Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9904

 1                           Tuesday, 11 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances for today, please.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  On behalf of the

13     Prosecution, Alexis Demirdjian, with Joanna Korner, and Case Manager

14     Crispian Smith.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  For

16     Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Cvijetic, Tatjana Savic, Ms. Deirdre Montgomery, and

17     Dominic Kennedy.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

19     Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And if there is nothing to delay us, I

22     would invite Mr. Cvijetic to commence his cross-examination.

23             But before that I remind the witness that you're still on your

24     oath, sir.

25             Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

Page 9905

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Give me a moment, Your Honours.

 3                           WITNESS:  OBREN PETROVIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Petrovic.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   My name is Slobodan Cvijetic, and I am counsel on the

 9     Stanisic Defence team.  I will have a couple of questions for you.

10             I will start where you left off yesterday, which was the

11     procedure for your removal from the post of the chief of police station;

12     is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Yesterday you detailed the reasons behind your removal, and you

15     described for us how this all came about.  What I still find unclear,

16     Mr. Petrovic, is what sort of procedure was actually initiated against

17     you, with a view to removing you from your post?  We have the complete

18     Bench today, so could you please, for their benefit, briefly describe

19     this for us again, loud and clear.  And can you please emphasise the

20     various documents you received leading up to your removal.

21             Have I made myself clear?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can we hear how it was that you came to be removed from your

24     post.

25        A.   I think that it was after the meeting held in October, organised

Page 9906

 1     by Colonel Lisica, that I was removed.  I reviewed the document, though I

 2     don't have it now.  Later on, the letter was sent to the

 3     Security Services Centre, since Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic was at this

 4     meeting too, as were representatives of the municipality and deputies of

 5     the Republika Srpska National Assembly, as far as I understood the

 6     matter.

 7        Q.   What still remains unclear to me is the nature of the document

 8     you seem to be referring to.

 9             In the interviews with ICTY investigators, which were held a

10     while ago, you said in those interviews that these documents exist -- or

11     the document exists and that it can be found.

12        A.   Well, I don't have the document, but an individual showed me this

13     proposal of the CSB addressed to the ministry, detailing the reasons for

14     my removal.  It is a customary practice that if there are reasons for

15     your removal, then the chief of the centre would issue a proposal to the

16     minister for your removal, and this is what was done in my case.

17        Q.   Did you receive the document on your removal from the minister?

18        A.   Yes, I did, a dispatch.

19        Q.   Do you have that dispatch?

20        A.   I do.  I gave it to the investigators.

21        Q.   Do you recall the date the decision bears?

22        A.   It was in early January 1993.

23        Q.   Could that have been the 18th of January, 1993?

24        A.   [No verbal response]

25        Q.   Can you repeat your answer; it is not entered in the transcript.

Page 9907

 1        A.   Yes, that's possible.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, can you assist us, please.  Is this --

 3     how is this going to be of assistance to the Chamber at the end of the

 4     exercise?  Where are we going?

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you haven't

 6     forgotten, the witness stated yesterday that he was removed because he

 7     was assisting the Muslims.  You will recall that as the second reason for

 8     his removal he cited his protection of Muslims.  And I want to show that

 9     this isn't true because both he and the police station he was in charge

10     of did not achieve the results as expected in that period and that was

11     the reason why he was removed, and not because he had allegedly helped

12     Muslims.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Can't you challenge him directly on this?  Wouldn't

14     it be of greater assistance if, that being your case, you move directly

15     to -- to that point?

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness doesn't

17     have a single argument lending support to what he says, and that's why I

18     have taken this road, and this is how I've approached the matter, and, by

19     your leave, I should like to proceed.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, I'm sorry, the point that you're

22     trying to make is -- is clear enough.  I would concur with the

23     Presiding Judge, that you should just get at it straight away.  But the

24     underlying question is really why and just how is it relevant that the

25     witness was dismissed for whatever reason [Microphone not activated].

Page 9908

 1             What -- what kind of assistance will that bring to -- to the

 2     trial against your client?

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot but recall

 5     the transcript of -- of the witness's testimony yesterday.  He spent a

 6     great deal of time explaining that he was removed because he had helped

 7     Muslims.  And you know that the indictment charges the clients with

 8     discriminatory intent in relation to non-Serbs.  And if this is why he

 9     was removed, this is a qualification that could be taken against our

10     clients by Their Honours.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours.

13             If I may be of any assistance, I believe that this is a relevant

14     topic actually to the matters at hand.  Our theory of the case is that

15     this individual was removed in his assistance, as he said, of Muslims and

16     that measures were not taken against other police chiefs who bore more

17     criminal responsibility.

18             So I believe that this might be a relevant one -- examination.

19             JUDGE HALL:  We do appreciate that, Mr. Demirdjian and

20     Mr. Cvijetic.  Our only question is, Why isn't it -- why don't you -- why

21     doesn't counsel move directly to it rather than take this circuitous

22     route?  That's the only question that we have.  We fully understand what

23     the challenge is.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, nothing easier for me,

25     Your Honours, than to say -- to put to the witness that he is lying.  But

Page 9909

 1     I haven't done so in relation to any of the witnesses because my

 2     jurisdiction prohibits me from doing so.  In my jurisdiction, one needs

 3     to present documents to the witness that prove the opposite, and -- and

 4     this is the basis on which the Chamber will examine the matter.

 5             If you prefer me to do so, I can put to the witness that he is

 6     lying and just leave the matter at that.  But will this convince the

 7     Trial Chamber that the witness, indeed, is lying?

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, Mr. Cvijetic; but, if possible,

 9     short -- short-circuit your route.  That's the only thing we're asking.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Witness, according to what you say, the help you provided to the

12     Muslims consisted of the fact that at the start of the war you set up a

13     multi-ethnic unit comprising Muslims as well.

14             Now, you also stated that these Muslims that you included in your

15     unit simply dispersed and fled as attacked by the army and you said that

16     this was taken -- held against you.

17        A.   Well, I didn't say that this was taken against me.  I set up this

18     unit at Sevarlije, but when this paramilitary unit or whoever it was

19     captured Sevarlije, they attacked the policemen and they simply took

20     their uniforms and weapons and crossed to the Federation.

21        Q.   But you said to the investigators that this was the reason why

22     you were removed, that somebody thought of this incident at the end of

23     the year and cited this as the reason.

24        A.   Well, I only said that there was a proposal from the centre for

25     my removal.  Now, if you -- I did say that among the reasons cited, there

Page 9910

 1     was also the reason that I failed to enforce law and order.  But one of

 2     these bullet points also included the fact that I mentioned.  If you --

 3     perhaps the best method would be to speak to the former chief of the

 4     centre.  You see, I think a year ago I saw this man who showed me the

 5     very document that was sent to the minister.

 6        Q.   I put it to you that this document does not mention Muslims or

 7     any sort of assistance you may have provided them at all; rather what is

 8     mentioned is only the -- your failure to achieve any of the tasks that

 9     were presented to the police station.  What -- what you state to

10     substantiate your claims is merely the fact that you set up this

11     multi-ethnic unit in Sevarlije which dispersed when exposed to an attack

12     from the army and crossed to the side of the Federation.  Or is it,

13     perhaps -- so can you please tell us, Is it because what you did in

14     April that you were removed at the end of that same year?  Was it

15     somebody thought back about those events?

16        A.   Well, you see, by that time, the police force had not yet been

17     fully formed --

18        Q.   Can you just answer my question.  Was this the reason you think

19     why you were removed?

20        A.   If you can't signed the document in the Ministry of Interior, I

21     will locate the document which is entitled proposal for my removal.

22        Q.   Very well.  You haven't managed to persuade me of what you say,

23     but I will try to give you my view of the matter.

24             Do you know that the minister of the interior issued rules

25     governing disciplinary responsibility of the MUP staff of the

Page 9911

 1     Serbian Republic of --

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated]

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, you're referring to events in

 5     April.  What are you -- what events are you referring to?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm quoting the

 7     words of the witness who says that earlier on in the war he established a

 8     multi-ethnic unit comprising Muslims and that at Sevarlije, as has just

 9     been said, when they came under attack of another unit, he mentioned it,

10     the Muslims crossed over to the other side with their weapons and

11     equipment and that that was the reason why he was removed later, because

12     that was interpreted as his helping the Muslims.  That is his statement.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, thank you.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, let me just place an objection on

15     the record also with the way the question was asked.

16             Mr. Cvijetic, you haven't managed to persuade me of that.  I

17     don't think it is fair for a witness to be put that type of pressure of

18     having to persuade the Defence.

19             These type of comments are inappropriate in our view.

20             JUDGE HALL:  I -- I did hear that statement, but I thought it was

21     just the way of his phrasing it, and I let it pass, Mr. Demirdjian.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, do you know that the minister of the interior

24     adopted a regulation on the disciplinary accountability of the employees

25     of the MUP of the Serbian Republic and wartime conditions?

Page 9912

 1        A.   I don't remember.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see 1D54.

 3             I'm afraid that the document is visible only on half the screen.

 4     We won't be able to enlarge it.  Could we please change that.

 5             Could we just see the English version too.

 6             I think this is the correct page in the Serbian version, but I

 7     don't think the English page is right.  This seems to be the title page

 8     only.  We have to go one further.  Could we please zoom in.

 9        Q.   Can you read this first page, Mr. Petrovic?

10        A.   Yes, sure.

11        Q.   Here you can see that the minister, while this -- these

12     circumstances were -- prevailed, established disciplinary responsibility

13     of MUP staff.  And the CSB chiefs, administration chiefs in the ministry,

14     and police detachment commanders took over the function of the first

15     instances disciplinary organ.

16             It goes on to say that the Ministry of Interior will rule on

17     appeals.  Can you see that?  It's in the second paragraph.

18        A.   Yes, I can see that.

19        Q.   Let us go to the first page of the document.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Actually, in the following page of

21     the document.

22        Q.   In these provisions, especially in Article 2, it --

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we display Article 2 in the

24     English version, please; it's on the next page.

25             Could we please turn to the following page in English, where a

Page 9913

 1     list of these serious violations can be found.

 2        Q.   Until we were shown that, sir, here's a list of serious

 3     violations of work duty and those which are characterised as lighter

 4     violations, or less serious violations.

 5             Can you see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Under Article 4 --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, interpreter's correction:  3.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Which is on the following page in

10     both linguistic versions, it seems.  Let us just scroll down so we can

11     see Article 3 in English.

12        Q.   Here's a list of disciplinary measures that can be imposed for

13     violating a work duty.

14             Can you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And here's an admonition, public admonition, and transfer to

17     other jobs for up to 12 years, fines, and termination of employment.

18             Can you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Article 4 says that the chief of the CSB, among others, imposes

21     disciplinary measures for serious violations of work duty.  And it's the

22     chief of the SJB who does so for minor violations.

23             Article 5 reads that the procedure can be initiated by any MUP

24     staff.

25             Do you understand that?

Page 9914

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   The following provisions describe the procedure for -- actually,

 3     the disciplinary procedure is outlined, where, in the first instance, the

 4     parties have to be heard, and then a measure will be taken.

 5             Mr. Petrovic, according to these rules, you could have been

 6     removed from your position pursuant to the decision of the chief of the

 7     CSB.  And that decision -- or, rather, you could appeal that decision by

 8     filing an appeal to the minister who is a second-instance body.

