. They worked as
2 long as they worked. I don't know if they remained in Banja Luka until
3 the end of the war, because I left very soon afterwards. And, of course,
4 there were people among the MPs who believed that only Serbs should
5 occupy positions in the Serb state. It's a well-known fact, people like
6 this, Prstojevic, Brdjanin, I don't know who else.
7 Q. All right. Can I just then move on, please, to ask you about
8 something that Mr. Grahovac said, which is page 52 in English and it
9 is ... page 50 in B/C/S, to begin with, anyhow, the part I want.
10 Mr. Grahovac, did you know him? He was obviously -- he was a
11 deputy, but did you know him as someone who came from Banja Luka?
12 A. No, I did not know him.
13 Q. All right. He talks about Mr. Brdjanin, and then he talks about
14 the minister of the interior.
15 MS. KORNER: Can we look, please, at the next page in English and
16 the next page in B/C/S. All right.
17 Q. All right. Now, he is in the middle of a rant about
18 Mr. Brdjanin, saying that he spreads his own people in leading positions,
19 his own cadres, in that way he would have absolute power.
20 And then he says:
21 "I understand this is perhaps a concession regarding the quashing
22 of this autonomism and so on. If that's the solution, then there is no
23 problem, since I'm always ready to prevent certain concrete information
24 on what had happened in our MUP. I don't want to say that Mr. Brdjanin
25 actively took part in that, but it is certain that did he cover things up
1 to some extent, those dirty dealings with our chief Stojan Zupljanin. I
2 said that I will say these things at the Assembly session since it is my
3 Assembly. I am a deputy in it. I know that the department of
4 Mr. Zupljanin stolen [sic] cars from Banja were registered."
5 And he talks about the Suzuki and so on.
6 Former cadres took part in that. Communists, among which is
7 Stojan Zupljanin, they accused me of certain abuses and similar things.
8 Now, were you aware of what he was referring to, as an
9 ex-minister of the MUP?
10 A. I was never a minister of the interior. I don't know. I don't
11 know how you expect me to comment on the statements and contributions by
12 individual members of the Assembly and what this was all about. This was
13 18 years ago. Now, these squabbles between MPs from Krajina, I was not
14 au courant and I cannot comment. I really have no idea. I don't even
15 know who this man is, what's his name.
16 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mandic, I don't want to go through it because you were
17 asked about it, but you knew about and got involved in the whole sorry
18 saga of the business of the Volkswagen Golfs from TAS, didn't you?
19 A. That's not true.
20 Q. I'm sorry -- I'm not suggesting -- there was -- I don't want to
21 go through it because it is not the purpose, Mr. Mandic, but there was a
22 massive argument, wasn't there, in 1995 -- at the 50th Assembly about the
23 Golfs, and indeed you were there, and about some article, some interview
24 had you given to a Belgrade
25 A. I really don't know, believe me, what the press was writing. As
1 far for the Volkswagen Golfs, I believe the Assembly received a report
2 about that, and the minister, Mico Stanisic, informed the Assembly in
3 detail, the report was accepted, and I personal had nothing to do with
4 any vehicles or Golfs or whatever. I was minister of justice until 1992
5 and then I left to live in Belgrade
6 Now, what the press was writing about, this political turmoil and
7 the political squabbles among politicians, I know nothing about that and
8 I cannot say anything about that.
9 Q. Mr. Mandic, as I say, I don't want to spend too much time on
10 this. Allegations were made and cross-allegations that you and other
11 politicians had benefitted, wasn't it, from this -- the thefts and --
12 from the Golfs, of the Golfs from the factory?
13 A. Madam Prosecutor, not a single Golf was stolen from
14 Pretis Vogosca.
15 Q. All right. I think that's all that I need ask you about ...
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Yes, can I just ask you -- I'm sorry, there's one other thing I
19 want to ask you about.
20 MS. KORNER: Mr. Simic, at page 74. And then you again. And
21 it's page 71 in the B/C/S.
22 Q. Who was Mr. Simic?
23 A. I think he was the vice-president of the Assembly, Branko Simic.
24 He was originally from Mostar in Herzegovina.
25 Q. He says --
1 A. And, of course, he was an MP.
2 Q. "I am of the opinion that today's session of the Serbian Assembly
3 was abused and used for giving lectures to Serbian deputies. I
4 responsibly claim from this stand you do not know Serbian soldiers, that
5 you only assume. If five Muslim judges in Banja Luka would prevent a
6 foreign intervention, dear colleagues, Serbian deputies, I propose, then,
7 we leave the Serbian justice system to the Muslims. Another thing, dear
8 friend, you do not have the bad experience which I and my colleagues have
9 had. They slaughtered our children, raped our sisters, raped young
10 Serbian girls. To have a preliminary judge try a Serbian soldier in war
11 time, that is impossible. They will turn the Serbian People and the
12 Serbian soldiers against us.
13 Now, Mr. Mandic, you heard that because we'll see you spoke a
14 moment later. In your view, if he was the Deputy Speaker, or whatever,
15 of the Assembly - I seem to have lost the LiveNote - was this a proper
16 speech to be making?
17 A. It is not up to me to assess the speeches delivered by individual
18 MPs and to interfere in the Assembly debates. Everybody in that war had
19 their own personal wounds and traumas, people lost their families. It
20 was inappropriate for me to speak against such people. If somebody had
21 lost a child or had somebody killed in the war, and it was not up to me
22 to say a Muslim cannot be a judge in such proceedings. That wouldn't be
23 appropriate. That would have been very ugly.
