Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14926

 1                           Tuesday, 28 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Zupljanin not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 7     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 8     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Good afternoon to

10     everyone.

11             May we have the appearances, please.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  On behalf of the

13     Office of the Prosecutor, I'm Tom Hannis along with Jasmina Bosnjakovic.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

16     this afternoon.  Thank you.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

18     Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19     Our client is not present.  He already signed a waiver which I think we

20     have it.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             We have been alerted that before the witness comes in there are

23     some matters which the OTP wishes to raise.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, if I may, Your Honour.  I have two matters and

25     I think the first one I would like to go into private session for, if I

Page 14927

 1     may.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  And we are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 14928

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 2             Your Honour, the other matter relates to the exhibit that was

 3     MFI'd as P1608 yesterday.  This was an excerpt from Mladic notebook, and

 4     I just wanted to make an apology to my learned friend Mr. Zecevic because

 5     yesterday I referred to him as my alleged learned friend in part because

 6     I didn't understand the basis of his objection and I took offence because

 7     I thought he was raising an inference that the Prosecution had made up

 8     this exhibit out of whole cloth with no basis.  But his objection, now

 9     that I understand it, is well taken.  We have not uploaded into e-court

10     the original handwritten Cyrillic version of that excerpt of the diary

11     and that should be it.  We will upload it with the Court's permission to

12     do that, and with that that's my apology to Mr. Zecevic.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.  In terms of the comity which

14     is necessary for the courts to function properly, I'm sure that the

15     Chamber even before Mr. Zecevic acknowledges your apology is grateful for

16     your explanation.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I just wanted to thank Mr. Hannis for the apology

18     and for the explanation.  I made the objection yesterday obviously -- I

19     wasn't successful as Your Honours recall with my objection, but now I

20     think we have discussed it afterwards and we will remedy the situation.

21     Thank you very much.

22             MR. HANNIS:  And with that, Your Honour, I'm ready to resume with

23     the witness if there's nothing else.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So we'll lower the blinds so the witness may take

25     the stand.

Page 14929

 1             Sorry, before we do that, the -- we go back into private session

 2     so matters to which the Chamber would speak.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             The Chamber notes that we are coming towards the end of the most

11     recent batting order for Prosecution witnesses, and we will appreciate

12     receiving the order for October to the end of the Prosecution's case.  Is

13     it possible to provide that by the end of this week?

14             MR. HANNIS:  I know Ms. Pidwell has a provisional batting order

15     for the remaining witnesses that's been circulated within the team.  I

16     think there were a couple of witnesses that we're trying to confirm for

17     the dates in question, but that's something that we could provide to you

18     I would say probably tomorrow.  I think Ms. Pidwell's gone home this

19     afternoon, but I think we could get that to you tomorrow.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             Related to that, the Chamber notes that the Prosecution has today

22     made a filing notifying the Chamber of pre-existing protective measures

23     which apply to 13 witnesses still to be called.  Asking first the

24     Prosecution, is it intended to call any of these witnesses before the

25     middle of October so that expedited responses from the Defence, if any,

Page 14930

 1     are needed?

 2             And the second question is to the Defence, whether they do intend

 3     to respond to the notification at all.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  With regard to the first question, Your Honour,

 5     again I have to confer with Ms. Pidwell.  I might be able to find out

 6     that information this afternoon or otherwise I can advise you tomorrow if

 7     that's adequate.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, we do intend to respond to this

10     motion.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             So we'll have to wait for the response from the Prosecution

13     tomorrow.

14             And last matter, on the 17th of September, 2010, Zupljanin

15     Defence document was marked for identification pending translation.  We

16     understand that the translation is now available and so the document can

17     be de-MFI'd.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yeah, just confirm it's 2D110.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We have it on the record now.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  The document in question, Your Honours, is 2D110

21     MFI, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Judge.

24             The -- now we lower the blinds so the witness can be escorted

25     back to the stand.

Page 14931

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir.

 3             Good afternoon to you, sir.  Before I invite Mr. Hannis to resume

 4     his examination-in-chief, I remind you you're still on your oath.

 5             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                           WITNESS:  ST-215 [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

10        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  I only have a few questions left for

11     you, and I think I need to go in private session for the first couple as

12     they may touch on your identity.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

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Page 14932

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  And we are back in open session, Your Honours.

23             MR. HANNIS:

24        Q.   In September or October of 1992, did you have occasion to travel

25     to Visegrad municipality?

Page 14933

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   And on that occasion did you see what appeared to be to you some

 3     sort of paramilitary formation in the town?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us about that.  What did they look like?  Did you

 6     ask anybody who it was?  What did you learn about them?

 7        A.   In front of a building from which a black flag flew I saw a group

 8     of people, and I asked the president of the municipality of Visegrad who

 9     was with me who those people were, and he told me -- I think his name is

10     Lukic.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what this black flag looked like?  Was it a

12     simple plain black flag or was there any kind of emblem on it?

13        A.   It was a flag with a skull.

14        Q.   Do you remember the first name of the Mr. Lukic you were told

15     about?

16        A.   I think his first name was Milan, Milan Lukic or some such.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And from whom did you get the information about this

18     group?  Who told you about them?

19        A.   Brano Savovic, the president of Visegrad municipality told me.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. HANNIS:  If we could show the witness 65 ter 1467.

22        Q.   Coming on your screen in a moment, Witness, is a document that

23     appears to be a military telegram dated the 10th of September, 1992.  And

24     it says -- my English translation says:

25             "At the request of representatives of Zvornik Serb municipality

Page 14934

 1     and the SJB and with the aim of resolving the issue of the collection

 2     centre in Divic and releasing the civilian population of Muslim

 3     nationality that are at the collection centre to the territory of

 4     Kalesija and Kladanj, they are asking to be authorised the possibility of

 5     transferring these people to the above territories through the light

 6     infantry brigade."

 7             Did you know that there were still Muslim civilians detained in

 8     Divic in September of 1992?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And do you know what authorities from Zvornik Serb municipality

11     would have made this request?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Thank you.  One last question just to clarify something that was

14     discussed yesterday.  At transcript page 14861, I don't know if you will

15     remember, we were looking at the document that formed the Crisis Staff in

16     December of 1991.  And I'd asked you if you could help me with a couple

17     of acronyms at the bottom of the page where it said any political

18     negotiations with the SDA were forbidden except for people who were

19     authorised to do so by GO, and your answer said GO stands for

20     Executive Board.  My question:  Is that the same thing as what's

21     occasionally referred to as the Main Board of the SDS, at the highest

22     level of the SDS?

23        A.   I think that we spoke about that referring to the municipality

24     rather than the Main Board.

25             MR. HANNIS:  If we can show the witness Exhibit P436.

Page 14935

 1        Q.   I'm sorry, Witness, I just want to be sure I am clear about this.

 2     And the other acronym was MO, which I think you said stood for local

 3     boards.

 4        A.   Local board, yes.

 5        Q.   So in the context of this document, does that mean local boards

 6     within Zvornik municipality?

 7        A.   In Zvornik municipality there was a Municipal Board which some

 8     people also called Main Board, and in addition there were local boards.

 9     So there were local boards and Municipal Boards.  And this abbreviation

10     stood for the members of the Municipal Board.

11        Q.   Okay.  And "GO" means the Executive Board of the SDS in Zvornik

12     municipality?

13        A.   No, no, no.  Since this was a document of the municipality, the

14     reference was to the members of the local board and of the Municipal

15     Board.  The Municipal Board is a higher-ranking body than the local

16     board.

17        Q.   And I'm sorry, "GO" refers to what, the Executive Board of the

18     SDS in Zvornik?

19        A.   This refers to Zvornik.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  I don't have any further questions for

21     you now.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

Page 14936

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   I'm about to start with a general question.  If you could, as it

 3     were, order the events in Zvornik and classify them in time and in place,

 4     could you perhaps make a -- make a ladder of events for us to be able to

 5     orient ourselves?

 6        A.   If I were to structure the political activities in Zvornik, I

 7     would structure it in three parts.  The first phase would be from the

 8     elections to the establishment of the joint bodies in Bosnia-Herzegovina

 9     at municipal level.  That went on until the end of 1991.  The second

10     phase is the beginning of the end of the functioning of the authorities

11     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which went from the end of 1991 to the beginning

12     of 1992.  And the third phase would be the war in which there was

13     complete anarchy until the arrest of the paramilitaries in Zvornik, and

14     only then did government start functioning in Zvornik municipality,

15     government or state authorities.

16        Q.   Let us be more precise.  If you agree with me, we will limit that

17     war time-period from the 6th of April until the arrival of the special

18     unit, right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I'm not so much interested in the first period but the second

21     period of the crumbling of authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Could you

22     make a list of the causes of the crisis but without a deep analysis?

