Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17696

 1                           Wednesday, 24 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.28 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Good morning to everyone.

12             Before I take the appearances, the Chamber apologises for any

13     inconvenience caused to the parties and the accused for the delayed

14     start.

15             May we have the appearances, please.

16             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

17     Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith on behalf of the Prosecution.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

19     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Merinda Stewart appearing

20     for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you very much.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

22     Igor Pantelic, and 0Aleksandar Aleksic for Zupljanin Defence.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24             Yes, Ms. Korner.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, before the next witness comes, I have a

Page 17697

 1     number of administrative matters which I would like to raise.

 2             Can I say that it appears from what I've just been told by the

 3     Defence that there's unlikely to be any cross-examination of the next

 4     witness by the Stanisic team and that Mr. Krgovic's estimate of

 5     three-hours is well over what he actually expects to take.  So it's

 6     likely that this witness, given that Your Honours have given me one hour,

 7     is going to finish well short of 2.00.

 8             But, Your Honour, that led leads me on to various matters.

 9             Your Honours, we have now worked out with the remaining witnesses

10     which Your Honours said we should call before the 17th -- before the --

11     the break on the 17th of December, that, in fact, with the witnesses we

12     can call, we will be finishing the week of the -- the end of the week of

13     the 3rd of December, I -- no 5th of -- no.  Just let me get that right --

14     6th.  Your Honours, we will not be going beyond that week, so there will

15     be a full week free.

16             One of the reasons is there is a particular witness, ST-228, who

17     would have come under the -- Your Honours' ruling that we should call all

18     witnesses but Ewan Brown and if Your Honours grant leave, the other

19     witnesses that we've applied to add, before the break.  He is also

20     testifying in the Karadzic case.  Your Honours, this is a witness who's

21     testified a great many times; he's an adjudicated fact witness; he's not

22     in the best of health; and, therefore, we would wish to combine him so

23     that he only has to come to the Tribunal once with the Karadzic case, so

24     that he testifies first in Karadzic.  There would then have to be a day's

25     break at least while his transcript was considered by the Defence.  But

Page 17698

 1     for various reasons, as Your Honours know, the Karadzic case has not been

 2     sitting and is not going to re-sit until, I think, mid-December,

 3     sometime.  It can only be in January.  So we'd ask Your Honours' leave to

 4     carry that one witness, who's an adjudicated fact witness, 228, into

 5     January.  So that he can be combined with the Karadzic case.

 6             Your Honours, that, therefore, means there will be a full week

 7     where there'll be no evidence, it's possible, to call.  At the moment

 8     Your Honours order is that we should restart with the evidence on the

 9     10th of January with Mr. Brown or the other two witnesses, if you give

10     leave.

11             I understand that the Defence application - and I think, perhaps,

12     they should make it today because we need to know where we're going - is

13     that we should not sit at all that week.  So perhaps if I could sit down

14     for a moment - there are other matters - to see if that is actually the

15     application.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, that is precisely the application.

17     And I believe -- I think two weeks ago or three weeks ago we informed

18     Ms. Featherstone that that is going to be our -- our request, the kind

19     request to the Trial Chamber.  Because if you remember, we have -- due to

20     the Serbian calendar, there is -- there is a difference of our -- our

21     Christmas and our new year.  And last year it was kindly acknowledged by

22     this Trial Chamber and in most of the cases it has been acknowledged that

23     the 13th and the 14th are the days off due to religious reasons, or

24     actually a new -- a Serbian new year.

25             Now, the -- having said that, it -- it -- it appears that -- that

Page 17699

 1     if we start on the -- on the 10th, then we will have two days and then --

 2     or three days and then a break for -- for two days.  And if -- I don't --

 3     I don't think that -- that it -- it makes much sense that -- that we do

 4     it like that.  Just for the -- for the purposes of -- of resources,

 5     witnesses staying here for a longer period of time, and the like.

 6             So our -- our suggestion is that we start on the -- the week of

 7     the 17th, and it is our estimation at the moment that we will finish all

 8     the remaining witnesses in that week.

 9             That is ... that is our position.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             MS. KORNER:  May I say something for -- I see Your Honours

12     considering the matter.

13             First of all, I mean, this application has been made in other

14     cases and not been granted.  But can I put it this way:  The -- the

15     Prosecution will not object -- we can move the witnesses, provided we

16     know; but provided, that time counts towards preparation for the Defence

17     case.  And indeed the week off that we're going to have at the end of --

18     in December.  That's our -- we're very anxious that this case should

19     proceed.

20             And one of the suggestions I'm going make is that we should have

21     a 65 ter Conference before we all break for Christmas to see exactly

22     where we're going and how long is going to be allotted for the gap

23     between the Prosecution and Defence case.

24             If Your Honours, say, accede to this request made by the Defence,

25     as I say, we won't object, but we say that the time should count towards

Page 17700

 1     preparation.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, the Chamber will -- will not make a

 4     decision on this immediately.  But could we have the Defence's response

 5     to what Ms. Korner has just indicated, that the apparent week in

 6     December and the applied-for week in January would count towards the

 7     preparation time the Defence has.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, we strongly oppose that.

 9             At the outset of -- at the very beginning of this trial, at

10     the -- at the Status Conference, and on other Status Conferences, I

11     clearly stated that the Defence requests two months for the preparation

12     of the Defence case undisturbed.

13             Your Honours, we cannot -- we -- we are forced to -- to move the

14     Witness Ewan Brown because we can't prepare for him due to amount of

15     material that has been disclosed to us recently or in the meantime.  Now,

16     that -- that is the reason why Mr. Brown, as -- as an expert witness, is

17     coming in January.  And that was acknowledged by the Trial Chamber.

18             Your Honours, we have a huge problem with the exhumations.  I

19     would -- I would need every minute of it -- of the time to deal with

20     these issues.  I cannot -- and -- and I -- I really cannot accept that

21     we -- that we start the preparation of the Defence case.  And -- and,

22     Your Honours, we lack the time to prepare for -- for these two very

23     big -- big issues.  The exhumations I will explain -- I will explain when

24     I'm ready for the submissions, probably next week, beginning of next

25     week; and I will explain what is the situation there.  And the situation

Page 17701

 1     is a very complicated one from the point of Defence.

 2             Therefore, we -- we also understand, Your Honours, that at the

 3     end of the Prosecutor's case there is going to be a bar table motion.

 4     Now, we cannot really start preparing the -- the Defence case seriously

 5     without the -- without the bar table motion and then we -- that we see

 6     what -- what -- what exhibits are admitted in the -- during the

 7     Prosecutor's case.

 8             I mean, it doesn't say -- it doesn't mean, of course, that we are

 9     not preparing for the Defence case.  We are doing that since -- since

10     April this year.  But the -- the -- the real reparation can only start

11     the moment when the Prosecutor's case finish.

12             I'm sorry, I wasn't prepared to make the submission because it

13     wasn't suggested in the -- in the list that Ms. Korner was -- was

14     providing to us last night that this is going to be an issue.  She never

15     said that -- that they are going to ask that the time be counted in the

16     preparation of Defence case.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Well, in terms of the decision which the Chamber has

18     to make, we now know you generally oppose that part of what the -- it

19     isn't really an application, but the Prosecution's view differs from

20     yours.  But there is something that you have added which intrigues me,

21     Mr. Zecevic.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

23             JUGE HALL:  Intrigue is probably the wrong word; confuses me is

24     probably more accurate.  The -- this matter of exhumations.  I know that

25     the substantial element of it is with the Trial Chamber and we are in

Page 17702

 1     fact working on it, but I had been under the impression from when this

 2     matter was last raised that there was a subsidiary aspect in respect of

 3     which the -- both sides were trying to reach some accommodation.  But did

 4     I hear you to say that there are going to be further submissions on -- do

 5     I gather from that, that these discussions have proved fruitless and

 6     therefore there's going to be a second part to this exhumations business

 7     which the Chamber is going to have to consider?

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.

 9             The first -- the first question was a legal question: Whether or

10     not the Prosecutor is allowed to add additional 1.700 victims to the --

11     to the list which do not appear in the schedules of the indictment.  That

12     is the -- the question which is now in -- before the Trial Chamber.

13             The second part is that at that point when -- or actually at the

14     point where we were first disclosed the database, the exhumations

15     database, the Defence requested all the underlying documents for -- for

16     the victims in the schedules to the indictment.

17             Now, we have been disclosed another set of materials, and we've

18     been discussing the -- the contents of this disclosure.  Now,

19     unfortunately, it appears that the -- that this amount of material which

20     was disclosed to us on our request does not contain any of the

21     information that we are -- that we need or that we hoped we will get from

22     the -- from the Office of the Prosecutor.  Therefore -- and it appears

23     also that the Office of the Prosecutor does not have the documents which

24     we asked for.  That is our understanding at the moment.

25             So -- so that is -- that is going to -- that creates a problem,

Page 17703

 1     Your Honours.  And -- and that is going to be my submission.  I have

 2     to -- to make a submission to the Trial Chamber and explain in detail

 3     what is the -- what the Defence see as potentially a really big problem.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, so we have been alerted.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, can I say that -- there was a

 7     meeting between Ms. Pidwell and Mr. Zecevic and Ms. Savic last Friday

 8     where it was all carefully explained.  We do not understand what the

 9     problem is but no doubt we will hear when Mr. Zecevic makes his

10     submission.

11             But, Your Honour, can I go back to what he said.  First, the

12     bar table motion will be filed next Monday at the latest, we hope.  It's

13     being worked on at the moment, so it won't be at the end of the case.

14             The second thing is this:  All Defence teams have a large number

15     of lawyers working on them.  In Mr. Zecevic's case, there are three in

16     court at the moment, a legal assistant outside court, and whoever else.

17     The same applies, as can you see, from the Zupljanin case.  And the idea

18     is that you divide the work so that if one person is in court or dealing

19     with the witnesses, others are dealing with other -- other lawyers are

20     dealing with other matters relating to the case.

21             Mr. Zecevic said he didn't -- he wasn't aware I was going to

22     raise it.  Item number 2 states whether you are asking for the week of

23     the 10th of January to be vacated.  Now, Your Honours, I cannot see how

24     Mr. Zecevic can say he's been taken by surprise.  All we're saying is

25     that the week that's going to be free in December and the week that's

Page 17704

 1     going to be in January should be used by at least one of the lawyers

 2     towards preparation of the Defence case.  This case, as Your Honours

 3     know, for various reasons has lasted a lot longer than anybody

 4     anticipated, and we really should be getting a move on.  And those are

 5     the submissions we make on that.

 6             So, Your Honours, obviously we would need to know, really, just

 7     whether you're going to - regardless of whether you agree with our

 8     submission that it should be added to the Defence time - whether you are

 9     going to vacate the 10th of January so that we can make arrangements,

10     particularly with Mr. Brown, who has the problems that he's a

11     self-employed contractor these days.

12             Your Honours, then, I've dealt with the witness called in

13     January --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, I nodded, but I suppose I should say for the

15     sake of the record:  Of course.

16             Thank you.  Please continue.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I next move to witnesses relating

18     to the Mladic notebooks.

19             Your Honours have had submissions on whether or not witnesses

20     should need to be called at all.  The Defence request is that they are

21     both called under the provisions of 92 ter.  We all agree, it seems, that

22     there's no point in the two witnesses repeating the evidence they've

23     already given.

24             I should tell Your Honours that one of the matters that

25     Your Honours raised, namely, that public evidence had been given about

Page 17705

 1     the diaries, yesterday in the Stanisic/Simatovic case the evidence was

 2     made public.  So that is now a fact.

 3             So, Your Honours, the reason we're asking is because if you want

 4     us to call particularly one of the witness before Christmas, which we can

 5     do, but we need to know that, please, this week, because it means someone

 6     will have to go and see the witness next week for him to be called in the

 7     last -- last week of -- that we've got witnesses.  So if -- we'd be very

 8     grateful if we could have the ruling - oral ruling would be fine - this

 9     week.

10             Your Honour, the next matter is how the 92 bis witnesses are to

11     be dealt with that Your Honours have agreed.

