1 Tuesday, 14 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
6 everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Good afternoon to everyone.
11 May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. OLMSTED: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Matthew Olmsted and
13 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
16 Stanisic Defence this afternoon. Thank you.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
18 Igor Pantelic for Zupljanin Defence.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 And if there is nothing that need delay us, may the usher
21 please -- yes, Mr. Zecevic.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just a quick information while the --
23 the witness is escorted.
24 If, with the leave of the Trial Chamber, Mr. Pantelic,
25 Mr. O'Sullivan, and myself, if we can be excused at -- well, in ten
1 minutes from now because we have a meeting with the Office of the
2 Prosecutor concerning the exhumations.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: By all means.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE HALL
8 resume your seat.
9 Before I invite Mr. Krgovic to continue his cross-examination, I
10 remind you, you're still on your oath.
11 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 WITNESS: RADOMIR RODIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, let us continue where we left off
17 yesterday. My last question had to do with a document, so now I would
18 like us to look at Exhibit P602.
19 Mr. Rodic, this is the report that we looked at yesterday, and
20 you also had an opportunity to look at it during your interview with the
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] So I would like the witness to be
23 shown page 3 of this document, in the Serbian version.
24 Q. Mr. Rodic, in the first paragraph here, we have a description of
25 the premises in Keraterm, and it is said that these are -- this is the
1 administration building with the restaurant, offices, halls, and the
2 toilets and bathrooms. And you will agree with me that there is no
3 mention of any bad conditions that you were able to observe here?
4 A. Well, approximately, yes, that's how it is.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to
6 look at page 4 in the Serbian version of this document.
7 Q. Look at paragraph 2 here. You said that you spent a few days in
8 Omarska too; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. A day or two at the beginning. I can't really recall, but
10 it was in that period.
11 Q. Paragraph 2 describes the conditions, and it says here that this
12 is a relatively new facility which has all the necessary facilities for
13 life and accommodation of a large number of persons: Offices, halls,
14 toilets and washrooms, kitchen and dining-room, constant supply of
15 drinking water, a large number of showers, constant supply of
16 electricity. No alterations were made to the facility, but the existing
17 premises were used for the accommodation of and work with the prisoners.
18 And then it goes on to say there is no barbed wire around the
19 facility, and it is quite a long way from the settlements of Omarska and
20 Maricka. Basic health care was provided -- is provided for the prisoners
21 in the investigation centre. Food is prepared in the Omarska iron/ore
22 mine kitchen, and it is served in the centre restaurant on a self-service
24 Mr. Rodic, having read this report, this part of the report, one
25 could conclude that the conditions in Omarska were good?
1 A. As far as I can recall, both facilities had been used before, and
2 they were, indeed, relatively new. So this description of facts
3 corresponds to the actual state of affairs.
4 Q. But you don't know to what extent -- or, rather, which prisoners
5 were allowed to use those premises and the conveniences listed here.
6 A. Yes, precisely. I don't know what and to what extent they were
7 able and allowed to use here.
8 Q. Mr. Rodic, look at page 5 of this document. Please look at
9 paragraph 3 here. In the Serbian version, that's the third
10 paragraph from the top; and in the English version, that would be the
11 first paragraph that we have here.
12 It says here that of the total of persons brought into the
13 investigation centre, two Muslims died of natural causes and 49 persons
14 left the investigation centre in an unknown manner.
15 Do you see this information?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. As far as I was able to gather from this report, Keraterm is
18 described as a transfer centre from which people were then transferred to
19 Omarska or to Trnopolje or then further on to Manjaca; is that correct?
20 A. As regards Keraterm, it is true, in a way. Quite a few people
21 came in, a certain number of people were released while it was possible,
22 and a certain number of people were then transferred on to Omarska and
24 Q. And this information about the number of people who died in the
25 centre, it does not correspond to the truth?
1 A. Well, I cannot comment on this information because I was in the
2 that area, so I don't really know that.
3 Q. And you will agree with me that this report does not contain any
4 information about the killing of those persons in room number 3 that the
5 Prosecutor asked you about yesterday?
6 A. I didn't notice anything of the sort in this report.
7 Q. Mr. Rodic, let us go back to page 2 of this document.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version, please.
9 Q. Mr. Rodic, in paragraph 2 on this page, we have a description of
10 Trnopolje. And here we see the description of the conditions there, and
11 it is stated there that the open reception centre Trnopolje is located in
12 the Trnopolje settlement, inhabited area, and it is used as an
13 accommodation facility for the persons staying there. And these are the
14 premises of the elementary school, the hall, the warehouse, and the
15 private homes near those facilities as well as the open-air area in the
17 From the 24th of May, 1992, a relatively large number of citizens
18 of Muslim ethnicity of both genders and all ages have sought refuge in
19 the centre. Then we see the number of persons stated here. And then the
20 report goes on to say the number of persons in this centre changes every
21 day, and no special record are kept since the citizens are allowed to
22 leave the camp as they see fit and to go wherever they like.