24 I was of the opinion that people who were professional and expert
25 in their job, regardless of their nationality, should remain there. You
1 can see that from the Official Gazette, and you can see there the
2 composition of the courts and the prosecutor's offices, et cetera.
3 Wherever it was possible for me to push through my intentions and my
4 ideas, I did that. However, if the Assembly failed to vote in favour of
5 my proposal and the proposal of the municipality involved, then it was up
6 to them.
7 Q. Well, all right. That's all I want to ask you about the
9 MS. KORNER: Can we move very quickly, please, to document 1395
10 at tab 78, please.
11 Q. This is a ruling from the Vogosca municipal secretariat,
12 apparently, adopting that the house of Almas Planja and Miralem Planja is
13 being allocated for use to the Ministry of Justice for the needs of the
14 prison department of Vogosca Serb municipality, temporary character. And
15 this is pursuant to a request by the Ministry of Justice,
16 Butmir Prison Department of The Vogosca Serb municipality?
17 Was this something that you were aware of, Mr. Mandic?
18 A. Well, in the area of Vogosca, Ilijas and Hadzici municipalities,
19 the court number 2 was set up. And for the needs of that court, we
20 wanted to have investigation or, rather, detention premises to serve the
21 court. The municipality of Vogosca
22 military prison that had been there since the beginning of the war. When
23 the international community forces took over the airport, the Serbian
24 territory was cut off. And to reach these municipalities, one has to
25 take an 80-kilometre roundabout way. We had to make sure that courts
1 functioned in that area and for that purpose we set up one court for
2 these three municipalities and we asked for detention or prison premises
3 to be provided for that court, and I knew about that.
4 Q. All right. This was clearly, wasn't it, a house that belonged to
5 some Muslims?
6 A. It was a man who was living in Germany at the time, and his house
7 was converted into a military prison in April 1992.
8 Q. Did you ever get any complaints about the treatment of people who
9 were being kept there?
10 A. As far as the jurisdiction of the Municipal Court II, which was
11 in charge of individual cases, I've never heard any such complaints.
12 Actually, during my term of office, I think that only one or two people
13 were remanded in that prison during investigation. It was a woman and a
14 young man. And that was done within the jurisdiction of the judges of
15 regular courts.
16 Q. Yes.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,
19 JUDGE HALL
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1327, Your Honours.
21 MS. KORNER:
22 Q. Could you have a look, please, now at document 1987.
23 This is a document -- is that signed by you, Mr. Mandic.
24 A. No, I didn't sign it.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
1 A. I am familiar with this document.
2 Q. All right. So somebody signed -- I think it says -- does it say
3 "za" and then a signature?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. All right. And then it's dated 5th of August and it says that
6 you sent a letter, well, Ministry of Justice, I should say, to the
7 Presidency proposing that the regular courts and public prosecutor's
8 offices temporarily take over the competence of military courts et
9 cetera. And you -- the Presidency hasn't informed the ministry about
10 it's opinion as regards this proposal.
11 So that's what you have been referring to all along, that you
12 made this proposal, that the civilian and military courts be, as it were,
13 joined for a period?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,
17 JUDGE HALL
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1328, Your Honours.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Now, can you look, please, at a document that has already been
21 exhibited but I want to ask you about it, P191.
22 This is a document from Dr. Karadzic which is addressed to --
23 well, it says:
24 "The Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Justice are
25 given the task of obtaining, via municipal organs of the interior and
1 administrations of houses of correction on the territory of the Serbian
2 republic ... official written reports on the treatment and behaviour by
3 Serbian authorities of prisoners of war and the living conditions ...
4 held in prisons in municipalities where such cases exist."
5 Was it the television report on Omarska and places that had
6 prompted this, Mr. Mandic; do you know?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. All right.
9 MS. KORNER: Can we, then, look, please, at document 2650,
10 tab 86.
11 Q. This is Mr. Poplasen again. And it's addressed to the
12 Ministry of Justice, asking for approval for occasional use of detainees
13 for construction and other work according to the current needs.
15 "We ask for an urgent follow-up of this conclusion."
16 Did you get this document?
17 A. No. And this was not signed by Nikola Poplasen. The
18 Ministry of Justice was not competent to send someone to perform work.
19 It was solely the military commander, pursuant to minister's order, to
20 assign someone to carry out works. So this was an erroneously addressed
22 Q. Well, you see, I mean, I know you keep saying this, Mr. Mandic,
23 but the Vogosca prison was a prison under civilian authority, not
24 military, wasn't it?
25 A. That's not true. It -- it was a military prison in Vogosca,
1 which was run by Brano Vlaco, appointed by the military authorities; and
2 the commander of Vogosca Brigade, Trifunovic was the commander.
3 Q. But we've just seen a document you accept you did get where the
4 Planja's House is to be turned into a part of the Vogosca prison system.
5 So it wasn't all military, was it?
6 A. Part of it was under the jurisdiction of the Municipal Court II,
7 headquartered in Vogosca but only for the needs and purposes of that
8 court. So one section of the prison. Just like in Scheveningen, you
9 have you one section which is for The Hague Tribunal and the other
10 section is used by the Dutch judiciary. It was just a building that was
11 divided into two sections, but there was no intertwining of
13 Q. I mean, leaving aside whether this was actually signed by
14 Mr. Poplasen. It was obviously signed on his behalf; as we can see,
16 If there was no jurisdiction to grant permission for prisoners to
17 work, why was this letter being addressed to the Ministry of Justice?
