1 Wednesday, 1 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom and everyone in Sweden.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Good morning, including the persons in Bosnia who
10 are hearing us via videolink and telephone.
11 May we have the appearances please.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, in Sweden. Thanks.
14 MR. DOBBYN: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Office of the
15 Prosecutor, Gerard Dobbyn, with Tom Hannis, Indah Susanti, and our
16 Legal Intern Catherine Loftus.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
18 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence
19 this morning. Thank you.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
21 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
23 Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.
24 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, Your Honours, I was just standing to adjust
25 the volume. But we are ready to call our next witness who is ST-244. He
1 has protective measures in the form of a pseudonym and image distortion.
2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
3 Good morning. I trust that you can hear me, Mr. Court Officer,
4 and that the witness is available. Could you have him, first of all,
5 make the solemn declaration, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, good morning, Your Honours.
7 Good morning. I can hear you in a language we understand. And the
8 witness is present. Should I bring him in front of the camera?
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, Mr. Witness. Would you please
12 confirm that you can hear me in a language that you understand.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can hear you.
14 JUDGE HALL: I would, first of all, invite you to make the solemn
15 declaration on the card that the Court Officer will hand to you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE HALL: We should move into private session, having regard
19 to the protective measures that are in place in respect of this witness.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 17952-17953 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 And I apologise, Your Honours, the pseudonym sheet will be under
4 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you.
5 Q. Now, sir, moving to late 1991, early 1992, did you ever hear
6 about the existence of parallel Serbian government structures in Prijedor
7 municipality prior to the Serbian takeover of power in Prijedor?
8 A. Before the takeover of power, or, rather, earlier than that, I
9 did not have any premonition that something like that would happen.
10 However, later, in the spring of 1992, I heard on the radio and from some
11 other people that there was an announcement on Radio Prijedor that a
12 Serbian municipality or Serbian Municipal Assembly, Serbian Executive
13 Committees were formed, but I didn't know about that earlier. I heard
14 about that from others and on the radio. That was maybe a month before
15 the takeover of power.
16 Q. Turning to April 1992 - again, before the takeover - were you
17 aware of a meeting in Prijedor in which the staffing of police was
19 A. Yes. I heard of that meeting, and I heard that the chief of
20 police from Banja Luka was present at the public security station in
21 Prijedor where the meeting was held, although I didn't attend. I heard
22 that there was discussion about regionalisation and of moving to -- the
23 police into the region of the Serbian Krajina, that uniforms would be
24 changed, et cetera.
25 Q. Now when you say that the chief of police from Banja Luka was
1 present, do you know that person's name?
2 A. As far as I remember, Stojan Zupljanin was chief of police of
3 Banja Luka at the time.
4 Q. Did you hear whether there was any specific discussion about
5 appointment of certain individuals to positions within the police in
7 A. I know that at that meeting, although I wasn't present, I heard
8 of it, and I heard that there was discussion about annexing it to the
9 Serbian region. As far as the leadership of the police is concerned,
10 there were the commander of police and other high executive positions,
11 and this is the area where the SDS created the greatest problems with
12 respect to the appointments to these positions.
13 Q. Just very briefly, could you describe what sort of problems the
14 SDS were creating in this respect.
15 A. For example, the former president of SDS in Prijedor,
16 Srdjo Srdic, I happened to be at the meeting with the president of the
17 executive committee, the late Kovacevic, when Srdic was there, prior to
18 the appointment of the chief of police in Prijedor and the commander of
19 police. Srdic said as follows: If the things were not done according to
20 their proposal, a war will break out in Prijedor and that will serve as a
21 tool to serve all the issues and problems that hadn't been solved during
22 the Second World War as well.
23 Q. Now I'm going to move on and asking you some questions about what
24 you experienced during the Serb takeover of Prijedor at the end of
25 April 1992.
1 And, first of all, I'd like to ask you, did you go into work on
2 the day of the takeover?
3 A. Well, look, nobody expected us -- actually, none of us expected
4 that to happen. That was a normal and usual day for me. I was getting
5 ready to go to work, and at that point the then-chief of police Talundjic
6 called me by phone and asked me what I was doing. I said I was getting
7 ready to work. He said, There's no need for you to go because in
8 Prijedor the Serbian SDS had taken power and they posted guards in front
9 of the municipal building and all other important facilities, such as the
10 bank, the public auditing office, et cetera, so he said that there were
11 armed people everywhere. So on that day it was impossible to go to work.
12 Q. Did you see for yourself whether there were, in fact, armed
13 people on the streets in Prijedor?
14 A. Of course I was able to see them. I could see from my window
15 both armed men on the move but also some guards posted outside the SDS
16 headquarters. And, of course, I also saw from my window a large number
17 of armed people dressed in camouflage uniforms.
18 Q. Can you recall if there were any announcements over the radio at
19 that time regarding the employment of non-Serbs?
20 A. As far as I recall, this is how it happened: First of all, but
21 specifically later, each company or work organisation either dismissed
22 their workers or they simply refused the non-Serbs to continue working.
23 Then later, when they were unable to come and they wanted to see some
24 people in positions, there was an announcement on the radio that
25 everybody must come to their respective places of work. And I think that
1 was one of the ways to effect arrests of those who hadn't already been
2 arrested. They were invited to come to their workplace and then they
3 would conduct interviews there.
4 Q. Now just moving to the first few days after the takeover.
5 Do you know if any non-Serbs remained in any political positions
6 or any positions in the municipal government in Prijedor?
7 A. As far as I know, starting from the Executive Board of the
8 municipality, none of the elected people elected in the elections
9 remained in office.
10 As for the companies, I know that there were some such cases.
11 Some people reported for work. And I know that there were some people
12 who were at the head of the SIZ, the so-called SIZ for refugees and
13 things like that. And I know that the Executive Committee quickly
14 changed that. This new Executive Committee, which in my eyes was
15 illegal, decided to replace those individuals. For example, that applied
16 to the deputy or the public defender or the president of the Red Cross
17 organisation, et cetera.
18 Q. With the removal of non-Serbs from political positions and these
19 other positions you've referred to, who replaced them?
20 A. I couldn't find out that immediately because I had very scarce
21 information at the time. However, later, I heard that those were the
22 people thought to be suitable by the SDS, meaning the Serbs.
23 Q. Do you know, sir, whether non-Serbs who were being dismissed from
24 these positions were given any explanation for their dismissals?
25 A. As far as I know, these people who were dismissed, at least for
1 some of them, I know that they went to Omarska and they were -- they died
3 Q. I'd just like to ask that particular question again.
4 When -- when people were dismissed or told not to come into work,
5 was any explanation given as to why they were not to come in to work?
6 A. No. For example, in my case, or anybody else in the
7 Executive Committee were not provided any explanation, nor did anybody
8 consider that they should give us an explanation, simply because we were
9 non-Serbs. We were Bosniaks. And I believe that those people who were
10 in responsible positions were not asked and were not told why they had
11 been replaced.
12 MR. DOBBYN: Now, at this point I'd like to call up 65 ter 3687.
13 And this is in tab 7 of the Prosecution's binder of documents.
14 Q. Now, sir, I can't see you. Do you have that document in front of
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You'll see that this is a decision of the Executive Committee of
18 the Serbian municipality of Prijedor. It's dated the 4th of May, 1992.
19 And it's signed and stamped for Dr. Milan Kovacevic as president of the
20 Executive Committee. And you can see also that this --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You'll see that this decision states that Esad Mehmedagic is
23 dismissed from the post of deputy municipal public attorney and that
24 Slobodan Radulj is appointed acting municipal public attorney.
25 Do you see that?
1 A. Yes, I see that.
2 Q. And, sir, do you know the ethnicity of these two people?
3 A. The man who is being dismissed is a Bosniak, and the person being
4 appointed is a Serb.