23 Then in paragraph number 3 it is stated that there is a water
24 supply, electricity supply in the camp, that the area is not fenced in,
25 and that citizens are not interrogated in the centre. And the army
1 personnel provides constant security for the facility, in case of any
2 threats to the citizens from the outside by the extremists. And then it
3 goes on to say that an outpatient clinic is there, that the
4 representatives of the Red Cross are present.
5 Mr. Rodic, you did not carry out any investigative actions or you
6 didn't make any Official Notes regarding any of the persons in Trnopolje;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. We didn't go there. We didn't take any
9 actions in Trnopolje. I did not stay in that area in that period. I am
10 familiar with the location, and I know that the description is accurate.
11 You have the school, the hall, the shops, and the private homes around
13 Q. Do you know if the area was fenced in?
14 A. What I do know is that there was a shop nearby, and the warehouse
15 was fenced in, and the shop itself was actually in the warehouse. And
16 that was the only part of the whole facility that was fenced in, as far
17 as I know.
18 Q. Mr. Rodic, do you know that, apart from this report, report by
19 any -- by this commission, whether there were any other reports about the
20 conditions in the collection centres?
21 A. I'm not aware of any other efforts of this kind, and, in fact,
22 the first time that I saw this report was in the course of the
23 investigation, when it was shown to me by the investigator.
24 Q. And you and your colleagues from the state security or public
25 security, when you made the Official Notes, when you did your job, you
1 did not go into that, you did not send any reports further up about that?
2 A. No, we did not. We focussed in our reports or in our
3 Official Notes, we focussed only on that, and this was the only form of
4 communication that we had in that time-period.
5 Q. Mr. Rodic, in the team in Keraterm, was Djuro Savic there too?
6 A. I know a man by the name of Djuro Savic, but he was never there.
7 And there was no Djuro Savic in our -- in our office there at all.
8 Q. And while you were in Omarska?
9 A. I don't think -- in fact, I know that he was not there. But as
10 I've already told you, I was there just two days.
11 Q. Was Sredoje Novic in the team with you?
12 A. No. No, I said who worked in the teams on those jobs. Nobody
13 else was there, not the persons that you've just mentioned or anyone
15 Q. And in Omarska, while you were there, he was not there?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Mr. Rodic, do you know that in Omarska, while you were there, or
18 did you hear of any killings of the prisoners by the guards and that it
19 was done on a wager for a crate of beer?
20 A. I don't know that. I don't know that.
21 Q. In the course of your interview, the Prosecutor showed you a
22 number of documents signed by Milos
23 said that you were not familiar with those reports and that you were not
24 aware of any group called Milos
25 A. Yes, I was shown those documents, but I didn't know anything
1 about them, and I -- when -- I told the investigator that this was not
2 the appropriate form that we used in our daily communication for those
4 Q. And when you were in Keraterm and in Omarska, you did not see
5 Predrag Radulovic there, did you?
6 A. No, I did not. But, as I said, I was there for a very short
7 time, and I didn't see anyone from the outside, so to speak, anyone from
8 outside of Prijedor. I'm now talking about the people who were involved
9 in the investigative measures taking place up there.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel be kind
11 enough to switch off the mike while the witness is speaking.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 interpreters remind you to switch off your microphone while the witness
14 is answering.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Rodic. So my question was: You never saw
17 Mr. Radulovic in Keraterm either; is that correct?
18 A. As I said, nobody else was involved in investigative measures,
19 apart from us six who were working there.
20 Q. The Prosecutor asked you in examination-in-chief about anyone
21 else coming to visit Keraterm from other areas, and in response, you
22 said, if I understood you correctly, that one of the guards mentioned a
23 delegation and that Stojan Zupljanin was there as well. Do you remember
24 saying that?
25 A. Yes, I said that. But I also said that that was conveyed by one
1 of the guards. Therefore, whether that was really the case or not, I
2 cannot say.
3 There was a delegation which stayed for a while there. And after
4 that, we inquired with the guards and I think that one of them said that
5 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin was there as well.
6 Q. In other words, you personally did not see Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.
7 You didn't see any member of the delegation. It was only after a while
8 that you heard that Mr. Zupljanin might have been in that delegation. Is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes, precisely.
11 Q. Do you know that a high-level delegation visited Prijedor and
12 also paid a visit to Omarska in the summer of 1992 in which context the
13 names of Mr. Brdjanin and some other people were mentioned?
14 A. I know that there was a delegation paying a visit, but that
15 probably happened a couple of days after their visit. Whether it
16 happened in Prijedor or not, I cannot say with any degree of certainty.
17 And I also heard on that occasion that Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Brdjanin
18 were members of that high-level delegation. I can't remember who else
19 was there.
20 Q. And probably this visit by this delegation to Omarska created
21 some kind of confusion in the sense that they visited Keraterm too; is
22 that correct?
23 A. It is possible that there was some confusion. I cannot say
24 whether it happened in my head or in the head of that man who told me
25 that because I didn't see it, and I really can't say with any degree of
1 certainty that Mr. Zupljanin was there.
2 Q. Mr. Rodic, can you tell me approximately when was it when you
3 returned, whether it was in early August or mid-August? When was it you
4 returned to your regular job?
5 A. I believe that that was sometime in mid-August or the latter half
6 of August.