12             In most cases we've noticed that a summary is read into the

13     record of their evidence.  Would Your Honours be happy with that as a --

14     as a method of dealing with them?  Perhaps you would like to consider

15     that matter at some stage, given that we will have time.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I should say, otherwise the general

18     public has no idea what all these witnesses say, there's no public record

19     if they just go in like that.  There's got to be some kind of

20     acknowledgment of what these witnesses are dealing with.

21             Your Honours, as I said, we suggest that the 65 ter Conference,

22     before we break for Christmas, may be a useful thing to hold as to -- as

23     to what's going to happen.  And particularly in the light of

24     Mr. Zecevic's protestations about the time needed.

25             And, finally, Your Honours, Witness 223, again, an adjudicated

Page 17706

 1     fact witness who is due to testify next week, when contacted by VWS said

 2     that he was unwell and is -- was going to provide a medical certificate.

 3     A videolink has already been organised for ST - let me just get the

 4     number - 244 next week.  223 actually lives in the same general area.

 5     And so it may be just simpler if we have both of them by videolink.  And

 6     I -- I don't believe the Defence have ever objected to evidence by

 7     videolink.  And so if that's possible, perhaps Your Honours could let us

 8     know then we can get in touch to make the arrangements.  The videolink

 9     has been arranged for next week for 223.

10             JUDGE HALL:  We have been alerted to that, and we will revert to

11     you as soon as possible, Ms. Korner.

12             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

13             Your Honours, that's finally -- can I ask just to go into private

14     session, please, to deal with one matter which relates to the next

15     witness.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  And we don't know whether the Defence was alerted to

Page 17707

 1     this matter, the videolink in respect of the witness - was it 233?  But

 2     if -- 223.  But if you are in a position to have considered it, it would

 3     be useful for us to hear from you now; if not, in the course of today.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, we were not aware -- we just got the

 5     information about it, so perhaps at the first break, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ...

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... so we go back into --

 9             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... Your Honours, that's quite

10     right.  This is something that just arose this morning, and so I didn't

11     have a chance to notify the Defence about that.

12             Could we go into private session now.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17708

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes, we'll I -- we can say this in open session,

25     yes.

Page 17709

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, finally, you will have seen on our

 4     list that there was an extra document added which wasn't part of the

 5     65 ter package which was one which was late disclosed to the Defence

 6     because we had to get the permission of the provider.  It was --

 7     actually, it arose in the Brdjanin case but with a different witness.

 8     However, Your Honour, I'm not making any application to add that document

 9     to our list or try and produce it as an exhibit in the light of the --

10     the fact, I understand it, the witness who's now coming hasn't seen the

11     document before.

12             So -- until I saw him yesterday, I wasn't aware of that.  So I'm

13     not making the application, although it's on our list.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unrelated to this, we

15     expressed our views to Ms. Korner yesterday in terms that we oppose the

16     use of this documents because they have not demonstrated any justifiable

17     reasons for late disclosure and adding it to 65 ter list.  This document

18     was admitted into the Brdjanin evidence through another

19     document [as interpreted], so it was well known that this document

20     existed.

21             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] [Previous translation

22     continues] ...

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

24             JUDGE HALL:  So could we have the witness escorted to the stand,

25     please.

Page 17710

 1             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... are we going for the

 2     normal break at 10.25, or whatever it is?

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Well, bearing in mind that the accused would have

 4     been here, I intend to take the -- to stick to the usual times.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  I think I speak, or

 8     at least I try to speak, a language you understand?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your testimony.  You

12     are about to read the solemn declaration by which witnesses commit

13     themselves to tell the truth.  I need to point out that the solemn

14     declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the penalty of

15     perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to this

16     Tribunal.

17             Now, then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the

18     solemn declaration.

19             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

20     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  CHARLES GEORGE ALEXANDER McLEOD

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You may be seated.

23             And, sir, could we begin by asking you to state your full name

24     and your date and place of birth.

25             THE WITNESS:  Certainly.  I'm Charles George Alexander McLeod.  I

Page 17711

 1     was born on the 27th of March, 1963, in London.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what is your profession today?

 3             THE WITNESS:  I build schools.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what was your occupation in 1992?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I was working for the ECMM.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  I understood that this is far from being

 7     your first appearance before this Tribunal, so I don't have to explain

 8     you the proceedings in court.

 9             The only thing I could -- the only information I could provide

10     you with is that the Prosecutor has asked for one hour.  You are a

11     so-called 92 ter witness that -- which means that you -- the transcript

12     of your previous testimony will be taken into account in this -- in this

13     case instead of an extensive examination-in-chief.  The Stanisic Defence

14     ask for 30 minutes for cross-examination, and the Zupljanin Defence

15     for -- three hours.  So that's all.

16             And I give the floor to Ms. Korner.

17             MS. KORNER:  On that last note, I don't believe those are now the

18     time estimates.  Perhaps we could establish that.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One hour for you, Ms. Korner?

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes, one hour for me, but --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thirty minutes for Stanisic.  And not more than

22     three hours for --

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I don't believe -- yes, I don't think that's

24     right anymore.  I think I raised that with Your Honours.  I don't think

25     the Stanisic Defence intend to cross-examine, as I understand it.

Page 17712

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Not at all, Mr. Zecevic?

 2             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Mr. Krgovic will go first, and we may not, in

 3     fact, have any questions.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic go first.  Okay.  Thank you.

 5             And Mr. Krgovic, what are you --

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honours, I don't think that I would take three

 7     hours.  Most probably maybe 40, 50 minutes.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 9                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

10        Q.   Yes.  Mr. McLeod, first of all, can I just deal a little bit more

11     with your background.

12             I think that in -- prior to July of -- or June of 1992 you were

13     in the British Army.

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   And had you been in the British Army for some 12 years by then?

16        A.   I had been in for ten years.

17        Q.   Ten.  And had you achieved the rank of captain?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And did you then, in July of 1992, did you join, as it was then,

20     the European Community Monitoring Mission, ECMM?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And did you go to Bosnia in July/August of 1992?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You testified in the Brdjanin case on the 21st and

25     24th of June, 2002; is that right?

Page 17713

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And, in fact, during the course of the weekend, you were asked to

 3     correct a type-written version of the notes that you had made.

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Have you had a chance to review the testimony in the Brdjanin

 6     case?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.

 8        Q.   And if asked the same questions, would your answers be the same?

 9        A.   They would.

10        Q.   Now just so that we can briefly run through the events that you

11     described in the Brdjanin case, I think at the end of August, you took

12     part in meetings in the Autonomous Region of Krajina area with Serb

13     officials in order to make arrangements for an inspection that was to be

14     undertaken by a committee that had been set up by, as it was then, the

15     CSCE, now OSCE, as a result of the London Conference.

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Those meetings took place in Banja Luka and later in Gradiska and

18     Prijedor?

19        A.   Well, the initial meetings were in Banja Luka.  By the time we

20     had the mission with us, then we went to Gradiska and to Prijedor.

21        Q.   Right.  And I think had you dealings, inter alia, with

22     Predrag Radic, as you understood it, the mayor of Banja Luka?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   One meeting attended by Stojan Zupljanin.  And we'll look at the

25     notes of that in a moment.

Page 17714

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   And also in Prijedor Milomir Stakic, also as you understood it,

 3     the mayor of Prijedor?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Did you accompany the CSCE mission which had been -- which was

 6     being led by Sir John Thomson when it visited Manjaca, Trnopolje, and the

 7     Prijedor area?

 8        A.   I did.

 9        Q.   Later on, were you present in November 1992 when Manjaca camp was

10     closed?

11        A.   I was.

12        Q.   I think it's right that you kept your own notes about the

13     meetings and the visits, and based on those notes you wrote reports for

14     ECMM.

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And, additionally, you were able to provide the Trial Chamber

17     with photographs that you personally took yourself.

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   All right.  And at the end of those notes, which we went through

20     in the Brdjanin case, you, in fact, recorded your own feelings about what

21     you had seen during this inspection, and also in a letter to your father.

22        A.   That's correct.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, just for Your Honours' note, the

24     feelings he recorded are at the end of the typed version of his notes,

25     which is the document at tab 4, which has been given the provisional

Page 17715

 1     number of 3338B, and it's page 57 of those notes.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Please make a pause between question and answer

 3     for the interpretation.

 4             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... Oh, yes, I'm sorry.

 5        Q.   Right.  Can I ask you then, please, to look just briefly at a

 6     couple of your reports; in particular the one dealing -- where you met

 7     Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             MS. KORNER:  That has been given the number -- in e-court it's

 9     3606.  It's tab 9 of the documents, the 92 ter documents.

10        Q.   It's going to come up on the screen in front of you.

11             In this version, as you can see, the name of the interpreter has

12     been redacted.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, as this is going to be under seal, it

14     better not go out to the public.

15        Q.   In fact, if we look at it, the interpreter was one that had been

16     brought along by Mr. Radic; is that right, Mr. McLeod?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Now, this was headed -- it's -- the date of your report was the

19     23rd of August, but it dealt with a meeting on the 20th of August,

20     Banja Luka recce.  And we see in the first paragraph that the team had a

21     meeting with Mr. Radic, the mayor; Mr. Zupljanin, the Banja Luka chief of

22     police; and Colonel Vukelic, a representative of the 1st Krajina Corps.

23             Mr. -- perhaps can we with have a look, page 2 in English.

24     That's a great copy.

25             MS. KORNER:  You've got -- apparently if you do something -- if

Page 17716

 1     you press the button to the right hand -- no, not ring-tail.  At the top.

 2     That's it.  Thank you.

 3             And I think it's probably page 2 in the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   Mr. Radic says in -- speaks and, in the middle of the page, says:

 5             "Here we have opened all our PW camps."

 6             Does -- "PW," I take it, stands for prisoner of war?

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   "Until your head of mission can give us reports on our prisoner

 9     of war reports of people in the Green Berets and Ustasha camps, we will

10     not allow you total freedom here."

11             Was this a theme, Mr. McLeod, that ran through it, that --

12     that -- the insistence that there had to be investigation of what the

13     other side was doing?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   All right.  And then can we go, please, because it was a long

16     meeting, obviously, and a long report, to page 6 in the English.

17             MS. KORNER:  And I'm afraid I haven't the faintest idea where it

18     appears in the translation, where Mr. Zupljanin speaks.

19             Maybe the Defence can assist.

20             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's page 6 as well.

21             MS. KORNER:  Page 6, thank you.

22        Q.   And I'm not going to read through it again, Mr. McLeod.  18 years

23     on, outside what you recorded there, are you able to assist any further

24     with any impressions had you about Mr. Zupljanin?

25        A.   No, I don't think so.

Page 17717

 1        Q.   All right.  If you can just cast your mind back slightly, what

 2     appeared to be the relationship between Radic, Zupljanin, and Vukelic?

 3        A.   So, Radic was clearly the civilian and he was deferring to the

 4     military and the police in terms of security matters.  And it was clear

 5     that he was the main interlocutor that we had during the meetings.  But

 6     security was not within his -- within his control.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8             MS. KORNER:  And then if we go to the last page, please, of this

 9     report.

10        Q.   There you record your impression -- in fact, on the previous page

11     you started with Radic and then Zupljanin.

12             And, again, is there anything further that you can add after this

13     length of time to what you recorded there?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Yes, thank you.  That's that document.

16             I'd like you to have a look at one of the other documents,

17     please.

18             MS. KORNER:  Yes, page -- sorry.  3619, tab 21.

19        Q.   That's the follow-up, second visit you had in Banja Luka on the

20     24th of August.

21             On this occasion, the meeting was with Mr. Radic, and - we can

22     see in paragraph 1 - Mr. Bulic, representing the Banja Luka Police.

23             Did you understand at all what Mr. Bulic's position in the police

24     was?  Was that ever explained?

25        A.   If it was, I can't remember what it was.

Page 17718

 1        Q.   All right.  Going down to item 3 on that first page,

 2     conversations.  To begin with it's only Radic and his interpreter.  And

 3     you say that Mr. Radic made a strong opening attack.  "Did you get

 4     permission from the Bosanska Krajina government to arrange this visit?

