1 Monday, 28 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
6 Good afternoon, everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good afternoon to everyone.
11 May we have the appearances for today, please.
12 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
13 Matthew Olmsted, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
16 Stanisic Defence.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Igor Pantelic and
18 Dragan Krgovic for Zupljanin Defence. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I just would like to ask the
21 permission of the Trial Chamber to be excused because I have the
22 interview with the OTP witness scheduled at 2.30. So I will be leaving
23 for 45 minutes. Thank you very much.
24 Please, Ms. Korner. Thank you.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, (redacted)
15 Now, Your Honours, the ruling on that motion has not been made.
16 But the Prosecution, if Your Honours think it's right and -- and think
17 that the Defence have -- have a point, have no objection to re-calling
18 ST-179. And it may be that the simplest thing, subject to us being able
19 to get a hold of him and being able to making arrangements, is that that
20 is the time when he's re-called. It won't take up the two days that's
21 been set aside, but it's at least something.
22 Failing that, we could attempt to get hold of ST-142. He is
23 quite a big witness as far as the Stanisic team are concerned, but it
24 would -- we'd be giving them, effectively, if we can get hold of him,
25 four days' notice. He's, again, a -- I think he's a -- he is a 92 ter
2 But, Your Honours, if -- I think what we'd need today, if that's
3 possible, simply a decision on that part of the Defence's application,
4 namely, that we should re-call for further cross-examination ST-179.
5 Your Honours, the Defence set out their position in -- in their
6 application. As I say, we have no objection, if Your Honours think that
7 the application has merit.
8 So that's the first matter. I don't know whether Your Honours
9 want to consider that now or perhaps consider it over the -- after the --
10 during the break.
11 JUDGE HALL: Do Defence counsel on either side have a -- any
12 observations to make on this matter?
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, it would be -- it would be preferable
14 for the Defence of Stanisic that the first solution is adopted, which is
15 the re-calling of ST-179. We stated our reasons for -- for our request
16 to re-call that witness based on the disclosure of the -- of the witness
17 which have been delayed disclosure which is the witness which was
18 supposed to appear next week.
19 Therefore, we would -- we gave our reasons in -- in a written
20 form, and I wouldn't like to repeat them once again in the -- in the open
22 The -- as for the other solution, the calling of the other
23 witness, we feel that we ask and explained to Ms. Korner that we would
24 need at least seven to eight days to prepare for that witness, so we --
25 we asked them to notify us about his coming a bit in advance than usual.
1 So in that respect, we would also welcome a decision of the
2 Trial Chamber in the course of today's sitting.
3 Thank you very much.
4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... that's the first
6 Then, Your Honours, Your Honours may think this is good news,
7 particularly in the light of our still pending application to add the
8 witnesses to deal with adjudicated facts. We are not going to be calling
9 the witness with the number ST-206. That's a very lengthy witness. We
10 had him down, I think, for eight hours. And we've taken the decision not
11 to call him. The Defence have been notified of that last week.
12 And we did notify Your Honours; we're not sure that we -- that
13 you took in - I don't mean it that way - because we didn't have any
14 response to it. We're not calling, either, ST-119.
15 So, as I say, we are -- you'll remember, when Your Honours were
16 telling us to reduce our witness list early on, I said it was almost
17 certain that we would be reducing it by a natural attrition, and so we
18 are. So that's actually removed quite a number of hours from the witness
20 Your Honours, we then have the question of Ewa Tabeau. We filed
21 an application on the 10th of March, applying to add her report, "Victims
22 of War," to her earlier report. And we haven't -- the -- on the 24th of
23 March, the Defence opposed that and since then we haven't heard anything
24 at all, nor am I sure that we've had a ruling that she's to be treated as
25 an expert. We wish to call her at the end of July, just before the
1 break, we're having some difficulty in filling -- finding witnesses. We
2 appreciate that the Defence may not want to cross-examine until after the
3 break, particularly as we haven't had a ruling yet one way or another on
4 the second report, and so we were going to suggest that she is called;
5 she'd be the last witness on the Wednesday -- no, Thursday, working on
6 the basis that her report would go in, and we'd ask for a couple of hours
7 or so extra with her on the Thursday before the break and then be
8 cross-examined after the break. But we do need rulings.
9 And, Your Honours, I think, as far as I'm aware, unless I get an
10 e-mail to the contrary from anybody, that those were the matters that I
11 wanted to raise.
12 JUDGE HALL: So noted, Ms. Korner.
13 Before the scheduled witness is brought in, are there any other
14 preliminary matters that need engage the Chamber's attention?
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE HALL: Can you hear me, sir?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE HALL: Please make the solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: LAZAR DRASKO
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. You may be seated.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon to you, sir, and thank you for coming
2 to assist the Tribunal in its work.
3 The first thing that I would do is to remind you that the solemn
4 declaration that you have just made would expose you to the pain of the
5 penalty of perjury should you give false or mislead testimony to this
7 The first formal questions that the Chamber has of you is to ask
8 to you state your name, your date of birth, and your ethnicity.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Lazar. My last name is
10 Drasko. I was born on 15th of January, 1948, in Tasovcici, municipality
11 of Capljina, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 JUDGE HALL: And what is your ethnicity?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb by ethnicity.
14 JUDGE HALL: And would you tell us what your profession is,
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Currently, I'm -- I work as a
17 prosecutor at the cantonal prosecutor's office in Gorazde,
19 JUDGE HALL: You said "currently." Were you doing something
20 differently before that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. I graduated from law
22 school in 1970, in Sarajevo. After that, I was an intern at the district
23 court in Mostar until 1973 at -- when I passed my bar exam. In that
24 year, I was elected judge for the municipal court in Capljina. I was a
25 judge at that court, and I spent a year with the JNA at Bileca, Pancevo,
1 and Skopje. And later, I continued. And I believe it was in 1976 that I
2 was elected prosecutor at the municipal prosecutor's office in Capljina,
3 which covers the municipalities of Stolac, Ljubinje, and Neum. In that
4 position I remained until about 1983. Then I became deputy director of
5 the health centre in Capljina where I stayed for four years. That was
6 after the infamous Neum scandal when I had to leave. And in 1988, after
7 that scandal, the Assembly of the Republic started electing people for
8 those positions. And I opened a private attorney's office in Capljina,
9 where I worked until the beginning of the war, I believe until the
10 1st of May, when I was drafted. I was drafted to the VRS in Tasovcici,
11 my -- the place where I was born.
12 JUDGE HALL: Have you testified previously before this Tribunal
13 or before any -- courts in any of the countries in the former Yugoslavia?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE HALL: The procedure of this Tribunal is such as would not
16 be unfamiliar to you in that the -- you have been called by one side - in
17 this case, the Prosecution - and the counsel for each of the accused
18 would have a right to cross-examine you. In terms of the time, the
19 Prosecution has been granted a total of two-hours to conduct their
20 examination-in-chief. And counsel for the accused Stanisic, two hours;
21 and counsel for the accused Zupljanin, an additional hour.
22 The -- the Bench, after any re-examination the Prosecution may
23 have, would themselves have any questions -- may themselves have
24 questions of you; and, after that, your testimony would be -- would be at
25 an end.
1 Ordinarily, the sittings of the Tribunal would be in this case an
2 afternoon sitting; we would sit until 7.00 in the evening. And there are
3 two 20 minute breaks in between that. The sittings do not exceed an hour
4 and a half for technical reasons having to do with the taping system
5 where tapes have to be changed. But if, before the ordinary time of a
6 break, you are in distress or for any reason you need a break, you could
7 indicate that to the Chamber, and we would, of course, accommodate you.
8 With that, I would invite counsel for the Prosecution to begin
9 the examination-in-chief.
10 Yes, Mr. Olmsted.
11 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examination by Mr. Olmsted:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Drasko.
14 A. Good afternoon, Prosecutor.
15 Q. Thank you. You've already provided a part of your professional
16 background. I wanted to start where you left off.
17 You said in May you were mobilised into the army in Tasovcici.
18 In early June, 1992, were you relocated to Bileca?
19 A. Yes. There was an offensive against Tasovcici and the entire
20 Neretva valley, and we Serbs, as well as those who were with us, who
21 failed to be Yugoslavs, Croats and Muslims alike, withdrew toward
22 Nevesinje. That's what my sister did. And I went to Bileca with my
23 children. The offensive went on for a few days. There wasn't
24 fighting -- there was no fighting, there were no casualties. Only later
25 I knew that -- I found out that it was pursuant to the
1 Boban-Karadzic Agreement. So the Croatian troops did not cut us off at
2 Stolac, but, rather, we were able to get out safely.
3 Q. What was your position that you held when you were in Bileca?
4 A. First, my position was that of an invalid. I had broken a leg
5 and had to an infirmary where I was treated, and I spent 15 days there in
6 a stationary unit. So when the fracture had healed, I was called up by
7 Slobodan Cup [phoen] from Mostar; he is a lawyer by trade, and in the
8 army he was a reserve officer. And he invited me to join them in the
9 command of the corps because I had graduated from the reserve officers
10 school in Bileca. I was a reserve officer.
11 Apart from that, I attended the police school at Pancevo, and
12 later on I was at Skoplje, too. So I had completed a course for military
13 police commander. After leaving the army, I was Deputy Commander of the
14 staff -- army staff for Herzegovina. Divjak worked there, too. And our
15 last commander was a Macedonian. I visited him and I saw that Yugoslavia
16 was breaking up, and I saw that genocide was under way and I asked him to
17 do something so as to prevent the war.
18 Q. Let me stop you there. Mr. Drasko, I know you really want to
19 provide a lot of information, but please try to focus on the questions
20 that I'm asking.
21 When you went to Bileca, I understand you were in hospital for --
22 A. [No interpretation]
23 Q. -- a bit. Then you stated that you'd joined the corps there.
24 Would that be the Herzegovina Corps?
25 A. Yes, the Herzegovina Corps. The security service which was
1 commanded by Captain Segrt. I served under him and worked on
2 administrative tasks and legal affairs. There were also cases when
3 perpetrators of some criminal offences had to be examined, especially
4 perpetrators of murder. The problem was that the offences were committed
5 by military personnel, but military courts were not functioning. And we
6 would transfer such cases to the district prosecutor's office in
8 Q. And how long did you remain in this position with the
9 Herzegovina Corps?
10 A. About a month and a half. There were two small children with me,
11 and my wife remained behind as a prisoner at the Dretelj camp, and my
12 children slept with me, so they understood it was better for me to go
13 home and take care of the children. And also Colonel Nikola Milosevic
14 didn't like my saying that there was such a thing as the Dretelj camp and
15 that neither the army nor the international community were doing anything
16 for my friends and other people to be released from that camp. He -- his
17 position was that I was a panic-maker. So he said, Go home.
18 My wife was exchanged and was able to leave the camp on the
19 18th of August. I had already been at home with my children for some
20 15 days. When I say "at home," I say in an apartment that was given to
21 some friends of mine.
22 Q. Now, next, after you left Bileca, you held two positions
23 simultaneously in Visegrad. What were those positions?
24 A. I arrived in Bileca on the 28th of August. We found some
25 temporary accommodation. And, after that, I reported to the corps
1 command. I was first drafted in by the army, where I was in charge of
2 the legal affairs. But I was also told that there were crimes and that
3 they don't have a prosecutor, and I was immediately offered to be elected
4 to the civilian prosecutor at the district court and that I should take
5 up that duty because there were murders going on and its an urgent
6 matter. And then I went to the court, the Judge Milanka Tanaskovic gave
7 me the files, she gave me the keys. I saw the files, and then I drafted
8 the requests for investigation. But then, after completing that, every
9 day I would return to the corps command where we also performed guard
10 duty during night. Occasionally, we were there for communication
11 purposes. We drafted criminal reports and did other legal jobs.
12 Q. The record states that you were a prosecutor for the district
13 court. Just to clarify, were you a basic public prosecutor in Visegrad?
14 A. Basic.
15 Q. And when did you first begin performing the function of basic
16 prosecutor? When did you start actually taking in case files?
17 A. The republic Assembly of Republika Srpska appointed me, I think,
18 on the 31st of October to this position, and since that day, I was able
19 to conduct these tasks. But there were other cases that I had done prior
20 to that date. I spent most of my time in TG Rudo until the
21 31st of January next year.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and I understand that
23 you're --
24 A. 2003.
25 Q. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
1 I understand that you were formally appointed to the basic
2 prosecutor's position on the 31st of October, 1992. But when did you
3 actually start performing the role? I understand that you started
4 performing it before that.
