101209ED

Page 18383

1 that I have indicated, if at any time you need to take a break, if you

2 indicate it to us, we will, of course, accommodate you.

3 And I would invite Ms. Korner to begin.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Examination by Ms. Korner:

6 Q. Doctor, let me start, first of all, with your testifying history,

7 as it were.

8 It was interpreted to us a moment ago that you testified in court

9 but you've never testified before the ICTY. So let's just clarify that.

10 It's right, isn't it, that you gave evidence in the case against

11 Milomir Stakic in - let me just get the date - September 2002?

12 A. That's correct. I understood the former Yugoslavia to mean that

13 I testified somewhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I did testify before

14 this Court in relation to the events that happened during the war.

15 Q. I think you testified, as I say, in September 2002, in the case

16 against Stakic. And then in November of the same year, in the case

17 against Radoslav Brdjanin.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I think you've got also probably rare experience of giving

20 evidence in the High Court in London in a libel action that arose out of

21 the report that Penny Marshall, the ITN reporter, made of what happened

22 at Trnopolje. And in respect, particularly, of whether or not the fence

23 that was shown in the video which we'll look at later was actually there

24 or not.

25 Is that right?

Page 18384

1 A. That's right. In principle it was about the existence or the

2 non-existence of that fence.

3 Q. And additionally you then -- you also made a statement in

4 August of 2000 to an Office of the Prosecutor investigator. And during

5 the course of taking that statement, you drew various diagrams of

6 Trnopolje and you also provided copies of photographs that had been taken

7 by you or someone who was in Trnopolje with you, Azra Blazevic, of the

8 conditions, including the condition of the room in which interrogations

9 had taken place.

10 Is that right?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. All right. First of all, Dr. Merdzanic, can I briefly deal with

13 your background, and then we'll move straight to the events of 1992.

14 You, in fact, attended the Faculty of Medicine in Banja Luka; is

15 that correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Between 1978 and 1986. And on completing that part of your

18 education, did you do your compulsory military service with the JNA?

19 A. I did. I spent one year in the JNA.

20 Q. And did you, on completion of your military service, get a job in

21 an outpatient clinic as a general practitioner in Prijedor?

22 A. In 1988, a few months after I completed my military service, I

23 got a job in Prijedor.

24 Q. And eventually were you given a permanent post at the

25 Prijedor Health Centre?

Page 18385

1 A. Yes, I was. I was given a permanent job at the health centre.

2 Q. All right. Now, the Prijedor Health Centre - is this correct? -

3 covered a number of different areas within the municipality of Prijedor,

4 which included Trnopolje, Kozarac, Omarska, and Ljubija. And other

5 places.

6 A. That's correct. They were outpatient centres which were part of

7 the Prijedor Health Centre. These were field outpatient centres.

8 Q. All right. And in 1991, did you start working at one of the

9 clinics which was part of the sawmill in Kozarac?

10 A. First I worked in the field outpatient clinic in Trnopolje, and

11 then I was also assigned to a clinic for the employees in the sawmill in

12 Kozarac.

13 During the weekend, we were on duty service, and I did my duty

14 service in Kozarac at the outpatient centre.

15 Q. Now, were you yourself living in Prijedor town?

16 A. I lived in Prijedor, yes.

17 Q. Up until the war started in Croatia, was there any difficulty or

18 animosity that you were aware of between the various ethnicities who

19 lived in Prijedor?

20 A. Until before the war in the former Yugoslavia, I never noticed

21 any problems between the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. Either way, I,

22 personally, never had any problems.

23 Q. Now I want to ask you specifically about Stojan Zupljanin.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this line

25 of questioning by Ms. Korner. What's the connection between what the

Page 18386

1 witness knows about Stojan Zupljanin and the adjudicated fact? As he

2 said at the beginning, he was called to testify about specific facts, and

3 the Prosecutor should adhere to that decision by the Trial Chamber from

4 June of this year.

5 This is the fifth or sixth time that the Prosecution is trying to

6 present evidence through the backdoor when witnesses were called to

7 testify about specific facts and their testimony is limited, as is our

8 cross-examination. In this way, the Prosecution wants to introduce

9 evidence through the backdoor, and the Defence does not have any

10 information that the witness would be testifying about these

11 circumstances. This line of questions and this attitude by the

12 Prosecution is in opposition of the decision of the Trial Chamber that

13 the witnesses would be called to testify about specific adjudicated

14 facts.

15 MS. KORNER: First of all, I gave notice in the proofing note

16 about this witness's knowledge of Stojan Zupljanin, which was sent to the

17 Defence last night at 7.45 and to the Trial Chamber as well.

18 Second, this witness is being called to deal with the attack on

19 Kozarac, which is Adjudicated Fact 844 through to 846, of which I also

20 gave notice, and part of that attack is the negotiations that took place

21 in order to try and prevent that attack with Stojan Zupljanin.

22 So it is not mere -- me merely asking for no good reason about

23 his knowledge of Stojan Zupljanin.

24 JUDGE HALL: Of course, in terms of the proofing note, that

25 couldn't enlarge the --

Page 18387

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm complaining about the complaint of

2 lack of notice.

3 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So it's the second part on which you're

4 concentrating.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes.

6 JUDGE HALL: The proofing note is really neither here nor there

7 in terms of the ruling of the Trial Chamber as to the limits of what this

8 is about.

9 MS. KORNER: I agree.

10 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

11 MS. KORNER: But it is -- it is pertinent to notice.

12 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Korner.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

14 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, doctor, about that. Could you tell us, did you

15 know Stojan Zupljanin before the war?

16 A. Yes, I did. I knew Mr. Zupljanin before the war.

17 Q. All right. And how did you know him?

18 A. I started in Banja Luka at the aero club in -- and I flew

19 aeroplanes that didn't have any engines, and then I moved on to sports

20 aircraft. And a few years before the war, Stojan Zupljanin was also a

21 member of this aero club. So that's where we know each other from, the

22 club in Banja Luka.

23 Q. Did you ever have any professional dealings with him as a police

24 officer?

25 A. Professionally or officially, no. We never had any contacts.

Page 18388

1 Q. All right. And from your knowledge of him gained through both of

2 you at this flying club, first of all, did you know what ethnicity he

3 was?

4 A. Just as now, back then I couldn't tell by the name whether

5 somebody was a Serb or a Croat. I could recognise Bosniaks or Muslims by

6 the names, because those names were a little more different. But before

7 the war, I never differentiated between people.

8 Q. All right. And in all the time you knew him, up until 1992,

9 obviously you -- when you were taken to Trnopolje, did you have -- did

10 you ever hear him express any kind of animosity to those who were not

11 Serb?

12 A. I never noticed him to say anything against me or Muslims. I --

13 I really can't say that.

14 Q. All right. Let's -- can we move, please, straight to the time

15 that Prijedor was taken over at the end of April.

16 Were you in Prijedor that day?

17 A. I was in Prijedor when the army occupied Prijedor. This was a

18 unit that had returned from the front in Croatia.

19 Q. All right. And were you able to get to work that day?

20 A. That day I managed to call in to the health centre in Prijedor.

21 They had occupied all the positions in all important places in Prijedor.

22 So in the morning, when I set off to work, I saw that there were

23 check-points where they were checking the cars and identity cards and we

24 realized that Prijedor had been occupied by the army. The health --

25 there was army in the health centre as well.

Page 18389

1 Q. Now, after that first day, did you carry on going to work at the

2 health centre in Kozarac?

3 A. I believe the first day I didn't go at all, and I think that

4 after that, I drove an ambulance to Trnopolje and to Kozarac.

5 Q. All right. And were there check-points between Prijedor and

6 Kozarac?

7 A. There were check-points between Prijedor and Kozarac.

8 Q. Can you tell us, are you able to remember - and please say so if

9 you can't - who was manning the check-points?

10 A. Men in military uniforms.

11 Q. All right. Can we then move, please, to shortly before the

12 events that took place in Kozarac.

13 Did you hear, or were you told, about ultimatums to the

14 inhabitants of Kozarac to surrender their weapons?

15 A. I heard that there were negotiations between Prijedor and Kozarac

16 and a delegation from Prijedor and Banja Luka, which included

17 Mr. Zupljanin. And I heard that an ultimatum was given at these

18 negotiations for Kozarac to surrender the weapons and for the police to

19 wear Serbian insignia or surrender.

20 Q. All right. And did you -- first of all I suppose I'll ask, who

21 did you hear this from? Was it from a member of that delegation?

22 A. No. I think this was third-hand information from somebody who

23 had heard from somebody who was present at that meeting. I think

24 Sadikovic, who was a doctor, a specialist, he attended that meeting. And

25 I think that the man who I heard it from had heard it from Sadikovic.

Page 18390

1 Q. Did you hear when that ultimatum was to expire? Whether a time

2 and a date was given.

3 A. Yes. Both the date and the time were specified.

4 Q. We know that the attack on Kozarac took place on the -- I think

5 it's the 24th of May. Was that the date that was specified?

