Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12633

 1                           Monday, 12 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case the IT-08-91-T, Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             May we begin by taking the appearances for today, please.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I'm Tom Hannis along

13     with Case Manager Jasmina Bosnjakovic for the Prosecution.  Thank you.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

16     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

18     Defence, Igor Pantelic.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'm ready to proceed with our next

22     witness, who is ST-159, Slobodan Markovic.

23             While he's coming in, I would indicate to the Court with relation

24     to one of the exhibits I propose to show this witness.  It is tab 10 in

25     the list I've sent around.  It's Exhibit P1137 already in evidence, but

Page 12634

 1     in preparing I noticed that the English translation which is in e-court

 2     only has the first two pages.  There's a third page that needs to be

 3     uploaded, and we're just seeking leave of the Court, if there's no

 4     objection from the Defence, to add that third page of the English

 5     translation and upload it into e-court.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, did I -- do I understand it's already an

 7     exhibit?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  It is, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Why -- the -- just a slight curiosity as to how it

10     would have been exhibited with a missing page?

11             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, the original B/C/S was complete, and in

12     e-court it was simply the third page of the English translation

13     inadvertently wasn't uploaded, only the first two pages.  We've sent an

14     e-mail to the Legal Officer and the Registry Officer indicating our

15     desire to do that.  And to the Defence as well.  So it's merely -- I

16     think it's merely just an administrative matter.  I'm trying to make the

17     record complete.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you.

19             We had gotten communication that for the record the OTP was going

20     to respond this morning to the application for provisional release of

21     number one accused.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             I wanted to advise the Court that the Prosecution does not intend

24     to file anything in writing.  I was asked to inform the Court of the

25     Prosecution's general position opposing provisional release.  However, at

Page 12635

 1     this stage of the case and given Mr. Stanisic's previous record, we take

 2     no position and leave it to the discretion of Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So noted.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  First of all, do you

 5     here me in a language you understand?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Yes, I can hear you

 7     well.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And thank you for coming to the

 9     Tribunal to give your testimony.

10             You are about to read a solemn declaration, by which witnesses

11     commit themselves to tell the truth.  I need to point out that the solemn

12     declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the penalties

13     of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to this

14     Tribunal.

15             Now then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the

16     solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN MARKOVIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir, you may be seated.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And could we begin by asking you to state your

24     full name and your date and place of birth, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Slobodan Markovic.  I

Page 12636

 1     was born on the 14th of February, 1958, in Sarajevo, in what was then the

 2     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Markovic.  And what is your

 4     ethnicity?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your profession today?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in the Ministry of the

 8     Interior of Republika Srpska as an inspector working war crimes.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what was your occupation in 1992?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was one of the managers in the

11     Security Services Centre in Sarajevo.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Now, sir, is this your first

13     testimony before this Tribunal?  Have you ever given testimony before,

14     here or in any tribunal in your country on these matters?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I'm

16     testifying before the Tribunal in The Hague.  I have not given testimony

17     anywhere.  But on the 26th of February, 2008, your investigator,

18     Mr. Barry from Canada, came to see me in my office in Bijeljina where I

19     gave a statement to him.  And there is a CD-ROM with a record of the

20     statement.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let me explain to you briefly how the proceedings

22     will unfold here.

23             You have been called as a witness by the Prosecutor, who is

24     sitting on your right, and the Prosecutor has asked, all together, for

25     three hours for your examination-in-chief.  After that, counsel for

Page 12637

 1     Mr. Stanisic, sitting to your left, has asked for four hours.  And Mr. --

 2     the counsel for Mr. Zupljanin asked for two hours and a half to

 3     cross-examine you.

 4             When Mr. Pantelic, the counsel of Mr. Zupljanin is through, we

 5     will give the floor back to the Prosecutor who will have a chance to some

 6     final questions in light of the answers you have given to your

 7     cross-examination.  And after that, and in between, the Judges may all --

 8     may, at all times put questions to.  After that, your testimony will be

 9     finished.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Now, one practical matter.  Recordings here are

12     taking on video-tape and the tapes have to be changed every 90 minutes.

13     So that means that every hour and a half we have a break of about

14     20 minutes, and then we continue.  The proceedings today will go from

15     9.00 to quarter to 2.00 and will resume tomorrow.

16             That's all I have to say for the moment.  Thank you very much.

17     And I will give the floor now to Mr. Hannis for the Prosecutor.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:

20        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

21             MR. HANNIS:  For the record, Your Honour, I would indicate --

22             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23             MR. HANNIS: -- at page 4, line 12, the witness gave an answer

24     about being interviewed by an investigator, Mr. Barry from Canada.  I

25     would indicate that that is an investigator named Barry Hogan who works

Page 12638

 1     for the Office of the Prosecutor and not for the Chambers.

 2        Q.   Mr. Markovic, I understand you're presently working for the MUP

 3     and you were working for the MUP in 1992.  Can you tell us briefly when

 4     you first began working for the MUP and what education -- educational

 5     training you had before you began work there?

 6        A.   Before I started working in the Ministry of the Interior of what

 7     was Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time, I completed the Faculty for

 8     Physical Education in Sarajevo.  And then for three and a half years I

 9     taught in a school.  And later on I transferred to the police; that was

10     on the 4th of August, 1987.

11        Q.   And in 1991, where were you working and what position did you

12     hold?

13        A.   In 1991, I worked in the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo as

14     an officer in charge of the operations centre in the public security

15     centre.

16        Q.   Did you have occasion to meet and/or work with Mico Stanisic

17     during that time?

18        A.   At one time, Mr. Stanisic was my immediate superior as the chief

19     of the centre there.

20        Q.   Do you recall what time-period that was?

21        A.   I think it was sometime in 1990, but I'm not entirely certain,

22     because the chiefs of the centre came and went.

23        Q.   We've heard evidence about how in early April there was a split

24     of the MUP in Bosnia, and a separate Serbian MUP or what later became

25     called the Republika Srpska MUP was formed.  Did there come a time when

Page 12639

 1     you left the old joint MUP and went to the Republika Srpska MUP?

 2        A.   Yes.  On the 17th of April, 1991, I left the MUP of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina because there were --

 4        Q.   Sorry to interrupt, but your answer was translated as the

 5     17th of April, 1991, and I believe that's probably --

 6        A.   1992.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Sorry to interrupt.  Please go on.

 8        A.   In 1992, on 17th of April, I left the joint MUP of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina because the situation in the security centre was such that

10     that was great deal of animosity between the policemen of all three

11     ethnicities, Serb, Croat, and Muslim.  I left to join the training centre

12     for the Ministry of Interior personnel in Vrace, in Sarajevo, where I

13     joined the Serbian MUP.

14        Q.   And when you went to Vrace on the 17th of April, who -- who did

15     you report to and what work did you begin doing there?

16        A.   Well, to be quite frank, at the time, in Vrace, members of Serb

17     ethnicity, employees of the police, were gathering there.  My immediate

18     superior was Mr. Cedo Kljajic, a man who used to work in the security

19     centre before the war, and he was my immediate superior there, at that

20     time.  He was the head of the police there.

21        Q.   When you say Cedo Kljajic was the head of the police there, did

22     you mean in Vrace?

23        A.   He was the chief of the police in the public security centre in

24     Sarajevo before the war and then he held the same post, like the police

25     chief, because, at that time, posts were being established in the new

Page 12640

 1     Ministry of the Interior of what was then the Serbian Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   How long did you remain at Vrace?

 4        A.   I remained in Vrace until the 9th of May, 1992, and then I left

 5     for Pale at the recommendation of Mr. Cedo Kljajic, who knew me as an

 6     employee of his, and he recommended me to be a member of the

 7     Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoner, representing the

 8     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Let's me show you an exhibit that's in evidence now.

10             MR. HANNIS:  This is P179.18.  It's at tab 1.

11        Q.   It will be up on the screen in a minute, Mr. Markovic?

12             This is dated the 8th May, 1992, and it's entitled:

13             "A Decision to Form a Central Commission."

14             And the name of Slobodan Markovic appears at number 2 as a

15     representative of the Ministry of the Interior for the Central

16     Commission.

17             Is that you?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   Did you receive a copy of this decision in 1992?

20        A.   Yes.  I received it immediately when I arrived in Pale on the

21     9th of May.  As can you see, the decision was issued by the prime

22     minister of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23     Professor Branko Djeric, on the 8th of May.  So I arrived there one day

24     after this decision on the establishment of the Central Commission was

25     issued, and I received a copy of this decision.  I have a copy myself,

Page 12641

 1     but it had been faxed to me so it's now virtually illegible.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Before you went to Pale on the 9th of May, how did it

 3     come about that you were named to join this commission?  Did Mr. Kljajic

 4     ask to you volunteer, or had he already put your name in and he was just

 5     telling you that you were going there?  What do you know about that?  Can

 6     you tell us?

 7        A.   I have already noted that Mr. Cedo Kljajic had been my superior

 8     officer in the joint Ministry of Interior in the security centre in the

 9     police department to which I belonged.  He had known me for a number of

10     years and probably appreciated my knowledge and experience.  He asked me

11     if I would like to go to Pale and be a member of the Central Commission

12     representing the MUP.

13             I asked him, perhaps a bit inappropriately, how long that would

14     last.  And he told me, Well, some 15 or 20 days.  He obviously didn't

15     think that it -- there would be chaos in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that it

16     would last for much, much longer than that.

17        Q.   How long did you actually end up working for the commission for

18     exchange?

19        A.   I worked there until the end of March 1993.  On the

20     1st of April of 1993, I transferred to the Ministry of the Interior of

21     Republika Srpska in Bijeljina where an office was set up, and I worked as

22     an inspector there in the Police Department of the Ministry of the

23     Interior.

24        Q.   The other members of the commission named in this decision - I

25     see from our copy on the screen that it's a pretty poor copy - but I

Page 12642

 1     understand from other evidence that number 1 is Rajko Colovic; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   That's correct, yes.  Rajko Colovic is represented under

 4     number 1.  He represented the Ministry of Justice and Administration of

 5     Republika Srpska, and he also was the chairman of the commission, because

 6     the commission worked under the auspices of the justice ministry.

 7        Q.   And number three is a Lieutenant-Colonel Caslav Mihajlovic.  Did

 8     you ever see him?  Did he ever come and do any work on the commission

 9     that you know of?

10        A.   Yes, Lieutenant-Colonel Mihajlovic, Caslav is listed under

11     number 3.  He represented the Ministry of National Defence, and he was

12     also a member of the Central Commission.  But this gentleman never

13     appeared, and I never actually got introduced to him.

14        Q.   Sometime later on in 1992 was there another individual who came

15     to represent the Ministry of Defence or the army on the commission?

16        A.   I remember that there was a serious gentleman.  I think he was

17     colonel or lieutenant-colonel; a high-ranking officer at any rate.  His

18     name was Budimir Djordjic.  But he stayed there for just one day, he got

19     acquainted with the work of the ministry, and then he never showed up

20     again.

21        Q.   And after him, anyone else from the army?

22        A.   No.  No.  No one from the Defence Ministry ever worked in the

23     commission as a member.

24        Q.   Or how about the army?

25        A.   Later on, there was Mr. Dragan Bulajic.  Months later.  He

Page 12643

 1     represented the army there in the commission.  But that was later on.

 2     After several months.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.  And how long did

 4     Mr. Colovic remain in the position of president of the commission, if you

 5     recall?

 6        A.   Well, we started working on the 9th of May.  I think that

 7     sometime on the 6th of June, 1992, he asked the prime minister to be

 8     allowed to leave the commission, because he was a lawyer, a judge, and

 9     probably this was not the job to his liking.  He was probably looking for

10     a better job, keeping in sight his career.  And there was an opening

11     somewhere for him.

12        Q.   In terms of your job, when you went to work for this

13     government-created commission for exchange of prisoners, what was your

14     relationship with the MUP?  Were you still an employee of MUP during this

15     time?

16        A.   Yes.  I was still an employee of the Ministry of the Interior,

17     and they paid my salary, paltry as it was; but as a representative of the

18     Ministry of the Interior, I sat there on this commission, which was part

19     of the Government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20        Q.   I'd like to show you, in connection with that, an exhibit.

21             MR. HANNIS:  65 ter 1271 [Realtime transcript read in

22     error "1275"].  This is tab 47.

23        Q.   Mr. Markovic, coming up on the screen in a moment will be what

24     appears to be a payroll list or sheet for the MUP in connection with

25     September 1992.

Page 12644

 1             And do you see number 18 on that list on the page in front of

 2     you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is that you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And your title is -- your job duty or description is as an

 7     inspector.  Were you still working on the Exchange Commission in

 8     September 1992?

 9        A.   Yes.  I was working on the Exchange Commission, and as I told

10     you, I was being paid by my -- by the Ministry of the Interior.  We were

11     not paid by the government.  I was being paid by the MUP as an inspector

12     with a university education, as stated here.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. HANNIS:  I'd like to tender that one, Your Honour.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1487, Your Honours.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

19             And I see in the transcript at page 11, line 13, it was indicated

20     as 65 ter Exhibit "1275," and it should be "1271," just to be clear.

