Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12256

 1                           Monday, 28 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 6             Good afternoon, everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances for today, please.

12             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

13     Matthew Olmsted, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

16     Stanisic Defence.

17             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Igor Pantelic and

18     Dragan Krgovic for Zupljanin Defence.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I just would like to ask the

21     permission of the Trial Chamber to be excused because I have the

22     interview with the OTP witness scheduled at 2.30.  So I will be leaving

23     for 45 minutes.  Thank you very much.

24             Please, Ms. Korner.  Thank you.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, (redacted)

Page 12257

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15             Now, Your Honours, the ruling on that motion has not been made.

16     But the Prosecution, if Your Honours think it's right and -- and think

17     that the Defence have -- have a point, have no objection to re-calling

18     ST-179.  And it may be that the simplest thing, subject to us being able

19     to get a hold of him and being able to making arrangements, is that that

20     is the time when he's re-called.  It won't take up the two days that's

21     been set aside, but it's at least something.

22             Failing that, we could attempt to get hold of ST-142.  He is

23     quite a big witness as far as the Stanisic team are concerned, but it

24     would -- we'd be giving them, effectively, if we can get hold of him,

25     four days' notice.  He's, again, a -- I think he's a -- he is a 92 ter

Page 12258

 1     witness.

 2             But, Your Honours, if -- I think what we'd need today, if that's

 3     possible, simply a decision on that part of the Defence's application,

 4     namely, that we should re-call for further cross-examination ST-179.

 5             Your Honours, the Defence set out their position in -- in their

 6     application.  As I say, we have no objection, if Your Honours think that

 7     the application has merit.

 8             So that's the first matter.  I don't know whether Your Honours

 9     want to consider that now or perhaps consider it over the -- after the --

10     during the break.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Do Defence counsel on either side have a -- any

12     observations to make on this matter?

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, it would be -- it would be preferable

14     for the Defence of Stanisic that the first solution is adopted, which is

15     the re-calling of ST-179.  We stated our reasons for -- for our request

16     to re-call that witness based on the disclosure of the -- of the witness

17     which have been delayed disclosure which is the witness which was

18     supposed to appear next week.

19             Therefore, we would -- we gave our reasons in -- in a written

20     form, and I wouldn't like to repeat them once again in the -- in the open

21     court.

22             The -- as for the other solution, the calling of the other

23     witness, we feel that we ask and explained to Ms. Korner that we would

24     need at least seven to eight days to prepare for that witness, so we --

25     we asked them to notify us about his coming a bit in advance than usual.

Page 12259

 1             So in that respect, we would also welcome a decision of the

 2     Trial Chamber in the course of today's sitting.

 3             Thank you very much.

 4             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... that's the first

 5     matter.

 6             Then, Your Honours, Your Honours may think this is good news,

 7     particularly in the light of our still pending application to add the

 8     witnesses to deal with adjudicated facts.  We are not going to be calling

 9     the witness with the number ST-206.  That's a very lengthy witness.  We

10     had him down, I think, for eight hours.  And we've taken the decision not

11     to call him.  The Defence have been notified of that last week.

12             And we did notify Your Honours; we're not sure that we -- that

13     you took in - I don't mean it that way - because we didn't have any

14     response to it.  We're not calling, either, ST-119.

15             So, as I say, we are -- you'll remember, when Your Honours were

16     telling us to reduce our witness list early on, I said it was almost

17     certain that we would be reducing it by a natural attrition, and so we

18     are.  So that's actually removed quite a number of hours from the witness

19     list.

20             Your Honours, we then have the question of Ewa Tabeau.  We filed

21     an application on the 10th of March, applying to add her report, "Victims

22     of War," to her earlier report.  And we haven't -- the -- on the 24th of

23     March, the Defence opposed that and since then we haven't heard anything

24     at all, nor am I sure that we've had a ruling that she's to be treated as

25     an expert.  We wish to call her at the end of July, just before the

Page 12260

 1     break, we're having some difficulty in filling -- finding witnesses.  We

 2     appreciate that the Defence may not want to cross-examine until after the

 3     break, particularly as we haven't had a ruling yet one way or another on

 4     the second report, and so we were going to suggest that she is called;

 5     she'd be the last witness on the Wednesday -- no, Thursday, working on

 6     the basis that her report would go in, and we'd ask for a couple of hours

 7     or so extra with her on the Thursday before the break and then be

 8     cross-examined after the break.  But we do need rulings.

 9             And, Your Honours, I think, as far as I'm aware, unless I get an

10     e-mail to the contrary from anybody, that those were the matters that I

11     wanted to raise.

12             JUDGE HALL:  So noted, Ms. Korner.

13             Before the scheduled witness is brought in, are there any other

14     preliminary matters that need engage the Chamber's attention?

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Can you hear me, sir?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Please make the solemn declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  LAZAR DRASKO

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You may be seated.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 12261

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir, and thank you for coming

 2     to assist the Tribunal in its work.

 3             The first thing that I would do is to remind you that the solemn

 4     declaration that you have just made would expose you to the pain of the

 5     penalty of perjury should you give false or mislead testimony to this

 6     Tribunal.

 7             The first formal questions that the Chamber has of you is to ask

 8     to you state your name, your date of birth, and your ethnicity.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Lazar.  My last name is

10     Drasko.  I was born on 15th of January, 1948, in Tasovcici, municipality

11     of Capljina, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb by ethnicity.

14             JUDGE HALL:  And would you tell us what your profession is,

15     please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Currently, I'm -- I work as a

17     prosecutor at the cantonal prosecutor's office in Gorazde,

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19             JUDGE HALL:  You said "currently."  Were you doing something

20     differently before that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.  I graduated from law

22     school in 1970, in Sarajevo.  After that, I was an intern at the district

23     court in Mostar until 1973 at -- when I passed my bar exam.  In that

24     year, I was elected judge for the municipal court in Capljina.  I was a

25     judge at that court, and I spent a year with the JNA at Bileca, Pancevo,

Page 12262

 1     and Skopje.  And later, I continued.  And I believe it was in 1976 that I

 2     was elected prosecutor at the municipal prosecutor's office in Capljina,

 3     which covers the municipalities of Stolac, Ljubinje, and Neum.  In that

 4     position I remained until about 1983.  Then I became deputy director of

 5     the health centre in Capljina where I stayed for four years.  That was

 6     after the infamous Neum scandal when I had to leave.  And in 1988, after

 7     that scandal, the Assembly of the Republic started electing people for

 8     those positions.  And I opened a private attorney's office in Capljina,

 9     where I worked until the beginning of the war, I believe until the

10     1st of May, when I was drafted.  I was drafted to the VRS in Tasovcici,

11     my -- the place where I was born.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Have you testified previously before this Tribunal

13     or before any -- courts in any of the countries in the former Yugoslavia?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE HALL:  The procedure of this Tribunal is such as would not

16     be unfamiliar to you in that the -- you have been called by one side - in

17     this case, the Prosecution - and the counsel for each of the accused

18     would have a right to cross-examine you.  In terms of the time, the

19     Prosecution has been granted a total of two-hours to conduct their

20     examination-in-chief.  And counsel for the accused Stanisic, two hours;

21     and counsel for the accused Zupljanin, an additional hour.

22             The -- the Bench, after any re-examination the Prosecution may

23     have, would themselves have any questions -- may themselves have

24     questions of you; and, after that, your testimony would be -- would be at

25     an end.

Page 12263

 1             Ordinarily, the sittings of the Tribunal would be in this case an

 2     afternoon sitting; we would sit until 7.00 in the evening.  And there are

 3     two 20 minute breaks in between that.  The sittings do not exceed an hour

 4     and a half for technical reasons having to do with the taping system

 5     where tapes have to be changed.  But if, before the ordinary time of a

 6     break, you are in distress or for any reason you need a break, you could

 7     indicate that to the Chamber, and we would, of course, accommodate you.

 8             With that, I would invite counsel for the Prosecution to begin

 9     the examination-in-chief.

10             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Examination by Mr. Olmsted:

13        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Drasko.

14        A.   Good afternoon, Prosecutor.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You've already provided a part of your professional

16     background.  I wanted to start where you left off.

17             You said in May you were mobilised into the army in Tasovcici.

18     In early June, 1992, were you relocated to Bileca?

19        A.   Yes.  There was an offensive against Tasovcici and the entire

20     Neretva valley, and we Serbs, as well as those who were with us, who

21     failed to be Yugoslavs, Croats and Muslims alike, withdrew toward

22     Nevesinje.  That's what my sister did.  And I went to Bileca with my

23     children.  The offensive went on for a few days.  There wasn't

24     fighting -- there was no fighting, there were no casualties.  Only later

25     I knew that -- I found out that it was pursuant to the

Page 12264

 1     Boban-Karadzic Agreement.  So the Croatian troops did not cut us off at

 2     Stolac, but, rather, we were able to get out safely.

 3        Q.   What was your position that you held when you were in Bileca?

 4        A.   First, my position was that of an invalid.  I had broken a leg

 5     and had to an infirmary where I was treated, and I spent 15 days there in

 6     a stationary unit.  So when the fracture had healed, I was called up by

 7     Slobodan Cup [phoen] from Mostar; he is a lawyer by trade, and in the

 8     army he was a reserve officer.  And he invited me to join them in the

 9     command of the corps because I had graduated from the reserve officers

10     school in Bileca.  I was a reserve officer.

11             Apart from that, I attended the police school at Pancevo, and

12     later on I was at Skoplje, too.  So I had completed a course for military

13     police commander.  After leaving the army, I was Deputy Commander of the

14     staff -- army staff for Herzegovina.  Divjak worked there, too.  And our

15     last commander was a Macedonian.  I visited him and I saw that Yugoslavia

16     was breaking up, and I saw that genocide was under way and I asked him to

17     do something so as to prevent the war.

18        Q.   Let me stop you there.  Mr. Drasko, I know you really want to

19     provide a lot of information, but please try to focus on the questions

20     that I'm asking.

21             When you went to Bileca, I understand you were in hospital for --

22        A.   [No interpretation]

23        Q.   -- a bit.  Then you stated that you'd joined the corps there.

24     Would that be the Herzegovina Corps?

25        A.   Yes, the Herzegovina Corps.  The security service which was

Page 12265

 1     commanded by Captain Segrt.  I served under him and worked on

 2     administrative tasks and legal affairs.  There were also cases when

 3     perpetrators of some criminal offences had to be examined, especially

 4     perpetrators of murder.  The problem was that the offences were committed

 5     by military personnel, but military courts were not functioning.  And we

 6     would transfer such cases to the district prosecutor's office in

 7     Trebinje.

 8        Q.   And how long did you remain in this position with the

 9     Herzegovina Corps?

10        A.   About a month and a half.  There were two small children with me,

11     and my wife remained behind as a prisoner at the Dretelj camp, and my

12     children slept with me, so they understood it was better for me to go

13     home and take care of the children.  And also Colonel Nikola Milosevic

14     didn't like my saying that there was such a thing as the Dretelj camp and

15     that neither the army nor the international community were doing anything

16     for my friends and other people to be released from that camp.  He -- his

17     position was that I was a panic-maker.  So he said, Go home.

18             My wife was exchanged and was able to leave the camp on the

19     18th of August.  I had already been at home with my children for some

20     15 days.  When I say "at home," I say in an apartment that was given to

21     some friends of mine.

22        Q.   Now, next, after you left Bileca, you held two positions

23     simultaneously in Visegrad.  What were those positions?

24        A.   I arrived in Bileca on the 28th of August.  We found some

25     temporary accommodation.  And, after that, I reported to the corps

Page 12266

 1     command.  I was first drafted in by the army, where I was in charge of

 2     the legal affairs.  But I was also told that there were crimes and that

 3     they don't have a prosecutor, and I was immediately offered to be elected

 4     to the civilian prosecutor at the district court and that I should take

 5     up that duty because there were murders going on and its an urgent

 6     matter.  And then I went to the court, the Judge Milanka Tanaskovic gave

 7     me the files, she gave me the keys.  I saw the files, and then I drafted

 8     the requests for investigation.  But then, after completing that, every

 9     day I would return to the corps command where we also performed guard

10     duty during night.  Occasionally, we were there for communication

11     purposes.  We drafted criminal reports and did other legal jobs.

12        Q.   The record states that you were a prosecutor for the district

13     court.  Just to clarify, were you a basic public prosecutor in Visegrad?

14        A.   Basic.

15        Q.   And when did you first begin performing the function of basic

16     prosecutor?  When did you start actually taking in case files?

17        A.   The republic Assembly of Republika Srpska appointed me, I think,

18     on the 31st of October to this position, and since that day, I was able

19     to conduct these tasks.  But there were other cases that I had done prior

20     to that date.  I spent most of my time in TG Rudo until the

21     31st of January next year.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and I understand that

23     you're --

24        A.   2003.

25        Q.   Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Page 12267

 1             I understand that you were formally appointed to the basic

 2     prosecutor's position on the 31st of October, 1992.  But when did you

 3     actually start performing the role?  I understand that you started

 4     performing it before that.