5 A. Yes, I have mentioned that prior to my official appointment, and
6 that was several days after my arrival in Visegrad, I was told that there
7 were two or three murderers there who were in remand prison at the
8 command and that requests should be drafted by me for investigation. I
9 did draft them, and I then forwarded them to the court so that the
10 investigation may start, so the cases would start being processed. They
11 believed it was right thing to do because soon I were to be elected
12 prosecutor where there was nobody holding that position at the time.
13 Q. Now, you were basic public prosecutor in Visegrad until 2001; is
14 that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And after that you were district court judge in Trebinje until
17 2003; is that right?
18 A. In the district court of Trebinje, yes.
19 Q. And then from there, in 2003, you were -- started working for the
20 cantonal prosecutor's office in Gorazde. And that's where you've worked
21 ever since; right?
22 A. In Gorazde, yes.
23 Q. Now, can you --
24 A. Yes, it is correct. However, I'm not the chief prosecutor since
25 2008. I am just a prosecutor, and Bilajica Miksa [phoen] is now the
1 chief prosecutor.
2 Q. Right. Now, when you -- when you arrived in Bileca, who was
3 commander of the Herzegovina Corps?
4 A. I think it was Radomir, Radomir Grubac.
5 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take -- let's take a look at 65 ter 3080.
6 And we can see that this is a report from the Herzegovina Corps
7 command dated 4 June 1992.
8 And if we could turn to the last page.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, could you give us the tab number,
11 MR. OLMSTED: This is tab 6.
12 Q. Mr. Drasko, if you could take a look at the signature. Is that
13 the signature of Colonel Grubac?
14 A. I think it is.
15 MR. OLMSTED: If we could look at page 2 of the B/C/S and page 3
16 of the English. And we look at item number 5.
17 Q. It states that Lieutenant-Colonel General Mladic and
18 Radovan Karadzic attended the SAO Herzegovina Assembly held in Bileca.
19 Mr. Drasko, do you recall that President Karadzic and
20 General Mladic were in Bileca in early July 1992?
21 A. At the time, I was in Tasovcici, in trenches. I wasn't informed
22 about this. I wasn't working at the command at the time, only in my
23 unit. In the Tasovcici area, where only me and my cousin were Serbs, all
24 the rest of them were Muslims, we didn't have too much contact with the
25 Herzegovina Corps, and we didn't get all that many information. But I
1 did hear -- because what people were saying was when Radovan coming to
2 Bileca, then territories fall. They were immediately afraid that the
3 area of Herzegovina would fall into the their hands, after having heard
4 that he has arrived. They were saying, God, please don't have them come
5 over. Not even the fighters liked him coming over. They believed he was
6 selling things out. The people found out about the agreement between him
7 and Boban that was reached in Grac. Momo Mandic also spoke about that.
8 And the rumour went that some parts of Herzegovina would be handed over
9 in exchange for Posavina. People in that part of Herzegovina weren't
10 really pleased with this.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Drasko. Let me remind you, please keep your
12 answers short and try to focus on my question. There is a delay with the
13 translations, and so just because there is a delay --
14 A. I apologise.
15 Q. Just because there is a delay doesn't mean that I'm waiting for
16 you to finish your answer necessarily and to continue with it. Please
17 keep your answers short.
18 Well, I think --
19 MR. OLMSTED: May I tender this into evidence, Your Honours, this
21 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
22 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take --
23 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. As Exhibit P1477, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: And, for the record, it's not 3580 but 3080,
25 65 ter number.
1 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, you're right, Your Honour. I apologise.
2 Let's take a look at 65 ter 1460. We can see this is a report
3 from the Herzegovina Corps command dated 11 June 1992. If we can turn to
4 the last page of the document.
5 Q. And can you confirm for us again whether this is the signature of
6 Colonel Grubac?
7 A. I believe so.
8 MR. OLMSTED: If we could now turn to page 2 of the B/C/S; page 5
9 of the English.
10 We see here that it reports that a prisoner accommodation centre
11 was holding 244 people, including 16 women and several minors.
12 Where was this accommodation centre?
13 A. The centre was located in an old building built by the Austrians,
14 next to the Mose Pijade Museum where the command was and where the office
15 were of Mr. Grubac. I was -- I had my offices at the ground floor, and
16 that's where Commander Segrt was also located, and he was on the first
17 floor. And in direction of Bileca, immediately next to us was this big
18 building where the prisoners were located. These people were in terrible
19 conditions. One could smell the sweat, the heavy stench of sweat. It
20 was summertime, it was hot, they couldn't wash really often, and one
21 could smell them passing by the building.
22 Q. And what was the ethnicity of these persons at this centre?
23 A. I think that in the collection centre it was either Muslims or
24 Croats. There were a few Serbs who were also there but because they were
25 considered to be deserters or traitors. But there were very few of them.
1 Mile Sakovski, for instance, was there.
2 Q. It states further --
3 MR. OLMSTED: And if we turn to page 3 of the B/C/S.
4 Q. It states --
5 MR. OLMSTED: And stay where we are for the English.
6 Q. It states:
7 On 10 June, the organs of the Bileca SO and SUP carried out the
8 illegal weapons seizure operation. Several people were arrested on that
9 occasion, of whom 41 were accommodated in the barracks.
10 Is that referring to the barracks next to the Mose Pijade Museum
11 or -- what we were just talking about?
12 A. I heard that police kept their detainees somewhere else, that
13 they were not together with the other group. They were guarded by a
14 different group of people. And I know that police released these people,
15 let's them go to Montenegro, whether -- whereas the other group of
16 prisoners were then exchanged in Stolac.
17 I heard, while I was in Bileca, that there was an action or
18 operation involving Muslims, armed Muslims, who surrounded the Serbian
19 forces. The Serbian forces gave them their weapons, and then they took
20 them to the town and put them into a prison. And then, later on, they
21 were transported by buses to Montenegro.
22 Q. Yes. I want to focus on this particular document because it
23 mentions that these 41 persons were accommodated in the barracks and
24 mentions the barracks. And I just want to clarify: Would that be the
25 Mose Pijade barracks?
1 A. There was one barracks, Mose Pijade, but the police also had
2 somewhere a prison of their own, I think.
3 Q. Now, you mentioned, I think, an incident that you observed.
4 In June 1992, did you see a group of non-Serbs in the custody of
5 the police in Bileca?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you describe what -- can you describe what you saw?
8 A. I've heard of that. I don't know exactly where, but I do know
9 that the people who were forced to take off their clothes were taken to a
10 barracks, most probably in Bileca, and that these people were later
11 transported by buses to Montenegro. And they were held there for about a
12 month or a month and a half. One of the girls who worked in the same
13 barracks with me, she had a boyfriend, and he -- she went with -- with
14 him to Montenegro, and I remember her bringing me chocolate later on and
15 telling me that he will be released. And eventually these people arrived
16 in Montenegro and then found their accommodation there.
17 Q. I want to clarify something for the record. Did you actually
18 observe these non-Serbs who were in the custody of the police? Did you
19 see it for yourself?
20 A. I saw for myself when they were taken through town in a convoy.
21 They passed through the old part of town, next to the mosque, old mosque
22 that was far from the building of the -- where the command was located.
23 I was with my children when I saw them. I don't know where, on what
24 premises were they accommodated. I didn't manage to find that out.
25 Actually, I wasn't all that much interested in that because these people
1 were not prisoners of the Herzegovina Corps but the prisoners of the
3 Q. You said something about their clothing. What were they wearing
4 when you saw them being escorted through the town?
5 A. They had only their underwear. It was summertime, and they had
6 only their underwear on.
7 MR. OLMSTED: May this be admitted into evidence.
8 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1478, Your Honours.
10 MR. OLMSTED:
11 Q. In early July, did you see any bus convoys for non-Serbs in
13 A. Commander Segrt told me to go towards the lake in direction of
14 Niksica, outside of the garrison, and that I should go and see the buses
15 there. He didn't explain what was I supposed to look at. But he was
16 that kind of a person. He would never say anything like that.
17 Specifically, he wanted, me to see for myself. He would never
18 specifically tell me, Do such and such a thing, or make a categorical
20 I think Captain Duka told me later that they had a fight. I saw
21 some buses, but I didn't know where they were going, who these people.
22 He didn't tell me anything. But I asked some people, and they told me
23 they were Muslims being taken away. And then on my return, I told him
24 I've seen some buses, people being taken away. And I asked him, So what
25 am I supposed to do? And he said, Well, your job was to go and see what
1 was going on, to determine the situation that. That was his answer. And
2 then I realised that civilians were also being transported away from
4 Q. And from what you could tell, who organised this convoy of buses?
5 A. I think it was organised by the authorities of Bileca and the
6 police of the city.
7 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take a look at 65 ter 45.
8 Q. What we have in front of us is a letter from SJB Gacko to the
9 Herzegovina Corps dated 29 July 1992. You can see that the letter refers
10 to the Bileca prison. Which detention facility is being referred to
12 A. Detention centre was located in Bileca. Milan Soldo, who
13 previously had worked in the Mostar prisoner, was in charge of that
14 prison. He was the main person who was in charge there. They have --
15 didn't have enough food. And then Gruban [phoen] insisted that these
16 people should be exchanged or released because we didn't have -- they
17 didn't have food for them. And then Soldo made a list of the oldest
18 people there; they were released. I was among those who were escorting
19 them. They were taken to Stolac. There was no exchange. I didn't
20 really appreciate that because my wife was at the time in Dretelj prison.
21 She could have been exchanged, but Grubac decided not do that. But, of
22 course, I was soldier, and I didn't complain. I was really displeased.
23 I thought that they should allow people from Capljina also to get out,
24 the civilians. But, in any case, people did get out. And then later on
25 there was an exchange on the 28th of August when the others were
2 Q. I just want to clarify. When it's referring in this letter to
3 the Herzegovina Corps, to this Bileca prison, it's referring to someplace
4 different than the Mose Pijade barracks. Is that what you're saying?
5 A. It is all one facility in a fortress, immediately in front of the
6 command building. There is only a road between the two buildings. And
7 the other side were the premises where we would bring the prisons in for
8 examination, and on the first floor it was a cafe. And then further on
9 there were accommodation with beds for us and the military police.
10 That's where I slept with my three children as well.
11 Q. Now, it says here that it's talking about Muslims who were
12 detained at this facility. Can you tell us, Were these Muslim
13 prisoners -- were they civilians or were they participating in the armed
15 A. From what I knew, all these people were my neighbours, so to
16 speak. I was a judge in Capljina and Stolac, and all these people were
17 my neighbours who had been picked up by paramilitary formations before
18 the fall of Capljina. For instance, Meho, a neighbour of mine who used
19 to drink coffee with me every day, he was there at the command. Many
20 prominent people from Mostar was also brought there, people I had known
21 from before. I tried to have a word with them, but I also wanted to
22 register them. They were looking for someone to help them be released,
23 but then I -- we told them that the -- wait, there's going to be an
24 exchange, be patient. And Soldo was in touch with the people. These
25 people were -- also included farmers from Dubrave area. And when -- when
1 they were being released, one of them told me, Don't worry, Lazar, we'll
2 make sure that your wife gets released as well. Also, in Dubrave, there
3 were people who used to fight together with us, on our side, with the
4 Serbs, and yet they were also brought there.
5 Q. Just to clarify what you're telling us: These Muslims detained
6 at this location, they were not participating in the armed conflicts; is
7 that correct?
8 A. They were not. They even lived among the Serbs in Stolac,
9 Domanovici, Capljina, Mostar, Pijesti [phoen], and so on and so forth.
10 And with the withdrawal of Serbs, some of them were taken along. Some of
11 them were driven from there. And also because Serbs wanted to have some
12 people to use as hostages who they can later on exchange. Most probably
13 that was another reason.
14 I apologise, there were many prisoners, Serbs, Yugoslavs, who
15 were held in Capljina, Grabovina, Dretelj, and private prisons. In
16 Dretelj, there were, at the time, 2- or 300 prisons.
17 Q. So why were these non-Serbs detained at the prison? Why were
18 they being held there?
19 A. To be honest, I think only because they were Serbs -- or, rather,
20 because they were not Serbs. I knew these people; none of them were
21 responsible for any sabotage activities or for having killed anyone. On
22 several occasions, I sat together with Ekrem Codarevic in a hotel.
23 UNPROFOR was also present, and we analysed the situation. And he told
24 me, Be careful, Lazar, Radovan sold you out; don't stay here too long.
25 Move to Bileca, outside of the borders of Banovina of Croatia, and that
1 way you will survive. And later on I found about the agreement, so I
2 realised that it actually happened, that there was agreement.