18 A. Out of ignorance.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: It has been corrected because your question was a
20 part of the answer.
21 MS. KORNER:
22 Q. But Mr. Poplasen you knew, and he had been certainly working on
23 prisons and the like for months. How could he -- you perhaps can't
24 answer that, but is there anything about Mr. Poplasen that led you to
25 believe he was ignorant enough to ask permission from the
1 Ministry of Justice for permission that they could not grant?
2 A. Madam Prosecutor, Nikola Poplasen was not working at prison. He
3 was a commissioner of the Presidency for Vogosca municipality. I can't
4 believe that he didn't know that it was only up to the army to -- to
5 determine whether non-Serbs would go to perform construction and other
6 works. That was a well-known ordinary, and every commander in every
7 municipality and every prison had this order and were aware of it. There
8 are documents supporting that. There are documents indicating that
9 nobody else except the military commander was authorised to send
10 non-Serbs to perform labour. This was an order published in the
11 Official Gazette 6/92, signed by Bogdan Subotic, pursuant to the
12 authorisation of President Karadzic.
13 Q. All right.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. But I don't know -- Mr. Mandic
16 says he never received this document. It -- it's there for all to see.
17 I obviously would like to have it exhibited. But if you feel that I have
18 not laid sufficient groundwork, then I would ask for it to be MFI'd.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may, on the subject, Your Honours, very
20 briefly. We object to this because the witness said that this is not the
21 signature of Nikola Poplasen, so I -- I believe in this case, again, we
22 have the situation where the -- the document does not reach the threshold
23 to be even MFI
24 Thank you.
25 MS. KORNER: No, but it clear says "za" on this document.
1 Your Honours, as I say --
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I agree with that.
3 MS. KORNER: As I say, I mean, it's -- I don't think there is
4 another witness that we can deal with it. But if Your Honours feel that
5 it will have to be dealt with --
6 JUDGE HALL
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1329, marked for identification,
8 Your Honours.
9 MS. KORNER: I thought Your Honour said you want to break.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 [The witness stands down]
12 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. Mr. Mandic --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. I'd like you to look at document 1324, please.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MS. KORNER:
22 Q. This is a decision by Dr. Karadzic dated 6th of August, 1992,
23 that says that the Ministry of Interior and Ministry of Justice are
24 obliged to obtain official written information in a coordinated manner on
25 the treatment of prisoners of war by the Serb authorities and on the
1 conditions in prisons in those municipalities where such cases exist.
2 They're to do this through the municipal bodies of Internal Affairs and
3 administrations of penal/correctional facilities respectively.
4 Now, first thing, Mr. Mandic, do you remember getting an order
5 that a report should be produced or official written information?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And given what you've been asserting all the way through, that
8 everything to do with virtually 95 per cent of prisoners was to do with
9 military, why was it that the Ministry of Interior and the
10 Ministry of Justice were being ordered to obtain official information
11 rather than the army?
12 A. Because, through intelligence, the police would compile reports
13 and present a realistic and objective picture of the situation in the
14 municipal prisons to the president of the country. It was not the army
15 who should do that. It was up to the police.
16 As far as the minister of judiciary was concerned in penal and
17 correctional facilities, non-Serbs were held that had been captured by
18 the army. They were decided, their fate was decided by the army;
19 however, while they were in prison, it was the ministry of judiciary that
20 took care of them.
21 It sounds a bit complicated. It probably requires some
23 For example, in Sarajevo
24 facility Butmir, there are persons incarcerated by the cantonal court,
25 the Sarajevo
1 irrespective of whether they are being investigated or serving the
2 sentence. So they were incarcerated by those institutions that tried
3 them. But they are all centralised, they are kept on the same location,
4 and they were guarded by the police of Republika Srpska, but the BH
5 ministry, relevant ministry, was responsible for them. However, if there
6 is an ongoing investigation, it's the BH court or the competent court of
7 Republika Srpska or the Federation is in charge.
8 This is why the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina is somewhat
9 complex and complicated.
10 Q. Yes, well, let's not concern ourselves about what's happening in
11 modern day Sarajevo
12 asked you of is on the treatment of prisoners of war, not civilians
13 or -- or criminals, but prisoners of war, which, as you know, Mr. Mandic,
14 as a lawyer, has a legally defined definition.
15 A. I have to repeat, concerning POWs or the civilians, it was the
16 army who was responsible to decide their fate, whether they would be kept
17 or released.
18 However, as for the situation within the prisons, it was the
19 Ministry of Justice that was responsible for them why they are being
20 incarcerated. If the army took them out to perform labour or transfer
21 them to a different location, it was their responsibility, the army's
23 Q. All right.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may this be marked and admitted,
1 JUDGE HALL
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1329, Your Honours.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. All right. In light of that answer that you have just given us,
5 Mr. Mandic, can I just ask you to look at another document. It's
6 actually 10318 at tab 91. It's not on our 65 ter list, but I think I
7 better ask you about it.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Yes, I crossed it through
10 because ... I don't know whether we can get it up. No, I'm sorry,
11 Your Honour. What happened was that I went through removing it, because
12 I didn't think it was relevant either. But it was on the original list.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Apologies to the counsel while we are waiting.