21             And that is the one that's on the screen.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Markovic, when you began your work for the commission,

23     did you have any kind of guidance or direction from the prime minister or

24     anyone else about what you were supposed to do in the

25     Exchange Commission?

Page 12645

 1        A.   Only one of the people working in the government secretariat.  I

 2     think he was a secretary in the cabinet.  I think his name was

 3     Nedeljko Lakic.

 4             When we were chatting informally, he told me we would be given an

 5     office in Kalovita Brda in a hotel called Buducnost and that there we

 6     would be receiving parties, conducting conversations or talks, and so on.

 7     So that was all the information I got, and I got it from Mr. Lakic.  No

 8     one expected that it would last as long as it did.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Were you given any marching orders about how you were

10     supposed to go about your job, or did you and Mr. Colovic figure out on

11     your own what you were going to do and how you were going to do it?

12        A.   When we arrived at Pale and when the commission was established,

13     people heard that there was a Commission for Exchange.  And on both

14     sides -- members of both sides were brought, and we had a conversation

15     with a member of the BH commission about exchanges.  And these were

16     carried out at the demarcation line between Sarajevo and Pale.  I think

17     the gentleman's name was Musir Brkic, on the other side, the Bosnian

18     side, that is.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let me show you next a document that is in

20     evidence.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Exhibit P427.7.  It's tab 7.

22        Q.   While that's coming up, Mr. Markovic, I'll tell you it's dated

23     the 6th of June, 1992, and it has the name of Rajko Colovic as president

24     of the commission and a signature at the bottom of the last page.  It's

25     entitled an order.

Page 12646

 1             Do you recognise that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Tell us about it.

 4        A.   Rajko Colovic and I drew this document up together, but it was he

 5     who signed it, as president of the commission.

 6             I remember this well.  Here we prescribed the way prisoners were

 7     to be treated, civilians, soldiers, and so on, and can you see this from

 8     the order itself, the manner in which the premises should be arranged,

 9     what they should contain, sanitary facilities, and so on and so forth.

10     Can you see all this from the document, that they should be allowed to

11     receive food, clothes, items of personal hygiene, even food brought by

12     their relatives.

13        Q.   And in the order in the first paragraph we see that all the

14     public security services are supposed to keep records of persons detained

15     or brought in.  And in the second paragraph:  That they shall submit

16     lists of detainees or persons deprived of liberty to municipal

17     commissions for exchange.

18             Is that right?

19        A.   Members of the public security service had the right to detain

20     persons up to three days on their premises.  They could not deprive them

21     of their liberty but they could detain them.

22             After that, the persons detained on these premises at the

23     Security Services Centres were handed over to members of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.  And from that point onwards, it was the army who took

25     over all responsibility for these people, including housing, food,

Page 12647

 1     clothing, and so on.  So the employees of the Security Services Centre

 2     could only detain people for up to three days.  After that, they had to

 3     hand them over to members of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   I understand that's how the law and the regulations were written.

 5     But, in fact, are you aware that sometimes people were detained by

 6     members of the MUP for more than three days during 1992?

 7             Did you know about that?

 8        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, at that time, I was at Pale.  I'm not saying

 9     these things did not happen in some places controlled by the

10     Army of Republika Srpska without out knowledge.  At that time, there were

11     no telephone or teleprinter communications, and the roads were bad, and

12     it's possible that such things did occur.  However, at Pale, where I was

13     employed, I can tell you that no such thing happened.

14        Q.   Thank you.  One -- one thing in your previous answer that maybe

15     you can help me with, and I think it may be a matter of translation or

16     the difference between the Serbian and English languages.

17             At page 14, line 8, your answer, you said:

18             "Members of the public security service had the right to detain

19     persons up to three days on their premises.  They could not deprive them

20     of their liberty but they could detain them."

21             Can you explain for me what is the difference between detaining

22     someone and depriving someone of their liberty?  Because, for me, in

23     English, detention is a form of depriving someone of their liberty.

24             So I think maybe it's a technical term that means something

25     different in Serbian.  If you could, please?

Page 12648

 1        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, detention or detaining someone is when you, for

 2     example, find someone drunk driving and you detain them until they sober

 3     up.  That is a form of detention.  A person found drunk driving,

 4     regardless of whether they have caused the traffic accident or not, is

 5     detained on the premises until they sober up.  Also, persons who

 6     committed crimes, regardless of ethnicity, whether they were citizens of

 7     Serb ethnicity or non-Serb ethnicity, could be detained up to three days.

 8     After that, they had to be taken to the district court, and the district

 9     court would proceed further and take further action.  And then they might

10     be sent to a remand prison or whatever.

11             So it was up to the court to decide what to do with them in

12     connection with the crime they committed.

13        Q.   Okay.  And -- and what was depriving someone of their liberty

14     mean?

15        A.   Well, depriving someone of their liberty is a completely

16     different thing from detention.  A person can be deprived of his or her

17     liberty if they have committed a serious crime and if it is thought they

18     might repeat that crime.  Then they are deprived of their liberty.  If

19     it's thought that if released they might influence witnesses who could

20     testify in their case.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

22             MR. HANNIS:  If we could show the second page of the B/C/S and

23     the last page of the English of this document on the screen, please.

24        Q.   Mr. Markovic, I see that this document was sent to several

25     addressees, including the Ministry of Justice, the MUP, the -- the

Page 12649

 1     centres, and the public security stations, as well as regional and

 2     municipal commissions for exchange.

 3             Do you know, as of early June 1992, how many regional and

 4     municipal commissions for exchange were in existence, approximately?

 5        A.   I can't say what number was existence, because the Crisis Staffs

 6     in the municipalities organised their own commissions for the exchange of

 7     prisoners, and we were unable to send them proper instructions because

 8     the regional staffs established these commissions and exchanged Serbs for

 9     Muslims.

10             And when you say that this was addressed to all, I don't know

11     whether the commissions received this document at all or whether the

12     municipal and regional commissions and the public security stations

13     received it.  I doubt that teleprinters, faxes, and so on were working at

14     the time.  They were not operational.  So they acted according to the

15     instructions of these War Staffs.

16        Q.   Thank you.  If I could show you next an exhibit.

17             MR. HANNIS:  P228 in evidence.  This is tab 8.

18        Q.   Mr. Markovic, this is a -- these are the minutes of a government

19     meeting on the 9th of June, 1992.  I think you've -- you saw this one

20     during proofing.

21        A.   Yes.  But I didn't see it before that.

22        Q.   And item number 1 (a) on the agenda is the Order of the

23     Central Committee for the Exchange of Prisoners.  Is that the document we

24     were just looking at, the one signed by Mr. Colovic that you and he

25     prepared together?

Page 12650

 1        A.   Yes.  I didn't sign it, but we did draw it up together.  He was

 2     the only one who signed it.  But yes, that's the document.

 3        Q.   And at the bottom of the page we see that the government has

 4     supported the order of the Central Committee.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   It says the government acknowledged the letter of correspondence

 7     from the president of the Central Committee for Exchange, and it's been

 8     concluded that the minister of justice should talk to Rajko Colovic, the

 9     committee president, to determine what are the motives for requesting the

10     change.

11             Do you know what's that -- what that is about?  What change was

12     Mr. Colovic requesting around the 9th of June?

13        A.   As I've already said, Mr. Colovic may have thought that it was

14     beneath his dignity as a judge from the previous system, that he deserved

15     a better job.  He was young, he had great career prospects, and he

16     thought he could do better.  And that's why they were looking for someone

17     else to fill his place on the commission.

18        Q.   And do you recall whether or not he was replaced; and, if so, who

19     replaced him, as president of the commission?

20        A.   Much later on, a member of the commission turned up with two

21     colleagues from the Ministry of Justice who were drawing up lists and

22     talking to members of the public.  And a man called Nenad Vanovac turned

23     up and introduced himself as the new president of the Commission for the

24     Exchange of Prisoners of War.  I said I'm glad to meet you, I'm glad

25     we'll be cooperating.  He spent that day at Pale and then he went back to

Page 12651

 1     Ilidza Brigade, from where he had come.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Mr. Hannis.  I don't think that the

 3     beginning of the answer, the witness's answer, was recorded as witness

 4     said.  So it's page 18, line 7, 8, and 9.  I believe he was talking about

 5     the fact that he was sitting in the -- in the office with two members of

 6     the Ministry of Justice.

 7             Maybe you can clarify that.  Thank you.

 8             MR. HANNIS:

 9        Q.   Mr. Markovic --

10        A.   [No interpretation]

11        Q.   -- you heard what Mr. Zecevic said.  Our English translation in

12     the transcript says your answer was:

13             "Much later on, a member of the commission turned up with two

14     colleagues from the Ministry of Justice who were drawing up lists ..."

15             Was that yourself you were referring to as the member of the

16     commission who was drawing up lists with --

17        A.   [No interpretation]

18        Q.   -- two members?  Please explain.

19        A.   No, no.  No, I'm afraid the gentleman didn't understand me.

20             When Rajko Colovic left, two young women from the Ministry of

21     Justice arrived.  They did administrative work.  They collected lists.

22     People arrived in our office in Pale to report missing persons.  They

23     said their sons or brothers had gone missing on the line.  They were

24     employees of the Ministry of Justice, but they were not members of the

25     commission.  They were simply administrative staff, two girls.  One was

Page 12652

 1     called Biljana Brkic; today she is a judge or a lawyer in Doboj.  The

 2     other one is called Gordana Bagic [phoen], and I don't know where she is

 3     today.  She typed out those lists.  She didn't do anything else.

 4        Q.   And who replaced Mr. Colovic as a representative of the

 5     Ministry of Justice and took up the position of president of the

 6     commission?

 7        A.   I've already mentioned that a person called Nenad Vanovac turned

 8     up.  He came from Ilidza, which is a suburb of Sarajevo.  And at that

 9     time it was being held by members of the Army of Republika Srpska.  He

10     introduced himself as the new president of the commission and said he had

11     been appointed by the minister of justice, Mr. Momcilo Mandic.

12             I introduced myself.  He didn't show me any documents, any

13     decision or letter.  I accepted his word.  We discussed the lists, the

14     problems on the ground, the fact that the other side was not respecting

15     our mutual agreements, that they were not bringing the number of people

16     we asked for or the people we asked for by name.  I told him all this,

17     and after that, he went back to Ilidza.  Probably he worked in that part

18     of Sarajevo on these exchanges, and I remained with those two young women

19     I mentioned who were doing administrative work.

20        Q.   Did you and Mr. Vanovac then do any work together, or was he

21     working separately in Ilidza and you were working in Pale, sort of doing

22     your own thing?

23        A.   Well, with the best will in the world to cooperate, it was not

24     possible.  There were no telephone lines, no teleprinter communications,

25     all the roads from Pale to the other part of Sarajevo were blocked.  It

Page 12653

 1     was impossible to reach Ilidza at the time, to meet or to talk.

 2        Q.   Let me show you, regarding Mr. Vanovac, Exhibit P1137.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  And with the usher's help, if I could hand him a

 4     hard copy of the document.

 5        Q.   Mr. Markovic, while this is coming up, I'll tell you it's a

 6     transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation dated the

 7     23rd of June, 1992, between a Nenad Vanovac and Momcilo Mandic.

 8             At the bottom of your first page, I think, and at the top of the

 9     second page in English, Mr. Vanovac ask:

10             "Who am I going to be talking to in the future?  I can't find

11     this Elez anywhere."

12             Mandic says:

13             "Forget Elez.  Everything's here with me directly until I find

14     the right man."

15             Do you know who the Elez is that's being referred to there?

16        A.   Elez was a lower-ranking officer of the Army of Republika Srpska.

17     He had some sort of rank, but I don't remember exactly, a sergeant or

18     something like that.  He was representing the army.  He was trying to

19     manipulate something through civilians, but he was never a member of the

20     commission established by the government.

21        Q.   Did he have any work to do with the exchange of prisoners on

22     behalf of the military, if you know?

23        A.   No.  He had nothing to do with the work of the official

24     Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War, the state commission.

25     He nothing to do with it.  And he was not a member of that commission.

Page 12654

 1     He was with the army, he carried military insignia, he did not have any

 2     decision appointing him to the commission, and he had had nothing to do

 3     with the Central Commission by the Government of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   On the next page in your B/C/S, you see there's mention of

 5     Rajko Colovic.  And then, further on, Mr. Vanovac says:

 6             "They called me about the eight you approve for the exchange with

 7     Hrasnica and Kolonija.  This seems like Mr. Mandic's approved an exchange

 8     of prisoners."

 9             Am I reading that correctly?

10        A.   Absolutely, yes.  Mr. Mandic, as the ministry of justice, was the

11     superior of all the prison wardens belonging to the Ministry of Justice.

12     How this was done and what they actually were doing, I don't know.

13             MR. HANNIS:  And then if we could look next at Exhibit P1318.25.

14     It's at tab 17.

15        Q.   Mr. Markovic, this will be on your screen in a moment.  It's

16     dated the 4th of July, 1992.