6 A. As far as I heard, the date was the 24th, at noon.

7 Q. Before that date and that time, had you done anything in -- in

8 respect of -- of talking to people about the surrender of weapons?

9 A. I didn't talk to anybody personally about the surrender of

10 weapons.

11 Q. Did you talk to anybody -- well, first of all, perhaps I can deal

12 with it this way: Did you know someone called Sead Cirkin?

13 A. Sead Cirkin is somebody I saw in Kozarac, actually on the

14 suburbs. When I was at the outpatient centre in Kozarac, I was told that

15 there was a man called Sead Cirkin who was an active military personnel

16 and who had a group of people with him who were armed and who were

17 preparing to defend Kozarac. I asked a man to take me to see him.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. And I talked to him, and I asked him whether things been

20 supplied, whether there were any directions for us on how to behave, what

21 we were to do with the wounded if there were any, and he didn't have any

22 plan. In principle, he told me that I should organise things in the

23 outpatient centre as best we knew. There was no plan for the medical

24 service.

25 Q. All right. All right. On the day of the attack, what time did

Page 18391

1 the attack start?

2 A. I think soon after noon.

3 Q. And where were you when the attack started?

4 A. I was at the outpatient centre in Kozarac. There was a building

5 there which had several storeys, and that's the building that housed the

6 outpatient centre in Kozarac.

7 Q. At the time the attack started, how did you first become aware

8 that there was an attack going on?

9 A. There was shelling everywhere around. Shells fell on the

10 outpatient centre, in the yard. All the cars which were parked there

11 were destroyed.

12 Q. I'm afraid I can't show you any photographs, but can you tell us,

13 was -- the health centre on the outpatient centre, was there any marking

14 to show that it was a hospital or an outpatient ...

15 A. It was the only building. The other houses around were private

16 homes. And everybody knew that this building was a hospital or an

17 outpatient centre in Kozarac. And I believe that there was a red cross

18 on the roof.

19 Q. All right. Before the shelling started, had there been any

20 warning in the sense of somebody using a loud-hailer saying that if

21 people didn't surrender all their weapons now, they would be shelled?

22 Anything like that?

23 A. We didn't hear anything at the outpatient centre.

24 Q. So once the shelling started, what did you do?

25 A. What would you do? We hid. We thought first that we could stay

Page 18392

1 on the ground floor, but since all the windows were broken, we hid in the

2 basement.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... how many -- roughly how many

4 people were in that outpatient centre at the time the shelling started?

5 A. I had a list. There were more than ten of us, I think.

6 Q. All right. And were there casualties, as a result of the

7 shelling?

8 A. Soon after the shelling, a few people were wounded. One of them

9 was a Serbian soldier called Lugar. He had been shot in the stomach and

10 he was brought to the outpatient centre.

11 Another person was a civilian, but I don't know whether he had a

12 weapon. He was injured in the chest.

13 And then they brought in one other man who was already dead.

14 Q. All right. How long did the shelling go on?

15 A. Until the next morning.

16 Q. Other than those people that you've told us about, were there any

17 other injured who, during the course of those -- that shelling which went

18 on until the next morning, came to your clinic?

19 A. Because of the shelling, not many people could come to the health

20 centre because it was very dangerous to go outside. I recall these two

21 men because they had severe injuries and they couldn't walk on their own.

22 There was another young man, I think. A shrapnel almost cut off

23 his toe. It was hanging just by the skin.

24 Q. Now, you told us you were hiding in the basement. Eventually,

25 did you move out?

Page 18393

1 A. The next morning, the shelling was suspended for a short time,

2 for a few hours, so we used this time to move the outpatient centre to

3 the north, in the direction of Mount Kozara, on the outskirts of town.

4 We moved it to a house which was protected by the hill so shells couldn't

5 land there.

6 Q. Now, when you were there, did you receive other casualties?

7 A. There were several casualties there. Unfortunately, two of them

8 were very young children.

9 Q. Did you try to get any assistance for them?

10 A. We didn't have the conditions. There was nothing we could do.

11 Q. Doctor, where you were, were there -- where you had moved the

12 clinic to, were there any other part of the authorities at that building?

13 A. That building housed the police as well. They had a police car

14 there.

15 Q. All right. Did you ask them for any kind of assistance?

16 A. I tried, by using a radio station which the police used. I

17 introduced myself and I asked them to allow us to take the injured to

18 Prijedor.

19 Q. And did they allow you to do that?

20 A. No, they didn't.

21 Q. All right. And who had you been -- and who were you talking to?

22 A. I don't know who it was. But it was the same radio station which

23 was used to agree the surrender.

24 Q. All right. You may not know the person that you spoke to, but

25 did you understand from what part of the authorities they represented,

Page 18394

1 what part of the authorities they were?

2 A. I think it was the army.

3 Q. All right. Doctor, I'm sorry to have to ask you about these

4 events again, but, as you know, it's quite important.

5 All right. When they -- when you spoke to somebody, whether it

6 was the army or someone else, what sort of language did they use when

7 they told you that you -- that you couldn't move the children?

8 A. I think they said, Just go ahead and die, Balija. We'd kill you

9 soon enough anyway.

10 Q. All right. Having been refused this assistance, what -- what did

11 you decide to do?

12 A. Nothing. I went back. We were in the basement, and the police

13 were up above us, on the first floor. So we just waited.

14 Q. And how long did you remain there?

15 A. Until the next day.

16 Q. All right. And how did you come to leave?

17 A. The police managed to broker the surrender of Kozarac. They

18 informed us that it had been agreed that the wounded would be the first

19 to be allowed to leave. And then the police and the civilians would also

20 be allowed to leave Kozarac two by two.

21 Q. So did you make the preparations for -- for leaving?

22 A. We organised for the wounded to use those trucks owned by Azra's

23 husband. There was Lugar there, another civilian who had sustained an

24 injury to his chest, and a child whose leg had been shattered. The

25 other, a little girl who was there, had died.

Page 18395

1 Q. Now, you've mentioned Azra. Who was that?

2 A. Azra Blasavic was a vet who was there with us throughout.

3 Q. Now, before you actually left, did anybody arrive?

4 A. What do you mean? No one arrived.

5 Q. All right. Where did you -- all right. So you left, did you, in

6 the truck; and where did you go?

7 A. No. Azra's husband left with the truck and the wounded. The

8 rest of us went back to the clinic in Kozarac.

9 Q. All right. At the clinic in Kozarac, did anyone arrive?

10 A. After that, three uniformed men arrived.

11 Q. Can you describe, please, the uniforms that were worn by these

12 men.

13 A. Two of them wore camouflage. One of them wore a red beret. And

14 a third, a blue camouflage uniform. The latter was called Skrbic,

15 Dragan Skrbic.

16 Q. I'd like to you have a look please, first of all, at

17 Exhibit P1033.

18 MS. KORNER: Perhaps we can just blow it up a bit. Yeah.

19 Q. You said one of them was camouflage with a red beret. Is that

20 the sort uniform and red beret that you're talking about?

21 A. Yes, that's right. That's the uniform.

22 Q. Thank you. All right.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, do we have a tab number for this

24 exhibit, please?

25 MS. KORNER: It's tab ... tab ...

Page 18396

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have it as 41. Thank you.

2 MS. KORNER: All right.

3 Q. And now could you have a look, please, at a short clip from a

4 video which is V000-8836, which is tab ...

5 [Video-clip played]

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MS. KORNER: Stop there.

8 Q. You say one of them was wearing blue camouflage. Is that the

9 sort of uniform that you're describing?

10 A. Yes, it is. Just like that. They all had the same arm-band, I

11 think, on the left arm. The same colour.

12 Q. All right.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I said -- I think that's P -- tab 42.

14 Sorry, P1393.

15 Q. Right. Now, you say the same arm-bands. Were -- was just the

16 man with the blue camouflage wearing an arm-band or all of them?

17 A. All of them. All the soldiers who came to Kozarac wore one.

18 Q. All right. Doctor, I know you're a bit upset. Would you like to

19 take a break now, or are you happy to carry on for a bit longer?

20 A. I'm ready to press on. Thank you.

21 Q. All right. So these three people arrived in uniform. And what

22 did they do?

23 A. The one with the red beret was very nervous. He kept saying we

24 should all be shot. And then they noticed Goga, who wore a name tag on

25 her overcoat. She was a Serb, and they led her across the way from the

Page 18397

1 rest of the group and spoke to her. Dragan Skrbic told us to wait there

2 until she was back. And he was gone for some time. When he was back, he

3 said a truck would be coming along and we were to load all of our things

4 onto that truck and would then be taken away. But that was all he said.

5 Q. And did a truck arrive?

6 A. Yes. We loaded all of our medicine that we had in the clinic

7 onto it. And then we were marched one by one from the clinic to what was

8 virtually a crossing, cross-roads, in Kozarac. We stood there for a

9 short time, waiting.

10 Q. When you were marched, is that the cross-roads that's at the end

11 of Kozarac with the -- the junction with the Prijedor road?

