Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15311

 1                           Tuesday, 5 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everybody in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances, please.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Good morning, Your Honours.

13             Tom Hannis, Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16             For the Stanisic Defence team, Slobodan Cvijetic,

17     Ms. Tatjana Savic, and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

19     Dragan Krgovic, Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for

20     Zupljanin Defence.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             We have been alerted that there are some preliminary matters

23     before the witness resumes his cross-examination.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Just one very short item, Your Honours.  We don't

25     have any cross-examination estimates for two of the witnesses that are

Page 15312

 1     scheduled to testify later this week, and I'm wondering if I could be

 2     provided with them during the course of the day.  They're the first two

 3     of the new witnesses which have been added as a result of the adjudicated

 4     facts decision, and we -- they're viva voce.  So it would be appreciated

 5     if we could have the estimates to know exactly what to say to the witness

 6     when they arrive and to liaise with VWS about their length of stay.

 7             And I'm also wondering, we have -- the next witness is ST-098,

 8     Ewa Tabeau.  The current estimate I have for her provided by the Defence

 9     quite a while ago was four hours each for cross-examination, and I'm just

10     wondering if that has been revised in any way during the course of the

11     preparation so we can schedule the balance of the witnesses accordingly.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             So -- yes, Mr. Krgovic, you're in a position to respond?

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as for these two

15     witnesses testifying about adjudicated facts, the Defence team has a

16     dilemma.  Specifically the witness scheduled to witness [as interpreted]

17     this week about an adjudicated fact which is very short, only two and a

18     half hours are scheduled.  If the OTP, in accordance with the Chamber's

19     ruling, wants only to show that adjudicated facts and establish the

20     circumstances for which the witness was called, we may not have more than

21     25 minutes of cross-examination.  But if the OTP use two and a half hours

22     and extend their examination-in-chief, we will apply for additional time

23     to cross-examine the witness.

24             That's why we think that the OTP should shorten the time allotted

25     to them for the examination-in-chief and focus only on the adjudicated

Page 15313

 1     facts, because that's how we understand the ruling of the Bench, namely,

 2     that both the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination will deal

 3     only with the adjudicated facts.  Given that, we don't expect to have

 4     many questions for the witnesses that will come to testify about that.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on behalf of the

 6     Stanisic Defence, I would like to say something about the witnesses

 7     called to testify about adjudicated facts.

 8             My estimate is one session for each of them, and that is a

 9     generous estimate.  We may actually need less.

10             As for the expert witness, we applied for four hours, as

11     Ms. Pidwell said, but that is also a very generous estimate.  We expect

12     to use much less, indeed.  But it certainly depends on what we are going

13     to hear in the courtroom.

14             But, anyway, we will certainly not exceed four hours.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

16             Ms. Pidwell, now you know, or don't know, where you stand.  We

17     will see.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  I guess that's the best -- that's as good as it's

19     going to get at this stage.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It would perhaps be useful if we can have

21     confirmation from Ms. Pidwell that the scope of the examination-in-chief

22     will only be the adjudicated fact.

23             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, Your Honours, we're very aware of the terms

24     of your ruling, and our interpretation is that it's the adjudicated fact

25     plus contextual evidence to provide the context of the -- of the fact.

Page 15314

 1     So we're aware of that, and that's the basis on which we're proceeding.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we should make

 4     good use of the time before the witness comes in.

 5             While examining one of the previous protected witnesses, and I'm

 6     referring to ST-215, the Trial Chamber admitted a document of the

 7     Defence.  The page reference is 14.962 of the transcript, and it was

 8     given the exhibit number 1D384, MFI.  This mark for identification was

 9     applied because on that day we couldn't provide an English translation.

10     In the meantime, however, I have been informed that the translation is

11     ready, so my motion would be to remove the MFI tag.

12             JUDGE HALL:  So ordered.  I'm trying to avoid the use of the term

13     de-MFI, which is the jargon of the Tribunal.  It seems to be such an ugly

14     concept, but we all know what we mean.

15             MS. PIDWELL:  While we're on this topic, perhaps I can clarify

16     one matter as well.

17             Your Honours will recall yesterday the issue of the -- exhibiting

18     the newspaper article of the 17th of July, and it was admitted on the

19     basis of the date only and not the contents.  As it turns out, that

20     article has previously been tendered through a previous witness who was

21     able to speak to the contents of the article.  It was -- it's actually

22     P1378.  And accordingly, in order to avoid any complications in the

23     future in regards to this article, I seek leave to withdraw the exhibit

24     that was tendered yesterday on that limited basis, because it's already

25     in evidence.

Page 15315

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So ordered.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can the Registrar indicate the number we had put

 3     yesterday?  Did you check ...

 4             MS. PIDWELL: [Microphone not activated]

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Miskovic, good morning to you, sir.  I trust

 8     that you are recovered from --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10             JUDGE HALL: -- from yesterday and that you are able to go on.  I

11     would remind you that you're still on your oath.

12             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

13                           WITNESS:  SIMO MISKOVIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Miskovic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, yesterday we broke off when we discussed the talks

19     with representatives of Kozarac.  I asked you about the level of these

20     talks and partly about the topics discussed and also about the

21     participants.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You said to me then that the talks were held at the local level.

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   And that nobody outside of Prijedor took part.

Page 15316

 1        A.   Nobody but us.  That was our organisation and it was our concept,

 2     so nobody had any influence on that, nor any suggestions.  Whether

 3     anybody subsequently applied the same rules, I don't know.  But it was

 4     our idea.  I apologise.

 5        Q.   Mr. Zupljanin did not take part in these talks about Kozarac?

 6        A.   No, he didn't.  As I said so.  Only on one occasion when we were

 7     in Omarska, and I tried to reach him once after talking to a

 8     Radovan Karadzic.  A man whom I knew from before the war as a colleague,

 9     I met him only once, but we had no connections whatsoever.

10        Q.   And you took a personal interest in resolving the issue of

11     Kozarac.  If -- you would know if Mr. Zupljanin had taken part?

12        A.   Yes, I certainly would have.  Not only about him but anybody else

13     too.  That's quite normal.

14        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to read Nusret Sivac's book:  "How

15     Large is the Carsija of Prijedor"?

16        A.   No, I haven't read it, but I've heard of it.  But I have no need

17     to read of these things because I was directly involved.

18             I heard that my name is mentioned there too, probably because I

19     was a protagonist of the events.  I hope I'm not being mentioned in a

20     negative context.

21        Q.   Well, you may want to read it after all.

22        A.   I don't think so.  If I do reading something, I'll read something

23     more serious.  I met Sivac later, two years ago, actually.  He was a

24     communications man with the police.  He worked with us, and he also was

25     a --

Page 15317

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Krgovic,

 2     just one moment, please.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think we should clarify the transcript where

 5     the witness gives evidence about the -- about Kozarac and the question

 6     whether Mr. Zupljanin knew about it.  And he said:

 7             "Nobody but us.  That was our organisation and it was our

 8     concept, so nobody had any influence on that, nor any suggestions."

 9             I skip one -- one line.

10             "... it was our idea.  I apologise."

11             And the "I apologise" could be misunderstood.  The witness just

12     coughed and said "I apologise" because he coughed, and nothing else.

13             Thank you.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, while we are on this particular

15     issue of whether or not Mr. Zupljanin was involved in the planning of the

16     events in Kozarac, could I ask the witness whether Mr. Zupljanin was

17     subsequently informed of these events?  Because I think you told us

18     yesterday that the local police was involved in that operation, so I

19     assume that at some point Mr. Zupljanin would have been informed.

20             Is that correct?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said it was our idea, and I

22     was saying so talking both to the Prosecution and to the Defence, it

23     means that we organised all activities independently with all structures

24     from the Prijedor municipality to prevent confrontation there.  And that

25     was the context of all the activities.

Page 15318

 1             As for the activities in Kozarac, talks were held, and I -- and

 2     the context of these talks was explained yesterday, about those insignia,

 3     et cetera, the functioning of the police, the police station in Ljubija

 4     and in Kozarac after the takeover of power and everything.

 5             As for the activities and the operation, the shelling of Kozarac,

 6     that is, the military operation, it was a military operation.  The

 7     military did it.  So that was along the military lines of command.

 8     Whether the police took part in it, and, if so, to what extent, I don't

 9     know, because it was a military operation.  The military had all the

10     equipment used there, and they commanded everything and all that.  And

11     that's how it was in other parts of Prijedor too.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I owe an explanation to

14     Judge Harhoff.

15             I asked this line of questions because this witness whose book I

16     mentioned writes that Mr. Zupljanin was involved in the talks in Kozarac,

17     and that is the reason why --

18             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honour, the witness has said he hasn't read

19     the book.  And I'm wondering if it's appropriate for him to be listening

20     to this line of explanation from my learned friend.

21             JUDGE HALL:  I hear your objection, Ms. Pidwell, but I'm not sure

22     that any harm is done inasmuch as when he said he hadn't read the book,

23     he said he was involved in the incident, so I don't see a problem.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just finished

25     with that line of questioning.  I just want to explain why I asked the

Page 15319

 1     witness about that event.

 2        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, speaking about these meetings and the appearance of

 3     certain people in Prijedor, let me ask you, you have certainly heard of

 4     General Subotic?

 5        A.   Yes, I have.  I knew Goran Subotic.  In Banja Luka, at meetings,

 6     he held some sort of position at the top.  I don't know which position.

 7     I know that later on he was in charge of pensions and medals and other

 8     things, but I wasn't with the party anymore.

 9        Q.   In August 1992, and in September, did you hear that Mr. Subotic

10     came to Prijedor, together with Mr. Zupljanin?

11        A.   No.  I only know that General Talic once came.  I remember that.

12     I was leaving the Municipal Assembly building and he was just parking his

13     vehicle and coming out of it, and he had brought military camouflage

14     uniforms, summer uniforms.  I remember that, and I got one.  And that's

15     why I can be seen in many pictures and on the radio in that period.  And

16     General Talic came once.  I don't know whether he ever came again though.

17             I was invited to come to the corps command because I often

18     reacted to the looting and other crimes such as smuggling and so on, so

19     people from the region would be summoned to come to the corps command to

20     find out what's going on.  And then the issue was raised how it's

21     possible that the trucks can go through all the 50 check-points from our

22     territory to Serbia, whereas I cannot even take a pin through those

23     check-points.

24        Q.   Yesterday the Prosecutor showed you a video.  That's not the

25     video showing the occasion when you visited, and you didn't see the

Page 15320

 1     people that were with you then?

 2        A.   I don't remember which video you're referring to.  But I was

 3     there only once, and we clarified that with the Prosecution and the

 4     Defence.  Just once.  At Trnopolje and Keraterm, those are places I never

 5     went to.

 6        Q.   When the delegation from Banja Luka arrived, the -- the visit of

 7     that delegation in -- to Omarska on the upper floor was all recorded.

 8     You saw it; right?

 9        A.   Yes, a camera recording was made.  And I wonder how come that

10     footage isn't there.

11        Q.   Part of my question is missing.

12             You saw it later on television of RS; right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  And it was in the local newspaper, the

14     "Kozarski Vjesnik."

15        Q.   When you were at that meeting on the upper floor in Omarska, as

16     far as I understood your testimony, two topics were discussed, to your

17     memory.  The functioning of the investigation centre and the examination

18     techniques; right?

19        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember all the details because it was a

20     long time ago.  But the briefing was mostly about the conditions in the

21     facility and the activities that had been taken.  And also ongoing

22     activities.

23        Q.   And when the situation in the facility was discussed, none of the

24     participants from the delegation or from there said that the conditions

25     were bad and nobody complained about anything.  Everybody said basically

Page 15321

 1     that it was consistent with the given circumstances and conditions?

 2        A.   Yes.  Those were the circumstances under which the facilities

 3     operated at the time.  And those who managed the facilities said all the

 4     best, that everything was working well, that everything necessary has

 5     been supplied, et cetera.

 6        Q.   And it was your understanding then, in Prijedor, was that all

 7     these investigation centres, as they were called, had been established so

 8     that people who were suspected of involvement in armed operations needed

 9     to be screened to find out who was responsible?

10        A.   That's what I understood, that the professional police was

11     inquiring into the involvement of every individual so that charges be

12     brought against those who are found to be responsible and the others

13     released.  That's how -- how the normal police procedure would run.  Now,

14     if that procedure was really observed, I don't know.  I didn't know many

15     things.  You -- you told me that there were no criminal complaints filed,

16     and that surprises me.  I didn't know at the time that not a single

17     criminal complaint has been filed.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one correction to the

19     transcript.  The witness said:  You told me that there were criminal

20     complaints filed, and I didn't know at the time that criminal complaints

21     were there.

22        Q.   Is that what you said?

23        A.   Yes.  You said a few days ago that criminal complaints were filed

24     against individuals with the District Prosecutor's Office, and I was not

25     aware of that.

Page 15322

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, I'm not exactly clear about what we

 2     are talking about here.  I don't know if Mr. Krgovic can clarify.

 3     Criminal complaints filed by whom against whom?  That seems to be an open

 4     question.

 5             But, Mr. Miskovic, are you able to give an estimation as to the

 6     number of persons detained at Omarska when you went to visit the place?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the criminal complaints,

 8     that relates to criminal complaints against persons who had been brought

 9     to the investigation centre in Omarska, and the criminal complaints are

10     normally filed by the police officers who interrogated these people,

11     active-duty and reserve policemen.

