1 Monday, 21 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The Accused Zupljanin not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we, first of all, take the appearances, please.
12 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Belinda Pidwell, Tom Hannis, and Crispian Smith for the
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
16 Slobodan Zecevic, Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Eugene O'Sullivan
17 appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
19 For Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic.
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic, we observe that your client is not
21 present this morning.
22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I was informed that he filed his waiver due
23 to some religious ceremony which -- due to be held this morning. But, of
24 course, I will -- I will check with the Registry if -- if they properly
25 informed the Trial Chamber.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. I understand the Registry hasn't yet
3 received the waiver, but we assume it's in process.
4 MR. PANTELIC: I assume too, and I will get back to the
5 Trial Chamber as soon as I check the situation.
6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.
7 Yes, Ms. Pidwell.
8 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, unfortunately, we're unable to start
9 the witness, who is currently scheduled to commence at 9.00, until later
10 on this morning. And we're seeking the Court's indulgence in this
11 regard. He only arrived over the weekend and was scheduled to be proofed
12 by the OTP yesterday. The interpreter called in sick on Sunday morning,
13 and we were unable to find a replacement interpreter during the course of
14 the day. The witness did spend the day listening to his prior testimony,
15 and we anticipate that we only need one hour with him this morning in
16 order to finalise his proofing. He is here, and the lawyer who is
17 leading him is seeing him now. And so we're asking for your indulgence
18 to adjourn and recommence at 11.00 this morning because of those
20 We've consulted the Defence on this.
21 JUDGE HALL: Do counsel for the Defence have any comments or
22 observations on the application by the Prosecution?
23 MR. ZECEVIC: We don't oppose, Your Honours. We understand the
24 situation, as -- as explained by Ms. Pidwell. There's nothing we can do
1 MS. PIDWELL: We do anticipate that we will be finished with this
2 witness today. He is the only witness we have today because of the
3 last-minute changes towards -- at the end of last week when the videolink
4 witness was cancelled. And, accordingly, we only have one hour in chief
5 with him; the Defence have approximately an hour, maybe an hour and a
6 half. So we do anticipate we will be finished with the witness today.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So we adjourn, to resume at 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 9.08 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, may the record -- [French on
11 English Channel] ... show that Ms. Tatjana Savic joined the Stanisic
12 Defence. Thank you.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 And what -- [Microphone not activated] ... Mr. Zecevic, the
15 witness who is scheduled to begin this morning, could you alert me as to
16 how much time the Defence has asked for.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: We estimated our cross-examination, I believe,
18 one -- one and a -- one session or one hour. I'm not sure at this
19 moment, but I can check, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... I just need an idea.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe it was one hour.
22 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... Thank you.
23 And, Mr. Pantelic?
24 MR. PANTELIC: Our estimation was in general because this witness
25 is not related to our municipalities; but, if any, 15 minutes.
1 JUDGE HALL: Okay.
2 MR. PANTELIC: But, to be sure, maybe -- maybe we shouldn't --
3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
4 MR. PANTELIC: -- not have any cross-examination.
5 And, Your Honours, I would like just to inform you that, from
6 UNDU and Registry, a waiver of my client was distributed, so everything
7 is in order now.
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you. We saw it.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HALL: For the record, is there a change in the appearances
13 for the Prosecution today from what we had at 9.00 this morning?
14 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, Your Honour. There is a change. This is
15 Gerard Dobbyn for the Office of the Prosecutor, along with Tom Hannis and
16 Crispian Smith. Good morning, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 Yes, please have the witness make the solemn declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: SULEJMAN CRNCALO
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE HALL: You may be seated, sir.
24 I trust that you can hear me.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
1 JUDGE HALL: Would you begin by telling us your name, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Sulejman Crncalo.
3 JUDGE HALL: And what is your date of birth, and what is your
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the
6 15th February 1945. I'm an ethnic Bosniak.
7 JUDGE HALL: And what is your profession?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was first a lathe operator. And
9 later, I was a traffic technician.
10 JUDGE HALL: Have you testified previously before this Tribunal
11 or before any of the courts in the former Yugoslavia in relation to
12 matters arising of what happened there in the late -- in the early 1990s
13 and moving forward?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I testified here before,
16 JUDGE HALL: Well, in that case, I need only remind you of the
17 procedure of the Tribunal, which is -- which it has in common with most
18 courts; that is, that in these proceedings, your testimony would be led
19 by the side calling you - in this case, the Prosecution - who has asked
20 for a total of about an hour and a quarter for their
22 And counsel for each of the accused would have a right to
23 cross-examine. Counsel for the accused Mr. Stanisic has indicated they
24 would only spend about an hour. And counsel for the second accused
25 Mr. Zupljanin has indicated that if they cross-examine at all, it would
1 only be about 15 minutes.
2 So, all in all, it is expected that your testimony would be
3 completed before the Tribunal takes its adjournment for the day at 1.45.
4 And the -- our time is a little irregular today, in that we are starting
5 a little later than we thought; but notwithstanding that, as I said, it
6 is still expected that your testimony will be completed.
7 We will take one break between now and 1.45, so your testimony
8 would not be continuous. But if, for any reason, you need to the
9 Tribunal to -- if you need to take a break, you can indicate that and we
10 will accommodate you.
11 And with that, I would invite Mr. Dobbyn to begin his
13 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Examination by Mr. Dobbyn:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Crncalo.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. Mr. Crncalo, did you testify in the Krajisnik case on the
18 2nd and 3rd of September, 2004?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Since arriving here in The Hague, have you had an opportunity to
21 listen to that testimony from the Krajisnik case?
22 A. You mean when I came this time? I did.
23 Q. Was the recording you listened to an accurate record of your
24 testimony in that case?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And is the information that was contained in that testimony in
2 the Krajisnik case the same as you would give if testifying in full
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, at this time I would like to tender the
7 witness's 92 ter testimony an associated exhibits. And they have
8 65 ter numbers 10390.01 to 10390.04.
9 JUDGE HALL: I believe, as is our practice, your application
10 to -- the decision on the application is -- is deferred to the end of the
11 testimony. But your application is noted for the record.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 At this time, with the Court's leave, I would like to read a very
15 brief summary of his testimony in the Krajisnik case.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
17 MR. DOBBYN: Mr. Crncalo is a Bosnian Muslim who lived and worked
18 in Pale from 1978 until he was expelled on the 2nd of July, 1992. His
19 92 ter testimony provides an overview of the persecution and forced
20 transfer of Muslims in Pale in the period from late 1991 until July 1992.
21 The Bosnian Serb forces, including the police, participated in
22 this campaign of persecution and forcible transfer. Throughout this
23 period, Mr. Crncalo and other Muslim representatives held meetings with
24 Serb officials, including the chief of police Malko Koroman, in an effort
25 to ease the conditions under which the non-Serbs in Pale were existing.
1 A member of the Bosnian Serb Presidency, Nikola Koljevic,
2 attended one of these meetings. Rather than addressing their concerns,
3 they were told by Mr. Koljevic that regardless of what they, the Muslims,
4 wanted, the Serbs did not want Muslims living in Pale. Bosnian Serb
5 forces randomly arrested non-Serbs in Pale. Mr. Crncalo himself was
6 arrested, taken to the SJB building, and beaten before being released
7 later the same day. Other Muslims were also arbitrarily detained, and
8 some were killed. Finally, Mr. Crncalo was part of a convoy of non-Serbs
9 expelled from Pale on the 2nd of July, 1992.
10 That concludes the summary, Your Honours.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Crncalo, I'd like to ask you some questions that just
12 clarify and expand on some of the events that you described in your
13 Krajisnik testimony.
14 And, first, I'd like to turn to your detention on the
15 3rd of March, 1992. And in your prior testimony in Krajisnik you
16 described being arrested by three reserve policemen on that date.
17 MR. DOBBYN: And this is at transcript page 5309 of his
18 92 ter package.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Crncalo, at the time that you were arrested outside your
20 house, were you told by these reserve policemen why you were being
22 A. They didn't tell me anything. Two of them, from the sides,
23 squatted on their knees on the ground, trained guns at me, and another
24 one approached me, pushed me into the car, and they took me to the police
1 Q. And you described that when you were taken to the police station,
2 you were interrogated by a police inspector named Hrsum.