12 A. No. This is a junction within Kozarac itself.

13 Q. All right. What could you see happening in the -- in the town of

14 Kozarac?

15 A. In the town itself, there were very many soldiers. They went

16 into houses; they searched these houses; they tried to get into cars and

17 ignite the engines. Some of them were just standing. As soon as we

18 reached the junction in Kozarac, there were two tanks there. The place

19 was teeming with soldiers, some moving and some stationery.

20 Q. The tanks that you saw there, what kind of tanks were they? Were

21 you able -- because of your military service were you able to identify

22 them?

23 A. Those were military tanks. I'm not sure about the type or make.

24 Q. Apart from tanks, did you see any other kind of vehicles that

25 belonged to either the police or the army?

Page 18398

1 MR. KRGOVIC: I object to that. I mean, it's leading, obviously.

2 MS. KORNER: I don't think it is, Your Honours. I'm asking

3 whether he saw any other vehicles that belonged to either the police or

4 the army. I cannot, for the life of me, see why that's leading. He's

5 just described tanks which he said were army.

6 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed.

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

8 Q. Sorry, doctor. Can you answer that? Did you see any other

9 vehicles that were either police or army vehicles?

10 A. I can't say with certainty right now.

11 Q. That's fine.

12 What about damage? You've explained how the place was shelled

13 for effectively nearly 24 hours. What sort of damage had been done by

14 the shelling?

15 A. There were branches from trees lying on the ground. Pock marks

16 on the walls of some of the surrounding houses. Holes went through the

17 roofs. Pock marks on the road as well from bits of shrapnel. And shells

18 exploding, leaving holes in the road, some small and some bigger. There

19 was a lot of that.

20 Q. We know -- we know that Kozarac had, I think, at least two

21 mosques. Did you see whether they'd been damaged during this?

22 A. I wasn't paying attention. Those were further north. I think

23 one is across the road from the house where we were, and I believe it was

24 a sheltered house, but I'm not certain.

25 Q. That's fine. All right. There you are at the cross-roads from

Page 18399

1 Kozarac; where did you go from there?

2 A. After a while, a military jeep arrived. But before they put us

3 into that jeep, a soldier came up to Bahonjic, Nihad, our ambulance

4 driver, and ID'd him. When he showed his ID, the other man took hem

5 away. Right after, the military jeep arrived. We were told to get into

6 it. I simply asked in passing what had become of Nihad Bahonjic and they

7 said they were taking care of him. We headed out in that jeep, left

8 Kozarac, and took a right turn towards Prijedor.

9 Q. Now, what happened to Nihad Bahonjic, who had been taken off by

10 these soldiers?

11 A. We heard shots. I don't know whether that was when they killed

12 him or not. But no one ever saw him again. I don't even know whether

13 his body was ever found.

14 Q. All right. So you go towards Prijedor, and where do you end up?

15 A. Basically we got as far as a cafe further down the road on the

16 left-hand side. We took a turn there and stopped. There were many

17 soldiers in that cafe, even high-ranking officers; many of them, in fact.

18 We waited there. We got out of the jeep. Soon a bus arrived full of

19 women and children, coming from Prijedor. There was this one man whose

20 name was Husidic; they led him away. I heard they accused him of being a

21 member of the Green Berets and they wanted to take him away, but his wife

22 was there with two young children and she pleaded with them to let him

23 go. We confirmed that that wasn't true. Then we said that there was a

24 man in the clinic with us, the highest-ranking man, and he was to get on

25 the bus with us. But then they went back for him and took him away to

Page 18400

1 Omarska.

2 Q. And how did you learn that he had been taken to Omarska?

3 A. Well, as far as our team was concerned, when we all stuck

4 together, they took him, Dr. Pasic, and Dr. Mensur Kusuran. They took

5 them to Omarska. They were with us in the clinic. They came to the

6 clinic and took them away at different points in time.

7 Q. All right. Sorry, I think we -- it may be me, but there's slight

8 confusion going on.

9 You talked about the man who they were accusing of being a

10 Green Beret. And --

11 A. The Green Berets.

12 Q. Do you mean -- did he come with you - as you were going to tell

13 us - to Trnopolje and then was he taken, or was he taken away at that

14 stage?

15 A. No. He was first released and allowed to get on that bus with

16 us. He arrived with us in Trnopolje, and then they took him from there

17 to Omarska.

18 Q. All right. And the doctors that you've named, perhaps you could

19 name then again because it doesn't seem to have gone on to the LiveNote.

20 Who were the two doctors?

21 A. Two doctors: Dr. Jusuf Pasic and Dr. Mensur Kusuran.

22 Q. You said they, too, were taken away at different times. Is that,

23 again, from Trnopolje?

24 A. From Trnopolje. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. So can we just establish - and I should have asked you

Page 18401

1 earlier - which of you from the clinic had been taken by these armed men

2 to the cafe. Yourself and who else?

3 A. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking me.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right. You've told us

5 these soldiers arrived -- or these -- not soldiers. These armed men

6 arrived at your clinic and that they then --

7 A. Yes, in Kozarac.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in Kozarac. Then you went

9 to this cross-roads and then you were picked up and taken to the cafe.

10 Who was with you?

11 A. They took us to that cafe in a military jeep. We didn't actually

12 enter there. We were standing by the road. There is another road

13 forking off there, a dirt track not an asphalt road, that leaves the

14 asphalt road at one point and heads out towards Trnopolje. We were all

15 standing there in a group.

16 Q. All right. And what I'm just trying to get at - and it's my

17 fault; I'm obviously not making myself clear - is when you say "they took

18 us," who did they take? Who were the other people who was take -- who

19 were taken, apart from yourself?

20 A. The entire team from Kozarac except for Nihad Bahonjic. Not

21 Nihad Bahonjic. We were all taken together. Azra, the vet; another vet

22 who was there; Dzolagic; Mujo and Babica; Goga, the Serb; a lady named

23 Lejla; Husidic; a wife and husband.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right. Had any of you

25 got any weapons of any kind?

Page 18402

1 A. No, no weapons at all.

2 Q. Did anybody, of the people who had taken you there, search you to

3 see if you had weapons?

4 A. Azra Blazevic was the only one who had a back-pack. The others

5 had nothing at all. I can't remember, but I think perhaps back in

6 Kozarac they checked the back-pack.

7 Q. All right. Just before we break, then, eventually, were you

8 taken on this bus to Trnopolje?

9 A. That's right. We got onto the bus, and there were mostly women

10 and children there. From there, we were taken straight to Trnopolje.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that probably is a sensible place to

12 break, I mean, because I'm going to deal with Trnopolje.

13 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.

14 So we take the break, and we would resume in 20 minutes.

15 Thank you.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I just ask, does your ruling mean

21 that I can't show him the photographs?

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, Ms. Korner. Since they not on the

24 65 ter list and will not be admitted to the 65 ter list, you may show

25 them and confront the witness with them, but that's it.

Page 18403

1 MS. KORNER: All right.

2 [The witness takes the stand]

3 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, could we now deal with Trnopolje.

4 When you got there that first day, you obviously knew Trnopolje

5 because there was a clinic there. Was there anything to show why you'd

6 been brought there?

7 A. Not that I noticed. Except there were many soldiers around, many

8 women and children. But that was the extent of what I noticed.

9 Q. Was there anything to show that this was a place where people

10 were going to be staying? Let's use a neutral word for the time being.

11 A. No, nothing.

12 Q. All right. When you arrived there, where did you go?

13 A. We arrived there by bus, and we stopped on a road that is - how

14 shall I put it? - south or south-west of Prijedor in the direction of

15 Trnopolje, the bus stopped there. And there's a path that takes you to

16 that place. To the right, there was some soldiers standing or sitting,

17 and we headed towards this building, all of the people who were on the

18 bus.

19 There were those of us from the clinic who wore our white coats.

20 Rade Baltic was there wearing civilian clothes. He knew me because he

21 used to be a patient of mine. They said that all of us wearing doctor's

22 coats should go to the clinic in Trnopolje.

23 Q. Right. Now, I'm going to ask to you look at the photograph,

24 please. And I'm afraid it's a modern photograph, because I can't show

25 you any of the earlier ones.

Page 18404

1 MS. KORNER: Could we have up on the screen, please -- just a

2 moment. Let me just check for a moment which is the right one. Yes.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, it's ... 3419.85, tab 11.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, while the photo is coming up.

6 Doctor, when you say "soldiers," "there were many soldiers

7 around," do you mean military or do you mean armoured men in general?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armed men wearing military

9 uniforms. And I think those people used to be civilians before then.

10 One of them recognised me. It was a young lad who was at the airport in

11 Prijedor and so was his father. He was not active-duty military

12 personnel. Those were men who were obviously mobilized for purposes of

13 war.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: Actually, I'm told -- I'm sorry, thank you.

16 Q. Well, let's stick with that one for the moment. Then I can show

17 you one that's closer to the time we're talking about, because it was on

18 our list.

19 Can you indicated there - you will be given a pen by the usher

20 and you're able to draw on the screen - whether we can -- this is -- this

21 was only taken last year, but whether -- where the clinic was.