23        A.   I believe that it's well-known to everybody.  There was

24     Yugoslavia as a joint state.  Bosnia-Herzegovina was an integral part of

25     Yugoslavia.  (redacted), from the very

Page 14937

 1     first moment until it ceased to work, practically half the time was used

 2     to deal with the issues of tackling the crisis in former Yugoslavia

 3     without its affecting Bosnia-Herzegovina and its breakup.  And the effect

 4     was the following.  Decisions were taken to mitigate what was the

 5     consequence of the demands of the Muslims and the Croats to nullify

 6     everything that originated from the federal level.  And so the proposal

 7     was formulated that the Serbs -- or rather, that Bosnia-Herzegovina

 8     remain in a joint state and that some democratic matters should be

 9     defined that would make possible good relations among the ethnicities.

10             There was also the proposal to establish a council of peoples

11     where there would be no down-voting of any side and where essential

12     issues could be regulated, and all that was part of the Cutileiro Plan

13     which was also signed.  However, the plan didn't come into effect and

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina basically ceased to exist and the authorities fell

15     apart.  As a consequence, many people started appearing at places where

16     they didn't belong.  There were people who had doubtful qualities.

17     Everything was based on the ethnic -- was based on ethnicity, on ethnic

18     grounds.  A big problem was the conflict with the JNA.  The Muslims and

19     Croats were attacking it, whereas we still saw it as a joint army, the

20     task of which was to preserve the peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

21     Yugoslavia.  Of course that had an effect on Zvornik municipality too.

22     From the level of the republic, the problem descended to the

23     municipalities.  That would be it in a nutshell.

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14938

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13   (redacted)

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show 1D03, on the

16     screens, 4415.

17             Let us move to the following page immediately, where we will see

18     the contents.  The following page.  Right.  Let us enlarge the right half

19     and we also need the English version.

20             I think that we have both versions now.

21        Q.   Witness, you can see here the decisions of the Crisis Staff.  The

22     first one is the decision on the declaration of the state of war in the

23     territory of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik.  You commented that

24     yesterday; correct?  Now the second decision is the decision regarding

25     restrictions on the disposal of strategic stockpile.  Do you remember

Page 14939

 1     that the Crisis Staff adopted this decision?

 2        A.   Well, I couldn't say anything about particular about it now.

 3        Q.   The introduction of work obligation, I believe that you said

 4     something about that to the Prosecutor yesterday, and the decision on the

 5     introduction of a curfew.  There's also the decision on the establishment

 6     of a provisional government.  Can you see it?  And it says down there

 7     that the Crisis Staff also issued some orders, such as the order on

 8     general mobilisation, the order on the marking of vehicles, and the order

 9     on the mobilisation of civilians.  After that you can see the enactments

10     of the provisional government?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You will agree with me that these basic strategic decisions were

13     first adopted by the Crisis Staff; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   After that the provisional government took over power in Zvornik

16     municipality?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And the provisional government continued to make all crucial

19     decisions; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this gazette with

22     all regulations is a very lengthy document.  I only asked to -- for its

23     contents to be displayed so that we may see the extent of the legislative

24     activities of the authorities in Zvornik municipality.  And since the

25     table of contents is a relatively small portion of the entire document, I

Page 14940

 1     seek to tender that into evidence.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  The -- we were just wondering, Mr. Cvijetic, whether

 4     the nature of this document is not such that it could be conveniently

 5     placed in the law library.  I take your point about seeking only to

 6     tender the page in interest of economy, but I see certain practical

 7     problems about that course.

 8             Does the Prosecution have a view on this?

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I don't have any question about the

10     authenticity of this, and particular enactments may be something relevant

11     and I'd like to argue about it at the end of the case, and I think your

12     suggestion to perhaps add it to the law library is something that would

13     be acceptable to the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will accept this

16     suggestion and I will move on.  That it becomes part of the law library.

17             Can we now look at 1D03-4368, please.

18        Q.   Witness, I didn't want to repeat this.  You saw the decision on

19     the declaration of the state of war in the municipality of Zvornik, and

20     then on the same day the order on general mobilisation was adopted.  Do

21     you recall that order?

22        A.   This is from day three -- actually, the 8th of April.  I cannot

23     remember specifically, but I don't dispute that it was adopted.

24        Q.   Adopted at a meeting of the Crisis Staff.  I'm asking you that

25     because you were a member of the Crisis Staff.  Can you confirm the

Page 14941

 1     authenticity of this document?

 2        A.   I cannot confirm its authenticity, but I'm not disputing that a

 3     decision of this nature was adopted.

 4        Q.   Just like the decision on the declaration of the state of war?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  I rise just to perhaps out of an

 7     abundance of caution suggest that we have a redaction there with the

 8     identification of the witness as being a member of a small body.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't mind moving into private

11     session because I'm going to be showing other documents of this small

12     body, so perhaps there would be no need then to redact the transcript.  I

13     do accept your suggestion, Your Honours.

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps it would be better

20     to move into private session.  I'm going to be going through all the

21     documents now of the Crisis Staff and some other documents, so perhaps it

22     would be wiser to move into private session.

23             JUDGE HALL:  It appears that that's simpler at this stage.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 14942











11 Pages 14942-14943 redacted. Private session.















Page 14944

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25                           [Open session]

Page 14945

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Back in open session, Your Honours.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Witness, could you please tell us again the name of the president

 4     because the transcript is incorrect.  Could you say it slowly.

 5        A.   The president of the temporary government is Branko Grujic.

 6        Q.   If you're able to recall, can you please tell us who the other

 7     members were; and if you speak slowly because of the interpreters.

 8        A.   All I can remember is that the secretary of national defence was

 9     still Stevo Ivanovic.  One of the members was Stevo Radic.  I do not

10     really remember the others.  I couldn't say.

11        Q.   Very well.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

13     tender this document because I think it's very relevant to the events in

14     Zvornik.  I would like to tender that as a Defence exhibit, please.

15             MR. HANNIS:  No objection.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D378, Your Honours.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   We're going to look at two documents now, two exhibits -- or

20     actually, two decisions -- actually, a number of decisions of the

21     government, the temporary government.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can we look at 1D03-4378.  We

23     need to look at the right-hand side of the document.

24        Q.   Witness, sir, this is a decision of the temporary government on

25     the establishment of a special unit of the Territorial Defence.  You can

Page 14946

 1     read the contents, just acquaint yourself with the contents of the

 2     decision.  Are you aware on the basis of this decision or on the basis of

 3     your personal knowledge what the unit was that was granted this special

 4     status?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Do you know that this decision was adopted on the establishment

 7     of the special unit?

 8        A.   No, I didn't know about this.

 9        Q.   All right.  Then I'm going to remind you about what unit this is

10     and I'm going to do that with our next document.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can we look at 1D03-4403

12     instead of this one, please.

13        Q.   You can see here what this unit is precisely.  Pursuant to this

14     approval, the temporary government secured funds for the procurement of

15     uniforms.  That refers to the Igor Markovic unit.  Are you aware that

16     that was one of the names of the unit that was under the command of Zuco?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   The temporary government thus was financing one of the volunteer

19     units.  Are you aware of this information, that it was being financed

20     through the Territorial Defence?

21        A.   No.  I was aware that there were payments through the

22     Territorial Defence because I had the opportunity to see that in certain

23     documents.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are two very

25     important decisions from the Zvornik municipality area, and I believe

Page 14947

 1     that we have reason to adopt this document also on the approval on the

 2     establishment of the special TO unit and also this one on the approval

 3     for the provision of materiel and manufacture of uniforms.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, just for the record, the previous

 5     document, I don't think any of the witness's answers justified getting

 6     that document in.  However, I'm satisfied regarding the authenticity of

 7     both these documents.  We -- these are documents the OTP received from

 8     sources that lead us to feel quite comfortable that these are authentic

 9     and were made at the time and say what they say on the screen.  So I

10     don't object to admission of either one.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D379, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic --

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have to repeat, there were two

15     documents.  I have to repeat, there were two documents.  I am talking

16     about the first document, 1D03-4378 is a decision on the establishment of

17     the unit; and the second document, 1D03-4403, on the procurement of

18     equipment and uniforms for the special units -- unit.  So I think the two

19     documents are connected.  This is why I wanted to tender them.

20             MR. HANNIS:  [Microphone not activated]

21             I have no objection except to indicate that the last document I

22     see only refers to supply of fabrics from manufacturing uniforms and no

23     reference to equipment.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for clarification, Your Honours, document

Page 14948

 1     1D03-4378 will be Exhibit 1D379 and document 1D03-4403 will be 1D380,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, I'm just curious about what it is

 4     you're seeking to show with these two documents.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I intend to show

 6     just three or four more documents, and I would like to deal with the -- I

 7     would like to proceed by subject matter that the provisional government

 8     dealt with.  It is our submission which I'll put briefly.  The

 9     provisional government took decisions that were within the remit of the

10     state.  In Zvornik a situation was created that Zvornik became a state

11     within a state.  It had its army, its police, its government, they take

12     decisions from the remit of the state; and now I proceed by subject

13     matter.  I have now arrived at the judiciary and I have one or two more

14     decisions and I will finish this topic with -- just with two or three

15     more documents.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, if I may, before we proceed, you're saying

17     that the provisional government of the TO established a special unit, the

18     purpose of which was to secure the territory of the Serbian areas in

19     Zvornik.  And then you move on to show another document that suggests

20     that Igor Markovic, who was in command of some of the volunteer groups

21     under Zuco, was put in charge of the special unit.  So you're proving a

22     link between the governments and the volunteer groups; is that correct or

23     have I misunderstood?

