Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16714

 1                           Tuesday, 2 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8     Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Matthew Olmsted, Tom

12     Hannis, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Claire Plumb, appearing for Stanisic Defence

15     this morning.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

17     Aleksandar Aleksic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             Is there anything to which we need turn our attention before the

20     next witness is called?

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours.  If we could go into closed

22     session, I would like to raise an issue regarding protective measures for

23     the next witness.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE HALL:  So we move into private session.

Page 16715

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Page 16716











11 Pages 16716-16723 redacted. Private session.















Page 16724

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25                           [Open session]

Page 16725

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just for the transcript 1676 ... just for the sake

 3     of transcript, 1676 should be under seal, yes.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  I think that was not in dispute on the

 6     transcript, but, yeah, it should be under seal.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:

 9        Q.   Sir, you've mentioned that in May 1992 you were mobilised into

10     the State Security Service of the MUP of the Republika Srpska; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Who issued that mobilisation order?

14        A.   I was mobilised on that date at the request of Mr. Vojin Bera,

15     who was, at the time, deputy chief of the centre of the state security in

16     Banja Luka.  The Prijedor department was an organisational part of the

17     Banja Luka centre.

18        Q.   And how did Mr. Bera communicate this order to you?

19        A.   I received a telephone call telling me to report to the official

20     premises of the Prijedor department, and I responded to this summons

21     immediately.

22        Q.   And did Mr. Bera also meet with you in person?

23        A.   Yes.  I found Mr. Bera on the official premises of the state

24     security department in Prijedor, alongside other active-duty employees.

25        Q.   And when you refer to "other active-duty employees," would those

Page 16726

 1     be state security employees or public security employees?

 2        A.   At that time, those were state security employees.

 3        Q.   And you state that you met with Bera on the official premises of

 4     the state security department.  Would that be at the SJB building in

 5     Prijedor?

 6        A.   Yes.  The SDB offices are part, or occupied a part of the

 7     building on the second floor of the Public Security Service building.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us the date of this particular meeting?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, that was on the 26th of May, 1992.

10        Q.   And during this meeting, did Mr. Bera explain to you why you were

11     being mobilised?

12        A.   Yes, he did.  On that occasion, informed me and the other

13     colleagues present there about the situation becoming increasingly

14     complex in the Prijedor municipality according to the intelligence that

15     the service had available at the time, and a decision was, hence, made

16     for a number state security employees from the reserve force to be

17     mobilised and included in the activities together with the active-duty

18     employees working in the State Security Service.

19             He also said that we were going to work together with the

20     inspectors from the SJB of Prijedor.

21        Q.   And did he tell you what kind of work you would be performing

22     with the members of the Public Security Service?

23        A.   He briefly said that they had information that the population was

24     procuring fire-arms illegally, en masse, that there was a possibility of

25     a large-scale disturbances of public law and order and that, to that end,

Page 16727

 1     measures should be taken to prevent it.

 2        Q.   Did he tell you, you would be interrogating non-Serb detainees

 3     regarding these issues?

 4        A.   Well, he said that we were going to interrogate or interview

 5     persons who were predominantly of the Bosniak or Muslim ethnicities but

 6     that there will also be people of other ethnicities.

 7        Q.   At the time of this meeting, had a number of non-Serbs already

 8     been arrested and placed into custody in Prijedor?

 9        A.   Well, I learned that once we started working.

10        Q.   And according to the information you received, who arrested these

11     non-Serbs?

12        A.   I cannot tell you 100 percent for sure who it was who made those

13     arrests, but I think it was done by members of the public security

14     station.  I don't know if the army was involved.

15        Q.   At this initial stage, where were these detainees held?

16        A.   They were held in a detention room for people who were brought

17     in.  It is located in the auxiliary building of the public security

18     station of Prijedor on the ground floor.

19        Q.   How soon after this 26 May meeting did you and the other SDB

20     officers begin interrogating detainees?

21        A.   As far as I can remember, it started the following day.  It was

22     done in the offices of the Prijedor public security station.

23        Q.   And at some point, did you move to another facility to conduct

24     these interrogations?

25        A.   Yes.  We worked there one or two days, but given that the number

Page 16728

 1     of the people brought in was significant, the conditions were not good

 2     for us to operate there, and we moved to the building of Keraterm work

 3     organisation.

 4        Q.   And how long did you work out of Keraterm for?

 5        A.   We also worked there for about two or three days, after which it

 6     was ordered for those persons to be transported to the Omarska mine near

 7     Prijedor.

 8        Q.   And do you know why the detainees were moved to Omarska?

 9        A.   I don't have any information about a specific reason, but I can

10     only assume that this had to have ample space available in -- at Ljubija

11     mine, and there were other offices available there as well.