17        A.   [No interpretation]

18        Q.   It's a document from the minister of justice, signed by someone

19     else but signed for Momcilo Mandic.  And you see it's informing that

20     Mr. Nenad Vanovac has been appointed president of the Central Commission

21     for Exchange of Prisoners -- or prison soldiers and individuals.

22        A.   You can see, in the last line:

23             "The decision by the Government of the Serbian Republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina will be forwarded subsequently."

25             So the minister of justice is appointing him, but the decision

Page 12655

 1     will be forwarded subsequently.

 2             I have to say that the first time I saw this document was during

 3     the proofing yesterday.  Although he had already introduced himself to me

 4     as the president and I accepted his word, you see he was appointed by

 5     Momcilo Mandic himself, the minister of justice.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you, now, a little bit about how your

 7     day-to-day work functioned on the commission.  And let me show you, in

 8     connection with that, Exhibit P179.17.  This is tab 2 in the binder.

 9             I think you said you arrived Pale on the 9th of May.  And this

10     document has a date of 14 May, so it seems to one of your earliest

11     involvements in exchanges or dealing with prisoners or detained persons.

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, this is my handwriting.  I wrote this.  400 persons on

13     18 pages who were brought from Bratunac to Pale.  This is my handwriting

14     on this document.

15             MR. HANNIS:  And could we look at page 3 of the B/C/S and of the

16     English.

17        Q.   Is that your signature in the handwritten entry at the bottom of

18     the page?

19        A.   Yes.  It says here:

20             "Member of the government commission on behalf of the Serbian MUP

21     for the exchange of prisoners of war, Slobodan Markovic."

22             And you can see my signature in the bottom right-hand corner, and

23     the date is there in the bottom left-hand corner.  But the lists are not

24     in my handwriting.  It was probably those two secretaries, those two

25     female colleagues, who actually wrote the names.

Page 12656

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Mr. Hannis, I'm sorry.  Just -- if I can just make

 2     a note there.  On page 21, line 19, the -- the witness's answer was

 3     recorded as a part of your question.  Thank you.

 4             The answer starts after "the imprisoned soldiers."  Thank you.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Markovic, concerning this group of 400 or so men from

 7     Bratunac, how -- how did you become involved in this?  How did you find

 8     out they were there, and how did you get involved in doing anything in

 9     connection with them?

10        A.   I was told by a person from the communications centre in the

11     Army of Republika Srpska that 400 people had arrived from Bratunac,

12     escorted by the military police and the army.  As Rajko Colovic, at that

13     time, was not in Pale, and he was still a member of the commission at the

14     time, he was at Han Pijesak which is some 60 or so kilometres away or

15     more from Pale, I went to fetch him as the president.  I went to fetch

16     him from his home and brought him back to Pale.  In the meantime, all

17     these people who had been brought from Bratunac were put in the gym of

18     the primary school in Pale.

19             Some were in civilian clothes.  A good part wore parts of

20     uniforms, military uniforms.  Some had olive-drab JNA shirts.  Some had

21     military boots or military pants and so on.  And there were also some

22     individuals who were dressed in civilian clothes without any parts of

23     military uniform.  But most of them did have at least one item of

24     clothing that was a military uniform.

25        Q.   Did you speak with any of these men detained at the Pale

Page 12657

 1     elementary school gym?

 2        A.   When food was distributed to them, they came in the evening and

 3     left the next day, but they were served three meals.  And I would like to

 4     say that we gave them some fish with bread because we didn't want to

 5     given them meat because we were afraid that they would not want to eat it

 6     because of their religious beliefs.  We respected those religious beliefs

 7     and gave them some fish.  We spoke to the representatives of those

 8     people, and they asked what would happen to them.  I had already been

 9     told that all 400 of them would be transferred to Visoko.  So people were

10     free to move.  And all 400 of them were to be taken to Visoko, to the

11     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12             And, later on, this was confirmed by a document sent by

13     Nedin Vranac [phoen], the head of the police station in Visoko, who

14     thanked us for our actions and for the fact that those people had not

15     been maltreated in any way.  They had simply been taken there on three or

16     four -- two or three trailer trucks to the demarcation line under

17     military escort where they were taken in by the forces of the Muslim

18     army.

19        Q.   In part of your answer, you said, line 3, page 24:

20             "I had already been told that all 400 of them would be

21     transferred to Visoko."

22             Who told you that?

23        A.   Well, this had been arranged.  This was a huge number of people.

24     400 people.  In Pale, there were people who had lost their kin, their

25     brothers, children, and so on, in the fighting, and it was very difficult

Page 12658

 1     to keep the 400 safe from those Serbs who had lost their family members.

 2     They were guarded by the military police, and it was arranged that they

 3     would be moved.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 5        A.   It was agreed with the prime minister that they would be moved to

 6     Visoko.

 7        Q.   And who told you about it?

 8        A.   Well, Colovic had probably spoken to the prime minister.  As the

 9     chairman of the commission, he got in touch with the prime minister and

10     then the prime minister spoke to the Crisis Staff, as I could see from

11     your documents, the Crisis Staff in Sokolac.  And he asked them to

12     provide three trailer trucks to transport those ethnic Muslims to Visoko.

13     Although it was logical for the prime minister to notify us as the

14     Central Commission, representing his and our function, and we were

15     supposed to take over from that time because it was not logical for the

16     prime minister to ask the Sokolac Crisis Staff to provide the trucks,

17     because we could have done the same thing.  We -- it was really our job

18     to do it.

19        Q.   Okay.  You said in the previous answer that these men were

20     guarded by the military police.

21             At the elementary school in Pale, weren't there also some regular

22     police guarding them?

23        A.   No.  Sir, I did not say it was in the elementary school.  It was

24     in the gym of the elementary school.

25        Q.   And weren't there also regular police guarding them as well as

Page 12659

 1     military police?

 2        A.   Well, the security was provided by the military police and the

 3     Republika Srpska army troops.  They secured the building.  But it was

 4     also a fact that in the immediate vicinity of this building there was the

 5     public security station in Pale, and it is quite possible that some

 6     police officers would come and speak to their colleagues from the army,

 7     and it might have appeared that they also had been involved in guarding

 8     the building but that was not the case.  They did their job, the job of

 9     the operatives of the Ministry of Interior.  They were there on their

10     regular business, as far as it could be taken care of.

11        Q.   Are you saying you didn't see any regular police inside the

12     gymnasium of the elementary school during the time these 400 prisoners

13     were kept there in May 1992?

14        A.   In the gym where they were detained?  No.

15             Regular police did not enter those premises.  I was the only one

16     who got in, in order to speak to their representatives, to tell them that

17     everything would be all right, that there should not be concern, and that

18     they would be transferred to Visoko.

19        Q.   I'll come back to that in a minute.

20             Let me ask you about your work in -- in dealing with exchanges

21     with the other side.  Did you know an individual named Amor Masovic?

22        A.   Masovic.  Amor Masovic.  He was a chairman of the Commission for

23     the Exchange of Prisoners of War of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And today he

24     actually chairs the institute for the search for the missing persons in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  On all sides.  They search for the missing

Page 12660

 1     people in all the ethnic communities.  It's a central institute; it was

 2     established in Sarajevo.  But, yes, I had heard about him, and I did meet

 3     with him.

 4        Q.   And did the two of you work together with a list that each of you

 5     had of detained individuals in the other person's territory?  For

 6     example, did you have list of Serbs you believed were being detained in

 7     Mr. Masovic's part of the territory, and did he have list of non-Serbs

 8     that he believed were being detained in the Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   Yes.  Practically every other day I went to Lukavica from Pale -

10     That's in eastern Sarajevo as it is now - where I was met by an APC, an

11     SFOR or UNPROFOR APC.  I don't know what it was called.  I think it was

12     SFOR.  So we would drive to Lukavica in our own car.  We would transfer

13     to the SFOR APC.  And there were two other APCs providing security.  We

14     would be in the middle, and we would go to attend talks at the Sarajevo

15     airport.  And the people from Sarajevo, from Bosnia and Herzegovina,

16     would arrive in Sarajevo in the same manner, and we would sit down in a

17     special room where we would hold our meetings, exchange lists, arrange

18     dates for the exchanges, and so on.

19        Q.   Did Mr. Colovic or Mr. Vanovac ever participate with you in these

20     kind of meetings with Mr. Masovic?

21        A.   No, Colovic never showed up.  Colovic had already left the

22     commission by that time.  And Mr. Vanovac was in Ilidza, so he was not in

23     touch with them at all.  And only I and Amor Masovic arranged those

24     meetings.  And when we met, we would agree on the next meeting.  Because

25     it was impossible, we didn't have any telephone lines, so we would agree

Page 12661

 1     to meet in two days at the same place.  And we had to arrange our

 2     meetings in that way because the telephone lines were down and there were

 3     no telefaxes so we had to bring the list to those meetings and exchange

 4     them to arrange for the exchanges.

 5        Q.   And related to the exchanges, can you tell us about the principle

 6     that's referred to as the all-for-all principle in connection with

 7     exchanges?

 8        A.   The principle all for all was agreed, but the other side did not

 9     respect it.  And this principle means that if, for instance, our side

10     has, let's say, 20 Muslims in captivity and the other side has 70 Serbs,

11     Serb prisoners, they should exchange -- they should be exchanged all for

12     all:  20 for 70.  So it's not ten for ten; it's all for all, regardless

13     of how many you have on one side you exchange them for all the prisoners

14     on the other side, regardless of how many there are.  Especially when it

15     comes to the civilians because it was more a question of the flow of the

16     population, the free movement of the population, allowing the people to

17     decide where they wanted to live, on what territory.

18        Q.   I -- I am sure you are correct that sometimes the other side did

19     not respect the all-for-all.  But are aware of occasions where the Serb

20     side did not respect the all-for-all principle in exchanges?

21        A.   On our side, what I did at the demarcation line near Sarajevo and

22     Pale it was not the case.  But I am -- cannot be certain about other

23     parts of Republika Srpska because I was not there.  Because I did not

24     have any contact with Banja Luka, with Doboj, Brod, or any other places

25     held by our people.  We did not have telephones, and it was only later

Page 12662

 1     that we were able to establish telephone lines and have telephone numbers

 2     and so on.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Did you know an individual named Filip Vukovic?

 4        A.   I never saw him.  I only know that this gentleman had been

 5     working in the socialist system before the war, and I heard of him in

 6     that capacity.  I never met him.  But, for a while, he was the president

 7     of the State Commission of Bosnia and Herzegovina for the Exchange of

 8     Prisoners.

 9        Q.   Let me -- and he was a Serb by ethnicity; correct?

10        A.   That's correct, unfortunately.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Could we have a look at Exhibit P1318.24.  This is

12     tab 14.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Markovic, this is a document that, some time in late

14     June 1992, there's a fax header on the B/C/S copy which has not been

15     noted in the English translation, but the date at the upper left of the

16     original B/C/S seems to be 26 June 1992.  Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And in the body of the document, it makes reference to something

19     having been received on the 22nd of June.  I will tell you - we'll look

20     at it in a minute - but I will tell you that this is from Filip Vukovic

21     whose stamp and signature appear on the last page.

22             It's to the Central Commission for Exchange of Persons.  Do you

23     recall ever seeing this document in 1992?

24        A.   No.  And this was not the fax message that I had in 1992.

25             Now, in the upper part, you can see where the fax was sent from.

Page 12663

 1     It was from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And the lower fax,

 2     in the left-hand corner, that's not my fax, where it says the Commission

 3     of the Exchange of Prisoners.  It might be the justice ministry fax.

 4     Well, you have a list.  You have my fax number and my telephone number

 5     and the telephone numbers of the other commissions.  I have never seen

 6     this document.

 7        Q.   The fax 785 025 is the one that you say might be a Ministry of

 8     Justice number in June of 1992?

 9        A.   Might be.  I am not saying that it is.  But since we were under

10     their auspices, it might well be their fax.  And I never saw this fax.

11     We didn't receive it.  And you can see the Brijesce, Ilidza of

12     Vrbanja Most are mentioned here.  These are parts that belong to

13     Mr. Vanovac.  Brijesce and Ilidza, they were under him.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And you'll see in that first paragraph that

15     Mr. Vukovic is complaining about a recent exchange, where he says that

16     his side released all the persons agreed, but of the agreed 45 on the

17     Serb side, only seven were released.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.  But it doesn't mean anything to me.

19        Q.   I understand --

20        A.   Because -- I'm sorry.  I really don't know who he wrote this to.

21     Because I have never seen this document.  Whether this is addressed to

22     Vanovac or what, the date, just a moment, it's the 12th ... 12th or the

23     18th of June.  No, I really don't have any idea what this document is all

24     about.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 12664

 1             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to the third page of the English and

 2     the second page of the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   There's a name I want to point out to you.