 5        A.   Yes, I have mentioned that prior to my official appointment, and

 6     that was several days after my arrival in Visegrad, I was told that there

 7     were two or three murderers there who were in remand prison at the

 8     command and that requests should be drafted by me for investigation.  I

 9     did draft them, and I then forwarded them to the court so that the

10     investigation may start, so the cases would start being processed.  They

11     believed it was right thing to do because soon I were to be elected

12     prosecutor where there was nobody holding that position at the time.

13        Q.   Now, you were basic public prosecutor in Visegrad until 2001; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And after that you were district court judge in Trebinje until

17     2003; is that right?

18        A.   In the district court of Trebinje, yes.

19        Q.   And then from there, in 2003, you were -- started working for the

20     cantonal prosecutor's office in Gorazde.  And that's where you've worked

21     ever since; right?

22        A.   In Gorazde, yes.

23        Q.   Now, can you --

24        A.   Yes, it is correct.  However, I'm not the chief prosecutor since

25     2008.  I am just a prosecutor, and Bilajica Miksa [phoen] is now the

Page 12268

 1     chief prosecutor.

 2        Q.   Right.  Now, when you -- when you arrived in Bileca, who was

 3     commander of the Herzegovina Corps?

 4        A.   I think it was Radomir, Radomir Grubac.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's take -- let's take a look at 65 ter 3080.

 6             And we can see that this is a report from the Herzegovina Corps

 7     command dated 4 June 1992.

 8             And if we could turn to the last page.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted, could you give us the tab number,

10     please.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  This is tab 6.

12        Q.   Mr. Drasko, if you could take a look at the signature.  Is that

13     the signature of Colonel Grubac?

14        A.   I think it is.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could look at page 2 of the B/C/S and page 3

16     of the English.  And we look at item number 5.

17        Q.   It states that Lieutenant-Colonel General Mladic and

18     Radovan Karadzic attended the SAO Herzegovina Assembly held in Bileca.

19             Mr. Drasko, do you recall that President Karadzic and

20     General Mladic were in Bileca in early July 1992?

21        A.   At the time, I was in Tasovcici, in trenches.  I wasn't informed

22     about this.  I wasn't working at the command at the time, only in my

23     unit.  In the Tasovcici area, where only me and my cousin were Serbs, all

24     the rest of them were Muslims, we didn't have too much contact with the

25     Herzegovina Corps, and we didn't get all that many information.  But I

Page 12269

 1     did hear -- because what people were saying was when Radovan coming to

 2     Bileca, then territories fall.  They were immediately afraid that the

 3     area of Herzegovina would fall into the their hands, after having heard

 4     that he has arrived.  They were saying, God, please don't have them come

 5     over.  Not even the fighters liked him coming over.  They believed he was

 6     selling things out.  The people found out about the agreement between him

 7     and Boban that was reached in Grac.  Momo Mandic also spoke about that.

 8     And the rumour went that some parts of Herzegovina would be handed over

 9     in exchange for Posavina.  People in that part of Herzegovina weren't

10     really pleased with this.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Drasko.  Let me remind you, please keep your

12     answers short and try to focus on my question.  There is a delay with the

13     translations, and so just because there is a delay --

14        A.   I apologise.

15        Q.   Just because there is a delay doesn't mean that I'm waiting for

16     you to finish your answer necessarily and to continue with it.  Please

17     keep your answers short.

18             Well, I think --

19             MR. OLMSTED:  May I tender this into evidence, Your Honours, this

20     document.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

22             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's take --

23             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  As Exhibit P1477, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And, for the record, it's not 3580 but 3080,

25     65 ter number.

Page 12270

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, you're right, Your Honour.  I apologise.

 2             Let's take a look at 65 ter 1460.  We can see this is a report

 3     from the Herzegovina Corps command dated 11 June 1992.  If we can turn to

 4     the last page of the document.

 5        Q.   And can you confirm for us again whether this is the signature of

 6     Colonel Grubac?

 7        A.   I believe so.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could now turn to page 2 of the B/C/S; page 5

 9     of the English.

10             We see here that it reports that a prisoner accommodation centre

11     was holding 244 people, including 16 women and several minors.

12             Where was this accommodation centre?

13        A.   The centre was located in an old building built by the Austrians,

14     next to the Mose Pijade Museum where the command was and where the office

15     were of Mr. Grubac.  I was -- I had my offices at the ground floor, and

16     that's where Commander Segrt was also located, and he was on the first

17     floor.  And in direction of Bileca, immediately next to us was this big

18     building where the prisoners were located.  These people were in terrible

19     conditions.  One could smell the sweat, the heavy stench of sweat.  It

20     was summertime, it was hot, they couldn't wash really often, and one

21     could smell them passing by the building.

22        Q.   And what was the ethnicity of these persons at this centre?

23        A.   I think that in the collection centre it was either Muslims or

24     Croats.  There were a few Serbs who were also there but because they were

25     considered to be deserters or traitors.  But there were very few of them.

Page 12271

 1     Mile Sakovski, for instance, was there.

 2        Q.   It states further --

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  And if we turn to page 3 of the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   It states --

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  And stay where we are for the English.

 6        Q.   It states:

 7             On 10 June, the organs of the Bileca SO and SUP carried out the

 8     illegal weapons seizure operation.  Several people were arrested on that

 9     occasion, of whom 41 were accommodated in the barracks.

10             Is that referring to the barracks next to the Mose Pijade Museum

11     or -- what we were just talking about?

12        A.   I heard that police kept their detainees somewhere else, that

13     they were not together with the other group.  They were guarded by a

14     different group of people.  And I know that police released these people,

15     let's them go to Montenegro, whether -- whereas the other group of

16     prisoners were then exchanged in Stolac.

17             I heard, while I was in Bileca, that there was an action or

18     operation involving Muslims, armed Muslims, who surrounded the Serbian

19     forces.  The Serbian forces gave them their weapons, and then they took

20     them to the town and put them into a prison.  And then, later on, they

21     were transported by buses to Montenegro.

22        Q.   Yes.  I want to focus on this particular document because it

23     mentions that these 41 persons were accommodated in the barracks and

24     mentions the barracks.  And I just want to clarify:  Would that be the

25     Mose Pijade barracks?

Page 12272

 1        A.   There was one barracks, Mose Pijade, but the police also had

 2     somewhere a prison of their own, I think.

 3        Q.   Now, you mentioned, I think, an incident that you observed.

 4             In June 1992, did you see a group of non-Serbs in the custody of

 5     the police in Bileca?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you describe what -- can you describe what you saw?

 8        A.   I've heard of that.  I don't know exactly where, but I do know

 9     that the people who were forced to take off their clothes were taken to a

10     barracks, most probably in Bileca, and that these people were later

11     transported by buses to Montenegro.  And they were held there for about a

12     month or a month and a half.  One of the girls who worked in the same

13     barracks with me, she had a boyfriend, and he -- she went with -- with

14     him to Montenegro, and I remember her bringing me chocolate later on and

15     telling me that he will be released.  And eventually these people arrived

16     in Montenegro and then found their accommodation there.

17        Q.   I want to clarify something for the record.  Did you actually

18     observe these non-Serbs who were in the custody of the police?  Did you

19     see it for yourself?

20        A.   I saw for myself when they were taken through town in a convoy.

21     They passed through the old part of town, next to the mosque, old mosque

22     that was far from the building of the -- where the command was located.

23     I was with my children when I saw them.  I don't know where, on what

24     premises were they accommodated.  I didn't manage to find that out.

25     Actually, I wasn't all that much interested in that because these people

Page 12273

 1     were not prisoners of the Herzegovina Corps but the prisoners of the

 2     police.

 3        Q.   You said something about their clothing.  What were they wearing

 4     when you saw them being escorted through the town?

 5        A.   They had only their underwear.  It was summertime, and they had

 6     only their underwear on.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1478, Your Honours.

10             MR. OLMSTED:

11        Q.   In early July, did you see any bus convoys for non-Serbs in

12     Bileca?

13        A.   Commander Segrt told me to go towards the lake in direction of

14     Niksica, outside of the garrison, and that I should go and see the buses

15     there.  He didn't explain what was I supposed to look at.  But he was

16     that kind of a person.  He would never say anything like that.

17     Specifically, he wanted, me to see for myself.  He would never

18     specifically tell me, Do such and such a thing, or make a categorical

19     order.

20             I think Captain Duka told me later that they had a fight.  I saw

21     some buses, but I didn't know where they were going, who these people.

22     He didn't tell me anything.  But I asked some people, and they told me

23     they were Muslims being taken away.  And then on my return, I told him

24     I've seen some buses, people being taken away.  And I asked him, So what

25     am I supposed to do?  And he said, Well, your job was to go and see what

Page 12274

 1     was going on, to determine the situation that.  That was his answer.  And

 2     then I realised that civilians were also being transported away from

 3     Bileca.

 4        Q.   And from what you could tell, who organised this convoy of buses?

 5        A.   I think it was organised by the authorities of Bileca and the

 6     police of the city.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's take a look at 65 ter 45.

 8        Q.   What we have in front of us is a letter from SJB Gacko to the

 9     Herzegovina Corps dated 29 July 1992.  You can see that the letter refers

10     to the Bileca prison.  Which detention facility is being referred to

11     there?

12        A.   Detention centre was located in Bileca.  Milan Soldo, who

13     previously had worked in the Mostar prisoner, was in charge of that

14     prison.  He was the main person who was in charge there.  They have --

15     didn't have enough food.  And then Gruban [phoen] insisted that these

16     people should be exchanged or released because we didn't have -- they

17     didn't have food for them.  And then Soldo made a list of the oldest

18     people there; they were released.  I was among those who were escorting

19     them.  They were taken to Stolac.  There was no exchange.  I didn't

20     really appreciate that because my wife was at the time in Dretelj prison.

21     She could have been exchanged, but Grubac decided not do that.  But, of

22     course, I was soldier, and I didn't complain.  I was really displeased.

23     I thought that they should allow people from Capljina also to get out,

24     the civilians.  But, in any case, people did get out.  And then later on

25     there was an exchange on the 28th of August when the others were

Page 12275

 1     released.

 2        Q.   I just want to clarify.  When it's referring in this letter to

 3     the Herzegovina Corps, to this Bileca prison, it's referring to someplace

 4     different than the Mose Pijade barracks.  Is that what you're saying?

 5        A.   It is all one facility in a fortress, immediately in front of the

 6     command building.  There is only a road between the two buildings.  And

 7     the other side were the premises where we would bring the prisons in for

 8     examination, and on the first floor it was a cafe.  And then further on

 9     there were accommodation with beds for us and the military police.

10     That's where I slept with my three children as well.

11        Q.   Now, it says here that it's talking about Muslims who were

12     detained at this facility.  Can you tell us, Were these Muslim

13     prisoners -- were they civilians or were they participating in the armed

14     conflict?

15        A.   From what I knew, all these people were my neighbours, so to

16     speak.  I was a judge in Capljina and Stolac, and all these people were

17     my neighbours who had been picked up by paramilitary formations before

18     the fall of Capljina.  For instance, Meho, a neighbour of mine who used

19     to drink coffee with me every day, he was there at the command.  Many

20     prominent people from Mostar was also brought there, people I had known

21     from before.  I tried to have a word with them, but I also wanted to

22     register them.  They were looking for someone to help them be released,

23     but then I -- we told them that the -- wait, there's going to be an

24     exchange, be patient.  And Soldo was in touch with the people.  These

25     people were -- also included farmers from Dubrave area.  And when -- when

Page 12276

 1     they were being released, one of them told me, Don't worry, Lazar, we'll

 2     make sure that your wife gets released as well.  Also, in Dubrave, there

 3     were people who used to fight together with us, on our side, with the

 4     Serbs, and yet they were also brought there.

 5        Q.   Just to clarify what you're telling us:  These Muslims detained

 6     at this location, they were not participating in the armed conflicts; is

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   They were not.  They even lived among the Serbs in Stolac,

 9     Domanovici, Capljina, Mostar, Pijesti [phoen], and so on and so forth.

10     And with the withdrawal of Serbs, some of them were taken along.  Some of

11     them were driven from there.  And also because Serbs wanted to have some

12     people to use as hostages who they can later on exchange.  Most probably

13     that was another reason.

14             I apologise, there were many prisoners, Serbs, Yugoslavs, who

15     were held in Capljina, Grabovina, Dretelj, and private prisons.  In

16     Dretelj, there were, at the time, 2- or 300 prisons.

17        Q.   So why were these non-Serbs detained at the prison?  Why were

18     they being held there?

19        A.   To be honest, I think only because they were Serbs -- or, rather,

20     because they were not Serbs.  I knew these people; none of them were

21     responsible for any sabotage activities or for having killed anyone.  On

22     several occasions, I sat together with Ekrem Codarevic in a hotel.

23     UNPROFOR was also present, and we analysed the situation.  And he told

24     me, Be careful, Lazar, Radovan sold you out; don't stay here too long.

25     Move to Bileca, outside of the borders of Banovina of Croatia, and that

Page 12277

 1     way you will survive.  And later on I found about the agreement, so I

 2     realised that it actually happened, that there was agreement.

 3        Q.   This letter is to the attention of Colonel Milosevic.  What role

 4     did Colonel Milosevic play in prisoner exchanges?

