101108ED

Page 17008

1 Monday, 8 November 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

6 everyone in and around the courtroom.

7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

8 Stojan Zupljanin.

9 Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.

12 MR. DOBBYN: Good morning, Your Honours. From the office of the

13 Prosecutor, Gerard Dobbyn with senior trial attorney Joanna Korner,

14 Crispian Smith, and today we have the assistance of one of our interns,

15 Catherine Loftus.

16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

17 behalf of Mr. Mico Stanisic's [Realtime transcript read in error "Stojan

18 Zupljanin"] Defence team, Slobodan Cvijetic and Eugene O'Sullivan.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and

20 Aleksandar Aleksic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

22 Yes, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, if I may, can I raise the question or

24 come back to the question --

25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, just

Page 17009

1 one thing for the record. It's Monday, so we are not starting as we

2 should. It should say that we are the Defence for Mico Stanisic, not

3 Stojan Zupljanin as the record indicates.

4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's passed me by completely, but

6 anyhow can I go back to where I was.

7 Your Honours, Your Honours raised the question of timings last

8 Friday, and said you would be returning to it this morning.

9 Your Honours, we've, with a great deal of difficulty, attempted to work

10 out where we are on timings and the various additions that had been given

11 us. The total provided by the Registry on Friday was that the

12 Prosecution team had spent a total of 253 hours, 14 minutes in

13 examination-in-chief, and we think that is probably right, give or take a

14 few minutes here or there.

15 Your Honours, the original hours you gave us was 212, when we had

16 asked for 292 for the original witnesses. The Registry's

17 examination-in-chief total includes, of course, some of the new witnesses

18 which have been added for which we were given extra time, and for the

19 life of us, with -- and we did have Ms. Loftus attempting to do her best

20 to work out how this was all fitting, and we can't do it, it's just too

21 complicated, as far as we're concerned, unless you've managed to do it,

22 which I'm sure you have, particularly Judge Delvoie, but Your Honours,

23 can I make this point: Of the original witnesses who are left, there are

24 only three of them; that is to say, ST-004, ST-190, and Mr. Brown, who I

25 think is ST-097.

Page 17010

1 So had it not been for the various to-ings and fro-ings and

2 dropping and adding of witnesses, we would have come in certainly to

3 finish this week. But Your Honours, what I want to say is this: We will

4 come in within that original total that we added up, and which we knew

5 our case at the time we gave it, or thought we knew our case until the

6 question of the adjudicated facts came up. And we gave a pretty

7 realistic estimate of what it would take.

8 Your Honours, we would say this: That the -- that the -- that

9 the 212 you gave us was before the case started, when nobody knew really

10 what the issues were, as we've raised a number of times, the Defence's

11 pre-trial brief didn't exactly assist very much. Nobody knew how

12 difficult some of the witnesses were going to be, in particular, the --

13 the difficulty in getting them to answer questions. And, accordingly,

14 without going into further nuts and bolts about how many hours we

15 actually have left and what comes from the new witnesses and what

16 doesn't, we would simply ask that Your Honours allow us to complete the

17 evidence that we have got left within the hours we've asked for for each

18 of those witnesses.

19 Your Honour, we -- we -- we sincerely believe that you wouldn't

20 wish to cut off what is clearly relevant evidence in this case because we

21 have actually run over the hours.

22 Your Honour, the second matter is this: The witness that

23 Mr. Dobbyn is about to call, Your Honours announced although we asked for

24 two hours, or two and a bit hours, I think, that we were limited to an

25 hour, and I think it's best if Mr. Dobbyn explains to you why it is going

Page 17011

1 to be very difficult to get him through in one hour.

2 Your Honours, those are the submissions we make which effectively

3 can be summed up this way: We simply ask for sufficient time to complete

4 the evidence that we have applied for.

5 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, it seems that, as far as the number

7 of witnesses you have left, the three that you mention do not include

8 today's and tomorrow's witnesses, does it?

9 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: So that is altogether five witnesses that you

11 think you have left.

12 MS. KORNER: Of the very original list, sir, the 65 ter list,

13 three.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But then other witnesses have been added in the

15 course of the trial --

16 MS. KORNER: Other witnesses have been added and you have given

17 us more time for those witnesses. That's why I say it became incredibly

18 complicated trying to work out the time.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: But as of this moment at least five witnesses

20 remain to be heard.

21 MS. KORNER: No, many more, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Not including the adjudicated fact witnesses.

23 MS. KORNER: I think it may be more. I'd have to go back and

24 have another check. There are these two witnesses this week.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And then three more.

Page 17012

1 MS KORNER: And three more from the original list.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: So that is at least five and we think that there

3 are a couple of more witnesses on top of that.

4 MS. KORNER: Yep.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: In any case, today's witness, 221, I think was

6 given half an hour. He is 92 ter and we allowed an extra 10 minutes to

7 show the video to him, as was claimed, so for this witness today there is

8 30 minutes for the Prosecution's examination-in-chief.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, as I say, it's the one following

10 that's -- that may be the problem. Who may start today in any event. He

11 is here. The only matter that concerns him is the Defence have asked to

12 speak to him this morning, as a result of the something he told the

13 Prosecution during the course of the proofing session. And that's the

14 only thing that may cause a delay.

15 Your Honour, the only reason I'm raising all this is because it

16 was raised by Your Honours on Friday. But, as I say, all we can do is

17 say that we would like sufficient time to call the witnesses already

18 granted, plus, if Your Honours are minded to grant it, the extra two that

19 we asked for last week.

20 And I think there may be some -- actually, I'm not sure

21 Your Honours have rendered a decision on some of the other witnesses.

22 Can I add one final thing. There is actually no question in our

23 mind that, bar the witness Mr. Brown, and potentially the other two

24 witnesses we've applied for, we will be finishing our case in very early

25 December. We -- we -- we worked that one out; subject, of course, to the

Page 17013

1 Defence not changing their estimates on cross-examination.

2 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, did Mr. Dobbyn wish to be heard now on this

3 question of the time for the following witness? Or he would reserve that

4 until the witness is about to be called?

5 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, I'm happy to address that now. It may

6 be easier so that both Prosecution and Defence know what will be

7 happening for the following witness.

8 And Your Honours, that witness, when we sought to add him along

9 with the witness who is about to come in, we had sought that -- well, we

10 had indicated when seeking to add him to the 65 ter list that we would be

11 looking to call him 92 ter with an additional one hour of direct.

12 However, upon speaking to the witness, we realize that it

13 wouldn't be suitable to call him 92 ter, just simply wasn't feasible

14 under the circumstances. Now this witness speaks about -- the reason it

15 wouldn't have been feasible, Your Honours, was that he was not happy with

16 the statement he given to the Office of the Prosecutor. He claimed there

17 were many inaccuracies in there, so under those circumstances we felt we

18 couldn't put that statement and just have him speak to additional matters

19 beyond that for that one hour.

