Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19952

 1                           Thursday, 21 April, 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

11     Alexis Demirdjian, Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence.

14             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

15     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

16             JUDGE HALL:  We are given to understand that there are some

17     matter to be raised before the witness takes the stand again.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, a very quick submission by

19     Stanisic Defence.  We find with concern that the disclosure violations

20     are becoming a real problem in this case.  Your Honours should understand

21     first and foremost that the OTP investigator seized almost all documents

22     for Bosnia-Herzegovina in period between 1996 and 2004.  Some of them

23     were copied and returned to archives, but obviously a significant number

24     has not and is in the OTP vaults or database.  We are not allowed access

25     to these documentation or have possibility to search it.  This violation

Page 19953

 1     that I'm talking about it the third one since the start of the Defence

 2     case 8 days ago.  In all three cases that we -- of violation we brought

 3     up to Your Honours attention, the OTP acknowledged the failure to

 4     disclose documents in accordance with Rule 68 and claimed that its due to

 5     black holes or search engines failures or alike.

 6             The Doboj disclosure seems especially problematic.  Yesterday we

 7     were assured by the Office of the Prosecutor that their repeated searches

 8     didn't produce anything in relation to the document we were discussing in

 9     court, only to disclose to us one of the -- one of the -- the most

10     important documents from that file, after two and a half hours, after we

11     finished the examination-in-chief of the current witness.  What is even

12     more worrisome, in our opinion, is the fact that the document disclosed

13     yesterday is actually the document signed by the accused Stanisic.

14     According to ERN number we think that the document comes from the seizure

15     of MUP RS archives, but we can only speculate as we don't have the

16     precise information.  It is very unlikely, I must say, that OTP given the

17     time that the accused Stanisic was indicted in 2005 did not search the

18     vast documentation in their possession with the key word being name of

19     the accused and especially if it comes from the MUP RS seizure.

20             For that reason, we cannot accept the black hole or search engine

21     failure explanation.  The Defence is preparing a motion to illustrate on

22     how many times we requested the disclosure of relevant material sometimes

23     specific and sometimes less specific, but in any case specific enough to

24     assume on information received from the OTP that such document does not

25     exist.  Now, after start of the Defence case we see that it in fact does

Page 19954

 1     exist.  So what does that speak of fairness in this case?  To quote

 2     Stakic Appeals Chamber judgement of 22nd March 2006, paragraph 188:

 3             "The disclosure of material pursuant to Rule 68 is fundamental to

 4     the fairness of the proceedings before the Tribunal.  The consideration

 5     of fairness must be the overriding factor in any determination whether

 6     the governing rule has been breached."

 7             Now, Your Honours, we come to the relief and remedy.  I'm really

 8     honestly wondering is there a relief for the Defence at all.  Namely, we

 9     asked a number of times and keep asking for the material to be disclosed.

10     At the same time, Office of the Prosecutor has a strict obligation under

11     the rules to disclose to us the material and yet in only eight days since

12     the start of the Defence case we have three serious violations of

13     disclosure.

14             I'm also extremely concerned and I wonder if in this situation

15     the Defence can continue presentation of the Defence case as the

16     documents keep popping up.  Thank you very much.  That was my submission.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

18             Mr. Krgovic do you have anything to say before I call on

19     Ms. Korner?

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  We support the

21     motion by Mr. Stanisic and in order to avoid similar situations in the

22     future during our Defence case, we are about to submit a proposal with

23     the specific request to the Prosecutor detailing what we want them to

24     disclose to us.  We still have some documents that we haven't received.

25     Our Defence case is going to begin a little later, but we are now working

Page 19955

 1     on a special request for the Prosecutor in which we are going to specify

 2     the documents we want to see and also the collections of documents to

 3     which they belong.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  If I may, Ms. Korner.

 5             Mr. Zecevic, the -- Mr. Krgovic used the word "motion" and then

 6     later on he explained what he proposes to do in terms of the specific

 7     relief that he would formulate.  What I'm not clear on and what may be

 8     helpful before Ms. Korner responds is whether you are -- whether you

 9     intend to yourself formulate a specific relief or whether we are to

10     divine from the observations that you made some relief in that.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I was trying to put the Chamber

12     on notice that we are filing a motion.  At this moment I'm -- I honestly

13     don't know what the relief would be acceptable for us and that is why I

14     brought it up as I did without specifically asking for a specific relief.

15     But we will do that in our motion today.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, I must have missed that.  Thank you.

17             Yes, Ms. Korner.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, first of all, can I deal with the

19     assertion that was made that OTP investigators seized almost all

20     documents for Bosnia-Herzegovina in the period pre-1996 and 2004.  As

21     Your Honours have seen through even this one witness that is simply not

22     the case, and it's a matter I propose to deal with at some stage with the

23     witness.

24             Second, yesterday the matter arose of this disciplinary letter

25     involving a man named Solaja and there was a discussion about what this

Page 19956

 1     was all about.  And we did a quick check to see if with that document we

 2     had the file.  We do not have the file.  However, we searched on the name

 3     of the police officer who was disciplined later yesterday or during the

 4     course of indeed while the trial was still going on and what came up, and

 5     I think we better have a look at it on the screen, was this document, and

 6     you need to go, I think, to the second page.  It's actually -- we haven't

 7     had it translated yet, though we're hoping to get it translated within

 8     the next couple of weeks, but from having had a B/C/S reader look at it,

 9     it's the decision of Mico Stanisic in respect of the disciplinary appeal.

10     And a rough translation, a rough estimate of what it says is that it's

11     Mico Stanisic's 21st of December, 1992 decision dismissing Solaja's

12     appeal listing as the offences:  Taking a golf car, taking IDs from a

13     Serb family, and trying to transfer three women with the last name

14     Mandic - and the last names are given - and one man with the last name

15     Maric, so that's Mandic and Maric, to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

16     using forged ID cards.  So it appears to be people smuggling as well as

17     stealing cards from a Serb family.

18             The query that of course the same thing Mr. Zecevic raised I

19     raised why wouldn't this turn up on the search that we clearly did on the

20     name Mico Stanisic, and the reason I am told is as follows:  When these

21     documents are seized and scanned it's done by OCR, I think that's optical

22     character recognition or that's how you find them.  If, as is in this

23     document, you've got the signature like that written over the typed

24     signature it will not come up, whatever search terms you put in, and the

25     only way of pulling such a document out is apparently by doing ...

Page 19957

 1     Sorry.  I've now been given last moment information, Your Honours.

 2     Anyhow, that -- that's, but having said that, I've now been told --

 3     right.  In fact, somewhat to my surprise having launched into this

 4     explanation I'm told that it was disclosed to Defence on the 1st of

 5     April, 2010 in batch -- we don't know what the batch number is.  It's on

 6     a CD given to the Defence on the 1st of April, 2010.  And it's also on

 7     EDS.

 8             It was in fact -- right.  Okay.  Apparently on a Stanisic

 9     specific EDS, but I'm not saying that -- as I've said before, I agree

10     that where we have documents that should be disclosed under any rule,

11     we'll disclose them and we don't rely on EDS but it is there, but in fact

12     somewhat to my surprise that was disclosed.  But in any event Your

13     Honour, that is one of the problems.

14             Now, we didn't realise it was disclosed because it came up, we

15     got at it by doing a search on, as I say, on the perpetrator rather than

16     on Stanisic.  And the reason it was disclosed then is in fact this

17     document comes from the Banja Luka MUP photocopied, no originals taken,

18     in April of 2009.  Yeah.  So it is a recent -- we've been doing a number

19     of recent revisiting of various archives, I say recent, I mean a couple

20     of years ago, and that was one of them.  So it's a very recently obtained

21     document, the original remains with the Banja Luka MUP archives, and as I

22     say, after only having been told we haven't disclosed it yesterday so

23     that's why we've disclosed it, we have in fact disclosed it.  However, it

24     is still -- I'm afraid it is still a problem when you are searching on

25     these OCRs, and I'm afraid it is something that's going to keep on

Page 19958

 1     recurring because particularly if documents are badly scanned then a

 2     search engine will miss it.

 3             The earlier ones referred to by Mr. Zecevic, I accept -- I

 4     explained why we hadn't disclosed the earlier Bjelosevic documents

 5     because they turned up in a different section which we should have

 6     checked, that was our fault, but equally as is absolutely plain,

 7     Mr. Zecevic obviously had these documents himself, most of them were

 8     referred to in the interview by Mr. Bjelosevic and we weren't asked for

 9     them but I dealt with that, so I'm just dealing with this document at the

10     moment.