5 Q. Thank you. And this man, Mr. Mehmedagic, who was dismissed, do
6 you know what subsequently happened to him?
7 A. As far as I know, and this later became official, Mehmedagic
8 ended up at Omarska and unfortunately he died. He was unable to move on
9 his own because he was very, very, short-sighted.
10 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document.
11 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01738, Your Honours.
13 MR. DOBBYN: I'd now like to move on to another document. If we
14 could call up 65 ter 3684. And this is in tab 4 of the binder.
15 Q. Sir, do you have this document in front of you now?
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dobbyn, just one little follow-up question to
17 the witness.
18 Mr. Witness, you said that Mr. Mehmedagic unfortunately died.
19 Did he died at Omarska or did he die -- when did he die and where did he
20 die; do you know?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, based on things I
22 heard and read, he died at Omarska in 1992.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 MR. DOBBYN:
25 Q. Now, sir, the document you have in front you now is another
1 decision of the Executive Committee of the Serbian municipality of
2 Prijedor. This one's dated 5th of May, 1992, and appears to be signed by
3 Dr. Kovacevic. This decision dismisses Vahid Ceric from the post of
4 assistant commander for the organisation of mobilisation and personnel
6 Sir, first of all, did you know Vahid Ceric; and, if so, what
7 ethnicity was he?
8 A. I didn't know him very well, but I was acquainted with him, and
9 he was a Bosniak.
10 Q. Under the second paragraph of this decision,
11 Major Radmilo Zeljaja is directed to implement this decision --
12 A. Yes, paragraph 2.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, and do you know what
14 Major Zeljaja's ethnicity was and what his position was?
15 A. First of all, we are dealing with two things here: Major Zeljaja
16 was a Serb. And the second thing is that he was a member of the army.
17 And I think it's rather unusual for the Executive Committee to get
18 involved with army issues and to appoint army personnel to positions.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document now.
21 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01739, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, this document last exhibited recites a
24 decision as made pursuant to Article 78 of the rules of procedure,
25 et cetera. I cannot now recall, but I assume that there was a similar
1 recital in terms of the last -- the previous document. Is -- are these
2 rules of procedure of the Executive Committee part, or will become part,
3 of the law library?
4 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, actually, I don't have that
5 question -- the answer to that off the top of my head, but I can
6 certainly check on that and give you the answer at the break.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
8 MR. DOBBYN: Now I'd like to move on to another document. This
9 is 65 ter 3685.
10 Q. Which is in tab 5 of the binder.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, sir, this one is similar to the previous documents, and it's
13 a decision dismissing Iso Bucan from the post of commander for logistics
14 security. And can you tell us what was Mr. Bucan's ethnicity was?
15 A. Mr. Iso Bucan was a Bosniak.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. DOBBYN: Could I tender this document, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
19 Mr. Dobbyn, I --
20 MR. DOBBYN: Yes.
21 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. Please go ahead.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01740.
23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, I assume that these are tendered as
24 examples of a pattern of what was going on at the time. The -- is there
25 anything -- how long is this list?
1 MR. DOBBYN: I have -- in total, I had six of these documents.
2 There are three left, Your Honours. I can go through them if you'd like,
3 or I could seek to tender them separately later on. There is the
4 following document where he's able to offer specific information about
5 what happened to the person named in that document afterwards.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Please proceed.
7 MR. DOBBYN: The next document is 65 ter 3686.
8 Q. And that's at tab 6 in the binder.
9 And, sir, in this decision Idriz Jakupovic is dismissed from the
10 post of president of the Prijedor municipal staff for the reception of
11 refugees, and he's to be replaced by Jovan Vukoja. And, again, briefly,
12 could I ask you what the ethnicity of these two individuals was?
13 A. The gentleman being dismissed is a Bosniak, and the one being
14 appointed is a Serb.
15 Q. Now, sir, do you know whether Idriz Jakupovic survived the war?
16 A. As far as I know - I wanted to add this - Idriz Jakupovic also
17 ended up at Omarska and he died there.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to tender this document, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01741, Your Honours.
22 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, as you have noted, these are examples.
23 There were a further two documents. But looking at the time, the time I
24 have left for this witness, I'll move on to the next topic.
25 JUDGE HALL: I don't know how, and if you intend to approach this
1 and I expect that if you do, the relevant point would be at the time of
2 submissions, but I'm curious as to whether, in terms of the documents
3 that you have tendered, there is a, from the Prosecution's point of view
4 and in terms of the reason why it's relying on these, a difference
5 between the previous documents, which purported to have been done under
6 the provisions of a particular rule, and this which doesn't show any
8 It's something that perhaps you can flag to return to at the
9 appropriate stage.
10 MR. DOBBYN: I will, Your Honours.
11 Q. Now, sir, moving on to a slightly different topic.
12 After the Serb takeover in Prijedor, did you become aware of any
13 arrests taking place?
14 A. By all means, the first thing that you hear about were the
15 arrests, the arrests of acquaintances and other people who I didn't know.
16 I heard about the arrests of some of my colleagues and so on. I know
17 that I talked on the telephone with the director of the public audit
18 service and I said that we were worried. We were worried. We wanted to
19 know whether he could hide anywhere. We thought that if we didn't do
20 anything, if we hadn't done anything, if we weren't guilty, we would be
21 safe. However, that wasn't the case.
22 I mentioned the president of town planning, and he was arrested
23 and he was in a camp. Later, when I talked to the director of the
24 revenue service, I could hear something in the background. He said, Hang
25 on a minute. Somebody is ringing the door bell. I'll be back. And he
1 never returned. His wife talked to me on the phone, and she said that
2 the police had been there and they took her husband away.
3 These arrests were really horrific.
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, you have an intervention?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Page 15, line 18, I believe the
6 witness said something in addition which wasn't recorded. Along the
7 lines that this person was not guilty of anything and he wasn't even the
8 member of the party.
9 So maybe this can be clarified with the witness.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
11 Mr. Dobbyn, could you have the witness confirm that he added
13 MR. DOBBYN:
14 Q. Sir, did you hear my learned colleague's comments? When talking,
15 I believe, about the president of town planning, did you also say that he
16 was not guilty of anything and wasn't even a member of the party?
17 A. Yes. What would you like me to explain?
18 Q. First of all, could you give us the name of the president of town
20 A. The president of town planning was Senad Mujkanovic. He was a
21 construction engineer.
22 Q. Now, you said he was arrested and he was in a camp. Do you know
23 which camp he was in and what happened to him there?
24 A. Yes. I heard that he was at Omarska and he died there.
25 Q. You also referred to the arrest of the director of revenue
1 service, who was arrested while you were on the phone with him. Could
2 you tell us his name. And do you know what happened to him; where he was
3 taken and what happened?
4 A. The director of the revenue service was Mehmed Tusic. He was
5 with an economist. He was taken to Omarska and killed there.
6 Q. And, sir, did you actually witness anyone you knew being
8 A. Yes. I saw the president of the municipality Muhamed Alic get
9 arrested. I saw that the police took him away.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The last name is
12 MR. DOBBYN:
13 Q. You say you saw police take him away. Could you tell us how
14 these police were dressed, what uniforms they were wearing?
15 A. They were uniformed policemen. They were wearing blue police
16 uniforms. Not camouflage ones, but regular police uniforms.
17 Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Cehajic after he was arrested?
18 A. As far as I know, after his arrest, either immediately - I don't
19 know that - but I know that he was taken to the Omarska camp. And I know
20 that he disappeared. He was at the mine as well.
21 Q. Sorry, could you just explain that last comment. You know he
22 disappeared and he was at the mine as well. What did you mean by that
24 A. When I said the mine, I meant Omarska. I know that there was a
25 camp at Omarska. And according to some eye-witnesses, he disappeared.
1 A few years after the war I heard that his remains were found and
3 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you know a man named Enes Bajramovic?
