Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12008

 1                           Tuesday, 22 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.29 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             Good morning, everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances for today, please.

12             MR. DOBBYN:  Good morning, Your Honours.

13             For the Office of the Prosecutor, Gerard Dobbyn with Tom Hannis

14     and Crispian Smith.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

16             Slobodan Zecevic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and

17     Ms. Tatjana Savic for Stanisic Defence.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

19             For Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic.

20             I would like to apologise.  It was misunderstanding, that we are

21     starting at 11.00, yesterday.  So completely my fault.  I, again, ask for

22     apologies for everyone.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

24             MR. PANTELIC:  Welcome.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 12009

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Before Mr. Dobbyn completes his

 2     examination-in-chief, I remind the witness that he is still on his oath.

 3             Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.

 4             Sorry.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  That's what comes when relying on one's memory

 7     rather than looking at the notes.  My apologise, Mr. Zecevic.  Please

 8     resume your cross-examination.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10                           WITNESS:  SULEJMAN CRNCALO [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

14        A.   Good morning.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] could the witness please be shown

16     1D03-4106.

17        Q.   That is your statement from 1995, sir.  We received it yesterday.

18             Let me go back to one question we discussed yesterday.  Your

19     detention, namely; you call it arrest.  Early on 3rd or 4th March 1992.

20             You told the Prosecutor or myself that completely blameless you

21     were taken to the police station and beaten up by this man Hrsum; and

22     when you were asked by the Prosecutor what kind of injuries you

23     sustained, you said this man Hrsum punched you in the face and beat you

24     with a club or truncheon on the back.

25             You remember that?

Page 12010

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Then the Prosecutor asked you if Malko Koroman had noticed the

 3     injuries to your face and if he had taken any steps about that, and you

 4     said, to the best of your knowledge, he didn't do anything?

 5        A.   He didn't do anything.

 6        Q.   In your statement -- may page 2 be shown to you, please.

 7             In 1995, you stated that this man, Hrsum, who had interrogated

 8     you, slapped you a couple of times - that means with an open hand, not a

 9     fist - and hit you with a truncheon on the back.  The discrepancy is

10     small, but it is important to know whether slaps in the face leave

11     visible traces.  They don't.  But if he punched you in the face, you

12     would have visible injuries.

13             It's important to know, therefore, which of the two it is.

14             MR. DOBBYN:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I'd just like to intervene at

15     this point.  I understand that we rely on translations here, but the --

16     what's being put to the witness, according to the English translation at

17     least, is incorrect.  The English translation we have reads that he was

18     punched in the face.  There's no mention of slapping.  And it doesn't say

19     anything being slapped or punched just a couple of times.  But that's

20     what has been put to the witness at the moment.  He has been told that

21     the statement contains those words.

22             So I wonder if we can clarify this.  At some point, perhaps if

23     the B/C/S is read and then that's translated.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] That's page 3 of your statement.  It begins with

Page 12011

 1     the word "Immediately," "Odmah."

 2             MR. DOBBYN:  Sorry, can you direct me to where on page 3 that is?

 3     I'm looking at page 2.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.

 5             MR. DOBBYN:  It states on page 2:

 6             "I explained to him who had sent me -- or, rather, no one had

 7     sent me, and he started punching me in the face right away."

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct.  I'm sorry.  It's page 2 of the

 9     Serbian transcript as well.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] You see, sir, on page 2, halfway down the page,

11     it begins with the word "Odmah."

12             There is a reference to the 3rd or 4th of March, and then it

13     says:

14             "He started immediately to question me as to who had sent me to

15     guard duty."

16        A.   No, I said he started asking me, Who sent you and where are you

17     going.

18        Q.   I'm not interested in that question, sir.  In this statement you

19     said, at least that's how it was recorded in the statement before the

20     investigating judge, that Hrsum immediately started beating you with his

21     hands on the face.

22        A.   It comes after that.

23        Q.   With a hand means an open hand.

24        A.   This is also with a hand.  You can have it in a clenched fist or

25     an open hand.

Page 12012

 1        Q.   So you mean it was a punch?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you complain to anyone about this mistreatment that you had

 4     undergone on the 3rd or 4th of March, 1992?

 5        A.   Yes.  I complained to my nearest and dearest and my neighbours.

 6     I did not dare complain to the authorities, lest I be subjected to even

 7     worse things.

 8        Q.   According to your statement, you were mistreated by a member of

 9     the MUP, the police.  Why did you not approach the Ministry of the

10     Interior to ask for an explanation or indemnity?

11        A.   Well, if the policemen belonging to the Ministry of the Interior

12     arrested me in the way I described in my statement, whom was I supposed

13     to approach to ask for further protection?  We did ask for protection,

14     and then we received a final answer, as I said yesterday.  They did not

15     want to live with us Muslims in Pale.

16        Q.   Sir, I'm begging you, please, to concentrate and answer my

17     question.

18             Pale is 20 kilometres away from Sarajevo?

19        A.   20-something.

20        Q.   The Ministry of the Interior is in Sarajevo.  Why did you not

21     approach the Ministry of the Interior to register that incident, if

22     nobody else did that?

23        A.   Those were police administrations in Pale and in Sarajevo.

24     Whatever I'm supposed to complain about, I was supposed to do it in my

25     own police station in my place of residence.

Page 12013

 1        Q.   But if the policemen from that police station in your place of

 2     residence mistreated you, you should have gone to the Ministry of the

 3     Interior, and the minister was Alija Delimustafic.

 4        A.   You are now going into politics, and these politics had led to

 5     the war in the first place, and what happened, happened.

 6        Q.   Did you know that the minister of the interior of the Socialist

 7     Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, on 3rd and 4th of March, 1992,

 8     was Mr. Alija Delimustafic; yes or no?

 9        A.   Yes, I did know.

10        Q.   And you still did not report the incident?

11        A.   No, I did not.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is it your position that the witness was not

13     subjected to mistreat upon his arrest?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, that is not my position.  I'm just -- the point

15     of the question was Mr. Dobbyn's question and confirmation by this

16     witness that Mr. Malko Koroman didn't act upon it, upon allegedly seeing

17     his bruises or knowing that he has been maltreated.  And that is why I'm

18     exploring with the witness whether he took the -- took any -- any steps

19     to report that to the Ministry of Interior in March 1992, and he said he

20     didn't.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what would the purpose be of exploring

22     whether the witness, the victim himself, took any steps to report the

23     mistreatment to the minister?

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, he -- if -- if the immediate

25     superior in the police station didn't took [sic] appropriate steps, he

Page 12014

 1     had the opportunity to go up and report to the ministry, and the ministry

 2     should -- would, I assume, take any -- some measures against the --

 3     against the -- the chief of the police station.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Exactly.  But the fact remains that he was

 5     mistreated, and so what more is there to --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  But, Your Honours, if he didn't, then

 7     presumably he believed that -- that he has done something wrong and maybe

 8     he wasn't mistreated in a way he is representing it.  Because if he was,

 9     he would have probably taken this matter to the -- to the ministry.  That

10     is our position.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And hence my original question:  Whether you're

12     disputing the fact that the witness was in fact mistreated.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't dispute that he was mistreated.  I don't

14     have the reason to dispute that.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, in your evidence yesterday you claimed that

16     you had been informed that late Hrvo Fehim had committed suicide, but you

17     did not believe it because there were no traces of that.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You remember that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And then you said the police provided security at the funeral so

22     you couldn't see the body.

23        A.   I didn't count them then, but I think there were nine or ten

24     armed policemen escorting the funeral ceremony.  And when we approached

25     to take the coffin down, they trained weapons at us.

Page 12015

 1             We did not stop.  We took up the coffin.  We didn't even expect

 2     them to shoot.  But why they took down their weapons and trained them at

 3     us, I don't know.  Anyway, we took the coffin towards the cemetery.

 4        Q.   But you said yesterday the body was not revealed.

 5        A.   I meant it was not unbuttoned.  The clothes were not unbuttoned,

 6     so we couldn't see the body.

 7        Q.   If you didn't do that, then how could you see if there were any

 8     traces?

 9        A.   Well, you can see the neck, anyway.

10        Q.   Very well.  How do you know, then - and that's what you said to

11     the Prosecutor on page 2121 of yesterday's transcript -- sorry,

12     page 21.1 - you said there was no investigation into the death of

13     Hrvo Fehim.  How do you know that?

14        A.   There was no investigation into his death, into the death of

15     Nasko Smaic, Izet Jasarevic, Alija Jusufovic.  In none of these cases had

16     there been an investigation into their killing, and they were all killed

17     in the prison.

18        Q.   Which prison do you mean?

19        A.   The one in the cinema hall next to the police station.

20        Q.   How do you know there had been no investigation?  If they were

21     killed in the prison and you were not in the prison, how do you know that

22     there had been no inquiry?

23        A.   It couldn't have happened without us hearing about it.  The

24     investigators would have come to the house of the dead people or the

25     neighbouring houses.  That would have been logical.

Page 12016

 1        Q.   In that case, that's a logic I don't understand.

 2             You were talking about that cinema hall.  Was there any other

 3     prison in the territory of Pale that you know of?

 4        A.   I'll tell you.  As far as I know, every police station in the

 5     world must have premises for detention on the same premises.  In the same

 6     way, the station of Pale had one.  I had never been to such a room myself

 7     because I was held in the office and in the hallway next to it.  Those

 8     people had been detained in the cinema hall.  I know that the cinema hall

 9     was a place where they took people who had been arrested and people were

10     held there.  I don't know of any other prison.

11        Q.   But in the same way you know about the cinema hall, would you

12     have known about other prisons that existed while you were in Pale.

13        A.   I don't know of any other.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

15     tender this statement the witness gave in 1995.  He discussed it

16     yesterday and today, and he stands by that statement.  So if there is no

17     objection, I would like to tender it before I show him the next document.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you have the 65 ter number?

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D03 -- just a moment.

21             1D03-4106.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D329, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, am I to understand from your last

25     line of questions that you're challenging adjudicated facts --

Page 12017

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE: -- 1312 and --

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  1311 and 1314.  I'm persuing that line now --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I want to show the witness another --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic, please continue.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

11             [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown P990.

12        Q.   Sir, I'm about to show you the aerial photograph again, the

13     photograph of the centre of Pale, and I will ask you to comment when I

14     ask you a question.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Tell me, sir, can you -- you remember that yesterday you marked

17     the SJB yesterday and the cinema hall, and the place from which -- or,

18     rather, where allegedly Karadzic gave his speech and the buses.  You

19     marked that on the photograph yesterday; remember?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Tell me, do you remember where the sports centre of Pale is?

22        A.   Well, we can see the sports ground.

23        Q.   But was there a gymnasium of sorts?

24        A.   Yes, as part of the school.

25        Q.   Can we see it in this photograph?

Page 12018

 1        A.   The elementary school?  I can't see the elementary school in this

 2     photograph.

 3        Q.   Tell me -- and the cultural centre?

 4        A.   Well, here it is.

 5        Q.   What's -- what is this cultural centre?  Can you please mark its

 6     location.  You will be given a pen by the usher.  But I see that you know

 7     what to do anyway.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Please place a number 1 there.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   So this is the cultural centre.

12             And that is the place where you said yesterday Karadzic gave his

13     speech when you heard him?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is this it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So, in this photograph, sir, we cannot see the gymnasium that

18     belonged to the school.  I believe it is to the right.

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And what was there in this cultural centre in 1992?

21        A.   In early 1992, the Srna TV moved in there, but also the

22     Government of the RS.  How long they stayed there, I don't know.  When I

23     left, they were still there.  Later, they built government facilities at

24     Korane, and they built one-storey buildings there.

25        Q.   So in this culture centre which you marked with the number 1

Page 12019

 1     where you say Karadzic gave his speech, that was the headquarters of the

 2     Srna News Agency of the RS and the seat of government while you were

 3     there?