 4             You see Roman numeral IV:  Persons arrested in Ilidza on

 5     14 May whose exchange has been arranged.  And number one is a

 6     Bucan, Anes.  Anes Bucan.

 7             Do you see that name?

 8        A.   Yes, Anes Bucan, number one.  That's the only --

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... remember that name for a

10     little while.  I'm going show you another document in a minute, but I'm

11     going to finish with this one first.

12             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to the last -- if we could go to the

13     last page in English and B/C/S.

14        Q.   It makes a reference to an attachment with a list of prisoners

15     from 1 through 3.441.  Did you ever see such a list from Mr. Masovic or

16     anyone else on the other side in June of 1992?

17        A.   Yes [as interpreted].  I am unfamiliar with this figure.  It is a

18     huge number of people.  I have never seen this document.  And you can see

19     that Filip Vukovic signed it as the chairman of the state commission of

20     the federal commission, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So my

21     answer is no.

22        Q.   Okay.  At the top of the page in that big paragraph near the

23     bottom of it, he says - and the English actually starts on the preceding

24     page - he says:

25             "The attachment contains the list of imprisoned persons and

Page 12665

 1     detainees according to our records.  It is our opinion that once released

 2     the detainees should be sent to their places of residence, that is, to

 3     their domicile address, otherwise this would signify typical deportation,

 4     exile, and ethnic cleansing of the area.  Such persons should also be

 5     issued with appropriate certificates to prevent arrests for the second or

 6     third time."

 7             Were aware of this position being taken by Mr. Vukovic apparently

 8     on behalf of the other side, that if you release people only to send them

 9     out of the territory it was -- it would be viewed as deportation, exile,

10     and ethnic cleansing?

11             Was that something that was ever discussed in your presence in

12     1992?

13        A.   I would like to repeat that I have never seen this document by

14     Mr. Filip Vukovic.  And now, if you are asking me if it's deportation, no

15     it's not; it's just a freedom of movement of the citizens, because people

16     wanted to cross over to the territory where their fellow people from

17     their ethnic community lived.  But the problem is that they had to cross

18     our lines in order to enter the territory of the Federation.  And

19     sometimes it was impossible to reach the Federation lines because of the

20     lay of the land.  And that's not deportation; it's just allowing people

21     freedom of movement.  People who wanted to move.  I didn't want to live

22     in Sarajevo.  I had lived in Sarajevo for 34 years, yet I left it.  I

23     left everything behind and I moved to the territory of Republika Srpska.

24     Well, it was not exactly what you would call the freedom of movement.  I

25     barely got out alive.

Page 12666

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'm about to move to a different

 3     topic.  I know it's a minute or two early, but can we take the first

 4     break now?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  And we would resume in 20 minutes.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

10             MR. HANNIS:  While the witness is coming in, I understand we had

11     a correction to make about an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to

13     correct for the record 65 ter 1271 was assigned in error, number P1487.

14     And, instead, 65 ter 1271 becomes Exhibit P1501.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             MR. HANNIS:

19        Q.   Mr. Markovic, we've seen that in connection with the work of

20     exchanging prisoners and detained persons that although you were on the

21     Central Commission, which was created by the government, that exchanges

22     were being conducted by other -- other groups and other individuals, such

23     as regional or municipal commissions, and individuals like Mr. Mandic, as

24     minister of justice.

25             Were you aware that there were other -- other private or --or

Page 12667

 1     separate individuals that were trying to make their own arrangements for

 2     exchange of prisoners and detained persons?

 3        A.   Well, I didn't know them personally.  I mentioned Mr. Elez a

 4     little while ago.  I don't know what his position was.  I don't know.

 5     Perhaps he represented the Republika Srpska army.  But those commissions

 6     that were established at the municipal level, they were established by

 7     the War Staffs in the municipalities.  They were authorised to set up

 8     their own commissions in order to deal with the exchanges of prisoners,

 9     their prisoners for the detained Muslims.  And that was not under the

10     auspices of this official commission of the Republika Srpska government.

11        Q.   It seems to me that all of this made your job extra difficult,

12     because you're on the Central Commission for Exchange, but exchanges are

13     going on all the time without you being informed.

14             Did that make your job harder than it needed to be?

15        A.   Well, first of all, it was really a thankless job, working in the

16     commission where you have 20 or 30 persons who would come to see you

17     daily.  Their family members, their sons had been killed or massacred,

18     mutilated, gone missing in the fighting, and they wanted us to find at

19     least one body part for them to be able to bury.  And it was really

20     difficulty because we didn't have any means of communication, telephones,

21     a even it was impossible to use the roads to take -- to go to those

22     places in other parts of Republika Srpska where those commissions were

23     operating.

24        Q.   Let me show you Exhibit P1228; this is tab 11.

25             MR. HANNIS:  If I could, with the usher's help, hand a hard copy

Page 12668

 1     to the witness.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Markovic, this will be with you in a moment.  It's

 3     another transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation.

 4             And this one is dated 25 June 1992.  The primary speakers are

 5     Momcilo Krajisnik and Momcilo Mandic.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I don't recall, did you have a chance to look at this one during

 8     proofing?

 9        A.   As far as I can recall, you showed me this document yesterday

10     during the proofing session, which was why I was here yesterday.

11        Q.   If you follow on, you will see that Mr. Krajisnik is informing

12     Mr. Mandic about a Dusan Savic who is the brother of a Milo Savic and

13     that Dusan's been arrested and he's asking Mr. Mandic's help to see if

14     that person can be located on the other side and exchanged or released.

15             Do you recall that?

16        A.   Yesterday was the first time that I saw this document, when you

17     showed me, and I had never heard the name Dusan Savic before.

18        Q.   I understand, I understand.  I just want to confirm that that

19     conversation is about trying to locate and arrange the exchange or

20     release of a Dusan Savic.

21        A.   Well, you can see that Mr. Momcilo Mandic, as the justice

22     minister, did have this capability.  He was actually able to do that.  It

23     was probably a friend of theirs, and I had never met him.  I'm unfamiliar

24     with the name.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 12669

 1             I'd like to show you, related to that, another phone conversation

 2     the following day.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  And it's Exhibit P1134.

 4        Q.   If I could hand you a hard copy of that one.  I will trade you.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated] What is the tab number?

 6     Tab number, please?

 7             MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated] That is tab number 13.

 8        Q.   This one is the following day, the 26th of June, 1992, between

 9     Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Mandic.  On the second page of the English at the

10     bottom of the page, and for you I think it's the third page of the B/C/S,

11     Mr. Krajisnik is following up and asking about:

12             "Let me also ask you, what about this Savic, Milos, since it's

13     his brother?"

14             And his brother, as we saw before, is Dusan.

15             And Mr. Mandic says:

16             "President, I put it on the list.  The first next exchange and it

17     will be finished."

18             When you were working as a member of the exchange commission, did

19     you ever see any list from Mr. Mandic of persons to be exchanged?

20        A.   No.  I really did not see that at all.  And I never actually

21     received it.  There this was not addressed to me.  Because this was

22     absolutely done bypassing the official commission.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And if you follow on immediately from that part - and

24     it's page 3 of the English - you see that Mr. Mandic and Mr. Krajisnik

25     have some discussion about Filip Vukovic and his role on the

Page 12670

 1     exchange commission on the other side and his -- his claim that what the

 2     Serbs were doing in letting the women and children go to Vrbanja was

 3     ethnic cleansing.

 4             Do you see that?

 5        A.   The fact that they were all released across -- to go across the

 6     Vrbanja Most bridge, which was in the centre of the city itself in the

 7     immediate vicinity of the city centre, I -- that was just the freedom of

 8     movement of population.  They could decide where they wanted to live.

 9     Because they were a problem to us, if I may put it that way, and they

10     were also a problem to the territory where they were heading to.

11             So we were trying to solve our problem but in a normal, humane

12     way.

13        Q.   Okay.  I understand.  Let me show you, next, Exhibit P1157.  This

14     is tab 15.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Again, if could I have the usher's help.

16        Q.   One more intercepted telephone conversation.  And this one,

17     Mr. Markovic, is dated the 1st of July.  This time it's between

18     Mr. Mandic and Radovan Karadzic.

19             And let me see if I can find the right page.

20             Do you see where Mr. Mandic informs that they're evacuating some

21     Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija?

22        A.   Sokolovic.

23        Q.   Ah, okay.  Yes.  About five lines down below that, Mr. Mandic

24     says:

25             "We have many on the list.  There are 300 people from Hadzici,

Page 12671

 1     Muslims who have been kept here for seven days.  No one has inquired

 2     about them.  No one seems to care.  I don't know what to do."

 3             And then he goes on to say:

 4             "We'll try to exchange them for people from Hrasnica."

 5        A.   Yes, I see that.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   Hrasnica is a part of Sarajevo, but it's on the outskirts.  There

 8     were large industrial facilities there, and many Serbs were employed in

 9     Hrasnica but also a large number of Muslims.  At the very outset when the

10     war broke out, the Muslims managed to take Hrasnica and

11     Sokolovic Kolonija and then they tried to exchange those people.  I don't

12     know about this conversation.  And how could I, because it's a

13     conversation between the prime minister and the minister of justice, and

14     it's an intercept.  So how could I know about it?

15        Q.   I understand.  Your answer was translated as "a conversation

16     between the prime minister and the minister of justice."  I -- perhaps

17     you were misinterpreted, but Mr. Karadzic was the president of the

18     Presidency; correct?

19        A.   The president of the republic, yes.  The Radovan Karadzic, the

20     president of the republic.

21        Q.   I just wanted to make sure that the transcript was correct.

22     Thank you.

23             And then Mr. Karadzic goes on and was asking Mr. Mandic if he had

24     found a particular Croat in Kula, and Mr. Mandic informs him that all the

25     Croats have already been exchanged.

Page 12672

 1             Were you involved in any exchanges of Croats, or only Muslims?

 2        A.   Only Muslims.  On the territory of Sarajevo, there was a very

 3     small percentage of Croats, and now they amount to about 1 per cent.

 4        Q.   Thank you for that.  I think I have one more telephone

 5     conversation I want to show you.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  And, again, if could I have the usher's help.  This

 7     is Exhibit P1229, and it's tab 31.

 8        Q.   This was dated the 12th of August, 1992.  Let me start by asking

 9     you if you knew a person by the name of Fahrija Karkin.

10        A.   I didn't know him personally.  I saw him on television.  But

11     before the fighting broke out in Sarajevo, I heard that he was one of the

12     better lawyers.  And I think that in these criminal proceedings he was

13     co-counsel for Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

14        Q.   And Mirko Krajisnik; do you know who he was?

15        A.   I've heard of him.  I know he's Momcilo Krajisnik's brother.  But

16     I don't know him personally.  I have heard of him.  And I have heard that

17     he is Momcilo Krajisnik's brother.

18        Q.   And Mr. Karkin, what -- what ethnicity was he; if you know?

19        A.   Muslim.  Then they were called Muslims; now they are called

20     Bosniaks again.

21        Q.   You will see there's a long decision between Mirko Krajisnik and

22     Mr. Karkin about an exchange they're trying to arrange.  On page 2 of the

23     English and page -- I believe it's also page 2 of your B/C/S, yes.  One

24     of the persons to be included in this exchange is Dusan Savic.

25             Do you remember that name we saw earlier in the phone

Page 12673

 1     conversation between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Krajisnik --

 2     Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik?

 3             Do you recall that?

 4        A.   I -- I'm not familiar with this document.  Even the names

 5     mentioned here, Kokot, Grujic, Skobalj, are names I have never heard

 6     before.

 7        Q.   I understand.  But you see the name Dusan Savic near the bottom

 8     of page 2 in the B/C/S as one of the persons being discussed for this

 9     exchange that Mr. Mirko Krajisnik and Mr. Karkin are trying to arrange?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And, again, I take it that this is -- this is not an exchange

12     that you were informed about or involved in, in your role as member of

13     the Central Exchange Commission?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   What -- what position, if any, did Mirko Krajisnik have in -- in

16     the government or the police or the Ministry of Justice in

17     August of 1992; if you know?

18        A.   Mirko Krajisnik?

19        Q.   Yes.  Did he hold any position?

20        A.   Momcilo and his brother, yes, he was the president of the

21     Assembly.  But Mirko Krajisnik, as far as I know, was never a member of

22     the government or held any official post.  I think he was engaged in

23     private business, a private enterprise.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Next I want to show you Exhibit P1475.

25             MR. HANNIS:  This is tab number 35.

Page 12674

 1        Q.   This is just a short one-page document, Mr. Markovic, and we'll

 2     put it up on the screen for you.

 3        A.   Very well.

 4        Q.   This is dated the 30th of August, 1992.  It appears to be from

 5     the minister Mico Stanisic with a stamp and signature, addressed to the

 6     administration of the Kula Prison, Ministry of Justice, Commission for

 7     Exchange of Detainees.  And it says:

 8             "We hereby ask you to ensure the release of the prisoner

 9     Anes Bucan."

10             Do you remember that name we saw before in the 26th June --

11        A.   The name was mentioned just a while ago, yes.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... that was in the

13     26th June document from Filip Vukovic.  In --

14        A.   Yes, I remember.

15        Q.   In August 1992, you were still working for the

16     Exchange Commission.  Did Minister Stanisic know that you were working

17     for this Exchange Commission from May 1992 throughout the rest of the

18     year?  Was he aware of that?