4 A. Yes. He was a colleague of mine. He used to work at the mine,
5 and he was a mechanical engineer. He was killed.
6 Q. Can you tell us what were the circumstances of his killing?
7 A. He was looking for somebody whom he could trust and who could get
8 him out. I once called his parents later on and I talked to his mother,
9 who said that somebody had called him to go out and then he was killed.
10 But later I heard that it was exactly those people whom he had found to
11 get him out that killed him. He paid them money and then they killed
13 Q. And, sir, how did -- how did you avoid being arrested at this
15 A. First of all, I was arrested once, and I was taken to the SJB, to
16 the police station. However, at first, I couldn't notice a system saying
17 that this man had done such and such a thing so he needed to be taken
18 into custody. There was either information by a neighbour or somebody
19 wanted to know how a certain person could live freely.
20 For example, when I saw from the window Muhamed Cehajic being led
21 away, I spent the night at my neighbour's. And I tried to hide in an
22 apartment, in a building, because this apartment was empty. However, I
23 was arrested and taken away.
24 I wanted to remove the battery from my car to be able to listen
25 to the radio and somebody saw me and informed the police. So six
1 policemen came in the afternoon, knocked on my door, and they said that
2 somebody had reported having seen me in town.
3 So I understood this to mean that there needed to be a reason for
4 everybody to be accused. That was in June. I believe it might have been
5 the 11th of June. And when I was at the police station I realized that
6 they had no transportation to take me to Omarska because there was a
7 funeral that day. I believe somebody from the Serbian army had been
8 killed, Karlica or somebody. So somebody from the police came and told
9 me to go home but that I wasn't to leave Prijedor because they would come
10 and get me again. So I hid in another apartment. I wasn't at home. And
11 so many people thought that I had been taken away.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Again, a part of the witness's answer was not
13 recorded in the transcript.
14 It's page 18 - 11, 12, and 13 lines. I believe the witness said:
15 "I couldn't notice a system or," and then he mentioned something about
16 the list of -- non-existing list of the people that needed to be
18 So maybe you can clarify that. I think it's important.
19 MR. DOBBYN: Yes.
20 Q. Sir, you probably heard my learned colleague. If I could just
21 ask you to go back to your answer earlier on. Did you make some mention
22 of a list or a non-existent list of people that needed to be arrested?
23 And, if so, could you repeat what you said about that list.
24 A. I'll repeat. What I meant was that there wasn't anything like
25 that. There was no evidence whatsoever, there was no reason whatsoever
1 for the people being taken away. For example, when my colleague from
2 town planning was taken away, they said he had done such and such a thing
3 so we're taking him away. And for the other man, again, they said he had
4 done such and such a thing so we're taking him away. The reason was that
5 they were not Serbs. And then indictments were filed later on.
6 That's what I wanted to say.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, you've described being arrested and taken to the
8 Prijedor police station by some police on one occasion and not being
9 taken to Omarska because there was no police vehicle available.
10 Was this -- during the period that you were in hiding, was this
11 the only time that police confronted you?
12 A. The police also came. Later it was difficult for me to tell the
13 police apart from other forces because the police started wearing
14 camouflage uniforms. However, the police came to my apartment one time
15 to look for weapons, to see if I had any weapons, so they searched the
16 whole apartment. Even my children, who were small, they were born in
17 1982 and 1987, and they took them into a room and interrogated them.
18 They asked them whether we had any weapons. And for me I considered that
19 to be an abuse of my children. But they didn't find any weapons in my
21 Q. Was there any other occasion where you were confronted by the
22 police while you were in an apartment, either your own or the apartment
23 you were hiding in?
24 A. When I was in the second apartment, there were some uniformed
25 people. Whether they were police or not, I don't know. But they
1 searched the building, asking whether there were any weapons there. I
2 had very bad experiences at the time, because I was alone in an abandoned
3 apartment and I hid there. One morning I heard terrible banging on the
4 door so I had to open, and when I opened, I saw two uniformed men. I
5 took out my identity card, so they saw that I wasn't the owner of the
6 apartment. One of them wanted to take me downstairs, the other one said
7 to point the rifle at my head. And he left, so I stayed there kneeling
8 with the rifle pointed at my head. After a lot of banging and doors
9 being open, I could hear a sound that I couldn't identify. And after
10 this, the second policeman ran downstairs, grabbed the man who had me at
11 gunpoint, and said to him, Let's run.
12 I went into the apartment. I didn't know what had saved me. But
13 later on I found out that what saved me was that the man who had gone
14 upstairs went to an apartment that was opened by a man who was sick so he
15 lost his patience and he shot him. He had shot the man in the leg, so he
16 started bleeding. He screamed, How could you hit him? He was one of
17 ours; he was a Serb. So he got confused and left.
18 I think that was what saved me.
19 Q. How long were you in hiding for, sir?
20 A. And one more thing - I'm sorry - the policemen came for me one
21 more time. That might have been in late July or early August. An
22 American journalist called Guttman was looking for me. So the police
23 took me to the restaurant at the Ljubija mine, and after that I returned
24 to my own apartment. That was when I saw Kovacevic and Drljaca. And
25 Kovacevic's initial reaction was to say to me, I thought you were either
1 dead or at Omarska. That was his reaction.
2 Q. Thank you. And just to go back to my previous question. Could
3 you tell me how long you were in hiding for?
4 A. Look, I was in hiding the whole time. The whole time I was in
5 Prijedor. Because if somebody didn't know that you existed, that was a
6 good thing. I had to hide for a long time, and it's very difficult for
7 me to talk about this. From the takeover of power until I left in late
8 1992 -- [microphone not activated] ... every day was just waiting.
9 During a walk, one of my younger daughters asked, How can we keep
10 saying this? During that whole time, nobody could know about us. Until
11 we left Bosnia. I had back pain while I was walking around.
12 Q. Now, sir, I'm interested as to exactly why you felt the need to
13 go into hiding. Obviously you described people being arrested. At that
14 time, in 1992, while in Prijedor, did you hear anything about what was
15 happening to those non-Serbs who were arrested?
16 A. Well, of course, I heard from --
17 [French on English Channel]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- did -- many were killed in the
19 camps. Many were taken away, and many were killed in one way or another.
20 They were either beaten or shot to death.
21 At any rate, the camp was where they met their death. That's why
22 it was important to get out of Prijedor.
23 I even found out about some people who were queuing at the police
24 for their papers to be able to get out. They were taken away from the
25 police station to Keraterm, and there they were killed.
1 Q. I'd like to just quickly touch on something you referred to a
2 while back. You had said there was a proclamation on the radio calling
3 for non-Serbs to return to work. Do you know anyone personally who
4 responded to that call?
5 A. Well, look, we were so naive and we knew we were completely
6 innocent. We were so naive that my wife told me, Why don't you respond
7 and go to your work? At least we won't have to go on hiding in this
8 apartment. But there was this man I knew who did respond. Of course, he
9 was immediately arrested, taken to the camp, and killed there.
10 Q. Can you tell the Court what his name was and what camp he was
11 taken to.
12 A. The one I mentioned now was Camil Pezo. He was killed in
14 Q. I'd like to move on to another area.
15 And, sir, can you recall an attack on Stari Grad that took place
16 in late May 1992?
17 A. At that time, I was in the apartment which gave a view to a part
18 of the old town, and it was very close to the old town. One morning, it
19 was foggy, I was woken up by the sound of shooting, and it's hard to say
20 how long it lasted, but it was not that long. When I was able to see, I
21 saw a tank with its gun trained at the old town and firing at the old
22 town. I saw the movement of vehicles and uniformed people wearing all
23 sorts of caps, red and other colours. There were all sorts of troops,
24 police, army troops, paramilitaries.
25 When the fog lifted, I was able to see also vehicles carrying
1 dead bodies, like pick-up trucks or flat-bed trucks carrying bodies. But
2 all the people that I could see were civilians.