12        Q.   And who moved the detainees from Keraterm to Omarska?

13        A.   I don't know who issued the order, but I know that members of the

14     public security stations provided buses for transporting these people to

15     Omarska.

16        Q.   How long did you work at Omarska camp for?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  Page 15, line 8, it says:

18             "But I know that the members of the public security stations

19     provided buses."

20             I don't think that's what the witness said.  No, I know it's not

21     what the witness says, so if can you check -- please clarify.

22             MR. OLMSTED:

23        Q.   Sir, if we could just clarify a particular matter with regard to

24     the transport of detainees from Keraterm to Omarska.  The transcript says

25     that the police provided the buses.  Can you clarify what you meant by

Page 16729

 1     that?

 2        A.   The buses were from the Prijedor Transport Company, and according

 3     to the information that I had, members of the public security stations

 4     are -- secured the boarding onto the buses of the people and their

 5     further transportation to Omarska.

 6        Q.   Let's return to my question I asked a few moments ago.

 7             How long did you work at Omarska?

 8        A.   We worked at Omarska from May until early August.

 9        Q.   While you were at Omarska camp, did Mr. Bera contact you?

10        A.   He contact [as interpreted] me once over the phone.  And once he

11     came to Omarska in person and stayed there for a short period of time.

12        Q.   You mentioned a telephone.  Where was the telephone at Omarska?

13        A.   The telephone was in the office of the director of the Omarska

14     mine.  We used this office to analyse Official Notes and other documents.

15        Q.   Was this telephone a direct line, outside of the camp?

16        A.   Yes.  That was the manager's office.  He had a direct line, and

17     he had an extension line as well.

18        Q.   Can you tell us approximately when this telephone call was that

19     you received from Mr. Bera?

20        A.   That was at the beginning of our work.  I remember that I briefly

21     informed him about how we commenced our work, that we have selected a

22     number of people, and that we were preparing criminal reports.  He only

23     said, carry on with the work.  And this is how our conversation ended.

24        Q.   You also mentioned that Mr. Bera visited you once at Omarska

25     camp.  Can you tell us approximately when that visit was?

Page 16730

 1        A.   That was sometime later, maybe a month after the work started at

 2     Omarska.

 3        Q.   And what was the purpose of that visit?

 4        A.   On that occasion, I just met him briefly, greeted him, and he

 5     went away without giving me an opportunity to talk to him.  I don't know

 6     why he left in such a haste.  Therefore, there was no chance for me

 7     giving him any detailed information.

 8        Q.   During the period while you were at Omarska, who was the chief of

 9     the Prijedor detachment, the SDB located in Prijedor?

10        A.   Mr. Dusko Jelisic.

11        Q.   Do you have any knowledge about how frequently Mr. Jelisic

12     communicated with Mr. Bera during this time-period?

13        A.   I have no specific information about that because I was working

14     at Omarska every day.  I never went to the official premises in Prijedor.

15     However, I know that the practice was to maintain regular communication,

16     either by phone or in personal contacts, either in Prijedor or in

17     Banja Luka.

18        Q.   Who provided security within Omarska camp?

19        A.   Within the camp compound at Omarska, the security was provided by

20     members of the Public Security Service of Prijedor.  Those were mainly

21     police officers from the Omarska department that were part of the

22     Prijedor SJB.  There were a few of them from Prijedor as well.

23        Q.   And who was the camp commander?

24        A.   The camp commander was Mr. Zeljko Mejakic.  He was actually a

25     commander of the Omarska branch.

Page 16731

 1        Q.   Just to clarify, he was the commander of the Omarska police

 2     station, the branch of the SJB Prijedor?

 3        A.   Yes.  He was the commander of that department in Omarska,

 4     Zeljko Mejakic.  But when the -- investigation centre in Omarska became

 5     operative, he became the head of the security department.

 6        Q.   And could you explain to us, what were Mejakic's duties as camp

 7     commander?

 8        A.   As far as I am familiar with the organisation, his primary duty

 9     was to secure the buildings where the detainees were kept.  That is to

10     say, in addition to that, to provide food for them, in co-operation with

11     proper services; to provide health care, in cooperation with the Prijedor

12     Medical Centre; and to take care of other current issues that might arise

13     in the course of his work.

14        Q.   And other than Mr. Mejakic, who else comprised the Omarska camp

15     leadership?

16        A.   I know that initially, Miroslav Kvocka was his deputy, but he was

17     dismissed from that duty for having taken out three Muslims to his house.

18     Those were, in fact, brothers of his wife.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm -- I'm sorry, do we still need to be in a

20     closed session?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, we're in open.  I'm sorry.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  No problem.

24        Q.   You mentioned Kvocka.  Who else was included within the

25     leadership at the camp.  There were other individuals.  Do you recall

Page 16732

 1     their names?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know them personally because I wasn't privy to the

 3     documents on their appointments, but I heard that Mladjo Radic was the

 4     shift commander at the camp.  Drago Prsac was also there.  And as for the

 5     others, I don't know.  They were police officers.