 4        A.   There were antennas, and I thought it could be TV.  But those may

 5     have been antennas for government communications or something.

 6        Q.   All right.  But certainly you are sure that there was no prison

 7     in that culture centre.

 8        A.   No, there wasn't.

 9        Q.   And the same goes for the gymnasium, I suppose.  You would have

10     known if there had been a prison there.

11        A.   I know that not far from the school, behind it, there was a

12     gymnasium for the elementary school pupils, but I don't know of a prison

13     there.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we mark this document to be

15     tendered.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D330, Your Honours.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I understand your concerns, but there

20     are different markings on the previous document because there's four

21     other issues -- or -- or buildings marked on that -- on that particular

22     document.  And this document we will use to challenge

23     the Adjudicated Fact 1314.  That is the purpose of -- of this exhibit.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But the same building is marked on two different

25     pictures.  It would seem to me that one photo would be enough, showing

Page 12020

 1     where the building is.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I -- I certainly cannot disagree with

 3     Your Honours on that.  It's ...

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let's move on.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, let me ask you one thing.  Do you know

 7     where Donja Vinca in the Pale municipality is?

 8        A.   You mean the village?

 9        Q.   Yes, the village.  How far is it from Pale, from the place where

10     you lived?

11        A.   Just a minute.  35 kilometres.

12        Q.   Do you know that the village was shelled somewhere in the summer

13     of 1992?

14        A.   That's possible.  I didn't know that.  But do you know what kind

15     of village it is, who lives there?

16        Q.   I don't.

17        A.   Muslims.

18        Q.   Very well.  So you have no information about it.

19             Tell me, yesterday in your evidence you mentioned trucks with

20     people from Bratunac that you saw, and you marked them on -- in that

21     photograph, and you spoke to the drivers?

22        A.   No, I didn't speak to any one of those people.

23        Q.   At any rate, you know that the trucks with those unfortunate

24     people were brought to Pale.  You know that.  And you were present?

25        A.   I know that, and I heard -- or I witnessed that by chance, and I

Page 12021

 1     later on told myself, Why on earth was I there at all?

 2        Q.   You know that those people spent barely two days in Pale and they

 3     moved on to the territory controlled by the Muslims.  Do you know that?

 4        A.   No, I don't.  I don't know what happened with these people later.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise.  Tell me, yesterday during the

 6     examination-in-chief, there was a question about the Crisis Staff and the

 7     participation of Muslims in the activities of the Crisis Staff of Pale.

 8     And you said, I believe, that you knew nothing about that; namely, of the

 9     presence of any one Muslim in the Crisis Staff.

10        A.   That is correct.  And it wasn't possible for any Muslims be to a

11     member of the Crisis Staff.

12        Q.   Do you know Asim Zec?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Do you know that Asim Zec was president of the Crisis Staff of

15     Vrace?

16        A.   There was never a Crisis Staff in Vrace.

17        Q.   Do you know the late Alija Prazina, from Hrenovica?

18        A.   I heard the name, but I don't know the man.

19        Q.   Have you heard of him being the president of the Crisis Staff of

20     Hrenovica?

21        A.   No, I haven't heard of that.

22        Q.   You know who Ahmet Palo is?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   Ahmet Palo was president of the SDA of Pale and the

25     vice-president of the municipality, correct, in 1992?

Page 12022

 1        A.   Yes, early on.  When the parties sort of established municipal

 2     government.

 3        Q.   But, in 1992, he was vice-president of the municipality.

 4        A.   Yes.  But he was really a puppet.

 5        Q.   But he was president of the SDA committee in Pale.

 6        A.   Well, he was close to that party.  But let me tell you, I wasn't

 7     a member of the SDA.  I wasn't really familiar with the positions, but --

 8     but I saw that they were all carried off by the current.

 9        Q.   You spoke about the campaign of collecting weapons in Hrenovica.

10     That was in mid-May 1992?

11        A.   I cannot confirm the day, but it was in May.  I believe it was in

12     the first half.  I may have made a mistake mentioning the date because I

13     can't remember the exact date.

14        Q.   Very well.  It's a fact that the patrol in which there were two

15     police officers -- or, rather, where two police officers were killed and

16     five injured, that this incident happened immediately before that

17     campaign or during that operation; correct?

18        A.   The police officers came to harm during that operation, but, sir,

19     that wasn't a patrol that collected weapons.  That was a military

20     operation.  You may have the documents about it.  And the documents read:

21     military operation.  Military operations are not conducted for collecting

22     weapons.  Everybody knows what military operations are for.

23        Q.   And after that operation, you said that Mr. Malko Koroman with

24     tears in his eyes appeared on TV and said that the war had come to Pale,

25     and he appealed to non-Serbs to return their weapons; correct?

Page 12023

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Tell me about these persons we mentioned a short while ago:

 3     Nasko Smaic, then Jasarevic, of who you said that they were killed in

 4     prison.  Do you know if they were arrested during that operation or on

 5     some other occasion?

 6        A.   They didn't live in Hrenovica.  They lived in the urban part of

 7     Pale municipality.

 8        Q.   How do you know, sir, that they were killed in prison?  Where did

 9     you get that information?

10        A.   I went to the funerals.  Didn't I say yesterday that volunteers

11     were sought to carry out the body of Fehim Hrvo from the cinema hall.  I

12     said that when I sat on the bus I saw that there was -- they were digging

13     a pit in the graveyard.  And then there was Nezir and Alija Jusufovic and

14     Nasko Smaic.  Only Nasko Smaic was buried at Majdani, not in the centre

15     part of Pale.

16        Q.   Sir, these are criminal proceedings, so we must be very clear.

17     If I understood you correctly, you were present at the funeral of

18     Fehim Hrvo?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As for this man Jasarevic, you saw that from the bus.

21        A.   Yes, from the bus.

22        Q.   That he was being buried?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And Nasko Smaic, you only heard of him.  You weren't present and

25     didn't see?

Page 12024

 1        A.   Yes.  On that day, I looked from my house.  The body was being

 2     transported, and five or six people were going toward the cemetery.  And

 3     I couldn't go because I didn't dare move about.

 4        Q.   But how did you get the information that they were killed in

 5     prison?

 6        A.   Nasko Smaic was first taken to prison and then released.  On the

 7     same day, they took him back to prison, though, and he didn't come out of

 8     it alive.

 9        Q.   And that's what you heard?

10        A.   Yes, I heard as much.  But it happened.

11        Q.   You also heard about this Jasarevic.  You weren't in prison?

12        A.   No, I wasn't, but I saw the man being buried.  And he was -- he

13     had been taken to prison because he had destroyed his shop.  He didn't

14     want to give it up to anyone else, and that's why he was taken to prison

15     and killed there.

16        Q.   Very well.

17        A.   And his shop was at Korane.

18        Q.   Sir, you say that you couldn't leave your house and you saw

19     that -- these five or six people on -- in the funeral party.  How could

20     they leave their house?

21        A.   I didn't dare leave my house and move -- I didn't say I couldn't

22     move about Pale.  I saw those people from Bratunac.  How could I have

23     seen them otherwise?  I didn't lock myself up in the house.  You can't

24     put that to me.

25        Q.   So you moved about Pale?

Page 12025

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, since I saw these things.  But I couldn't leave my --

 2     the boundaries of my own local commune.  I couldn't go to another local

 3     commune.

 4        Q.   And what was your local commune?

 5        A.   Pale.

 6        Q.   If you were not able to go to other local communes, then how did

 7     you come to testify that in the local commune of Korane the sale of goods

 8     to Muslim was forbidden?

 9        A.   The people next door had a flat in Korane.  He built a house next

10     to mine.  And when his children found it too hard to live up there, they

11     moved in with the father.  They said that they read those signs on shops

12     and ran away to their father's house.

13        Q.   So you didn't see that; you just heard of that?

14        A.   These people saw it with my -- with their own eyes.  It's as good

15     as myself seeing it.

16        Q.   Very well.

17             If you can remember, when did Nikola Koljevic come to that

18     meeting with the representatives of the Muslim community and allegedly

19     said that the Serbs did not wish to live with you Muslims?  When was

20     that?

21        A.   You know, even if I noted down the dates and kept a diary, it's

22     still not certain that I would have remembered the correct date.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, I would remind you that you have

24     exhausted the hour that you had requested.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I made the -- obviously not a

Page 12026

 1     very good estimation, and I'm having problems with the witness explaining

 2     the --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  How much time -- how much more time do you --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I assume one hour more I would need.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm really sorry, but ... I will try my best to

 7     shorten it as much as possible.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Roughly, please.  If you can't remember, you

11     can't remember.  We'll move on.

12        A.   It was in the month of June, but which date I can't tell you.

13        Q.   So June 1992?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Very well.  On June 4, after this operation in Hrenovica when

16     some policemen were killed, others were wounded in mid-May, on the

17     4th of June, 1992, more than 60 Serb soldiers were killed in an ambush at

18     Zlovrh on the road to Zepa; do you remember that?

19        A.   You go on about dates, and I told you a moment ago that I had

20     never thought I would have to talk about these things before such an

21     august international Court.

22             Zlovrh I know, is a place name; but that battle was not at

23     Zlovrh, and it was not for the capture of Zlovrh.  I just happened to

24     see, when I was going to attend a funeral.

25        Q.   I appreciate your effort to explain, but I'm just asking you if

Page 12027

 1     you know that sometime in the beginning of June about 60 Serb soldiers

 2     were killed.

 3        A.   I don't know the exact number.  I know a lot of them were killed.

 4        Q.   It is a fact that most of these people were from Pale; they were

 5     citizens of Pale municipality?

 6        A.   Yes, many of them were.

 7        Q.   And you testified that Karadzic had come to attend that funeral.

 8        A.   What I was talking about was not a funeral.  It was some sort of

 9     rally or a meeting or whatever you want to call it.  Funerals take place

10     at cemeteries.  I did not attend.

11        Q.   It was a memorial service of some sort?

12        A.   All right.

13        Q.   And you told us Karadzic came to that funeral, and he first

14     called for tensions to be diffused, and those tensions ran high, I

15     suppose?

16        A.   No.  Karadzic was not calling for things to calm down.  He was

17     trying to ease the pain of the families.  And I have to add:  There was

18     one woman who, in all likelihood, calmed those people down who lost their

19     family members and -- by saying, These Muslims here are absolutely not to

20     blame that my son got killed.  Why were they going to Zepa?  What for?

21             I don't know that woman.  I know her son was killed.

22        Q.   You will agree with me that the tension was very high; the

23     situation was very tense?

24        A.   It was catastrophic.

25        Q.   And you say that on that occasion, in that catastrophic

Page 12028

 1     situation, as you call it, that was very tense, Karadzic said that by

 2     attacks Muslim houses, you protect Serb ones?

 3        A.   He did.

 4        Q.   Doesn't it sound illogical to you that after such a statement

 5     made by Radovan Karadzic, nobody set out to attack Muslim houses that

 6     very moment at Pale?  In such a situation that was, as you said,

 7     catastrophic, the tensions ran high, many people had lost their children,

 8     40 of them, and then he comes out with a statement like that.  Wouldn't

 9     the crowd run wild and set out to destroy Muslim houses?

10        A.   I'll tell you, and you will understand doing your job you must

11     have insight into other municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I

12     have to tell you this --

13        Q.   Sir, please, leave alone other municipalities.  We are talking

14     about Pale.  You said you heard Karadzic say these things.  It's a fact

15     that not a single Muslim house was attacked on that day.

16             I'm asking you:  Is it logical that this didn't happen, after

17     these words by Karadzic?