14 The last exhibit number is P1330.
15 MS. KORNER: Okay, well, I gather I can't do that.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. KORNER: I'm in Your Honours' hands. It was originally on
18 our list, but it wasn't on our 65 ter, so we removed it. But it's
19 directly on point. Well, all right. Listen, I'll move on, Your Honours,
20 I can come back to it, if necessary.
21 Can we look, then, please, next at -- yes, tab 100.
22 Sorry - tab 100 - 1214, please.
23 Q. Now, again, this is the -- a government session held in
24 September. You were there, Mr. Mandic. It was held on the
25 10th of September.
1 MS. KORNER: And if we go, please, to the fifth page. And it's
2 Agenda item 20. Fifth page in English and sixth page in B/C/S.
3 Q. Now, a delegation was being formed comprising, Mr. Djeric,
4 Mr. Trbojevic, Mr. Pejic, yourself, Mico Stanisic, Mr. Subotic,
5 Colonel Subotic, and somebody called Petra Markovic who are to attend the
6 meeting, Bijelina, on the 12th of September this year, scheduled by
7 representatives from the Krajina and Posavina areas. This was, as we
8 will see, a few days before an Assembly meeting took place in Bijeljina.
9 What was to be discussed at this meeting that involved such a
10 high-level delegation?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. All right. Because you did attend --
13 A. Is there perhaps a conclusion somewhere in the minutes, to
14 refresh my memory? I can't remember otherwise.
15 Q. All right. I think we'll see it is referred to in the Assembly
16 that took place. Let's move straight to that, please, then.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't think I have this one. I
18 don't think this document has been admitted yet. Has it? I'll just
19 check. No, it hasn't.
20 Can this be admitted and marked, please.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1331, Your Honours.
23 MS. KORNER: Now let's go to -- immediately to the Assembly
24 session on the 14th and 5th of September, which is P430.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, can we have a tab number, please. I'm
2 MS. KORNER: Tab -- I'm sorry, 98.
3 Q. Mr. Mandic, we'll see in a moment you were there again because
4 the question of the judges was raised, or at least two of them.
5 MS. KORNER: If we go, please, to page 8 in English, and to
6 page 7 in the B/C/S.
7 No, you've gone on page 5 in B/C/S. 7, please. Two pages on.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Mandic, you there, didn't you, proposed that the two
10 Montenegrin judges, not the others, but the two Montenegrins, should be
11 placed on -- their election should be placed on the agenda.
12 Is that right?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And then if we move on to -- just a moment. Let me get the right
16 Yes. There's a long discussion. You speak again, but let's just
17 have a look at what happens so we don't waste time. Hmm, that's all
19 MS. KORNER: I think if we go to page 115 in the English. And to
20 100 -- and to 37 in B/C/S. No, sorry, there's two pages. All right. I
21 have forgotten, it splits in the middle of this.
22 The number at the top is 0422-6316. Thank you.
23 I'm not sure who -- I think, yes, Dr. Milanovic, I think, is
24 speaking. I'm not sure who is.
25 "I just want to say I'm not an extremist or anything, but
1 Mr. Kupresanin is right. We are being deceived.
2 "This man cannot be the deputy public prosecutor
3 [indiscernible] -- soldiers and our heroes because he might try them as
4 war criminals in future.
5 Number 5 on the list cannot pass; Ibrahim Alagic, son of Adem.
6 He must have taken part in the prosecution of Serbs ten years ago.
7 And then you, Mr. Mandic, explain the procedure.
8 MS. KORNER: And then, if we go on, please, to page 117 in
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters would
11 kindly ask Mrs. Prosecutor to indicate which paragraph she is reading
12 from. Thank you very much.
13 MS. KORNER: Sorry. I do my best. It's quite difficult to --
15 Q. Mr. Djuric -- and I'm afraid that I'm not sure whether it should
16 be -- yeah.
17 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I'm sorry because I've made -- I
18 think I have rather made a mess of this.
19 Q. But, Mr. Mandic, at this meeting, do you remember Mr. Djuric
20 saying again:
21 "In respect of these appointments, if our representatives need to
22 show Europe
23 election of judges and prosecutors?
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm afraid I can't find the part in
25 B/C/S, but --
1 Q. So I'm just going to ask you if you recall that.
2 A. I think I suggested that it be included in the agenda again to
3 elect prosecutors and judges of different ethnicities. And again MPs
4 contested it; some MPs contested it, including Djuric. That was a
5 problem in the parliament. That's what we discussed some time ago.
6 Nothing new.
7 Q. I think we'll have to leave that because, as I say, it's rather
8 too lengthy.
9 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we please now move to number 99 --
10 sorry, 65 ter 2000.
11 Q. Now, this is a bulletin. Again, we're back to Vogosca. And
12 apparently two prisoner, Muslims it would appear, on the
13 24th of September, 1992, were hit because they were carrying out works.
14 As the minister of justice, would you expect to be informed if
15 prisoners were killed whilst they were being made to work?
16 A. Well, you see, Madam Prosecutor, that it's a section of the
17 prison in the Serbian Municipality
18 reference to the Ministry of Justice. It has nothing to do with the
19 prison which was within the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice. And
20 I was precisely saying that we, in the government, established a
21 commission to disband these municipal prisons. This says
22 Serbian Republic
23 Vogosca, Prison Department. It doesn't say penal correctional facility.
24 This is exactly the kind of prison that we abolished because they were
25 irregular and illegal and they were under the authority of the army,
1 because they were established by the army and the Crisis Staffs. It's
2 the same thing I was talking about before.