20 So we're in the position now where we can't use the statement

21 that he given us. He will be giving evidence on four detention

22 facilities in Zvornik, and he is in unique position to give very relevant

23 and useful information about those detention facilities. On top of that,

24 there are several documents, also a video which will be shown to him. He

25 is also a witness who is in a position to clear up some confusion that I

Page 17014

1 understand was remaining from the site visit as to the physical location

2 and appearances of some of these detention facilities. So under these

3 circumstances, particularly looking at four different detention

4 facilities, an hour viva voce simply -- I don't see how it would be

5 possible to get through that evidence in that time, which is why we

6 indicated we were hoping to have two and a half hours with him. Two

7 hours may be possible with this witness to get him through that evidence.

8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

9 Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just to clarify with the OTP, will

11 the witness remain 92 ter or is he going to be viva voce? I didn't

12 understand, are they just asking for additional time, to which have I no

13 objection. I just want to clarify the status of the witness.

14 I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm talking about the next witness, not

15 today's witness.

16 MR. DOBBYN: I'm talking about ST-222, and that's the one that

17 we'll be seeking to call viva voce.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] tomorrow?

19 MR. DOBBYN: And Your Honours, he is currently listed for

20 tomorrow but the indications are that the witness we have coming in next

21 will be finished before the end of the day so he may actually be in a

22 position to be starting today.

23 JUDGE HALL: Provided, if I understand you correctly, the Defence

24 is through with their speaking with him.

25 MR. DOBBYN: Yes. And the communications I've had is that they

Page 17018

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 WITNESS: ST-221

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

11 Q. Good morning, sir.

12 A. Morning.

13 Q. Now, sir, did you provide a statement to the Office of the

14 Prosecutor on the 17th and 18th of May, 2003?

15 A. Yes. I provided a statement on the 17th and 18th of March [as

16 interpreted].

17 Q. Was this statement read back to you in your own language, and did

18 you then sign it as being true and correct?

19 A. Yes, I signed the statement. The interpreter who was in Berlin

20 had read it to me. She was there together with a lady from the OTP.

21 Q. Sir, do you recall meeting with me and with an investigator from

22 the OTP on the 6th of October, 2010, just over a month ago?

23 A. I remember that you were in Berlin on the 6th of October. I had

24 a meeting with you, with an investigator, and with an interpreter.

25 Q. On that occasion, sir, did you review your statement and did you

Page 17019

1 make some corrections to that statement in the form of a declaration?

2 A. Yes. I reviewed the statement. I did have a few objections. We

3 made some corrections, and we drafted a declaration to that effect.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. And are you satisfied that the content of your

5 statement, with the corrections contained in the declaration, is accurate

6 and correct?

7 A. I made all the corrections, and I believe that now my statement

8 is fully accurate. Everything in it is correct.

9 Q. So, sir, is the information contained in your statement and the

10 declaration the same as you would give if testifying in full today?

11 A. I would provide the same information.

12 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, the statement and the declaration have

13 the 65 ter numbers 9119 and 10576 and I'll seek to tender those, I

14 believe, at the end of this witness's testimony.

15 Now, at this point, Your Honours, I'd like to read a brief

16 summary of his evidence. Because of his particular position it's

17 difficult to do so in much detail without giving away his identity. What

18 I propose to do, if Your Honours would like, is that we go into private

19 session and I read a short summary for Your Honours' benefit and then a

20 much shorter summary again for the public's benefit.

21 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17020

11 Page 17020 redacted. Private session.

Page 17021

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

7 MR. DOBBYN: In his 92 ter statement, ST-221 describes events in

8 Zvornik in 1992. Throughout the indictment period until August 1992

9 ST-221 lived and worked in Zvornik. Up until leaving Zvornik in August

10 1992, ST-221 became aware of the existence of a number of detention

11 facilities in Zvornik where non-Serbs were held and he also gained some

12 knowledge of the numbers of non-Serbs dead in Zvornik and its surrounds.

13 ST-221 has knowledge of an occasion in June 1992 when Muslims

14 were driven to Gero slaughter-house where they were taken inside and

15 executed by paramilitaries. The witness also has specific knowledge

16 concerning the killing of a large number of Muslims at Drinjaca school on

17 or about 30 May, 1992.

18 And that concludes the summary, Your Honours. I now have some

19 questions to expand and clarify some issues contained in there.

20 First of all, if we could show 65 ter 10236.16. Thank you.

21 Q. Now, if we could perhaps just scroll up to the top to start with.

22 And, sir, what you'll see on the screen in front of you is a map

23 showing the ethnic composition and distribution of Zvornik municipality

24 in 1991. You'll see that Serbs are denoted by blue; Croats by red; and

25 Muslims by green. In the numbers in the table at the top, it shows that

Page 17022

1 in 1991 approximately 60 per cent of the position of Zvornik was Muslim;

2 approximately 35 per cent was Serb; and the remainder was split between

3 Croats, others, and those who described themselves as Yugoslavs.

4 Sir, from your knowledge of living in Zvornik in 1991, are those

5 figures correct?

6 A. The figures are correct. There may have been a few more Muslims,

7 but the 60 per cent or 68 per cent of Muslims resided in the territory of

8 Zvornik. The rest were Serbs and others.

9 Q. Thank you. Now if we could scroll down to show the map itself.

10 And, sir, on the map, you'll see that settlements are shown.

11 Those in green are those that had a majority Muslim population; those in

12 blue those with the majority Serb population. And, again, from your

13 personal knowledge, does that distribution seem accurate for 1991?

14 A. Zvornik is marked with green. There is Celopek next to it.

15 Trsic, Dabanci, and all the way to Kozluk the villages were mostly Serbs.

16 You can see that all of those villages are blue. I used to travel that

17 route quite often, and Bileca, as you see it, everything that you see in

18 the map reflects the situation as it was at the time in the territory of

19 the municipality of Zvornik.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I seek to tender this map at this

22 moment.

23 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01691. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 MR. DOBBYN:

Page 17023

1 Q. Now, Witness, in paragraph 10 of your statement, you describe the

2 start of the war in Zvornik in early April and then shelling and an

3 attack on Kula Grad. And when you say that Kula Grad was being shelled

4 and was then attacked, which side or which group was this that was doing

5 the shelling and then launched this attack?

6 A. When we fled to Kula Grad, shelling started in the evening, and

7 the shelling was carried out by the tank unit from the town of Zvornik

8 below us. There were tanks deployed there and from there Kula Grad was

9 shelled.