12             Now, as for the estimate, it is very difficult for me to

13     estimate - I'm not good at that - but let's say, roughly, from what I've

14     seen, there could have been 150 to 200 people.  I don't know.  It would

15     be really silly of me to give any definite number, but that would be a

16     rough figure.

17             There was a fence between us and there was a line of people on

18     the other side of the fence.  They were lined up.  But I'm really

19     surprised that there is no video footage.  Everything was recorded,

20     including the meeting in the conference hall, and I thought you had that

21     material.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  To your recollection, did the staff at the

23     Omarska camp provide you with any information about how many people were

24     detained there at the moment?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean at the meeting?

Page 15323

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  You told us yesterday that you were given

 2     an introductory speech by the camp command.  And so I wonder if, during

 3     that speech, information was provided to you as to the number of persons

 4     detained at the time.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now in hindsight, 20 years later, I

 6     cannot remember that discussion.  But as soon as the delegation arrived,

 7     the host - in this case, the warden of the investigation centre - gave a

 8     briefing about the centre, the number of people, the activities

 9     undertaken, and the measures taken against individuals.  I can only

10     suppose that that's what we had come for.  It was not to take pictures.

11     It was an official delegation visiting the centre.  And on behalf of the

12     centre, their manager made a report, and that's what he should have

13     covered.  He could not have talked about anything else.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one follow-up question, Mr. Miskovic.

15             Did the delegation tour the facility, the camp?  Did they go

16     around, see what happened?  Or did they only go upstairs to the meeting

17     room and -- and then left?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was literally the way you put it

19     at the end.  We got out of the car, we climbed the stairs, got into the

20     conference room, received the information that I just mentioned.  After

21     that, we got back into the car and left.

22             I don't know where the others went, but I went to Prijedor.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And -- and you -- when you say you left, that

24     applies for you as well as for the Banja Luka delegation?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, certainly.

Page 15324

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody -- nobody toured any other

 3     buildings.  We only got upstairs, went into that room, went down the same

 4     stairs, and left.  I don't know if anyone came to visit later, but that

 5     visit passed exactly as I said.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, just one more thing regarding this visit.

10             You told us about your knowledge at the time, that it was an

11     investigation centre, that people suspected of involvement --

12        A.   People assumed to have been involved.

13        Q.   Yes, people thought to have been involved in the armed insurgency

14     were being screened, interrogated, to see whether evidence existed and in

15     relation to whom?

16        A.   Yes, that's what I understood, and that's why in all my evidence

17     I said that in my eyes it was an investigation centre because these

18     people were interrogated by professionals who were trained.  Now to what

19     extent triage was made, whether it was made, I don't know.  But

20     professionally speaking, that's the way it is.

21        Q.   And that's what the delegation from -- from Prijedor was told,

22     wasn't it?

23        A.   I'm telling you I can't remember after 20 years.  But I suppose,

24     judging from the context, that it was the only thing that could have been

25     talked about, because the director of the centre could have only made a

Page 15325

 1     briefing about that; the situation in Omarska and the problems.  Now,

 2     what details he covered, I don't remember anymore.  If you had asked me

 3     earlier, I would have recalled it better.

 4        Q.   Regarding the condition of the buildings in Omarska that you

 5     toured, those were newly built facilities; they were in good condition at

 6     the time?

 7        A.   I was commander of the section in Omarska when preparations were

 8     made for extraction of the ore.  I worked on the expropriation of land

 9     and similar matters, so I know exactly who the contractor was.  It was

10     Hidrogradnja company from Sarajevo.  I was on good terms with that

11     business because of my role.  And those buildings were built at that

12     time.  They were fresh, newly built, including all the appointment and

13     equipment for that sort of facility.  At the time, it was a modern

14     building.

15        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I will show you now a document --

16        A.   And you can see that on the footage, that those were solid, good

17     buildings.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] P602 is the document we need

19     displayed to the witness.

20        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, this is a report of the commission that was set up

21     in August 1998.

22        A.   What do you mean 1998?

23        Q.   I meant -- sorry, I meant 1992.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the last

25     page.  In Serbian, it's page 16.

Page 15326

 1        Q.   This is a report made by a commission.  Do you know any of the

 2     people named here?

 3        A.   I know Vaso Skondric.  We studied together.  Vojin Bera, I know

 4     him.  Ranko Mijic, I know him.  And Jugoslav Rodic I also know; he worked

 5     in the security service.  I know all of them.  They are all from the

 6     police.

 7        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Miskovic, that these people came to Prijedor

 8     more than once and that they toured the investigation centre?

 9        A.   I don't know.  They did not approach me.  They did not contact

10     me.  I'm seeing this document for the first time.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the fourth

12     page of this document in Serbian.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it be enlarged a bit?

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   On page 4 the condition of the facility in Omarska is described.

16     I'll read out to you just one passage that begins with the words:

17             "Since this was a relatively new facility which had all the

18     necessary living and residential conditions for a larger number of

19     persons (offices, halls, toilets and washrooms, kitchen and dining-room,

20     constant supply of drinking water, a large number of showers, constant

21     supply of electricity, a generator, and so on), no alterations were made

22     to the building, but the existing premises were used instead for the

23     accommodation of and work with the prisoners."

24             Is this a correct description of that facility, to the best of

25     your knowledge?  Did you really see that?  Does that hall exist?  And all

Page 15327

 1     the other conditions stated here?

 2        A.   You know, I just said a moment ago I was a section commander in

 3     Omarska when this was built, and preparations were made for the

 4     extraction of the ore.  But I never went inside the building, and I don't

 5     know the layout inside, what the conditions were.  But I suppose that

 6     these buildings were later adapted for the accommodation of workers who

 7     were probably using washrooms and bathrooms, et cetera.  That probably

 8     existed, although I didn't see it.  All I saw during the visit was the

 9     conference hall where I went with the delegation.  That's all I saw of

10     the inside.  And that building was made for that purpose, so it probably

11     had all this.  I just didn't go in.

12        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, while we're talking about the conditions, in the

13     summer before the corridor was opened, in the summer of 1992, what was

14     the situation inside the city of Prijedor itself, regarding electricity,

15     water supply?  What were the prevailing conditions for the other

16     citizens?

17        A.   Well, electricity and water supply were a problem.  We had

18     occasional supply and occasional blackouts.  And I tried, in Celpak at

19     the time, to reactivate a power plant that was not in use at the time.

20     And I remembered one man who had been abroad and then came back to

21     Prijedor, and I asked him if there was any way of reactivating that power

22     plant, and he said he to go and see for himself.  He went to see the

23     manager.  He said it was impossible to reactivate it.

24             And my next idea was to try mini power plants on the Sana River,

25     that he should analyse that possibility as an expert.  So we were looking

Page 15328

 1     for alternative sources of energy in the territory.  But nothing came out

 2     of that, and the situation was with -- was characterised by shortages.

 3        Q.   And the water supply depended on a pump so that when the pump was

 4     not working, due to lack of electricity, there was no water either.

 5        A.   It's the same today.  There are large wells near the River Sana,

 6     water is pumped out of the river, and currently we got a grant from the

 7     Swiss government to finance a project of providing potable water to the

 8     city of Prijedor in a different way.  Omarska, for instance, always had

 9     problems with water.  And after all the visits and talks where I

10     participated, we tried to improve the water supply, but it never

11     happened.  And now, finally, thanks to this Swiss project, it will have a

12     reliable water supply, finally.

13        Q.   And the situation for the citizens of Prijedor was not really

14     good until the corridor was broken.  There was no or very little food and

15     other needs?

16        A.   Well, with the food, yes, at first we had enough supplies.  But

17     once they were exhausted, then it was a problem.  The water-related

18     problems were -- I felt them myself.  My family had to go get water in

19     buckets and then fill the washing machine.  I made a well, which is

20     something we're still using, but that's not drinking water, of course.

21     And from the waterworks system, we used that water for drinking.

22        Q.   Let me ask you something in relation to the question put by

23     Judge Harhoff.

24             You said that at the time you didn't know about criminal

25     complaints or reports being submitted.  Now I will show you a document

Page 15329

 1     and then ask you whether you know about the incident that's described in

 2     this complaint or report.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2D03-1189.

 4             Can we please enlarge it?  It's a rather poor copy.

 5        A.   I see the report.

 6        Q.   Are you familiar with the incidents?

 7        A.   Asim Mujic; Alagic; Devljak; Mithad Kadiric; Murir Kadiric;

 8     Samir Cehic; Edin Celic; Bahrija Mulalic; Bajro Borovac;

 9     Ferid Crljenkovic; Latif Karagic; Besim Memic; Ermin Dedic; Suad Mrkalj;

10     Mirsad Kadiric, Kina; Sakib Ejupovic; Jasmin Alisic, aka Jama;

11     Hajrudin Ganic, aka Gane; Ibro Grozdanic, aka Geolog; and Sakib Ejupovic,

12     all from Prijedor, are on the run because of a suspicion that all the

13     persons listed under item 3 committed a criminal act of armed rebellion

14     under article 80; yes, I can see that.

15        Q.   Yesterday you mentioned that you negotiated with one of the

16     Kadirics in Kozarac.  Is any of them here listed?

17        A.   No.  That was Fikret Kadiric who was a police station commander,

18     and he's not here on the list.  He was not accused of this.

19        Q.   Would you please take a look at the last page of the document and

20     tell me whether you can recognise the signature block.

21        A.   It's Radmilo Zeljaja.  That's his signature.  So this was

22     submitted by the military police.  I don't know about this incident.

23        Q.   Did you know that the army also carried out some investigations

24     and proceedings?

25        A.   Well, I did say that we had civilian and military police and each

Page 15330

 1     of the institutions carried out their part of the work.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 2 of this

 3     document on the screen.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  While that page is loading, Mr. Krgovic, I alert you

 5     that you have nine minutes left.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm completing my

 7     cross-examination.  This is the last topic.  I'll finish within my time

 8     allotted to me.

 9        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, do you see this segment where it is mentioned --

10     and start reading from the second paragraph.

11        A.   "Before the attack on Prijedor..."

12             Is that the part?

13        Q.   That this involves a criminal report against people who attacked

14     Prijedor, which then caused the avalanche of incidents and consequences.

15        A.   I can see from the report that it's from that time-period, that

16     the persons mentioned there are the persons who were involved.  I knew

17     only one name.  I didn't know who was else with him.  I knew about all

18     that even before there were attempts through Mr. Sadikovic to get in

19     touch with him and because we knew each other from before the war and

20     tried to sort things out.  And I did mention that I went to the barracks

21     and -- to talk to him after the attack, but I don't know whether he felt

22     ashamed; did he feel bad that he didn't take my advice that I sent

23     through him through Dr. Sadikovic.  He just left.  And so this is about

24     the relevant period.

25        Q.   And then further in the text, we see that groups that took part

Page 15331

 1     in the attack, they are described.  Do you know that they came from

 2     across -- from the other side of the Sana River?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.  A colleague of mine, she lives in one of

 4     the flats, in one of the three buildings where you had people from

 5     different ethnic groups, and she told me that she had recognised a

 6     colleague of hers who was limping, and she saw him crawling next to the

 7     building.  I only heard it from her.  I didn't see it myself.  She also

 8     told me his name, but that I forgot.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know whether

10     I have provided you with sufficient grounds for this, but I would like to

11     tender this document.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Objection, Your Honours.  This witness said that he

13     didn't -- wasn't aware of any criminal reports that had been filed in

14     Prijedor, whether civilian or military, and even though he can talk a

15     little bit, very generally, about the -- the contents of the -- purported

16     contents of this document, he can't speak to the truth of it, and he

17     can't speak to the authenticity of it.  And it's -- I'm anticipating it's

18     being tendered to prove that criminal reports were, in fact, filed.  And

19     he can't give any evidence on that issue.

20             JUDGE HALL:  My question to Mr. Krgovic is -- on his application

21     to tender the document, is to what end?

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely because

23     during my examination of the witness, and also during the

24     examination-in-chief, he said that he didn't know about any criminal

25     reports but that he found it strange.  And I wanted to illustrate that

Page 15332

 1     there were such complaints and that for the purpose were the

 2     investigations carried out in investigation centres and so on.  But if

 3     the Trial Chamber is of the opinion that it is sufficient -- that there

 4     isn't a sufficient nexus established, then we can maybe MFI the document

 5     and then introduce it through another witness.  But I do believe that

 6     document is relevant because it demonstrates the cause of all the later

 7     incidents, what the witness talked about, the attack, and then

 8     disarmament of the military -- of -- of the Muslim paramilitary

 9     formations.

10             So this is the purpose of this document.  There are two reasons,

11     rather.  The first one that I mentioned is that I tried to establish a

12     link with statement by this witness that there were criminal reports;

13     and, secondly, all the facts, attack on Prijedor, the reasons for the

14     later conflict.  All that can be seen from this document.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, the Chamber is wondering if this

17     criminal report is made against anyone who was detained at Omarska, and,

18     indeed, whether the criminal report comes out of the interrogations that

19     were carried out at Omarska.

20             Is there any evidence of this?

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm afraid we will

22     have to then wait for a witness who will come who will talk about this

23     very topic.  It is a man who was a member of this mixed team consisting

24     of public and military security services, and he will be able to speak

25     about that.

Page 15333

 1             I tried to avoid putting this question to this witness and keep

 2     only discussing the adjudicated facts, but I thought maybe because the

 3     witness is familiar with the events and because he could recognise the

 4     signature of Mr. Zeljaja, that it would be better to use him to introduce

 5     this document, but ...

