1 Tuesday, 10 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T.
7 The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to
9 everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution,
11 I'm Tom Hannis along with Gramsci De Fazio and Crispian Smith.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence
14 this morning. Thank you.
15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
16 Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Mr. Stojan Zupljanin's Defence.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 Would the usher please escort the witness back to the stand.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bajagic, good morning to you. We are at the
21 stage where Mr. Zecevic would begin his re-examination and before he does
22 that I would remind you you are still on your oath.
23 WITNESS: MLADEN BAJAGIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bajagic. I have several
4 questions for you today. Yesterday on page 20417 of the transcript, you
5 were asked by Mr. Hannis a question about the public revenue service. Do
6 you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said that you are not an economist and that is quite clear.
9 I'm only interested in one issue. As for the public accounting service
10 in the former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, did it exist
11 in every town, that is to say every municipality in the territory of the
12 former Yugoslavia?
13 A. Yes, from the highest level to the lowest, just as all other
14 institutions. Any organ always existed at the municipal level, including
15 the public accounting service.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bajagic, I will give you P189 in hard copy. It's
17 a document which you commented on yesterday with the OTP.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have P189. Thank you.
19 Q. Sir, before we begin to comment on this document, I would refer
20 you to your paragraph 4 on page 93 which is entitled "MUP prisoners of
21 war and prisoner of war camps." It's paragraph 291 of your expert report
22 and further. Yesterday, you commented on paragraph 293 where you
23 mentioned this document which we see before us now. However, I will ask
24 you to comment briefly on paragraphs 295 and 304 of your report.
25 A. Relating to this document, instructions on the treatment of
1 captured persons, in paragraph 295, I particularly referred to item 18 of
2 these instructions, and I quoted by saying that corps commanders of the
3 Army of the Serbian Republic of the Bosnia-Herzegovina were responsible
4 for accommodating prisoners of war.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just please see page 3 in
6 B/C/S and second page in English on the screen so that we can follow what
7 you are talking about right now.
8 Q. Please go ahead, Mr. Bajagic.
9 A. Considering item 18 of these instructions, I can repeat what I
10 wrote in the particular paragraph in my report, namely that:
11 "The corps commanders of the Army of Serbian Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina shall be responsible for camp organisation and
14 I concluded in my paragraph 295 that it was the military organs
15 who were responsible for the prisoner of war camps rather than the
16 Ministry of the Interior. They were under the jurisdiction of the army
17 rather than the Ministry of the Interior. In connection with that, I
18 referred to the order of the commander of the Army of the Serbian
19 Republic and some other documents which illustrate this by their
21 Q. Thank you. Can you just very briefly comment your paragraph 304?
22 A. In this paragraph I continued to provide illustrations and
23 examples which show that it was Army of Republika Srpska which was in
24 charge of these issues and I referred to a dispatch dated the 17th of
25 June, 1992, which was entitled "Order to raise the combat readiness of
1 the Birac Brigade to the command of the Eastern Bosnian corps." Inter
2 alia, the order provides an estimate from the Main Staff that the
3 Birac Brigade had almost 600 prisoners and that the corps command had not
4 specified a location for the prisoner of war camp at the corps level.
5 Q. Mr. Bajagic, I understand that you are impatient to conclude your
6 testimony but please be so kind as to have some understanding for
7 interpreters and all of us. I cannot follow you in the Serbian language,
8 let alone the interpreters who have to interpret you. Please be patient
9 just a little while longer, we will not dwell on this too long. Please
10 go on.
11 A. From the contents of this order and on the basis of an estimate,
12 as it says, one can see that it was actually the corps command which was
13 responsible for forming prisoner of war camps in the so-called centres
14 for these prisons in the combat operation zone, that is to say in the
15 territory which was covered and for -- which was covered by certain corps
16 and for which the corps was responsible. I discussed it further on in
17 this document on the basis of the documents which I mention at the
18 beginning, including these instructions.
19 Q. As for this order under Article 304 of your report, is it, in
20 your view you, in accordance with item 18 of the previous document which
21 we can see on the screen before us, that is to say the instructions
22 issued by the Ministry of Defence?
23 A. Yes, it directly refers to item 18 of the instructions which we
24 mentioned in the previous paragraphs.
25 Q. Mr. Bajagic, yesterday on page 20382 when you were asked by
1 Mr. Hannis and a suggestion that this document which we see before us now
2 referred primarily to prisoners of war and prisoner of war camps, you
3 answered in the affirmative and then you said in your answer:
4 "However, if you look at the first page of this document,
5 different terms have been used, not just prisoner of war camps, but also
6 collection centres, and this is why this is also included in my report,
7 and all these terms which appear in documents are also mentioned in my
8 expert report."
9 In connection with that, I would like us to comment on item 4 of
10 this document P189. It is on the first page in both versions. Please go
11 ahead but just please be slow, Mr. Bajagic.
12 A. When I answered this question yesterday, I had in mind this very
13 fact. As we can see, item 4 of these instructions uses the term
14 "reception centres," and that was why I mentioned and emphasised that
15 terms that we mentioned in the report are being used. They are to be
16 found in various documents. These instructions are instructions on
17 treatment of prisoners, and item 4 says that captured persons shall be
18 taken to reception centres. Therefore, in the expert report I used
19 various terms.