3 In the old town, on the other side, I couldn't see any shooting,
4 just this tank trained at the old town. Later that same day, on the side
5 where I had a worse view, I saw buses carrying people. And I heard from
6 my neighbours from Zvornik who recognised some of the people getting off
7 the buses, I heard from them they knew some of these people and they were
8 taken later to the camp.
9 Then there were these new buildings, newly opened shops selling
10 small cars and technical goods. I saw people coming with cars to loot.
11 They were so fully loaded after the looting they were no longer able to
12 see through their own back shields. They had to peer out of the window.
13 And when the looting finished, then they started burning houses one by
14 one in the old town. I saw people going into buildings, throwing a
15 grenade in, and then getting out. And then you would see the houses
16 start to burn.
17 In one neighbourhood, I saw them shoot at the house before
18 burning it down. Also, the town mosque faired the same way. They
19 destroyed it. And our main fear was that it might collapse onto the
20 building next door.
21 Later on, some sort of delegation came and was told that the town
22 was destroyed in combat operations, but I knew it was a dirty lie,
23 because I had seen them before, burning houses down one by one. And
24 whatever was not fully destroyed by fire, they destroyed by bringing
25 construction machinery to level them.
1 That's how they destroyed the entire old town.
2 Q. I'd like to just explore that in a little more detail some of the
3 points that you've described there.
4 First of all, you had said that you were woken by a sound of
5 gun-fire in the morning on that day. Are you able to recall what time of
6 the morning it was that you were woken by this gun-fire?
7 A. Well, you see, that was a long time ago, but it was in the
8 morning. I don't know what time in the morning, but it was a very foggy
9 morning. I was hardly able to see out of my window towards the
10 Sana river. It's hard to say what time it was in the morning.
11 Q. It has been a long time, so I certainly understand that.
12 Are you able to say how intense this shooting that you heard was?
13 A. Well, if I had to make an estimate, and it would be very rough,
14 it lasted for about ten minutes.
15 Q. Do you recall roughly what time it was that the fog lifted?
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I'm sorry to
17 disturb, but it seems we lost the B/C/S translation here.
18 And we are back, I guess, now.
19 I would kindly invite the counsel to repeat his question.
20 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, I'll repeat that question.
21 Q. Do you recall roughly what time it was that the fog lifted?
22 A. Well, the fog lifted and it became much clearer around 8.00. I
23 was able to see outside. I think it was around that time that the fog
25 Q. Now, you also described a tank that was shelling the Stari Grad
1 area. At the time that the tank was shelling that area, was there any
2 gun-fire going on then?
3 A. Well, from what I was able to see, it was a tank that fired. As
4 for cannons, I did not see that. So I cannot say anything positive about
6 I just saw the tower of the mosque was shot at. Maybe those were
7 guns or Howitzers, but I could see that some sort of artillery hit the
8 mosque tower. Whether it was a hand-operated cannon or a different
9 cannon, I don't know that. But there was this tank firing at the old
10 town and hitting targets very well.
11 Q. I'm sorry, sir --
12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, you have about a minute left.
13 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, Your Honours, I believe that we had started
14 the questioning at around about quarter past. But in any case, I
15 would -- I have just a few more questions, and I would ask for a maximum
16 of another 15 minutes to finish up this topic.
17 JUDGE HALL: Maximum.
18 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL: 15. Thanks.
20 MR. DOBBYN:
21 Q. Sir, I wasn't very clear with my question.
22 You said that you were woken by shooting outside. What I'm
23 asking is that when the shelling from the tank started, was the shooting
24 still going on, or had the shooting stopped at that time?
25 A. Well, that gun-fire that woke me up was a bit more intensive than
1 later. In fact, later, there was no shooting of the same kind. There
2 was gun-fire from some other place that I could not see, but it was not
3 intensive fire.
4 Q. Now, when the fog cleared, did you see any Green Berets or armed
5 Muslims fleeing the old town area?
6 A. No, I could certainly not see that. I did not see anyone in
7 uniform except the army troops, the police, and the paramilitaries of the
8 Serbian army. All the people I saw on trucks and in other vehicles. In
9 fact, the dead bodies I saw were all in civilian clothes.
10 Q. Did you see any civilians in the old town area putting up any
11 armed resistance to the attack?
12 A. I did not see a single armed civilian offering any resistance.
13 Q. You mentioned looting taking place. Was it uniformed people who
14 were -- who were doing this looting, or was this civilians?
15 A. That was done by uniformed people. They went into houses and
16 shops, emptied them, looting. I don't think civilians had access to
17 those places at all.
18 Q. Were you able to tell whether those looting were army,
19 paramilitary, or police?
20 A. Well, it was very difficult for me to discern who wore what kind
21 of uniform. I could just see that there were various uniforms and even a
22 variety of berets. There were some red berets worn by men who came from
23 Banija [Realtime transcript read in error "Banja"], then there were
24 greener uniforms, or at least not so blue as the police uniforms. But
25 which units, which branch they belonged to, I could not tell.
1 Q. Were you able to see police uniforms, police uniforms that you
2 recognised as police uniforms in the Stari Grad area?
3 MR. ZECEVIC: I -- I believe the witness clearly explained in his
4 previous answer that he was unable to distinguish whether this -- these
5 uniforms belongs to -- belonged to whichever branch of -- or unit.
6 So I don't see the basis for this question.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. DOBBYN: Well, Your Honours, earlier on he said very
9 specifically that he has seen police in the old town area during the time
10 of this attack. I'm simply trying to clarify this for the Trial Chamber.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, after -- after Mr. Dobbyn instructed the
12 witness, I don't see what is -- what will be the value of his answer now.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: The witness did say that "there were greener
15 uniforms, or at least not so blue as the police uniforms." And that
16 would suggest that perhaps in some of those operations there might have
17 been people wearing blue uniforms. And that's what the question goes to.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, I would gladly ask that the -- this
19 audiotape be verified. Because the witness himself said, I couldn't
20 distinct to which unit these people belonged to. There were different
21 kinds of uniforms, and I couldn't distinct to which kind of unit they
23 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I think the fact that there seems to
24 be some lack of clarity between the people in the courtroom themselves is
25 all the more reason to try and clarify this with the witness. We want
1 this to be clear for the record, and so that's why I'm exploring it
3 JUDGE HALL: The only objections that I think that could have
4 been made is that the way that the question which prompted Mr. Zecevic's
5 rising was that it was a leading question. But that apart, clearly it is
6 a matter which should be clarified.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. DOBBYN:
9 Q. Sir, you've described several different groups of people who were
10 in the old town area during this attack, during the looting and the
11 burning of the houses. Were you able to positively tell that there were
12 people who were police in the old town area at that time; and, if so, how
13 were you able to recognise them as police?
14 A. That they were members of the police, I could tell about certain
15 people, certain units that were either driving in police cars or who wore
16 distinctly police uniforms. But at a later stage there were so many
17 camouflage uniforms, combat and military camouflage uniforms, that I
18 could not recognise which ones were army troops or paramilitaries. Some
19 were White Eagles; others wore red berets. The police I could
20 distinguish, especially on one side, looking on one side.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, one
22 correction: Page 27, line 16, the witness mentioned the Red Berets had
23 come from Banija. "Banija." The transcript says "Banja," and it should
24 be B-a-n-i-j-a.
25 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you.
1 Q. Finally, sir, if we could look at 65 ter 3683. And this is in
2 tab 16 of your binder.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dobbyn, is this another topic?
4 MR. DOBBYN: No. This is on the same topic, Your Honours.
5 Q. Sir, what you see in front of you is a photograph that was taken
6 on 24 September 1995. Do you recognise the area shown in this
8 A. Of course I recognise this area. But this image shows the
9 outcome of what the Serb forces did. This cleared forest is an area --
10 this clearing is a place where, in other times, there used to be many,
11 many houses. This is the bridge on the Sana river; facing it, the hotel;
12 and then the old town. The whole old town was cleared.