 9             Was it that way?

10        A.   Well, it probably was.  But I was removed, pursuant to a

11     dispatch.  There was no disciplinary procedure involved.  That's it.

12        Q.   You're saying that you saw that dispatch and that it says that

13     the minister is removing you.

14        A.   Yes, that's what it says.  And it finishes by saying that

15     disciplinary procedure shall be initiated or something like that.

16        Q.   Is the reason for your removal stated?

17        A.   No, it isn't.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

19     deal with that dispatch.  Could we, therefore, see a document that -- or

20     whose translation we have been waiting for.  It is 1D03-3251.

21             1D03- -- yes, this is it.

22        Q.   Mr. Petrovic.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   This is the dispatch.  Can you identify it?

25        A.   Yes, I can.

Page 9915

 1        Q.   Is it true that this is the very dispatch?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   I'll read the text.  I'll ask the interpreters to interpret.

 4     It's very short.  We sent it for translation, but it isn't done yet.

 5             The heading reads:  Ministry of Internal Affairs, Bijeljina.  And

 6     then there is a number which is barely legible, but the date, as you

 7     said, is the 18th of January, 1993.

 8             Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The document was sent to the CSB of Doboj; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   It goes on to say:

13             "Reference, your dispatch number 13/93."

14             And then the date isn't really legible.  But it is clear that the

15     year is 1993.  Can you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In paragraph 1, Mr. Stanisic says:

18             "Pursuant to your proposal concerning Milorad Novakovic, a

19     decision has been adopted to the effect that, as of 15 January 1993, he

20     is appointed to the position of chief of SJB Doboj."

21             Have I read this out correctly?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In the following line, we can see that it says:

24             "The decision will be sent to you by regular mail."

25             And the last paragraph reads:

Page 9916

 1             "As for the shortcomings in the work of the earlier chief of

 2     SJB Doboj, Obren Petrovic, you shall act in accordance with the

 3     provisions of the rules of disciplinary accountability."

 4             And, finally, it is signed:

 5             "Minister of the Interior, Mico Stanisic."

 6             Have I read out this dispatch correctly?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, with regard to you and any other staff of the

 9     ministry, the minister implemented the rules that he passed himself, as

10     well as the law.  And as we see, he didn't remove you, nor had -- did he

11     have the authority to do so.  On the contrary.  He demands that the rules

12     be applied in order to establish your possible accountability, and he

13     doesn't even go into the reasons for your removal.

14             Is this what this dispatch says?

15        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

16        Q.   It follows that the minister was in a position to learn about

17     your problem only if you were to appeal the disciplinary measure of

18     transfer to another position or termination of employment.  And only then

19     would he possibly consider the reasons for your removal.  Is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Well, that's how it should have been.

22        Q.   It follows from this that up until January 18th the disciplinary

23     file hadn't even made it to the minister because he demands that this be

24     done to enable him to act.

25             Furthermore, the only thing you hold against the minister -- he

Page 9917

 1     said he may have listened to you as a human, as a -- as a person, right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And here's what I put to you:  The minister cannot violate the

 4     rules; and being the second-instance disciplinary body, he is not allowed

 5     to anticipate the outcome of the disciplinary procedure in the first

 6     instance.  So he cannot even hear you until your appeal and your file

 7     come to his desk.

 8             Mr. Petrovic, you will agree with me, won't you, that the

 9     minister doesn't deal with your cooperation with the Muslims or your help

10     to the Muslims here.  Does that -- isn't that what follows from

11     this -- from this document?

12        A.   No.  This -- what you said cannot be found in the document.

13        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, you told us that, practically speaking, you didn't

14     lose your job within the police force; you were just transferred to a

15     different job.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What tasks did you receive?

18        A.   Inspector for aliens.

19        Q.   Until when you first stayed at the police force?

20        A.   Until the 4th of May, 1993.

21        Q.   Did you continue working after that date?  Were you in the police

22     force in 1994?

23        A.   On the 27th of May.  So, more than a year later.

24     27th of May 1994, I've started working again.

25        Q.   Who received you back into the police force in 1994?  Who was at

Page 9918

 1     the head of the MUP at the time when you were received back?

 2        A.   I don't remember.

 3        Q.   In a conversation, you told me that you remembered that

 4     Mr. Stanisic was appointed for the minister of the interior in 1994, and

 5     that he even appointed you as a commander of a PJP unit.

 6        A.   I was appointed, but I wasn't seen by the minister.  I didn't

 7     have a conversation with him.

 8        Q.   But who appointed you, whose signature was on the document, who

 9     appointed you to this PJP unit, commander's position?

10        A.   It was based on the proposal of the commander of the centre,

11     Vaso Skondric, and it was the minister who was current minister at the

12     time.

13        Q.   Which one?  Which minister?

14        A.   If you say it was Stanisic, then it was Stanisic.

15        Q.   I want to hear you saying it, that it was Mr. Stanisic.

16        A.   Well, I don't remember.

17        Q.   Well, I put it to you that in 1994 Mico Stanisic appointed to you

18     this position.

19             Mr. Petrovic, it is obvious that Mr. Stanisic did not find

20     anything wrong with your assistance to the Muslims and appointed you to

21     your post.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a proposal

23     here.  Since the witness recognised this document by Mico Stanisic and

24     the documents only needs a translation, I would like to ask for this

25     document to be MFI'd.  We will notify the Chamber once the translation is

Page 9919

 1     in.  It's going to happen very soon.  It's a very short document.

 2             I have been told the translation will come in today, even.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so it should be so marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D258, marked for identification,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, let us go back to the beginning of your testimony

 8     here during the direct examination.  I would like to clear up the

 9     conditions in Doboj in 1992, and I would like to ask you to help me clear

10     this up.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... before you

12     move on, there's some unclarity in the evidence that you have elicited

13     from the witness.  I thought you told us earlier this morning that the

14     real reason why this witness was removed from his position as chief of

15     the SJB in Doboj was not as the witness claimed yesterday, that he had

16     been assisting Muslims, but, rather, for some other reasons.  And I

17     understood your questions to be that the real reason was that this

18     witness was inefficient in his role as chief of the SJB.

19             Now, just now, a very short while ago, you came back to the issue

20     of whether or not he had assisted Muslims.  And now you used that

21     argument to suggest that, in fact, Stanisic had, all along, been aware of

22     the fact that the witness had been helping Muslims but that he didn't

23     mind.

24             I don't know if I misunderstood you, but if this -- so then there

25     seems to be a contradiction in the two parts of your -- of the evidence

Page 9920

 1     that you have received from this witness, so I kindly ask you to clarify.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what wasn't

 3     translated to you, I made an allusion.  I said that the minister did not

 4     hold it against you, that was an allusion I was making.  But what I

 5     wanted to say it's obvious that he didn't even know the reasons, the

 6     minister.

 7             Tanja tells me that it wasn't translated, so I would like to ask

 8     this to be entered into the transcript.

 9             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Have I made it clear now,

11     Your Honour?

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you remember that I told you that minister

13     obviously did not know even about the reasons?  Did I say that?

14        A.   When?

15        Q.   When I said that Mr. Stanisic didn't hold it against you

16     and -- because he didn't even know that -- the reason was, just now.

17        A.   I don't know exactly what words you have used.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  At this point counsel is giving evidence here,

19     and he is saying that it wasn't translated.  I believe, if we go a few

20     pages up, his comment was translated.  He says:

21             "Mr. Petrovic, it is obvious that Mr. Stanisic did not find

22     anything wrong with your assistance to the Muslims and appointed you to

23     your post."

24             And then he moved on to his next question.

25             And that is at page 15, line 15.  So I'm just as confused as to

Page 9921

 1     where this is going.  Because you're giving evidence and not the witness.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Well, of course, the disadvantage that we have is

 3     that we hear a question, which is interpreted, we hear an answer that's

 4     interpreted, it is only as Mr. Cvijetic has now represented that there is

 5     something that wasn't interpreted.  So I suggest that if this is what he

 6     is saying happened, then the question should be asked again to avoid, as

 7     Mr. Demirdjian has just pointed out, the possibility of counsel giving

 8     evidence.

 9             Sorry, Mr. Pantelic, you had something to add?

10             MR. PANTELIC:  No, Your Honour, it's just a clarification from

11     transcript.  It's page 16, line 24.  My learned friend Mr. Cvijetic said

12     "allusion" but not "illusion," so it should be corrected.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  And Tanja is telling me that

15     it was mistranslated, that the second part of my sentence was not

16     translated, the part where I said that he most probably didn't even know

17     about it.  This is not my testimony.  I'm just putting into the

18     transcript the parts of what I've asked and wasn't entered in.  That was

19     all, Your Honours.  It was a commentary by me.  But the Prosecutor was

20     right, I shouldn't have testified.

21             May I continue, Your Honour?

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, the town of Doboj is situated in the - let's call

25     it - dark zone that was left out once the corridor was cut?

Page 9922

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Banja Luka and the Republic of Serbian Krajina was also in that

 3     zone?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The town of Doboj is specific because, militarily speaking, it

 6     was surrounded by Muslim and Croat forces from the three sides, and you

 7     were only in contact with Banja Luka; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   From what I've gathered from your testimony, the actual physical

10     communication, and also using other modes of communication with other

11     parts of the Republika Srpska and the ministry itself, Doboj established

12     such communication only in late July/beginning of August.  Am I right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In Doboj, under such condition, several units came to -- to

15     Doboj.  Major Stankovic; the Red Berets; paramilitary formations getting

16     set there; and also Colonel Lisica shows up, the man who was in command

17     of the operation of breakout?

18        A.   Well, Colonel Lisica came only later, when the forces started

19     heading towards Brod.  Initially it was Talic who was in command.  There

20     was Martic's police and all these that you've listed, all the other

21     units.

22        Q.   Major Stankovic destroyed the organisation of the CSB and turns

23     stations of reserve police into detachments?

24        A.   Well, he created the Doboj police detachment, using the

25     detachments established by him, military detachments, and then he

Page 9923

 1     transferred these people, about 300 of them, into the police.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  1300.  Correction, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And because without that we

 4     wouldn't have even 200 policemen.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   The use of these very same units in combat activities was

 7     something that he was ordering, and he claimed to be the commander of the

 8     defence of Doboj.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Well, yes.  These companies were organised in such a way that

10     they were positioned on front lines towards either Tuzla or Zenica or

11     Jahovac.  These were the lines against Croatian forces.  He believed that

12     since they were on these lines already, he can subordinate the companies,

13     individual companies.  Depending on the operation.  For instance, if it

14     was about Grapska, he would take the company that was in the vicinity of

15     Grapska and use it.

16        Q.   I have a statement from your written statement where you are

17     saying that Red Berets also obeyed his orders.  Am I right?

18        A.   Yes, they did obey them.

19        Q.   You told us yesterday that the Red Berets could resubordinate

20     part of the reserve police using his authority and then use it in combat

21     activities.

22        A.   Yes.  Based on Stankovic's order, they could have done so.

23        Q.   Did the police have anything to do with paramilitary formations?

24        A.   No, no, they didn't.

25        Q.   You claim they didn't.  Am I right?

Page 9924

 1        A.   No, they didn't.

 2        Q.   They didn't have any cooperation with the police -- or, rather,

 3     the police with them?

