Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19487

 1                           Wednesday, 13 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

10     everyone.

11             May we have the appearances, please.

12             MS. KORNER:  Good morning.  Joanna Korner, Alexis Demirdjian, and

13     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, Ms. Tatjana Savic, and Ms.

16     Deirdre Montgomery appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank

17     you.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

19     Aleksandar Aleksic, and Maggie di Gaudio appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             We have been alerted that there's a matter which the Defence

22     wished to raise.  But before we hear from that, there is the matter of --

23     I believe there are two documents which the translation -- two documents

24     on which the Zupljanin Defence which they wish to use, the translations

25     of which have not been completed.  First of all, what is the update on

Page 19488

 1     the status of those translations?  And the question that we have for the

 2     Prosecution arising out of that is whether they are content with the

 3     drafts which I understand have been provided.

 4             Could we hear from Mr. Krgovic as to where we are with the ...

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We are in

 6     correspondence with the service and we were told that the translation

 7     would arrive this week, but we did not receive a specific date in respect

 8     of the whole translation.  We were only told that it is due to be

 9     finished this week, and I'm talking about the expert report of

10     General Kovacevic.  We have received a draft translation.  And my

11     Case Manager is in contact with the CLSS and we do expect it to be

12     resolved very soon.  As soon as we receive any sort of information, we

13     will inform both the Chamber and the OTP through our Legal Assistant.

14             JUDGE HALL:  There is, of course, the procedural matter that at

15     this point you are not in compliance with the extant order of the Chamber

16     in this regard.  But anyway, let me hear from the OTP.

17             Sorry, were you about to respond to ...

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Since we are

19     waiting for the translation of the footnotes as well, we are

20     cross-referencing our references with what is in the law library in order

21     to place all the additional documents on our 65 ter list.  But since we

22     don't have all the documents yesterday, we were unable to honour the

23     Trial Chamber's order.  Therefore we will ask to have a meeting with the

24     CLSS today and we will report back to the Chambers on it and, if

25     necessary, ask for any extension of the dead-line for the submission of

Page 19489

 1     the report.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So do I understand the position to be that you are

 3     waiting to formalize your application until you are in a position to

 4     intelligently say what the application is?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Since we haven't received a

 6     clear answer from the translation service as to when the translation

 7     would be finished, we can't give you our exact position as to what our

 8     application for an extension of the dead-line would be.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

10             Ms. Korner.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I say this, we haven't the

12     slightest interest in working on a draft report which may change, but

13     equally, we're not taking any point on the delay on the basis that we're

14     not likely to get to Mr. Krgovic's expert before July at the earliest,

15     even longer if we go on like the way we're going at the moment.  So we're

16     not taking any point on it.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yesterday during the

20     examination-in-chief of our first witness, the Prosecution sent us a list

21     of the documents they intend to use during their cross-examination of the

22     same witness.  To our great surprise, I must say, we found, late in the

23     afternoon and during the night, that a number of documents have never

24     been disclosed to us.  I will give you a list of these documents, but I'd

25     like first to explain what the situation involves.

Page 19490

 1             First off, the Rules are quite clear and there's no reason for me

 2     to try and expound on them, either for the benefit of the Chamber or my

 3     learned friends who are well acquainted with it.  The disclosure

 4     obligation lies on the Prosecution.  We also have the jurisprudence both

 5     of this Tribunal and the Rwanda Tribunal, which I need not cite, but it

 6     is quite clear in its position as to the OTP obligation to disclose

 7     materials.  The placement of documents into the EDS system does not mean

 8     by no account that the OTP thus fulfills its obligation to disclose

 9     material.

10             On Monday, the Chamber requested that we provide copies of the

11     interview our client had with the Prosecution.  We did so.  And only

12     after we had done so we received information from the Prosecution that

13     the entire transcript is in fact in existence of his interview from 2009.

14     We had asked for it on the 26th of May, 2009.  We had asked for the

15     entire transcript of Mr. Bjelosevic's interview to be provided to us.  At

16     16.45 of the day before his arrival we finally received them.

17             You'll recall that in January we lost at least two hours of court

18     time, and I don't know how many hours that my team had to spend working,

19     on the documents referenced in the book by Colonel Lisica, and it was

20     only yesterday that we received, on the same list of the Prosecution, one

21     of the documents from the same book that they were given by this witness

22     who has taken the stand now back in 2004.  I am terribly concerned about

23     the situation, I must say so.  We have now received documents that we

24     have never seen before, that we have never been able to discuss with our

25     witness, because we didn't know that they existed.  Apparently the

Page 19491

 1     Prosecution has had them all along.  These are not documents that were

 2     obtained yesterday or that they received at some point.

 3             From the 28th of March earlier this year, when we filed our

 4     65 ter list, the OTP knew that our first witness would be Mr. Bjelosevic.

 5     And it was during the interview in 2009 that Mr. Bjelosevic mentioned the

 6     fact that he was called to be a Defence witness.  Since this is our first

 7     witness, Your Honours, we really have to insist on the application of

 8     Rule 68 bis and that pursuant to that Rule the Prosecution be adequately

 9     sanctioned for the failure to disclose material.

10             If this is the situation we are encountering at the very

11     beginning, who knows what will happen when our other witnesses follow.

12     If we are always going to receive documentation only after our witnesses

13     have taken their oath, it seems to me that there will be none of the fair

14     trial that we are due.

15             I will now list the relevance documents.  And I can reference

16     them by tabs, rather than 65 ter numbers, that the Prosecution has given

17     them yesterday.  These are tabs 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 16, 17, 23, 28, 30, 34,

18     69, 72, 86, 87, 88, 90, 97.  Your Honours, I have the entire

19     documentation containing all our requests and the responses from the

20     Prosecution, and if the Prosecution should deny any of what we've said,

21     we can provide this for the benefit of the Chamber.

22             Now, the Rules we invoke are Rule 66, and the jurisprudence is

23     the Lukic and Lukic case, decision on Milan Lukic's motion to suppress,

24     et cetera, the 3rd of November, 2008.  Rule 68, the decision of the

25     Trial Chamber in the Karadzic case, 10th of March, 2009.  The

Page 19492

 1     Miroslav Bralo case of 30th of August, 2006.  And the decision in the

 2     Prosecutor versus Karamira case, the Appeals Chamber decision of the 30th

 3     of June, 2006.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, for I don't know how many times, and I

 7     would deplore the bringing up of these matters and quoting of authorities

 8     without advance notice to the Prosecution, notice of this application was

 9     made at -- to us by e-mail at 7.30 a.m.  And I don't know about anybody

10     else but I'm not in the habit of reading my e-mails at 7.30 in the

11     morning.

12             Your Honours, we obviously can deal with this very briefly now,

13     but in the light -- as the Defence have mentioned a number of authorities

14     and the like, we would wish to give a reasoned reply at a later stage.

15             Your Honours, with regard, I can, however, deal with two matters.

16     The complaint about the transcript of the interview.  Can I start by

17     pointing out that this witness has never been on our witness list and was

18     never on our witness list.  He was one of many, many senior officials

19     with the Serbian MUP whom the Office of the Prosecutor interviewed, some

20     of whom were put on to the list of witnesses to be called and some who

21     were not.

22             Many of these witnesses told us that they had been approached by

23     the Defence, which in our view was neither here nor there.  The vast

24     majority of those who had told us they had been approached by the Defence

25     are not on the Defence witness list.  Your Honours may have been somewhat

Page 19493

 1     surprised, as, I have to confess, we were, at the paucity of witnesses

 2     who were coming to speak about those events.

 3             Your Honours, in respect of this witness, we -- he was

 4     interviewed originally in 2004 and then interviewed again in 2009, and he

 5     did, like, as I say, many others witnesses tell us that he had been

 6     approached to be a Defence witness.  He said he was asked if he had made

 7     a statement to the Defence and he said no he hadn't, as I recall.  I

 8     haven't checked that recently.

 9             We only had part -- can I say, Your Honours, straightaway:  We

10     disclosed both those interview, the tapes thereof, in full virtually from

11     the 2004 one, when disclosure began, to the 2009 in a matter of days, I

12     believe.  We therefore fulfilled our obligations entirely under Rule 68.

13     The only obligation that we had to disclose any of that interview was

14     Rule 68, which we did.  In fact, we went further than our obligations

15     because we gave them the whole interview, whereas we could have simply

16     extracted from it the Rule 68 material.  So it is misleading to inform

17     Your Honours that we had withheld from the Defence this interview.  We

18     only had part of it transcribed because that was the part that was of

19     interest to us, which dealt with the Mice in Teslic.

20             At a later stage, after the Defence request, we had a number of

21     other interviews transcribed on the basis we were not sure, and in

22     anticipation, of whom the Defence might be calling.  And we also had that

23     one, the whole interview, as opposed to the excerpt transcribed.  We gave

24     them the excerpt out of the kindness of our collective hearts, not

25     because we were obliged to.

Page 19494

 1             And, Your Honours --

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, where did you disclose these

 3     interviews?

 4             MS. KORNER:  Would Your Honours give me one moment, I'll just ask

 5     Mr. Smith.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we disclosed the whole tape on the

 8     8th of July, 2009.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And how?  By sending the tapes to the Defence or

10     by putting it on the EDS?  Or how?

11             MS. KORNER:  Oh, no, no, we sent them.  We put everything onto

12     DVD or CD that we disclosed.  No, no, we don't -- if we disclose, we

13     don't say, Go and look for it in EDS.  It wouldn't be on EDS, in any

14     event.

15             But, Your Honours, this complaint, we say, is without any merit

16     whatsoever.  We did, then, for our own purposes get it transcribed.  And

17     it's absolutely right they asked us whether we'd had the whole part

18     transcribed and we said no just the part we disclosed to them.  After it

19     had been transcribed, I'm afraid to say that in the many, many requests

20     and things that were happening in this case, I forgot that we had it

21     until I saw -- may I say, I explained all this in an e-mail to Ms. Savic,

22     so I'm somewhat surprised to have it raised like this.  When we saw them

23     uploading the interview which said "partial," we then remembered that we

24     had the whole one.  And, though, as I say, we have no obligation

25     whatsoever to help them out, their calling this witness, they should have

Page 19495

 1     actually had the rest of the interview transcribed or asked us if we'd

 2     had it done, but they didn't.

 3             So, Your Honours, we then -- we gave them the transcript and

 4     that's how it's been uploaded.  So, Your Honours, I take grave exception

 5     to that complaint.

 6             Your Honours, as regards the second part of the complaint, namely

 7     that there are documents on our list to ask Mr. Bjelosevic about which

 8     are not -- have not been disclosed, apart from the fact that some of them

 9     are already on the Defence list and exhibited by them, but, Your Honours,

10     as I say, I've been taken by surprise by this.  I haven't had an

11     opportunity to look at the authorities that Mr. Zecevic has just reeled

12     of off his head nor checked the correspondence with the Defence because

13     our obligation to disclose, after 66 -- Rule 66(A) has been complied

14     with, is if there's a request under 66(B) or if it contains 68.  And,

15     Your Honours, as far as we're concerned, certainly none of the material

16     we're going to use is Rule 68.  The query is, Does it come under

17     Rule 66 B?  Firstly, I need to check the Defence request; second, I need

18     to look at the authorities.  And so at this point in time, Your Honour,

19     I'm not in a position to deal with this, but can do tomorrow.

20             JUDGE HALL:  So there the matter would rest until the Prosecution

21     is able to formulate a full response to the matter raised by the Defence.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE HALL:  If there is nothing else, may the usher please

24     escort the witness to the stand.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 19496

 1                           WITNESS:  ANDRIJA BJELOSEVIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, Mr. Bjelosevic.  You may be seated.

 4     You may take your seat.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, good morning.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  The practice is that at the beginning of each day's

 7     sitting I would remind the witness that he is still on his oath, that is,

 8     the solemn declaration that he would have made at the -- before he began

 9     his testimony.  But I was reminded that something -- that there's

10     something I neglected to do yesterday which I'm about to do now, but

11     before I do that, let me state clearly that nothing that I am about to

12     say suggests that the Chamber has any questions about the veracity or

13     otherwise of anything you would have said so far.  We are not at that

14     stage in terms of the deliberative duty which the Chamber would have.

