1 Wednesday, 4 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE HALL: Could the Registrar please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
7 number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good afternoon to everyone. May we have the appearances please.
11 But before I do that, I note for the record that we reconvene
12 under Rule 15 bis, Judge Harhoff being involved in another matter that is
13 concurrently sitting with this case.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm
15 Tom Hannis, along with Belinda Pidwell and Crispian Smith for the
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
18 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
19 Stanisic Defence this afternoon. Thank you.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic
21 appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And if there is no reason to delay us,
23 would the usher please escort the witness back to the stand.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: And Aleksandar Aleksic who has just appeared in the
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon, Professor Bajagic. Before
3 Mr. Zecevic resumes his examination-in-chief, I remind you you're still
4 on your oath.
5 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 WITNESS: MLADEN BAJAGIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bajagic.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Mr. Bajagic, yesterday towards the very end of the session we
13 discussed paragraphs 145, 146, and 147 in relation to Article 27 of the
14 Law on Internal Affairs. Tab 32, footnote 42.3 [as interpreted]. P530
15 is its number.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the
17 Law on Internal Affairs on our monitors, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, can I get those binders with
19 the tabs?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, I apologise. Thank you for
21 having reminded me. P530. So Exhibit 530, tab 32, footnote 142.3. We
22 need Article 27 and 32. That is page 4 in the Serbian text and I think
23 it is page 4 and 5 of the English text.
24 Q. Mr. Bajagic, yesterday on page 20145, -146, and -147, you spoke
25 about these matters. You do recall that we mentioned some examples in
1 terms of regulations of municipal authorities that were according to the
2 law submitted to the Ministry of the Interior. Do you remember that?
3 A. Of course I do.
4 Q. And you explained to us then, and we also showed that on
5 different examples, what kind of regulations this involved; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, since I have demonstrated the context, I would like to show
8 a few documents that I would like you to comment upon. I would like you
9 to say a few words about the nature of these documents. Tab 16.
10 65 ter Defence 626D1. Let us just wait for the English translation. We
11 see it now.
12 Mr. Bajagic, this is a document of the local organ of government
13 from that time, the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most. The date is the
14 31st of May, 1992. The form is that of an order. And we see that it was
15 also submitted to the public security station. We see that under
16 number 3.
17 Bearing in mind everything that we discussed beforehand, the
18 provisions of the law, can you give us your comment regarding the nature
19 of this document? When I say the nature of this document, I mean from
20 the point of view of the Ministry of the Interior and its functioning.
21 A. This document, as we can see, is an order that the Crisis Staff
22 of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most, therefore an executive organ,
23 is sending to several institutions. It cannot be one of the examples
24 that we've already demonstrated in relation to Article 27 of the
25 Law on Internal Affairs because this does not involve sending a document
1 that involves an initiative or a proposal regarding a certain problem.
2 This, rather, is a direct order from a municipal organ of government to
3 various entities, including the public security station, that should act
4 in accordance with that order. So we are not looking at it in the
5 context of Article 27 of the law; rather, this is an order issued by the
6 Crisis Staff to the public security station as the lowest-ranking organ
7 in the Ministry of the Interior.
8 Q. Mr. Bajagic, in your view, this kind of order of a local organ of
9 government to the local public security station, is that in accordance
10 with the law or has that kind of situation been envisaged by the
11 Law on Internal Affairs?
12 A. Such orders are not in accordance with the
13 Law on Internal Affairs and not with -- they are not in accordance with
14 other laws that were in force at the time either.
15 Q. In your view, public security stations or organs, do they have a
16 duty based on the law and regulations pertaining to Internal Affairs? Do
17 they have to act in accordance with such orders?
18 A. No. Public security stations and other organisations on a
19 territorial basis do not have the duty to act in accordance with such
21 Q. In paragraph 146 and the footnote pertaining to that paragraph,
22 and that is footnote 179, you list a number of documents by way of an
23 illustration to the effect that such orders were implemented directly
24 after all.
25 A. Yes, these are documents that I have singled out of a large body
1 of documents that I researched in order to illustrate my previously
2 presented position. As for all of these documents listed in 179, they
3 show that the local government organs, that is to say at municipal levels
4 and higher, issued orders to organi units of the
5 Ministry of the Interior, and in one of these documents, they were
6 exactly -- actually dealing with personnel matters, which is in direct
7 contravention of the Law on the Ministry -- on Internal Affairs.
8 As we can see, these are the last two documents that are listed
9 here; its decision on the appointment of commanders in the Prijedor SJB
10 and the decision on the appointment of the commander of the Omarska SJB.
11 Actually, such decisions made by Crisis Staffs as municipal executive
12 organs are absolutely not in accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs
13 of the Serb Republic of BH that was in force at the time.
14 Q. All right. Tell us what was in accordance with the law. Can you
15 explain that briefly, the procedure involved?
16 A. In accordance with the law, these appointments can be made by the
17 head of the centre of security stations with the agreement of the
18 ministry headquarters, and it meant that there should be accompanying
19 documents, namely clearance related to the candidate, and other
21 Q. In these two cases, did you have any -- any parameters that would
22 indicate that the chief of the CSB was aware of this, of these orders or,
23 rather, decisions?
24 A. Since I analyse these two documents that we are speaking about
25 specifically, nowhere can we see from these documents that the chief of
1 the CSB that involved the territory of these two public security stations
2 was aware of the appointment of these persons or that he gave his
3 consent. These two documents clearly show that it was only the municipal
4 organs of government that carried out this appointment. Once again, I
5 say that it is not in accordance with the law that was in force.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would
8 like to tender this document.
9 MR. HANNIS: I do have an initial objection. The last two
10 documents spoken about, I believe, are 65 ter 0084D1 and 0107D1; is that
11 correct? The two Prijedor appointments.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I don't have the reference. I have the
13 reference in the footnotes. Footnote 179.
14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and I'm looking at that. Is that the
15 appointment of the commanders in Prijedor SJB and the appointment of
16 commander for Omarska SJB?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct, yes.
18 MR. HANNIS: The footnote lists those both as being dated
19 11 May 1992, at least in my English translation of the report. And the
20 documents themselves in e-court seem to be 11 May 1993. And therefore if
21 they're May 1993, I object as they're outside the scope of our indictment
22 period, and therefore I think they're not relevant.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: But there is a misunderstanding. I will check in
24 the original, also it says 1992. And I will check these documents during
25 the break, and I'll come back to that. What I was offering --
1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I've looked at the originals in e-court
2 and they do say 1993.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis, I tendered the document
4 from tab 16. 626D1 is its 65 ter number.
5 MR. HANNIS: If that's the document regarding Sanski Most
6 Crisis Staff, I don't have an objection to that. But I understood you to
7 be talking now about footnote 179 and the appointments of the chief for
8 Prijedor SJB and Omarska.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I was making -- I'm sorry, I need to explain.
10 I showed this document to the witness, the witness commented on the
11 document, then I was making a relation between this document and the
12 number of documents listed in his footnote 179. And then the witness
13 mentioned these two documents and we continued talking about that. But
14 what I'm offering is this particular document.
15 MR. HANNIS: No objection to the Sanski Most document. Only to
16 note, Your Honours, that it is a document that appears the Defence had at
17 the beginning of the Prosecution case and could have and should have been
18 shown to one of the Sanski Most witnesses who testified here in the
19 Prosecution case.
20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
21 No doubt that last point, Mr. Hannis, will be the subject of a
22 Prosecution submission much later on.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 626D1 will become
24 Exhibit 1D536.
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, are you through with this line of
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE HALL: There is a question by way of clarification which I
4 wish to put to the witness, and it is this: And here I'm going to rely
5 heavily on the assistance of the interpreters to convey the concepts that
6 I'm trying to separate. And it is this: I'm familiar from my own
7 experiences and I'm sure is isn't peculiar to my country, it's probably
8 universal, that decisions such as appointments like this could be
9 irregular but nevertheless valid. Do I understand, Mr. Bajagic, that you
10 are saying that these appointments were merely irregular or that they
11 were wholly invalid or illegal?
12 Do you understand the distinction I'm making?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't specific. These
14 appointments were not in accordance with the law, so they were unlawful.
15 JUDGE HALL: But could they, notwithstanding that they were
16 unlawful, in your view be effective?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course such unlawful
18 appointments have an effect. They simply show that the
19 Ministry of the Interior could not establish a single chain of running
20 that organ. Of course, proposals and initiatives regarding certain
21 candidates could come from municipal organs of government, but they
22 cannot authoritatively make appointments by way of their own decisions.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, could my volume please
1 be turned down? It is very disconcerting. It's too loud. I do
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you hear well now?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can you hear now? Now?
7 A. I can hear you but it's very loud. I can hear this echo.
8 It's okay. Never mind.
9 Q. Is it better now?
10 A. Again it's loud, but never mind; I don't want to make a problem.
11 Obviously not much can be done.
12 Q. Mr. Bajagic, when you answered His Honour's questions, the
13 questions put by Judge Hall, the honourable presiding judge, you said
14 that that was not in accordance with the law. Which law did you have in
15 mind when you said that, please?
16 A. I meant the Law on Internal Affairs of the
17 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, of course.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bajagic, while preparing this expert report, did
19 you come across any other situations in which such decisions or similar
20 ones made by local government organs were made and sent to public
21 security stations?
22 A. The examples I referred to in footnote 179 of my expert report
23 are but a few documents in relation to the sea of documents that I found
24 when writing this expert report. I would like to draw your attention to
25 footnotes in other parts of the report that also indicate that municipal
1 government organs very often with regard to different questions issued
2 immediate directions and orders to public security stations. As in the
3 case of the documents from footnote 179, that is not in accordance with
4 the Law on Internal Affairs of the Serb Republic of BH which was passed
5 in 1992, as we know.
6 Q. Do I understand correctly that you are actually saying that this
7 was the de facto situation? Is this understanding of mine correct?
8 A. In part of my expert report I analysed the de facto situation on
9 the ground with regard to the organisation and the functioning of the
10 MUP. All I have previously said is -- has to do with this situation:
11 The relations that existed between the ministry and the individual
12 organisational units in the territory of the Serb Republic of BH.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the following
14 document, tab 15, 65 ter 614D1.