 4        A.   No, they didn't.

 5        Q.   Occasionally they would even surround the CSB building, and you

 6     had to ask Major Stankovic to intervene and to have you released?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Does that mean that they were under his authority, since they

 9     obeyed him?

10        A.   Well, since they obeyed him, it should mean that he was their

11     commander.

12        Q.   The question was put to you about who was supplying the

13     Red Berets with weapons and ammunition.  You said that it was the army.

14        A.   Yes, the army.  They had depots.  They also formed detachments.

15     They armed them.

16        Q.   And then we come to the following question:  If all of them were

17     under the authority of the army, how is it possible that this unit of the

18     Red Berets was, for about a month or a month and a half, on the pay list

19     of the CSB?

20             Let me put it to you -- let me put my case to you, and you will

21     tell me whether you think it is possible.

22             The commander of the Red Berets and Major Stankovic could have

23     gone to the part of the service where the pay lists were being made an

24     order for these people to be put on the pay list, and you, in the police,

25     could not say no to that.  Am I right?

Page 9925

 1        A.   The establishment of the detachments by Stankovic, based on the

 2     conclusion of the Crisis Staff that everyone should receive their pay,

 3     makes me conclude that people, even people who weren't part of SUP, were

 4     receiving salary from us.  Even the decision for payment for the month of

 5     April --

 6        Q.   Let me just see if everything is in the transcript.

 7             Mr. Petrovic, the point I'm trying to make is that the members of

 8     the unit commanded by Rajo Bozovic, were never members of the police,

 9     that is to say, of the public security centre, in formal and legal terms,

10     that is?

11        A.   Well, in formal and legal terms, they weren't.

12        Q.   The fact that they were on the payroll for a month and a half or

13     two is the result of what we've just been discussing and did not confer

14     upon them the status of authorised officials of the

15     Security Services Centre.

16             Am I right?

17        A.   I believe that you are.

18        Q.   You said yesterday that the funds for the salaries arrived from

19     Sarajevo; you probably meant the Ministry of Interior.  But, in that

20     case, the payroll could not have looked this way, because, after all,

21     they would also then be members of the Ministry of the Interior.

22        A.   Well, yes.  This only lasted for a month or two.

23        Q.   You also said that the payroll for April is a bit controversial.

24        A.   Yes, because there were different individuals who were on the

25     reserve police force.

Page 9926

 1        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, the last question on this topic that I have is a

 2     very clear one:  The payroll was, in fact, condoned by the Crisis Staff

 3     who approved these funds for the payment of salaries?

 4        A.   Well, for the -- the remaining policemen, 250, there were no

 5     salaries to be found, not even for the army --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

 7     sentence he said.  And can the speakers please make a pause.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  The interpreters would wish the -- yeah.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I will repeat my question, and can you please give us a brief

11     answer.

12             Did -- did the Crisis Staff condone this practice of payrolls by

13     approving funds for the salaries?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, in addition to the units that I enumerated, there

16     were several other minor paramilitary formations present in the area.

17     They had different names and various uniforms, did they not?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   There was a paramilitary group called Kraljica, Queen; is that

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Preda's Wolves.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   There were several units named after their leaders.  There was

25     Dragan Ljubicic and several others.  Is that right?

Page 9927

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You, Mr. Petrovic, were not in conflict with any of these unit,

 3     starting from Stankovic to the Green Berets -- the Red Berets and

 4     paramilitary formations, you personally.  Is that right?

 5        A.   Well, I did not particularly agree with them, but I didn't have

 6     any physical contacts with them either.

 7        Q.   You have anticipated my next question.  The fact that you were

 8     not in conflict with them does not necessarily mean that you agreed with

 9     them or supported what they did; is that right?

10        A.   I did not support what they were doing.

11        Q.   Bearing in mind the extent to which the police was engaged in war

12     activities at the time, were you capable of standing up to all these

13     units and their orders, and were you able to prevent their activities, at

14     least for that period of a month and a half?

15        A.   Well, not.  We were not.

16        Q.   Go ahead.

17        A.   Because all the police force was deployed to the lines.  And I

18     told you how that small number of policemen left behind at the police

19     station fared.  They were beaten up too.

20        Q.   You will agree with me, then, will you not, that, save for the

21     siege from the outside mounted by the Muslim and Croat forces, Doboj also

22     experienced some sort of a siege from within, where the police did not

23     have room for any sort of ordinary policing work; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Based on their geographical location, many of the police stations

Page 9928

 1     belonging to the Security Services Centre were under the control of the

 2     Croat and Muslim forces so that the very Security Services Centre boiled

 3     down to, at best, a public security station of Doboj.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat his answer, please.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, would you please repeat your last

 6     answer.  The interpreters didn't get it.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was Doboj, Teslic, and

 8     Petrovo.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You will agree with me, then, that identical problems existed in

11     Teslic and Petrovo, as in Doboj; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Finally, on -- on this topic, let me say that for all practical

14     intents and purposes the centre in Doboj, with its chief

15     Andrija Bjelosevic, had only you and your station in Doboj, essentially,

16     through which he could have or -- or should have tried to enforce law and

17     order in Doboj; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You said that in that period of time it was practically

20     impossible because you did not have the necessary clout.  Am I right?

21        A.   Well, we didn't have the clout, and there was the Banja Luka unit

22     that arrived immediately.

23        Q.   At the time, you could only have received assistance from

24     Banja Luka, and not from the centre at Pale, right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9929

 1        Q.   In that period of time, Mr. Petrovic, you could have engaged in

 2     law enforcement activities with how many men exactly?  Tell us.

 3        A.   I don't think we had more than 20 policemen at the station.

 4        Q.   With as many policemen, you could not have secured your own

 5     station either, could you have?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Orders from the chief of the Security Services Centre did reach

 8     you, and in these orders he demanded that you take at least some sort of

 9     action.  And you, within the limits of what was possible, did try and

10     take some measures, did you not?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Before the break I have one more question to finish this off,

13     though I think you have already stated this.

14             None of the detention centres existing at the time were under the

15     control of the police; is that right?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.

17        Q.   You had a small room within your station, but my understanding is

18     that even the individuals you were entitled to hold in custody for up to

19     three days were transferred to the official district prison because the

20     conditions there were better; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   The unlawful activities of unlawful detention from that period of

23     time had nothing to do with the police force, did they?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 9930

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

 2     move onto a different topic, and I suggest that now would be the right

 3     time for the break.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  You may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, I will now start showing you some documents I would

11     like you to comment on.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D00-0700.

13        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, this is a decision of the Crisis Staff of the

14     Serbian municipality of Doboj.  As you see, it's dated 15 June 1992; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I apologise, the written version was drafted on the 15th of June,

18     but in the first sentence we can see that it is basically a decision

19     taken at a meeting held on the 15th of May, 1992.  I made a mistake.

20             Do you agree, is that what it says?

21        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

22        Q.   All items are interesting to us.  Let us start with number 1.

23             It says:

24             "The chief of the public security station is tasked with ensuring

25     that all decisions and conclusions of the Crisis Staff relating to the

Page 9931

 1     public security station are carried out within five days."

 2             Mr. Petrovic, this seems to be applying to you, seems to be

 3     referring to you.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You will agree with me, won't you, when I say that obviously at

 6     that moment the Crisis Staff is the highest authority in the territory of

 7     Doboj municipality, which means that it can engage in doing your work?

 8        A.   Well, yes.  The person signed here is Stankovic, the commander of

 9     the defence of the town.

10        Q.   You actually answered my question -- following question in

11     advance.  I was about to ask that the most important decision in town

12     were taken by them, right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   All right.  Let's move on to item 2.  It says:

15             The Crisis Staff of Doboj municipality requests that the chief of

16     the Doboj Security Centre to give reasons or explain all decisions of the

17     MUP relating to the organisation of the centre and the appointment of

18     personnel there.

19             You will agree with me, won't you, when I say that at that

20     moment, when there was no communication with the ministry, the

21     Crisis Staff started meddling with the work of the ministry, including

22     the appointments at the centre.  Is that what follows from this item?

23        A.   Well, it does follow from this decision.

24        Q.   If we remind ourselves of that information note by

25     Andrija Bjelosevic, the chief, about how his assistant, Milan Savic, was

Page 9932

 1     appointed, we see that what he wrote - namely, that he was appointed

 2     purpose to a decision of the Crisis Staff - is indeed true.  Is that

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   Let's pass on to item 3.  Again, something for you.  It says:

 6             "The chief of the public security station is tasked with

 7     compiling a list of appointed heads and inspectors and send it to the

 8     Crisis Staff for approval."

 9             The following paragraph reads:

10             "All appointments at the public security station are considered

11     temporary and shall remain in force until the situation has returned to

12     normal and the combat operations have ended."

13             In other words, the appointments of lower-ranking staff in your

14     station, the Crisis Staff's approval is required.  That's what it says,

15     isn't it?

16        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

17        Q.   Thus, they are, in fact, limiting your legal authority to appoint

18     personnel?

19        A.   Under the law, I should have made a proposal for appointments to

20     the chief, and the chief was supposed to forward that to the minister.

21        Q.   You will agree with me, won't you, when I say that this actually

22     breaks the decision-making chain in the MUP, doesn't it?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Item 4.  Here the Crisis Staff orders all groups and individuals

25     who are maintaining law and order in the area of the Serbian municipality

Page 9933

 1     of Doboj to place themselves under the command of the chief - and I will

 2     give my own account later on - that is, to you.  And you are to --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the last part?

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So the Crisis Staff goes on interfering with this decision-making

 6     process in the MUP and assigns you tasks, right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Then you are required to submit reports to the Crisis Staff in

 9     the next paragraph, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And let us not quote every subsequent item.  Anyway, all

12     subsequent items relate to the work of the SJBs, and tasks are assigned

13     to it.  Can you see that?

14        A.   Yes, I can see it.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't hear the last sentence the witness

16     said.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Please repeat the last part of your answer and wait for the

19     interpretation to finish.

20             Say it now.

21        A.   At the end, they also referred to the municipal prison.

22        Q.   Yes.  We've already received information from which it follows

23     that the prison warden submitted reports to the Crisis Staff and made

24     requests to them.

25             Mr. Petrovic, the Crisis Staff, among others, decided that a

Page 9934

 1     curfew be imposed in the territory of the Serbian municipality of Doboj

 2     in a certain time-period.  Am I right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   That decision applied to all citizens except for authorised

 5     officials and persons working for bodies of special interest; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So the Crisis Staff gives tasks to the police to implement its

 9     decision and control its -- its -- control the implementation.

10        A.   After -- apart from the police, the Red Berets did so and the

11     military police.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see a document of

14     the Crisis Staff that has to do with this.

15             Your Honours, I apologise.  This previous document, as it was

16     recognised by the witness, I will repeat that it is 1D00-0700.  I seek to

17     tender it into evidence.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D259, Your Honours.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Could we now please see 1D00-47 - correction - 4575.  4575.

23        Q.   Do take a minute to read it so you can comment on it.

24             So, the Crisis Staff adopts a decision on rules governing law and

25     order in the Serbian municipality of Doboj.  And in Article 1 it

Page 9935

 1     stipulates that moving or loitering outside the permitted hours - and

 2     that is three hours a day; I believe it was from 8.00 till 11.00 - in the

 3     morning, to get supplies, et cetera, was -- is considered a violation.