7 Q. Your office was in the public security station. Which floor was
8 that; the third or the fourth?
9 A. We were on the top floor, which was actually the second floor.
10 But if you count the ground floor, then it would be the third floor.
11 Q. Was your office close to the conference room in the Prijedor SJB?
12 A. The conference room was in an auxiliary building that you could
13 reach through the yard. Therefore, it was not close to our offices.
14 Q. What about the office of Simo Drljaca? Where was his office
16 A. It was located on the floor below and in the wing opposite to the
17 wing where we were.
18 Q. Mr. Rodic, do you know who General Bogdan Subotic is?
19 A. I have heard of him, of Mr. Subotic, but I don't know which
20 position he held at the time.
21 Q. And you had never seen him and you had never heard of him coming
22 to the Prijedor public security station?
23 A. No, I hadn't.
24 Q. And particularly in the course of 1992; is that correct?
25 A. I don't know if I ever saw Mr. Subotic in person, and that
1 includes that period as well.
2 Q. And you surely never heard of Mr. Zupljanin, following the period
3 when you returned to the station, coming to the public security station?
4 A. I don't know that Mr. Zupljanin came in that period. I saw
5 Mr. Zupljanin in Prijedor only much later, and I think that had to do
6 with some assembly sessions taking part in -- taking place in Prijedor,
7 and I saw him in that context. But I allow for a possibility that I
8 might be mistaken.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rodic.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for
11 this witness.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours? Thank you.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Rodic.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. I'm going to put only a few questions to you because my learned
17 friend Krgovic and I agreed to focus our cross-examination on certain
18 matters and that he would do the bulk of the job in his part of
19 cross-examination. Therefore, I'm going only to tackle a number of
20 issues that might require some clarification.
21 Let me just remind you of a document that you discussed at length
22 with the Prosecutor.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And for the benefit of the
24 Trial Chamber, that's P583.
25 Can we just enlarge the second paragraph.
1 Q. Let me just refresh your memory. I'm not going to dwell long on
2 this document. And this paragraph speaks about the categorisation of
3 persons that the Prosecutor asked you about. Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Now, my question is a question in principle. You were a member
6 of a so-called mixed team made up of members of the State and Public
7 Security Services, and you said yesterday that there were military
8 personnel involved as well; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. The essential purpose of your job was to establish who, among the
11 people you interrogated, might have been involved or implicated in the
12 commission of certain crimes and to what extent.
13 Now, in short, was that your task? Would you agree with me?
14 A. Well, yes, that corresponds more or less to what we were doing.
15 In these interviews, we tried to get as much information as possible
16 about the persons who might have been involved in such activities or
18 Q. Then you will certainly agree with me that the selection of
19 suspects, according to the type of crime and the degree of involvement in
20 the commission of certain crimes, was a lawful operative activity that
21 all organs of the interior normally conduct all over the world, including
22 our country. You would agree with me on that, wouldn't you?
23 A. It is true that, according to the law in force at the time, those
24 were the tasks that we were supposed to carry out during that pre-war and
25 war period.
1 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to move to a different subject.
2 In response to the questions put to you by the Prosecutor and my
3 colleague Krgovic, you said that practically your methodology of work
4 employed by members of the State and Public Security Services and your
5 line of work was - let me put it this way - frozen at the time because
6 you became a member of the team that operated according to the
7 methodology that was employed by members of the Public Security Service;
8 am I right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. And as I said earlier, during that period,
10 we did not have much communication with our first-instance superior, that
11 is to say, Banja Luka.
12 As for the latter part of your question, that was also true.
13 That was only part of the activities that was any way part of the job
14 description of members of the -- of the public security --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat whether he said
16 "public" or "state" security.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, the interpreters ask that you repeat
18 your last answer to counsel's question, notably whether you said "public
19 security" or "state security." The interpreter did not catch that. So
20 please if could you repeat.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I said state security.
22 That that was only part of the job that the state security had within its
23 general job description.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Very well. Tell me, Mr. Rodic, during that period, you did not
1 maintain any significant communication with your basic service in
2 Banja Luka because, as I understand, the results of your work ended in
3 the -- in the hands of Mr. Simo Drljaca, the chief of the Prijedor SJB;
4 is that correct?
5 A. It is true that we didn't have any communication whatsoever with
6 Banja Luka, with the exception of the colleague who used to come to pay
7 some kind of -- visit us as a kind of courtesy, and I know that all these
8 reports ended up as you said.
9 Q. Speaking of that, I'm going to put a direct question to you: How
10 many times during that period did you go to Banja Luka? And did you use
11 any other communication channels to liaise with Banja Luka? And did you
12 have any difficulties in that respect?
13 A. As of April until the second half of September, I did not go to
14 Banja Luka, nor do I remember any of my colleagues going there. We
15 didn't have any other channels of communication. I think that even the
16 telephone was broken or at least broken for the most of the time.
17 Q. Can you give us an approximate answer to the question: When was
18 it that you first heard who the interior minister of Republika Srpska
19 was, and how did you learn that?
20 A. I heard that from the media. And I cannot give you an
21 approximate date. I think it was more or less at the time when it
22 happened, but I really can't give you the time. I can't recall the time.