 5        A.   Milosevic simply believed the Croat side when -- in their claims

 6     that the camp of Dretelj does not exist, that the exchange would be of

 7     the all-for-all type.  He didn't like me saying that the Dretelj camp

 8     exists, that people are being tortured, women and so on.  He believed I

 9     was making lies and propaganda.  And at the time of the exchange, a

10     colleague told me --

11        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt.  You misunderstood my question, though.

12             I want to know what role Colonel Milosevic played in prisoner

13     exchanges, because this letter from SJB Gacko is addressed to him.  Was

14     he at all responsible for prisoner exchanges?

15        A.   He was exclusively in charge of the exchanges of prisoners.  He

16     was a very serious man, and I believed he would accomplish a lot.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1479, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Olmsted, before we let this document go,

21     could we just inquire with the witness.

22             Under whose command this prison in Bileca was?  Because I thought

23     I heard the witness say that it was run by the police; yet the request

24     for exchange seems to have been made to the Colonel from the army.

25             So who was responsible for running this camp; do you know?

Page 12278

 1             Or can we ask the witness about this.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prisoners who -- that were located

 3     in the corps command were prisoners of the army.  And military units were

 4     in charge of them, primarily Milosevic and Grubac from the security

 5     service.  They were making the plans for the release of these people;

 6     whereas the prisoners who were in town, they were under the police

 7     command, and it was the police who was making decisions about them.  They

 8     released those towards Montenegro; and the corps released their prisoners

 9     to Dubrave, Capljina, Ljuboski, and so forth.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Are you able to say how many were

11     detained in the civilian centre where the police was running it and how

12     many detainees were held by the army?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say precisely for the

14     police.  They're probably the numbers put forward by the Prosecutor.  And

15     as for the army, I believe that there were as many as 600 people kept by

16     the military in these buildings, because they were full.  Soldo told me

17     that Grubac had ordered a separation of all elderly people and that they

18     should all be released without an exchange at Stolac.  And that was done.

19     In cooperation with the Croatian authorities, they were let go to Stolac.

20     And the younger ones were kept until the last exchange on the 18th, 18th

21     of August; that was the day of the last exchange, and I was present

22     there.

23             It was interesting because they tricked Colonel Milosevic on that

24     occasion.  He was to -- he trusted them too much.  It should have been an

25     exchange all for all.  There were two trucks full of young recruits from

Page 12279

 1     the JNA who should have been exchanged.  When the civilians, especially

 2     HOS members, Kospic [phoen], Puntic [phoen], and others who I knew well,

 3     they were taken prisoner and they were HOS members from Dretelj.  When

 4     they crossed the border-line, the exchange was stopped, and the young

 5     recruits were taken back and they killed them all.  Only recently have

 6     their bodies -- were their bodies discovered in the surroundings of

 7     Vinodol.  At least 80 soldiers were killed there.  And if it had been a

 8     real exchange, if they had been careful enough, if Colonel Milosevic

 9     hadn't trusted the Croatian authorities as much, if he had been more

10     distrustful, these people would now be alive.

11             My wife was also released on that occasion; I was present.  I

12     pointed her out to Milosevic and said, She was also from Dretelj camp.

13     There were about 80 women and over 120 men there.  Do you trust me now?

14     But he didn't say a word.  And that was why he drove me out of the

15     garrison.  After that, he died soon.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

17             MR. OLMSTED:

18        Q.   And just to clarify further what Judge Harhoff asked you:  Where

19     the police held non-Serbs, was this in the same compound as the

20     Mose Pijade barracks, or was it off that site?

21        A.   It was in the barracks, in old buildings built by the Austrians,

22     about 50 metres from the command of the security; whereas Grubac had his

23     office on the upper floor.  I served my compulsory army service there

24     too, 1975.  I know every metre of the premises.

25        Q.   I want to move on to Visegrad now.

Page 12280

 1             Can you tell us, I think you mentioned that you arrived in

 2     Visegrad at the end of August; is that correct?

 3        A.   On 28th of August with my wife when she was released from the

 4     camp and three small children aged 4 through 11.  That's how we arrived

 5     at Visegrad.

 6        Q.   Before you arrived in Visegrad, do you recall hearing

 7     announcements over the radio coming from the Visegrad municipal

 8     authorities?

 9        A.   My in-laws said to me that they had heard that.  That they were

10     inviting people to come there, that there were vacant houses, that houses

11     would be distributed.  But I first decided to go to Trebinje to see

12     Dobroslav Cuk, the chief of the Red Cross, who is now president of

13     Trebinje municipality.  My wife brought a list of the remaining

14     prisoners.  She was a doctor, a microbiologist.  But that was mostly due

15     to the row I had with Ms. Hartman from the Red Cross delegation, and I

16     blamed her for these people remaining in the camp.  And in the end she

17     had made a list of the remaining people in the camp, and we inquired

18     whether there was a position of judge for me at Trebinje because I was

19     much more experienced than the judges there and if my wife could get a

20     job as a doctor there.  But they refused.  They were saying, No, there

21     are no jobs for you there.  And only then did we decide to go to

22     Visegrad.  I didn't come to Bileca on a white horse as a hero or a cadre

23     of theirs, but I came as a refugee, with a refugee ID.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Drasko.  But, please, please, focus on the

25     questions because we do have limited time with you, and we want to try to

Page 12281

 1     cover all the topics.  So just listen to the questions and just keep your

 2     answers focused on the questions.

 3        A.   I apologise to the Trial Chamber.  But these are things that

 4     really touched me deep down inside, the entire war and everything.

 5        Q.   And I think the Trial Chamber certainly appreciates that, and I

 6     apologise for trying to cut you off.  It's just because we have limited

 7     time.

 8             You mentioned that these announcements that your family heard

 9     over the radio were calling for people to come to Visegrad.  What

10     ethnicity were they trying to attract to Visegrad?  What ethnic group?

11        A.   Exclusively Serbs.  They were saying that Visegrad had been

12     ethnically cleansed of Bosniaks or Muslims they were called at the time

13     and that we could can get their houses.  So that many people from the

14     Neretva Valley went there.  But not only they; also people from Sarajevo,

15     or Zenica, or Travnik.  Over 20.000 people came to Visegrad from all

16     over.  And, of course, accommodation had to be found for all of them, and

17     they had to be fed.  It required organisation, and they were also drafted

18     into the army.  Many left for Serbia later.  They expected the fall of

19     Gorazde.  There were announcements to that effect.  The Serbs from

20     Gorazde were also expected to come to Visegrad.

21        Q.   By the time you arrived Visegrad at the end of August, 1992, how

22     many non-Serbs remained in Visegrad?

23        A.   Apart from mixed marriages who weren't bothered by anybody,

24     expect for some minor incidents, the remaining population was locked up

25     in the Uzamnica barracks which was held by the army.  There was a unit

Page 12282

 1     established to guard them and feed them.  They also had work obligation,

 2     but there was no other population in the town.

 3        Q.   What happened -- what happened to the houses that the non-Serbs

 4     had left behind?

 5        A.   Most of the houses were not set on fire because they were

 6     expected to be given to refugees as accommodation.  Then state-owned

 7     companies had distributed apartments.  They belonged to the companies.

 8     So the employees of Varda should go to the apartments owned by Varda,

 9     et cetera.  Refugees were only given houses.  Local population who had

10     relatives there and connections got apartments down-town on the other

11     side of the Drina, that is, the side towards Serbia.  Whereas we were

12     sent to the Crnca neighbourhood, as far as possible away from the -- from

13     down-town.  So that we refugees would be some sort of a buffer zone

14     between the town itself and the Muslims who sometimes made raids into the

15     town and came as close as a couple of hundred metres.

16        Q.   How were the non-Serb houses assigned to Serbs coming to

17     Visegrad?  Was there a commission set up, or how was this process

18     conducted?

19        A.   A commission was established, and they went from house to house.

20     And depending on the head count, they assigned housing.  They were

21     promising that the Muslims would never return so the house would -- could

22     be kept permanently by the people who moved in, but that was a common

23     story at the time in Bosnia and Herzegovina, although it was clear that a

24     house can only be assigned for temporary use.

25             So I got a house at Crnca, but I wasn't allowed to sleep there.

Page 12283

 1     I only slept with my father-in-law.  On the next day, when I returned

 2     home, I found the house robbed, without any furniture, even the firewood

 3     was gone.  And I -- I inquired who had done it.  And I -- they told me, A

 4     man Lakic did.  And I was angry, and I went about the neighbourhood to

 5     see whether I could find a stove somewhere that I could use.  And then I

 6     saw a couple of soldiers; I thought they were Serbs; and I asked, Do you

 7     know a guy Lakic?  He robbed me.  And he said, Yeah, Lakic would do that.

 8     But where are you from?  We're from Zenica.  But how do you know Lakic?

 9     Never mind, sir.  You come to our house, we'll give you furniture.  And

10     we transported a stove and some things to my house.

11             And only then did I understand that they were actually Bosniaks

12     who lived there.  They were killing some people, but they were obviously

13     in no mood to kill me and my brother-in-law, because they obviously

14     recognised us as refugees, like them, and we were up the creek like they

15     were.  And --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't understand the witness's last

17     sentence.  Sorry.

18             MR. OLMSTED:

19        Q.   Can you just repeat your last sentence.  And then we have to

20     break for the interpreters.

21        A.   He said that he had given me his stove.  That was his stove,

22     actually.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  And I apologise, I'm on the wrong schedule.  I

24     guess we're not ready for break.

25        Q.   Okay.  You've already mentioned that essentially by the time you

Page 12284

 1     arrived in Visegrad, the non-Serbs had left Visegrad.  But before

 2     arriving Visegrad, did you hear from anyone what had happened to the

 3     non-Serbs in that municipality?

 4        A.   While I was still in Bileca, I spoke to Kospic, an officer of the

 5     JNA; he was a Croat.  There was also Zajec [phoen], a Slovenian.  And I

 6     told them that I couldn't get a job in Bileca, although they needed

 7     military courts; but because of the relations between Grubac and -- or,

 8     rather, the attitude that Grubac and Milicic [phoen] had toward my family

 9     in Bilica, because he said to me, Why have you come to Bilica?  There is

10     no -- no place here.  That is what Papic said to me; he studied with me

11     in Sarajevo.  There's no work here.  And then I decided to go.  Pistols

12     were even drawn for the apartment of Seyad Djogevic [phoen].  And I said,

13     We'd better get out of the way and go elsewhere.  And relatives were

14     willing to put us up; it was a relative of my wife's -  he was a war

15     orphan from the Second World War, and he had come to Visegrad - who had

16     married another man by the name of Zurovac, and he was looking for an

17     apartment for me.  And when he saw that on the other bank it wasn't

18     possible, I looked for an apartment in town -- or, rather, down-town in

19     the vicinity of the prosecutor's office, an apartment of any kind.  And I

20     saw there was a house that was partly burnt in Pionirska Street, but the

21     facade was good.  Only one room had burned down.

22             But they were saying, No, this is not good enough for you.  Let's

23     go to another place.  And we found an older house which was damaged, but

24     it could be -- it could be renovated.  And I said, Why is this better?

25     This one is better because nobody was killed here.  You don't want to

Page 12285

 1     live in a house where people were killed and live among their ghosts and

 2     have people on your conscience.  And that's why --

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Sir, would be so good as to speak slowly because

 4     everything you said has to be interpreted by the interpreters, but they

 5     cannot follow you when you speak so fast.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Drasko, just keep an eye on me because I will indicate

 9     to you if you're going too fast or if you need to break for the

10     interpreters.

11             I want to break down what you just told us.

12             You had a conversation about a house that was burnt down on

13     Pionirska Street; is that correct?

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15        Q.   Could you repeat your answer?  I don't think it was heard.

16        A.   Yes.  That house was right across the street in Pionirska.  For a

17     long time nobody lived there.  Now I see it's been repaired.  And I found

18     a big dog there, a tornjak by the name of Lindo, and I took a puppy and

19     the puppy's now with me.

20        Q.   Just focus on my questions.

21             Who did you have this conversation about this house on

22     Pionirska Street with, and when did you have that conversation?

23        A.   When I was looking for apartments on the left bank, there were

24     problems everywhere with breaking and robbing.  Then I went to the right

25     bank, but then attacks on that bank started, attacks on Terpentin and on

Page 12286

 1     the graveyard, attacks by the Muslim forces.  And for the sake of safety,

 2     I decided to go to the other bank.  And I asked Momo to find something

 3     for me, and he found this.  And I said, I passed by the command, there's

 4     a good house; there's only -- slightly damaged by fire.  And he said, No,

 5     no, no; don't go there.  And never explained to me but I understood that

 6     somebody had come to harm there.  And he said, Take this house; it

 7     belonged to Mustafa Hasim.  Nobody was killed here.  His wife and he went

 8     to Denmark.  They are honest people, and you can live there.

 9        Q.   And this occurred -- was this early September 1992?

10        A.   Yes, that's when I was looking for an apartment.

11        Q.   And this individual you had this conversation with, was this a

12     relative of yours?