3 Q. This letter is to the attention of Colonel Milosevic. What role
4 did Colonel Milosevic play in prisoner exchanges?
5 A. Milosevic simply believed the Croat side when -- in their claims
6 that the camp of Dretelj does not exist, that the exchange would be of
7 the all-for-all type. He didn't like me saying that the Dretelj camp
8 exists, that people are being tortured, women and so on. He believed I
9 was making lies and propaganda. And at the time of the exchange, a
10 colleague told me --
11 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt. You misunderstood my question, though.
12 I want to know what role Colonel Milosevic played in prisoner
13 exchanges, because this letter from SJB Gacko is addressed to him. Was
14 he at all responsible for prisoner exchanges?
15 A. He was exclusively in charge of the exchanges of prisoners. He
16 was a very serious man, and I believed he would accomplish a lot.
17 MR. OLMSTED: May this be admitted into evidence.
18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1479, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Olmsted, before we let this document go,
21 could we just inquire with the witness.
22 Under whose command this prison in Bileca was? Because I thought
23 I heard the witness say that it was run by the police; yet the request
24 for exchange seems to have been made to the Colonel from the army.
25 So who was responsible for running this camp; do you know?
1 Or can we ask the witness about this.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prisoners who -- that were located
3 in the corps command were prisoners of the army. And military units were
4 in charge of them, primarily Milosevic and Grubac from the security
5 service. They were making the plans for the release of these people;
6 whereas the prisoners who were in town, they were under the police
7 command, and it was the police who was making decisions about them. They
8 released those towards Montenegro; and the corps released their prisoners
9 to Dubrave, Capljina, Ljuboski, and so forth.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Are you able to say how many were
11 detained in the civilian centre where the police was running it and how
12 many detainees were held by the army?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say precisely for the
14 police. They're probably the numbers put forward by the Prosecutor. And
15 as for the army, I believe that there were as many as 600 people kept by
16 the military in these buildings, because they were full. Soldo told me
17 that Grubac had ordered a separation of all elderly people and that they
18 should all be released without an exchange at Stolac. And that was done.
19 In cooperation with the Croatian authorities, they were let go to Stolac.
20 And the younger ones were kept until the last exchange on the 18th, 18th
21 of August; that was the day of the last exchange, and I was present
23 It was interesting because they tricked Colonel Milosevic on that
24 occasion. He was to -- he trusted them too much. It should have been an
25 exchange all for all. There were two trucks full of young recruits from
1 the JNA who should have been exchanged. When the civilians, especially
2 HOS members, Kospic [phoen], Puntic [phoen], and others who I knew well,
3 they were taken prisoner and they were HOS members from Dretelj. When
4 they crossed the border-line, the exchange was stopped, and the young
5 recruits were taken back and they killed them all. Only recently have
6 their bodies -- were their bodies discovered in the surroundings of
7 Vinodol. At least 80 soldiers were killed there. And if it had been a
8 real exchange, if they had been careful enough, if Colonel Milosevic
9 hadn't trusted the Croatian authorities as much, if he had been more
10 distrustful, these people would now be alive.
11 My wife was also released on that occasion; I was present. I
12 pointed her out to Milosevic and said, She was also from Dretelj camp.
13 There were about 80 women and over 120 men there. Do you trust me now?
14 But he didn't say a word. And that was why he drove me out of the
15 garrison. After that, he died soon.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.
17 MR. OLMSTED:
18 Q. And just to clarify further what Judge Harhoff asked you: Where
19 the police held non-Serbs, was this in the same compound as the
20 Mose Pijade barracks, or was it off that site?
21 A. It was in the barracks, in old buildings built by the Austrians,
22 about 50 metres from the command of the security; whereas Grubac had his
23 office on the upper floor. I served my compulsory army service there
24 too, 1975. I know every metre of the premises.
25 Q. I want to move on to Visegrad now.
1 Can you tell us, I think you mentioned that you arrived in
2 Visegrad at the end of August; is that correct?
3 A. On 28th of August with my wife when she was released from the
4 camp and three small children aged 4 through 11. That's how we arrived
5 at Visegrad.
6 Q. Before you arrived in Visegrad, do you recall hearing
7 announcements over the radio coming from the Visegrad municipal
9 A. My in-laws said to me that they had heard that. That they were
10 inviting people to come there, that there were vacant houses, that houses
11 would be distributed. But I first decided to go to Trebinje to see
12 Dobroslav Cuk, the chief of the Red Cross, who is now president of
13 Trebinje municipality. My wife brought a list of the remaining
14 prisoners. She was a doctor, a microbiologist. But that was mostly due
15 to the row I had with Ms. Hartman from the Red Cross delegation, and I
16 blamed her for these people remaining in the camp. And in the end she
17 had made a list of the remaining people in the camp, and we inquired
18 whether there was a position of judge for me at Trebinje because I was
19 much more experienced than the judges there and if my wife could get a
20 job as a doctor there. But they refused. They were saying, No, there
21 are no jobs for you there. And only then did we decide to go to
22 Visegrad. I didn't come to Bileca on a white horse as a hero or a cadre
23 of theirs, but I came as a refugee, with a refugee ID.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Drasko. But, please, please, focus on the
25 questions because we do have limited time with you, and we want to try to
1 cover all the topics. So just listen to the questions and just keep your
2 answers focused on the questions.
3 A. I apologise to the Trial Chamber. But these are things that
4 really touched me deep down inside, the entire war and everything.
5 Q. And I think the Trial Chamber certainly appreciates that, and I
6 apologise for trying to cut you off. It's just because we have limited
8 You mentioned that these announcements that your family heard
9 over the radio were calling for people to come to Visegrad. What
10 ethnicity were they trying to attract to Visegrad? What ethnic group?
11 A. Exclusively Serbs. They were saying that Visegrad had been
12 ethnically cleansed of Bosniaks or Muslims they were called at the time
13 and that we could can get their houses. So that many people from the
14 Neretva Valley went there. But not only they; also people from Sarajevo,
15 or Zenica, or Travnik. Over 20.000 people came to Visegrad from all
16 over. And, of course, accommodation had to be found for all of them, and
17 they had to be fed. It required organisation, and they were also drafted
18 into the army. Many left for Serbia later. They expected the fall of
19 Gorazde. There were announcements to that effect. The Serbs from
20 Gorazde were also expected to come to Visegrad.
21 Q. By the time you arrived Visegrad at the end of August, 1992, how
22 many non-Serbs remained in Visegrad?
23 A. Apart from mixed marriages who weren't bothered by anybody,
24 expect for some minor incidents, the remaining population was locked up
25 in the Uzamnica barracks which was held by the army. There was a unit
1 established to guard them and feed them. They also had work obligation,
2 but there was no other population in the town.
3 Q. What happened -- what happened to the houses that the non-Serbs
4 had left behind?
5 A. Most of the houses were not set on fire because they were
6 expected to be given to refugees as accommodation. Then state-owned
7 companies had distributed apartments. They belonged to the companies.
8 So the employees of Varda should go to the apartments owned by Varda,
9 et cetera. Refugees were only given houses. Local population who had
10 relatives there and connections got apartments down-town on the other
11 side of the Drina, that is, the side towards Serbia. Whereas we were
12 sent to the Crnca neighbourhood, as far as possible away from the -- from
13 down-town. So that we refugees would be some sort of a buffer zone
14 between the town itself and the Muslims who sometimes made raids into the
15 town and came as close as a couple of hundred metres.
16 Q. How were the non-Serb houses assigned to Serbs coming to
17 Visegrad? Was there a commission set up, or how was this process
19 A. A commission was established, and they went from house to house.
20 And depending on the head count, they assigned housing. They were
21 promising that the Muslims would never return so the house would -- could
22 be kept permanently by the people who moved in, but that was a common
23 story at the time in Bosnia and Herzegovina, although it was clear that a
24 house can only be assigned for temporary use.
25 So I got a house at Crnca, but I wasn't allowed to sleep there.
1 I only slept with my father-in-law. On the next day, when I returned
2 home, I found the house robbed, without any furniture, even the firewood
3 was gone. And I -- I inquired who had done it. And I -- they told me, A
4 man Lakic did. And I was angry, and I went about the neighbourhood to
5 see whether I could find a stove somewhere that I could use. And then I
6 saw a couple of soldiers; I thought they were Serbs; and I asked, Do you
7 know a guy Lakic? He robbed me. And he said, Yeah, Lakic would do that.
8 But where are you from? We're from Zenica. But how do you know Lakic?
9 Never mind, sir. You come to our house, we'll give you furniture. And
10 we transported a stove and some things to my house.
11 And only then did I understand that they were actually Bosniaks
12 who lived there. They were killing some people, but they were obviously
13 in no mood to kill me and my brother-in-law, because they obviously
14 recognised us as refugees, like them, and we were up the creek like they
15 were. And --
16 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't understand the witness's last
17 sentence. Sorry.
18 MR. OLMSTED:
19 Q. Can you just repeat your last sentence. And then we have to
20 break for the interpreters.
21 A. He said that he had given me his stove. That was his stove,
23 MR. OLMSTED: And I apologise, I'm on the wrong schedule. I
24 guess we're not ready for break.
25 Q. Okay. You've already mentioned that essentially by the time you
1 arrived in Visegrad, the non-Serbs had left Visegrad. But before
2 arriving Visegrad, did you hear from anyone what had happened to the
3 non-Serbs in that municipality?
4 A. While I was still in Bileca, I spoke to Kospic, an officer of the
5 JNA; he was a Croat. There was also Zajec [phoen], a Slovenian. And I
6 told them that I couldn't get a job in Bileca, although they needed
7 military courts; but because of the relations between Grubac and -- or,
8 rather, the attitude that Grubac and Milicic [phoen] had toward my family
9 in Bilica, because he said to me, Why have you come to Bilica? There is
10 no -- no place here. That is what Papic said to me; he studied with me
11 in Sarajevo. There's no work here. And then I decided to go. Pistols
12 were even drawn for the apartment of Seyad Djogevic [phoen]. And I said,
13 We'd better get out of the way and go elsewhere. And relatives were
14 willing to put us up; it was a relative of my wife's - he was a war
15 orphan from the Second World War, and he had come to Visegrad - who had
16 married another man by the name of Zurovac, and he was looking for an
17 apartment for me. And when he saw that on the other bank it wasn't
18 possible, I looked for an apartment in town -- or, rather, down-town in
19 the vicinity of the prosecutor's office, an apartment of any kind. And I
20 saw there was a house that was partly burnt in Pionirska Street, but the
21 facade was good. Only one room had burned down.
22 But they were saying, No, this is not good enough for you. Let's
23 go to another place. And we found an older house which was damaged, but
24 it could be -- it could be renovated. And I said, Why is this better?
25 This one is better because nobody was killed here. You don't want to
1 live in a house where people were killed and live among their ghosts and
2 have people on your conscience. And that's why --
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sir, would be so good as to speak slowly because
4 everything you said has to be interpreted by the interpreters, but they
5 cannot follow you when you speak so fast.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
7 MR. OLMSTED:
8 Q. And, Mr. Drasko, just keep an eye on me because I will indicate
9 to you if you're going too fast or if you need to break for the
11 I want to break down what you just told us.
12 You had a conversation about a house that was burnt down on
13 Pionirska Street; is that correct?
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 Q. Could you repeat your answer? I don't think it was heard.
16 A. Yes. That house was right across the street in Pionirska. For a
17 long time nobody lived there. Now I see it's been repaired. And I found
18 a big dog there, a tornjak by the name of Lindo, and I took a puppy and
19 the puppy's now with me.
20 Q. Just focus on my questions.
21 Who did you have this conversation about this house on
22 Pionirska Street with, and when did you have that conversation?
23 A. When I was looking for apartments on the left bank, there were
24 problems everywhere with breaking and robbing. Then I went to the right
25 bank, but then attacks on that bank started, attacks on Terpentin and on
1 the graveyard, attacks by the Muslim forces. And for the sake of safety,
2 I decided to go to the other bank. And I asked Momo to find something
3 for me, and he found this. And I said, I passed by the command, there's
4 a good house; there's only -- slightly damaged by fire. And he said, No,
5 no, no; don't go there. And never explained to me but I understood that
6 somebody had come to harm there. And he said, Take this house; it
7 belonged to Mustafa Hasim. Nobody was killed here. His wife and he went
8 to Denmark. They are honest people, and you can live there.
9 Q. And this occurred -- was this early September 1992?
10 A. Yes, that's when I was looking for an apartment.
11 Q. And this individual you had this conversation with, was this a
12 relative of yours?