23 Q. And for all intents and purposes, this was all the knowledge that
24 you had about the existence of the minister of the interior; in other
25 words, what you heard from the media?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. I heard this in the media, and I may have
2 heard something in that context regarding some activities or something
3 like, but I did not have any personal first-hand knowledge.
4 Q. Yesterday, my colleague Mr. Krgovic showed you documents
5 generated by the Crisis Staff indicating that it was the Crisis Staff of
6 the Prijedor municipality that actually established the collection
7 centres or whatever we can call it. And I will show you a document but
8 for another purpose.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at 1D166.
10 The document is a bit small. Can we please zoom in on the top part of
11 the document. First two paragraphs. We won't be looking at the rest of
13 Q. Mr. Rodic, to confirm what Mr. Krgovic has already shown you, you
14 can see in the heading of this document that in line with the decision of
15 the Crisis Staff, in order to implement this decision, collection centres
16 are set up. As can you see from paragraph 1, you will see that
17 Mr. Simo Drljaca signed this document. We will look at page 2.
18 So can you see in paragraph 1?
19 A. Yes, I can see parts of it.
20 Q. And there's a reference to the decision of the Crisis Staff.
21 That's the decision that you looked at yesterday with my colleague
22 Mr. Krgovic. You do remember that Mr. Krgovic showed you this document?
23 A. Yes, I do remember.
24 Q. Now I would like us to look at the last page of this document.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If we can go through this document
1 until we reach the last page, paragraph 15.
2 I think that in the English version we need to go back one page.
3 Yes, item number 15.
4 Q. Mr. Rodic, I think you may have already read it, but let's go
5 through it.
6 Mr. Drljaca strictly prohibits any provision of any information
7 whatsoever concerning the functioning of the collection centre, and all
8 official documents must be kept at the collection centre and may be taken
9 out or destroyed only with the permission of the chief of the
10 Prijedor SJB. The security staff shall be responsible for this.
11 Now, Mr. Rodic, in the context of your evidence and what you've
12 just told me, if we establish a link with this order issued by
13 Mr. Drljaca, it does appear that Mr. Drljaca, in fact, monopolized the
14 right to gathering all information about all the events in the territory
15 of the Prijedor municipality in a way by issuing this decision?
16 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, it's a bit of a misleading question
17 because this document pertains to Omarska camp, and this witness was at
18 Keraterm camp. So I don't know what link my learned friend is trying to
19 draw here.
20 Perhaps he wants to ask whether a similar order was issued with
21 regard to Keraterm camp. That would probably be a feasible question this
22 witness could answer.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, the essence of my question
24 does not pertain to the operation of any of the collection centres. It's
25 the conduct, the behaviour, of Mr. Simo Drljaca regarding an embargo on
1 the information in the Prijedor municipality, and I'm using it as a
2 reference for further questions. So I'm not now dealing with Omarska or
3 with Keraterm; I'm just trying to explore this issue with the witness. I
4 haven't yet embarked on it. So may I be allowed to finish?
5 JUDGE HALL
6 is that the question, as phrased, invited an argument.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let me be quite specific.
8 Q. Mr. Rodic, to the extent to which you came to know Mr. Drljaca,
9 would you agree with me that he, as the chief of the SJB, was quite
10 autonomous in his work, in relation to the rest of the Autonomous Region
11 of Krajina and other responsible organs?
12 MR. OLMSTED: I guess -- I suppose if the witness can answer
13 that, but it does call for speculation if this witness was in Prijedor
14 during this time and did not go to other municipalities. And so how is
15 he going to be able to compare what was happening in Prijedor with other
16 places during this time-period?
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, if the witness can give us
18 any information, then, please, let him; and, if not, we'll proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is the question?
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Well, you've read this order by Mr. Drljaca. Is that how he
22 acted when it came to the information he received from you? Because you
23 said that your information also went to him.
24 A. It is true that information that we produced went to the MUP, to
25 the SUP
1 document, where he actually issues an explicit order to that effect.
2 As far as Mr. Drljaca is concerned, as a superior officer, I
3 can't really say much because I did not have that much contact with him.
4 And it was mostly common courtesy; we would meet on the staircase, things
5 like that. But if -- I can tell you this: I did know him to a degree
6 before the war from sports activities and recreation activities, where he
7 always wanted to be the dominant figure. He was rather brazen, and I
8 thought this was not acceptable for everyone.
9 Now I cannot say whether he behaved in the same way in his work
10 in this period because I don't know him all that well. He was not my
11 immediate superior.
12 Q. Well, I will not dwell on that.
13 Yesterday, Mr. Krgovic showed you a document --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
15 Mr. Zecevic [sic] for the previous document, that is, 1D166, you said
16 that the witness looked at it yesterday "with my colleague Mr. Krgovic.
17 Do you remember that Mr. Krgovic showed you this document?"
18 And the witness answers: "Yes, I do remember."
19 I'm sorry, but I don't remember, and I don't see that in -- in
20 the -- in the transcript. I don't think 166 has been showed. 167 has
21 been showed.