15     But it is something of which I should have pointed out to you when you

16     made the solemn declaration yesterday and it is this:  That the solemn

17     declaration, which I'm sure that you recall, the usher would have handed

18     to you on a card, is not a mere ritual or formality; it imposes upon a

19     witness, such as yourself, an obligation to give truthful testimony

20     before this Tribunal.  And should you fail to do so, this Tribunal is

21     empowered under the Statutes which constitute it to impose penalties for

22     perjury, that is, for giving false or misleading testimony.  So that is

23     something which, as I said, I should have pointed out at the very

24     beginning yesterday.  And to come back to what I said at the begin, we

25     begin a new day, and I remind you of the solemn declaration.

Page 19497

 1             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Zecevic [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bjelosevic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Good morning.  Mr. Bjelosevic, given that we followed a

 7     chronological order, yesterday we came to the beginning of 1992.  Tell

 8     me, please, are you aware --

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I see that the

10     witness doesn't have his binder with documents here.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Would you please turn to tab 16.  776D1.  And please comment on

14     it if you are familiar with the event.

15        A.   Yes.  I am familiar with the document and I also know about the

16     event described here.  Namely, the bridge between the Bosnian -- Bosanski

17     and Slavonski Samac was indeed mined, and this is a dispatch that

18     Minister Delimustafic sent to the addresses listed here, that is to say,

19     to the Crisis Staff of Slavonski Brod municipality.  However, I don't

20     know whether this is really a standard routine type of correspondence;

21     I'm not sure about that.  But I am familiar with the case.  I know about

22     this, yes.

23        Q.   When you say that you're not sure that this is a standard

24     routine, the typical correspondence, would you please explain it to us.

25        A.   I was referring to the level.  Since this involves the

Page 19498

 1     Crisis Staff of the Slavonski Brod municipality, then it should have been

 2     considered as a local level.  And for a minister, a member of the

 3     cabinet, to get involved in something like this, well, he normally

 4     corresponds with people who are his equals, in terms of level.

 5             But let me tell you something else:  There was a request from the

 6     Croatian side.  Such requests mostly came from Slavonski Brod.  And the

 7     request was for the JNA, which, to remind you, was the legal armed force

 8     of the SFRY, to be withdrawn 25 kilometres south of the Sava River.  Such

 9     request was made with a view to create a solid whole, a solid entity, on

10     both banks of the Sava River, on the right and on the left bank.  This is

11     why they pressured for the joint mixed check-points to be withdrawn.

12             The destruction of the bridge, which until the very end remained

13     unclear in terms of the perpetrator, should also be viewed as a way to

14     pressure the Bosnian side, to make the Bosnian side also request the

15     withdrawal of the JNA 25 kilometres to the south of the Sava River.

16        Q.   These facts, the destruction of this bridge and some other

17     destructions that we saw earlier, the requests for the JNA to be

18     withdrawn 25 kilometres from the border into the depth of the territory

19     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did it affect the population in Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina, in that region, and if so, to what extent?

21        A.   Of course it affected them.  Most of the population of Croat and

22     Muslim ethnicity supported the request, at least those who were in

23     Bosanski Brod and parts of Derventa.  As for the Serbs, almost

24     100 per cent of them.  A large number of Muslims and a large number of

25     Croats living in Derventa and to the south, they supported the presence

Page 19499

 1     of the JNA, seeing them as the federal force which provided security to

 2     all citizens and all nations.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

 5     would like to tender this into evidence.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Could I ask for the original, please.  The photocopy

 7     is so bad that it's impossible to see what this is.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we received this

 9     document from the section of criminal defence with the state court in

10     Sarajevo.  This and the next document were received from them, and this

11     is a copy of the document which can be found in the State Court for

12     War Crimes of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And these are all of the documents

13     that we have from them.

14             MS. KORNER:  And I'd like to see the original, please.  As I say,

15     at the moment, Your Honours, I'm afraid it is almost impossible to tell

16     what this document is.  It's not signed, it's not stamped, at least as

17     far as I can tell.  And so until such time as we have a better copy, I'm

18     saying it should be marked for identification.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, apart from the provenance issue which

20     Ms. Korner has raised, the -- apart from the historical curiosity about

21     this incident, how is it relevant?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, maybe the witness should take

23     his earphones off.

24             [Interpretation] Switch off your mike, please.

25             [In English] Well, Your Honours --

Page 19500

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Incidentally, I wonder whether the witness

 2     understands English.  Because yesterday there was a -- I remember that he

 3     had responded before that there -- but anyway.

 4             MS. KORNER:  I'd like to know that as well, actually,

 5     Your Honour.  Because otherwise this is a pointless exercise and he will

 6     have to leave court.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Not to my knowledge, but we can -- you can ask the

 8     witness, Your Honour.  Or maybe I can ask the witness, whatever pleases

 9     the Court.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, do you speak -- do you understand

11     English?  Mr. Bjelosevic, the question is:  To what extent, if any, do

12     you understand English?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very little.  Good afternoon, how

14     do you do, and things like that.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I take them off?

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I believe this document is relevant

19     because we have subsequent documents which will show that there was --

20     that there was a specific issue concerning the blowing up of the bridge

21     in Bosanski Samac.  And despite the fact that it was on the territory of

22     the CSB and apparently under the jurisdiction of this witness, the

23     conduct of the investigation was done completely without his knowledge or

24     his made aware of the results of the commission that went on that.

25     Therefore, it is also significant for the fact that the

Page 19501

 1     Minister Delimustafic communicates directly with the Crisis Staff of the

 2     Slavonski Brod, which is a Crisis Staff of the HDZ in Croatia, and

 3     therefore it only fits into the -- into the picture which we are trying

 4     to establish concerning the situation and our theory of the context why

 5     and for which reasons this witness, among others, went to the

 6     11th of February meeting in Banja Luka.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  So is the -- should this document be marked for

 8     identification pending the resolution of the ...

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I don't -- we have -- in the

10     documents which the Office of the Prosecutor gave to us and which are

11     admitted as the exhibits, a number of them are not signed, a number of

12     them are not originals, and I don't see how we can apply the very new

13     standard now when the Defence case is in question.

14             We -- I gave the explanation of the provenance of the document.

15     The provenance of the document, it comes from the State Court of

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I received it from the office of the criminal

17     defence, which is a part of the structure of the State Court of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And the document I received is exactly this

19     document, which I copied and provided the copy to the Office of the

20     Prosecutor.

21             I'm -- I don't know if the original exists at all.  This is the

22     copy which I received.  And as far as I can help the Trial Chamber and

23     anybody else, this is the document that -- that we received.  Among other

24     things, this is a telegram, and you -- we have at least 400 exhibits and

25     telegrams which are not signed.  It's just that the name is printed of

Page 19502

 1     the sender of the document.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, firstly, we have nothing to say

 3     that this is a telegram because the whole of the top part has been cut

 4     off.  Your Honours, it's incumbent upon the Defence to have a legible

 5     original if they want to exhibit a document.  At the moment, we simply

 6     don't even know what this is.  There's nothing to show that it was sent.

 7     If anything, it looks more as it comes out of a book.  We're back to that

 8     one again.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, Ms. Korner, the notion of best evidence

10     means best obtainable.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes, but they can go back to the state court and

12     say, Send us a proper copy.  Not this.  And if that's all that exists,

13     well then they can say so.  But at the moment they haven't checked.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  And it is my understanding that this is what exists

15     in the state court and there is no other better copy than this.  And

16     among other things, it has on it DD and everything else, and it's obvious

17     that it's -- that the document is a telegram.

18             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, can I say, the original, if you

19     look, it says 1/2.  I rather feel this comes out, it may be not a book or

20     something like that, but something else.  I don't think a telegram, if

21     this was the original or even a copy of the original, would have 1/2 like

22     that.  If Your Honours can't -- you will have to have a look at the

23     next -- sorry, I've got the -- it's photocopied on two pages for us.  You

24     haven't seen the second page.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, how come on the English translation

Page 19503

 1     there is, on the top of the first page, information, socialist republic,

 2     et cetera, which you can't see on the copy, on the copy and on the

 3     monitor, in the B/C/S version?

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  So if we can have back the first page.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  It is there.  In the right -- right-hand corner, it

 7     says "MUP SRBiH/10 DD," and that is exactly what is the translation.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So the original copy you have is as bad as

 9     the copy you gave to the OTP?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Exactly, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's my ...

13             MS. KORNER:  Well, they gave us -- can I -- "gave" is not the

14     right word.  When their list of documents produced on Friday night, this

15     was uploaded into e-court, we've not seen this before, or the vast

16     majorities of these documents.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  It was disclosed to the Office of the Prosecutor on

18     the 28th of March.

19             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm being told that it was

20     when they gave the 65 ter list, so I take that back.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we see the second page, please.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HALL:  The document is admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D448 [Realtime transcript read in

Page 19504

 1     error "148"], Your Honours.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, it can't be 148.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  448.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, the transcript says "148," so ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  The correct number is 448, Your Honours.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, can we now take the document.  Let's look at the

 8     document at tab 25, 789D1.  And I would like to invite your comments,

 9     please.

10        A.   This is a dispatch that I myself sent to the Ministry of the

11     Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in this dispatch I asked them to

12     inform us as a service, as well as the general public, as to who had

13     destroyed the bridge.  Our team from the CSB Doboj carried out an on-site

14     investigation.  However, the investigation proper was taken over by a

15     team from the BiH MUP.  Therefore, we were not able to carry out other

16     own investigation.  We were not able to establish who had destroyed the

17     bridge.  That's why I asked them to provide us with information.

18        Q.   You sent this dispatch to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

22     would like to tender the document into evidence.

23             MS. KORNER:  What is the ... yes, I see it.  Sorry, Your Honour,

24     no objection.

25             JUDGE HALL:  I was merely going to say that we will take all of

Page 19505

 1     the previous discussions from this morning and indeed yesterday about

 2     relevance as being incorporated into this, and the document is admitted

 3     and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D449, Your Honours.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, could you now look at 780D1 at tab 19.

 7        A.   Could you please repeat?  The interpretation was still going on,

 8     so I couldn't hear you.  Could you repeat the number.

 9        Q.   Tab 19.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, are we still on the bridge?

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, not anymore.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Then I would like to ask the witness whether he

13     got that report he asked for and whether he knows who were the

14     perpetrators.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe the witness, in his previous, he said, We

18     were never made aware who was ... in his previous answer.  That is why I

19     didn't ask further.  In his previous answer, he -- I believe he said --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  As I understood it, his answer was:  And that's

21     why we asked the minister to report.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct, yes.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   Please comment on this document.

Page 19506

 1        A.   Yes.  This is another dispatch that I sent again.  I sent again

 2     because I had already sent such dispatches to the minister, his deputy,

 3     and the chief of the police administration.  What I requested in the

 4     dispatch was for them to stop engaging in parallel dealings in the

 5     municipalities of Bosanski Brod and Samac because as you can see from the

 6     things that were previously said, we were prevented from even carrying

 7     out an ordinary investigation.

 8             They had almost fully taken over the management of the service in

 9     the area in Bosanski Brod and in Bosanski Samac, that is.  They selected

10     policemen for the service and brought them from outside.  At the same

11     time, the responsibility for the situation in the area lay with the

12     CSB Doboj.  That's why I asked for those practices to be discontinued, so

13     as to allow us to carry out our duties properly at the CSB.

14             This pattern of behaviour, which started with the inspectors, was

15     transferred on to the chief of the station in Bosanski Samac.  He also

16     pushed out the commander from the system of command and control.  On

17     several occasion, the commander addressed me and complained about the

18     problems that he had encountered.  The chief of the station deployed a

19     policeman on the ground; at the same time, the commander was only

20     required to put his signature on the fait accompli.  He himself had not

21     participated in anything.

22             Later on, and even then at this time, there were information and

23     it became clear why those two police stations should have been placed

24     under the control of those inspectors.  Those were the axes along which

25     equipment and weapons were being transported for the paramilitary units

Page 19507

 1     in the central part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   This dispatch was sent to the minister, the deputy minister, and

 3     to somebody marked as 01.  What is 01?