 4        A.   Well, the hours changed.  Sometimes they would be extended; other

 5     times, shortened.

 6        Q.   Apart from this, a violation is also staying in public places for

 7     a longer time.  We don't need to go into the details.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Finally, could we please go to the

 9     last page.  Can we see Articles 4 and 5 in English.  It should be on the

10     following page.  Yes, here it's.

11        Q.   In Article 4, you see that fines are imposed for violations of

12     law and order.

13             You will agree with me, won't you, that there is no distinction

14     made in this decision between citizens based on their ethnicity.  So it

15     applied to all citizens, right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So it also applied to Serbs, didn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'll ask you, as a police officer with much experience:  This

20     measure was motivated by practical and security-related reasons, right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   It wasn't safe to move about Doboj in that period, due to the

23     constant shelling.  And this also enabled the police to control the town

24     easier in a certain period, right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9936

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, I noticed that in the title of this

 2     document the order seemed to be restricted to the Serbian municipality of

 3     Doboj.  Since you are raising the issue of the territorial extension of

 4     this decision, you might just check this out with the witness.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I do not understand.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You --

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I can ask the witness directly.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You raised the issue of whether this issue

 9     applied to all citizens, including Serbs.  And my comment to that was

10     that since the decision appears to be limited in its territorial

11     extension, then it might be that in the non-Serb part of the Doboj

12     municipality the decision did not bind anyone.  Meaning that the decision

13     would only bind people living within the Serbian part of the Doboj

14     municipality, and, of course, it would apply to Serbs living there and

15     possibly also to whichever Muslims or Croats have -- remained.

16             So you are raising, really, the issue of whether or not this

17     decision would apply outside the Serbian part of the Doboj municipality.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you have answered

19     the question already.  But I actually meant the same that you're saying.

20        Q.   But we can ask the witness to which territory this decision

21     applied and whether it applied to all citizens in the Serbian

22     municipality of Doboj, regardless of their ethnicity.

23        A.   The Serbian municipality included the entire town and applied to

24     all citizens.

25        Q.   Regardless of their ethnicity?

Page 9937

 1        A.   Regardless of their ethnicity.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness is

 3     familiar with this decision, and, to some extent, he had to implement it,

 4     I seek to tender it into evidence.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D260, Your Honours.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the -- oh, shall we call up

 8     1D00-2327, as a follow-up on the document we've looked at before.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, this is an order from the chief of the

12     Security Services Centre, Doboj, to the public security station in Doboj,

13     where, in the preamble, it is stated, Due to the increasing number of

14     public complaints regarding raids by persons wearing blue uniforms into

15     homes in Doboj at night, searches conducted without appropriate warrants,

16     harassment, appropriation of money and so on, persons being taken away,

17     the chief hereby orders, under 1, that the public security station in

18     Doboj should gather all the various notices by citizens and other

19     information on these developments and investigate how founded these

20     complaints, indeed, were?

21             Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In item 2, the chief orders that control at check-points be

24     stepped up.  And goes on to say that while curfew is in force, only

25     official vehicles may move about if they are issued with an appropriate

Page 9938

 1     order from an authorised official from the public security centre, or

 2     station; whereas, other vehicles should be excluded from traffic and the

 3     individuals who were in the vehicle should be taken into custody for as

 4     long as the curfew is in force.

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Other measures are also proposed with a view to enforcing law and

 8     order, and they are contained in items 3 and 4.  We can read them, but I

 9     think it's enough to confirm that you can see them here.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I suppose that you did receive this order.  It does state you

12     among the addressees.

13        A.   I probably did.

14        Q.   It was an obligation on your part, and I suppose you did act upon

15     it?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   What strikes me here is that not even members of the police

18     station or centre can move about unless they are furnished with

19     appropriate orders or documents.

20             Is that your interpretation of item 2 as well?  Can you read it,

21     please.

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   And you are aware of this order of his and the containing

24     provisions?

25        A.   Well, it's been a long time, but from what I can see, that's it.

Page 9939

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the OTP has no

 2     objection to make, the witness is familiar with the document and was

 3     aware of, and I wish to tender it into evidence.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, I eventually appreciated that the

 5     previous document was being tendered in support of the Defence case that

 6     the curfew was of universal application and wasn't confined to non-Serbs.

 7     I am not sure I appreciate what this document adds, why we would need to

 8     exhibit this.

 9             Could you assist me, please.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is another

11     document that I'm using to show how restrictive the measure was that it

12     even applied to policemen who could only move about the town if they had

13     an appropriate written order to that effect, issued by their superiors.

14             So I'm seeking to tender this to show the strict nature of the

15     measure concerned.

16             This other document, therefore, has its value independently as

17     well, and not just as supplementing the earlier document.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE HALL:  We, by majority, rule that it may be admitted and

20     marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D261, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, I have a question in relation to

23     adjudicated facts.  The evidence you're eliciting from the witness about

24     the curfew being applicable to everybody, is this a challenge of

25     adjudicated fact 1268?  Sorry, 12 -- yes, 1268.

Page 9940

 1             Is it?

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And this isn't

 3     the first witness through whom we have been challenging this fact.  I

 4     believe it's the third, in fact.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, but this -- the order -- or the dispatch

 6     you're referring to is of the 12th of September, if I'm not wrong; is

 7     that right?

 8             MS. KORNER:  Yes [Microphone not activated].

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the date in the adjudicated fact is the

11     3rd of May of 1992.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the earlier document

13     was dated in May.  The Crisis Staff decision bears the date of May,

14     and ... the 15th of May.  Can you see it?  I'm talking about the earlier

15     document.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I can't see that.  You have to help me.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-700.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Previous translation continues] ...

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Just for the record, that document is dated the

22     15th of June, not 15th of May.  I know it refers to another decision of

23     the 15th of May, but the header indicates 15th of June.  Right.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, Mr. Cvijetic, I still don't understand.  The

25     question that was raised by Judge Delvoie was whether a document which is

Page 9941

 1     dated the 12th of September, 1992, was introduced to challenge the

 2     adjudicated facts 1268, which refers to a situation taking place on the

 3     3rd of May, 1992.

 4             So there seems to be a difference in time here of several months.

 5     So I'm not sure that I agree with you that the document from

 6     September could challenge the situation that was existing in Doboj in

 7     early May 1992.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you in part,

 9     Your Honour.

10             I said that this document has its independent value, regardless

11     of all the earlier documents and the imposition of curfew.  However,

12     curfew was a standing measure that apparently was in force in

13     September as well.  This document indicates how the measure was

14     implemented and who it applied to.  That's the gist.  And all of these

15     documents taken together will indicate the continuity of the measure of

16     curfew, imposition of measures to punish violations; and when we put all

17     these documents together, they will lead us to a conclusion about the

18     character of curfew and the way it was applied.

19             I've already explained the basis on which I wish to tender this

20     document into evidence.  It has its independent value.  The witness

21     commented on it.  It relates to his station and his centre.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I accept -- I accept this.  But in all fairness

23     to the witness, I think that you would then have to go through the same

24     exercise that we did earlier on with another witness, to check whether

25     these laissez-passers or documents were issued to all citizens or only to

Page 9942

 1     Serbs.  I mean, you remember the discussion we had at the time.  And if

 2     you want to use this document as a means to challenge the adjudicated

 3     fact, then I think you -- you have to -- to do it thoroughly.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will seek assistance from the

 5     witness, and I will put questions to him directly.

 6        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, at the time the curfew was not in force, could all

 7     the citizens of Doboj municipality, regardless of their ethnicity, move

 8     freely about the town?

 9        A.   Not when the curfew was in force.

10        Q.   My question concerned the hours outside of the curfew.

11        A.   Yes.  They could move freely when the curfew was not in force,

12     but that was only for a short period of time.

13        Q.   Outside the curfew, were they required to carry along any sort of

14     laissez-passers?

15        A.   Not initially, and this relates to the period right after the

16     3rd of May, the dates that the -- His Honour referred to.  It was on the

17     4th and 5th and 6th.  During this earlier period, people were taken into

18     custody.  It was only later on that the curfew was introduced and nobody

19     could move about, and only those could move about who had special

20     laissez-passers.  They were Serbs, Croats, Muslims who were charged with

21     essential services, who worked on special duties.

22        Q.   Therefore, when the curfew was in force, those who had permits,

23     appropriate permits, be they Muslims, Croats, or Serbs, they could move

24     about the town freely; is that right?

25        A.   Yes, they could.

Page 9943

 1        Q.   The part where you said who worked was not entered.

 2        A.   Yes.  Who worked for specific companies and were under a work

 3     obligation.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Does -- Your Honour, does this

 5     answer your question?

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  I guess the issue boils down to the

 7     question of whether, to the witness's knowledge, there was, at any time,

 8     a situation in which laissez-passers or similar documents were handed out

 9     only to Serbs and not to Croats and Muslims in Doboj.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, are you aware of such a situation as described by

12     His Honour?

13        A.   When this practice of issuing permits or laissez-passers

14     started - I don't know when it was - they were issued to the Serbs

15     because most of the Serbs were indeed manning the army and the police.

16     To the Bosniaks, those who worked in companies, they were also issued

17     with laissez-passers, as were Croats.  If these individuals were not

18     engaged in any such duties, they were not issued with laissez-passers.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would, therefore, like to have

23     this document admitted into evidence.

24             Can we have a ruling on this?  I'll repeat the number, 1D00-

25             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... it's admitted.

Page 9944

 1             MR. CVIJETIC:  Okay.  [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             Can we now call up document 1D00-0251.

 3        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, we have a regular combat report of the command of

 4     the 1st Krajina Corps which was sent to the Main Staff of the Army of the

 5     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Can you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Military information is listed therein, describing the situation

 8     at the front lines, and this isn't something of interest to me.  What I

 9     find relevant is the last page of the document.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have that.  It's page 3 in

11     the B/C/S version, and, of course, the last page in the English.

12             We need the earlier page in English.  We'd like to see item 9.  I

13     see we don't have the last page in the B/C/S.

14             Can we have items 9 in both versions.  Yes, and have the English

15     scrolled down.  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, the 1st Krajina Corps command states as follows,

17     and I'm reading the second sentence:

18             One police battalion has joined the Doboj Operational Group in

19     keeping with your order.  They reported on the afternoon of the

20     11th June.

21             Mr. Petrovic, this seems to confirm what you said; that's to say,

22     that we have an order of the Main Staff of the Serb army no less, whereby

23     a police battalion was attached to the Doboj Operational Group.  Is that

24     right?

25        A.   Yes.  Can I explain?

Page 9945

 1        Q.   I will put a question to you, so we'll get to that.

 2             Can you briefly tell me, what happens when such a police unit

 3     joins a military one?  What becomes of the unit and its members?  Can you

 4     explain this.

 5        A.   They are subordinated --

 6        Q.   Go ahead.

 7        A.   They are subordinated to military units.  In this case, it

 8     involved preparations for breaching the corridor or breaking through the

 9     corridor, which means that they practically subordinated the entire Doboj

10     police unit for the purposes of breaking through the corridor.  Their

11     justification for it was, I suppose, that the line along the centre of

12     Doboj was one kilometre long, so they probably thought that by this token

13     Doboj was part of the combat zone, and the police needed to get involved

14     in these war operations.  That was their explanation from the start.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I think that what you said was that the entire police force in

18     Doboj became part of this military unit manning the Doboj lines; is that

19     right?