22 Just -- I don't know whether it's important, but this shows how
23 easy one can mislead a witness, if I'm right.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, that was not my
25 intention. And I didn't mean to say that this document was shown to him.
1 That's not what I said. If you recall, I showed him just the heading,
2 the letterhead of this document, or, rather, the preamble where the
3 decision on -- of the Crisis Staff to establish those collection centres
4 is referred to.
5 Mr. Krgovic spoke about that and showed another document, and I
6 just reminded the witness that he had discussed this topic with
7 Mr. Krgovic, but not that this document was shown to him by Mr. Krgovic.
8 And I fully agree with you. Mr. Krgovic did not show him this document.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you,
10 and I apologise.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let me just try and remember.
12 Q. You remember that Mr. Krgovic showed you this decision on the
13 release of persons from detention. It was a decision of the
14 Crisis Staff. And you said that the Crisis Staff decided who would be
15 released from those collection centres. Do you recall that? Do you
16 recall having seen that?
17 MR. OLMSTED: That misstates his evidence. He did not say that
18 the Crisis Staff released persons. He said he didn't know.
19 Can you maybe point to us where in the transcript he made that
20 assertion, that the Crisis Staff decided who was released?
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, well the gist of my
22 question is merely to ask him whether he recalls discussing this topic
23 with Mr. Krgovic and whether Mr. Krgovic actually showed him this
24 document. I didn't want to comment on his answer.
25 Q. So you remember that Mr. Krgovic showed you the decision to
1 release some persons from the collection centres. Do you remember? And
2 I can give you the reference. That's 1D167. And can you look at the
3 document, if you wish, to refresh your memory.
4 A. I'm sorry, I consider this document as a follow-up on the
5 document issued by the Crisis Staff, the one that was shown. I think
6 this was yet another document that spoke about the establishment of
7 detention centres or camps. And the previous document I considered to be
8 the follow-up on the other one; in a way, Mr. Simo Drljaca's response to
9 it, when he reported.
10 Q. Yes. You can see the document that I mean on the screen. And do
11 you remember having seen this document yesterday?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So Mr. Krgovic showed you this document, and you commented on
14 this document.
15 Let me now show you another document.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's P663.
17 Q. I will give you some time for you to read some parts of this
19 Have you been able to read it?
20 A. Well, parts of it.
21 Q. Mr. Rodic, if you look at this document really closely,
22 Mr. Simo Drljaca - we will see the last page, and we will see that he
23 signed it - is reporting to the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality
24 on the implementations of the conclusions of the Crisis Staff.
25 So let us look at the kind of conclusions we're talking about.
1 Look at the conclusion that pertains to the procurement of uniforms for
2 the police. I think it's the second conclusion.
3 A. I think that we're now on page 2 and we need --
4 Q. Yes. I will now check what you're looking at, that we're now at
5 page 2 so that you can see that Mr. Simo Drljaca signed it.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1, please.
7 Q. Yes, well, now you can see it.
8 So you see the conclusion, number 1, Simo Drljaca reports to the
9 Crisis Staff that the conclusion that the release of prisoners is
10 prohibited is fully observed.
11 You told us yesterday who was -- who had the right to decide on
12 the fate of the prisoners. And you can see conclusion number 2, that the
13 Crisis Staff is dealing even with the procurement of police uniforms.
14 Mr. Rodic, let me just ask you: This is something that the state
15 should be dealing with. The state should be in charge of procuring
16 uniforms for the police; right?
17 A. Well, as far as I know, supplying the police and the army was
18 always done not at the municipal level but at the level of the republic
19 or of the state.
20 Q. And then you can look at the conclusion about the police staff
21 payroll. I think that's conclusion number 5.
22 You see this conclusion. It says LD. That would be the salary
23 of the police staff -- force. Force.
24 A. Yes I do apologise.
25 Q. Can you see it?
1 A. Yes, I can. Well, I wasn't able to see it because you gave me
2 the wrong reference.
3 Q. I think that your comment regarding the uniforms would apply also
4 to the salaries. Salaries should be paid from -- by the state, not by
5 the municipality; right?
6 A. That's how it had been until the war broke out, and I think that
7 the municipalities have nothing to do with it now. This is not done at
8 the municipal level.
9 Q. And now look at the last paragraph on this page where Mr. Drljaca
10 refers to an order of the Crisis Staff to establish an intervention
11 platoon, a joint intervention platoon, that would also include members of
12 the military police. Can you see it?
13 A. Yes, it's the last one here.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the English version, that would
15 be on the next page.
16 Q. You see that conclusion?
17 A. Yes, yes, I see. The one that pertains to the establishment of
18 this unit.
19 Q. Now my question is very brief: Were you aware of the existence
20 of such a unit; and, if so, who had established it?
21 A. I would see people from that unit from time to time, but I did
22 not know who had established it and on whose orders.
23 Q. Very well. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for me to show you
24 the document on the establishment of this unit.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, can we please have
1 Exhibit P803.
2 Q. Mr. Rodic, you can see the date. And it says the Crisis Staff.
3 Can you please read the order that Mr. Drljaca had referred to in the
4 previous document. Can you please have a look at it.