13 MR. DOBBYN: Now, I'd just like to check whether the witness is
14 able to mark the hard copy of the photograph he has in front of him. If
15 so, I'd like him to draw a circle around the area he has said is the --
16 where the old town stood.
17 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
18 MR. DOBBYN: Perhaps if we can hear from -- oh, I see that it is
19 being marked. I'm sorry, I can see now that it is being marked.
20 Q. If you can draw the number 1 in the centre of that circled area,
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Sir, you can see the area that I believe you described as
24 Stari Grad is completely bare. Can you give an estimate of how many
25 houses were standing in that area in Stari Grad before the attack in
2 A. It was very densely populated. The houses stood very close
3 together. There was certainly a couple of thousand, several thousand
4 population, but how many exactly, it's hard to say. But there were a lot
5 of people, and the houses stood very close to one another.
6 Q. Is the building that you are hiding in and from which you
7 observed the attack shown in this photograph?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And for our sake over here, can you describe which building
10 you're referring to?
11 A. Shall I mark it?
12 Q. Yes, please. If you could mark it with the number 2.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: We are not getting the markings, Your Honour. How
14 do we understand what is the -- the number 1, what is the number 2, if we
15 don't see it? How can we cross-examine the witness on that?
16 MR. DOBBYN: After he marks it, I'll be asking him to explain
17 which building it is.
18 JUDGE HALL: And to the extent that it works, perhaps he can hold
19 it up to the camera.
20 MR. DOBBYN: I'll have him do that once I've finished with the
21 markings which he performs, Your Honours.
22 Q. Sir, if you've marked that building with number 2, can you please
23 describe which building it is in the photo so that we here in The Hague
24 will be able to know which one you're referring to.
25 A. I don't know. Shall I turn it towards the camera? Perhaps that
1 would be best.
2 Q. Yes, thank you. If you could do that.
3 A. Old town. Old town.
4 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, is that coming up? We're not seeing
5 it on ours.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house, the building where I
8 MR. DOBBYN: Is that coming up for anyone else?
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can he show --
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MR. DOBBYN: Can we please -- sorry, Your Honours, we don't --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the area of the old town was
13 this, all of this.
14 MR. DOBBYN: [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation
15 continues] ... Your Honours, we're seeing the witness's face at the
16 moment. Is this going out? because -- no. Okay. Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the area of the old town.
18 The building from which I watched this is here.
19 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you. Now --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would it be a suggestion to have that marked
21 on -- on the document we have now on the screen? I mean, we clearly saw
22 what the witness indicated, so ...
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. So that's solved.
25 MR. DOBBYN:
1 Q. There is just one other marking I'd like you to make, sir. And
2 this is -- you described earlier that there was a -- you saw a tank
3 shelling Stari Grad. Could you mark with the number 3 where you saw that
5 And then when you've finished that, if you could hold it up to
6 the camera and point that out again.
7 A. The tank was standing here, roughly. Here.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to make sure, before I ask for this
9 photograph to be admitted, that can you confirm that you have clearly
10 marked, first of all, the Stari Grad area with the number 1; the
11 apartment you were observing the attack from with the number 2; and the
12 location of the tank with the number 3.
13 A. [No verbal response]
14 MR. DOBBYN: Then, Your Honours, I would like to tender this
15 photograph with its markings.
16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
17 MR. DOBBYN: [Previous translation continues] ... and that
18 concludes -- sorry.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01742.
20 MR. DOBBYN: And that concludes my questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HALL: Which brings us to the break.
22 We will adjourn and resume in 20 minutes.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I had a follow-up question already before
2 Mr. Krgovic addressed the issue.
3 Mr. Witness, you talked about the Red Berets.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: You talked about the Red Berets from Banija.
6 What did you mean by that? Who were they, as far as you know?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, those were some
8 formations from the battle-grounds in Croatia in Banija. I don't know
9 where they had originally been formed, but those were the Serbs wearing
10 red berets, at least that's what some people told me, and that they were
11 the Serb formations that had come from the battle-fields in Croatia.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Aleksic, if I may, before you begin your
16 The Chamber has received a motion filed yesterday from the
17 Prosecution in respect of a witness who is to testify on Monday, seeking
18 protective measures. And we would be grateful if, by tomorrow, we could
19 have responses from the Defence to this motion.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm already -- I'm ready to give my
21 response later today. When we finish with this witness, maybe that would
22 be an appropriate time.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Aleksic, you may begin.
1 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. With regard to the events of the 30th of April, you testified in
6 the Stakic case as well, and you mentioned it today also.
7 On page 2480, you said that on that day you stayed at home, that
8 you did not venture out, and that you spoke with Mr. Talundzic over the
9 phone who told you not to go to work.
10 Did Mr. Talundzic tell you that -- or before, that -- anything
11 about a meeting held on the 29th of April, 1992, at the Prijedor SJB,
12 which was attended by Mr. Simo Miskovic, the president of the SDS, and
13 Mr. Mirza Mujadzic from the SDA, in addition to the people from the SJB?
14 A. He told me what I already mentioned.
15 Q. No, no, I'm asking you about the meeting of the 29th of April.
16 Did he tell you anything about that meeting?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did Mr. Talundzic tell you anything about the dispatches sent on
19 that day, the 29th of April, by the republican MUP from Mr. Delimustafic,
20 as well as from the republican TO Staff from Mr. Hasan Efendic?
21 A. No, we did not discuss that.
22 Q. Do you know that on that day, the 29th of April, pursuant to an
23 order issued by the two above-mentioned gentlemen, Efendic and
24 Delimustafic, the MUP and TO defence units were ordered to enter into
25 combat operations into the entire territory of B and H?
1 A. I don't know about that.
2 Q. Thank you. On pages 2485 and 86 in the Stakic case, you said
3 that after the 30th of April your access to information was restricted,
4 which meant that you could listen to the radio very seldom because it was
5 a battery-operated radio. And you mentioned the same thing today.
6 Do you remember that testimony?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Also in the Stakic case, on page 22 -- 2600, you said that after
9 30th of April there was a period of calm which lasted for about two or
10 three weeks.
11 Then on pages 2601 and 02, you added that after the takeover of
12 April [as interpreted] on the 30th of April you remained in your flat
13 until you learned that Mr. Cehajic was arrested, which happened towards
14 the end of May 1992.
15 Do you remember that; and do you remember mentioning it today as
17 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I remember.
18 Q. Throughout that period, were you able to hear on the radio that
19 on the 22nd of May a check-point in Hambarine was attacked? The
20 check-point that was manned by the JNA troops.
21 A. I heard that there were some attacks. I know that immediately
22 after the takeover of power two men were killed, but I also remember that
23 there was mention of this attack on the check-point. However, the two
24 men killed in Vozicini [phoen] were Bosniaks. However, nobody mentioned
1 Q. And do you know if Mr. Cehajic and some other persons were
2 arrested after the 23rd of May in the wake of the attack on the soldiers
3 in Hambarine?
4 A. I know about Cehajic. Some were arrested before him; some were
5 arrested after him. Not all the people were arrested on the same day.
6 Some were arrested earlier; some were arrested later.
7 Q. Concerning the event of the 30th of May and the attack on
8 Prijedor, you said that on that morning there was fog and that shots
9 could be heard coming from all sides.
10 You said that on page 2494 in the Stakic case also. On page
11 2696, you said that later on you heard on the radio that the destruction
12 was caused by combat operations. And then, on page 2588, you were asked
13 the following question.
14 [In English] [Previous translation continues] "Are you aware of
15 the attack on Prijedor of the end of May 1992?
16 "I heard that, in the building I was in, that neighbours later
17 said that the group had carried out an attack somewhere, but I don't know
18 anything about the details. I was in apartment in one room of that
20 "Did you hear the shooting on the 30th May, 1992?