15 Q. Mr. Bajagic, I'm going to show you another document, one that is
16 not cited in the footnotes of your expert report. This is a conclusion
17 of the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality signed by its president,
18 Dr. Stakic, and it's about the method of calculation and payment of
19 salaries in enterprises, organisation, and communities for the month of
20 May. Here's what I would like to know: If you have any comment about
21 this document, especially paragraph 2 of item 4 of this document, then I
22 would like to hear it.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thanks for scrolling, or, rather,
24 turning the page.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document is one of those I
1 spoke about. This is about the payment of salaries pursuant to the
2 decision of the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality. These
3 salaries are also those of the members of the SJB. This activity of the
4 municipal authorities is also not in compliance with the Law on
5 Home Affairs [as interpreted] because the MUP, as a centralised body of
6 public administration, had a unified manner of paying salaries
7 internally, from the top down to the lowest organisational unit. Members
8 of the MUP, by virtue of taking up employment with the ministry, were
9 entitled to receive salaries under the law in this unified manner.
10 Although it is not a bad thing that the municipal authorities should take
11 care of persons too, but still this is not in compliance with the law,
12 because municipal authorities, without any previous agreement, are not
13 entitled to pay salaries or nor do they have the right to request
14 certificates, as we see in this paragraph.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bajagic, do you know which local authorities in
17 1992 in the territory of the RS or, more broadly speaking, in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina were created, and possibly if you know the sequence?
19 A. Until the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, at the level of
20 local authorities in that system there were Municipal Assemblies and
21 their Executive Boards as their, well, executive bodies. And the system
22 that prevailed in the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the
23 beginning, that is, April, Crisis Staffs began emerging. But then
24 pursuant to a decision of the highest authorities of the state, they were
25 transformed into War Presidencies.
1 Finally, which means in late June, I believe, but let me not
2 speculate - you can find exact information in my expert report - these
3 War Presidencies, also pursuant to a decision of the highest authorities
4 of the state, became war commissions. Such names of these local
5 authorities were finally abolished by decisions of the highest state
6 authorities, and what existed later on were Executive Boards.
7 That's what I can say about that level of authorities.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is it -- about the payment of salaries by the
9 municipality authorities rather than by the ministry, is it -- would it
10 be in your line of question to ask why they did so? Why the
11 municipalities did pay salaries? Where normally I would say it's not a
12 natural thing to do, for authorities to pay things they don't have to
14 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means I will.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: You are going to ask that?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Go on.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Bajagic, please tell me, when you said Executive Boards, did
20 you mean the Executive Boards as the executive bodies of the
21 Municipal Assemblies or something else?
22 A. I meant the executive bodies of the Municipal Assemblies.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 You heard the question of His Honour Judge Delvoie. What, in
25 your opinion or as a result of your survey, was the reason for the fact
1 that the salaries for members of the SJBs were paid by local authorities
2 rather than the central authorities, as it should be under the law, as
3 you said?
4 A. Without going into everything that characterises the functioning
5 of the MUP of the Serb Republic in 1992, it was not only the matter of
6 salaries, but many other matters concerning the functioning of SJBs. The
7 executive bodies of the municipalities tried to deal with them, which, as
8 I said, is not in compliance with the Law on Home Affairs. My conclusion
9 is that the municipal authorities tried to exert influence, unlawful and
10 unconstitutional influence, on SJBs and other local authorities. In
11 other words, Crisis Staffs at municipal level tried to influence the work
12 of the SJBs to a very high extent.
13 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, may I just intervene. Regarding the
14 transcript at page 12, line 24, it's translated as: "... is not in
15 compliance with the Law on Home Affairs." I wonder if that was meant to
16 be "Internal Affairs" because that's the term we've always been using.
17 And I want to be sure there's not some other law about home affairs that
18 we haven't heard about.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, no. What the witness says was
20 Internal Affairs.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: But then, Mr. Bajagic, if this is some sort of
22 conflict between the municipal and territorial or the state level, I
23 would expect that the ministry would also pay the salaries and that the
24 people would have been paid two times.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Or, rather, I didn't deal with
1 the matter of paying out salaries to members of the MUP separately. I
2 didn't focus on that topic in my expert report. But if we are talking
3 about this, we must bear in mind the territorial fragmentation of the
4 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.
5 Very often, especially in the first six months, it was impossible
6 to have communication even by courier between the ministry and the -- all
7 the territorial units, from the CSBs down to the SJBs and police
8 stations. In such a situation, to my mind, there should again be some
9 way of exchanging information about that or some sort of approval of the
10 ministry to the Executive Boards to pay salaries. We don't see
11 Mr. Stakic referring to any sort of communication with the MUP, possibly
12 making a proposal or launching an initiative, which would be his right
13 under Article 27 of the law. But instead, the Executive Board passed
14 this decision independently, without consulting anyone.
15 This is what I can say.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: But then the basic situation was that without the
17 municipality taking care of it, people wouldn't have been paid, which
18 makes the situation, rather than a conflict between the central and the
19 regional level, another kind of situation by which the municipality took
20 care of something the ministry couldn't take care of. And wouldn't that
21 mean that they must have been communicating somehow to know whether the
22 salaries were paid or not?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that anybody received
24 double salaries at the time, both from the municipal bodies and from the
25 ministry. I suppose, with a high degree of certainty, that all employees
1 did receive salaries but possibly with some delay on the ground. I
2 haven't found a document stating that anybody received their salary from
3 two sources. The MUP certainly took care of its members, the MUP
4 headquarters, I mean. But for these very problems, the salaries arrived
5 at the lowest organisational level with delay.
6 That's what I can offer by way of explanation.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you mentioned the establishment of
10 war-time commissions. I'll show you a document from tab 5, 65 ter 443D1.
11 A. I apologise, could you repeat which tab it is?
12 Q. Tab 5.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Q. This is a decision of the Presidency.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the second
17 Q. We see Radovan Karadzic's name in the signature block; he was
18 president of the Presidency. The document is dated 10 June. On page 1,
19 we saw that it's a decision about the establishment of
20 war-time commissions in municipalities during the imminent threat of war
21 or the state of war.
22 Could you please comment Article 2 briefly, then Articles 5 and 6
23 of this document.
24 A. Having spoken about the names of the executive authorities in the
25 municipalities of the Serb Republic of BH as of the beginning of the war
1 and the introduction of the state of the imminent threat of war, I said
2 that they were first called Crisis Staffs, then War Presidencies and
3 finally war commissions. This is a decision, and its a document signed
4 by the president of the Presidency, Radovan Karadzic, on the
5 10th of June, 1992. It's a decision on the establishment of
6 war commissions in the municipalities of the Serb Republic of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At the level of each municipality, as we see in
8 Article 2, they shall consist of a state commissioner and four members
9 from the ranks of the most influential citizens within the Crisis Staff,
10 the economy, and the ruling party.
11 Article 5 of this document reads: "On the day when the
12 war commissions are constituted, they will supersede Crisis Staffs ..."
13 And Article 6 of this decision, could we please see it? The
14 decision on the establishment of War Presidencies is abolished. That
15 decision was adopted on 31 May. Which means that only ten days later,
16 ten days after the decision to establish War Presidencies, this decision
17 to abolish both the Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies was taken, and it
18 was decided to establish war commissions.
19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, if you know, whether in the former organs of
20 authority, territorial organs, republican commissioners were involved in
22 A. What do you mean specifically?
23 Q. Sorry about that. As for the Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies,
24 did they include the republican commissioner as well?
25 A. No. Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies functioned only at the
1 level of local government. There were only representatives of the local
2 government there. It's only from the 10th of June onwards, when the
3 decision was made to establish war commissioners from the republican
4 level, it was envisaged to send commissioners who would, together with
5 those most prominent members at local level, the four of them, would
6 exercise executive authority in a municipality, in a way.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document in this
8 form is not an exhibit yet. We have a version of this document with an
9 identical text, I must say, in our law library and it is L65. I don't
10 know whether the Trial Chamber believes it is necessary to have this
11 document admitted as well because it has a seal and the signature of the
12 president of the Presidency. I leave the matter to the Trial Chamber,
13 whatever you deem appropriate.
14 JUDGE HALL: Could you assist me, Mr. Zecevic. When you say the
15 document with the identical text is in the law library, what's the
16 difference between -- was there a --
17 MR. ZECEVIC: It's -- it was -- it is in the law library because
18 it has been printed in the Official Gazette. That is the only reason.
19 This is the original decision, and what we have in the law library is a
20 reprint of that decision in the Official Gazette.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, I understand.
22 MR. HANNIS: That's just what I was going to say, Your Honour.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
25 MR. HANNIS: That's what I was going so say. L65 is the
1 newspaper edition of the Official Gazette version of the same document.
2 I have no objection. The contents are the same.
3 JUDGE HALL: I don't know that we need both. We have it in the
4 law library already. That's ...
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't think we need both; I was just --
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thanks.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: -- trying to get the assistance from the
8 Trial Chamber. And, of course, the other position of the Office of the
10 Q. Mr. Bajagic, I'm going to show you the next document. That is
11 tab 12; 65 ter number is 474D1.
12 Mr. Bajagic, this is another document that is not referred to in
13 the footnotes of your report, but I have most certainly shown it to you
14 during your proofing and you are familiar with the document. These are
15 minutes from a joint session of the Presidency of the Serb Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Government of the Serb Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina held on the 1st of July, and we see who the attendees
18 are: The president of the Presidency is there, the speaker of the
19 Assembly, the prime minister, and some ministers as well. What I am
20 particularly interested in is page 5, the last paragraph. I would like
21 to hear your comment, if any, with regard to that.
22 A. If I understood you correctly, it is the paragraph that starts
23 with the words [B/C/S spoken], "furthermore," "in addition to that."
24 Bearing in mind what is mentioned here as a conclusion, it is stated that
25 the members of the Presidency and the Government of the Serb Republic of
1 BH --
2 MR. HANNIS: I apologise.
3 Your Honour, may I intervene at this moment. I just want to
4 indicate that I have an objection to the witness commenting on this
5 particular document. It's the minutes -- purported to be the minutes of
6 a joint meeting of the government and the Presidency. However, there's
7 no stamp, there's no number at the beginning of this document. There's
8 no seal. It's typewritten. I'm not sure if it's complete or official.