13        A.   Yes, he was a relative.  A relative of my wife's.

14        Q.   And did he mention to you that non-Serbs had been killed in a

15     fire in that house?

16        A.   No, he didn't.  This doesn't seem to be the house where there was

17     a fire, but it had burnt.  And somebody may have burned in the house.  He

18     never mentioned any details.  But he wanted to save my soul.  And he told

19     me where I could live normally.

20        Q.   Now --

21        A.   Unburdened by the souls of the deceased.  I do have religious

22     beliefs, and I became more religious in the war.  And because of

23     everything that happened to me, I think that gold is bad, that you

24     mustn't take what belongs to another, and if you go to somebody's house

25     you must be grateful and try to do as little damage as possible.

Page 12287

 1        Q.   Now, before --

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, just to confirm:  Are you all right,

 3     and are you -- can you go on for another couple of minutes before we have

 4     the break, or do you need to take the break now?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.  I can go

 6     on.  No problems.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:

 9        Q.   Before you left for Visegrad, while you were still in Bileca, did

10     you have any conversations with military officials about crimes that were

11     occurring in Visegrad against the non-Serb population?

12        A.   Well, here's what they said to me, especially Josip:  Lazar, I

13     don't recommend that you go there; crimes were committed there.  The

14     Bosniaks were cleansed away.  And I said, Where should I go?  I'm from

15     the Neretva valley and here there are thousands of problems.  Where

16     should I go?  Tell me.  What should I do?  And they're calling me to come

17     there, and they say they may employ me as a judge and that I wouldn't be

18     a soldier anymore so I would get rid of that.  My wife seems to be --

19     able to find a job at the medical centre.  My kids can go to school.  And

20     that sounds like a normal life.  And I didn't know about Visegrad, where

21     it was, and nor did I know about its history expect from the works of

22     Ivo Andric.  I knew only what I had read in the book, and I had an

23     idealised image of Visegrad because that was mandatory reading in

24     secondary school, Ivo Andric.  And only once before had I passed through

25     Visegrad.

Page 12288

 1        Q.   You mentioned that you were warned about going to Visegrad.  Did

 2     you hear about the kinds of crimes that were committed against the

 3     non-Serb population in the months before you had arrived there, what kind

 4     of crimes were committed?

 5        A.   No, I didn't.  I only heard the warnings from the two JNA

 6     officers, but they didn't know any details either.

 7        Q.   Were any armed Serb volunteer groups operating in Visegrad

 8     between September through December 1992?

 9        A.   They had various names.  The corps was strong -- or, rather, not

10     the corps but the Visegrad Brigade.  And it wanted to grow stronger.  And

11     they wanted to diminish the reputation of those groups.  They wanted

12     cooperation with the Municipal Assembly and the authorities and to

13     prevent lawlessness, especially on the part of those groups.  But they

14     were -- there were groups coming in all the time.  Some were called

15     locusts.  Somebody said that they are some gypsies from Belgrade.  Sorry,

16     I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but that's what they were

17     called.  I know that they roamed the area, but they left very fast, in

18     ten or 15 days.

19             Another group was called Garavi, but they were locals.  They were

20     called that because they were smear their faces black before going into

21     action.  I know that the -- that Seselj's Men had been released from

22     prison.  They were called Seselj's Men; they were locked up for various

23     criminal offences, and they were sent to Bosnia to make havoc there.

24     They didn't even fight; they only stole and raped.  I even had a criminal

25     report because they had raped a girl.

Page 12289

 1             I didn't know which other units there were.  There were also the

 2     Russians.  A guy had brought a unit that had been in Afghanistan.  They

 3     only wanted to fight Muslims.  They said they wouldn't fight Croats.

 4     They prayed to God, some of them drank a bit.  There was a Cossack who

 5     was killed.  There was a doctor who got killed.  Valery Pikov [phoen] was

 6     an engineer, and he had reserves about Russian soldiers and volunteers.

 7     He had an apartment in the state of Russia.  He was a civilised man.  But

 8     very few of them stayed behind -- stayed.  They mostly went away fast.

 9        Q.   Were the White Eagles also present in Visegrad when you were

10     there?

11        A.   There was rumour about the White Eagles, but I haven't seen

12     anyone -- or, rather, I saw some people, but I don't know whether any one

13     of them was a White Eagle.  Because the command was growing stronger, the

14     prosecutor's office was getting off the ground, proceedings were taken

15     against murders, so they didn't have much manoeuvring space, and they

16     were leaving, as the official authorities were getting stronger.  So I

17     never even felt the presence of the White Eagles.  I never met them.  And

18     I had exclusive ties with the command, and I know that they had the best

19     of intentions to introduce law and order into the city.

20        Q.   Now --

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Olmsted, it's 3.40, so I think this is the time

22     for the break.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  If -- can I just ask one question?

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  And then we're done with this topic.

Page 12290

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:

 3        Q.   You mentioned that some of these members of these Serb volunteer

 4     groups were former convicts; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, they were released from prison.  And they had also come to

 6     the Neretva valley, the same people who were released from prison, to

 7     help us once the JNA had withdrawn.  And I know back there, on the

 8     Neretva, one of these Chetnik commanders pointed his pistol at my head

 9     and he said, I understand that you're a reserve officer, Lazar.  Take my

10     ten soldiers, but if anyone gets killed, I will kill you.

11             He was a well-known person, but I don't know want to go into that

12     now.  He was a personality from political life.  And I put away his

13     pistol and said, Don't point your pistol at me.  Whoever isn't willing to

14     get killed here can leave right away.  Whereas we, who have our homes

15     here, are willing to die here.  And we were going to die, but we were

16     tricked.  But that group left very soon.

17        Q.   Okay --

18        A.   And we weren't happy with their presence.

19        Q.   So we have to take our break now, so, thank you.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, could I just remind Your Honours,

21     that, if possible, could we have a decision after the next break because

22     we need to make arrangements if the witness is to come on Monday -- I'm

23     sorry, after this break.

24             JUDGE HALL:  We resume in 20 minutes.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 12291

 1                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  We haven't forgotten the urgings of the OTP as

 4     regards the decision on the motion referred to.  It is not -- we are not

 5     yet ready; but in the course of today, certainly, we will give our

 6     decision.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             MR. OLMSTED:

 9        Q.   Mr. Drasko, I want to move to another topic.

10             Can you tell us, Who was the Visegrad basic prosecutor before

11     you?

12        A.   Mr. Sahim Muhic.

13        Q.   And what was his ethnicity?

14        A.   He was a Muslim.  Now he's a Bosniak.

15        Q.   And what happened to him?

16        A.   I think he left earlier.  He left Visegrad earlier.  I have all

17     his documentation.  Among other things, his award.  He came after the war

18     with his son.  And when his son got this award, he said, Well, I can see

19     now that my father was a commie, and started laughing.  In other words,

20     he was a member of the League of Communists and had an award for that.

21     We kept it for him.

22        Q.   So between when Mr. Muhic left Visegrad and when you began

23     performing the basic prosecutor work in September of 1992, who was acting

24     as basic prosecutor during that time-period?

25        A.   The position was vacated at the time, the premises were empty.

Page 12292

 1     Yes, they registered a few cases, but there was no prosecutor there to

 2     process them.  And then I was invited to work as a prosecutor.  They told

 3     me I should start working even before I got elected because there were

 4     some urgent cases, especially cases involving murder.

 5        Q.   From September 1992, for the rest of that year, was there ever a

 6     time when you were unable, as a prosecutor, to receive criminal reports

 7     from the police?

 8        A.   Whatever I received, I had registered.  It -- all the criminal

 9     reports we received are part of our file of the prosecutor office.  Of

10     course, it's the police who chooses what to report and what not.  I could

11     not influence them because I was part of the military at the time.  I was

12     not at the prosecutor's office all the time, and I could not control what

13     was being taken into the register.

14        Q.   When you arrived Visegrad at the end of August, was there already

15     a basic court established in the municipality?

16        A.   Yes.  Basic court existed.  The president of the court was

17     Ms. Milanka Tanaskovic.  The judge was another person from Visegrad, a

18     woman who wanted to become prosecutor.  And upon my arrival, when I

19     started writing my requests, this women, Rada Bogdanovic, wrote in that

20     my intention was to become a judge because she wanted to be the

21     prosecutor.  She added, Well, he can be both prosecutor and a judge.

22     But, in the end, I was appointed the prosecutor and she remained a judge.

23             I took this as some kind of humiliation for us refugees.  You're

24     supposed to just sit down and be quiet with your colleagues playing games

25     with you, like she wouldn't know what's the difference between a judge

Page 12293

 1     and a prosecutor and why would one be one or the other.

 2        Q.   These two judges, what were their ethnicities?

 3        A.   All of them were Serbs.

 4        Q.   As basic prosecutor, did you become familiar with the members of

 5     the police force in Visegrad?

 6        A.   Yes.  There was a police station there, a police station

 7     organised.  It had a commander, a commissaire.  And Josipovic was --

 8     Milan Josipovic was the police commissary.  Then they had chiefs of crime

 9     investigation department and all the other departments.  And they also

10     had the reserve force.  They were under their control.

11        Q.   Who was Risto Perisic?

12        A.   Risto Perisic was a teacher.  He taught literature.  And in the

13     wartime period he was appointed as the chief of police.  But he was a

14     teacher of Croatian, by profession.

15        Q.   And what was his ethnicity?

16        A.   A Serb.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's take a look at 65 ter 2812.

18        Q.   What we're looking at is the SJB Visegrad salary payment list of

19     employees in October 1992.

20             Mr. Drasko, can you confirm whether this is a list of active SJB

21     Visegrad employees around the time that you were in Visegrad, in 1992?

22        A.   Yes, I'm certain about that.

23        Q.   If we look at number 13, we see the name Sredoje Lukic.  And

24     there's a remark near his name, that he was --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12294

 1        Q.   -- that he was suspended on 19 August 1992.

 2             Do you know the reasons for his suspension?

 3        A.   Based on the documentation I read, I know that he released from

 4     prison a certain Svjetlana Pavlovic.  I didn't know -- I didn't know, at

 5     least at the time, who that person was.  That this was done without any

 6     authorisation.  Also, he failed to appear at his work, especially when

 7     then there was something to be done.  And after the procedure was carried

 8     through, he was suspended from the police.  That's what I saw in the

 9     documents.  And we can also see that Milutin Cedo is mentioned here; he

10     committed suicide.  He blew himself up using a hand-grenade after a

11     quarrel with his wife.  Milan Josipovic also got killed later on.  He was

12     killed in his shop.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  May this document be tendered into evidence.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1480, Your Honours.

16        Q.   You mentioned that there was a reserve police force in Visegrad.

17     Can you tell us approximately how many reserve police officers there were

18     in September of 1992?

19        A.   I believe that approximately they had -- they were of equal

20     numbers as the regular police, because the area they covered was rather

21     large, and they participated in the fighting as well.

22        Q.   By the time you arrived Visegrad at the end of August 1992, were

23     there any non-Serb members of the police in Visegrad?

24        A.   No, all of them were Serbs.

25        Q.   From September 1992 through the end of the year, did you attend

Page 12295

 1     any meetings with the police leadership in Visegrad?

 2        A.   Yes.  I made avail of the opportunity that as the coordinator of

 3     the work of state authorities I could organise meetings with judges,

 4     police, military administration.  We did -- held a few meetings where we

 5     analysed our work and discussed ways of improving it.  I remember well

 6     that, in a way, I complained to some leaders about civilians being

 7     physically abused and beaten instead of treated differently, because such

 8     cases existed.  We mentioned cases of two people who one got mad and the

 9     other one committed suicide.  And then another man who was beaten by the

10     police jumped out of the window, killing himself.  Because these people

11     were afraid and because of this fear, something happened to their

12     personality.  They got deranged.  And using these examples, I used them

13     to explain that people must not be beaten.  And then Josipovic said, No,

14     No, only we can beat.  And another man said, No, one must stick to the

15     law.

16             They were rather strict.  I didn't bring my car over from

17     Capljina, and I couldn't have registered it in Visegrad.  I wasn't

18     allowed to do that with my car.  Only when I got back to Capljina I

19     managed to do that.  And, on the other hand, policemen who had forged

20     their diplomas would sit into their cars and take me to Ruda.  This

21     person's name was Rakil [phoen], and it turned out later that he has

22     provided a counterfeit diploma, and he worked as a policeman using that.

23     And me, as a judge and a prosecutor, I couldn't explain to anyone that I

24     have a driving licence for ten years or more.  Even my complaints sent to

25     higher authorities didn't help.

Page 12296

 1             I was certainly not privileged.  I was all the time in conflicts

 2     with them, especially with this man Perisic.

 3        Q.   And that's why I want to address your attention to -- did you

 4     attend meetings at which the -- the SJB chief Perisic was present in

 5     1992?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And at those meetings, did you raise these issues of -- of police

 8     misconduct with the chief?

 9        A.   I did not discuss that with them specifically because that's part

10     of their authority.  But we did discuss the training of police according

11     to the European Conventions.  I gave such proposals to the command and

12     also to -- in relation to the reserve police force and also stressed that

13     they should abide by the legality of the police work.