10 During the night, they did not launch proper shells, only in the

11 morning at 5.00 the shelling started with live shells. People started

12 dying and then people started fleeing towards Tuzla. I was among them,

13 together with my wife.

14 Q. And, sire, when you say that there were tanks performing the

15 shelling and they launched the attack, again, just to be precise, which

16 group was this, which -- which organ or ethnic group?

17 A. They were Serbs, and the tanks belonged to the JNA. At that time

18 the VRS did not exist. They were billeted in Celopek. The commander of

19 that unit was Jovanovic. I don't know his first name. He was the

20 commander of that tank unit. In other words, the attack was launched by

21 the JNA and by the Serbs. They attacked those people up there in

22 Kula Grad.

23 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you also describe bodies of 100 to

24 120 people that you assumed were interrogated and killed by

25 paramilitaries in the Alhos factory in Karakaj and were then buried in

Page 17024

1 the Kazanbasca cemetery.

2 Now, at this time, which you put at late April, was there any

3 police presence in or around Alhos factory and the industrial area?

4 A. There were police there, but whatever was done was done by

5 paramilitaries, and those paramilitaries had come from Serbia. They

6 called themselves Zuca, Pivarski, Crni, Niski. The proper police only

7 issued passes and they were not involved in anything else. Nobody asked

8 them anything.

9 Q. Now these 100 to 120 people that were killed, what ethnicity were

10 the victims; do you know?

11 A. They were Muslims, all of them.

12 Q. Did you see how they were dressed? If so, did you see if they

13 were in uniforms or in civilian clothing?

14 A. The Muslims who were killed all wore civilian clothes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, for the next series of questions,

17 could we go into private session, please.

18 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17025

11 Page 17025 redacted. Private session.

Page 17026

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20 MR. DOBBYN:

21 Q. Sir, at paragraph 43 of your statement, you say that you had a

22 friend who was detained at Ekonomija farm and was never seen again. Do

23 you remember your friend's name?

24 A. His name was Mensur Salihovic, also known as Meco [phoen].

25 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, did you ever hear of any building referred

Page 17030

1 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01695, Your Honours.

3 MR. DOBBYN: Now, next, I would like to call up 65 ter 2826.

4 Could we please just go to page 3 in the English and page 2 in

5 the B/C/S.

6 Q. And, sir, if you look at the document in front of you, you'll see

7 that it's -- purports to be a list of prisoners. Now at numbers 4 to 22,

8 and also number 24, there are a number of people listed who are

9 apparently from the town of Divic. Now, you've looked at this document

10 before, and did you know any of these people?

11 A. I knew most of them. I know most of these people.

12 Q. Do you know if they were detained in 1992, and, if so, at which

13 detention facility?

14 A. Most of the people who were imprisoned were from Divic and they

15 were mainly held at the cultural centre in Celopek. I saw them there. I

16 saw them until Repic committed his crime and killed them. And then they

17 closed down Celopek and they moved up to the building of Novi Izvor.

18 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to have this document marked

19 for identification at this time.

20 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 2826 shall be marked for

22 identification as P01696. Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, you asked for it to be marked. This is

24 pending what?

25 MR. DOBBYN: The following witness will speak about this and I

Page 17031

1 think he is in a better position to have it tendered through him.

2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Dobbyn, I didn't catch the provenance of the

4 documents when you showed page 1. Could you just tell us what this is?

5 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, this is a -- a list of -- actually,

6 three separate lists of prisoners, and it was obtained, it was handed to

7 the Office of the Prosecutor by a witness, a member of the RS MUP who has

8 actually already testified in this case but it seems this particular

9 document wasn't shown through that witness. A member of the, as I say,

10 the RS MUP who had the three lists handed to him by the police in

11 Zvornik.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. From what I was just able to pick up

13 when we had a very brief look at page 1 was that it's a letter to

14 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic from who, exactly? And what was the date?

15 MR. DOBBYN: Now, Your Honours, as far as the initial -- this

16 cover page, this letter, that's something that I'm not sure that we know

17 exactly who it comes from. Again, this letter was part of the list of

18 prisoners. They were all handed over together to the OTP by this other

19 witness who was member of the MUP, but as to who actually drafted this

20 letter or where it originated from, I can't say at this time.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

22 MR. DOBBYN:

23 Q. Now, the last thing I'd like to do, sir, is to have you look at a

24 video, and this is P908.

25 And I'd like to start this video at 19 minutes and 37 seconds.

Page 17032

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MR. DOBBYN: And if we could play until 19 minutes and 43

3 seconds.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 MR. DOBBYN: Stop there.

6 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise anybody that you see on the screen at

7 the moment?

8 A. His last name is Srabovic. I don't know his first name, I'd

9 forgotten it. I know the man very well but I have forgotten his first

10 name. I know his last name was Srabovic, he was born in Tuzla and he

11 lived and worked in Zvornika Glinica, down there.

12 Q. And which individual are you referring to? Could you describe an

13 item of clothing he is wearing?

14 A. He is in civilian clothing. He is the one that's wearing

15 civilian clothing, and he's facing us.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you know -- well, first of all, what was his

17 ethnicity?

18 A. He was a Muslim. These were all Muslims who were fleeing Zvornik

19 and were trying to get to Serbia across the bridge.

20 Q. Do you know if he has ever returned to Zvornik?

21 A. I don't think he returned to Zvornik, because his wife worked

22 together with me at the company and I think they're somewhere up north in

23 Denmark or Sweden. I have not seen him since the war.

24 Q. Now, if we could continue playing and stop next at 19 minutes and

25 52 seconds.

Page 17033

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MR. DOBBYN:

3 Q. And, sir, do you recognise anybody on the screen now?

4 A. I recognise the man. His last name was Taljic, and I have

5 forgotten his first name. He worked at Glinica; he was a lawyer. It's

6 the same case as Srabovic; he was trying to get to Serbia and save his

7 life. They were being searched. Some people lost their money or gold.

8 These were all Muslims who were trying to flee to Serbia for their lives.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. DOBBYN: If we could keep on playing now. And next stop will

11 be at 20 minutes and 45 seconds.

12 [Video-clip played]

13 MR. DOBBYN: [Microphone not activated] sorry, if you could keep

14 on playing. Stop there, please. This is at 20 minutes and 55 seconds on

15 the video.

16 Q. Sir, do you recognise the man who was being led out of the

17 building by the uniformed individual?

18 A. I recognise him. He was a municipal judge, Muhamed Zaimovic, and

19 in the image he is in civilian clothing. I have no idea who the man

20 wearing the uniform is.