22 I'm sorry. Stop that.

23 This is an overhead view of Trnopolje as it is, effectively,

24 today. Did it look the same in 1992?

25 A. Yes, roughly the same.

Page 18405

1 Q. All right. And can you indicate, please, by drawing a circle,

2 where exactly the camp was. What buildings were included in what became

3 the Trnopolje camp.

4 A. This is the school building. Should I make a marking here?

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, could you -- could you

6 mark A so we can -- could you write the letter A as the school building.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. This was the courtyard of the school. The clinic is here. And

10 this is the hall. And what you see here is the local commune building.

11 This was a shop where you could buy construction material. At different

12 times, this area here served different purposes. At some points in time,

13 it belonged to the camp, at some points it didn't. It was like this,

14 roughly speak.

15 Q. Okay. Could you mark B by the clinic; and C by the hall.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And then the shop, could you mark D.

18 A. Yes, sure.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. Now I want to deal with this point

20 straight away. When you arrived, you told us there was nothing to

21 indicate this was a place that people were going to be staying in. At

22 any stage, was -- was something put up to show that this was a camp?

23 A. Trnopolje camp was, in a way, a dynamic place, because things

24 kept changing there. It was only at one point in time, just before the

25 journalists came, that Keraterm camp had been disbanded all together, and

Page 18406

1 Omarska to some extent, too. And some of the people there were

2 transferred to Trnopolje, so a temporary fence was built and was soon

3 pulled back down after it appeared on TV all over the place.

4 Q. Right. And we're going to see that fence eventually.

5 Did the fence follow the lines that you've drawn to indicate the

6 area which was the camp?

7 A. No, it didn't.

8 Q. Where did -- it may be a bit difficult, but can you indicate

9 where the fence was when it was up? If you're finding it too

10 difficult -- I know you did a diagram at the time, doctor, but it would

11 help if you could just indicate --

12 A. No problem at all. No problem at all. I can do it on this

13 image.

14 There was already a fence here. The shop that was there already

15 had a fence. And when they set up the fence, they built one from this

16 fence to the end of the hall, and then this area there was also fenced

17 off. That was the only fence that stood for a short time. The others

18 were already in existence. The school had a fence, which was very low;

19 and then there was a fence in front of the clinic, which was also rather

20 low.

21 Q. All right. Yes, thank you very much, doctor. That's all I'm

22 going to ask you about that photograph.

23 MS. KORNER: Could that be separately exhibited, Your Honour,

24 then, please.

25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

Page 18407

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1770, Your Honours.

2 MS. KORNER: I think Mr. Aleksic wants to say something.

3 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. Now

4 it's already been given an exhibit number. It might be good that the

5 area that the doctor marked as having a fence should receive a different

6 number so that it's clear. Or maybe it should be marked with a different

7 colour or have the letter F so we would know what's what.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I did think about that, but I think

9 it's pretty clear. But, I mean, we could --

10 Q. Doctor, can you -- where you drew that fence which we can see

11 surrounding it, can you just mark the letter F to the right-hand side.

12 A. Do you mean the fence that was in existence before or the one

13 that was constructed?

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... no, the one that was

15 constructed, please, which you marked for us.

16 A. The one that was constructed is this area here. And this area

17 here, on this side. The fence lower down was already in existence.

18 Q. All right.

19 JUDGE HALL: Is there another colour available that -- although

20 he's already marked it in red, if there's another colour available, if he

21 just follows the same line, perhaps that would ...

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the constructed fence is this

24 area and this area.

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 18408

1 Q. Yes, that's very helpful.

2 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

3 Q. Thank you, doctor. All right.

4 And can we just very quickly have a look, please, at a photograph

5 that, as I say, is -- was taken nearer the time. And that's 0 -- sorry,

6 2483, which is tab 3.

7 MS. KORNER: 65 ter 2483.

8 Anybody? Is it ... I don't really want -- oh.

9 Q. Doctor, the two buildings there that we can see in the

10 foreground, can you just identify those for us, please.

11 A. The one on the right is the school in Trnopolje; and, on the

12 left, in the front you can see the shop, the clinic, the local commune on

13 the first floor, the sports club. And behind it you can see the hall,

14 the hall that was there.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

17 please.

18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1771, Your Honours.

20 MS. KORNER: All right.

21 Q. Now, doctor, at what stage -- you arrived towards the end of May,

22 obviously, because it was a couple of days after the shelling. At what

23 stage did Trnopolje become this camp?

24 A. We noticed that more and more women and children arrived each day

25 and that nobody was leaving. The smaller number of men who were there

Page 18409

1 were separated and placed in the school. And eventually, when there were

2 loads of people and you were unable to fit any more in, convoys were

3 organised. And this convoy went from Trnopolje to move these people

4 towards Sarajevo through the territory of Doboj.

5 In principle, already after a few days, since there was army

6 around and there were check-points around, there was no freedom of

7 movement; it was not possible to enter or leave without being checked.

8 So we realized and it became clear to us that it was what became called a

9 camp, or a prison. There was no freedom of movement.

10 Q. All right. Now, you've said that more and more women and

11 children arrived. How were they arriving at the camp at the -- at

12 Trnopolje?

13 A. They were most frequently brought in by buses.

14 Q. You say that it became a camp or a prison. There was no freedom

15 of movement. Were people allowed to leave Trnopolje if they wanted to?

16 For example, yourself. Did you want to stay in Trnopolje?

17 A. I was not allowed to leave Trnopolje.

18 Q. What about other people? You've told us that people were taken

19 out, convoys were organised. What about the other men who were there,

20 were they allowed to leave?

21 A. Only women and children and people over the age of 65, who were

22 not able-bodied, to leave the camp. Those who were able-bodied had to

23 stay. Only very few such people came to Trnopolje.

24 There was something called the mopping up of villages. They

25 would surround a village, and army or police - I don't know who - would

Page 18410

1 enter the village; they would force the people out of their homes; line

2 them up; single out the women, children, and elderly on one side; they

3 would be sent to Trnopolje. Some of these people were killed or are

4 missing. Some were taken to Keraterm. Some to Omarska. And a smaller

5 group of people who either had some connections or somebody helped them,

6 a Serb helped them, were sent to Trnopolje because that was deemed to be

7 the best place for men to be. They allowed men to leave the camp only

8 after the visit by the journalists.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. And one more thing - I'm sorry. Those who came to Trnopolje,

11 those men who came to Trnopolje, were still sometimes called out by name

12 and they would be taken to Omarska or somewhere else or they were beaten.

13 So not everybody who came to Trnopolje was safe.

14 Q. Now, you said that you weren't allowed to leave. There were

15 check-points. What else was preventing you from leaving? Were there

16 guards at this place?

17 A. Of course. At the check-points and the drawing that I made

18 previously, there were check-points there guarded by armed men, by guards

19 who had weapons. These guards changed every few weeks, and new people

20 would come every few weeks. Major Kuruzovic, who came a few days after

21 the first days, stayed the same, and a few other people stayed along with

22 him.

23 Q. What about -- you told us about guards. Were the guards armed?

24 A. Of course they were armed.

25 Q. Were those personal arms? In other words, rifles or the like, or

Page 18411

1 were there other weapons there?

2 A. At the check-points, there were other weapons as well. But it

3 depended on the unit that was there to guard the camp.

4 Q. All right. And were you -- do you know who these men were? I

5 mean, you say they were uniformed -- or I don't think you say,

6 actually -- you say they were guards. Do you know where they came from?

7 A. One group which rotated more frequently than the others were from

8 the neighbouring villages. But there were others as well who, when they

9 came to rest from the front, would be dispatched there. For a while they

10 all were sent to the front, so some older people were brought in. They

11 were mainly men who had been mobilized, not active, professional military

12 personnel.

13 Q. All right. Yes, sorry, I'm just thinking for a moment.

14 Did you -- there were check-points, you say. Were there any

15 check-points or any armed people within the area of the camp itself?

16 A. In the camp, inside the circle that I drew, there weren't any.

17 Only around.

18 Q. Can I then turn, please, to the conditions -- sorry, the convoys

19 that you talked about.

20 How did people leave the camp? In what sort of transport?

21 A. We usually heard a day before that a convoy would go the next

22 day. Then reinforcement would arrive. A man called Beric came with

23 them. And then they moved from the camp towards the railway station.

24 They were lined up. And then the women and the children walked along the

25 middle of the street, two by two, and they checked to make sure that

Page 18412

1 there were no men in these groups. If there was somebody who had a good

2 friend who was a Serb, then they would manage to have a man included.

3 And then these people were loaded onto cattle wagons.

4 Q. Right. So this was at the station, was it?

5 A. Yes. At Trnopolje.

6 Q. And you say you were on cattle wagons. Was there seating in

7 them?

8 A. No, there wasn't.

9 MS. KORNER: I see "temperature" has come up on the screen. Was

10 there seating in "them," I asked, at line 8.

11 Q. And how full were these cattle wagons?

12 A. I replied already. Of course, they tried to get as many people

13 in there as they could.