13 A. Yes, he was a relative. A relative of my wife's.
14 Q. And did he mention to you that non-Serbs had been killed in a
15 fire in that house?
16 A. No, he didn't. This doesn't seem to be the house where there was
17 a fire, but it had burnt. And somebody may have burned in the house. He
18 never mentioned any details. But he wanted to save my soul. And he told
19 me where I could live normally.
20 Q. Now --
21 A. Unburdened by the souls of the deceased. I do have religious
22 beliefs, and I became more religious in the war. And because of
23 everything that happened to me, I think that gold is bad, that you
24 mustn't take what belongs to another, and if you go to somebody's house
25 you must be grateful and try to do as little damage as possible.
1 Q. Now, before --
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, just to confirm: Are you all right,
3 and are you -- can you go on for another couple of minutes before we have
4 the break, or do you need to take the break now?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. All right. I can go
6 on. No problems.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please proceed.
8 MR. OLMSTED:
9 Q. Before you left for Visegrad, while you were still in Bileca, did
10 you have any conversations with military officials about crimes that were
11 occurring in Visegrad against the non-Serb population?
12 A. Well, here's what they said to me, especially Josip: Lazar, I
13 don't recommend that you go there; crimes were committed there. The
14 Bosniaks were cleansed away. And I said, Where should I go? I'm from
15 the Neretva valley and here there are thousands of problems. Where
16 should I go? Tell me. What should I do? And they're calling me to come
17 there, and they say they may employ me as a judge and that I wouldn't be
18 a soldier anymore so I would get rid of that. My wife seems to be --
19 able to find a job at the medical centre. My kids can go to school. And
20 that sounds like a normal life. And I didn't know about Visegrad, where
21 it was, and nor did I know about its history expect from the works of
22 Ivo Andric. I knew only what I had read in the book, and I had an
23 idealised image of Visegrad because that was mandatory reading in
24 secondary school, Ivo Andric. And only once before had I passed through
1 Q. You mentioned that you were warned about going to Visegrad. Did
2 you hear about the kinds of crimes that were committed against the
3 non-Serb population in the months before you had arrived there, what kind
4 of crimes were committed?
5 A. No, I didn't. I only heard the warnings from the two JNA
6 officers, but they didn't know any details either.
7 Q. Were any armed Serb volunteer groups operating in Visegrad
8 between September through December 1992?
9 A. They had various names. The corps was strong -- or, rather, not
10 the corps but the Visegrad Brigade. And it wanted to grow stronger. And
11 they wanted to diminish the reputation of those groups. They wanted
12 cooperation with the Municipal Assembly and the authorities and to
13 prevent lawlessness, especially on the part of those groups. But they
14 were -- there were groups coming in all the time. Some were called
15 locusts. Somebody said that they are some gypsies from Belgrade. Sorry,
16 I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but that's what they were
17 called. I know that they roamed the area, but they left very fast, in
18 ten or 15 days.
19 Another group was called Garavi, but they were locals. They were
20 called that because they were smear their faces black before going into
21 action. I know that the -- that Seselj's Men had been released from
22 prison. They were called Seselj's Men; they were locked up for various
23 criminal offences, and they were sent to Bosnia to make havoc there.
24 They didn't even fight; they only stole and raped. I even had a criminal
25 report because they had raped a girl.
1 I didn't know which other units there were. There were also the
2 Russians. A guy had brought a unit that had been in Afghanistan. They
3 only wanted to fight Muslims. They said they wouldn't fight Croats.
4 They prayed to God, some of them drank a bit. There was a Cossack who
5 was killed. There was a doctor who got killed. Valery Pikov [phoen] was
6 an engineer, and he had reserves about Russian soldiers and volunteers.
7 He had an apartment in the state of Russia. He was a civilised man. But
8 very few of them stayed behind -- stayed. They mostly went away fast.
9 Q. Were the White Eagles also present in Visegrad when you were
11 A. There was rumour about the White Eagles, but I haven't seen
12 anyone -- or, rather, I saw some people, but I don't know whether any one
13 of them was a White Eagle. Because the command was growing stronger, the
14 prosecutor's office was getting off the ground, proceedings were taken
15 against murders, so they didn't have much manoeuvring space, and they
16 were leaving, as the official authorities were getting stronger. So I
17 never even felt the presence of the White Eagles. I never met them. And
18 I had exclusive ties with the command, and I know that they had the best
19 of intentions to introduce law and order into the city.
20 Q. Now --
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, it's 3.40, so I think this is the time
22 for the break.
23 MR. OLMSTED: If -- can I just ask one question?
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
25 MR. OLMSTED: And then we're done with this topic.
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
2 MR. OLMSTED:
3 Q. You mentioned that some of these members of these Serb volunteer
4 groups were former convicts; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, they were released from prison. And they had also come to
6 the Neretva valley, the same people who were released from prison, to
7 help us once the JNA had withdrawn. And I know back there, on the
8 Neretva, one of these Chetnik commanders pointed his pistol at my head
9 and he said, I understand that you're a reserve officer, Lazar. Take my
10 ten soldiers, but if anyone gets killed, I will kill you.
11 He was a well-known person, but I don't know want to go into that
12 now. He was a personality from political life. And I put away his
13 pistol and said, Don't point your pistol at me. Whoever isn't willing to
14 get killed here can leave right away. Whereas we, who have our homes
15 here, are willing to die here. And we were going to die, but we were
16 tricked. But that group left very soon.
17 Q. Okay --
18 A. And we weren't happy with their presence.
19 Q. So we have to take our break now, so, thank you.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, could I just remind Your Honours,
21 that, if possible, could we have a decision after the next break because
22 we need to make arrangements if the witness is to come on Monday -- I'm
23 sorry, after this break.
24 JUDGE HALL: We resume in 20 minutes.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
3 JUDGE HALL: We haven't forgotten the urgings of the OTP as
4 regards the decision on the motion referred to. It is not -- we are not
5 yet ready; but in the course of today, certainly, we will give our
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 MR. OLMSTED:
9 Q. Mr. Drasko, I want to move to another topic.
10 Can you tell us, Who was the Visegrad basic prosecutor before
12 A. Mr. Sahim Muhic.
13 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
14 A. He was a Muslim. Now he's a Bosniak.
15 Q. And what happened to him?
16 A. I think he left earlier. He left Visegrad earlier. I have all
17 his documentation. Among other things, his award. He came after the war
18 with his son. And when his son got this award, he said, Well, I can see
19 now that my father was a commie, and started laughing. In other words,
20 he was a member of the League of Communists and had an award for that.
21 We kept it for him.
22 Q. So between when Mr. Muhic left Visegrad and when you began
23 performing the basic prosecutor work in September of 1992, who was acting
24 as basic prosecutor during that time-period?
25 A. The position was vacated at the time, the premises were empty.
1 Yes, they registered a few cases, but there was no prosecutor there to
2 process them. And then I was invited to work as a prosecutor. They told
3 me I should start working even before I got elected because there were
4 some urgent cases, especially cases involving murder.
5 Q. From September 1992, for the rest of that year, was there ever a
6 time when you were unable, as a prosecutor, to receive criminal reports
7 from the police?
8 A. Whatever I received, I had registered. It -- all the criminal
9 reports we received are part of our file of the prosecutor office. Of
10 course, it's the police who chooses what to report and what not. I could
11 not influence them because I was part of the military at the time. I was
12 not at the prosecutor's office all the time, and I could not control what
13 was being taken into the register.
14 Q. When you arrived Visegrad at the end of August, was there already
15 a basic court established in the municipality?
16 A. Yes. Basic court existed. The president of the court was
17 Ms. Milanka Tanaskovic. The judge was another person from Visegrad, a
18 woman who wanted to become prosecutor. And upon my arrival, when I
19 started writing my requests, this women, Rada Bogdanovic, wrote in that
20 my intention was to become a judge because she wanted to be the
21 prosecutor. She added, Well, he can be both prosecutor and a judge.
22 But, in the end, I was appointed the prosecutor and she remained a judge.
23 I took this as some kind of humiliation for us refugees. You're
24 supposed to just sit down and be quiet with your colleagues playing games
25 with you, like she wouldn't know what's the difference between a judge
1 and a prosecutor and why would one be one or the other.
2 Q. These two judges, what were their ethnicities?
3 A. All of them were Serbs.
4 Q. As basic prosecutor, did you become familiar with the members of
5 the police force in Visegrad?
6 A. Yes. There was a police station there, a police station
7 organised. It had a commander, a commissaire. And Josipovic was --
8 Milan Josipovic was the police commissary. Then they had chiefs of crime
9 investigation department and all the other departments. And they also
10 had the reserve force. They were under their control.
11 Q. Who was Risto Perisic?
12 A. Risto Perisic was a teacher. He taught literature. And in the
13 wartime period he was appointed as the chief of police. But he was a
14 teacher of Croatian, by profession.
15 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
16 A. A Serb.
17 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take a look at 65 ter 2812.
18 Q. What we're looking at is the SJB Visegrad salary payment list of
19 employees in October 1992.
20 Mr. Drasko, can you confirm whether this is a list of active SJB
21 Visegrad employees around the time that you were in Visegrad, in 1992?
22 A. Yes, I'm certain about that.
23 Q. If we look at number 13, we see the name Sredoje Lukic. And
24 there's a remark near his name, that he was --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- that he was suspended on 19 August 1992.
2 Do you know the reasons for his suspension?
3 A. Based on the documentation I read, I know that he released from
4 prison a certain Svjetlana Pavlovic. I didn't know -- I didn't know, at
5 least at the time, who that person was. That this was done without any
6 authorisation. Also, he failed to appear at his work, especially when
7 then there was something to be done. And after the procedure was carried
8 through, he was suspended from the police. That's what I saw in the
9 documents. And we can also see that Milutin Cedo is mentioned here; he
10 committed suicide. He blew himself up using a hand-grenade after a
11 quarrel with his wife. Milan Josipovic also got killed later on. He was
12 killed in his shop.
13 MR. OLMSTED: May this document be tendered into evidence.
14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1480, Your Honours.
16 Q. You mentioned that there was a reserve police force in Visegrad.
17 Can you tell us approximately how many reserve police officers there were
18 in September of 1992?
19 A. I believe that approximately they had -- they were of equal
20 numbers as the regular police, because the area they covered was rather
21 large, and they participated in the fighting as well.
22 Q. By the time you arrived Visegrad at the end of August 1992, were
23 there any non-Serb members of the police in Visegrad?
24 A. No, all of them were Serbs.
25 Q. From September 1992 through the end of the year, did you attend
1 any meetings with the police leadership in Visegrad?
2 A. Yes. I made avail of the opportunity that as the coordinator of
3 the work of state authorities I could organise meetings with judges,
4 police, military administration. We did -- held a few meetings where we
5 analysed our work and discussed ways of improving it. I remember well
6 that, in a way, I complained to some leaders about civilians being
7 physically abused and beaten instead of treated differently, because such
8 cases existed. We mentioned cases of two people who one got mad and the
9 other one committed suicide. And then another man who was beaten by the
10 police jumped out of the window, killing himself. Because these people
11 were afraid and because of this fear, something happened to their
12 personality. They got deranged. And using these examples, I used them
13 to explain that people must not be beaten. And then Josipovic said, No,
14 No, only we can beat. And another man said, No, one must stick to the
16 They were rather strict. I didn't bring my car over from
17 Capljina, and I couldn't have registered it in Visegrad. I wasn't
18 allowed to do that with my car. Only when I got back to Capljina I
19 managed to do that. And, on the other hand, policemen who had forged
20 their diplomas would sit into their cars and take me to Ruda. This
21 person's name was Rakil [phoen], and it turned out later that he has
22 provided a counterfeit diploma, and he worked as a policeman using that.
23 And me, as a judge and a prosecutor, I couldn't explain to anyone that I
24 have a driving licence for ten years or more. Even my complaints sent to
25 higher authorities didn't help.
1 I was certainly not privileged. I was all the time in conflicts
2 with them, especially with this man Perisic.
3 Q. And that's why I want to address your attention to -- did you
4 attend meetings at which the -- the SJB chief Perisic was present in
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And at those meetings, did you raise these issues of -- of police
8 misconduct with the chief?
9 A. I did not discuss that with them specifically because that's part
10 of their authority. But we did discuss the training of police according
11 to the European Conventions. I gave such proposals to the command and
12 also to -- in relation to the reserve police force and also stressed that
13 they should abide by the legality of the police work.