20             Go ahead.

21        A.   In this case, the entire police force was engaged, because it had

22     to do with the opening up of the corridor.  And I spoke also of

23     individual cases where, depending on the operation, they would be

24     engaging a company.

25        Q.   The battalion, as well as the police officer in -- presumably in

Page 9946

 1     command of it, joined a military unit?

 2        A.   Yes.  Bosko Djukic was at the head of this unit and led the unit

 3     in this particular assignment.

 4        Q.   Do you know to which military commander he was resubordinated, if

 5     you know?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know.  I know that he was in the staff where the

 7     commander was Alic, but I don't know which brigade that was.

 8        Q.   Can you please confirm that you are familiar with this order and

 9     that you're familiar with the resubordination, because the entire police

10     force of Doboj was involved.

11        A.   I do know of resubordination.  I don't know of the order itself,

12     but I do know at the time of the corridor the entire force was

13     resubordinated.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

15     tender this document into evidence, unless this is an objection, because

16     the witness knows enough about the contents of the document.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Again, I'm not sure I see why.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have discussed

19     with the witness - the witness volunteered information as well - about

20     the conditions in Doboj at the time, what may have caused such

21     conditions.  He talked about how it was impossible to carry out regular

22     police work in town itself at the time when combat operations were in

23     progress.

24             This document confirms, to a degree, his claims and explains them

25     further.

Page 9947

 1             JUDGE HALL:  But as I understand, even when you're putting this

 2     document to the witness, you were dealing with one phrase in a lengthy

 3     document which, as I understand your questions, are -- are -- you find

 4     some assistance in, but I -- I don't see how the document is sufficiently

 5     relevant for our purposes.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  And the witness doesn't know about this particular

 8     document.  He knows about this -- the situation of subordination, but he

 9     doesn't know about this particular document.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be accepting

11     your suggestion, and I'll change my proposal.

12             I would like to ask for this document to be marked for

13     identification, because one of the coming witnesses will be a military

14     expert and then we'll use him to give a comment on the document in its

15     entirety.  And as far as this element which related to the police, I

16     think it was useful to have this witness comment on it, and I would

17     tender it into evidence but marked for identification, please.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  So marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D262, marked for identification,

21     Your Honours.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let us move to the next document,

23     1D00-2363, please.

24        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, what we see here is the reaction by the chief of

25     the CSB to the issue of use of police in combat activities.  He's

Page 9948

 1     practically protesting against it with the operation group command.  He

 2     is asking for the withdrawal of the police from combat operations because

 3     the security situation in the Serbian municipality of Doboj, Derventa,

 4     Modrica is poor, which can be seen through increase of serious crimes

 5     such as murders, robberies, and similar.

 6             And then, in the second paragraph, he points out who is

 7     responsible for such crimes:  conscripts, uniformed personnel.  And makes

 8     a proposal that civilian police should coordinate with military police in

 9     order to suppress the crime.

10             Can you see this?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Are you aware of this initiative of your chief, whereby he wanted

13     to withdraw the police from combat operation?  Do you know that the

14     minister also asked for -- for it?

15        A.   Yes.  I can see from the document.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, there were two questions.  I have

17     had one answer.  To which of the two persons [sic] does that answer

18     apply?

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Sir, let me separate the two questions.

21             Do you know if the attempts by your chief of centre aimed at

22     withdrawing the police from combat operations; are you -- were you

23     informed about that?

24        A.   Well, most probably I was, but this was 18 years ago.

25        Q.   This as a result of this document.

Page 9949

 1        A.   Well, from the document I can see that he had asked for the

 2     police to be withdrawn from combat operation, military operations.

 3        Q.   You, as the chief of public security station, did you support

 4     this initiative?  Did you also need police officers to help you in

 5     carrying out your regular duties?

 6        A.   From the very beginning we stressed that it's necessary for the

 7     police to do their part of the work.

 8        Q.   Your requests were, therefore, built into this request by the

 9     chief.

10        A.   I think so.

11        Q.   The second part of the question, as Judge Delvoie insisted, was:

12     Did you also receive requests from the minister asking for a withdrawal

13     of police from combat operations to carry out regular duties?

14        A.   I can't remember that.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as the

16     initiative by the chief of centre, I believe that this witness gave

17     enough verification of the document.  I would like to ask for the

18     document to be tendered into evidence.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, could we ask where this document

20     comes from.  Because at the bottom of this document it seems to be a

21     compilation, and we see a page 137.  And this is repeated with a number

22     of other documents that the Defence seek to show.  So can we find out

23     where this comes from.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And to assist the Judges, perhaps if the usher

Page 9950

 1     could scroll down to the bottom of the B/C/S version.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document, as

 4     well as others that will follow, we've received from the team for

 5     investigation of war crimes based on our request dated

 6     16 of October, 2007.  We will submit this document to the Prosecution.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, if that's the case, it would be more

 9     appropriate to have the whole book, rather than just one page.  It might

10     be of assistance.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We are already in correspondence

12     with the OTP.  We are attempting to put all the documents that we

13     received from this team and put them on one list.  We have a date for

14     this document already.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm not seeking to take over, but the

16     document saga here, as you know, is a long running one between the

17     Defence and us.  The Defence can't extract one page from a book and then

18     decline to give us the rest of the pages.  We are formally now requesting

19     that we be supplied with the whole book from which this is page 137.

20             JUDGE HALL:  So we need take no action now even in terms of

21     considering marking this until the -- the whole matter of how this -- the

22     document of which this is a page is sorted out.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may intervene.

25             There is no book.  I don't know where Ms. Korner came up with

Page 9951

 1     the -- with the suggestion that this is a book.  Somebody wrote 137 on

 2     the document.  I don't know what it stands for.  I -- I really don't know

 3     what it stands for.

 4             We received the document on our request.  We will provide the

 5     Prosecutor with the official request and the official document, how we

 6     received this document, from whom we received it, and than is the batch.

 7     And we are using this document with this witness, and we are offering

 8     it -- for it to be marked and admitted.

 9             There's no -- I don't understand what book are we talking about

10     at all.  But we can clarify this in the next break with our friends from

11     the OTP.

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, yes, Your Honours, I agree.  We needn't take

13     this further, but it's no good in saying we received it with page 137; if

14     that's right, where are the other 136?  In what form was this document

15     received?  And, yes, can we see the original, please.

16             And at this stage I think it would be safer - can I put it this

17     way, Your Honour - were this document only to be marked MFI.

18             JUDGE HALL:  If that would simply matters, yes, it would be so

19     marked.  And perhaps the -- I may have added confusion by using the -- by

20     adding the term "book."

21             But it seems -- I take Mr. Zecevic's point that he can only deal

22     with what he has been given.  And it's merely a -- once the communication

23     is sorted out between both sides - and we -- we would all know where we

24     are going forward for this - but, for the time being, the document will

25     be marked for identification.

Page 9952

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  One detail, Your Honours.  The issue of

 2     the book.

 3             Can we scroll to the left of the B/C/S version.  You can see

 4     that -- a bit more, please.

 5             You can see that it's a photocopy from a book.  That's what was

 6     meant by "the book."  Do you see, the page breaks.  Yes.  And so this is

 7     not an original document; it's a photocopy from a book, a compilation.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  So the exhibit will be 1D263, marked for

 9     identification, Your Honours.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honours?

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have, please, document

13     1D00-2368.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, what we have here is the response to the request

17     issued by your chief where, in its second part, we can see a sentence

18     saying the withdrawal of police is not authorised because, if I do so,

19     the front will soon reach Doboj and you will not have any territory under

20     your control.

21             Can you see it?

22        A.   Yes.  Thank you.

23        Q.   In his ultimate sentence, he says:

24             "We welcome all forms of cooperation and assistance between the

25     military police and the police forces."

Page 9953

 1             Can you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So, Mr. Petrovic, your chief obviously cannot withdraw the police

 4     from combat operations without authorisation of the military commander,

 5     and that can be seen from his answer?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Bearing in mind the comments from

 8     before, I will not tender -- I will not move to tender this document,

 9     only in the respect that it can be MFI'd maybe.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this is not a document that the

11     document has seen.  It does not emanate from the MUP.  He cannot say how

12     this document was drafted; we have the same objection about the source.

13     But in addition to this, the witness can not recognise this document.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Unless I'm missing something, this seems to be a --

15     if not a part, a continuation of the previous document.  Because as

16     Judge Delvoie pointed out, the -- in the B/C/S version, the page number

17     138 appears at the bottom.  It seems to be that -- for the same reasons

18     that the previous document was marked for identification, that this

19     would -- should similarly -- not should, could similarly be marked.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could be marked, as long as we have that on the

21     record.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D264, marked for identification,

25     Your Honours.

Page 9954

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have, please, document

 2     1D01-0013.

 3        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, your chief reacted by saying - and we can see that

 4     in paragraph 2 - that he was surprised by the content of the order.

 5             And then in the second paragraph you will find the sentence where

 6     it is stated:

 7             "Well, I was issuing for approval -- when I was issuing approval

 8     for engagement of police in combat without my consent or an order by the

 9     minister of the interior, there was looting and disorder behind the

10     lines."

11             And we then see a list of things that were taking place.  Can you

12     see this?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   As we can see here, your chief keeps on insisting on withdrawal

15     of police from combat operations, but it doesn't seem to have effect.

16        A.   It seems so.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In accordance with your ruling, we

18     can see here this is a string of documents, a correspondence between

19     military command and the police.  I would like to ask for this document

20     to be MFI'd, the document that was -- originated in the CSB.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, can I ask - I can't see it on the

22     screen - but is it page 139?

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Same caveat, same objection, Your Honours.

Page 9955

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Marked for identification.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D265, marked for identification,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Could we now see the following document, 1D00-0345.

 6        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, this is an order of the group of operations to

 7     establish a mixed battalion, comprised of a company of military police, a

 8     company of police from Doboj and Teslic.

 9             We can see that this military order appoints

10     Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic commander of the company, and his deputy is

11     Lieutenant Stijepan Pepic.  Can you see it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In paragraph 3 there is even a combat order to attack along an

14     axis mentioned here.  Can you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You'll agree with me when I say, won't you, that your chief seems

17     to have re-worded for his activity to pull out the police by being

18     mobilised and sent off to the front line.  Is that your impression?

19        A.   Yes, that's my impression.

20        Q.   Do you know that he was drafted and sent to the front line with

21     this unit and that he took part in combat activities?

22        A.   I don't remember, but I can see here that this, indeed, happened.

23        Q.   Obviously you know nothing about this document, right?

24        A.   I don't remember.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 9956

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will not tender

 2     this document because it does not emanate from the CSB.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following

 6     document, 1D00 --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, it's just a few seconds before the

 8     time for the break.  Would you wish to reserve opening with this document

 9     until we return?

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honours.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, before you proceed, the Bench has two

17     questions of you, one connected with the other.  I'll raise -- I'll

18     formulate the first question; then Judge Delvoie, the question that's

19     connected with that.