 4        A.   That was the police administration, the administration for the

 5     uniformed police.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

 7     would like to tender the document into evidence.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D450.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You have just mentioned a letter or, rather, information that you

12     received from the commander of the Bosanski Samac Police Station.  Could

13     you please look at tab 28, 793D1.  Look at it, and then I would like to

14     invite your comments on it.

15        A.   Yes.  This is a dispatch which was sent by the commander of the

16     Bosanski Samac Police Station.  His name was Mr. Jekic.  In this

17     dispatch, he informed the MUP headquarters.  I believe that the number 10

18     is the office of the minister, 01 is the administration for the police,

19     and then there are different departments after the slashes.  And then he

20     also copied me as the security service centre in Doboj, to me as its

21     chief, and to its various departments.

22             This is his resignation.  He says that he can no longer perform

23     his duties.  He can no longer do his job because of the wilfulness of

24     Chief Dragicevic, because Chief Dragicevic simply left out all the other

25     commanders from the processes of decision-making, and, as you can see

Page 19508

 1     here, he says that Dragicevic does not call sessions of his expert team,

 2     although he should, in order to discuss matters and analyse the

 3     situation.

 4        Q.   Does this document tie in with your previous answer or, rather,

 5     the answer to my previous question when you mentioned problems in

 6     Bosanski Samac; is that it?

 7        A.   Yes, that's it.  This is precisely the document that confirms my

 8     previous answer.  As I've told you, he called me on the phone several

 9     times, but I was powerless there because Dragicevic received his orders

10     from the inspectors, and very often he didn't even reply to my telephone

11     calls.

12        Q.   When you say those inspectors from which he received orders, if I

13     understand you properly, you meant the inspectors who had been sent from

14     the MUP unbeknownst to you and without your consent?

15        A.   Yes, Hodzic and the one who replaced him later.  There were

16     always two inspectors down there, those that had been sent by

17     Mr. Panjeta, but they often changed.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Again, unless there are objections,

20     I would like to tender this document into evidence.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D451, Your Honours.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could you please look at 782D1, tab 20.  And again, could you

25     comment on it.

Page 19509

 1        A.   Yes, this is a dispatch that I signed and sent to the minister of

 2     the interior, Delimustafic, deputy minister, and the administration of

 3     the police, and the administration for the detection and prevention of

 4     crimes.  It had become very obvious that the existing system or the

 5     system that was legally provided for, the system of control and command

 6     in the service, had been destroyed or suspended at the moment when those

 7     inspectors were sent out.

 8             We had somebody in Bosanski Brod and Bosanski Samac at all times,

 9     Omer Stambolic and, if I remember properly, Petar Amas [phoen] changed

10     places in those cities all the time.  They were covered by the

11     inspectors, and those inspectors were contrary to the system that was in

12     place.  They had contacts with the parties, with the SDA and the HDZ.

13     They also maintained contacts in the service exclusively with the members

14     of the Muslim and Croatian ethnicity, be it commanders, deputies, or

15     chiefs, and they drafted their own reports, their own information, that

16     they sent out and we had never had an opportunity to discuss those

17     reports that were sent out.  And we could all see where that was going

18     and what that was in service of.  And as I told you, that part of the

19     Sava valley, or Posavina, as it is known, was being tied to the organs in

20     Croatia in the municipality of Slavonski Brod.

21             And on the other hand, things were being put in place to organise

22     paramilitary units under the auspices of the SDA.  And that's what was

23     done in the territory of the municipalities of Doboj, Tesanj, Maglaj, and

24     at that time we already had very reliable information and data about what

25     was going on and what formations had already been established by that

Page 19510

 1     time and what weapons had already been distributed to them by that time.

 2        Q.   Tell me, did you send your reports to the Ministry of the

 3     Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as was, I

 4     presume, your duty under the laws and regulations in place?

 5        A.   But of course.  We had a constant flow of reports from our

 6     premises, as well as reports on security information.  The same applied

 7     to both public and state security.

 8        Q.   And were you privy to reports sent by those inspectors to the

 9     MUP?  You said that these matters were not discussed, but did -- were you

10     privy to those?

11        A.   No, I said that they drafted reports that they sent out without

12     consulting any of the people in any leading positions there, and I said

13     that I didn't know what they were sending out and that I was trying to

14     get in touch with them, both in writing and over the phone, trying to let

15     them know and reason with them that whatever we were doing in that area

16     had to be done jointly.  But it never came to us consulting, assessing,

17     or deciding on anything together.

18        Q.   With this particular dispatch, did you request anything of them

19     or did you make any suggestions or indications as to what your next steps

20     would be?

21        A.   Well, you can see there at the very end that I said that should

22     this practice continue, I would inform thereof the relevant authorities,

23     the general public, the federal SUP, et cetera.

24        Q.   Did you ask for a meeting with the leadership of the Ministry of

25     the Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 19511

 1        A.   Well, it was on several occasions that I asked for a meeting with

 2     the Minister Delimustafic, either over the telephone, by talking to the

 3     secretary, or in the letters that I wrote them, but I never, in fact,

 4     ended up meeting with the minister.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  The document itself says, I'm asking for the

 6     meeting, so that's why I was leading the question.  To save time.

 7             MS. KORNER:  The proper question, and you saw me get to my feet,

 8     is:  What did you do.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I will try my best.  Thank you.

10             If there is no -- I would like to admit this document if there's

11     no opposition to it.

12             MS. KORNER:  I'd like to know if the original, which is not a

13     very good copy, has a date.  And if not - I assume this is a document

14     this witness provided - could he tell us what the date is, please.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, can you give us the date of the document, or

17     roughly the period?

18        A.   Well, I can't date the document, but I think it was in late

19     February or early March that this happened.  I'm not sure.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, at the top, but it's so bad,

21     the copy, you can't see it, I want to know if the witness can tell us,

22     because, as I say, I assume he produced this document, what's on the top

23     of it, who -- what signature it is.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Maybe it can be enlarged on the monitor so witness

25     can comment.

Page 19512

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The initials up there probably

 2     belong to the individual who forwarded the dispatch.  As for what is up

 3     at the top, it's the date or the time when the dispatch was sent out and

 4     the reference number it was assigned.  It's the number in the log-book.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, is this your dispatch, and do you know if it was

 7     sent to the MUP at all?

 8        A.   Yes, of course it was sent to the MUP.  And I was explaining what

 9     it is that we can see in the upper left-hand corner.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, isn't this, as for documents I mean,

11     isn't this getting repetitive?

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, if it helps, I will -- we will accept,

13     on behalf of the Prosecution, that Mr. Bjelosevic complained for a number

14     of months to the MUP or officials of the MUP about things he said were

15     not being done properly.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but ...

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HALL:  The -- I don't know whether I properly understood

19     Ms. Korner's statement just now to mean that this acceptance - I was

20     going to use the word "concession," but I would use the vague word

21     "acceptance" - means that it isn't necessary, in the Prosecution's view,

22     for more documents of this repetitive nature to be overlaid before us.

23             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I think that's a matter for you

24     and for Mr. Zecevic.  I'm simply pointing out that I'm certainly not

25     going to dispute that this witness complained on a number of occasions

Page 19513

 1     about things that he said were not being done properly.  Whether his

 2     complaints are justified or not is another matter.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, that's -- maybe the witness can --

 4             [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, can you take your headphones off

 5     and the microphones.

 6             [In English] Your Honours, the point of the matter is exactly

 7     this:  First of all, whether it was justified, it is for Your Honours to

 8     decide.  Now, I'm trying to show you, because our position is that his

 9     complaints were more than justified because he is actually repeating and

10     repeating and asking and asking and he doesn't get the proper response

11     from the ministry as he should have.  That's one thing.

12             The second thing, Your Honours:  This document is after the

13     11th of February.  Therefore, the suggestion of the Office of the

14     Prosecutor or their theory that the 11th of February means that the

15     ultimate decision to split the MUP and that Serbian MUP will have nothing

16     to do with the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina anymore is clearly wrong,

17     because he, Mr. Bjelosevic, who was there, who discussed on that meeting

18     like you will see in a second, is now asking again Minister Delimustafic

19     and is bringing to his attention the wrong-doings, the problems, and he's

20     asking a meeting with Delimustafic.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Point taken, Mr. Zecevic.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, that is not a proper or accurate

24     description of what we say about the 11th of February meeting, but

25     Your Honours will hear what I have to say when we get to cross.

Page 19514

 1             JUDGE HALL:  So the document is admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D452, Your Honours.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My apologies, I forget.  Can you hear me?  Can you hear me now?

 5     No.

 6        A.   Now I can hear properly.

 7        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, did you attend a meeting in Banja Luka, and, if

 8     so, can you tell us when this was and what the reason for it was and what

 9     the subject of discussions at this meeting was?

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Are you now going to the meeting on

11     11th of February?

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is right, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please would -- because then I would like to ask

14     the witness a question before we come to the meeting of 11th February.

15             Because, Mr. Bjelosevic, I would like to know, if you can tell

16     us, what was your interpretation of the fact that the MUP in Sarajevo,

17     under Alija Delimustafic's orders, was sending out inspectors who

18     interfered with the ordinary work of the SJBs in Doboj and indeed in the

19     CSB of Doboj itself?  What did you think was going on, can you tell us?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Frankly speaking, to this day I'm

21     not clear on whether this was Minister Delimustafic's decision or whether

22     all these matters ended up with Mr. Pusina, because I had never seen a

23     dispatch signed by Mr. Delimustafic on this issue, or, rather, I have

24     never received one.  Jusuf Pusina sent out a dispatch after two or three

25     interventions on my part asking to be told what these individuals were

Page 19515

 1     doing, but I sent my letters every time to the minister's office.

 2             Now, generally speaking, as for these inspectors being sent to

 3     Doboj, Bosanski Brod, and Bosanski Samac, my understanding was that this

 4     was in the service of preparing, organising, and creating certain

 5     paramilitary units which would subsequently, in part, become the BH army

 6     and in part would come under the command of the ministry in Sarajevo,

 7     because the normal workings of a service out in the field, especially

 8     once those check-points were set up under check-point 91 operation, would

 9     not allow for such practices.  There were instances where people bent on

10     sabotage were stopped, I think it was in Brcko and elsewhere, and they

11     were found to have explosives on them.  And in the area of the CSB Doboj,

12     our traffic police stops a vehicle that was on its way there from Germany

13     and which was under police escort.  It was packed full of military

14     equipment.

15             Now that I've mentioned this, let me say that from that point

16     when the police stopped this vehicle, we, and when I say "we," I mean the

17     CSB of Doboj, were imposed some sort of sanctions.  The regular supplies,

18     with vehicles, radio sets, weapons, and other equipment, although

19     planned, stopped at that point.  This was another subject of my

20     complaints, repeated complaints, because none of the equipment that we

21     were due was forthcoming.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So you had the suspicion that the Muslims were

23     secretly organising paramilitary units who at one point would seek to

24     take over command in Doboj and the surrounding SJBs; is that a correct

25     interpretation of what you have told us?

Page 19516

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The only difference being

 2     that this wasn't based on suspicions or doubt.  It was based on verified

 3     information about the goings on.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This raises two questions to me.  First of all,

 5     what did you do to counter this development?  And, secondly, how or why

 6     did this involve the Croats?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then let me first start from

 8     the latter then.  At a time of election campaigns, the HDZ and SDA

 9     attended rallies together as a coalition, and at some of these rallies

10     their two flags would even be tied up together symbolically.  This was to

11     serve as a symbol of their unity.  And these circles had roughly the same

12     objective, namely to break up the former Yugoslavia.  Now, what is it

13     that I and the service did?  We provided regular information on all these

14     events that we learned of, and that was the extent of what we were able

15     to do.  The information was sent to the Ministry of the Interior.

16             When federal inspectors were present in our area, we told them

17     what we knew about what was going on as well.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  We may get back to this at a later

19     point.  I notice the time, so maybe this is an appropriate moment to take

20     the break.

21             JUDGE HALL:  We resume in 20 minutes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in relation to the

Page 19517

 1     discussion we had this morning, I would like to tell the Court that we

 2     have just received the translation of the expert report by

 3     General Kovacevic and it will be uploaded as we speak and made available

 4     to all parties.  What remains now is to translate some 20 footnotes.  And

 5     according to the CLSS, that should be completed by the end of the week.