14 And, on one occasion, I confronted them because there was a
15 refugee who was accused of having stolen some tools, and it turned out
16 that it was something he brought from Zenica. The judge in the -- in his
17 judgement said that the tools should be returned to him, although the man
18 was indicted for theft. And then there was -- there were accusations
19 against us made at the Assembly meeting, but we received support by the
20 Assembly saying, No, you police do your work and let the prosecutors do
21 their work. But we did have problems with him and his friends Savic and
22 Mota Mjilkovic [phoen] precisely because of this case.
23 Q. I want to break this down a little bit. You mentioned that
24 police were mistreating persons, they were beating them. What other
25 crimes were the police engaged in, in 1992? Were they engaged in any
1 property crimes, theft, looting?
2 A. I know that there were lootings of property. It was observed on
3 occasions that police officers were involved or present. People
4 complained to me in town. On one occasion, a policeman stopped a
5 religious official's secretary in a hotel in Visegrad and took 600 marks
6 from him, beat him up with a gun, and took even some petrol from his car,
7 and sent him to Sarajevo; but the man, instead of going to Sarajevo, came
8 to me, and then I made a criminal report and processed the case. But the
9 man died in the meantime.
10 He remained in the Federation, namely; and the investigative
11 judge from Visegrad was trying to locate him in Visegrad or somewhere in
12 Republika Srpska. So in the end, this case was never really processed.
13 Again, Novo Rajak had a fist fight with some policemen and then policemen
14 took guns and started shooting him, and then a third man died, brother of
15 Stanko Pecikoza, who was, himself, murdered before then.
16 Q. Let me stop you there before you go too long. These beatings by
17 police officers and these other -- these thefts by police officers, did
18 you bring these crimes to the attention of the SJB chief?
19 A. I wrote a letter, yes. I told him plainly, If you don't know
20 much about law, you should know about literature. And then I quoted
21 Njegos, a poet, who is saying that if the law is in the stick, then --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters apologise, but we cannot do
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I sent this letter to him, and I
25 wrote it in this literary style because he wasn't a lawyer and I knew he
1 wouldn't understand the legal writing. But what could I do? I realised
2 that he has no appreciation for the law.
3 MR. OLMSTED:
4 Q. And when you wrote to Chief Perisic about these police crimes,
5 how did he respond? What was his response to you?
6 A. He was phlegmatic. He normally wouldn't react strongly. He
7 would allow things, he was tolerant. He wasn't attacking peoples. And
8 later on, when Republika Srpska MUP decided to have him dismissed, I know
9 that the chief from Foca, Mr. Mandic, wrote that the man had created
10 Visegrad -- made Visegrad into a crime location and they wanted to
11 dismiss the man. They did dismiss him in the end. But although I was in
12 conflict with him, the municipal authorities asked me to go talk to
13 Karadzic and to ask Karadzic for Perisic to be brought back, although the
14 man was harassing me and took my car. But I went. And we came to
15 Radovan Karadzic's office on the day when the Dayton Agreement was
16 signed. His secretaries told me, He cannot receive you. But then
17 Pecikoza came, who was the director of Terpentin, he came -- I can tell
18 you in brief what this is all about. We want Risto back. And then he
19 said, Go there. And I said, It should be done.
20 So in the end nothing came out of the meeting. The man was not
21 brought back to his position. Instead, he was really dismissed.
22 Q. Just to clarify. Chief Perisic was he dismissed in 1992 or
23 sometime after that?
24 A. It was later, in a later period. At the time of the signing of
25 the Dayton Agreement. I think, maybe if you can remind me, I think it
1 may have been on the 29th of December, 2000 -- no, 1995.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's fine. That's close
4 When you informed Chief Perisic about these police crimes, did he
5 acknowledge that his police were committing crimes? Did he admit that,
6 yes, they are committing crimes?
7 A. No, he didn't criticise much, and people around him were rather
8 gay. They used to call him Tito, and I asked why. And explained, Well,
9 Tito used to steal but would give to us as well. And this is the same
10 with Risto. So was giving crumbs to the police so that he tolerated
11 them, they tolerated him, and then they protected him as well.
12 Q. What were the police doing to investigate and report crimes
13 against non-Serbs in 1992?
14 A. They weren't reporting crimes, especially those against
15 non-Serbs. I never received one single criminal report. And, of course,
16 that's -- you cannot find them in our files, with the exception of minor
17 cattle thefts where farmers would be accused.
18 There was one scandal where chiefs of municipalities forged
19 documents for cars, for instance, Fazlagic Ermin [phoen] comes to
20 Visegrad, a Muslim, and in the middle of the war, a Muslim comes to
21 Visegrad to sell a car. This was obviously a forgery. Srecko Ninkovic
22 was, at the time, chief of the crime department in Rudo, and I received a
23 few criminal reports from him against prominent people and policemen as
24 well. However, this document reached first Milan Josipovic who was
25 supposed to bring them into me, but along the way he showed them to Risto
1 and they simply removed them, they didn't pass them on to the
2 prosecutor's office. I didn't know about them. They didn't reach the
3 files. And when Srecko Ninkovic checked and saw that they weren't in our
4 files, he brought another set of the same criminal reports and only then
5 the proceedings started.
6 Q. You mentioned Milan Josipovic. What position did he hold with
7 the police in 1992?
8 A. He was a police commander, "komandir."
9 Q. Now, did you ever raise the issue of this failure to investigate
10 crimes against non-Serbs with your superiors, with the higher prosecutor
11 or the republican prosecutor, in 1992?
12 A. I can freely say that I asked for them to come to meetings in
13 Visegrad on several occasions, but they never showed up. Military showed
14 up and police, but these didn't come. And then later on with the war
15 crime commission, me, Simic, and Kostic, when we were supposed to go to
16 Bileca to hand over the documentation I had collected about Dretelj camp
17 and the events there, which remained in Bileca, they sent me back from
18 Pale, Mr. Kladanac and Mr. Staka, telling me, You should deal with thefts
19 in Visegrad; we don't want to know about war crimes; this is a private
20 affair of yours, obviously.
21 It seemed they were criticising. Apparently it was because my
22 wife was in a camp that's the only reason why I wanted to do something
23 about it. So I realised then that nobody's interested in prosecuting war
24 crimes and that the principle of state - it's me - is what applied in our
25 country, and that authorities are not willing to abide by the law.
1 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take a look at 65 ter 3419.34.
2 Q. I'm going to ask to you mark a couple of things on this
4 Mr. Drasko, you already have in your hand the pen. Can you tell
5 us -- we're looking at an aerial photograph. Can you tell us what we're
6 looking at right now?
7 A. This is a photograph of Visegrad.
8 Q. Can you mark with a number 1 on the screen where the SJB building
9 was located in 1992?
10 A. It was across this bridge. This was the building of UPI and this
11 was the police building and here is the building of the recruitment
12 office, the military recruitment office. And this is UPI.
13 Q. Let me stop you there. Can you mark with a number 1, with a
14 numeral 1, on top of the SJB building?
15 A. 1, SJB. This is 2, military recruitment office. And this is
17 Q. Can you mark with a --
18 A. This is the bridge. And if you go left, will you come to the
19 court and other administrative buildings. And then, across the bridge,
20 if you cross here, there was Borac.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Drasko, please just
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Because have you to understand that this is a transcript and
25 therefore you -- what you're commenting on now will not show up in the
1 transcript. So please wait until I ask you a question.
2 Can you mark with a --
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Can you mark with a -- I guess we're on number 5. Can you mark
5 with number 5 where the prosecutor's office and the court's office was
7 A. It's this office, 5. This is 5. This is the building where the
8 court was and the prosecutor's office. And 6 is the municipal building.
9 They were one next to the other.
10 Q. You will see directly across the river from the SJB building
11 there is a mosque. Can you see that?
12 A. The mosque should be here on this corner, but it's demolished.
13 You can see that it's demolished. And this is the demolished building.
14 This is where the mosque was.
15 Q. That mosque across the river, was it destroyed by the time you
16 arrived in Visegrad in 1992?
17 A. It was totally destroyed. There was just some rubble left. I
18 was fishing here. And here, right across the river, was the Mula Hasic
19 house where I lived.
20 Q. All right. You don't have to mark anymore on the map -- on the
21 photograph. So you --
22 A. [No interpretation]
23 Q. Okay. Did you receive any criminal reports or investigation
24 reports regarding the destruction of that mosque from the police?
25 A. No. Neither for one mosque nor the other. I never received any
1 reports concerning them.
2 MR. OLMSTED: May this be tendered into evidence.
3 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1481, Your Honours.
5 MR. OLMSTED:
6 Q. Mr. Drasko, you can sit down, if you prefer.
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. OLMSTED: If we could have on the -- on the screen,
9 65 ter 1550.
10 Q. And while we're calling that up, Mr. Drasko, when the police, or
11 anyone for that matter, brought to the prosecutor a criminal report,
12 where was it recorded? Which log-books?
13 A. There were log-books. The main log-book was the KT log-book in
14 which reports against known adult perpetrators of crimes were entered.
15 In these log-books, they were ordered by the name or -- of the
16 perpetrator. Whereas, in court, the court log-books, the main element is
17 the number.
18 Then there were also log-books with reports against minor
19 offenders, perpetrators of criminal offences who were minors.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and was there also --
21 A. And there are log-books for -- concerning events where on-site
22 investigations are carried out and so on but the crime itself is not
23 yesterday clear.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, the
25 witness should be instructed to speak slowly because half of his answer
1 was not recorded.
2 MR. OLMSTED: And your -- Mr. Zecevic, your -- what you said was
3 also not recorded. Are you saying that he -- we missed something from
4 his answer?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, yes. Part of his -- of witness's answer
6 was not recorded because the witness was talking relatively fast. I'm
7 sure the interpreters were unable to catch everything. Because he was
8 listing basically the names of the log-books that were kept in the office
9 of the prosecutor at the time.
10 So if that is important - and I think it is - maybe you should
11 re-address the issue.
12 MR. OLMSTED:
13 Q. Yes. Let me take you through it, just to save some time.
14 You mentioned there was KT log-book and that was for known adult
15 perpetrators; is that correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And there was also a KTN log-book and that was for unknown
18 perpetrators; is that correct?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And then I believe you also mentioned there was a KTM log-book
21 and that was for minors?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If you could look at the screen, we see a KT log-book.
24 MR. OLMSTED: Perhaps we could enlarge the B/C/S version a little
1 Q. Can you confirm, is this the 1992 through 1994 Visegrad
2 Prosecutor's Office KT log-book?
3 A. Yes. Well, that -- they bound it this way. Now, it didn't look
4 like this formerly. And I can see that now it says, "Republika Srpska
5 District Prosecutor's Office in Eastern Sarajevo;" whereas we were
6 called, "Basic Prosecutor's Offices Visegrad." And -- but prosecutor's
7 offices were restructured. So we are now only one department of the
8 Cantonal Prosecutor's Office -- or, rather, the eastern office in the
9 Republika Srpska. So basic Prosecutor's offices are no longer in
10 existence in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
12 MR. OLMSTED: If we can turn to page 8 of the B/C/S, page 2 of
13 the English translation. And if we can scroll down a little bit in the
15 Q. Mr. Drasko, according to this KT log-book, how many criminal
16 reports were provided to your office in 1992?
17 MR. OLMSTED: Maybe we can zoom --
18 A. In 1992, I think there were only five.
19 Q. Right. And I think we're looking at them. They're entries
20 number 23, 24, 25, 26, and 27.
21 Is that right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. And if we look at the first one, entry number 23, which you
24 received from, according to this log-book, the SJB Visegrad on the
25 9th of September, 1992, can you tell us --
1 MR. OLMSTED: And perhaps we can zoom in a little bit on that
3 Q. -- what was the crime charged?
4 A. It's the criminal offence of endangering the safety of persons.
5 It is a less serious criminal offence, where summary proceedings are
6 possible. And I see that such proceedings, indeed, were launched.
7 Q. And can you tell us, What was -- were what the ethnicities of the
8 perpetrator and the victim of that crime?
9 A. They were Serbs, all of them.
10 Q. And if we look at the second entry, which is number 24, which was
11 received from the SJB Visegrad also on the 9th of September, 1992, can
12 you tell us what was the crime involved in that case?
13 A. It's the criminal offence of murder. Krsto Baranac killed his
14 relative. They were together in the yard; they had been drinking; and he
15 noticed at a point in time that the neighbour's cow was coming to his
16 yard. And he started yelling, Why are you -- why do you leave your cow
17 roaming about? And then he took a log and started beating his neighbour.
18 That neighbour didn't have children. And he beat him up badly with that
19 log which he took from the firewood.
20 Q. And that's all right. Unfortunately, due to time, let's not go
21 through the facts of the case. I'm just going to ask some very small
22 questions regarding each one.