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] You understood correctly,

25     Your Honour.

Page 14949

 1             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  I need to then interject and ask a

 2     question because I'm not sure who Igor Markovic was.  And I don't know

 3     that we've had evidence that he was the commander of any unit.  I think

 4     the unit was named for this person, but I think that was somebody who was

 5     killed.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You are correct indeed, Mr. Hannis.  But my

 7     question was merely whether Mr. Zecevic [sic], through the witness, was

 8     trying to show that the provisional government in Zvornik was financing

 9     the activities of a volunteer unit.  And I understood his answer to be

10     positive.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We have seen

12     evidence from witnesses who were in Zvornik and we have also seen

13     payrolls, so that is not a contested issue.  Earlier evidence has shown

14     that the unit in question was named after a member of that unit who was

15     killed, and that is this volunteer unit commanded by Zuco.

16             May I proceed, Your Honours?

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please do.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document

19     1D03-4381.  I apologise, the left-hand side of the document is what we

20     need.

21        Q.   Witness, this is a decision of the provisional government dated

22     27 April about the disengagement of the judicial -- of judicial staff at

23     the Public Prosecutor's Office in Zvornik.  Do you know that such a

24     decision was adopted?

25        A.   No, I didn't know that it was adopted.  I cannot confirm its

Page 14950

 1     authenticity, but I also do not contest that it was adopted.

 2        Q.   I'll ask you the same question about all decisions, but please

 3     focus your attention on the introduction.  The provisional government

 4     bases all its decisions on Article 5 of the decision on the declaration

 5     of the state of war; can you see that?  On the left side at the top.

 6        A.   Yes, I see it.

 7        Q.   So can you confirm that the provisional government relied

 8     exclusively on the decision on the declaration of the state of war in the

 9     adoption of all of its decisions?  We have seen that on all documents.

10        A.   Well, you're a lawyer so you're better qualified than me to see

11     that it's correct.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that this

13     is a very important decision.  I seek to tender it and I will proceed to

14     show another important decision that affects the judiciary.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, I see from your last question to the

17     witness with which -- to which the witness demurred is, I assume, the

18     alert to the Chamber of an argument which you're going to make at the end

19     of the exercise, and it is to that end that you are using these documents

20     as foundation for argument, rather than purporting for there to be any

21     nexus between the document and the witness?

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the foundation for

23     tendering this document -- these documents is the fact that the Crisis

24     Staff decided to declare the state of war, and based on that the

25     provisional government adopted a series of decisions that are extremely

Page 14951

 1     important and they basically show that the state of war was indeed in

 2     effect in Zvornik municipality.  And the witness was in Zvornik

 3     throughout the period I cannot now say as to --

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D381, Your Honours.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Cvijetic.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following

10     document:  1D03-4407.  It's the right-hand side that we need.

11        Q.   Witness, here too we see why the previous decision was adopted.

12     We saw there that persons holding positions of the regular court and

13     Public Prosecutor's Office were replaced, and here we see that a war time

14     military court is being established.  Do you know that this was the case?

15     And we also see here that this is based on the decision of the

16     declaration of the state of war.

17        A.   No, I don't know that.  I cannot confirm the authenticity.  But I

18     believe that such a decision existed, indeed.

19        Q.   So you allow for the possibility of the existence of this

20     decision?

21        A.   Yes.  I mean, looking at the document.

22        Q.   I would just like to hear whether you know who the president of

23     the war time military court was?

24        A.   No, I don't.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must seek to

Page 14952

 1     tender this document because it belongs with the previous one because

 2     once the regular court and the Public Prosecutor's Office were replaced,

 3     were no longer in function, now a war time military court was

 4     established.  And this is the basis for my subsequent dealings with the

 5     witness; that's why I seek to tender this document as well.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, logically I suppose we having admitted

 8     the previous document it would be odd not to admit this, but the witness

 9     himself has used a word which the Chamber itself didn't articulate before

10     and which is relevant to the admissibility of this document as well as

11     the previous document and that is the word "authenticity."  Could you

12     assist us in that regard?

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these documents --

14     was disclosed before and I only have documents contained in the

15     Official Gazette of the municipality of Zvornik.  Issue 2 and issue 3

16     contain these decisions, and the witness himself doesn't doubt its

17     authenticity.  We received the documents that -- because the Prosecution

18     disclosed them.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that they are

20     authentic.  I can only say that I think they are.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, do you have any idea as to how this

22     court was going to function and who would be the other members of the

23     court?  Or was this all left with Captain Stanojevic?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not a member of the

25     provisional government.  I do not know the intention of this document or

Page 14953

 1     this decision.  I don't know what its purpose was, nor do I know how the

 2     decision was implemented, and I don't know the man either.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  If I may, Your Honour.  Again, I don't have a

 4     question about authenticity because these documents are part of the

 5     greater collection that was received by us all at the same time and they

 6     appear to be related and consistent with other evidence that's in this

 7     case and perhaps other evidence that I may know from another case, but

 8     I'm not contesting authenticity.  But the last two documents, the

 9     relevance of them at this point is less clear to me than some of the

10     earlier ones.  And part of my objection is the way the questions are

11     asked and the way it's presented to the witness, where Mr. Cvijetic is

12     partly testifying about what this document means and what it shows about

13     how that court was done away with and this one was established for that

14     purpose.  And this witness doesn't know and he hasn't been able to

15     comment to that effect.  And I don't want at the end of the case

16     Mr. Cvijetic jumping up and pointing to these documents and saying, "See,

17     these show what I said they show."  Well, he's not a witness, so they

18     don't show that.

19             So I don't have an objection about authenticity and I can see

20     that some inferences and arguments can be made, but not to the level

21     Mr. Cvijetic is putting for them at this point.  So other than that I

22     don't know how you want to proceed with it, but that's my question, the

23     relevance isn't so obvious to me about these last two yet.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Well, as I said, having admitted the previous

25     document, it would be awkward not to admit this, so this too is admitted

Page 14954

 1     and marked.  But in terms of your last observation, Mr. Hannis, the only

 2     way I can say it is you can trust the Chamber in analysing the evidence

 3     to separate evidence from submissions disguised as questions.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Admitted as Exhibit 1D382, Your Honours.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure when

 6     the break is due, but possibly now would be a convenient time to break.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I think it's 3.40, which is about seven minutes

 8     away, but if you feel it is convenient to do it now we could as easily

 9     take the break now.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Fine with me.  I can also

11     continue, but all right we can have the break now.

12                           --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic, you may continue.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Please bear with me, Your Honour.

16     I'm getting tangled in all this technology.

17        Q.   Witness, I think yesterday you were shown a document about the

18     establishment of the TO command in the Serb municipality of Zvornik.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just in case, could we please have

20     P1605 - I hope that's the correct number.  It used to be 65 ter 2605.  We

21     need the left-hand side of the document.  Yes.

22        Q.   Witness, I also wanted to double-check, and this was tendered

23     yesterday through you, do you recall having seen this document which is a

24     decision to form the Territorial Defence command of the Serbian

25     municipality of Zvornik.  It was issued by the provisional government.

Page 14955

 1     In Article 1 it is stated that Mr. Marko Pavlovic is appointed commander

 2     of that Territorial Defence.  Do you remember being asked about this

 3     document by the Prosecutor?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I won't dwell on it any further because it's already

 6     an exhibit.  Rather, I will try to go through other two documents with

 7     you to see how this TO commander changed his positions in the

 8     municipality of Zvornik.  Let's look at another document, which is

 9     P317.6.

10             Witness, you can see here that this is a document of the military

11     command of the East Bosnia Corps.  It is signed by Colonel Nikola Dencic.

12     We can see that this document establishes the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

13     Were you aware of such a brigade being established?

14        A.   I was.

15        Q.   Then I believe you're also familiar with the next fact, which is

16     something you mentioned in your statement, and that is that it was formed

17     out of members of the TO and that the Zvornik TO actually made part of

18     this new brigade?

19        A.   I don't think you're correct.  The infantry brigade was

20     established by the army.  I don't know how, when, and where, but it

21     wasn't the TO that established it; that is certain.

22        Q.   Then I'm afraid you misunderstood me.  I wasn't trying to assert

23     that.  I'm only asserting that some -- as we can see from the decision

24     that the TO HQ is to be transformed into the command of the Zvornik

25     Infantry Brigade?

Page 14956

 1        A.   Well, I guess it is so.

 2        Q.   Therefore, this clarifies it.  The army established that brigade

 3     by incorporating the TO HQ in Zvornik into its force?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 5        Q.   As you can see further down the decision a hand-over is referred

 6     to, to be executed by Major Marko-Branko Popovic, who was the current

 7     commander, and he was appointed to another position which was liaison

 8     officer with the FRY.  Is this not Marko Pavlovic or his other name?