 6             So that all of the documents that are mentioned in the footnotes

 7     will be also uploaded into e-court before the end of the week and thus

 8     made available to all parties as well.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you for the update, Mr. Krgovic.

10             Yes, could we have the witness back on the stand, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, while we're just waiting for the

12     witness to come in, Your Honours yesterday raised the question of an

13     e-mail circulating about sitting times once Your Honours' other case

14     starts.  At the moment nobody seems to have got any e-mail, either us or

15     the Defence, about that.  All we -- I see everybody shaking their head.

16     Obviously it would help from our points of view, particularly, I imagine,

17     from Mr. Zecevic's point of view, to know well in advance what is

18     proposed by the Court as to the sitting.  From our point of view, I think

19     it makes more sense to have a block devoted to one case rather than, say,

20     two days on one, two days on other, but that may not be what the Defence

21     want.  But anyhow, I think it would help if we could be told.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, the -- when I mention -- well, first of all,

24     obviously I took advantage of the opportunity to alert counsel as early

25     as possible to this, and the notion of an e-mail was what a our

Page 19518

 1     understanding, as the Judges, were that the -- at the level of the SLOs,

 2     that they were going to generate this, and by that means involve counsel

 3     in the two related cases.  So I just assumed that this had been

 4     initiated, but I had no reason to follow-up on where this was.

 5             The Judges have discussed the possibility; they have their views.

 6     But obviously this will -- the final determination will depend on the

 7     views that counsel may have in terms of the proposals.  So these -- it's

 8     relatively -- I was about to say it's relatively early yet, but then I'm

 9     reminded we're in the middle of April so it isn't as early as I think,

10     but clearly it's a matter which is going to have to be resolved well in

11     advance of June.  But I could make inquiries as to the status of the

12     communication and see where we are.

13             MS. KORNER:  Well, that would be very helpful.  And can I just,

14     say after many years at this Tribunal, I'm sure that Defence counsel will

15     endorse the fact that it is never safe to assume anything.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic, you may continue.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it was my understanding that Judge Harhoff

18     was having some other questions.  I'm perfectly willing to continue.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  There may be one little question that I still

20     would wish to raise with the witness before we come to the meeting of the

21     11th of February.

22             And my question relates to the link between the facts that you

23     had about Muslims secretly building up armed units and the transportation

24     of weapons from Germany and other places into Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25             Did you understand these transports of weaponry to be linked to

Page 19519

 1     the Muslim build-up of paramilitary units in Bosnia?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let me remind you that at

 3     that time the Yugoslavia still existed as one whole country and the state

 4     security service was organised, existed at the federal level and at the

 5     level of the republics.  Our operatives from the CSB Doboj received good

 6     intelligence from their contacts in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina;

 7     they knew very well what was going on.  I have already described to you

 8     how the traffic police stopped a vehicle, and I know for a fact about

 9     that vehicle because it was said at the time that they had arrived from

10     Germany with weaponry.  They were under escort of police control from, I

11     think, Posusje.  The police patrol joined them in Samac; they escorted

12     the vehicle all along on that itinerary until just before entering Doboj;

13     they were stopped by our traffic police at the intersection in Seslije,

14     where the roads from Bosanski Brod and Bosanski Samac converge and then

15     continue jointly via Doboj.

16             Since the transport involved military equipment, military police

17     came to the scene shortly thereafter.  They took over the vehicle.  And

18     the equipment and the police escorting the vehicle were taken to the

19     pensioners centre, given dinner, and then released to go back to their

20     home stations.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And these policemen who were escorting the

22     vehicle, if I understand you correctly, they were Muslim policemen; is

23     that correct?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember their ethnicity.

25     But they wore proper uniforms.  I think they were from Posusje.  I'm not

Page 19520

 1     sure.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, I mean, this is completely open.  Does that

 3     mean that they -- these -- the escort -- the police escort could as well

 4     have been Serbian and the weaponry was meant to be delivered to the

 5     Serbian side?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because the driver driving that

 7     truck said for whom it was intended.  The policemen could have been of

 8     any ethnicity, those who were assigned to that task, because they were

 9     not told what the vehicle contained and what the purpose was.  I really

10     don't remember their ethnicity or their names right now.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And to whom was the weaponry meant to be

12     delivered?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were to escort it to Sarajevo.

14     That's what they said.  The driver himself gave a statement later on.

15     Since this involved military equipment, it was taken over by the military

16     police and the JNA security organ.  And they initiated proceedings

17     subsequently because this came under their jurisdiction because it

18     involved military equipment.  As for the policemen, they returned to

19     their home police station.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand that.  But I still do not fully

21     understand how you could link the allegations that you have, that you had

22     at the time, about Muslims building up secretly-armed units on the one

23     hand, and then on the other hand this transport of weaponry into Bosnia,

24     when apparently you're not sure about to whom this weaponry was supposed

25     to be delivered.

Page 19521

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already told you that we had a

 2     number of pieces of information and this was all forwarded to the MUP in

 3     Sarajevo.  We had various pieces of intelligence about paramilitary

 4     formations, where they were being established, their strength.  And we

 5     also had information about where the weapons arrived.  Some of this we

 6     learned subsequently.  And in this particular case we knew as the weapons

 7     were being transported.

 8             Now, your question was how did I know, how did we know, whom this

 9     was intended for.  Well, they talked to the driver.  And once they took

10     over the equipment and investigated, they subsequently informed us that

11     this was intended for a unit of the SDA in Sarajevo.  That's the

12     information we received from them, from the army.

13             And let me tell you this:  Back at that time while the police

14     still worked at the check-point in Bosanski Brod, we were informed that a

15     vehicle was supposed to arrive from Slavonski Brod escorted by

16     Mr. Delimustafic.  And when the vehicle, indeed carrying

17     Minister Delimustafic, arrived, the policemen didn't dare inspect either

18     his vehicle or the vehicle following him once he showed his papers.  We

19     drafted an Official Note regarding this, but it's understandable; the

20     policemen simply didn't dare inspect the minister.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did you have any information that the opposite

22     side, that is to say, the Serbs, were also trying to build up armed units

23     and perhaps importing weapons?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All three sides were arming

25     themselves.  That's a fact.  However, the Serbian side responded en masse

Page 19522

 1     to the JNA mobilisation call.  So during that time there were no units

 2     created on their side.  But as for weapons being obtained illegally, that

 3     was a fact, yes.  And we received information concerning that too.

 4             I have already mentioned to you yesterday, if you remember, that

 5     guards were being set up, and later on that escalated in numbers on all

 6     sides.  However, when it comes to paramilitary formations, as I have told

 7     you, the Serbs mostly responded to the JNA mobilisation call-up, so they

 8     didn't create their own units, except for being part of those village

 9     guards, et cetera.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think we should stop here.  And I give the

11     floor back to Mr. Zecevic.  Thank you very much, sir.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, we need 1D135, tab 18.  But

14     before we turn to the document, let me remind you of the question that I

15     have already put to you:  Did you attend the meeting on the

16     11th of February in Banja Luka?

17        A.   1992, yes.

18        Q.   This document represents the minutes of that meeting, that's

19     tab 18.  Please go over the document and tell us whether you remember

20     that the persons mentioned in the preamble really attended the meeting.

21     Did you yourself attend, what was said at the meeting, and what did you

22     yourself say at the meeting?

23        A.   Yes.  That is the accurate list of attendees.  I attend the

24     meeting as well.  At the meeting we discussed the problems related to the

25     functioning of the MUP.  To make it clearer:  Since the system was, we

Page 19523

 1     can surely say that, already falling apart, there was mistrust, and the

 2     police and crime service had difficulties working on the ground because

 3     the citizens mistrusted them.  And there was especially prominent

 4     mistrust between citizens of one ethnicity towards policemen who were of

 5     a different ethnicity.  If we add to this situation another problem which

 6     is lack of equipment, which was quite apparent, and I've already

 7     described to you how that looked like, we did not receive any of the

 8     materiel that had been planned to be delivered to us.  So when we take

 9     all of that into account, it is clear that we had serious problems

10     working on the ground.

11             At this meeting, as you can see, everybody took the floor,

12     including me.  My words are recorded here.  All of the attendees mostly

13     spoke about the problems due to either complete failure to function or

14     poor functioning of the MUP.  They mentioned the fact that the meetings

15     were not held, collegium meetings were not held, between the minister and

16     chiefs of centre, that equipment was being delivered to the stations

17     selectively.  And then it was concluded that it would be better to

18     organise this service within the framework of what was to be called the

19     Serbian MUP, but a functioning MUP, and to ensure, as you can see from

20     the interventions of attendees, law and order, security of citizens - I

21     emphasise "citizens" because that's what was said at the meeting - and

22     property.

23             If this MUP that was discussed was to have a prefix "Serbian"

24     before it, that didn't mean that they would selectively implement the

25     law, or act in a discriminatory manner.

Page 19524

 1        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, on page 2 and 3 of the Serbian version, we can

 2     see your intervention.  And since this is an abbreviated version of your

 3     words, could you please confirm whether you spoke about this and whether

 4     you mentioned anything else.  Please tell us about that.

 5        A.   This is the essence of what I spoke about.  Those were my words.

 6        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, do you remember if there were some conclusions

 7     reached at the meeting?

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat his answer, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they were listed here.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Please repeat your answer.  The interpreter didn't hear it.

13        A.   I said, Yes, conclusions were reached and they are listed in this

14     document.

15        Q.   To the best of your recollection was one of the conclusions that

16     the positions reached at the 11th of February meeting should be notified

17     to Minister Delimustafic and that the ministry should be given dead-lines

18     within which the situation established to be irregular would be

19     rectified?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   To your recollection was there any mention of these positions and

22     views that were established on the 11th of February meeting being

23     notified to the general public through the media?

24        A.   Yes, this was a fully transparent public meeting and the general

25     public was informed of it.

Page 19525

 1        Q.   After the meeting, did the situation in the area of your CSB and

 2     did the relationship with Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist

 3     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with the CSB Doboj change in any way?

 4        A.   No.  The situation became complicated even further and nothing

 5     changed in terms of supplies arriving, save for the fact that letters

 6     were sent stating requests for supplies and no replies were received.

 7     Still, we did press on with the correspondence by sending various

 8     dispatches.  What followed was continued at even more glaring violation

 9     of rules, regulations, and laws.

10        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I'll show you a document behind tab 23, and the document is

14     786D1.  This is a dispatch dated the 9th of March, 1992.  There's a

15     signature there and a typewritten name of Andrija Bjelosevic.  Tell me,

16     do you recall this dispatch; is it yours?

17        A.   Yes, I do recall this dispatch.  It's mine.  It's got my

18     signature on it.  At this time the situation was already dramatic; I

19     think I can put it that way.  By that time there had already been

20     conflicts breaking out in Bosanski Brod.  And I think it was between the

21     3rd and the 4th of March, there were people wounded by that time.  I'd

22     like to stress that on this occasion the public security station of

23     Bosanski Brod was captured by paramilitary formations.  The CSB Doboj

24     received a great deal of information about it.

25             The Hotel Arda [as interpreted] in Bosanski Brod, where this unit

Page 19526

 1     stationed by MUP was housed, was also surrounded.  The personnel was

 2     disarmed.  When the policemen noticed that the hotel was being

 3     surrounded, they took up arms; they wanted to mount resistance.  But the

 4     then chief of the station, Zvonko Mertanovic [phoen], said that they

 5     should lay their weapons down and said, and I'm quoting his words, Those

 6     are our people.  When the policemen laid down their weapons, masked

 7     individuals wearing balaclavas on their heads stormed into the hotel,

 8     disarmed them, and stripped them of all their equipment.  And they had

 9     flak jackets, radio sets, rifles.  They were stripped of it all but were

10     given back their pistols ultimately.  And they were ordered to go back to

11     where they came from.