 6        Q.   These individuals that you mentioned, were they employed by the

 7     SJB Prijedor?

 8        A.   Yes, they were.

 9        Q.   And since Mejakic was camp commander, is that who they reported

10     to?

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Page 16733

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 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             MR. OLMSTED:

12        Q.   All right.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  Please proceed.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Besides the police officers from SJB Prijedor, were there any

16     other civilian police units from outside Prijedor deployed to Omarska

17     during any point in time in the camp's existence?

18        A.   Upon arrival at Omarska, I and my colleagues found there a

19     smaller unit in front of the building.  This unit had come from

20     Banja Luka.  Those were members of the support unit; I think that's what

21     it was called.  And they constituted approximately a squad, as much as I

22     am aware of.

23        Q.   Just a couple of clarifications.

24             You said "support unit."  Would this also be referred to as a

25     special unit?

Page 16734

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's a leading question.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  I just want to clarify.  We have not heard this

 3     term "support unit," and so I'm clarifying what he meant by that.  I

 4     don't think this is going to be in dispute.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

 6             MR. OLMSTED:

 7        Q.   Can you clarify what you meant by "support unit"?

 8        A.   Perhaps I made a mistake because I'm not fully familiar with the

 9     public security organisation.  But judging by the uniforms that they

10     wore, I would say that they were a special unit.

11        Q.   And you said there was a squad.  Could you tell us approximately

12     how many members were in the squad?

13        A.   I'm not sure.  A platoon numbers about 30 people, but there were

14     not as many as that.  I should, rather, think that they were a squad.  I

15     didn't see that many people at the time.

16        Q.   Did they bring ... is there a problem?

17             MR. ALEKSIC:  Your Honours, [Interpretation] Your Honours, the

18     witness said a squad.  And he said that there were ten members.  He

19     didn't say a platoon, which has 30 members, and that's where the

20     difference lies.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  I -- yes.  And I think he was clear that it was

22     less than a platoon, less than 30 members.  I'll just clarify it for the

23     record.

24        Q.   When you mean a squad, would that be approximately ten members?

25        A.   That was according to military establishment.

Page 16735

 1        Q.   And did they bring any vehicles with them?

 2        A.   Yes.  There was an APC which brought them there.

 3        Q.   And that colour was that APC?

 4        A.   Blue.

 5        Q.   And do you know why they were at the camp?  What service were

 6     they providing at the camp.

 7        A.   I don't know precisely what their tasks were, but Zeljko Mejakic

 8     told me at that time that they had arrived and that he had problems with

 9     their behaviour in the sense that people -- when people are brought to

10     the detention centre, they would go to take valuable possessions from

11     these individuals made of gold and other metals and that this was

12     creating problems for him also in terms of the relations between his men

13     and the policemen from Banja Luka.

14             After that, Mijic and I informed Mr. Simo Drljaca in Prijedor the

15     next day, and I believe that after that, they left Omarska.

16        Q.   I want to show you a document.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  We should go into private session though, first.

18                           [Private session]

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Page 16736











11 Page 16736 redacted. Private session.















Page 16737

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have P1560 on the screen, please.  Tab 2.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is one problem

 5     here.  The question put by Mr. Olmsted, I would like to ask for this

 6     sentence to be read out aloud because there's no mention in the text of

 7     CSB being contacted.  I would like the sentence to be read out and not

 8     paraphrased, please.

 9             I'm talking about the previous document.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Olmsted, I don't know if you follow Mr. Krgovic,

11     but for completeness, perhaps the question should be put in that manner,

12     because I confess I had some difficulty following it as well.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  Certainly, Your Honour.  May we -- we should

14     return, then, back to private session.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We need the document back on the screen.

16                           [Private session]

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Page 16738

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  And may we have P1560 on the screen.

 6        Q.   What we have in front of us is an order issued by SJB Prijedor

 7     dated 31 May 1992.  And we can see under item number 1 that this order

 8     establishes a collection centre at the Omarska mine.  I'd like to take a

 9     look -- you had a chance to review this during proofing, and I want to

10     look at number -- item number 9, which I believe is on page 2 of both the

11     English and B/C/S.

12             And if we look at item number 9 it states that the VRS -- it

13     actually says the army:  "... shall, without delay, lay a minefield in

14     accordance with ... mining regulations ..."

15             Sir, do you recall whether the army, in fact, laid a minefield

16     somewhere around Omarska camp?

17        A.   I remember that, upon my arrival in Omarska, Zeljko Mejakic told

18     us that the second ring surrounding the building and the compound itself

19     was under military security detail, but I don't remember having heard him

20     say that there was a minefield there.  But it's possible that one was

21     there.

22        Q.   Other than providing this second-ring security -- well, first of

23     all, let me clarify that.

24             This second-ring security, was that inside or outside the gates,

25     the fences of Omarska, the Omarska facilities?