3 Q. Yes, but the document that exactly we saw saying that all these,
4 as it were, rough and ready prisons should be abolished and brought
5 within the penal/correction system was some four months, if not longer,
6 before this. Had any further steps been taken to deal with these
8 A. Of course. For instance, in Vogosca, Hadzici, and Ilijas, there
9 were at least five or six of those centres detaining non-Serbs, before
10 this date, and this was run by the army. And that's the military prison
11 in Vogosca -- or, rather, Planja's House as it was called, within which
12 there was a section for the court in Sarajevo.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: If I can clarify the answer, 67, line 24. I
14 believe the witness said that these five or six centres were closed
15 before this date.
16 MS. KORNER: Well, that's completely different. That's not the
17 interpretation we heard.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: That is why I want -- that is what I heard the
19 witness said, and I would like you to -- to explore that.
20 MS. KORNER: Well, rather than telling him ...
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm really sorry because I don't have my
22 earphones on. I'm listening to the witness. And that is what I heard.
23 And everybody can confirm that who speaks Serbian in the audience.
24 MS. KORNER:
25 Q. Well, you heard all that, Mr. Mandic, no doubt. Is that what you
1 said, that they were closed?
2 A. Yes. I remember that in the meantime the prison called
3 Punkir [phoen] was closed down and then the Sonja, Trvan [phoen], and
4 some others run by the municipal authorities in Vogosca.
5 Q. Yes, but clearly some were still operating, as you say, including
6 Planja's House, which you knew about.
7 A. No, no. Planja's House was a military prison run by the army.
8 And within that prison there was a section that was within the
9 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice. In fact, the remand prison of
10 the court.
11 Q. This one, however, you say, or this, relates entirely to an
12 illegal type of detention facility, as I understand what you're saying.
13 A. Well, as for this prison section, if people were kept there
14 without any charges and any proceedings against them, of course, that was
16 Q. And if you knew these prisons were carrying on and you say they
17 were all to do with the army, did you, at any stage, in your position as
18 minister, complain to Dr. Karadzic or complain to General Mladic or
19 anyone that there were these prisons being run by the military in which
20 civilians were being detained, in which people were being killed?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And to whom did you complain?
23 A. Before this last break, we looked at one letter that I sent for
24 the second time to Mr. Karadzic in which I asked that the military
25 prosecution and the judiciary be integrated with the civilian prosecution
1 and judiciary to prevent further illegal detention of such people in
2 those prisons. We in the Ministry of Justice had no jurisdiction over
3 these detained non-Serbs. And that's why I resigned in November, I think
4 just before the session of the -- the Assembly held in Bijeljina.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In February.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the military prosecution
7 and judiciary were so busy and we had no power over anything and nothing
8 to do, because the state of immediate threat of war had been proclaimed.
9 We were looking at that letter I wrote just recently, a letter I
10 sent to Dr. Karadzic.
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Mandic, but you don't in
13 that letter - and we can go back to it if you like - I don't in that
14 letter say "because there are people being illegally detained and being
15 killed." You say that the courts aren't operating properly. And we can
16 go back to it if we need to.
17 A. Well, one consequence of that is the failure of the military
18 prosecution to operate. Because if they were working properly, people
19 would not have been illegally detained in prisons. It needed a systemic
20 solution to ensure that all the work is lawful. The problem was a
21 systemic one; it was not about individual cases. I raised that issue at
22 several Assembly sessions in Zvornik, for instance, in September. There
23 was a discussion between me and General Gvero about the operation of the
24 military judiciary.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Ms. Korner. 70, 13, it's recorded
1 September, and I believe the witness said the Assembly in Zvornik and the
2 different -- a different month.
3 MS. KORNER: I think it was corrected to say February.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, no, no. It says, page 70, line 13, I
5 raised the issue --
6 MS. KORNER: Yeah, sorry. I've got it.
7 Q. Okay. What date do you say that was?
8 A. That was November 1992 in Zvornik, and September in Bijeljina.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honours, I think the best I can do with
11 this is ask for this document to be marked for identification at the
12 moment. Document 2000.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 Prosecution going with this, Ms. Korner?
15 MS. KORNER: Well, I rather think that -- you mean can I find
16 another witness to do deal with it? I don't know. But I rather think
17 it's quite important that two prisoners, Muslims, are sent off to do work
18 as a result of which they're killed. And Vogosca is one of the
19 indictment -- one of the municipalities in our indictment.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 being marked or even admitted?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: We do not object to be marked for identification.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 So marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1332, marked for identification,
1 Your Honours.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I just ask, somewhat
3 impertinently, but is Your Honours' hesitation on the basis you don't see
4 the relevance?
5 JUDGE HALL
6 regard to your explanation, whether the document -- when it can be
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, well, I would like it admitted, but I didn't
9 think I could because Mr. Mandic says he doesn't know anything about it.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 MS. KORNER: So that's the problem.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 being marked.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Slightly concerned, that's all.
15 Right, yes. I don't think I can deal with that one.
16 Q. Yes, could I ask you to look, please, at document 1738, please.
17 Very quickly, Mr. Mandic, this is headed an overview of courts
18 and judges in the prosecutor's office. Is this, as far as you're
19 concerned, an accurate document?
20 A. I think it is.
21 Q. All right. I don't think we need to go further, particularly
22 given the time.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,
25 JUDGE HALL
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1333, Your Honours.
2 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
3 Q. Right. Now, can we look, please, next at document 259.
4 This document, dated the 22nd of October, 1992, addressed to
5 General Mladic, Mr. Stanisic, and yourself, from Mr. Karadzic. And it --
6 he is saying that local police, military, and civilian authorities are
7 completely disregarding his authorisation that the ICRC should be allowed
8 to visit prisons and that you were to worn your subordinated officers.