5 Did you manage to read it?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Very briefly, to the extent that you are aware of, the
8 establishment of special police units, according to the Law on Internal
9 Affairs, is exclusively under the jurisdiction of the minister of the
10 interior; is that right? Or, rather, do you know that?
11 A. I think I agree with you. Usually it would be
12 higher-level organs, i.e., the ministry, would take care of personnel
13 issues, recruitment, provision of uniforms, and salaries, et cetera. So
14 this was a whole series of jobs that should have done by the ministry.
15 Q. But obviously in Prijedor this was done by the Crisis Staff; is
16 that right?
17 A. According to what I see in front of me, yes, that is correct.
18 Q. Let me just show you one more document issued by the
19 Crisis Staff.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D00-0924.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, did you know about this? Did you
22 know that it was the municipality who paid for and bought uniforms and
23 created a platoon?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know exactly that
25 these kind of decisions had been taken. I didn't know that. But I did
1 notice that this unit had been established, but I don't know on whose
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, then the next obvious question is:
4 What's the purpose of this line of questions? It concerns documents that
5 are already admitted. What's the purpose of learning this witness things
6 he doesn't know? Shouldn't you try to learn the Court things -- tell the
7 Court things we don't know?
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I am pursuing
9 this line of questioning in an attempt to elicit from witness for -- what
10 he perhaps know. But it turns out that the witness is not aware of
11 search facts, and I cannot know in advance what he was or wasn't aware
12 of. So the next document, I think, was not admitted into evidence. But
13 I wanted to ask him about the blockade of the town that is mentioned in
14 this document, and I wanted to ask him if he knew anything about that.
15 Q. Mr. Rodic, have you read this document?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 I don't know what was undertaken in this respect, but I know that
18 there were check-points around the town on the main roads. But whether
19 there were any activities involved, I don't know.
20 Q. Was that felt, or did it affect the freedom of movement and the
21 possibility for people to leave Prijedor? Can you tell us anything about
23 A. I couldn't tell you anything about that because during that
24 period, I moved very little around the town. And, besides, I don't know
25 how these check-points operated.
1 Q. Mr. Rodic, I have no further questions for you. I have finished
2 my cross-examination.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no questions
4 for this witness.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Olmsted:
8 Mr. Rodic, I want to return one more time to this delegation
9 visit to Keraterm camp.
10 How soon after this delegation visited Keraterm did the guard
11 tell you that Mr. Zupljanin was part of that delegation?
12 A. I told you yesterday that I wasn't able to pin-point the date.
13 Therefore, I honestly cannot tell you how soon it happened after the
14 visit. I don't know if it happened concurrently. I cannot tell you more
15 than what I already told you, and that is what the guard told me. And I
16 cannot make any further comments on that.
17 Q. Well, you testified that you recall hearing sounds of cars coming
18 that day and arriving at Keraterm. Is that what prompted you to go down
19 and ask the guards what was going on, was there a delegation here, who
20 was in it?
21 MR. KRGOVIC: Can I have a reference when the witness said that
22 about the car?
23 MR. OLMSTED: Yes. If you look at transcript page 14499.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 of your questions, it seems to me that you're on an impossible quest, if
1 you're trying to establish the fact of -- of the -- who was present from
2 this witness's testimony, because he's explained that he didn't know. He
3 heard, and he heard this from the guards. And can -- can -- can you
4 go -- can you take the witness further?
5 MR. OLMSTED: Well, the only place I want to go further is -- is
6 when he had this conversation with the guards. And he's having trouble
7 remembering that. And I'm trying to associate with him finding out
8 that -- or hearing that a bunch of cars were coming and whether that's
9 what prompted him to go speak to the guards about this event. If he
10 can't answer it, then that's fine.
11 Q. So, Mr. Rodic -- I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 MR. OLMSTED: Yes.
14 Q. Just very quickly, Mr. Rodic. You testified during the
15 examination that you heard sounds of cars arriving that day. And my
16 question to you: Is that what prompted you to go down and speak to the
17 guards about this delegation?
18 MR. KRGOVIC: First of all, it's leading. First you ask him: Did
19 he go to ask guard or not. And when. If he was there.
20 MR. OLMSTED: I don't believe it's leading, Your Honours. It's a
21 question, whether him hearing these vehicles arriving that day, that's
22 what prompted him to go and speak to the guards about this delegation
23 that he has talked about, that he has testified about.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 thought that you would have taken the hint from the Bench that whatever
1 the answer is, it doesn't matter.
2 MR. OLMSTED: Then I'm just going to move on.
3 Q. Mr. Rodic, you testified during the examination that once you
4 submitted your Official Notes from Keraterm to the typist, that was the
5 last you saw of them. Today Mr. Cvijetic suggested to you that these
6 Official Notes ended up in the hands of Simo Drljaca, and I think you may
7 have agreed with that.
8 Can you tell us, do you know whether, in fact, your
9 Official Notes they were actually given to Simo Drljaca?
10 A. I did say that the Official Notes were sent to the SUP. I didn't
11 tell Mr. Cvijetic that it was Mr. Simo Drljaca who received them. I just
12 said that they were sent to the SUP
13 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take a look at 1D166.