20 Q. Mr. Bajagic, on the basis of item 4, who determines where a
21 reception centre would be situated?
22 A. As we can see and as the instructions say in item 4, a commanding
23 officer who is a company commander or somebody who is -- who holds an
24 equal or higher position shall determine that before the start of combat
25 activity, so that is the military rank responsible for this issue at the
2 Q. Well, a senior officer with a rank of company commander, does
3 that refer to military personnel or not?
4 A. Of course it refers to military personnel.
5 Q. Sir, in item 2, can you please comment on item 2, or rather,
6 paragraph 2 of item 4?
7 A. It discusses the further procedure that is paragraph 2 of item 4,
8 further treatment of this category of persons. It says that their
9 identity is to be established at the reception centre, and then in an
10 organised manner and under escort they shall be taken to a prison camp.
11 So procedure is further elaborated in the second paragraph, the manner of
12 treating these persons.
13 Q. As for item 4, does it envisage two different institutions, let
14 me put it that way, or not?
15 A. It implies the existence of a reception centre, that's the first
16 possible situation when a person is captured, and it also implies that
17 from reception centres, persons can be sent to prison camps, so it's not
19 Q. Thank you. On the following page in the Serbian version,
20 paragraph 5, I'm interested in the first sentence of the first paragraph
21 of item 5. I would like to hear your comment and then also the second
22 paragraph of the same item. Can you please comment on that for us.
23 A. Item 5 mentions in the first sentence what is meant by a prison
24 camp and also discusses the accommodation conditions which have to be the
25 same as those provided to units billeted in the same area. It also says
1 that conditions shall make allowance for the habits and customs of
2 captured persons.
3 If I understood this properly, I should also comment on the
4 following sentence because that is paragraph 2. It talks about mixed
5 camps in which separate dormitories and sanitation facilities shall be
6 provided for female prisoners. So as I said, item 5 talks about creating
7 certain living conditions in camps and some specific details which are
8 important or specified, such as, for example, the issue of female
10 Q. Mr. Bajagic, does item 5 mention prisoner of war camps or some
11 other type of camp?
12 A. It's clear from the first sentence, prison camps shall be taken
13 to mean --
14 Q. And if I understood properly, what is envisaged here is also what
15 needs to be done when women should happen to be in this prison camps?
16 A. Yes, precisely. It is the obligation to organise separate
17 dormitories and sanitation facilities or, I suppose, conditions.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: I see that Mr. Hannis is on his feet.
19 MR. HANNIS: I had an objection to the form of the question
20 because item 2 of this document makes clear who the captured persons are
21 in the reception centre and these prison camps. Captured persons are
22 members of enemy armed forces which can include females but we are
23 talking about combatants.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I'm not sure I understand the
25 objection. I think this is a submission and the submissions should be, I
1 guess, at the very end of the case when we will give our prospective
2 views on certain documents.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, I agree, but I would then ask you to
4 clarify with the witness the discrepancy that seems to be included in
5 this document, because it is clear from the wording of Article 1 --
6 sorry, Article 2 that this instruction is issued by the army and it is
7 binding upon the armed members of the armed forces of the
8 Republika Srpska and it is designed to treat or to deal with the
9 treatment of captured combatants. And as Mr. Hannis pointed out,
10 combatants may, of course, also include women. But then the question
11 arises with the -- how female civilians to the extent in which they are
12 captured, how they are treated and the larger issue behind this is how
13 civilians who are captured are treated, and one issue or one question
14 that I have is whether this instruction would also cover the treatment of
15 civilian detainees and not only combatants.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Bajagic, you heard the question of Judge Harhoff. I don't
18 want to paraphrase it so well, could you please answer the question
20 A. The entire document, these instructions deal with the captured
21 persons. Item 2 defines that term. Members of enemy armed forces will
22 have surrendered and laid down their arms or have been overpowered and
23 are out of combat, it is very clear, therefore, who this is about.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, Mr. Bajagic, the issue behind all of this is
25 really if you can tell us about the legal framework that was in place at
1 the time in Republika Srpska that covered the treatment of civilians who
2 had been detained.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the chapter where I comment the
4 matters concerning these camps, I cited documents that I had, and these
5 are orders of the Main Staff of the VRS, of the corps, but I didn't make
6 any separate comments about the laws or regulations that deal with this.
7 These laws and regulations aren't present but the one piece of
8 legislation that was the focus of my analysis is the Law on the -- on
9 Internal Affairs, but it doesn't mention this matter. Of course, I
10 analysed this law but also other laws and regulations that are important
11 for the structure and functioning of the MUP, but in those laws and
12 regulations I didn't find anything specific about this. I only studied
13 documents that were able to shed some light on this.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Is your testimony then that as far as the
15 detention of civilians during armed conflict there were no rules?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as these categories of
17 persons are concerned, I mostly cited documents that were created in the
18 system of the VRS, and I also cite other documents as mentioned in the
19 footnotes. In other laws and regulations, I didn't find anything about
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Bajagic, the documents that you have
22 described in chapter 4 in paragraph 291 and the following paragraphs in
23 your report all seem to deal with the rules issued by the Main Staff of
24 the VRS concerning the treatment of prisoners of war, and although you
25 are not a lawyer by training, I believe that you have already shown that
1 you have sufficient knowledge about these things to make a clear
2 distinction between a prisoner of war and civilians. So my question to
3 you again is: Since we have had evidence in this trial about the
4 detention of a large number of civilians and since you are an expert on
5 the MUP, the Court is interested in hearing your testimony about which
6 rules then would apply to the detention of civilians, that is to say, of
7 persons who are not combatants.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As we can see from this whole
9 chapter, everything that has to do with these camps and the very analyses
10 of the footnotes as well as the sources that I cited show that the MUP
11 had no authority over these which means that they were under the direct
12 responsibility of the VRS, all these that we have spoken about. Also in
13 connection with paragraphs 295 and 304.
