1 Wednesday, 10 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
12 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner and
13 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and
15 Ms. Merinda Stewart, appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic and
17 Aleksandar Aleksic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 This morning's witness is in closed session, but before we do
20 that, I understand there are some preliminary matters.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are a number of administrative
22 matters. Perhaps can I deal with one that I understand was raised
23 yesterday, and I don't think either side is clear why we have to raise it
24 formally but we are told we do, and that is that the sitting on the 22nd
25 of November, which will be a videolink, should be in the afternoon, not
1 the morning. We got an e-mail about that. I thought Your Honours had
2 dealt with that yesterday, but apparently not.
3 Anyhow, can we formally make that application. It's a joint
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So ordered.
6 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
7 Your Honours, the next matter deals with an exhibit that was
8 tendered by the Defence when Witness ST-197 gave evidence, and was marked
9 for identification on the 19th of October, at page 16225 of the
10 transcript, 2D116.
11 Your Honours may recall that this was a map purporting to show
12 various dispositions of what was described as HVO and -- the ABiH army or
13 the Green Berets, I can't remember, in Kotor Varos, at a particular time
14 in 1992. Two maps were shown to the witness. Only one was sought to be
15 exhibited, marked over -- marked for identification, sorry. And
16 Your Honours may recall that throughout I was asking Mr. Krgovic whether
17 this was a copy of an original map, where it came from, and what it was
18 based. And at page 16224, 1, I said, Is this map a copy produced by
19 Mr. Dragan Mihajlovic in Banja Luka, which is to say the technical
20 production from other documentation or is it a map that was produced at
21 the time in 1992, because that makes a difference.
22 And Mr. Krgovic said, Your Honours, what I learned when I
23 obtained the map or I asked to be given the state of affairs as it was in
24 1992 since I wasn't able to obtain an original from that time I obtained
25 a copy on the Secretariat for Cooperation with ICTY in Banja Luka, I add
1 in parenthesis, and I was told that this was copy of a map dating back to
2 the period.
3 I then asked to see the original and asked Mr. Krgovic to obtain
4 them and he said it would take a couple of months. Well, Your Honours,
5 we decided that we'd try and shorten matters, so an investigator was sent
6 to this institution on the 4th of November, Mr. Koehler, and he spoke to
7 the director of the institution. He was provided with the maps,
8 regrettably, and I think the reason is I gave my own copy to the witness.
9 Not the particular one that was identified but there were a series of
10 five of them and one of them was put to the witness. And the answer we
11 got as to how these maps are produced is that they were produced by an
12 analytical researcher who was working on a project to publish a book on
13 Kotor Varos. It was not actually finished. The maps were based on
14 research done by this gentleman, Mr. Mirko Markovic. He did not possess
15 original maps from the army but the overlays that were put onto what was
16 an ordinary map of Kotor Varos were put on in 2005. They were produced
17 before a book had been published, which was referred to in evidence.
18 They don't have original maps. They did not ask for access to army maps.
19 And they have never been checked, they have never been, as he put it,
20 verified. They need to be updated, they are drafts, and the dates and
21 the entries on the maps are unverified.
22 Your Honour, in those circumstances, I would ask that any
23 suggestion that in the present state of affairs - in other words, they've
24 nothing to do with 1992, we don't know the information on which they're
25 based, we haven't got a statement from the person who drew them - that
1 they have no status at all even to be marked for identification, that
3 So, therefore, I'm asking simply that the marking be removed.
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I was tendering
6 these maps, I was convinced that they were maps showing the positions of
7 the Muslim and Croatian forces in the -- that period. That is, 1992.
8 After the testimony of the witness mentioned by Ms. Korner, I also sent
9 my investigator out, but not to the director of the centre but to the man
10 who made the maps. My information differs significantly from that
11 information which the OTP's investigator has; namely, that these maps
12 faithfully reflect the situation from 1992.
13 It is my intention to call the author of these maps when I start
14 leading evidence. But I'm not going to use this map before I start --
15 before the Defence case, nor will I request that the MFI mark be removed.