11             Your Honour, additionally we've had this morning a further

12     request, allegedly under Rule 66(B) from the Defence which we will deal

13     with separately.  I can say straightaway it is unlikely that we will

14     comply with all the requests because effectively it's the matter I raised

15     yesterday -- not yesterday, whenever we had the legal argument last week;

16     namely, that the Defence effectively are now asking for sight of all

17     documents that we propose to use in cross-examination and we will be

18     resisting that.

19             So Your Honours, I hope that's the explanation I can give.  As it

20     turns out I don't blame Mr. Zecevic because we said we were disclosing it

21     because we didn't do a proper check, but in fact we are not in any

22     disclosure violation over this document.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So in sum where we are is that in terms

24     of the principles there is and indeed there could be no division between

25     counsel on opposite sides as to what the principles involved are.  The

Page 19959

 1     practical operations would, as Ms. Korner has indicated, have to be

 2     determined on a case by-case basis and no doubt there will be continue to

 3     be complaints and the Chamber will have to rule on the particular motions

 4     and/or complaints as they arise, and depending on what the particular

 5     circumstances are, the Chamber would, of course, determine and apply the

 6     relevant sanctions.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I just say something because it's

 8     becoming a habit and not just in this Trial Chamber but in others for

 9     sanctions to be demanded against the Prosecution for what are said to be

10     violations of the rules.  I [indiscernible] recognised, A, the difficulty

11     that Your Honours have pointed out, and also that we don't sit on

12     documents however much we know it's going to cause problems for us.  If

13     we find documents, we disclose them.  And that's the reality and I hope

14     that will be accepted.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, if there is nothing else.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, may I just -- totally different subject

17     but it goes back to proof of death matters that we discussed, I think, at

18     the first day.  Your Honours, we just received a further two to three

19     hundred death certificates for people listed on our indictment and

20     exhumation documents.  They of course will have to be logged and which

21     will take a couple of weeks and then reviewed.  Then we've got to get

22     them disclosed and translations produced, so we decided rather than

23     filing separate motions we'll wait until we've got them all together and

24     everything has been disclosed to the Defence, so that's going to take a

25     few more weeks now I am afraid.

Page 19960

 1             JUDGE HALL:  This proof of death business strikes me, no pun

 2     intended, as being a Banquo's ghost.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes, exactly, continually reappearing, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 5             Would the usher please escort the witness back to the stand.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, good morning to you.  Again there

 9     were certain procedural matters which have delayed the continuation of

10     your cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic.  We'll be now in a position to

11     continue, and I would remind you you are still on your oath.

12             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

13                           WITNESS:  ANDRIJA BJELOSEVIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Bjelosevic.  Yesterday we were discussing the

17     meeting on the 11th of July in Belgrade and you answered my questions

18     about it.  During your interview, you mentioned two other meetings with

19     Mr. Zupljanin during the relevant period.  The first one was on the 1st

20     of July in Teslic.  You were wounded on that occasion, do you remember

21     that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You remember the action by Mr. Radulovic, you came there to see

24     what was going on and then, as you explained, you were attacked by

25     mistake and your ribs were wounded?

Page 19961

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then you invited Mr. Zupljanin to come with

 3     Colonel Stevilovic to explain what was going on and Mr. Zupljanin arrived

 4     at Teslic on your invitation?

 5        A.   Yes, I insisted that Mr. Zupljanin and Colonel Stevilovic arrive

 6     because it was a shock for me, I didn't know what was going on, and I

 7     wanted the relevant people to be there so that we could all see what was

 8     going on.

 9        Q.   And on that occasion, Mr. Radulovic said and Stojan Zupljanin

10     confirmed that that particular action was planned in Banja Luka and that

11     you were not informed about the plan for this action pursuant to an order

12     by Mr. Zupljanin?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   During that meeting it was established that some of the people

15     who were there had false ID purporting that they belonged to the Security

16     Services Centre in Doboj?

17        A.   Yes, it was about the supplemental IDs, that's how we used to

18     call them.  And then we found that those IDs were false.  That's also the

19     first time that I saw those IDs and some other documents such as the

20     order by Colonel Simic by which a group of military policemen was sent to

21     Teslic and other things as well.

22        Q.   One of the charges against the group Mice was the fact that they

23     falsely represented themselves to be authorised officials, so besides

24     various crimes against Muslims and Croats, they were also charged with

25     false representation?

Page 19962

 1        A.   Yes, I think that that's true.  I think I was informed at a

 2     meeting about the contents of their indictment.

 3        Q.   The following meeting that you mentioned was in Banja Luka on the

 4     9th of September.  Mr. Zupljanin, investigative judge, and the prosecutor

 5     from Teslic were present at the meeting?

 6        A.   Yes.  I insisted on this meeting.  As time went on, I found some

 7     new facts and that is why I requested this meeting.  The meeting was held

 8     on the 9th of September and was attended by those people that you

 9     mentioned.

10        Q.   You wanted a thorough investigation because you wanted to find

11     out who sent those people and how it came that you find yourself -- found

12     yourself in this embarrassing situation, you simply wanted to clear your

13     name, you wanted to prove to everybody that you had nothing to do with

14     this group and their arrival at Teslic?

15        A.   Yes, that's how it was.  In the meantime I had found out that in

16     early morning hours of the 1st of July, two young men were killed in that

17     action.  And I also wanted that to be mentioned at the meeting.  I

18     proposed that the investigation should be expanded and that it should

19     include the issue of responsibility for the death of those two young men.

20        Q.   You mentioned two people who were killed.  One from the Mice

21     group and another one --

22        A.   Yes, as far as I remember there was one from the Doboj group, his

23     name was Gostic, and the one from Teslic I think was called

24     Sjecanin [phoen] or something like that.  And I thought that this should

25     have been investigated.

Page 19963

 1        Q.   Just to clarify, it was two Serbs who were killed, one belonged

 2     to the group that was attacking the Mice and the other one from the Doboj

 3     group?

 4        A.   Yes, those two young men lost their lives in that conflict.

 5        Q.   I think that we heard that one of them was killed from close by

 6     and that he was trying to protect himself and there was a gun-shot wound

 7     on his hand?

 8        A.   Yes, that was another thing that persuaded me that I should do

 9     something about it.  During the on-site investigation, I think that there

10     was also an autopsy, but I think that when they were simply looking at

11     the dead body, they saw that the bullet went through the hand, that the

12     shot came from close by which means that the victim was trying to protect

13     his body from the killer.  That's what I meant.

14        Q.   At that time in July the relations between you and Mr. Zupljanin

15     were not very good precisely because of this event.  We could say that

16     they were not as good as they had been before?

17        A.   Exactly.  There were problems between the two of us.  Especially

18     when Mr. Zupljanin arrived with Colonel Stevilovic, I asked whether

19     Radulovic carried out this action with his approval and why I was not

20     informed about it.  I don't know that even today, and all right, I don't

21     really have to know that; however, as a man, as a chief of a centre, I

22     was offended that it all went the way it went and I received no

23     information about it, and it turned out I was quite naive.  I expected to

24     be informed about what happened, I arrived there, and in the end I almost

25     lost my life, so, yes, there were problems between the two of us.  I had

Page 19964

 1     significant reservations towards Mr. Zupljanin in that period.

 2        Q.   Did you think about the possibility that you were not informed

 3     because of the secrecy, because there was the danger of leaking of

 4     information?  Mr. Savic, the man in Doboj, was concerned that maybe there

 5     could be a leak of information and that could be the reason why you were

 6     not informed about it?

 7        A.   As time went by I changed my position about all this, but at that

 8     particular moment I was offended and frustrated, and later on when things

 9     fell into place, if I could say so, yes, I think that people had every

10     right to suspect me as well, but I think that later on everything was

11     clarified and that all suspicions were dispelled.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  These are all my

13     questions.  I have no further questions.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, as I said yesterday or the day before,

15     if I may, I'd like to ask some questions now.  I don't think they will

16     take beyond the adjournment at 10.25 and then adjourn the rest of

17     cross-examination until the witness returns.

18             JUDGE HALL:  So you will open your cross-examination now and

19     continue when the witness returns.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honour, you'll see the reason why I'm

21     asking these questions now, they are basically to do with documents.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  Please proceed.

23             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:

25        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, when the investigators met you in 2004 you were

Page 19965

 1     head of the analytical department in Doboj CSB; that's right, isn't it?

 2        A.   In the public security centre in Doboj, yes.

 3        Q.   Are you still in that position?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   In 2004 you had only been approached potentially as a witness for

 6     the Krajisnik case; is that right?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Well, I'm sorry, you were asked at the beginning of the 2004

 9     interview when you had your lawyer present, Mr. Simic -- forgive me.