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So we will -- thank you.  So we will

 8     wait.  Thank you.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Just one more question, Mr. Miskovic, for the end.

11             You told us about your - how shall I put it? - disagreements with

12     the leadership in Prijedor and with your disapproval of what was going on

13     in Prijedor.  You told us that you had problems in your attempts to

14     replace the top echelons of Prijedor authorities.

15        A.   Yes.  We even had Municipal Assembly sessions in order to achieve

16     this.  I told you, or I told the Prosecutor, that even the military would

17     come to the assemblies carrying rifles headed by their commander, and

18     that was, in a way, pressure exerted against us.  Their intention was to

19     make sure that these people would not replaced, but in the end we

20     succeeded.  I think I described this to you during my testimony.  I think

21     it was while I was answering to the Prosecutor's Office.

22        Q.   And then you said that the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor managed

23     to replace Simo Drljaca through assistance of Krajisnik?

24        A.   Yes.  We initiated that, and he did arrive.  He used his

25     authority and assisted us to have Simo Drljaca replaced.

Page 15334

 1        Q.   Because he had support both by the local military, the political

 2     structures such as Stakic and the others, and it was very difficult to

 3     have him replaced.

 4        A.   Well, not the politics.  The political structures were for his

 5     replacement.  But he did have the government structures and the military

 6     behind him.  I'm talking only about the leadership segment.  There was

 7     coordination and cooperation between them.  And that's why things went

 8     the way they went.

 9        Q.   And the official position of the party of the SDS, of the

10     Executive Board, yourself, was that you did not stand behind Simo Drljaca

11     or the municipal authorities; am I right?

12        A.   Well, we wanted to replace the leadership.  I explained why.  It

13     took us a while achieve it.  The president of the Executive Board, we

14     managed to replace him without too many problems.  However, the last one

15     that we had replaced was Mr. Drljaca, who was the chief of MUP.  And as I

16     explained, it was only through the assistance of Mr. Krajisnik that we

17     succeeded.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Miskovic.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

20     questions for this witness.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Miskovic.

25        A.   Good day.

Page 15335

 1        Q.   My name is Slobodan Cvijetic, and I represent Mr. Stanisic.

 2             Mr. Krgovic exhausted most of the questions relevant for you.  We

 3     have an agreement whereby we try and focus our questions in this way, so

 4     my cross-examination will consist of only making a few clarifications in

 5     relation to your testimony so far.

 6             Yesterday you were asked by Madam Pidwell -- or, rather, after

 7     she put a question to you, you asked whether you would be allowed to

 8     portray the genesis of the events which was something that reflected your

 9     fears of something like that happening again --

10        A.   And fears of the people.

11        Q.   -- and the steps you took to achieve that.  And then in answering

12     to my colleague Mr. Krgovic, you provided a further explanation of all

13     that.

14             However -- we've been monitoring the transcript.  And I know

15     you're aware of the way you speak, and because of that, two crucial

16     things failed to make the transcript.  We'll deal with those, and then

17     we'll drop that subject.

18             You will agree with me that the area of the municipality of

19     Prijedor and Kozara was an area where, in the course of the

20     Second World War, the largest genocide against Serbian People was

21     committed anywhere in former Yugoslavia.

22        A.   I cannot define it precisely like that.  First of all, I don't

23     hail from Prijedor; I hail from Kljuc.  But, yes, I went to school there

24     since 1959.  We have a house there, and we've been living there ever

25     since.  However, the historical facts that we studied about in school and

Page 15336

 1     the documents that were being shown then, various visits to Jasenovac's

 2     memorial area, then stories by people from Kozara region about their

 3     memories.  All that comprises my knowledge of the so-called Kozara epos.

 4     We also had to study Stojanka Majka Knezopoljka's poem by

 5     Skender Kulenovic, and then --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

 7     sentence in his answer.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 18 years only -- only after

 9     18 years the first soldier from Knezopolje could join the army, because

10     there were no one of the right age.  But there were two modes of

11     suffering of people from Kozara:  One was in the -- one of the groups

12     were those who were part of the 1st Partisan Brigade who were fighting

13     elsewhere; and then also there was another group who remained in the

14     Kozara region and who were taken by Ustashas to Jasenovac camp, whereas

15     children were taken to camp for children in Jastrebarsko.

16             At that time, in Yugoslavia, all the citizens of Yugoslavia had

17     an opportunity to learn about one such story.  It was an actress,

18     Frajt - I forget her first name - but after 25 years only she learned of

19     her identity.  It was a family from Bosanska Gradiska.  She went there to

20     meet the survivors, I think it was an uncle of hers, but she was very

21     grateful to the Frajt family that gave everything necessary to have a

22     normal life.  But she is an illustration of how the children had

23     suffered, children who had ended up in the Jastrebarsko camp.  Some of

24     them were killed and some were given to families that couldn't have

25     children.  So that's the tragedy that remained in the memories of the

Page 15337

 1     people from the Kozara region.

 2             With new generations, this seemed to have been forgotten.  There

 3     were new generations there that forgot about all that, but then they

 4     found themselves again in a situation, a similar situation, in 1991.

 5             Just a moment.  For these reasons, I pointed this out to

 6     Mirza Mujavic [phoen].  I warned him:  Let's not do that.  You know what

 7     happened in the area.  Let us not stir up old fires.  He went to

 8     secondary school with me and by chance his father and my father did their

 9     military service in Varazdin.  Life is funny.  So it was my moral

10     obligation to warn him about that.

11             It was the same with Fikret Kadiric.  I also tried with him.  If

12     you read the documents, will you see that I contacted everybody and

13     warned them of this, not to take these things lightly and think that some

14     things can be done without consequences.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that we have now established the historical

16     link with the events that ensued.  We don't have to repeat that anymore.

17     I believe it's sufficiently clear now.

18             Let me ask you something else now.  The way I understood

19     Variant B, or the way you explained it to us, in essence, it was the

20     establishment of Serb authorities and Serb municipalities in area where

21     the Serbs were the majority population.  Or, in other words, the

22     establishment of Serb municipalities by peaceful, political means, which

23     means by establishing a municipality, or Municipal Assembly, and all

24     other bodies that would function in that part of a particular

25     municipality where the Serbs were the majority population.

Page 15338

 1             Have I correctly understood the essence of the implementation of

 2     that variant in the Prijedor municipality?

 3        A.   Well, that's partly correct.  It's a fact that Variant B, in

 4     Prijedor municipality, envisaged the establishment of authorities and a

 5     Serb municipality.  I said as much answering the Prosecutor's question.

 6             However, the Serb municipality was never established in Prijedor

 7     because of subsequent events.  However, representatives of the

 8     authorities were appointed, and there are documents from the meetings

 9     that were mentioned.  Kuruzovic was at the head of the TO; Simo was at

10     the head of the police; Stakic was supposed to take the position of

11     Assembly president, because in the existing authorities he was deputy;

12     and Simo Kovacevic was supposed to become president of the Executive

13     Committee.  But all that was only on paper.

14             The document reads:  In case of danger for the Serbian People,

15     take action to prevent that from happening.  And that was the purpose of

16     all our activities.  So only if the Serb people should be in danger.

17     Only in that case, these structures would be activated.

18        Q.   Now I must be clear.  When -- when I said "where the Serbs are

19     the majority population," I meant the local communes and that part of the

20     municipality where the Serbs were the majority population; right?

21        A.   It was supposed to be like that, but it was never implemented.

22     And I explained as much.  It wasn't done so as not to irritate the other

23     side.  And then check-points were set up; I explained all that in detail.

24     And all that was successful.  There were no incidents.  I explained that

25     as well.

Page 15339

 1        Q.   That's why I asked you to explain the genesis of the attempt to

 2     divide the area.  So it was done pursuant to an agreement with the Muslim

 3     side, and you went about it until that telefax arrived.  So the talks

 4     were successful until that moment, and then things were -- started going

 5     wrong.

 6        A.   The talks were not about the division but about preventing

 7     confrontation, that all of us, in our structure, should keep a lid on

 8     those who were more extreme in their views.  On the Serb side is -- some

 9     White Eagles appeared, but we immediately locked them up.  Everybody who

10     tried to stick out and do anything out of the ordinary was immediately

11     neutralized.

12        Q.   Now, if you take into consideration the information received from

13     the -- from military security about the preparations of the Muslims for

14     armed conflict and if you consider the undisputed fact that the

15     municipality of Prijedor was attacked - and it was a well-organised

16     military attack by the Muslim forces - you will agree with me when I

17     conclude that taking over power in Prijedor municipality would

18     have some -- been something the Muslims had done, unless the Serbs had

19     been faster.

20             Do you agree with me that there was a real jeopardy of that

21     happening?

22        A.   The events there, such as shirking some solutions, avoiding them,

23     could give rise to suspicion that they had afterthoughts, a hidden

24     agenda.  But I was in no position to know about that.

25             The first information I received about the organisation of armed

Page 15340

 1     units was received from Slavko Ecimovic.  And through Dr. Esad Sadikovic,

 2     I tried to find out whether he knew what that was leading to.  And I was

 3     surprised that such a person was at the head of all that and that he's

 4     willing to engage in such activities.  I've already explained what --

 5     what I mean.  I have no need to repeat.

 6             However, the attack on Prijedor one month after the takeover of

 7     power, in that attack they came up to 50 or 70 metres from the MUP or the

 8     Municipal Assembly of Prijedor.  That alone speaks for itself.  This was

 9     a well-organised and well-targeted military operation.  But their

10     unrefutable -- there is unrefutable evidence that they launched this

11     massive attack.  I don't know, however, how many people they have, but

12     the military structures certainly do.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'm done dealing with this topic.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, I believe it's

15     time for the break anyway, so I will move on to another topic after the

16     break.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We would resume in 20 minutes.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let us continue.  I noticed that you stated to Ms. Pidwell that

22     the JNA played a role in all the events in Prijedor.  I understood you to

23     say that you said that, at that time, you involved the JNA in the talks

24     as the only legal and official armed force on which you could rely as a

25     guarantor of an agreement.

Page 15341

 1        A.   Since all units were subordinate to the command of the JNA, and

 2     that's been shown in the evidence led by the Prosecution, Commander Arsic

 3     and his deputy were involved in the talks, and they were the only armed

 4     force.

 5             You may remember a document showing that the JNA was unwilling to

 6     protect -- in case the JNA was unwilling to protect the Serb people in

 7     the area, then we would call upon all Serbs who were in the ranks of the

 8     JNA and the police to leave their units, to establish an army and a

 9     police to protect the people in the area.  But that has already been

10     elaborated during the direct examination.

11             The subsequent events show that they, indeed, became active, and

12     all units were under their command and control.  There was a unified

13     command.  And there were no -- no others out there who acted on their

14     own.  All units were under the command of the army, the JNA.

15        Q.   In accordance with the principle of unified command in combat

16     activities, that is, indeed, so.  There is only one command at the top of

17     the pyramid; right?

18        A.   Yes.  All units were subordinate to the JNA command in Prijedor,

19     and the commander was Colonel Arsic.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let us clarify the wartime police stations which you

21     spoke about.

22             The information about the wartime police stations and their

23     establishment is something I found in military rules and regulations.

24     Please explain to me this process of establishing such wartime police

25     stations and the drafting of men to serve there.  Is that done by the

Page 15342

 1     military body in charge?

 2        A.   In Yugoslavia, until the war broke out in 1991, the organisation

 3     was such that there was the military department, as we called it, which

 4     assigned a wartime assignment to everybody so that everybody knew where

 5     they belonged, what their position was, where they should report in case

 6     of war or imminent threat of war.  And the same applied to the police.

 7             According to my wartime assignment, I was commander of the

 8     reserve police station, Prijedor 2; I explained that already.  And that

 9     was in force since the early 1970s.  There was also training done,

10     because people were assigned to those positions who, in peacetime, did

11     other jobs.  But when there was imminent threat of war, they were

12     reassigned to carry out other jobs and take other positions and be ready

13     to do that at any given moment.  That is the concept of reserve forces of

14     both the military and the police.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Line 13 should read "other jobs,"

17     rather than "over jobs."  That's what the witness said.

18        Q.   When I asked you this question, I had in mind the answers you

19     provided to the Prosecutor but also what your statement given to the

20     Tribunal reads.

21             Your position of command of a wartime police station and the

22     personnel other -- personnel assigned to you was actually your wartime

23     assignment?

24        A.   Yes.  Our wartime assignment, that was given to us by the

25     military department.  That's what we called the body that took care of

Page 15343

 1     the wartime assignments of able-bodied men, of the able-bodied

 2     population.

 3        Q.   So let us be precise.  That is your wartime assignment, your

 4     military assignments, that you get from the military body in charge?

 5        A.   It was called the Department of All People's Defence.  That was

 6     its name.  And there was a hierarchical structure in place from the

 7     Federation, through the republics, down to the municipality.

 8        Q.   I will finish with this topic.  I was mistaken in believing that

 9     it can be found in the evidence of the Prosecution, but now I see that

10     you applied for some sort of certificate.  And it says that at the time

11     when you were commander of the wartime police station --

12        A.   For three months.

13        Q.   -- it is entered into your military ID as participation in a war;

14     am I right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I will not search for this document because I have a

17     hard time finding it.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let us show the witness another

19     document, Your Honours, 1D00-0924.

20        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I hope you can read it.  Or do you want us to

21     enlarge it?

22        A.   I can read it.

23        Q.   Read it to yourself and then I'll ask you about it.

24        A.   I've read it.

25        Q.   As you can see, this is a conclusion of the Crisis Staff dated

Page 15344

 1     6 June 1992.  The blockade remains in force.  Obviously it was imposed

 2     earlier.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And the procedure is outlined for leaving Prijedor municipality.