3 Now, when this police inspector interrogated you, what questions
4 did he ask you?
5 A. He asked me where I was going and who had sent me. He asked me
6 the same question several times, and I kept giving the same answer. I
7 wasn't going anywhere. Nobody had sent me. I was just standing outside
8 my house. And as he was asking me the same question, he started beating
9 me; first, slapping and punching. I tried to defend myself by raising my
10 hands to my face. But then he took a truncheon or a wooden club, a bit
11 like a baseball bat, and started beating me with that.
12 And in the meantime, he was calling policemen from the
13 neighbouring room to take me away and kill me. However, nobody came and
14 he continued to beat me. Then he called out to the policemen to take me
15 to Mount Jahorina to kill me. And he called the police five times, but
16 none of them showed up to take me. And ultimately somebody in civilian
17 clothes came, pushed away this thug who was beating me, and told me that
18 I won't be beaten anymore.
19 My pack of cigarettes was on the table. The thug took them, lit
20 one cigarette, and said, Whose cigarettes are these? The first time I
21 didn't answer. The second time I said, They're mine. This man was
22 Hrsum. And he said, Nobody must touch these. Then he -- they took me
23 away. And then the same three policemen who arrested me and handcuffed
24 me came to bring my neighbour this time, Munib Kadiric, into the same
1 And in the mean time, Hrsum had forced me to get out into the
2 hallway. Inside remained Munib Kadiric. And I hear from the hallway the
3 tables and chairs were being moved and squeaking. I heard blows. And I
4 can't tell you exactly how long it was before Malko Koroman, the chief of
5 police, came through the door. We knew each other from before. He asked
6 me, What are you doing here? And I said, Ask your policemen. He said,
7 Come inside this room. And he was showing the same room where Hrsum had
8 interrogated and beaten me. I said, I was told not to get in anymore;
9 they just forced me out of there. And Koroman insisted.
10 So I got into that room, and Munib Kadiric and I found ourselves
11 together with Malko Koroman. Malko told me to sit down, and he asked me
12 and my neighbour, Where were you arrested? I said, Outside my house.
13 And Munib said the same. And then he says, motioning to his rifle and
14 our rifles on the table, and he says - using the profanity; I don't want
15 to mention it - he says, If any of my men get killed, I will raze your
16 neighbourhood to the ground. And I tell him, Look, let's find a peaceful
17 way to live side by side like we did before. And we also asked that the
18 police be made mixed again, that the Muslim policemen be I allowed to
19 join the force again to serve together. And he says, Until a Serb
20 policeman gets to serve on the force in Stari Grad, Muslims won't be
21 allowed to serve in Pale. And then he told us to go home. It was around
22 5.30 in the morning.
23 Q. If I could just ask you a couple of questions about what you've
24 spoken about so far.
25 When you were being beaten by this inspector Hrsum, were your
1 hands free?
2 A. No, I was handcuffed.
3 Q. And how long did this beating last?
4 A. I was brought to the police station around 10.30 in the evening;
5 in other words, 2230. My neighbour Munib Kadiric could have been brought
6 about three hours later. That means that I was beaten for about three
7 hours, was it?
8 Q. Could you describe what injuries, if any, you suffered, as a
9 result of this beating.
10 A. I had internal hemorrhages on the back. My face was bruised and
11 swollen from the blows. That subsided after three days. But there were
12 no lacerations.
13 Q. When you spoke to Malko Koroman immediately after being beaten,
14 did he ask you about your injuries?
15 A. No, he didn't ask me anything.
16 Q. Did he give you any indication that he would investigate what had
17 happened to you in the police station?
18 A. He didn't say a word about the way I looked.
19 Q. And finally on this topic, as a result of this arrest, were you
20 charged with anything by the police?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 I'll move on now to another topic and that's the disarming of the
24 Muslim population in Pale.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dobbyn, in the transcript, page 10, 1, it
1 looks like if the witness said that there -- something about
2 Malko Koroman's and our rifles on the table. I don't suppose he was
3 arrested with rifles or that there were -- that there were his rifles on
4 the table.
5 Can you clarify that, that there's no mistake?
6 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, there's no mistake. That's contained
7 in his 92 ter transcript. And as he testifies there, he was arrested
8 while standing guard outside his home where his rifle with leaning
9 against this building.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So it was his -- it was their rifles.
11 MR. DOBBYN: It was his -- yes.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 MR. DOBBYN:
14 Q. Mr. Crncalo, in your Krajisnik testimony, you described
15 Malko Koroman appearing on television and calling for non-Serbs to
16 surrender their weapons.
17 MR. DOBBYN: This is at transcript page 5317.
18 Q. And I'd like to ask you, Did he explicitly state that it was
19 non-Serbs only who were required to hand in their weapons?
20 A. I can see Malko Koroman still in my mind's eye. He was appearing
21 on television that night. And, with tears in his eyes, he was saying,
22 Regrettably, there is a war going on in Pale too, and all non-Serbs must
23 turn in all long-barrelled guns. And that meant the weapons of Muslims
24 and Croats.
25 Q. How were these weapons collected, and who collected them?
1 A. I cannot say exactly how much time we were given, but everyone
2 handed in their weapons at the police station.
3 In other local communes where it was not easy for people to get
4 to the police station, because some neighbourhoods are quite far from the
5 urban part of Pale, the police designated certain places where people
6 from the surrounding local communes should turn in their weapons.
7 Q. I move on, now, to a meeting you described with Malko Koroman and
8 Mr. Koljevic.
9 And you described that you had this meeting to discuss the
10 security of Muslims in Pale. And you testified that Mr. Koljevic told
11 that you that it didn't matter what the Muslims wanted because the Serbs
12 didn't want Muslims living in Pale.
13 And I'd like to ask you, just to be clear, Was Malko Koroman also
14 present when Mr. Koljevic said this to you?
15 A. Even before that meeting was organised, we asked Malko Koroman
16 and the president of Pale municipality to guarantee our safety so we
17 don't have to move out. But they kept sending us back and forth. And
18 then we went to the chief of the police and asked him to bring someone
19 from the authorities for a meeting so we can take to them directly.
20 And a meeting was set up in a private tavern. We came there.
21 Malko was present. And just for a while, one of the policemen,
22 Predrag Jovicic, disappeared for about ten minutes. And then he came
23 back, bringing Nikola Koljevic. And we chatted. And then I asked, Is
24 there a way, any way for us to find a way to live together as we had
25 lived so far, to defuse these tensions so we don't leave our homes? And
1 Nikola Koljevic says in exactly these words; I can quote him by heart:
2 There's little use in you wanting to live with Serbs in Pale because the
3 Serbs don't want to live together with you.
4 And we just eyed each other at that. And then Malko Koroman
5 added that he could not keep under control the Red Berets that had
6 arrived from Knin. They want to do their job, and he cannot guarantee
7 our safety.
8 Q. And can I just ask you, At that point, did you have any
9 understanding or any idea of what the job of the Red Berets was, when
10 Mr. Koroman said, They want to do their job?
11 A. I had the opportunity to see on television what the Serbian
12 television was showing, how in Knin and Gospic they were referring to the
13 Red Berets capturing Knin and Gospic. But they were practically burned
14 to the ground. People were killed, wounded, looted, especially in
15 Gospic. The whole small town was up in flames. And we thought, since he
16 said that they, the Red Berets, had come from Knin and that they were
17 billeted at the Panorama Hotel that they could do the same thing to the
18 non-Serb population in Pale as they did in Knin and Gospic.
19 Q. Did Mr. Koroman say whether any measures would be taken to
20 protect you from the Red Berets?
21 A. I'm going to repeat it. He said that he couldn't keep them under
22 control for long and that he couldn't guarantee our safety from the
23 Red Berets.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 Moving on. In Krajisnik you also described being visited by two
1 policemen, Jovan Skobo and another named Stanar who tried to convince you
2 to leave Pale.
3 MR. DOBBYN: And this is at transcript page 5322 in Krajisnik.
4 Q. Now, who were they speaking to? Were they coming to speak to you
5 alone as an individual, or were they speaking to groups of Muslims?