10             Well, I should put it correctly.  What you were asked by the

11     investigator in 2004, Mr. Sebire was:

12             "In the past have you been contacted by any representative of a

13     Defence team working at the Tribunal for any case before the Tribunal?"

14             This is page 12 of the first interview.  And you said:

15             "No -- yes, actually there was a memo that came to the" typed up

16     as the PSC, but I assume that means the CSB, "referring to the

17     possibility that someone could be involved in the Defence of

18     Mr. Krajisnik."

19             Do you remember saying that?

20        A.   I don't remember that that was the contents of the conversation

21     and that a document was shown to me, but I do remember that

22     Goran Neskovic, I think, mentioned the Defence of Mr. Krajisnik.

23        Q.   In any event, I don't think it matters much, but that's -- you

24     weren't shown a document you were asked and that was the reply you gave,

25     and just to complete that part, you said you weren't in a position to

Page 19966

 1     assist in the Defence of Mr. Krajisnik.  Do you recall saying that?

 2        A.   I don't remember precisely how it went, but it is quite possible

 3     that something like that was discussed.

 4        Q.   All right.  When you were seen in 2009 you had already been asked

 5     by the Defence of Mr. Stanisic to be a witness; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Before I was invited to the interview in 2009, I had

 7     already been contacted by the Stanisic Defence.

 8        Q.   Yes.  That's all right, I'm going to ask you some further

 9     questions about that, but that's what I want to know.  Can you tell the

10     Court, please, when were you first contacted?

11        A.   I can't remember the first time but I remember that I gave some

12     sort of preliminary statement, maybe one year earlier, one year before I

13     spoke to you.

14        Q.   And did you give that preliminary statement to

15     Mr. Slobodan Cvijetic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Were you asked to sign that statement?

18        A.   I don't remember that really.

19        Q.   Do you have a copy of that statement with you?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Were you shown a copy of that statement at any stage?

22        A.   I think, yes.

23        Q.   All right.  So that's -- you saw Mr. Cvijetic, you made a

24     preliminary statement to him.  Who else did you see from the Defence team

25     of Mr. Stanisic?

Page 19967

 1        A.   When?  In what period?

 2        Q.   Between the first time you saw them which was you think in about

 3     2008, because you say it was about a year before you saw us, between then

 4     and now, how often have you met with members of the Stanisic Defence

 5     team?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I really don't remember.  I used to meet

 7     Mr. Zecevic.  Now, how many times he contacted me, I really don't

 8     remember that.  I didn't think about that.

 9        Q.   Did you meet him in Doboj?

10        A.   No, not in Doboj.

11        Q.   Where did you meet him?

12        A.   In Belgrade and Banja Luka, and here.

13        Q.   As you were employed presumably you made a note in your

14     appointments diary of your meetings with Mr. Zecevic?

15        A.   No, I made no note.

16        Q.   I'm not asking you about notes.  I'm asking you whether you

17     recorded either in your personal diary or your appointments diary which

18     you presumably keep as part of your employment of the number of meetings

19     that you had with Mr. Zecevic?

20        A.   No, no, I did not.

21        Q.   So you personally have no record of the number of meetings or

22     when they took place?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   When you met with Mr. -- was it always Mr. Zecevic or was it

25     Mr. Cvijetic or somebody else from the team that you met?

Page 19968

 1        A.   The first time, as I said, it was Mr. Cvijetic.  The second time,

 2     Mr. Zecevic.  And we also met in Banja Luka and both Mr. Zecevic and

 3     Mr. Cvijetic were there, and then also here before the beginning of the

 4     trial I met with both of them.

 5        Q.   Yes, I understand that, that you came here before you started to

 6     testify.  I'm concerned only with the earlier meetings.  At those

 7     meetings was Mr. Zecevic or Mr. Cvijetic or anybody else taking notes of

 8     what was being said?

 9        A.   We spoke about certain documents, and I think that they were

10     making some notes during the conversation.

11        Q.   Were you asked to sign any kind of statement or notes that had

12     been made of what you had said?

13        A.   I think that it was only once that I gave the preliminary

14     statement that I mentioned.  I think that I signed that statement.  As

15     for the notes, I don't remember.  I think we looked at some documents but

16     I'm not sure that I signed any of them.

17        Q.   All right.  Let me turn next to your meeting with Mr. Krgovic.

18     When was the first time that you met Mr. Krgovic, or anybody from the

19     Zupljanin Defence team?

20        A.   In Banja Luka I think in the spring, but we only met there, we

21     were introduced, we didn't have any conversation about the facts from the

22     Defence of Mr. Zupljanin.

23        Q.   Who introduced you to Mr. Krgovic?

24        A.   Mr. Zecevic.

25        Q.   And you had no conversation about any of the Zupljanin side of

Page 19969

 1     the case?

 2        A.   On that occasion, no, not during that meeting.  We were only

 3     introduced.  They told me that they represent Mr. Zupljanin and then they

 4     spent a short time there and went away.  We did not mention the facts

 5     related to the Defence of Mr. Zupljanin on that occasion.

 6        Q.   When did you mention the facts concerned with Mr. Zupljanin?

 7     When did you discuss the matters concerning Mr. Zupljanin with

 8     Mr. Krgovic or anybody else from the Defence team?

 9        A.   We had a brief conversation here, here in The Hague, before I

10     began testifying.

11        Q.   And did he explain to you then what he was going to ask you?

12        A.   Well, briefly speaking he gave some contours of the general

13     direction of the interview.

14        Q.   You see, until this morning, Mr. Bjelosevic, and in nearly two

15     weeks of giving evidence, this morning is the first time that you

16     mentioned the word "Mice" as a result of questions put to you by

17     Mr. Krgovic.  Was that a deliberate arrangement?

18        A.   I think that I did not mention that word this morning.

19        Q.   Well, indeed you are quite right it was actually brought up by

20     Mr. Krgovic.  But you have not mentioned the incident in the whole of

21     your two weeks of testimony that involved the Mice in which you were

22     involved as well.  Now, I want to know if there is a reason for that,

23     please?

24        A.   Nobody asked me about it.

25        Q.   Well, on two occasions, Mr. Bjelosevic, when you were being asked

Page 19970

 1     questions by Mr. Zecevic, you explained that at the beginning of July you

 2     had been in hospital, you did not mention how it was that you came to be

 3     in hospital.  Now, was that something that was arranged between you and

 4     Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Zecevic?

 5        A.   No, no, no.

 6        Q.   Was there any discussion between you and Mr. Zecevic about what,

 7     if anything, would be asked by him in relation to the Mice?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   So it's pure coincidence, Mr. Bjelosevic, that it's for the first

10     time this morning that the Judges would have realised from your testimony

11     that you had been involved in the incident which led to the arrest of the

12     Mice?  Is that what you are saying?

13        A.   Well, I don't know.  What do you mean when you say that I was

14     involved in it?  I stuck to the suggestion that I received at the

15     beginning, and that is that my answers should relate to the questions,

16     that my answers should be brief and clear.  Now this thing that you just

17     mentioned that I was involved in it, I think that I spoke about that.  I

18     think that we spoke about it, you and I, in 2009, and I think that that's

19     when I explained what happened, how it was that I -- how it came to be

20     that I was there when I can of course talk about it again.

21        Q.   In fact, Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm going to come back to substantive

22     matters on that when you return.  All I'm concerned about and all I'm

23     asking you about at the moment is whether there was any arrangement

24     between you, Mr. Zecevic, and Mr. Krgovic that the first questions that

25     would be asked about the Mice would come when Mr. Krgovic cross-examined

Page 19971

 1     you?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I really think that this question was asked and

 3     it's been answered for the third time.  I don't have a problem with the

 4     witness answering the question, but I think certain measures have to be

 5     applied.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, let me just ask one final question on this.

 7        Q.   When Mr. Krgovic spoke to you before you started testifying, did

 8     you discuss with him that he would ask you questions about the Mice?

 9        A.   No, not in this way.

10        Q.   What does that mean?  What does "not in this way" mean?

11        A.   That he would pose those questions and that I would answer those

12     questions and so on and so forth.  That's not how our conversation went.

13        Q.   Did he say to you that he would be the one to ask you questions

14     about the Mice?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So you didn't realise this morning that he was going to put

17     questions to you about the Mice, is that what you are telling the Court?

18        A.   Believe it or not, I had no idea about what questions Mr. Krgovic

19     was going to ask because when we met here in The Hague, he told me that

20     he would have several questions for me, that there would not be many

21     questions.