Page 16739

 1        A.   It was outside of the compound, including the buildings located

 2     there.  It was much wider than this first ring of security, because that

 3     first ring was there for the purpose of securing the buildings and the

 4     compound itself, so the second ring was for the wider area of the Omarska

 5     mine.

 6        Q.   Other than providing this second round of security, did the

 7     military perform any other functions with regard to the actual operation,

 8     daily operation of the camps.  Correction:  Of this particular camp,

 9     Omarska camp.

10        A.   Yes.  Initially, together with us, a team of military officers

11     leaded [as interpreted] by Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic also did

12     operative processing of mainly individuals who were members of the

13     Yugoslav army who had, at certain point left the army and came to the

14     area of Prijedor.  One of the persons I remember that was processed was

15     Sead Cirkin and some other officers who were there in the area of

16     Prijedor and who had before that been active-duty officers of the JNA.

17        Q.   Yes, I'm going to get to that issue next.  But I just want to

18     talk about the security of the camp.  You mentioned that the military was

19     providing this second round of security.  Were they performing any other

20     security functions at Omarska camp during this period, other than second

21     round of security?

22        A.   There were individual cases when people were brought in.  But,

23     again, those people brought in were members of the army, and they were

24     brought in by the military police.

25        Q.   While you were at the camp, were you aware of any instances

Page 16740

 1     where --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Olmsted, if you are going on to something new,

 3     perhaps this is the point where we should take the break.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honour, I just have one question and then

 5     I go on to something absolutely new.

 6        Q.   While you were at the camp, were you aware of any prisoners that

 7     escaped from Omarska?

 8        A.   On one occasion, Zeljko told me there was an attempt at escape.

 9     Now whether there was a successful escape, I don't know about that.

10             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I'm finished with that topic.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Witness, we are about to take our first break for the day.

13     As His Honour Judge Harhoff would have explained to you, the day's

14     sitting is divided into sessions and ordinarily it's a 20-minute break in

15     between each session, but having regard to your health concerns to which

16     we were alerted, we are wondering whether 30 minutes would be more

17     convenient for you, or whether the 20 minutes would be adequate.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can also try 20-minute breaks as

19     well.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  So we would return in 20 minutes.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  While the witness is brought in, are the

25     Defences -- the Defence teams aware of the 17th motion for protective

Page 16741

 1     measures?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  We received it yesterday.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Can you give us response to that?  Or can

 4     you give us expedited response to that?  What are the possibilities?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, if it would be possible tomorrow morning,

 6     Your Honours.  Would that be?

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That would be very good of you.  That will do.

 8     Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             MR. OLMSTED:  May we go into private session?

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

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Page 16745

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  And just for the public record, we were looking at

 4     P1560.  And if we could turn to page 3 of the B/C/S and the English.

 5        Q.   I wanted to focus your attention on item 17, which states:

 6             "The implementation of this order shall be supervised by Police

 7     Chief Dusan Jankovic, in collaboration with the Banja Luka Security

 8     Services Centre and with the support of authorised executive personnel."

 9             Can you clarify for us what position Dusan Jankovic held in

10     May 1992?

11        A.   Dusan Jankovic was deputy chief.  Simo Drljaca's deputy.

12        Q.   And do you recall was he, in fact, the police officer responsible

13     for co-ordinating the implementation of this order which deals with

14     Omarska camp?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And if you know, could you tell us, in what ways Mr. Jankovic

17     collaborated with CSB Banja Luka during this period of the camp's

18     existence?

19        A.   I don't know specifically what his relationship with the CSB in

20     Banja Luka was.  However, there was co-operation between them in that

21     sense.  Our contacts from Omarska were towards Mr. Simo Drljaca, and

22     Mr. Dusan Jankovic never once visited Omarska, nor did we have any

23     contacts with him in the public security station of Prijedor.

24        Q.   Can you tell us, how did the Prijedor municipal government assist

25     with the operation of Omarska camp?

Page 16746

 1        A.   The municipal authorities in Prijedor concerning the functioning

 2     of the camp was in providing food.  And as far as I know the Ljubija

 3     mine, a work organisation from Prijedor, was obliged to provide food for

 4     people remanded in detention centre, as well as for the security

 5     personnel and the operational teams.

 6             In addition to that, the Prijedor Medical Centre provided

 7     assistance and control within their area of competence.  At times, a

 8     doctor and a technician would come to visit the camp, and there was

 9     another in-house technician at Omarska as well.

10        Q.   Do you recall, you mentioned medical staff.  Do you recall that

11     there was a detainee at Omarska who was himself a doctor?

12        A.   I heard of him, but I didn't see that man in person.

13        Q.   Can you provide his name?

14        A.   Dr. Sadikovic.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have 65 ter 401 on the screen.  Tab 9, I'm

16     sorry.