16 I believe nothing would be gained by doing so. I'm not going to use this
17 map in the examination of witnesses before the beginning of the Defence
19 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, it seems to me that the -- Mr. Krgovic's
20 assertion that he expects to be in a position to raise the level of
21 reliability, to put it that way, of these so-called maps in his -- at the
22 time his case is opened, and that he doesn't intend to do anything
23 further with them in the interim, would suggest that the Chamber need
24 take no action on your application at this time. In other words, the
25 present position could remain, and I think Mr. Krgovic accepts that he --
1 if is he not in a position to call a witness who can authenticate these
2 maps, then, for the reasons that you have set out, then they must fall
4 Isn't that where we are?
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the fact remains that, at present,
6 something has been marked for identification exhibit which has absolutely
7 no basis in law or fact for being so marked.
8 And one of the worrying things - and I have raised this from time
9 to time during the course of this case - is it is incumbent upon counsel,
10 before they try and put in a document through a witness, to check the
11 provenance of that document. And Mr. Krgovic clearly didn't. And our
12 concern is that it -- it will disappear into the great morass of matters
13 which never do get resolved.
14 I hear what Mr. Krgovic says. It is presently his intention to
15 call somebody to deal with that. That may or may not happen. But the
16 upshot is that we have got marked for identification a document which has
17 no basis for being so marked.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may say ...
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] hold on.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, the Chamber is just wondering what
23 exactly turns on this map. Is it something that is of any major
24 importance to your case?
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this map shows the
1 positions of the Muslim and Croatian forces just before the start of the
2 conflict in Kotor Varos.
3 When I received the map, the information I got was that it
4 reflects the state of affairs as it was in 1992. After the objection of
5 Ms. Korner, I didn't give up and, although the witness who was giving
6 testimony could not confirm the details of that map, I decided not to
7 show the other maps, and this one was marked for identification because
8 the witness was unable to confirm the details.
9 At any rate, though, I, just like Ms. Korner, sent out an
10 investigator to the grounds to check matters once more, and my
11 information differs greatly from that which Ms. Korner got. I
12 verified -- I didn't verify with a man who has second-hand information
13 but directly with the author. But as I said, I do not intend to use it,
14 and if I'm unable to verify the credibility of the map, I will withdraw
15 my application to have the map marked for identification. I know how to
16 act in such a case.
17 But this is of no extreme importance for the Defence case, to
18 return to your original question.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic. It was exactly to show a
20 way out of this conundrum.
21 In any case, Ms. Korner, for the moment, I think status of a
22 document as being marked for identification means exactly that, that it
23 is somewhere in the middle. It's not in evidence, and if it hasn't been
24 de-MFIed, to use this fantastic new verb, by the end of the trial, it
25 falls away.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we've actually been -- we've got a
2 three-stage process: One, it doesn't even get marked; two, it gets
3 marked for identification; and three, it gets exhibited. My submission
4 was, but I'm not going to spend any more time on it, that it has
5 absolutely no status whatsoever as any kind of document that should -- it
6 should never have been put, effectively, without Mr. Krgovic having
7 assured himself as to what it was and to be able to explain, when asked,
8 what it was.
9 However, I'm not going to pursue the matter any further. I've
10 made the point.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. We have your comments on the record
12 and I think we will take no further action on this issue at this moment.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, a third matter affects purely the
14 Prosecution, and it's the second or third time I'm returning to this. I
15 hope Your Honours have now got a copy of our calculations as supplied to
16 Ms. Featherstone. We are perfectly prepared to admit that there are
17 greater minds than ours that have been working on this, but from our
18 workings out, we don't need to apply for any further time; that witnesses
19 who remain who come under the old timing, as it were, we still have time
20 to call them within the time that's been added. If we're wrong, then all
21 we ask is whoever has done this study tells us how many hours we're short
22 so that we can make the application for the extra hours.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's how we understand it as well, Ms. Korner.
24 We're working on it.
25 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you very much. Your Honours, just
1 so that's clear.
2 Your Honours, finally I understand - and we may need to go into
3 private session for this - that Mr. Krgovic wishes to object to some of
4 the evidence that I'm going to lead from the next witness.
5 Your Honour, the adjudicated facts that the witness is going to
6 deal with are --
7 THE REGISTRAR: Counsel, before you go ahead, please, would you
8 like us to go in private session?
9 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... we need to go into
10 private session before I hear Mr. Krgovic's objection.
11 Your Honours, it is Adjudicated Fact 193, which was disallowed in
12 whole, and Adjudicated Fact 818, also disallowed in whole.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 17178-17179 redacted. Private session.
19 [Closed session]
11 Pages 17181-17243 redacted. Closed session.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of
23 November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.