22        Q.   And that's it?

23        A.   That's it.

24        Q.   So all these questions that he asked you this morning and indeed

25     yesterday, you had no idea that he was going to ask you those questions;

Page 19972

 1     is that what you are saying?

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is nonsense.  All

 3     my questions and all his answers are also in his interview.  He gave

 4     identical answers to the questions that he was asked in his interview.

 5     Now, what is the problem, the way I'm asking, what I'm asking?  All the

 6     questions and all the answers are contained in the interview and

 7     Ms. Korner knows this very well.  He was asked twice, he answered twice.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours know that I'm not asking about that.

 9     I'm asking about whether Mr. Bjelosevic was aware of which questions were

10     going to be asked.

11        Q.   And so your final answer, is Mr. Bjelosevic, you did not know

12     what questions Mr. Krgovic was going to ask you or what topics he was

13     going to cover?

14        A.   I really did not know what questions would be put.  Tentatively,

15     he gave me certain guide-lines as to the fact that what would be

16     discussed is what had been discussed previously, but he did not say we

17     are going to have such and such questions put to you, so that was not the

18     preparation as it was.  The structuring of the question did not happen

19     during our conversation.

20        Q.   All right.  So we moved from he didn't discuss what he was going

21     to ask me -- sorry, I'm just going to turn up the exact words.  "I had no

22     idea about what questions Mr. Krgovic was going to ask" was -- your

23     answer now is that he gave certain guide-lines but didn't say that he was

24     going to put such and such a question; is that right?

25        A.   I did not say which subjects would be discussed.  I said that he

Page 19973

 1     would -- that we would go through -- that he went with me through certain

 2     things in terms of what would be discussed.  That's what I said.

 3        Q.   I want to move to a slightly different topic.  In the meetings

 4     that you had with the Stanisic Defence team, did they ask you to produce

 5     documents or did you volunteer to give them documents?

 6        A.   I gave a number of documents voluntarily.  I can put it that way,

 7     because I understood through the conversation that these documents could

 8     be useful in proving the truth.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

10     microphones please be switched off, we can barely hear the witness.

11     Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand what you

13     meant when you said "voluntarily."

14             MS. KORNER:

15        Q.   Did they ask you for any documents that you were able to get hold

16     of that related to specific topics, or did you volunteer and say I have

17     documents that may help you?

18        A.   As in the conversation in 2004, in the interview, some of the

19     documents that I handed over to the investigators, that is how I handed

20     over certain documents to the Defence of Mr. Stanisic, the documents that

21     I had at my disposal.

22        Q.   Did you keep -- I'll come back to records at your disposal,

23     documents at your disposal.  Did you keep a record of the documents that

24     you handed over to the Stanisic Defence team?

25        A.   No.

Page 19974

 1        Q.   What you are saying, you just gave them documents without keeping

 2     any record whatsoever of the documents that you gave them?

 3        A.   I didn't record anything.

 4        Q.   How many documents did you give them in all?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I really cannot say now.  I'm bound to say the

 6     truth and I cannot say things just off the cuff.  I really don't know.

 7        Q.   You have, as the Trial Chamber has seen, I would suggest, an

 8     almost perfect recall of events that happened 17 years ago.  Are you

 9     saying that you cannot recall how many, let's just take it, was it 100,

10     200, 300?

11        A.   When speaking of how it is that I remember certain things, not

12     all impressions are equally important to a person and not everything

13     leaves the same kind of deep imprint in human memory.  Some things remain

14     carved in memory and there are others that you simply consider to be

15     unimportant or less important and you don't remember them.

16        Q.   Let me take the figures again.  Are you saying it was something

17     in the region of 100 or less than 100?

18        A.   Certainly less but how many I really don't know.

19        Q.   Where did you get the documents from that you provided to the

20     Defence?

21        A.   Well, in different ways.

22        Q.   Yes.  Explain the different ways.

23        A.   Well, there are some documents that I have had since 1992.  There

24     are some documents that I received later.

25        Q.   Let's start with the documents you've had since 1992.  Do you

Page 19975

 1     mean you personally?

 2        A.   For example, the document I showed you here, that order that

 3     stood on the bulletin board, yes, that is the document from 1992.  I had

 4     it since then, yes.

 5        Q.   Yes.  You explained that one.  What other documents did you

 6     provide to the Defence which you personally had had since 1992?

 7        A.   I think that there are some orders of the Crisis Staff that I was

 8     to use for explaining the work of the MUP, et cetera.

 9        Q.   How many Crisis Staff documents did you have at home?

10        A.   Maybe, well, what had to do with me and where I was supposed to

11     attend meetings, and I think it was two or three documents, something

12     like that.

13        Q.   And these are official documents that you were sent in your

14     official capacity as chief of the CSB Doboj in 1992?

15        A.   These documents were addressed to me using my name and surname.

16     I explained how specific my work was at the time.  I was not in the

17     office all the time at the centre.  For the most part I was at the

18     command post and at the front line.

19        Q.   Yes.  But that's not an answer to my question, and you know it

20     isn't, Mr. Bjelosevic.  Are these official documents that you were sent

21     in your official capacity?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Again, the very same question he, the witness gave

23     the answer.  Yes, he did.  On page 24/14:

24             "These documents were addressed to me using my name and surname."

25             JUDGE HALL:  That's an answer, but there's an element to the

Page 19976

 1     question which Ms. Korner is exploring which isn't clear from what the

 2     witness has said.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  In Serbian it sounded like an answer very clear to

 4     the question.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I'll try and make it a bit clearer.

 6        Q.   I'm sure the documents were addressed to you using your name and

 7     surname.  Would you have been sent the documents about Crisis Staff

 8     meetings or decisions if you had not been chief of the CSB in Doboj?

 9        A.   Well, I don't know who they invited and in which capacity, but

10     they invited me to two or three meetings and on every one of these

11     documents what was written in pen was my name and surname and further

12     down what I was supposed to do at that meeting.

13        Q.   Were they not, Mr. Bjelosevic, official documents which should

14     have been kept in the records of the Doboj CSB?

15        A.   But the document did not state CSB Doboj.  You can have a look at

16     these documents.  It said my name and surname.

17        Q.   Well, that's the next question in fact that I'm going to come on

18     to, Mr. Bjelosevic.  Are you prepared either to hand over to a

19     representative of the OTP or to bring to court when you return, copies of

20     all documents that you personally have at home that relate to the events

21     of 1992 when you were the chief of the CSB Doboj?

22        A.   I think that we actually went through all of those documents in

23     2004, 2009, and now here.

24        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, what you think and what is the reality is maybe

25     two different things.  But I'm simply asking you at the moment whether

Page 19977

 1     you are prepared to hand over copies of all the documents which you have

 2     at home which relate to the events of 1992 whilst you were the chief of

 3     the CSB Doboj?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Are you prepared to hands them over to an investigator from the

 6     OTP?

 7        A.   If you --

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can I rephrase that, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   To the Sarajevo field office.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  The witness started to answer, please leave the

11     opportunity to the witness to answer.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say that if you wish when

13     I return here on the 16th I will photocopy everything and bring

14     everything I have.  As a matter of fact, in 2004, and you will probably

15     find that there, I photocopied something from my notebooks.  I would like

16     to say something here and I would like it to be fully clear:  I have

17     nothing to hide and I do not wish to hide anything.  I came here to tell

18     the truth and that is why I appear as a witness here.  Let that be

19     perfectly clear.

20             MS. KORNER:

21        Q.   Yes, thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic.  So -- and in fact, I was going

22     to -- I changed because I was going to say:  Are you prepared to have

23     someone from the Sarajevo field office collect those documents in advance

24     because otherwise it will mean a delay when you get here while we all

25     look at the documents?

Page 19978

 1        A.   If I understood you correctly, you're asking me whether I am

 2     prepared to photocopy all of this and then hand it over to someone before

 3     I actually come here?  Somebody would contact me; right?

 4        Q.   Yes, someone will contact you from the Sarajevo field office, you

 5     don't have to do the photocopying, you can either give them to them, they

 6     will be returned to you, because you'll get a receipt for the documents,

 7     or you can photocopy them yourself, whichever you prefer?

 8        A.   I accept.  Fine.

 9        Q.   Now, you said some the documents you had at home.  Where else of

10     the 92 documents or so which are on the list that the Defence have

11     provided that you provided, where did the other documents come from?

12        A.   I received a number of documents as photocopies while speaking to

13     the Defence.  They showed me a number of documents and they say that they

14     received them from the OTP.

15        Q.   Yes.  There are, according to the list we've been given, numbers

16     of documents that were shown to you that did not come from us but came

17     from you and you alone.  Now, where did you get the documents that

18     weren't at home?