14 I said that there is nothing special in the laws and regulations
15 that provides for these types of treatment, but as I said yesterday, I
16 analysed such a situation and some are in my report too, namely that the
17 MUP often issued warnings that at local levels there are such situations,
18 and the question was raised and forwarded to the highest levels of the
19 authorities what should be done about it.
20 There were also persons who were in some camps or collection
21 centres or detained without the MUP immediately processing them, so there
22 were such urgent issues at local level but I didn't find a document that
23 shows that this was also in the jurisdiction of the MUP anywhere, in any
24 document. It was the Crisis Staffs that decided about these matters or
25 whatever the executive body of the authorities at local level was called
1 at the time.
2 I referred to dispatches and other documents of the ministry at
3 several places in my report that show the ministry's desire to resolve
4 this issue the way it should be resolved. It was the Crisis Staffs at
5 local level that took care of these matters and were responsible for
7 I hope this was clear.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for this clarification. And forgive me
9 for scratching further into this but you see, the protection of civilians
10 is basically one of the most important functions of the MUP. So we would
11 expect that someone who is an expert in the MUP or on the MUP would also
12 pay some interests into how this function was carried out, even though,
13 as you say, the MUP was not directly involved in the detention of
15 So I realise that you may not be able to tell us out of your
16 expertise just how the Crisis Staffs or the War Presidencies then treated
17 civilians, or, rather, according to which rules or laws or regulations
18 the Crisis Staffs or the War Presidencies handled the detention of
19 civilians. But still, if you have any knowledge about this, even though
20 it may fall outside the strict centre of your expertise, we would be
21 grateful to hear it. And the options that seem logical to me is that
22 either the rules that applied to the prisoners of war issued by the
23 Main Staff of the VRS, either those rules were applied also to civilians
24 by analogy, that's one option. The other option is that civilians were
25 then treated -- detained civilians were then treated according to some
1 other rules. And the third option is that there were no rules at all.
2 Can you give us some indication as to what legal regime that
3 applied to the detention of civilians regardless of who was responsible
4 for it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not analyse this issue in
6 this way in my report, but one thing is sure, in a number of documents
7 that I cite in my expert report, I refer to the fact that the Ministry of
8 the Interior insisted several times that this issue must be resolved,
9 that a legal framework must be set up for treatment of these persons and
10 bearing in mind what was happening in some territories, probably at the
11 level of the local authorities.
12 I found in the dispatches, and I have mentioned some documents of
13 this type here, that the ministry launch an initiative for this issue to
14 be resolved as efficiently as possible. I pointed out that the
15 functioning of the ministry in an integrated manner was very difficult,
16 and in some areas at the local level it was the Crisis Staffs who were
17 dominant. Of course there were problems and there was also this legal
18 vacuum, that is, the absence of laws and regulations providing for the
19 treatment of all categories of persons, namely those categories that
20 cannot be considered captured persons which is a phrase used in these
21 military instructions.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Bajagic, your comment of paragraph 304, the second sentence
25 that begins with the words, "An examination of the conduct of the
1 dispatch." It was about taking care of such persons.
2 A. The dispatch we discussed and that is the preservation of combat
3 readiness of the Birac Brigade --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down a little.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That they were responsible for the
6 establishment of prisoner camps but also centres for displaced persons
7 from combat zones, so everything that happens -- for everything that
8 happens in a combat zone, it's the military organs that are responsible,
9 that is the corps commands.
10 Q. Mr. Bajagic, how do you understand the term "displaced persons"
11 from the zones of combat operations, are they persons who took part in
12 combat operations for the opposing side?
13 A. Well, the term displaced persons denotes civilians, not members
14 of military formations.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bajagic. No more
16 questions, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Bajagic, thank you. Your examination is at an
18 end. You are now released as a witness and we wish you a safe journey
19 back to your home. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, is your next witness ready to come on
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but before that I would like to
25 tender the expert report of Mr. Bajagic. Now, Your Honours, having heard
1 the cross-examination of the -- of my learned friend of yesterday, the
2 Defence is proposing that the Bajagic report be admitted partially,
3 namely that all annexes, 1 to 11, because those are the annexes of the
4 documents that he retyped himself, be taken out of his expert report.