20             And my question is that inasmuch as the -- as we understand the

21     case - and we use the word "case" to mean what both sides are

22     saying - there is no dispute as to the fact of the subordination of the

23     police to the military at some point, and then, of course, certain things

24     that would logically flow from this.

25             What is the utility of this series of documents which you seem to

Page 9957

 1     have telegraphed that there are more to come, because I think there were,

 2     like, three that we had marked for identification, and there are more to

 3     come, and how does this assist us?

 4             But before you formulate an answer to that, Judge Delvoie has a

 5     connected question.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  My question is about the adjudicated facts.  As

 7     you may have noticed, I try to follow what is adjudicate and so on, and

 8     the Trial Chamber would very much appreciate it, very much be assisted,

 9     if you challenge an adjudicated fact, that you say so, that you announce

10     the fact that are you challenging an adjudicated fact.  That would be

11     very helpful.  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, before Mr. Cvijetic answers, can I

13     just deal -- I'm taking over because this is a more general question

14     connected with the case as a whole.

15             To deal with the first question.  Your Honours, the Prosecution's

16     case is there is resubordination in times of combat.  The Defence case as

17     we understand it is that wherever the military are there's

18     resubordination to -- by the police -- of the police to the military.  We

19     do not accept that.  That is a bone of contention.  And a major bone of

20     contention.

21             The second matter is this.  We did many eons ago now say that the

22     Defence should be required, once adjudicated facts were granted or when

23     we thought they were granted, to say in -- not just as it comes up but

24     which ones they were actually going to dispute by way of evidence, and we

25     suggest that's something that should happen.  Because as it is coming out

Page 9958

 1     piecemeal in this way, we don't know what evidence we've got to call to

 2     deal with what we assumed were adjudicated facts and accepted.  But under

 3     the Lukic decision, as you know, at the last moment it transpired that

 4     the Defence were challenging adjudicated facts and the Prosecution were

 5     not allowed to the call evidence to deal with it.

 6             And so as His Honour Judge Delvoie says, I don't think it's good

 7     enough simply as it comes up for the Defence to say, We're challenging

 8     it, as has happened at the moment.  We've got to know, literally, by the

 9     end of this month because clearly we are going to have to file - and

10     we're working on it at the moment - matters -- sorry, an application to

11     call evidence about matters which are no longer the subject of

12     adjudicated facts.

13             So from that point of view, may I say Judge Delvoie's point is a

14     good one, but I think it has to go further than letting us know as it

15     happens.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Unless Mr. Cvijetic thinks that he has

17     been ambushed, having been made aware of the Trial Chamber's concerns,

18     this is something that he would consider, and we -- we could expect a

19     considered response in the not-too-distant future.

20             Could the witness be escorted back to the stand, please.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't feel

22     ambushed in any way, and I accept your suggestion about announcing the

23     challenging of adjudicated facts.  And there's no problem about

24     that -- with that.

25             As for the legal relevance of the issue of resubordination, no

Page 9959

 1     comment of mine is required now because Ms. Korner has spoken about that.

 2     We represent opposed parties, and we must present evidence to support our

 3     case.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I start --

 6     continue examining the witness, I would like to inform you that we have,

 7     in the meantime, procured a document of the cabinet of Republika Srpska

 8     date 16 October 2007 in which they reply to our request.  And in that

 9     document, under numbers 77, 78, and 79, these very documents are listed

10     which were marked for identification, because we could not prove their

11     origin.  And I will read which -- which documents these are.

12             The documents are:  1D263, MFI; 1D264, MFI; and 1D265 MFI.  And

13     this document we received from the cabinet was also forwarded to the OTP.

14             Therefore, it is our submission that these documents no longer

15     have MFI status but, rather, be admitted as Defence exhibits.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, there are two matters here.  First

17     of all, yes, we did receive a letter, but it's in Cyrillic.  So at this

18     moment I cannot read this document.  But on a good-faith basis, I assume

19     this was received from the Government of Republika Srpska or one of their

20     organs.  So once I am able to read it, I will be able to give you further

21     submissions.  That's number one.

22             Number 2.  It's not that we're saying there is any misconduct or

23     misbehaviour on the part of the Defence in relation to the document; what

24     we are saying is really that the source of the document itself seems to

25     be of a dubious character.  It seems to be coming from a photocopies of a

Page 9960

 1     book or compilation; I don't know.  What we're interested in knowing is:

 2     Where is the original?  Because this seems to be a photocopy of an

 3     original.  And we don't know if the original exists.  We don't know if

 4     the original has been tampered with or not.  We don't know what it is

 5     exactly.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before Mr. Cvijetic answers, could I just get

 7     back to the contention that was raised by Ms. Korner, because I'm not

 8     sure I fully understood the gist of it.

 9             Ms. Korner is quoted as having said that the Prosecution's case

10     is that there is resubordination in times of combat; whereas the Defence

11     case is that there's resubordination by the police of the police to the

12     military wherever the military is.

13             I'm not sure I understand fully the -- the difference of this

14     point of contention.  I would like the parties to clarify.

15             MS. KORNER:  Does Your Honour want to hear from me or

16     Mr. Cvijetic on this?

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Both of you.

18             MS. KORNER:  I'll come around so that I can hopefully ...

19             Your Honours, as I understand the Defence case, and it's one of

20     the problems -- of course, and it wasn't spelled out anywhere before this

21     case started, but it has been emerging through --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please speak into the

23     microphone.

24             MS. KORNER:  I'll come forward, Your Honours.

25             As has been put to the witnesses is that if the military are

Page 9961

 1     stationed in an area, regardless of whether it is a front line, in other

 2     words there is actual fighting going on of any sort, the police are

 3     resubordinated to the military.  If I'm wrong, then I have no doubt that

 4     Defence counsel will correct me.

 5             In other words, they are obliged to follow the orders issued by

 6     the military, completely overriding their own chain of command within the

 7     police.  That is, as I understand it, the Defence.

 8             And that's where --

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Regardless of any combat taking place in the

10     area?

11             MS. KORNER:  Exactly.  That is -- that is my understanding of the

12     Defence case as it has been put.  Regardless of whether there is combat

13     going on, actual fighting between opposing forces, once the military is

14     in an area, the police line of authority is subordinated to the military.

15     And that is where the major disagreement comes.

16             We say the only times that the police are resubordinated to the

17     military - and we say that's what the evidence shows, regardless of

18     what's being put by the documentation - is in times of actual combat,

19     fighting, where police units are taken along -- up to the military.

20             And if I'm wrong on that, then I think the Defence out to correct

21     this now.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic or Mr. Zecevic, would either one of

23     you wish to reply.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the law is clear on

25     this.  First, under international conventions and regulations, after the

Page 9962

 1     state of -- imminent threat of war or the state of war have been

 2     proclaimed, the entirety territory of Republika Srpska has become a

 3     combat zone.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  He should explain what the position is, but he

 5     is giving evidence.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm trying to state my position,

 8     but I'm being interrupted.

 9             My position is that the entire Republika Srpska was a combat

10     zone.  That means that all police officers who get orders to carry out a

11     military task from a military commander in any part of the territory of

12     the RS are resubordinated to the military command.  That is our position.

13     And that's in accordance with the law and the conventions.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  And in addition to what my learned friend said,

15     especially in light of the fact of the imminent state of war which was

16     declared, mid-of April and confirmed on 12th of May, 1992, at the

17     Assembly session in Banja Luka.

18             Thank you.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But can I just offer a third interpretation here.

20     I have not discussed this with my colleagues, so I'm speaking clearly and

21     truly and only on my own behalf now, and that is that it was my

22     understanding that resubordination of -- of police forces to the armed

23     force could take place upon a request from the army; but short of any

24     such request, the police continued its activities.  Whether or not there

25     was combat activities in the area, if the army didn't request

Page 9963

 1     re-enforcement by police forces, then there was no resubordination.

 2             And as I understand it, there were sometimes situations in which

 3     the army was strong enough and didn't need it, didn't need support from

 4     the police and therefore didn't ask for it.  And where the police wasn't

 5     asked to resubordinate any of its forces, the police force remained

 6     intact in the area.

 7             Is this misunderstood?  And if it is, then I would wish to have

 8     it clarified right away.

 9             Hold on a minute.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, may I just say, the witness, of course,

12     is sitting here.  I don't know whether this is going to impact on

13     cross-examination, but he ought to take his earphones off.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Petrovic --

15             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             JUDGE HARHOFF: -- would you be good enough to take your earphones

17     off.

18             MS. KORNER:  No, but -- see, that wouldn't help.  Of course,

19     Mr. Cvijetic is speaking in the native language of the witness.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Speak in English.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, I think that both parties have made

24     their case -- have stated their case, and maybe this is not the correct

25     moment to go in any further detail with this matter.

Page 9964

 1             So I suggest that we proceed.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  If I may return to Mr. Demirdjian's two points.

 3             The second, as I recall it, in terms of the quality, for want of

 4     a better word, of the material on which the Defence is relying, to repeat

 5     what I would have said earlier, Mr. Zecevic, Mr. Cvijetic, can only deal

 6     with what they have.  And there was a photocopy of some unknown --

 7     the -- that may, at the end of the day, go to what weight would be

 8     attached to it because of the -- of any doubt that may be cast on its

 9     authenticity.

10             So the -- so that second point is not one that would cause --

11     that should cause any pause in terms of the ability of the Defence to

12     make use of this.

13             As for the first point, of course, it must necessarily follow

14     that until the documents are interpreted -- are translated so that the

15     Prosecution can formally state their position, then they must remain

16     marked for identification.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I -- I'm sorry to keep coming back

18     to this, but it is of some importance.  For reasons I needn't trouble

19     Your Honours with, we've given certain information to the Defence about

20     one of their documents.  Your Honours, our concern is this:  This is --

21     and I know Your Honours - His Honour Judge Harhoff doesn't like it

22     much - but it's a document case.  Most of our -- our evidence is -- is

23     documentary.  It's therefore important that if documents come into

24     evidence, either side is able, as far as is possible, to establish the

25     provenance of the document.

Page 9965

 1             What is happening here -- Mr. Zecevic, of course, is perfectly

 2     entitled to ask any time for us to show where our documents come from,

 3     and we're always prepared to do that.  Most of the documents have been

 4     used in other cases, so it hasn't arisen.  Some of the documents that are

 5     appearing now have never appeared before in any other case.  It's vital,

 6     we would submit to Your Honours, that the Defence make proper inquiries

 7     of their investigator or of the centre for Serbian war crime -- for

 8     investigation into war crimes against Serbs or for -- from -- from the

 9     MUP as to what the original of a document is.

10             At the moment, they cannot tell us.

11             JUDGE HALL:  In so far as they could.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

13             JUDGE HALL:  The --

14             MS. KORNER:  But they're not telling us, Your Honour.  They're

15     simply saying, My investigator got it.  And they have a duty, we would

16     submit -- or if it comes from the war crimes centre, to say, if this is

17     clearly as it is, three pages from a book, what is the original book, and

18     can we see the rest of it.  And they're not doing that.  And,

19     Your Honours, we say that's why we're objecting, at the moment, to these

20     documents being anything other than marked for identification, whether or

21     not they've got translations.