9 In addition, this witness is a police expert, and the subject matter of
10 this paragraph does not appear to pertain to police matters.
11 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, first of all, a number of --
13 Office of the Prosecutor already admitted exhibits as well as some of
14 Defence exhibits already admitted in this case which are the minutes of
15 the meetings of the Presidency, of the extended Presidency, of the
16 government, or the joint meetings between the Presidency and the
17 government have been already admitted. None of them has any signature or
18 any stamp, which is only normal because it's the -- it's the minutes.
19 JUDGE HALL: Could we deal with the second part of the objection
20 first which may make the first part irrelevant.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay, okay. Your Honours, the witness commented,
22 and I can give a reference if you would bear with me, but maybe you will
23 recall when I explain. The witness explained in his expert report the
24 situation about -- and yesterday, as a matter of fact, during the -- at
25 the very end of his testimony -- end of session yesterday, about the fact
1 that there has been two particular periods in 1992 concerning the
2 constitutional settings of Republika Srpska. Namely, the first period
3 until September 1992 and then the amendments to the constitution have
4 been introduced and then the situation changed as so-called, let's call
5 it the second period.
6 Now, this paragraph over here directly talks about this -- about
7 these facts, and that is why I think that the witness can give comment on
8 this, Your Honours, because it's a part of his expert report.
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes, but I could see the argument about the document
10 itself. What I am not clear on, and I think that this is what I
11 understand Mr. Hannis' intervention to be, what makes the witness who is
12 at present on the stand any more competent to comment on this than
13 anybody else picking up the document and reading it?
14 MR. ZECEVIC: It doesn't.
15 MR. HANNIS: In addition, Your Honour, my additional objection is
16 that this is a document that should have been shown to Dr. Djeric,
17 Milan Trbojevic, or Momcilo Mandic, who are all listed as being present
18 at this meeting and you who have all been here and testified in this
19 case. And as far as I know, it was not shown to any of those three.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I really have a problem with this
21 objection. First of all, if I had this document, I would have surely
22 shown it to these witnesses which Mr. Hannis has mentioned. Of course.
23 There is no -- there should be no doubt why should I be withholding the
24 document which is actually in my favour from the Office of the
25 Prosecutor or --
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, I don't know that we need a response to
2 that particular objection, because again, as with an earlier observation
3 that Mr. Hannis made, this is a matter for argument at some later stage.
4 So I don't know that you need to respond specifically to that.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.
6 JUDGE HALL: But I come back to the question of the document in
7 relation to this witness.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the only nexus I see between this witness and
9 this document is the fact that the witness, as expert, talks in his
10 report, and I can -- if you bear with me two more minutes, I will give
11 you the specific references in his expert report where he talks about
12 this specific situation in the Republika Srpska in the context which,
13 according to the witness and his expert opinion, does have a very
14 significant impact on the functioning of the Ministry of the Interior.
15 MR. HANNIS: But, Your Honour, he can't bootstrap in this
16 document that way by the fact that he talked about it in his expert
17 report. We've objected to his expert report on the grounds that many of
18 the subjects he talks about are outside the scope of his expertise. He's
19 been called as a police expert, not an expert on the government or the
20 constitution or the interpretation of the laws. And now he's trying to
21 get him to be allowed to testify as an expert on the matters that we say
22 were not proffered as his area of expertise and where -- which it hasn't
23 been shown he has the requisite expertise to make such a comment.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE HALL: Without anticipating the ultimate decision that the
1 Chamber would make as to whether this witness is deemed competent to
2 speak to matters outside of the confines of him being a "police expert,"
3 which the Chamber has already accepted, we would allow the question to be
4 asked as Mr. Zecevic has asked it in as much as the -- as the document
5 has, and we take Mr. Zecevic at his word, been referred to in the
6 witness's report.
7 But Mr. Zecevic, as I said, this is without prejudice to the
8 ultimate decision that the Chamber will take as to whether we will accept
9 that portion of the witness's purported expertise.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: I fully understand that, Your Honours. Thank you
11 very much. Just for the record, it's paragraph 222 of the expert report
12 where he is dealing with this matter.
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hannis, you have a third observation?
14 MR. HANNIS: Sorry, Your Honour, I was just going to ask if I
15 could have a reference, and ...
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Bajagic, I had put a question to you, you started answering.
18 Could you please continue your answer, please. Thank you.
19 A. One of the conclusions of this joint session of the Presidency
20 and government is as stated in this paragraph, that it is indispensable
21 to centralise authority as much as possible. I believe that it refers to
22 the Serb Republic of BH, and I link that to the decision of the
23 10th of June and the establishment of war commissions and war
24 commissioners vis-ā-vis each and every municipality.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I have a further objection
1 regarding this now upon reviewing the transcript. At page 17, line 23,
2 Mr. Zecevic said:
3 "Mr. Bajagic, this is another document that's not referred to in
4 the footnotes of your report, but I have most certainly shown it to you
5 during your proofing ..."
6 If he's shown it to him in his proofing and it's not in his
7 report, it should have been in his proofing note that he gave to us, and
8 he didn't. That's another reason I object to using this document with
9 this witness at this time.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I provided the proofing note, and I
11 can probably read where I said that among others, witness will be able to
12 comment on a number of documents which are not a part of his footnote.
13 And then Mr. Hannis asked me what documents do I have in mind on our
14 65 ter list or the announced documents, and I specifically said announced
15 document, announced documents. That the witness can comment on the
16 announced documents. And this is announced document, as you know, it's
17 tab number 12.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you give us your comment --
19 JUDGE HALL: Just a moment.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry.
21 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Judge Hall said just a
22 moment ago, at page 21, line 10:
23 "Without anticipating the ultimate decision the Chamber would
24 make about whether this witness is deemed competent ... we would allow
25 the question to be asked as Mr. Zecevic has asked it in as much as the
1 document has, and we take Mr. Zecevic at his word, been referred to in
2 the witness's report."
3 The document has not been referred to in his report.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: But, Mr. Hannis, Mr. Zecevic never said that. He
5 said he referred to the situation. But it is confusing, I admit.
6 JUDGE HALL: We move on, Mr. Zecevic. We -- obviously the number
7 of things that Mr. Hannis has flagged means that you must move carefully.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
9 Q. [Interpretation] I have only one question: Do you have any
10 comment on the last sentence of this paragraph on page 5?
11 A. A conclusion was to reconsider the position of the Serbian
12 autonomous region and the necessity for certain changes to the
13 constitutional system of the Serb Republic of BH. I know that as a
14 result an initiative was launched and finally new amendments were adopted
15 to the Constitution of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in
17 Q. When you say amendments to the Constitution of the Serb Republic
18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, can you please look at document 44, your footnote
19 236.2 in conjunction with paragraph 223. That's document L86.
20 Sir, is this the Official Gazette that contains the amendments
21 that you have just mentioned?
22 A. Yes. These amendments were published in this particular
23 Official Gazette.
24 Q. The amendments are dated what, according to this?
25 A. The decision to promulgate these amendments was adopted by the
1 Assembly of the Republika Srpska on the 14th of September, 1992.
2 Q. The previous document, can you remember which date it had? And
3 I'm referring to the minutes of the joint session of the government and
4 the Presidency.
5 A. Yes, that was 10th of July, 1992.
6 Q. Thank you. Sir --
7 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I thought that was the 1st of July.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, you said 10th of July. Can you please look again at
10 document tab 12, 474D1.
11 A. No, the 1st of July. But you called up a number of documents
12 from July and that is the reason why I made this mistake. So it was the
13 1st of July, 1992.
14 Q. Sir, can you -- but let me ask you this first: Do you know if a
15 state organ in May of 1992 requested the Crisis Staffs to be abolished?
16 A. I believe that in the course of the analysis of the document I
17 had an opportunity to see something to that effect, but I don't remember
18 exactly which state organ was in question. I'm sure I saw that kind of
19 initiative, but I cannot remember any details now.
20 Q. If I were to tell you that the Government of the Republika Srpska
21 was that body, would that --
22 MR. HANNIS: Objection. That's leading. The witness says he
23 can't remember which, and now he's telling him which one it is.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis, I am trying to refresh
25 the witness's memory. This document is anyway already in evidence.
1 Therefore, there is no dispute whatsoever. And we already commented on
2 it several times.
3 Q. Sir, bearing in mind your expert report, specifically paragraphs
4 220, 221, 222, 223, 228, can you give us a kind of summary of your
5 opinion that would help us to understand what kind of standpoint you took
6 in these specific paragraphs? Briefly, please.
7 A. The Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina ever since the
8 promulgation of the constitution in March of 1992 until the
9 aforementioned constitutional amendment already had within its system
10 autonomous regions and Serbian autonomous district. In view of the
11 situation on the ground in the first half of the year, at least up until
12 July, we can see that the central organ of authority in the
13 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had difficulties to operate in
14 compliance with the law and the constitution. The original constitution
15 stipulates that the territory of the Serbian republic was unified, but it
16 is said in the law that these autonomous region districts would be
17 recognised within the first six months of the functioning of the
18 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. Sir, can you please slow down because obviously you're not
20 understood properly. When you said that the autonomous regions in
21 compliance with the constitutional law were to be recognised or, I don't
22 know which specific term you used, can you please say what you
23 specifically had in mind? And can you please speak slowly in order to
24 allow the interpreters to interpret everything that you say.
25 A. All the rules and regulations were designed with the aim to have,
1 as of September 1992, the Serbian autonomous region and the
2 Serbian autonomous districts on the course of abolishment. So from
3 September 1992, the legal system of the Serbian Republic of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not recognise any longer the Serbian autonomous
5 regions and autonomous districts.
6 I think that would be the crux of the matter and my response.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, it's time for the break.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bajagic, you wanted to ask a question?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, while I was perusing the
12 binder that I have in front of me, I just tore a piece of paper, and I
13 just wanted to glue it before we start the next session.