18        A.   I stand by what I said.  Karadzic did say that.  Now, why weren't

19     we attacked?  I really cannot tell you why.  I don't have the answer.

20        Q.   In your statement you gave before the investigating judge in

21     Sarajevo in 1995, you made no mention of the fact that Karadzic had

22     visited and made such a speech.  And, still, it must have been etched in

23     your memory, since you remember it to date.  And you didn't mention it in

24     your evidence in the Krajisnik case either.  It's for the first time this

25     year, in April, at the trial of Radovan Karadzic that you told this

Page 12029

 1     story, that Karadzic had come to the funeral and stated what he stated.

 2        A.   Are you saying I'm not telling the truth?

 3        Q.   It's not up to me to evaluate your evidence.  I'm just asking you

 4     for an explanation.  How is it possible that you did not mention it in

 5     1995 or in 2004 or at the Krajisnik trial, but you mention it for the

 6     first time almost 20 years later, this April, testifying in the Karadzic

 7     trial?

 8        A.   It's not the first time.  Karadzic uttered these same words in

 9     other places as well.  If you have an opportunity to look at video

10     footage, you will hear Karadzic saying these very same words in other

11     places.

12        Q.   Are you trying to say that Karadzic said the same thing in other

13     municipalities?  And then you inferred that he must have said it at Pale

14     as well.

15        A.   No, that's not what I'm trying to say.  I'm telling you what I

16     heard.

17        Q.   But you still haven't answered how it is possible that you

18     mention this only 20 years later for the first time.  And it's rather

19     important, isn't it?  That's what you haven't answered.

20             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, I'd like to intervene at this point

21     because it's being put to the witness that he's never mentioned this

22     before.  And, in fact, it is referred to in his testimony in Krajisnik.

23             I point to transcript page 5342 where he talks about Mr. Karadzic

24     giving a speech to the population outside the TV building in Pale.  It's

25     true that he doesn't give the content of that speech in that part of the

Page 12030

 1     transcript.  He wasn't asked about the content of the speech, but he

 2     certainly refers to Mr. Karadzic being there and giving a speech.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, it's the contents we are

 4     talking about.  It's not -- that's the whole issue.  What Karadzic says

 5     is the -- is the issue here.

 6             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, that may be the issue, but that's what

 7     should be put to the witness, about the content.  What's being put to him

 8     is that he's never mentioned any such speech at all.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

10        Q.   So in 1995 you did not mention it at all, that Karadzic had been

11     to Pale; and in Krajisnik you mentioned that he had visited, you didn't

12     say what he said; and only in April 2010, you testified in Karadzic, and

13     here, yesterday, saying that he made that statement.

14             I'm asking you to explain how it is possible that 18 years later

15     you mention this for the first time.

16        A.   I did not need to talk about that when I testified against

17     Krajisnik, because Krajisnik and Karadzic are not the same.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I see the time, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  I suppose, although we started a half-hour

21     late, it would be -- it would be easier to stick to the set times,

22     because I'm pretty sure that the accused would have been waiting in court

23     during the break in any event.

24             So we'll take the adjournment now.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.

Page 12031

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue, Your Honours?

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Sir, it is a fact, isn't it, that after these 40 soldiers were

 9     killed at Zepa, shortly after that, 14 Serb soldiers were killed at

10     Mount Trebevic?

11        A.   Possibly, but I don't remember.

12        Q.   In your evidence yesterday, you spoke about the Red Berets from

13     Knin.  The rumour was they were in Pale, but you've never seen them;

14     correct?

15        A.   I heard about the Red Berets for the first time from the chief of

16     police, Malko Koroman.  Before that, I didn't even know they were in

17     Pale.  But I saw them on the 2nd of July, when I set out in the convoy,

18     near the Panorama Hotel.

19        Q.   You testified here that Malko Koroman informed you they were

20     there, in Pale, and that, allegedly, he was not able to guarantee that

21     you would be safe from them.  And he didn't say what they had come to do,

22     but, based on what you had seen on TV, you knew that they had burned down

23     houses and killed people in Gospic, and you inferred what they were

24     capable of doing.

25        A.   Yes.  Malko Koroman said the Red Berets had come from Knin to do

Page 12032

 1     a job.  He didn't specify what job.  But what else could they do other

 2     than what they had done in Knin?  They had come to Pale from Knin.

 3        Q.   But the point is that you saw on TV the crimes they had committed

 4     in Gospic and Knin.

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   I think you mixed things up.  Knin and Gospic are almost

 7     ethnically pure settlements in Croatia, at least they were; correct?

 8        A.   If they were ethnically pure, these two towns, then why were

 9     those dead bodies strewn in the streets, and why were all those buildings

10     burned?

11        Q.   That's what I'm trying to tell you.  There was no killing or

12     burning in Knin or Gospic because they were -- they were almost

13     100 per cent Serb towns, and these things are you talking about you must

14     be confusing either with a different period or different towns.

15        A.   You are mixed up, not I.  I know what I saw on television.  I

16     know what the anchor-man on television was showing, was saying, while the

17     footage of these two towns was shown.

18        Q.   It is a fact, isn't it, that the situation in Pale, because of

19     the refugees, the war all around, and the killing of these soldiers and

20     policemen, was extremely tense?

21        A.   Yes.  For the Muslims, it was intolerable psychologically.

22        Q.   That is why you, representatives of the Muslim community, sought

23     meetings and guarantees of your safety?

24        A.   We didn't ask for that just after the killing of those people.

25     We had begged the chief of police and the president of the municipality

Page 12033

 1     many times before to find a way to go on living together in Pale.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown P1453.

 3        Q.   Yesterday the Prosecutor showed you this document.  It's a letter

 4     sent by the group of citizens of the local communes of Pale and Korane,

 5     dated 9 April 1992.

 6             It is their proposal, the proposal of these citizens of Muslim

 7     ethnicity, to deal with the newly created situation concerning the

 8     arrests of unarmed members of the Muslim community.  And then there's a

 9     list of proposals.

10             Do you remember commenting this document yesterday with the

11     Prosecutor?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 2.

14        Q.   You can see item 10 which reads -- and it's a proposal that the

15     Muslim submit to the Crisis Staff.  That persons and families who do not

16     feel safe in the territory of Pale municipality be allowed to leave the

17     area without hindrance and in an organised manner.

18             In parentheses there are the reasons for that proposal.

19             Can you see it?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   That is, as soon as 9 April, there was a proposal to make it

22     possible for the Muslims to leave Pale without hindrance and safely, and

23     organised -- in an organised manner.

24        A.   You're reading these documents, and you have your own position

25     with regard to them.  But when the first convoy left, I was a member of

Page 12034

 1     that delegation when we asked the president of the municipality,

 2     Starcevic, why those people had left, and he said they had broken the

 3     law.  But what had they done?  What kind of offence have they committed

 4     for you to transport them away?  And he answered, It will -- it will

 5     be -- it will be known.  And I said, But the same will be said of us once

 6     we leave, that we have broken the law.

 7             And that was his comment.

 8        Q.   Speaking of that first convoy, which time-period are you relating

 9     to?  Wasn't that late June?

10        A.   You are really annoying me with these dates.  In a situation like

11     that, you are doing whatever you can to save your families and your

12     nearest and dearest.  And you are now -- you now want me to give you an

13     exact date.  I really can't do that.

14        Q.   But you will agree with me when I say that certainly that first

15     convoy did not leave before the 9th of April, 1992; correct?

16        A.   I don't think it did.

17        Q.   Very well.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19     P1454.

20        Q.   This document, too, was shown to you by the Prosecutor yesterday.

21     I believe you said you had never seen this one.

22             This is the reply of the Crisis Staff to this previous document

23     dated 9 April, and it is dated 11 April, 1992.

24             It is addressed to the group of Muslim citizens.  And under 1 we

25     can see there is no reason for the Muslim population to panic and move

Page 12035

 1     out, and it also says that the Serbian municipality of Pale shall offer

 2     full protection to all citizens, whatever their ethnicity or religion.

 3             So this was in April.  And it's a reply to the previous document.

 4     As far as I remember, you are not familiar with this document.  You have

 5     never seen it.

 6        A.   You mean this one that we see?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   No, I haven't seen it.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Finally, can we show the witness

10     65 ter 2460.

11        Q.   It's a document of the Crisis Staff, that is, the

12     Pale municipality.  It's signed by Radislav Starcevic.

13             You said that Starcevic was president of the municipality; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now we see his first name, Radislav.  Does this help you?

16        A.   Well, probably that's what was his name.

17        Q.   This document deals with the change of residence of Muslim and

18     Croatian citizens.  Article 1 reads:

19             "Citizens of Muslim and Croatian ethnicity who wish to change

20     their residence can exercise that right with the agreement of and

21     permission from ..." et cetera.

22             It's a fact that under the laws of the former Yugoslavia if you

23     change your place of residence you were obliged to go to the SJB of the

24     place you're leaving and let them know that you're leaving and upon

25     arriving to your new place of residence you had to register with the SJB

Page 12036

 1     there.  Do you remember?

 2        A.   Yes.  When you change your residence, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   But we who were transported to Sarajevo never went to the

 5     Pale Police Administration to let them know we're leaving.  We were only

 6     put on buses, and we didn't know what would happen until we reached our

 7     destination.  Nobody, in fact, went to the SJB to let them know we're

 8     leaving.

 9        Q.   You see that it says in Article 2 that:

10             "The change of residence will be done in an organised manner.

11     Citizens will come to the public security station and personally

12     apply ..."

13        A.   No citizen applied for change of residence.

14        Q.   Very well.  That's what you know?

15        A.   That's what I know.  I didn't do it, and nobody else do it from

16     Pale -- did it from Pale.

17        Q.   Tell me, isn't the logic of an inter-ethnic conflict that members

18     of a certain ethnic group stick together.  Do you agree?

19        A.   First of all, I don't agree with conflicts.  If we Muslims has

20     wanted conflict, we wouldn't have sought co-existence, and we wouldn't

21     have asked the president of the municipality and the chief of the police

22     to bring us someone from the top ranks of government to make a

23     co-existence possible.  And as far as conflict is concerned, at least in

24     my municipality, there was no one Muslim who was in favour of conflict.

25        Q.   But your municipality is near Sarajevo, which is much bigger,

Page 12037

 1     with a much greater population.  And you will agree with me that it is

 2     possible that the situation in Sarajevo also reflected on Pale?

 3        A.   The municipality of Pale used to be a suburban municipality of

 4     Sarajevo; and these reflections you're mentioning, even know, we can see

 5     where the front line of the Serbs around Sarajevo was.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

 7     sentence.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I know.  But you will agree with me when I say that many Serbs

10     left Sarajevo?

11        A.   Yes, that's true.

12        Q.   Do you think that they left voluntarily?  I mean, Sarajevo.

13        A.   90 per cent of them did.

14        Q.   Tell me, since Pale is a suburban municipality, no doubt

15     real estate in Sarajevo is more valuable than in Pale.

16        A.   But there was real estate, valuable real estate in Pale too.

17        Q.   But, generally speaking, in a city it's always more expensive

18     than in the suburbs?

19        A.   You probably don't know Sarajevo.  In Sarajevo, too, there are

20     decrepit buildings, but there are also new buildings.  So you can't

21     compare these two.

22        Q.   You exchanged your house in Pale, that is, the house of --

23     belonging to you and your brother, with a woman who traded in her house

24     at Pofalici, which is in Sarajevo; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12038

 1        Q.   Yesterday you mentioned that some people swapped houses but

 2     others didn't.  They were unable to find persons to swap houses with;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   I don't believe that I commented that much on this yesterday.  I

 5     only said that whoever didn't swap their house, the position of the

 6     police was that they had to bring the keys to the police station.

 7     Whether or not anybody did that, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Tell me, how did you meet that woman?