22             JUDGE HALL:  I follow that, Ms. Korner.  The -- I confess that

23     before the -- I became involved in this matter, the idea of items,

24     quote/unquote, falling off the back of a truck was limited to a certain

25     type of criminal case.  But it appears that many of the documents fall in

Page 9966

 1     that category, and we just have to see where we go.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, can I -- I have said this over

 3     and over again, and -- but that's my objection at the moment to -- to

 4     some of these documents.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but I

 6     really have to respond to this.

 7             Your Honour, I think that the comments from the Prosecution are,

 8     to put it mildly, unfair.  The Prosecution is well aware that the sources

 9     we draw upon in preparing our Defence and the sources where we get the

10     documents are very limited.  I have neither the possibility or authority

11     or staff, nor do any of other -- of the other members of the Defence

12     team, to approach an official agency and ask them about the source of a

13     document.

14             I approached an official agency which has the authority to

15     provide me with documents.  I receive documents from this agency and rely

16     upon them as authentic documents.  It is, of course, up to me to decide

17     whether I'm going use them and whether they support my case or not, but

18     any investigation that would go further than that is something that I

19     have neither the intention nor the power of doing.

20             If Madam Korner finds the sources of the documents that we have

21     suspicious and she has the list of all these sources, let her approach

22     the relevant official agencies and inquire after the sources.  This is

23     absolutely not the task of the Defence.  And I'm absolutely opposed to

24     this.

25             Specifically, Your Honour, most of the documents we have come

Page 9967

 1     from the Prosecution, including the document that Madam Korner referred

 2     to herself a moment ago.  This is a document we received from the

 3     Prosecution.  The document that she provided us with yesterday with

 4     comments on them already has an MFI number.

 5             We are now in a situation where I am supposed to be suspicious

 6     even of the documents I receive from the Prosecution.  If this is the

 7     case, Your Honour, then we will be going through such situations on a

 8     daily basis.  Every time a document is produced by either of the parties,

 9     we will have to inquire after the origin of the document, and this will

10     lead us nowhere.

11             I really did not have reason to suspect that all these documents

12     that the Prosecution obtained were indeed documents that could be relied

13     upon, but the same is true of the Defence.  The Defence does not have the

14     resources, possibilities, or staff to verify the authenticity of these

15     documents or their sources.  If this should be done, however, then we

16     will have to go back to the beginning of the case.

17             MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... submission our

18     learned friend Mr. Zecevic.

19             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, but -- I know this is distracting from

20     where we ought to be going, but, Your Honours, it's not incumbent upon

21     the Prosecution to do the investigations.  It's the Defence who are

22     inviting Your Honours to rely on the truth and accuracy and provenance of

23     these documents.  It is their obligation to make sure that that is

24     catered for if we raise a query.  Now, most time, we don't; but every now

25     and again, we do.  And this particular book is one of them.  And I'm not

Page 9968

 1     going to go into the document Mr. Zecevic has referred to.  It's not one

 2     of our documents.  It does bear a Prosecution number because by - I won't

 3     say by mistake - but because it was referred to by the Prosecution by

 4     the -- I'm sorry, by the Defence and didn't get a number.  We had it

 5     marked for identification.  But, Your Honours, that's a separate matter

 6     which may need further discussion.

 7             But as the general principle of the matter, if the Defence want

 8     documents admitted and the Prosecution raise a query, it is their

 9     obligation to be able to provide the information as to the actual source

10     and whether or not it is authentic.  Because they're the people that are

11     asking you to rely on the documents.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             To bring this matter to an end, it seems to me that - and I speak

14     entirely for myself - that the -- what I understand the position of the

15     Defence now to be is that they have the certificate - my word - of the

16     cabinet of the -- of the -- of the country -- of the city of origin of

17     this, that that is as far as they can reasonably be expected to go.

18             So -- sorry.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             JUDGE HALL:  So everything is marked for identification --

22     remains marked for identification at this point.

23             Please continue with your cross-examination, Mr. Cvijetic.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up -- or can we call

25     up the next document which is 1D00-0343.

Page 9969

 1        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, this is yet another order from Colonel Lisica where

 2     elements of the police force are sought to be resubordinated.

 3     One hundred policemen from the Doboj force are being requested.

 4             Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   They are issued with a combat assignment.  And under 3 it is

 7     stated he shall hold a person responsible for this order, the chief,

 8     Andrija Bjelosevic, and you, yourself, sir.

 9             Do you know of this order?

10        A.   Well, I see it now.

11        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, what would happen if you and Mr. Bjelosevic simply

12     disregarded the order or refused to implement it?  What would happen?

13        A.   We would be arrested.

14        Q.   Who would arrest you?

15        A.   The military police of Colonel Lisica.

16        Q.   Let us recall the Criminal Code, pursuant to which refusal to

17     carry out a military order in a state of a declared imminent threat of

18     war is a serious offence, is it not?

19        A.   Well, knowing Colonel Lisica as I do, whatever the law said, we

20     would end up in prison.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Sir, since this order refers,

22     among others, also to the witness present here, in accordance with the

23     earlier position you stated, can we have this document marked for

24     identification.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

Page 9970

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D266, marked for identification,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, the last document of the batch, which I want to use

 5     merely to confirm what you said about the partial resubordination of the

 6     police force.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] This is document 1D00-0332.

 8        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, in this order, Colonel Lisica dispatches a unit of

 9     the Doboj police to a battle-field in the area of another municipality,

10     i.e., Derventa.  Please have a look at this.  And they are to join the

11     Bosanski Brod Battalion.

12             Can you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Under item 4, again, the responsibility for the implementation of

15     order lies with the centre and the public security

16     station [as interpreted].

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   I do.

19        Q.   So from one zone, the zone of Doboj, this unit is dispatched to

20     another zone, wherever needed, wherever they're needed to carry out

21     military assignments.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to move for

25     this document to be MFI'd for the very same reasons as with the previous

Page 9971

 1     one.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Despite the -- having trod this well-worn path now,

 3     Mr. Cvijetic, I'm wholly unable to appreciate how this, in any way,

 4     assists the issue.  Isn't this just another piece of paper that we're

 5     adding to the pile?  I ...

 6             This particular document really seems, to me, to be beyond the

 7     pale.  If you could show me how this falls in the same category as the

 8     previous documents that we marked for identification ...

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, pursuant to orders

10     by the military commander, a battalion is established attached to

11     Bosanski Brod.  Bosanski Brod is a municipality that's outside of the

12     Doboj area.  Police is being sent there to carry out military

13     assignments.  All this as a part of a claim concerning a combat zone.

14     And what we are claiming is that the Republika Srpska immediately after

15     the proclamation of immediate threat of war has become a combat zone in

16     its totality.  And military organs were able to send police units to

17     carry out military combat assignments in any part of Republika Srpska.

18     This order had to be obeyed, and the sanctions, if it wouldn't be, were

19     very strict.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  So marked for identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1D267, marked for identification,

22     Your Honours.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honour, one item for the transcript.  I

24     don't know if this is a problem with translation, but page 66, line 2, is

25     recorded that Mr. Cvijetic said:

Page 9972

 1             "Under item 4, again, the responsibility for the implementation

 2     of the order lies with the centre and the public security station."

 3             Now, the document at item 4 does not say "public security

 4     station."  From the English translation that I have in front of me, it

 5     says "the chief of Doboj region, public security service."

 6             I don't know if there is a problem with either translations.

 7     Maybe it can be clarified.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, perhaps -- I don't -- I don't myself

 9     see the difference, the mere change of -- difference between "service"

10     and "station."  But to the extent that it may be relevant, perhaps

11     Mr. Cvijetic may wish to have the witness speak -- speak to this.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's very simply, Your Honours.

13     The colonel used an improbable word where he is using -- or formula where

14     he is implying both the service and the stations.  He is saying

15     Mr. Bjelosevic, who is chief of public security service, although

16     Mr. Bjelosevic was chief of centre.  And that got me wrong-tracked.  I do

17     agree with the Prosecutor.  He was referring to the centre only, but it

18     was typed wrongly.

19             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ...

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, before I show you some further orders that -- that

22     had been sent from the CSB Doboj to you by chief of centre,

23     Andrija Bjelosevic, and before we go through the reports drafted by the

24     inspectors and the persons sent from the Ministry of Interior for the

25     purpose of verifying the situation in the Doboj centre and station, I

Page 9973

 1     would like to go, rather quickly, through a few orders by the minister of

 2     the interior so that we would be able to understand the requests that

 3     were sent and the orders aimed at removing the shortcomings in the area

 4     covered by the CSB.

 5             Thus --

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have, please,

 7     document 1D76.

 8        Q.   Please read this order.  You've been asked already about this

 9     meeting held on the 11th of July in Belgrade.  You told us, if I'm not

10     mistaken, that you don't know anything about it.

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   After the meeting or the collegium, the minister, based on

13     information received from the ground, drafted this order asking for

14     information concerning the activities of paramilitary formations.

15             You can find that under small (a).

16             Then under (b), data and information regarding police involvement

17     in combat operations.

18             We have covered this second topic extensively today.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask to move to the

20     following page in both versions, please.

21        Q.   Furthermore, information related to prevention and detection of

22     crimes.

23             Then information concerning collection camps.

24             Then operation of military judiciary authorities, and so forth.

25             I assume you're not familiar with this order?

Page 9974

 1        A.   I don't remember it.

 2        Q.   But you could have found out about the assignments stated in this

 3     order only after the members of the Ministry of Interior managed to

 4     physically enter the place where they were stored.  You were shown the

 5     transcripts yesterday by the Prosecutor.  Do you remember that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I would like to show to you another order by the minister.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 1D49.

 9        Q.   As you can see, this order is dated 23rd of October.

10             In item number 1, the minister orders all active-duty police

11     members to withdraw from combat operations and the reserve police force

12     members to be made available.

13             Can you see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Item number 2 will later on be of interest to us.

16             The minister is here ordering that the number of the reserve

17     police force members be reduced and that it should be 1:2 ratio.

18             Can you see that?

19             And then the excess, to call it like that, of reserve police

20     members to be put at the disposal of the VRS?

21        A.   I can see that.

22        Q.   In second paragraph of item number 2, the minister even

23     authorises chiefs to inform the military commands that they are no longer

24     obliged to provide police force members for participation in combat

25     operations, except in municipalities which are directly affected by

Page 9975

 1     combat activities.

 2             Can you see that in the second paragraph?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Later we'll be discussing the documents that did reach you, where

 7     you were asked to reduce the number of reserve police members.  Do you

 8     remember receiving such documents?

 9        A.   I think so.

10        Q.   Let me show you another order by the minister.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D76.  176.

12             I don't know whether this is the document.  No, this is an

13     earlier document.  Yes, this one.

14        Q.   This order dated 27th of July, 1992, in item number 1, the

15     minister asks for the optimal number of members of security services to

16     be determined based on the criteria prescribed by the Law on

17     Internal Affairs and the rules mentioned in the document.

18             And in item number 2, he recalls an earlier order of his, asking

19     for all those who have committed crimes and/or are criminal

20     investigations instigated against them to be removed from the force.

21             Can you see that?

22        A.   [No verbal response]

23        Q.   Three, then there is discussion about this surplus of police

24     forces to be put at the disposal of the army.