12             This unit was under the command of Drago Gatisa [phoen], a police

13     inspector in the security services centre in Bihac.  They left Bosnia

14     Brod at that point.  As for the town itself, the public security station

15     had been seized and taken over, as were many other key institutions by

16     paramilitary formations from Slavonski Brod and from the area of the

17     Bosanski Brod municipality.

18             Moreover, I need to share with you an impression that I got at

19     the time:  First of all, this was obviously a deliberate surrender of

20     both the unit and the station itself.  All of these operations were

21     directed by Avdo Hebib; he was in charge of it all.  As for the MUP of

22     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was customary for it to

23     engage the services of special units in situations that were far less

24     dramatic than this one.  For instance, when there was a strike in the

25     company called Focatrans, they were engaged.  Whereas in this particular

Page 19527

 1     situation, no special police unit was sent out to prevent this from

 2     happening, from the violation of what is established in the system.  And

 3     it was here that I was trying to prevent the conflict from escalating and

 4     becoming an all-out conflict.  So I suggested that we form joint forces

 5     with the military organs, which would be capable under those

 6     circumstances of restoring law and order.

 7             Now, why these joint forces?  If I can explain this.  I've

 8     already said before that the Serbian population responded to call-ups

 9     from the JNA, and they trusted the Yugoslav People's Army.  The other two

10     ethnic communities were more confident with MUP and placed greater trust

11     in them.  It was for this reason that I suggested that mixed forces

12     should be set up, which would work together to restore law and order.

13             In the area of the municipality of Doboj - and this is not

14     directly related to this dispatch, but I would like to corroborate what

15     I'm saying - pursuant to a decision by the National Defence Council, such

16     forces were indeed set up.  These were mixed check-points.  And the

17     situation was pretty much stable under the circumstances.

18        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, can we just clarify a few things that you stated

19     in your answer.  Was there a unit that the MUP of the Socialist Republic

20     of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time of these events in Bosanski Brod had

21     deployed previously already in Bosanski Brod?

22        A.   Yes, there was.  This unit that I mentioned as having been

23     disarmed in Hotel Sava, that was the unit that was there from before.

24     However, Mr. Hebib and Mr. Matanovic as chief of station, and this is

25     something that was clear for all to see and something that the policemen

Page 19528

 1     who were present in the area reported in their subsequent reports, they

 2     surrendered both the station and the unit to the members of these

 3     paramilitary formations.  They practically didn't mount any resistance at

 4     all.

 5        Q.   Two short questions:  This unit, which was there, I suppose, as

 6     reinforcement or aid for the Bosnia Brod Police Station, was it set up by

 7     the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   Yes.  Avdo Hebib was the co-ordinator of that body.

 9        Q.   Tell me, if you know, was this a multi-ethnic unit?  What was its

10     composition?

11        A.   It was a multi-ethnic unit, but I can't give you the percentages.

12     The unit wasn't under my control, after all.

13        Q.   My final question on this:  You, as chief of CSB, were you

14     informed of the deployment of one such unit by the MUP of the

15     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina into a station that was within

16     your area?

17        A.   I wasn't informed about it by the MUP.  I learned this when they

18     arrived in Bosanski Brod and it was then that the station in

19     Bosanski Brod put me on notice of this.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Unless there are objection, can

22     this document be admitted, please.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D453, Your Honours.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19529

 1        Q.   Sir, to illustrate the situation in Bosanski Brod, I'll show you

 2     a document behind tab 24, 788D1.  The date is the 12th of March, 1992.

 3     It's a statement by one Petar Duronjic, a citizen of Bosanski Brod, given

 4     to the Doboj CSB.  Please tell me if you are familiar with the statement

 5     and if you know what this is about.

 6        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with the statement which was taken on the

 7     premises of CSB Doboj by Inspector Branislav Petricevic.

 8        Q.   A moment, please.

 9             Can you tell us, Who was Branislav Petricevic?  An inspector of

10     what?

11        A.   An inspector in the department for crime detection and

12     Prevention.

13        Q.   A moment, please.

14             And his signature as well as signatures of other individuals can

15     be found on the second page; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.  This is one of the documents and one of the stories told by

17     a citizen in relation to the 3rd and 4th of March.  People were fleeing

18     Bosanski Brod en masse trying to find refuge because a wave of arrests of

19     citizens of Serb ethnicity began and there were a number of citizens of

20     Muslim ethnicity who were arrested as well and they were those who were

21     of pro-Yugoslav orientation, as it were.  And now that I've mentioned it,

22     I'd like to cite a case involving Ismet Djuheric [phoen] whose house was

23     attacked later on, I don't remember the date, where he and his wife and

24     daughter resisted the attack in self-defence.  Later on his brother was

25     captured.  The entire family had many troubles, but he managed to get out

Page 19530

 1     of the area; I think it was through his connections within the refinery

 2     that was there.

 3             People were abandoning their homes and properties, their jobs,

 4     trying to get themselves out of harm's way, whoever had the ability to do

 5     so.  And it is only natural that they were very worried and concerned and

 6     upset.  They were looking for help.  However, by that time, Bosanski Brod

 7     had been blocked by these forces.  And as is stated here, these were

 8     paramilitary formations, units of the National Guard's Corps, HOS, and

 9     some other local units.

10        Q.   Sir, just a few things.  The gentleman that you have just

11     mentioned, Ismet Djukalic [as interpreted], you said?

12        A.   Djukalic.

13        Q.   He was a Muslim, was he not?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Tell me, according to what you know, since you know, you are

16     familiar with the case, who was it that attacked his house when he had to

17     defend himself together with his family?

18        A.   The paramilitary formations, the HOS members.

19        Q.   Could you just explain for all of us, What does HOS stand for?

20        A.   The Croatian Armed Forces.

21        Q.   Thank you.  At that time in 1992, in the month of March, you were

22     familiar with this statement, you were familiar with the case of this

23     Mr. Duronjic from Bosanski Brod; yes or no?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

Page 19531

 1     would like to tender this document into evidence.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  We have reservations about how much of assistance

 4     this is, Mr. -- we have the witness's testimony relating these

 5     incidents -- this incident --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  I understand.  It's

 7     not important.  I just wanted this document to illustrate the situation

 8     and confirm the words of the witness.  But if Your Honours feel that it's

 9     not --

10             JUDGE HALL:  We have his account.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand.  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm sorry, can I just -- can I just,

13     again, just mention this:  Again, how far is this going to go?  This is

14     not evidence relating to any municipalities on the indictment.  I

15     appreciate it's being adduced for the reasons that Mr. Zecevic has

16     explained, but I do -- and this is not an in terrorem remark:  It will be

17     necessary to explore areas partially in cross, if this line of

18     examination-in-chief is going on, which are completely outside the

19     indictment, and I'm afraid that is the reality.  And it's already

20     happened, I'm afraid.  So, I mean, I'm not quite clear on what basis

21     Your Honours are accepting this kind of evidence.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Mr. Zecevic.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you now look at document at tab 26, 787D1.

25     Or rather, let's skip that document.  I want to avoid any future

Page 19532

 1     objections of the same kind.

 2             Let's look at tab 27, document number 970D1 [as interpreted].

 3     This is a dispatch dated 16 March 1992.  It was sent to the MUP of the

 4     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Your name is typed up, and

 5     there's also a signature.  Could you tell us whether this dispatch was

 6     sent by you, whether it was drafted by you, are you familiar with this

 7     dispatch?  Did you send it to the MUP?  What is the dispatch about?

 8        A.   Yes, I signed this dispatch.  I'm familiar with the contents

 9     thereof.  The situation on the ground was becoming dramatic and that's

10     why I appealed and I urged all the concerned to proceed to set up the

11     joint forces of the police and the army in order to put a stop to the war

12     that was in the making, I dare say, by that time.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please, Mr. Zecevic.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   This document or, rather, this dispatch, was it sent to the MUP?

17     And who was the addressee, who received it?

18        A.   The addressee is the office of the minister; the police

19     administration; the administration for crime detection and prevention;

20     and then 05, which was the analytical service, I believe.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

22     would like to tender this document into evidence.

23             MS. KORNER:  No, no objections.  Query:  Whose writing is on the

24     document, please?  And who did the crossings out?

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19533

 1        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, we can see that things were added by hand.  Could

 2     you help us with that?

 3        A.   I did that.  When the dispatch was typed and brought to me for

 4     signature, I added these writings in order to highlight the urgency of

 5     the matter.  I wanted everything to be done to prevent any further

 6     escalation of the situation.  So these are my writings.  I added that to

 7     the typed-up dispatch.

 8             MS. KORNER:  And, sorry, and does that mean deleted the line that

 9     we can see as well?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I deleted the lines as well

11     because I thought that the description of the area was irrelevant because

12     the situation was getting to be more complicated in the entire area,

13     across the board.  I had created the document, I made changes to it, I

14     deleted things from it, and then I signed it.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just one correction.  It was recorded

17     wrongly:  The 65 ter number is 790D1.  Thank you.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1D454.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, we have another document:  185D1 at tab 31.  This

21     is a dispatch sent on the 31st of March, 1992.  Your name is typed up.

22     But before that we have the word "Za," on behalf of the chief of centre,

23     and the signature, and it was sent only to some public security stations,

24     as we see.  Could you please tell us whether you are familiar with this

25     document; do you remember it?  Can you give us some explanations with

Page 19534

 1     regard to this document?

 2        A.   Yes, I remember this document.  It was signed on my behalf by the

 3     chief of the police department, Mr. Vojo Blagovic [as interpreted].  I

 4     recognise his signature.  We had concluded at our morning briefing that

 5     it was necessary to summon the commanders of the police stations because

 6     there were some issues that had to be discussed with them at a meeting.

 7     You have noticed really well that the dispatch was not sent to the

 8     Bosanski Brod Public Security Station because already at that time the

 9     connections with them were interrupted.  They just cut us off, if I may

10     put it that way.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you perhaps remember what was said at the meeting

12     on the 1st of April?

13        A.   The chief of the police department chaired the meeting and we

14     discussed the complexity of the situation and we tried to come up with an

15     assessment as to what the police could do in such an environment.

16        Q.   Did the meeting actually take place?

17        A.   Yes, it did.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

20     would like to tender the document.

21             JUDGE HALL:  There was a meeting on the 1st of April.  We don't

22     need the internal memorandum saying that there will be a meeting on the

23     1st of April, do we, Mr. Zecevic?

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, the 1st of April is -- maybe

25     the witness can ...

Page 19535

 1             [Interpretation] Could you please remove your headphones.

 2             [In English] Well, Your Honours, the 1st of April is an important

 3     date because that's the date when the Serbian MUP was formed.  That is

 4     why I choose this particular date.  The 1st of April, 1992.  And they are

 5     having a meeting on the 1st of April, 1992 --

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yeah, but my query doesn't relate to the meeting.

 7     That appears to be relevant.  It's the narrow question as to whether we

 8     need to admit this piece of paper.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, if you will -- I just wanted to reflect the

10     witness's memory about this meeting and who were -- who was informed to

11     that meeting because I think that's important.

12             MS. KORNER:  We support the application on this occasion.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D455, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Now you can hear me?

19        A.   Yes, I can.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm going to show you another

21     document, 796D1 at tab 32.  This is a dispatch which came from the MUP of

22     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 6th of April, 1992.

23     It was signed by the Minister of the Interior Alija Delimustafic.  Do you

24     remember this dispatch and could you please tell us what the dispatch was

25     about?

Page 19536

 1        A.   Yes, I can remember it.  It seems that I've already stated that

 2     all the legal bodies including public security stations and security

 3     centres had their own plans of defence in case of war or an immediate

 4     threat of war.  They also had plans for emergencies and extraordinary

 5     situations.  One of the documents that was contained both in the plan for

 6     emergencies as well as in the defence plan was called measures for

 7     readiness, or readiness measures.  Those alert measures were divided into

 8     three groups, the measures were adopted by the Executive Council, and

 9     there was also a system in place for conveying those alert measures.

10             The alert measures in Group 1 concerned all emergencies.  Some of

11     the measures in Group 2 concerned emergencies, and the other part

12     concerned war and an immediate threat of war.  Whereas the measures in

13     the 3rd degree concerned actions to be taken in war and under an

14     immediate threat of war.