19        A.   I think he knew I worked in that commission but not the period of

20  time that I worked in it.  Because we happened to run into each other on

21  two occasions where I had my office, and he asked me, How are the exchanges

22  going? Can you reach agreement with them? And I simply told him that they

23  were refusing to respect the lists we had agreed on at the meetings.  And he

24  gave me some instructions, that the prisoners should be treated in line with

25  the Geneva Conventions, that especially women and young children were not to

Page 12675

 1  be maltreated, and that exchanges should be carried out in accordance with

 2  the Geneva Conventions, and that their accommodation should be in compliance

 3  wherever possible, even though it all came under the Ministry of Justice and

 4  the VRS.  And if I may say, where Mico Stanisic, the minister of the

 5  interior, is writing to the management of the Kula Prison, the Ministry of

 6  Justice, and he says: please allow the prisoners to be released.  Look at

 7  that level, the rank; the minister, in fact, is not ordering the prison

 8  warden, or demanding and requesting, but asking him, pleading with him. He

 9  says, please allow prisoner Anes Bucan to be released and exchanged for

10  three Serb families, which shows that he was not competent, he actually

11  wasn’t.  Because had the minister of the interior been competent, he would

12  have had it done, absolutely.  But he, the minister, was actually asking the

13  prison warden, someone who was far below him in rank, for the exchange to

14  take place.  I think this makes everything clear.

15  Q.  Well, I'm --

16  MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm really sorry.  The part of the answer which

17  witness gave on page 40 when he was talking to Mr. Stanisic was not

18  recorded.  The last part of the answer.  Maybe the witness was talking

19  too fast and the interpreters were not able to --

20  JUDGE HARHOFF:  And, Mr. Hannis, where are we heading with all of this?

21  MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, that's something I would rather not

22  discuss in front of the witness, if -- if we need to have the discussion.

23  Maybe I can ask him a few additional questions, and you'll see.

24                          [Trial Chamber confers]

25  JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Hannis, carry on for the moment, but see if you can --

Page 12676

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF: -- help the Court.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  As far as Mr. Zecevic's point, I would simply ask

 4     him to try and address it on cross-examination, because that was such a

 5     long answer, I don't know where to begin to try and find what was

 6     omitted.  And, frankly, it was non-responsive -- much of it was

 7     non-responsive to my specific question.

 8        Q.   Mr. Markovic --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  One of the points which Mr. Zecevic made which bears

10     repeating is -- and I'm speaking -- I would address the witness directly.

11             Please, sir, bear in mind that your evidence has to be

12     interpreted so that you -- you need to remind yourself to slow down in

13     giving your answers so that we have an accurate record of what you intend

14     to convey.

15             Thank you.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for telling

18     me this.

19             MR. HANNIS:

20        Q.   Mr. Markovic, I take it that Minister Stanisic didn't speak to

21     you as a member of the commission about Anes Bucan, and didn't involve

22     you in trying to facilitate this proposed exchange?

23        A.   No, he never mentioned that name to me.  We spoke only about the

24     way exchanges were being carried out and so on.  But no names were

25     mentioned by him.

Page 12677

 1        Q.   Even though he knew you were a member of the Exchange Commission

 2     and that you were an employee of the MUP, his ministry.  Wouldn't it seem

 3     logical that he would speak to you about such a matter?

 4        A.   Well, probably it would seem logical, but he had already sent

 5     that document to the Ministry of Justice which was supposed to deliver it

 6     to me, and the commission was supposed to deal with it further.  But I

 7     never received this document from the Ministry of Justice, the document

 8     signed by Minister Stanisic.

 9        Q.   And we saw from the 26th June fax from Mr. Vukovic that

10     Anes Bucan had been arrested on 14th of May.  So apparently by the end of

11     August he is still being held, which is much more than the three days;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes, not more than three days.  But he was in Kula Prison.  It

14     was an official prison before the war, during the war, and after the war.

15     It's still in existence.  Whether Anes Bucan was there as a prisoner of

16     war or as a person suspected of committing a serious crime and awaiting

17     trial, that I don't know.

18        Q.   Fair enough.  Thank you.  I'd like to show you, next,

19     Exhibit P192, which is at tab 26.

20             This is a document dated the 8th of August, 1992.  It's from the

21     deputy minister for police affairs, Tomo Kovac, addressed to the

22     president of the Republic and to the prime minister.

23             Had you ever seen this document before you -- you came for

24     proofing?

25        A.   No, I had never seen this document before.

Page 12678

 1        Q.   You'll see on the first page, the second paragraph, the second

 2     sentence, Mr. Kovac says:

 3             "There are cases where MUP members accept or in some cases even

 4     take part in capturing people in the war zones.  After that, they arrange

 5     accommodation for them and a way of life, they determine the duration of

 6     their detention and their entire destiny."

 7             Were you aware of this fact that is purported to be by Mr. Kovac

 8     about MUP's involvement in capturing or accepting some of the people

 9     captured in war zones?

10        A.   If the members of the MUP were in the war areas, they were under

11     the authority of the Army of Republika Srpska.  When they became attached

12     to the army, they were under the authority of the Army of

13     Republika Srpska, and then they were soldiers, not policemen, and the

14     military controlled them.  Everything was under military control.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   The moment they came to be in the area where there was combat.

17        Q.   I think apart from your -- your visit to the primary school

18     gymnasium in Pale in mid-May in connection with the 400 men from

19     Bratunac, I understand --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- you did not visit any other camps or detention facilities

22     during 1992; is that correct?

23        A.   In late October, as I told you, and we'll come to that, I visited

24     the camp in Manjaca, when I tried to organise an exchange at a place

25     called Zitnic, near Sibenik.  But we'll talk about that later.

Page 12679

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know Slobodan Avlijas in 1992?

 2        A.   I met Mr. Avlijas on the road to Banja Luka where we were

 3     supposed to have a meeting in the Bosna Hotel in connection with the

 4     exchange of those people who were in the camp at Manjaca.  We happened to

 5     meet on the road while we were waiting in line to pass through an area

 6     that was constantly under fire from the Muslim forces, especially sniper

 7     fire.

 8        Q.   And do you recall approximately when that was, what month in

 9     1992?

10        A.   I know it was in the second half of October.  It may have been

11     the 20th or the 22nd of October, 1992.  We were supposed to meet in hotel

12     Bosna, to discuss the further work of the commission, of the

13     then-ARK Krajina, concerning the exchange of war prisoners.

14        Q.   Was he ever appointed a member or did he ever do any work with

15     your exchange commission?

16        A.   He was an employee of the Ministry of Justice, although, for a

17     long time -- although he had held that post for a long time and knew many

18     people, Mr. Momcilo Mandic proposed that he go with me and the commission

19     from Banja Luka to conduct that exchange.

20        Q.   That Mr. Avlijas go with you as a -- as a commissioner on the

21     Central Exchange Commission?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   On behalf of the Ministry of Justice.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know a couple of inspectors at the MUP

Page 12680

 1     in 1992, named Goran Saric and Mirko Erkic.  Did you know either one of

 2     those?

 3        A.   Goran Saric.  Maybe it's Saric with an S, yes.  I did know him,

 4     yes.  And I also knew Mr. Mirko Erkic who had worked in the Ministry of

 5     the Interior of ex-Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war.

 6        Q.   If I could show you, briefly, a document.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  It's P193.  It's at tab 27.

 8        Q.   This is -- I don't know if you've seen this one before,

 9     Mr. Markovic.  It's a document dated the 9th of August, 1992, and signed

10     by the prime minister -- or for the prime minister by the deputy prime

11     minister, Mr. Dubojevic [phoen].  And it's entitled:

12             "A Decision on Forming Commissions for Visits to Collective

13     Centres and Other Facilities for Prisoners."

14             And you'll see that Mr. Avlijas, Mr. Saric, Mr. Erkic, and a

15     Vojin Lale were named to commissions to visit and inquire into the status

16     of persons situated in those facilities.

17             Did you know about that?  And this 9th of August is just a few

18     days after there was a big international furor after some international

19     reports went and took pictures at Manjaca, Omarska.  Do you recall that?

20        A.   This is the first time I've seen this decision on forming

21     commissions for visits to collective centres.  These centres and prisons

22     were now under the Ministry of Justice.  I know these people, but I never

23     knew of the existence of this commission.

24        Q.   Were you aware of the -- the public outcry in the international

25     press that took place a few days before this?

Page 12681

 1        A.   We heard something about it.  There were rumours.  We were in the

 2     back of beyond as far as communications go.  But it had to do with the

 3     camp at Manjaca [as interpreted] and that image that was doctored,

 4     showing this man behind the wire.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you, Were you aware that there were still --

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise.  It's line 14 in transcript.  It

 7     said "Manjaca," but I think witness said another name.  It's Manjaca in

 8     line 14.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  All right.

10             MR. PANTELIC:  It should be corrected, yes.

11             MR. HANNIS:  I see that.

12        Q.   Witness, did you say something other than Manjaca?

13        A.   You mean in my last answer?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   I said that had to do with that camp, I think it was Omarska,

16     where you see a thin person behind a wire and the others around him are

17     walking around, sitting down, and this was represented as a terrible camp

18     of the persons lounging around and so on.

19        Q.   Okay.  Were you aware that as late as middle of November, 1992,

20     there apparently were still some illegal camps and assembly centres in

21     the Republika Srpska?  Did you know about that?

22        A.   I knew that there were camps on the other side, even private

23     camps in houses established by Muslims.

24        Q.   That's not my question.  My question is:  Were you aware there

25     were apparently still some illegal camps and assembly centres in the

Page 12682

 1     Republika Srpska as late as the middle of November 1992?

 2             Did you know about that?

 3        A.   No.  I knew about the legal camps - the collection centres,

 4     better to say - Manjaca, Kula, and Bileca, I think.

 5             As for the legal ones, those were the three.  I didn't know about

 6     any illegal camps, and I personally doubt the existence of illegal camps.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Would the minister of justice be in a better position in

 8     November 1992 than you to know about whether such illegal camps and

 9     assembly centres existed?  Would Mr. Mandic be in a better position?

10        A.   Well, absolutely, yes, because all the camps were under his

11     ministry.  So he would have known.  Because they were all under the

12     Ministry of Justice.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14        A.   They had powers over them.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let me show you one last exhibit, Mr. Markovic.

16             MR. HANNIS:  It's P253.  It's at tab 45.

17        Q.   And I can give you a hard copy with help from the usher.

18             Coming to you in a minute, Mr. Markovic, is this exhibit.  It's

19     dated 17 November 1992, and it's the minutes of the 57th Session of the

20     RS Government which had been held on 27 October.  So I guess my question

21     should be the end of October instead of the 17th of November.

22             If you can turn to page 6 in the B/C/S, and it's page 6 of the

23     English as well.  I want to ask you about item number 22, Momcilo Mandic,

24     ministry of judiciary and administration, has informed the government on

25     the situation in Republika Srpska camps and assembly centres.

Page 12683

 1              "It is concluded that the existing illegal camps and assembly

 2     centres are to be dissolved as soon as possible."

 3             The way I read that means that at the time Mr. Mandic is saying

 4     this on, I guess, the 27th of October - I'm sorry, I misspoke before -

 5     there were still existing illegal camps and assembly centres in the

 6     Republika Srpska.  Would you agree?

 7        A.   I was not aware of them.  And I have just said that only

 8     Justice Minister Momcilo Mandic was in the position to know.  I myself

 9     did not know about them.  Because all the camps, all the prisons were

10     under the control and within the remit of the justice ministry.

11        Q.   But when you were doing your work as a member of the commission

12     and meeting with Mr. Masovic, he gave you a list of non-Serbs detained in

13     Republika Srpska.  Did he not indicate to you the suspected locations of

14     where some of these detained persons were so you could look for them?

15        A.   He spoke about the locations, but Kula was mentioned most often.

16     And we asked him to effect the exchange of prisoners from the military

17     barracks, Viktor Bubanj and the central prison in Sarajevo, and today the

18     barracks houses the supreme court, unfortunately.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Markovic.  I don't have any other questions for

20     you at this time.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Markovic, in addition to the caution that I

22     would have given you earlier about slowing down, inasmuch as the

23     cross-examination would be conducted by counsel who speaks the same

24     language that you do, please remember to allow for a gap between the

25     question to be completed by counsel and before you attempt to answer.

Page 12684

 1     Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will try and do my best.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please, Mr. Cvijetic.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Markovic.

 7        A.   Good morning, sir.

 8        Q.   Now I will try first follow the line of questioning pursued by my

 9     learned friend from the Prosecution, and I will start with the same topic

10     as he did.  Right at the beginning, the Prosecutor asked you when and why

11     you left the joint MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and if I'm not mistaken

12     you said that on 17th April, 1992, you had arrived in Vrace and that

13     before you arrived there, the interethnic relations in the joint MUP of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina had already been disrupted and this had created an

15     atmosphere of intolerance in which it was impossible to work together

16     side by side?  Did I paraphrase you correctly?