14 Q. And what was the weather like at this time of year?

15 A. It was summer down there, so it was very, very hot.

16 Q. All right. Let's deal with the conditions that were at Trnopolje

17 until the journalists and then the ICRC arrived.

18 Food. Was that supplied by the guards or Major Kuruzovic?

19 A. There was no organised food distribution. But in the beginning,

20 they allowed the locals from the neighbouring places to bring food to the

21 people in the camp. There was some Serbs who brought food.

22 Q. All right. You say "in the beginning they allowed locals ..."

23 How long did that go on that?

24 A. That went on until these locals were forced out of their homes

25 and expelled.

Page 18413

1 Q. All right. So how was food provided thereafter?

2 A. At the end of May, the Serbian Red Cross arrived, and we managed

3 to arrange through them to have milk brought in for young children, and

4 they collected money from people who were in the camp and then they

5 bought bread, which they brought in the next day. And then they

6 distributed this bread to the people who had given money for it.

7 At one point -- this was all at different points in time, but at

8 one point they organised sort of a military kitchen. There was a

9 makeshift stove on which it was possible to cook. However, this was

10 nothing for that large number of people. And afterwards, when the

11 International Red Cross arrived, then we had food regularly.

12 Q. All right. And we may as well get the date. When did the

13 International Red Cross arrive?

14 A. In mid-August.

15 Q. What about accommodation? Was there sufficient rooms in the

16 buildings that you've shown us to accommodate these people?

17 A. When they would empty the camp after a convoy would leave, they

18 would start bringing in more and more people, so then space would run

19 out. At one point, some people had to sleep outside on the ground.

20 Q. Sanitary facilities - running water, toilets, baths - did they

21 exist?

22 A. There were no bathrooms, of course. We only had running water

23 for the first two or three days, but it was dirty so it was cut off. The

24 toilets in the school were soon blocked, so they dug latrines outdoors

25 where you could then use the toilet. They constructed little cubicles.

Page 18414

1 Q. All right. Was that sufficient for when the camp was full,

2 before convoys took them off?

3 A. Of course not.

4 Q. Medical supplies. You told us that before you left Kozarac you

5 had taken such medical supplies as you could from the clinic. Were you

6 given more?

7 A. No. No, that's not correct. I said that we loaded all the

8 medicine from Kozarac on the truck, but they drove off with that. We

9 never saw any of that medicine again. We didn't have any medical

10 supplies.

11 Q. All right. Did you treat people at the clinic? In -- sorry, in

12 Trnopolje, not in Kozarac.

13 A. As best we could, using the supplies that we had at the clinic.

14 We had very limited supplies. Some medicine was left over. We sometimes

15 received things from the locals. And when the International Red Cross

16 arrived, they talked to me and asked me what I needed, so then they would

17 bring things. Dusko Ivic, a doctor, visited the camp, and a man called

18 Mico who was a technician. He was a Serb. And they brought us some

19 powder against lice so those who had lice could use the powder.

20 Q. Now, what sort of injuries were you treating at your clinic in

21 Trnopolje?

22 A. As for injuries, they were just injuries sustained during

23 beatings and injuries caused by knives.

24 Q. When were the beatings taking place? And who was doing the

25 beating?

Page 18415

1 A. Most of the beatings in that period before the arrival of the

2 journalists and the arrival of the International Red Cross happened then.

3 Later, they were very rare. Uniformed people would always come. Some of

4 them we knew and some of them we didn't.

5 Q. And what would they do?

6 A. They either brought themselves or they would call people out by

7 their names, take them into a room. It was one room where these people

8 were brought. They might have been taken elsewhere as well, but I don't

9 know that, and that's where they were beaten. Afterwards these people

10 were most frequently taken away. A smaller number of them were brought

11 to us to see whether there was anything that we could do for them.

12 Q. And the room that they were being taken to, where was that?

13 A. It was in the clinic.

14 Q. Now, at various stages, were photographs taken of what the room

15 looked like and of some of the beaten people?

16 A. Yes. We managed to make a very, very small number of such

17 photographs.

18 Q. Was this a camera that -- that -- that Azra Blazevic had?

19 A. Yes. It was Azra Blazevic's camera. And we hid it in a water

20 tank because there was no water.

21 Q. And, eventually, as we'll see when we watch the video, were you

22 able to smuggle out a film with Penny Marshall and the ITN crew?

23 A. When Penny Marshall visited for the first time, we managed to

24 give her the camera. She wanted to take out the film and return the

25 camera, but we were afraid that they would find it, so we asked her to

Page 18416

1 take it away.

2 Q. Can I ask you, please, now to have a look at just some of the

3 photographs.

4 MS. KORNER: First of all, could we have a look at, I think it's

5 tab 20, and the number that it was given, 10611, please.

6 Q. What does that show us, Dr. Merdzanic?

7 A. That's the room where the people were beaten.

8 On one occasion, we managed to take a photo so that you could see

9 the blood.

10 Q. And if we look, please, at the next one, which I think is the

11 same; it's 10612.

12 A. It's the same room from another angle.

13 Q. And can we look, finally, I think, at two -- sorry. It's 10613.

14 That's, as we'll see, the one that was particularly displayed on

15 the video. Who is that young man?

16 A. That's Nedjo, who they beat. Nedjo Jakupovic.

17 JUDGE HALL: Doctor, if you need to take a break, we will, of

18 course, accommodate you.

19 Should we take a five-minutes' break?

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think it might be -- well, I -- I'm

21 not -- if I can just show him the next photographs. Well, actually, I

22 don't think I need bother.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let me hear from --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's all right. We can

25 continue. We can continue.

Page 18417

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Thank you.

2 MS. KORNER:

3 Q. Thank you very much, doctor. I'm not going to ask you to look at

4 any more photographs because we'll see those later in the video.

5 These beatings that took place in this room, were people being

6 questioned whilst they were at Trnopolje? Anybody.

7 A. I know that some were questioned. And I have no idea why some of

8 the others were beaten. We weren't there. I know about the ones they

9 brought over to us to have a look. But they would always accuse them of

10 something or other.

11 Q. Now, apart from beatings, were there any deaths as a result of

12 this kind of violence?

13 A. Yes. I can't remember the name; it's somewhere in my statement,

14 the person's name. There were many more of those whom they would first

15 beat and take away somewhere outside the camp to shoot them.

16 Q. Did you know a family called Foric?

17 A. No, not personally. I do, however, know that one day they were

18 looking for someone named Foric. They took them away, took them down the

19 road to the railway station and killed them there. There were five or

20 six persons involved in that.

21 Q. And who did you hear that from?

22 A. I saw them being taken away. Azra said that they had killed

23 them, as well as other inmates. I think it was Curkus, on behalf of the

24 Serbian Red Cross, who organised to bury their bodies.

25 Q. What about some people called Murgic?

Page 18418

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

2 know how -- what this has to do with adjudicated facts and which

3 particular adjudicated fact this is in relation to, this isolated

4 incident that Ms. Korner is addressing now. I have not been able to

5 establish any links between this and any of the adjudicated facts.

6 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner.

7 MS. KORNER: I'm just finding it, thank you, Your Honour, if

8 Your Honours require me to answer this.

9 Your Honours, if you look at Adjudicated Fact 1031. On or about

10 the 1st of October, 1992, people were removed from Trnopolje camp on

11 signing an agreement to relinquish all of their material goods - crossed

12 out, in other words - thus the Trnopolje camp was the culmination of the

13 campaign of ethnic cleansing ... since those Muslims and Croats were not

14 killed at Omarska or Keraterm camps but were from Trnopolje ... deported

15 from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Your Honour, in our submission, ethnic cleansing includes

17 killings in camps.

18 JUDGE HALL: Yes. But how does this -- how -- how does this --

19 this enter the particulars of the family to whom -- of whom you're now?

20 Inquiring.

21 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry?

22 JUDGE HALL: How does the indicated adjudicated -- disputed

23 adjudicated fact allow for the questions on the -- about the particular

24 family of whom you're now inquiring?

25 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, in order to establish evidence

Page 18419

1 that ethnic cleansing took place, the more that I can have people named,

2 as is the argument over exhumations and everything else in this

3 indictment, the better, I would have thought. Other than simply saying,

4 I can't remember who was killed, or I can't remember, but hundreds were.

5 He can actually name people who wer killed.

6 And if there's another definition of ethnic cleansing, then I'd

7 be grateful to be told what it is.

8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I understand, the

10 definition of ethnic cleansing cannot form part of the adjudicated facts.

11 There is no such crime as ethnic cleansing. I don't think I've ever come

12 across it. What do these specific incidents tell us? We are clearly

13 addressing specific incidents not mentioned in the indictment. And yet

14 Ms. Korner is questioning the witness about these. Even if we adopt the

15 broadest possible interpretation, we cannot see them as part of the

16 adjudicated facts.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, of course there's no crime of ethnic

18 cleansing; ethnic cleansing is a journalistic term, I suppose, adopted by

19 all to describe a number of crimes, which include murder, beatings,

20 deportation, persecutions, if you like. And, Your Honour, I submit that

21 it is perfectly proper to ask these questions in the light of the

22 adjudicated facts which were disallowed.