 5     If not, why not?"

 6             Did you know what he was referring to by "the Bosanska Krajina

 7     government"?

 8        A.   Yes, they had established a government, and what they were trying

 9     to do was to get us to recognise that government as an independent

10     government and, therefore, state.  And that was impossible at that point.

11        Q.   Right.  And then there's a reference at the bottom to the London

12     talks.

13             MS. KORNER:  Now can we go, please, to the seventh page in

14     English, and I hope it's the same page in B/C/S.  Mr. Radic again.

15        Q.   You -- was it you, actually -- I mean, I know there were other

16     people with you, but it -- was it you asking the questions? because we

17     see in the middle of that page Mr. Radic was then asked if there had been

18     many examples of attacks in Bosanska Krajina against Croats or Muslims.

19             Was it you that asked that or someone else?

20        A.   I suspect that was somebody else.

21        Q.   Right.  And I haven't asked you that now, but can you tell us,

22     because I don't think you record in your report who else was there, who

23     else was with you on that occasion?

24        A.   That would have been another English monitor called

25     Barney Mayhew.

Page 17719

 1        Q.   All right.  And then he'd in fact been in the ECMM since 1991?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So he was more familiar with the area than you were.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And Mr. Radic says there were not individual acts but that the

 6     war:

 7             "... unfortunately, from all three sides there were incidents,

 8     ugly ones, but not in the Banja Luka opstina.  And then he gives a

 9     description of the killings, and talks about the regular military forces

10     who are under strict control of their commanders but also those who just

11     put on the uniforms, procure somehow the arms, and they do not decide,

12     differentiate, who to mistreat.  We are arresting them by the military

13     and police, because by international convention men wearing uniforms and

14     carrying arms are treated as prisoner of war.  In war it's easy to get

15     both, but we will clean them out in Banja Luka and also in other cities."

16             And then over the page you record your comment.  You say:

17             "This strikes me as a formula for not according prisoner of war

18     status to any group of men whom it is more convenient to treat as

19     criminals."

20             Could you just explain to the Trial Chamber what exactly you

21     meant by that comment.

22        A.   It struck me that what they were saying was that at this time in

23     this place there were a lot of people who may or not may not have been

24     regular soldiers but who might have been wearing uniform and might have

25     been armed who were doing things out of control, and they were trying to

Page 17720

 1     round them up.  But he appeared to me at that point to be describing a

 2     scenario whereby anybody wearing a uniform and carrying a gun could

 3     actually be defined as somebody who is not a regular soldier and

 4     therefore a criminal.

 5        Q.   Right.  With what end in mind?  That's what I think I'd like to

 6     establish.

 7        A.   I -- I -- the inference being that if somebody was criminal, they

 8     didn't have to be treated with the rights of the Geneva Conventions in

 9     terms how you look after prisoners.

10        Q.   All right.  Yes.  Thank you.  That's all I want to ask you about

11     that document.

12             And then the final one of your -- the reports, please, to look

13     at, before we turn to the OS -- CSCE report, is document 3619 -- oh, I've

14     done that, sorry.  Yes.  All right.

15             MS. KORNER:  3614 at tab 17.  I'm afraid they haven't been put

16     together in a chronological order.  And this is the mission to -- the

17     part of the inspection in the Prijedor report on the 3rd of September.

18        Q.   You set out that this meeting -- was -- this is part of a mission

19     from the 30th to 31st of August, and as you explain, you escorted the

20     CSCE mission group to Banja Luka with the aim of visiting prison camps.

21     You explain how you had a meeting in Gradiska.  And then talk about

22     the -- Prijedor.  And you there met Dr. Stakic, the mayor, paragraph 2.

23     And, in addition to that, Mr. Kovacevic, who was also there, and we can

24     see his interventions at page 3.

25             However, I just want to ask you about, please, because you dealt

Page 17721

 1     with this in your testimony, the conclusions that you came to, which is

 2     page 5.

 3             First of all, your general impressions:

 4             "The version of events that led to the opening of Trnopolje that

 5     we were given by the mayor was in stark contrast to that given by the

 6     people we spoke to in the camp."

 7             Now, the report was written on the 3rd of September.  Did you go

 8     to the camp after you'd had the meeting with Stakic or before?

 9        A.   We met Stakic and then we went to the camp.

10        Q.   Right.

11             "Conclusion.  The authorities insist that they are acting in the

12     best interests of all the people in their area, that they have no desire

13     to get rid of the Muslim population.  However, this just does not match

14     what they are actually doing.  And against this background, it is very

15     hard to draw conclusions based on what is said.

16             "The conclusion to be drawn from what we have seen is that the

17     Muslim population is not wanted and is being systemically kicked out by

18     whatever method is available."

19             Was that conclusion based just on your visit with the

20     CSCE mission or altogether on your experience since you had joined in

21     July of 1992?

22        A.   That was the conclusion that I had reached by that point in terms

23     of my experience of working in the theatre over the previous couple of

24     months.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  That's all I want to ask you

Page 17722

 1     about that.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm going to move on to the actual

 3     report that was produced, which will be, apart from the photographs, the

 4     last topic I'm going to ask about.  Perhaps that might be a convenient

 5     time.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner.

 7             The -- having regard to what we know in terms of what counsel

 8     will spend with this witness, the Chamber would wish to take advantage of

 9     the breaks to do such work on the several matters raised as it could.  So

10     the two breaks that we take today will be of 30 minutes' duration.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I can just -- if I can just explain to

12     Mr. McLeod that he will be finished today so that he knows.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours.

18             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Yes.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours invited us to give our position on

20     Videolink ST-223.  Well, we haven't received the medical information and

21     all that, but accepting what Ms. Pidwell told us about the -- the -- the

22     witness condition, overall condition, we accept that he be called by

23     video -- he testifies over videolink.

24             However, Your Honours, the problem might be the documents.

25     Because according to the situation as it stands now, we're supposed to

Page 17723

 1     give the documents for the other witness that is on the videolink by

 2     Friday this week.  And we will not be able to provide the documents to

 3     the Registry for this other witness, due to this late notice.

 4             So, therefore, we would request that we be given time until

 5     Monday next week to provide the -- the -- our documents for

 6     cross-examination to the Registry.  And we believe that -- that -- there

 7     is a sufficient time, because if we file -- if we give the documents on

 8     Monday, then the Registry will be able to organise the travel on Tuesday,

 9     because the videolink is on Wednesday, so ...

10             That is -- that is the situation.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Well, I think that the Prosecution

13     appreciates that the medical certificate is a condition precedent to the

14     Chamber agreeing to this, otherwise, practical suggestion.  But the --

15     Mr. Zecevic's time-frame, will -- as he says, that would work.

16             Do you agree, Ms. Korner?

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, yes.  But we won't -- I'm told

18     there's -- we won't be able to get the medical certificate this week.  I

19     mean, as I understand it.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Is it forthcoming?  As long as it --

21             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes.

22             JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... as long as we get an

23     undertaking that it's forthcoming.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes, there will be -- yes, yes.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 17724

 1             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm helpfully assisted by Ms. Pidwell.

 4     The medical certificate won't say he can't travel; it will simply say

 5     he's sick.  So from that point of view, that's what it's going to say.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, could we have the witness back to the stand, please.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   Mr. McLeod, I now want to look with you at the actual full report

13     that was done by CSCE as a result of this mission, which has already been

14     exhibited as P1599.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, this is -- was -- is not a document

16     that needs to be under seal -- or not shown.

17        Q.   Now, just so that we make it clear, Mr. McLeod, I don't think you

18     had any hand in actual writing this report nor saw it when it was

19     published?

20        A.   No, that's correct.

21        Q.   However, you've had a chance to go through it, and I want to deal

22     with the parts that you are able to assist on, in that they certain seem

23     to be based on what you and the other members of the mission that you

24     were with saw.

25             Can I start by looking at -- we'll skip the -- well, perhaps we

Page 17725

 1     look, first of all, at page 3 in English.

 2             MS. KORNER:  And I'm afraid, Your Honours, I can't assist with

 3     B/C/S.  Hopefully they're all about the same pages, but ...

 4             Oh, sorry, it's not page 3.  That's not the one I want.  It's --

 5     sorry.  It's either -- one, two, three, four - page 5.  Sorry.  Page 3 of

 6     the actual report.

 7             If we're know showing the right page in B/C/S, perhaps the

 8     Defence would be kind enough to let us know.

 9        Q.   I simply want to look, briefly, at method of work.  First

10     paragraph.  And then we see:

11             "The northern group, chaired by Sir John Thomson, was given the

12     task of investigating locations in northern Bosnia, also from west to

13     east, including Sarajevo."

14             And that's the group that you were with.  Is that right,

15     Mr. McLeod?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   All right.  Did you actually accompany them when they went to

18     Sarajevo, or were you just for the northern part?

19        A.   I didn't go to Sarajevo.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MS. KORNER:  Then can we go, please, straight away to the ninth

22     page in English.  And can we look at the paragraph that begins:  "Lack of

23     respect for civilian population."

24        Q.   "The mission determined that a complete range of individuals,

25     both male and females, young and old, are now being held throughout

Page 17726

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina in various places of detention.  We met with prisoners

 2     as young as 17, or even less, and as old as 83.  The crucial point is

 3     that thousands are being held against their will or under conditions

 4     which make their departure from the places of their confinement virtually

 5     impossible."

 6             Mr. McLeod, does that paragraph accord with your impressions from

 7     the places that you visited?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Then there is the categorisation of the prisoners.

10             MS. KORNER:  And can we go to the next page in English, and I

11     hope -- I think it's probably the next page in B/C/S.

12        Q.   And Category C:

13             "... people who were taken prisoner because they lived or worked

14     in the zone of combat ... not taking part in hostilities but were seen as

15     enemies due to their ethnic origin.

16             "Their civilian (non-combatant) status should have protected them

17     from detention.  This category was easily the largest.

18              "Our experience suggests that a comparatively small percentage

19     of prisoners are genuine POWs.  The remainder should never have been

20     imprisoned.  We are not impressed by claims that they were incarcerated

21     for their own safety or simply because they happened to be resident in a

22     combat zone.  It's impossible to escape the conclusion that most

23     prisoners are innocent people who have been seized as hostages to promote

24     ethnic cleansing.  They are pawns in vicious games played by nationalist

25     politicians.  These innocent people should be released forthwith."

Page 17727

 1             That claim, Mr. McLeod, that they were being incarcerated for

 2     their own safety, was that one that you heard being made personally?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And what conclusion did you come to?  As it was -- as is stated

 5     in this report, or a different conclusion?

 6        A.   I think it was quite clear that people had been removed from

 7     their houses and put into the various camps, not for their own safety but

 8     as a -- part of the process of getting rid of them.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MS. KORNER:  Can we go, then, please, to the next page.

11        Q.   "All authorities told us that the prisoners they held were

12     legitimate prisoners of war.  Serb authorities also insisted ... they had

13     the right to hold individuals taken in the area of the conflict ..."

14             And then it deals with what international legal experts said.

15             "Moreover, in our discussions with hundreds of detainees in Serb,

16     Muslim, and Croat places of detention, we found an appalling number of

17     individuals who we believe are, in fact, civilians with little, if any,

18     direct connection with the conflict."

19             Now, first, did you actually yourself see any of the Muslim or

20     Croat places of detention?

21        A.   Not during this mission, no.

22        Q.   All right.  And it goes on to repeat that:

23             "We are very disturbed by the assertions from the parties that

24     many of the people they hold under these severe conditions are being held

25     for their own protection.  Serb authorities in Prijedor, for example,

Page 17728

 1     insisted that they were protecting the Muslims from Muslim extremists who

 2     were fighting a guerrilla campaign from the former partisan stronghold of

 3     the" -- Kozarac -- it says "Gorazde," but I think that should be Kozarac

 4     "... mountain."

 5             Again, was that something you heard them say in Prijedor?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Then, further down the page, the responsibility of leaders.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can I be told whether we're on the right page in

 9     B/C/S?  I think probably not.  No.  Is that the right page?  That's

10     right.  Yep.  Thank you.