19        A.   A number of documents are from the book of General Lisica, or

20     rather the books of General Lisica.

21        Q.   Leave aside the books of General Lisica.  Did you take copies of

22     any documents from the CSB Doboj where you were working as head of the

23     archives, or analyst?

24        A.   As for a number of documents, I would like to remind you that in

25     the media 2003 I read that in Zenica there were some proceedings, roughly

Page 19979

 1     that's what it said in the newspapers, that there were proceedings

 2     instituted against me and they said that they didn't have my address and

 3     then I reported to the court and OTP in Zenica.  I called them and I

 4     asked them what this was all about.  They said to me that there was a

 5     request for carrying out an investigation and that it would be a good

 6     idea if I were to show up.  I indeed went there.  They read that request

 7     to me, so I saw what it was all about.  When I returned, I asked for some

 8     documents that have to do with those allegations in the request for an

 9     investigation.

10        Q.   You mean when you returned to the CSB Doboj?

11        A.   When I returned from Zenica, yes, I returned to the Doboj centre,

12     and they said to me that there were a number of documents there that some

13     of the documents were from there, they had them photocopied and they

14     provided me with these copies.

15        Q.   Right.  So some of the documents that you have provided to the

16     Defence come from the CSB Doboj via you for the purposes of any potential

17     Defence you have to mount; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I see the time, I am afraid I'm going

20     to go a little bit over the break because I still have a few question to

21     ask about documents, if that's all right.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, when you say go over the break, are you

23     suggesting that we continue beyond --

24             MS. KORNER:  No, Your Honours.  I see it's 10.25 which is the

25     time for the break.

Page 19980

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I appreciate that.

 2             MS. KORNER:  No, I have got about another 15, 20 minutes worth of

 3     questions.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Is there any reason why we can't do that now?

 5             MS. KORNER:  Oh, well, no.  If you want -- certainly if you want

 6     to.  I thought you wanted to have the break.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Let me just check with the Court Officer first.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  The universal view is that we continue, Ms. Korner.

10             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I am afraid actually having looked, it's going

11     to take about another 30 minutes.  Is that all right?

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that will be 45.

13             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I mean I've just seen there's one whole area

14     that I omitted --

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may be practical, we need to

16     talk about the scheduling as well, so therefore I think --

17             JUDGE HALL:  I think for the convenience of the accused who are

18     in the care of the security officers, so we'll take the break and come

19     back in 20 minutes.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, I want to deal with documents at the Doboj CSB,

Page 19981

 1     please.  You told us that you got some documents from Doboj CSB for the

 2     purposes of a potential defence.  The archives in the Doboj CSB, where

 3     exactly are they located?

 4        A.   I don't know which room it is where the archive is, but it must

 5     be somewhere in the building.

 6        Q.   I am sorry --

 7        A.   I assume that it's somewhere in the basement.

 8        Q.   Yes.  You've worked for Doboj CSB now for something like 17 or 18

 9     years -- no, sorry, 20 years.  Are you telling us you don't know in which

10     room the archives are kept?

11        A.   Well, first, esteemed Prosecutor, I don't work that long in the

12     security services centre in Doboj.  I worked there until the beginning of

13     1994 when I went to Bijeljina.  After that, I spent a period of time in

14     Sarajevo, then I went back to Bijeljina and also to Brcko and Banja Luka.

15     And then in 2000 -- I don't remember exactly which year I returned to the

16     Doboj CSB, and I think that the archive is in the basement, in the same

17     building where the station and the centre are.

18        Q.   And this is just a marginal digression, is it right that the SJB

19     Doboj and the CSB Doboj since 1991 or maybe before have always been in

20     the same building?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   All right.  So the archives you think are in the basement of the

23     CSB.  Who is in charge of the archives?  Name of the person, please.

24        A.   I don't know.  Trust me, I don't know who is in charge of the

25     archives.

Page 19982

 1        Q.   You are the head of analysis and you don't know who is in charge

 2     of the archives at CSB Doboj?

 3        A.   I don't know the person.  I don't know the individual, but

 4     logically speaking it's something to do with the administrative office

 5     and it definitely should be admin and financial department or something

 6     like that.  It may sound incredible to you, but I really don't know the

 7     first and the last name of the person.

 8        Q.   All right.  Who is the head of the administration and financial

 9     department at the present time in Doboj CSB?

10        A.   Branislav Petricevic, he was mentioned here, he used to be an

11     inspector in the crime prevention department.

12        Q.   The documentation that is retained in the archives of the CSB, is

13     that separated into each separate department or administration within the

14     CSB?  In other words, is there a separate set of binders of documents for

15     the crime prevention department or for the financial department and so

16     on?

17        A.   This is regulated by the Law on Documents and Archives.  I think

18     that's the exact name of the law.  I assume that the documents are

19     grouped according to the terms, by that I mean how long they have to be

20     kept.  There is a group of document that have to be kept for a shorter

21     period of time, some of them for a longer period of time, and yet another

22     permanently.  So that's, I assume, is also the basis for that

23     classification in the archive.

24        Q.   Is the answer to that -- without looking at the law, you can't

25     tell -- you can't give me the answer as to how the documents are

Page 19983

 1     archived?

 2        A.   I don't know how they are sorted, but I suppose that that is the

 3     criterion.  I haven't done that job.  I was never involved in that and

 4     that's why I don't know.  This's why I don't know the criteria.  However,

 5     it seems logical to me because I know that some documents are supposed to

 6     be kept longer and some shorter time, and also, yeah, it would also be

 7     quite understandable if they were categorised according to the lines of

 8     work.

 9        Q.   The documents that have to be kept include any dispatches sent by

10     or received by the Doboj CSB; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, but I don't know how long.  I think that the dispatches -- I

12     don't want to make a mistake, but I think that the term for keeping

13     dispatches is three years.

14        Q.   But from what you tell us you were able to get copies of

15     documents from 1992 in 2003?

16        A.   I don't know what exactly you mean.

17        Q.   Well, I'll read back what you said to us about the documents you

18     said you got copies of from the CSB:

19             "As for a number of documents," this is at page 27, line 23, "I

20     would like to remind you that in the media in 2003 I read that in Zenica

21     there were some proceedings" sorry, "roughly that's what it said in the

22     newspapers, there were proceedings instituted against me, and they said

23     they didn't have my address and I reported to the court and the OTP in

24     Zenica" and so on and so forth.  "When I returned, I asked for some

25     documents that have to do with those allegations in the request for an

Page 19984

 1     investigation."

 2             "Q. You mean when you returned to the CSB Doboj?

 3             "A. When I returned from Zenica, yes, I returned to the Doboj

 4     centre, and they said to me there were a number of documents, some of the

 5     documents were from there, they had them photocopied and provided me with

 6     those copies."

 7             Is that right?

 8        A.   I don't think that was the exact interpretation, but in essence,

 9     yes, that's about it.  But I don't know what your question is.  That's

10     what I didn't understand.  You said that in 2003 I took documents, I

11     don't know how.  It was more of a statement than a question, that's why I

12     didn't quite understand what you were asking me.

13        Q.   Well, I'll try again, I'm sorry, Mr. Bjelosevic.  I want you to

14     be quite clear.  My understanding from that answer was that having been

15     to Zenica in 2003 to find out what the investigation against you was

16     about, when you came back to Doboj, you got copies of documents that were

17     in the Doboj CSB about matters in 1992?

18        A.   Yes, a number of documents.  Yes.

19        Q.   So in 2003 certainly there were documents in the Doboj CSB,

20     dispatches and the like, that relate to 1992; is that right?

21        A.   What do you mean suddenly?  What do you mean by that?

22        Q.   I didn't say suddenly.  I don't know where it was interpreted as

23     suddenly, but I didn't say "suddenly."  Mr. Bjelosevic, I don't want to

24     go around the houses like this, but in 2003 were you able to have copied

25     for your purposes documents that related to 1992?

Page 19985

 1        A.   Let me be -- or let me attempt to be very clear.  In that request

 2     for investigation I found a number of statements and characterisations

 3     which were incorrect.  I said that when it was read out to me and I stand

 4     by it today.  Among other things, it said that our service did not take

 5     any steps against perpetrators of certain violent acts, murders,

 6     et cetera.  And then because I remembered it and I still remember it

 7     today, that there were certain steps taken, I requested that certain data

 8     be found in the KU register.  They found them and I was right.  There

 9     were on-site investigations, there were investigations, there were

10     criminal reports.  We also had a chance to see a number of documents of

11     that nature during the past few days.