23 Can you tell us, What were the ethnicities of the perpetrator and
24 the victim?
25 A. They were all Serbs from the same village, Zrnica.
1 Q. Let's look at the third entry, entry number 25, which you
2 received from SJB Visegrad on 2 December 1992. And can you tell us, What
3 was the crime in that case and the ethnicity of the victim and
5 A. Gogic and the injured party Marinko were also neighbours. And
6 there was a quarrel between them. Marinko was a rash plan. Stanimir
7 asked him to return the money that his children had taken from him, and
8 he took a rifle and started chasing him. Later he took a knife, too, and
9 they reached a neighbouring house where there was a rifle in front of the
10 house. And he took that rifle and killed him.
11 So this was qualified as a manslaughter because he -- it wasn't
12 premeditated. And he was also sentenced to a prison sentence. I believe
13 that the -- that the decision came into force too, that there was no
15 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the perpetrator and the victim?
16 A. They were both Serbs.
17 Q. The fourth and fifth criminal reports that are recorded in this
18 log-book, entries 26 and 27, they appear to be filed by private citizens.
19 Is that the case?
20 A. Yes. Obred Simsic shot at the window of his neighbour
21 Rosa Simsic because of a quarrel about some land, and she was wounded as
22 a consequence of that. It was qualified as attempted murder because he
23 was aiming at her head, and that's how it was treated.
24 Q. Both these cases, were they -- were the perpetrators Serbs and
25 the victims Serbs?
1 A. Yes. They were neighbours, Serbs, and this was mostly about
2 property left behind by Muslims.
3 Q. And just to clarify, entry 27 as well, that was a crime committed
4 by a Serb against a -- a Serb?
5 A. In this case, too, Milivoje Droca from Gorazde and Perosi Jakovic
6 from Visegrad, they knew each other well. They were on guard duty in the
7 war, and at a point in time Droca went to the wood because he was taken
8 short, and Pero didn't notice him; he mistook him for an enemy soldier,
9 shot and killed him.
10 Q. You had a chance to look at the 1992 entries as well as the 1993
11 and 1994 entries in this log-book. Were you able to identify any
12 criminal reports of crimes committed by Serb perpetrators against
13 non-Serb victims in 1992?
14 A. No. I reviewed all the log-books and I couldn't find a single
15 case of this type.
16 Q. And that's consistent with your recollection?
17 A. Yes. There were no reports in that period. But I checked again
18 now to find whether such a report may have been filed any way.
19 Q. Let's look at -- I just want to take a quick look at the 1993
21 MR. OLMSTED: If we can turn to page 10 in the B/C/S and
22 page 4 in English, and I want to look at entry number 4.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the beginning.
24 MR. OLMSTED:
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes --
1 A. The persons entered --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. --
3 A. -- for war crimes committed in the area around Visegrad. There
4 are a number of them.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, you --
6 A. Quite a number.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... yes, you -- I think you
8 anticipated my question, but let me ask it.
9 I want to look just right now at entry number 4. And we see that
10 the criminal report charged the perpetrators with a crime under
11 Article 142 of the SFRY Criminal Code and that the crime was committed on
12 the 21st of July, 1992.
13 Are you telling us that that was a war crime charge?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And -- according to this log-book, who submitted the criminal
16 reports? If we can look at the column 4.
17 A. Criminal reports were submitted by the military police and by the
18 civilian police, too. Here, for example, the Visegrad SJB submitted a
19 criminal report, as you can see here, to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
20 because they considered them to have jurisdiction. But the corps
21 returned such reports so that they are registered at the prosecutor's
22 office in Visegrad.
23 You can see here the Army of Republika Srpska, the command of the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, entered as the -- those who submitted the
25 report, but they only returned it, because, actually, the reports had to
1 be submitted to the SJB of Visegrad. Sometimes they were drafted by the
2 command of the Visegrad Brigade, the reports.
3 Q. Let me ask you this: What is the ethnicity of the perpetrators
4 of this war crime?
5 A. The perpetrators of this war crime were Bosniaks who were then
6 considered -- who are called Muslims.
7 Q. We're not going to look through the following pages in this
8 log-book, but would you agree there are several more criminal reports of
9 war crimes committed by Muslims, submitted by the SJB Visegrad, that are
10 recorded in this book?
11 A. Yes. I reckoned that they were from the area of Rudo and
12 eastern Sarajevo, Serbian Sarajevo, actually, Kopaci, and then some other
13 places: Cajnice Rudo certainly belongs there, and so on. They all,
14 together, submitted about 170 criminal reports. It's all registered.
15 But next to these entries there are the criminal reports themselves --
16 or, rather, apart from them. They were submitted to the prosecutor's
17 office -- district prosecutor's office at Pale which started functioning
18 and which had jurisdiction for dealing with these reports in accordance
19 with the rules of the ICTY, and forward them for assessment.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
21 A. But what happened in 2001, when I went to Trebinje and collected
22 all these reports and submitted them to the prosecutor's office in
23 eastern Sarajevo, then Rajko Bojat bolstered that there was nothing, and
24 he rejected all these criminal reports, and none of them were really
25 dealt with. So whatever was entered here wasn't followed up on. And who
1 knows whether anybody will actually take -- take this up and put -- push
2 it through. There's also the association of former camp inmates who --
3 Q. It's all right. Yes, I'm sorry for interrupting you, but we need
4 to focus on 1992. I think you've answered the question that I asked.
5 MR. OLMSTED: May this be tendered into evidence.
6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1481, Your Honours.
8 I apologise. It's -- the number is P1482.
9 MR. OLMSTED: May we have on the screen 65 ter 2971.
10 Q. We see that we have in front of us a KTN log-book. Can you
11 confirm this is the KTN log-book for the basic prosecutor's office in
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 MR. OLMSTED: If we could turn to page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2
15 of the English. And if we can zoom in on the B/C/S a bit so he can see
17 Q. Mr. Drasko, are these the entries in the 1992 KTN log-book?
18 A. Yes. I reviewed it and saw that they were.
19 Q. According to this log-book, how many unknown perpetrator criminal
20 reports were received after you arrived at the prosecutor's office?
21 A. I believe that the information entered here is correct.
22 THE INTERPRETER: We couldn't hear the witness's last sentence
23 because he didn't speak into the microphone.
24 MR. OLMSTED:
25 Q. Sir, could you repeat your --
1 A. I -- the information is certainly correct. I checked it. What's
2 entered here is correct. However, I cannot turn pages here.
3 Q. That's fine.
4 MR. OLMSTED: If we can expand out a little bit on the B/C/S
5 version and re-focus it.
6 Q. If I read this correctly, the first three entries were -- predate
7 the conflict; they're from February and March 1992. And it's only the
8 fourth entry that was while you were a prosecutor in 1992; is that
10 A. I don't understand the question.
11 Q. Let me ask it again.
12 If I'm reading this log-book correctly, the first three entries,
13 entries 1, 2, and 3, were from before the conflict, and it's
14 entry number 4 that was entered while you were prosecutor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And this number 4 entry, can you tell us, What is the charged
18 A. Yes. It says Snjezana Markovic, Article 143.
19 Q. Is that a war crime?
20 A. No. I don't think it's Markovic, Snjezana.
21 Q. The victim. Is the victim -- what ethnicity is the victim?
22 A. We can see that -- her ethnicity Serbian. She is a Serbian
24 Q. And we can see she was charged under Article 143 of the SFRY; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Based upon your review of the entries from 1992
3 through 1994 in this KTN log-book as well as your personal recollection,
4 were any criminal reports filed for crimes committed in 1992 against
5 non-Serb victims?
6 A. No, they weren't at all. And about Article 143, it should be a
7 war crime. But this is interesting; Markovic, Svjetlana.
8 Svjetlana Markovic may have been a volunteer in the VRS and that's why
9 she was entered here. The 29th of December, 1992. Because Articles 143
10 and 144 of the Criminal Code of the SFRY, these are the generic offences
11 of the war crime type, from the general chapter -- general section of the
12 Criminal Code. It isn't clear what this is about, but it can be seen in
13 the file itself.
14 Q. Thank you. That's all we have for this document.
15 MR. OLMSTED: May this be admitted into evidence.
16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1483, Your Honours.
18 MR. OLMSTED:
19 Q. The final thing I want to do with you is go over a couple
20 particular crime incidents and find out whether you had any information
21 from the police regarding those crimes in 1992.
22 You already mentioned a house fire on Pionirska Street. Did you
23 receive any information from the police about a house fire that resulted
24 in the deaths of non-Serbs in 1992?
25 A. No, I did not. I didn't receive it from the police, and I didn't
1 know about it.
2 Q. And what about a house fire in Bikavac in 1992 that resulted in
3 the deaths of non-Serbs? Did you receive any information from the police
4 regarding such a crime?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. And what about the killing of non-Serbs along the banks of the
7 Drina River. Did you ever receive any information from the police
8 regarding such incidents in 1992?
9 A. No. Never.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, but this
11 is -- this is so unspecific question.
12 MR. OLMSTED: Yeah.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: And it has to have territorial limitation because
14 Drina is a long river.
15 MR. OLMSTED: Okay.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Why would he be informed about the crimes which are
17 not on his territory; that's the point.
18 MR. OLMSTED: That's fine. I'll accept that.
19 Q. In 1992 - you don't have to go into details - but in 1992, did
20 you know an individual by the name of Milan Lukic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you receive any reports or other information from the police,
23 the SJB Visegrad, about crimes committed by Milan Lukic against non-Serbs
24 in 1992?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What about Sredoje Lukic? Did you receive any information from
2 the police about crimes he committed against the non-Serb population?
3 A. No. Only I found out through private channels about some thefts
4 of his, that he allegedly stole a TV set from a woman. This case was
6 MR. OLMSTED: Let's look at 65 ter 2860.
7 Q. Mr. Drasko, were you aware that Milan Lukic was arrested at some
8 point in 1992?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And which authorities arrested him? Were they RS authorities, or
11 were they from Serbia?
12 A. From Serbia.
13 Q. Do you recall roughly when he was arrested?
14 A. I think it was in late 1992 or early 1993 that he was arrested in
15 Serbia for being in possession of arms -- or, rather, he was charged for
16 transporting weapons through Serbia, and then he was charged for
17 possession of weapons, according to their special law.
18 Q. We're looking right now at a document dated the
19 2nd of November, 1992. It's an Official Note of an interview with
20 Milan Lukic. It says here that he was arrested on the
21 26th of October, 1992.
22 Is that consistent with your recollection?
23 A. Yes. I think he may have been arrested at the time -- at that
24 time for the -- the weapons. But mainly because of the weapons.
25 MR. OLMSTED: If we could turn to the last page of this document.
1 Q. And if we look at the second-to-last paragraph, it states that:
2 "Milan Lukic was in custody on the grounds that he was carrying
3 weapons in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, a
4 misdemeanour under laws of the Republic of Serbia."
5 Is that consistent with your recollection regarding the reasons
6 for his arrest?
7 A. Yes. I don't think that, at the time, he was in detention for
8 Sjeverin and Strpci. It was only for possession of weapons, although in
9 Serbia they knew about it.
10 Q. Yes, and if we look at the third paragraph, there's mention that
11 he was interviewed about a murder as well as a kidnapping incident.
12 Can you tell us -- don't give us the name of the person murdered,
13 but was the person murdered -- what was his ethnicity?
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted.
23 MR. OLMSTED: Yes.
24 JUDGE HALL: A, it is past time for the adjournment; and B, you
25 have exhausted the -- your allotted two hours.
1 MR. OLMSTED: This is -- if I possibly can do -- one, finish with
2 this document, which won't take, I think, more than another five minutes.
3 And then I would like to show him one more photograph just for him to
4 pin-point places on it just because Your Honours won't be visiting
5 Visegrad during your site visit. So I think, at most, 15 minutes.
6 JUDGE HALL: But that will be when we return.
7 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, of course, Your Honour.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Olmsted, Madam Korner inquired at the
12 beginning of this hearing if it would make sense to address the issue
13 raised in the Defence motion of 22nd June, responding to the admission of
14 evidence relating to ST-137, and the Chamber has now had a look at it,
15 and we agree that a useful use of the time, Monday and Tuesday when we
16 cannot have Witness 137 come and testify, would be, actually, to re-call
17 ST-179 and -- for the purpose of cross-examining him in light of the
18 information which has come to light in 139's statements and testimony.
19 So we will use Monday and Tuesday for that purpose. And I hope
20 that it will be possible, if you react quickly, to actually call back 179
21 so as to make sure that he will be here by Monday.