6 A. Not with me in particular. At the time, there was a lot of fear
7 for us. As soon as a police car would appear, we would be thinking that
8 they were coming to intervene for some reason. And people would
9 spontaneously begin to approach the car one by one asking, Why did you
10 come? And then, since a lot of people gathered around, they said, You
11 need to move out; you will have to move out. We said, Why? For what
12 reason? What did we do wrong? And then Jovan Skobo said, like this:
13 It's better for you to move out, rather than to have us hunt you down in
14 the woods and catch you and drive you out.
15 So we didn't know what to do. We didn't know what to say.
16 Q. And when you talk about approaching a car, are you saying this is
17 a car containing Jovan Skobo and this Mr. Stanar?
18 A. Yes, I'm thinking of that car, the police car.
19 Q. Now, we touched briefly on -- sorry, in your Krajisnik testimony,
20 you touched on the arming of Serbs. With the Serbs in Pale being armed,
21 did you ever have any problems with these weapons being used in a way
22 that caused you, as Muslims, any fear?
23 A. Yes. Problems began before 1992, as far as the arming is
24 concerned. Ten days before the new year, they began; before the new year
25 of 1992. Suddenly you could hear loud shooting around the urban part of
1 Pale. And we thought, Well, it's new year's eve. They're celebrating
2 before the new year. It will pass. The new year eve celebrations came
3 and went, but the shooting didn't stop. And then on the Serbian Orthodox
4 Christmas, January 7th, we hoped that it would stop. But then the
5 Orthodox Christmas came and went and the shooting didn't stop. There was
6 increasing psychological pressure because of the shooting. It didn't
7 stop, day and night. And this wasn't in the centre of town but it was a
8 little bit outside of the centre. You could hear shooting from automatic
9 weapons there.
10 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Bekto Jasarevic?
11 A. I know him very well. He's a barber, and his house was shot at
12 from automatic weapons and also hand-grenades were thrown at his house.
13 It was probably one of the neighbours. His brother was probably killed
14 in some action, when the Serbs went into action, and it was done out of
15 revenge, as far as that could be revenged. The house was attacked in
16 this way. The windows and the facade were damaged by the hand-grenades.
17 Q. What ethnicity was Bekto Jasarevic?
18 A. He was a Muslim.
19 Q. As far as you were aware, did the police take any action to stop
20 this random shooting that was going on around the town?
21 A. I don't have the translation.
22 Q. I'll ask that question again. Sorry, that wasn't translated,
23 Mr. Crncalo.
24 As far as you are aware, did the police take any action to stop
25 all the shooting that was going on around Pale town?
1 A. No action was taken. We asked at those meetings -- we asked
2 Malko Koroman, and he would reply saying that in the -- using the Bosnian
3 word, that they were just "senluciti," just celebrating and going a bit
4 wild, as celebration, and that that would pass.
5 Q. Now you've described your own arrest. Are you aware of any other
6 Muslims being arrested around Pale during this time?
7 A. Yes. I can say their names: Hrvo, Fehim was arrested;
8 Izet Jasarevic; Nasko Smaic; Alija Jusufovic; none of them came out of
9 prison. They were all killed in prison. There were random arrests on
10 the street. I was watching. It was all young people. Those two who
11 would take people by their arms and take them to the car and take them to
12 the police station are unknown to me. And the person who was pointing
13 out who would be arrested on the street was a man named Zoran Skobo; he
14 was a professor at the technical engineering school in the Pale
16 Q. Now I'd like to just ask you a couple of questions to clarify
17 what you've just said.
18 These individuals that you named who were arrested,
19 Izet Jasarevic and others, you said none of them came out of prison.
20 What was the prison that they were taken to?
21 A. They took them to the police. That was when the prison was set
22 up. Every police station has some room or a cell where they can place
23 perpetrators, but this one was actually set up in the old cinema hall
24 where films used to be shown, earlier.
25 Q. And who arrested them and took them to the cinema hall?
1 A. Well, the police. Who else?
2 Q. Now, are you also aware of an incident where some paramilitaries
3 took some gold from a woman and she complained to the police?
4 A. I don't know her name, but I know her husband's name is
5 Agan Kadiric. They confiscated jewelry from his wife, all that she had,
6 and they went and complained to the police. But then it was returned to
8 Q. Was she Muslim?
9 A. Yes, Muslim. She was a Muslim woman.
10 Q. So in this case, the police were able to get this gold back after
11 being taken by the paramilitaries. Are you aware of any action being
12 taken against paramilitaries in Pale by the police for any of the more
13 serious crimes they committed against Muslims?
14 A. I don't know about that.
15 Q. When you say you don't know about that, do you mean you don't
16 know whether any action was taken; or no, there was no action taken
17 against them?
18 A. I don't think that they did take any action. I mean, that would
19 be something that would be known, had they initiated any steps.
20 Q. With the -- the paramilitaries in Pale town, are you able to
21 estimate the number that were present in Pale through this period?
22 A. There was a barracks, Jahorinski Potok, in Pale, and it's a large
23 barracks in size. But it never had a lot of soldiers there. But now,
24 what you're asking me about, I really couldn't be sure. But there were
25 thousands of them, paramilitaries, the regular real army should have been
1 in the barracks together with its weapons. That's where they were. But
2 the others were wandering around Pale armed, and there were too many of
3 them. But I really couldn't say whether there were 10, 15 of them. I
4 mean, I really don't dare. But there were thousands of them.
5 Q. So, in your view, would it have been possible for these
6 paramilitaries to have gone around unnoticed in Pale town?
7 A. No, it wasn't possible for them to move around unnoticed. They
8 didn't hide themselves either. They were shirtless. They had these
9 ribbons around their foreheads, their arms. They had knives, guns at
10 their waists. They were driving around in open vehicles. They didn't
11 even try to hide. They wanted to show themselves, almost.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 I'll move on now to something else you talked about in Krajisnik.
14 And this was some Muslim men who were brought to Pale town from Bratunac.
15 And you described an incident in May 1992, when three truck-loads of
16 Muslim men from Bratunac were brought into Pale. And you said that the
17 truck stopped near the police station, and you could see that the men had
18 fresh wounds and blood on their faces.
19 I'd like to ask you, While these trucks were stopped there, did
20 you see any police in the area?
21 A. When the trucks stopped, I just was passing by there by chance.
22 And I'm not glad I saw that today. Well, anyway, when they stopped, the
23 police came out to see what was going on. And when they saw the people
24 in the vehicles, people were saying, Here are some Balijas that were
25 caught in Bratunac. And they added that it was the Green Berets. But
1 none of the men had a cap on their head of any kind, and they had those
2 rubber miner's boots, the ones that go up to the knees. They had work
3 pants. Some of them were wearing work shirts; some didn't, some
4 shirt [as interpreted]. But it was all clothing that was dirty from soil
5 or from being in the stables, from excrement. You could see that these
6 people were rounded up from some type of agricultural farming tasks and
7 rounded up and brought in these vehicles. And then I don't know; perhaps
8 it was the head of the municipality, Starcevic, who started to shout at
9 these people, that they had brought them. Why are you bringing them here
10 to me? I have no place for them. And then used these very words: Take
11 them back to where you got them from. Everyone was silent. I didn't
12 wanted to stay around for much longer. I heard later that they had been
13 accommodated in the cinema hall next to the police station.
14 I call it a prison, and it was, a war time prison.
15 Q. Thank you. And I'll move on to another topic.
16 Did you know someone by the name of Fehim Hrvo.
17 A. Yes, that was my neighbour. He was taken to prison, and he
18 didn't come out of the prison alive. He was killed.
19 Q. What was his ethnicity?
20 A. He was a Muslim.
21 Q. When you say he was taken to the prison, which building are you
22 referring to?
23 A. The cinema hall. The old cinema hall.
24 Q. Now, how did you find out that Mr. Hrvo had died?
25 A. A police patrol came to the street, and they were looking for
1 volunteers to go to prison to bring out a dead body from the prison.
2 They came to our street looking for people who dared to go and take out a
3 dead body from the prison. I didn't go. Some others did. And they
4 picked up the body and brought it back to our street. And we buried him
5 that same day.
6 Q. When this police patrol came to the street looking for
7 volunteers, did they say how Mr. Hrvo had died?
8 A. They did mention it. They said that he had hanged himself. But
9 there were no markings whatsoever on his neck that you could tell by --
10 that the man had been hanged.