14 Q. And you'll recall this. A few minutes ago you were shown this by
15 Mr. Cvijetic. This is an order regarding Omarska camp by the CS -- or
16 the SJB chief from Prijedor.
17 MR. OLMSTED: And if we could just turn to the last page of it.
18 Q. Now, we can see that there are a list of seven organs to which
19 copies of this order were submitted. And we see under number 3 the
20 Security Service Centre in Banja Luka.
21 Mr. Rodic, given the system of subordination that existed in
22 1992, was this an appropriate action for the SJB chief to submit an order
23 he issued to the CSB
24 A. Well, some documents definitely had to be sent to the chief of
25 the CSB
1 Q. Now, Mr. Krgovic asked you some questions about police roadblocks
2 or check-points that were near Keraterm, or possibly near Keraterm, on
3 the morning following the room 3 killings.
4 I want to show you P1009.
5 Now, this is a dispatch from SJB Prijedor to CSB Banja Luka dated
6 24 July 1992
7 Prijedor, the police and military police have established mixed
8 check-points at all entrances to and exits from the town of Prijedor
9 traversed by main roads.
10 Now, you testified that you didn't encounter any check-points
11 between Prijedor town and Keraterm camp that day, the day following the
12 killings in room 3. But can you tell us whether there were any
13 check-points that existed past Keraterm; in other words, further along
14 the way to Banja Luka?
15 A. When we spoke about that day and I said that on our way in and
16 out, or, rather, that there were no roadblock -- check-points on the day
17 we came close to Keraterm. If that was the question.
18 There were some check-points, as I said earlier today, but I
19 myself didn't pass through them, and I don't know for what purpose they
20 had been set up.
21 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, this was marked for identification.
22 May it be admitted into evidence?
23 MR. KRGOVIC: No, Your Honour, there is -- I object to that.
24 There is no nexus between -- because the witness never passed through the
25 check-points. And, first of all, this line of question doesn't appear
1 from my cross-examination. I asked precisely about the on-site
2 investigation blocking the road nearby Keraterm.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 seeking to tender this document through this witness.
5 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, this witness has now established there were
6 check-points. He didn't have to pass through them that day, but there
7 were check-points, and he doesn't know why they existed. And this
8 document does establish that these -- these check-points existed as well.
9 And so it corroborates his testimony.
10 It has already been marked for identification, and so we're
11 simply seeking now to admit it into evidence.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, the witness says there were some
14 check-points. But this document obviously he doesn't know about. Why --
15 why should we take it in? We have the statement of the witness in. Why
16 would we take it in with this witness?
17 MR. OLMSTED: Well, Your Honours, I mean, other than calling the
18 person who signed this, I don't think we're going to have another option
19 as to a witness who can speak about check-points in and around the
20 Prijedor area. And so this is really corroborating that issue as well as
21 addressing the issue that Mr. Krgovic is trying to raise that there
22 weren't such check-points existing around this time-period.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I directly asked the
24 witness about a previous testimony, that is to say, whether there was any
25 roadblock before Keraterm and that traffic was stopped. And that was the
1 only focus of my question. I didn't ask him about any other check-points
2 in or out of Prijedor.
3 And now we are talking at length here about some check-points
4 that the witness had never gone through. So it has nothing to do with
5 either my cross-examination or the response given by the witness.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one sentence in
7 support of Mr. Krgovic's objection:
8 We have been repeatedly hearing from the OTP that they have no
9 other witness through whom they can introduce this document. This is not
10 a sufficient argument for introducing the document through any witness.
11 They can be -- that can be done in a different way. We just shouldn't
12 try and force the issue and admit this document into evidence through
13 this witness. And I don't think that, what the Prosecutor says, that he
14 doesn't have a proper witness, will suffice.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 what you have just said.
17 Mr. Olmsted, in our view, this document is not admissible.
18 And it is time for the break, so we will adjourn and resume in
19 20 minutes.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 MR. OLMSTED: And if I may begin, could we have Exhibit P601 on
25 the screen.
1 Q. Mr. Rodic, yesterday you had a chance to look at this document
2 and answer some questions about it with -- from Mr. Krgovic. And it's a
3 decision by the CSB
4 explained and as we can see from the document itself, the commission had
5 a significant number of tasks assigned to it, including visiting three
6 municipalities, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Bosanski Novi; establishing the
7 existence of detention facilities in these three municipalities;
8 determining why they were created, how they functioned; determining who
9 was detained there and what conditions; and establishing whether the
10 persons were leaving these three municipality, either voluntarily or by
12 Now, we can see that the document is dated the
13 14th of August, 1992.
14 MR. OLMSTED: And if we can turn to the next page in the English
15 but stay where we are in the B/C/S.
16 Q. We see that, towards the end of this document, that this -- that
17 the commission's given until 1200 hours on 17 August 1992 to submit a
18 report on these various issues.
19 Mr. Rodic, based on your experience as a SDB officer, as well as
20 your knowledge of the situation that existed in mid-August 1992, was
21 three days sufficient time for a commission to interview everyone they
22 needed to interview in order to provide a thorough analysis of all these
24 A. Well, I don't know what the commission members used to gain this
25 information, so I cannot be more specific about it. There are two or
1 three days here; I don't know whether it was sufficient for them or not.