23 JUDGE HALL: And I take it that your questions, Ms. Korner --

24 you're -- what you're saying, in essence, is that the witness who is able

25 to testify to particular instances, it is from that that at the

Page 18420

1 appropriate time that you would ask the Chamber to draw such inference --

2 the reasonable inferences?

3 MS. KORNER: Yes.

4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please proceed.

5 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

6 Q. Right. Sorry, again, doctor. Can you tell us, please, did you

7 know some people who were at Trnopolje called Murgic?

8 A. Murgic, father and son. They were also taken away down the road

9 to the railway station and then onto the fish pond. They killed both of

10 them. They were ethnic Croats. He was married to a lady who was a Serb.

11 The lady would come to our camp to ask questions about what had become of

12 her son and husband.

13 Q. All right. And do you know why these particular people were

14 taken away like this and then -- and then killed?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Now, you've told us that there were numbers of women in the camp.

17 Did anything happen to them which came to your attention as the doctor?

18 A. Rape did occur.

19 Q. Was that something that happened on -- on a regular basis, or was

20 it very occasional that somebody complained that they'd been raped?

21 A. I think it was a very frequent occurrence. Only a small number

22 of the ladies who -- came to us to seek help. But from the time the

23 International Red Cross came, there were no rapes anymore. And then,

24 later on - and I can't be very specific about the point in time -

25 normally there were those men, a group, referred to as Los Manijakos. At

Page 18421

1 one point I spoke to Dr. Dusko Ivic. There were women there who came to

2 speak to him, saying they were willing to go to Prijedor to be examined

3 by a gynaecologist. He then probably spoke to Major Kuruzovic and

4 approved this. He took those women to Prijedor to be examined.

5 When he was back, he said it had been confirmed that those women

6 had been raped.

7 Q. All right. Did you try to do anything about these rapes --

8 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Ms. Korner.

9 Doctor, in the first part of your answer, if I understand the

10 first two responses, the first two sentences, you said that rape was a

11 frequent occurrence and then you said only a small number of persons came

12 to us to seek help, and then you went on to talk about the visits that

13 some of the women made to a different doctor who is a ... on what basis

14 did you conclude that rape was a frequent occurrence? Because if I

15 understood your first two answers correctly, only a small number of

16 persons actually came to -- to see you, although you were an inmate, you

17 were also a medically trained person.

18 Do you understand my question?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

20 For two reasons: One reason was, from the window of our clinic,

21 we could see where men in uniform went into those rooms where the women

22 were. They would take them away and bring them back the next morning.

23 The other reason - I'm assuming that that was the case - is this:

24 A very small number of women, because of feelings of shame and

25 embarrassment, wanted to publicly state that they had been subjected to

Page 18422

1 rape [as interpreted]. Nevertheless, from our window, we could see women

2 being taken away.

3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

4 Please continue, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Did you ever try to do anything about these rapes?

7 A. Aside from being able to agree with Dusko Ivic that those women

8 should be taken to Prijedor for an examination, there was nothing else we

9 could do to help those ladies. We simply advised them to form a convoy.

10 And when there was a sufficient number of them gathered, the women and

11 children would be able to leave quite soon. As soon as they left the

12 territory, they should go and talk to a gynaecologist. That's what I

13 advised them to do.

14 Q. And, by and large, who was committing these rapes? Who were the

15 people who were taking these women out?

16 A. Because of something that happened once, I know that the group

17 was called El Manijakos. There were probably other men there who were

18 not El Manijakos. Why do I know that? Because one day they arrived in

19 Trnopolje in two tanks. They quarreled with Major Kuruzovic right in the

20 middle of the street, who'd allowed for those women to be taken to

21 Prijedor to be examined. I heard --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

23 be asked to repeat the last part of his answer. Thank you.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, doctor, the interpreters didn't pick up what your

Page 18423

1 last answer -- how your last answer ended.

2 You said: "They quarreled with Major Kuruzovic right in the

3 middle of the street because he'd allowed for the women to be taken to

4 Prijedor to be examined," and then ... what did you hear?

5 A. Yes. I said I heard that one of their soldiers in the military

6 barracks had been placed in custody. I also heard that they went down

7 there in their tanks and set this soldier free. I'm not sure if that's

8 true or not.

9 Q. All right. Now, I want you, briefly, please, to have a look at a

10 report that was done on Prijedor on the 18th of August.

11 MS. KORNER: Could we have up, please, Exhibit P602. And it's

12 the first page in English and the second page in B/C/S. The second page

13 in B/C/S, please. Thank you.

14 Q. If you look at the -- in the -- in your -- in the B/C/S language,

15 doctor, the second paragraph. This is a description - and it's the last

16 paragraph in English - about Trnopolje, done in August.

17 It states, in the middle:

18 "From the 24th of May 1992, a large number of citizens of Muslim

19 ethnicity of both sexes and all age groups sought protection in the

20 centre."

21 Now, had you or anyone else that you spoke to there sought

22 protection in the centre?

23 A. We didn't seek protection from anyone. One thing I have to say:

24 The moment the International Red Cross arrived, and UNHCR as well, the

25 moment they recorded all of the inmates that they found there who were

Page 18424

1 not already gone, the moment it became known that the

2 International Red Cross and the UNHCR would be evacuating those persons

3 from the camp, others tried to get into Trnopolje as well to get their

4 names on that list which would then enable them to leave the area. Some

5 people succeeded in this. Some of the Serbs who were there would

6 occasionally help a friend and they would make it possible for some

7 people to access Trnopolje.

8 Q. Well, then, you see, this report goes on to say, after saying

9 there was about 1500 of Muslim and Croat citizens there, and the number

10 fluctuates from what you tell us you would agree with, they say:

11 "No special records were kept since the citizens can leave it and

12 go in any direction they want whenever they feel like it."

13 Was that true?

14 A. That was not true. Aside from that, no special records were kept

15 with first and last names. That much is true. But people were not free

16 to leave as they liked. Only upon approval could anyone leave.

17 Q. Then they talk about the advantage of the Trnopolje railway

18 station and trains operating.

19 Apart from the women who were packed onto the trains in the

20 cattle wagons that you've told us about, was anybody else using the

21 railway station from the camp?

22 A. Until the journalists came, the Muslims were not free to use that

23 railway station.

24 Q. All right. And then it goes on to say --

25 MS. KORNER: If we can go to the next page in English, briefly.

Page 18425

1 Q. -- that there was permanent outpatient medical protection which

2 had been organised in the centre before -- again, let's deal with before

3 the journalists and before the Red Cross arrived. Was that correct?

4 A. That was not correct. Depending what activities they had in mind

5 here. They came there, there were some activities, but not enough. As I

6 said, they got some money from the inmates to buy bread. They would

7 bring that there, and one managed to organise for the locals to bring

8 some supplies. I don't know what they mean by activities here.

9 As for medical protection, well, there was virtually none.

10 Q. And then the final sentence of this paragraph says:

11 "Members of the army provide constant security for the centre

12 against any possible threat to the citizens from the extremists outside?"

13 Was that your impression of why the army was there?

14 A. Everybody knew the army was there to keep an eye on us but not to

15 protect us from the extremists. And no one was allowed to go anywhere.

16 I don't understand what extremists the reference is to. The Serb

17 extremists. Any Serb was free to access the camp and take away anyone

18 they liked, and they were free to beat people.

19 Q. I'd like you now, please, doctor, if you would, to look at the

20 ITN film. I know you've seen it a number of times, but just part of it.

21 All right. We'll start from the beginning.

22 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honours, I should say that is ...

23 Exhibit 1357 that we're showing. Yes.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 "How long has he been here?

Page 18426

1 "Several hundreds said that they had arrived from Omarska that

2 morning or from another detention camp released to this refugee centre

3 after days, sometimes months, of interrogation. We asked if the

4 allegations of beating in the detention centres were true.

5 "See, people were hungry. It's true ...

6 "I'm not sure that I'm allowed about that, you know, I -- can you

7 understand me?

8 "Tell us the truth.

9 "I'm afraid.

10 "250.

11 "Killed? What happened?

12 "I ...

13 "In this vicious civil war where atrocities against Serbs as well

14 as Muslims occur daily, finding the truth isn't easy. We ourselves saw

15 no evidence of beatings on any refugee here, and we only heard the

16 allegations, Allegations even the camp doctor seemed unable to

17 substantiate ..."

18 MS. KORNER: Just pause.

19 Q. We see there, do we, a younger you, Dr. Merdzanic?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And can you just tell us, who's standing behind you?

22 A. That's Vasif Gutic, who was a medical student at the time.

23 Q. And we can see just to the right there, was that a patient?

24 A. That's one of the inmates.

25 Q. All right.

Page 18427

1 MS. KORNER: Yes, let's carry on.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 "Does he get any cases here of people who've been beaten from the

4 other camps?

5 "Yes.