 9        A.   I did hear that he came under an assumed name or a false name.

10     Somewhere I seem to have read that his first name was Branko, although

11     I'm not positive.  In any case, this may well be the case, as is stated

12     in the document.

13        Q.   Yes, I agree.  We can see that this was done on May 30th, 1992,

14     when he was to move to his new position within a military unit.  Can we

15     see that in the document, in particular in item 3?

16        A.   I'm afraid I don't follow.

17        Q.   He was supposed to move to another duty in the east --

18        A.   Yes, we can see that in the document.

19        Q.   Very well.  I wanted to show you the last document concerning

20     this man.  It is already an exhibit -- sorry, I'll -- the next one I'm

21     about to show is not an exhibit.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D03-4408,

23     the left-hand side of the document, please.

24        Q.   Witness, you see here that the provisional government later on,

25     after this attempt to move Mr. Pavlovic to the military unit on the 16th

Page 14957

 1     of June, issued this decision to appoint commander of the unified

 2     military territorial command of the Serb municipality of Zvornik.  As you

 3     can see at item III, again Marko Pavlovic is being appointed commander.

 4     Can you see that?

 5        A.   Yes, I can.

 6        Q.   Can you confirm that Mr. Marko Pavlovic, following the

 7     establishment of the brigade, remained in the territory of the

 8     municipality of Zvornik and he was assigned a new duty by the provisional

 9     government?

10        A.   It is true that after the Zvornik Brigade was established, he did

11     not leave Zvornik immediately, although I don't know where he was at that

12     time and what his position was.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, I'm a little bit confused here.  Is

14     it your position that the Marko Pavlovic is the same man as the

15     Marko - what was it? - Marko-Branko Popovic in the previous document?

16     Does the witness confirm that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same man.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given that this line

20     of document relies on the document we saw yesterday whereby he was

21     appointed commander of the TO HQ, I want to tender this document as well

22     because it indicates how he moved from one position to the next in the

23     territory of the municipality of Zvornik.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D383, Your Honours.

Page 14958

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Witness, by virtue of these documents I wanted to deal with a

 3     period --

 4             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  Didn't that already have an

 5     exhibit number?  Okay.  Which one are we talking about because I thought

 6     that we were talking about the Marko Pavlovic --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab 20.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated]

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, my mistake.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The previous document referred to

11     by Judge Delvoie is already an exhibit and I tendered this last one.

12        Q.   Witness, by virtue of these documents I wanted to cover a period

13     in Zvornik between the 6th of April and the establishment or the

14     introduction of the special police unit in the area.  Would you agree

15     with me that Zvornik with its provisional government during that period

16     functioned as a mini state basically?

17        A.   Between the 6th of April and the arrival of the special brigade,

18     republican authorities basically did not have any power in that area.

19     They did not function.

20        Q.   Yesterday you were asked something about the police station

21     chief, and at a certain point you told my learned friend that it was

22     precisely during that period that position was held by Mr. Milos Pantelic

23     who hails from Loznica and not from Republika Srpska; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Since you said that the central authorities of Republika Srpska

Page 14959

 1     held no sway over what was happening in Zvornik, another way to

 2     corroborate that is to show what we did and that is that it was basically

 3     the local authorities who appointed commanders in the area; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Let's move on to the last period then.  Can you recall when the

 6     special unit entered Zvornik?

 7        A.   They entered Zvornik either in late April --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- late July or early August,

10     although I don't recall the exact date.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Thank you.  It suffices.  As I asked you about the previous

13     period, can you briefly explain this period following the arrival of that

14     unit.  Were there any changes?

15        A.   As of the moment of their arrival in Zvornik, the first thing

16     that was done was to cleanse Zvornik of most paramilitary formations.

17     Most of them were arrested and taken to the prison in Bijeljina.  The

18     rest took to their heels and some took shelter in certain units.  As of

19     that moment, they could no longer function as a unit or a group.  As of

20     that moment in Zvornik there were basically no paramilitary formations as

21     units and they had no influence over any authorities.  The second thing

22     that happened was that immediately following that we held a session of

23     the Municipal Assembly -- let me resume.

24             After that we had a quiet period when the Municipal Assembly

25     could sit in order to fulfil the order of the president to establish

Page 14960

 1     functioning civilian municipal organs.

 2        Q.   Witness, with the arrival of the special unit a new person was

 3     appointed the police chief by a decision of the minister of the interior.

 4     Did you know that person?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you give us an overview or assessment of his work after he

 7     assumed his duty?

 8        A.   I cannot.  I did not control or supervise his work.  What I do

 9     need to say, though, is that from the outset he was simply in a situation

10     which allowed him to organise and staff and equip the MUP of Republika

11     Srpska so that the police could exercise its proper duties.  In other

12     words, he was able to pull his men back from the combat activities and

13     duties they had been assigned to earlier on.

14        Q.   Were his efforts fruitful?  Were there any results?

15        A.   One could feel the results immediately.  As of that moment on,

16     the police became better and better.  They were able to do their job.

17     Another important thing is this, during that period the judiciary became

18     functional, fully functional.  As of that moment there were no longer any

19     collection centres run by paramilitaries.  As of that moment, those who

20     were detained were either moved to the central prison or to military

21     jails.  In other words, they were supervised.

22        Q.   Witness, yesterday you discussed with the Prosecutor your

23     decision -- or rather, not your decision but the decision of the Serb

24     municipality of Bratunac to establish -- apologies.  Not Bratunac.  The

25     Serb municipality --

Page 14961

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, before you go to another topic, it

 2     strikes me that we don't have here on the record the name of that new

 3     person that was appointed chief of the police.  Can you ask the witness

 4     the name of that person.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Witness, you heard the question.

 7        A.   I think his name was Mico Lokancevic.

 8        Q.   Mico could be a nickname and his full name could be Milorad?

 9        A.   Well, we knew him as Mico Lokancevic.

10        Q.   Very well.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I'm going to remind you now about what you said when talking to

14     the Prosecutor, and you said with the arrival of the units these

15     collection centres were abolished and that the Assembly adopted a

16     decision on the formation of the municipal prison in Zvornik.  You

17     mentioned yesterday the adoption of such a decision; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   However, I think that yesterday you had a difference with the

20     Prosecutor about the date of the adoption of the decision on the

21     establishment of the municipal prison in Zvornik.  The Prosecutor said

22     that he didn't have that document on hand at the time.  I think I will

23     show you a document that I think is the one.  It's 1D04 - we submitted

24     the document for translation - document 2983.  And you can see it here.

25     I must admit, my learned friend the Prosecutor is correct.  He did refer

Page 14962

 1     to this date yesterday, the 19th of August, 1992.  So can you correct

 2     yourself in that sense, do you agree with these assertions?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Is this the document that you discussed with the Prosecutor

 5     yesterday about the establishment of the prison?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 9     tender this document.  For the moment we can just mark it for

10     identification.  We were promised by the translation unit that they would

11     have a translation of it for us by tomorrow.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, no objection, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE HALL:  So we'll mark it for identification pending the

15     translation.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D384, marked for identification,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What was the ERN number?

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 0179-8584.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14963

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can this be done in open session?

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree.  I wasn't careful enough.

 8     I agree.  We need to move to private session.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  So we move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14964











11 Pages 14964-14975 redacted. Private session.















Page 14976

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, just one moment, please.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I would indicate it

13     appears we're going to be finishing well before 7.00.  I am advised that

14     the next witness, the Prosecution would request that we not begin with

15     her until tomorrow morning no matter when we finish today because she has

16     just arrived, there's been extensive proofing, and I think she and the

17     Prosecutor would prefer that.  I have discussed it with Defence counsel

18     and I think they have no disagreement with that, if it's okay with you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

22        Q.   Witness, I would first like to ask you about a document that

23     Mr. Cvijetic showed you, it is 1D382, if we could have that up.  This is

24     a document that was the - it's the right-hand page I believe - the

25     decision on the establishment of the war time military court.  Do you

Page 14977

 1     know, Witness, if such a court indeed was actually established and ever

 2     functioned in Zvornik in 1992?

 3        A.   I really cannot remember that a court like that existed in

 4     Zvornik in 1992.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Next if we could look at Exhibit P317.6 I believe.

 6     It was tab 26 of the Defence binder.  Yes.

 7             You were shown this document from Colonel Dencic.  Item number 1

 8     transforms the municipal TO HQ into the command of the Zvornik Infantry

 9     Brigade.  Number 2 says:

10             "Hand-over or take-over of duty between the TO commander and the

11     newly appointed commander of the infantry brigade is to be carried

12     out ..." on a certain date.

13             Now, we understand -- am I correct in understanding that at that

14     time on the 30th of May, 1992, the Zvornik municipal TO commander was

15     Marko Pavlovic; correct?

16        A.   Up until the 30th of May, according to this decision,

17     Marko Pavlovic was the commander.  Based on this decision, someone else

18     should have taken over starting on the 30th of May.