5 So, therefore, his expert report and Annex, 12 which he confirms he
6 authored it himself, be admitted. I have the reference 1D numbers. It's
7 1D063016, that's expert report in Serbian -- in English, I'm sorry. And
8 in Serbian, it's 1D062404. And his updated CV is 1D064993, is the
9 English version, and the Serbian version is 1D064985. And, of course, we
10 will provide the list with the footnotes which are not exhibits in this
11 case at this point together to be admitted with the expert report. Thank
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours will recall that when we found our
14 notice concerning the witness, we objected to certain specific portions
15 of his report. We stand by those objections and, actually, based on his
16 testimony now, it's the Prosecution's position that you should not accept
17 any of his report, not only because of contents, but because of what
18 you've learned about the level of his expertise, his methodology, the
19 kinds of sources he relied on, et cetera. I would like the opportunity
20 to file a written submission detailing this and also because the Defence
21 is proposing to introduce all of the footnoted documents, I need an
22 opportunity to address each of those because they weren't shown to the
23 witness and they weren't discussed. But it's the Prosecution position
24 that a number of those footnoted documents should not admissible for
25 various reasons. There is some question about the source or authenticity
1 of some of them. Many of them, we think, simply aren't relevant. They
2 are in the portion of the report which we say is basically a tu quoque
3 argument and therefore not relevant. So I would respectfully request
4 that Your Honours defer a final decision on whether or not the report
5 gets admitted at all or which portions you are going to admit until
6 you've had an opportunity to review our written submissions.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, with all due respect, the -- I think
8 the purpose of the cross-examination of a party is to challenge precisely
9 the documents based on which the conclusions were made, the conclusions
10 and whatever the statement or actually whatever the position the expert
11 took. So if it wasn't challenged during the cross-examination, Your
12 Honours, it cannot be challenged through some other means by filing a
13 motion to challenge it post facto when the witness left the court and
14 finished his testimony.
15 JUDGE HALL: I don't know whether I misunderstood Mr. Hannis, but
16 I didn't appreciate what he said to be that he would be taking, as it
17 were, a new challenge in his written motion. What I thought he was
18 saying is that he was merely requesting time to organise it in a
19 comprehensible written form and one of the -- I don't want to put words
20 in Mr. Hannis' mouth, nor do I wish to anticipate what he may say in any
21 written motion, but one of the principal planks, as I understand it, is
22 that his challenge to the methodology which he did make in the
23 cross-examination was so that it's so interwoven in the report and that
24 is the basis on which he would take the extreme, for want of a better
25 word, step of submitting that it should be rejected in its entirety. Did
1 I understand you correctly, Mr. Hannis?
2 MR. HANNIS: I'm not sure, and let me make a few comments that
3 hopefully will answer that question. I note looking at the Prosecution's
4 notice regarding the expert, in paragraph 5 at the time we said:
5 "The Prosecution also challenges Dr. Bajagic's entire report, in
6 general, due to his questionable methodology and source documents."
7 So we are already on record as challenging the entire report.
8 And what I was saying here in terms of written submissions, I did
9 want to address some of the specific footnoted documents that are listed
10 as sources for various reasons that I cited, but I did not address each
11 one in cross-examining the witness, partly because you may recall once or
12 twice Judge Harhoff asked me to get to the point, and I don't think
13 anybody wanted me to go through all 495 footnotes and ask him about every
14 one of those documents and some footnotes listed six or seven documents.
15 But I don't want the Defence to be able to sweep in all those documents
16 because I didn't take the time to ask about each and every one because
17 I'm already on record as having objected about the source documents.
18 And if I'm permitted to make a written submission, I will be able
19 to address specifically the ones that I have the most concerns about.
20 And if there's an you issue, the Defence thinks it's unfair I'm doing
21 that way, and I suppose they could make an application to recall
22 Mr. Bajagic to address a specific document. But largely the documents
23 speak for themselves, and I think you can make a judgement once you have
24 seen what we pointed out and what the Defence responds to it.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm even more confused than I was before, I
1 must admit. I understand that Mr. Hannis' principal objection goes for
2 the list of the footnotes, and I think that is a separate issue. We can
3 discuss about the footnotes and the list of the footnotes, but the expert
4 report, I hear that he said that in their submission they were
5 challenging the certain portions of that report.
6 MR. HANNIS: I am sorry, I'll speak one more time and hopefully
7 this will be the last time. We are objecting to the entire report, as I
8 said, partly because of his methodology and what I think showed on his
9 cross-examination, that he does have some bias, that the level of his
10 expertise with regard to his apparent knowledge about certain things in
11 the MUP is not what you might have expected given his work experience,
12 his employment in the MUP, and his degree, and the courses that he
13 teaches. But some rather pedestrian terms and concepts related to the
14 MUP that I think we all have some familiarity with now having sat in this
15 case for as long as we have seemed somewhat strange to him and he seemed
16 somewhat insecure in talking about some of those. So we object to the
17 entire report and to all 12 annexes, including Annex 12. Those are my
18 primary objections. But the footnoted documents include, for example,
19 the book by Mr. Domagoj Margetic, we just don't think that's relevant.
20 We also think given his -- Mr. Margetic's history, that he is too biased
21 and prejudiced source to allow a book that he has written to come into
22 evidence in this case, simply because Mr. Bajagic found that he was a
23 source worthy of reliance upon.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, again Mr. Hannis is making a
25 submission about the -- his understanding of the report and the findings
1 of the expert, and I again emphasise that there is going to be the time
2 for the submissions. Now we are talking about the document that we
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
6 JUDGE HALL: Having heard what counsel have to say, the Chamber
7 is of the view that the -- Mr. Hannis for the Prosecution should be --
8 may be permitted to make submissions on the admissibility of the
9 footnotes only, not the entirety of the report. And, of course, such
10 submissions as are made would invite and necessitate and allow a response
11 from counsel for the Defence. So having regard to the fact that we must
12 await the resolution of that, the basic application as to the
13 admissibility of the report must abide the determination of that
14 supplementary ancillary question.