11        Q.   The responsibility of leaders.

12             "Despite the existence of warlords, the bulk of the evidence

13     points to the responsibility of acknowledged leaders.  The Mission

14     believes that, in general, leaders exercise effective control over their

15     military and civilian structures.  Contrary to what is usually accepted,

16     the so-called uncontrolled elements are marginal.  They exist, but their

17     importance has been exaggerated by various leaders who find them a

18     convenient explanation for numerous barbarities.  The mission have seen

19     camps, well organised, with military personnel or policemen doing what

20     they were told to do."

21             In one of the earlier reports, Mr. McLeod, we looked at, we dealt

22     with your view of what was being said to you by Mr. Radic about how by

23     classing people as criminals they were able to avoid the conventions

24     which applied to prisoners of war.

25             This paragraph here, does that, again, accord with your

Page 17729

 1     impression of what was happening?

 2        A.   I think in practice the conclusion that I had reached after what

 3     Mr. Radic had said the first time, without having seen the camps, was

 4     that they were trying to twist things in one direction.  Having seen the

 5     camps, my conclusion would actually be the opposite.  They were trying to

 6     twist things in the other direction and therefore saying that a whole

 7     bunch of people who had nothing to do with the military were prisoners

 8     and they were holding them all as prisoners of war.  And ... again it --

 9     what they were saying was actually not what we were seeing in reality.

10        Q.   All right.  From your dealings with all the various parts of --

11     of the structures, as it were - the civilian, military, and police - did

12     you conclude that the leaders did, in fact, control what was happening?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Then, can we go, please --

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. McLeod, could you specify your answer a bit.

16     On what basis do you reach this conclusion?

17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, if we wanted to visit, then we had to

18     have permission, and permission came from high up within the regional

19     government.  And you had to have a permission and a stamp or a fax, and

20     so permissions were sent by fax.  But this was something which -- and you

21     can see the interchange that we had where they were trying to persuade us

22     to acknowledge the fact that it was their government who was authorising

23     us to be there.  So they had -- they had a structure, they had a

24     government, they were trying to gain international recognition for the

25     government, and it was clear that the structures that sat below that were

Page 17730

 1     then able to take us to the camps and were in control of the camps.  And

 2     if you have five and a half thousand men in two camps, which you're taken

 3     to see by those who are acting on behalf of the people you've given your

 4     authority and you can see an order trail which takes you back to those

 5     people as being those who are in charge, then I think it's fairly clear

 6     that you've got a structure which is in control and has the ability to

 7     detain five and a half thousand people at their will.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes, can we go to the next page, please.  At the

10     bottom we can see the open centre at Trnopolje.

11             "We would like to call the chairman's attention to the Trnopolje

12     so-called open centre in the Serb-conquered area around Prijedor.  This

13     dismal location no longer has barbed wire surrounding it, and Serb

14     officials insisted that the inmates were free to come and go as they

15     pleased.  Our interviews with the persons within that facility produced a

16     vastly different perspective.  Most of the 2.000 or so Muslims were

17     civilians driven from their homes in the region by the" [sic] "Serb

18     forces.  Their residences have been burned, bombed, or occupied by

19     immigrant Serb families, leaving them no local place to go to, should

20     they wish to do so.  Numbers of detainees who have left the camp have

21     never returned.  And when night-falls, the level of personal security

22     reportedly drops precipitously.  We discussed this situation with

23     controlling political authorities and, as a result, have developed a plan

24     of action which is set out in part 2."

25             Mr. McLeod, you went to Trnopolje; does this part of your report

Page 17731

 1     accord with your experience?

 2        A.   Yes, it does.

 3        Q.   "Treatment of prisoners by authorities.  With very few

 4     exceptions, camp authorities have little sympathy for the detainees.  We

 5     witnessed the results of beatings, wounds, fractures, and other injuries

 6     in camps controlled by the" [sic] "Serbian, Muslim, and Croatian

 7     authorities and have reason to believe that innocent prisoners on all

 8     sides have been executed.  The prisoners interviewed are reluctant in

 9     most cases to provide specific detail concerning atrocities, but many

10     provided hints.  We conclude that some camp authorities have treated the

11     detainees with relative fairness, given the current circumstances,

12     whilst" [sic] "others have been clearly abusive, or at least have

13     tolerated mistreatment of detainees."

14             Now, on this occasion, for this mission, you told us you didn't

15     go to the Muslim and Croatian camps, but from the camps that you visited,

16     Manjaca and Trnopolje, did you yourself see signs of injury to any of the

17     prisoners?

18        A.   Yes.  I certainly went into the medical centre in Manjaca and saw

19     a number of men in there who had various injuries.  I don't know what

20     caused them, and they weren't telling, but some of them were fairly

21     horrific.

22        Q.   And that's the next point I want to ask you about.  It's already

23     contained in the reports which we haven't gone through today but a part

24     of your testimony.

25             Were the people that you spoke to reluctant to discuss what had

Page 17732

 1     happened to them, as is stated here?

 2        A.   Yes.  So I -- I speak German and I was able to try and -- and

 3     make opportunities to go and talk to some of the men away from the

 4     minders who were with us.  And on each occasion that I started a

 5     conversation, somebody, a camp guard or a minder, would then come and

 6     join in fairly quickly to listen to what was going on.  But in those

 7     brief snatches of conversation, it was quite clear that they were

 8     interested to see people from the international community; they wanted to

 9     know how long they would be there; they were very reluctant to talk about

10     what was going on and the conditions; and they certainly didn't want to

11     talk about their conditions as soon as somebody was listening to the

12     conversation.  And I had a couple of conversations in Manjaca and a

13     couple of conversation in Trnopolje, and each followed the same basic

14     theme.  They were quite clear that they were not combatants.  They were

15     quite clear that they had been taken against their will and had no idea

16     how long they were going to be kept there.

17        Q.   Can we go, then, please, to the next page because there's a brief

18     description of what was seen at Manjaca.  Under the heading: "Health of

19     Prisoners."

20             "Whilst many civilians in BH are said to be short of nutritious

21     food, there can be no doubt that a majority of prisoners are more

22     seriously deprived.  In Manjaca, most prisoners exhibit signs of very

23     serious malnourishment, including" - how do you pronounce that

24     one - "cachexia, hair loss ... and muscle wasting."

25             And then it goes on to say they admit to a weight loss of between

Page 17733

 1     ten and 40 kilograms during the two months of detention there, and in

 2     other notorious centres such as the camp at Omarska which the prisoners

 3     believe is now closed.

 4             Again, was that something you witnessed personally, Mr. McLeod?

 5        A.   Yes.  While I'm -- I have no medical training, so I couldn't

 6     comment on the medical diagnoses.  But certainly the guys that I saw with

 7     them.

 8        Q.   And then at the bottom of that page and onto the next page:

 9             "It is not too strong to say that the vast majority of prisoners

10     are living in fear, and some in terror, of their lives.  This is

11     reflected in their behaviour.  They react immediately to commands to

12     stand, sit, proceed to the eating places, and in many instances walk like

13     humbled or degraded persons, with stooped shoulders and their hands

14     behind their back.  This was particularly evident in Manjaca and Konjic.

15     Previous mistreatment by authorities has undoubtedly broken the spirits

16     of many prisoners.  Mental scars are likely to persist for a long time to

17     come."

18             Obviously you're not qualified to deal with that.  But when you

19     were at Manjaca, did you see behaviour as is described in this report?

20        A.   Absolutely.

21        Q.   Then medical services.  Again it deals with Manjaca in the

22     middle:

23             "The hospital ward at Manjaca is completely unacceptable, with

24     the ill and injured accommodated on the floor of a small former stable,

25     with only a single blanket each for their comfort."

Page 17734

 1             You told us you went in there.  Is that what you saw?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  Yes.  And then I think, the rest of the report,

 4     there's a further long description of what was seen in each camp, and I

 5     needn't trouble you with that.

 6             Yes, thank you, Mr. McLeod.  That all I ask you about this

 7     report.

 8             Finally, can we just go through the photographs that you

 9     produced, which ...

10             MS. KORNER:  All right.  The first photograph that I would like

11     to have up is 3601, which is at tab 6.  Slightly out of order, I know,

12     but that's the way they've been bundled.

13        Q.   Can you just explain to the Trial Chamber, Mr. McLeod, what that

14     photograph shows.

15        A.   Certainly.  So on -- on the 23rd of July, 1992, I was working in

16     Karlovac, which is a town in Croatia on the border with the unprotected

17     area, and this photograph depicts the crossing point in a village called

18     Turanj.  And we had been told that on that day a number of people might

19     be crossing out of northern Bosnia into Croatia, and so we went to the

20     crossing point to observe.  And this photograph, which was taken at some

21     point during the morning, shows an ECMM monitor and our interpreter.  And

22     you can see in the background a car being driven by people who are

23     leaving.  And there was a constant stream of vehicles during the day.

24     And then during the night there was a constant stream of people who were

25     being bused up to the Serb side of the crossing point and then told to

Page 17735

 1     get out of the buses because the Serbs wouldn't let their buses drive

 2     over into Croatia.  And UNHCR had some very large trucks which they then

 3     drove across and put people into the trucks and drove them into Karlovac.

 4     And this went on all night.  And our estimate was that about 9.000, but

 5     very, very hard to tell, crossed over in that one day.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Next, can we go, please --

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just one small point of clarification.

 8             I take it that the three soldiers we see are UN peacekeepers

 9     or ...

10             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, Your Honour, yes.

11             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... could we next have up,

12     please, 3607.

13        Q.   Could you tell the Court what that depicts, please, Mr. McLeod.

14        A.   Certainly.  So this and the -- the - well, I have a number; I

15     don't know how many you'll see - a series of photographs I took through

16     the windscreen of my vehicle as we were driving back, having been to

17     Manjaca and Prijedor.  So this is on the road from Prijedor back towards

18     Banja Luka on the 31st of August.  And this -- this is just typical of

19     what the houses looked like.  And what you can see there are houses that

20     have been burnt.  So the roofs have been burnt off.  They're not -- this

21     is not half-built construction; this is somebody's house that has been

22     damaged to the point where it is difficult to go back again.

23             MS. KORNER:  Can we then look at the next in this series, at

24     3608.

25        Q.   Is that the same road?

Page 17736

 1        A.   Yes.  This -- this -- I think what we have now is a series of

 2     photographs that I took as we were driving along the road.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MS. KORNER:  3609.

 5        Q.   So, same road; is that right?

 6        A.   That -- that's right.  And, again, I'm not sure how clearly you

 7     can see it on the screen, but you can see the smoke damage above the

 8     windows and --

 9             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... actually can we --

10             THE WITNESS: -- the roof is gone.

11             MS. KORNER:  Can we zoom in on it.  Because I think you've got

12     your originals in front of you.  Yep.  Yes.

13             3610.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is there any indication of who lived in these

15     houses?  I mean, were they Serb or were they Muslim or Croat communities?

16             THE WITNESS:  I think, Your Honour, this had been -- this had

17     been an area in which the people whom we'd meant in Trnopolje and Manjaca

18     had previous lived.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

20             MS. KORNER:

21        Q.   [Microphone not activated] You say it's on the road

22     Banja Luka-Prijedor -- you say it's on the road Banja Luka-Prijedor,

23     Prijedor to Banja Luka.  Are you able to give a rough indication of what

24     the nearest village was?  No.

25        A.   Not at this stage.  I could take out a map and guess.  But it

Page 17737

 1     would be a guess.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... yes, again that's 3610

 4     -- 3610.  And I think the last in this sequence is 3611.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I mean, there, Mr. McLeod, we see an example of there's

 6     one house which has obviously been destroyed surrounded by two that

 7     haven't.  Is that right?

 8        A.   Umm, I think --

 9        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... or is that --

10        A.   I -- I think what you can see there is the small house on the

11     left looks as if it's still being occupied, and the two houses to the

12     right have pretty clearly been destroyed.

13        Q.   From any inquiries you made and any of the conversation you had,

14     do you know why one house was left standing and two are destroyed or

15     semi-destroyed?