14             And, on one occasion, I confronted them because there was a

15     refugee who was accused of having stolen some tools, and it turned out

16     that it was something he brought from Zenica.  The judge in the -- in his

17     judgement said that the tools should be returned to him, although the man

18     was indicted for theft.  And then there was -- there were accusations

19     against us made at the Assembly meeting, but we received support by the

20     Assembly saying, No, you police do your work and let the prosecutors do

21     their work.  But we did have problems with him and his friends Savic and

22     Mota Mjilkovic [phoen] precisely because of this case.

23        Q.   I want to break this down a little bit.  You mentioned that

24     police were mistreating persons, they were beating them.  What other

25     crimes were the police engaged in, in 1992?  Were they engaged in any

Page 12297

 1     property crimes, theft, looting?

 2        A.   I know that there were lootings of property.  It was observed on

 3     occasions that police officers were involved or present.  People

 4     complained to me in town.  On one occasion, a policeman stopped a

 5     religious official's secretary in a hotel in Visegrad and took 600 marks

 6     from him, beat him up with a gun, and took even some petrol from his car,

 7     and sent him to Sarajevo; but the man, instead of going to Sarajevo, came

 8     to me, and then I made a criminal report and processed the case.  But the

 9     man died in the meantime.

10             He remained in the Federation, namely; and the investigative

11     judge from Visegrad was trying to locate him in Visegrad or somewhere in

12     Republika Srpska.  So in the end, this case was never really processed.

13     Again, Novo Rajak had a fist fight with some policemen and then policemen

14     took guns and started shooting him, and then a third man died, brother of

15     Stanko Pecikoza, who was, himself, murdered before then.

16        Q.   Let me stop you there before you go too long.  These beatings by

17     police officers and these other -- these thefts by police officers, did

18     you bring these crimes to the attention of the SJB chief?

19        A.   I wrote a letter, yes.  I told him plainly, If you don't know

20     much about law, you should know about literature.  And then I quoted

21     Njegos, a poet, who is saying that if the law is in the stick, then --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters apologise, but we cannot do

23     riming.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I sent this letter to him, and I

25     wrote it in this literary style because he wasn't a lawyer and I knew he

Page 12298

 1     wouldn't understand the legal writing.  But what could I do?  I realised

 2     that he has no appreciation for the law.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:

 4        Q.   And when you wrote to Chief Perisic about these police crimes,

 5     how did he respond?  What was his response to you?

 6        A.   He was phlegmatic.  He normally wouldn't react strongly.  He

 7     would allow things, he was tolerant.  He wasn't attacking peoples.  And

 8     later on, when Republika Srpska MUP decided to have him dismissed, I know

 9     that the chief from Foca, Mr. Mandic, wrote that the man had created

10     Visegrad -- made Visegrad into a crime location and they wanted to

11     dismiss the man.  They did dismiss him in the end.  But although I was in

12     conflict with him, the municipal authorities asked me to go talk to

13     Karadzic and to ask Karadzic for Perisic to be brought back, although the

14     man was harassing me and took my car.  But I went.  And we came to

15     Radovan Karadzic's office on the day when the Dayton Agreement was

16     signed.  His secretaries told me, He cannot receive you.  But then

17     Pecikoza came, who was the director of Terpentin, he came -- I can tell

18     you in brief what this is all about.  We want Risto back.  And then he

19     said, Go there.  And I said, It should be done.

20             So in the end nothing came out of the meeting.  The man was not

21     brought back to his position.  Instead, he was really dismissed.

22        Q.   Just to clarify.  Chief Perisic was he dismissed in 1992 or

23     sometime after that?

24        A.   It was later, in a later period.  At the time of the signing of

25     the Dayton Agreement.  I think, maybe if you can remind me, I think it

Page 12299

 1     may have been on the 29th of December, 2000 -- no, 1995.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... that's fine.  That's close

 3     enough.

 4             When you informed Chief Perisic about these police crimes, did he

 5     acknowledge that his police were committing crimes?  Did he admit that,

 6     yes, they are committing crimes?

 7        A.   No, he didn't criticise much, and people around him were rather

 8     gay.  They used to call him Tito, and I asked why.  And explained, Well,

 9     Tito used to steal but would give to us as well.  And this is the same

10     with Risto.  So was giving crumbs to the police so that he tolerated

11     them, they tolerated him, and then they protected him as well.

12        Q.   What were the police doing to investigate and report crimes

13     against non-Serbs in 1992?

14        A.   They weren't reporting crimes, especially those against

15     non-Serbs.  I never received one single criminal report.  And, of course,

16     that's -- you cannot find them in our files, with the exception of minor

17     cattle thefts where farmers would be accused.

18             There was one scandal where chiefs of municipalities forged

19     documents for cars, for instance, Fazlagic Ermin [phoen] comes to

20     Visegrad, a Muslim, and in the middle of the war, a Muslim comes to

21     Visegrad to sell a car.  This was obviously a forgery.  Srecko Ninkovic

22     was, at the time, chief of the crime department in Rudo, and I received a

23     few criminal reports from him against prominent people and policemen as

24     well.  However, this document reached first Milan Josipovic who was

25     supposed to bring them into me, but along the way he showed them to Risto

Page 12300

 1     and they simply removed them, they didn't pass them on to the

 2     prosecutor's office.  I didn't know about them.  They didn't reach the

 3     files.  And when Srecko Ninkovic checked and saw that they weren't in our

 4     files, he brought another set of the same criminal reports and only then

 5     the proceedings started.

 6        Q.   You mentioned Milan Josipovic.  What position did he hold with

 7     the police in 1992?

 8        A.   He was a police commander, "komandir."

 9        Q.   Now, did you ever raise the issue of this failure to investigate

10     crimes against non-Serbs with your superiors, with the higher prosecutor

11     or the republican prosecutor, in 1992?

12        A.   I can freely say that I asked for them to come to meetings in

13     Visegrad on several occasions, but they never showed up.  Military showed

14     up and police, but these didn't come.  And then later on with the war

15     crime commission, me, Simic, and Kostic, when we were supposed to go to

16     Bileca to hand over the documentation I had collected about Dretelj camp

17     and the events there, which remained in Bileca, they sent me back from

18     Pale, Mr. Kladanac and Mr. Staka, telling me, You should deal with thefts

19     in Visegrad; we don't want to know about war crimes; this is a private

20     affair of yours, obviously.

21             It seemed they were criticising.  Apparently it was because my

22     wife was in a camp that's the only reason why I wanted to do something

23     about it.  So I realised then that nobody's interested in prosecuting war

24     crimes and that the principle of state - it's me - is what applied in our

25     country, and that authorities are not willing to abide by the law.

Page 12301

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's take a look at 65 ter 3419.34.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask to you mark a couple of things on this

 3     photograph.

 4             Mr. Drasko, you already have in your hand the pen.  Can you tell

 5     us -- we're looking at an aerial photograph.  Can you tell us what we're

 6     looking at right now?

 7        A.   This is a photograph of Visegrad.

 8        Q.   Can you mark with a number 1 on the screen where the SJB building

 9     was located in 1992?

10        A.   It was across this bridge.  This was the building of UPI and this

11     was the police building and here is the building of the recruitment

12     office, the military recruitment office.  And this is UPI.

13        Q.   Let me stop you there.  Can you mark with a number 1, with a

14     numeral 1, on top of the SJB building?

15        A.   1, SJB.  This is 2, military recruitment office.  And this is

16     UPI.

17        Q.   Can you mark with a --

18        A.   This is the bridge.  And if you go left, will you come to the

19     court and other administrative buildings.  And then, across the bridge,

20     if you cross here, there was Borac.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Drasko, please just

22     wait.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Because have you to understand that this is a transcript and

25     therefore you -- what you're commenting on now will not show up in the

Page 12302

 1     transcript.  So please wait until I ask you a question.

 2             Can you mark with a --

 3        A.   [No interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you mark with a -- I guess we're on number 5.  Can you mark

 5     with number 5 where the prosecutor's office and the court's office was

 6     located?

 7        A.   It's this office, 5.  This is 5.  This is the building where the

 8     court was and the prosecutor's office.  And 6 is the municipal building.

 9     They were one next to the other.

10        Q.   You will see directly across the river from the SJB building

11     there is a mosque.  Can you see that?

12        A.   The mosque should be here on this corner, but it's demolished.

13     You can see that it's demolished.  And this is the demolished building.

14     This is where the mosque was.

15        Q.   That mosque across the river, was it destroyed by the time you

16     arrived in Visegrad in 1992?

17        A.   It was totally destroyed.  There was just some rubble left.  I

18     was fishing here.  And here, right across the river, was the Mula Hasic

19     house where I lived.

20        Q.   All right.  You don't have to mark anymore on the map -- on the

21     photograph.  So you --

22        A.   [No interpretation]

23        Q.   Okay.  Did you receive any criminal reports or investigation

24     reports regarding the destruction of that mosque from the police?

25        A.   No.  Neither for one mosque nor the other.  I never received any

Page 12303

 1     reports concerning them.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be tendered into evidence.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1481, Your Honours.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:

 6        Q.   Mr. Drasko, you can sit down, if you prefer.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could have on the -- on the screen,

 9     65 ter 1550.

10        Q.   And while we're calling that up, Mr. Drasko, when the police, or

11     anyone for that matter, brought to the prosecutor a criminal report,

12     where was it recorded?  Which log-books?

13        A.   There were log-books.  The main log-book was the KT log-book in

14     which reports against known adult perpetrators of crimes were entered.

15     In these log-books, they were ordered by the name or -- of the

16     perpetrator.  Whereas, in court, the court log-books, the main element is

17     the number.

18             Then there were also log-books with reports against minor

19     offenders, perpetrators of criminal offences who were minors.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and was there also --

21        A.   And there are log-books for -- concerning events where on-site

22     investigations are carried out and so on but the crime itself is not

23     yesterday clear.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, the

25     witness should be instructed to speak slowly because half of his answer

Page 12304

 1     was not recorded.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  And your -- Mr. Zecevic, your -- what you said was

 3     also not recorded.  Are you saying that he -- we missed something from

 4     his answer?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, yes.  Part of his -- of witness's answer

 6     was not recorded because the witness was talking relatively fast.  I'm

 7     sure the interpreters were unable to catch everything.  Because he was

 8     listing basically the names of the log-books that were kept in the office

 9     of the prosecutor at the time.

10             So if that is important - and I think it is - maybe you should

11     re-address the issue.

12             MR. OLMSTED:

13        Q.   Yes.  Let me take you through it, just to save some time.

14             You mentioned there was KT log-book and that was for known adult

15     perpetrators; is that correct?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   And there was also a KTN log-book and that was for unknown

18     perpetrators; is that correct?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   And then I believe you also mentioned there was a KTM log-book

21     and that was for minors?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If you could look at the screen, we see a KT log-book.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  Perhaps we could enlarge the B/C/S version a little

25     bit.

Page 12305

 1        Q.   Can you confirm, is this the 1992 through 1994 Visegrad

 2     Prosecutor's Office KT log-book?

 3        A.   Yes.  Well, that -- they bound it this way.  Now, it didn't look

 4     like this formerly.  And I can see that now it says, "Republika Srpska

 5     District Prosecutor's Office in Eastern Sarajevo;" whereas we were

 6     called, "Basic Prosecutor's Offices Visegrad."  And -- but prosecutor's

 7     offices were restructured.  So we are now only one department of the

 8     Cantonal Prosecutor's Office -- or, rather, the eastern office in the

 9     Republika Srpska.  So basic Prosecutor's offices are no longer in

10     existence in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  If we can turn to page 8 of the B/C/S, page 2 of

13     the English translation.  And if we can scroll down a little bit in the

14     B/C/S.

15        Q.   Mr. Drasko, according to this KT log-book, how many criminal

16     reports were provided to your office in 1992?

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Maybe we can zoom --

18        A.   In 1992, I think there were only five.

19        Q.   Right.  And I think we're looking at them.  They're entries

20     number 23, 24, 25, 26, and 27.

21             Is that right?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   And if we look at the first one, entry number 23, which you

24     received from, according to this log-book, the SJB Visegrad on the

25     9th of September, 1992, can you tell us --

Page 12306

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  And perhaps we can zoom in a little bit on that

 2     entry.

 3        Q.   -- what was the crime charged?

 4        A.   It's the criminal offence of endangering the safety of persons.

 5     It is a less serious criminal offence, where summary proceedings are

 6     possible.  And I see that such proceedings, indeed, were launched.

 7        Q.   And can you tell us, What was -- were what the ethnicities of the

 8     perpetrator and the victim of that crime?

 9        A.   They were Serbs, all of them.

10        Q.   And if we look at the second entry, which is number 24, which was

11     received from the SJB Visegrad also on the 9th of September, 1992, can

12     you tell us what was the crime involved in that case?

13        A.   It's the criminal offence of murder.  Krsto Baranac killed his

14     relative.  They were together in the yard; they had been drinking; and he

15     noticed at a point in time that the neighbour's cow was coming to his

16     yard.  And he started yelling, Why are you -- why do you leave your cow

17     roaming about?  And then he took a log and started beating his neighbour.