19        Q.   Yes.  And it makes reference to a newly appointed commander of

20     the infantry brigade.  Do you know who that person was?

21        A.   At one point in Zvornik the brigade commander was

22     Lieutenant-Colonel, I think his name was, Vasilic.  Now, whether he was

23     appointed by Dencic or not.  I don't know.

24        Q.   Do you know what date he held that position?

25        A.   I wouldn't know.

Page 14978

 1        Q.   Item number 3 which gives us information indicating that

 2     Marko Pavlovic's true name was Branko Popovic, and it looks like

 3     apparently that's something that Colonel Dencic and the East Bosnia Corps

 4     knew, but in Zvornik in the municipal government in town you only knew

 5     him as Marko Pavlovic; correct?  That's the name that appears on the TO

 6     pay sheet, et cetera?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   Item number 3 says he's to be the officer for liaison with the

 9     FRY, with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Do you know if

10     Marko Pavlovic actually took up such a position and what the duties

11     involved?

12        A.   No, I don't.  I don't know it.

13        Q.   Wasn't Marko Pavlovic after the 30th of June -- after the 30th of

14     May, 1992, still actively involved in directing some armed forces in

15     Zvornik, for example, in Kozluk in late June?

16        A.   During our earlier conversations I was saying that even after the

17     establishment of the Zvornik Brigade, Marko Pavlovic remained in Zvornik

18     for some period of time.

19        Q.   And he was involved in directing armed forces; yes?

20        A.   I wouldn't know what he was involved in.  I don't even know

21     whether this order was implemented fully, because at one point both

22     Marko Pavlovic and Lieutenant-Colonel Vasilic were present in Zvornik.

23     Who was in charge of what, I don't know.

24        Q.   Well, you told us yesterday about the people from Djulici who

25     wanted to leave and you'd been involved in those discussions and how you

Page 14979

 1     were away when they actually left.  You came back and found out that

 2     Marko Pavlovic had had the military-aged men taken out of that group of

 3     people wanting to leave and detained them, and you had an argument with

 4     him about that; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Could we look at 1D383.

 7        Q.   You were also shown this one by Mr. Cvijetic.  It's dated I think

 8     the 16th of June and it's a provisional government decision on

 9     establishment of the single military and territorial command, so some two

10     weeks plus after that document we just looked at.  And now the

11     provisional government in item III says that:

12             "Marko Pavlovic has been appointed for commander of this military

13     and territorial command."

14             What is this body that's being talked about?  This is not the

15     Zvornik Brigade, is it?

16        A.   According to the document, it was not the Zvornik Brigade, but I

17     really don't know what it is.

18        Q.   Yeah, item II says:

19             "Organisation, combat-readiness, single command, and combat use

20     of independent formations ..."

21             Do you know who those people were?

22        A.   No, I don't.

23        Q.   At page 35, line 9, you were asked about the new police [Realtime

24     transcript read in error "political"] chief, Lokancevic's efforts, when

25     he took up the job in August.  And you mentioned that you could feel the

Page 14980

 1     results immediately and that things got better in Zvornik.  You said:

 2             "As of that moment those who were detained were either moved to

 3     the central prison or to the military jails."

 4             But you remember we looked at a document this morning that showed

 5     us as of the 10th of September there were still a number of Muslim

 6     civilians detained in Divic.  Do you remember that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do remember having been shown that.

 8        Q.   And do you remember that people actually still were in detention

 9     in Divic in September?

10        A.   No, I'm sorry.  I don't remember that.

11        Q.   That's okay.  At page 43, line 14, you were asked about the

12     operation carried out to round-up the Yellow Wasps and the other groups

13     in late July 1992.  Were you aware that that round-up was conducted not

14     only by Mr. Karisik's special unit but also by members of a special unit

15     of the federal MUP led by Milorad Davidovic, did you know that?

16        A.   I found out about that, yes.

17        Q.   And did you know it also included members of the VRS --

18             MR. HANNIS:  I see Mr. Zecevic on his feet.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I just wanted to correct the transcript.  On page

20     54, 19, it is recorded the new political chief.  I think you said the

21     police chief.

22             MR. HANNIS:  I think that's clear and we'll leave it at that.

23        Q.   I'm sorry, I don't know if you were able to answer my question

24     about whether you know members of the VRS also participated in the

25     round-up of the Yellow Wasps.

Page 14981

 1        A.   I don't know about the VRS and their role.

 2        Q.   Lastly I want to ask you about the meeting in Sekovici where you

 3     informed Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Mandic about the problems and the crimes

 4     that you were aware of that had been taking place in Zvornik.  And if I

 5     may, I'd like to hand you a hard copy of your statement from 1992 [sic],

 6     and if you could -- I've put a little blue sticky on the page where I

 7     want you to turn to.

 8             Paragraph 130 if you find it.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And in answering Mr. Cvijetic's questions about when that date

11     may have been just earlier this afternoon, you said that you had said it

12     was several weeks and you were now allowing for the possibility that it

13     was in June.  But yesterday when I asked you about this at page 14889,

14     line 10, I said:

15             "Q.  In terms of the date of the meeting in Sekovici, in your

16     statement in 2002 you indicated it was a few weeks after the start of the

17     war.  Is that still -- was that still your memory?"

18             And yesterday you said:

19             "Yes."

20             Do you remember that?

21        A.   Several weeks I said.

22        Q.   No.  I'm reading the transcript.  You said "a few weeks."

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to be fair to

24     the witness, he should be presented with all of his answers.  He said

25     initially late in May, then he said several weeks -- he didn't say couple

Page 14982

 1     of weeks.  And my colleague Mr. Zecevic is telling me that it's page

 2     14860 page.  And then later on he said several weeks.  And finally he

 3     allowed for the number I put to him.  I think the witness should be

 4     presented with all the answers he had provided.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Well, that would have been good to do on

 6     cross-examination as well.  And the point I'm asking about is page 14889,

 7     which was some 29 pages after the others, after I'd gone through some

 8     things with him to try to get him to see if reading his statement

 9     refreshed his memory about what he said in 2002, which is where he said

10     "a few weeks."

11             JUDGE HALL:  But in any event, I'm lost as to what turns on this,

12     Mr. Hannis.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I don't want to discuss it in front of

14     the witness because he understands a fair bit of English, but I can

15     explain to you why I think it's important and you'll see the Defence

16     thinks it's important too.  That's why they spent so much time on it.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So, Mr. Witness, how many weeks after the meeting

18     was it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the first occasion I said

20     "several weeks."  However, while giving answers to both sides I was not

21     at the time certain of the date when the events took place.  I allowed

22     for the possibility of it having happened in late May or early June, as I

23     was told by the Defence lawyer.  But I'm not certain myself.  I didn't

24     write it down anywhere.  I really cannot say that with any degree of

25     certainty.  I wouldn't know what date it was.

Page 14983

 1             MR. HANNIS:  May I continue or do you want to hear my argument

 2     about why I'm spending so much time on this?

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, not yet, but I don't think we'll get any

 4     closer.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] -- given the witness's

 6     last answer to Judge Harhoff's question, in summary what he has said.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Well, in summary, Your Honour, one of the things I

 8     need to clear up is his answer just now, he said, "on the first occasion

 9     I said 'several weeks.'"  I need to ask him what first occasion he's

10     talking about because the first occasion I have a record of is the June

11     2002 statement in which he said "a few weeks."

12             JUDGE HALL:  But I'm looking at his answer.

13             "I am not sure myself.  I didn't write it down anywhere.  I

14     really cannot say with any degree of certainty.  I wouldn't know what

15     date it was."  Is pressing him going to get us any further on this?

16             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I would like to establish a certain

17     chronology concerning what answers he's made about that and an argument

18     to be made from it, but I don't think I should do it in front of the

19     witness.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Well, if you insist, Mr. Hannis.

21             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, I do, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE HALL:  The -- I am looking at the time and I'm wondering

23     how most efficiently to handle this.  Should we take the adjournment now

24     and then when we resume the -- have you deal with this before the witness

25     is escorted back to the stand?

Page 14984

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Either that or we could take him out now and I could

 2     speak for 10 or 15 minutes and then we could take the recess and resume

 3     with the witness after we've decided how much and to what extent I'm

 4     allowed to go further into it.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Okay.

 6             Well, the latter course.

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  I really do apologise, Your Honours.  If my

 8     learned friend Mr. Hannis is intending to speak 10 or 15 minutes, I think

 9     it's almost for final arguments not for -- why 15 minutes' discussion?

10     And I really do apologise.  I'm a little bit concerned which kind of

11     submissions you will make for 15 minutes.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I think Your Honours should wait and hear what I

13     have to say and decide whether five minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes

14     is enough.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             The reason that the Prosecution views the question of this date

20     is important is that the earlier the date this witness is giving

21     information to the accused Mico Stanisic about crimes being committed in

22     Zvornik, the more important that is because no action was taken in

23     Zvornik until the end of July.  And you've heard us say before that that

24     really only took place after Minister Ostojic was taken out by the yellow

25     wasps and put on the ground, not because crimes were happening against

Page 14985

 1     non-Serbs and Muslims.  I think from the Defence point of view the later

 2     it happens and the closer to July the better it is for their position.