21 Q. Do you know if Muhamed Zaimovic --

22 A. Muhamed Zaimovic.

23 Q. Yes, and has he ever returned to Zvornik, as far as you're aware?

24 A. No, I have never seen Muhamed Zaimovic again.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 17034

1 MR. DOBBYN: And if we could continue playing, and the next stop

2 will be at 21 minutes and 30 seconds.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 MR. DOBBYN: This at 21 minutes and 41 seconds.

5 Q. Sir, do you recognise any of those individuals carrying the

6 bodies?

7 A. I know these people. One was the leader of the team who was

8 collecting the bodies. His name was Milan. I can't now recall his last

9 name. These were his colleagues from Inzinjering, and, yes his name is

10 Milan Radovic. His nickname was --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the nickname.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was collecting bodies. And

13 these were two of his colleagues from the Inzjnjering Construction

14 Company.

15 I know these two men as well. I don't know their names. They

16 were people with intellectual disabilities. It's impossible that a sane

17 person would have been doing this job.

18 Q. Now, just a couple of questions. You had mentioned Milan

19 Radovic's nickname but that wasn't caught by the interpreter. Could you

20 say that again, please?

21 A. Milan Radovic, also known as Gluvac.

22 Q. And which of the individuals -- we see three men on the screen.

23 Which of the three is Milan Radovic?

24 A. Milan Radovic is the one wearing the fur coat, with his back to

25 us.

Page 17035

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. DOBBYN: And if we could keep on playing, please.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 MR. DOBBYN: For the record, we've stopped at 22 minutes and 28

5 seconds.

6 Q. And sir, we can see people walking along the road. Do you know

7 what's going on at this point?

8 A. These were refugees from Zvornik and the neighbouring villages.

9 They were fleeing towards Kula Grad and trying to get to Tuzla and the

10 free territories.

11 Q. And just to be clear, what ethnicity were these refugees who were

12 fleeing the town?

13 A. They were all Muslim refugees.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. DOBBYN: And there's just a few seconds to go. If we could

16 continue playing, please.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 MR. DOBBYN: If could you stop there, please.

19 Q. And, sir, do you recognise anybody in this clip? This is at 22

20 and 40 seconds.

21 A. The man in the front is Ramiz Osmanovic. He worked at the public

22 utilities company together with me. He fled to Tuzla and then he went to

23 Germany, and currently he lives in the USA.

24 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, I have finished with the video-clip. I

25 actually have forgotten I have two maps to finish up with which should

Page 17036

1 just take a minute.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry. Could we

3 go back in this video to the first two stops. I would like you to ask

4 the witness about the uniformed man we see there, about the uniforms.

5 MR. DOBBYN: Certainly. The first stop was at 19 minutes and 43

6 seconds.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 MR. DOBBYN:

9 Q. Now, sir you see a man on the screen in front of you in a

10 uniform. Do you know what uniform that is or which organ or organisation

11 this person belonged to?

12 A. The one that's searching the man is a policeman. He has got a

13 blue uniform on, and then he has got a flakjacket on top. He was from

14 the Zvornik MUP. I don't know whether this might have been the Serbian

15 side. There was police on the Bosnian side and on the Serbian side, and

16 people were searched only on the Bosnian side and would then cross on the

17 other side.

18 MR. DOBBYN: Any further questions, Your Honour, on that?

19 The next stop was at 19 minutes and 52 seconds.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 MR. DOBBYN:

22 Q. And sir, again here we see on the right-hand side of the screen a

23 man in what looks like a blue beret and a flakjacket. Do you know which

24 organ this person was from?

25 A. Again he was from the MUP, from the Zvornik MUP, except that he

Page 17037

1 had a flakjacket on top. But his uniform was blue.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. DOBBYN: So we've finished with the video now. I'd like to

4 call up 65 ter 3680.

5 Q. Sir, on the screen in front of you, you'll see a map of the

6 industrial area of Zvornik. Now, from -- you have seen this map before.

7 You were shown it on Saturday. Can you tell me if this is an accurate

8 representation of the industrial area of Zvornik - Karakaj, that is - in

9 1992?

10 A. Just a moment for me to take a look.

11 Yes. Yes, it's an accurate map.

12 Q. Thank you. And I'd ask for the usher's assistance now. I'd like

13 you, first of all, to the far right of the map, you'll see the -- the

14 settlement or the area of Celopek. And just underneath the road a

15 building marked as the Dom.

16 Now, is that, according to your recollection, the correct

17 location of Celopek Dom Kulture; and, if so, could you put a circle

18 around that.

19 A. Yes. That's the cultural centre.

20 Q. Could you put a number 1 above that circle, please.

21 Sorry, sir, could you put the number 1 above the circle that

22 you've just marked.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. Thank you. And next to the left and down of that, you'll see

25 Ekonomija marked. Now, is that the Ekonomija farm; and, if so, could you

Page 17038

1 put a circle around that cluster of buildings.

2 A. Yes, that's the Ekonomija. The number 2?

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, please.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Now, sir, on this map, are you able to locate Gero's

6 slaughter-house?

7 A. Yes. Shall I circle it?

8 Q. Yes, please, with the number 3 on top.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. And, finally, sir, can you locate Karakaj Technical School on

11 this map?

12 A. That's the technical school. That's the technical school.

13 Q. Now I see you've put a marking above that. Is that the number 4?

14 A. It's the number 4, yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DOBBYN: I'd seek to tender this, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01697, Your Honours.

19 MR. DOBBYN: Finally, I have one more map. And this is 65 ter

20 3681.

21 Q. Now, what we have in front of us is somewhat difficult to see at

22 this size, but it's a larger map of Zvornik, including the portion that

23 we've just looked at in a separate map.

24 Now, could we perhaps zoom in on this. And if we could scroll

25 along so -- to the left, please.

Page 17039

1 Now, sir, there is quite difficult to see at this size --

2 MR. DOBBYN: I'm sorry, could we go a bit further to the right.

3 Thank you. That's good. Sorry, just a little bit more now to the right.

4 Thank you.

5 Q. Now, sir, are you -- can you locate Kula Grad on this map, which

6 is one of the locations that you referred to in your statement?

7 A. Kula Grad is here, I can see it, yes. Shall I circle it?

8 Q. Yes, please.

9 Sorry, before marking it, could we just pull back a bit because

10 we'll need to make another marking on the map as well.

11 A. I saw Kula Grad on the map. Shall I circle it?

12 Q. Not just yet. We're just waiting to get it to the right size.

13 Thank you. That's fine there.

14 Do you see Kula Grad now?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Could you circle it, please; and put the number 1 above that?

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Now, finally, sir, do you -- are you able to locate on this map

19 the SUP compound with -- the SUP building in Zvornik town, the basic

20 court, and the municipal building? Do you know where that's located?