17        Q.   What we have in front of us is a letter from Prijedor Municipal

18     Secretariat for Economy and Public Services to the Prijedor Executive

19     Committee.  And we can see from its contents that it's a request for

20     payment to Autotransport for the use of buses in July 1992 by the army,

21     Crisis Staff, and police.

22             Sir, I think you mentioned Autotransport in response to a

23     previous question.  Did you see these buses arriving at Omarska camp

24     while you were working there?

25        A.   I did see them on a couple of occasions.  That happened if they

Page 16747

 1     arrived between 8.00 and 4.00, while we were on duty, but then in the

 2     afternoon hours I didn't see them.  But I do know that they provided

 3     transportation and services of that kind, for these purposes.

 4        Q.   And who were they transporting?

 5        A.   They were transporting people from Keraterm to Omarska, the

 6     people who had previously been brought in.  Once they brought a number of

 7     people from Prijedor municipality during the day.

 8        Q.   And you mentioned with regard to the movement of detainees from

 9     Keraterm to Omarska, I believe in late May or early June 1992 that this

10     was done under the police supervision.  Was that the case with these

11     other buses that were arriving at Omarska?

12        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.

13        Q.   Yes, I was just referring to an answer you gave previously.  When

14     you -- you yourself moved from Keraterm to Omarska you mentioned that, at

15     that time, the detainees were moved from Keraterm to Omarska by bus and

16     that the police had provided security and escort service for those buses,

17     and I'm referring now to your current testimony where you say you've seen

18     these buses arriving at the camp subsequently, and my question is whether

19     the police were also providing security with regard to those buses as

20     well.

21        A.   Yes, they were.

22        Q.   Other than the buses that would bring detainees to Omarska, how

23     were other detainees, say, new detainees, brought to Omarska?

24        A.   Mainly a special police unit known as Marica was used for these

25     purposes.

Page 16748

 1        Q.   Our translation says "a special police unit."  Are you referring

 2     to a special kind of vehicle that is often called a black Marica?

 3        A.   A vehicle.

 4        Q.   Do you recall any occasions when detainees were brought by the

 5     military to the camp?

 6        A.   Members of the military police once brought a group of

 7     individuals, but those were individuals captured during the scouring of

 8     the terrain in the area of Mount Kozara.  So they were actually military

 9     conscripts.

10             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this document be admitted into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall assigned

14     Exhibit P1677.  Thank you.

15             MR. OLMSTED:

16        Q.   Sir, at the beginning of the camp's existence, did you make any

17     suggestions to the police on how they should carry out the arrests of

18     detainees?

19        A.   Are you referring to the screening of the individuals?

20        Q.   No.  I'm talking about before that.  Obviously the detainees were

21     being brought in these police vehicles to the camp, they were arrested or

22     they were taken into custody.  Did you provide any suggestions to them as

23     to how that should be conducted?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  My position, as well as the position of Mr. Mijic and

25     Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic, was that an individual taken to a remand

Page 16749

 1     centre must be accompanied with proper documents showing the reasons for

 2     detention and/or custody.  Initially this procedure was observed and

 3     followed, and a number of individuals were brought in along with Official

 4     Notes and other papers.  However, at a later stage, people were brought

 5     in without any accompanying documentation.  We reacted to that.  However,

 6     our view was not taken into account at that point.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have on the screen 65 ter 2234.  I

 8     apologise, tab 1.

 9             And if we can enlarge it maybe a little bit more.  That's good.

10     Oh, no, too much.  Go back to where it was before.  That's good.  And I

11     would like the witness to mark this with a pen.

12        Q.   And while she is setting you up with a pen, sir, do you recognise

13     what's depicted in this photograph?  I know it's probably not from 1992,

14     but do you recognise it?

15        A.   These are administration buildings of the Omarska mine.

16        Q.   Now I know it's been some time, but could you indicate with an X

17     where the interrogations of detainees took place.

18        A.   Should be here.

19        Q.   And I see you have made an X next to a two-storey building.  Can

20     you tell us on what floor were the interrogations held?

21        A.   For the most part, we used the entire floor in that building.

22     Although there were a couple of inspectors working on the ground floor

23     where there were offices as well.

24        Q.   And if I understand from your answer, most of the interrogations

25     were conducted on the first floor.

Page 16750

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And can you tell us approximately how many interrogation rooms

 3     there were on the first floor?

 4        A.   Well, I didn't count them, but in view of the number of the

 5     teams, and since there was one or two teams working on the ground floor,

 6     I would say that there were about eight offices.

 7        Q.   We see in this photograph a small one-storey white house that is

 8     near the big warehouse.  Can you tell us what category of detainees were

 9     kept in that house?

10        A.   I think those were the first category individuals.

11        Q.   And who would assign detainees to the various detention -- or

12     various detention rooms at the Omarska complex?

13        A.   This was done by the security service, headed by Zeljko Mejakic.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be tendered into evidence.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this document shall be assigned

17     Exhibit P1678.  Thank you.

18             MR. OLMSTED:

19        Q.   Sir, can you tell us who would bring the detainees to the

20     interview rooms for their interrogation.