6 "Many? Would you be happier speaking another language?

7 "Yes.

8 "I was able, however, to smuggle out a role of film. And the man

9 who took the pictures and gave it to me said he would be killed if

10 caught. He begged me to check that in three days he was still alive."

11 MS. KORNER: Pause there for a moment.

12 Q. That's the photographs we looked at earlier that you'd taken.

13 That was you who told Penny Marshall that you were afraid you'd be

14 killed?

15 A. Yes. Unless -- that's if they found me out, they would

16 definitely kill me.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes, let's carry on.

18 [Video-clip played]

19 "And amongst all this horror, some small touches of humanity.

20 "This is my friend.

21 "Like 19-year-old Igor, a Serb who now stands guard over the

22 friends he grew up with. Muslims from the village they once shared as

23 children, now homeless, persecuted, and behind wire. Igor took us to

24 another side of Trnopolje where we met some who'd come here by choice,

25 those who'd run for their lives to this pitiable camp. Amongst them,

Page 18428

1 13-year-old Sana who said he was used as a human shield by extremist

2 Muslims on his own side. The Serbs had taken his mother.

3 "Are you frightened now?

4 "Yes, a little."

5 MS. KORNER: Pause for a moment again. Right.

6 Q. The bit of the camp that's now being shown, doctor, where was

7 that?

8 A. Right now, you mean? With the two hands? Or just before?

9 Q. Just before. When we saw him going over.

10 A. Just before. Okay. That was where the wire fence was made.

11 That's what I had marked before, between the wire fence that used to be

12 there.

13 Q. All right. And I should have asked you that --

14 A. And the hall.

15 Q. Sorry. The wire fence that we saw earlier on when -- at the

16 beginning of the clip, was that the one that was constructed and then

17 taken down again?

18 A. The first frame that we saw showed us the wire fence that was

19 there to the south of the other two fences that you could see. To the

20 left and right. Those two came later. We saw them in this footage.

21 Q. All right.

22 MS. KORNER: Let's just continue.

23 [Video-clip played]

24 "Where do you want to be? If you could shut your eyes and be

25 anywhere, where would you like to be?

Page 18429

1 "To follow my mother. To find my mother. Where is she?

2 "No one we spoke to knew why they'd been brought here, whether

3 they were prisoner, refugees, or what lay in store for them. In this

4 civil war, there is no sense and a great deal of horrifying cruelty.

5 "Penny Marshall ..."

6 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. Yes?

9 A. I just wanted to say, just before. If you stop before this, you

10 can see the fence here, right before this. Yes, that's the one.

11 [Video-clip played]

12 "... or what lay in store for them ..."

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. That's the fence?

15 A. This is the one that was there already. And right before this,

16 there was a lower fence which was made on the western side.

17 This -- later on, there was a soldier who was standing there.

18 Q. All right. I think we see that in a minute.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 A. This is -- to the right of the road. Oh, right. This bit. Yes,

21 you could tell. A moment ago, it was going all the way there. Yes.

22 Stop, stop.

23 This fence was made on the western side. It stretches from the

24 previous fence that was always there, all the way to the wall. And this

25 is the hall right behind. And the -- the entrance, the door, was to the

Page 18430

1 right.

2 Q. All right. Let's just go onto -- yes, I just want to show you

3 the next bit where they came back.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 "... in the makeshift medical centre ... show severe

6 injuries ... smuggle film out of the camp. The pictures show severe

7 injuries, apparently as a result of beatings.

8 "In the makeshift medical centre there were cases of scabies,

9 malnutrition, and diarrhoea. Local doctors said they were chronically

10 short of medicine and drugs. And among them was a Muslim doctor. We

11 asked him whether there had been any cases of beatings.

12 "Yes.

13 "Many?"

14 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I'm --

15 [Video-clip played]

16 "On one side of the camp were refugees who were here simply

17 because they have nowhere else to go, their homes having been destroyed.

18 They have been told they can go as soon as they have a guarantee of a

19 home outside Serb-controlled Bosnia."

20 MS. KORNER: All right. Can you pause there for a moment.

21 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, according to the report, these were people who

22 were refugees and were told they could go. Were there some people there

23 like that, in August?

24 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "refugees." The Serbs go into a

25 village, drive all the women and children out, bring some of them over

Page 18431

1 here, they set fire to their homes and mosques. Well, in a situation

2 like that, obviously these people end up being refugees, don't they?

3 So I'm not sure about the context of the word. Once they were

4 brought here, in principle they couldn't leave. Because of these

5 soldiers and army keeping them in.

6 Q. All right.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes, let's carry on.

8 [Video-clip played]

9 "In Banja Luka, prisoners' wives have been queueing for days for

10 news of their men and to register as refugees, because they too have ..."

11 MS. KORNER: Stop.

12 Q. The report says Banja Luka. Is that Banja Luka?

13 A. I think this is the police station in Prijedor. Stojan Zupljanin

14 knows Banja Luka, so he might know whether it's Banja Luka.

15 No, it's Prijedor.

16 Q. All right.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 "... nowhere to go. On the roads to Banja Luka, Muslim villages

19 lie empty and deserted, homes ..."

20 MS. KORNER: Pause.

21 Q. Do you know where this -- what they're showing us there, doctor?

22 A. We can see not only a house that's been destroyed but it's been

23 torched. You can see that it's black. It was -- it was torched.

24 Q. Yes, sorry. Do you know where -- where it is, though, the actual

25 area? Do you recognise it?

Page 18432

1 A. I wasn't paying attention. I can just see one house now, so I

2 can't tell. I think this is probably on the road from Kozarac, but I'm

3 not sure.

4 Q. All right.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 "If there is, eventually, freedom for the men in the detention

7 centres, it's unlikely to be in Serb-controlled Bosnia. Ian Williams,

8 ITN, Northern Bosnia."

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Doctor, could I pose a question to you in

10 relation to the video that we have just seen, because it appeared as if

11 there was a difference in treatment between those who were kept, if I

12 understand it correctly, at the main parts of the camp, and where you

13 were assisting in attending to their wounds. And then, on the other

14 hand, somewhere else in the camp, a smaller part where people were kept

15 as refugees, as we see in the video.

16 And so my question is: Were all of them treated in the same way,

17 or were the so-called refugees treated differently from the rest of the

18 inmates at the camp? And -- and if they were treated differently, then,

19 on which criteria were they selected?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only difference was that those

21 who were able-bodied were accommodated in the school and they could not

22 leave the camp. The women, the children, and the elderly spent a short

23 time there, and especially the women and the children were accommodated

24 in the hall. And when there was so many of them that they couldn't fit

25 any more in, they were transported away; whereas, the able-bodied men had

Page 18433

1 to stay.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: So if I understand you correctly, there was no

3 difference in the treatment of the able-bodied men that we saw behind the

4 fences and then the able-bodied men that we saw who were called refugees.

5 They were all treated in the same way and were there on the same

6 conditions.

7 Is that correct?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were behind the fence were

9 camp inmates who were not from Trnopolje. They were camp inmates who had

10 been brought there from Keraterm and some of them from Omarska. When the

11 journalists announced that they would visit the camps, the Serbs decided

12 to close down Keraterm entirely.

13 And some of the people from Keraterm were brought to Trnopolje.

14 Some went missing. And some were sent to Manjaca.

15 As for Omarska, it was first the women, the children, and some

16 sick people who arrived first. And before the journalists arrived, they

17 let them go to Prijedor so the journalists wouldn't find them there.

18 The night when the journalists left, a large group arrived from

19 Omarska who had been on the buses and in trucks until the journalists

20 left, and only then were they brought there. Especially in the

21 beginning, the attitude towards these inmates from Omarska and Keraterm

22 was worse than -- than the handling that we received.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. You seemed to imply also that there was a

24 small group of able-bodied men who actually came from Trnopolje and who

25 were there because their houses had been destroyed and -- and who looked

Page 18434

1 to me as if they were being treated differently and more leniently than

2 the ones behind the wires and the fence.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct in the sense that we,

4 in Trnopolje, despite the interrogations and the beatings of the inmates,

5 the inmates in Trnopolje were in more favourable condition than those who

6 had been in Keraterm or Omarska.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

8 So I am to understand that the inmates or the detainees who were

9 taken to Trnopolje were treated more harshly than the inmates that were

10 brought there or who had arrived there, perhaps at their own free will,

11 from Trnopolje itself. Is that ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That's not how it was. Nobody

13 was there of their own free will. Those who had come from Trnopolje had

14 also been forced out of their homes by the army. They didn't come of

15 their own free will.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. I -- I understand that.

17 Thank you very much, sir.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

19 MS. KORNER: If we can just finish this clip.

20 JUDGE HALL: It's time for the break. It's past time, actually.

21 MS. KORNER: Oh, is it?

22 JUDGE HALL: When we resume, Ms. Korner, you would have about

23 15 minutes left.

24 MS. KORNER: That's all I need. Thank you.

25 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.