 5     Do you remember the conclusion?

 6        A.   No, I don't.  I didn't know about it earlier.  Now, having read

 7     the conclusion, I can see that it existed.

 8        Q.   All right.  You don't know the document.  But do you know about

 9     the blockade and the limitation of movement?

10        A.   Yes, of course.  I explained the circumstances.  There was also a

11     curfew.

12        Q.   So my question is, so this blockade and the limitation of

13     movement and the curfew applied to all citizens, irrespective of their

14     ethnicity; right?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  Even to me.

16        Q.   Even leaving the Prijedor municipality without a permit wasn't

17     possible, even for you.  So if you wanted to go to Banja Luka, you had to

18     apply for a permit; right?

19        A.   Yes.  I needed a permit to leave Prijedor.  Or if I wanted to go

20     to Serbia, also I needed a special permit.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, it's not entirely clear to me why

22     this blockade was upheld.  Judging from the dates of the Crisis Staff's

23     conclusion, this happened just shortly after the attack on Prijedor by

24     the BiH army.  So what would the purpose be of preventing people from

25     leaving the town?

Page 15345

 1             Mr. Miskovic, can you help us out here?

 2        A.   The way I see it is that control was imposed over movements of

 3     citizens in order to know who was leaving the town and who was coming in.

 4     That's my assumption.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Indeed, that is what we can read from the

 6     Crisis Staff's conclusion.

 7             But my question is:  Immediately after the town had been subject

 8     of an attack, presumably in the attempt to take over the control of

 9     Prijedor, why would you prevent people from leaving -- I mean, if I, as a

10     normal citizen, had been living in Prijedor at the time, the only thing I

11     would have had in mind would be to -- to get out of there as soon as

12     possible before the next attack would come.

13        A.   What you say is absolutely correct.  But there was a blockade in

14     all areas.  Just on the way to Serbia, there were 50 check-points you had

15     to pass through.  Everyone had to be physically checked and his papers

16     had to be inspected.  Some Muslims took other people's documents and

17     travelled to Serbia that way, if they had errands or business there, and

18     then they would return in the same way.  Many went to Belgrade, and I

19     would run into them in Belgrade.  They were waiting for all this to blow

20     over, in order to return, again, with other people's identity papers.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   The last thing I want to show you -- in fact, a video was shown

25     to you, and I think it was stopped showing a picture of Omarska camp, and

Page 15346

 1     I think you recognised it.  I have a much better quality photograph.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I hope the Trial Chamber and the

 3     Prosecution won't mind that I didn't announce it because it's just a

 4     photograph.

 5        Q.   But it would be a good thing for you to look at it and to tell

 6     us, on your visit to Omarska, where you went.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll give you the number:

 8     ERN R093-1252.

 9        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I think this is a very good image, a very good

10     quality photograph.

11        A.   From the air.

12        Q.   Yes, from the air.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if we could give this

14     electronic pen to Mr. Miskovic for him to show us where he entered and

15     which part of the camp the delegation actually visited.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see where the stairs are,

17     on which building.  I suppose it's this one here, judging by the position

18     of the people who were there.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Put a circle around the building where you actually went inside.

21        A.   I suppose it's this one.

22        Q.   And put number 1.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Very well.  That is, then, the building into which you had gone.

25        A.   I suppose so.  But there were stairs on the side.

Page 15347

 1        Q.   Can you draw from which direction you came?

 2        A.   I don't know how the car drove in.  But the car stopped just

 3     outside the building, we went straight inside, up the stairs ...

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know that I did

 5     not announce this document, but it's a photograph that would complement

 6     the testimony of this witness.  He had told us a lot about this visit,

 7     and he has just explained about where exactly he went.  And I would like

 8     to tender it.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, I wonder if we could have the

10     witness also indicate just where he was able to observe the line of the

11     prisoners.  I think the prisoner -- the witness said that he saw a line

12     of some 150 to 180 prisoners lined up somewhere.

13             Mr. Miskovic, could you indicate on the photo where that was?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is the photograph of the

15     facility which we visited - but I'm not sure it is - then the citizens

16     were standing here, in this area, outside.  And as we were climbing up

17     the stairs, we saw them.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could you put number 2 there.

20        A.   And if this was this building here, then they would have been

21     lined up here.  3 and 4.

22             I can't see, because this is an aerial photograph.  It looks like

23     a map on this image.  I don't see any elements that I could use to

24     determine in which part we went in.  I don't see even the gate.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if the Trial Chamber

Page 15348

 1     is satisfied with your answer and if this clarifies the position enough.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             There's something I'm not clear about.  Did -- Mr. Miskovic, did

 5     I understand your answer to Judge Harhoff's question to be, in effect,

 6     that the building that you had originally marked as 1, that it is either

 7     that or the building that you marked as 3?  Is that the effect of your

 8     answer?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just said it.  I'm not sure which

10     building it was.  If it's building number 1, then the people were lined

11     up as I marked with 2.  If it was the building number 3, then the people

12     were lined up as shown in 4.  Because I can't see those stairs.

13             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... okay.  Well,

14     bearing in mind that you can't see the stairs, are you able to say,

15     nevertheless -- well, I suppose I should ask, as a preliminary question,

16     whether the room into which you entered had been those which overlooked a

17     portion of the yard.  Can you remember?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember.  That room did not

19     overlook this part of the yard where the prisoners were standing.  It

20     overlooked the other side.

21             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.  In

22     which -- Thank you.  In which case I needn't ask the question I intended

23     to ask.  Thank you, sir.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  And for the record, Your Honours, the exhibit

25     number is 1D385.

Page 15349

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Finally, Your Honours, I just

 2     forgot to tender the previous document concerning the measures of

 3     blockade.  It is true that the witness said he was not familiar with the

 4     document; but he was familiar enough with the measures of blockade.  He

 5     described what they consisted of and to whom they applied, and I believe

 6     this could be relevant.

 7             I therefore suggest that 1D00-0924 be admitted into evidence.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  What does that add to the oral testimony of the

 9     witness though?  I mean, the witness has described the events and

10     measures that were in place, so what does the document add?

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it adds the

12     identification of who prescribed these measures, who adopted, who passed.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D386, Your Honours.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, thank you for answering my questions.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

18     questions for this witness.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Cross -- re-examination.

20             Before Ms. Pidwell begins, for the record, the order admitting

21     the last-mentioned document as an exhibit was by a majority;

22     Judge Harhoff dissenting.

23                           Re-examination by Ms. Pidwell:

24        Q.   Sir, yesterday you were asked some questions by Mr. Krgovic, and

25     I wanted to ask you just some clarifying questions now about those.

Page 15350

 1             You spoke about the meetings that you chaired in your role as the

 2     president of the SDS, and you said that there was never any talk about

 3     violence amongst -- against Muslims, about expelling them or any

 4     discrimination.

 5             Do you recall making that statement?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   Now, I want to show you a document that -- that we looked at

 8     together.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  It's P ...

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MS. PIDWELL:  It was admitted -- sorry, under P377.

12             Sorry, Your Honours.

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MS. PIDWELL:  It's P1619.  Sorry, P1619.

15        Q.   Do you recall discussing this document, sir, which was the

16     minutes of the Municipal Board meeting on the 9th of May?

17        A.   Yes, yes, I remember that.

18        Q.   And you'll see --

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20        Q.   -- under the heading of Milan Kovacevic, that there was a

21     discussion about the replacement of staff which had been carried out with

22     all the SDA leaders removed from their functions in the

23     Municipal Assembly.

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I can see that.

Page 15351

 1        Q.   Were any SDA leaders replaced under the direction of the

 2     Municipal Board?

 3        A.   This is not an order of the Municipal Board.  This was done by

 4     the Crisis Staff after the takeover.  The date is 9 May, so it was after

 5     the takeover and after the institution of the Crisis Staff.  They did

 6     this.  And as I said in my previous testimony, these are officials,

 7     officials.  Those who held certain posts.  Other employees remained in

 8     their places until the conflict broke out.  I explained that even

 9     earlier, when you asked me the same thing.  It's not in dispute.

10             This was just discussed, in fact, reported, at the session of the

11     Municipal Board.

12        Q.   Yes.  But the -- the SDA leaders who took over, took over on the

13     day of the takeover, didn't they?  Not at this later date on the -- on

14     the 9th of May?

15        A.   That was just the inner circle, the main officials, the president

16     of the Municipal Assembly, and a few other people whom I can't remember

17     now.  But these are just officials, not employees.  And it says

18     "officials" here.

19        Q.   Yes, but were any Serb officials removed from their posts?

20        A.   I can't really remember.  I think there were such cases too.

21     Perhaps not immediately.  Perhaps a bit later.  If I can remember,

22     Spiro Marmas [phoen], the recording secretary, I think he was also

23     replaced.  I think that happened too.  But I can't give you any names.  I

24     wouldn't have been able to tell you about this either, if you hadn't

25     shown me this document.

Page 15352

 1             In businesses, Serbs were replaced.  One person was removed to

 2     make place for another.  People resisted.  That happened too.  For

 3     instance, the director of the post office, Marko Pavic, who is now at the

 4     head of the municipality of Prijedor, he was removed as director, and

 5     Slavko - I can't remember the last name - was appointed in his stead.

 6     So, yes, people were replaced.

 7        Q.   And the Serbs who you are talking about who were replaced, they

 8     were replaced with people who were submitting their names forward on

 9     behalf of the SDS; is that correct?

10        A.   Serbs.  Yes.  This was the core staff.  But many people were

11     replaced who were not even members of the SDS.  For instance, the

12     director of a large -- of a large enterprise.  There was no general rule.

13        Q.   Sir, let's have a look at another document.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  P377, please.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, line 6, page 41, I don't

16     think the witness's answer is properly recorded.  As far as I understood,

17     the witness said that many people were not replaced even if they were not

18     members of the SDS.  Perhaps Ms. Pidwell can --

19             MS. PIDWELL: [Previous translation continues] ... I appreciate if

20     my friend wouldn't tell the witness what he thinks he heard, but rather

21     just ask us to clarify that, please.

22        Q.   Sir, I'm going ask the question again, and I'd ask to you repeat

23     your answer, please.

24             The Serbs who you were talking about being replaced, they were

25     replaced with people whose names had been submitted on behalf of the SDS;

Page 15353

 1     is that correct?

 2        A.   They were members of the SDS.  They were members of the SDS.  But

 3     I said there were also cases when executives were not members of the SDS

 4     but they were not members of the S [as interpreted], like director of

 5     Zitopromet, Vaso Cvijic.  Marko Pavic, at the time, was not a member of

 6     the S; he was director of the post services.  And he would later become

 7     member of the SDS in 1993, and he would occupy the highest post.

 8        Q.   Let's have a look at P377, please.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry, again, just the same.  [Microphone not

10     activated] ... the same mistake.  This part is really missing.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

12     be asked to not only speak clearly but to enunciate as well.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ...

14             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm really in Your Honours' hands with this matter.

15     I wonder whether we need to seek independent verification of what the

16     witness has said, because it's twice that the Defence have intervened.

17     And I'm not sure whether it's with -- the interpreters have not caught it

18     or whether it's a different interpretation of what was said.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Well, inasmuch as what the interpreters had last

20     said, perhaps verification isn't going to assist.  If -- if, in fact, the

21     tapes are indistinct.

22             So, Mr. Witness, you heard what the interpreters have indicated,

23     that there is a problem in getting clearly what you are saying.  So

24     the -- Ms. Pidwell, I would ask you to try one more time.

25             And, Mr. Witness, I would remind you of what the interpreters

Page 15354

 1     said, to speak into the microphone and speak as distinctly as possible so

 2     that there is no confusion.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:

 4        Q.   Sir, we were talking about people being replaced from their

 5     posts, and my question was:  The Serbs who you said were being replaced

 6     in their posts were being replaced by people whose names were being

 7     submitted on behalf of the SDS.  And can you try and please provide your

 8     answer for a third time, slowly.

 9        A.   Those people were members of the SDS.  They were nominated by the

10     government, as reported by the president of the Executive Board,

11     Mico Kovacevic, that is, the Crisis Staff.  There were Serbs, executives,

12     directors, who were replaced.  Let's take the director of postal

13     services, Marko Pavic, who is currently at the head of the municipality

14     of Prijedor.  He was then replaced by the -- as post office director by

15     another man.  There were cases when directors were not replaced, although

16     they were members of the SDS -- although they were not members of the

17     SDS.  And I took as an example the director of Zitopromet, Vaso Cvijic,

18     who remained the whole time in that post.

19             Is it okay now?

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... third time,

21     yeah.  Finally, that's the correction.

22             MS. PIDWELL:

23        Q.   And when you say Marko Pavic was replaced, was he replaced by

24     another Serb or was he replaced by someone of another ethnicity?

25        A.   By a Serb, a member of the SDS.  Later, in 1993, as I said, Marko

Page 15355

 1     would come to occupy a top post in the SDS party in Prijedor.  But at

 2     that time, he wasn't a member.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Can we now have a look at document P377, please.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is a document dated the 28th of May.  It's a dispatch,

 5     a telegram, to SJB chiefs from Stojan Zupljanin, stating that employees

 6     who did not sign the declaration shall be dismissed as of 15 April 1992.

 7             Do you see that?

 8        A.   I can't see that.  Perhaps the letters can be enlarged, although

 9     part of the text is very faint.