 3     And what I'm trying to say is when this witness was first asked about the

 4     timing of that event in his written statement in 2002 --

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, but if I may interrupt you there.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I think I see where you're headed.  At the end of

 8     the day, what the evidence is is the witness's testimony.  The fact that

 9     on a previous occasion he may -- or on previous occasions he may have

10     given -- been more precise or given different dates doesn't alter the

11     fact that what we are left with is what he says is, "I really cannot, as

12     I testify today, remember what it is."  And I don't know that there's

13     provision for either side, in this case what you would be seeking to

14     argue to do, to substitute what he would have said on a previous occasion

15     for his testimony in the box.  That's why I ask -- I don't see -- that's

16     why I'm asking what is the point of this exercise in which we're engaged.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, but in citing that question for

18     yourselves and assessing his credibility, you will look at what he said

19     and when he said it, what his motivation was at that time, what

20     information he had, is his memory better in 2002 as opposed to 2010.  And

21     he did say yesterday in a question from me, you indicated it was a few

22     weeks after the start of the war, is that still your memory?  He said

23     yes.  That's what he said yesterday.  And the chronology I'm trying to

24     fill in is that in 2002 he said that in his written statement.  In 2003

25     there was a taped interview with the Prosecution.  He made no change to

Page 14986

 1     it.  In proofing with him Friday, when the investigator had proofed him,

 2     I specifically asked him about paragraph 130, and you'll -- I think

 3     you'll probably get copied on the proofing note, he made no substantive

 4     changes to his statement.  And then on Saturday he met with Mr. Cvijetic

 5     alone for the Defence proofing, and now he's saying, "Oh, maybe it was

 6     June, and it was several weeks."  No, that's a factor for you to

 7     consider.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Gentlemen, please.

 9             But, Mr. Hannis, with respect, the -- whatever the sequence at

10     the end of the day, aren't we left with a witness -- aren't we left with

11     testimony from the mouth of this witness which is unreliable to the -- in

12     the sense that the -- insofar as this is a point which is of major

13     importance for the Prosecution that the effect of the testimony of this

14     witness is that it is so unreliable the Prosecution must be looking

15     somewhere else in order to establish this fact?  And the -- I know what

16     Mr. -- well, I believe I know what Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Cvijetic were

17     about to say, but the -- it isn't necessary for them to respond.  I mean,

18     the answer -- the suggestion -- the implication -- the -- what's the rule

19     ?  Post hoc ergo propter, you're falling into that trap.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, but this witness requested

21     protective measures and he told you one of the reasons that he wanted

22     protective measures was because Serbs who testify against Serbs at the

23     Tribunal are viewed as traitors.  Set aside -- no suggestion of improper

24     conduct on the part of the Defence.  The mere fact that he's here and

25     he's being questioned by Serb attorneys for Serb accused in The Hague is

Page 14987

 1     a factor that you may think about whether or not that influences him in

 2     answering those questions.  That's -- I think that's a legitimate factor

 3     for you to consider.  And I would just like to put the chronology in the

 4     record or at least put in paragraphs 130 and 131 from his statement so

 5     you see what he said the first time he was asked it where he had no

 6     concern about speaking in court and no reason to be fabricating the date

 7     at a point in time that was years closer to the events than we are today.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated]

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try.  First of

11     all, it's quite clear the witness is very clear throughout his testimony

12     and in his previous statements he said "several weeks."  After that he

13     told Mr. Hannis that this was in May, that it was in late May, he allowed

14     for the possibility that it was in June.  And particularly we put it in

15     the context of the liberation of Crni Vrh.  So Mr. Hannis can say when

16     the passage was cleared between Zvornik and Sekovici via Crni Vrh, and

17     then we will know that the meeting took place after that date.  It's

18     quite simple.  So I don't see why -- I really think it's not proper to

19     mistreat the witness even though it's a Prosecution witness.

20             As for all the other situations, the conduct of Serbian lawyers,

21     Serbian witnesses, I really believe that comments like that are

22     inappropriate because if that is the position then what are we going to

23     say because that position can apply to members of other ethnic groups who

24     come to testify here.  That means if a person is a Muslim or a Croat,

25     then by the very nature of things, according to what Mr. Hannis says that

Page 14988

 1     person would hate Serbs or their testimony should not believed.  So I

 2     really don't see any consistency in the position of the Prosecution on

 3     this matter.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  I agree with you, Mr. Zecevic, that I think that

 5     Mr. Hannis's comments in that regard were ill-advised.  In the Chamber's

 6     view this matter has been taken as far as it can go.  No useful purpose

 7     would be served by pressing the witness further on this issue.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Although it is obviously a live issue as to when the

10     passage was cleared, but as I indicated earlier to the extent that there

11     is controversy on the point of this witness's evidence is imprecise taken

12     at its highest, it is something on which when the time comes for all of

13     the evidence to be stitched together, the -- I would expect that the

14     Chamber would be directed to evidence other than from this witness on

15     that point.

16             So we would take the adjournment now and come back to complete

17     the re-examination of this witness.

18                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I asked to address you before the

21     witness was brought in because I want you to know, Your Honours, and,

22     Mr. President, that I take to heart your comment about my comments being

23     ill-advised, and I apologise to my colleagues across the way if I gave

24     offence.  I didn't mean to.  By analogy the point I was trying to make in

25     America in a civil rights prosecution of a police officer for excessive

Page 14989

 1     use of force, a police officer who comes in to testify against a fellow

 2     police officer, when meeting with lawyers for that police officer,

 3     it's -- the best-behaved defence attorney can do everything properly, but

 4     that witness feels a subtle coercion, maybe self-induced coercion, but to

 5     be in a position of testifying against his fellow police officer or an

 6     American testifying against an American in a non-American Tribunal with

 7     non-American prosecutors on the other side.  There is, I think, in real

 8     life it's human nature to feel a certain coercion and that's the point I

 9     was trying to make.  And I do apologise to my friends and Your Honours.

10     I wanted to make that statement to you.

11             And with that, I'm ready to have the witness back in.  I

12     understand that you said you don't want me to press him any further on

13     this, but I would like to bring out some of the things he said in his

14     statement 2002 that I think is information that may relate to the

15     argument about when the date occurred that -- I would just like to

16     confirm that he said it then, and I can make my arguments at a later

17     date.  I'm not trying to harass him.  I'm just trying to get that

18     information in the record about what he said to those present, who was

19     present, when Mr. Zugic showed up in the municipality later on,

20     et cetera.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And, if I may add, the point raised by counsel

22     Zecevic that the dates or the time when the passage was cleared is also

23     of some importance to this issue.  So if you would wish to raise this

24     also with the witness.

25             MR. HANNIS:  It is, Your Honour, but I don't know how far I can

Page 14990

 1     get with him on that because I think he's not clear on when that date

 2     was.  And that's something that hopefully there will be other evidence

 3     from other sources.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, in the spirit of co-operation that we

 5     have so far in this case, I understand the -- and I of course accept the

 6     apology of Mr. Hannis.  I know him for quite some time, so I know that he

 7     really didn't meant what he actually said on the record.

 8             However, I believe Your Honours have ruled on this, and I don't

 9     see that we can go now with the -- through another passage or another

10     road around -- around about in order to get to the very same issue

11     because again we are going to be faced with the same problem.  Thank you.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, just for the record, Your Honours, one of the

13     golden rules of cross-examination is to know when to stop, among other

14     rules.  And unfortunately, my learned friend Mr. Hannis didn't stop.  So

15     in his just earlier explanations, he even went further on.  My personal

16     position is the following.  I do not accept his apologies, point number

17     one.  Point number two, I will go through the ADC organs to inform his

18     chief Prosecutor about his behaviour and to take necessary measures

19     because I cannot accept this kind of swinging and then shifting

20     explanations.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Could we have the witness returned to the --

22     escorted back to the stand.  If there is no one in the gallery, I don't

23     know that we have to go through the ritual of lowering the shades.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, while the witness is on his way in,

Page 14991

 1     we've heard what you propose to do, but as counsel for the Defence has

 2     said we don't see that it's going to take us any further than we are.  So

 3     let's move on to something else.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Well, yes, Your Honour.  Part of what I intend to

 5     read to him from his previous statement relates to another area of

 6     questions of Mr. Cvijetic at page 41, line 15, was asking the witness

 7     about the nature of the information this witness informed Mr. Stanisic

 8     and Mr. Mandic about.  I think it goes directly to that.  And he also

 9     asked him about when Mr. Zugic showed up in the municipality, and there's

10     another part of his statement that pertains to that.  That's what I want

11     to ask him about.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MR. HANNIS:

14        Q.   Witness, if you have that statement still in front of you,

15     paragraph 130, still talking about the meeting in Sekovici --

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, if you could wait for the noise of the

17     blinds to ...