12        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, the simple question was in 2003 did you receive

13     copies of documents that related to the 1992 events?

14        A.   Yes.  I did get a number of documents, yes.

15        Q.   And there is no reason at all that you know of why the

16     documentation in 1992 should not still be present in the archives of the

17     Doboj CSB?

18        A.   I didn't understand the question again.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I was checking the interpretation and it was very

20     confusing and it didn't reflect what you said.  That was the precise

21     reason why I was doing it.

22             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Is there -- I will say this slowly and carefully so that there

24     can be no mistake, I hope, in the interpretation.

25             Is there any reason you know of why the documentation from 1992,

Page 19986

 1     part of which you got, should not be in the CSB Doboj?  In other words,

 2     it should still all be there?

 3        A.   That's what I think.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And you are unable to assist as to where exactly in

 5     the building that documentation is kept?

 6        A.   We already spoke about this.  Let me repeat it in order to

 7     clarify.  The documents which, according to the law on documents and

 8     archives, have to be kept permanently or, for instance, for 20 years, and

 9     if we talk about 1992, then such documents should still exist in the

10     archive.  If the terms mandated by the law are shorter and have expired,

11     then there is no obligation to continue keeping such documents.

12        Q.   Apart from your own documents at home, apart from documents that

13     were copied for you in the CSB, are any of the documents which you

14     provided to the Defence from any other source?

15        A.   I don't know.  There are no other sources.  As I said, the two

16     that I mentioned and that book where copies of the documents were

17     published, the book by General Lisica.

18        Q.   Now, in order to stop what would be a very long, boring, and time

19     consuming exercise, we have been given a list by the Defence for

20     Mr. Stanisic of documents which it is said you provided.  I would like

21     you to be given a copy of that list, or a copy given to VWS, because as

22     you know you cannot communicate at all with the Defence or anybody else

23     of that list and to mark, please, for us, which documents you got from

24     the CSB Doboj and which documents were personal documents, and don't

25     worry about Lisica's book because I don't think any of them on there have

Page 19987

 1     anything to do with Lisica's book.  And I would like you to do that,

 2     please, before you return.

 3             Next, please --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry.  Ms. Korner, the documents, the

 5     documents that you just mentioned has got the 65 ter numbers, not in the

 6     world can the witness know what the 65 ter number is, the particular

 7     document.  Maybe you can print out all these documents and then give it

 8     to the witness so he can mark them and explain where he got them.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, he actually has a full binder which he

10     has been using all the way through of all the documents that were used,

11     so I suggest he takes that with him.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  You mean the binder that was used with the --

13             MS. KORNER:  Which he has been using to give evidence when he was

14     giving evidence in chief which has got all the documents, that I

15     understand --

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, yes, yes, but that doesn't contain all the

17     documents we listed.  Because the binder contains only the documents that

18     I intended to show to the witness.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, slight waste of time, but my

20     understanding was the list that we got we asked for a list of the

21     documents which were in the Defence binders which had been provided by

22     this witness.  Do I understand there are -- this includes documents that

23     are not in the Defence binders, because that's -- my understanding was he

24     used only ones in the Defence binders?

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Well, it is my mistake.  They should all be

Page 19988

 1     in the binder.  That's what Ms. Savic explained to me.  So we will

 2     provide the binders to the witness, yes.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes, well, it's quite clear there are other

 4     documents that aren't in the binders from what we are being told, but in

 5     the absence of the Defence handing them over, there's not much I can do

 6     about that.  And, Your Honours, in fact the simplest -- and I've marked

 7     my list.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Bjelosevic --

 9             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  There's a clean copy of the list which

10     was provided which we'll hand over now.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Bjelosevic, you mentioned your own notebook.  As you

12     rightly point out, on the second day of the 2004 interview, you turned up

13     with three photocopied pages of a notebook that you yourself kept during

14     the period of meetings you attended.  That's correct, isn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you still have that notebook?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I would like you, please, to hand over the whole notebook to

19     whoever turns up from the Sarajevo field office.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in parenthesis, can I say I've been

21     asked whether a representative of the Defence could be -- or not been

22     asked it's been put to me that a representative of the Defence should be

23     present.  No objection at all.  We'll notify the Defence of when or, in

24     fact, Mr. Bjelosevic is going to have to notify the field office.  Your

25     Honours, all I'd say is of course that no communication can be held

Page 19989

 1     between the members of the Defence and Mr. Bjelosevic.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  We are not seeking one.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   In that case I'd ask you to hand over, please, the notebook

 5     relating to 1991 and 1992, please.  The whole thing.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  The Chamber is just proposing that

 7     perhaps the simplest solution would be to have Mr. Bjelosevic hand over

 8     the documents and the notebooks and whatever else there is to be handed

 9     over to a representative from the VWS so that the VWS can then pass the

10     documents on to the OTP.

11             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.  Your Honours, if VWS agree to this, then

12     I don't know whether they are prepared to do that, but --

13             JUDGE HALL:  But as far as we are informed, the VWS does have

14     personnel in Sarajevo.

15             MS. KORNER:  I think that's right, yes.

16             JUDGE HALL:  So that would be the easiest and the simplest

17     solution to this little technicality.

18             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I will -- in that case, obviously we'll leave

19     the finer points of the arrangement for outside court, but Mr. Bjelosevic

20     needs to communicate with the VWS in Sarajevo.  Yes.

21        Q.   Did you keep a war diary when you were in the military,

22     Mr. Bjelosevic?

23        A.   Just one more question, if you'd permit me, before I answer your

24     question.  Is somebody going to contact me from that field office or the

25     interpretation that I received was that I should contact them, so what is

Page 19990

 1     it?

 2             JUDGE HALL:  The office will contact you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not have a war diary.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   Could you give us, please, the dates in 1992 when you were

 6     performing the military duties that you have talked about?

 7        A.   Dates.  Already in April I became engaged with the military in a

 8     sense.  In that period, the area of Derventa, Brod, Odzak, Samac had

 9     already been cut off, war was already going in Samac, and at that time I

10     was already making visits to the command and the garrison in Derventa.

11     Then there was the forward command post of the 1st Corps command, it

12     changed its location on several occasions, but more frequent visits and

13     later on the engagement that was sometime beginning of May.

14        Q.   Look, Mr. Bjelosevic, you've got a perfect memory virtually for

15     other dates.  I want the exact dates, please, when you say you were

16     performing military duties?

17        A.   I just told you in my answer.  I told you how it all began.

18        Q.   Are you able to give us the precise dates when you were actually

19     performing military duties under the command of the 1st Krajina Corps?

20        A.   It was a specific situation.  It's one thing when you receive a

21     direct order appointing you to a certain duty.  And it's a different

22     thing when you co-operate and partake in command in relation to certain

23     issues.  One could say that the engagement in the military begins

24     sometime at the beginning of May when the command post was in the village

25     of Strpce near Prnjavor.  From that point on I was present there every

Page 19991

 1     day.  However, I emphasise, that at the beginning of May, or rather, no,

 2     in April, it was in April that parts of the public security station in

 3     Derventa, more precisely the personnel that managed to get out, formed

 4     the station in the local community of Kalenderovci --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  If the interpreter heard the name right.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and another one in another

 7     village.  There was a commander of the milicija station, Ninko Dobrilovic

 8     and there was also a commander of the traffic police station,

 9     Pero Cvjetkovic.  An attempt was made to establish a functioning service,

10     so in that sense I was also engaged there.  So in the beginning, you

11     cannot really draw a sharp line between those two things, but I do

12     emphasise that sometime from the beginning of May I was engaged in the

13     command.  And then sometime towards the end of May I think that the whole

14     police was resubordinated to the army or, more precisely, they were

15     mostly engaged in the military police.  So it was a complex meshwork of

16     obligations, co-ordination -- I don't know if you understand this

17     particular situation.  There were parts of the service outside its

18     station, there were areas where situation should have been regulated,

19     there were specific circumstances, and a lot of time was spent working on

20     that.

21             So my answer would be that it was the beginning of May or the

22     1st of May, I don't remember the exact date, and from that point on I was

23     almost daily there, and then after I was appointed to a command duty, I

24     was mostly in the field with the military.

25        Q.   Right.  All I asked you was for the dates, but let's leave it

Page 19992

 1     there for the time being.  What about the later period of 1992?