18     That neighbour didn't have children.  And he beat him up badly with that

19     log which he took from the firewood.

20        Q.   And that's all right.  Unfortunately, due to time, let's not go

21     through the facts of the case.  I'm just going to ask some very small

22     questions regarding each one.

23             Can you tell us, What were the ethnicities of the perpetrator and

24     the victim?

25        A.   They were all Serbs from the same village, Zrnica.

Page 12307

 1        Q.   Let's look at the third entry, entry number 25, which you

 2     received from SJB Visegrad on 2 December 1992.  And can you tell us, What

 3     was the crime in that case and the ethnicity of the victim and

 4     perpetrator?

 5        A.   Gogic and the injured party Marinko were also neighbours.  And

 6     there was a quarrel between them.  Marinko was a rash plan.  Stanimir

 7     asked him to return the money that his children had taken from him, and

 8     he took a rifle and started chasing him.  Later he took a knife, too, and

 9     they reached a neighbouring house where there was a rifle in front of the

10     house.  And he took that rifle and killed him.

11             So this was qualified as a manslaughter because he -- it wasn't

12     premeditated.  And he was also sentenced to a prison sentence.  I believe

13     that the -- that the decision came into force too, that there was no

14     appeal.

15        Q.   And what was the ethnicity of the perpetrator and the victim?

16        A.   They were both Serbs.

17        Q.   The fourth and fifth criminal reports that are recorded in this

18     log-book, entries 26 and 27, they appear to be filed by private citizens.

19     Is that the case?

20        A.   Yes.  Obred Simsic shot at the window of his neighbour

21     Rosa Simsic because of a quarrel about some land, and she was wounded as

22     a consequence of that.  It was qualified as attempted murder because he

23     was aiming at her head, and that's how it was treated.

24        Q.   Both these cases, were they -- were the perpetrators Serbs and

25     the victims Serbs?

Page 12308

 1        A.   Yes.  They were neighbours, Serbs, and this was mostly about

 2     property left behind by Muslims.

 3        Q.   And just to clarify, entry 27 as well, that was a crime committed

 4     by a Serb against a -- a Serb?

 5        A.   In this case, too, Milivoje Droca from Gorazde and Perosi Jakovic

 6     from Visegrad, they knew each other well.  They were on guard duty in the

 7     war, and at a point in time Droca went to the wood because he was taken

 8     short, and Pero didn't notice him; he mistook him for an enemy soldier,

 9     shot and killed him.

10        Q.   You had a chance to look at the 1992 entries as well as the 1993

11     and 1994 entries in this log-book.  Were you able to identify any

12     criminal reports of crimes committed by Serb perpetrators against

13     non-Serb victims in 1992?

14        A.   No.  I reviewed all the log-books and I couldn't find a single

15     case of this type.

16        Q.   And that's consistent with your recollection?

17        A.   Yes.  There were no reports in that period.  But I checked again

18     now to find whether such a report may have been filed any way.

19        Q.   Let's look at -- I just want to take a quick look at the 1993

20     entry.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  If we can turn to page 10 in the B/C/S and

22     page 4 in English, and I want to look at entry number 4.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the beginning.

24             MR. OLMSTED:

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... yes --

Page 12309

 1        A.   The persons entered --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. --

 3        A.   -- for war crimes committed in the area around Visegrad.  There

 4     are a number of them.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... yes, you --

 6        A.   Quite a number.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... yes, you -- I think you

 8     anticipated my question, but let me ask it.

 9             I want to look just right now at entry number 4.  And we see that

10     the criminal report charged the perpetrators with a crime under

11     Article 142 of the SFRY Criminal Code and that the crime was committed on

12     the 21st of July, 1992.

13             Are you telling us that that was a war crime charge?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And -- according to this log-book, who submitted the criminal

16     reports?  If we can look at the column 4.

17        A.   Criminal reports were submitted by the military police and by the

18     civilian police, too.  Here, for example, the Visegrad SJB submitted a

19     criminal report, as you can see here, to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

20     because they considered them to have jurisdiction.  But the corps

21     returned such reports so that they are registered at the prosecutor's

22     office in Visegrad.

23             You can see here the Army of Republika Srpska, the command of the

24     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, entered as the -- those who submitted the

25     report, but they only returned it, because, actually, the reports had to

Page 12310

 1     be submitted to the SJB of Visegrad.  Sometimes they were drafted by the

 2     command of the Visegrad Brigade, the reports.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you this:  What is the ethnicity of the perpetrators

 4     of this war crime?

 5        A.   The perpetrators of this war crime were Bosniaks who were then

 6     considered -- who are called Muslims.

 7        Q.   We're not going to look through the following pages in this

 8     log-book, but would you agree there are several more criminal reports of

 9     war crimes committed by Muslims, submitted by the SJB Visegrad, that are

10     recorded in this book?

11        A.   Yes.  I reckoned that they were from the area of Rudo and

12     eastern Sarajevo, Serbian Sarajevo, actually, Kopaci, and then some other

13     places:  Cajnice Rudo certainly belongs there, and so on.  They all,

14     together, submitted about 170 criminal reports.  It's all registered.

15     But next to these entries there are the criminal reports themselves --

16     or, rather, apart from them.  They were submitted to the prosecutor's

17     office -- district prosecutor's office at Pale which started functioning

18     and which had jurisdiction for dealing with these reports in accordance

19     with the rules of the ICTY, and forward them for assessment.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

21        A.   But what happened in 2001, when I went to Trebinje and collected

22     all these reports and submitted them to the prosecutor's office in

23     eastern Sarajevo, then Rajko Bojat bolstered that there was nothing, and

24     he rejected all these criminal reports, and none of them were really

25     dealt with.  So whatever was entered here wasn't followed up on.  And who

Page 12311

 1     knows whether anybody will actually take -- take this up and put -- push

 2     it through.  There's also the association of former camp inmates who --

 3        Q.   It's all right.  Yes, I'm sorry for interrupting you, but we need

 4     to focus on 1992.  I think you've answered the question that I asked.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be tendered into evidence.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1481, Your Honours.

 8             I apologise.  It's -- the number is P1482.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have on the screen 65 ter 2971.

10        Q.   We see that we have in front of us a KTN log-book.  Can you

11     confirm this is the KTN log-book for the basic prosecutor's office in

12     Visegrad?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could turn to page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2

15     of the English.  And if we can zoom in on the B/C/S a bit so he can see

16     it.

17        Q.   Mr. Drasko, are these the entries in the 1992 KTN log-book?

18        A.   Yes.  I reviewed it and saw that they were.

19        Q.   According to this log-book, how many unknown perpetrator criminal

20     reports were received after you arrived at the prosecutor's office?

21        A.   I believe that the information entered here is correct.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  We couldn't hear the witness's last sentence

23     because he didn't speak into the microphone.

24             MR. OLMSTED:

25        Q.   Sir, could you repeat your --

Page 12312

 1        A.   I -- the information is certainly correct.  I checked it.  What's

 2     entered here is correct.  However, I cannot turn pages here.

 3        Q.   That's fine.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  If we can expand out a little bit on the B/C/S

 5     version and re-focus it.

 6        Q.   If I read this correctly, the first three entries were -- predate

 7     the conflict; they're from February and March 1992.  And it's only the

 8     fourth entry that was while you were a prosecutor in 1992; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   I don't understand the question.

11        Q.   Let me ask it again.

12             If I'm reading this log-book correctly, the first three entries,

13     entries 1, 2, and 3, were from before the conflict, and it's

14     entry number 4 that was entered while you were prosecutor?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And this number 4 entry, can you tell us, What is the charged

17     crime?

18        A.   Yes.  It says Snjezana Markovic, Article 143.

19        Q.   Is that a war crime?

20        A.   No.  I don't think it's Markovic, Snjezana.

21        Q.   The victim.  Is the victim -- what ethnicity is the victim?

22        A.   We can see that -- her ethnicity Serbian.  She is a Serbian

23     woman.

24        Q.   And we can see she was charged under Article 143 of the SFRY; is

25     that correct?

Page 12313

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  Based upon your review of the entries from 1992

 3     through 1994 in this KTN log-book as well as your personal recollection,

 4     were any criminal reports filed for crimes committed in 1992 against

 5     non-Serb victims?

 6        A.   No, they weren't at all.  And about Article 143, it should be a

 7     war crime.  But this is interesting; Markovic, Svjetlana.

 8     Svjetlana Markovic may have been a volunteer in the VRS and that's why

 9     she was entered here.  The 29th of December, 1992.  Because Articles 143

10     and 144 of the Criminal Code of the SFRY, these are the generic offences

11     of the war crime type, from the general chapter -- general section of the

12     Criminal Code.  It isn't clear what this is about, but it can be seen in

13     the file itself.

14        Q.   Thank you.  That's all we have for this document.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1483, Your Honours.

18             MR. OLMSTED:

19        Q.   The final thing I want to do with you is go over a couple

20     particular crime incidents and find out whether you had any information

21     from the police regarding those crimes in 1992.

22             You already mentioned a house fire on Pionirska Street.  Did you

23     receive any information from the police about a house fire that resulted

24     in the deaths of non-Serbs in 1992?

25        A.   No, I did not.  I didn't receive it from the police, and I didn't

Page 12314

 1     know about it.

 2        Q.   And what about a house fire in Bikavac in 1992 that resulted in

 3     the deaths of non-Serbs?  Did you receive any information from the police

 4     regarding such a crime?

 5        A.   No, no.

 6        Q.   And what about the killing of non-Serbs along the banks of the

 7     Drina River.  Did you ever receive any information from the police

 8     regarding such incidents in 1992?

 9        A.   No.  Never.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, but this

11     is -- this is so unspecific question.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  Yeah.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  And it has to have territorial limitation because

14     Drina is a long river.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  Okay.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Why would he be informed about the crimes which are

17     not on his territory; that's the point.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  That's fine.  I'll accept that.

19        Q.   In 1992 - you don't have to go into details - but in 1992, did

20     you know an individual by the name of Milan Lukic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you receive any reports or other information from the police,

23     the SJB Visegrad, about crimes committed by Milan Lukic against non-Serbs

24     in 1992?

25        A.   No.

Page 12315

 1        Q.   What about Sredoje Lukic?  Did you receive any information from

 2     the police about crimes he committed against the non-Serb population?

 3        A.   No.  Only I found out through private channels about some thefts

 4     of his, that he allegedly stole a TV set from a woman.  This case was

 5     reported.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's look at 65 ter 2860.

 7        Q.   Mr. Drasko, were you aware that Milan Lukic was arrested at some

 8     point in 1992?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And which authorities arrested him?  Were they RS authorities, or

11     were they from Serbia?

12        A.   From Serbia.

13        Q.   Do you recall roughly when he was arrested?

14        A.   I think it was in late 1992 or early 1993 that he was arrested in

15     Serbia for being in possession of arms -- or, rather, he was charged for

16     transporting weapons through Serbia, and then he was charged for

17     possession of weapons, according to their special law.

18        Q.   We're looking right now at a document dated the

19     2nd of November, 1992.  It's an Official Note of an interview with

20     Milan Lukic.  It says here that he was arrested on the

21     26th of October, 1992.

22             Is that consistent with your recollection?

23        A.   Yes.  I think he may have been arrested at the time -- at that

24     time for the -- the weapons.  But mainly because of the weapons.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could turn to the last page of this document.

Page 12316

 1        Q.   And if we look at the second-to-last paragraph, it states that:

 2             "Milan Lukic was in custody on the grounds that he was carrying

 3     weapons in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, a

 4     misdemeanour under laws of the Republic of Serbia."

 5             Is that consistent with your recollection regarding the reasons

 6     for his arrest?

 7        A.   Yes.  I don't think that, at the time, he was in detention for

 8     Sjeverin and Strpci.  It was only for possession of weapons, although in

 9     Serbia they knew about it.

10        Q.   Yes, and if we look at the third paragraph, there's mention that

11     he was interviewed about a murder as well as a kidnapping incident.

12             Can you tell us -- don't give us the name of the person murdered,

13     but was the person murdered -- what was his ethnicity?

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Olmsted.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes.

24             JUDGE HALL:  A, it is past time for the adjournment; and B, you

25     have exhausted the -- your allotted two hours.

Page 12317

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  This is -- if I possibly can do -- one, finish with

 2     this document, which won't take, I think, more than another five minutes.

 3     And then I would like to show him one more photograph just for him to

 4     pin-point places on it just because Your Honours won't be visiting

 5     Visegrad during your site visit.  So I think, at most, 15 minutes.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  But that will be when we return.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, of course, Your Honour.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Olmsted, Madam Korner inquired at the

12     beginning of this hearing if it would make sense to address the issue

13     raised in the Defence motion of 22nd June, responding to the admission of

14     evidence relating to ST-137, and the Chamber has now had a look at it,

15     and we agree that a useful use of the time, Monday and Tuesday when we

16     cannot have Witness 137 come and testify, would be, actually, to re-call

17     ST-179 and -- for the purpose of cross-examining him in light of the

18     information which has come to light in 139's statements and testimony.

19             So we will use Monday and Tuesday for that purpose.  And I hope

20     that it will be possible, if you react quickly, to actually call back 179

21     so as to make sure that he will be here by Monday.