15             The procedure was very clear and it transpired from federal and

16     republican regulations.  It was well known who was supposed to issue an

17     order for those measures to be put in place, who was to convey those

18     measures, and who was supposed to act upon such orders, i.e., who was

19     supposed to implement those measures on the ground.

20        Q.   Just one clarification I would like to seek from you.  On

21     page 48, line 23, it has been recorded that you said "Executive Council."

22     What Executive Council did you have in mind?  And what was the role of

23     the Executive Council?

24        A.   I meant the federal Executive Council.  And that was the federal

25     government at the time.

Page 19537

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, do we have or will we have this order

 2     either in the law library or otherwise?

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, Your Honours.  I don't think so.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Was that -- the question is:  Do we or will we?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't think we do or I'm afraid we don't have the

 6     order.  We just have the documents which were sent from the MUP SRBiH to

 7     some of the CSB, including this particular document.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  The reason why I ask is that it would certainly be

 9     more comprehensible if we saw the order rather than have what the witness

10     or any other witnesses says the order says.  That's the ... was my

11     concern.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, this is actually the order of

13     the minister.  This is the order of the minister, and it --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, I'm talking about the reference in the first

15     paragraph to the order on alert measures.  And you've asked the witness

16     what these degrees were.  That's what I'm asking about.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, we can certainly try to -- to see with our

18     police expert, maybe he can be helpful in that respect.  I will certainly

19     keep that in mind to try to accommodate Your Honours.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] I apologise, did you have anything else to add,

23     Mr. Bjelosevic, with regard to this document, or not?

24        A.   I don't think that I finished my last sentence.  Those measures

25     or part of the measures from the 2nd and 3rd degrees were fully within

Page 19538

 1     the purview of the Presidency of the SFRY.  I mean that the Presidency of

 2     the SFRY could issue orders with regard to those measures.  And all the

 3     other bodies in the chain could only implement them.  Nobody else had the

 4     right to issue the implementation of those measures, save for the

 5     Presidency of the SFRY.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much for this clarification.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I

 8     would like to tender this document into evidence.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D456, Your Honours.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, we have another document at tab 33, 795D1.

13     That's also a dispatch dated the 6th of April, 1992.  It was drafted by

14     the minister of Alija -- minister for the interior, Alija Delimustafic.

15     This is typed up.  There is also an initial or a signature.  And the

16     dispatch was sent to all the SDB administrations and all chiefs of

17     SJB administrations.  Are you familiar with this document?  Did you ever

18     receive it?  Could you tell us something about that?

19        A.   Yes.  I am familiar with this dispatch.  This is an order that

20     all active personnel of the organs of the Ministry of the Interior report

21     immediately to their posts, and we abided by this dispatch.  I think we

22     also informed the authorities that we fully complied with the

23     instructions.

24        Q.   So this is a dispatch from the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It comes from the minister.  And pursuant to

Page 19539

 1     this order of 6 of April, 1992, you fully complied with it?

 2        A.   Yes.  And we informed the authorities that we did so.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I tender this into evidence unless

 4     there are objections.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D457.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, one moment, please.

 8             Mr. Bjelosevic, if I understand you well, the previous order, the

 9     order on the status of alert, could not have been issued by

10     Minister Delimustafic, in your opinion; is that right?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I received in translation was

12     the "order on alert," so I'm not sure what you're referring to.  For the

13     personnel to report to their posts?  Or are you referring to the alert

14     measures from the previous document?

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The alert measures from the previous document.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, in accordance with

17     the regulations on this matter, minister of the interior or government of

18     any republic or Presidency of any republic could [as interpreted] issue

19     any orders on alert from the 3rd degree or some measures from the

20     2nd degree that lay exclusively within the jurisdiction at the federal

21     level of the Presidency and president.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  And this one, the one we have in front of

23     us now, on the reporting to the duty stations, this one is a measure the

24     minister could issue, is an order the minister could issue?  Yes.  You

25     complied with this one?

Page 19540

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Did you comply with the previous one?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So you complied with both of them?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naturally.  But I also pointed out

 6     to the minister that regulations were being violated.  I was duty-bound

 7     to do that; however, we also had to comply with orders.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I see the time, Your Honour.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE HALL:  It's time for the break.  We will resume in

11     20 minutes.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I apologise, I understand we kept

16     you waiting, and we're very sorry.  We were having an animated discussion

17     about the events of Brod, Slavonski and Bosanska.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just one intervention in the

20     transcript.  Page 52, line 7, it says:

21             "... any republic or Presidency of any republic could" not "issue

22     any orders on alert from the 3rd third degree or some measures from the

23     2nd degree that lay exclusively with the jurisdiction of the federal

24     level of the Presidency and president."

25             So "not" is not there.  Line 7, page 52.

Page 19541

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  You may be seated, sir.

 4             Yes, please continue, Mr. Zecevic.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, to go back to what we spoke

 7     before the break, would you please turn to tab 42, 307D1.  I apologise, I

 8     apologise, I gave you the wrong reference.  We need 186D1, tab 34.  I

 9     apologise.

10             This is a dispatch from the 6th of April, 1992, so the same day

11     when you received the order from Minister Delimustafic.  This dispatch

12     was sent to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

13     to the federal MUP for information.  We see your name and signature,

14     which is not very legible.  But first of all tell us, is this your

15     document?  And if so, would you please comment on it.

16        A.   Yes, it is my document.  I sent it and I signed it.  I believed

17     it to be my duty to point out to the fact that the previous order had

18     violated regulations, and I thought it was my duty to inform about that.

19     By ordering those measures, the minister had in fact declared the state

20     of war, because one of the measures of the 3rd degree says carry out

21     general mobilisation and start working in accordance with defence plan.

22     That's what it means, practically.  This is why I believed it was

23     necessary to do this.  I was familiar with the regulations.  Let me

24     remind you that I used to work in the then Secretariat for the

25     National Defence and for a number of years I had worked on defence

Page 19542

 1     preparations, so I was very well familiar with these matters and

 2     regulations.  I also served as undersecretary for National Defence, and I

 3     believe this to be a gross violation of federal regulations and laws.

 4             There was also a document which was marked "state secret" at the

 5     time, a document that was sent to the MUP, among others, and that

 6     document said exactly the same thing that I said about who was entitled

 7     to order what and who was duty-bound to convey what.  I simply

 8     highlighted this issue.

 9        Q.   Your last sentence, I think you were not clear enough.  I think I

10     understood you but I don't think the interpreters did.  Did you mean that

11     you earlier on had received from the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina a document explaining who was authorised to order

13     implementation of measures of the 2nd and 3rd degree?

14        A.   Yes, precisely so.  And we can see in this document the

15     registration or reference number of that document.

16        Q.   So that is the last sentence of the document we see on the screen

17     now?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  That's precisely where I make the reference to that

19     previous document.  It says 08.147.  And classification DT means

20     everything that pertained to defence preparations.  This is how those

21     documents were registered.  And then I give the date when that document

22     was sent out.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have this admitted,

25     please.

Page 19543

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D458, Your Honours.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have the number again, please.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  458, Your Honours.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Next document, sir, is tab 35, 187D1.  Again a

 7     dispatch bearing the same date, the 6th of April.  It says, in typed

 8     letters, Chief of Centre Andrija Bjelosevic and then we see a signature

 9     and we also see something that is handwritten.  Could you explain to us

10     what is this dispatch about and is this your dispatch?  Do you remember

11     that?

12        A.   Yes, I remember.  This pertained to the order that all personnel

13     should report to their duty stations, to their posts, and that we were to

14     inform about it within a given dead-line.  Here we see the response,

15     namely that that dispatch had been complied with.  And you see it here

16     that four staff members are on sick leave and the others replied to their

17     duty stations, the necessary instructions are given to the heads, and so

18     on.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have this admitted,

21     please.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, does the document give us anything

23     else but the fact that the witness complied with the order, which he

24     already stated before the break?  He stated that he complied with the

25     order.  This is confirmation of that.  Do we need that?

Page 19544

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, the theory of the Prosecutor's

 2     case was that once the Serbian MUP was established, there has been

 3     nothing -- that the CSBs within the MUP and the personnel of the MUP of

 4     Republika Srpska were actually following only the orders of the MUP of

 5     RS.  Now, we can see here on the very explicit document on the same date

 6     when the order was sent from the ministry of SRBiH signed by

 7     Minister Delimustafic to this CSB, and this chief of the CSB does follow

 8     the order of the SRBiH MUP by Minister Delimustafic and informs about it.

 9     So that is why I think this document is relevant.  And there are some

10     other documents which I intend to show, which confirm that position of

11     the -- of the Defence.  However the Office of the Prosecutor, as far as I

12     understand, is having the different theory of the case.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, you might wish to elicit from the

15     witness a little more information about the structure that applied after

16     1st of April because at least to me, speaking just for myself, it is

17     somewhat unclear whether this document was in compliance with an order or

18     an instruction given by the old MUP, so to say, because I understand that

19     as of 1st of April the RS MUP was established.  So my question is:  Were

20     there then two MUPs, one Serb and one old BiH, and so -- and how was the

21     witness relating to each of these?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  That was precisely my next question to the witness,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So we are on the same lines.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, I intended to do that.  I was just offering

Page 19545

 1     this document for the admittance.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So we'll admit it and have it marked as an exhibit.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D459, Your Honours.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you hear me, Mr. Bjelosevic?

 6        A.   No.  Yes, it's fine now.

 7        Q.   Can you hear me?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, we have just seen two orders and two memos of

10     yours in response to those orders from the Ministry of the Socialist

11     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Were you familiar at the time with the

12     fact that the MUP of Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina had been

13     established, headed by minister Mr. Mico Stanisic?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Even though the MUP of Republika Srpska was in existence, did you

16     comply with the orders and commands from the MUP of the

17     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   Would you please explain to us how did you perceive this?  On the

20     one hand there was the MUP of Republika Srpska headed by Mico Stanisic,

21     and on the other hand there was the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina headed by Alija Delimustafic.

23        A.   I understood this to be the case back at the meeting in

24     Banja Luka in February.  I saw this more as a form of pressure on the

25     ministry on the -- of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, a

Page 19546

 1     pressure to have equal attitude, to treaty equally all centres and all

 2     police stations and a pressure to have them start functioning in

 3     accordance with the laws.

 4             In parallel with that, the conditions were being created, in the

 5     areas where that was possible, to establish to the extent possible if

 6     necessary within the framework of the Serbian MUP conditions for lawful

 7     work and conditions necessary for ensuring that the police crime service

 8     would work as provided by law, to ensure law and order, personal safety,

 9     property, security, and everything else.

10        Q.   Did you know at the time that the MUP of the Socialist Republic

11     of Bosnia-Herzegovina would maintain certain responsibilities,

12     authorities?  And if you know, do you remember which ones those were?

13        A.   Yes, certain responsibilities or powers remained within the

14     purview of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I

15     can't list them here now, but the entire infrastructure was set up in

16     such a way that this was how it was supposed to work.  But, as you were

17     able to see, the system was being increasingly undermined, and instead of

18     introducing order and hierarchy, what reigned was a wilfulness, anarchy,

19     and the services, when it came to organising them and putting them in

20     place, were differentiated out in the field.  I observed that large

21     amounts of materiel and technical equipment were distributed to various

22     other centres, whereas the Doboj centre didn't receive any of the

23     Hecklers, of the weapons or radio sets that it was promised.  It simply

24     never reached us.

25        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, did you know at the time what sort of principal

Page 19547

 1     was used to finance the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the MUP of the Serbian MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 3        A.   Well, the system was centralised.  What I mean by that is that

 4     the finances were dispensed from within the seat of the ministry of the

 5     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   You mean the ministry of the Socialist Republic of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina seated in Sarajevo and headed by

 8     Minister Delimustafic?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what I said -- that's what I meant when I said that

10     it was centralised.

11        Q.   Did you know at the time what was the MUP where the records were

12     kept and where there was automatic data processing?

13        A.   In the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

14        Q.   Did you know whether the technical equipment that needed to be

15     provided for CSBs, including weapons -- or, rather, did you know within

16     whose competence this lay?

17        A.   Well, within the competence of the ministry in Sarajevo.  And I

18     believe I said so already that they were the ones in charge of

19     distributing these assets.