22 But before we go any further, I think I'd like to ask Mr. Zecevic
23 and -- and Mr. Pantelic how much time would you need for the
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, we have a very few specific
2 questions, and we think maximum one hour would be needed for
3 cross-examination of that witness.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Probably less than that.
6 JUDGE HALL: And it be understood clearly that the
7 cross-examination in any circumstance would be limited to the issues that
8 you have raised in your motion.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Or in your response, paragraph 7, letter (a) to
11 (n), Alpha to November.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: That's correct, Your Honours. It is limited
13 to the -- the cross-examination is limited to the information that we
14 received post festo [sic] from the -- from the delayed disclosure of the
15 witness which was submitted.
16 JUDGE HALL: That is understood.
17 Mr. Pantelic, do you wish to cross-examine?
18 MR. PANTELIC: I don't believe so, Your Honour. We don't have --
19 maybe, if something just -- just to be sure, to be safe, 15 minutes. But
20 I don't think that we should have any issue for the cross.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
22 So, Monday will be reserved for the cross-examination of
23 Witness 179; and the Defence has indicated roughly one hour; and we would
24 give approximately the same time to the Prosecution to re-direct, or
25 re-examine Mr. 179.
1 I hope you will succeed in bringing him here and ask you to take
2 steps immediately to this effect.
3 MR. OLMSTED: We'll do our best, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Usher, would you bring in the witness.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 MR. OLMSTED:
7 Q. Welcome back, Mr. Drasko. I'm going to try to wrap up in
8 15 minutes, so let's try to keep your answers fairly short.
9 We're looking at this document. It's a interview of Milan Lukic
10 by Republic of Serbia authorities. And if we look at the third-to-last
11 paragraph, it mentions this kidnapping incident and mentions that the
12 victims were from a place called Sjeverin.
13 Can you tell us, is that in the Republic of Serbia?
14 A. It's on the border with -- Serbia is along the river of Uvac, and
15 then there are several crossing points, and Sjeverin is immediately on
16 the territory of Republic of Serbia, but then immediately after that they
17 have to enter the territory of Bosnia. So the border -- you can even
18 find a place in Serbia that's an isolated little island within the
19 Bosnian -- an enclave within the Bosnian territory. This is most
20 probably in Serbia, but to reach it you have to go through Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina. But they do have access because it's a road that belongs to
22 both states.
23 Q. The victims or the persons who were kidnapped, were they citizens
24 of Serbia?
25 A. They were all citizens of Serbia.
1 Q. To your knowledge, was Milan Lukic investigated for this
2 kidnapping incident at any point during the conflict, the years 1992
3 through 1995?
4 A. I know that Sefko Amerovic [phoen] visited to -- visited Rudo and
5 Priboj, also the head of state, the president of the state - what's his
6 name? - Cosic, and they asked for Lukic to be arrested. He was arrested
7 with the assistance of the VRS, and then he was escorted to the Uzice
8 prison. But, later on, VRS commander Pandurovic was later on attacked by
9 people for assisting the arrest -- or, rather, providing information as
10 to where Lukic was. Later on, Caruga - I think his real name is
11 Dragicevic - was saying that he should kill this officer.
12 Q. Let me stop you there. I want to talk about this kidnapping
13 incident that is reported or discussed in this particular document we're
14 looking in here.
15 Was this incident investigated and was Milan Lukic charged with
16 in kidnapping incident any time during the conflict in BiH, or was it
17 after the conflict in BiH that he was investigated and charged with it?
18 A. I think it was --
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, I believe my learned friend needs to --
20 needs to limit his question by saying "by whom." Whether it's the
21 authorities of Serbia, or authorities of Republika Srpska, or some other
22 authorities. For the clarification. Thank you.
23 MR. OLMSTED: Then I will clarify.
24 Q. By anyone, by the Republika Srpska or the Republic of Serbia, did
25 anyone investigate and then charge Milan Lukic with this kidnapping
1 incident during the conflict, meaning 1992 through 1995, or was it only
2 after the conflict?
3 A. Milan Lukic was immediately processed, but it was a farce because
4 he was not charged with kidnapping, he was charged with possession of
5 arms. There was a trial against him in Uzice but only for that crime,
6 not for the kidnapping in Sjeverin or for another case, the case of
8 Q. Now, in this -- on this occasion where he was detained on these
9 illegal weapons allegations, how long was he held by the law enforcement
10 in the Republic of Serbia? For how long?
11 A. About ten days, I think, he was held. And under pressure
12 excerpted by Milan's people, his mother and father, who came to Perisic,
13 to Visegrad to the police, they asked him back, threatened with
14 rebellion, and they wanted him to be released.
15 Q. After 1992, was Milan Lukic still in Visegrad?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. I note that the part of the
17 answer 63, 14, in relation to Perisic, what mother and father of
18 Milan Lukic did to Perisic was not recorded.
19 If the witness can repeat that.
20 MR. OLMSTED:
21 Q. Okay. Just returning very briefly to your prior answer, you
22 mentioned that the parents of Milan Lukic went to SJB Chief Perisic, and
23 what did they do?
24 A. They disarmed the police. They lined up the policemen and said,
25 If anything happened to him, we'll have a rebellion. They brought some
1 other special forces with him which threatened with a small war erupting
2 in Visegrad. Everybody was praying to go God that Lukic does not come
3 back to Visegrad, but they asked for his release and for the return of
5 Even I was sent to go to Serbia. I talked to the police. They
6 did not give me the weapons. They gave the weapons to Zika who was in
7 charge of Visegradska Banja. He got the weapons so that he can brag
8 about it. And then I went to the prosecutor, Slobodan, who gave me
9 books. We had a chat, and I realised it was all just a farce and that
10 they don't want to charge him for the kidnapping. They only tried him
11 for that later on.
12 Q. And you said that Milan Lukic was released. Did he return to
13 Visegrad in -- later in 1992 and in 1993? Was he in Visegrad?
14 A. He returned to Visegrad and was, again, arrested, I think, on
15 this second occasion in relation to Strpci. He became a businessman in
16 Visegrad, opened a cafe called Atina. Sredoje also opened a cafe or a
17 bar. They both became businessmen.
18 MR. OLMSTED: May this document be tendered into evidence.
19 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1484, Your Honours.
21 MR. OLMSTED:
22 Q. Now, finally, I want to show you 65 ter 3419.33.
23 While we're waiting for this document, Mr. Drasko, you said that
24 Milan Lukic was arrested a second time, on a second occasion. Was this
25 in 1993 or 1994? When was it?
1 A. I think it was in 1993 -- or 4th; I'm not sure. But I know that
2 he was again not charged with kidnapping in Strpci, that he was also,
3 again, released. And at the time he had already this catering facility,
4 Atina, in Visegrad, and he was soon released.
5 He wasn't tried for kidnapping until 2001 or 2002. Serbia then
6 tried him and Dragicevic.
7 Q. We're looking in front of us at a -- an aerial photograph. Can
8 you confirm that this is an aerial photograph of the area of Visegrad?
9 A. Yes. This is a photograph showing, depicting the area of
10 Visegrad, we can see here --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... before you start -- before
12 you comment on it, let's -- let's get -- hold on. Just hold on.
13 MR. OLMSTED: May we scroll over to the -- to the right, yes.
14 All the way, all the way.
15 A. Yes, this is better, so I see the other bridge as well.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... very good.
17 Now, can you mark, roughly, with a number 1, using the pen, can
18 you mark with a number 1 where the SJB was located in 1992?
19 A. The old bridge ... just let me focus for a moment.
20 This is the old bridge. The old bridge. And this up here is the
21 new bridge. This is Bikavac settlement, the Bikavac settlement.
22 Q. Sir, since you've found the Bikavac settlement, can you mark with
23 a number 1 the Bikavac settlement.
24 A. This -- this is Bikavac. The new buildings there. That's
1 Q. Okay. Can you put a number --
2 A. This is the new bridge, the blue bridge. And this here is the
3 old bridge. And this bridge here is at the entrance into the city
5 Next to that bridge is the police station.
6 Q. Sir, yes, but we need you to be quite organised with this so that
7 we can get this into evidence.
8 Can you mark, with a number 1, Bikavac. With a number 1.
9 A. This is number 1, Bikavac.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... now with a --
11 A. I don't know whether you see it.
12 Q. We see it, and it looks kind of like two triangles, but we will
13 accept in the record that that's a number 1.
14 Can you mark with a number 2 where the SJB building was located?
15 A. It doesn't leave mark at the same place where I draw it. It it's
16 a bit to the right from where I want it.
17 MR. OLMSTED: Why don't we clear it and try it one more time.
18 Q. Sir, if you can just hold on. I think what we're going to do
19 is --
20 A. It is off the mark about 30 centimetres to the right.
21 MR. OLMSTED: Can we clear the screen.
22 Q. And then what we'll do -- Mr. Drasko, just follow my instructions
23 exactly so we make sure that the exhibit is properly marked.
24 If you can please now mark with a number 1 - just a line - where
25 Bikavac settlement is.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Now, can you -- you showed us before that the SJB building was
3 near the water edge and near a bridge. Can you mark with a number 2
4 where that SJB building is on this aerial photograph.
5 A. Yes, it's off to the right again. Maybe 10 to 20 centimetres.
6 Q. Okay. Could you mark the number 2.
7 A. This pen is off to the right. It's impossible. The pen is not
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: May I suggest we use a physical photocopy of the
10 picture, if have you it. Because apparently the electronic system is not
11 calibrated at the moment.
12 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Your Honour, for the suggestion.
13 Q. Mr. Drasko, what I'm going to do is I'm going to hand you --
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And put it on the ELMO.
15 MR. OLMSTED:
16 Q. -- this exhibit, 65 ter 3419.33, and ask you to mark with a
17 regular pen these few locations.
18 A. The old bridge.
19 Q. So mark, with the number 1, Bikavac.
20 A. Police station, 2.
21 Q. And then can you mark with a number 3 where Pionirska Street is
23 A. 3.
24 Q. And, finally, can you tell us, What's the distance between the
25 SJB and Pionirska Street roughly, in metres?
1 A. 400 metres.
2 MR. OLMSTED: May this be admitted into evidence. Or do we have
3 to publish it first? I --
4 Q. Mr. Drasko, that's fine. We're just going to publish it for the
5 Trial Chamber and for the Defence.
6 JUDGE HALL: It's admitted and marked as an exhibit. But,
7 technically speaking, I'm not sure what is -- what has been tendered,
8 but ...
9 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours, obviously we had to go through
10 the old fashioned way of a manual photograph, and the witness has marked
11 on it three locations: 1, Bikavac; 2, the SJB building; and,
12 3, Pionirska Street.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P1485, Your Honours.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Can -- can --
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: I can see 1 and 2 on the map -- ah, 3 is up
16 there. Right. Thanks.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a long street. It's all the
18 way up there. It starts at Cadjava Kafana, it's a one-way street, and
19 leads towards Banpolje. It's a very long street.
20 MR. OLMSTED: And, Your Honours, that completes my
22 JUDGE HALL: Before counsel for the Defence commences the
23 cross-examination, I have been alerted, Mr. Olmsted, to the fact that the
24 OTP requests three minutes. My experience is that such precise estimates
25 of time tend to cause problems particularly at the end of the day
1 sittings. Should I alert counsel to five minutes that you would need,
2 rather than three?
3 MR. OLMSTED: Sure, let's round it up to five.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thanks.
5 [Microphone not activated] Mr. Cvijetic, counsel for the
6 Prosecution has requested five minutes to deal with housekeeping matters,
7 so would time yourself accordingly.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
10 Q. [Interpretation], Mr. Drasko, good afternoon.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. I'm Slobodan Cvijetic, attorney-at-law, and one of the Defence
13 counsel on the Defence team of the accused, Mr. Mico Stanisic.
14 I will now try to elicit some more precise information from you
15 concerning the sequence of events that led to your appointment as public
16 prosecutor in Visegrad.
17 As far as I understood, you were officially appointed on
18 31st of October, 1992; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. However, there's something that caught my attention, and I
21 noticed it in your statement, too.
22 After that, you were also in the army as member of the so-called
23 TG Rudo, tactical group?
24 A. TG Rudo, yes, Visegrad Brigade.
25 Q. I deliberately spelled it out for the Bench to know what TG
1 stands for, and I said that it is actually a tactical group.
2 As member of that tactical group, you carried out some military
3 missions; correct?
4 A. [No verbal response]
5 Q. I don't believe that your answer was recorded. You must give an
6 oral answer.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. So practically, from the 31st of October on, you acted as
9 prosecutor only temporarily because, parallel to that, you also had
10 duties in the military; correct?