17        A.   Yes, that's precisely what I said.  Not that the relations were

18     disturbed, but they were outside of the bounds of any kind of normal

19     behaviour.  Threats, insults, cursing, even physical assaults on us,

20     people from other ethnic communities who worked in the same ministry.

21        Q.   Well, it's stopped.  Very well.  Let me show you a document.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P650.  It's

23     an exhibit.  I would like it to be shown to the witness.

24        Q.   Mr. Markovic, this is a document -- well, you can see from its

25     title what it is all about.  These are statements by policemen of Muslim

Page 12685

 1     nationalities about their removal from the Pale and Sokolac Public

 2     Security Stations.

 3             And now I would like us to go on to the next page so that we can

 4     see what this is all about.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And I would like the second

 6     paragraph to be zoomed in.

 7        Q.   Mr. Markovic, could you please read this.  And then I will have

 8     some questions for you.

 9             Have you read it?

10        A.   Just a moment, please.

11             Yes.

12        Q.   You can see, at the end of this paragraph, members of the station

13     of Muslim ethnicity claim that the station chief told them that the fact

14     that they had been removed from their posts was a counter-measure in

15     response to what had happened to the Serb police officers in the police

16     station in the Stari Grad municipality in Sarajevo.

17             So now let me ask you, Are aware of this incident at Pale?  And

18     then we will move on to the Stari Grad Police Station.  So were you aware

19     of this incident in Pale?  Just wait a little bit before answering.

20        A.   Sir, I would not call this an incident.  The chief of the public

21     security station at Pale, Mr. Malko Koroman, wanted, at all costs, to

22     keep the Muslims working in the station.  But he also wanted the Serb

23     policemen to return to their jobs in the Stari Grad Police Station.  He

24     insisted on it.  I spoke to the public security station commander in

25     Pale, a Muslim, whose name was Malik Krivic.  He was a colleague of mine;

Page 12686

 1     I had worked with him before.  He told me that Malko had asked him --

 2     Malko Koroman had asked him not to come to Pale anymore because of his

 3     personal safety but that he would continue receiving his salary as if he

 4     had continued working.  This is what Malik Krivic, the commander of the

 5     police station at Pale, told me at that time.

 6        Q.   Now, did Mr. Krivic tell you that Mr. Koroman had told him what

 7     they say here, that this was a counter-measure in response to what

 8     happened at the Stari Grad Police Staying and that they would be able to

 9     go back to their jobs if the Serbs would return to their jobs in

10     Stari Grad?

11        A.   Well, he didn't tell me that in so many words, but that's how I

12     interpreted that.  In the Stari Grad Police Station where I started my

13     police career in 1987 as the deputy police commander, there was a single

14     Serb working who remained working there.  And then after a few days,

15     Ismet Dahic, the commander of the Stari Grad Police Station, sent him

16     home, instructing him not to come back to his job anymore, because from

17     that time on it was to be and it was 100 per cent ethnically pure Muslim.

18        Q.   Could you please repeat the name of the commander who sent him

19     home because it was not in the record?

20        A.   It was the commander of the public security station in Stari Grad

21     in Sarajevo.  His name was Ismet Dahic.  And the chief of the station was

22     Enes Bezdrop.

23        Q.   They were both Muslims; is that so?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to look at

Page 12687

 1     document 1D00-2736.

 2        Q.   Mr. Markovic, I will not ask you to read this document.  Let me

 3     just read whether you are familiar with this letter sent by the members

 4     of the Stari Grad Public Security Station of Serb ethnicity.

 5             Have you ever seen it before?

 6        A.   Yes.  I actually read it myself in early March of 1992, that's

 7     the date indicated here, when, in the Security Services Centre, I

 8     received a visit from the ethnic Serbs working in that station.  And as a

 9     former officer in charge of that station, I was asked to give them my

10     opinion as to what they should do, because they couldn't go on going to

11     work because of the terrible insults they received on a daily basis from

12     their erstwhile colleagues; their colleagues, ethnic Muslims.

13        Q.   In this letter, they list all the problems that they face in

14     their work, and you can see here that they speak about the disproportion

15     in the quantity of arms, the involvement -- interference of the

16     Green Berets in the work of the station, and a number of irregularities

17     that actually pushed them to the fringe, pushed those ethnic Serbs on the

18     fringe, that they could no longer work properly in this police station.

19     And in the end - and let us now look at the last page of this

20     document - they say that they refused to work there anymore, and they

21     placed themselves at the disposal of the Sarajevo SUP, the Secretariat of

22     the Interior.  And that is still the joint SUP.

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, just for the record, I think this one is

25     already an exhibit, and we should just indicate it is Exhibit 1D132, I

Page 12688

 1     believe.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.  I neglected to

 3     mention that this is in fact 1D132.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Markovic, just tell me, What did you do?  What did you

 5     tell your colleagues?  Obviously you knew them.

 6        A.   Yes.  These were all employees who worked under me.

 7        Q.   So what did you tell them?

 8        A.   I made a recommendation to them that they should try and

 9     persevere, because it was still possible at that time that with some

10     effort on the part of our leaders, the people in charge, for the joint

11     MUP to continue in existence, just like as the joint Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina.

13        Q.   Now let us just move on to page where the signatures are so that

14     you can confirm whether these are, indeed, those people that you knew.

15     Do you recognise their signatures?

16             So do you recognise the signatures?

17        A.   Yes, definitely.  Definitely.

18             Number 1 is Cedo Nogo.

19        Q.   Well, you don't have to go through them.  Just tell us whether

20     you recognise them.

21        A.   Yes, each and every one.

22        Q.   So you will agree that this event in the Stari Grad Police

23     Station preceded the event at Pale; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, absolutely.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We will no longer be needing this document.  And now

Page 12689

 1     let us move on to the topic which actually brought you here today.

 2             When my colleague from the Prosecution asked you a question, you

 3     said that you received your salary throughout this time-period from the

 4     Ministry of the Interior, and you explained by saying that in essence

 5     nobody knew how long this commission would work.  All the expectations

 6     were that it would be in existence for a very short time.

 7        A.   Yes, precisely.  Nobody had any idea how long this commission

 8     would continue working and how long this whole madness - it's the only

 9     way to describe it - would last.  I received my salary from the

10     Ministry of the Interior as an inspector in a police department because

11     the Ministry of the Interior is an integral part of the government, and

12     all the ministries are paid for from the government budget.

13        Q.   Since it is the state budget, then there was no need for this

14     commission of yours to be established as a professional commission

15     because it was paid from the same treasury; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, absolutely.

17        Q.   But I am now interested in the second part that you have failed

18     to explain for us.

19             I am interested in your status, in terms of the organisation, the

20     responsibilities, and whom did you report in your work.  Whom were you

21     accountable to for your work?  That's what you did not explain.

22        A.   As for my work and the work of the entire commission, since I was

23     there on my own for most of the time, I reported solely to the prime

24     minister who had appointed me to that position by his decision.

25        Q.   In that period while you worked in the commission, were you

Page 12690

 1     duty-bound to file any formal or informal reports to the

 2     Ministry of the Interior about the work of the commission?

 3        A.   No.  As I've already explained, my only obligation was to submit

 4     reports to the prime minister through the justice ministry.

 5        Q.   My colleague Mr. Zecevic intervened at one point, and perhaps

 6     this is the right time to -- for you to complete your answer.  You did,

 7     but it was not recorded in the transcript.

 8             You said that you met Minister Stanisic a couple of times and --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that he only wanted to know about the work of your commission

11     and that he orally conveyed to you some suggestions and also indicated to

12     you that you were duty-bound to comply with the Geneva Conventions and

13     other international obligations.  I heard you say "although this was in

14     effect under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice."  Is that what

15     you said?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the army.  That's what you said.

18             So could you please explain what you meant?

19        A.   Mr. Stanisic told me that, because I was a representative of the

20     ministry, to make sure that I do everything in line with the law.  But

21     everything was under the jurisdiction of the justice of defence -- or,

22     rather, of the Ministry of Justice, because the army did a large number

23     of exchanges, and it set up its own commission which was headed by

24     Dragan Bulajic, Captain Bulajic.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, the speakers are kindly

Page 12691

 1     asked to speak one at a time.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You were asked whether you received any instructions regarding

 4     your work, and, if so, who gave you those instructions, and you answered

 5     that question.  But now I would like us to go back to this decision

 6     appointing your commission.  If we could look at the contents of this

 7     document.  You only dealt with the composition, but I'm interested in the

 8     bottom part of this decision.

 9             I do apologise.  I'm looking for this document.  It's a

10     Prosecution Exhibit.  I can't seem to be able to find it here in this

11     binder.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps my colleague Mr. Hannis

13     might assist me here.

14             P228 I'm told.  Correction, 427.7.

15             MR. HANNIS:  And do you need a hard copy?

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There's no need.  I just want to

17     have it on our screen.  So if you could assist me with the number of the

18     exhibit.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the decision appointing

20     members of the commission?  Is that what you mean?

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, this is not the right

22     document.  Could you please just give me the exhibit number.  The

23     decision appointing the commission for the exchange.

24             MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... the 1992

25     decision to form a Central Commission?  It's P179.18.  I have a hard

Page 12692

 1     copy.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 3             Well, perhaps we could give the hard copy to the witness, and the

 4     rest of us will be able to follow it on our screens.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   It's the photo copy.  We said it was not a very good quality, but

 8     if you would care to look at the bottom part of this document below the

 9     composition.  It appears that when your commission was established some

10     general instructions for its work were already provided.  You can see

11     that the exchanges on the principle all for all is mentioned here.  That

12     is what you told us, complying with security requirements, and so on.

13             So you will agree with me that in the decision itself the

14     government already gave you some initial instructions?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   You were shown another document signed by Mr. Tomo Kovac, if I'm

17     not mistaken.  And we will have to go back to that document.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And that is P192.

19        Q.   You remember that document?  You commented on a part shown to you

20     by the Prosecutor.  However, the gist of this document can be seen in the

21     text that follows.  Look at paragraph 3, please.  And then go on reading

22     until you reach the end of the document.  And after that we will comment

23     on it.

24             Mr. Kovac is suggesting to the president of the republic and the

25     prime minister, the top government officials, that the basic problem be

Page 12693

 1     solved, which is categorising persons so that it can be clearly defined

 2     who is in charge of what category.

 3             In paragraph 3, he discusses the category of prisoners of war and

 4     concludes that the military or civilian judiciary should be in charge of

 5     them.  Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that this category did exist and that the competence

 8     mentioned by him, the competency was in fact the way he describes it?

 9     I'm referring to prisoners of war, military prisoners.

10        A.   I absolutely agree.  Because prisoners of war --

11             MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honours,

12     but my English translation at paragraph 3 says:

13             "We mean civilians and that category of prisoners of war ..."

14             So paragraph 3 also seems to be talking about civilians.  And

15     unless the original says something different in Serbian, I'd like that

16     clarified on the record.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Please read the introductory part.  So these are prisoners of war

19     who have committed crimes against the civilian population.  That, at

20     least, is clear.

21             Have you seen this?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... just read out

Page 12694

 1     the Serbian part?  Because the way Mr. Cvijetic is phrasing it doesn't

 2     seem to comply with what I read in the English translation.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Please read this whole passage.

 5        A.   "A second problem, a much more important problem in the field is

 6     that people are not properly categorised in the facilities or collection

 7     centres.  We mean prisoners of war, persons who committed crimes, and the

 8     civilian population.  In the first category, prisoners of war, when it

 9     comes to their physical integrity, food, hygiene, and so on, after they

10     are identified exclusive" --

11        Q.   Mr. Markovic, we'll come to that.  So I take note of my learned

12     friend's intervention.

13             So Mr. Kovac is discussing three categories.  The first category

14     are military prisoners of war.  And in this sentence he says that

15     military or civilians organs of the judiciary have authority over those.

16             In the next passage, he discusses the second category.  And these

17     are persons who have committed crimes.  And he says that the judiciary

18     and the police organs have authority over them.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And then let's move on to page 3,

20     please.  Next page.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, it's a little past time for the usual

22     break.  Would it be convenient to stop at this point and resume?  Yes.

23     We will do that.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 12695

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  You may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Mr. Markovic, on the last page of this document, Mr. Kovac deals

 8     with the third category of persons, that is, the civilian population.

 9     And you can see that he says here that as regards the accommodation of

10     these persons, it's charities, NGOs that have to deal with these persons,

11     and the local authorities, that they have to be provided with the minimum

12     conditions.  And that if they want to leave the area, they should be able

13     to do so.  I think you said that one of the main reasons why your

14     commission was established was to ensure the free movement of civilians.

15     Am I right?

16        A.   Yes, you're quite right.  That was one of the tasks of the

17     commission.