21        A.   The detainees were brought by members of the Public Security

22     Service of Prijedor.

23        Q.   Can you explain to us how detainees were selected for

24     interrogation on a given day?

25        A.   At the beginning, since there were a large number of people in

Page 16751

 1     the remand centre, we started by bringing people according to their place

 2     of residence; for example, we started with the people from Gornja

 3     Puharska neighbourhood, then we went on to Donja Puharska,

 4     Cernerici [phoen], Hambarine, Kozarac and so on and so forth.

 5        Q.   And you mentioned that was the initial way of selection of

 6     detainees for interrogation.  Subsequently, how did that process change?

 7        A.   Later the process went approximately as follows.  During the

 8     initial phase, we found a group for whom there were no information of

 9     security interests and we categorised them in group 3.  So our proposal

10     was for such people who were of no interest for security to be released.

11             There's another group, or two groups of whom there were -- was

12     information of security interest and they were categorised as group 2 and

13     Group 1.  Subsequently, we asked Zeljko Mejakic to single out people by

14     their name to be brought to our offices for interrogation.

15        Q.   In total, can you tell us approximately how many detainees the

16     teams interrogated at Omarska?

17        A.   Around 3.000 or 3.100, and I'm talking about the entire period.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted, just one moment, please.

19             Mr. Witness, what would be the difference between category 1 and

20     2 you mentioned?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The difference between category 1

22     and 2 was due to the fact because members of category 1 were, so to

23     speak, ring leaders of hostile activities and group 2 supported such

24     activities.  They were not directly involved in these activities or they

25     only served as liaisons for the category 1.

Page 16752

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So when you said that in the so-called

 2     white house, people of the first category were detained, that's what you

 3     meant by first category, when you said that?  The leading people of --

 4     yeah.  Thank you very much.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:

 7        Q.   Just a follow-up question on the first category detainees.  Would

 8     this category also consider those who were considered non-Serb

 9     extremists?

10        A.   Roughly speaking, yes.

11        Q.   Sir, were this instances where members of the interrogation

12     teams, or some members of the interrogation teams, used physical force to

13     obtain information from detainees during their interrogations?

14        A.   Yes, there were cases of that nature.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  May we go into private session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16753

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 16754

 1             MR. OLMSTED:

 2        Q.   Sir, after each interrogations, did the teams write some kind of

 3     document, some kind of Official Note, concerning about what they learned

 4     from a particular detainee?

 5        A.   Yes.  After each interview, the inspector in question had an

 6     obligation to compile an Official Note, to hand it over to us for

 7     reading, and, after that, if it contained information of interest for

 8     security or references to certain individuals, we would ask these

 9     Official Notes to be typed at the typing pool.  After that, statements

10     were taken from such individuals based on the information contained in

11     the Official Note and, eventually, this would be followed by a criminal

12     report.

13        Q.   Can you tell us where these Official Notes were kept?

14        A.   The notes were kept in the office where we worked, i.e., the

15     office of the manager of the mine.  And we would lock it after we would

16     leave the mine or the remand centre.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may we go into private session.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16755











11 Pages 16755-16759 redacted. Private session.















Page 16760

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

16             MR. OLMSTED:

17        Q.   I now want to talk about the first- and second-category

18     detainees.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have 65 ter 493, which is tab 15, on the

20     screen, please.

21        Q.   What we have in front of us is a list of first-category persons

22     dated 28 July 1992.  And we see at the top it's from Omarska SC, or

23     collection centre.

24             And if we could turn to the last page of the document, we see

25     that in the B/C/S version there's 176 entries, while in the English

Page 16761

 1     there's 174.  I did my own research into this, and it appears that the

 2     B/C/S version, it skips entries 147, 148, and that accounts for the

 3     discrepancy in the number.

 4             Sir can you explain to us why was this list of first-category

 5     detainees created at the end of July?

 6        A.   I remember that, on one occasion, Mr. Simo Drljaca phoned us and

 7     asked for lists of first- and second-category individuals should be

 8     compiled because both of these groups would be transferred to Manjaca,

 9     and I think this list was compiled for that purpose.

10        Q.   And you mentioned that there was a list for second-category

11     detainees.  So that would have been a separate list?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.  We did separate lists for first, second, and

13     third category.  One would expect to have three separate categories.

14        Q.   And you mentioned that the first- and second-category individuals

15     were to go Manjaca.  Where were the third-category detainees to go to?

16        A.   Third-category detainees, we were ordered to have a list made and

17     then for them to be transferred to Trnopolje.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is document shall be assigned

21     Exhibit P1681.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted, just one moment, please.

23             Mr. Witness, you remember telling us that detainees of category 1

24     were held in the white building on the photo, the so-called white house?