10             All the employees who did not sign the solemn declaration --

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have two

12     objections:  First, I don't see how this follows from my

13     cross-examination; that's one objection.  And then when you make a

14     determination and after hearing from the Prosecutor, I can make the other

15     objection.

16             But there was no question in my cross-examination on this topic.

17     And the witness, by the way, was not in the police at the time, so I

18     don't see how he can answer.

19             JUDGE HALL:  That, too, occurred to me, Ms. Pidwell.  How is this

20     relevant in re-examination?

21             MS. PIDWELL:  I prefaced the -- this line of questioning,

22     Your Honours, by taking you to the -- the portion in the transcript,

23     15277 onwards, where the witness talked about there being no

24     discrimination against Muslims, no -- no -- no expulsions or measures

25     taken or discussed in SDS meetings about these measures being taken.  And

Page 15356

 1     he's -- so I took him to the first document which was when, in my

 2     submission, there was a discussion of a discriminatory nature.  And then

 3     when he said that this only applied to the leadership, this document

 4     shows that it actually filtered down to employees and other members.  And

 5     that's where I was going with this.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Let me hear Mr. Krgovic's second objection.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't want to

 8     object to the line of questioning.  My question about the meetings of the

 9     SDS was about the period before the takeover of power, and it -- the

10     question was:  At those meetings, before the takeover of power, was there

11     talk of discriminatory measures?  That was the line of my questioning.

12             I was focussing narrowly on that topic.  With no question of mine

13     did I deal with the topic of the events after the takeover of power.  You

14     will not find that anywhere in my cross-examination.

15             And, secondly, when the document was read to the witness, only

16     part of the sentence was read to him, but not all of it.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, it seems to me that there is merit in

18     Mr. Krgovic's objection.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, Your Honours, the -- the questions that were

20     formulated by Mr. Krgovic from my recollection were not specific to the

21     period before the takeover.  If I can -- if you bear with me,

22     Your Honours, I can take you to the appropriate portion in the

23     transcript.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Well, in any event, broadening this out, isn't it

25     the -- a matter for inference and argument at the end of the day?  How

Page 15357

 1     are the answers of this witness at this point going to assist?

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, Your Honours, he has made some pretty broad

 3     statements about no discriminatory measures being put in place, and my

 4     questions were focussed on that, to clarify that.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, but within the confines of -- of --

 6     the witness's knowledge of the -- if that's not stating the obvious.  But

 7     I don't wish you to wonder too far afield.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  Certainly, sir.

 9        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, were you aware that police employees who did not

10     sign the loyalty oath were dismissed from the new police force in

11     Prijedor?

12        A.   I understood your question to be, initially, as whether the SDS

13     had on its agenda discriminatory measures toward other ethnicities,

14     and --

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... please answer the

16     question --

17        A.   -- to that I replied --

18        Q.   Please answer the question that I've just put to you, which

19     was --

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   -- which was:  Are you aware or were you aware that police

22     employees were -- who did not sign the loyalty oath were dismissed?

23        A.   Well, they are mostly policemen who I know.  I met them even

24     afterward.  And, certainly, I got that information from them.  And

25     earlier, I wanted to explain, because you had also asked me about that.

Page 15358

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I want to move on to another topic now.

 2             You were questioned a number of times yesterday about the

 3     situation in Prijedor after the takeover, which occurred on the

 4     30th of April.

 5             Do you recall that?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   And you described the situation in Prijedor as being calm until

 8     the 30th of May, when the Muslim forces attacked again.

 9             Do you recall saying that?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   Were you actually in Prijedor for the month of May 1992?

12        A.   I was.

13        Q.   And were you aware that the town of Hambarine was shelled in that

14     month?

15        A.   Yes, but that was because two soldiers were killed in Hambarine.

16     And since all measures and appeals to surrender the perpetrators of that

17     attack were fruitless, the military dealt with the issue.  So the police

18     didn't have anything to do with it.  And the military shot from their

19     weapons.  And the appeals were broadcast on Radio Prijedor, and many

20     people insisted, called up the radio station on the phone, et cetera.

21     Even Mirza Mujadzic called.  I think it was before the takeover of power,

22     but I'm not sure.

23        Q.   And, sir, are you also aware that the village of Brezevo was

24     shelled in the month of May?

25        A.   There is neither Prezevo nor Brezevo in the municipality of

Page 15359

 1     Prijedor.  There is no such place.

 2        Q.   Maybe it's my pronunciation.  Brizevo?

 3        A.   And I don't remember any other occasion of shelling except for

 4     that one.

 5        Q.   Well, you're familiar with the town of Kozarac?

 6        A.   Yes, I am.

 7        Q.   And are you aware that the town of Kozarac was shelled?

 8        A.   Yes, I am.  I said as much, replying to a previous question of

 9     yours.  I went even up to Dera to see some destroyed buildings and so on.

10     But that's what I said earlier.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Can we have a look at document, please.  It's

12     P00432/12.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE HALL:  You are aware, of course, Ms. Pidwell, that this is

15     a confidential document?

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have not shown this

18     document to the witness, nor did I ask a line of questioning about this

19     report, and I don't know how it can be useful to the Prosecution.

20             The Prosecutor can ask the witness what she wants but not about

21     this document, which I never showed.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps we can go into private session while I deal

24     with this issue, directing Your Honours about the reasons for the

25     confidentiality and so forth.

Page 15360

 1             JUDGE HALL:  That's also an answer to Mr. Krgovic's objection

 2     about relevance and whether this is something that arises out of

 3     cross-examination?

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, yes, Your Honour.  The witness said on more

 5     than one occasion throughout the course of his cross-examination

 6     yesterday and today that the situation in Prijedor was calm until the

 7     Muslims attacked on the 30th of May.

 8             Now, it's the Prosecution's case -- and perhaps the witness can

 9     take off his headphones for this explanation.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Could you [Microphone not activated] ...

11             MS. PIDWELL: -- that the events in Prijedor in May were not calm.

12     Indeed, a lot of villages were being shelled, mosques were being burned,

13     people were being rounded up, the town of Kozarac was shelled and the

14     inhabitants taken to Keraterm and Omarska.  And so this document is a --

15     is a weekly bulletin of the police, stating that those events had taken

16     place.  I want to put it to him to see whether he wants to revise his

17     testimony that the situation was, indeed, calm in the municipality at

18     that time.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, but this was a line

20     of questioning pursued by the Prosecution in direct examination.

21             The witness already replied to it in the direct examination.  But

22     in the cross-examination, I asked no questions about these events,

23     neither about this report nor anything else.  I only asked about

24     Prijedor.  I did not ask anything about Hambarine or Kozarac or any other

25     settlement around Prijedor.  I asked questions only about the town of

Page 15361

 1     Prijedor.

 2             The Prosecutor could have pursued this in the direct examination.

 3     If the Prosecutor is allowed to question the witness about this, then I

 4     seek permission to examine the witness again.  The Prosecutor should have

 5     asked these questions in the examination-in-chief, rather than in the

 6     re-direct, because I never asked questions about these events.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to transcript page

 9     15236 of the Prosecution examination-in-chief.  That's where the

10     Prosecution stopped and failed to ask any additional questions.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honour, these matters are covered by

12     adjudicated facts.  I did not in my examination-in-chief cover any items

13     covered by adjudicated facts because we have the benefit of them and we

14     have the limitation of time.  When my learned friend Mr. Krgovic was

15     cross-examining, on numerous occasions he asked the witness about the

16     events in Prijedor and, particularly, after the takeover and relating to

17     the attack by the Muslims.

18             Now, the -- it was raised on no less than three occasions on --

19     during his cross-examination, and the upshot of that was that the witness

20     was trying to say that after the events in Prijedor on the 30th of April,

21     the situation was calm.  There were no incidents.  There was nothing

22     happening.  And he said that on numerous occasions under

23     cross-examination.

24             For example, page 1593 [sic] -- my learned friend asked the

25     question:

Page 15362

 1             "... you didn't get a specific instruction on the 30th

 2     or" anything "around that date ..."

 3             "No, no."

 4             So this is 30th of April.

 5             "No, no.  We just activated what existed on paper ..."

 6             And then he carries on to say:

 7             "There were no incidents, no conflicts, nothing.  Like in any

 8     town, there were Muslim and Croat bars and other shops in Prijedor that

 9     were not touched.  One can prove that.  But later on, there was an

10     escalation which had its consequences.  But that's a different story."

11             And what I'm trying to establish with Your Honours is that later

12     on, being after the takeover, there was an escalation, and that conflicts

13     did ensue in Prijedor.  And that is what I'm trying to clarify in

14     re-examination.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pidwell.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, Your Honours, going back to the document,

18     which is a confidential document, we may need to go into private session

19     for my explanation on this.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Private session, please.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15363

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11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  And we're back in open session, Your Honours.

21             MS. PIDWELL:

22        Q.   Sir, you have a document in front of you which is headed

23     "Weekly Update" for the period of 8 to 25 May 1992.  Do you see that?

24        A.   I do.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  And if we could turn, please, to the next page.

Page 15364

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you could enlarge it so I can

 2     see it.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:

 4        Q.   And if can I direct you simply to -- it's an example to the

 5     first -- the third paragraph down:

 6             "On the territory covered by the centre, there were

 7     23 explosions, 24 cases of law and order violations" and so forth.

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  And if we could turn to the next page --

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Pidwell, before we leave this page, my eye

12     just caught sight of the previous paragraph, which reads that:

13             "The direct cause leading to the escalation of the situation in

14     Prijedor area was an attack by the Muslim paramilitary units on a

15     military vehicle and reservists returning home from the front line."

16             My question to the witness is:  Do you recall this incident,

17     Mr. Miskovic?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recall.  It was dealt with

19     in the examination-in-chief and in the cross-examination.

20             It's the situation when the Muslim forces, the paramilitary

21     units, attacked the soldiers belonging to the legal units returning home

22     from the front line.  And huge efforts were made to -- to find the

23     perpetrators of that crime.  An appeal was launched to the citizens to

24     give information, and some citizens called the studio and commented on

25     the event.  That was explained.  Both this case and the murder of the

Page 15365

 1     Serb police officer on -- on the road.

 2             I think that it was all clearly dealt with in Hambarine.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

 4             Back to you, Ms. Pidwell.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:

 6        Q.   Sir, let's just not spend too long on this document.  But if we

 7     go to the top paragraph, if we're going backwards, you will see in the

 8     first paragraph it reads:

 9             "After an extended period of relative [sic] stable security

10     situation in the area covered by the Banja Luka CSB, the past week

11     brought fresh war destruction and new victims.  The areas of Kupres,

12     Bosanska Krupa call for additional effort on our part, and we are

13     re-directing our forces to mopping up the area [sic] of Prijedor and

14     Bihac."

15             Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is that a reference to more police forces coming into the area of

18     Prijedor because of unrest?

19        A.   I can only assume as much.  Because I see that this is a wider

20     area.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that

22     there's a problem with the translation of the document.  So if I could

23     ask the interpreters to sight-translate this section.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Are the interpreters able to read the first

25     paragraph of the document?

Page 15366

 1             If Your Honours require that.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Well, the first paragraph of what appears --

 3     no, what appears is the first paragraph on this page of the English

 4     translation.  Yes.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Our rules require that

 6     somebody in the courtroom read out the text and then we can interpret it.

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  All right.  After --

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  I think that requires someone to read out the

10     Serbian text.

11        Q.   Sir -- if the witness could -- if you could read the first

12     paragraph that you see in front of you.

13        A.   I've read it.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Could you read it out loud, sir.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "After an extended period of a

16     relatively calm security situation in the area of the Banja Luka CSB, the

17     previous week brought about new war destruction and victims.  The areas

18     of Kupres and Bosanska Krupa still require additional efforts of ours,

19     and we are re-directing our forces to improving the situation in the

20     areas of Prijedor and Bihac.  The situation is extremely complex ..."

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This was it, Your Honours, the

22     difference between mopping up and improving.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24             MS. PIDWELL:

25        Q.   I'll ask my question again then, sir.

Page 15367

 1             Is this, what you've just read out, on your understanding, a

 2     reference to more police forces coming into the area of Prijedor because

 3     of unrest?

 4        A.   That's what one can conclude, reading this paragraph, as help, or

 5     assistance.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [No interpretation]

 7             MS. PIDWELL:

 8        Q.   Sir, are you aware that the detention facilities of Omarska and

 9     Keraterm were established in the month of May 1992?

10        A.   I don't know the exact dates, when exactly it was.  The

11     Crisis Staff did that, and it was long ago.  Even what I heard I -- I've

12     forgotten till now.  But Omarska, Keraterm - and what's the other

13     called? - Trnopolje certainly existed.  That's not in dispute.  But when

14     they were opened, I don't know.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, in terms of the breaks, I always keep

16     first and foremost in mind the rhythm which is necessary for those who

17     have the care of the accused persons to be aware of, but bearing in mind

18     that in fact our last 20-minute break was somewhat more than 60 seconds

19     multiplied by 20, I'm wondering whether it would be practical for us to

20     continue beyond the present time with a view to your completing your --

21     your re-examination.  Or if you're going to be a substantial period of

22     time, we may as well take the break to get back on track.

23             MS. PIDWELL:  I think it's preferable to take the break now,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

Page 15368

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, if I may, there's been a discussion

 4     over the break between counsel over scheduling for the balance of the

 5     week, and there is a -- one of the witnesses has a personal engagement

 6     which requires him to leave before -- before the weekend.  And,

 7     accordingly, what the Prosecution is suggesting is that once we finish

 8     with this witness, we carry on to the next witness, ST-098, as scheduled.