15 MR. HANNIS: Just so I'm absolutely clear, Your Honour, then,
16 from me, you only want my submissions as to particular footnoted
18 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
19 MR. HANNIS: And I need to add nothing to what we filed in our
20 notice in terms of the approximately 200 paragraphs of the report that
21 which we took objection for various reasons related to them being in the
22 nature of tu quoque, irrelevant, or beyond the scope of his expertise.
23 I'll only --
24 JUDGE HALL: There's your motion and then there's, of course, the
25 cross-examination which you have completed.
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. May I inquire what the time-limit is for
2 filing that?
3 JUDGE HALL: How much time are you asking for?
4 MR. HANNIS: Could I have a week?
5 JUDGE HALL: That appears reasonable, Mr. Hannis.
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
7 Mr. Cvijetic, you were about to rise?
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Just to inform
9 you that we informed the VWS that the witness should be ready at 9.00, so
10 if you believe we should start before the break, I think that the witness
11 is ready. And it is up to you to decide. It is quite all the same to
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL: So could the usher please escort the witness in.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good morning, sir.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you hear me in a language that you understand?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you begin by giving the solemn declaration
21 which the usher is going to hand to you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: STEVO PASALIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, sir. You may be seated.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. The Court thanks you for coming to
4 the Tribunal to give your testimony. You have been called as a
5 demographics expert by counsel for Mr. Stanisic, who you will see to your
6 left, and you are giving testimony, as I said, as an expert.
7 Could I, first of all, ask you to state your name and your date
8 and place of birth.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Stevo Pasalic, born on
10 the 10th of January, 1951, in Vozuca, Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. What is your current
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm full university professor in
14 eastern Sarajevo.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: In which discipline?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Demographics and social geography.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: And where did you have -- where did you complete
18 your education?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will start with primary education
20 which I completed in my birth place, Vozuca, in 1966. After that, I
21 completed teachers college in Travnik in 1970. After that, I completed
22 the academy for pedagogy in Slavonski Brod in 1973. After that, having
23 served the army, as was obligatory, I continued studies at the sciences
24 and mathematics faculty in Novi Sad and I competed my studies in 1979.
25 Immediately after that, I enrolled in masters level post-graduate studies
1 at the sciences, natural sciences and mathematics faculty in Belgrade
2 where I defended my masters thesis on the 13th of April, 1983. After
3 that, my PhD thesis was approved at the natural sciences and mathematics
4 faculty in Sarajevo. But due to the outbreak of the war, I had to file
5 my PhD thesis again, this time at the natural sciences and mathematics
6 faculty in Novi Sad. I defended my thesis on the 20th of March, 1995.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: In Novi Sad?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in Novi Sad.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pasalic, we have received an read your expert
10 report which has been submitted in this trial, and I believe that the
11 side calling you, that is to say the counsel for Mr. Stanisic, has asked
12 for -- could you confirm, Mr. Zecevic, how much time you will need, or
13 Mr. Cvijetic.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we requested ten
15 hours for examining this expert witness. I will not promise firmly like
16 the previous time with Ms. Ewa Tabeau that I will try to make it shorter,
17 but I will try that anyway.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic, we always appreciate the
19 assistance of counsel.
20 And the Prosecution, for cross-examination?
21 MR. Di FAZIO: I've indicated six hours, but like Mr. Cvijetic,
22 I'm hopeful that I might be able do it in a shorter period of time.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: We appreciate that as well of course.
24 So, Mr. Pasalic, as you heard, the side calling you as asked for
25 ten hours, the Prosecution has asked for six hours in cross-examination,
1 and after completion of the Prosecution's cross-examination, the floor
2 will be given back to Mr. Cvijetic for his redirect examination of you.
3 During or after the examinations by the two sides in this trial, the
4 Judges may, at all points, put questions to you directly in order to
5 clarify aspects of your testimony.
6 But tell us, Mr. Pasalic, have you ever testified before this
7 Tribunal before?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: And have you given testimony about your expertise
10 in other courts in the former Yugoslavia?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: So this is the first time that you are giving
13 testimony. In that case, Mr. Pasalic, allow me to just briefly explain
14 to you how the proceedings in this court unfold. Each of our sessions
15 last an hour and a half after which we need to take a break because the
16 tapes for the recordings of the proceedings have to be changed. So every
17 90 minutes we will have a 20-minute break. We begin in the morning at
18 9.00 and we adjourn at a quarter to 2.00 in the afternoon. Since your
19 testimony is going to last over several days, you will then be required
20 to appear before this Chamber at 9.00 in this courtroom for the following
22 Before I give the floor to Mr. Cvijetic, I would only remind you
23 that having made the solemn declaration that you read out in the
24 beginning, you have undertaken to speak the truth and nothing but the
25 truth and only the truth and the whole truth, and I should remind you
1 that there is a severe penalty for providing false or incomplete
2 information to the Chamber. If you do so, you will expose yourself to
3 the risk of being prosecuted for perjury.
4 If you have any questions to us, please do not hesitate to put
5 those questions to us right away and if you have no questions at this
6 point, I think I'll just leave the floor to Mr. Cvijetic. Do you have a
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Mr. Cvijetic, the floor is yours.