11 Q. So you say he didn't have any markings around his neck. Did he
12 have any sort of markings or injuries on his body or his head or face?
13 A. No. We didn't really uncover the body to take a good look.
14 When he was brought back, there was an escort, a police escort,
15 about ten policemen who came. They all had automatic rifles. I will
16 never erase that image from my head. And instead of them being civil,
17 because there was a dead man there, they were holding their guns at the
18 ready and pointed them at us and at this dead body, when we were taking
19 the body down from some trailer, to take it down.
20 Q. Do you know whether or not the police conducted any investigation
21 into Mr. Hrvo's death?
22 A. I don't know. But I don't think that they did, no.
23 Q. Earlier on you mentioned some other people who had died whilst in
24 custody. Amongst them was Izet Jasarevic and some others. Do you know
25 if there was any police investigation into their deaths?
1 A. There was no investigation. Izet Jasarevic, Alija Jusufovic, and
2 Nasko Smaic; they were also killed in prison.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Moving on now to another topic, and this is the transfer of your
5 property. You testified in Krajisnik about having to sign over your
6 property to a Serbian woman. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. DOBBYN: Could we call up 65 ter 2463.
9 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you'll see a document coming up on the screen before
11 Mr. Crncalo, we have a technical problem with the B/C/S version
12 of this document, so I have a hard copy here, which I'll ask the usher to
13 perhaps hand to you.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: If I -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Your Honours. If I
15 may be of assistance. We uploaded the very same document also, as
16 Defence Exhibit 1D03-4102.
17 I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I thought it was the missing -- the
18 Serbian document; that's why I stood up.
19 MR. DOBBYN:
20 Q. Mr. Crncalo, is this the contract that you signed, exchanging
21 your property? I know it's difficult to read. But can you recognise
22 that as the contract for exchange of property?
23 A. Yes, I recognise it.
24 Q. And do you recognise your signature on that document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now I'd just like to look at the item number IV where it states
2 that the exchange is to be temporary until the war ends.
3 Did you, in fact, get your property back at any time?
4 A. I did get my house back in 1992.
5 Q. Sorry, in the transcript it says that you got your house back in
6 1992; is that correct?
7 A. I handed it over in 1992. In 2002, I got it back.
8 Q. And how did you go about getting it back?
9 A. There were these international organisations in Sarajevo that
10 dealt with the property matters, because after the Dayton Accords, no one
11 felt comfortable to go back to the municipalities from which people were
12 expelled. There was this international organisation, CRPC, that was
13 dealing with the submission of requests and the restoration of property.
14 They would check whether the requests for restoration of property were
15 authentic; and, if they were, then those organisations helped the people
16 to get their property back.
17 Q. Now, at the time that you exchanged your property or you signed
18 this document handing your property over, what, if anything, were you
19 allowed to take from your home?
20 A. We were allowed to take only -- we could take stuff in our hands.
21 I had a car. And it was not only me, but none of the citizens of Pale
22 were permitted to take their passenger or freight vehicle with them. We
23 could take with us only what we could pack and take in our hands.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd seek to tender this document now.
1 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1463, Your Honours.
3 MR. DOBBYN: And if I could now call up 65 ter 2465.
4 Q. Mr. Crncalo, another document will be coming up on screen in
5 front of you in a moment.
6 MR. DOBBYN: And if we could please go to page two of the
7 English, remaining on page 1 in the B/C/S.
8 Q. Mr. Crncalo, this is an excerpt from a register of contracts for
9 the exchange of properties. And if you look down at the bottom on the
10 B/C/S page, can you see an entry for the transfer of your house to a
11 woman named Dragica Subotic?
12 A. Yes, I can see it.
13 Q. And is that your signature next to that entry?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Did you sign this document at the police station in Pale?
16 A. This was signed at the municipal office, yes.
17 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to tender this document, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1464.
20 MR. DOBBYN: I'd now like to call up 65 ter 2460.
21 Q. This, Mr. Crncalo, is a decision of the Serbian Municipality of
22 Pale on the change of residence of Muslim and Croatian citizens.
23 And you will see at the bottom that it's signed by the president,
24 Radoslav Starcevic.
25 First of all, I will ask you: Have you ever seen this document
2 A. No, never.
3 Q. If we look at Article 1, it states there that:
4 "Citizens of Muslim and Croatian ethnicity who wish to change
5 their residence can exercise that right with the agreement of and
6 permission from the Pale Public Security Station."
7 Now, is this consistent with what you experienced, that, when you
8 were approached to exchange your property, it had to be done through the
10 A. It worked this way. People who had not signed any contract with
11 anyone - and I did - had to go to the police and turn in the keys of
12 their homes. And I said a moment ago, anyone who did not leave Pale
13 during the war did not survive. If you look at it realistically, and we
14 all made that decision, it's better to save the lives of your family than
15 your property. So we sacrificed our property to save our lives.
16 Q. And when you signed the exchange of your property, this had to be
17 done with the permission of the police; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. Yes, the police. The police made provision for that.
19 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd seek to tender this document.
20 JUDGE HALL: He has never seen it before and doesn't know about
21 it, Mr. Dobbyn.
22 MR. DOBBYN: I understand he hasn't seen it before, Your Honour.
23 In my submission, it's a document that's regular on its face. I don't
24 know if there's any specific challenge to its authenticity. It's
25 certainly relevant to his testimony, and he's able to talk about the
1 content of it, the involvement of police in the exchange of properties.
2 And it certainly corroborates his version of what happened when he was
3 forced to sign over his property.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: I -- I -- Your Honours, I don't have the objection
5 of -- of admittance of this document. But I have a problem with the
6 misinterpretation of the document which -- which Mr. Dobbyn is constantly
7 repeating. Because this has nothing to do with the -- with the change of
8 property. This is concerning the change of the -- of the -- of the --
9 what is the -- I'm sorry.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. ZECEVIC: The change of residence. This is -- this document
12 concerns the change of residence. And it says, For the persons of Muslim
13 and Croatian nationality, or ethnicity, who want to change their
14 residence. So voluntary, they want to change their residence, they can.
15 That is what this document says. It has nothing to do with the property
17 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, be that as it may, Mr. Crncalo changed
18 his residence. That had to be done through the police. That's exactly
19 what he's testified to, and this is what this document shows also.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: That is exactly what I -- what I was -- what I was
21 objecting about, because he didn't testify about that. He said that he
22 went to the municipal building and signed the contract on exchange of
23 property. It has nothing do with the police whatsoever.
24 But Mr. Dobbyn insisted on that for a couple of times and is
25 mixed and is confusing the witness about the change of residence and the
1 change of property, because those are two completely different issues and
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, you have -- no, you indicated that you
5 had no objection to the application of admission of the document by
6 itself --
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... that is correct,
8 Your Honour, yes.
9 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... in other words, there is
10 no -- do I take it that you do not take issue with the position of the
11 Prosecution that it is a regular document? The effect and intent is a
12 different thing which would be a matter of argument later down. But you
13 have no difficulty with the basic regularity of the document as an
14 official document?
15 MR. ZECEVIC: We do not contest that this is an official
16 document. At least it appears; I cannot, of course, guarantee that. But
17 I understand the reluctance of the Trial Chamber because of admitting
18 this document with this witness. But -- because the witness had never
19 seen it or has anything to do with.
20 So the nexus, I understand, is missing. But, still, I wanted to
21 say to the Trial Chamber that we do not object on admission of this
23 JUDGE HALL: Well, actually, for myself, I've gone past the
24 nexus. I was just looking at the regularity of the document as an
25 official document.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Well --
2 JUDGE HALL: In the context of that document being out there,
3 Mr. Dobbyn is making an argument which you are vigorously resisting. I
4 see that. But that's all a matter, at the end of the exercise, for
5 submissions by counsel.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I understand, Your Honours. And, again, we do
7 not object to -- to the authenticity of the -- of this document and its
8 relevance, of course.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, it -- it appears that this document may
11 be useful to you at some point. But where we are now in terms of what
12 this witness has testified, we -- we don't propose to accede to your
13 application to admit it.
14 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours. I'll move on.
15 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I'm going to move now to the issue of the bus
16 convoys from Pale and, in particular, the bus convoy that you were a part
17 of that left Pale.
18 And in your prior testimony, in Krajisnik, you described the
19 convoys that transported non-Serbs out of Pale town.