 9     And we've spoken with the Defence counsel about the length of time for

10     her -- for her cross-examination, which was -- probably won't exceed four

11     hours in total, and then we are suggesting that we simply change the

12     batting order of the subsequent witnesses so that we are -- we call, as

13     the next witness, ST-163, in an effort to conclude his testimony and

14     cross-examination before the weekend and then finalize with the two new

15     witnesses.  And, if necessary, one can spill over to the weekend.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So noted.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are not going to

18     discuss it before this witness.  I think we should do so towards the end,

19     because one has to take into account the Defence's ability to prepare for

20     such changes.  But we're not going to discuss it before the witness now.

21             MS. PIDWELL:

22        Q.   Sir, during the course of your cross-examination, it was put to

23     you that there were no armed clashes after the takeover on the

24     30th of April - and I'm referring specifically to page 15300 of the

25     transcript - and you responded that there were none and that you, indeed,

Page 15369

 1     spoke to Mr. Cehajic after the conflict.  And although he wasn't happy,

 2     you still had a discussion with him.

 3             Do you recall saying that?

 4        A.   I do.  But it wasn't after the conflict; it was after the

 5     takeover.  It must have been a slip on your part.

 6        Q.   And after the -- do you recall how long after the takeover you

 7     spoke with Mr. Cehajic?

 8        A.   Perhaps the next day, or two, or maximum, three days later.

 9        Q.   And do you know what happened to Mr. Cehajic?

10        A.   At that time, I didn't know.  I found out later.  I heard.

11        Q.   When was the last time that you saw him?

12        A.   Well, I can't remember exactly when I last saw him.  I just told

13     you when I spoke to him.  His wife was a doctor, and I continued to see

14     her for a while later, but I can't remember when exactly I saw him last.

15     I -- I -- the last time we spoke, I can clearly see him in my mind's eye.

16     He was in a white shirt without a tie.  And I knew him because my brother

17     taught in the high school together with him.  My brother taught Serbian,

18     and he taught history.  My wife worked with his wife in the same

19     hospital.  My wife was a nurse, and his wife was a physician, a very nice

20     lady.

21        Q.   When you went to Omarska, did you ask about his whereabouts and

22     why he was being detained there?

23        A.   I did not inquire about him or anyone else.  I told you already,

24     I didn't know who was detained there.  I told you exactly how I came to

25     be there, under what circumstances, and for how long.  At that time, I

Page 15370

 1     didn't even know that he was there.  I just supposed that many of those

 2     people knew me, although I was unable to recognise them at that time for

 3     the reasons that I already stated.  I know that a large number of them

 4     knew me because of the work I did before the war, because of the post I

 5     held and later.

 6        Q.   So when did you actually find out that he was detained at

 7     Omarska?

 8        A.   I'm telling, I don't know that he was detained in Omarska.

 9        Q.   Sir, you were asked some questions by my learned friend - and I'm

10     specifically referring to page 15287 of the transcript.  You were asked

11     some questions about the arming of the Muslim side.  And you said, in

12     answer to a question:

13             "I said I didn't receive information directly, through my

14     contacts.  But I did hear it from military representatives that they are

15     armed.  Actually, both sides."

16             And then, subsequently, Mr. Krgovic says:

17             "... a correction to the transcript:  When you said ... they had

18     their structures and their weapons, you were referring to the Muslim and

19     Croat side; right?"

20             And you answered:

21             "Yes, yes."

22             I just want to clarify, sir, when you were talking about both

23     sides, which sides were you talking about?

24        A.   Most probably the Muslims and Croats.

25             I would like to hear the context of what I said.  Perhaps it

Page 15371

 1     would make it easier.

 2        Q.   Well, I can -- I've just read it out to you, sir, and you said

 3     "both sides."  And Mr. Krgovic then said to you:

 4             "... you were referring to the Muslim and Croat side ..." in

 5     terms of being armed.

 6             And my question is:  Who did mean when you said "both sides were

 7     being armed"?

 8        A.   Well, most probably the Muslims and Croats, because the Serbs in

 9     the army and the police, were armed.  Because they were under military

10     command.  Some under army command, others under police command, and they

11     had weapons.

12        Q.   So what you're saying is that the military representatives told

13     you that the Muslims and Croats were armed and then you said:

14             "Actually, both sides."

15             Are you referring to the Muslims and Croats being armed on the

16     one hand or the Serbs being armed on the on the other hand, or are you

17     just referring to the Muslims and Croats being armed?

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's not cross-examination, Your Honour.  Asked an

19     answered.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, I confess I too had some difficulty

21     with that question.  I heard it, but I was trying to process it before

22     Mr. ... and I suppose my reservation was not dissimilar to Mr. Krgovic's

23     formal objection.

24             You are, of course, re-examining.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Indeed, Your Honour, and I'm simply wanting to

Page 15372

 1     clarify the transcript at the moment.  At the moment, the transcript says

 2     one thing as the witness's answer, and then a leading question is put by

 3     my learned friend correcting that and suggesting that the two sides that

 4     were being referred to were the Muslim and Croats.  And I'm wanting to

 5     establish with the witness whether, indeed, he meant that the Muslims and

 6     Croats were being amend; or did he mean the two sides, being the Muslims

 7     and Croats on the one hand, and the Serbs on the other.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Well, he's heard the question.  If he is able to

 9     answer, he may proceed.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Sir, when you're talking about both sides being armed in this

12     context, are you talking about the Muslims and the Croats on the one

13     hand, and the Serbs on the other; or are you referring solely to the

14     Muslims and the Croats on --

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Objection.  It's leading.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, Ms. Pidwell.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.  I'll repeat.

18        Q.   Sir, when you're talking about two sides -- I'll read your answer

19     to you.  Well, I'll read the question; that may help you further.

20             The question was:

21             "As far as I understood you, you didn't hear from the Muslim side

22     that they have all that, but you got ... information that [sic] the army,

23     that there were such plans and such units and so on?"

24             And you said:

25             "I said that I didn't receive information directly, through my

Page 15373

 1     contacts.  But I did hear it from military representatives that they are

 2     armed.  Actually, both sides."

 3        A.   Armies.

 4        Q.   When you say the words "both sides," which side do you mean on

 5     the one hand and which side do you mean on the other hand?

 6        A.   Well, the Croat and the Muslim sides, because the Serb side was

 7     armed through military units, where they were involved, and police units,

 8     where they were involved.  We already spoke about that in great detail.

 9        Q.   Sir, you were further asked some questions today, earlier today,

10     about the town of Kozarac, and you answered that basically the events

11     that took place in Kozarac were done by the army and that -- but that you

12     said it was your idea, "our idea," and that nobody from the region was

13     involved in the negotiations with Kozarac.

14             Do you recall that?

15        A.   As far as the talks and negotiations are concerned, the talks to

16     prevent the conflict, we had a large number of talks and numberless

17     contacts when we met officially and unofficially and it was all geared

18     toward the same end.  However, we did not make the decision to attack

19     Kozarac.  That was done by the army.

20             And as you saw a moment ago, they had information about arming

21     and the level of weapons, and they decided on operations to be launched

22     in Hambarine, in Kozarac, and in other places where it was needed.

23        Q.   You were asked specifically whether Mr. Zupljanin took part in

24     the talks about Kozarac.  Did Simo Drljaca take part in the talks or the

25     negotiations that were about Kozarac?

Page 15374

 1        A.   As far as Kozarac and other areas are concerned, Drljaca was

 2     involved, Stakic, myself, Mico Kovacevic.  We were all involved in these

 3     talks.  I think we've already discussed this.  There is also the video.

 4        Q.   Sir, you were also asked some questions about the conditions at

 5     Omarska camp.  And you said, in response to a report that was shown to

 6     you, that you had some involvement with a building at Omarska and that it

 7     had been made for "that purpose."

 8             I think it's recorded at page 16 today.

 9             What -- what purpose are you referring to?  What was the purpose

10     of the -- of this Omarska structure before it became a camp in 1992?

11        A.   I used to be section commander, that is, in the police in

12     Omarska, and from that level I had direct contacts with the leadership of

13     the Ljubija mine, which commandeered land for the needs of the mine.  And

14     Hidrogradnja, Sarajevo.  I think Pozder [phoen] was the name of the

15     project manager.  And in that context I was familiar with the work and

16     the building done there.

17             Buildings for administration were being built, and a big

18     refectory, cafeteria, something like a factory, restaurant, where workers

19     could go, wash their hands.  That's the information I had until then,

20     until that visit.  And I used to work there as police section commander.

21        Q.   Were you aware of any bedrooms or dormitories or anything of that

22     nature at Omarska, in that building?

23        A.   No.  No, I did not.  No.

24        Q.   When you went there, did you see where the detainees slept?

25        A.   I didn't.  I told you, I just saw the outside.  And I told you

Page 15375

 1     they were standing outside.  And as I was going up the stairs, I saw them

 2     only the time it took me to pass by and go upstairs.

 3             I don't know any of these buildings, the -- the administrative

 4     buildings or the halls.

 5        Q.   And you recall you were asked some questions about -- and shown a

 6     photograph about -- there was some confusion over which building you

 7     actually went into.  You weren't sure whether it was the building you

 8     marked number 1 or number 3.

 9             Are you able to recall, when you entered the building with this

10     delegation, whether there was cafeteria there or not?

11        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I can't remember.  I hear it for

12     the first time.

13        Q.   So you don't recall seeing people eating, a cafeteria, a

14     restaurant-type facility, when you walked in with this delegation?

15        A.   No.  No, I really don't recall.  Most probably we were given a

16     snack or a drink, juice or coffee.  They must have served something.

17     I -- I still don't know whether it's the -- it was from a cafeteria or

18     from a makeshift facility.  I don't know.

19        Q.   You were also asked some questions about Mr. Krajisnik being

20     involved in -- in -- with the continuation of Simo Drljaca's role.  Do

21     you recall that?

22        A.   I remember that.  Not the role, but the replacement of

23     Simo Drljaca as chief.

24        Q.   Are you aware that he went on to become the assistant minister of

25     the interior in 1993?

Page 15376

 1        A.   Simo Drljaca?  No.  The first time I hear of it.

 2        Q.   So who took over from his role as the SJB chief in Prijedor?

 3        A.   Dusan Jankovic, professional policeman.  He used to be commander

 4     of the traffic police in Prijedor.

 5        Q.   And when did he take over?

 6        A.   After Simo was replaced.

 7        Q.   Are you able to assist us with -- a little bit more with the

 8     date?

 9        A.   I really couldn't.  All I know it was after that session, the

10     standing session of the Municipal Assembly, regarding the replacement of

11     executive staff in the municipality.  I don't even know when that session

12     took place.  It was, in fact, a session of the municipality, the

13     Assembly.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  If we can have a look at a document, please.  It's

15     P759.

16        Q.   Have a look at this, sir.  It may assist you in remembering the

17     date, or providing some context to it.  It's a publication dated the

18     9th of April, 1993, and it's an interview with Simo Drljaca.  And it's

19     headed:  "Interview with Simo Drljaca, assistant minister of the interior

20     of the Republika Srpska Krajina, with regard to his role in the chief

21     affair."

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, if we could, on the B/C/S, to -- just make

23     it a little bit smaller so we see the heading.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see it.  It's too small.

25             JUDGE HALL:  May I inquire, Ms. Pidwell, why is it that you're

Page 15377

 1     in, re-examination, pursuing this collateral issue with this witness?

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, sir, the witness gave evidence in

 3     cross-examination that the SDS did not stand behind Simo Drljaca and

 4     that -- and testified about him being removed, and I'm trying to

 5     establish when that happened.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  But we have the document in evidence.  It's --

 7     isn't the rest of it left for arguments at the end of the day, if this is

 8     an issue?

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, if Your Honour is happy with that, I will --

10     I will move on.

11        Q.   Sir, I now want to direct your attention to a couple of questions

12     asked by Mr. Cvijetic earlier today.  And, in particular, I'm referring

13     to page 26 and 27 of the transcript, and Mr. Cvijetic was talking to you

14     about Variant B.

15             And I just wanted to clarify.  Mr. Cvijetic said:

16             "The way I understood Variant B ... in essence, was the

17     establishment of Serb authorities and Serb municipalities in an area

18     where the Serbs were the majority population."

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Except I added to that and I

20     explained:  In parts of the municipality where Serbs were a majority.  If

21     you remember, that was my explanation, because I stopped halfway to

22     explain how the witness -- how I understood the witness explained it.

23             MS. PIDWELL:  I just want to clarify with the witness.

24        Q.   Sir, did Variant B apply to municipalities where there was a Serb

25     majority or a Serb minority?

Page 15378

 1        A.   The minority.  The Serbs were in a minority in such areas where

 2     representatives of other ethnic communities held power.

 3        Q.   And further on, you talked about the presence of the White Eagles

 4     in Prijedor.  Who were the White Eagles?

 5        A.   Three men who had proclaimed themselves to be White Eagles, they

 6     were immediately detained by the army, interrogated, and I believe a

 7     criminal complaint was filed against them.  It's the only incident that

 8     happened.

 9             MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honours,

10     I'm sorry, I have to interject.  Mr. Cvijetic was making signals to the

11     witness.  He cleared his throat, he tapped on the side of the desk with

12     his hand.  That's not the first time he's done it.  And I have to bring

13     it to your attention because it's highly improper.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I confess I didn't observe it, Mr. Hannis.