10 Examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pasalic, good day once again.
12 A. Good day.
13 Q. Judge Harhoff, so to speak, began the introductory part which is
14 obligatory in such situations because even though your CV was submitted
15 alongside your report, it is useful for you to tell the Trial Chamber
16 something about yourself live. You have already done so, in part, and as
17 for the part which I believe to be relevant and which you have not been
18 asked about, I will just ask you a few additional questions about that.
19 Namely, what was left out is for you to enumerate just briefly
20 where you have been employed up until now and up until the work that you
21 are doing now, employed as a full professor in eastern Sarajevo. Can you
22 just enumerate for us where you have worked up until now.
23 A. Thank you, Mr. Defence attorney, Mr. Cvijetic. I began my career
24 as a teacher in primary school in Zavidovici, in place where I lived from
25 1970 onwards. After that, I taught in secondary schools where I taught
1 statistics and some other economic and geographical subjects. Then I was
2 an expert advisor at the republic pedagogical institute seated in Zenica,
3 and I worked that up until the outbreak of the war. From 1993 onwards, I
4 was senior teaching assistant at the university in eastern Sarajevo, and
5 from 1996, I was assistant professor at the faculty of theology in
6 Banja Luka and at the same time at the university in eastern Sarajevo and
7 at the teachers college in Bijeljina. Between 2001 and 2003, I performed
8 the duty of deputy education minister in the government of
9 Republika Srpska. And in 2004, I was appointed the first president of
10 the republic council for demographic policy. I was appointed by the
11 government of Republika Srpska. Simultaneously, I was appointed as a
12 member of the commission for demographics and statistics of the academy
13 of arts and sciences of Republika Srpska. And since 2008, I was a member
14 of the executive board of the agency for higher education and ensuring
15 the quality of education in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm performing this
16 function to this day.
17 As I told the Judges, I'm professionally engaged at the faculty
18 in eastern Sarajevo as a full professor, and my field of expertise is
19 demographics and social geography.
20 Q. Just to recapitulate, at how many universities are you teaching
21 at this moment?
22 A. I'm fully employed at the university in eastern Sarajevo which
23 has now been integrated in accordance with the Bologna process. But at
24 the same time, I am engaged as a visiting professor at the university in
25 Banja Luka and at the Singidunum University in Belgrade. It's the
1 business faculty from Valjevo which is privately owned. They have all
2 been integrated and organised in accordance with the Bologna Convention
4 Q. All right. You mentioned membership in the executive committee
5 for the agency for the development of higher education and ensuring the
6 quality of education in Bosnia-Herzegovina, does this agency cover all of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina? This is just my question.
8 A. Yes. This is a newly-established agency for the development of
9 higher education ensuring the quality of education in the territory of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and it is part of a network of European agencies for
11 higher education. It is the key agency for monitoring the development of
12 higher education and accrediting high education institutions and
13 licence -- issuing licensing for their study programmes so that they
14 could work in Bosnia-Herzegovina. So this is the most important agency
15 in the field of higher education and it is my pleasure that I'm one of
16 the members of the executive committee of this agency.
17 Q. Professor, does this agency have anything to do with Bologna?
18 You know what I mean when I mention Bologna, I think that everyone knows
19 what this refers to.
20 A. Yes, I'm just waiting for the proper time to start answering.
21 Yes, of course, I think I said that it is part of the network of European
22 agencies, and it's purview is based only on the Bologna process which
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina signed as most other European countries, and now this
24 Bologna convention it being implemented. We are making the first steps.
25 But the agency has the key role in the development of higher education
1 along the Bologna Convention principles.
2 Q. Before the break I only have sufficient time for one additional
3 question. Are you a member of any non-governmental organisations?
4 A. Yes. I'm the president and founder of the centre for population
5 and social research which has been registered at the level of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it is seated in Zvornik where I am residing at
7 the moment.
8 Q. Can you just tell us in one sentence what does your centre do and
9 what is its main purpose, but just be brief?
10 A. If you would like me to say that in one sentence, then, globally
11 speaking, it is the development of civil society in general from the
12 population and demographics aspect, primarily.
13 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you, whether it is related with your
14 main expertise field and profession.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see what the time
16 is, I would move to another topic anyway and it is the time to take the
17 break, I believe.
18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pasalic, although you would have only just
19 started your testimony, the Court would have been sitting since 9.00 and
20 it is time for the first of those breaks to which Judge Harhoff referred
21 when he introduced you. So we would resume in 20 minutes.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pasalic, when I introduced you as a witness
2 earlier today, I failed to mention one matter which is relevant to your
3 testimony, and that is the fact that the Trial Chamber has assessed your
4 curriculum vitae and has studied your report, and on this basis, the
5 Chamber has decided to accept you as an expert witness in demography.
6 The difference between testifying as an expert witness and an ordinary
7 fact witness is that whereas fact witnesses can only testify objectively
8 to the facts that they observed without making any comments about these
9 facts, in contrast to that, expert witnesses are allowed and indeed
10 required to make inferences from the material that they have studied in
11 their expert reports and are also entitled and indeed required to draw
12 conclusions from the facts that you have studied. So these are the
13 conditions under which you will testify here. And maybe I should also
14 add since I see that you are wearing -- that you are using a crutch, that
15 if at any point you need to take a break, you can just ask for that and
16 we will accommodate you.