 9        A.   She came to my door-step.

10        Q.   And when she did, she asked you, Do you want to swap houses with

11     me?  Is that so?

12        A.   She asked my brother.  I had my opinion, but my late brother was

13     elder, so I didn't want to come forward.  So, actually, my brother did it

14     all.  But I didn't oppose it because he was my elder brother.

15        Q.   So your late brother basically ran this whole business about this

16     exchange?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And when you were leaving in July -- I believe you said on

19     2nd of July?

20        A.   Yes, the 2nd.

21        Q.   You gave that woman your keys, and I suppose that she gave you

22     the keys to their -- to her house in Pofalici; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   We saw yesterday - I don't have to show you - the contract that

25     you signed then and had it certified by the municipality; right?

Page 12039

 1        A.   Yes.  But I have to comment again what I was saying yesterday.

 2     What kind of exchange is that?  If I must swap one property for another

 3     and without having seen the other, and what -- what I found there is a

 4     house that was half-destroyed by an artillery shell.  And, now, you tell

 5     me whether that was voluntary or involuntary.  And I never moved into

 6     that house because it was -- it was demolished.

 7        Q.   But, sir, it's a fact that - and you confirmed a minute ago that

 8     your late brother spoke with her - the house at Pofalici, if it had not

 9     been destroyed by an artillery shell, you would have moved into that

10     house at Pofalici temporarily?

11        A.   Well, I would have had to.  What else could I have done?

12        Q.   In the contract, which you signed with your own hand and your

13     late brother too, and the other party, this Dragica Subotic from

14     Pofalici, says that the parties to the agreement engaged to guard and

15     keep the house for temporary -- for a period of time until the cessation

16     of hostilities?

17        A.   Well, let me tell you:  Yes, I did sign that contract, and so did

18     my late brother and Dragica Subotic.  But in that situation, in the war,

19     I didn't believe that I would ever be in the position to claim my house

20     back.  I'm now describing to you the situation as it was then.  And I

21     didn't really read all the provisions of the contract.  This is my answer

22     to your question.

23        Q.   But it's a fact that, eventually, that that's what really

24     happened.  You got your property back.  And I suppose that Dragisa got

25     back her destroyed house at Pofalici.

Page 12040

 1        A.   Yes.  Thank God everybody got back their property.  And the state

 2     it was after the war, let me not comment on that.

 3        Q.   Tell me, sir, when you were leaving your house on the

 4     2nd of July, Dragisa was present, wasn't she?

 5        A.   Yes, she was.

 6        Q.   Did Dragisa prevent you from taking out anything from your house?

 7        A.   No, she didn't.  But what could I have taken but what I was able

 8     to carry with my two hands?  And where should I put it?  I only grabbed

 9     the most important things, a little clothing, and off you go.

10        Q.   It's a fact, sir, isn't it, that you left on a convoy, on buses,

11     in an organised manner, precisely for reasons of safety so as not to

12     travel in private automobiles because it was war; right?

13        A.   Most probably they were taking care of our safety, and we were

14     escorted by the police all the way, at least the convoy on which I left.

15     I cannot speak about the others, but I suppose that the others were also

16     escorted by the police.

17        Q.   When you say "escorted by the police," that means a police

18     vehicle went ahead of and behind the convoy accompanying the convoy;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the police saw you off to the check-point held by Muslim

22     forces?

23        A.   That's not the way it was.

24        Q.   How was it, then?

25        A.   They took us to the end of their combat lines, and then we had to

Page 12041

 1     cross the no man's land on foot.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3        Q.   We don't have the answer you gave on page 33, line 22.  I said:

 4             When you say the police escorted the convoy, that means that the

 5     police vehicle went ahead of the convoy and another police vehicle was

 6     behind the convoy?

 7             And I think you answered in the affirmative.

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   It's a fact that the police provided security to the convoy, for

10     safety reasons?

11        A.   For what reason the police escorted us, I cannot say, but they

12     did escort us.

13        Q.   Very well.  Sir, are you aware that some Muslims left Pale out of

14     fear over how Sarajevo would view their staying and continuing to work in

15     Pale?

16        A.   I don't know about that.

17        Q.   Do you know about a doctor, Senad, from the medical centre at

18     Pale?  I don't know his last name.

19        A.   I have no idea.  Senad, you say?

20        Q.   Do you know that Muslims, the Muslims who stayed in Pale, many of

21     them fought on the side of Republika Srpska?

22        A.   That could not have happened.

23        Q.   I put it to you, sir, that this convoy was organised in an

24     agreement with the other side, with the SDA party and its head for Pale,

25     Ahmet Palo.

Page 12042

 1        A.   Ahmet would not have been capable as a human being or otherwise

 2     to organise something like that.

 3        Q.   I have no further questions.  Thank you, sir.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Is it still the position of counsel for

 6     Mr. Zupljanin that they decline to cross-examine?

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.  We don't have

 8     the cross-examination of this witness.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination?

10             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honours.  I have just a few questions.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

12        Q.   Good morning again, Mr. Crncalo.

13             Now, first of all, you were asked several questions earlier today

14     about the existence or otherwise of detention centres in Pale.

15             MR. DOBBYN:  And I'd like to call up Exhibit P1465.

16        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, what you will see in front of you is the map of Pale

17     that you marked yesterday.  And you'll see the building that you marked

18     with number 2.  You described that as being a cinema.  And -- and you say

19     that was the only building you know that operated as a prison or

20     detention centre at that time.

21             Now, Mr. Crncalo, was -- was that cinema building, do you know if

22     it was ever used as a gym?

23        A.   It's possible that there's another section in that building.  I

24     didn't go into every room there.  But there is a part, a big part, that

25     is cinema, where tickets were sold and snacks; and there was a door on

Page 12043

 1     the left where I never went through.  And there was another door leading

 2     directly to the cinema hall where movies were shown.  It's possible that

 3     there may have been other parts of that building that I don't know about.

 4        Q.   Do you know whether this building, the cinema building, was ever

 5     used as a cultural centre before the other building you've located as

 6     number 3 on the picture?

 7        A.   I came to Pale to attend high school in 1963.  And, as a young

 8     man, I liked to go to the cinema.  I know I went there to see movies.

 9     Now, as a community hall or something else, I think this used to be an

10     old primary school that was used as a community hall, the one that I

11     encircled as a sports hall.  And then it was renovated, and social events

12     took place there, and cultural events.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry -- I'm sorry.  If I may be of assistance.

14     I don't think -- and I think it's important because 35, 16:  I don't

15     think that the witness mentioned a sport hall at all.  What he was

16     talking about was the -- the cultural hall.  And also in line 15:

17             Primary -- the old primary school that was used as a cultural

18     hall, the one that I encircled as a cultural hall.  And then it was

19     renovated, and there was social, cultural events.

20             Maybe you can clarify that with the witness.

21             MR. DOBBYN:  That is just what I was planning to do.

22        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, when you talk about this building that you

23     encircled, you said it used to be an old primary school that was used as

24     a community hall.  I just want to be clear, which building are you

25     referring to?  The building with which number on the map?

Page 12044

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Sorry, which of these buildings that you've encircled was the one

 3     that used to be an old primary school and was then used as a cultural

 4     hall.

 5        A.   The one with number 3 on it.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'll move on now to another point.

 7             You were asked some questions about the speech that

 8     Radovan Karadzic gave in Pale.  And you were asked as to why you had

 9     never given the details of that speech before, or at least not until

10     testifying in the Karadzic case.

11             Now, when you testified in Krajisnik and you mentioned that

12     Mr. Karadzic had given a speech in Pale, at that time, were you asked

13     what the content of that speech was, if you can recall?

14        A.   No one ever asked me before about the contents of Karadzic's

15     speech, when I mentioned he gave a speech at the cultural hall.

16        Q.   So until you were asked with -- asked by lawyers from the

17     Office of the Prosecutor related to the Karadzic case, until that point,

18     had you ever been asked for the exact content of that speech?

19        A.   No one ever asked me what Karadzic said at that rally, at that

20     meeting.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             Now, the final point I'd like to go over again with you is this

23     issue of the house exchanges in relation to you moving out of Pale.

24             MR. DOBBYN:  Now, could we please call up Exhibit P1464.  And can

25     we have page 2 of the English, please.  Remaining on page 1 of the B/C/S.

Page 12045

 1        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, do you see the entry for the exchange of your house

 2     at the bottom of the page?

 3        A.   I see it.

 4        Q.   And that's dated the 2nd of July, isn't it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   The 2nd of July is the date that you were moved out of Pale on

 7     the convoy, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, in -- when you testified in Krajisnik, and you talked about

10     the process of being moved out --

11             MR. DOBBYN:  And I'll just refer Your Honours and counsel to

12     transcript page 5347 of that transcript, which is part of his proposed

13     92 ter package.

14        Q.   Do you recall saying - sorry, I'll just find that - that

15     instructions would be posted up and -- for the Muslim population, and

16     they would be told which people from a particular area had to leave on a

17     convoy on which particular day?

18             Do you remember being told that?  Oh, sorry, and do you remember

19     testifying as to that?

20        A.   I remember when I testified about that.  There was an

21     announcement on a sort of post, stuck to a lamppost, designating where

22     the people should go to board the buses.

23        Q.   And do you recall when you found out that you were going have to

24     leave Pale?  Was it the day that you had to leave; was it the day before?

25     Are you able to remember?

Page 12046

 1        A.   We knew that we had to leave the day before.

 2        Q.   So is it correct, then, that when Dragica Subotic came to your

 3     house and said she wanted to have your -- to exchange your property, at

 4     that point you already knew that you had to leave Pale; is that right?

 5        A.   I knew I was leaving Pale the day before.  And the day we were

 6     leaving, we went to the municipality to sign the contract.

 7        Q.   And was it the day -- was that the -- the day that she first

 8     approached you to exchange your property?

 9        A.   She didn't come before.

10             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

11     questions.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Crncalo.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may just make a sort

15     observation.

16             I think we -- we are having a conflicting evidence in -- in the

17     last -- in the last two or three questions which Mr. Dobbyn posed.  And I

18     would ask kindly if Mr. Dobbyn can explore more.  Basically here is

19     the -- what -- what I see as a problem:

20             The witness testified that his late brother was in charge of

21     negotiating the exchange of the -- of the property.  Now, I think that

22     Mr. Dobbyn has confused the witness with his answers because -- because

23     the witness gave the answer that she came on the day when -- when they

24     were exchanging the keys and she moved into -- into their property and

25     they went into the bus, they boarded the bus.

Page 12047

 1             Obviously there has been a previous -- there must have been a

 2     previous contact between the -- his late brother and the -- and this lady

 3     that moved into their house.  So maybe -- maybe this can be explored by

 4     Mr. Dobbyn.  Because, like this, it would -- it wouldn't be very clear

 5     what is the evidence on -- on this issue by the witness.

 6             That is my observation, Your Honours.

 7             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, I'm not sure if you share that

 8     observation, but, in my view, the evidence does seem clear:  He found

 9     out -- he and presumably his brother found out the day before they had to

10     leave Pale that they, in fact, had to leave.  The day that they did have

11     to leave, they were approached by this woman and told that she wanted to

12     exchange houses with them.

13             That's what I see on the record.  What the -- what the witness

14     has said, I'm -- I'm not sure what exactly needs to be clarified beyond

15     that.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think, Mr. Dobbyn, it would be good to ask the

18     witness, because I -- I'm somewhere in between the two positions.

19             MR. DOBBYN:  Certainly, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Mr. Crncalo, I'm sure you've heard what Their Honours have been

21     saying and my learned counsel.

22             Now, before the 2nd of July, the day that you moved out of Pale,

23     do you know whether there was any contact between Dragica Subotic and

24     your brother, with regards to exchanging the properties?