20 MR. DOBBYN: And, just for the record, this is at transcript
21 page 5348. Where this starts in the Krajisnik testimony.
22 Q. And in relation to that, you said, in Krajisnik, that they
23 rounded up all the people, and they were taken away.
24 When you said "They rounded up all the people," who were you
25 referring to?
1 A. You mean took them away in convoys? Is that the question you're
3 Q. What I'm asking is, Who rounded up the people and put them on
4 these convoys?
5 A. If the police was escorting us all the way from getting onto the
6 bus until we got onto the bus, then, of course, it was the police. Who
7 else could it be? And they did escort us all the way. So it was the
8 police who did it.
9 Q. You mentioned a while back that you -- you owned a car. Was
10 leaving Pale in your own car -- sorry.
11 A. I did. I did have a car.
12 Q. And was leaving Pale in your own car an option that was available
13 to you?
14 A. It was not possible for me or anyone who lived in the urban area
15 of Pale to take their car when leaving, when moving out. There were
16 people who had more than one car, including freight vehicles. There were
17 people who were professional hauliers in Pale, many of them. But the
18 police did not allow cars to be used. You could carry only what you
19 could carry in a bag or in your hands. And I also have to say, about
20 these swaps: People are trying to insinuate here that I voluntarily
21 left, voluntarily swapped my property. People, who would possibly make a
22 blind swap, not knowing what you're getting in return? Is there a person
23 who would do such a thing voluntarily? When I came to the address I was
24 given, half of the house was destroyed. That was the swap I got.
25 Q. Thank you. I'll move on now.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, do you expect to finish with this
2 witness before the break?
3 MR. DOBBYN: If -- I have about another 15 minutes, Your Honours.
4 Should we continue after the break?
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, yes.
6 MR. DOBBYN: Okay. That's fine.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
10 JUDGE HALL: We've been alert that the OTP, in the person of
11 Mr. Hannis, wishes to raise a matter before the witness comes in.
12 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, it has to do with scheduling.
13 Witness ST-119 was the witness who was scheduled for a videolink.
14 We cancelled that on Friday, after talking with him. His health had
15 gotten worse, his memory was worse. We made a decision not to call him.
16 We have found a witness who was able to come, travel today, to
17 testify later this week. It's ST-160, I believe. However, he's just
18 arrived; I think his plane touched down within the past half-hour or so.
19 He is expected to be here about 2.00 to begin proofing. The
20 Stanisic Defence has requested to meet with whim, and that's tentatively
21 scheduled for 4.00.
22 We would like to consult with the witness this afternoon and see
23 if he feels comfortable in starting tomorrow, as soon as this witness is
24 finished, whether that's at 9.00 or sometime later.
25 But we wanted to alert you to the possibility that, if he says, I
1 just got here; I need a little more time, and maybe a delayed start for
2 him tomorrow as well. I just wanted to bring that to your attention.
3 And we will advise the parties and Your Honours as soon as we found out.
4 And I wanted to make an anticipatory request for a delayed start in case
5 that is indeed what happens.
6 The following witness for later this week is ST-168. I have two
7 hours for direct examine; I think the Defence has requested four and a
8 half total. So I still think, even if there is a delayed start tomorrow,
9 for the next witness, we will finish this week without any problem.
10 JUDGE HALL: In terms of tomorrow, as presently advised, what is
11 the latest you think you would wish to begin?
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, Mr. Di Fazio will be leading the
13 witness. I haven't had a chance to speak with him. It might be like
14 today. We might request to start at 11.00. It's beginning to look now
15 as though the current witness may spill over partly into tomorrow, so it
16 may not be as big a gap as I first anticipated.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. We'll see.
18 [Microphone not activated] ... if the witness who is -- who is
19 not -- if the witness does, in fact, finish tomorrow, the Registry needs
20 to be in a position to know by this afternoon whether, in fact, we would
21 be starting late tomorrow. So the -- we will see how the rest of the day
22 goes. Thank you.
23 MR. HANNIS: We will advise you as soon as we can, to avoid any
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 MR. DOBBYN:
2 Q. Hello again, Mr. Crncalo. We'll carry on from where we left off
3 before the break.
4 MR. DOBBYN: And I would like to show Exhibit P1453.
5 Q. And, Mr. Crncalo, what you see in front of you is a proposal from
6 the Muslim community that was sent to the Pale Crisis Staff. It was
7 concerning arrests of unarmed members of the Muslim community.
8 Now, the first paragraph, point -- sorry, the first paragraph,
9 not numbered, refers to a meeting held by a group of Muslim citizens from
10 Pale on the 9th of April, 1992.
11 Now, were you involved in any such meetings of concerned Muslim
12 residents of Pale?
13 A. Yes. Several times I participated in such meetings, asking for a
14 possibility to be given to us to stay in Pale and to live there.
15 Q. And if we look at this particular document, we can see that among
16 the proposals that were put forward were joint patrols; we see removal of
17 barricades; and presence of all ethnicities and all contacts between --
18 in the municipality.
19 Now, we see that this was sent to the Crisis Staff apparently.
20 In the proposal also, if you look at number 4, it asks that:
21 "Representatives of the Muslims and other citizens be co-opted
22 into the Pale municipal Crisis Staff."
23 Now, as far as you are aware, were there any non-Serb members of
24 the Crisis Staff in Pale?
25 A. No, never.
1 Q. Are you aware whether any one particular political party
2 dominated the Crisis Staff?
3 A. Well, the Crisis Staff was set up by the SDS party in the first
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DOBBYN: I'd now like to move on and show Exhibit P1454.
7 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you can see that this is the Crisis Staff's response
8 to the proposals of the 10th of April.
9 Now, first of all, I would ask you if you ever saw this document
11 A. Yes, I saw it the last time I testified.
12 Q. If we could look at the first conclusion here, Mr. Crncalo. It
14 "There is no reason for the Muslim population to panic and move
15 out. The Serbian Municipality of Pale shall offer full protection to all
16 citizens of Pale municipality, whatever their ethnicity or creed."
17 And, Mr. Crncalo, in your experience, was this undertaking to
18 protect all citizens in Pale followed through?
19 A. Well, I gave this account several times, and I'll do it again:
20 We asked for safety and the possibility to go on co-existing in
21 Pale. But the last time we made that request, the answers from Koljevic
22 and Koroman meant that we had to move out, that our safety cannot be
23 guaranteed. And Malko Koroman said he could not protect us from the
24 Red Berets, so we felt no guarantee of safety was given by the
25 municipality authorities in Pale.
1 Q. Moving on to the second conclusion there. It states that:
2 "Supplies will be provided equally to all parts of the
4 And, Mr. Crncalo, did all groups in the municipality receive
5 equal supplies during after time?
6 A. That time - and I will limit myself to the period in 1992 until
7 the 2nd of July when I left - what you could find in the shops, in the
8 area where I lived, was the barest minimum. And in Korane, they had a
9 sign in the shop windows that there are no goods to be sold for
10 no Serbs [as interpreted]. It's the local community of Korane.
11 Q. I'd just like to clear that up. Korane, is -- was that a Muslim
12 or Serb area?
13 A. It was mixed. Majority Serb, as in the whole of Pale. In the
14 local commune of Korane, there were Muslims, but they were less than
15 10 per cent.
16 Q. The answer you gave earlier has been translated as:
17 "... they had a sign in the shop windows that there are no goods
18 to be sold for no Serbs."
19 I'd just like to get some clarification on that. Are you saying
20 that goods would be sold to non-Serbs or would not be sold to non-Serbs?
21 A. Goods will not be sold to non-Serbs.
22 Q. Now, going back to this document from the Crisis Staff, the third
23 conclusion is a proposal that:
24 "Issues be agreed on by an inter-party commission composed of
25 members of the Pale SDS and SDA."