17 That's all for now. Back to you, Mr. Cvijetic.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, maybe I omitted to say that
19 Mr. Pasalic recently had a -- sustained injuries in a traffic accident
20 and these are the consequences.
21 Q. Mr. Pasalic, I'm going to ask you whether you have any
22 international experience. Did you appear outside the borders of
24 A. Yes. I do have some international experience, of course to the
25 extent the conditions allowed. But I do consider it very important that
1 I took part in some international conferences, mostly about higher
2 education and the Bologna process or some related topics with regard to
4 In October 2001, I attended an international conference in
5 Strasbourg as a representative Bosnia-Herzegovina with
6 Ms. Alamija Tanomic [phoen]. In 2002, I also attended an international
7 conference about higher education in Lisbon, in April, where I was the
8 only representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Let me add immediately that
9 in the framework of these conferences, there was discussion comprising
10 introductory presentations or discussions in which I also took part.
11 Likewise, in 2002, I made an appearance at the Landek [phoen] University
12 in Switzerland - that's a private school - and they had a private
13 education for peace. And I headed the delegation for Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 at that event with Ms. Meliha Alic, who was, until recently, the minister
15 of education in the government of the Federation of BH. After that, I
16 attended a number of international conferences and scientific gatherings
17 mostly in the neighbouring countries such as Serbia or Croatia. So that
18 to this day I have attending about a dozen scientific conferences and I
19 also made presentations there that were published in scientific journals,
20 some of which are on the EC lists and that is very important for
21 university professors.
22 Q. You probably noticed that I and the Trial Chamber, too, are
23 interested in topics from the area of demography. Did you go to these
24 neighbouring countries to discuss demographic matters?
25 A. Yes, certainly, apart from the international conferences about
1 higher education that covered the entire area of higher education and I
2 always placed a special stress on the student population and structure of
3 teaching staff and very few people deal with that. However, that's a
4 matter very important for Bosnia-Herzegovina because the young population
5 has undergone a certain transformation so that our contingents are
6 smaller now.
7 At scientific conferences in neighbouring countries, I took part
8 in such events, both in Serbia and Croatia, and I discussed changes in
9 rural areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I always took a -- singled out a
10 municipality as a reference, in this case Foca; whereas in Serbia, I
11 focused on the problems of the young population, the student population
12 in Republika Srpska. And then there is a number of other works that I
13 classified in accordance with the international APA standards which can
14 be seen from my professional bibliography which is attached.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you have any international appearances planned for
16 this year?
17 A. Yes. There will be a lot of such activity. I consider my
18 appearance here before this Tribunal very important, and I believe, or
19 rather, I see it as a recognition for myself as a professor. But there
20 are also some very serious international scientific congresses that will
21 take place both in Bosnia-Herzegovina and beyond. I primarily refer to
22 Croatia and Serbia, our neighbouring countries, where regularly attend
23 such international conferences, but if I'm invited, I also go to other
24 countries in the region or even beyond.
25 Q. I believe that it was this year or late last year Ms. Ewa Tabeau
1 had a book presentation in Belgrade. Were you invited?
2 A. Yes, I was invited to the event. Unfortunately for
3 health-related reasons, I couldn't attend but I was able to get a copy of
4 Ms. Tabeau's book. I tried to reach the essence of her research in the
5 short time that I have had this book and I think I'll be able to say more
6 about that here. I have studied the works of Ewa Tabeau and some of her
7 co-workers because there are very few works that deal with the processes
8 in the war and in the post-war period in Bosnia-Herzegovina. So that I
9 hope that in due time I will be able to use this information for my own
10 research and publish a similar work as that of Ewa Tabeau, however,
11 somewhat shorter because I don't have such logistic support in the form
12 of institutions, et cetera, for such extensive research.
13 Q. Professor, you have just mentioned something that I wanted to ask
14 you about later, but I'll ask you now. Which authoritative sources from
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina or other countries do acknowledge as authors that
16 deserve attention when it comes to demographic changes and processes in
18 A. I hope I will not be subjective in my answer. It is difficult to
19 be very objective because we all have our personal opinions about these
20 things. However, the most extensive research has so far been done by
21 Ewa Tabeau and her co-workers and the information and documentation
22 centre whose president is Mirsad Tokaca in Sarajevo. And without false
23 modesty, I believe that my works must also be mentioned in this context.
24 They -- their scope is a bit more modest but I couldn't access all
25 sources necessary. However, all these works, including mine, can also be
1 viewed critically.
2 Q. Thank you. Then we have already arrived at your work, so tell us
3 briefly how many books you published, how many papers, and please single
4 out only those that you consider relevant for the Trial Chamber and your
5 work. I made a joke and when I suggested to you that you bring all these
6 to The Hague and then you answered then you would need a truck in that
7 case. So don't use a truck, just single out a few that deal with the
8 area that we are interested in.
9 A. I've so far published nine books, nine books of university
10 significance. However, not all books are meant to be textbooks for
11 students. Some are also meant for the general audience. I can single
12 out two books that are important for the subject matter we are speaking
13 about. I have one of them here, "The Suffering of Serbs and Serb
14 Settlements in Bosnia-Herzegovina," which was published in 1997. I
15 collected data from 1992 up until 1996 and I can state very briefly that
16 after it's publication, in two months, or rather, within two months,
17 eight and a half thousand persons read it online and it was rated as one
18 of the ten top or most-read books on the Internet. The last thing I saw
19 on the Internet is that it's now in 35th place, although it's been more
20 than ten years since its publication.