25        A.   Once we found out that we had to leave, my brother had a big cow,

Page 12048

 1     and he said, What am I going to do with the cow?  I said, You have to

 2     leave it.  And he said, Do you think I could sell it to someone to get

 3     something for it, a bit of money?

 4             There was a crowd of people milling about, and he hadn't sold the

 5     cow.  The day came when we had to leave.  We were thinking, Where were we

 6     going go?  Where were we going live?  And, that day, a lot of people came

 7     to the street, which was called the 16 Muslim Brigade Street.  There were

 8     two Serb houses at the beginning of the street, and Serb refugees

 9     probably knew we were leaving.  So many people were suddenly there; you

10     couldn't pass through.  And as people were coming, they were trying to

11     get to the houses first.  And then this woman appeared, wanting to take

12     our house in exchange, and he said, Shall I give it to her?  I said, Swap

13     it; do something.  Then we went to the municipality, and we had to meet

14     this deadline.  We had to board the buses by 2.00.  Everything had to be

15     done by then.

16             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, does that clarify the matter?

17     Thank you.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Crncalo.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Crncalo, we thank you for your testimony before

20     the Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe

21     journey back to your home.  Thank you.

22             The usher will now escort you from the courtroom.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             MR. DOBBYN:  And, Your Honours, now that the witness has

Page 12049

 1     completed his testimony, I would move at this point to tender his 92 ter

 2     package which has 65 ter numbers 10390.01 to 10390.04.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you for reminding me that that's had to be

 4     done, Mr. Dobbyn.  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  The -- the documents will become Exhibit 1466.1

 6     through P1466.4, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Is the Prosecution ready with its next witness?

 8             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honours.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, would you please take the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  RADOMIR KEZUNOVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You may be seated.

16             Good morning to you, sir.  Would you begin by telling us your

17     name, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Radomir Kezunovic.

19             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your date of birth, and what is your

20     ethnicity, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on 1st of January, 1950,

22     and I'm an ethnic Serb.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your profession?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mechanical engineer.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Have you testified previously before this Tribunal

Page 12050

 1     or before any court in the -- in any of the countries in the former

 2     Yugoslavia in connection with these matter?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never testified before any

 4     court, international or national, in Yugoslavia or Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Well, you have been called as a witness

 6     by the Prosecution, and the procedure that is followed here, in common

 7     with most courts, is that the side calling you would have the first

 8     opportunity to ask you questions and then the counsel representing the

 9     accused would have that opportunity as well.

10             When counsel for the Prosecution who has called you have

11     completed any re-examination that they have arising out of questions that

12     the -- would have been asked by counsel of the accused, the Bench may

13     have questions for you.

14             You are scheduled to testify beginning today and into tomorrow,

15     Wednesday, and the Prosecution has indicated that they would spend about

16     two hours in examination-in-chief, and the -- counsel for the Defence

17     will correct me if I have the arithmetic wrong, but I think the combined

18     time that the Defence have asked for is two hours.

19             The Court ordinarily sits - for your purposes this week, we are

20     sitting morning - from 9.00 in the morning until 1.45 in the afternoon,

21     because we have to make way for other trials which use this courtroom.

22     But those sittings are not continuous, and indeed they do not extend for

23     more than an hour and a half for technical reasons having to do with

24     changing the tapes and whatnot.  And, during that time, witnesses can

25     take a -- have a comfort break.  But, of course, if there is -- before

Page 12051

 1     the ordinary time that we would rise to take a break, if you need to take

 2     an adjourn -- if you need to have a break, you would indicate that to the

 3     Trial Chamber and we would, of course, accommodate you.

 4             So if you have understood those -- that explanation that I have

 5     given, I would now invite Mr. Di Fazio to begin his examination-in-chief

 6     of you.

 7             Sorry, one -- one other small matter.  The -- you may have

 8     gathered that your testimony begins in the middle of a session, as it

 9     were, so actually we are scheduled to take the first break in your

10     testimony within the next 11 minutes.  And then we will have one more

11     session before we rise for the day.

12             Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14                           Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

15        Q.   In addition to the matters relating to your personal background

16     that the Trial Chamber asked you about, can you tell us if these details

17     that I'm going to list to you are correct.

18             You went to school and university in Sarajevo and graduated from

19     the university in 1974 with a degree in mechanic engineering.  Is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You started working at a place called the Famos factory, which is

23     in Hrasnica, which is a suburb or area of Sarajevo city?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   You started working there as a mechanical engineer, and you were

Page 12052

 1     promoted to chief of the development department there in 1990?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   In fact, you continue working to this day as -- at the

 4     Famos factory, but in Lukavica?

 5        A.   Yes.  There have been short breaks, though.

 6        Q.   Certainly.  For a period of time, and could you give us the time,

 7     the period of time, you were the mayor of eastern Sarajevo?

 8        A.   I was mayor of eastern Sarajevo from 2005 till 2009.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You did your military service in the JNA at a place

10     called Titov Veles in Macedonia, and that was in 1975 and 1976; correct?

11        A.   Yes, correct.

12        Q.   Now, during the course of your testimony, I'm going to be asking

13     you about a number of documents which are documents of or pertaining to

14     the SDS.

15             So the first question we need to sort out is this:  Were you ever

16     a member of the SDS?

17        A.   Yes.  I've never been officially a member of the SDS, but I was

18     in a certain position to which the SDS delegated me, such as president of

19     the Executive Committee in 1991 and 1992, as well as mayor of eastern

20     Sarajevo in the time-period I've mentioned, 2005 till 2009, but without

21     being a party member.

22        Q.   Were you ever on any SDS lists for the municipality of Ilidza?

23        A.   Yes, of course.  At the first elections in Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina, on the 24th of November, 1990, I was first on the list for

25     the Ilidza municipality.  I was on the list of the SDS for that

Page 12053

 1     municipality, Ilidza.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now can you please explain briefly to the Trial Chamber

 3     how it was that you came to be on list of SDS members for Ilidza?  What

 4     the circumstances were.

 5        A.   That's not a list of the SDS members; it's a list compiled by the

 6     SDS party.

 7             How it came about?  Well, actually it was a mere coincidence;

 8     namely, the then-representatives of the party, the SDS, in late 1990,

 9     were short of time.  On the last day, they could submit their lists for

10     the election in 1990; they didn't have enough members to register -- to

11     put them on the list for Ilidza.  Two people approached me - I knew one -

12     and said they had this problem and whether I agreed that my name be put

13     on the list of the party because there was the risk of the SDS being

14     without a list on the upcoming elections.

15             I agreed to be put on the list.  And, at that moment, I didn't

16     demand to be the first on the list nor was it offered to me.  But these

17     people who had come to make that request, at the last moment when they

18     were supposed to submit the list, they simply put my name at the top.

19     And I subsequently learned that I was the first on the list, but I didn't

20     oppose that, although I -- it wasn't any condition of mine.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thanks for that.  Following the elections, were you

22     appointed to any official position in the municipality of Ilidza?

23        A.   Yes.  After the elections, where the SDS fared second - the SDA

24     was the strongest party - but the SDS was the second in the

25     administrative structure the municipality of Ilidza, which meant that the

Page 12054

 1     president of the Executive Committee of the Ilidza municipality was a

 2     position that was given to the SDS.  And the president of the

 3     municipality was a position that was filled by the SDA.  They installed

 4     Mr. Mahmutovic.

 5             There was a formal contract between the administration and the

 6     Famos factory where I worked to the effect that I wouldn't attend my job

 7     at Famos during my term in office but when that expires I could return to

 8     my previous job at Famos.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thanks.  I want to ask you about some of the persons or

10     personalities who were involved -- elected to government in the

11     municipality of Ilidza.

12             Do you know a gentleman named Nedeljko Prstojevic?

13        A.   Yes.  Mr. Nedeljko Prstojevic was a member of the Executive

14     Committee -- or, rather, he was the secretary of the inspection

15     inspectorate.  It was a body of the Executive Committee, and I was

16     president of that committee.  I must add that I believe that, as soon as

17     then, he was president of the municipal committee of the SDS for Ilidza.

18        Q.   Do you know a gentleman named Maksim?  Maksim Stanisic?

19        A.   Yes.  I know Mr. Maksim Stanisic very well.  As a result of this

20     same elections, he as representative of the SDS, became president of the

21     Executive Committee at the level of the city of Sarajevo.

22             The city of Sarajevo, you may know, is made up of ten

23     municipalities.  And at the level of all these ten, there's the

24     administration that had an Executive Committee.  The president was

25     Mr. Stanisic, and one of these ten municipalities, Ilidza, I was

Page 12055

 1     president of the Executive Committee.  And Ilidza was, as I said, one of

 2     the municipalities that made up Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in the period of time that you were working in

 4     the government of the municipality of Ilidza, did you ever attend any SDS

 5     party meetings in Ilidza?

 6        A.   Yes.  Of course --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... okay --

 8        A.   I went there as --

 9        Q.   Following your election, how often would you go to -- to these

10     meetings?

11        A.   Well, I can say that I attended all meetings organised by the

12     municipal committee of SDS of Ilidza because that was my obligation as

13     president of the Executive Committee on behalf of the SDS and, in a way,

14     the -- the one person in the municipality of Ilidza who -- who had the

15     most prominent position for the SDS.

16        Q.   When you attended those meetings, did you ever become aware of

17     instructions being issued to the SDS in Ilidza from higher organs or

18     higher levels within the SDS?

19        A.   The SDS functioned the same way as all of the other political

20     parties.  It had its organisational structure at the top of which was the

21     president and then there was the Main Board and there was the -- there

22     were Municipal Boards.  And as any organised party, it had precise

23     instructions that were transferred to the level of Municipal Boards.

24     And, of course, taking part in these meetings, I was acquainted with this

25     basic organisational structure of the party and the way it functioned.

Page 12056

 1        Q.   You speak there about precise instructions being received at the

 2     level of Municipal Boards.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what sort of

 3     precise instructions they were, whether they were documents or faxes,

 4     standing instructions, visits from members of the SDS from higher levels

 5     within the party?

 6        A.   Well, it's hard to speak at general level, but I can say that,

 7     with regard to the fact that it was a newly organised party, that it

 8     didn't have a structure that had already been stream-lined.  Anyway, the

 9     instructions were mostly passed on orally from the members of the

10     Main Board, that is, people who were members of the higher bodies of the

11     party and who transferred that to the local levels to let them know what

12     the expectations were of the party from the local level.

13        Q.   Were you ever addressed by a gentleman named Ostojic from the SDS

14     Main Board?

15        A.   Mr. Ostojic is a resident of Ilidza, that is, a citizen of the

16     municipality in which I was president of the Executive Board.  And there

17     were frequent contacts between him and us at Ilidza.  I don't remember

18     any direct personal contact with him, but we did have some formal and

19     informal contacts with him as a party cell, and we learned about the

20     conclusions made at the higher party levels that we were supposed to

21     implement.

22             On the other hand, Mr. Ostojic was deputy prime minister, and the

23     prime minister at the time was Jure Pelivan.  Mr. Ostojic was his deputy

24     and in charge of information, as far as I remember.  So being a cabinet

25     minister, he was in a position to act in the municipality of Ilidza and

Page 12057

 1     pass on conclusions from his purview because he was member of the cabinet

 2     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   And his first name?

 4        A.   Velibor.  That was his first name.  He is dead now.

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:  This would be an appropriate time, if

 6     Your Honours, please.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So we take the break now and return in 20

 8     minutes.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MR. DI FAZIO:

14        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, you mentioned that this gentleman Mr. Ostojic

15     would occasionally address you or communicate with you at the Ilidza

16     municipal level; he, being on the SDS Main Board.