25     You remember telling us that?

Page 16762

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So here is a list of 174 people.  Does that mean

 3     that those 174 people were held in that white house?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, no.  The so-called white

 5     house is a very small building.  One couldn't fit in -- well, I didn't go

 6     there, but I don't think it could hold more than 20 persons.  Only some

 7     were in the white house.  The remaining ones were in facilities that were

 8     under the building -- or, rather, on the ground floor of the building

 9     where we worked.  We worked on the first floor, and they were on the

10     ground floor.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So I hear you say that you never went to that

12     white house?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And you say that the other category 1 detainees

15     were held on the ground floor of the building where you were -- where you

16     were working and investigating; right?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And where were the category 2 and category 3

19     detainees held?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, some of them were there in

21     the same building under us, and the remainder were on the first floor.

22     We've seen those hangars in the photo.

23             So part of this building was used as a garage for trucks, dumper

24     trucks, and then there were also spaces there that was -- that had been

25     used before by the workers there, and these detainees were housed there.

Page 16763

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that's the very big red building; am I right?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And if I understand you well, there were

 4     detainees held in the building you were working in.  Is that the building

 5     where the cafeteria was, where the restaurant was, at the ground floor?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So there were detainees held in that building,

 8     sleeping in that building, and not held in the big one.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could I follow up on the questions just put to

14     you by His Honour Judge Delvoie; namely, if you can tell us whether the

15     detainees from category 1 and 2 who apparently should be transferred to

16     Manjaca, whether all of the -- these category 1 and 2 detainees were, in

17     fact, transferred to Manjaca.

18             Do you know?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to what I knew, they were

20     transferred to Manjaca.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honour, I see the time.  Perhaps we should

24     take the break now.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

Page 16764

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is on his way in, we have decided

 5     that we will divide the -- this session into two parts and take a

 6     ten-minute break in between because obviously the witness is himself

 7     reluctant to interfere with the rhythm, but it is obvious to us that he

 8     is having challenges, so we have taken it on ourselves to split the

 9     session in that way.

10             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I think maybe we

11     should check at that stage whether he needs to finish for the day because

12     I understand that he was actually in a lot of pain during this session,

13     and I don't think we're under a terrible time pressure this week.  One of

14     the witnesses, I think, there was supposed to be a subpoena for but

15     that's not -- hasn't been issued, so we can't bring that witness this

16     week so we just have, I understand, one more witness after this one.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we just clarify -- sorry, can we just clarify

20     which ones do we have for this week only?

21             MR. OLMSTED:  The witness after this will be ST-241.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  So ST-252 is not coming this week?

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes.  That is the subpoena witness.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, before Mr. Olmsted continues, we just

Page 16765

 1     wanted to alert that you it's 12.35 now.  We're going to take a break at

 2     about 1.10, and if you're able to go on after a ten-minute gap, we would

 3     continue until 1.45.  But if we have to rise for the day at 1.10, so be

 4     it, in order to accommodate your difficulties.

 5             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 6             I should add, that we are appreciative of your willingness to

 7     push on, but, of course, we are ourselves mindful of your health, and we

 8     don't wish to cause you any undue inconvenience.  So we will proceed in

 9     that manner.

10             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             May we go into private session.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16766











11 Pages 16766-16768 redacted. Private session.















Page 16769

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:

 6        Q.   One more question with regard to this topic.

 7             While at Omarska, did you hear of other occasions in which groups

 8     of detainees labelled as extremists were killed by the guards during the

 9     night?

10        A.   Well, I think there were isolated incidents.

11        Q.   Now, you've already testified with regard to what was to happen

12     to first- and secondary -- or second-category detainees, that they were

13     to be subjected to criminal proceedings; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  That was our position at the remand centre.

15        Q.   Based upon your work at Omarska, how many criminal reports did

16     the teams draft during this period?

17        A.   We started that way, and we had prepared three criminal reports

18     to be filed and processed.  One of them referred to illegal arming of

19     individuals and groups; the second one referred to individuals accused of

20     the crime of armed rebellion; and the third one, I think, involved one

21     individual who was detained at the centre.

22        Q.   Can you tell us how many Omarska detainees were included in these

23     reports?  How many persons were actually held at Omarska?

24        A.   Well, approximately between 20 and 30 people were subject to --

25     of these criminal reports that I mentioned.

Page 16770

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just for the -- for the sake of -- of -- of the

 2     transcript, 55, 23, the witness answer, it was recorded as:

 3             "Yes that was our position at the remand centre."

 4             And I believe the witness said "investigation centre."

 5             Maybe you can clarify that with him, please.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, I think we can clarify that.

 7        Q.   When you said it was your position at the remand centre, you're

 8     referring to the Omarska investigation centre at the Omarska camp; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And just to clarify your last answer, you said between 20 and 30

12     people.  You're referring to 20 or 30 detainees, people who were held at

13     Omarska; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have on the screen, 65 ter -- oh, before I

16     ask -- before I bring that up on the screen -- or we can bring that up on

17     the screen anyway.  It's 65 ter 514.  It's tab 25.