9 Were you aware that the ICRC was being refused admittance to
10 prisons under the control of the Ministry of Justice?
11 A. The international representatives were never, ever prevented from
12 going into prisons controlled by the Ministry of Justice.
13 Q. Well, when you got this letter, did you approach Dr. Karadzic and
14 say, We've never prevented the ICRC from going in?
15 A. Dr. Karadzic wrote here that police and civilian authorities were
16 concerned, municipal authorities. However, I forwarded these letters
17 to -- to the penal/correctional facilities, repeating instructions that
18 they should keep to the rules of the service. There was no problem in
19 these prisons in admitting the ICRC.
20 Q. Well, you didn't answer -- I'm sorry. The question I asked,
21 Mr. Mandic, was did you say to Dr. Karadzic, As far as the Ministry of
22 Justice is concerned and the penal facilities that come under its
23 jurisdiction, there is no problem?
24 A. I don't remember whether I informed him or not. But I certainly
25 now that there was no problem there.
1 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we simply have it marked and
2 admitted, please. Admitted and marked.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1334, Your Honours.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Did you ever discuss with Mico Stanisic what his police were
7 doing in respect of prisoners, while we're on that topic?
8 A. I don't think the police held any prisoners at this time or that
9 they ran prisons. There were only prisons run by the Ministry of Justice
10 and prisons controlled by the military prosecutor's office or, rather,
11 the army. I don't think that the police ran any prisons. At least I'm
12 not aware of that --
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 A. -- for this period.
15 Q. All right. Let's have a look at the letter that you wrote at
16 this period, please, which is document, please, 381. Or that went out
17 under your signature, under your stamp.
18 Letter from you addressed to the Serbian municipalities of
19 Hadzici and Ilidza, to the president of the -- and the chief of the
20 public security station personally. The investigation of this ministry
21 showed that on the territory of your respective municipalities, in the
22 facilities of the sport centre in Hadzici, there are 90 detained persons
23 of Muslim ethnicity, and in Ilidza, in the facilities of the high school
24 for graphic education, about 30 persons. And you should transfer the
25 above mentioned to Butmir. And, at the same time, we are informing you
1 our investigation extensive as well as observation by the
2 International Red Cross and United Nation -- regarding the breaches
3 committed regarding the liberation of the persons of Muslim ethnicity.
4 And there's a signature, your name, and a stamp.
5 So, first of all, Mr. Mandic, is that your signature?
6 A. No, this is not my signature or the number of the protocol 04/2.
7 My number was 01.
8 I don't know who this -- it's Slobodan Avlijas actually who did
9 the inspection. He is not from my office. But he made this inquiry and
10 he wrote to Ilidza and Hadzici to correct these irregularities.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: The answer was not recorded as I heard it. Because
12 the witness --
13 MS. KORNER: Let's -- let's before you.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, I just wanted to point out. I'm not saying
15 what I heard. He -- he was pointing out that he knew who -- that he
16 knows the person who signed this document. That was not recorded.
17 MS. KORNER: Oh I see. He said that he did, yes. Sorry, I had
18 that. Sorry that's right.
19 Q. This document was signed by Mr. Avlijas wasn't it whom you did
21 A. Who was an assistant in my ministry. And in the top left corner
22 04/2 that is his department, his administration. And he falsified my
23 signature. Because he is the one who made the inquiry in Hadzici and
24 Ilidza municipalities.
25 Q. Yes. But he came under you as a minister, didn't he? He was
1 responsible to you as the minister.
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. And you just told us not a minute ago that there were no --
4 firstly there was no problem with the ICRC; and, secondly, you were
5 unaware of any detention facilities which were being run by the police.
6 A. I really didn't know at the time that the police ran prisons.
7 The person who inspected and checked this was Slobodan Avlijas. You can
8 call him to appear here as a witness and ask him to explain this. I
9 honestly never, at the time, knew about the police running any prisons.
10 I knew that it was done by the army and the Ministry of Justice.
11 Q. Wasn't Mr. Avlijas who was doing these inspections duty-bound to
12 give you a report about what he had found?
13 A. Well, you see, that he sent this on behalf of the ministry with
14 his protocol number and my signature. My block signature.
15 Q. Well, I don't -- are you saying that he signed this or that he
16 forged your name, your signature?
17 A. He falsified my signature. You say -- see it says M. Mandic. It
18 is though similar to my signature but one can see it's not the same and
19 identical. And he put his number 04/2. My number was 1/2 and then all
20 the other deputies were 3 and 4 and other numbers. Every department had
21 their own protocol number.
22 Q. First of all, wouldn't Mr. Avlijas have been taking a risk first
23 in not telling you about what he had found, and secondly, in forging your
25 A. Believe me, I can't answer this. He's the one who can answer
1 that. But this is definitely a forgery, and this is definitely his
2 protocol number, and it was him who definitely inspected these areas.
3 Q. And can you think of any reason why he wouldn't have told you
4 what he had found?
5 A. I really can't. I saw this letter in the BH court in Sarajevo
6 and it was established there, positively established, that this is not my
8 Q. All right.
9 A. You can contact him. He is an available, and can he be called
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,
13 JUDGE HALL
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1335, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, yes, Your Honours, but you were faster than
17 my objection.