14 JUDGE HALL: So we resume in 20 minutes.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Is the headphone situation a bit better now?
21 A. I can only hear you as you speak but not through the earphones.
22 Q. You'll be assisted.
23 Can you hear me now? We are close enough to speak as we are, but
24 is it fine now?
25 A. Yes, I can hear you through the earphones now.
1 Q. Mr. Bajagic, subparagraph 3 bears the headline of your expert
2 report MUP in times of an imminent threat of war and war. Specifically
3 239, paragraph 239, details the legal provisions and regulations which I
4 suppose you thought were important.
5 Can you please comment on the paragraph.
6 A. On the first day of my testimony, I spoke of the relevant legal
7 provisions important for the workings of all the state agencies in the
8 Serbian Republic of BH, and I mentioned a whole variety of legislation
9 including the constitution as well as some bylaws and laws which were
10 adopted at the time of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
11 As I state in paragraph 239 of my expert report, these include
12 the Law on the All People's Defence of the SFRY, the rules of the army of
13 the SFRY in part, and the strategy of the All People's Defence and Social
14 Self-Protection. The Constitution of the SRBH as well as all the
15 system-related laws which were taken on for the purposes of
16 Republika Srpska envisaged that in addition to this legislation, also in
17 force would be the laws of the SFRY, if necessary, and where these are
18 not contrary to the Constitution of the SRBH.
19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, for the record I want to indicate the
20 Prosecution's ongoing objection to this witness, who's a police expert,
21 testifying about these matters which appear to relate to the
22 constitution, the Law on All People's Defence, and other matters which we
23 say are beyond his area of expertise. There's nothing to indicate in his
24 CV or his work history that, I haven't even seen, he did his mandatory
25 military service. So we say this is subject matter outside the scope of
1 his expertise and would like to have on the record our continuing
3 MR. ZECEVIC: May I continue, Your Honours?
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please. For the record, Mr. Hannis's objection
5 is noted.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Sir, can we have your comment on paragraph 253 of your report and
8 footnote 275. In other words, paragraphs 252, 253, and footnote 275. If
9 we can have your brief comments on these.
10 A. Bearing in mind the fact that the Law on the All People's Defence
11 of the SFRY and the strategy of ONO and DSZ were in force within the
12 legal framework of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
13 Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 was able to engage in certain activities in accordance with these laws.
15 In paragraph 252 of my report, I invoked an order issued by the
16 minister of the interior wherein he, in keeping with the laws in force
17 and the decision of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, declaring a state of an imminent threat of war in the
19 Serbian republic, ordered that all the authorised officials of the
20 Ministry of the Interior should be organised into war units for the
21 purposes of defending the areas of the Serbian Republic of the BH.
22 Furthermore, in paragraph 253, I go on to analyse the order, and
23 what I highlight in particular is item 3 of that order, which reads:
24 "In conducting combat activities, the units of the
25 Ministry of the Interior shall be subordinated to the command of the
1 armed forces, but the units of the ministry shall be under the direct
2 command of employees or members of the ministry."
3 As we can see, these two paragraphs deal with this general
4 statement of mine and with the order issued by the
5 Ministry of the Interior.
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I could make an intervention in the
7 transcript. At page 29, line 3, it says:
8 "In conducting combat activities, the units of the
9 Ministry ... shall be subordinated ..."
10 I note in the report, the English translation, at paragraph 253
11 at page 95, translates it as: "While carrying out combat operations."
12 So it's important to the Prosecution if we can have a
13 clarification from CLSS either now from the interpreters in the booth or
14 officially in writing later on as to whether or not the term in Serbian
15 means combat activities or combat operations, because it may become
16 important later on to know which it is.
17 JUDGE HALL: So the appropriate request would be made. But I
18 confess, Mr. Hannis, that but for your intervention, I would have myself
19 considered the terms as interchangeable. But you may have an argument,
20 but we'll see.
21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, in order to assist the Honourable Chamber and my learned
24 friend Mr. Hannis, let's have a look at the document which is behind
25 tab 55. As we said, it's your footnote 275, and the document is 1D446.
1 Yes, go ahead.
2 A. Yes, it's in these two paragraphs 252 and 253 that I invoked the
3 document you've just shown me.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have item 7 shown, please.
6 Item 7 and 8 of the document.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let me first put a question to you. In paragraph 253 of your
10 paper, you say, in the third sentence - I suppose this is an error - you
11 say in the third line of what should be item 3 of point 7, I suppose.
12 A. Yes, yes. Precisely so. In the third sentence of item -- just
13 as you've put it now.
14 Q. [Microphone not activated]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Bajagic, you've commented on this paragraph in your report,
18 and we have it there. What I'm particularly interested in is hearing
19 your explanation of item 8, paragraphs 1 and 2.
20 A. Item 8 of the order, as we can see, addresses the performance of
21 regular duties and activities of the Ministry of the Interior and its
22 members, and states that the provisions of the Law on Internal Affairs
23 and other regulations in force of the Serbian republic must be strictly
24 adhered to in the performance of these duties.
25 So it all has to do with the performance of duties and activities
1 of the Ministry of the Interior which fall within its purview as defined
2 by the law; whereas, in the last and penultimate lines it is stated that
3 in military activities, military regulations and rules should be
4 enforced. In other words, in such situations where members of the
5 Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska participate in military
6 activities, that military rules and regulations shall be applicable to
7 them, rather than the rules that would normally apply to them when they
8 discharge their regular duties.
9 In the second part of item 8 it is stated that any violation of
10 regulations and issued orders shall be subject to severe punishment and
11 result in appropriate disciplinary and criminal sanctions.
12 Q. Thank you. Can we have your comments on paragraph 255 of your
13 report in connection with what you've just told us.
14 A. Paragraph 255, which relates to a number of paragraphs that I've
15 already discussed based on the order we've just discussed and the laws in
16 effect, I concluded that members of the Ministry of the Interior in the
17 relevant period which took part in combat activities together with the
18 army had to be subordinated to the relevant senior officer or command in
19 the territory where the combat activities were carried out.
20 Of course, what I also analyse here is the fact that it is said
21 that they would be under direct command of an official of the
22 Ministry of the Interior. Now, the fact that officials of the
23 Ministry of the Interior were duty-bound to act in an organised fashion,
24 duty-bound by the laws in effect, regardless of the tasks placed before
25 them, and that somebody had to take them to the command to which they
1 were being re-subordinated. Up until the moment when a unit of the
2 Ministry of the Interior arrived within the area of responsibility where
3 military activities were carried out with their respective superior and
4 until such time as they report to the commanding officer in that area,
5 from that point on they are all re-subordinated to the military command
6 and from that moment they become conscripts, rather than officials or
7 members, of the Ministry of the Interior.
8 In other words, for as long as they are being re-subordinated,
9 they are treated as conscripts and must abide by all the valid military
10 laws and regulations. And it is in that sense that a broad explanation
11 was provided on the issue in this paragraph.
12 Q. At the point in time when members of the MUP are re-subordinated
13 to the army and for the duration of their re-subordination, do they --
14 are they divested of the powers that they normally have as authorised
16 A. From the moment they are re-subordinated up until the moment they
17 return to their home MUP units, in other words, during that time they are
18 re-subordinated to the military command, in that period of time they do
19 not have the capacity of authorised officials; rather, they are under the
20 command of military organs.
21 Q. You say that they are not there in the capacity of authorised
22 officials. For the duration of their re-subordination, they also do not
23 have the obligations and duties that they normally have whilst working
24 within the Ministry of the Interior; is that right?
25 A. I think that this conclusion could be drawn from my earlier
1 comments. They do not have the obligations and duties that they have
2 when discharging peacetime activities. So, number one, they don't have
3 the duties and obligations that arise from the remit of the
4 Ministry of the Interior; and, second, they do not have these inherent
5 duties and obligations to perform them.
6 And this clearly follows from the order that I referred to in my
7 expert report.
8 Q. Could you please just slow down a bit.
9 A. I do apologise.
10 Q. You will have to repeat your answer because it's quite unclear
11 because of course they could not follow what you were saying.
12 So, while they are re-subordinated, do the members of the MUP
13 have duties and powers that belong to them on the basis of their work, I
14 mean, in their capacity of employees of Ministry of the Interior and that
15 belong to them on the basis of the Law on Internal Affairs? Just answer
16 slowly, please.
17 A. Members of the Ministry of the Interior do not have these powers,
18 duties, and responsibilities on the basis of the Law on Internal Affairs
19 in all situations when they are subordinated to a military command. So
20 then the Law on Internal Affairs does not apply to them; rather, it is
21 only legal regulations.
22 Q. You say legal regulations. What regulations do you mean?
23 A. Well, I most certainly mean the Law on Defence, the
24 Law on the Army, and other legal documents that are in force in the
25 military system.
1 Q. You meant military legal regulations; right?
2 A. Yes. Those that regulate that entire subject matter that has to
3 do with members of the armed forces.
4 Q. Sir, let us try to illustrate this so that we would be done with
5 explaining this issue once and for all. And it's a rather controversial
7 Members of the Ministry of the Interior, while they are
8 re-subordinated to the military, do they have the authority to detain,
9 arrest, a person?
10 A. Members of the Ministry of the Interior, while they are
11 subordinated, do not have the authority to take such measures.
12 Q. Members of the Ministry of the Interior, when they carry out
13 their regular tasks in accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs, do
14 they have such authority then?
15 A. When members of the Ministry of the Interior carry out their
16 regular tasks which belong to the purview of the
17 Ministry of the Interior, then, among other powers, they have the powers
18 that you just referred to.