18        Q.   In the next passage, Mr. Kovac goes on to put forward his

19     opinion, that all these categorise of persons should be treated according

20     to the requirements of the international institutions, regardless of the

21     manner in which the opposite side treats the Serbian population.

22             I think you spoke about this, that you said that your work was

23     based on humanitarian principles and international law.  Is that right?

24        A.   Yes, you're quite right.  In this document, in the first

25     paragraph, the second sentence, it says that civilians can only be given

Page 12696

 1     refugee status.  They are not prisoners of war.

 2        Q.   The last thing to which I wish to draw your attention in this

 3     document is on page 1.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can we please go back to

 5     page 1.

 6        Q.   Mr. Markovic, we see that Mr. Kovac's observations contained in

 7     this document were forwarded to the president of the Serbian Republic of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the prime minister of the Serb Republic of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10             You will agree with me that the president of Republika Srpska as

11     the commander-in-chief is authorised to deal with all these categorise of

12     persons, but especially as the commander-in-chief he is authorised to

13     deal with the categorise of prisoners of war and issues of their

14     accommodation and treatment, and that this document was send to the right

15     address, as far as this area is concerned.  Am I right?

16        A.   Yes, you're quite right, sir.  Because if anyone held the status,

17     it was the president of the republic.  So the document was really sent to

18     the right people:  The president of the republic, and the prime minister.

19        Q.   You have anticipated the second part of my question.  The

20     government was also authorised to deal with all the categorise of persons

21     mentioned here and all these issues, as shown by the establishment of

22     your commission by the government.  Is that right?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.  The government implemented its orders through

24     the Ministry of Justice, which was, in a manner of speaking, superior to

25     this commission.  It was its superior.

Page 12697

 1        Q.   Very well.  I have now dealt with the evidence put to you by my

 2     learned friend.

 3             Now I'll show you several exhibits and documents dealing with

 4     these three categories of persons and the way they were taken carry of

 5     and accommodated in certain facilities.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have on the screen

 7     65 ter 1396, please.

 8        Q.   Mr. Markovic, this is a decision on the establishment of

 9     penitentiary-re-education institutions in the territory of the

10     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And on page 2 -- can we go on to

12     page 2 so we can see who issued this decision.  Let's see the signature

13     at the bottom of the page.

14        Q.   The then-acting -- those acting for the president, Presidency

15     members, Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic?

16             MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... think this is an

17     exhibit already in evidence.  It's 1D164.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I omitted to

19     mention this.  It is, in fact, 1D164.

20        Q.   Mr. Markovic, you, as a policeman, were familiar with the fact

21     that, on the territory of Republika Srpska there are penitentiary

22     re-education facilities which existed before the war, during the war, and

23     which still exist today, after the war?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   We will have to divide them into two subcategories, and I will

Page 12698

 1     ask you to confirm what I say.

 2             In the seat of every district court, there was and still is a

 3     district prison which has a remand unit where persons on trial are

 4     inmates.  And then there is another part where persons who have been

 5     sentenced to a prison sentence, not very high prison sentences, serve

 6     their sentence.

 7             Are aware of this?

 8        A.   Yes, of course.  This principle existed before the war, even

 9     during the war, and it still exists.  All district courts have a district

10     prison with these two categories of inmates that you mentioned.

11        Q.   You should be aware that the conditions and the way re --

12     detention on remand or the serving of prison sentences are implemented

13     are under the authority of the president of the district court.

14             Are you aware of this?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The second subcategory of these institutions are penitentiary

17     re-education organisations where persons sentenced to long prison

18     sentences serve their sentence; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.  And the wardens and their deputies are

20     appointed exclusively by the minister of justice.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter said "minister."

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The Ministry of Justice deal with both types of institutions,

24     district prisons and penitentiary re-education organisations, and within

25     the Ministry of Justice there is even an administrative officer dealing

Page 12699

 1     exclusively with these issues.  He is in charge -- he or she is in charge

 2     of implementing prison sentences.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  I think it's actually not an administrative officer but an

 4     assistant minister for the execution of sanctions, or prison sentences.

 5        Q.   Yes, you are right; I was wrong.

 6             And let's clarify this.  Both types of institutions have their

 7     own security service, the uniformed and armed prison police; is that

 8     right?  Or, rather, prison guards, to be more precise.

 9        A.   That's correct.  They wear blue uniforms, like the police, but

10     they have different insignia on their sleeves.  On these insignias, it

11     says "judiciary police" or the name of the institution in which they

12     work.

13        Q.   Very well.  I'll move on to a specific institution of this type.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So let's look at 1D03-4449.

15        Q.   Mr. Markovic, you are certainly aware of the fact that one of

16     these penal and correctional institutions was Butmir.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Are you aware that the remand prison or prison in Vogosca was, in

19     fact, a department of the institution in Butmir?  That stems from this

20     document, but I'm asking you about your personal knowledge of this.

21        A.   I know that before the war there was a prison called Butmir.  It

22     was, in fact, a detention unit of the semi-open type.

23             As for its being a department in Vogosca, I really don't know

24     about that.  It was all within the competence of the Ministry of Justice.

25        Q.   Very well.  Since you don't know, I'll move on.  The document

Page 12700

 1     speaks for itself.

 2             MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... I have an

 3     objection about the document.  I guess it's not being tendered yet, but

 4     there's no date on it either, so I don't know if it's relevant if we

 5     can't tie it to the relevant time-period.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I wasn't tendering this document,

 8     so I don't think that's a problem.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Well, if he's not tendering it, then he shouldn't

10     say it speaks for itself.  That's my objection.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Let's move on.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's now have 65 ter 1395.

13        Q.   So this may be a response to my learned friend's objection.  And

14     on the 65 ter list we have the official document which shows that there

15     was a department or a prison in Vogosca and that it belonged to the

16     Ministry of Justice, and I only want to ask the witness whether he is

17     aware that a private house was being used for the needs of this

18     department.  And the first and last name of the owner are mentioned in

19     this document.

20             Did you ever hear about the building called Planjina Kuca, as

21     mentioned in this document?

22        A.   No, I never heard of this decision, and I never heard -- I didn't

23     know about this building.

24             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  I would indicate for the record this is

25     also an exhibit in evidence, P1327, and it can be speak for itself.

Page 12701

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree with the Prosecution, and,

 2     in fact, this is by way of explanation of my previous document to the

 3     effect that there was an official prison in Vogosca and that in the

 4     Vogosca department there was a private house where a department of that

 5     prison was set up, all within the Ministry of Justice.  And this is

 6     relevant because Planjo's House, Planjina Kuca, was mentioned quite often

 7     by previous witnesses.

 8             But apparently we cannot pursue this topic any further with this

 9     witness, so I propose that we move on to our next document, and that is

10     1D03-4451.

11        Q.   Mr. Markovic, here we have a document issued by the municipality

12     of Sokolac where they respond to the Ministry of Justice to their request

13     that one of the buildings in the territory of that municipality be turned

14     into an investigation centre or remand prison.

15             And now I'm asking you whether can you conclude, based on this

16     text, what this building was?  Can you do that, since are you from that

17     area?

18        A.   Well, I don't know where this building is, but I heard that

19     people were considering setting up this kind of facility in Sokolac.  But

20     I really don't know where it was because there were quite a few Muslim

21     villages around Sokolac.

22        Q.   We can conclude, based on your answer, that this is a health care

23     facility of some sort.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   So you will agree with me that the minister of justice obviously

Page 12702

 1     did not have enough space and was looking for appropriate solutions where

 2     to put some categories of persons under the jurisdiction of the ministry;

 3     is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's precisely what happened.  Because all official

 5     prisons were quite far away from Sokolac, and it was difficult to get to

 6     them.

 7        Q.   Very well.  These were documents from the minister of justice.

 8     Now I'm going to show you a document from our 65 ter list, 1531.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, on the previous document, I read we

10     can -- in the transcript:

11             "We can conclude, based on your answer, that this is a health

12     care facility of some sort."

13             Unless something is missing in the translation or in the

14     transcript, I couldn't see that.  It isn't -- it -- it could eventually

15     be concluded when reading the document but not by hearing the answer of

16     the witness.

17             Did we miss something in the English translation?

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I followed your

19     instructions.  I said based on the text of the response to the ministry

20     one can conclude that this was a health care facility.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Then there was problem in the transcript.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I had the same thought, but then I read

23     the answer carefully.  And at page 66, line 23, it says, Well, I don't

24     know where this --

25             The answer was:

Page 12703

 1             Well, I don't know where this building is, but I heard that

 2     people were building -- were considering setting up this kind of facility

 3     in Sokolac.

 4             So I thought maybe that was a reference to the document itself

 5     where it says something about a medical facility, and so I didn't object,

 6     but I think your point is well taken.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Markovic, we have seen how the Minister of Justice worked

10     formally, so to speak, on setting up this kind of institutions.  But here

11     we have an order from the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of

12     Vogosca where they issue a direct order to the prison warden to release

13     46 people, giving precise instructions as to how this is to be done.

14             So I'm asking you whether your commission did come across of this

15     kind of interference on the part of local authorities, Crisis Staffs,

16     Presidencies, local or municipal and so on, in your work, because you

17     will agree with me that under the rules and regulations, it was the

18     justice ministry that was supposed to decide on the fate of those

19     prisoners.  Is that so?

20        A.   I fully agree with you.  And what they did infringed on the

21     jurisdiction of the commission, whose member I was.  But many

22     municipalities in the field, on the ground, had their own Crisis Staffs,

23     and those Crisis Staffs were the Alpha and Omega of the work of the

24     entire municipality.

25             As you can see from this document, the Crisis Staff issued an

Page 12704

 1     order.  I'm referring to the Crisis Staff of the Vogosca municipality.

 2     So they were in a position to effect exchanges themselves bypassing the

 3     official State Commission for Exchanges.

 4        Q.   You obviously are unaware of this document, this order.  This is

 5     the first time that you've read it?

 6        A.   Yes.  Precisely.  This is the first time that I see it.

 7        Q.   Very well.  And when we're talking about the Ministry of Justice

 8     and these facilities, let me conclude by using another document from the

 9     65 ter list.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And that is 65 ter 1402.  And it

11     is an exhibit too, P1318.22.

12        Q.   Mr. Markovic, I will give you some time to familiarise yourself

13     with the document, and then I'm going to ask you some questions about it.

14             This is a document from 1994, but it deals with the issue that

15     covered one -- 1991 and 1992 and that is the admission of Muslim

16     civilians in the Butmir correctional and penitentiary facility, penal and

17     correctional facility.  So we come to the third category of persons that

18     we discussed, the category of refugees.

19             You will agree with me that the fact that they were housed in

20     this institution did not affect their status, because they were not

21     prisoners of war and they were not convicts?

22        A.   Yes, that's precisely the case.  The document is dated the

23     28th of October, 1994.  I was already working in the MUP by that time,

24     and I was no longer a member of the commission.  They were not considered

25     as prisoners of war.  But they were considered as refugees that had to be

Page 12705

 1     forwarded in order to achieve the re-unification of family or to achieve

 2     freedom of movement, to allow them to go wherever they want to go.  And

 3     here it says that Captain Dragan Bulajic was the president of the

 4     Central Commission.  We mentioned him as a representative of the

 5     Republika Srpska army doing the exchanges.

 6        Q.   The only reason why I called up this document is to try to show

 7     that sometimes it was not easy to categorise persons and, in particular,

 8     to find appropriate accommodation for each category.

 9             Practically here, they were put in an official penal institution

10     and their status was that of refugees and they were put there only

11     because they had to be housed somewhere.  Do you agree with me?

12        A.   Yes, absolutely.  Because they were in transit, in fact, if I may

13     call it that.  They were passing through the Serb territory with a

14     destination in the Muslim territory, and they were treated as refugees,

15     but they were housed in a penal and correctional facility.

16        Q.   Very well.  This completes the line of questioning dealing with

17     one type of a facilities where people were detained, and now I will move

18     on to the next type of such facilities and another category of persons;

19     the first category from the report that we read.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P61.2.

21        Q.   Mr. Markovic, this is a document issued by

22     Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic in which he orders the corps - you can

23     see that in item 2 - to set up appropriate facilities in which to keep

24     the first category of persons, i.e., prisoners of war, also specifying

25     the conditions in line with international conventions.  And also, which

Page 12706

 1     is of interest to us now here, is contained in item number 3 where he

 2     orders that the corps command shall independently set up prisoner

 3     exchanges, providing instructions as to how this is to be done.

 4             Can you see this from this document?

 5        A.   Yes, I can see it in the document, but I trust this had to do

 6     only with the prisoners of war held by either the Republika Srpska army

 7     or the BH army, so it's only logical for commissions to -- established in

 8     the army to do the exchanges because a single Central Commission could

 9     not deal with the civilians, the soldiers, and refugees and so on.

10        Q.   Well, yes, this was the essence of my question.  In other words,

11     did you know that the army commissions for exchange of prisoners were

12     working parallel to your commission?

13        A.   I learnt that only later when I met Captain Dragan Bulajic who

14     had an office in Grbavica, in Sarajevo, and another office in Lukavica in

15     the barracks there.