21 A. I can see it all here. It's all in one complex over there.

22 I'll circle -- shall I circle them one by one or all together?

23 Q. If you could just circle them all together with the number 2 on

24 top, please.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 17040

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this map with the

3 markings and also the original without the markings as it included the

4 whole --

5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the original of this map without

7 the markings, which is 65 ter 3681, shall be given exhibit number 1698;

8 while the marked version shall be given exhibit number P01699. Thank

9 you, Your Honours.

10 MR. DOBBYN:

11 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions at this time.

12 JUDGE HALL: And we are actually beyond the point at which we

13 would ordinarily break, so before Mr. Cvijetic begins his

14 cross-examination, we would take the break now and return in 20 minutes.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: While the witness is brought in, Mr. Dobbyn, for

20 the next one, that's ST-222; is that right?

21 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Trial Chamber is granting two hours for your

23 examination. And we will add the difference between the 92 ter and the

24 viva voce estimate to the total amount of hours Prosecutor is entitled

25 to. So that -- that makes one hour and 30 minutes in addition. Thank

Page 17041

1 you.

2 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the witness,

4 can I just say something else.

5 Your Honours, the Defence for Stanisic applied for provisional

6 release over the Christmas break again. Can I, just so that it's all

7 dealt with, say that the Prosecution takes no position on this and will

8 leave it to the Trial Chamber. If that assists.

9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you -- thank you, Ms. Korner.

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- I'm sorry.

12 Your Honours, I'm not going to ask your permission to begin,

13 because I don't intend to begin at all. I presented my position to

14 Mr. Stanisic, he approved it, and we consequently have no questions for

15 this witness.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic.

18 And, Mr. Krgovic, I presume your position remains as indicated

19 previously, that you have no questions.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, we don't have questions for this

21 witness.

22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, this morning, when you were

24 explaining what the Muslim people were trying to do, get to Serbia,

25 across the bridge, if I'm right. And you also said they were trying to

Page 17042

1 get to the free territories.

2 Can I ask you what you mean by "free territories"? Not indicate

3 where they were, but why are you calling them "free territories"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The free territories was something,

5 to my understanding, the territories populated mainly by the Muslims,

6 such as Kalesija in the direction of Tuzla. And from the town of

7 Zvornik, whoever managed to get to Serbia, travelled further on via

8 Serbia to Hungary and the third country.

9 So one group of people sought salvation by fleeing to Serbia and

10 the others sought salvation in the Muslim territories where they thought

11 would be safe.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I understand that, Mr. Witness --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: It is on. Okay?

15 I understand that, Mr. Witness, but what strikes me is that you,

16 as a Serb, referred to those territories as "free territories," which

17 supposes that Zvornik was not free. I mean, there's something I have

18 difficulties to understand -- have difficulty to understand.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The town of Zvornik was not free,

20 as far as the Muslims were concerned. Because you can see from my

21 statement that there were camps set up, people were being killed, people

22 were afraid, and, therefore, they tried to flee where they would be free.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Now I understand. What you mean is free

24 from the Muslim point of view. So that's -- that's clear now. Thank you

25 very much.

Page 17043

1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, we thank you, sir, for your assistance

2 to the Tribunal. You are now released, and we wish a safe journey back

3 to your home.

4 The blinds could be lowered so the witness could be escorted from

5 the courtroom.

6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, I assume the Prosecution is ready with

8 its next witness immediately?

9 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, Your Honours. We are.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE HALL: Could you, sir, read the solemn declaration on the

14 card that's just been handed to you.

15 Actually, I suppose before he does that, the blinds should be

16 raised.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.

20 And I take it that you are hearing me in a language that you

21 understand, from your responses so far.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE HALL: Well, first of all, good morning to you, sir, and

24 thank you for coming to assist the Tribunal.

25 I would, first of all, point out that, for reasons peculiar to

Page 17044

1 yourself, you have, as an exception to the ordinary practices of the

2 Tribunal, been afforded certain protective measures. And whereas your

3 testimony can be heard by persons in the gallery, in other words,

4 broadcast, your identity is concealed and your voice distorted so that no

5 one who is listening in or watching the proceedings would be able to

6 identify you, either by your face or by your voice.

7 I would begin by reminding you that the solemn declaration that

8 you took imposes upon the obligation to give truthful testimony under

9 pain of the penalty for perjury, which this Tribunal is empowered to

10 impose for misleading or untruthful testimony.

11 The -- because of the protective measures that you have been

12 afforded, I would, first of all, invite the Prosecution to ask the usher

13 to hand you the pseudonym sheet, and if you are satisfied that it states

14 your name and date of birth, if you would please sign it and hand it back

15 to the usher.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I sign it, here?

17 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.

18 And that is admitted under seal and marked.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01700, under seal, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE HALL: You have been called by the Prosecution, who sits to

21 your right, and they have indicated that their examination of you would

22 last for about two hours. Counsel for the accused, Mr. Stanisic, has

23 indicated that their cross-examination may last for about three hours.

24 And -- all of which means that your testimony will not be completed by

25 the time the Court rises for the day at 1.45 in order to make the

Page 17049

1 Q. How long did you stay in that apartment?

2 A. Until 1998.

3 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to move on now to ask you some

4 questions about your knowledge of detention facilities in Zvornik.

5 And, first of all, turning to around May 1992, do you recall if

6 there was a detention facility operating in a location known as Ekonomija

7 farm?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And also at that time, was there a building called the Ekonomija

10 factory?

11 A. There was a building, and there were barns for the cattle.

12 Q. The building you're talking about, was that a factory?

13 A. No. That may have been the administrative building of the

14 company that was known as Ekonomija.

15 Q. Since 1992, at this location known as Ekonomija farm, has a

16 factory since been built there?

17 A. Yes. But that was only after the Dayton Accords. A factory of

18 some sort, a food factory, a biscuit factory.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know who was held at this detention

20 facility at Ekonomija farm?

21 A. Well, Muslims.

22 Q. Do you know where they had been arrested before being taken to

23 Ekonomija farm?

24 A. I wouldn't know. I don't know where they were arrested.

25 Q. I'd just like to explore that just a little further.

Page 17050

1 Do you know if they had been arrested in the Zvornik area or from

2 elsewhere?

3 A. I believe that they were arrested in the territory of Zvornik.

4 Q. Do you know who guarded this facility?

5 A. The reserve police of the Zvornik police station.

6 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to show a video now. This is 65 ter 3682.

7 And I will be starting at 8 minutes into this particular video.

8 [Video-clip played]

9 MR. DOBBYN:

10 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise the building that we can see on the

11 screen at the moment?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Which building is this?

14 A. This is the building where people were detained.

15 Q. Is this the building at Ekonomija farm where people were

16 detained?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And on the screen in front of you, you can see approximately

19 three doors on the building. Which of these doors led to the room where

20 detainees were held?