19 Q. When they exercise these regular powers and authority that they
20 have - I think that you have already spoken about this, but please remind
21 us once again: Do they have the right to use force, including in some
22 cases the use of fire-arms, in accordance with the
23 Law on Internal Affairs?
24 A. Just like members of any police force in the world, the members
25 of the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska in that period of
1 time and in accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs had the right,
2 according to law, to use an entire set of such instruments of force, that
3 is to say when all legal requirements are met, including the right to use
5 Q. In accordance with their regular duties and responsibilities and
6 powers in line with the Law on Internal Affairs, do members of the
7 Ministry of the Interior have the duty and obligation to go after a
8 perpetrator of a crime once they have learned of the commission of that
10 A. But of course. One of the duties of the Ministry of the Interior
11 is to prevent and control all forms of crime, so they have that duty as
12 well, to pursue persons who commit crimes and ultimately bring them to
14 Q. If such a member of the Ministry of the Interior, with all these
15 powers that you have explained to us just now that he or she has within
16 his own regular duties, rights, and responsibilities, is re-subordinated
17 to the army, and while he is re-subordinated to the army he sees that a
18 crime is being committed, is it the duty of that individual to act then
19 in accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs and the powers vested in
20 him on the basis of that law or not?
21 A. Such a member of the Ministry of the Interior does not have the
22 right to exercise the powers that are derived from the
23 Law on Internal Affairs. He is then re-subordinated. And therefore
24 while he is re-subordinated he has lost these powers and does not have
25 the right to apply them in such situations.
1 Q. From that point of view, a member of the ministry who is
2 re-subordinated to the army and while he is re-subordinated to the army,
3 while combat operations are underway, in your view is he fully equal to
4 other members of the military and the armed forces?
5 A. He is fully equal to all military conscripts, or, rather, members
6 of the armed forces, in terms of rights and responsibilities and duties.
7 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to this document just briefly, the
8 one that's in front of us. That is your tab 55. I hope you still have
9 it in front of you. We have commented upon paragraphs 7 and 8; please
10 bear that in mind because of my next question.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: I would like the witness to be shown tab 40.
12 Q. That is your footnote 187.2 [as interpreted], otherwise it is
13 document L, number 1. L001, rather. That is the
14 Law on All People's Defence.
15 I would like to have a look at Article 104, subparagraphs 5
16 and 6.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It we could have it on the monitor,
19 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, can I confirm: The transcript says
20 footnote 187.2. I don't see a reference to --
21 MR. ZECEVIC: 178.2.
22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I am afraid that the English
24 translation that we see is not appropriate. This is the translation of
25 some other law into English. I'll give you the ERN number of that
1 document that I have in Serbian. 0046-1906. The Serbian version is
2 right. Yes, yes. That's the right translation, but we now see
3 Article 106 and we actually need 104.
4 Q. Sir, a moment ago we looked at this order that you referred to in
5 your footnote 275 in relation to your paragraphs 252, 253, and onwards.
6 As we said, it has to do with point 7.
7 Tell me, in your opinion is this order in correlation with
8 Article 104 of the Law on All People's Defence that we see before us?
9 A. I've already said that in the legal system of the Serb Republic
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina the Law on All People's Defence of the SFRY was in
11 force. This is not only in correlation. As a matter of fact, the order
12 that I referred to in that footnote is directly related to Article 104
13 which says that in war time, in times of imminent threat of war and in
14 other emergencies, the police may be used for carrying out combat
15 activities for the armed forces in accordance with the law.
16 Also, the other part of the order is directly related to
17 subparagraph 2, where it says:
18 "During its engagement for combat activities in the armed forces,
19 the police shall be re-subordinated to the officer in charge of the
20 combat activity."
21 That is to say, the unit that that military officer commands.
22 Q. While we still have this law in front of us, I would like to ask
23 you to comment on Article 105 and your paragraph 248.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, before we come to that, I would like
25 to ask -- I would like to ask the expert the following: You said,
1 Mr. Bajagic, when re-subordinated, the police officer stops to be an
2 official -- an authorised official. Stops to be a police officer
3 basically; right? Being an official -- an authorised official is an
4 official capacity, and I suppose that the police officer has to know
5 exactly when this official capacity of his stops and when it starts
6 again. So my question is: How does that happen? How does the police
7 officer know that now he is not a police officer anymore, or he has not
8 the capacities of such a position? And how -- and what tells him that as
9 from this moment on he is again a police officer?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I give a somewhat broader
11 illustration. A unit of the Ministry of the Interior gets an order to
12 travel, if it's a case of travel, and to report to a military officer.
13 From that moment onwards, they are subordinated to him. The officer who
14 was in charge of the unit that will be re-subordinated in its entirety
15 will probably inform every member of the ministry, and as authorised
16 officials they probably learn of that beforehand. They have to learn of
17 all situations when they can exercise their authority and their powers.
18 When a person is first employed with the Ministry of the Interior, he or
19 she becomes familiar with their rights and responsibilities. So every
20 member of the Ministry of the Interior as soon as he arrives and as soon
21 as his immediate officer re-subordinates himself and his entire unit to a
22 military officer, then the said person knows that he does not have the
23 rights and responsibilities that he had under the Law on Internal Affairs
24 until they go back to that organisational unit from where they had left
25 when they became re-subordinated to a particular military unit.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Bajagic, I asked you to comment on paragraph 248 of your
4 report, of your research, in connection with Article 105 of the
5 Law on All People's Defence.
6 A. As I was analysing the strategy of All People's Defence and
7 Social Self-Protection and in connection with the
8 Law on All People's Defence, as I stated in paragraph 248, I observed an
9 interesting fact. Let me just state before that the two laws implied
10 that the armed forces of the SFRY at the time were constituted by the
11 army and the Territorial Defence. The interesting fact that I observed,
12 and which is defined also by Article 105 of the Law on People's Defence,
13 is that in the event of an imminent threat of war and in other
14 emergencies, the duties of maintaining public law and order as well as
15 other activities pertaining to the field of social self-protection may
16 also be performed by the Territorial Defence.
17 Therefore, under the law, the Territorial Defence is empowered to
18 carry out some specific tasks in such circumstances which would normally,
19 in peacetime, be carried out by the Ministry of the Interior.
20 I hope that my explanation was sufficient.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, before you move on, if I could have a
23 clarification. The transcript says it was a comment on paragraph 248 in
24 connection with Article 105, and in English my paragraph 248 is talking
25 about the strategy of the ONO. Is that correct? So it's the strategy on
1 All People's Defence as opposed to the Law on All People's Defence?
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Perhaps the witness can answer.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Can you explain the relationship between the
4 Law on All People's Defence and the strategy of All People's Defence?
5 A. Well, the strategy of All People's Defence and
6 Social Self-Protection is fully within the spirit and meaning of the
7 Law on All People's Defence. Article 105 of the law regulates the
8 matters that I've just referred to, which matters are repeated at page 58
9 of the document entitled, "Strategy of All People's Defence." In other
10 words, the strategy paper has merely reiterated the norms and constructs
11 put in place by the Law on the All People's Defence.
12 Q. Perhaps this would be the right moment to go back to an issue or,
13 rather, a document, and we'd like to have your comments on it. It's
14 tab 21. The document number is 1D257. [Microphone not activated]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Sorry.
18 Q. [Interpretation] It's a dispatch from the MUP of the
19 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina dated the 8th of April, 1992,
20 signed by O. Jasarevic. It is addressed to all and related to the
21 dispatch from the Ministry of National Defence of the Socialist Republic
22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the 5th of April.
23 Can you comment on the document, please.
24 A. The document also defines the issue of subordination in general
25 terms. However, in relation to the Law on the All People's Defence and
1 strategy, it is quite the inverse, quite the opposite, because the law
2 states that police units are to be subordinated to military officers;
3 whereas this particular document places it quite in the inverse, that all
4 the forces should be subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior, and
5 it's referring to the public security stations. Not only they, but all
6 those who have anything do with the ministry in any way, including the
7 category of volunteers and other conscripts.
8 In other words, the order such as this one is in violation of all
9 the legal provisions, because none of the laws envisage that any forces
10 may be subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior; rather, it is quite
11 the opposite, that the members of the MUP and the MUP itself may be
12 subordinated to armed forces.
13 In my view, this is quite a surprising document. The conclusion
14 that I can draw from this is that, generally speaking, the Ministry of
15 the Interior, the central authority in Sarajevo, because we are talking
16 about the 8th of April, is used to make armed forces. So the armed
17 forces are made out of the Ministry of the Interior. That's the
18 conclusion that I can draw on this document.
19 Q. I have a couple of questions on this. Sir, we were able to see
20 the relevant legal provisions that you mentioned in your report and among
21 them was the Law on the Ministry of the Interior of the
22 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. If I'm not mistaken, yesterday
23 we analysed the Law of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from
24 1990 and the Law on Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska or
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1992.
1 In your view, does the Law of the Socialist Republic of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning the issue of Internal Affairs contain any
3 sort of legal basis that would provide the order such as this one that we
4 have before us legality?
5 A. What I'm telling you is not an assumption. I'm quite certain
6 that the Law on Internal Affairs of the Socialist Republic of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1990 did not envisage situations such as this one
8 and did not confer any powers for this course of action to be taken. In
9 that context, this specific order is completely unlawful in terms of this
10 particular law and all the other legislation that was in force in the
11 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. Sir, do you have any knowledge about the work -- or, rather, do
13 you have any knowledge arising from the research that you made for this
14 report that in the territory of the Socialist Federal Republic of
15 Yugoslavia there were cases where, quite inversely, as you put it, armed
16 formations were subordinated to the police? Do you know of any such
17 cases? And if you do, tell us what you know.
18 A. But of course. In the first part of my expert report, there was
19 a dispatch from the SJB Bratunac which was cited in this expert report
20 which I compared with the situation in Croatia, in the
21 Republic of Croatia, in 1990 and 1991. As I was reviewing a multitude of
22 documents for the purposes of this report and in general as I was
23 researching contemporary security systems in Europe and worldwide, I know
24 that the National Guards Corps, as an armed formation, emerged outside of
25 the legal framework of the Republic of Croatia and yet became part of the
1 organisational structure of the Ministry of the Interior of the
2 Republic of Croatia as the security system in Croatia was being set up on
3 its recognition of independence internationally. So it became part of
4 the Ministry of the Interior as a force that was created completely
5 outside of it, and this was a gradual process within the
6 Republic of Croatia.
7 Q. [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I'm sorry.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Let us now go back to tab 40; 178.2 is the
12 footnote, and it's document L001. The Law on All People's Defence.