16        Q.   Very well.  So we can see how the army dealt with this issue.

17     And now let us look at how the Supreme Command or the Supreme Commander

18     dealt with this issue, at least when it comes to this kind of -- this

19     category of persons.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So could we please look at 65 ter

21     2079, please.

22        Q.   At the very bottom of this page of this Official Gazette, you can

23     see the order.  Yes.  Right-hand side, bottom of the page, "order."

24        A.   On the application of the rules --

25        Q.   Yes.  This is an order on the application of the Rules of

Page 12707

 1     International Law of War in the Army of the Serbian Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             And can we then move on to the next page of this Official Gazette

 4     where it was published.

 5             And let us look at item 2.  The president of the Serbian Republic

 6     of Bosnia-Herzegovina Radovan Karadzic says that:

 7             As for the application of the Rules of International Law of War,

 8     the commanders in the army are -- shall be responsible for this

 9     application and all other members of the army or the armed forces taking

10     part in the armed -- in combat.

11             So you will agree with me that this document is related to the

12     previous document issued by General Ratko Mladic?

13        A.   Absolutely, yes.

14        Q.   And in point 3, the minister of defence is authorised to

15     prescribe the -- or, rather, to draw up the instructions on how prisoners

16     should be treated.

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes, I see it.

19        Q.   Very well.  As this is an exhibit, we can now look at P189, and

20     we can see the instructions drawn up by the minister.

21             You know that Mr. Subotic was the minister of defence?

22        A.   Yes, Bogdan Subotic.

23        Q.   Here, the rights and obligations of military personnel in

24     categorising and looking after prisoners are described in details -- in

25     detail.

Page 12708

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And if we go on to the next page.

 2        Q.   It deals with issues of camps and so on.

 3             Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So you will agree with me that the authorised body dealing with

 6     these issues was the president or Presidency of the republic, as we have

 7     already seen.  Is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   But the issue of civilians, and I told you this in the preamble

10     to one of my questions, was something that was dealt with by the

11     Presidency as a state organ, not as Commander-in-Chief.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And it's P587.

13        Q.   Here you can see an order issued by Mr. Karadzic.

14        A.   I'm sorry, I can't see the text very well.  It's very dark.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll ask the technical staff to

16     help you.  There you are.

17        Q.   Please pay attention to point 3.

18             The president here is dealing with the issue you mentioned and

19     that is the free movement of civilians.  So this order contains the basis

20     for work on the free movement of civilians even by your commission, even

21     though your commission was appointed by the government.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I'll show you some minutes from a session of the Presidency of

24     Republika Srpska dated the 9th of October, 1992.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's P179.5.

Page 12709

 1        Q.   I think it's paragraph 5, beginning with the words:

 2             "There has been no exchange of prisoners ..."

 3             Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you read it to the end?  You don't have to read it aloud;

 6     just read it silently to yourself.

 7             So my question is the following:  Answering a question put to you

 8     by the Prosecutor, you said that the minister of justice was authorised

 9     to negotiate exchanges on his own.  And here we see that the Presidency

10     also dealt with a specific -- a particular exchange.  So evidently this

11     was a problem which occupied state organs such as the Presidency and the

12     government?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let me just ask you what exchange this was about, what particular

15     exchange; if you know?

16        A.   No.  The minutes are dated the 9th of October, but I really don't

17     know what this refers to.

18             I can tell you that very often the opposite side, instead of

19     bringing the people we asked for on our lists, would bring along

20     children, elderly people, women, only to satisfy the number of people to

21     be exchanged that was required.

22        Q.   Very well.  So I have now concluded with this topic, the

23     activities of the president and the Presidency, as regards exchanges and

24     the treatment of these three categories of persons.  And now I would like

25     to move on to a set of documents issued by the Government of Republika

Page 12710

 1     Srpska in order to show the way in which the government dealt with this

 2     problem.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So could we now have P200.  2-0-0.

 4        Q.   You see that this refers to a government session of the

 5     29th of July, 1992.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the Serbian version,

 7     please.  Yes, thank you.

 8             And can we move on to the next page and look at point 7 and 8.

 9     7 and 8.

10        Q.   Mr. Markovic, this is a situation you discussed with the

11     Prosecutor when Mr. Vanovac was appointed because here under point 7

12     under the seventh item on the agenda we see that the proposal for

13     appointing a president to the Central Commission for the Exchange of War

14     Prisoners was on the agenda, as well as agreement on the conditions and

15     way of exchanging war prisoners.

16             Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   To see what this is about, we have to find the discussion, what

19     was said about these items on the agenda.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll give you the ERN number

21     because ... it's 0124-5452.

22             It's page 6 in e-court I've just been told.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Could you please repeat the ERN number.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, I have received assistance.

25     It's on page 6 of the same document.

Page 12711

 1             Yes, here we see it.

 2        Q.   Mr. Markovic, we now have the reply to the question of when

 3     Mr. Vanovac was appointed and how.  So here we see that the minister of

 4     justice proposed him.

 5        A.   Yes, I see it.  It's number 7.

 6        Q.   And you say that he turned up, that he introduced himself to you.

 7     But it seems that he arrived before his appointment.  Are you sure of

 8     that?

 9        A.   Yes.  He came to Pale once and said that he had been appointed

10     president of the Central Commission by the Ministry of Justice, or on

11     behalf of the Ministry of Justice -- or, rather, that he had been

12     appointed by Momcilo Mandic, the then-minister.

13        Q.   Very well.

14        A.   Just a moment.  Some 20 days, or maybe a month later, he came

15     again, and he showed me a document and even asked me to hand over the

16     seal of the Central Commission, the stamp, which he took to Ilidza.

17        Q.   I'll ask you something else about this document.

18             In item 8, there's mention of an agreement on the conditions and

19     way of exchange of prisoners.  Do you know what this refers to?  Was

20     there such agreement, and did you implement it in your work?

21        A.   I think this was an agreement that war prisoners should be

22     exchanged for war prisoners only on condition that the number of men

23     should be equal.  I think there's also mention of the wounded on both

24     sides, as well as the exchange of bodies of fighters killed on both side.

25     I think.  I saw an agreement like that.

Page 12712

 1        Q.   I will show you one from the Prosecution set of exhibits and then

 2     one from the Defence set of exhibits.

 3             So, first, I'll show you P1427.23 [as interpreted].  It's P427 -

 4     not 1427 - .23.

 5             Please read this document through and then I'll ask you questions

 6     about it.

 7             Have you read it?

 8        A.   Yes.  But it's not the document I was referring to.

 9        Q.   I'll show you the one I think you were referring to.

10        A.   I have never seen this document.

11        Q.   Can you just read in the text, it says that:

12             In this agreement, the signatories established certain principles

13     as to how exchanges were to be carried out, and they resemble the

14     principles from the government decision on the appointment of your

15     commission.

16             Do you agree with what I've just said?  Just look at the

17     principles once again.

18        A.   Yes, yes.  These were the same principles that were mentioned in

19     the decision.

20        Q.   In your work, you adhered to these principles, did you not?

21        A.   Yes, absolutely.

22        Q.   Well, I can't find this other document, so I will now deal with

23     another topic for the remainder of our time today.  And that is the issue

24     that I raised with the document from Vogosca, the fact that various

25     Crisis Staffs and local authorities, local Presidencies, were involved in

Page 12713

 1     the exchanges of prisoners, the release of those prisoners.

 2             So now I would like to show you document 1D167.

 3             You can see here that the Crisis Staff of the municipality, you

 4     can see that that's the municipality of Prijedor?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Decides for all intents and purposes the fate of these people and

 7     in the items that follow categorises the persons who are to be released

 8     from imprisonment.  You will agree with me that this looks very much like

 9     what we saw in Vogosca, what the War Commission issued there, again, the

10     Crisis Staff, a local authority, decides on the fate of these people?

11        A.   Well, precisely.  It's the exact same cases we saw in the case of

12     the Vogosca municipality where the Crisis Staff issues a decision to

13     release the prisoners and detainees.  But this is dated the

14     2nd of June, 1992, and we couldn't get to Prijedor.  We couldn't even fly

15     there from Pale.  All the roads were blocked, so it was really impossible

16     to get to Prijedor and to do anything about that, to hold any kind of

17     meeting.

18        Q.   Well, you, in fact, anticipated what I was going to ask you.  And

19     that's precisely whether you were able to follow all these events

20     throughout the territory of Bosnia -- or, rather, of Republika Srpska?

21             Now that you've raised this issue, in what parts of

22     Republika Srpska were you able to know what was going on?

23        A.   Well, I was able to see directly what was going on in the

24     Sarajevo region, because there were roads there, although there were

25     sniper incidents, but it was only in October that I reached Banja Luka,

Page 12714

 1     in late October.  My presence was requested by the Croat commission

 2     because we wanted to effect an exchange in Zitnic, a place between Knin

 3     and Sibenik, the Croat and Serb prisoners were to be exchanged.

 4        Q.   From this category, I will show you just P1494; it's an exhibit.

 5             We're back in the municipality of Vogosca.  And what I find

 6     interesting in this document is that it is headed the Serbian

 7     municipality of Vogosca, and you can see that it has a department for

 8     justice administration and regulations.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm looking at it, and I'm marvelling how a municipality can

10     have a department for justice administration and regulations.

11             As far as I know, no municipalities had courts, basic courts, any

12     other judicial organs of that kind.  I mean, not the municipality, but --

13     as a territorial unit, but the Municipal Assembly as a body.

14        Q.   Well, that's precisely why I showed you this document, because

15     this department again decides on the fate of the detained persons, and

16     they're listed here by name, and it is doing your job, job -- the job of

17     your commission.

18        A.   Absolutely, yes, it was our job.  Absolutely it was our job.  And

19     we were supposed to do that.  But you can see this, that the Crisis Staff

20     did that.  In fact, it was their justice department of theirs.  It was

21     war.

22        Q.   So we can perhaps finish with a statement.  I think that this

23     question was asked already.  Obviously your commission had problems in

24     its work.  In order to be able to function as it was supposed to, as

25     stipulated by the decision to establish it, it encountered problems of

Page 12715

 1     this sort.

 2        A.   Of course, we had a lot of problems, primarily because the phone

 3     lines were down, and the provisions in the decision of the prime minister

 4     could not be complied with because of the war, and there was no

 5     communication whatsoever.  And that was the only reason why we wanted to

 6     step down because we knew that -- or, rather, although we didn't know

 7     there were any such decisions of the -- this justice department of the

 8     Vogosca municipality.

 9        Q.   Well, we are now in your neighbourhood.  Can you tell us how far

10     in the territory of the municipality of Sarajevo or Pale, where you

11     were -- or, rather, can you describe the area which was out of your

12     bounds, which could you not reach in the municipality of Sarajevo and

13     Pale?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the witness to

15     repeat his answer.

16        A.   The Serb territory was very small.  It was confined to Pale,

17     although --

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   I have to interrupt you.  It appears that my question was not

20     recorded in the transcript -- or, rather, it appears that your answer was

21     not recorded right from the beginning.  Could you please repeat it.

22        A.   At that time, the Serb territory in Pale was very small, although

23     the Serb army held the area around Sarajevo while the city itself was

24     under the control of the federal part of Bosnia.  All we could do was to

25     meet at the demarcation line between the municipalities of Pale and

Page 12716

 1     Stari Grad and to conduct the exchanges of both prisoners of war and also

 2     to ensure the freedom of movement of the civilians who wanted to leave

 3     Sarajevo and go to Pale while it was still possible to do that, because,

 4     later on, Serbs no longer could do that.

 5        Q.   My specific question for you is:  Were you able to communicate

 6     physically with Ilidza or, for instance, Trebinje?

 7        A.   No way, we could not.  We were able to have some kind of contact,

 8     limited contact with Ilidza perhaps for the first few days before the

 9     telephone lines were completely destroyed.  And, for instance, in

10     Lukavica, where I went to attend meetings with Amor Masovic, in a SFOR,

11     IFOR, or whatever it was, APC, we travelled through paths in the woods

12     that had been cleared recently, and -- to get there, to Lukavica.

13        Q.   Just complete your answer regarding Trebinje.

14        A.   Well, what to say about Trebinje?  It's in the far south of

15     Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   You mean to say that did you not have any physical communication

17     with them?

18        A.   No way, we did not.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I am observing the time, and I

20     would like to show the witness just a few documents on a slightly

21     different topic, so perhaps I should not now embark on that.

22             So unless you're opposed and unless the Prosecution is opposed,

23     perhaps we can finish for today and then continue tomorrow.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I agree, Mr. Cvijetic.

25             Mr. Markovic, we are about to take the adjournment for today.

Page 12717

 1     You, having been sworn as a witness, I am to remind you that you cannot

 2     have any communication whatever with counsel from either side in this

 3     matter; and, moreover, in such conversations as you may have with persons

 4     outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony.

 5             So we adjourn now, to resume in this courtroom at 9.00 tomorrow

 6     morning.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day

10                           of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.