21 A. At the first door to the left, looking from where I sit.

22 MR. DOBBYN: And, Your Honours, just for the record, this is at 8

23 minutes and 8 seconds into the clip.

24 Q. Now, sir, could you describe the conditions of the room where the

25 detainees were held?

Page 17051

1 A. The room was 4 to 5 metres wide. They had blankets. The toilet

2 was outside. And that's all I can say.

3 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to continue playing the clip now.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 MR. DOBBYN: This is at 8 minutes and 40 seconds into the clip.

6 Q. Do you recognise the building that we've just been looking at?

7 A. You can see a building with windows, and this is where the guards

8 were billeted. This is where they lived.

9 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this video now.

10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01702, Your Honours.

12 MR. DOBBYN:

13 Q. Sir, referring to May 1992, do you know who was in charge of the

14 police guarding Ekonomija farm?

15 A. The entire police force?

16 Q. Sorry, perhaps my question should have been clearer.

17 Who was overseeing the guards at Ekonomija farm when it initially

18 opened?

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, stop there. I think

22 we need some redaction there, the reference to the relationship of this

23 person to the witness.

24 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

25 MR. DOBBYN:

Page 17052

1 Q. And, please, sir, I'm limiting this question to -- these

2 following questions to the time that Milos Milanovic was in charge of the

3 guards there, and if could you just limit your answers to that and we'll

4 move into private session later on.

5 Now, sir, how long did Milos Milanovic remain in charge of the

6 guards at Ekonomija farm?

7 A. Approximately 20 days. 20 to 25 days, thereabouts.

8 Q. Do you recall why he left or why he was relieved of that

9 position?

10 A. I don't know why he left. I only know that he became sick.

11 Q. Do you recall what, if anything, led to him becoming sick? What

12 contributed to his illness or sickness?

13 A. I wouldn't, no.

14 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, I wonder if, at this time, I could

15 attempt to refresh the witness's recollection about the circumstances of

16 the person being spoken about becoming ill.

17 JUDGE HALL: Is there any indication that the witness needs to

18 have his memory refreshed, Mr. Dobbyn?

19 MR. DOBBYN: Well, Your Honours, he was asked if he recalled what

20 if anything led to this particular person becoming ill and the question

21 [sic] I see is, I wouldn't, no. I could try to explore that a little

22 further with the witness.

23 JUDGE HALL: I see. It relates to that question, does it?

24 MR. DOBBYN: Yes. Yes, it does.

25 JUDGE HALL: Yes. You remember the procedure.

Page 17053

1 MR. DOBBYN: I don't know if I've used the procedure in this

2 courtroom yet, but I'll do my best. No, that's the problem we have here,

3 Your Honour, is that this particular witness won't be able to read it

4 because it's a transcript which we've only very recently received and

5 it's in English. I can't direct him to the passage in B/C/S, so the only

6 way I would be able to do it would be to read the passage to him.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe the B/C/S version exists of all his

8 testimonies.

9 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, the B/C/S version does exist. The

10 problem that as we've only recently received translations, I can't

11 identify where the relevant B/C/S portion is, and in the interests of

12 time I could simply read to him a small portion and see if that refreshes

13 his recollection.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I object, Your Honours. Now we are back to the --

15 to the situation that we had with two -- two witnesses before, and

16 Your Honours ruled because Your Honours accepted that -- that that

17 situation was different.

18 Now we are back to the original situation when they have to

19 refresh the memory of the witness.

20 So Mr. Dobbyn can provide the -- the B/C/S version of the -- of

21 the transcript of -- of -- of his testimony in the previous -- in other

22 cases, and maybe the witness can -- can try to find the relevant passage

23 during the break.

24 Thank you.

25 MR. DOBBYN: Perhaps, Your Honours, I could refer to the page in

Page 17054

1 the English version, and Defence counsel could direct us to where that is

2 in the B/C/S version. That might take a shorter amount of time.

3 And what I'm looking at is page 16 of the English version.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: What transcript are we talking about?

5 MR. DOBBYN: Oh, sorry. This is a transcript of an audio

6 recording of a witness interview 22 June, 2005. The ERN is 0678-4042 to

7 4071.

8 Actually, Your Honours I think we'll just move on. It is going

9 to take a bit longer. And, if necessary, I will come back to it after

10 the break.

11 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.

12 MR. DOBBYN:

13 Q. Now, Witness, while Mr. Milanovic was in charge of the detainees

14 at Celopek -- sorry, at Ekonomija farm, did you hear about any

15 mistreatment of detainees under his charge?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And could you tell us precisely what you heard.

18 A. I heard that paramilitaries came and beat one or two detainees.

19 Q. Who did you hear this information from?

20 A. I heard that from Petko Panic, the assistant commander, or

21 perhaps from Slavko Eric, who was also an assistant commander. (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, we'll need a redaction there of the

24 last line of his answer.

25 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

Page 17059

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank

4 you.

5 MR. DOBBYN:

6 Q. Again, sir, while answering my questions, please take care not to

7 give away anything that could reveal your identity.

8 Now, you have mentioned a detention facility at Karakaj Technical

9 School. Was this facility also guarded by police?

10 A. Yes, it was the same five men.

11 Q. Were the detainees ever interrogated at Karakaj Technical School?

12 A. No.

13 MR. DOBBYN: Could we please look at 65 ter 3419.17.

14 Q. Sir, do you recognise the location on the picture in front of you

15 now?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?

18 A. I don't know which buildings you're referring to. This is

19 Karakaj.

20 Q. Can you see the location where the detainees were held at Karakaj

21 Technical School?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. With the usher's assistance, I would ask you to mark, if you can,

24 on the picture, precisely where the detainees were held.

25 A. This was the entrance to the school work-shop. There was a door

Page 17060

1 there. That's where the entrance was. And that's where the detainees

2 were held.

3 Q. Just to make a bit more obvious, perhaps you could draw a larger

4 arrow pointing to where the door is.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I suggest then that this be deleted and then

6 an arrow be pointing.

7 MR. DOBBYN: Certainly. Thank you.

8 Could I tender this photograph now, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Hold on a minute. You asked the witness to

10 circle the area where the detainees were held. The only thing that's on

11 the photo so far is the arrow indicating the entrance. But in which part

12 of that building were then the detainees held?

13 Could you circle the part of the building, Mr. Witness?

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness.