13 Articles 104, 105. I'd like you to help us if you can, Mr. Bajagic, to
14 explain paragraph 2 of Article 104, which reads -- in particular what I'd
15 like you to specify is the authorised official in charge of combat
16 activity. I know that this is outside the scope of your expertise, but
17 perhaps you can be of assistance.
18 MR. HANNIS: Well, having heard that concession, I want to put on
19 the record my objection to having him comment on it.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In that case, I'll show you document 23, which is 1D406.
22 A. Yes. May I?
23 Q. Pause there, please. Document 23, tab 23.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2.
25 Q. This is a document of the 1st Krajina Corps dated the
1 1st July, 1992, which is entitled, "Determination of Areas of
2 Responsibility Order." It's signed by General Momir Talic.
3 I'm interested in the reference to the police in the penultimate
4 paragraph. Can we have your comments on it.
5 A. This order of the command of the 1st Krajina Corps says that in
6 carrying out combat activities, all the police special forces shall be
7 placed under the command of the commander of the area who will decide on
8 how to employ them or engage them. So this is part and parcel of the
9 order and is fully consistent with the other documents that we looked at,
10 namely the Law on All People's Defence and the strategy of ONO and DSZ.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown
13 document 14. 65 ter -- or, rather, 1D409. I think it's been MFI'd.
14 Q. Sir, what we see here is coming from the command of the
15 1st Battalion of the Serbian army, Osmaci, the 5th of November, 1992.
16 It's an order signed by commander Bosko Djuricic. It reads that:
17 "Due to the serious situation on the front line, until further
18 notice the Osmaci civilian police will not perform duties at the
19 check-point or any other type of assignments except at a front line
21 Based on what I have just read to you, can you draw any collusion
22 whatsoever as to whether here we have a case of re-subordination of the
23 police to the army in line with the rules and regulations that we had
24 just seen a minute ago or not?
25 A. We see in this document once again that the civilian police,
1 i.e., members of the ministry, are being placed under the command of a
2 platoon commander probably in order to be engaged in combat assignments.
3 So basically we are facing here a case of re-subordination and they are
4 given a totally different set of tasks under the platoon commander's
6 Q. Let us now move on to a different subject. Sir, paragraph 312, I
7 believe we mentioned it earlier. 312, 314, and 316.
8 A. Yes. So from paragraph 312 onwards through a number of the
9 paragraphs that follow, I addressed the issue of certain provisions of
10 the internal organisation of the Republican Secretariat for
11 Internal Affairs of the Socialist Republic of B&H from 1990, which in the
12 course of 1992 was in force and applied to the Ministry of the Interior
13 of the Serbian Republic of BH.
14 In a number of paragraphs, I specifically dealt with the area
15 relating to the tasks of road safety. And having analysed the set of
16 rules from 1990, I realised that from the top of the ministry all the way
17 down to the very bottom, that is to say, SJB via CSB, there were specific
18 organisational units that were in charge of planning, organisation, and
19 implementation of the tasks that have to do with road safety in the
20 broadest of terms.
21 So I recognised that within security services centres there were
22 special police stations dedicated to road safety, and this set of rules
23 says that at the level of the public security service, as one of the main
24 ministry departments, there was a separate section dedicated to road
25 safety. This is what I commented on in the paragraphs mentioned above.
1 Q. Mr. Bajagic, in your opinion, concerning these members of the
2 Ministry of the Interior who were involved in very specific tasks such as
3 road safety and similar, were the rules on re-subordination applied to
4 them as well in line with the law and pursuant to the order issued on the
5 15th of May, 1992?
6 A. Yes, provided they find themselves in a situation in which they
7 have to carry tasks in a co-ordinated action, and within the system of
8 re-subordination, to a military unit. In other words, regardless of what
9 kind of organisational unit we are talking about, what kind of tasks
10 members of the MUP perform in peacetime, none of them was ever exempt
11 from the possibility of re-subordination. While they were carrying out
12 co-ordinated actions in 1992, they had to abide by the rules of the
13 relevant ministry.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we haven't had an
15 afternoon session for a long time; if you would be kind to remind me,
16 when do we have to take the second break?
17 JUDGE HALL: Yes, at 5.20. But if this is a convenient point, we
18 could take the break now.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: It is, Your Honours. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if I could, just before the witness is
25 brought in, I wanted to put two things on the record. Concerning my
1 continuing objection regarding this witness on certain matters, I just
2 wanted to bring to your attention a couple of items.
3 He testified as an expert in the Popovic case. And on
4 October 9th, 2008, at transcript page 26889 in that case, he was
5 addressing the Court and said:
6 "My expert report has to do with the scope of authority the
7 Ministry of the Interior. I'm not a lawyer by profession and I'm not
8 competent to study any details that have to do with criminal law or any
9 other body of law, for that matter. I can only share with you what I
10 know about certain provisions on disciplinary measures in the
11 Law on Internal Affairs. However, I do not dare delve any deeper than
12 that since I believe I'm not sufficiently competent."
13 He also said, at page -- transcript page 26898, when Judge Kwon
14 asked this question:
15 "What do you mean by normal circumstances, under normal
16 circumstances? For example, in special circumstances such as the case of
17 resubordination, is that police officer tried to be -- is to be tried by
18 the military court or by the civilian court?"
19 Answer from Mr. Bajagic:
20 "If we are talking about resubordination, we said that they no
21 longer have a police authority, they are regarded as members of the army
22 and I believe they [sic] would be military courts who would be in charge
23 of such MUP members."
24 Judge Kwon:
25 "Do you think you can fine the reference for your statement in
1 the rules or the laws?"
2 "A. I did not analyse any documents of the sort. I did not deal
3 with the structures or [sic] court or criminal law in my report, but I'm
4 sure that there are documents but I wouldn't know anything about them, I
5 wouldn't be able to quote any."
6 And just one more. At page 26901:
7 "I can't answer competently to your two questions. Yourself,
8 Your Honour, have noticed that your questions are rather broad and I am
9 really not competent to deal with anything that has to do anything with
10 the system of courts and criminal responsibility."
11 He goes on to say, at line 14:
12 "I analysed the police and everything else until the moment of
13 resubordination. At the moment when Mr. Borovcanin was resubordinated, I
14 did not go on analysing his responsibility because it falls under the
15 domain of some rules and regulations that exist in the army. I know the
16 army has its own courts, but I really never dealt with the details
18 Based on that, Your Honour, we would again ask you to limit this
19 witness into going into areas beyond his field of expertise.
20 And finally, the second matter I wanted to address with you
21 before the end of the day, before we begin cross-examination: We still
22 have the matter pending regarding the Defence's submission concerning
23 Christian Nielsen. And before I start my cross-examination, I would
24 request that you make a decision on that, because it affects what I do on
25 cross-examination. If there's still some lingering matter on that, then
1 I may have to address issues with this witness about Christian Nielsen
2 and his report that otherwise I would forego.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, first and foremost, there is quite a
4 significant difference between the scope of the expert testimony in
5 Borovcanin and here. That's one thing.
6 The second thing, the second thing is that this particular
7 testimony is very much limited to situation in 1992. The situation in
8 1995 which was dealt with in the Popovic case is quite a different matter
9 altogether, because in the meantime there has been changes of laws which
10 I would gladly go through with the witness if you want me to, but I don't
11 think that's relevant. But now Mr. Hannis's comments are actually
12 relying to the situation which is in 1995 and not in 1992, and I don't
13 really see a basis for this objection, therefore.
14 JUDGE HALL: It seems to me that the -- of course the Chamber
15 remains very much alive to the basic objection the Prosecution has to
16 the -- as to the scope within which this witness can testify as an
17 expert. But although in none of his responses did I understand
18 Mr. Zecevic to articulate it in this way, it seems to me that one of the
19 practical difficulties is -- looking at the report in its entirety, is,
20 as it were, navigating between the -- because of this subordination
21 business, between the military situation and the police situation. All
22 that means is that -- from my point of view, is that when the Chamber
23 comes to make the decision, as it must, as to the regard or the -- that
24 it has and the reliance it would place on this witness's testimony --
25 expert, if in the Chamber's view -- well, in the -- anything that he says
1 which the Chamber finds to fall completely beyond the pale of his
2 expertise would, of necessity, have to be disregarded. So it's an
3 exercise which can't be avoided, and that's the only solution that
4 strikes me that's open.
5 Yes, could we have the witness back, please.
6 Sorry, on the Nielsen matter, Mr. Hannis, we are not unaware of
7 the urgency of that.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Just one thing I would like to raise while we are
9 waiting. We just received today, after we entered the courtroom, the
10 mail by the Office of the Prosecutor announcing additional documents for
11 cross-examination of this witness. Now, of course I understand that
12 there is -- there is a need to amend the list, but the way how this was
13 done, particularly stating it may also use any document referred to in
14 Bajagic expert report, any document referred to in Christian Nielsen
15 expert report, all RS government sessions of 1992, all RS Presidency
16 meetings' minutes, plus any documents used by Stanisic Defence, and so on
17 and so on. I don't -- I honestly don't think that is the standard that
18 we followed during the Office of the Prosecutor case.
19 We were supposed to list all the documents in the table and
20 provide with the ERN numbers or whatever, 1D or exhibit numbers, to the
21 Office of the Prosecutor, to the Trial Chamber. I'm just making an
22 observation on this because I think it would be only fair that we have
23 the very same standard for both parties in this case. Thank you.
24 JUDGE HALL: I haven't seen the communication in question. But
25 looking -- I suppose it means they were being extremely careful or
1 extremely lazy, one or the other.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MR. HANNIS: I plead guilty to being both, actually, Your Honour.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: May I continue, Your Honours?
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, we have an hour left for today.
8 Your subparagraph 5, entitled "Rights, Duties, and Responsibilities of
9 the Minister of the Interior", these are paragraphs 335 through 352. In
10 these paragraphs you state the rights and duties, and I have no special
11 reason to comment on that. Additionally, I believe it's sufficiently
12 clear and very transparently explained. But there is a number of
13 documents in your footnotes that you cite, and I have selected some
14 additional documents about the same subject matter that is dealt with in
15 some documents that you cited. At this point of the examination, I would
16 like to go through these with you.