1 Are you aware of the existence of any such commission?
2 A. I was not a member of the SDA party, although I was a follower.
3 As far as that committee is concerned, or commission, the population
4 would have been aware of its work. And I can say with certainty that
5 there was no such commission among the Muslim population.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 I'll move on now to another issue that you touched on in your
8 Krajisnik testimony.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we do so.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Dobbyn, I'd like to ask the witness how he
12 perceived this apparent contradiction between the two indications, given,
13 on the one hand by the Crisis Staff, as we see here on the screen, that
14 there's no reason for the Muslim population to panic and to move and so
15 on and so forth; and, on the other hand, the televised messages given by
16 Koroman and others at the time that Muslims should leave as soon as they
18 How did you perceive these two contradictory messages, if you
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document that I saw, the last
21 time I testified and today, I had never been aware of it before I came
22 here, and I did not know that such a thing was written and put on some
23 sort of agenda at the meetings of the Pale municipality. On the other
24 hand is something entirely different that I lived through, and that's the
25 same experience other people like me had: and that was daily pressure,
1 ranging from shooting in the air to arrests of certain persons who were
2 later carried out dead, out of the prison, and the rounding up of young
3 men in the streets.
4 I think I was quite clear. I saw this document for the first
5 time here, and I can understand what you say about my testimony and this
6 document being in contradiction. But I'm seeing this document -- in
7 fact, I saw this document for the first time last time I came here to
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. 33, line 6, I believe the
12 witness's answer is part of your question, so just for the sake of the
13 clarity of the transcript, this should be remedied. Thank you.
14 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, I can see that that is actually my question
16 Q. To move on and to follow up on His Honour Judge Harhoff's
17 question, you've said that you weren't aware of this document before
18 having come to the Tribunal the last time to testify. Were there any
19 sort of public notices or pronouncements in Pale during the first half of
20 1992, encouraging Muslims to stay put and that they were safe there?
21 A. Announcements or proclamations or good news that we could stay to
22 live in Pale did not exist, at least until I was living there, the
23 2nd of July.
24 Q. Thank you. I want to move on now to something you touched on in
25 your prior testimony, and that's -- you mention an occasion when
1 Radovan Karadzic was in Pale and gave a speech.
2 Can you recall when this took place?
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm really sorry. I have to object to this.
4 Your Honours, this -- maybe the witness should remove his
5 headphones. I don't know if he speaks English. Or maybe he could
6 be excused until we clarify the situation.
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Perhaps the witness should be excused for the
8 time being.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm really sorry for disturbing the
11 proceedings in this way, but I think this is important.
12 The -- the 92 ter package which was offered by the Prosecutor is
13 the -- his -- the testimony of the witness in Krajisnik case. In
14 Krajisnik case, during the whole case or in all his previous testimonies,
15 he never, ever mentioned this episode with Mr. Karadzic.
16 This episode only appeared in the transcript in his testimony at
17 Karadzic in April 2010.
18 Now, based on that, I don't -- I don't really see the basis for
19 this question by -- by my learned friend, Mr. Dobbyn. Because if the --
20 if the Prosecution wanted this on the record or as an issue in -- in this
21 case, they -- they could have covered his transcript -- his testimony,
22 his transcript of his testimony in Karadzic.
23 Now, they opted for Krajisnik. I'm -- I mean, I really have a
24 problem with that. If it's a 92 ter package and it's a 92 ter witness,
25 that they -- that they go beyond -- that the -- that the Office of the
1 Prosecutor seeks to go beyond what is -- what is obviously a frame of the
2 92 ter testimony of the witness.
3 That is my opinion.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, if I could reply to that.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.
8 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, his 92 ter package and his summary
9 from Krajisnik talks about persecution, increased public manifestations
10 of nationalism, the conditions under which the non-Serb population was
11 living. This issue that I'm about to address now certainly comes under
12 that. So there is notice about this sort of thing.
13 Furthermore, at the time that his 92 ter package was put
14 together, he obviously hadn't testified in Karadzic. He testified in
15 Karadzic in April of this year. However, that's been disclosed to the
16 Defence. As we can tell from submissions, they are aware of that. This
17 does build on the issues that are contained in his package, in his
18 65 ter summary. And, yes, we could have taken the approach of adding an
19 additional transcript to his 92 ter package, but, really, for this one
20 point, that really doesn't seem worthwhile. It would be burdening the
21 Trial Chamber with a whole new transcript of another case, when there's
22 this one point that we feel adds to what's in his summary.
23 JUDGE HALL: Except, Mr. Dobbyn, that now that you are
24 specifically relying on it, not having made the application to -- at the
25 risk of, quote/unquote, burdening the Trial Chamber, isn't there a basis
1 for Mr. Zecevic's objection, that until you proffered the question to the
2 witness now, he would have had no indication that you sought to rely --
3 you sought to go beyond the existing 92 ter package and add material from
4 the Karadzic trial in April of this year?
5 MR. DOBBYN: Again, Your Honour, in my submission, this certainly
6 doesn't go beyond any of the topics that are contained in his
7 92 ter package, and it certainly comes squarely within what's contained
8 in his 65 ter summary: the conditions that the non-Serbs were living in,
9 the threats that were being made against them, the uncomfortable tension
10 that was being caused by the various leaders in the area. And this is --
11 just certainly comes under that.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. DOBBYN: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I do have one point that
15 I'd like to add, if possible.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.
17 MR. DOBBYN: In my submission, Your Honour, that if there is a
18 problem with this, then the way to address it is to be giving the Defence
19 more time to prepare for cross-examination. Certainly, as I've said,
20 it's contained within the bounds of the 65 ter summary, this type of
21 incident. If they feel that they haven't had sufficient notice, the
22 proper remedy is not to prevent us from putting this evidence forward to
23 the Trial Chamber, but to give Defence more time to prepare for
24 cross-examination to address this point, if that's what they need.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dobbyn, the -- this speech, Mr. Karadzic's
2 speech, that event, is that specifically mentioned in the summary?
3 MR. DOBBYN: No, Your Honour. This specific speech is not
4 mentioned. As we say, those -- our 65 ter summaries and 92 ter package
5 were put together well before he testified in Karadzic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may add one -- one -- one thing.
7 This all could have been remedied by the contents of the proofing
9 Now, the proving note is silent about this. This is a very
10 specific incident, that Karadzic's speech, alleged speech, in Pale on
11 certain occasion is a very specific incident which has been challenged
12 and discussed at the -- at the Karadzic trial.
13 So during the proofing of this witness, this wasn't -- or maybe
14 it was discussed, but it wasn't -- we were not made aware of the fact
15 that it was discussed. And that is why I -- I don't think that --
16 that -- that this is a proper way of conducting the case.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, this isn't something that came up for
19 the first time during proofing. It came up in the Karadzic case, and
20 that testimony has been disclosed to Defence.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE HALL: The Chamber will allow the question, but the remedy
23 that we would apply is to permit the -- counsel for -- for the
24 Accused Stanisic additional time to deal with this specific question. So
25 that means that we'll take the witness into tomorrow.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Dobbyn, please proceed.
3 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I'll just return to the question that I asked you
5 before we took a short break.
6 In your Krajisnik testimony, you mentioned an occasion when
7 Radovan Karadzic was in Pale and gave a speech. Now, can you recall when
8 this took place?
9 A. I think it was in the first half of July. I can't tell you the
10 exact date. But it was in the first half of July.
11 Q. Were you able to hear any of the speech that he gave?
12 A. I did not stay for long, but I did hear a bit.
13 First, he was talking about the defusing of tensions that arose
14 over the deaths of close family members of those present. And then he
15 said, By attacking every Muslim house, you are protecting your own home.
16 He did not specify where or whose house, but he just said, By attacking
17 every Muslim house, you protect your own home.
18 Q. Where did he give this speech?
19 A. Near the culture hall, which was, at the time, the seat of the
21 Q. Moving on, Mr. Crncalo, do you have any knowledge of any sort of
22 attack on the village of Hrenovica?
23 A. I do. The last time I came to testify, a document was shown to
24 me in relation to the collection of weapons from Muslims. And the
25 document clearly bears the title: "Military action in the territory of
2 I said then, and I say now, when you collect weapons, it was
3 collected the way I described, when I and all the other people came to a
4 certain place to hand over their weapons. Whereas, this was a military
5 operation to capture territory. And, at the time, two policemen were
6 killed, and perhaps four were wounded. After that, an order came out
7 from Malko Koroman that all the weapons in the hands of Muslims should be
8 turned over to the police.
9 Q. And just to be clear, is Hrenovica largely a Muslim settlement?
10 A. It was not purely Muslim. The population was mixed, like in all
11 the other parts of Pale. But the Muslims lived there in a higher
12 percentage than Serbs.