16        A.   In this particular instance, I have no idea.  But what was quite

17     typical was to find that houses belonging to the ethnic group in the area

18     in which one was at any particular time would have people living in them

19     and their neighbour's house would be blown up, if the neighbour happened

20     to come from the wrong ethnic group.  And that was a pattern which one

21     saw as much in Croatia as one saw in Serb-controlled parts of northern

22     Bosnia, for example.

23        Q.   All right.  And just so the Court understands - I don't think I

24     dealt with this with you because it's not relevant to this particular

25     case - you weren't just in this area of Bosnia; you were in a number of

Page 17738

 1     other areas of the former Yugoslavia, is that right, throughout your

 2     period?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Yep.  And I think the final photograph I'd like to ask you about

 5     is, please, 3617, which is at divider 19.

 6        A.   Yes.  So what you can see there, and, again, it's less clear on

 7     the screen than it is in the originals that I have in front of me, but a

 8     group of men carrying their possessions in -- in plastic carrier bags,

 9     following an ICRC Land Cruiser.  So the white -- you can probably just

10     about make out on the screen the cover on the rear -- on the spare tire

11     of the back of the Land Cruiser and its brake light.  I took this

12     photograph on the 1st of October, 1992, and these are men who had been

13     taken under the control of the ICRC from Trnopolje and they're crossing

14     over into Croatia.  And, again, on this occasion, the buses which the

15     Serbs had provided to take them from Trnopolje stopped on the Serb side

16     of the line at Turanj, and then we simply walked, through no-man's land,

17     down through the village to the Croatian side and then the ICRC had

18     arranged buses on the other side.  Yes.

19        Q.   Yes, thank you.

20             Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod, that's all you're asked.

21             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honour, subject to cross-examination, I

22     ask that the whole package be admitted.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

25             My name is Dragan Krgovic.  On behalf of the Stojan Zupljanin

Page 17739

 1     Defence, I'm going to ask you questions about your testimony given here

 2     today.

 3             Since my English is not as good as that of the other

 4     participants, I will speak Serbian, which will be simultaneously

 5     interpreted into English.  I will make an effort to speak more slowly so

 6     you can understand me better and the interpreters can interpret more

 7     easily.

 8             Let me come back to a part of your answer, sir, which you

 9     provided to a question asked by the Prosecutor about the second meeting

10     in Banja Luka when you spoke to Mr. Radic.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

12     shown Exhibit P841.2.  That's tab 21 in the Prosecution binder.

13             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, I'm told

14     it's 2D -- no.  3619.

15             Sorry, 65 ter.  Forget the 2D.  It's 3619, 65 ter number.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 7 on the

17     screen in both the English and Serbian language versions.

18        Q.   Here in this report you speak about incidents happening among the

19     members of other ethnicities.  As far as I understood, Mr. Radic, here,

20     speaks about murders, or incidents, committed by some persons in uniform.

21     And as you say, they somehow come by weapons and they are not picky about

22     the people who they mistreat.

23             These persons actually are Serbs who are dressed in various

24     uniforms and commit various crimes.  Is that correct?

25        A.   I would need to go back to be able to see what we said before

Page 17740

 1     that to understand the context.  I'm sorry, just a moment.

 2        Q.   Take a look at this comment of yours.  Mr. Radic was then asked

 3     if there had been many examples of attacks in Bosanska Krajina against

 4     Croats or Muslims.  It's on the same page.  It is marked as a comment.

 5     Obviously there was a question by a member of your team about crimes

 6     committed by Serbs against Croats or Muslims.  Correct?

 7             MS. KORNER:  I think the witness wants to be able to read the

 8     whole thing to put it in context before he answers Mr. Krgovic's

 9     question.

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So to answer the first part of the question,

11     what he's talking about at the top of the page relates to what he's heard

12     that is happening in Sarajevo, I believe.  I'm not ...

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Take a careful look at page 7, please.  The first comment:

15             [In English] "Mr. Radic was then asked if there had been many

16     examples of attack" [as interpreted] "in Bosanska Krajina against Croats

17     or Muslims?"

18        A.   Sorry, and then your second question related to the comment.  And

19     so, yes, that's what he said.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Here Mr. Radic was asked about crimes committed

21     against Muslims and Croats or, in other words, he was asked about attacks

22     committed in Bosanska Krajina.  Correct?

23             I saw you nod, but please say your answer, because otherwise it

24     can't be recorded.

25        A.   Certainly.  So, yes, at this point he is talking about what was

Page 17741

 1     going on in Bosanska Krajina.

 2        Q.   And then he says that there were such incidents, ugly ones, from

 3     all three sides but not in the Banja Luka municipality.

 4             And then he continues to say that there were 13 killings and even

 5     killings among Serbs.  Then two were Croats, one gypsy, and two others.

 6             And he continues to say:  When it comes to regular military

 7     forces, they are under the strict control of their commanders, but there

 8     are also those who just put on uniforms, procure somehow weapons, and do

 9     not differentiate who to mistreat.

10             This is basically the continuation of Radic's presentation, and

11     he speaks about people who commit such crimes.  Is that correct?

12        A.   That's what he's saying, yes.

13        Q.   Mr. Radic goes on to say:  We are arresting them with the

14     assistance of the military and the police, because under international

15     conventions [as interpreted] men wearing uniforms and carrying arms are

16     treated as prisoners of war.  In war, it is easy to procure both uniforms

17     and weapons, but we will cleanse Banja Luka and other cities of them.

18             Here Mr. Radic speaks about these very people who are outside the

19     chain of command, and he is saying what the Serbian authorities are doing

20     about that; right?

21        A.   Yes.  And I think if you then look at my comment on the next page

22     where I say that "this strikes me as a formula for not according prisoner

23     of war status to any group of men whom it is more convenient to treat as

24     criminals," that in practice what he was describing was a scenario

25     whereby you had Muslims who had got weapons and were wearing uniforms but

Page 17742

 1     who might not have been part of a military formation, as opposed to Serbs

 2     who were wearing uniforms and carrying weapons and were not under the

 3     control of the Serbian authorities.  And clearly I can't remember the

 4     conversation as it took place, but the fact that I wrote the comment that

 5     I wrote at that time would suggest that I understood that he was talking

 6     about the -- the -- the Bosnian Muslim extremists as opposed to Serbs.

 7     But, in practice, I can't remember the conversation now.

 8        Q.   And basically what you put down here does not at all mention

 9     Muslims or Croats or members of other ethnicities.  Mr. Radic, here,

10     speaks about Serbs who commit certain crimes and he says that they are

11     being arrested.  Correct?

12        A.   I -- I -- I can't remember, and so it would be foolish to try and

13     draw a conclusion other than looking at what I wrote down.

14        Q.   If I understood you correctly, based on what Mr. Radic said about

15     how they treat uniformed Serbs who commit crimes, you drew a conclusion

16     that the same could be applied to Muslims; correct?

17        A.   I -- I -- I wouldn't -- I wouldn't want to try and interpret it.

18     What I think he was saying - and I think the reason why I wrote the

19     comment that I wrote - is that I think he was setting out his stall in

20     terms saying this is how we deal with people, and therefore he -- I --

21     what I -- what I guess I understood at the time, based on the report that

22     I wrote, is that he was describing a scenario in which he had an excuse

23     -- he.  The authorities had an excuse for picking up Bosnians, Muslims,

24     whom they wanted to ...

25        Q.   Please take a careful look at this part where you noted Radic's

Page 17743

 1     words.

 2             You will agree with me when I say that there's no mention made of

 3     members of other ethnicities here.  He is just saying that Muslims and

 4     Croats are being mistreated and harassed and about the treatment the Serb

 5     authorities afford to these people.  Isn't that right?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The translation is

 7     bad.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Well, here in this section you will agree with me that Mr. Radic

11     speaks about the way the Serb authorities treat Serbs who commit certain

12     crimes or harassment of Muslims and Croats; correct?

13        A.   Yes.  He was asked if there's been examples of attacks against

14     Croats or Muslims, and so in -- yes.  In that context, he is then saying

15     that there had been incidents on all three sides, but not in Banja Luka.

16        Q.   And you will agree with me when I say that no mention is made

17     here of any actions taken against Muslims and Croats, but, on the

18     contrary, he was promising you that he would cleanse Banja Luka and other

19     towns where there are people who commit such crimes against Croats and

20     Muslims and that these people will be arrested; isn't that correct?

21             If you look at the last paragraph of Radic's words as related by

22     you, that's basically the meaning, isn't it?

23        A.   Yes.  And -- and then, as I said earlier on, I also wrote a

24     comment at the time, and because I wrote that comment, I'm assuming that

25     actually I thought there was something else going on in what he was

Page 17744

 1     saying.  But at 18 years' distance, we're stuck with the words that I've

 2     got written down in my report as opposed to my actual memory of the

 3     conversation.

 4        Q.   Your impression was, when you were visiting Manjaca, that the

 5     Serb authorities -- or, rather, the military authorities you had an

 6     opportunity to speak to at Manjaca, that they considered that all persons

 7     detained at Manjaca were prisoners of war; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And that, according to you, they strove to widen the circle of

10     persons to be considered prisoners of war, even beyond the standards that

11     you were familiar with; correct?

12        A.   They described all the people that they were holding at Manjaca

13     as prisoners of war.  And my understanding of someone who is a prisoner

14     of war is somebody who has been engaged in combat and is wearing a

15     uniform and carrying a weapon, as opposed to someone who is a civilian

16     who happens to be living in a combat zone.  And the impression that I

17     formed was that most, if not all, of the people that we saw were not

18     wearing uniform and claimed not to have been combatants.

19        Q.   And you will agree with me when I say that at the time there was

20     a dilemma that one had to face on the occasion of each exchange of

21     prisoners in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that the war that went on there

22     was -- were very from any organised combat with -- between uniformed

23     armies that are controlled by the respective governments and honour the

24     rules of war.  Isn't that right?

25        A.   I'm sorry, are you suggesting that --

Page 17745

 1        Q.   I apologise.  One part of my question was badly interpreted.

 2             That there was a dilemma the representatives of the international

 3     community in Bosnia faced when making an honest assessment of the type of

 4     prisoners that you encountered, that the war waged there was far from any

 5     organised combat between uniformed armies serving recognised governments

 6     and honouring the rules of war.  Isn't that correct?

 7        A.   No.  I -- I think it was quite clear, and not just in northern

 8     Bosnia but in -- in -- in each of the various areas where I worked, that

 9     there were political and military structures in place.  And under those

10     political and military structures, you had police, both military and

11     civilian police, and it was quite clear that those structures were

12     working on behalf of the direction provided by the politicians and

13     interpreted by the military and political -- and police commanders.  And

14     so you could see regular army units and police units and so on which

15     clearly had a structure and a hierarchy.  And then you could also see, in

16     each area, that there were civilians who were caught up in -- in the mess

17     and -- and so you -- you could see Serbian civilians in

18     Croatian-controlled areas, for example.  As well as seeing Bosnian or

19     Croatian civilians in Serbia-controlled areas who were clearly not

20     combatants but who were being pushed around by those in uniform.

21             So, I'm sorry, I disagree with your statement.

22        Q.   And furthermore, you are aware that neither age nor gender were

23     an obstacle to participating in the civil war that was being waged then

24     in Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

25        A.   I don't see that age or gender is a -- is a barrier to taking

Page 17746

 1     part in warfare in various different places.  However, I didn't see any

 2     evidence of very young people -- I can't remember seeing examples of

 3     women carrying weapons across any of the parties, particularly.

 4             No, so -- so -- by and large not, no.  Sorry.

 5        Q.   And you will agree with me when I say that there are, or that

 6     there were, various kinds of uniformed armed groups and individuals who

 7     participated in this conflict; correct?

 8        A.   Quite clearly on -- on -- on -- actually, on all three -- on all

 9     three sides, yes.

10        Q.   And some of these groups are the product of those who we can

11     consider only local warlords; others are sort of civil protection; and

12     others, again, are the armed wing of a right-wing political party.  And

13     then individuals were mobilized directly from their houses and fight in

14     civilian clothes.

15             Do you agree with this assessment of mine of the situation in

16     Bosnia?

17        A.   I probably agree with parts of it, and there are other parts were

18     I can't really comment, because I'm not in a position to agree or

19     disagree.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21     Exhibit P1599.