15             And if Mr. Hannis's observation is correct, then, Mr. Cvijetic,

16     you would desist.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will not do it

18     anymore.  I was just stopping the witness from speaking so fast.  He

19     keeps rushing in his speech.  We have enormous problems with the

20     transcript as it is.  I was trying to prevent him from going on at that

21     rate.  And I won't do it anymore.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Hannis is the last

23     person who should teach an attorney-at-law how to conduct himself in

24     court.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Well, gentlemen, now that we understand what this is

Page 15379

 1     about, we will -- let's get back on track.

 2             Ms. Pidwell, please continue.

 3             Mr. Hannis, do you need to pursue this?

 4             MR. HANNIS:  I have to respond to Mr. Krgovic's remark,

 5     Your Honour.  I think I have an obligation, as counsel in court, to try

 6     and ensure the integrity of the proceedings.  I reported something I saw

 7     not for the first time.  If that's what he's trying to do, which is

 8     legitimate exercise, the appropriate way to do is to address it with you.

 9     Not directly with the witness who's sitting nearly in his lap.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Well, Mr. Cvijetic's explanation is that he now

11     appreciates that his efforts to be helpful may have been misinterpreted.

12     And he has agreed to conform his behaviour in the future to dealing with

13     matters like this in a manner that would not invite controversy.

14             So the matter is settled, and we can move on.

15             Yes, Ms. Pidwell.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, Your Honours, I just need to get back to

17     where -- where we were.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             MS. PIDWELL:  Right.

20        Q.   Sir, you -- we were talking about the White Eagles and their

21     presence in Prijedor, and you've explained who they are.

22             Are you able to explain when they arrived in Prijedor?

23        A.   No, they didn't arrive.  Three people from Prijedor suddenly

24     became self-proclaimed White Eagles.  But they were immediately

25     apprehended by the military police and detained.  And I believe that they

Page 15380

 1     were tried.

 2             I just want to show, with that, that there were some individuals

 3     who tried to do some things, but they were neutralized immediately.

 4        Q.   And just finally, sir, you were asked some questions about a

 5     document, referring to people needing permission to leave the

 6     municipality, and you -- you said that even you needed a document in

 7     order to -- to leave the municipality at this time.

 8             From whom would you obtain that -- that documentation?

 9        A.   From the Crisis Staff.

10             For going to Serbia, as far as I remember, I had to take out a

11     permit from the -- from the draft office so -- confirming that I was not

12     a deserter or something like.

13             I do know that my brother-in-law, my wife's brother, died in

14     Kosovska Mitrovica.  We wanted to go there, to the funeral, but we

15     weren't allowed to cross the border.  So she couldn't attend the funeral.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  I have

18     a comment on the -- on the transcript.  Could the witness just repeat

19     from whom he needed a permission to go to Serbia?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, I needed a

21     certificate from the People's Defence to show that you were travelling

22     officially or that you weren't in -- a deserter.  But as far as, I said

23     it was from the People's Defence that you had to get it.  Because some

24     sort of guarantee was required that the person questioned would not

25     desert or run away.

Page 15381

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Miskovic, you have explained to us during

 4     your testimony in the last couple of days how the situation became very

 5     tense in Prijedor and how much fear was felt by most of the inhabitants

 6     in Prijedor and surrounding villages.

 7             You explained to us that on the 25th of April there was a meeting

 8     that took place in Cirkin Polje and that another meeting was then held on

 9     the 29th of April, four days later, to discuss these issues.  And you

10     told us that, at the last occasion, it was decided to actually take over

11     control in Prijedor, and you told us that this was decided in order to

12     retain the relative calmness and peace that still existed.  So you told

13     us that the purpose of the takeover was to keep things under control.

14             Now, please, Mr. Miskovic, wait and listen to my questions.  I

15     have two questions to you.

16             The first question is whether, to your knowledge, the CSB in

17     Banja Luka was informed about the discussions to take over control in

18     Prijedor and, ultimately, whether the CSB in Banja Luka was informed when

19     the decision was made on the 29th of April to take over control in

20     Prijedor.  Do you know if -- if the -- if the actors who were involved in

21     the discussions and the decision to take over control in Prijedor, were

22     they in constant communication and contact with the CSB in Banja Luka; do

23     you know that?

24             That's my first question.

25        A.   I don't know that.  I explained in detail that after that

Page 15382

 1     dispatch, we spoke about that.  But I arrived when the decision was

 2     already made.  The structure about which I spoke had already been in

 3     place.  And I arrived when there was only talk about what should be done

 4     and when.  And the meeting was called for 2.00 a.m., and the

 5     representatives of the TO, Mr. Kuruzovic, and the police representative,

 6     Mr. Drljaca, briefed everybody present about the situation.  And then the

 7     implementation began at 4.00 a.m.

 8             Whether they had any previous commands [as interpreted] with the

 9     command of the corps or with the CSB, I don't know because I wasn't

10     informed of it.  And according to the dispatch we analysed here, Simo did

11     submit a report to the CSB later that there had been a takeover of power.

12     But nobody informed me.  I wasn't up-to-date whether there was

13     information flow toward the military or police structures.

14             The garrison commander, Colonel Arsic, and his deputy, the

15     TO commander, the representatives of the police, and so on, were there,

16     and I came there after a meeting at the MUP.  They were already sitting

17     there and taking decisions.

18             I have already explained as much.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  My question was prompted by the --

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I have a slight

21     correction of the transcript.  The witness, on page 69,

22     line 21 -- "whether they had any previous commands" is what the

23     transcript reads, but the witness said "contact," rather than "commands."

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.  I understood as much.

25             But just to round up to you, Mr. Miskovic.  My question was

Page 15383

 1     prompted by the information you gave or that we have seen in the

 2     documents that were shown to you, that apparently about 1500 policemen

 3     were involved in the action, so my question to you was whether you had

 4     any information that the CSB in Banja Luka had been advised about where

 5     things were going in -- in Prijedor.

 6             My second question to you goes to the -- the purpose of this

 7     action, really.  Because you told us that the decision to take over

 8     control in Prijedor was prompted by the attempt to keep things under

 9     control and prevent escalation of a conflict that was already brewing,

10     and so you decided to take over control of the town by assuming power of

11     the Municipal Assembly, and the SJB, and all the public institutions that

12     could you get your hands on.  And we also saw the evidence by

13     Mr. Kovacevic that, subsequent to this, the -- the leading SDA members in

14     the Municipal Assembly were dismissed and replaced by Serbs.

15             Now, my question to you is:  Did you, at the time, think that

16     this would prevent the conflict from escalating?  Did you really believe

17     that this would keep things under control?  To be honest, my immediate

18     reaction would have been the opposite; that, if any of the parties

19     involved in negotiation certainly decide unilaterally to take power, that

20     would almost inevitably prompt a counter-response from the other parties

21     involved in the negotiations, so that by taking over power, you may

22     perhaps have achieved a few days, or maybe a week of silence, but soon

23     thereafter, you were bound to have reactions from the Muslim and the

24     Croat societies, and, indeed, you did get reactions.

25             So I'm curious to know, from someone who was involved in the

Page 15384

 1     events at the time, what was really the wisdom of this?  Was there a

 2     major plan behind it?  Or how could you possibly have thought that this

 3     would calm down things?

 4             Can you answer me?

 5        A.   I can.  I'm glad you asked me this question, although we've

 6     spoken about that in the examination.

 7             It is true, as you put it, that until that time there was peace.

 8     But the basic reason for taking over control, as has been confirmed

 9     several times over, was not the immense desire to rule or dominate

10     somebody; but, on the contrary, to prevent confrontation.

11             Control wasn't taken over, nor was any activity to that effect

12     taken, and no Serb municipality was established from local communes in

13     the Prijedor municipality until this dispatch arrived, which required the

14     Croatian and Muslim forces, that is, citizens, to intercept military

15     vehicles, attack barracks, block roads.  It has been read here.  I don't

16     have to enumerate it all.

17             That was the fuse that set it all off.  And the only possibility

18     was to take over control, when that dispatch arrived to prevent the

19     people from attacks barracks and so on, and I had the opportunity -- or,

20     rather, everybody in Prijedor had -- had had the opportunity to see what

21     happened in Croatia before that, and in Slovenia, with attacks barracks

22     and so on.  In order to prevent all that, the decision was taken to take

23     over control.  It was only for these reasons that this was done.  And it

24     can be seen from the documents that there haven't been any incidents in

25     that context until the attack on those soldiers that were coming from

Page 15385

 1     back from the front line at Hambarine.  And that triggered the reaction

 2     of the army.

 3             After the agreement that the military would secure the road to

 4     Banja Luka, there was a roadblock set up in Kozarac.  And those were the

 5     reasons for taking over control.  It wasn't anybody's desire to dominate.

 6     But we have already seen that in the examination of the OTP and the

 7     Defence.  And the genesis of it all has also been explained.  It isn't

 8     all black and white.  In the Balkans and in former Yugoslavia, the

 9     memories of such events go back a long time.

10             If you have additional questions or if you're not satisfied with

11     my answer, go ahead and ask me some more questions.  I'll be glad to

12     answer, if I can.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Miskovic.  You have indeed

14     answered my questions.  And I realize that the scramble for power is

15     something that goes a long way back in your history.  Thank you very

16     much.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Miskovic.  We are grateful for your

18     assistance to the Tribunal.  Your testimony is at an end, and you're now

19     released.  We wish that you have a safe journey back to your home.

20             The usher would now escort you from the courtroom.  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.  And I'm glad if I

22     could make a modest contribution to establishing the truth about the

23     events in Prijedor municipality.  Thank you once more.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Before the next witness is called, we have a brief

Page 15386

 1     oral ruling which is as follows:

 2             The Trial Chamber is seized of the oral request made by the

 3     Defence on the 30th of September and the 4th of October to postpone the

 4     testimony of the witness Ewan Brown, the Prosecution's military expert,

 5     to the end of the Prosecution's case, or, alternatively, to postpone his

 6     cross-examination.

 7             The Prosecution responded on both occasions.

 8             The Trial Chamber notes that it is in the interests of justice

 9     that the Defence be in a position to prepare fully for the

10     cross-examination of Ewan Brown.  Given that he is scheduled to commence

11     testifying on the 20th of October and the extensive material, including

12     the Mladic material, some of which was only disclosed in mid-September,

13     that the Defence will need to review to cross-examine Ewan Brown

14     effectively, the Trial Chamber will only hear his examination-in-chief in

15     October, and considering the witness's busy schedule, he shall appear for

16     again for cross-examination during the week commencing the

17     10th of January, 2011.

18             Thank you.

19             Yes, is the Prosecution ready with its next witness?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to take

21     advantage of the time before the witness is called to discuss the

22     schedule for this week.

23             I believe that Ms. Pidwell, citing the conversation with the

24     Defence, misinterpreted our agreement.

25             Ms. Korner left the courtroom with the latest information that

Page 15387

 1     she related to the us, that Witness ST-163 most probably would be

 2     postponed for next week because of private commitments.  And also, with

 3     regard to the pace of the proceedings this week, we see no other solution

 4     but this, and this what I believe was our informal agreement.

 5             If there should be a reshuffling witness, that is, if

 6     Witness ST-163 could be heard immediately after the expert witness,

 7     Ms. Tabeau, we believe that it would be detrimental to the Defence

 8     because in this situation we are unable to keep up with this rapid pace

 9     and the ambitious list of the OTP for this week.

10             The witness who has testified already is relevant, and so his

11     examination took quite some time.  We also expect Ms. Tabeau's testimony

12     to be relevant.  And the same applying to ST-163.  All three of these

13     witnesses have the support of extensive documentation and materials,

14     which makes us unable to efficiently prepare for such a sudden change

15     of -- in the order of appearance of the witnesses.

16             This is detrimental to the interests of the Defence, and we will

17     not be able to accommodate.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Pidwell, we are not quite certain of the

21     immediate schedule.  Is the plan to hear Mrs. Tabeau now, and then move

22     on straight from her to Witness 163?  Is that the plan?  Or do you

23     request to have 163 brought to the stand immediately now?

24             MS. PIDWELL:  No, Your Honour, you're right that we propose to

25     call Ms. Tabeau now.  And -- and then -- the only change is to move the

Page 15388

 1     crime-based witness up to after ST-163 who has a family commitment on

 2     Saturday to ensure that can actually return home for that.

 3             And we have made some inquires with the Registry to see if --

 4     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Overlapping speakers] ... I understand --

 6             MS. PIDWELL: -- so it's just that small reshuffle.  And in my

 7     submission, Your Honours, if the Defence are unable to keep up with the

 8     speed of the trial this week, it's their choice to --

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Ms. Pidwell.

10             Mr. Cvijetic, it seems that we will now hear the expert witness,

11     Ms. Tabeau, today, and probably most of tomorrow.  Then for Thursday, we

12     will hear Witness 163.  And that's according to the schedule.  So you're

13     not losing out on any time, as far as I can see.

14             According to the schedule that we have in front of us,

15     Witness 163 is scheduled for Thursday and Friday of this week.

16             So what is your problem exactly?

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you didn't mention

18     that Witness 227 was supposed to testify before him.  ST-227.  And the

19     Prosecution applied for two and a half hours for him, and the Defence

20     also applied for as much time.  That is at least one more day.  And

21     bearing in mind the time allotted --

22             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic,

23     if I understood Ms. Pidwell correct, the plan is simply to skip

24     Witness 227 at this point and hear him at a later stage.  So we will move

25     straight from the expert, Dr. Tabeau, to Witness 163.  He was scheduled

Page 15389

 1     to arrive here and begin his testimony on Thursday, the 7th of October,

 2     and that is, indeed, what he will do.