21 "Yes. Shooting was heard, could be heard."
22 [Interpretation] Do you remember giving this evidence?
23 A. Was there a question for me?
24 Q. Do you agree with what I read, and is it consistent with your
25 evidence in the Stakic case?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Again, in the Stakic case, and I believe you mentioned the same
3 thing today, you said that from your room you could only see one part of
4 the old town.
5 Tell me, from the position where you were, were you able to see
6 the bridge across the Sana?
7 A. No, I couldn't see the bridge. And one can see that from the map
8 that I showed you.
9 Q. Had you heard that parts of units led by Slavko Ecimovic carried
10 out an attack on Prijedor by crossing the bridge across the Sana towards
11 the old town?
12 A. No, I didn't hear where they crossed. I heard shooting aimed at
13 some group that carried out an attack, but I don't know where.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions for you.
15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] I have a few questions for you.
19 Can you tell me, you mentioned listening to the radio for a
20 certain period of time.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that was your main source of information; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. One of the sources of information.
24 Q. Muharem Nezirovic was the editor of Radio Prijedor; is that
1 A. Yes, he was. Until he went to Omarska.
2 Q. That means up until June.
3 A. I don't know when, but I know that he ended up in Omarska, and I
4 saw him live here.
5 Q. You mean after the war?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If I tell that Mr. Nezirovic was the editor of Radio Prijedor
8 throughout April and May ...
9 A. What you're saying is not interesting at all. We could only hear
10 about Mutic. We didn't hear anything from Nezirovic.
11 Q. Sir, whether it's interesting or not is a completely different
12 issue. Of course you were not able to hear him because this gentleman
13 was editor-in-chief of Radio Prijedor and he was not a broadcaster.
14 Now, could you confirm and can you allow for a possibility that
15 Mr. Nezirovic was the editor-in-chief of radio Prijedor throughout
16 April and May? Can you confirm that or not?
17 A. No, I cannot, because I don't know.
18 Q. Very well. Since you listened to the radio, do you remember that
19 a certain lady named Senija Dzafic was a news reader?
20 A. I never heard her name. I know that she only read out what was
21 signed by Mutic. By Mutic and a certain man called Kesar [phoen].
22 Q. So you were able to hear Ms. Senija Dzafic as a news reader on
23 radio Prijedor?
24 A. I don't know what her name was, but I know that what she was
25 reading was signed by the Crisis Staff.
4 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, Your Honours, I think we should be going into
5 private session, or at least this last question should be redacted.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
7 Do you have a further question which require us to move into
8 private session, Mr. Zecevic?
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I posed the question in a manner which I
10 didn't expect this answer, but ... well, to be on the safe side, maybe
11 it's better that we are, for a couple of questions.
12 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, a while ago, in response to the question posed by my learned
11 friend, you said that you were not familiar with the order on the
12 commencement of war operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina issued by
13 Messrs. Cengic and Delimustafic dated the 24th of April.
14 Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes. And I'm not familiar with that.
16 Q. I apologise. I said Cengic, but I was referring to
17 Mr. Hasan Efendic.
18 Tell me, do you know that way back on the 25th of April the
19 commander of the TO Staff was nominated for the area of Puharska and that
20 was done by Mr. Hasan Cengic [as interpreted]?
21 A. No. I absolutely know nothing about that.
22 Q. Puharska is a region near Prijedor; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are you familiar with a Jusuf Ramic from Puharska who was
25 appointed commander on the 25th of April, 1992?
1 A. No, I'm not familiar with that name at all.
2 Q. Do you know that on that same day the Kozarac TO commander became
3 a certain Mr. Madunjanin by appointment?
4 A. Where was he appointed to?
5 Q. He was appointed commander of the TO Staff of the
6 Patriotic League for the Kozarac sector.
7 A. No, I don't know anything about that.
8 When you mentioned Puharska, I just know that the -- that the
9 mosque was mined there and the Catholic church in town. That's what I
10 know about it.
11 Q. Sir, are you familiar with Muharem Handanagic [phoen], a colonel
12 from Prijedor?
13 A. If you're referring to a municipal official, he might have been
14 in the reserve. I know the man. I'm acquainted with him. He was
15 murdered in his apartment or his house.
16 Q. And do you know that he was appointed commander of the TO Staff,
17 that is, of the Patriotic League, for the entire territory of Prijedor?
18 A. No, I don't know that. As for him, I just know that he was
19 murdered in his yard, as a civilian.
20 Q. Very well. My learned friend showed you two documents which you
21 commented on. Just a moment. Those were tabs 4 and 5. The first
22 document is 65 ter 3684. That's tab 4.
23 I apologise, I know it was given an exhibit number, but I was not
24 able to write it down.
25 Do you remember that you commented on this document earlier
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Among others, you said that it is interesting that Major Zeljaja,
4 as a military personnel, is mentioned here is -- is interesting.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Sir, it's true, is it not, that the commander for the
7 organisation of mobilisation and personnel affairs is a part of the
8 National Defence sector in the municipality?
9 A. Let me say just this: That's more of a legal issue. I know that
10 some people - there might have been two people - who were on the
11 municipal budget. They were in the reserve forces.
12 Q. As vice-president of the Executive Committee of the municipality,
13 I'm certain that you knew that there is a municipal organ in charge of
14 National Defence. That's how it was laid down in the laws of the former
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the people who worked in the National Defence organs and the
18 whole National Defence system was under the JNA. At least it was a part
19 of the JNA. Isn't that correct?
20 A. The Secretariat for National Defence was a part of the
21 municipality, a part of the Executive Committee. Now, as for which part
22 was in the army, I'm not certain. For those things that we were
23 uncertain about, we called a secretary who was a lawyer and who was in
24 charge of the statute and then we would act in accordance with what he
1 Q. You must know that the JNA, which was the basic defence force of
2 the former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, had to give its
3 consent for the appointment of any employee in the municipal sectors of
4 National Defence. You must know about that?
5 A. I don't know about that. The Secretariat for National Defence
6 and the chief, I don't think that the army had anything to do with that.
7 Q. Tell me, Major Radmilo Zeljaja was a member of the JNA, wasn't
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He was in the Prijedor garrison; right?
11 A. Yes. As far as I know.
12 Q. Very well. On page 18 of today's transcript -- let me just
13 paraphrase exactly what you said. I intervened because your answer
14 wasn't recorded in its entirety. You said:
15 I was arrested once, detained, that is, and I was taken to the
16 public security station, the police station. As far as I could tell, I
17 didn't notice that there was a system?
18 And then you said, Nor that there was a list according to which
19 people were taken into custody.
20 Instead - and this is what the transcript says: A man would do
21 something and then he needed to be taken into custody.
22 Let's just clarify this, because your answer wasn't recorded. If
23 I understood you correctly, you said that your impression at the time was
24 that there wasn't a system and that there wasn't a list according to
25 which people were taken into custody, and that, instead, this was done
1 ad hoc, or this was because a neighbour would report somebody.
2 Is that what you said?
3 A. Yes, that's exactly what I said. I would just like to add that
4 we asked why people were being taken away, and nobody could give us an
5 indictment for a person who was taken away. Accusations were later
7 Q. And how do you know that, sir? How -- where did you get that
8 information, that accusations or indictments were later fabricated?
9 A. Because we heard later from some people that people were being
10 asked about things that they knew nothing about.
11 Q. Sir, it's a fact that the first time you were taken into custody
12 you were asked by the inspectors at the police station whether it was
13 true that on that day you were walking around town wearing a uniform.
14 Wasn't that the question they asked you?
15 A. Yes. I was accused of having been seen in town in a uniform.
16 And I didn't dare walk around town in any sort of clothing, let alone a
17 uniform. That was just a fabrication. Somebody had called in and said
18 that I was seen in a uniform. That was a fabrication; it was a lie.