 2        A.   The second half of 1992 I think that we've explained that in

 3     the --

 4        Q.   I don't want to stop you, Mr. Bjelosevic, but I don't want an

 5     explanation again.  I'm simply asking for the dates.  You told us it was

 6     April, maybe May to the end of June 1992.  Were you actually performing

 7     military duties towards the end of 1992, because that's what I understood

 8     you to say.  If I'm wrong, tell me now.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask for the Prosecution

10     microphone to be switched off.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't the end of 1992.  It

12     was the end of June of 1992.  It wasn't the end of 1992.

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   Did you do a second period of service under the military whether

15     resubordinated or any other kind for any other period in 1992?

16        A.   Yes, in November I was battalion commander.  Now that we are on

17     the subject, allow me to say one more thing.  In July and August and

18     September and October, and you could see this from the documents, we sent

19     the milicija to the front line all the time.  They were resubordinated to

20     the military and of course I had that in mind.  I contacted the commands

21     very often.  I went there to follow what was going on.  I saw them out in

22     the field, that is something that went on.  But basically after this

23     collegium, after the 11th of July, the functions and the elements of the

24     centres are established and they have their chief and the service of the

25     centre functioned in that period of time.  It is correct that in the

Page 19993

 1     month of November, I was engaged for a combat duty in the Teslic front

 2     line.

 3        Q.   I'm only interested in you, Mr. Bjelosevic, and not any of your

 4     men for the moment.  Do you have your military booklet?

 5        A.   I think so.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Would you be kind enough, please, also to hand that

 7     over?  And I say this is all going to be copied and all the originals

 8     will be given back to you to VWS with all the other documents.

 9        A.   Why not.

10        Q.   Do you have any copies of any orders or dispatches or any

11     material addressed to you during that first period when you say you were

12     with the military from General Talic or any other officers under his

13     command?

14        A.   I tried to find the order on appointment to command duty during

15     the corridor operation.  I haven't found it.  Over the past few days we

16     saw some of the documents that had arrived from the commands.  I think

17     that there are some documents that I did not testify about over the

18     course of the past few days.

19        Q.   Sorry, where are they?  Do you mean there are documents you've

20     given to the Defence which you haven't been asked about?

21        A.   No, I think that I have some more documents, some orders that

22     were not the subject of my testimony here over the past few days.  I'll

23     have a look.

24        Q.   We are interested, as I said to you, in any documents, military,

25     police, or whatever that emanate from 1992.  That is what we would like

Page 19994

 1     you to hand over.  Do you understand that?  So that includes military.

 2        A.   I'll hand everything over to these persons who come to see me.

 3     Trust me, I have no reason to hide anything.  As a matter of fact, I'll

 4     be pleased to hand them over.

 5        Q.   Final matter I want to ask you about is this:  You were asked

 6     when you first began testifying by His Honour Judge Hall whether you had

 7     testified previously before this Tribunal or before any of the courts in

 8     the countries that comprise the former Yugoslavia, and you said "No, not

 9     in these cases."  Can I just ask what you meant by that?

10        A.   If I understood the question correctly then, it was whether I

11     testified before this international criminal tribunal or some other

12     international court about war crimes.  That is what I meant when I said

13     that I had not testified in those cases.

14        Q.   Very well.  But you told us yesterday that you had in fact

15     testified in the trial against Slobodan Karagic for theft?

16        A.   Well, that's not -- well, this is a property related crime and I

17     don't consider that to be a question akin to war crimes.

18        Q.   No, no, I accept that.  As I said, Mr. Bjelosevic, I accept that

19     you understood the question but I'm trying to get another aspect of this.

20     When exactly was this trial against Karagic?

21        A.   I cannot recall.

22        Q.   Well, a rough idea, please?  In the last five years, ten years

23     ago?

24        A.   Since I really cannot recall with any precision, so take this

25     conditionally, please, what I will say now.  It might have been 2001 or

Page 19995

 1     2002, I'm not sure.

 2        Q.   And that was at the Doboj court, was it?

 3        A.   That's right.

 4        Q.   What was the outcome of the trial?  What was the verdict?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I was called in as a witness and I did not follow

 6     the case.  I don't know.

 7        Q.   You had no interest in the result of a case in which you had

 8     testified?  Is that what you are saying?

 9        A.   To tell you the truth, I really wasn't all that interested.  I

10     gave a statement before the court and I did not follow how things went

11     on.

12        Q.   And was that -- was the allegation in 2001 relating back to

13     events of 1992?

14        A.   Yes.  The questions put to me were what does a mobilised vehicle

15     mean and whether the vehicle in question had been mobilised by the

16     service.  That is what I testified about.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

18     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

19             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.

20        Q.   The allegation was theft of a motor vehicle, was it?

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, the witness said, I was

22     questioned.  He was not mentioning the allegations.  He was questioned by

23     the Judge.  That's our system, Ms. Korner, it's different from here.

24             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry.  It really doesn't need an intervention,

25     Mr. Zecevic.  I understand perfectly the system in the former Yugoslavia,

Page 19996

 1     thank you very much.  It's not a question of who he was questioned by.

 2        Q.   What was the allegation about?

 3        A.   I told you that I was called as a witness and that in these

 4     proceedings against Slobodan Karagic certain questions were put to me in

 5     relation to what it means when a vehicle is mobilised, and I was asked

 6     whether I remembered that that particular vehicle had been mobilised in

 7     that way.  I answered the questions put to me and I really don't know how

 8     it all ended.  I really do not know.  You can ask the court about that.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you as a witness to something that happened in 1992.

10     Was this theft of a vehicle belonging to a non-Serb?

11        A.   I was not a witness to the events concerned or the theft.  I was

12     asked whether I remembered that that particular vehicle had been

13     mobilised for the needs of the service, and also what it means to

14     mobilise a vehicle.  I answered those questions to the best of my

15     knowledge.

16        Q.   Do you -- sorry.  Do you have the faintest idea, do you know why

17     it took from 1992 to roughly 2001 to prosecute Mr. Kasagic [sic]?

18        A.   I don't know.  It's not for me to assess that when different

19     court cases were being resolved.  I really don't know about that.

20        Q.   Are you aware of Mr. Kasagic [sic] having been charged with any

21     other offences arising from the events of 1992?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am really sorry.  I believe Ms. Korner is using

23     two persons.  Karagic or Kasagic.

24             MS. KORNER:  Karagic, sorry, you are quite right.  I made a

25     mistake.  Thank you.

Page 19997

 1        Q.   Mr. Karagic.  Sorry.

 2        A.   As far as I know, Slobodan Karagic was criminally charged for

 3     what happened in Teslic in 1992.

 4        Q.   Was he ever prosecuted for that?

 5        A.   I don't know how far the proceedings went and how they ended.  I

 6     know that he was part of that criminal report together with some other

 7     persons.

 8        Q.   It's the Mice again; right?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, that's the group.  Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  And finally, Mr. Bjelosevic, for the time being, are

11     there any other cases in which you have testified relating to the events

12     of 1992 against any other accused?

13        A.   As far as I can remember I was not called to testify anywhere in

14     relation to what happened in 1992.

15        Q.   Apart from this one case?

16        A.   That's right.  If I remember correctly.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's all I ask for the present.

18     Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, you would recall the matters to

20     which we alerted you yesterday and you indicated - that is in terms of

21     the continuation of your testimony - and you indicated in, as a partial

22     answer to the question earlier, and I believe the Court Officer has

23     confirmed, and I would wish you to reconfirm this for the record, that

24     the 16th of May would not be inconvenient to you, is that the position?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yesterday I spoke to my

Page 19998

 1     family and we looked at some other engagements that had previously been

 2     planned and that's why my phone was on when it went off yesterday and I

 3     apologise for that once again.  So, yes, that particular date would do.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So -- sorry you were going to say

 5     something, Ms. Korner?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours, I think when it comes to the

 7     Registry, I've been asked to confirm what it is exactly that

 8     Mr. Bjelosevic is supposed to be handing over to VWS, so can I just

 9     confirm so that it can be printed out, all documents in his possession,

10     military, police, or otherwise that relate to the events of 1992.