25             And under 4, he is asking for all special units formed during the

Page 9976

 1     war in areas of Security Services Centres to be disbanded and placed

 2     under the command of the Army of the Serbian Republic?

 3             Can you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   In this same item, we can see that a detachment of the ministry

 6     police was established in the centre and that all those interested and

 7     all those who meet the criteria may apply for membership in the

 8     organisation.

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   On the following page --

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the following page,

13     please.

14        Q.   Item 7, the minister orders that all paramilitary formations

15     should be removed from the areas that are not under the control of the

16     Army of the Serbian Republic.

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in the subsequent items, he reiterates his positions about

20     the modes of police work.

21             Can you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   This order reached you, again, indirectly, through orders issued

24     by the chief of the CSB and through the persons from the ministry who

25     came to carry out the control.  I assume you remember some of these

Page 9977

 1     elements?

 2        A.   We received this order through the chief of the centre.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I'll show you another order.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D55.

 5        Q.   This order is something whereby the minister prescribes the

 6     detention of holding people in custody of three days.  He is stating that

 7     this must be done exclusively within the regulation prescribed, and

 8     prohibits any misuse.  Also, describing how the premises where these

 9     people would be detained should look like.  It's under 1.

10             You can see that, don't you -- can't you?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Two, the security of collection centres shall be the direct

13     responsibility of the Serbian army, and if they do not have enough men

14     for these duty, the members of reserve police should be engaged.

15             Can you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, we've been through just -- several of these orders

18     with the intention of making it easier to understand some of the

19     documents from your areas and the reasons of their adoption.

20             I would like to show you now a document from your area, issued by

21     your station.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 1D03-3159.

23             I'm waiting for the English version.  Is this document maybe

24     still waiting for the translation?  Oh, there is a translation.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 9978

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honours?

 3             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ...

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, on page 1, I think I see your signature.  There's

 6     your name.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Is it your signature?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Is it your document?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Let us comment on it.  You are referring to a document you

13     received from the CSB on the 6th of October, 1992.  Can you see it?  And

14     you are requested that you should see to it that the reserve police

15     stations should start functioning, and you informed the centre that did

16     you so.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Let us move on to the following page to see how you did it.

19             Mr. Petrovic, you were saying yesterday that in the case of war

20     or in imminent threat of war, reserve police stations are established in

21     some parts of the municipality, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   That was -- there were provisions to that effect in military

24     rules and regulations and police rules and regulations, even before the

25     war, right?

Page 9979

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And that -- such provisions were also to be found in the rules

 3     and regulations of the Republika Srpska, right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Yesterday you explained that Major Stankovic turned all these

 6     stations into detachments to be able to use them for military purposes.

 7     Did I understand your explanation that you gave yesterday correctly?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You will agree with me when I say, won't you, that this

10     detrimentally affected the organisation of the MUP, the way it was

11     envisaged by the rules and regulations; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This was noticed on the occasion of a check carried out by the

14     MUP, and you received the task to adapt the actual situation to the law.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And it follows from this document that you actually did that,

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   This document of yours basically says that the organisation

20     established by Major Stankovic, that is, the existence of detachments,

21     should cease to exist and that the orders should go from the CSB, in

22     accordance with the existing rules and regulations, right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that there

Page 9980

 1     can be no doubt about this.  This is a document which emanates from the

 2     witness, and I believe it can be admitted into evidence.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I do have one comment in relation

 6     to Mr. Cvijetic's last sentence.  Page 75, line 2, says that this

 7     document says that the organisation established by Major Stankovic, that

 8     is, the existence of detachments, should cease to exist.

 9             Although this could be clarified by the witness, I don't agree

10     that the document says that.  The document only establishes the reserve

11     police stations.

12             So just for the interpretation of this document ...

13             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I don't know that we need become entangled in

14     that because the document says what it says.  And no doubt at the end of

15     the exercise submissions and arguments will be made as to what the effect

16     of the contents of the document.  So the witness's -- what counsel puts

17     to a witness about what a document says is of minimal use in that regard.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  So the document will be Exhibit 1D268,

19     Your Honours.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             I will now move on to the following document, which is 1D01-0341.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Before you move on, Mr. Cvijetic.  Returning to

23     Mr. Demirdjian's intervention, I suppose I should add to what I would

24     have said, that it is entirely possible and proper for counsel to put to

25     a witness what his understanding of the document was, even if it appears

Page 9981

 1     to be at variance with what was on the face of document, especially where

 2     in this case the witness would have himself acted on the basis of his

 3     understanding, which doesn't seem to have arisen here.  But I just wanted

 4     to modify and clarify my general observation earlier.

 5             Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  That

 7     would have been my remark, but I didn't have time to reply to the

 8     Prosecutor.

 9        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, this is a document from November 1992.  It is

10     signed by the chief of the centre, Andrija Bjelosevic, and other centre

11     staff with their respective positions indicated below.  And in the

12     introduction we see that it's an -- it's an activity plan of the

13     department for police duties.

14             Can you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   What I'm interested in is item 1.  It says that it must be

17     established whether or not in organisational units of the centre there

18     are members of the reserve police force who have not served in the

19     military or who have a criminal file, except for crimes related to

20     traffic safety and so on.

21             Mr. Petrovic, this reminds you of one of those orders of the

22     minister of the interior where he demands that it must be established

23     whether or not some persons committed crimes, right?

24        A.   Well, yes, I guess so.  The centre probably was acting pursuant

25     to orders from the minister.

Page 9982

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn to the following

 2     page, please.

 3        Q.   Here the inspector states that he did the job in November.  And

 4     in paragraph 2 he says that he established the number of reserve police

 5     force members who had -- have not served in the military, as well as the

 6     number of those convicted of crimes which makes them not eligible for

 7     working for the Ministry of Interior.

 8             Can you see that in paragraph 2?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   On page 3, there's a list of these persons.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show page 3.

12        Q.   In the first section, there are those convicted of -- for crimes.

13     And there are even references to the articles of the relevant laws and

14     their verdicts.  And in the latter section, there is a list of those who

15     have not served in the military.

16             Mr. Petrovic, this plan of work and these conclusions regarding

17     the state of affairs, were they drafted in keeping with the instructions

18     given by the minister of the interior?

19        A.   I believe so.

20        Q.   In other words, you mean that these orders were carried out?

21        A.   Yes, I think so.

22        Q.   Very well.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this may be a

24     convenient time to adjourn.  Although, I have a document now which I

25     might be able to finish in ten minutes.  But I am in your hands,

Page 9983

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Ms. Korner, you have something to say on this

 3     point?

 4             MS. KORNER:  Only if Your Honours are going to - I just wanted to

 5     mention - come back to adjudicated facts for a moment.  I thought -- I

 6     didn't realise Your Honours were still considering Mr. Cvijetic's offer

 7     to stop now.

 8             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... said it would take

 9     about ten minutes --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Inasmuch as he says it would take about ten minutes

12     to open on this new document, perhaps it would be advisable to take the

13     adjournment now.  And then we can deal with your point.

14             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

15             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.

18             Mr. Petrovic, we are to take the adjournment for today.  Your

19     cross-examination will continue tomorrow morning.  We continue at 9.00 in

20     this courtroom.

21             The Court will not adjourn immediately.  We have an

22     administrative matter with -- housekeeping matter with which to deal.  So

23     the usher will now escort you from the courtroom.  And I remind you what

24     I said yesterday about not discussing the case.  Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 9984

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honours, I am a bit

 3     concerned -- and now that Judge Delvoie has seised the adjudicated facts

 4     as they are with such vigor, because we did raise it on the 12th of June,

 5     I have been reminded by Mr. Smith that during the Status Conference then

 6     I said that we're a bit concerned about the suggestion that seems to be

 7     happening at the moment that there is going to be a challenge to the

 8     adjudicated facts which have already been ruled on and which the

 9     Trial Chamber has accepted - or so we thought at the time, in

10     parentheses.  And in the light of the Lukic case, if there is to be such

11     a challenge, perhaps that is something that ought to be indicated in the

12     briefs submitted by the Defence so that we all know where we are.

13             And Judge Harhoff said I would assume that to be raised by the

14     Defence teams.

15             Now, Your Honours, the reality is, like so many other things, it

16     sort of disappeared into the general morass.  But we would invite

17     Your Honours, really, to make an order that such adjudicated facts as we

18     have, if they are to be challenged, then we really ought to be told in

19     writing by the Defence as soon as possible so that we know exactly where

20     we are, everybody now knows what their case is.  So we would really

21     invite Your Honours to do that.

22             That's the first thing.

23             The second thing, can I deal --

24             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  For my own edification, Ms. Korner, in

25     previous cases has such a requirement been imposed on the side

Page 9985

 1     challenging adjudicated facts?

 2             MS. KORNER:  I don't -- Your Honours, to be quite honest, I don't

 3     know.  And -- but I think the first time that it actually emerged as an

 4     issue was in the Lukic case, which finished, I think, shortly before or

 5     after this case had already begun.

 6             So that -- Your Honours, to answer, I don't if that -- ever

 7     that's -- that's happened before, but I don't equally know whether once

 8     an adjudicated fact has been granted there's been this kind of challenge.

 9             So that's -- I mean, so the simple is, I don't know, but I can

10     find out quite easily.

11             JUDGE HALL:  You had a second point.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes, second point is simply on timing, Your Honour.

13     Perhaps we could inquire of Mr. Cvijetic how much longer he is going to

14     be, because on Monday we have a journalist testifying.  He has just

15     confirmed that.  And his work schedule is such that he literally needs to

16     start on Monday.  And then we have a videolink witness on Wednesday, in

17     any event, of next week.  So I would quite like to know, because we've

18     got another potentially two witnesses this week, how much longer

19     Mr. Cvijetic is going to be.

20             And then Mr. Pantelic or Mr. Krgovic.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I

22     need one more session to finish with this witness.

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, I don't think that we have any

24     cross-examination for this witness.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

Page 9986

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Would you like -- Your Honours, you would like me

 2     to answer the first point by Ms. Korner at this point or should I do that

 3     tomorrow?

 4             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Well, if you are able to speak to it briefly now,

 7     but we would understand that you would like to think about it.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I can comment briefly on it, but if you want

 9     me to give you a bit complexed submission on this, I would do that,

10     rather, tomorrow morning, if possible.

11             JUDGE HALL:  I wouldn't have used the word "complex," myself; but

12     I prefer to use the word "considered," because I appreciate that this is

13     something that you would not have been alerted to beforehand and would be

14     more useful if you have the opportunity to reflect on it for a few hours

15     before you assist us with your suggestions in this regard.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.  I understand.  And it is my

17     English, because I used the word "complex," Your Honours, "considered" is

18     a very appropriate word which I wanted to say.

19             Thank you very much.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Just for the record, Your Honours.  The position

21     of Zupljanin Defence regarding adjudicated facts is the following:  We

22     are challenging every single adjudicated fact.  End of story.  Just for

23     the record.  We don't want to make any other submission.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to make the

Page 9987

 1     Prosecutor's life easier, with regard to the witness that is about to

 2     come, we are sure to challenge each and every adjudicated fact from

 3     that -- from that testimony and the statement.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  And so our path --

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  Teslic.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  And so our path is well laid out for us.

 7             Thank you.  We now rise until tomorrow morning.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

10                           May, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.