17 Please go to tab 53, and your footnote is 399. That's linked
18 with your paragraph 342. It's P4 --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: P546.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Tell me, Mr. Bajagic, what's the importance of a timely
22 information for the work of the Ministry of the Interior, in your
24 A. The issue of information is very important for the activities and
25 the functioning of both the ministry headquarters and all its
1 organisational units. And I mean both ways; from the headquarters to the
2 lowest organisational units, and the other way, from the lowest
3 organisational units, through the CSBs, to the individual administrations
4 and the ministry headquarters.
5 Q. Thank you. The document that we see here, does it deal with
6 these matters?
7 A. Yes. As we can see, this is an order which is one of the
8 possible types of documents that the minister or the ministry
9 headquarters can send to other organisational units. The entire order is
10 about establishing as good a communication system as possible for it to
11 be used for information purposes. All CSBs and SJBs are given orders
12 about the provision and installation of telephones and the submission of
13 the telephone numbers to the ministry headquarters. All that for the
14 purpose of improving communication between the ministry headquarters and
15 the territorial organisational units.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
18 tab 52, which is P545.
19 Q. This document is not cited in the footnotes of your report, but
20 please to comment on it briefly. What is it about?
21 A. This dispatch signed by the minister of the interior is also
22 about information. The organisational units mentioned as addressees,
23 that is the CSBs, are warned that they are duty-bound to submit a daily
24 bulletin by a certain time, bulletin about the events of that particular
25 day. So this dispatch is about sending or forwarding information.
1 Moreover, it is mentioned in this dispatch that the CSB chiefs
2 are duty-bound to inform the lower-ranking organisational units about
3 these matters? It means that all chiefs down to the SJB centre -- down
4 to the SJB level must be acquainted with their duty to submit information
5 about the events in their territory.
6 Q. Let me digress a little now. Please take a look at your
7 footnote 13. That's 1D78. It's a document that you commented on
8 repeatedly, and I believe that we did so yesterday as well.
9 Do you remember this document?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. We've already analysed it. What I'm interested in now is the
12 last but one paragraph of the document. That's under tab 24; I apologise
13 for not mentioning that earlier.
14 Yesterday when we spoke about the division of the MUP, we spoke
15 about this, about the establishment of a federal MUP, as it were, and so
16 on. I'm especially interested in your comment about the last but one
17 paragraph of this document. It starts with: "Also due attention ..."
18 A. This information originated from the collegium of the Ministry of
19 the Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina held on the
20 1st of April, 1992. The paragraph you referred to says that at this
21 collegium meeting due attention has been paid to the financing of the
22 newly-established ministry, and the ministry in question is the
23 Ministry of the Interior of the Serb republic, which funding shall not be
24 below the existing level.
25 Probably this ministry and its members will be funded in the same
1 way as was the case with regard to the same ministry of the
2 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 A system of electronic data processing is also mentioned here.
4 This is something that's done for the entire ministry, and also the --
5 the school or training institution for MUP members, which is very
6 important. We can see from this text that much attention was paid at
7 this meeting to the functioning of the newly-established Ministry of the
8 Interior of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Q. Could you please explain the following: Due attention has been
10 paid to the further function and co-ordination of some joint activities
11 and services such as the ELP, the system of communications, the schools,
12 et cetera. That's what it says here. In your opinion, when this -- when
13 you read a joint services, as it says here, what exactly is meant by
15 A. The Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the newly-established Ministry of the Interior of
17 the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina should have some joint services,
18 among others, a school for training. That school had for decades
19 functioned as the training centre to Vrace in Sarajevo, for
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, just one moment, please.
22 Mr. Bajagic, I go back to the previous paragraph and your answer
23 to that. You said, "funded in the same way." My question is: Funding
24 by whom? If we read this, what is meant here?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When this dispatch was being
1 drafted, that is, on the 1st of April, 1992, we can only speak about one
2 budget and that is the budget of the Socialist Republic of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Probably that single budget of the
4 Socialist Republic of BH must contain some earmarked funds for the
5 functions of the newly-established ministry.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. That's all for the moment.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, apart from the school you have just
9 mentioned and the issue of funding, which is certainly important, one of
10 the joint services was meant to be the communications system; is that
11 your understanding too?
12 A. Yes. The communications system and some other things which
13 aren't specified here. But most certainly the system of communications
14 and electronic data processing. So this entire system should have been a
15 joint one.
16 Q. While you were working on your expert report and preparing for
17 your research, were you able to establish that any of these joint
18 services took off the ground? Did this funding ever function in --
19 between the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
20 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?
21 A. Everything mentioned in this dispatch, and it had to be
22 harmonised to become a single system, did not really function after the
23 1st of April. The school wasn't used by both MUPs, nor was a single
24 communications service set up.
25 Q. We have seen from these documents that sometime in late April
1 faxes were requested and so on. While you were preparing for your
2 research, were you able to assess to what extent the communications
3 system in the MUP of the RS was functional, at least indirectly, based on
4 the documents you studied?
5 A. I had the opportunity to see a number of documents that deal with
6 this very issue, and I was able to conclude that the MUP of the
7 Serb Republic of BH, when it comes to information and communications, had
8 to work under very difficult conditions. Many documents show that it
9 wasn't possible to go about these things as considered normal, under
10 normal circumstances. The ministry headquarters, the CSBs, and in some
11 situations the communication between the CSB and its SJBs was disrupted
12 and difficult, so the general situation reflected on that aspect too.
13 Q. Mr. Bajagic, when did the establishment of the MUP of
14 Republika Srpska in fact begin?
15 A. The Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina was de jure constituted by the relevant law which came
17 into force on the 31st of March, 1992. And as for the factual situation,
18 the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of BH, under very
19 difficult circumstances, only began to work in early April 1992, without
20 equipment and materiel that were necessary.
21 Therefore, one could say that the means that the ministry
22 headquarters or the Ministry of the Serbian Republic of BH were left in
23 Sarajevo and that the ministry headquarters therefore found itself in a
24 rather complex and difficult situation considering everything that is
25 necessary for a ministry to become fully functional.
1 Q. Mr. Bajagic, did you reach this conclusion while doing the
2 research relating to the project while you were writing your expert
3 report, that is to say, the report you have submitted to us here?
4 A. Yes. This is a conclusion that imposed itself as a natural one.
5 Once we consider my overall responsibility to study the functioning and
6 organisation of the Ministry of the Interior, and I really drew such a
7 conclusion at the time while I was analysing specific documents and also
8 when I had an overview of everything that is included in my expert
9 report, there were countless moments when I reached the conclusion during
10 the analysis of documents that were available to me. At such moments, I
11 became convinced of these facts and I came to such a conclusion.
12 Q. Thank you. I would now show you a document which is under
13 tab 54. It's your footnote 396. 65 ter 5D1. Mr. Bajagic, this is one
14 of your documents from your footnote relating, as we have seen, to
15 paragraphs 341 and 342 of your report. Could you just briefly comment on
16 this document for us, please.
17 A. We see from this document that the headquarters of the ministry
18 specifically, but like in countless other situations, addresses with this
19 act all organisational units on the ground about urgent submission of
20 information, in this case the number and form or type of weapons, also
21 communications equipment, number and type of motor vehicles, and all
22 other materiel and technical equipment. My conclusion would be that in
23 this case the ministry headquarters reacted because it did not have daily
24 communication and perhaps did not have answers to instructions that had
25 already been issued, therefore it once again insisted on the necessity to
1 send the information listed in this dispatch.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are any objections, I
4 would propose that this document be admitted.
5 MR. HANNIS: No objection.
6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1D537
8 [Realtime transcript read in error "357"].
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I will show you another document linked with this one just
11 because it is curious, in my own view at least. It's tab 81, and the
12 document is 47D1. I said as a matter of curiosity because ...
13 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I was just interjecting because I wanted
14 to confirm the Exhibit number. My transcript says 1D357, and I thought
15 we were already at a higher range.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I heard 537. I think the Registrar read "537."
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it should be 1D537.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: I guess we are all tired at the end of the day, so
20 these mistakes happen.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, the previous document we looked at
22 was issued on the 20th of April. This one dates from December 1992. And
23 could you please give us a brief commentary.
24 A. Considering the time-period, or, rather, the dates when the
25 previous dispatch was sent and the date of this document, this is really
1 a matter of curiosity because more than half a year has passed and the
2 ministry headquarters once again felt the need to send a dispatch
3 concerning the very same issues. So this is once again a request to
4 submit the list of all available materiel and technical equipment and a
5 report on the amount of confiscated valuables and so on. So in spite of
6 a rather long period, the ministry headquarters probably, as can be
7 concluded, did not have ordered records, did not have feedback from the
8 lowest organisational units, and once again had to send out a dispatch of
9 this kind.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are any objections, I
12 would propose that this document be admitted into evidence as well.
13 MR. HANNIS: No objection.
14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 1D538.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Just a moment.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, just one moment, please.
18 Mr. Bajagic, the previous document was a dispatch from the
19 minister in the beginning of his functioning as a minister of the
20 interior of Republika Srpska; yes? And this one is at the end of the
21 first year of his functioning as such, right, at the end of the calendar
22 year, I mean; right? What --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Precisely so.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: What -- on what is your conclusion based that
25 there is a link between the two in that way that this December dispatch
1 shows that the April dispatch had not the effect the minister wanted it
2 to have? Does this dispatch show that there was no sufficient response
3 to the April one?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we review these two documents,
5 we can draw multiple conclusions. It is certain that the system of
6 internal communication and reporting about significant issues was
7 difficult, and I have already said so. Of course, or, rather, probably,
8 in some situations there was even no reaction of the kind that the
9 ministry headquarters expected from certain organisational units on the
10 ground. But both documents show that the system of information was
11 functioning with difficulties.