22             Could we please go to page 8 of this document.  It's page 8 in

23     the Serbian version, and I believe that's it's the previous page to this

24     in the English version.

25             I apologise.  It isn't this one.  It should be page 7 in English.

Page 17747

 1        Q.   Take a look at the last paragraph, please.  What I just put to

 2     you in the form of questions is the very content of the report shown to

 3     you by Ms. Korner, and you commented on these paragraphs with the

 4     Prosecutor.

 5             Please read these paragraphs carefully.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you agree with the assessment given in the last paragraph on

 9     page 8 in English?

10        A.   Yes.  And -- and so what I said in my -- in my response to you

11     was that there are bits of it where I'm quite clear, because of what I

12     saw, that this is correct.  And there are some bits where, because I

13     didn't actually see it with my own eyes, I can't agree with it.  I didn't

14     see people who had been mobilized in civilian clothes carrying weapons,

15     so I can appreciate that may have been going on, but I didn't see that.

16     But I'm certainly aware that there were groups on all three sides who

17     were acting not entirely within -- within the -- the normal command

18     structure, although, again, I suspect that at some level all of them

19     actually were under some degree of control.  But ...

20        Q.   But the crux of the matter is that these people whom you talked

21     to when you visited these detention centres were in -- civilians.  They

22     could easily have been members of these armed formations, only they

23     didn't have any fire-arms on them -- I apologise, they didn't wear any

24     uniforms.

25        A.   They may have been.  But then, again, they may not have been.

Page 17748

 1     And, I'm sorry, I don't know.  But the impression that I had formed was

 2     that they had not been.

 3        Q.   This is what you concluded on the basis of the answers that they

 4     gave to you, when you asked them about this?

 5        A.   Yes.  And some of them looked pretty old.

 6        Q.   And, of course, someone who had taken part in combat but is

 7     captured without uniform would deny having been involved in combat

 8     because they would like to gain freedom, and they would deny any

 9     participation whatsoever in any conflict.  Is that right?

10             Because the next question asked was when they were going to be

11     set free.

12        A.   I'm not quite sure where the question is in that.  I'm sorry.

13        Q.   Are you -- I'm asking you: Is it normal to expect that the people

14     who were captured and are keen to be set free to deny having been

15     involved in any conflict or carrying arms or fighting in any other way?

16        A.   Sure.  I guess -- I guess that, in terms of the

17     Geneva Conventions -- and this might be straying a little bit, but if

18     you're not in a uniform, then the assumption might be that you're a spy

19     and then you're treated quite differently, actually.  Historically, that

20     was certainly the case.

21        Q.   And, of course, you are well aware that according to the

22     Geneva Conventions the civilians are also afforded the status of POWs who

23     are assisting armed forces and who have certain links with military

24     units?

25        A.   I'm not an expert on the Geneva Conventions, I'm afraid.

Page 17749

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, are you referring to the concept

 2     known as "levée en masse"?

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Precisely so.  I

 4     was going to ask the witness if he is familiar with that concept.

 5        Q.   You heard the comment made by Judge Harhoff.  Are you familiar

 6     with this concept?

 7        A.   No.

 8             MS. KORNER:  I'm more interested in whether Mr. Krgovic is

 9     familiar.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.  I have prepared this,

11     but the next document that I intend to show was the Geneva Conventions.

12     However, since he said that was not an expert in the Geneva Conventions,

13     I'm going to stop this whole line of questioning.  But I do have a few

14     more questions on this topic.

15        Q.   Sir --

16             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ...

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Time for the break, okay.

18             JUDGE HALL:  So we return in 30 minutes.

19             MS. KORNER:  Are Your Honours taking half an hour on this break

20     as well?

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 17750

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm not going to ask you any more questions about the

 3     Geneva Conventions, in light of the answers that you had given.

 4             I am interested in another subject that you discussed with the

 5     Prosecutor, which is the issue of Trnopolje.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look now at page 21 of the

 7     document that are already have on the screen.  Let me just check whether

 8     the pages in both versions correspond.  And that's in Annex C.

 9        Q.   Sir, are you familiar that within the context of solving the

10     problem of Trnopolje there were certain proposals made by the

11     European Monitoring Mission and that it was decided -- or, rather,

12     concluded, that the individuals held at Trnopolje be evacuated to various

13     other locations?

14        A.   Right.  So the English version doesn't match the B/C/S version.

15             However, and I think that the --

16        Q.   Just a moment, please.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your indulgence, please.

18             That's page 23 in English.

19             THE WITNESS:  That's still not the right page.

20             We still don't have the right page, I'm afraid.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] ... page 25.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  25.  Okay.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  So these were recommendations being made by

24     the OSCE, or whatever it was in those days, as opposed to the ECMM.  So

25     these recommendations were made by the CSCE.

Page 17751

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And the photograph shown to you by the Prosecutor where one can

 3     see the jeep of the ICRC and the process of evacuation of inmates from

 4     Trnopolje was actually implementation of this memorandum, and the

 5     organiser was the International Committee of the Red Cross.  Is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   I don't know if it followed this report.  But chronologically it

 8     did.  And, yes, the evacuation was organised by the ICRC.

 9        Q.   Can you please look at the last sentence of the first paragraph,

10     which reads:

11             "Whatever their longer term hopes, no one wishes in present

12     circumstances to return to their homes in western Bosnia, because the

13     local administration cannot or will not guarantee their physical

14     security."

15             In your responses to the Prosecutor's questions, was said that

16     you heard from the Serbian sounds [as interpreted] that one of the

17     reasons for those people being at Trnopolje was because it was impossible

18     to guarantee their safety if they stayed at home.  Does that collate or

19     correspond to the impressions that you have after talking to the people

20     at Trnopolje?

21        A.   Yes.  So the Serbs in Prijedor explained that the people in

22     Trnopolje there were for their own protection.  So they were there to be

23     protected them from something, not quite clear what.  And the people whom

24     I spoke to in Trnopolje made it clear that it -- they couldn't go home

25     because it was not safe to go home.

Page 17752

 1             I think that what the Serbs in Prijedor were telling us didn't

 2     really stack up, didn't make sense, because, in practice, I think the

 3     people, the Serbs in Prijedor, were the people who were causing -- who

 4     were creating the scenario, the situation, in which it was impossible for

 5     these people to go home.  That was the impression that I formed.

 6        Q.   As you just said, there was another reason for their feeling

 7     unsafe, which was possible attacks on those people by the Serbs if they

 8     returned home from these centres; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   In contact with the authorities of the republic -- or of the

11     Krajina, did you discern that any measures had been taken for those

12     people to be guaranteed or provided safety once they are released from

13     the centres?

14             I just wanted to add that I was referring to local authorities as

15     well, in addition to the ones mentioned.

16        A.   No, I'm not aware that there were any -- I'm not sure I

17     understood the question, I'm sorry.  Just try one more time, please.

18        Q.   It was a lengthy question and part of it was not interpreted

19     correctly.

20             So, in your talks with the local people in Prijedor, or with the

21     people from the Autonomous Region of Krajina or the Government of

22     Republika Srpska, did you inquire whether it was possible for those

23     people to be guaranteed safety if they are released from these detention

24     centres where they were being kept?

25        A.   Um ... I'm not sure we asked the question exactly the way that

Page 17753

 1     you're asking me.  And so I -- I would have to go back to my -- my

 2     understanding of the fact that they were saying that the reason why

 3     people were in Trnopolje was for their own safety, and so, presumably,

 4     they felt that they could guarantee their safety if they were in

 5     Trnopolje but possibly not if they were elsewhere.  I can't remember

 6     somebody asking exactly the -- the question exactly the way that you've

 7     framed it, though.

 8        Q.   Can you please go back to page 13 of this report, Chapter 2,

 9     entitled: "Recommendations."

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 15 in the English.

11             Can we please have page 16 in English.

12        Q.   Can you look at sub-item (b), which reads:

13             "No prisoner should be released into a dangerous situation.

14     There must be adequate and supervised protection so that the prisoners

15     may go to any place within BH of their choice ..."

16             Now my question is: When you talked to Mayor Radic and you

17     mentioned the prisoners at Manjaca, did he tell you that a number of

18     people from Manjaca were released and that they were in Banja Luka at the

19     moment and that the Muslim body called Mehamet [phoen] provided

20     accommodation for them precisely because it was unsafe for those people

21     to go back to their homes where they had originally been captured?

22        A.   I can't remember.  But if that's in the report, then I'm quite

23     happy to go back to the report to look at it, if you'd like me to.

24        Q.   My next question is as follows: When you presented the assessment

25     of the impossibility of their return and unsafety, you were not aware of

Page 17754

 1     the efforts that Republika Srpska was making at the time to ensure that

 2     these people enjoy personal safety and protection once they return to

 3     their homes?

 4             MS. KORNER:  No, I'm sorry, I object to the form of that

 5     question.  "You are not aware of the efforts that Republika Srpska was

 6     making at the time to ensure these people enjoy personal safety"

 7     presupposes that that's what the evidence is.

 8             Mr. Krgovic can put any document that he wants to, or ask the

 9     question in -- in a different form.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was just a

11     prelude to my next question, and, in that respect, I would like the

12     witness to be shown Exhibit P607, please.

13        Q.   Sir, this is a letter from Stojan Zupljanin, whom you saw at the

14     meeting.  In this letter, he is writing to the local chiefs of police and

15     giving them an instruction or direction that had been issued by the

16     Ministry of the Interior and other bodies from the Serbian Republic with

17     relation to the closure of these centres.  And in paragraph 3, it says:

18             [In English] "There is some information that indicate that

19     isolated individuals might be attacked or threatened in some other way

20     after their return to their home areas.  Therefore, we call the attention

21     of SJB chiefs and other officials to their obligation to take appropriate

22     measures to protect these individuals, guard their houses and property,

23     and prevent any attempt in threatening or in any other way intimidating

24     these people."

25             [Interpretation] And in the last paragraph:

Page 17755

 1             [In English] "In co-operation with municipal bodies of the

 2     Red Cross organisation, humanitarian organisation" [sic] "and other

 3     bodies, it is necessary to provide food, accommodation, medical, and

 4     other forms of help to the above-mentioned returnees."

 5             [Interpretation] Sir, you certainly didn't inquire with your

 6     collocutors whether anything had been undertaken in that sense, and I

 7     suppose that you had never seen this document before?

 8        A.   No, I haven't seen this before.

 9        Q.   And when you talked with the officials, you did not ask them

10     whether any measures were undertaken to provide security for those

11     people; is that right?

12        A.   I can't remember whether that question was asked exactly the way

13     that you're asking it.  For what it's worth, the impression that I had

14     was that that was not what was going on.  There was a flow of people from

15     houses to places like Trnopolje and then out, as opposed to from

16     Trnopolje back to houses, because the houses that they had come from were

17     no longer habitable.  So that -- that was the overriding impression that

18     I formed.

19        Q.   And when you prepared your report and when you mentioned Kozarac

20     and took those photographs, you did not inquire about the conflicts in

21     Kozarac and whether the houses had been damaged during war operations.

22     You did not ask for information from the other side, i.e., from the

23     Serbs, but, rather, based your report on your conversations with the

24     Muslims.  Is that correct?

25        A.   Um ...

Page 17756

 1             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... which report?  I'm

 2     sorry, Your Honours, it's not clear.  Which report is Mr. Krgovic

 3     referring to?

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the three reports

 5     entered into evidence that pertain to his visit to Banja Luka.

 6        Q.   In those reports, when you drafted them, you did not ask the

 7     Serbian side about the conflicts in Kozarac or about how the houses were

 8     damaged; instead, you based -- your report only on your talks with the

 9     people at Manjaca and Trnopolje?

10        A.   I think it's fairly clear - I hope it's fairly clear - that the

11     first two reports are my visits to Banja Luka and then the reports that I

12     wrote about the visits to Manjaca and Trnopolje.  But in the two first

13     visits, I was trying to give a flavour, not a complete verbatim

14     transcript like this one, but a flavour for what it was that the people

15     we were meeting, the Serbs that we were meeting, in Banja Luka were

16     telling us; and so I was reflecting, as accurately as I could, a

17     snap-shot of what they were saying to us about the conditions that they

18     were facing.  And then I was drawing my conclusions based on what they

19     were saying and what I was observing, myself.