17             Did Mr. Jovo Jovanovic ever do the same?

18        A.   Mr. Jovo Jovanovic, at the time, was president of the town board

19     of the SDS as far as I remember, and in accordance with the logic of

20     things he occasionally came to Ilidza to take part in the activities of

21     the party and attend some meetings to learn about the activities.  And

22     that's why he occasionally came to Ilidza.

23        Q.   And that communication and transfer of information, was it just

24     one way, from the top down; or did your municipal Ilidza board also brief

25     him and such personality -- other personalities in the SDS hierarchy on

Page 12058

 1     events on the ground?  What was happening in Ilidza?

 2        A.   Well, yes.  It is logical for that communication to go two ways,

 3     and we did information about the decisions of the higher bodies of the

 4     party, and there was opportunities for the members of these higher bodies

 5     to become acquainted with the events at the local level - in this case,

 6     Ilidza - and which may necessitate the taking of political decisions that

 7     would be applied more generally and not only to Ilidza.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can the witness be shown 65 ter 1972, please.

10        Q.   Okay.  This document, it's clear what it is.  It purports to come

11     from the Main Board of the SDS, and it's addressed to Municipal Boards of

12     the SDS in Bosnia.  And it sets out operational guide-lines concerning

13     the holding of meetings of the local boards and the necessity for local

14     boards to remain in contact with the people, with households.  And it

15     purported to also attach a questionnaire which is not on the document.

16             My question is this:  Were you aware of any such instructions

17     concerning the holding of meetings, the weekly review of the situation,

18     the need for local boards to keep in touch with the people in specified

19     numbers of households?

20        A.   I haven't had the opportunity to see this document.  I cannot

21     speak specifically about it.  But, generally speaking, yes, there have

22     been activities of the party as outlined here.

23             I cannot say anything about any particular outcomes of this

24     document that we see on our screens.

25        Q.   Thank you.  When you say you haven't seen this document, you mean

Page 12059

 1     that you didn't see it back in the early 1990s but you've seen it since

 2     coming to testify?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4             MR. DI FAZIO:  Well, if Your Honours please, I would seek to

 5     either tender that document; if you're not with me on that, then I would

 6     ask that it be marked for identification.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that there

 8     are no grounds for tendering this document through this witness.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Di Fazio, apart from the lack of nexus, I'm not

10     sure I appreciate what is being -- for what purpose it's being tendered.

11             MR. DI FAZIO:  To establish the connection between local boards

12     of the SDS and the Main Board of the SDS and the communications and the

13     gathering of information and the passage of information up to the

14     SDS Main Board.

15             That's the -- that's the main purpose of -- of this document.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Save for the architecture of the -- perhaps

18     architecture is the wrong analogy, but the mechanics of how these levels

19     operated is -- doesn't it go without saying?  I mean, do we need a piece

20     of paper to lay that down?

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  Well, it does bolster that.  And it is evidence of

22     that, And that's the point I'm trying to nail.  But if Your Honours feel

23     that it's superfluous, I would ask that it simply be marked for

24     identification at this stage.

25             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... pending what?  We

Page 12060

 1     don't appreciate the relevance or indeed for this document, Mr. Di Fazio.

 2     And we decline to admit it.

 3             MR. DI FAZIO:  Very well, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   You mentioned that --

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:  Your Honours, just bear with me.

 6        Q.   You mentioned that there had been activities of the party as

 7     outlined here in the document.  Did your board actually -- actively seek

 8     out information about what was happening in Ilidza and specifically

 9     transfer that to other levels of the SDS further up the hierarchy?

10        A.   Well, I cannot speak about any particular activities that were

11     the outcome of this document that we've seen.  But the party did have

12     activities that relied on communication between the various levels of the

13     party.  And, of course, these were of interest to the local community of

14     Ilidza.

15             I cannot single out any particular event of this type.  That

16     would have flown out of this document that we've just seen, though.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can the witness be shown 65 ter 20, please.

19        Q.   This document is a decision on appointing a regionalisation

20     staff, and it refers to various members of that staff.  And you head it

21     as president.  And can you see that on the second page of the document of

22     the English, at least.  And you can see it on the first page of the

23     B/C/S.

24             The purpose of the document -- or, rather, of the -- of the staff

25     is to monitor the implementation of a decision which relates to - and I

Page 12061

 1     quote:

 2             "The disassociation of populated areas from one municipality and

 3     their incorporation into another municipality."

 4             Firstly, were you a member of any such regionalisation staff?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How did that come about?

 7        A.   To explain the genesis of the regionalisation staff, we would

 8     have to go back to that time.  I believe it was 1991.  Yes,

 9     September 1991.

10             After the population census which was conducted in April 1991,

11     and once events in Bosnia-Herzegovina started going their way, namely,

12     foreboding future misunderstandings, the parties, including the SDS,

13     started considering political moves, concrete moves, to be taken to ease

14     the situation, to reduce tensions.  And the ethnic structure of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina was one of the crucial problems in this respect.

16             The population census being completed, we used the information

17     contained therein to come up with an ethnic image of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18     I tried to restructure the then-Bosnia-Herzegovina from the top to the

19     bottom - and Bosnia-Herzegovina was still part of Yugoslavia then - in

20     order to prevent future problems.

21             The purpose of this regionalisation committee, or commission, was

22     to come by data that should be used as the foundation for a proposal

23     toward preventing potential problems in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

24        Q.   Thank you.  The document says that one of the members of the

25     staff was Mico Stanisic from Pale.  Is that the Mico Stanisic who later

Page 12062

 1     became minister of the interior?

 2        A.   I suppose so.

 3        Q.   Did you ever work with him on this particular staff?

 4        A.   Well, I can say that the staff -- or, rather, I don't remember

 5     its being constituted.  I don't remember being certified as a member of

 6     that staff.  Only the initial steps were taken, but it wasn't formally

 7     constituted.  And I don't remember a meeting attended by Mr. Stanisic.

 8     Actually, I barely know Mr. Mico Stanisic.  And we met not in the

 9     framework of this regionalisation staff, which never really met to

10     constitute it, but I met him informally on other occasions.

11        Q.   Can you remember when in relation to September 1991 you met him?

12        A.   Yes, I've been thinking since yesterday.  I remember a meeting

13     which was accidental in the -- in the office of the then-Speaker of the

14     Assembly Momcilo Krajisnik.  I can't remember how this accidental meeting

15     occurred, but I remember we met in that office with several people, and,

16     among other people, there was Mr. Stanisic.  I believe that was the first

17     time we met.  And he will probably remember that he and I and all the

18     others were listening to a presentation by a professor at the faculty of

19     economics, Aleksa Milojevic [phoen], about the structure of the city of

20     Sarajevo; as such, its urban and rural position, the structure of the

21     population in both the urban and the rural parts of Sarajevo.  And he

22     said that in the urban area the Muslim population was in the majority;

23     whereas, in the rural parts, the Serbs and the Croats were in the

24     majority, and what the implications of that were.  So we were listening

25     to that presentation, and it was in the context of what we discussed

Page 12063

 1     before.  It was a meeting where Mico Stanisic and I were practically just

 2     attendees.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.

 4     54, 20, I believe the witness specifically explained which kind of

 5     implications.  Naming where the professor came from, which faculty.

 6     Maybe this can be explored.

 7             MR. DI FAZIO:  Sure.

 8        Q.   You heard what Defence counsel said.  Did you mention anything in

 9     relation to where the -- which faculty the professor came from?

10        A.   You're asking me?

11        Q.   Yes, it was missed in translation.

12        A.   I said that I practically remembered the occasion when

13     Mr. Mico Stanisic and I met.  It was an informal meeting in the offices

14     of the then-speaker of the Assembly, and the professor was -- yes.

15             The faculty of economics in Sarajevo.  Aleksa Milojevic is still

16     a full-time professor of economics there.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe the witness said economic implications of

18     that situation.  That is what I was referring to.  "Economic

19     implications."

20             If he can confirm that.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.

22        Q.   Well, did you mention anything about economic implications in

23     your previous answer?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   What did you say?  Because we missed it.

Page 12064

 1        A.   I tried to remember that meeting.  In that context during that

 2     informal meeting, we were listening to the thoughts of Professor

 3     Aleksa Milojevic on the topic of what the then-structure of Sarajevo, its

 4     rural an urban parts, was and what are the implications for the economic

 5     life of the town of Sarajevo and what the city of Sarajevo should do.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Please instruct the witness to talk slower because

 7     this is really creating a problem, I assume, for the interpreters.

 8             MR. DI FAZIO:  I wasn't aware of any problem, but if that is a

 9     problem, then, witness, please just go a little slower so that the

10     interpreters have time.

11        Q.   Now, earlier you mentioned that you were going to use the census,

12     the results of the 1991 census, to do some work in relation to the duties

13     of this regionalisation staff.  How were you going to -- how -- what

14     precisely were you going to do?

15        A.   Well, first of all, I call the census -- is that census in 1991.

16     Regrettably, we didn't have any other in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that

17     census was an opportunity to gain an insight into the overall situation

18     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including the ethnic aspect and the entire

19     structure of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And, using this data, we tried to

20     analyse it for the purpose of formulating proposals that would be useful,

21     for eventually overcoming the situation that prevailed in Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina at the time.

23        Q.   You say "we." "We tried to analyse it," the census data, "for ...

24     formulating proposals."

25             Are you referring to the work of the regionalisation staff?

Page 12065

 1        A.   No.  I meant primarily, first of all, the municipality of Ilidza,

 2     since I, as the president of the Executive Board, was at the same time

 3     president of the commission for the census.  And I engaged a whole team

 4     in my Executive Board.  And the job of these people was to analyse the

 5     data derived from the census and, on that basis, try to formulate

 6     specific proposals that would be geared at changes in the administrative

 7     structure of the town of Sarajevo.  And that was a proposal that was to

 8     be adopted at the level of the city of Sarajevo and then, later, perhaps,

 9     after further analysis, be raised to the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   Was Predrag Bejatovic from Vogosca a member of the

11     regionalisation staff?

12        A.   I don't know the man, but I don't remember that he was a member.

13     Because that founding session of the board never took place, so I don't

14     remember the man.

15        Q.   Did you know any of these other gentlemen, apart from

16     Mico Stanisic who you've told us about, as being members of any

17     regionalisation staff?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Tell us about them, please.

20        A.   I know Mr. Prstojevic; I remember him.  Radislav Unkovic from

21     Novi Grad municipality.  Mico Stanisic I've already mentioned.

22     Mr. Slobodan Jovandic.  Jovandic, that's an architect in the institute

23     for urbanisation; I know him and no one else.

24        Q.   And did any of them do any work that you're aware of on a

25     regionalisation staff?

Page 12066

 1        A.   Preparations were done as a result of the census in a way that

 2     was agreed at the time:  Namely, that within the framework of the

 3     institute for city development, all this data should be agglomerated at

 4     the level of the city of Sarajevo; that it should be analysed in the

 5     institute, including one detail from that paper, ethnic maps of the city.

 6     And the man who was in charge, then, of this job in the institute was

 7     Mr. Jovandic, an architect, and he was supposed to transpose that onto

 8     visible maps.  And that was done, also at the level of the board, as

 9     preparation for the work of this committee for regionalisation.  But that

10     was also the end of the activities because no further work was done.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, I seek to tender the

13     document.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1467, Your Honours.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:

17        Q.   And you mentioned earlier a meeting that you had with

18     Mr. Mico Stanisic in Mr. Krajisnik's office, and you also said you didn't

19     know him very well.  Apart from that meeting that you've mentioned in

20     Mr. Krajisnik's office, did you ever meet with Mr. Mico Stanisic on any

21     other occasions that you can recall?