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             MR. HANNIS:

20        Q.   Witness, you see that paragraph talking about the meeting, you

21     say:

22             "They told us about events in Sarajevo and that the Ministry of

23     Internal Affairs was being formed."

24             And on my next page further on in the paragraph it says:

25             "Mico Stanisic and Momcilo Mandic were informed of the problems

Page 14992

 1     with the paramilitaries."

 2             And you said at that time:

 3             "I informed them about the paramilitary armies and what they were

 4     doing in a negative sense.  This was before the people moved out."

 5             What you could hear in Zvornik --

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 7             MR. HANNIS:

 8        Q.   -- was that people had been locked up and people had been

 9     killed --

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection

11     in this manner of presentation.  This is a viva voce witness and again

12     through the side door we are bringing in that statement of his.  Again,

13     yesterday we gallantly just allowed this quoting to pass, but I think we

14     need to have some kind of degree in terms of how much of that can be

15     used.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Of course Mr. Cvijetic is correct, and I noted it as

17     well yesterday but I suppose that matter was not in controversy so no

18     harm was done.  But Mr. Hannis, of course, I would remind you of the well

19     settled [realtime transcript read in error "subtle"] procedure that you

20     let the witness read it himself and then you formulate your question.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

22        Q.   Witness, I guess I should have allowed you to read that to

23     yourself and ask you if that refreshes your recollection about what

24     you've said, but since I've now read it out loud, could you tell us if

25     that refreshes your recollection about what you told them at the time?

Page 14993

 1        A.   I talked with you and when we talked about it, about this, I

 2     indicated the corrections which I had after the first interview.  And in

 3     the correction I objected because I said that I had informed them about

 4     paramilitaries, provided information about what they did -- about what I

 5     heard about what they did.  I think you have those corrections too, so

 6     about what I had heard not about what I had seen.  As for the rest, it

 7     can stand as it is.

 8        Q.   And in your statement at the time you said you could hear all

 9     this from time to time, that the paramilitaries came until -- and that

10     people had been locked up and that people had been killed.  That's what

11     you heard; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  At page 42 --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Before we go on, if I may, there's an intervention

15     on the record.  I see at line 7, page 67, I am quoted as referring to

16     subtle procedure, whereas it should be well settled, s-e-t-t-l-e-d,

17     procedure.  Thank you.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

19        Q.   And at page 42, line 5, after asking you about what you reported

20     at the meeting, Mr. Cvijetic asked you:

21             "After that you noticed Mr. Zugic from MUP was there, although

22     you didn't know what capacity he was in and he was in the territory of

23     Zvornik municipality and he was actually compiling this type of

24     information."

25             Could you look at paragraph 131 in your statement and read what

Page 14994

 1     it says there and tell us if that refreshes your recollection about when

 2     you noticed Mr. Zugic in Zvornik for the first time.

 3        A.   In the statement I said that he arrived in late May 1992.

 4        Q.   Do you have any reason to disagree with that now?

 5        A.   How do you mean?  In what sense?  I didn't quite understand.

 6        Q.   Anything you've seen or read or heard since then that makes you

 7     think it's some different date other than late May?

 8        A.   Well, I said that I'm not sure absolutely about the dates.  I

 9     cannot be sure now that those are the dates, but I'm sure that he came

10     after that meeting.  I don't know what is important there, whether for me

11     to remember what day it was.  I cannot remember.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Mr. Witness, I have a couple of short

16     questions to you.  And one of the questions that I have relate to the

17     testimony that you gave us about the curfew in Zvornik at the time.  A

18     document was introduced to you by Mr. Cvijetic, and I think it was

19     assigned Exhibit 1D377, and I would ask the Registrar to bring it up on

20     the screen.  Thank you.

21             Do you recall the document, Mr. Witness?

22        A.   I don't recall the document, but I said that the decision

23     existed.  I don't remember this document in this form, but I do recall

24     that a decision was adopted.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  My question goes to the

Page 14995

 1     implementation of this decision, and I would like you to explain to us --

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the

 3     witness, he isn't able to see the decision that you're talking about on

 4     his monitor.  Perhaps it can be put up again on the screen so he can see.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I agree, Mr. Cvijetic, and thank you because also

 6     in the English version it's the wrong document that came up.  Yes, this

 7     is the right document dealing with the curfew.

 8             Mr. Witness, what I'm interested in is if you could tell us how

 9     this curfew was implemented in practice, can you recall?

10        A.   I was at the Crisis Staff until the 10th of April for two days

11     longer was I a member of the Crisis Staff.  So this wasn't even begun to

12     be implemented.  The implementation of the decision began only after the

13     Serbian forces entered Zvornik, and I think that it was implemented by

14     the mixed composition, meaning the Territorial Defence and policemen.  I

15     think there were also soldiers participating.  I think that's how it was.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you recall from your own experience at the

17     time how the curfew was implemented in practice?  I mean, were people

18     really prevented from getting out of their houses from 9.00 in the

19     evening until 5.00 the next morning?

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted).  But I have to say generally the people avoided going out at

23     night of their own accord, not that someone was preventing them from

24     doing so.  At any point during the day there were armed people in the

25     streets monitoring the citizens.  For example, at one time during the day

Page 14996

 1     two people in military uniforms came up to me and they asked to see my

 2     documents.  I remember that.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And for what purpose would they do that?

 4        A.   Just to check my identity.  At least that's how I understood it.

 5     Do you have ID?  Where do you live?  That kind of thing.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what were they looking for?  Who were they

 7     looking for in particular?  Why would they be interested in your

 8     identity?

 9        A.   Probably they were ordered to do that, to patrol the streets and

10     to check the IDs of people, to check who was out in the streets.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you know if any permissions to exit your house

12     after 9.00 and between 5.00 in the morning were issued to particular

13     groups of people?

14        A.   I cannot remember.  I'm not sure about that.  I couldn't confirm

15     that, no.  I'm not ruling out that this did happen.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And was the curfew to your knowledge applied

17     equally to Serbs as well as to non-Serbs in Zvornik?

18        A.   May I answer?

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, please.

20        A.   These things applied to everything, to everyone.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, that's what we can see on the screen, that

22     it applies without distinction to all citizens.  But my question to you

23     is rather if you know whether it was also applied in practice equally to

24     everyone.

25        A.   I think that it was very dangerous for people in that period,

Page 14997

 1     that April, for people who were recognised or identified as Muslims, they

 2     could have been checked in the sense of their IDs could have been checked

 3     or they could have been taken to some other place for a greater degree of

 4     control.  But there is another problem here, if I may be permitted to

 5     continue.  In that time the problem was that other than the organs which

 6     you could say had some degree of legal basis, the TO and similar, there

 7     were also persons from unknown units, from unknown forces who started

 8     setting up check-points, paramilitary check-points, who were doing checks

 9     of the population of their own accord.  That was the big problem.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now that you raise it, your testimony begs the

11     question of whether the paramilitary units that were manning these

12     check-points were also required to withdraw at 9.00 p.m. every day and

13     not show up until 5.00 the next morning.  Do you recall how that was?

14     Were the check-points empty and not manned during the night-times?

15        A.   In the beginning the check-points in town were functioning I

16     think.  I personally, for example, went out at night rarely, so I really

17     couldn't tell you where they were, how many.  But I think that there were

18     check-points in town.  I think that at the beginning of May all the

19     check-points were removed, the Territorial Defence dismantled them all

20     but couldn't dismantle the ones that were at exit points of the

21     municipality that were on the outer edges of the area.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see.  Could I just get back to your testimony

23     to me just a short while ago, where you said that people who had been

24     recognised or identified as Muslims could be taken to some other place

25     for a greater degree of control.  Did you mean to say that this was a

Page 14998

 1     practice that was applied only to non-Serbs?

 2        A.   Well, I heard of several cases where people were literally taken

 3     from the street, but this was never done by members of the police or the

 4     regular forces of the Territorial Defence; this was done by the

 5     paramilitaries.  For many people it was never known what their fate was.

 6     Some were picked up on the street, some at the check-points.  In the

 7     Zvornik municipality this was a period of considerable lawlessness and a

 8     period when the paramilitary forces were stronger than anyone else.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This brings me to the second question that I

10     wanted to put to you.  You testified earlier this afternoon that in

11     response to questions put to you by Counsel Cvijetic that Zvornik was, so

12     to say, had become a state in the state.  And I think this was indeed the

13     point that counsel wanted to establish.  And I would wish you to

14     elaborate a little more on this point because what I understood from your

15     testimony is that there was, as you have just said, a considerable degree

16     of lawlessness in the early days after the 8th of April, 1992, in Zvornik

17     and that the arrival of paramilitary units that acted more or less on

18     their own authority tended to create this situation of lawlessness.  So

19     it was very much a de facto situation in which it was difficult to keep

20     control of what was happening in Zvornik and surrounding areas.