11 A. [No verbal response]
12 Q. Now please give an oral answer because it wasn't recorded.
13 Is what I say correct?
14 A. It is correct.
15 Q. If I remember well, you said that you were practically requested
16 or asked to deal with some demanding and urgent cases, mostly murders,
17 for the perpetrators to be brought to justice; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You will agree with me when I say, then, won't you, that there
20 was no organised and systematic activity of the prosecutor's office
21 before 1993; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In 1993, you mentioned a date. Let us just check its
25 I believe you said that you stayed a member of the TG Rudo until
1 the 31st of January, 1993; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can we then conclude that only after that date did you start
4 working as a prosecutor in an organised fashion?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Furthermore, I noticed in that KT log-book, when Mr. Olmsted
7 showed it to you, a large gap in the entries, starting from
8 March 1993 [as interpreted] through, I believe, August or September of
9 the same year; correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Furthermore --
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, it has been recorded
13 wrongly. The year in question is 1992, not 1993, as recorded.
14 Q. After that, in 1992, only the urgent cases that you were asked to
15 take over were entered in the log-book.
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the second
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. --
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Please repeat the second sentence.
22 A. The court registry entered it in the log-books.
23 Q. Very well. This was going to be my next question, basically. As
24 far as I could tell from your statement and from what you said, you only
25 got a registry clerk in 1993.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers overlapped. The answer has to be
2 repeated. Sorry.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do repeat your answer now.
5 A. Jela Rosic was hired as a clerk then. She started working
6 permanently at the prosecutor's office then. She was under a work
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Drasko, there's something I should have pointed
9 out before Mr. Cvijetic began his cross-examination. Inasmuch as the two
10 of you speak the same language, you have to bear in mind, both of you,
11 that time has to be allowed for the interpretation of question and the
12 answer so that it is properly recorded in the transcript.
13 So that the -- be aware of that gap between the question and when
14 you begin your answer. Thank you.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So we can say that the small prosecution team was only
17 established in 1993. And when I say that, I mean auxiliary personnel,
18 too. Am I right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Very well.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see
22 Exhibit 1D03-4295.
23 Q. I suppose that you recognise the decision on your appointment as
24 public prosecutor in Visegrad. Can you see it on your screen?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And it, indeed, reads that on the 31st of October, 1992, you were
2 officially appointed?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is a document
5 that the witness is obviously familiar with, and I don't think that it is
6 contested, so I seek to tender this.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Why?
8 JUDGE HALL: Is there any issue as to his having been appointed
9 as the public prosecutor? Why do we need the document?
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we need a
12 document to establish the exact date when the witness was appointed, and
13 there was much discussion about this, I believe that it can harm no one
14 to have a document about his appointment. But I don't insist on its
15 being tendered.
16 JUDGE HALL: I didn't appreciate that the date of his appointment
17 was an issue. The --
18 Mr. Olmsted?
19 MR. OLMSTED: No, in fact, I elicited that from him during
20 examination-in-chief that he was formally appointed on 31st of October.
21 And, as he testified, he -- he began functioning as a prosecutor much
22 earlier than that, in September. So there is no dispute as to when his
23 formal appointment was made.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the
1 exact date when the witness started working is more topical now than ever
2 because it concerns the issue of the legality of his activity until that
4 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... admitted and
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D332, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Registrar, what is the 65 ter number of
8 this document, please.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honours?
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Drasko, do you remember who actually made the proposal that
14 you be appointed?
15 A. I was invited by Mr. Branimir Savovic to write an application. I
16 left the command to the basic court because they had typists who could
17 type the application. Radomira Bogdanovic suggested that she write it.
18 But then I noticed that she wrote that I was applying for the position of
19 judge rather than prosecutor. Then I corrected her. And then she wrote
20 that it was an application for both a judge and a prosecutor. She took
21 the opportunity because she had a typewriter, although I can type with
22 ten fingers, and I accepted to run for both positions, because probably
23 she wanted to apply for the position of prosecutor. The two of them were
24 the only ones there.
25 Q. I must stop you here because you haven't answered my question.
1 Who officially submitted the proposal to the Ministry of Justice
2 or to the Assembly of the RS for you to be appointed?
3 A. I don't know who did it officially, but I handed my application
4 to Branimir Savovic at his office.
5 Q. Then you must tell us who Mr. Branimir Savovic is.
6 A. Branimir Savovic, at the time, was the president of the
7 municipality of Visegrad.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please see
9 document 1D03-4292.
10 Your Honours, this document was sent to the translation service,
11 but I'm not sure that we've received a translation yet. I'll -- I would
12 ask this document to be enlarged for the witness to be able to see it
14 Q. Mr. Drasko, I can see from this document that the proposal for
15 your appointment was submitted by the Wartime Commission of the Visegrad
16 Municipality. Can you see it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I'm sure you will --
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic,
20 what is this document? We have no idea what we're looking at now.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am trying to
22 provide you the basics through the witness before we submit, of course,
23 the translation.
24 This is a proposal regarding appointment, Mr. Lazar Drasko, to
25 the position of public prosecutor. We in the Defence find it relevant
1 because of who submitted the proposal. Based on this document, based on
2 the heading, we can see that it was the Wartime Commission of the Serbian
3 Municipality of Visegrad. And my question to the witness was whether he
4 could confirm that it was the Wartime Commissioner Office that sent this
5 document to the Ministry of Justice and Administration.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And why -- sorry. And why is that relevant?
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it will be clear
8 once I've shown to the witness the documents related to the appointment
9 of the entire police station and based on whose request. I'm trying to
10 demonstrate the role of the local authorities in appointment of justice
11 and police organs in Visegrad.
12 We will just need to see the last page of this document and the
13 signature there.
14 Q. And that will be all that I will be showing to you now.
15 Can you confirm this was signed by Branimir Savovic?
16 A. [No verbal response]
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. It should state "Branimir Savovic." Can you repeat your answer,
21 A. Yes, Branimir Savovic. But it is clear that this is not my text,
22 that they used my text as the basis for this, my application. Because
23 the application does not contain my signature.
24 Q. There's just one note in bold writing. It says:
25 "Dispatch received via radio station."
1 Can you comment on this, please?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know how they worked at the time.
3 Q. My question related to this document is the following: Have you
4 seen this proposal ever before?
5 A. No. I only know about my application, the one I submitted.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, although the witness
7 has not seen this proposal, I believe that it should go together with the
8 decision on his appointment, which is already in the evidence. The
9 witness confirmed that he was proposed to this position, to be appointed
10 to this position, by Mr. Savovic. And to have a clear picture about how
11 he was appointed to his position, I would like to ask for this document
12 to be marked for identification until we have a translation of this
14 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, we don't, of course, object to it
15 being marked for identification. But as far as it being admitted down
16 the road, well, we need a translation, 1; and, 2, as my learned friend
17 pointed out, this witness knows nothing about this document. I can't see
18 how this witness is the -- can tender it.
19 JUDGE HALL: Well, the -- there are two issues here. One is
20 that, as counsel on both sides have indicated, the well-worn path that we
21 have set out for documents of this nature is that if, in the Chamber's
22 view, they are potentially admissible - let me put it that way - that
23 they're marked for identification pending the translation. But the
24 second issue is that the most that I -- the highest that this document
25 can be taken, if I under Mr. Cvijetic correctly, is that it -- its
1 relevance is only its marriage to the document that was last reluctantly
3 So what -- how does this assist? Because the document that
4 was -- that's still up on the screen in English was - as counsel would
5 recall - admitted after some disputation, and the -- in the Chamber's
6 view, it was of tangential relevance only. So I don't know how we are
7 going to be assisted by a document which, as I said, at its highest, is
8 only married to that tangential document.
9 Put it simply, do we need this even after it's translated?
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe the full
11 answer to this, we will have only after I've -- I've shown the next
12 document, the document that deals with how the public security station of
13 Visegrad was established. And only then maybe one can reach an informed
14 decision about usefulness of this document.
15 Let me just remind you, with all due respect, Your Honours, that
16 you admitted several military reports that the witness did not know, was
17 not familiar with, yet he confirmed the contents. So what I'm doing here
18 is I'm abiding by that approach. And I do believe that this document is
19 of higher quality than the military reports that were admitted.
20 JUDGE HALL: Except, Mr. Cvijetic, that this line of documents
21 relates exclusively to his appointment, the fact of which is not in
23 Anyway, you have another document in train which would show us
24 how this is relevant. Perhaps you can move on to that and then renew
25 your application in respect of this document.
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours. I'm
2 afraid I won't have time.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic,
4 I -- Mr. Cvijetic, I have one other matter to raise.
5 You said to -- in order to get this document marked for
6 identification, you said that the witness confirmed that he was proposed
7 to this position by Mr. Savovic. I don't think he did so. You asked him
8 to assist you with an untranslated document, and he's confirmed that the
9 document was signed by this gentleman but he doesn't know anything about
10 it, so he can't confirm that he -- he was appointed by this gentleman.
11 He can confirm that this document is signed by this gentleman.
12 Am I correct?
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe you haven't
14 heard the witness who, at page 74, stated that he handed over his
15 application for this appointment to the said Mr. Savovic.
16 Q. Am I right, Mr. Drasko? You can answer now.
17 A. There is no contention about the fact that I was appointed by the
18 Assembly of Republika Srpska. It is also clear that I submitted an
19 application for the position of the public prosecutor -- of the
20 prosecutor. My colleague also added in that I applied for the position
21 of the judge.
22 Q. Whom did you hand this document to?
23 A. I took it to the municipality and handed it to Mr. Savovic. You
24 cannot see my signature here. They must have formed a file, but my
25 application must be part of it, somewhere in the ministry, because they
1 must have sent my application to Sarajevo as well. My application must
2 be there, including my signature, because I agreed to be a --
3 positioned -- to be put to that position.
4 Q. So you confirm that the Wartime Commission and Mr. Savovic worked
5 further on your application and then forwarded it; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, is -- does the witness know that he was
8 proposed to the Assembly by this Mr. Savovic? He said -- he said he
9 handed over his application to this gentleman, but that doesn't mean that
10 he was proposed to the Assembly by this gentleman or by the
11 War Committee. If he knows that, that's okay. Let the record show it.
12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... so you know
15 that that was the case, that you were proposed by the War Committee?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I submitted an application,
17 and then it's upon them to choose.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Hank you.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the essence of my
20 proposal was to confirm this case of mine by putting this into evidence;
21 but, of course, I'm -- for the time being, proposing only for it to be
22 marked for identification.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, that's not entirely correct, unless
24 I've misunderstood you. You told us that the relevance of the
25 appointment of this witness as prosecutor in Visegrad was to show the
1 larger image about not only who appointed or decided who should be
2 appointed as prosecutor but also who decided to be appointed as members
3 of the police. That last part we haven't heard anything about.
4 So if this is your point, then get on with it.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see the time, but
6 the document that will help us with this second issue is the following
7 document. It's a broader document. I will have some other questions to
8 put to the witness in relation to these other topics, but I don't think
9 we have time for that at the moment.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we would resume this issue tomorrow
12 Mr. Drasko, the trial is about to adjourn for the day. We aren't
13 going to rise immediately. The usher will escort you from the courtroom
14 before we rise. But before you leave, I am obliged to remind you that,
15 having been sworn as a witness, you can not have any communication with
16 the lawyers from either side, nor in your discussions outside the
17 courtroom can you speak about your testimony.
18 So we resume in this courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00.
19 Thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Olmsted.
22 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honour, first I have just a notification:
23 This is to inform the court that we uploaded an official translation for
24 P510, which has the ERN ET -- P0035093.
25 And the issue I wanted to raise with -- oh, there's more.
1 P0035108. As well as an official translation of P530 with the
2 ERN 0018-4319, 0018-4333-ET. Thank you. That was the message.
3 Now, I just want to notify the Trial Chamber that, as far as
4 ST-179 is concerned, we have contacted him, and he is available to come.
5 The bad news, which may not be bad news, is that typically it takes five
6 working days to get a visa for him. But they're going to try to expedite
7 it. We have a witness who's scheduled to testify to start Wednesday, and
8 that witness cannot be moved up at all because it's -- the arrangements
9 have already been made. So, at worst case scenario, ST-179 would start
10 on Tuesday. But hopefully he will be here on Monday.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Olmsted.
12 So we take the adjourn --
13 Sorry, Mr. Zecevic, you were about to say something?
14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, I was expecting you would say that we were
15 adjourn, so I --
16 JUDGE HALL: So we take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow morning.
17 Thank you.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day
20 of June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.