19 Q. I agree that it's a lie. I'm not saying that you were walking
20 around Prijedor in a uniform. It would never cross my mind to say
21 something like that.
22 What I'm asking you is: Your testimony is that somebody called
23 the police station and said, Such and such a person - I don't want to
24 mention a name - was seen today walking around Prijedor wearing a
25 uniform. Is that what you're trying to say?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The second time, when you had an incident with some uniformed
3 people and you don't know whether they were policemen but you assumed
4 that they were, was when you opened your front door. Do you remember you
5 talked about this? And then a weapon was pointed at your head.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And on that occasion, when you showed your identity card, they
8 were able to see that you were neither the owner of the apartment nor did
9 you have residence at that address. That's why they pointed the weapon
10 at you.
11 A. Yes. First of all, they could see that it wasn't a Serbian name;
12 and, second of all, they could see that my last name didn't match the
13 name on the door.
14 Q. Sir, this was in July and August, if I remember your testimony
16 A. No. As for that second apartment, I don't know when that was. I
17 just know that it happened in that second apartment.
18 Q. I believe that earlier today you said that this was in July or
20 A. No. Because in July or August I was taken away by the police,
21 when -- when Guttman wanted to see me. That was earlier.
22 Q. So this event was in June or July; is that correct?
23 A. It must -- it might have been June.
24 Q. Sir, you will agree with me that in both these cases - when you
25 were taken into custody to the police station and the second time, when
1 they pointed a weapon at you - that on both those occasions, there was
2 some grounds for them to suspect that something was not right?
3 A. Whether there were grounds, I don't know. But I know that there
4 were Serbian snipers on that building, and I don't know why they were
5 searching the building on that occasion.
6 Q. Sir, that apartment where the two men found you when you opened
7 the door, you had gone into that apartment because it was abandoned. It
8 wasn't your apartment.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you said that you heard from the neighbours in the hallway,
11 you heard them talking. Were they Serbs or Muslims?
12 A. They were Serbs.
13 Q. And these neighbours knew that you were in that apartment?
14 A. They saw me only once and that was earlier. I said that this man
15 had asked me to be in that apartment. He had been their neighbour, and
16 he had left Prijedor.
17 Q. Either way, sir, when, in July or August, this policeman called
18 you in to meet with the journalist --
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] And may I suggest that we go into
20 private session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 17997-17999 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. [Interpretation] In 1998, you gave a statement to the OTP; right?
16 A. Possibly. I don't know which year. There was a number of
17 statements that I gave. Different occasions.
18 Q. You gave one on the 14th through 16 August 1997. And this must
19 be the second one.
20 A. Possibly.
21 Q. Sir, at that time in 1998, you said that on that occasion you did
22 not recognise a single soldier or a policeman in that place. And you
23 were talking about that attack, that conflict, around the old town?
24 A. You mean as I would recognise somebody that I knew?
25 Q. No, I'm asking you because earlier this morning not everything
1 was quite clear about your answer. And you were even questioned by the
2 Trial Chamber whether you had seen people in police uniforms that day,
3 the 30th of May. Because your evidence is that you had seen people in a
4 variety of uniforms.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Now I'm asking you: On that day, did you see a single person
7 that you can say was a member of the police?
8 A. It's true that there was a variety of uniforms that I still don't
9 know to whom they belong. But where it was less visible, where there
10 were civilians and people were getting off, there I could see some people
11 in police uniforms.
12 Q. Let me just explain something to you. What you are saying is
13 interpreted and then recorded, so occasionally, because of that
14 procedure, parts of your answer do not find their way into the record. I
15 need to clear this up.
16 You said just now that what you saw were several policemen around
17 the buses when people were getting onto those buses.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you have before you the photograph, P1742?
20 A. You mean that map?
21 Q. This photograph of Prijedor.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us, approximately, where those buses that you had
24 seen were?
25 A. That side was less visible. They were on the other side, in this
1 lower part of the picture, if I can put it that way. Those streets at
2 the bottom of the picture. There's another exit from the old town where
3 civilians were able to leave, and I could not see all of them. I could
4 see just one part of the column, near the buses. How many buses there
5 were, I couldn't see. I couldn't see whether there were more of them.
6 Q. If I understood you correctly now, on the side where your
7 apartment was facing you could not see the area where people were getting
8 onto buses because it's on the opposite side of the building?
9 A. I saw one section; perhaps one end of it. I couldn't see how
10 many buses there were. I could just see those that were on one end. The
11 front end.
12 Q. When you were giving that statement in 1997 and 1998, you
13 confirmed that you had not seen the people who were injured or dead being
14 carried away after the conflict around the old town.
15 A. I just saw those people laid out on trucks being driven away.
16 Where, I don't know.
17 Q. Do you mean the corpses of people killed, on the trucks?
18 A. Yes, that's what I mean.
19 Q. Did they have no tarpaulin, these trucks?
20 A. The tarpaulin was very loose. Sometimes it did not really cover
21 the trucks. So you could easily see inside.
22 Q. And where did you see those trucks with dead bodies?
23 A. They were driving along the road. I don't know where they were
24 headed. I -- I saw them driving by.
25 Q. Along which road --
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 Q. Just let me finish the question. Take it easy.
3 You mentioned a road. Which road? Is that the road where the
4 tank was standing, facing the Sana bridge, or some other side?
5 A. That was this road just outside the building. You can see a road
6 just outside the building that connects with this road heading for the
8 Q. And from the window of that apartment you saw trucks driving by,
9 past the building; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You had some friends who lived in the old town; right?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that man can barely walk
1 now from all that he's suffered in the camp.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. It's a fact, sir, isn't it, that while you were in Prijedor you
4 did not see a single killing; you heard about all of that from other
6 A. Right.
7 Q. And all this information that you shared with us about certain
8 persons, all this is hearsay, isn't it? All that you heard about the
9 fate of some people who lost their lives or were arrested, all this is
10 information you got from other people.
11 A. Yes, right.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
13 A. You're welcome.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE HALL: Re-examination?
16 MR. DOBBYN: I do just have a few questions, Your Honours.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Dobbyn:
18 Q. Now, sir, you were asked by my learned colleague, Mr. Aleksic,
19 about Mr. Cehajic's arrest, and it was put to you that he was arrested
20 after the incident at the Hambarine check-point.
21 Do you recall that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, up until the point where -- when Mr. Cehajic was arrested,
24 did you have any contact or regular contact with him?
25 A. Well, first of all, we were trying to keep a low profile, to stay
1 at home, because we didn't know the intentions of the new authorities.
2 We sometimes had contact, but very little.
3 Q. Well, it was put to you by my learned colleague that you must
4 have maintained close contact with SDA party leadership.
5 So I would like to ask you: With the contact that you did have
6 with him, did he ever discuss with you organising any armed resistance to
7 the takeover in Prijedor?
8 A. In -- all the contacts with the president of the municipality
9 were business contacts concerning the establishment and the organisation
10 of the municipality itself, and there was never any mention of any
11 military action.
12 Q. After the takeover, did you ever have any discussions with
13 Mr. Cehajic about how you should react to the takeover?
14 A. Well, we talked, and I already said that we were very naive,
15 because we thought that we were innocent so we had nothing to be afraid
16 of, and why should we leave? We thought we were safe remaining at home.
17 But, as I said, it was a very naive outlook.
18 Q. Now, you were also asked - and this is at transcript page 36 -
19 about whether you had heard on the radio that damage in the old town area
20 was caused by combat operations. And you were also asked whether your
21 Serb neighbours had said that a group had carried out an attack on
22 Prijedor on that day.
23 Do you recall being asked those questions?
24 A. Yes, I remember the question.
25 Q. I'd just like to ask you, just to clarify: Your observations of
1 what happened in the old town area on the 30th of May, was that
2 consistent with combat operations?