18 Well, I believe that the witness said that -- that -- that his
19 signature was forged. I don't -- I really have a problem if we -- if
20 we --
21 JUDGE HALL
22 it -- it strikes me that the -- a lot of the exchange between Ms. Korner
23 and the witness over the past ten minutes really has to do with the --
24 well, did not -- as I understand the witness's testimony, result in his
25 denying the authenticity of the contents of the document, notwithstanding
1 the irregularities - my word - in the way that it was produced, and
2 the -- his non-acceptance of the purported signature of him
3 notwithstanding the fact that he was a minister on it. So taking all of
4 that into consideration, the document by itself, on its face, I would
5 have thought would be admissible, but I anticipate the -- that the --
6 when the time comes the -- to the extent that this is relevant to the
7 Defence case, there would be arguments about what weight to be attached
8 to this.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand. I'm grateful to Your Honours. Thank
11 JUDGE HALL
12 Ms. Korner, you are within the last eight minutes of you're
13 allotted time.
14 MS. KORNER: Right. In that case, can we move --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just have a minute,
16 Your Honours, just a minute.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This has to do with municipalities
19 and municipal Crisis Staffs that had set up illegal prisons, not the
20 police. So it was the municipalities who, through their Crisis Staffs
21 and Territorial Defence, set up these institutions. So this was not a
22 falsified development, event but there is no information, actually I
23 don't have any information that this refers to the police. This had to
24 do with the municipalities and their Crisis Staffs.
25 That's all I wanted to say.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MS. KORNER: Right.
3 Q. Then very quickly, Mr. Mandic, because you heard my time is
4 running out. Could you have a look, please, at document 0 -- 258 -- oh,
5 sorry, no, P393, MFI
6 This report on prisons and collection camps addressed to the
7 President, or the Presidency, Dr. Karadzic, President of the
8 Republika Srpska, chairman of the Assembly, and prime minister of the
9 Republika Srpska. It has got a signature on it?
10 Is that your signature?
11 A. This is again a forgery done by Slobodan Avlijas. It is his
12 protocol number. However, I am familiar with this report and the report
13 is true. This is just for the sake of the truth that I wanted to say
15 Q. I was going to come on to that. Because there went up to --
16 A. If you look at this it says 04/2, and the signature which is
17 similar to mine but it's not mine. But I am familiar with the contents
18 of this report, and I ordered it to be sent out.
19 Q. Mr. Mandic, I don't want to waste too much time on this, but this
20 is a report that you were ordered to do, which you sent, and -- just a
21 moment let me finish. And on this occasion you know all about this
22 report. You see it. But Mr. Avlijas forges your signature?
23 Is that what you're telling the Court?
24 A. He signed this just for the sake of -- of expeditiousness. But I
25 was familiarised with the content, and I insisted on this report being
1 sent out immediately.
2 Q. Right. And are you sure, the last document about which we've had
3 so much discussion that wasn't signed for him for expeditious --
4 expedition on your behalf?
5 A. This document was sent to two or three municipalities. He
6 ordered on my behalf of these municipal prisons to be shut down, and the
7 report that we saw earlier was incorporated into this comprehensive
8 report which was sent to the President of the Republic, the parliament,
9 Speaker, and the prime minister.
10 Q. Well, just let's briefly just look at a couple of the entries.
11 MS. KORNER: For Prijedor, number 4, page 5. It's page 3 in the
12 B/C/S. No, okay. Sorry -- sorry, page 4, not page 5.
13 Page 4. Thanks.
14 Q. Prijedor, neither a camp nor a prison for prisoners of war
15 officially exists in Prijedor. Former collection centre at Trnopolje was
16 closed down by agreement. This report is 22nd of October. However,
17 because of irresponsible people in Prijedor launched the misinformation
18 amongst the Muslim population that the only way to leave this town for
19 the desired destination is to gather at the Trnopolje centre, and so on
20 and so forth.
21 Where did this information come from?
22 A. The government had set up a commission and the commission was
23 sent out into the field. Some people went to Krajina, some went to
25 is a complication an aggregate report that was drafted and sent out to
1 all the competent institutions in order to inform them about the
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
4 A. About the situation on the ground, I mean.
5 Q. So, I'm sorry, you sent people out to gather information from the
6 various municipalities. Is that what you're saying?
7 A. No it wasn't me. It was the decision taken by the government.
8 Q. But then -- all right. Well let's just move to Sanski Most,
9 number 5. So -- no, stay on the B/C/S and go to -- one further page on
10 in English. Information that there was camp in Sanski Most is not
11 correct. In that area only four people were taken to prisoner and
12 transferred to Manjaca camp during combat activities.
13 Did you realise from your own sources of information as a member
14 of the government during the period of April to July 1992 that that was
15 completely false?
16 A. No, I didn't have any information relating to Sanski Most and
18 Q. All right. That's all that I'm going to ask you about that
19 report. Thank you very much.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,
22 JUDGE HALL
23 THE REGISTRAR: Number will remain Exhibit P393, Your Honours.
24 MS. KORNER: It was MFI
25 Yes, Your Honours, I think, in fact, because the November --
1 it -- in -- well, perhaps can I deal with this --
2 Q. Mr. Mandic, just very quickly. In November, at the Assembly
3 meeting, Mr. Djeric, did he not, Djeric, made various allegations in
4 respect of you and Mr. Stanisic's work; is that right? And both of you
5 responded to it.
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And I think -- perhaps I can just ask you about a couple of
8 things that Mr. Stanisic said.
9 MS. KORNER: Could we have a look, please, then, at P400. And in
10 the English, it's at page 19; and in the B/C/S, it's at page 14. Or it
11 begins at page 14.