18        Q.   But I do have one further question with regard to this last

19     topic.  Do you know what happened to those three criminal reports?  Do

20     you know whether they were ever submitted to the prosecutor?

21        A.   As far as I know, no proceedings were continued thereafter.  We

22     proposed that criminal proceedings be instituted against these

23     individuals but that did not materialise, as far as I know.

24        Q.   You've already testified that first- and second-category

25     detainees were transported to Manjaca camp en masse.  Can you tell us

Page 16771

 1     when this occurred?  Did it occur in July or August?

 2        A.   Well, sometime towards the end of July or beginning of August is

 3     when they were transferred.

 4        Q.   What we have in front of us is a letter from the bishop of

 5     Banja Luka to SJB Prijedor Chief Drljaca, and it's dated the 6th of

 6     August, 1992.  You had a chance to look at this letter during proofing,

 7     and the letter is with regard to the detention of a Catholic priest by

 8     the name of Stipo Sosic at Omarska camp.  Do you recall whether Father

 9     Sosic was detained at Omarska?

10        A.   I know that Father Sosic was a priest in Ljubija parish in

11     Prijedor municipality, but I cannot confirm that he was in Omarska

12     because I personally don't know that.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's take a look at 65 ter 551, which is tab 33.

14             This is a letter from SJB Prijedor to the bishop's ordinate dated

15     16 September 1992.

16        Q.   First of all, do you recognise the signature on this document?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  That's the signature of Mr. Simo Drljaca.

18        Q.   Now, according to this letter, Mr. Drljaca reports that there was

19     reasonable suspicion that Father Sosic took part in the organisation of

20     armed rebellion against the RS and Serbian People.

21             I take it from your last answer that Father Sosic was never

22     interrogated by any of your team members at Omarska?

23        A.   I really cannot remember at this moment that he was at the camp,

24     but this document says that he was.  It is possible that he had been

25     brought in, but it wasn't us who requested this individual to be brought

Page 16772

 1     in.

 2        Q.   And if you had interrogated him, or you or your team members had

 3     interrogated him and assigned him to first or second category, you

 4     would -- you would remember that; is that correct?

 5        A.   Well, probably I would, given that we are talking about a priest

 6     here.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender both of these

 8     exhibits, 65 ter 514 and 551 into evidence.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this.

10     First of all, the witness knows nothing about this document and this

11     incident.  The OTP is repeating for a third time the proofing of the

12     witness and the evidence shown to him.  We haven't received any notes of

13     those proofing sessions, and we had no idea that the Prosecutor was going

14     to ask it's witness about this issue.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  We do not object.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic you were rising.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I was -- I was too fast.

18             The Stanisic Defence does not object to -- to admittance of these

19     two documents.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours -- sorry.

21             JUDGE HALL:  What -- what would these two documents serve to

22     establish, Mr. Olmsted?

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours.  Well, we have other evidence

24     that Father Sosic was at the Omarska camp and so we're not necessarily

25     introducing it for that fact, but we do think it's relevant that a person

Page 16773

 1     here who had certain responsibilities with regard to interrogations of

 2     witnesses has no recollection of this well known figure, let's say, or he

 3     knew who this person was in the community.  He has no recollection of him

 4     being interrogated or assigned to a particular category, and so it shows

 5     that detainees who were not within the first or second category were

 6     actually sent to Manjaca camp.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I'm sorry, I don't follow that Mr. Olmsted.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, let me explain again.  It's really what is

 9     absent, not what is there.  This witness does not recall this particular

10     person ever being interrogated, ever assigned to the first or second

11     category --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted, do you -- do you think that this

13     witness, not knowing that this person was ever interrogated, do you

14     suppose that this witness knows of all people that have been interrogated

15     by the ten teams, if I understood it right?  There were ten teams

16     investigating and this witness, not knowing that this person was ever

17     interrogated, would that mean that he was not interrogated by another

18     team eventually?

19             Do I misunderstand?

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, perhaps we should go to private

21     session.  I don't want to identify this witness.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16774











11 Pages 16774-16778 redacted. Private session.















Page 16779

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  I'd have to confirm this, but I believe the witness

25     that follows this one is in proofing today.  I can check by tomorrow

Page 16780

 1     morning whether they would be available -- he would be available to

 2     testify as of tomorrow.

 3             Is Your Honours thinking about mixing up the schedule a little

 4     bit at all?

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  If the next witness would have been ready

 6     now, we might as well have taken him and spent this remaining half-hour.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Oh, I see.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But if he is not available, then we will keep him

 9     until tomorrow and Thursday.

10             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes.  Unfortunately, I don't believe he is ready

11     yet.

12             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise until 9.00 tomorrow morning.

13                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.16 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of

15                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.