20             And similarly, having been to Manjaca and Trnopolje, again, I was

21     trying to capture as faithfully as I could what the Serbs were telling us

22     at Manjaca and Prijedor.  And, again, it wasn't a verbatim transcript of

23     the meetings, but it was my best effort.  And then, again, adding my

24     comments based on my understanding of what I was actually seeing, as well

25     as what I was being told.  I think - I would hope - that it's fairly

Page 17757

 1     clear that I was being as accurate as I could about how I was reflecting

 2     what the Serbs who were talking to me were describing events.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions for you.

 4             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  May I proceed?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

 6             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Okay.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. O'Sullivan:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.

10        Q.   If I understood your evidence correctly, you've told us that a

11     person who is in uniform carrying a weapon and involved in combat can be

12     detained as a prisoner of war.  Do we understand you correctly?

13        A.   Yes.  That would be -- that would be a shorthand way of

14     describing a -- a typical way of identifying a combatant.

15        Q.   All right.  What would your view be, if you have one, on a person

16     in civilian clothes who's armed and participating in combat?  Can that

17     person be legitimately detained?

18        A.   Depending on -- on -- on what they're doing and where they are,

19     then they're either a combatant or they're a criminal.  And, again,

20     you'll be aware of my experience in the army, working in Northern Ireland

21     where there were a group of people wearing civilian clothes and carrying

22     weapons and the British government was very careful to treat them as

23     criminals as opposed to combatants.  So I'm aware that you can dance on

24     pinheads around the issue, but yes.

25        Q.   All right.  And you would agree with me that in the theatre in

Page 17758

 1     Bosnia at the time, where you were, there were both uniformed and

 2     non-uniformed groups involved in combat; is that right?

 3        A.   I didn't actually see people who were not in uniform carrying

 4     weapons and in combat.  So I saw lots of people wearing lots of different

 5     type of uniform belonging to different organisations and units.  I didn't

 6     actually see people wearing civilian ... well, the one example that I can

 7     think of off the top of my head of somebody who was wearing civilian

 8     clothes and armed was a gentleman who'd come from the Ministry of Health

 9     in Pale when we visited Manjaca, but that's -- he was possibly an

10     exception.

11        Q.   Referring back to Exhibit P1599, sir, that's the CSCE mission

12     report for 24 August to 4 September 1992, the one we've been looking at.

13     You did not author that report, if I understood it correctly?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And on page 8 of that report we've shown you, at the last

16     paragraph on page 8, where there is mention of uniformed and

17     non-uniformed groups, individuals mobilized directly from their homes,

18     fighting in civilian clothes.

19             Would you have any reason to doubt that information in there?

20        A.   No.  And, again, it's worth noting that the report was written

21     describing the findings of the rapporteur mission across the whole area,

22     and they may well actually have seen more evidence than -- they may have

23     seen evidence of that, where I didn't.  In different places.

24        Q.   Would you accept that the people that you saw in detention when

25     you visited the centres, the camps, in civilian clothes may very well

Page 17759

 1     have been non-uniformed fighters who were in detention?

 2        A.   So, in Manjaca they may have been.  And, again, the very clear

 3     explanation that we've given for Trnopolje was that these were not

 4     soldiers, because they were people who were being kept there for their

 5     own protection; as opposed to being prisoner of war who were being held

 6     there because they were prisoners of war.  So it may well have been the

 7     case in Manjaca, but I don't think it was the case in Trnopolje.

 8        Q.   When you visited Manjaca, did you have the authority to attempt

 9     to establish whether or not these people were involved in combat?

10        A.   I'm not quite sure whether I needed authority to establish that.

11     I wasn't -- I was -- I was talking to them.  I'm not quite sure what your

12     question is after, I'm sorry.

13        Q.   I will be more specific.  Did you discuss with the -- those in

14     charge of detention, those in charge of facility, did you discuss with

15     them why the people were there or seek records showing why the people

16     were detained there?

17        A.   I think that my testimony probably already describes the long

18     explanation that we were given by the gentleman who was running the camp

19     as to how he was running it and why he was running it.  And I'm fairly

20     sure that we've probably also, in a separate Trial Chamber, rehearsed the

21     questions that John Thomson asked him.  At this stage, I can't -- without

22     looking back at the documentation, I can't actually remember how -- how

23     the conversation went.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. McLeod, could I just follow up on your last

Page 17760

 1     answer to -- to counsel.

 2             Because I guess that counsel's question to you was really whether

 3     you were told that the detainees at Manjaca were, in fact, POWs.  Do you

 4     recall whether you were given such information?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  And -- and I could refer back to

 6     my report, if that would help.  But we were given a very long explanation

 7     of how the Geneva Conventions were being applied to these individuals who

 8     were there as prisoner of war.  And that explanation was provided by the

 9     camp commandant.  So as far as he was concerned, he was holding prisoners

10     of war, and he was at pains to explain to us how he was applying the

11     Geneva Conventions correctly.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And were you given at that occasion or at any

13     later occasion any evidence to sustain or to support the characterisation

14     of the detainees as POWs?

15             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.  So -- so it -- and, again, I

16     would appreciate that people would find it quite hard to be able to show

17     us a chain of evidence that we captured somebody at this point and at

18     that time he was armed and involved in this conflict and then to show us

19     an evidence chain all the way through to an individual actually in

20     Manjaca.  So I appreciate it would be difficult to do that, but nobody

21     actually did that.  They simply said, These are men who are prisoner of

22     war whom we have captured and are now detaining.  And that explanation

23     didn't accord with the explanation that I was given by the people with

24     whom I spoke in Manjaca.

25             And, again, I appreciate that they may have been just making it

Page 17761

 1     all up, but that not the impression that I formed at the time.  It was

 2     very intense little conversations which dried up as soon as somebody got

 3     close enough to be able to listen to what was going on, at which point

 4     they didn't want to talk about anything.

 5             And the impression that I formed was not -- was that these --

 6     these looks like civilians.  Again, I don't know, and it's interesting

 7     that nobody has raised it, the extent to which all of these people

 8     probably carried out military service as conscripts in the JNA at some

 9     point before the conflict, and so I have no doubt that many of them at

10     some point would have been trained to use weapons.  Many of them may well

11     have been using weapons to defend their homes.  But the net product was

12     pretty clear as far as I was concerned.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Were you given any information about

14     the armed units to which the detainees were supposed to have belonged to?

15             THE WITNESS:  No.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did the commander provide you with any

17     information about who exactly the enemy was?

18             THE WITNESS:  I would understand, My Lord, that he was suggesting

19     that these people had been fighting against the regular Serb forces as

20     the Serb forces tried to protect the Serb population of, for example,

21     Prijedor, from the uprising being carried out by these people against

22     them.  That was the -- that was the logic that was being explained.  And

23     that didn't quite tie up with the version of events which other people

24     were describing in which the Serb forces, regular or otherwise, were

25     coming to people's house; taking them out; inviting the women and

Page 17762

 1     children to move in one direction, the men to move in another direction;

 2     incarcerating the men in one set of camps and women and children in

 3     another set camps; and then bit by bit allowing them to move into

 4     Croatia.  And I was involved, as you are aware, in monitoring the release

 5     by the ICRC of detainees from both Manjaca and Trnopolje which carried on

 6     over time the rest of that year and possibly into January.  I can't

 7     remember exactly when Manjaca was closed down eventually, but it was a

 8     while later.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So in your recollection the camp commander

10     depicted the detainees as being members of an armed uprising.  Is that

11     correctly understood?

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, would it be better, given that

13     Mr. McLeod's pointed out it's been 18 years, if we had his report on the

14     screen, which is part of the package.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let me hear the witness's answer.

16             THE WITNESS:  My Lord, I can't -- I can't remember whether it was

17     the commandant of Manjaca or the mayor or others we were talking to in

18     Prijedor who were characterising them exactly like that, but certainly

19     between those series of conversation which took place over the couple of

20     days, that was the -- that was the -- that was how they were trying to

21     portray what had happened.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

23             Back to you, Ms. Korner.

24             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we have up, please, on the screen a

25     document which is part of the 92 ter package, which is 10217.

Page 17763

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

 2        Q.   Which you've dealt with in your Brdjanin testimony, Mr. McLeod.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we have a tab number, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It's tab 22.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   If we look at the bottom of the first page of your report, which

 8     you've noted down also in your personal notes from which this report was

 9     taken:

10             "Colonel Popovic.  Welcome to this PW camp.  My name is

11     Colonel ... Popovic.  I am the commandant of this camp.  I want to stress

12     this is a PW camp and not a concentration camp."

13             And then started to refer to the Geneva Conventions.  And as I

14     think you pointed out, he appeared to have a prepared script.  Is that

15     right Mr. McLeod?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to the next page, please.

18        Q.   "There are around 3.640 prisoners of war in this camp."  And then

19     he goes back to the Geneva Convention articles.  "The people in the camp

20     have been caught in the zone of combat in accord with Article 4 of the

21     Geneva Conventions, numbers 1, 2," et cetera, et cetera.  Which specify

22     who can be a prisoner of war.

23             And then I think he went through what he was doing to comply, as

24     he put it, with the Geneva Conventions.

25             MS. KORNER:  And can we look at the next page, please.

Page 17764

 1        Q.   Paragraph 21:  "You are probably interested in the nationality of

 2     the prisoner of war."  There are 125 Croats, 3.4 per cent; Serbs 0.04;

 3     and Muslims, 96.5.

 4             And then there was a specific inquiry about a particular

 5     Canadian Croat, I think.

 6             Can we go to the next page, and this may deal with what

 7     Judge Harhoff was asking you about.  Paragraph 33.  Just above

 8     paragraph 33, the commandant was asked how the prisoners of war were

 9     actually taken, if they were actually fighting or carrying weapons."

10             And the response:

11             "There is an interrogation period.  Everyone is being

12     interrogated.  And if it is proven that he did not take part in the

13     fighting, he will be free."

14             Now the question, I don't know whether presumably but one of the

15     members of the commission rather than you, Mr. McLeod, was a direct one:

16     How were they taken?  Was that the only answer that he gave?

17        A.   That appears to the only answer that I wrote down.

18        Q.   Yeah.

19        A.   And then wrote up in the report.

20        Q.   Right.  And were you making notes at the time?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Yep.  And I think -- and perhaps we'd just better look at the

23     last page of this report.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I'm terribly sorry, but I note that

25     there might be a -- a wrong translation of this document.  Because that

Page 17765

 1     might make a confusion.  It's -- paragraph 33, can we have it back?

 2     Paragraph 33 in Serbian.

 3             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... sorry, it's an English

 4     report.  I'm reading from the English -- I don't know -- I'm sorry.

 5             I'm reading -- this is an English report written in English.  I

 6     don't know how it's been translated; I can't help that.  But if you say

 7     there's a mistake, Mr. Zecevic, then we can correct it.  But We're not

 8     going --

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.  I'm sorry, I mixed it up, I'm

10     sorry.

11             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we go back to the last page, please.

12             I agree it's unusual to have a report in English translated.

13        Q.   And there we get, as I already put to you, paragraph 36:

14             "The general impression.  Colonel Popovic was speaking from a

15     prepared script, quoted the Geneva Conventions by rote, ... he was very

16     sensitive on the subject what he did with prisoners who stepped out of

17     line, refusing to give any more explanation than ... they were dealt with

18     in accordance with the Geneva Conventions."

19             Just two other matters that arise from what you were asked, by

20     Mr. Krgovic largely.  Can I just go back to the part ... this was at

21     page 46.

22             Mr. Krgovic asked you a question about -- that the:

23             "... that the war waged ... was far from an" [sic] "organised

24     combat between uniformed armies serving recognised governments and

25     honouring the rules of war.  Isn't that correct?"

Page 17766

 1             And you said:

 2             "No.  I think it was quite clear, and not just in northern Bosnia

 3     but in each of the various areas where I worked, that there were

 4     political and military structures in place."