11     Second, his own notebook of meetings he attended in 1991 and 1992.

12     Third, his military booklet.  I think that's the complete list.

13             JUDGE HALL:  So as a reminder, Mr. Bjelosevic, what Ms. Korner

14     just said on the record would be passed on to VWS and they would have

15     that list to you, so in other words, you don't have to -- if remember it

16     all well and good, but you would have as an aid this list that they would

17     provide you.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I would ask that he is reminded of

19     that he cannot communicate --

20             JUDGE HALL:  I intend to do that, Ms. Korner.

21             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, we are for the reasons that I would

23     have explained earlier, taking an extended break in this matter.  Upon

24     the rising of the Court today, we will reconvene on the 2nd of May, but

25     your testimony is suspended -- the continuation of your cross-examination

Page 19999

 1     is suspended until the agreed date of the 16th of May, and with the

 2     lengthy break, I am obliged to remind you of what I said at the beginning

 3     during the adjournment the first day, that having been sworn as a witness

 4     in this matter, you cannot have any communication at all with counsel

 5     from either the Office of the Prosecution or the counsel representing

 6     either of the accused.  Moreover, in such conversations as you have with

 7     persons other than counsel, please remember that you cannot discuss your

 8     testimony before the Tribunal.  You are not yet released as a witness,

 9     that will come at the end of your examination-in-chief -- of the

10     re-examination and any questions the Judges have.  And with that we take

11     the adjournment.  I wish that everyone has a safe -- yes, Mr. Zecevic.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, Your Honours, before we take the

13     adjournment, I have two matters to raise.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Shall I excuse the witness?

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  By all means, yes.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bjelosevic, you will be escorted from the

17     courtroom and we will continue with our procedural matters.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May I just ask you

19     something?

20             JUDGE HALL:  Certainly, sir.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand what it

22     is that I'm supposed to do with this list.

23             JUDGE HALL:  That list, as I understand it - and counsel can jump

24     in and correct me if I misstate anything - is an index, as it were, of

25     the binder which you have been or will be handed by VWS.  That list is --

Page 20000

 1     will be difficult for you to follow, but what they would require you to

 2     do is to indicate from the documents which you will have in front of you

 3     the ones that you have -- could counsel, assist, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's not actually a list of

 5     [indiscernible] the binder.  It's a list of the documents which are

 6     contained in the binder which it is said by the Defence was given them by

 7     Mr. Bjelosevic.  And it was pointed out that just from the list it would

 8     be difficult to identify.  But the documents are in the bundle and so he

 9     has just got to mark off which ones are the ones he gave.  And from

10     where.  Sorry, from where he gave them -- sorry from where he acquired

11     them.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, can I just ask if the witness will be

13     able to identify the documents in the binder from the list that you have

14     given to him?

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  They've got all the documents are numbered and

16     they've got the number on them.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Except for the fact -- I'm sorry to interrupt,

18     except for the fact that the document which we provided to the Office of

19     the Prosecution is in English and, as we know, the witness doesn't speak

20     English.  Therefore, what we can do is provide the very same document in

21     Serbian and have a copy given to the VWS so the witness knows what

22     documents he needs to look at.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So, Mr. Bjelosevic --

24             MS. KORNER:  There's no titles in any of the documents.  It just

25     gives numbers.  There's nothing in English other than item or receipt

Page 20001

 1     of -- given by Bjelosevic.  I don't follow.  But, Your Honour, it may be

 2     the simplest thing is he has got the binder, if he just goes through

 3     looking at the documents and simply if he likes himself lists the tab

 4     numbers, he has got them all under tab numbers, the ones he handed over

 5     from where.  Your Honour, the only other alternative is to go through a

 6     time exhausting exercise of going through each individual document

 7     ourselves with him.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  So the exercise, Mr. Bjelosevic, is for you to

10     identify from the documents that you have the ones that would have come

11     from the archives and the one that you would have had from your own

12     copies or from somewhere else, so there's two or three sets of markings

13     or indications.  Can we further assist?  I trust that's clear.  Do you

14     have any other questions?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just want to be sure that I

16     understood this right.  I take this and I take the list, right, and from

17     this group of documents I am supposed to say which ones on this list are

18     the ones that I handed over to the Defence; right?

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, the purpose, Mr. Bjelosevic, is to indicate

20     on the list where you got each of these documents from.  The Prosecution

21     is asking you to identify or to indicate on the list where you got these

22     documents from.  And there are two or maybe three possibilities.  Either

23     you had them at your home already or you obtained them from the archives

24     at some point or maybe you had them from somewhere else, these are the

25     three alternatives that I can see, and what the Court is asking you to

Page 20002

 1     indicate in respect of each of the documents on the list where you

 2     obtained that document you from.  Is it clear now?

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And to be totally clear, and I will be corrected

 4     if I'm wrong, but the list contains only documents that you gave to the

 5     Defence.  No?  Isn't that right?  Okay.  Forget about that.

 6             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] It's not a complete list

 7     of the documents he handed over.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I can explain.  The list contains the provenance

 9     of the documents contained in this binder.  So there is a number of

10     documents which we received from the disclosure from the OTP from MUP,

11     and some of the documents have been received from Mr. Bjelosevic.  And he

12     needs to pay attention only to the documents he provided to us.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner --

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I still don't quite understand what it

16     was the Defence are purporting to tell us here, but it doesn't really

17     matter.  I want him to go through the documents in the binder, tell us

18     which of them he provided, whether or not we also provided copies through

19     our disclosure.  If he provided them, where they came from in the way

20     that His Honour Judge Harhoff has explained.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  If you have no other questions,

22     Mr. Bjelosevic, the usher will escort you out, and we would see you again

23     on the 16th of May.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  So I'm supposed to take

25     this with me?

Page 20003

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I had two matters, I just lost one of them.

 5     Perhaps I will remember.

 6             Your Honours, the point of the matter is the following:  Today on

 7     page 6, Ms. Korner -- page 6, line 7, 8, 9, and 10, Ms. Korner said:

 8             "I'm told that it was disclosed on the 1st of April 2010 in

 9     batch -- we don't know what the batch number is, it's on the CD given to

10     the Defence on the 1st of April 2010 and it's also on EDS."

11             Now, Your Honours, the situation is as follows:  We received the

12     batch, the disclosure batch 115 on the 23rd of March, 2010.  The next

13     batch 116 was received on the 14th of April, 2010.  There was no, and I

14     repeat, there was no disclosure on the 1st of April, 2010 neither to us

15     nor the Zupljanin Defence, we checked.

16             Now, the EDS has been checked at least five times.  The document

17     does not exist on the EDS.  Now, what the Office of the Prosecutor

18     provided to us is the following e-mail which we received on the 1st of

19     April:

20             "Counsel, Ms. Savic informed us that the documents in the

21     attached note were not available on the EDS.  Uploading them to EDS is

22     taking longer than anticipated, so we will disclose them to you on two

23     CDs this morning in court.  Receipt of this mail will constitute proof of

24     receipt of two CDs unless otherwise indicated."

25             We never received these two CDs.  I myself was not in the court

Page 20004

 1     on the 1st of April, but I'm told and I was assured a number of times

 2     that we haven't received the two discs mentioned in this -- two CDs

 3     mentioned in this mail.  The same goes for the Zupljanin Defence.  They

 4     have no record of receiving two discs on the 1st of April, 2010.  That is

 5     all I wanted to say.  Thank you.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, I'm really sorry to hear that, but we say they

 7     were disclosed in court.  If they were not, I'm really surprised that

 8     Ms. Savic, who as you will know is considered to be the most remarkably

 9     efficient woman, did not write back saying where are the CDs you promised

10     us.  They were disclosed.  The documents are in EDS.  What actually

11     happened was the request, original request from Ms. Savic saying we can't

12     find the following list of ERNs which we wanted on EDS, will you provide

13     them on disc.  We had no obligation to do that, we did that, we gave them

14     the disc.  They never wrote back.  I don't know what they did with them

15     but that's the situation.  We deny absolutely that we did not give them

16     these CDs and we are comforted by that is that we heard from neither

17     Defence saying they hadn't given it to us.  So I hope that's the end of

18     the matter.

19             Your Honours, there's one other matter which is this:  And can I

20     say we will now return to the old system whereby which we had originally

21     a physical piece of paper was handed to the Defence and they had to sign

22     which took a long time and meant if they were in Belgrade and we were

23     here they wouldn't get it, but if this is going to be dealt with in this

24     way that's what's going to happen, we'll go back to the old system.

25             The second matter is this:  In terms and without any hesitation

Page 20005

 1     this morning, Mr. Bjelosevic said that he made and signed a statement for

 2     Mr. Cvijetic.  I would now like a copy of that statement.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I still maintain that

 4     I do not have that statement and that I did not take such a sort of

 5     statement from Mr. Bjelosevic.  Maybe my memory is not the best but at

 6     that moment I found around 5.000 documents that I had to organise.  When

 7     I return to Bijeljina, I'm going to go again through my documentation.

 8     If I find something, I'm going to bring it.  But as far as I remember

 9     right now, no.  I only took the most basic information that I needed at

10     the time and I listed them the last time.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And with that we take the adjournment to

12     the 2nd of May which I trust for everybody will be not only a safe time

13     but a time for reflection.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.57 a.m.

15                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of May,

16                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.