13 Q. And do you know if any civilians were killed in this attack?
14 A. I don't know about that, but I know that many civilians were
15 arrested and brought to the prison in Pale. And there were some among
16 them who were so badly beaten that they could not survive. They
17 succumbed to their injuries.
18 Q. Do you recall approximately when this operation on Hrenovica took
20 A. Early May, I think.
21 Q. Earlier on you mentioned that two policemen were killed, or
22 perhaps four. So is it your understanding that police were involved in
23 this -- this operation?
24 A. Of course. How else would they get killed if they did not
1 Q. Thank you.
2 And now the final matter.
3 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to call up Exhibit P990.
4 Q. And what you will see coming up before you, Mr. Crncalo, in a
5 moment, is a photograph.
6 MR. DOBBYN: And is it possible to blow that up any -- thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Crncalo, do you recognise what this photo -- photograph
9 A. I can. This is the urban part of Pale municipality.
10 Q. Now, with the help of the usher, I wonder if you could mark the
11 location of the police station.
12 A. Is this enough?
13 Q. If you could just put a circle completely around the building,
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And within that circle could you write the number 1.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you.
19 Now, in this photograph, can you locate the former cinema where
20 you say a prison operated?
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And could you mark that with the number 2, please.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you.
25 You've also -- you -- referring to the speech that was given by
1 Radovan Karadzic that was given outside the cultural building, can you
2 find the cultural building and put a circle around that?
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And if you could mark that with the number 3.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. One moment, I'm sorry, I haven't finished.
7 You also described the incident where trucks filled with Muslim
8 men from Bratunac arrived in Pale. Could you mark with an X the location
9 where these trucks pulled up and stopped?
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And just above those Xs, could you put the number 4.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Now, is the location where you were loaded onto buses in the
14 convoy that left Pale on the 2nd of July, is that visible on this
16 A. Well, no. We would need to look at the right side of the
17 photograph, because you can't see it here.
18 Q. Thank you very much. That's all the marks I need on that.
19 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd ask that this be given a new
20 exhibit number and admitted.
21 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1465, Your Honours.
23 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you. I have no further questions at this
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Dobbyn.
1 MR. DOBBYN: Yes.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have a question to you, because you asked the
3 witness just a while ago about three or four policemen killed in Pale.
4 Now let me see if I can find it.
5 The reason I wanted to get back to it was that your question was
6 a bit ambiguous, because it sounded to me as if you are -- ah, here it
7 is. It's on page 40, line 20.
8 Can you get back to that?
9 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, I see that, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And this is your question to the witness:
11 "Earlier on you mentioned that two policemen were killed, or
12 perhaps four. So is it your understanding that police were involved in
13 this operation?"
14 And the witness answered:
15 "Of course. How else would they get killed if they didn't
17 Who -- first of all, let me ask you if -- if this is a reference
18 to Adjudicated Fact 1313 which reads that at least three Muslims were
19 killed by Serb forces?
20 I take it it's not the same incident, but I just wanted to be
22 MR. DOBBYN: No, Your Honour, it's not. And perhaps I could ask
23 some further questions in --
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: In any case, let -- let's get back to the -- my
25 first part of the question, namely, the killing of two policemen.
1 Of which ethnicity were those policemen? Were they Serbs or
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were Serbs.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: All right. So two Serbian policemen were killed,
5 and Mr. Dobbyn's question to you was that they were killed because they
6 took part in an operation.
7 Do you recall what that operation was?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was an attack on Hrenovica.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
11 MR. DOBBYN: I have nothing further to add to that, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Dobbyn.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Crncalo.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. Sir, I'm going to start with a couple of questions about the
18 context of your testimony in the Krajisnik case.
19 In the Krajisnik case, on page 5.305 of the transcript, you said
20 that, according to what you know, the mobilisation that was carried out
21 in 1991 and 1992 did not include Muslims but affected only the Serbs who
22 lived in the Pale municipality territory.
23 Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, I do. I remember that testimony very well, and I can tell
25 you that I'm right for saying that.
1 Look, when we spoke about the statement of Karadzic a couple of
2 minutes ago, the Muslims, at the time, young men from my street, tried to
3 go to the hospital to give blood for the wounded who were brought in by
4 helicopter from Zepa. They were turned back. They didn't want to take
5 their blood to help the wounded. Never mind mobilise a Muslim into the
6 army. So I think I said what I said correctly.
7 Q. I'm just asking you to make a break, a slight pause, between my
8 question and your answer, because what we say needs to be interpreted.
9 Thank you.
10 The fact is, sir, that, isn't it, that the Party of Democratic
11 Action, the SDA, like all the officials of the -- of Muslim ethnicity in
12 the Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina appealed on
13 ethnic Muslims not to respond to the JNA call-up. Isn't that correct?
14 A. I'm going to answer that question. Yes, that's how it was. But
15 does anybody ask why?
16 Q. Thank you. This is a sufficient answer that this was really so.
17 Sir, can you tell me, it's correct, isn't it, that already in
18 early 1992 there were check-points on the Sarajevo-Pale road. Do you
19 remember that? You also talked about that in your testimony in the
20 Krajisnik case.
21 A. Sarajevo-Pale, there were check-points on that road.
22 Q. At the Lapisnica location.
23 A. Who manned that check-point? The Serbs did.
24 Q. Are you aware that the Green Berets at the station in Sarajevo,
25 the bus station in Sarajevo, checked the IDs of all the people in early
1 1992, all the people who were going east towards Pale? Are you aware of
3 A. When the check-points were set up that we just talked about, it
4 wasn't just me, but almost the entire population of the Pale municipality
5 couldn't really go to Sarajevo because they were turned back. When we
6 were still going to work, before we were dismissed from our jobs,
7 these -- this check-points at Lapisnica checked all the IDs of the people
8 entering Pale. Once we were fired, there was no longer any communication
9 open at Korane. It was closed.
10 Q. Sir, can you please concentrate. I'm asking you about the early
11 1992 period, and you're talking about May 1992.
12 Are you aware that the members of the Green Berets were checking
13 the IDs of all the people at the bus station in Sarajevo, all the people
14 who were going east towards Pale and Eastern Bosnia?
15 Are I aware of this or not?
16 A. No, I'm not aware of this.
17 Q. Are you aware that the Public Security Station Centar chief, a
18 certain Ismet Dahic, already in late 1991 drove away all the Serb ethnic
19 police officers from that public security station?
20 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
21 Q. And can you please tell me the Sarajevo-Centar municipality
22 borders on the Pale municipality, doesn't it?
23 A. No, they don't border on each other. Their borders don't touch
25 Q. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. It's not Centar, but Stari Grad
2 The Stari Grad municipality and the Pale municipality are next to
3 one another, they share a common border. Isn't that correct?
4 A. The Stari Grad and the Pale municipalities do have a common
6 Q. Since I made a mistake and I said that the public security
7 station, Ismet Dahic was the chief in Stari Grad, are you aware of that?
8 A. Malko did mention another person as the chief in the Stari Grad
9 Police Station. I think his name was Enes -- Enes, Eno. He would say,
10 Eno, I need this or I need that. His name is Enes. He was the chief
11 police officer. Malko never mentioned any Ismet Dahic.
12 Q. And this conversation was the one when Malko Koroman said that no
13 police officer of Muslim ethnicity will be employed at the Pale station
14 until a Serb ethnic policeman is employed at the Stari Grad-Sarajevo
15 Police Station; is that the conversation we're talking about?
16 A. Yes. That is it when he mentioned Eno.
17 Q. Sir, isn't it correct that the Lapisnica check-point was set up
18 on the road only after the Green Berets attacked the Serbian village in
19 early April 1992?
20 A. I cannot understand that that would be the reason to set up the
21 check-point. Because when people were still going to work, the
22 check-point was already there, and people were living in that village.
23 Q. Sir, from your testimony, we see that you went to work for the
24 whole month of May. So I'm asking you about a particular moment in time
25 when this check-point was set up in early April, after the attack by the
1 Green Berets on this Serbian village, are you aware - yes or no - of
3 A. No, I'm not.
4 Q. In March 1992, you were arrested -- or, rather, brought in to the
5 public security station because you were on guard in front of your house
6 with a rifle; is that correct?