22             But before we go any further, I think I'd like to ask Mr. Zecevic

23     and -- and Mr. Pantelic how much time would you need for the

24     cross-examination?

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 12318

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, we have a very few specific

 2     questions, and we think maximum one hour would be needed for

 3     cross-examination of that witness.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Probably less than that.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  And it be understood clearly that the

 7     cross-examination in any circumstance would be limited to the issues that

 8     you have raised in your motion.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Or in your response, paragraph 7, letter (a) to

11     (n), Alpha to November.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's correct, Your Honours.  It is limited

13     to the -- the cross-examination is limited to the information that we

14     received post festo [sic] from the -- from the delayed disclosure of the

15     witness which was submitted.

16             JUDGE HALL:  That is understood.

17             Mr. Pantelic, do you wish to cross-examine?

18             MR. PANTELIC:  I don't believe so, Your Honour.  We don't have --

19     maybe, if something just -- just to be sure, to be safe, 15 minutes.  But

20     I don't think that we should have any issue for the cross.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22             So, Monday will be reserved for the cross-examination of

23     Witness 179; and the Defence has indicated roughly one hour; and we would

24     give approximately the same time to the Prosecution to re-direct, or

25     re-examine Mr. 179.

Page 12319

 1             I hope you will succeed in bringing him here and ask you to take

 2     steps immediately to this effect.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  We'll do our best, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam Usher, would you bring in the witness.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             MR. OLMSTED:

 7        Q.   Welcome back, Mr. Drasko.  I'm going to try to wrap up in

 8     15 minutes, so let's try to keep your answers fairly short.

 9             We're looking at this document.  It's a interview of Milan Lukic

10     by Republic of Serbia authorities.  And if we look at the third-to-last

11     paragraph, it mentions this kidnapping incident and mentions that the

12     victims were from a place called Sjeverin.

13             Can you tell us, is that in the Republic of Serbia?

14        A.   It's on the border with -- Serbia is along the river of Uvac, and

15     then there are several crossing points, and Sjeverin is immediately on

16     the territory of Republic of Serbia, but then immediately after that they

17     have to enter the territory of Bosnia.  So the border -- you can even

18     find a place in Serbia that's an isolated little island within the

19     Bosnian -- an enclave within the Bosnian territory.  This is most

20     probably in Serbia, but to reach it you have to go through Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina.  But they do have access because it's a road that belongs to

22     both states.

23        Q.   The victims or the persons who were kidnapped, were they citizens

24     of Serbia?

25        A.   They were all citizens of Serbia.

Page 12320

 1        Q.   To your knowledge, was Milan Lukic investigated for this

 2     kidnapping incident at any point during the conflict, the years 1992

 3     through 1995?

 4        A.   I know that Sefko Amerovic [phoen] visited to -- visited Rudo and

 5     Priboj, also the head of state, the president of the state - what's his

 6     name? -  Cosic, and they asked for Lukic to be arrested.  He was arrested

 7     with the assistance of the VRS, and then he was escorted to the Uzice

 8     prison.  But, later on, VRS commander Pandurovic was later on attacked by

 9     people for assisting the arrest -- or, rather, providing information as

10     to where Lukic was.  Later on, Caruga - I think his real name is

11     Dragicevic - was saying that he should kill this officer.

12        Q.   Let me stop you there.  I want to talk about this kidnapping

13     incident that is reported or discussed in this particular document we're

14     looking in here.

15             Was this incident investigated and was Milan Lukic charged with

16     in kidnapping incident any time during the conflict in BiH, or was it

17     after the conflict in BiH that he was investigated and charged with it?

18        A.   I think it was --

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, I believe my learned friend needs to --

20     needs to limit his question by saying "by whom."  Whether it's the

21     authorities of Serbia, or authorities of Republika Srpska, or some other

22     authorities.  For the clarification.  Thank you.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Then I will clarify.

24        Q.   By anyone, by the Republika Srpska or the Republic of Serbia, did

25     anyone investigate and then charge Milan Lukic with this kidnapping

Page 12321

 1     incident during the conflict, meaning 1992 through 1995, or was it only

 2     after the conflict?

 3        A.   Milan Lukic was immediately processed, but it was a farce because

 4     he was not charged with kidnapping, he was charged with possession of

 5     arms.  There was a trial against him in Uzice but only for that crime,

 6     not for the kidnapping in Sjeverin or for another case, the case of

 7     Strpci.

 8        Q.   Now, in this -- on this occasion where he was detained on these

 9     illegal weapons allegations, how long was he held by the law enforcement

10     in the Republic of Serbia?  For how long?

11        A.   About ten days, I think, he was held.  And under pressure

12     excerpted by Milan's people, his mother and father, who came to Perisic,

13     to Visegrad to the police, they asked him back, threatened with

14     rebellion, and they wanted him to be released.

15        Q.   After 1992, was Milan Lukic still in Visegrad?

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm really sorry.  I note that the part of the

17     answer 63, 14, in relation to Perisic, what mother and father of

18     Milan Lukic did to Perisic was not recorded.

19             If the witness can repeat that.

20             MR. OLMSTED:

21        Q.   Okay.  Just returning very briefly to your prior answer, you

22     mentioned that the parents of Milan Lukic went to SJB Chief Perisic, and

23     what did they do?

24        A.   They disarmed the police.  They lined up the policemen and said,

25     If anything happened to him, we'll have a rebellion.  They brought some

Page 12322

 1     other special forces with him which threatened with a small war erupting

 2     in Visegrad.  Everybody was praying to go God that Lukic does not come

 3     back to Visegrad, but they asked for his release and for the return of

 4     weapons.

 5             Even I was sent to go to Serbia.  I talked to the police.  They

 6     did not give me the weapons.  They gave the weapons to Zika who was in

 7     charge of Visegradska Banja.  He got the weapons so that he can brag

 8     about it.  And then I went to the prosecutor, Slobodan, who gave me

 9     books.  We had a chat, and I realised it was all just a farce and that

10     they don't want to charge him for the kidnapping.  They only tried him

11     for that later on.

12        Q.   And you said that Milan Lukic was released.  Did he return to

13     Visegrad in -- later in 1992 and in 1993?  Was he in Visegrad?

14        A.   He returned to Visegrad and was, again, arrested, I think, on

15     this second occasion in relation to Strpci.  He became a businessman in

16     Visegrad, opened a cafe called Atina.  Sredoje also opened a cafe or a

17     bar.  They both became businessmen.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  May this document be tendered into evidence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1484, Your Honours.

21             MR. OLMSTED:

22        Q.   Now, finally, I want to show you 65 ter 3419.33.

23             While we're waiting for this document, Mr. Drasko, you said that

24     Milan Lukic was arrested a second time, on a second occasion.  Was this

25     in 1993 or 1994?  When was it?

Page 12323

 1        A.   I think it was in 1993 -- or 4th; I'm not sure.  But I know that

 2     he was again not charged with kidnapping in Strpci, that he was also,

 3     again, released.  And at the time he had already this catering facility,

 4     Atina, in Visegrad, and he was soon released.

 5             He wasn't tried for kidnapping until 2001 or 2002.  Serbia then

 6     tried him and Dragicevic.

 7        Q.   We're looking in front of us at a -- an aerial photograph.  Can

 8     you confirm that this is an aerial photograph of the area of Visegrad?

 9        A.   Yes.  This is a photograph showing, depicting the area of

10     Visegrad, we can see here --

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... before you start -- before

12     you comment on it, let's -- let's get -- hold on.  Just hold on.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  May we scroll over to the -- to the right, yes.

14     All the way, all the way.

15        A.   Yes, this is better, so I see the other bridge as well.

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... very good.

17             Now, can you mark, roughly, with a number 1, using the pen, can

18     you mark with a number 1 where the SJB was located in 1992?

19        A.   The old bridge ... just let me focus for a moment.

20             This is the old bridge.  The old bridge.  And this up here is the

21     new bridge.  This is Bikavac settlement, the Bikavac settlement.

22        Q.   Sir, since you've found the Bikavac settlement, can you mark with

23     a number 1 the Bikavac settlement.

24        A.   This -- this is Bikavac.  The new buildings there.  That's

25     Bikavac.

Page 12324

 1        Q.   Okay.  Can you put a number --

 2        A.   This is the new bridge, the blue bridge.  And this here is the

 3     old bridge.  And this bridge here is at the entrance into the city

 4     centre.

 5             Next to that bridge is the police station.

 6        Q.   Sir, yes, but we need you to be quite organised with this so that

 7     we can get this into evidence.

 8             Can you mark, with a number 1, Bikavac.  With a number 1.

 9        A.   This is number 1, Bikavac.

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... now with a --

11        A.   I don't know whether you see it.

12        Q.   We see it, and it looks kind of like two triangles, but we will

13     accept in the record that that's a number 1.

14             Can you mark with a number 2 where the SJB building was located?

15        A.   It doesn't leave mark at the same place where I draw it.  It it's

16     a bit to the right from where I want it.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Why don't we clear it and try it one more time.

18        Q.   Sir, if you can just hold on.  I think what we're going to do

19     is --

20        A.   It is off the mark about 30 centimetres to the right.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Can we clear the screen.

22        Q.   And then what we'll do -- Mr. Drasko, just follow my instructions

23     exactly so we make sure that the exhibit is properly marked.

24             If you can please now mark with a number 1 - just a line - where

25     Bikavac settlement is.

Page 12325

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Now, can you -- you showed us before that the SJB building was

 3     near the water edge and near a bridge.  Can you mark with a number 2

 4     where that SJB building is on this aerial photograph.

 5        A.   Yes, it's off to the right again.  Maybe 10 to 20 centimetres.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Could you mark the number 2.

 7        A.   This pen is off to the right.  It's impossible.  The pen is not

 8     precise.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  May I suggest we use a physical photocopy of the

10     picture, if have you it.  Because apparently the electronic system is not

11     calibrated at the moment.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour, for the suggestion.

13        Q.   Mr. Drasko, what I'm going to do is I'm going to hand you --

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And put it on the ELMO.

15             MR. OLMSTED:

16        Q.   -- this exhibit, 65 ter 3419.33, and ask you to mark with a

17     regular pen these few locations.

18        A.   The old bridge.

19        Q.   So mark, with the number 1, Bikavac.

20        A.   Police station, 2.

21        Q.   And then can you mark with a number 3 where Pionirska Street is

22     located.

23        A.   3.

24        Q.   And, finally, can you tell us, What's the distance between the

25     SJB and Pionirska Street roughly, in metres?

Page 12326

 1        A.   400 metres.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence.  Or do we have

 3     to publish it first?  I --

 4        Q.   Mr. Drasko, that's fine.  We're just going to publish it for the

 5     Trial Chamber and for the Defence.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  It's admitted and marked as an exhibit.  But,

 7     technically speaking, I'm not sure what is -- what has been tendered,

 8     but ...

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours, obviously we had to go through

10     the old fashioned way of a manual photograph, and the witness has marked

11     on it three locations:  1, Bikavac; 2, the SJB building; and,

12     3, Pionirska Street.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1485, Your Honours.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can -- can --

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I can see 1 and 2 on the map -- ah, 3 is up

16     there.  Right.  Thanks.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a long street.  It's all the

18     way up there.  It starts at Cadjava Kafana, it's a one-way street, and

19     leads towards Banpolje.  It's a very long street.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  And, Your Honours, that completes my

21     examination-in-chief.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Before counsel for the Defence commences the

23     cross-examination, I have been alerted, Mr. Olmsted, to the fact that the

24     OTP requests three minutes.  My experience is that such precise estimates

25     of time tend to cause problems particularly at the end of the day

Page 12327

 1     sittings.  Should I alert counsel to five minutes that you would need,

 2     rather than three?

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Sure, let's round it up to five.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thanks.

 5             [Microphone not activated] Mr. Cvijetic, counsel for the

 6     Prosecution has requested five minutes to deal with housekeeping matters,

 7     so would time yourself accordingly.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation], Mr. Drasko, good afternoon.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   I'm Slobodan Cvijetic, attorney-at-law, and one of the Defence

13     counsel on the Defence team of the accused, Mr. Mico Stanisic.

14             I will now try to elicit some more precise information from you

15     concerning the sequence of events that led to your appointment as public

16     prosecutor in Visegrad.

17             As far as I understood, you were officially appointed on

18     31st of October, 1992; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   However, there's something that caught my attention, and I

21     noticed it in your statement, too.

22             After that, you were also in the army as member of the so-called

23     TG Rudo, tactical group?

24        A.   TG Rudo, yes, Visegrad Brigade.

25        Q.   I deliberately spelled it out for the Bench to know what TG

Page 12328

 1     stands for, and I said that it is actually a tactical group.

 2             As member of that tactical group, you carried out some military

 3     missions; correct?

 4        A.   [No verbal response]

 5        Q.   I don't believe that your answer was recorded.  You must give an

 6     oral answer.

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   So practically, from the 31st of October on, you acted as

 9     prosecutor only temporarily because, parallel to that, you also had

10     duties in the military; correct?