16 The circle that you have drawn shows that detainees were held

17 only in a very small portion of that building. Is that -- that a correct

18 reflection of your indication?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I made a mistake. There's

20 a room on this side, and there's an entrance door, and there's a room

21 underneath. I made a mistake when I did the drawing.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Perhaps if the usher could assist the witness to

23 get the drawing right.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

25 Should it be a circle?

Page 17061

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, if you could. The -- the interest is to

2 have you indicate where in this building the detainees were held and so

3 if you can mark the area. If it is the entire building, then draw a

4 circle around the entire building; if it is a smaller area of the

5 building then, as precisely as you can, try and draw a circle around the

6 part of the building where the detainees were held.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

9 Does that circle indicate the entrance, or does it indicate the

10 entire area where detainees were held?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where the entrance was. I

12 can't see very clearly, so I put on my glasses. Could I please do the

13 marking again?

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. With the usher's assistance, let's try, for

15 a third time, to see if you can indicate the part of the building --

16 Mr. Usher, would you please assist the witness.

17 We're interested if you can circle the part of the building in

18 which, to your knowledge, the detainees were held.

19 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

21 I'll leave it to Mr. Dobbyn to complete this.

22 MR. DOBBYN: Yes.

23 Q. Sir, so now do we have the entire area where, from your

24 recollection, the detainees were held in that building?

25 A. Objectively speaking, yes.

Page 17062

1 Q. Just quickly, can you describe, perhaps, the size of the room

2 where the detainees were held?

3 A. The room was rather high. It might have been 5 metres by 5. And

4 for the purposes of heat in the room, it was encircled.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. DOBBYN: I'd seek to tender this photograph now.

7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01703, Your Honours.

9 MR. DOBBYN: And I believe it's time for the break now,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, could Your Honours remain just a

13 moment after the witness has left, just to raise scheduling.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we've noticed we're doing a sort of --

16 an afternoon, morning, afternoon, morning week, but, of course, Karadzic

17 isn't sitting and we've noticed that Courtroom I is available in the

18 morning on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and we were wondering whether

19 that would be something that we could take advantage so we don't go

20 morning, afternoon, morning, afternoon. And perhaps we can just raise

21 that that so the ...

22 JUDGE HALL: I don't think there is any dissent.

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, the second matter is this: The

25 estimate by the Stanisic team for Mr. Dobbyn's first witness this morning

Page 17063

1 was three hours, not no cross-examination. The next witness, both

2 witnesses who are here, there -- but the following witness who, on the

3 face of it, might well be expected to start tomorrow, doesn't arrive

4 until tonight and has to review four days of testimony, even though he is

5 being called viva voce. So it seems highly improbable that we will be

6 able to start with the next witness tomorrow, whether in the morning or

7 the afternoon, because he is going to need all day, in which event,

8 Your Honours, I was wondering whether -- I noted that Mr. Zecevic wanted

9 time off to discuss exhumations. We could use, say, whichever it is,

10 tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon to discuss that rather than taking

11 another day next week.

12 JUDGE HALL: Just a minute.

13 MS. KORNER: Certainly.

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 JUDGE HALL: Well, Mr. Zecevic has heard your suggestion, and, no

16 doubt, we're all agreed that we'll see what productive use we can make of

17 such time as is available.

18 MS. KORNER: Yep. Thank you very much, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.

20 20 minutes.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

23 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24 JUDGE HALL: While we are waiting for the witness to come in, the

25 Registry confirms the availability of Courtroom I tomorrow, so the --

Page 17064

1 we -- we could switch to morning sessions for the indicated times this

2 week, beginning tomorrow -- when we resume tomorrow.

3 Thank you.

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Dobbyn, you may continue.

7 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Sir, when we left off, we'd been discussing some detainees held

9 at Karakaj Technical School. Can you tell us how long they were held at

10 that location, those particular detainees?

11 A. For about 20 days.

12 Q. Where were they taken to next?

13 A. It was they moved to the misdemeanour court in Zvornik.

14 Q. And under whose order were these prisoners moved?

15 A. On the order of my superiors.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Witness, do you approximately recall how

17 many witnesses [sic] we're talking about?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not more than 15. Ten to 15.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

20 MR. DOBBYN:

21 Q. Now, sir, was this facility at the misdemeanour court also

22 guarded by police?

23 A. Yes. They were the same guards.

24 Q. Once the detainees were moved to the misdemeanour court, where

25 did the guards who moved with them sleep?

Page 17065

1 A. They were in the building of Novi Izvor, next to the misdemeanour

2 court.

3 Q. Now these two buildings, the misdemeanour court and Novi Izvor,

4 are they joined to each other?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were non-Serbs also detained in the Novi Izvor building?

7 A. Serbs or non-Serbs?

8 Q. Non-Serbs.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, who guarded that facility at the Novi Izvor building?

11 A. There were no detainees at Novi Izvor.

12 Q. Now, sir, perhaps if I can just explore this. I'd just asked

13 whether non-Serbs were also detained at the Novi Izvor building; and you

14 had responded that yes, they were.

15 So can you clarify again, did there come a time when non-Serbs

16 were also detained at the Novi Izvor building?

17 A. At that time, only the guards were accommodated in the building

18 of Novi Izvor. At that time. I'm talking about the time when they moved

19 from the technical school centre.

20 Q. At some time after the detainees were moved from the technical

21 school centre, did non-Serbs also come to be held at the Novi Izvor

22 building?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Are you saying at no time in 1992 non-Serbs were held at

25 Novi Izvor, or was there sometime later on when they were?

Page 17066

1 A. Later. There were some later.

2 Q. Can you tell us when it was that non-Serbs came to be held at the

3 Novi Izvor building?

4 A. That happened when people from Divic, that is, detainees from

5 Divic, were moved to the misdemeanour court from Karakaj, and those who

6 had been in the misdemeanour court were moved to the Novi Izvor building.

7 Q. Okay. And at that time when there were detainees in the

8 misdemeanour court and the Novi Izvor building, were the same guards

9 guarding both locations?

10 A. They were the same guards, and some others were brought in from

11 the Zvornik police station.

12 Q. So at that time were the misdemeanour court and the Novi Izvor

13 building operating, effectively, as a single facility?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Now before prisoners were placed in one of these facilities, were

16 they first interviewed or processed somewhere else?

17 A. They were first processed by military security, after which they

18 were brought to the Zvornik police station, and it was there that they

19 were interviewed or interrogated.

20 Q. And from there, were they then taken to one or other of these

21 detention facilities?

22 A. After that, they were brought to Novi Izvor. Because there was

23 more room there.

24 MR. DOBBYN: Now I'd like to call up 65 ter 2288.

25 Q. Sir, do you recognise the building in this photograph?

Page 17067

1 A. This is the building of the Zvornik SJB.

2 Q. And is this the building you have just been talking about where

3 people arrested would be processed before being sent to Novi Izvor?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to tender this photograph now,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01704, Your Honours.

9 MR. DOBBYN: Now, I'd like to move on and look at another

10 photograph now, and this is 65 ter number 3419.20.