3 A. From what I heard, and from the official version, that was not
4 consistent with what I saw. On the radio, they said the devastation was
5 a result of military combat operations, but I saw something entirely
6 different. What they said on the radio was a pure lie.
7 Q. Now, on -- on the same subject of what you'd heard on the radio,
8 Mr. Zecevic asked you about the editor in-chief of the radio,
9 Mr. Nezirovic, and you had responded that you only heard Mutic, not
10 Nezirovic. And just to clarify, could you just tell the Trial Chamber
11 who Mutic was?
12 A. Well, there were two: There was the director of Radio Prijedor
13 Mile Mutic, and there was Rade Mutic, journalist of the "Kozara Vjesnik."
14 Both of them worked hard on the propaganda, sowing hatred against
16 Q. In this period following the takeover, what was the nature of the
17 broadcast on Radio Prijedor? Would you consider them to have been
18 balanced, or, rather, were they one-sided?
19 A. Well, first of all, I listened to Prijedor while saving my
20 battery, but what I heard was one-sided; mainly proclamations of the
21 Crisis Staff. I didn't need to listen to a lot of that.
22 Q. You were also asked some questions about the incidents when you
23 were arrested or confronted by police or other armed people, and it was
24 suggested to you that in both cases there was a basis for those
1 Now, first of all, the apartment that you were hiding in, who
2 owned that apartment?
3 A. It's the apartment of a relative of mine who was absent.
4 Q. It was put to you that, as I said, the police were justified or
5 had a basis for these confrontations with you. Now, you described an
6 incident where a man in the same building, a Serb man, was shot in the
7 leg. From what you heard from the neighbours and from what you observed
8 at that time, did there appear to be any justification for that?
9 A. In my view, there was absolutely no justification. However, I
10 heard later that raids were made in other buildings as well. They were
11 searched. They were looking for weapons or armed men. But, as I said,
12 in my building, such an operation was absolutely unnecessary, because
13 there were Serbian snipers on the rooftop, and it was pointless in every
15 Q. To your knowledge, was there any justification for the arrests of
16 those other non-Serb persons that you named earlier on in your testimony?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I think this calls for speculation, Your Honours.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Concerning all the persons I know
19 and that I mentioned, there was absolutely no reason.
20 MR. DOBBYN:
21 Q. Sir, it was also put to you at the end of the questioning from my
22 learned colleague that everything that you testified to regarding arrests
23 and so forth was pure hearsay. But, just to confirm, again, isn't it the
24 case that you were actually an eye-witness to the arrest of Mr. Cehajic?
25 Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, I saw that with my own eyes.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
3 A. Thank you.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, the attack on Prijedor Stari Grad,
7 old town, is referred to as around end of May. Do you know of the exact
8 date of that attack you witnessed from your apartment?
9 A. I really can't tell you the exact date. I think it was the
10 second half of or the end of May. I don't know the date.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you know about what is referred to as the
12 Muslim attack on Prijedor? More or less in that same period.
13 A. No. I don't know anything about that. I know only what I could
14 hear from Radio Prijedor.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: And did you hear on Radio Prijedor about a Muslim
16 attack on Prijedor?
17 A. When I am talking about the radio, I mean to say that they would
18 have kept the population mobilised. They were already talking about the
19 existence of Green Berets, Muslim units, that could attack at any moment.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
21 I wanted to have some clarification about what you were telling
22 us on the arrest of people and on the absence or not of system and lists.
23 Is it your testimony that those arrests were individual actions
24 by individual policemen, paramilitary, or whatever?
25 A. Well, first of all, there must have been individual cases, of
1 course, but most of the arrests were made by the police. I know of
2 colleagues from the mine, for instance, one was a Croat - most of the
3 arrests were of non-Serbs or perhaps some people were arrested because
4 they wanted their apartments. But a large number of people went missing
5 in one way or another. One number of people would be arrested on one
6 day, and then it would be the turn of others. One of my colleagues who
7 went missing, a mechanical engineer, as he was getting ready, he said, In
8 my building, no one knows on which night they will hear the knock on the
9 door. It was like with the Russian Gulag arrests.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: You say, "most of the arrests were of non-Serbs
11 or perhaps some people were arrested because they wanted their
12 apartments." Do you know of any Serbs being arrested on the basis of
13 what you call phone calls, phone calls to the police, to give them
14 information that you say was fabricated for one or the other reason?
15 A. I can't give you a single example of an arrested Serb. Perhaps
16 if they found somebody of their own, unsuitable or unloyal, they could
17 have become a target too. But all the people I can talk about are --
18 they're all non-Serbs.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, sorry, just one
21 correction to the transcript. One part of the witness's answer is
22 missing. When he said most of those arrested - that's page 59, line 12.
23 When he says, [In English] that a large number of people -- a number of
24 people would be arrested on another date -- [no interpretation]
25 ... arrested because they wanted their apartment [Interpretation] and
1 when he talks about they were arrested because they wanted their
3 And one sentence is missing: Or on the basis of a neighbour's
5 Do you agree, witness, that you said they there were also
6 arrested based on neighbour's denunciations?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Some denunciations came from
8 neighbours too.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's all I wanted to ask.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.
11 And we thank the witness for his assistance to the Tribunal.
12 Sir, you are now released. Thank you.
13 And we thank the Court Officer for his assistance.
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, does the Prosecution have another
18 witness available today?
19 MR. DOBBYN: No, sorry, Your Honours, we don't.
20 JUDGE HALL: But you do have a witness available for tomorrow
22 MR. DOBBYN: Yes, we do. There's a witness who I believe is in
23 The Hague at the moment or arriving today, but not available to start at
24 this time.
25 JUDGE HALL: And what about Friday?
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, as you know, the witness originally
2 scheduled for Monday has had the medical problem. I'm told he's
3 recovering well. He seemed in good spirits. Did talk about the
4 possibility of still wanting to come forward and testify, but we're not
5 certain he'll be ready to testify on Friday. We certainly have one more
6 witness for tomorrow, but that may be the only witness that we're going
7 to be able to put on the rest of this week.
8 JUDGE HALL: When you say "one more," you mean in addition to the
9 scheduled witnesses, or the scheduled witness?
10 MR. HANNIS: The scheduled witness for tomorrow.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
12 MR. HANNIS: And possibly the one who was scheduled for Monday
13 could go on Friday, but I think it's highly unlikely. I would feel
14 uncomfortable doing that, given what's transpired with him.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
16 Mr. Zecevic, you indicated that you would be in a position to
17 respond to the motion before we rise for the day?
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, if I may now.
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, the position of the -- of the
21 Stanisic Defence is that we oppose the -- the request.
22 I just made the analysis, Your Honours. I will very briefly say.
23 I just made the analysis: Almost 50 per cent of the witnesses that were
24 heard in this trial had one or the other kind of the protective measure.
25 Now, in the last couple of instances, I -- I seem to recall - and I
1 believer my recollection is right - that -- that the witnesses are now
2 talking about not -- not -- not actual threats or anything of the kind
3 but assumptions that -- things like that might happen due to different
4 reasons. And because of that, we don't feel that it -- that this
5 application meets the threshold to give the protective measures to that
7 And we are very concerned about the -- the number of the
8 witnesses which -- which have been granted the protective measures
9 because we believe that -- it is my honest belief that there might be
10 some other reason why -- why this -- why this is -- why this is requested
11 and not really the -- the -- the problem or the threat to -- to the -- to
12 body and -- or of that witness or his family.
13 Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE HALL: I would say, although we're not ready to
15 rule immediately, that the Chamber shares the concern that you have.
16 Does the -- sorry, does the Zupljanin Defence have a response?
17 MR. KRGOVIC: It's a joint submission by Mr. Zecevic.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 So we will consider this and probably rule -- well, we would have
20 to rule tomorrow.
21 So we rise for the day, to resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.
22 Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.19 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day
25 of December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.