11        A.   [No verbal response]

12        Q.   Now please give an oral answer because it wasn't recorded.

13             Is what I say correct?

14        A.   It is correct.

15        Q.   If I remember well, you said that you were practically requested

16     or asked to deal with some demanding and urgent cases, mostly murders,

17     for the perpetrators to be brought to justice; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You will agree with me when I say, then, won't you, that there

20     was no organised and systematic activity of the prosecutor's office

21     before 1993; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In 1993, you mentioned a date.  Let us just check its

24     significance.

25             I believe you said that you stayed a member of the TG Rudo until

Page 12329

 1     the 31st of January, 1993; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can we then conclude that only after that date did you start

 4     working as a prosecutor in an organised fashion?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Furthermore, I noticed in that KT log-book, when Mr. Olmsted

 7     showed it to you, a large gap in the entries, starting from

 8     March 1993 [as interpreted] through, I believe, August or September of

 9     the same year; correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   Furthermore --

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, it has been recorded

13     wrongly.  The year in question is 1992, not 1993, as recorded.

14        Q.   After that, in 1992, only the urgent cases that you were asked to

15     take over were entered in the log-book.

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the second

18     sentence.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. --

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Please repeat the second sentence.

22        A.   The court registry entered it in the log-books.

23        Q.   Very well.  This was going to be my next question, basically.  As

24     far as I could tell from your statement and from what you said, you only

25     got a registry clerk in 1993.

Page 12330

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers overlapped.  The answer has to be

 2     repeated.  Sorry.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do repeat your answer now.

 5        A.   Jela Rosic was hired as a clerk then.  She started working

 6     permanently at the prosecutor's office then.  She was under a work

 7     obligation.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Drasko, there's something I should have pointed

 9     out before Mr. Cvijetic began his cross-examination.  Inasmuch as the two

10     of you speak the same language, you have to bear in mind, both of you,

11     that time has to be allowed for the interpretation of question and the

12     answer so that it is properly recorded in the transcript.

13             So that the -- be aware of that gap between the question and when

14     you begin your answer.  Thank you.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So we can say that the small prosecution team was only

17     established in 1993.  And when I say that, I mean auxiliary personnel,

18     too.  Am I right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Very well.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see

22     Exhibit 1D03-4295.

23        Q.   I suppose that you recognise the decision on your appointment as

24     public prosecutor in Visegrad.  Can you see it on your screen?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12331

 1        Q.   And it, indeed, reads that on the 31st of October, 1992, you were

 2     officially appointed?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is a document

 5     that the witness is obviously familiar with, and I don't think that it is

 6     contested, so I seek to tender this.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Why?

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Is there any issue as to his having been appointed

 9     as the public prosecutor?  Why do we need the document?

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we need a

12     document to establish the exact date when the witness was appointed, and

13     there was much discussion about this, I believe that it can harm no one

14     to have a document about his appointment.  But I don't insist on its

15     being tendered.

16             JUDGE HALL:  I didn't appreciate that the date of his appointment

17     was an issue.  The --

18             Mr. Olmsted?

19             MR. OLMSTED:  No, in fact, I elicited that from him during

20     examination-in-chief that he was formally appointed on 31st of October.

21     And, as he testified, he -- he began functioning as a prosecutor much

22     earlier than that, in September.  So there is no dispute as to when his

23     formal appointment was made.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

Page 12332

 1     exact date when the witness started working is more topical now than ever

 2     because it concerns the issue of the legality of his activity until that

 3     date.

 4             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... admitted and

 5     marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D332, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Registrar, what is the 65 ter number of

 8     this document, please.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honours?

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Drasko, do you remember who actually made the proposal that

14     you be appointed?

15        A.   I was invited by Mr. Branimir Savovic to write an application.  I

16     left the command to the basic court because they had typists who could

17     type the application.  Radomira Bogdanovic suggested that she write it.

18     But then I noticed that she wrote that I was applying for the position of

19     judge rather than prosecutor.  Then I corrected her.  And then she wrote

20     that it was an application for both a judge and a prosecutor.  She took

21     the opportunity because she had a typewriter, although I can type with

22     ten fingers, and I accepted to run for both positions, because probably

23     she wanted to apply for the position of prosecutor.  The two of them were

24     the only ones there.

25        Q.   I must stop you here because you haven't answered my question.

Page 12333

 1             Who officially submitted the proposal to the Ministry of Justice

 2     or to the Assembly of the RS for you to be appointed?

 3        A.   I don't know who did it officially, but I handed my application

 4     to Branimir Savovic at his office.

 5        Q.   Then you must tell us who Mr. Branimir Savovic is.

 6        A.   Branimir Savovic, at the time, was the president of the

 7     municipality of Visegrad.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please see

 9     document 1D03-4292.

10             Your Honours, this document was sent to the translation service,

11     but I'm not sure that we've received a translation yet.  I'll -- I would

12     ask this document to be enlarged for the witness to be able to see it

13     better.

14        Q.   Mr. Drasko, I can see from this document that the proposal for

15     your appointment was submitted by the Wartime Commission of the Visegrad

16     Municipality.  Can you see it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And I'm sure you will --

19             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic,

20     what is this document?  We have no idea what we're looking at now.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am trying to

22     provide you the basics through the witness before we submit, of course,

23     the translation.

24             This is a proposal regarding appointment, Mr. Lazar Drasko, to

25     the position of public prosecutor.  We in the Defence find it relevant

Page 12334

 1     because of who submitted the proposal.  Based on this document, based on

 2     the heading, we can see that it was the Wartime Commission of the Serbian

 3     Municipality of Visegrad.  And my question to the witness was whether he

 4     could confirm that it was the Wartime Commissioner Office that sent this

 5     document to the Ministry of Justice and Administration.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And why -- sorry.  And why is that relevant?

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it will be clear

 8     once I've shown to the witness the documents related to the appointment

 9     of the entire police station and based on whose request.  I'm trying to

10     demonstrate the role of the local authorities in appointment of justice

11     and police organs in Visegrad.

12             We will just need to see the last page of this document and the

13     signature there.

14        Q.   And that will be all that I will be showing to you now.

15             Can you confirm this was signed by Branimir Savovic?

16        A.   [No verbal response]

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It should state "Branimir Savovic."  Can you repeat your answer,

20     please?

21        A.   Yes, Branimir Savovic.  But it is clear that this is not my text,

22     that they used my text as the basis for this, my application.  Because

23     the application does not contain my signature.

24        Q.    There's just one note in bold writing.  It says:

25             "Dispatch received via radio station."

Page 12335

 1             Can you comment on this, please?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I don't know how they worked at the time.

 3        Q.   My question related to this document is the following:  Have you

 4     seen this proposal ever before?

 5        A.   No.  I only know about my application, the one I submitted.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, although the witness

 7     has not seen this proposal, I believe that it should go together with the

 8     decision on his appointment, which is already in the evidence.  The

 9     witness confirmed that he was proposed to this position, to be appointed

10     to this position, by Mr. Savovic.  And to have a clear picture about how

11     he was appointed to his position, I would like to ask for this document

12     to be marked for identification until we have a translation of this

13     document.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, we don't, of course, object to it

15     being marked for identification.  But as far as it being admitted down

16     the road, well, we need a translation, 1; and, 2, as my learned friend

17     pointed out, this witness knows nothing about this document.  I can't see

18     how this witness is the -- can tender it.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the -- there are two issues here.  One is

20     that, as counsel on both sides have indicated, the well-worn path that we

21     have set out for documents of this nature is that if, in the Chamber's

22     view, they are potentially admissible - let me put it that way - that

23     they're marked for identification pending the translation.  But the

24     second issue is that the most that I -- the highest that this document

25     can be taken, if I under Mr. Cvijetic correctly, is that it -- its

Page 12336

 1     relevance is only its marriage to the document that was last reluctantly

 2     admitted.

 3             So what -- how does this assist?  Because the document that

 4     was -- that's still up on the screen in English was - as counsel would

 5     recall - admitted after some disputation, and the -- in the Chamber's

 6     view, it was of tangential relevance only.  So I don't know how we are

 7     going to be assisted by a document which, as I said, at its highest, is

 8     only married to that tangential document.

 9             Put it simply, do we need this even after it's translated?

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe the full

11     answer to this, we will have only after I've -- I've shown the next

12     document, the document that deals with how the public security station of

13     Visegrad was established.  And only then maybe one can reach an informed

14     decision about usefulness of this document.

15             Let me just remind you, with all due respect, Your Honours, that

16     you admitted several military reports that the witness did not know, was

17     not familiar with, yet he confirmed the contents.  So what I'm doing here

18     is I'm abiding by that approach.  And I do believe that this document is

19     of higher quality than the military reports that were admitted.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Except, Mr. Cvijetic, that this line of documents

21     relates exclusively to his appointment, the fact of which is not in

22     dispute.

23             Anyway, you have another document in train which would show us

24     how this is relevant.  Perhaps you can move on to that and then renew

25     your application in respect of this document.

Page 12337

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours.  I'm

 2     afraid I won't have time.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic,

 4     I -- Mr. Cvijetic, I have one other matter to raise.

 5             You said to -- in order to get this document marked for

 6     identification, you said that the witness confirmed that he was proposed

 7     to this position by Mr. Savovic.  I don't think he did so.  You asked him

 8     to assist you with an untranslated document, and he's confirmed that the

 9     document was signed by this gentleman but he doesn't know anything about

10     it, so he can't confirm that he -- he was appointed by this gentleman.

11     He can confirm that this document is signed by this gentleman.

12             Am I correct?

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe you haven't

14     heard the witness who, at page 74, stated that he handed over his

15     application for this appointment to the said Mr. Savovic.

16        Q.   Am I right, Mr. Drasko?  You can answer now.

17        A.   There is no contention about the fact that I was appointed by the

18     Assembly of Republika Srpska.  It is also clear that I submitted an

19     application for the position of the public prosecutor -- of the

20     prosecutor.  My colleague also added in that I applied for the position

21     of the judge.

22        Q.   Whom did you hand this document to?

23        A.   I took it to the municipality and handed it to Mr. Savovic.  You

24     cannot see my signature here.  They must have formed a file, but my

25     application must be part of it, somewhere in the ministry, because they

Page 12338

 1     must have sent my application to Sarajevo as well.  My application must

 2     be there, including my signature, because I agreed to be a --

 3     positioned -- to be put to that position.

 4        Q.   So you confirm that the Wartime Commission and Mr. Savovic worked

 5     further on your application and then forwarded it; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, is -- does the witness know that he was

 8     proposed to the Assembly by this Mr. Savovic?  He said -- he said he

 9     handed over his application to this gentleman, but that doesn't mean that

10     he was proposed to the Assembly by this gentleman or by the

11     War Committee.  If he knows that, that's okay.  Let the record show it.

12             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat his answer, please.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... so you know

15     that that was the case, that you were proposed by the War Committee?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I submitted an application,

17     and then it's upon them to choose.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Hank you.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the essence of my

20     proposal was to confirm this case of mine by putting this into evidence;

21     but, of course, I'm -- for the time being, proposing only for it to be

22     marked for identification.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, that's not entirely correct, unless

24     I've misunderstood you.  You told us that the relevance of the

25     appointment of this witness as prosecutor in Visegrad was to show the

Page 12339

 1     larger image about not only who appointed or decided who should be

 2     appointed as prosecutor but also who decided to be appointed as members

 3     of the police.  That last part we haven't heard anything about.

 4             So if this is your point, then get on with it.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see the time, but

 6     the document that will help us with this second issue is the following

 7     document.  It's a broader document.  I will have some other questions to

 8     put to the witness in relation to these other topics, but I don't think

 9     we have time for that at the moment.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So we would resume this issue tomorrow

11     morning.

12             Mr. Drasko, the trial is about to adjourn for the day.  We aren't

13     going to rise immediately.  The usher will escort you from the courtroom

14     before we rise.  But before you leave, I am obliged to remind you that,

15     having been sworn as a witness, you can not have any communication with

16     the lawyers from either side, nor in your discussions outside the

17     courtroom can you speak about your testimony.

18             So we resume in this courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19     Thank you.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

22             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honour, first I have just a notification:

23     This is to inform the court that we uploaded an official translation for

24     P510, which has the ERN ET -- P0035093.

25             And the issue I wanted to raise with -- oh, there's more.

Page 12340

 1     P0035108.  As well as an official translation of P530 with the

 2     ERN 0018-4319, 0018-4333-ET.  Thank you.  That was the message.

 3             Now, I just want to notify the Trial Chamber that, as far as

 4     ST-179 is concerned, we have contacted him, and he is available to come.

 5     The bad news, which may not be bad news, is that typically it takes five

 6     working days to get a visa for him.  But they're going to try to expedite

 7     it.  We have a witness who's scheduled to testify to start Wednesday, and

 8     that witness cannot be moved up at all because it's -- the arrangements

 9     have already been made.  So, at worst case scenario, ST-179 would start

10     on Tuesday.  But hopefully he will be here on Monday.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Olmsted.

12             So we take the adjourn --

13             Sorry, Mr. Zecevic, you were about to say something?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, I was expecting you would say that we were

15     adjourn, so I --

16             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow morning.

17     Thank you.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day

20                           of June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.