20        Q.   Did you know who had within their competence out of these two

21     MUPs the education of or training of staff members?

22        A.   It was the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo in Vrace that

23     had such a facility, and I think that courses were being held for a

24     number of candidates, civilians who were supposed to undergo training in

25     this way and become policemen.

Page 19548

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue, Your Honours?  I was informed that

 2     the LiveNote is not working again.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Let's see how far we get.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I take my headphones off?

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, not only the LiveNote's not working

 6     but before that the -- it was impossible to highlight issues as well.

 7     Yeah, I see the Defence are nodding.  That's the second day running.  Can

 8     we try and fix LiveNote so that it works.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we --

10             MS. KORNER:  I mean, certainly we can carry on, because I think

11     the court one's working.  It's just on the computers again.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Zecevic.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, let's look at 1D257 MFI'd, which

15     is tab 36.  The dispatch -- let's wait a moment.

16             The dispatch is dated the 8th of April, 1992, and as we can see

17     it refers back to the dispatch of the ministry for National Defence of

18     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina of the 5th of April, 1992.

19     And this particular dispatch was delivered to the chiefs of CSBs, SJBs,

20     and the secretary, and was signed by O. Jasarevic.  Can you tell us who

21     O. Jasarevic was and if you received the dispatch and what it related to?

22        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with the dispatch.  It has arrived from --

23        Q.   A moment, please.  We've lost the document.  We don't have it on

24     our monitors.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's document 1D257 MFI'd.  Tab 36.  [In English]

Page 19549

 1     This used to be a characteristic for Monday morning; now it's happening

 2     on Wednesday as well.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Go ahead, Mr. Bjelosevic, with your answer.  We

 4     have the document.

 5        A.   I am familiar with this dispatch.  It comes from the department

 6     for defence preparations, and Mr. Jasarevic worked for that department in

 7     the head office of the MUP in Sarajevo.  This is yet another flagrant

 8     example of the violation of basic laws and regulations governing

 9     Internal Affairs.  It is inconceivable and incompatible with all the

10     rules and regulations in force at the time that Territorial Defence units

11     should be subordinated to police stations.  That was contrary to all the

12     republican and federal regulations.  What is even more glaring than that

13     is that volunteers are admitted into the police force under the

14     regulations in force at the time.

15             For a person to become a MUP member, that person had to be

16     thoroughly vetted, especially if one was to be appointed as a policeman

17     or inspector.  So background checks would be done, the person had to have

18     done the compulsory military service, had to have done some of the

19     courses in policing.  And as for the reserve force, they were included on

20     a regular basis and continuous basis in various one-, or two-day courses

21     in order to prepare them for police work.  Apparently within the MUP

22     individuals are being gathered, both volunteers and TO members and

23     certain para-groups, although they're not explicitly stated here but

24     we've had examples of it in the past.  This is basically an army in the

25     making which was supposed to obviously engage in armed combat.

Page 19550

 1             And I do recollect that shortly after this, after volunteers

 2     started appearing at various stations and TO members in Derventa, and it

 3     may have been the case in some other police stations, but we did receive

 4     reports about Derventa, some day these individuals stepped into the

 5     station, occupied it, it was a public security station, and forced

 6     active-duty policemen to leave the premises.  And it was on that occasion

 7     that various application forms for passports, driving licences, vehicle

 8     registration papers were lost.  Apparently some of the records were also

 9     broken in two and some files taken away.  In other words, it was a total

10     collapse of the system.

11        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, if I understood you correctly, you received this

12     document in April of 1992.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And it's a document that Mr. Jasarevic sent out from the head

15     office of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

16     Sarajevo; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd kindly ask that

19     this document lose the marked-for-identification status.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We admit it as a full exhibit.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's 1D257.

22        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, please look at document 188D1, tab 37.  It's a

23     dispatch dated the 10th of April, 1992.  It's a typewritten signature,

24     Chief of Centre Andrija Bjelosevic, there's a signature and some sort of

25     reference mark or designation on the second page.  The document was sent

Page 19551

 1     to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

 2     reference being your dispatch of the 8th of April, 1992, in other words,

 3     the document we've just looked at a moment ago.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2.

 5        Q.   And your comments on whose the signature would be.  And if you

 6     can give us your comments in general.

 7        A.   This is a response to the dispatch we looked at previously which

 8     was sent by the MUP.  As you can see, information was provided here about

 9     the number of staff members present there and if all the posts were

10     taken --

11        Q.   Can you please comment on the signature, and then we'll go back

12     to the contents.

13        A.   I think it's the signature of the chief of the police department

14     or Babic's who was in charge of defence preparations.  At any rate, one

15     of the two from the police department.

16        Q.   The police department of the security services centre of Doboj?

17        A.   Exactly.  Vojo Blagojevic and Krsto Babic had similar signatures,

18     so I'm not sure which of the two signed the document.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1.

20        Q.   And can we have your comments on the document.

21        A.   As I said, this was a response listing the number of staff and

22     the equipment that was required in order for all of this to function

23     properly.  You see the number of pistols required, pistol ammunition,

24     face masks, flak jackets, vehicle with police equipment, and you can tell

25     by looking at the document that the CSB Doboj and its stations were not

Page 19552

 1     receiving regular supplies.  They were selective.  We were told to start

 2     applying the working defence plan and to engage personnel on this without

 3     having the requisite equipment.  And on page 2 we have the list of

 4     individuals who were in charge with daily reporting, et cetera.

 5        Q.   Sir, was this dispatch sent to the MUP of the Socialist Republic

 6     of Bosnia-Herzegovina on your order or with your consent?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  In the course of the morning we agreed that a response

 8     should be sent, and it was sent to the MUP in Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Sir, a moment ago, in your comments about the previous order that

10     you had received from Osman Jasarevic, you said that this -- that was a

11     flagrant example of unlawfulness.  You mentioned the re-subordination of

12     TO units and volunteers.  Tell us, what was your reaction to that part of

13     the order which, as you put it, was glaring in its unlawfulness?

14        A.   In Doboj we did not even accept TO units on our strength.  We did

15     not re-subordinate them to us, and we never admitted any volunteers

16     either.  We remained working with active-duty policemen, and we also

17     mobilised the reserve force which had existed from before, people who had

18     been registered before, who had been trained, men who had been on our war

19     assignment list.

20        Q.   Was that in keeping with the valid laws and regulations?

21        A.   Yes.  That was in keeping with the laws and regulations that were

22     in force.

23        Q.   Is my understanding correct - if it is not, please

24     correct me - that you effectively carried out the order that we have just

25     seen only partially?

Page 19553

 1        A.   Yes, I carried it out only partially.  And we did not carry the

 2     order out in the part which it violated the laws.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

 4     like to tender this document into evidence.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I've just got a query, which is:  The English

 6     translation says this is sent to the Serbian republic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, the -- I see, and I'm grateful for your

 8     comment, but it says SRBiH, which is the Socialist Republic of BH, and

 9     the connection is clear because if you look at 1D257 you can see that

10     this is a response to that order and it bears the very same numbers.

11             MS. KORNER:  I'm not -- I've heard the evidence and I'm not

12     saying I dispute it; I'm merely pointing out that the translation you

13     obtained is apparently wrong and could mislead.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, this is not the translation we obtained.

15     This is the translation from the CLSS, and we will resend it for revision

16     to the CLSS.  It appears to be a mistake.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HALL:  So we should mark it for identification, pending the

19     correct translation from CLSS.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D459 marked for identification,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Shouldn't that be 60?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  60.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  So the document 188D1 is Exhibit 1D460 --

Page 19554

 1             THE REGISTRAR: -- marked for identification.  Thank you.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, please look at 307D1, tab 42.  I

 4     believe that in your previous answer, or one of your previous answers,

 5     you spoke about a situation in Derventa.  This here is a telegram sent by

 6     the SJB Derventa on the 10th of April, 1992.  We can see that it bears a

 7     number.  And it was sent and delivered to the Ministry of the Interior of

 8     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well to the CSB Doboj.

 9     The typed-up signature is that of Station Chief Ivan Duspara.  I would

10     like to invite you to comment upon this document and give us some

11     explanations.

12        A.   Yes, I remember this dispatch that came from the Derventa Public

13     Security Station and, yes, it was indeed signed by

14     Station Chief Ivan Duspara.  In this dispatch he asks whether official

15     identity cards should be given to the reserve police forces, because, as

16     he says, there are blank forms for official identity cards at the SJBs

17     and that the number matched the number of police members.  But the forms

18     were blank.  They didn't contain any data and they didn't contain any

19     photos.  So he is inquiring whether he should complete those IDs.

20             However, if I understood you properly when you tried to establish

21     a link between some of my answers, I told you that the public security

22     station was occupied.  And at that moment when it was occupied, a lot of

23     blank forms were taken away, including blank forms for passports, driving

24     licence, and things like that.

25        Q.   We will come to that document as well.  Sir, would you please

Page 19555

 1     comment on where it says "MUP SRBiH 01/4."  Which MUP was that?

 2        A.   That was the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3     It was sent to us.  However, we did not have any decision powers with

 4     regard to such issues.  All that was within the purview of the ministry,

 5     and the ministry in question is the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia

 6     and Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   What you are saying is that SRBiH means what?

 8        A.   It means the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

11     like to tender the document into evidence.

12             JUDGE HALL:  May I ask why, Mr. Zecevic?

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours ... Your Honours, there has

14     been -- there has been evidence about misuse of this -- of these official

15     ID cards during the Office of the Prosecutor's case.  And in continuing

16     my direct examination of this witness, we will come do that, so I was

17     just out of caution offering these documents so as to explain how it

18     came -- how it became possible that the people were able to use the

19     official MUP IDs without any authorisation, because they were actually

20     stolen.  That is the reason why I offered this document.  And I'm sure it

21     will become very clear to Your Honours once we come to that point.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Derventa is not on the indictment, Mr. Zecevic.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is true, Your Honours, but the official IDs

25     were not issued with the municipality on it.  It's just the official IDs

Page 19556

 1     of the MUP of SRBiH which existed throughout the territory.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But this is a question by the Derventa chief

 3     whether he should or shouldn't.  So what does that -- what turns on it?

 4     The answer eventually, an answer that would apply to the entire territory

 5     perhaps, but I don't know where you will provide the answer --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- to this dispatch.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, and I appreciate.  I'm sorry.  I got

 9     a bit confused and I'm really sorry.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             By the way, I have a question.  Can you put your headphones on.

12             Mr. Bjelosevic, in this and other dispatches, MUP SRBiH means

13     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but at that time the

14     Serb republic was also proclaimed; right?  You don't hear me?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

16     interpretation.  I don't know what you are saying.  I'm sorry.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm receiving sound but I'm not

19     receiving any interpretation.  I can hear the sound.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would this be better?  Can you get something now?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again I can't hear the interpreter.

22     I'm not receiving any interpretation.  Is the interpreter speaking at

23     all?

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, I didn't have my microphone on, perhaps

25     that's the reason.  Do you get an interpretation now?

Page 19557

 1             THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, I'm not receiving the

 4     interpretation.  I can only hear --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  It's not my microphone.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I'm receiving the

 7     interpretation.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So my question, Mr. Bjelosevic, is this:  In this

 9     dispatch, SRBiH, you explained, means Socialist Republic of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  But at that time the Serb Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina was proclaimed as well and so existed; is that right?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So if you would send a dispatch to the MUP of

14     that republic, to Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, how would

15     that -- how would we see that in the dispatch?  It wouldn't be SRBiH, it

16     would be what?  Just to enable us to understand.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The common abbreviation was, and it

18     still is, the SRBiH, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This

19     was a familiar form.  Later on when we address the MUP of the

20     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, then there would be no breaks

21     between letters or, rather, we would use the whole words, not the actual

22     abbreviation.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I?  Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, could you now look at tab 44,

Page 19558

 1     document number 189D1.  This is what I confused with the previous

 2     document.  I may be a bit tired and I apologise to everybody.  The

 3     document is dated the 16th of April, 1992.  It was sent to the MUP of the

 4     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the operations duty -- or, rather, by

 5     the operations duty.  Can you tell us whether this was sent from the

 6     CSB Doboj or not?  If not, where was it sent from?  And also, are you

 7     familiar with this incident in Derventa?