2 I really cannot make any comments. And now as for what they used in
3 order to put together this report, I don't know that.
4 Q. During this time-period, August 1992, do you recall whether --
5 well, let me ask you this: Given the conditions of the roads and
6 restrictions on travel in August 1992, how much time would it take to
7 travel between Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, and Sanski Most? Could you do
8 that in a day?
9 A. Well, it -- it can -- it takes you half an hour to travel that
10 distance. I don't know why it would take you a whole day. It's
11 30 kilometres or so.
12 Q. And just to clarify, transportation was free between those
13 various locations at this time, August 1992? In other words, there was
14 no reason to delay travelling between those municipalities?
15 A. Well, I can't see any reason for any delays in that period. I
16 don't see any reason why it would take a long time to travel from one
17 point to another.
18 Q. In this time-period, mid-August 1992, do you recall whether there
19 was a lot of international media attention concerning the detention camps
20 in Prijedor?
21 A. Well, I can't say anything about media attention. But there were
22 some reports in our media, and I had no opportunity to follow any other
23 media, to watch or to read any other media.
24 Q. Now, in response to a couple of Mr. Krgovic's questions yesterday
25 and today, you mentioned that you were at Omarska camp for a couple of
1 days towards the end of May of 1992. Can you tell us, what did you do
2 while you were at Omarska camp during those couple of days?
3 A. Well, I said that I spent a day or two up there from the time
4 when the investigation centre opened. We started performing some
5 investigative measures. But this was a very short time-period, and I
6 think that they went on doing that, up there.
7 Q. And just to clarify, were you interviewing detainees while you
8 were at Omarska?
9 A. Well, in a day or two, I performed just a few interviews, minor
10 stuff, because the work was just starting at the time.
11 Q. And I believe it was suggested in your previous answer but it
12 appears you didn't go alone. Did you go with other members of SDB and
13 SJB to Omarska?
14 A. Yes. I didn't go there on my own. The colleagues who were with
15 me in Keraterm and a number of colleagues who remained up there, working
16 up there, they all went with me.
17 Q. Was Goran Novic amongst those that went with you to perform these
19 A. I think he was.
20 Q. And was he one of the individuals who stayed at Omarska to
21 continue on with interrogations after you returned to Keraterm?
22 A. Yes, he was.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rodic.
24 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 Tribunal. You are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe
2 journey back to your home.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. For the record, I'm
6 Tom Hannis joining the Prosecution team. I have the next witness,
7 ST-137. And if could I address a couple of procedural scheduling matters
8 with you before we have him come in.
9 First of all, I understand that the parties met earlier to
10 discuss the issue of exhumations. My understanding: That those
11 discussions were not fruitful and that it is a matter that we would like
12 to address with you later in the week when we finish with the next two
13 witnesses, whether that will be on Thursday or Friday, to discuss
14 exhumations. And I think also some discussion about the Mladic materials
15 and the parties' view on how we're going to proceed with dealing with
17 The other matter I wanted to raise, and I'd like to go into
18 private session, if I could.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 14581-14584 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 Pursuant to the decision of the Trial Chamber of the
13 14th of July, 2010, in which it allowed the Prosecution to add
14 44 witnesses to the 65 ter list for the specific purpose of leading
15 evidence to establish the substance of denied adjudicated facts, the
16 Prosecution filed a notice and an addendum on the 22nd of July, 2010
17 which it provided time estimates for the examination-in-chief of
18 23 viva voce witnesses from a total of 44, amounting to 47 hours and
19 15 minutes.
20 The Trial Chamber, having assessed the scope of the testimony of
21 each witness listed to testify viva voce and the relevant adjudicated
22 facts, finds that 40 hours in total is sufficient for the
23 examination-in-chief of the 23 identified witnesses.
24 The Trial Chamber is also seized of the joint Defence motion
25 seeking an order to compel the Prosecution to designate 92 bis and
1 92 quater packages for the 44 additional witness filed on the
2 4th of August. In the interest of efficient trial management, the
3 Trial Chamber hereby orders the Prosecution to file the 92 bis and quater
4 packages for the remaining 14 witnesses, whose testimony it proposes to
5 adduce, in written form by Tuesday, the 28th of September, 2010.
6 Thank you.
7 The -- we would now go into closed session. The -- as -- as the
8 next -- before we deal further with the intended witness.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just for the sake of clarity, because
11 I see my friend from the -- from the Prosecutor side is not standing up,
12 we already received the motion for five witnesses out of these -- well,
13 they --
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] The five witnesses out
15 of the 25?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] Or is it out of the
18 15 witnesses?
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, that is -- that is -- that is exactly why am
20 I confused. Because your order, just now, is that the Prosecution is
21 invited to -- to submit the packages for 14 witnesses. And I'm not ...
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
23 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
24 JUDGE HALL
25 ten plus four.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 [Closed session]
11 Pages 14588-14620 redacted. Closed session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: And we are back in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day
20 of September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.