21             But to say that there was lawlessness in the streets of Zvornik

22     and then from that fact to conclude that Zvornik had become a state in

23     the state seems to me to be two versions that are quite far apart,

24     because even if there were lawlessness in the streets there still might

25     have been a state and the Republika Srpska had already been established.

Page 14999

 1     And maybe it had difficulties in controlling the activities in all the

 2     areas within its territory, but it certainly hadn't disappeared.  And I

 3     guess that even though there was lawlessness in the streets of Zvornik,

 4     the authorities of Zvornik would still recognise the authority of the

 5     Republika Srpska, would they not?

 6             So my question to you is really:  Can you describe in some more

 7     detail exactly what you mean when you said that Zvornik had become a

 8     state in the state?  And what I'm particularly interested in is not only

 9     the factual situation but also the legal situation, if you can provide us

10     with an appreciation of this.

11        A.   The entire series of documents that we could see today and

12     yesterday indicate that the municipality was practically cut off from the

13     centre, that it didn't have communication with the centre, that it didn't

14     have anything to rely on in terms of internal organisation.  And that

15     practically there was a lot of chaos and lawlessness, there was war all

16     around, a lot of shooting, everyone was armed, the majority was armed,

17     and there were many groups acting on their own.  And it was very

18     difficult to control them.  The Crisis Staff which transformed into the

19     temporary government was attempting to strengthen the Territorial Defence

20     which the temporary government tried later by appointing a commander and

21     issuing other orders practically from the inside without contact with the

22     military or Republika Srpska.  Regulations were adopted ranging from how

23     to pay out retirement benefits, how to establish courts, how to finance

24     people who were in the Territorial Defence, and even under pressure the

25     paramilitaries were paid as well because the temporary government had to

Page 15000

 1     do that as well, care for the refugees.  So there was a vacuum, empty

 2     space where the state was unable to intervene.  Why?  Because the state

 3     itself was out there.  Republika Srpska didn't have a history of 20 or 30

 4     years back; it was created in three or four months.  It was all blank.

 5     This person from the Ministry of Internal Affairs wasn't able to send

 6     somebody to help or the one from the army because they didn't have those

 7     things.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted). So somebody would be working there incognito without

25     being appointed for that particular post.

Page 15001

 1             So I don't know if you understand me, if I'm being quite clear,

 2     and that is why I said this about Zvornik.  But it wasn't only Zvornik.

 3     There were many municipalities that were like a state within a state

 4     because the municipalities were left to themselves.  Up until the moment

 5     that the central government managed to organise itself, to organise the

 6     army, to set up the ministries, and then to embark on action; before

 7     that, this wasn't possible.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see and you have explained it very well.  I

 9     just wanted to ensure that when you said that Zvornik was a state within

10     the state, that this did not mean that there was any attempt from Zvornik

11     to denounce the authority of the Republika Srpska and to become

12     independent and not -- no longer wishing to obey the orders or the

13     instructions that came out of the Republika Srpska.  That was not the

14     case.  It was a practical deficiency, if I understand you correctly?

15        A.   Not only practical deficiency.  I've just explained to you that

16     the RS itself had been created only a few months earlier.  So there was

17     no continuity.  We're not talking about a state that had been there for a

18     while, that had laws, institutions, that were all functioning well, and

19     so on.  We were all in a vacuum and nobody knew what to do in practice.

20     April was a month of utter lawlessness and chaos.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And for approximately how long did this situation

22     last?  You mentioned several dates, end of May, July, August.  How -- I

23     know it's difficult because it was probably a phase in which the

24     lawlessness gradually was phased out, but can you clarify a bit if you

25     can.

Page 15002

 1        A.   I said here even today I think that from the moment of the

 2     arrival of the special unit and the rest of these people, the situation

 3     in Zvornik changed dramatically.  The situation was completely different

 4     from what it had been before until that time.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And the brigade arrived on 30th of May; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   According to the documents that we've seen, the brigade was

 8     supposed to be established on the 30th of May.  But the problem with its

 9     establishment and its manning were -- was around for quite a while.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.  I have no more questions.

11             MR. HANNIS:  I have one follow-up question based on Judge

12     Harhoff's questions, if I may.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

14                      Further Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

15             MR. HANNIS:

16        Q.   Witness, after the arrest of the Yellow Wasps and the other

17     paramilitaries in late July when you say things got better, the police

18     got organised, the military got organised, the governmental authorities

19     were able to be more organised, are you aware of any cases in Zvornik

20     where members of those units were prosecuted in Zvornik or the Republika

21     Srpska for crimes they committed against non-Serbs?  Any of Pivarski's

22     men, Zuco's men, Simo Chetnik's men, Crni's men, Captain Dragan's men,

23     any of those guys get prosecuted in the Republika Srpska for crimes

24     allegedly committed against non-Serbs that you know of?

25        A.   Let me tell you briefly.  They were investigated against on --

Page 15003

 1     the police went out to search for them after the arrival of the special

 2     unit, and I know that they were in prison in Bijeljina.  I know that they

 3     were interrogated by one of the judges, but they were released.  I'm not

 4     sure after how much time.  And the story was for a while that they were

 5     released because somebody from Yugoslavia had intervened.  When I spoke

 6     to the Defence counsel, he showed me some documents that convinced me

 7     that these people had been treated judicially.  Maybe not until the end

 8     as it should have been, but they were treated or processed judicially.

 9     And he had documents to prove that.

10        Q.   Which people and where?  Are you talking about Zuco and his

11     brother in Serbia?

12        A.   The Yellow Wasps, yes.

13        Q.   Anybody else and anybody in the Republika Srpska, prosecuted in

14     the Republika Srpska?

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't have any concrete information.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. HANNIS:  No further questions.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Witness, for your assistance to the

19     Tribunal.  You are now released and we wish you a safe journey back to

20     your home.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before we adjourn, the Chamber wishes to render

24     its oral decision on a couple of matters that have been brought before

25     us.

Page 15004

 1             The first issue is the confidential Prosecution motion which was

 2     filed on 11th of August, 2010, and the corrigendum filed on 20th of

 3     August, requesting to amend the Rule 92 ter package for Witness ST-004 by

 4     adding a one-page supplemental statement obtained from the witness on the

 5     23rd of June, 2010, and to have also added two associated documents,

 6     namely, Rule 65 ter number 2116, which is a list of reserve police

 7     officers for a specific police station, and 65 ter number 2117, which is

 8     a list of employees of the SJB for that area.

 9             And on the 24th of August, 2010, the Defence jointly responded

10     objecting to the Prosecution's motion.

11             The Trial Chamber is satisfied that the supplemental statement is

12     prima facie relevant and has probative value.  It was disclosed to the

13     Defence at the latest in early August.  And as ST-004 is not yet

14     scheduled to give testimony, the Trial Chamber considers that sufficient

15     notice has been given to the Defence.  Any prejudice to the Defence by

16     the admission of the one-page supplemental statement to this witness's

17     92 ter package is therefore negligible.

18             Furthermore, the Trial Chamber notes that the two associated

19     documents form an inseparable and indispensable part of the supplemental

20     statement which they accompany.

21             So for the foregoing reasons and in the interests of justice, the

22     Trial Chamber hereby allows the amendment of ST-004's Rule 92 ter package

23     as requested by the Prosecution and the adding of the supplemental

24     statement to the Prosecution's 65 ter list of exhibits.  The

25     Trial Chamber will consider admission into evidence of the entire package

Page 15005

 1     of Witness ST-004 under Rule 92 ter at the conclusion of his testimony.

 2             So that was one decision.  And the other decision which the

 3     Chamber wishes to render is in respect of the so-called law library, and

 4     the decision reads as follows.

 5             The Chamber is seized of the Defence and Prosecution joint motion

 6     for admission of agreed documents constituting what we would now wish to

 7     term as the reference library filed on 25th of August, 2010, in which the

 8     parties agreed on the admission into evidence of decisions, laws, and

 9     regulations of the SFRY and the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina, and the Republika Srpska.  Pursuant to Rule 89(C) and (D) of

11     the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the Trial Chamber is satisfied that

12     these documents which are listed in Annex A of the motion are relevant

13     and have probative value and hereby admits them into evidence.

14             However, the Chamber orders the Registrar to ensure that the

15     items in the reference library are properly registered and assigned

16     exhibit numbers as a separate category so as to ensure that they are kept

17     separate from Prosecution exhibits, Defence exhibits, and Chamber's

18     exhibits.  We propose that they be classified as exhibits under, for

19     instance, the letter R for reference library, but we leave that to the

20     Registrar.

21             Thank you very much.  That is all.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

23             And with -- sorry, Mr. Hannis, you were about to say something?

24             MR. HANNIS:  No, I was just rising in anticipation of your

25     rising.

Page 15006

 1             JUDGE HALL:  If memory serves, the last time I looked at the

 2     court schedule we are in this courtroom for the remainder of the week,

 3     alternating mornings to afternoons.  So we would reconvene at 9.00

 4     tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.46 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

 7                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.