 8        A.   Yes, this is what I was talking about just a while ago.  The

 9     operations duty officer received this information from the deputy

10     commander of the Derventa Public Security Station, and you can see from

11     the contents of this dispatch that this was a proper occupation of the

12     station, as he says it himself.  The SJB was occupied by armed

13     individuals who introduced themselves as territorial units and the

14     defence of the city, and, as you can see here, all the employees were

15     told to leave the building, and the occupiers occupied the building,

16     ransacked the premises, and took whatever they found of some interest.

17             I believe that this signature is of the Operations Duty Officer

18     Mirza Lisinovic.  If you allow me, since I've mentioned his name, I would

19     like to say that he was the commander of the public security station in

20     Doboj.  He was a good commander, a very good commander.  Unfortunately in

21     1991 he was removed from that position at the request of the SDA party.

22     According to them, he was not good enough to stay.  But I must say that

23     he was a good professional and that's why subsequently I wanted him to be

24     assigned to the operations duty.  And I believe that this is his

25     signature.

Page 19559

 1             I'm fully familiar with the incident.  It is actually a notorious

 2     fact that those things happened.  Everybody knows that.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

 4     like to tender this document into evidence.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think, in the light of Your Honour's

 6     comments been Derventa, I would like to raise this whole issue before the

 7     end of today.  Given that other documents have gone in, I have no

 8     objection, but I think this really needs to be clarified.  So if

 9     Mr. Zecevic would be kind enough to give me five minutes before we'd

10     rise.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE HALL:  On the face of it, Mr. Zecevic, this is the same

13     question we asked a while ago as to why.  We're dealing with Derventa,

14     we're dealing with an incident the witness says it was a notorious fact.

15     To the extent that it is at all relevant, we have the viva voce evidence.

16     Why do we need this?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, we need this document.  This is

18     the last document from this part, and this is the document of the

19     16th of April which the CSB Doboj sends to the MUP of Republic of BiH in

20     Sarajevo; therefore, this is to show the continuous reporting of the CSB

21     of Doboj to Sarajevo MUP despite the fact that the CSB Doboj was a part

22     of MUP of Republika Srpska.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HALL:  But even so, Mr. Zecevic, if I understand the basis

25     for your seeking to tender this correctly, the CSB Doboj is sending --

Page 19560

 1     continuously sending information to Sarajevo, that among that stream of

 2     information are items which do not relate to any of the municipalities in

 3     the indictment.  How does it assist in terms of the issues with which the

 4     Chamber is concerned?  Because inevitably there would be additional

 5     material that would have gone forth in the ordinary course of dispatches.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, believe me, I would love to be able

 7     to produce the documents which are from that period that exist and are

 8     only related to the municipalities which are in the indictment.  Of

 9     course I wouldn't even think about using the documents which relate to

10     the other municipalities.  However, unfortunately, this is the only

11     document that we have to substantiate or to confirm our theory of the

12     case, which is a contested issue in this case.  And that is why for this

13     sole purpose are we offering that document.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE HALL:  Well, as this is the last document, we'll admit it,

16     Mr. -- have it marked and admitted, Mr. Zecevic.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D461 [Realtime translation read in

19     error "161"], Your Honours.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe it should be 461, I'm sorry.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, I thought I said 4.  But to correct

22     the transcript, it's 461.  Thank you.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, we came to mid or late April.  Could you explain

25     to us what the situation was like in the territory of the Doboj CSB?

Page 19561

 1     What stations were you in contact with, the SJB stations, in relation to

 2     which stations the hierarchy functioned and the standard procedures of

 3     MUP?  Could you please describe that to us.

 4        A.   In mid-April the war had been going on for quite a while in that

 5     area.  Let me remind you just of Bosanski and Slavonski Brod, which is

 6     where it all began.  You saw that the first armed conflict or incident

 7     was in September of 1991; and then the second was on the 3rd and

 8     4th of March, 1992; and then the fighting in that area started

 9     escalating, literally the front line was established.  In the night

10     between the 26th and 27 of March, in case you don't already know, let me

11     tell you that there was a terrible attack and residents of the village of

12     Sijekovac were violently killed.  The members of a group entered that

13     village and --

14        Q.   Sir, I know that all these events are clear to you.  You are very

15     well familiar.  But when you say "these" and "civilians," you have to

16     specify to us which paramilitary units you have in mind and which

17     civilians.

18        A.   Let me be more specific.  The paramilitary formations that were

19     in Bosanski Brod and who had come over from Croatia, those were the HOS

20     units and the units that belonged to HDZ, as well as units under the

21     command Cjusevic [phoen], Nijaz, nicknamed Medo.  They comprised members

22     of Muslim ethnicity.

23             By your leave, Your Honours, I would like to elaborate on this

24     event and on the actions of the members of the MUP of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina in response to that.  Whenever there was an event of this

Page 19562

 1     nature, I think that it was necessary that the highest level organs,

 2     Presidency, ministries, get involved in dealing with this because this

 3     was, after all, an act of aggression on the part of the

 4     Republic of Croatia, that had already been internationally recognised.

 5     This was their act of aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6             After this event in Sijekovac that I have just described to you,

 7     members of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina came to visit.

 8     Mrs. Biljana Plavsic, Mr. Franjo Boras, and Mr. Fikret Abdic, they went

 9     to Bosanski Brod, then they returned, and then a meeting was held with

10     them in the barracks in Derventa.  I attended that meeting.  Mr. Boras

11     remained quiet the whole time; he never said anything.  I guess he was

12     shocked by what he had seen.  However, as a member of the Presidency, I

13     believe that he should have been able to verbalise what had happened in

14     Sijekovac and Bosanski Brod.  The other two members of the Presidency

15     spoke more about how they managed to travel to Sijekovac and back than

16     they spent talking about the event itself.

17             I took the liberty at the time to take the floor, telling them

18     that what had happened down there has a proper name and a definition,

19     that it was an act of aggression of Croatia against Bosnia-Herzegovina,

20     and that this aggression had assistance of local paramilitary units.

21             UTel, the TV channel, called Yugoslav Television, broadcast some

22     footage of what had happened there, and it was a terrible sight.  I told

23     the members of the Presidency that it was their job to speak about that

24     and not my job.  I told them, and I think it to this day, that the state

25     should have reacted in a much more decisive and forceful manner regarding

Page 19563

 1     this.  And together with the JNA they should have done everything to

 2     stabilise the region to prevent any further blood-shed, to prevent

 3     destruction and deportation and everything that happened after that.  The

 4     members of the Presidency remained there for a while and then left.

 5             After that, as April began, the war started escalating.  Soon

 6     thereafter, Derventa was occupied as well, except for the JNA barracks

 7     and a number of villages which were predominantly populated by Serbs.

 8             Within a short period of time, mass arrests and mass persecution

 9     of populations started.  First of all from the town, and later on from

10     such villages as Lijesce, Brusnica, Klakar.  And later on it spilled into

11     the rest of the territory of Derventa municipality.  Klakar, bordering

12     with Grk; Gornji Visnjik, Donji Visnjik, Lusani.

13             Sometime in mid-April there was an armed attack on the Kostres

14     and Barica villages.  Those are two linked villages.  Ko stres is in

15     Derventa municipality and Barica is in Bosanski Brod municipality.  Both

16     villages were predominantly populated by Serbs.  People were literally

17     expelled from their homes.  Eleven residents who did not manage to flee

18     remained there.  Their remains were found later, some in the fall of 1992

19     and some not until 1993.

20             Following this event --

21             JUDGE HALL:  I don't wish to interrupt the witness unnecessarily,

22     but I remember that Ms. Korner had asked to deal with a matter before we

23     rose.  We only have about two or three minutes.  I'm -- I don't know if

24     you have any idea, Mr. Zecevic, as to how much longer this narrative is

25     in which the witness is now engaged.

Page 19564

 1             MS. KORNER:  In any event, Your Honour, I object to this.  I

 2     seriously question the relevance of any of this other than to a tu quoque

 3     defence.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, my question was really very specific

 5     about the situation on the territory of CSB and the connection with SJBs

 6     on the territory.  That was my question.  Now, the witness, which I

 7     think, quite understandably, wants to -- wants to expand on that, so ...

 8     and I'm reluctant to stop the witness because -- despite the fact that I

 9     know that we are using up the time.  But I'm in the hands of

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  While on the one hand I can understand your

12     reluctance, of course I would respectfully remind you, Mr. Zecevic, that

13     he is your witness and it is your responsibility as counsel to guide him.

14     Witnesses always wish to volunteer information, but that's where

15     counsel's duty comes in.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, then we can adjourn for the day and have the

17     time for Ms. Korner to discuss the issue that he she wanted to raise.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

20             Mr. Bjelosevic, we will take the adjournment for today.  Your

21     testimony will continue tomorrow.  You'll be escorted from the courtroom

22     now because we aren't going to rise immediately.  Thank you, sir.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Could you do it in two minutes, Ms. Korner.

25             MS. KORNER:  A little longer, I'd feel.  I'd ask Your Honours to

Page 19565

 1     sit on.

 2             Your Honours, I'm very concerned, and that last answer that we've

 3     just had typifies my concern, that for the last two days approximately

 4     15 per cent of the evidence adduced from this witness has related to

 5     issues or matters which are the subject of this indictment.  Most of the

 6     evidence that this witness has given is in no shape or form reflected in

 7     the 65 ter summary that we received from the Defence.  We were wholly

 8     unaware that we were going to be dealing with the events in

 9     Slavonski Brod, Bosanski Brod, and now Derventa.

10             As I've indicated twice now, it means that we will have to deal

11     with that even though no issues have been raised about this during the

12     Prosecution case and Your Honours are wholly unaware of any of these

13     events, as indeed, for the moment, we are going to have to do some

14     research.

15             My concern is simply this:  That in the light of Your Honours

16     saying that Derventa was out of the indictment and preventing the

17     document going in but allowing all the evidence to be led on this

18     witness's version of events in Bosanski Brod and Slavonski Brod, we do

19     propose as far as we are able to do some research and to deal with that.

20     But, Your Honours, if Your Honours are going to prevent us from

21     cross-examining on this, and Mr. Zecevic allowed this answer, which, as

22     he rightly points out, is not the answer to the question he asked at all,

23     but allowed the witness to give it, and clearly it is the intention that

24     evidence should be adduced which is not relevant to this indictment.

25             And so, Your Honours, what I want to know is this:  Are

Page 19566

 1     Your Honours going to prevent me from cross-examining on the matters that

 2     have been raised?  Because if you are, it will save us an awful lot of

 3     research.

 4             But at the moment, we say -- we say, The Defence have chosen to

 5     say this course and so we're entitled to cross-examine.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Without attempting to answer your question directly,

 7     Ms. Korner, I would have thought that the overriding rule of relevance

 8     would be what governs here, although I appreciate your difficulty, as

 9     counsel for one side in adversarial proceedings, of having to deal with

10     evidence which having been led by the side opposite not knowing what view

11     the Chamber would take of it, but that apart, I would -- at this point I

12     can say no more than that counsel on both sides should remember the

13     relevance which is governed by the indictment.

14             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I mean, that's -- that is

15     the exact point.  In which case, can I say this:  I've objected twice,

16     not in the actual sense, but Your Honours have allowed it to continue.  I

17     can't go on getting up and objecting.  This is the third time I object.

18     This last answer is wholly and utterly objectionable because it's got

19     nothing do with the question that was asked.  And it's a wholly, and not

20     surprisingly, partial view of what happened.  But, Your Honours, can I

21     formally now make the objection:  We say all this evidence that you've

22     heard should be -- if we were in the States, I'd say struck from the

23     record, but we don't have that, but should not be taken into account at

24     all because it's almost impossible to counter without spending a great

25     deal of time and entering into subsidiary issues on municipalities that

Page 19567

 1     have never formed part of this indictment.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I would only say at this point that since we

 3     can't unring the bell, that the evidence which has been led, although we

 4     certainly didn't anticipate what was coming, is something to which we

 5     will have no regard.  And with that we take the adjournment until

 6     tomorrow morning.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day

 9                           of April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.