22        A.   Not that I remember.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Eventually, in 1992, did a Serb municipality of

24     Ilidza come into being?

25        A.   Yes.  The establishment of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza

Page 12067

 1     followed the establishment of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina in early January 1992, speaking of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3     And soon after that, the Serbian municipality of Ilidza was also

 4     established, meaning that a meeting was held where this was decided and

 5     verified that the Serbian municipality of Ilidza should be established as

 6     a result of a decision that had already been made at the level of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Just yes or no:  Did you attend that meeting?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  I was there.

10        Q.   Did you hold any position in the Serbian municipality of Ilidza?

11        A.   Yes.  In that Serbian municipality of Ilidza, I was elected

12     president.

13        Q.   Did it actually sit and conduct sessions in April of 1992?

14        A.   I cannot talk about April.  I cannot remember clearly what

15     happened in April, but I think that after that first session, where

16     people were elected to the main posts, I don't remember calling another

17     session as president of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

18        Q.   Thanks.  Can you quickly --

19             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can we quickly have a look at 65 ter 3087, please.

20     Thanks.  And if we could just please go to the B/C/S version, perhaps to

21     the last page -- second page, rather -- or the last page.

22        Q.   Is that your signature on the document?

23        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

24        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  This is dated 3 January of 1992, and it's

25     the decision to proclaim the municipality that you've -- Serbian

Page 12068

 1     municipality of Ilidza that you've just been talking about.  And it says

 2     that this happens partly as a result of the constitution, and partly as a

 3     result of the will of the Serbian People, and partly as a result of an

 4     instruction from the Main Board of the SDS dated 19 December 1991.

 5             Do you have any knowledge or memory of that particular

 6     instruction, number 079, of 19 December 1991?

 7        A.   Yes, I think that instruction was mentioned when we were making

 8     this decision.  But I don't think I held that decision on -- sorry,

 9     instruction on paper.  I didn't need it at the time either because all

10     the key protagonists in the establishment of the Serbian Republic of

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina attended this meeting as well, and that decision

12     by the supreme organs of the party and the then-Serbian authorities in

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina was conveyed to us, namely, that municipalities

14     were to be formed, in municipalities where the right conditions have

15     already been met.

16        Q.   So even though you may not have had the actual document,

17     instructions number 79 of 19 December 1991, the import, the meaning of

18     the decision, was conveyed to you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thanks.  The document says that the Assembly has got to consist

21     of Assemblymen from the SDS, presidents of local boards, or Assemblymen

22     of Serbian ethnicity who signed a statement.

23             You've told us you weren't in the SDS.  Did you sign a statement

24     in order to become a member of the Assembly, or you can't recall?

25             I'm referring there to -- to Roman numeral III, paragraph 3; can

Page 12069

 1     you see it there.

 2        A.   You see, as president of the Executive Board, I couldn't be an

 3     Assemblyman.  These two are not compatible.  There is a separation

 4     between the executive authorities and the parliament, and I was the local

 5     prime minister practically, so I couldn't sign a statement, nor could I

 6     become a member of that parliament.

 7        Q.   At the meeting where the Serb municipality of Ilidza was created,

 8     did Mr. Jovanovic, the Mr. Jovanovic -- Jovo Jovanovic that you spoken of

 9     earlier, did he attend?

10        A.   I really cannot be sure now.  I think he was there, but I can't

11     be sure.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender the document, if Your Honours please.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1468, Your Honours.

15             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can the witness be shown 65 ter 3088, please.

16        Q.   Is that your signature?

17        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

18        Q.   The document refers to Serbian volunteers under heading -

19     paragraph 1, number 1 - heading 1.  Who are these Serbian volunteers

20     being referred to there?

21        A.   This is January 1992.  These are Serbian volunteers who were, by

22     that time, already engaged and participated in the combat that was

23     drawing to an end in Croatia.  And they were people from the Ilidza

24     municipality; some of them I knew got killed, leaving families behind.

25     And, of course, their families approached us for resolution of their

Page 12070

 1     status and various benefits.  And in my role as president of the

 2     Executive Board of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza, I had to try to

 3     find solutions or make proposals how to help out these families.

 4        Q.   Okay.  It also says under number 3 that steps were to be taken to

 5     protect the interests of the Serbian People in Ilidza, which included the

 6     protection of workplaces and other spiritual and material assets in the

 7     Ilidza municipality.

 8             Do you know what the appropriate steps were to be, what was

 9     envisaged?

10        A.   As you can see, it was a draft decision.  We made an initiative

11     to have some measures adopted at a higher level.  And in January 1992, it

12     was a time on the eve of a very tumultuous event in Ilidza and in the

13     whole of the country; we were feeling the consequences of the war in

14     Croatia; and, of course, there was prevailing fear of the war spreading

15     to us.  And we were trying to draft proposals and take preventive

16     measures to stop the war from spreading to Bosnia-Herzegovina in the same

17     form.

18             MR. DI FAZIO:  I seek to tender that document into evidence if

19     Your Honours, please.

20             JUDGE HALL:  If it was only a draft which was never implemented,

21     the --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

23             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... are we missing

24     something?  Am I missing something, Mr. Di Fazio?

25             MR. DI FAZIO:  It is evidence of the commencement of functioning.

Page 12071

 1     It might have been a draft, but it was up for consideration.  Obviously

 2     they took time to create the document.  And it is evidence of this

 3     particular Ilidza municipality functioning to a -- at least to -- to that

 4     extent where they are considering draft decisions.  If you don't think

 5     that you would served by it, then ...

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Was it ever passed and adopted?

 7             MR. DI FAZIO:  I can ask the witness.

 8        Q.   Was it ever passed and adopted?

 9        A.   You're asking if the proposal was approved; it was.  But I don't

10     know of any consequences that this proposal may have had.  I don't know

11     that as a result of this proposal any decision was made at higher levels

12     of the party or Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  So the document remains an example of the

14     functioning and work of this particular municipality.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Except that the witness's answer, what he just

16     volunteered, answers the reservations that I have about accepting this

17     document in evidence.  Because -- it was -- it was the -- an example of

18     the -- of the formulation of an intention, but it didn't go any farther

19     than that.  Nothing happened as a result of it.

20             So therefore I don't see how, down the road, there is anything

21     that you can invite the Chamber to deduce from it.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  Other than the fact of the functioning of the --

23     of the -- of the Ilidza municipality, Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

24     Other than that.

25             I agree that the witness has already testified about the

Page 12072

 1     functioning and its setup and how it started to work.  This merely

 2     bolsters that.  It's that -- to that extent, it's not a ground-breaking

 3     document; but, to that extent, it corroborates his evidence.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  We're not persuaded, Mr. Di Fazio.

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:

 6        Q.   I asked you about the -- the Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

 7             Did there come a time when a Crisis Staff was created in Ilidza?

 8        A.   The Crisis Staff was established in Ilidza but not as a result of

 9     a decision by the Serbian Assembly or anything.  It happened as a result

10     of the events that started after the month of April.  The Crisis Staff

11     was set up, indeed, but it had nothing do with the activities of the

12     Serbian municipality of Ilidza.

13        Q.   How was it set up?  As a result of what, I should say, was it set

14     up?

15        A.   As a result of the new circumstances.  In May, as you know, there

16     was an escalation of the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the

17     party then instructed all Municipal Boards to go forward with organising

18     defences.  And Crisis Staffs were established as a part of that activity

19     throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, both in areas where Serbian

20     municipalities were organised and in other municipalities; in which case,

21     the -- the party apparatus took care of that, rather than the municipal

22     authorities.

23        Q.   You say the party issued the instructions for Municipal Boards to

24     go ahead and create Crisis Staffs.  When you say "the party," I know

25     you're talking about the SDS, but do you know what part of the party?  Is

Page 12073

 1     it the Main Board or some other organ within the party?

 2        A.   I cannot speak of specific decisions.  In any case, instructions

 3     came that in every municipality Crisis Staffs should be set up.  And

 4     every Municipal Board took steps to do that.  And in such a way, through

 5     the party the, the Crisis Staff of Ilidza was also set up.

 6        Q.   Were you a member of the Crisis Staff in Ilidza; and, if so, what

 7     was your position?

 8        A.   Yes.  Ex officio I was a member of that Crisis Staff.  It

 9     operated -- started from April, I think; and I was member of the Crisis

10     Staff until the movement when I resigned from all my posts in the party

11     and in the municipality which was in early May.  So I was a member of the

12     star for about a month.

13        Q.   And can you just be a little more specific about when the

14     Crisis Staff started to function.  You told us April, but do you know

15     when in April?  If you don't, that's fine.  But if you can give us a more

16     accurate idea ...

17        A.   I really cannot remember the exact date, but I think it was in

18     the beginning of April.  I don't know when.

19        Q.   Do you know a gentleman named Tomo Kovac?

20        A.   Yes, Mr. Tomo Kovac was commander of the uniformed police in

21     Ilidza municipality.

22        Q.   Was he a member of the Crisis Staff?

23        A.   Yes.  Tomo Kovac was a member of the Crisis Staff.

24        Q.   By virtue of what?  What reason was he a member of the

25     Crisis Staff in Ilidza?

Page 12074

 1        A.   Well, ex officio, he was a policeman.  It was traditional law

 2     enforcement activity.  And the Crisis Staff was supposed to take care of

 3     the security and safety in the municipality of Ilidza.  And that, by

 4     definition, was the job of the police.

 5        Q.   So because he was a police officer -- because he was the -- in

 6     the police, that was the reason why he was in the Crisis Staff; do I

 7     understand you correctly?

 8        A.   Precisely.  As police commander, he was member of the

 9     Crisis Staff.

10        Q.   I'm not going to ask you about every member of the Crisis Staff

11     in Ilidza but just one in particular.  Was a gentleman named

12     Ljubo Bosiljcic a member of the Crisis Staff in Ilidza?

13        A.   Yes, Ljubo Bosiljcic was a member of the Crisis Staff, if I

14     remember well; also ex officio because at the time he was deputy to the

15     National Assembly, actually the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He died

16     just ten or 15 days ago.

17        Q.   Okay.  Still talking about this period of time in February and

18     March - and I'd like to get through this quickly - you -- I'll lead you

19     to this extent:  You've mentioned in your statement that there was an

20     episode involving a flag in the municipality, erected above the

21     municipality building.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber about that

22     particular episode?

23        A.   It's a Serbian flag that was hoisted on the building of the

24     Assembly, and I want to say that this episode practically marks and

25     colours the atmosphere that prevailed in Ilidza and in the city of

Page 12075

 1     Sarajevo and further afield.  To explain this problem, I have to say that

 2     Tomo Kovac in the police, on the one hand, and people who represented

 3     the -- who represented the municipal authorities, the president of the

 4     municipality, Mr. Mahmutovic and I, we were trying at that time to

 5     return, to recover that atmosphere; and we expected and we were

 6     convinced, me most of all, that excalation of the conflict in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina is completely impossible and should not happen.  And

 8     the four of us tried to make an agreement to have that municipality, for

 9     which we were responsible, protected by our own activities, by our own

10     actions, from adverse events.  And we often found ourselves in situations

11     where we had to diffuse tensions in the municipality.  And in most cases,

12     we were successful.  And that's how it happened that adverse consequences

13     started in Ilidza later than in the rest of Sarajevo.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... okay --

15        A.   And that's how the Serbian flag, one day, alit upon the building

16     of the Assembly.

17        Q.   The Serbian flag was erected on -- above the municipal building

18     in Ilidza.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately when that event

19     took place?

20        A.   It will be difficult for me to mention a date.  I believe that it

21     was in mid-March or toward the end of March, 1992.

22        Q.   And this was a building that --

23        A.   It's the municipal -- municipality building.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And at the time, the police in Ilidza, had they split

25     and divided with Serbian police officers operating independently from

Page 12076

 1     their Muslim and Croatian counterparts?