12 Q. You see Mr. Stanisic spoke. Mr. Mandic, you'd spoken, first of
13 all, and then Mr. Stanisic spoke.
14 And could we go, please, one page further in English and B/C/S.
15 Mr. Stanisic said that -- thank you very much. Referring to what
16 Mr. Djeric asked for. I emphasise here in front of you that I followed a
17 policy of the Presidency of the Serbian Democratic Party and our deputies
18 in the former state, and I have always been in favour of that policy.
19 Did you take the same line as -- [indiscernible] did you feel the
20 same way as Mr. Stanisic that what had you done was follow the policy of
21 the Presidency of the Serbian Democratic Party?
22 A. Is that a question? I'm sorry.
23 Q. It is, yes. That's what Mr. Stanisic said. And I'm asking if
24 your view, what you had done, the actions had you taken during the period
25 between March and November 1992 was to follow the policy of the
2 A. Can you please explain to me what actions you're referring to?
3 All we did was implement the laws adopted by the Assembly. I
4 don't know which particular actions you had in mind.
5 Q. The actions that you took, in respect of what happened in March,
6 and April, your involvement with the police, your work as minister of
7 justice, and those who were prisoners, was that the actions -- were the
8 actions you took those that were the policy of the
9 Serbian Democratic Party?
10 A. I don't know what the policy of the Serbian Democratic Party was.
11 I wasn't a member of that political party. Throughout the whole of my
12 life and particularly during that period, I always worked and complied
13 with the law. I worked according to my conscience and my belief that I
14 was doing the best I could. I didn't follow anyone's policy. I did not
15 follow any political party, including the Serbian Democratic Party.
16 Q. All right. Can I just ask you then about one other thing that
17 Mr. Stanisic said in respect of the police.
18 MS. KORNER: Could we look at page 21 -- well, the next page in
19 English, and I think it's the next page also in B/C/S. And it's -- if we
20 could highlight the last paragraph in each.
21 Q. Mr. Stanisic said there:
22 "We had to take criminals and crooks because, you know, that no
23 intellectual took the rifle in his hand and went to fight for the
25 You were for at least nearly two months a minister of the MUP,
1 assistant minister. Was that something that you realised, that criminals
2 and crooks had been taken into the police force?
3 A. Never had criminals and crooks been engaged by the service. And
4 he was not referring to the police at all. No one could join the police
5 who had criminal record. But Mr. Stanisic was making a totally different
6 reference. This was taken out of context. And I categorically assert
7 that not a single person with criminal past and a police record was
8 admitted into police, and I can say that before this Honourable Chamber
9 because I know that for a fact. That was never done. For sure.
10 At least while I was in the police, but I also don't think that
11 Mico Stanisic had allowed that either.
12 Q. Sorry, you say I took this out of context --
13 A. This sentence. That was the reason why the joint MUP broke up,
14 because hundreds of Muslim criminals joined them from abroad. That's why
15 we had these meetings in Sarajevo
16 Minister Delimustafic that criminals with criminal records were putting
17 on police uniforms. That caused the disintegration of the police. And
18 that Bihavija [phoen], from the Shiite police, were joining the MUP.
19 That is the truth.
20 Q. I think that -- perhaps we ought to look -- go back a bit.
21 Because the paragraph starts -- well, not starts:
22 I must also warn you this state has been built out of chaos, no
23 law regulations. You all know that the police have built this country
24 from the beginning, along with the people, defending them and providing
25 space for the government to make law regulations, and so on and so forth.
1 I'm always ready to present to you all that we have done during that
2 period. There were no regulations. Intentions were good. But if there
3 were any mistakes, we are ready to discuss them and to answer for them.
4 Therefore, I do not agree that anyone can, say, call someone to be
5 Radovan's man based on that -- and based on that to claim is he no good.
6 We also have to take criminals and crooks, et cetera.
7 So he was talking about the police, wasn't he, Mr. Mandic?
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may just briefly say the
9 following --
10 MS. KORNER: Well, just a moment. If this is going to affect the
11 witness's testimony, then he ought to leave.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, no. It's not going to affect the witness's
13 testimony. I'm just wondering what is the purpose of this exercise?
14 Namely, Your Honours, my client --
15 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm sorry. I'm sorry,
16 I'm -- Your Honour --
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 MS. KORNER: If this is -- this -- this should not be done in
19 front of the witness.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm not going into the specific facts at all. I'm
21 just stating --
22 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... no, I'm sorry --
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... the situation as it.
24 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I object, Your Honour. If there's going
25 to be any statement made about Mr. Stanisic is or was or what's going
1 happen should not happen in front of the witness.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. That's fine with me. Witness can be --
3 JUDGE HALL
4 headphones? He speaks English.
5 Yes, well, it's time for today's adjournment in any event. It
6 seems that this is a matter that we would have to continue tomorrow
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just sa one sentence,
9 Your Honours?
10 Stanisic said here, They took on board crooks and criminals.
11 "They," not "I." He wasn't speaking about himself, about the ministry,
12 or police. He was speaking in general terms. And we shall see who was
13 it who engaged and recruited criminals and crooks when we come to that,
14 who insisted on them being brought into Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were
15 notes, shorthand notes, about that. He said "they," and he was referring
16 to powerful people who were able to bring people from other countries to
17 kill and loot throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 This was not a reference to the police or to the
19 Minister Stanisic.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 note on which to take the adjournment until tomorrow morning.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of
25 May, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.