12 I don't know how else I could judge the situation, considering
13 the dates on which the one and the other dispatches were sent. It is
14 even not important whether the issues raised are exactly the same and
15 also the necessity to report about these issue, but we can see that
16 essentially the communication is not what could be expected, that is to
17 say perfect, for such an important state administration organ as a
18 Ministry of the Interior is.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, obviously the content of the dispatches are
20 not really the same; there is a significant other issue at stake here in
21 the December one. But as far as the, let's say, the inventory of
22 technical materiel is concerned, couldn't I just conclude that the April
23 one is a kind of starting inventory and this is a
24 end-of-the-year inventory, nothing else?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, of course.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I rather understand the dispatch
3 that we see on the screen now, dated the 13th of December, as an effort
4 to collect all the relevant information from the ground so that only then
5 the administration charged with that at the ministry headquarters could
6 make the annual analysis of the situation concerning the equipment and
7 materiel that the ministry has in all its sections and departments.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Bajagic, did the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska
11 in Bosnia and Herzegovina and also the Ministry of the Interior of the
12 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina have an administration for
13 materiel and finances?
14 A. Yes, we saw that from the chart which we had an occasion to see
15 here, and also from the law and rule-book on the organisation of the
16 ministry from 1990 which was still in force both for the MUP of
17 Republika Srpska during 1992, that there was an administration for
18 financial matters which was a part of the public security service.
19 Q. Mr. Bajagic, as a rule, I mean, as it should be, the materiel and
20 technical equipment in the Ministry of the Interior, are they to be
21 obtained through central supply system or in some other way?
22 A. In the Ministry of the Interior in particular, as one of the most
23 sensitive state administration organs, the procurement of materiel and
24 technical equipment necessary for the functioning of the ministry is
25 always carried out in a centralised manner, and the administration which
1 we mentioned always has to monitor that.
2 Q. When you say always and it's always the administration that is in
3 charge of that, do you mean as a rule or generally speaking always, even
4 during war time?
5 A. I think that this is the rule. As a rule and according to the
6 rules, the finance administration should be in charge of that.
7 Q. In case it is not so regulated, the centralisation of the
8 procurement of materiel and technical equipment, could it happen that one
9 organisational unit buys one kind of devices, communication devices or
10 equipment, and another a different kind, and then perhaps it would not be
11 possible for them to communicate between each other?
12 A. Under normal circumstances, that is not possible. Of course, one
13 should take into account that it is impossible for the MUP organisational
14 units which are outside the ministry headquarters, that is to say they
15 are territorially divided, that they should have their own assets and
16 their own accounts.
17 It is always something that has to be taken care of in these
18 units that the funds for the procurement of materiel and technical
19 equipment should be used in a legal manner, probably as regulated by
20 relevant decisions and documents. But it's practically impossible that
21 one organisational unit should buy one communication system and another
22 organisational unit a different system. In such a case, the system of
23 communication would not function because it wouldn't be compatible.
24 Q. Thank you. Now that we are discussing this, Mr. Bajagic, I
25 believe that in several places throughout your report you concluded that
1 due to the situation on the ground -- let me just find the relevant
2 paragraphs, please. Perhaps you will be able to help me. You concluded
3 that due to the situation on the ground, for a number of reasons, we have
4 discussed some of them today, the Ministry of the Interior could not
5 function as envisaged and in accordance with the law. For example, 257,
6 and so on. But there are several instances where this is discussed.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I have to ask you whether what you told us now about
9 centralised procurement and so on perhaps contradicts what you claim in
10 your report. I'm not sure if you're following me.
11 A. I understand that the Ministry of the Interior was working under
12 difficult conditions, and I often stated in my report what the problems
13 were and what were the reasons for such a situation. As for the issue of
14 procurement itself, I said under normal circumstances it should be done
15 in accordance with the principle which I explained, but particularly in
16 my --
17 Q. No, no. Then it was a misunderstanding. I thought that you
18 meant this generally.
19 Mr. Bajagic, we have some time left for today. I would like us
20 to comment upon the fourth part of your expert report, that is to say,
21 disciplinary infractions and criminal responsibility of RS MUP staff in
22 1992. Paragraphs 365 onwards. And particularly the rules on the
23 disciplinary responsibility of employees of the MUP during 1992; that is
24 from 415 through 436. That is to say, practically at the very end of
25 your report.
1 In this section, do you deal with the rules on disciplinary
2 responsibility of employees of the MUP in a war time situation?
3 A. Yes. That's the name of the rules; namely, rules on the
4 disciplinary responsibility of employees of the MUP of the Serb Republic
5 of BH in war. This entered into force on the 19th of May, 1992.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. [Interpretation] You said here what the characteristics were of
11 these instructions, particularly paragraphs 432, 433, 434. So I would
12 like to ask you to clarify for us each and every one of these paragraphs.
13 432, 433, and 434, respectively. If you could give us your comment,
15 A. When we analyse this subject matter and the provisions of the
16 rules on the responsibility of MUP employees in Republika Srpska in war
17 time, we have to bear in mind the fact that it was adopted on the
18 19th of September, 1992. In this relation, ever since its adoption, this
19 was regulated until September and later on, by these rules too, by
20 various regulations of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm
21 primarily referring to the Law on the Internal Organisation of the
22 Republican Secretariat for Internal Affairs of the Socialist Republic of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina because it is only in that, way by cross-referencing
24 and analysing these documents, certain conclusions can be reached.
25 Q. These rules, this set of rules --
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can have it placed on
2 the monitor. It is footnote 397.1. The tab number is 97. 1D54.
3 Q. Sir, in the Ministry of the Socialist Republic of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina there was a system, if I may call it that, of
5 disciplinary commissions?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When I said disciplinary commissions, I meant disciplinary
8 prosecutors and disciplinary commissions.
9 A. Yes, precisely. I think there were 11 such commissions, one in
10 the secretariat, that means the ministry headquarters, and ten such
11 commissions in various centres of the security services.
12 Q. The Law on Internal Affairs of the Socialist Republic of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, we have seen it and we have commented upon it, we saw
14 how similar it is to the Law on Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska. In
15 accordance with that, the Law on Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska,
16 did it envisage the same thing, this system of disciplinary prosecutors
17 and commissions?
18 A. As opposed to the situation that we had in the Ministry of the
20 Q. I am asking you about the law from March 1992. I'm not talking
21 about the rules. I'm talking about the law from March 1992, the Law on
22 Internal Affairs.
23 A. Well, this subject matter was regulated in a different way,
24 because some things that have to do with disciplinary responsibility were
25 completely -- were regulated in a completely different way as compared to
1 the previous period, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. Very well. These rules from September 1992, did they shorten
3 disciplinary proceedings as such?
4 A. The duration of disciplinary proceedings was shortened
5 significantly. At the same time, there was no statute of limitations.
6 So there was less possibility of not having all cases resolved, all that
7 were undergoing this process.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. In paragraph 434, you are also talking about persons who may
13 launch an initiative for starting disciplinary proceedings. Can you give
14 us your comment.
15 A. Yes. This is what my comment would be: According to the Law on
16 Internal Affairs of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, an
17 initiative to initiate disciplinary proceedings could only be launched by
18 high-ranking officials. But the Law on -- of the Serb Republic of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina seriously increased that number, namely that all
20 employees had this right to start disciplinary proceedings.
21 Q. When you say law, you mean the rules, don't you?
22 A. Yes, I apologise. I mean the rules, from September 1992.
23 Q. Tell me, according to these rules, the first-instance
24 disciplinary organ was the head of what?
25 A. The first-instance disciplinary organ was the head of, say, the
1 centre of the security services.
2 Q. And what about the second-instance organ?
3 A. The second-instance disciplinary organ, as I said in
4 paragraph 432, was the minister of the interior.
5 Q. Very well. At the moment when disciplinary proceedings are
6 initiated, is a particular measure imposed on the member of the MUP
7 involved in these disciplinary proceedings?
8 A. The legal regulations that are referred to in this expert report
9 indicate that certain disciplinary measures or, rather, certain measures
10 are envisaged when disciplinary proceedings are initiated. It depends on
11 the gravity of the offence involved.
12 Q. Is one of the measures that you're talking about now suspension?
13 A. Of course. Because that means that a person is completely
14 suspended from the duties a particular member carried out within the
15 ministry until then.
16 Q. In your expert report, paragraph 365, that has to do with
17 disciplinary criminal responsibility, et cetera, I think that in this
18 part -- I'm sorry. I'm going to rephrase. Perhaps you're going to
19 remember where it was that you dealt with this, where you used these
20 documents, where you refer to them in your footnotes.
21 Do you know that in 1992 there were some orders of the Ministry
22 of Republika Srpska whereby a decrease was asked for in the reserve force
23 and to have a different kind of correlation involved between the active
24 duty and the reserve force?
25 A. Of course. There are several dispatches from the ministry
1 headquarters were -- dealt with this matter. You can find that in
2 different footnotes and different paragraphs in my report, and I cannot
3 remember exactly which ones they are right now.
4 Q. Mr. Bajagic, do you remember that while preparing for this
5 research of yours do you remember some decisions or, rather, orders of
6 the ministry whereby all members of the Ministry of the Interior who had
7 criminal records, et cetera, that what was asked for was that something
8 be done about this? If you remember, what was that? What was supposed
9 to be done?
10 A. Yes, there were five or six or even more dispatches that support
11 my statements to that effect made in different paragraphs, and you can
12 see these documents in my footnotes. The ministry headquarters sent
13 orders and other instructions to the organisational units of the MUP
14 throughout the territory. What was unequivocally asked for in these
15 documents was, as one of these dispatches says, was to deal with those
16 members who had possibly committed some criminal offences, not only from
17 the outbreak of the war onwards but also in the previous period, and that
18 such persons be dealt with, that is to say that legal action be taken.
19 What I understand that to mean is to initiate criminal proceedings
20 against them and to expel them from the Ministry of the Interior and also
21 that such persons should urgently be made available to the Army of the
22 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 I don't know if that explanation is sufficient.
24 Q. Yes. I've actually found the paragraph. I'm a bit tired by now,
25 and my colleague helped. It's paragraph 383 --
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, if you're moving on to something else,
2 it's just on --
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm not moving, Your Honours. I have a
4 couple of additional questions. But definitely I will not be able to
5 finish today.
6 JUDGE HALL: So we should take the adjournment at this point.
7 And we are scheduled to resume, I believe, in Courtroom II
8 tomorrow morning at 9.00.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day
12 of May, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.