 2        A.   Well, I cannot assert that explicitly, whether there had been a

 3     formal division.  But there was some policemen, Mr. Mljivic [phoen] and

 4     Mr. Kovac, they worked in the same building as I.  And we could all feel

 5     the adverse events in Ilidza.  I really cannot say whether there was an

 6     official division or split in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina because I

 7     don't remember.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thanks.  Did you approach Mr. Kovac about the presence of

 9     this flag; and, if so, briefly tell us what his response was.

10        A.   Well, yes.  I went to work and immediately noticed.  And I

11     reacted because it was not in keeping with the spirit of our agreement to

12     keep the municipality of Ilidza outside the scope of possible conflicts.

13     And I spoke to the commander of the station, Mr. Kovac, to have the flag

14     removed from the municipality building.

15             He explained to me it wasn't possible because the police hadn't

16     put the flag there and that the police basically couldn't remove it.  I

17     insisted that this be done and asked one policeman to be given to me, and

18     he did.  So, assisted by that policeman, I removed the flag.  And that

19     was the end of that episode with flying the Serbian flag from the

20     building of municipality which was, at the time, the municipality of

21     both -- over both Serbs and Bosniaks -- or rather, Serbs, Bosniaks, and

22     Croats.

23        Q.   I'll ask you now to look at another document, please.

24             MR. DI FAZIO:  65 ter 2350.  Perhaps the -- yes.

25        Q.   Now, I'll -- you can see what this document says it is.  It's

Page 12077

 1     not -- purports to be.  It's a list of members of the Main Board of the

 2     SDS.  And I want to take you through some of the names.  Tell us if you

 3     know them.

 4             Number one you obviously would know:  Dr. Karadzic; correct?

 5        A.   Correct.  Yes, I know him.

 6        Q.   And number 5 is a gentleman I think you've spoken about

 7     earlier --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

10        A.   Yes, that's the late Mr. Ljubo Bosiljcic, deputy.

11        Q.   And number 11, you do know him:  Bozidar Vucurevic?

12        A.   Yes, 11.  Bozidar Vucurevic.  He was -- at the time, he was the

13     president of the Municipal Assembly of Trebinje.

14        Q.   Velibor Ostojic; you've spoken about him this morning.  You

15     obviously know him.

16             And --

17        A.   [No interpretation]

18        Q.   -- number 31:  Mico Stanisic; you obviously know him.

19             Some other names, if -- on the next page of the English.  And I'm

20     looking at number 34:  Jovan Tintor; do you know him?

21        A.   Yes, Jovan Tintor is a well-known name.  He is from Vogosca, near

22     Sarajevo.

23        Q.   35, Savo Ceklic?

24        A.   Yes.  I knew him -- I didn't know him well, Dr. Savo Ceklic, but

25     it was a well-known name to me.

Page 12078

 1        Q.   Then the last three names, for the same of getting through this

 2     quickly:  Tomislav Sipovac, number 37; 39, Jovo Jovanovic; and 40,

 3     Petko Cancar.  Did you know them?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Were they all members of the Main Board of the SDS?

 6        A.   I really cannot say.  But as far as I remember, they should have

 7     been members of the Main Board because they were active and well-known

 8     people.  Most probably they were members of the Main Board.  At that

 9     time, certainly.  I can't see a date here.

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours, please, I would ask that this

13     document be marked for identification at least at this stage.  It may be

14     that -- possible to acquire further evidence about membership of the

15     Main Board of the SDS, and it would be a useful document from that point

16     of view.  And, of course, the witness has already spoken about it and

17     mentioned some of the people on it who he believes were members of the

18     Main Board of the SDS by virtue of their position.

19             So that, at least, would warrant, I suggest, marking it for

20     identification at this stage.

21             JUDGE HALL:  So marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1469, marked for identification,

23     Your Honours.

24             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can we now look at 65 ter 2351.

25        Q.   And, Mr. Kezunovic, I want to go through essentially the same

Page 12079

 1     exercise again once that's up on the screen.

 2             And in Cyrillic the numbers are:  Number 1, Radovan Karadzic,

 3     you've mentioned; and number 4, Ljubo Boskjcic, you've mentioned.

 4             Number 14, Sveto Lucic; did you know that person?

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. Sveto Lucic is a man from Pale whom I know, and I knew

 6     him then too.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And continuing, you've mentioned number 17,

 8     Velibor Ostojic.  What about number 18, Boro Sentic?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   Number 19 --

11        A.   Boro "Sentic;" this is a typographical error.  It's "Sendic" with

12     a D.  He's a well-known member of the SDS and a member of the Main Board,

13     and I was -- believe he was one of the very prominent members of the

14     party from Banja Luka, and he was very active for a long time.

15        Q.   Sendic.

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   Sorry -- Sendic --

18        A.   [No interpretation]

19        Q.   -- number 18; you know for sure that he was a member of the -- of

20     the Main Board.  It's not that you were -- [Overlapping speakers] ... or

21     not?

22        A.   Oh that.  No, I didn't say that.  I knew for sure that he was

23     member of the Main Board.  I just know Mr. Sendic, and I know his

24     activities.  But whether he was an official member of the Main Board, I

25     don't know because I have no grounds for claiming that.  I had no chance

Page 12080

 1     to see these documents.  But I suppose that was -- probably he was a

 2     member of the Main Board because he was a very prominent member of the

 3     party.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, you speak very fast, and I can hear

 5     from the interpreters that they have a hard time following you.  So

 6     please speak a little more slowly.  Thanks.

 7             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   And if the list continues with what is, on the face of it,

 9     supposed to be membership from 1991 -- and names that I want to run past

10     you there are Bozidar Vucurevic; you know that person?  Number 5?

11        A.   I apologise.  I can't see what you're referring to.  Number 5 ...

12     you mean the previous list?

13        Q.   No.  The list continues with a list of --

14        A.   Okay.

15        Q.   -- for 1991, and it starts -- it's the same document, but it

16     continues from 1991.  And the one -- the names I'm going to run past you

17     are from that second part of the document.

18             Starting with number 5:  Bozidar Vucurevic; do you know him?

19        A.   Yes.  I've already said who Mr. Vucurevic is --

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you may have, and I --

21        A.   -- and I said that most probably he was a member of the --

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, if I -- can you

23     repeat them?  I can't remember all of them, so it will be more efficient

24     to get through them quickly.

25             Number 7, Rajko Dukic; do you know that person?

Page 12081

 1        A.   All right.  Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   And number --

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Di Fazio, I think the shorter way of getting

 4     this information into evidence is probably to ask the Defence if any of

 5     this is contested.  Because if it's not, then let's just admit the lists

 6     and move on.

 7             Can the Defence identify whether they contest the information in

 8     these lists?

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are opposed to

10     introducing this document through this witness because this witness is

11     not a member of the SDS, nor is he a member of the Main Board of the SDS.

12     And he has explicitly said that he cannot state with certainty whether or

13     not the persons on the list are members of the Main Board of the

14     Serbian Democratic Party.  He supposes things, but he doesn't know.  The

15     only thing he said is that he knew some of these persons in person.  He

16     doesn't know them in the capacity of members of the Main Board, but he

17     knows them personally.

18             This is our basic objection, the basic objection of the Defence.

19     So we believe that, at this moment, this document cannot be introduced

20     through this witness, nor can we try to elicit details of -- about this

21     document from this witness, except for what he said, that he personally

22     knows Bozidar Vucurevic.  But that isn't of much use to us.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic.

24             I suppose we could MFI the document.

25             MR. DI FAZIO:  That's as far as I want to go, if Your Honours

Page 12082

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So let's do that and move on because this is a

 3     waste of time.

 4             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  So it's marked for identification.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1470, marked for identification,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             MR. DI FAZIO:  And I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Cross-examination?

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kezunovic, good afternoon.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   I'm Slobodan Cvijetic, and I'm Defence counsel of Mico Stanisic.

14     I'm going to ask you some questions.

15             Although you were not a member of the Serbian Democratic Party,

16     you could and should know that the SDS, at the beginning, during the

17     preparations for multi-party elections, in fact, was a movement of the

18     Serbian People, which, as it was claimed at the time, had assembled all

19     patriots and also people who were anti-Communists which was also said at

20     the time.

21             Do you remember that?

22        A.   Well, I couldn't totally agree with the way you put this.  I

23     didn't really observe anti-Communism, at least not that it wasn't that

24     pronounced.  But certainly the SDS was the largest political organisation

25     of the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina which was established last, after

Page 12083

 1     the SDA and the HDZ.  So, before the elections, they didn't have enough

 2     time.  So they had a hard time organising themselves to run at all.

 3             So, in that respect, you're right.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  You will agree with me, won't you, that

 5     such a party, in that initial appearance, one -- and later, when it

 6     entered government, basically cleansed its membership, introduced

 7     membership cards, and set up a genuine organisational structure once it

 8     became a relevant political factor in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Correct?

 9        A.   Well, I've already mentioned that the Serbian Democratic Party

10     was under time pressure to meet the deadlines to run in the elections,

11     and that was the 24th of November, 1991.  There were shortcomings in the

12     organisation of the party, but these shortcomings were -- could be

13     overcome later.  They had to organise and structure their membership.

14        Q.   Let me take you back to the documents showed to you by

15     Mr. Di Fazio toward the end so we can confirm what we are a speaking

16     about.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let us see 65 ter 2351 again,

18     please.

19        Q.   It's a list, at least that's what it's called, of the Main Board

20     of the SDS for 1990.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And let us turn to page 2.  Yes.

22     And let's start with 1991.  Let's go to the lower half of the page.

23     That's right.

24        Q.   We reviewed this document together.  That's why I can ask this

25     question directly to you.

Page 12084

 1             Did you observe that the members who were -- who were mentioned

 2     under the heading for 1990 can no longer be found under the heading for

 3     1991?  Did you observe that when we looked at the document together?  Do

 4     you remember?

 5        A.   Well, it can be seen from the document.

 6        Q.   Did you observe the same thing I did, namely, that Mr. Stanisic

 7     cannot be found under the heading for 1991.  Do you agree?

 8        A.   Yes, we established that together.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Let me take you back to the previous

10     document used by the Prosecutor, namely, 65 ter 2350.

11             [No interpretation]

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We are on channel 6, but had

13     English in our heads.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  That's interpreter's apology.  I advertently

15     pressed the wrong button.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I must say something whether to --

17     to check whether we are getting Serbian now.

18             Now we're not getting anything.  Now we can hear.  It's okay now.

19        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, look at the remarks on the list of the members of

20     the Main Board from 1990.  You can see it in the lower part of the page.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down so we can read

22     them.

23        Q.   Do read these remarks.

24        A.   It should be enlarged.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness would like it to

Page 12085

 1     be enlarged.

 2        Q.   We looked at them yesterday.

 3        A.   Remark:  Members of the Main Board --

 4        Q.   You don't have to read it out aloud.

 5             Have you read it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you see the reason why Mr. Stanisic cannot be found under the

 8     heading for 1991?  Because according to this remark his name hasn't been

 9     circled and his term in office has not been extended.  Am I right?

10        A.   By what I see written here, what you say is very probable.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just commented on

13     two documents used by the Prosecution, and I believe -- I think that this

14     would be a convenient moment because our time is running out, and I am

15     now planning to deal with a different topic and show the Defence exhibits

16     to the witness.

17             So I'll hardly be able to start.  With your leave, I would then

18     stop off today and continue tomorrow.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Kezunovic, we're about to take the adjournment

20     for today.  Having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any

21     communication with the lawyers from either side; and should you -- in any

22     conversations you have with anybody outside of the courtroom, you cannot

23     discuss your testimony.

24             So we will resume in this courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 12086

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd

 3                           day of June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.