 3             So you cannot, with any strength, claim that you haven't had time

 4     to prepare his -- his testimony -- to prepare for his testimony, sorry.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when we get the

 6     schedule, we prepare accordingly.  Now, suddenly, we have to prepare for

 7     ST-163 because ST-227 has been skipped.  This disturbs our preparation

 8     process for the cross-examination.  That is the problem.  Because we

 9     proceed according to schedule.  And now this change has come very

10     suddenly.  We have too little time to prepare for Witness 163.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, we see no merit in your objection, and

14     it's -- it's on the record, but we over -- we see no reason why the

15     Prosecution cannot proceed in the -- ought not to proceed in the manner

16     in which they proposed.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honour, my colleague, Mr. Di Fazio, will be

18     leading the next witness.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before that, if I

20     may, I would like to raise a procedural matter.

21             Today is a deadline for us to reply to the Prosecution's

22     submission about the calling of a witness about adjudicated facts.  In

23     the previous trials where they were testified, they were accorded

24     protective measures, so I would like to seize the opportunity to raise

25     this matter orally so that we needn't respond in writing.

Page 15390

 1             MS. PIDWELL: [Previous translation continues] ... I would object

 2     to that.  The Defence were directed to file a response by today.  The

 3     deadline for that is 4.00 this afternoon, or 12.00 midnight.  And we have

 4     a witness waiting outside.  I would -- the normal course of action is for

 5     Defence to reply in writing to written motions, rather than use valuable

 6     court time to deal with something while we've got a witness outside.  And

 7     we're on a tight schedule.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to

 9     utter a single sentence.  But if that's a waste of time, okay, we can put

10     it on paper.  I just wanted to be more efficient.

11             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... what's the

12     single sentence, Mr. Krgovic?

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  We take no position.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] ... bring in the

16     witness.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good afternoon to you, madam.  I trust you can

20     hear us in a language you understand.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you for coming down and give us your

23     testimony in this trial.

24             May I start out by asking you to read the solemn declaration,

25     please.

Page 15391

 1             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 2     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  EWA TABEAU

 4     JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, madam.  You may be seated.

 5             Madam, would you be good enough to tell us your name and your

 6     date of birth.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ewa Tabeau.  I was born

 8     on 26th of April, 1958.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  And what is your current

10     occupation?

11             THE WITNESS:  I'm a demographer.  I'm the chief of

12     Demographic Unit in the ICTY Prosecutor's Office.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

14             Madam Tabeau, you are aware of the fact that you have been called

15     here in this trial against Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin, who are

16     sitting here, as an expert in respect of the demographic changes that

17     took place during the time that is covered by this indictment.  We have

18     carefully studied your reports, and they have been admitted into

19     evidence.

20             The Prosecution -- or maybe I should ask you first, but I thought

21     it was redundant because it appears from your reports that you have,

22     indeed, testified earlier, but can you tell us in which cases you have

23     testified -- in the -- in the capacity of an expert?

24             THE WITNESS:  I testified so far 14 times in the -- as an expert

25     witness for the Prosecutor -- Prosecution.  And one time I was called by

Page 15392

 1     the Defence.  I was an expert for the Defence.  I testified in cases such

 2     as Slobodan Milosevic.  I testified in Sarajevo cases, that would be

 3     Dragomir Milosevic and General --

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Galic.

 5             THE WITNESS: -- Galic.  Yes, sir.  I testified in Popovic, that

 6     would be Srebrenica.  I testified in Lukic and Lukic.  I testified in

 7     Simic et al.  I testified in the Stakic case, in Prijedor.  I might have

 8     missed some, but the list of my testimonies, I believe, is attached with

 9     my qualifications.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Have you ever testified as an expert

11     in relation to the events which you have covered in your expert reports

12     before other courts than this court?

13             THE WITNESS:  No.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

15             Let me get back to the plan that I was going to line out for you,

16     then.

17             The Prosecution, represented by Mr. Di Fazio, has requested two

18     hours to examine you in-chief on the basis of the reports that have been

19     admitted into evidence.  And each of the two teams for Defence have

20     requested four hours, each of them.  And as I know that you are well

21     familiar with the procedures here, I need not tell you that you are

22     required to give truthful answers and that there is a severe penalty for

23     providing false or incomplete evidence or information to the Chamber, and

24     finally that your quality as expert witness makes it possible for you to

25     offer evaluations rather than just mere facts that pertain to the case.

Page 15393

 1             This is as much as I would have to say at this stance, so I give

 2     the floor to Mr. Di Fazio to go through the CV with you.

 3             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes, perhaps before I do that, if I could just

 4     continue in the vein that Your Honour has just set out, namely, some

 5     introductory matters, part of which have been addressed by the

 6     Trial Chamber.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

 8        Q.   You're here today and tomorrow to basically testify about

 9     three -- three reports.  Firstly is a report that you prepared back in

10     2003, entitled the -- or titled:  "The Ethnic Composition:  Internally

11     Displaced Persons and Refugees from 47 municipalities for 1991 to

12     1997/1998," and that's the -- I'm going to refer to that as Milosevic

13     report.  That's one of your reports, isn't it?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15             MR. DI FAZIO:  For the record, that's 65 ter 10.398.

16        Q.   The second report, principle report, that you're going to tell us

17     about and discuss is an addendum to that report that you prepared

18     specifically for this case.  And, again, that deals with ethnic

19     composition and internally displaced persons, and that was prepared in

20     April of last year but is more confined and only deals with the

21     indictment municipalities in this case.

22             Is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24             MR. DI FAZIO:  For the record that is 10399, 65 ter 10399.

25        Q.   The third report that you're going to -- sorry, perhaps before I

Page 15394

 1     go on to the third report, there's one other matter I should raise in

 2     relation to this addendum report, and that is:  Before the summer break,

 3     you had occasion to -- to review that particular report, the addendum

 4     report prepared specifically for this case, and you had to make some

 5     corrections, and you prepared a -- an addendum.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Not to the report on IDPs and refugees.  I did prepare an

 7     addendum, but it was to the third report.

 8        Q.   Yes.  My apologies.  You're quite right.  You had to replace some

 9     pages from -- from the -- from the addendum report, and -- is that

10     correct?

11        A.   In the IDPs report, in detail, I think three pages were replaced.

12     That's correct.

13        Q.   Yes.  Okay.

14             MR. DI FAZIO:  And if Your Honours please, those replacement

15     pages in the record is 65 ter 10399.1.

16        Q.   And the third major report that you will discuss is the one

17     entitled "Victims of War," related to the Mico Stanisic and

18     Stojan Zupljanin indictment.  That's dated February of this year.

19             And is -- is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.  It was the third report, victims report.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, that's 65 ter 10400.

22        Q.   You also then create -- added an addendum or correction to that

23     report, and that was the one that you -- you prepared just before the

24     summer break, and that consists of about three pages.

25             Is that correct?

Page 15395

 1        A.   Yes, it is correct.

 2             MR. DI FAZIO:  And if Your Honours please, that's 65 ter 10400.1.

 3        Q.   In addition, given the size of your reports, you've prepared two

 4     summaries from two of those reports.  The summary of results dealing with

 5     ethnic composition and internally displaced persons, derived from the

 6     report on displacement of persons prepared specifically for this case.

 7        A.   Yes, it's correct.

 8             MR. DI FAZIO:  And if Your Honours please, that's 65 ter 10397.

 9        Q.   And finally, a summary that you prepared from your third and

10     final report, the "Victims of War" report; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is correct.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  And if Your Honours please, that's 65 ter 10400.2.

13        Q.   The -- go through the nature and objective of each report.

14             The Milosevic report, I believe, is quite wide.  It covers

15     47 municipalities and also includes the 18 municipalities that you

16     focussed on for your second report specific to this case?

17        A.   Yes, it's correct.

18        Q.   It mostly covers what is the present-day Republika Srpska?

19        A.   Yes.  That is generally the truth.  There were some areas in the

20     Federation, but in majority is the Republika Srpska.

21        Q.   Thank you.  In that report, you set out the -- the methodology

22     adopted by you in writing these reports concerning population

23     displacement in the sections dealing with objective and scope at pages 4

24     to 10 of that report, and Annex C, at pages 226 to 231 of that report.

25        A.   That's correct.  In addition to this, in Annex B, sources used

Page 15396

 1     for this report were discussed in detail.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Thank you.  Essentially, the objective of the

 3     Milosevic report was to provide a report on the ethnic composition in

 4     Bosnia and the minimum numbers of internally displaced persons and

 5     refugees in Bosnia.  And, of course, when I say "Bosnia," I'm talking

 6     about the 47 municipalities that were the subject of that study.

 7        A.   Yes.  It is correct.  It is also not wrong to say in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as the Milosevic, the 47 municipalities, were a

 9     subset of the analyses completed for all municipalities in the entire

10     country.  Regarding the ethnic composition, we looked at the change in

11     ethnic composition at the outbreak of the war and after the war, in 1991

12     and -- versus later, 1997/1998.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now the addendum report that you prepared for this

14     case, specifically for this case, is, as I said earlier, essentially the

15     same as the Milosevic report but limited in scope to 18 municipalities?

16        A.   Yes, it's correct.

17        Q.   However, you used the same analyses, the same statistical

18     sources, and there was the same objective in the report, except that it

19     was more confined, less municipalities?

20        A.   Yes, it is all correct.  As the methodology and sources were used

21     for the entire country, the entirety Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So the subset

22     of 18 is just part of the overall area of the entire country.

23        Q.   Thanks.  And the third report that you've -- third principle

24     report that you've mentioned, the "Victims of War" report, you correct me

25     if I'm wrong, but that is essentially a report dealing with the numbers

Page 15397

 1     of deaths arising from the war in the period 1st of April, 1992, to

 2     31st of December, 1992, and covering the indictment area?

 3        A.   Yes, it's correct.  And this is the number of deaths, war-related

 4     deaths on the first place, but also missing persons.  Missing persons are

 5     part of that analysis as well.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And this report covers the war-related deaths of both

 7     soldiers and civilians?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 9        Q.   The methodology, I believe, is contained in section 2.1 at

10     pages 2 to 4?

11        A.   Yes, this is correct.  And there is another related paper which

12     explains the methodology and sources, the so-called "Berlin paper,"

13     conference paper, which is associated in some way with this report.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Di Fazio, I dislike stopping you at this --

15     abruptly at this point, but I'm advised that you need a minute -- the OTP

16     needs a minute, before we take the adjournment in 30 seconds, to deal

17     with a housekeeping matter.

18             MR. DI FAZIO:  I've got one more question, and that will wrap up

19     this particular topic.  I'll then -- tomorrow, I can move on to her other

20     issues of expertise.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:

23        Q.   And finally, the last question for today:  On this "Victims of

24     War" report, unlike the other two, the Milosevic report and the addendum

25     report prepared specifically for this case, the "Victims of War" report

Page 15398

 1     is based on 12 databases of statistics and numbers that you obtained from

 2     Bosnia; essentially is that correct?

 3        A.   Essentially, it is correct.

 4        Q.   Thanks.

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:  Well, this would be a convenient time, if

 6     Your Honours please.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Tabeau, we are -- you're well-versed in the

 8     court schedules, and we're about to take the break for today to resume in

 9     this chamber at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

10             The -- we have a brief housekeeping matter which we will deal

11     with as the usher escorts you from the courtroom.

12             Thank you, ma'am.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             I have two.  The first one regards scheduling this week.  Out of

18     an abundance of caution, the Prosecution would like to request the

19     possibility of an extended sitting on Thursday afternoon in order that we

20     can complete all the witnesses scheduled for this week.  I understand

21     that there may be a courtroom available.  And if Your Honours are willing

22     to consider that, I wanted to make the request now so we can plan

23     accordingly.

24             JUDGE HALL:  The Registry confirms that there would be a

25     courtroom available.

Page 15399

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 2             The second matter concerns --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  One session, or ... when you say "extended

 4     sitting," one further session or what?

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'm not sure.  I think we'll have a

 6     better feel for that when we see how quickly we go with Ms. Tabeau.  I

 7     would ask for two sessions now out of an abundance of caution and then

 8     adjust accordingly.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  From the Chamber's point --

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE HALL:  From the Chamber's point of view, it looks as if we

13     may be able to accommodate one session on Thursday.  We would see what

14     the -- inquire as to the Defence convenience, and they can respond first

15     thing tomorrow morning.

16             You said there was a second matter, Mr. Hannis.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The second regarded the

18     witness Ewan Brown.  I think, when Ms. Pidwell advised you earlier in the

19     week about his situation in our efforts to try and have him done during

20     that week of October 20th to the 22nd, now in light of Your Honours'

21     decision, Ms. Korner has asked me to advise the Court that it would be

22     the Prosecution's intention to try and present his entire evidence in the

23     new year, rather than have a bifurcation between his testimony in direct

24     and cross-exam.  And the reason for that is his professional schedule.

25             I don't know the exact details, but I do recall he has some sort

Page 15400

 1     of 90-day contract of work he's doing in a place far away, and he was

 2     able to give us five days in October.  But I don't know that he can give

 3     us five days in October and five or seven days in January.

 4             So it's the Prosecution's intention, and we would then schedule

 5     somebody else for three days in October now.  I just wanted to notify

 6     everyone that that's our intention.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So we take the adjournment to tomorrow

 9     morning at 9.00.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

12                           October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.