Page 18435

1 So we rise and return in 20 minutes.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 MS. KORNER:

7 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, I'm just going to finish the last bit of this clip

8 of the video that I want you to look at.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 "On the road to Trnopolje, a now all too familiar site. Muslim

11 refugees fleeing their villages. Sabrina Redic said her husband had been

12 shot and her house torched by advancing Bosnian Serb troops.

13 "When did they burn your house?

14 "Her terror was in part about what lies ahead at Trnopolje. Will

15 she and her children be safe at a Serbian-run camp?

16 "The Red Cross are going help you. They're going to do that.

17 "They will be there. They will be there.

18 "At Trnopolje, the International Red Cross has just arrived.

19 This is the first time they'd been allowed inside. For the moment,

20 Sabrina and her children are safe, for Trnopolje has changed.

21 "There's now some food getting through, although the queues are

22 long, and there's also shelter and clothes provided by the Serbian

23 authorities. And the barbed-wire fence which shocked the world has been

24 torn down from its posts."

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 18436

1 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, you explained to us how the International

2 Red Cross came in after the reporters. Was that right, that the fence

3 had been taken down?

4 A. That's right. Before their arrival, the fence was entirely

5 removed, all of it.

6 Q. All right.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 "All this has been in advance of the simultaneous arrival of the

9 Red Cross and our cameras, for certain conditions here have improved.

10 These refugees are safer. But the Red Cross have still not been allowed

11 to enter any other camps, and our visits are closely supervised.

12 Whispered rumours of rapid transferral of prisoners from the area abound.

13 We couldn't find any proof of this. But here, at least there's hope.

14 Inside the camp hospital, the doctor who last week stood petrified was

15 now welcoming, the relief obvious.

16 "Is it -- can you ask him if we can talk?

17 "He now knows there's international concern for him and people

18 like him. 'Much more needs to be done,' he says, 'but conditions have

19 improved.'

20 "... they moved the wire around. They started giving more food.

21 People can go free, are going out and in. Muslims can now go to the

22 train and before they couldn't go on the train. And their families, they

23 can come now and visit them. It's much, much better.

24 "But camp life is still by any human standard absolutely

25 appalling. There's a desperate shortage of medicine and hundreds of

Page 18437

1 patients to treat, amongst them those who claim they were beaten by their

2 Serbian Guards.

3 "The men responsible for running this camp and others are

4 now willing to ..."

5 MS. KORNER: Pause for a minute.

6 Q. Do you recognise, sir, who that is?

7 A. He was an anaesthesiologist at the hospital. His name was

8 Kovacevic.

9 Q. Do you know if he -- is this the Kovacevic who died whilst

10 awaiting trial here?

11 A. Yes, that's him.

12 [Video-clip played]

13 "... admit on camera mistakes were made.

14 "So it's -- it was some mistakes and now it's the war situation,

15 but they are going to clear up the situation.

16 "How -- how -- what have they discovered? What were the

17 mistakes? How many people were involved?

18 "War is war. Some people, they loose control and then they --

19 they -- they beat some people and ...

20 "Eight people have been arrested in connection with maltreatment

21 in the camps. We were shown evidence by our Serbian hosts, without whom

22 access to these refugees centres would be impossible, that equivalent

23 atrocities have been inflicted on their own side. They said this video

24 showed some of the 6000 civilian Serbs killed by Muslims and Croats in

25 the war. They denied they were using terror to force Muslims from their

Page 18438

1 villages. But there is increasing evidence that they are. This Muslim

2 village, Kozarac, for example, once housed 26" --

3 MS. KORNER: Pause.

4 Q. The pronunciation may not be right. Is what's being shown now

5 Kozarac?

6 A. I think it's just the suburbs. It's the periphery, not Kozarac

7 itself.

8 [Video-clip played]

9 "... 26000. There's no one left. Many are in these camps, men

10 like 26-year-old Zijad Hukanovic, held up by his elder brother. He was a

11 television repairman before the Serbs took him to Omarska.

12 "No, no fighting.

13 "You've been in prison in Omarska for 70 days?

14 "[Indiscernible]

15 "Did you think you were going die when you were inside?

16 "And all -- he's almost dead.

17 "The International Red Cross yesterday gave out registration

18 forms to the 2.000 now in Trnopolje, a small start in one camp, but there

19 are hundreds of others they need to reach, for civilians on all sides,

20 because of their ethnic backgrounds, are being killed in this war, and

21 these camps are for only some of the survivors. Penny Marshall, News at

22 10, Northern Bosnia."

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

24 Q. And, doctor, just two other matters that I want to ask you about.

25 Firstly, could you have a look at a document ... if I can find my list.

Page 18439

1 MS. KORNER: It's 65 ter 481. And it's tab 5.

2 I don't ... you need to switch the ... from video. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, this is a document dated 11th of July, which comes from

4 Prijedor, as we can see.

5 MS. KORNER: And if we go to the next page, please, in English.

6 Q. It's actually a document signed or -- it -- or on his behalf -

7 I'm not clear which - but we can just make out the signature

8 Simo Drljaca. It says:

9 "Please find enclosed a list of your employees who are in some of

10 the refugee camps in accordance with the Prijedor municipality Crisis

11 Staff order ... of 2nd July 1992 ..."

12 If we look at the General Hospital. Somebody at the name at

13 number 8 is Esad Sadikovic. Is that a doctor?

14 A. He is the specialist, the otolaryngologist that I talked about.

15 Q. The one who went on the -- on the delegation to -- to see

16 Stojan Zupljanin?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

19 A. As far as I know, he was taken to Omarska. And just before the

20 journalists arrived, he and some others, Jusuf Pasic, who was taken away

21 from Trnopolje and some other doctors were taken away, most of the bodies

22 had been found. Only Osman Masmujanin's [phoen] body has not yet been

23 found.

24 Q. Yes, thank you.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that be marked and admitted,

Page 18440

1 please.

2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1772, Your Honours.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. And, finally, doctor, can I ask you, please, to look at the clip

6 from another video, which will come up on your screen. And the video is

7 65 ter 2326.

8 Before we play it, do you recognise the man who's being

9 interviewed?

10 A. It's Dr. Stakic, who worked at Omarska.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, if we can play it. There is a transcript,

12 which I has been given.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We are talking with Milomir Stakic,

15 president of the Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff. Mr. President, please

16 describe to us the situation in the territory that is under your control.

17 "Well, I can tell you and the viewers that the whole territory of

18 Prijedor municipality is under our control, which I can confirm following

19 the liberation of Kozarac. The town, Serbian settlements and smaller

20 enclaves with Muslim population, have been under our control since the

21 takeover of power on 30 April. And now, after the fall of Kozarac, the

22 entire municipality is under our control. In Kozarac itself, the

23 operation of 'cleaning' as the military call it, is still going on,

24 because those who have stayed now behind are the most extreme ones and

25 the professionals. In the territory of the Bosanska Gradiska" --

Page 18441

1 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ...

2 Q. First of all, what we're now seeing is a picture of a tank. Is

3 that like the one that you described that you saw in Kozarac, just before

4 you left?

5 A. I saw the tanks exactly the same as this. I don't know whether

6 it's exactly as the one as in the picture, but those -- that's the type

7 of tank that I saw.

8 Q. I want to ask you about a couple of things that Stakic said in

9 this interview, which was clearly very shortly after what happened in

10 Kozarac. He says that:

11 "The whole of Prijedor municipality is under our control, which I

12 can confirm following the liberation of Kozarac."

13 What do you say to the use of the term "liberation of Kozarac"?

14 A. They liberated it of its own inhabitants, of the inhabitants of

15 Kozarac. They are calling it a mop-up themselves. In our language, it

16 would refer to you picking up dirt from the ground and mopping -- mopping

17 up the room. People who lived there had their homes there, had their

18 families there. So if that's what they call liberation, that's up to

19 them.

20 Q. And he goes on to say:

21 "The town, Serbian settlements and smaller enclaves with Muslim

22 population, have been under our control since the takeover of the power

23 of the 30th of April, and now, after the fall of Kozarac, the entire

24 municipality is under our control."

25 What do you say to that assertion?

Page 18442

1 A. Well, what I have to say about that assertion is that it was

2 practically confirmed; they did have it under their control. And after

3 the fall of Kozarac, all the other locals from surrounding villages with

4 Muslims and Croats were expelled and sent to camps despite the fact that

5 this area was under their control. These villages were under their

6 control but yet they cleared out the non-Serbian population that lived

7 there, without any reason whatsoever, because they already had control.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, doctor. That's all I ask.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that video please be admitted.

10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1773, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Aleksic.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening, doctor.

15 A. Good evening.

16 Q. I have a few questions for you, but we will most certainly be

17 finished by the end of today.

18 At the beginning of your testimony today, you said that you had

19 testified in the Stakic and Brdjanin cases in September and

20 November of 2002; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As for the events that preceded the events in Kozarac that you

23 talked about, in the Brdjanin case, on page 11798, you said that in

24 Kozarac, on the way into Kozarac near the sawmill, there was a barricade

25 and that it had been set up by the people of Kozarac in order to prevent