11 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise what's shown in this photograph?

12 A. The SUP, the municipal building, the court-house, Novi Izvor, the

13 misdemeanour court.

14 Q. With the usher's assistance, if we could perhaps mark these

15 buildings. We will just wait for the usher to arrive, and then I'll tell

16 you which buildings I'd like you to mark.

17 First of all, could you put the number 1 over the misdemeanour

18 court.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Could you put a number 2 over the Novi Izvor building.

21 A. Just a moment.

22 Q. Yes. Please take your time.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. And, finally, could you put the number 3 over the Zvornik SJB

25 building, the SUP building?

Page 17083

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. DOBBYN: The 65 ter is 2826.

3 And could we please go to page 2 of the document.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I discussed with -- with

5 my learned friend about this document.

6 Basically what is the situation? Your Honours, 65 ter 2826 is

7 three documents. Three different documents. The -- the first page is

8 one document.

9 Let me ... let me briefly explain. The first page, with the ERN

10 number 0057-7954 is the document by the Red Cross of Prijedor, of the

11 municipality of Prijedor, dated 15th of October, 1992.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Zecevic.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry?

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could the usher show it to us, the first page, on

15 the screen -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... page number 1 of this

17 document.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: That would be helpful.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: 65 ter 2826.

20 And this document was sent to -- this is a request for approval

21 of transit, sent to the Presidency of Republika Srpska in Pale, to

22 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic or Buha. And it's dated 15th

23 October 1992, signed by the president of the Red Cross of Prijedor. So

24 in the -- in the north-west Bosnia.

25 Now the page 2 of the document is the list of the detainees, or

Page 17084

1 the arrestees, and it's dated 24/09/1992. And it lists on -- on page 2

2 and page 3, it lists altogether 42 persons.

3 Then page 4 is another list of the detainees, and this one has

4 the -- has in the logo of the C -- SJB Zvornik, also dated 24th

5 September 1992. And so does the fifth page, which is the list of -- of

6 detainees dated 24 September 1992.

7 Now, the last page of the document, page 6 -- or page 7,

8 actually, the last page of the document, is another document, completely

9 different document, dated 22nd of October, 1992, and it's issued by the

10 Ministry of Justice and signed by -- by then-minister Momcilo Mandic, and

11 it was directed to the municipalities of Hadzici and Ilidza.

12 Now, Your Honours the situation is, therefore, the following:

13 The first page of the document, of this 65 ter 2826, is one document;

14 then, next four pages is the second document; and the last page is a

15 third document. Nothing whatsoever connects these three documents. And

16 to -- so, my suggestion is that that -- that -- that our friends from the

17 Prosecutor should divide this into three documents, give them the

18 appropriate 65 ter numbers, and only then use -- use this document as --

19 as a -- as a different 65 ter number.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, what would be the -- the ERN number

21 of the last one?

22 MR. ZECEVIC: The last one is ERN number 0057-7959.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Now, Your Honours, I'm afraid that is not the end.

25 To make things even more complicated, I -- I talked to Mr. Dobbyn during

Page 17085

1 the break, and I -- I thought that we -- that we have found an agreement

2 on it. I say that these three pages, which are the list of the

3 detainees, is a part of another document, which has already been admitted

4 in the -- in the case file of -- in this -- in this case, and that is the

5 document P393.

6 If we can have the P393 on the -- on the -- on -- on monitor,

7 please.

8 Can we have the -- so the P393 is the document dated 22nd of

9 October, 1992. It is the Republika Srpska Ministry of Justice, and this

10 is a report sent to the president of the Presidency, to the president of

11 Republika Srpska, the president of the Assembly, and the president of the

12 government -- and the prime minister.

13 Now, on page 3, Your Honours -- page 2 first. Page 2 first. It

14 says: Information on the conditions in prisons and the -- and

15 gathering -- gathering -- sorry -- collection camps of the war prisoners.

16 And it says Zvornik under number 2. It is obviously the page 3 in

17 English.

18 So, on this very same page, in English, it says, the very last

19 concerning Zvornik: "Enclosed herewith is a list of detained persons by

20 category."

21 And I say, Your Honours, that the previous document which we saw,

22 65 ter 2826, pages 2, 3, 4, and 5, are the part of this document and the

23 list that is referred to in document P393.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: But -- but P393 does not contain the list?

25 MR. ZECEVIC: No it doesn't.

Page 17086

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: I guess, Your Honours, it is the photocopying when

3 these documents were seized, or when -- I don't really know when and how

4 these documents were seized by -- by the investigators of the Office of

5 the Prosecutor.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have, to be complete, 65 ter number of

7 P393?

8 MR. ZECEVIC: It's 65 ter 258.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: So what I would suggestion -- what my suggestion

11 would be is that -- that -- that our friends from the Office of the

12 Prosecutor actually upload again the -- the document P393, of course,

13 with the leave of the Trial Chamber and with the agreement of the Office

14 of the Prosecutor, including these -- these four pages from 65 ter 2826,

15 and the first and the last page of that document should give them -- they

16 should give another -- another numbers [sic] or one -- one other

17 number -- one other 65 ter number so as to be separate documents.

18 I'm sorry, it -- I -- I know it's -- it's pretty complicated, but

19 I -- I think that -- that this would be of assistance to the Trial

20 Chamber and all involved.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Absolutely. And thank you for this, Mr. Zecevic.

23 Now, are any of you - Defence or Prosecution - able then to say

24 who authored this list? Was that the Red Cross or was it the SUP?

25 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, as far as the actual lists go, our

Page 17087

1 understanding is that these were authored by the SUP.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

3 MR. DOBBYN: And as Mr. Zecevic has correctly said, the document

4 at the front, which I believe is a Red Cross document, is completely

5 unrelated to the list itself. I entirely agree with Mr. Zecevic's

6 proposal. I had simply been -- I was going do get the evidence that was

7 relevant to this document first and then deal with the suggestion but I'm

8 happy to go along with what has been suggested.

9 JUDGE HALL: And mercifully, from my point of view, we are at the

10 end of today's sitting.

11 So overnight this could be sorted out and when we resume tomorrow

12 we should have this sorted out.

13 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, we're about to take the adjournment for

15 today. You, having been sworn as a witness, cannot have any

16 communication with counsel from either side, and in such conversations as

17 you may have with persons outside of the courtroom you cannot discuss

18 your testimony. We are scheduled to resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning in

19 another courtroom, to which you will be conducted.

20 So if the blinds could be lowered and the witness can be escorted

21 out and then we will rise.

22 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, there is just one final matter also

23 before we adjourn and that is that because there is no cross-examination

24 of the last witness we didn't actually officially tender his 92 ter

25 package.