 5             I just want to clarify so that the Chamber understands your

 6     experience, Mr. McLeod:  For how long were you a monitor based in the

 7     former Yugoslavia for ECMM?

 8        A.   So I spent a year with ECMM.  I spent the following year working

 9     for the international conference working for Thorvald Stoltenberg's

10     deputies as a political advisor.  So I was there for two years in total.

11        Q.   And can you just give, again, the Trial Chamber a rough area - a

12     rough area -- a rough idea of which -- which areas you worked?

13        A.   So with ECMM I worked out of Zagreb, so in Croatia looking at

14     the -- the -- the issues between the Croatian government and the Krajina

15     Serbs, so in the UNPAs.  I went into northern Bosnia, and so -- met the

16     Serbs in northern Bosnian and went to Manjaca and Trnopolje.  And I also

17     worked in Central Bosnia and so saw what was happening between the Croats

18     and the Muslims in the Vitez-Zenica area.  And the second year was

19     negotiations between the Croatian government and the Krajina Serbs.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Last topic.  You were shown this document which was

21     dated the 21st of August.  Perhaps we better have it up again.

22             MS. KORNER:  P609.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  P607.

25             MS. KORNER:  Oh, 607.  Sorry.

Page 17767

 1        Q.   This purports to be a directive emanating from Mr. Zupljanin

 2     dated the 21st of August and referring back to an order issued by the

 3     Ministry of the Interior about giving protection to people who were then

 4     going to be released from these camps.

 5             You had a visit the day before when Mr. Zupljanin was present to

 6     Banja Luka.  Did he -- if he had mentioned to you that he was -- had

 7     issued such an order in respect of people who were going to be released,

 8     would that be something that you would have recorded?

 9        A.   Probably.

10        Q.   And you went back on the 24th of August when Mr. Bulic was

11     present for a short time.  If he had said to you, We, the police, are

12     going to be protecting anybody who's being released, is that something

13     you would have recorded?

14        A.   Again, probably.

15        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. McLeod.  Just one last question.

19             Do you recall whether the ECMM had made any determination as to

20     the nature of the armed conflicts at the time you were there?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  So there was clearly armed conflict going on

22     between the armies of Croatia and Bosanska Krajina, if you like.  And --

23     and that -- that -- that was quite clearly going on, and that carried on

24     intermittently for the next 18 months or so.  And there was an ethnic

25     cleansing going on, and ethnic cleansing was taking place particularly

Page 17768

 1     from northern Bosnia expelling Muslims and from Croatia expelling Serbs.

 2     And to an extent it was also taking place, but to a far less extent, from

 3     the -- the -- the Bosnian-controlled areas in Central Bosnia and Bihac

 4     and so on.  And ethnic cleansing was not an armed conflict; it was a

 5     one-way -- fundamentally, a one-way street on -- being carried out by --

 6     by particularly two of the parties and, to a limited extent, by the third

 7     party as well.

 8             So I would -- clearly there was -- there was a -- a fairly

 9     conventional war going on between different parties, and all of them

10     ended up fighting each other at different points in Bosnia.  And that had

11     characteristics which were pretty clear.  And you could talk to the

12     military commanders and invite them to stop and then organise a

13     cease-fire and then invite them to withdraw their troops and weaponry and

14     so on, and I was engaged in -- in inspecting Croatian tanks, for example,

15     that had been withdrawn from the contact line in Croatia to find out

16     where they were, and I wrote down the -- the numbers of the tanks, which

17     was quite amusing.  So -- so that type of warfare was going on, and then

18     there was ethnic cleansing, which was completely different.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If I understand you correctly, you're saying that

20     the armed conflict that took part between the Croatian forces and the

21     Serb forces was an international armed conflict; is that correct?

22        A.   Between -- well, at the time, to call it an international armed

23     conflict would have been a -- quite a difficult thing to do from some

24     government's point of view, because they didn't want to recognise some of

25     the people who were taking part in the armed conflict as nations.  And so

Page 17769

 1     the people in Bosanska Krajina would have argued very strongly that they

 2     were a nation, and so their conflict with Croatia was an international

 3     conflict.  The people within the -- the -- the -- and, again,

 4     Bosanska Krajina, which stretched into Croatia, as one party, would

 5     define it, but not in terms of another party defining it.

 6             So, again, the conflict between the Serbs and the Croats within

 7     Croatia between the UNPA and the Croatian-controlled parts of Croatia:

 8     From one party's point of view that was an international conflict, and

 9     from the other party's point of view it was not.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And --

11        A.   But regular forces fighting each other as you would recognise

12     regular forces fighting each other.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Which brings me back to my original question:

14     Did the ECMM make any determination of the conflicts in terms of whether

15     it was international or internal at the time you were there, if you

16     recall?

17        A.   Um ...

18             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry.  The alternative

19     would be that the ECMM simply left the question open.  So I'm interested

20     to know whether actually any determination was made with the ECMM as to

21     what kind of international -- armed conflict was going on.

22        A.   Certainly.  Certainly, Your Honour.  So ECMM was acutely aware of

23     the fact that there was -- of the recognition issue.  And as I've

24     described, I think, even in testimony here, if not in the previous

25     Trial Chamber, we had to very careful not to provide recognition of

Page 17770

 1     Bosanska Krajina as a -- as a nation, because it hadn't been recognised

 2     by -- by governments.  And, therefore, yes, ECMM was acutely aware of the

 3     issue of providing recognition of nationhood, when the member governments

 4     hadn't actually recognised any of the factions who were claiming nation

 5     status as nations.

 6             So, yes, we were pretty aware of whether this was an

 7     international conflict or internal conflict.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  How are we to interpret your answer?

 9        A.   So as far as the fighting that was taking place within northern

10     Bosnia was concerned, that was not an international conflict.  The

11     fighting that was taking place between the Serbs in northern Bosnia and

12     the Croats on the other side of the river in Croatia, that would be an

13     international conflict.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

15             MS. KORNER:  May I just -- I think there are two matters that

16     need to be clarified arising from that.

17                           Further Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

18        Q.   Mr. McLeod, you've said in your answer to Judge Harhoff:

19             "... ethnic cleansing was not an armed conflict; it was a

20     one-way -- fundamentally, a one-way street ... being carried out

21     by particularly two of the parties and, to a limited extent, by the

22     third ..."

23             Who do you mean by the first two, and who -- and which was the

24     third?

25        A.   I'm sorry, I thought I -- I thought I mentioned that in my

Page 17771

 1     answer.  So, the Serbs and the Croats went in for fairly extensive ethnic

 2     cleansing, and I -- I saw, I went and had a look in Central Bosnia to

 3     see, to a more limited extent, the Bosnian, as well, had cleared a

 4     Croatian village, for example.  So each of the parties did it.  But by

 5     far the greatest amount was carried out by the Serbs and then the Croats

 6     and then the Bosnians.

 7        Q.   And finally, you mentioned the Bosanska Krajina government.  Just

 8     to be clear, are you referring there to the -- which hadn't obtained

 9     recognition, are you referring there to the government headed by

10     Mr. Karadzic?

11        A.   Yes, so --

12        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... or to a ore localised one?

13        A.   No.  The -- the -- so the Serb Republic was the -- was the

14     overarching state, with its headquarters in Pale.  And then a --

15     Bosanska Krajina - and, again, I'm not the expert, but my friends here

16     would know it inside out - was the -- I would understand the region of

17     northern Bosnia which would then stretch also into Croatia, controlled by

18     the Serbs.

19        Q.   Right.  So your talk -- I see what you mean.  You're actually

20     talking about what's come to be known as the RSK, the part in Croatia

21     between Croatia and the border; is that right?  Because there are two

22     Krajinas.

23        A.   The -- the -- I've actually talked about both, just to be

24     confusing.

25        Q.   The -- okay.  The two Krajinas is what you're talking about?

Page 17772

 1        A.   In different answers I referred to both of them, and we'd have to

 2     go back and unpick the answers.  If -- My Lords, if you're not clear,

 3     then please come back and quiz me one more time so that you can be clear.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm satisfied.

 6             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Thank you.

 7             Sorry, Your Honour, I just thought we'd better clarify the first

 8     bit.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, I believe your application is still

10     alive, but for continuity, can you repeat it?

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours, can I move into evidence the

12     whole 92 ter package, please.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the 92 ter package will be given

15     the prefix of Exhibit 1727.  The internal memo regarding the subsequent

16     documents of the package will be filed subsequently.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  I'm -- please correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Korner,

18     but there was a portion of this package that was to have been separately

19     placed under seal?

20             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, Your Honour, any of the documents -- would it

21     be simpler if we simply identify to the Registry the documents which need

22     to be under seal?  It's effectively all the reports, bar the CSCE one,

23     need to be under seal.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Again, whatever works.  If the Registry ...

25             MS. KORNER:  We'll identify that to the Registry.

Page 17773

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2             Mr. McLeod, we thank you for your assistance to the Tribunal once

 3     more, and you are now released as a witness.  We wish you a safe journey

 4     home.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Before we take the adjournment for the day, there

 8     are a number of matters which were raised by the Prosecution at the

 9     beginning of today's sitting to which the Trial Chamber would wish to

10     speak.

11             The first is -- and my recollection is that counsel for the

12     Prosecution, Ms. Korner, had suggested that a date be fixed for a

13     65 ter meeting.  In the view of the Chamber, the more efficient way of

14     dealing with the several outstanding issues which would have been

15     canvassed at such a meeting would be to conduct a Status Conference, and

16     such a conference will be held during the week, having regard to the

17     schedule of witnesses as intimated by Ms. Korner, the week beginning the

18     6th of December.  That is according to the convenience of the progress of

19     witnesses.  And the parties at that time should be prepared to discuss

20     the scheduling of the remainder of the case.

21             The second matter deals with Witness 228.  The Chamber does not

22     see a need to postpone hearing Witness 228, given the likelihood that the

23     situation which the OTP alluded to may occur, that is, that there may not

24     be witnesses to call during the last week before the recess.

25     Furthermore, it is impossible at this moment to predict exactly when this

Page 17774

 1     witness will be testifying in the Karadzic case.  The Trial Chamber is,

 2     therefore, hesitant to rely on the possibility of having this witness

 3     testify in this case while here to testify in Karadzic.  If the witness

 4     is unfit to travel, then the Office of the Prosecution may, of course,

 5     move to hear the witness via videolink.

 6             The third matter is the commencement of proceedings after the

 7     winter recess.  And having heard the representations of counsel for the

 8     Defence, the Chamber reiterates that proceedings will resume on

 9     10th of January, 2011.  But the Chamber requests the Registry to organise

10     an extra session on that day, that is, Monday the 10th.  On the

11     11th of January, the case will be as scheduled.  But on the

12     12th of January, the Wednesday, the hearing will resume at 3.00 in the

13     afternoon.  Thereafter, the case will be adjourned for the Thursday and

14     Friday and, depending on the progress of the Prosecution's case, would

15     resume on Monday, the 17th of January.

16             The final issue is Witness 223 being heard during Witness 224's

17     videolink.  The Chamber has considered the application made in relation

18     to ST-223, who is reported to be unwell and unable to travel to The Hague

19     to testify on the date proposed by the Prosecution.  Taking into account

20     the requirement under the Statute to ensure that the proceedings are fair

21     and expeditious and also for reasons of judicial economy, the Chamber is

22     satisfied, in the exceptional circumstances of 223, that it would be in

23     the interests of justice to permit the witness to testify over the

24     previously-ordered video-conference link to be established from 223's

25     country of residence for the preceding witness, 224.  This is provided

Page 17775

 1     that the necessary arrangements can be made in time by the Registry.

 2             So we take the adjournment to --

 3             MS. KORNER:  May I just ask about the Mladic notebook witnesses.

 4     I mean, that was one of the -- and it is, in a sense, one of the more

 5     urgent.  Because if they are to come, to be dealt with, then one of them

 6     certainly needs to be seen in his own country next week.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  In terms of the work that the Chamber has set out

 8     for itself to do for the remainder of the day, that is one of the items,

 9     and we trust that we would be able to rule on that tomorrow morning.

10             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of

13                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.