7 A. The rifle was leaning against the wall. That is true. But I was
8 actually standing in front of the house.
9 Q. If I understood you correctly, this is a hunting rifle.
10 A. Yes. It's a hunting rifle, a pump-action rifle.
11 Q. Did you have a licence for it?
12 A. Yes, of course. It was licensed at the police station.
13 Q. Sir, you know very well, if you were registered for a weapon, if
14 you had a licence, that in order to licence a hunting rifle, you had to
15 be a member of some kind of hunters' society. That is what the rules are
16 in the former Yugoslavia.
17 A. Yes, before you could receive a licence for a weapon, you needed
18 to be a member of some kind of hunters' association. That is correct.
19 Q. And it's a fact, isn't it, that this hunting weapon that you had,
20 this rifle, you were allowed to carry only when you went hunting. Isn't
21 that right? That -- the licence didn't mean that you could walk around
22 town with long-barrelled weapon?
23 A. Well, this is not a long-or a short-barrelled hunting weapon.
24 This is a hunting rifle. There are no other ways to describe it. As for
25 carrying weapons, you could carry it in town, but it would have to be in
1 a holster. I didn't leave my yard. I was in my yard in front of my
2 house. I wasn't carrying it anywhere or carrying it around anywhere.
3 Q. Sir, in the case in Sarajevo in 1995, before the investigative
4 judge, you gave a statement.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] This is 1D03-4106.
6 Q. You recall that on the 23rd of August, 1995, you did give a
7 statement to the investigative judge in Sarajevo in the presence -- this
8 was Judge Hadzic Ibrahim and Public Prosecutor Dzemila Begovic; do you
9 recall that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And this is the first page. Is this your signature?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. I assume that you had no reason not to tell the truth to the
14 judge in Sarajevo in 1995.
15 A. I am a man of good character. I wouldn't tell an untruth to
16 anyone on the street, never mind to any kind of official organ in any
18 Q. And before you began this testimony in 1995, you were warned
19 about your duty to tell the truth, that you were not allowed to -- not to
20 disclose anything, omit anything, and that you gave an oath that you
21 would speak the truth?
22 A. Well, I did give an oath here to speak the truth, and I did the
23 same in Sarajevo as well.
24 Q. All right. So then there is no reason for us to doubt that the
25 facts that are included in this statement are untruthful or incorrect?
1 A. It's up to you to believe this or that, and I'm here. So if
2 something is not quite right, you can ask me.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 2 of
4 this document.
5 Q. And you say in the middle of the text somewhere, when you are
6 describing this arrest on the 3rd and 4th of March - I don't know if you
7 can see it - the sentence begins:
8 "Thus, I was on the 3rd and 4th of March, 1992 ..."
9 Would you like for us to zoom on that part of the document, where
10 the numbers are? 0304.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we can zoom in on the Serbian
12 version please.
13 Q. Can you see it now?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. And it says there that you assert that on 3rd and
16 4th of March you were on guard duty in front of the house with a hunting
17 rifle, when a vehicle arrived - I assume that it's a police vehicle - and
18 that they picked you up immediately and took you to the police station.
19 Do you recall that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Is that what it says in the statement?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 Q. And this is what happened?
24 A. Well, the car didn't actually come right in front of the house.
25 They walked up to the house. They left the car a little bit before the
2 Q. And can you please tell me, In your testimony today, while this
3 person called Hrsum, a police employee at the Pale Public Security
4 Station, interrogated you that evening, you said that some other
5 inspector came in in civilian clothing and that he forbade Hrsum from
6 beating you anymore. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is. And he also said that he came from Sarajevo; he
8 emphasised that.
9 Q. And this inspector, he told you later -- you mentioned something
10 about cigarettes. He told you that nobody was allowed to take your
11 cigarettes from you. Is that what you told you?
12 A. Yes, that is correct. And he put them in my pocket himself.
13 Q. All right. Very well. Can you recall approximately at what time
14 this inspector arrived?
15 A. Well, I was beaten as much as I was beaten. So I think you need
16 to understand me that I cannot really orient myself as to what time it
18 Q. Well, this was certainly before Malko Koroman came, because
19 Malko Koroman found you in the corridor. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes, I was in the corridor.
21 Q. And can you tell approximately how much earlier this inspector in
22 civilian clothing arrived before Malko Koroman arrived? If you can. If
23 not, it's all right.
24 A. I cannot. It was maybe two hours before. That's possible.
25 Q. It was two hours, then, before Malko Koroman came that this
1 inspector in civilian clothing came and forbade Hrsum from beating you?
2 A. I'm not sure. I said two hours, but this is not certain. I was
3 beaten. I was afraid. All I can do is just say something off the top of
4 my head, but I'm not really sure whether that would be a correct estimate
5 or not.
6 Q. If I understood you correctly, after Malko Koroman came, this was
7 after midnight, in any event?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He took you and your neighbour, who was also brought in, to this
10 room and sat down to speak with you, and he threw this Hrsum person out;
11 isn't that right?
12 A. Sir, first of all, I was not brought in. I was arrested, and I
13 had handcuffs on my hands. So don't try to paint it as something else.
14 Second, the neighbour was still in there when Malko Koroman came. I was
15 standing in the corridor by myself. And then Malko called me to this
16 room and told Hrsum to leave the room.
17 Q. Sir, I assert that you were not arrested because after this
18 conversation with Malko Koroman you were released; isn't that right?
19 A. And how would you treat it? When I had handcuffs on my hands?
20 Was I arrested or not? I was handcuffed, firmly handcuffed. Well, you
21 can define being brought in or being arrested with handcuffs on my hands.
22 Q. I don't want to enter into a discussion with you. These are
23 legal terms, and I assume that you're not familiar with that. There is a
24 difference. But this is not really that important. What's important are
25 the facts.
1 So can you please tell me, It's a fact that after that
2 conversation that you had with Malko Koroman, Malko Koroman took you and
3 your neighbour home in his own car. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And after March 1992, the situation deteriorated, the security
6 situation in the Pale municipality; isn't that right?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And this was a reflection of the situation in Sarajevo, first of
9 all, which was really bad; the security situation, I mean?
10 A. I wasn't able to find out what was going on in Sarajevo. I am
11 talking here about what I experienced on my own skin. This is where the
12 reflection came from. I knew who implemented it, but I don't know where
13 that came from. I cannot say one -- that one way or the other.
14 Q. Sir, the fact is, and you testified to that in your previous
15 testimonies here at this Tribunal, that a large number of refugees, Serbs
16 from Sarajevo, fled to Pale; is that right?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. And you saw them there, didn't you?
19 A. Yes, I did. The ones who came to my street to show themselves
20 decked out with hand-grenades, automatic weapons with knives; those
21 people, yes, I did see them.
22 Q. Sir, I'm asking you about refugees from Sarajevo.
23 A. Yes, they also showed themselves as being from Sarajevo, these
24 refugees, and they joined up the army right away.
25 Q. So you're trying to tell me that they left their families in
1 Sarajevo? Where were their women and children?
2 A. They all came. They brought them too.
3 Q. Did you see their wives and children of those refugees from
5 A. Yes. On that day, when I had to sign a contract that we talked
6 about earlier, that is when I did see the mother of this Subotic, Miro; I
7 saw her.
8 Q. Sir, would you kindly answer my questions? I'm asking you about
9 the time in April and May. March, April, and May 1992. We will come to
10 what you're talking about. This is July 1992.
11 Can you please tell me if you saw Serb refugee families from
12 Sarajevo in Pale during March, April, and May 1992? Yes or no?
13 A. Not during March. During April, I did. There was a person, a
14 woman who came from Dobrinja; she came to my street; entered a house; and
15 then complained to me at one occasion how little humanitarian aid she
16 got, two or three kilos of potatoes and some margarine; and she was
17 saying how was she going to survive on this for a week. I would see,
18 also, the crush of unfamiliar people whenever cigarettes were being
19 distributed. I did see that in Pale, yes.
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, we've reached the point where we must
21 take the adjournment for today.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, I will continue
24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Crncalo, we will resume tomorrow morning. And I
25 must remind you that, having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any
1 communication with the lawyers from either side in the trial or -- and in
2 such conversations as you have with persons outside the court, you cannot
3 discuss your testimony.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day
7 of June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.