21 I have since amended a book of similar content which is titled,
22 "The Anthropogenic Reality of the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the
23 Period from 1992 through 2000." And that book was used for my expert
24 report and I also have a copy here. This is as far as books go, but in
25 our work, we -- or rather, as part of my work, we are obliged to take
1 part in scientific conferences and I mention some two dozen papers, most
2 of which deal with demographic matters. There's no need to read them out
3 because you have had the opportunity to see that yourselves. I would
4 just point out the demographic problems of the RS or the problems of
5 natality which is a burning problem in not only Bosnia-Herzegovina but in
6 all of Europe now. And at the conference of the academy of arts and
7 sciences, I made a presentation about the natality and fertility of the
8 young population, and so on.
9 There are also the works that I mentioned that I presented in
10 Serbia and Croatia. These works were very highly ranked. Professional
11 or expert works are targeted at a young or general public, so I don't
12 want to mention any in particular. The most relevant from the area of
13 demography are scientific projects and research projects in which I have
14 so far participated as the leader of some 20 or so projects with -- which
15 were very highly ranked with, say, the Ministry of Science and Technology
16 of Republika Srpska. And you can see in the enclosed bibliography that
17 these projects were very significant.
18 Let me mention that I'm the first head of a project team that
19 deals with the development policy of the RS. That is the first work in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina albeit only one entity that endeavoured to deal with
21 the current demographic problems that are extremely present in
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina even in the post-war period because demographic loss
23 has been great, both during the war and after it. We'll probably get the
24 chance to discuss that. And then there are also some other very
25 significant projects that you will be able to see on the list of my -- my
1 bibliography list.
2 You may have noticed that these works are mostly about the RS
3 entity, but that is because they are public tenders where you apply under
4 a coded name, they don't know who you are in reality, and then the
5 process begins. Very few projects have been done in Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 about this subject matter, so we couldn't apply for seats in these
7 projects. Only recently did I apply through my NGO, I applied for a
8 project about the fertility of the young population in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but we will see what the results of that project will
10 be in the coming period.
11 And then there are also scientific conferences mentioned here. I
12 was the reviewer of some very significant papers that I mentioned in the
13 bibliography and some works from the EC list or from journals that have
14 the so-called SCI index.
15 Q. In the proofing notes, you just noted that a subheading was
16 omitted. We can conclude that you also were a tutor to candidates who
17 were drafting their doctoral theses. That's in section D; am I right?
18 A. Yes, you are. That's on page 79, after section D, published
19 expert papers. The subheading is missing, stating that I was a tutor or
20 co-tutor or member of a commission for the drafting of a masters or
21 doctoral theses.
22 Q. Very well, I'll finish this part with another question. Have you
23 taken part in publish debates or polemics with colleagues, with
24 co-experts? Did you -- did you take part in any confrontation of
25 opinions in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. I'm one of those scientists and researchers or professors who
2 accept such confrontation. Unfortunately, there are few of us in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina who deal with this subject matter, but almost daily I
4 am present in the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina because they invite me to
5 interpret some things that have to do with demographic processes in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I accept these invitations gladly and provide data
7 if they are available to me. Those who have more intensively or in an
8 expert fashion dealt with these matters in the Federation of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina are unfortunately no longer alive, but we still use
10 their expert works. However, there are very few expert confrontations of
11 opinions in the area of demography.
12 Q. In the introductory part of your expert report, and let me state
13 for the Trial Chamber that your work has been filed under 1D062149, and
14 we'll start with the first page after the cover page. Let us first
15 explain how you -- how you came to be commissioned as an expert in this
16 trial. And my specific question to you is when the Stanisic Defence
17 first set up contact with you as an expert for this subject matter?
18 A. I think that initially they called me in around 2007, but it was
19 a very short contact because at the time it was already known that I'm
20 dealing with these issues and that I was perhaps the only one in
21 Republika Srpska. So we had a brief contact about that and then we got
22 in touch again last year when we talked about my possible view of these
23 issues and the possibility of writing an expert report. I gladly
24 accepted that but I offered my own concept the way I see these problems
25 as I know them best, and I said that I would not deal with the issues
1 that I do not really know much about and for which I do not think I'm
2 competent, because I think that would be useful for anyone in these
3 proceedings. So I offered a draft which the Defence accepted, and after
4 that, I accepted to work on the report. We have it here after some
5 methodological changes were applied to it.
6 Q. As for the draft which you offered us, did Defence add anything
7 else as part of your task? Can you remember that?
8 A. I offered my draft to the Defence, but I think that there were
9 some suggests which were given, namely that I should give an overview of
10 the work of Ms. Ewa Tabeau and her associates, which I did in my report,
11 and it's possible that there were some other technical details that were
12 discussed. It was suggested that there should be division into
13 paragraphs because otherwise it looked more like a scholarly publication
14 in accordance with scholarly standards, but it was adjusted to the
15 standards which are used at the Tribunal here, these were the minor
16 suggestions from the Defence. But in the professional sense, in the
17 sense of the field of expertise, the Defence didn't go into that.
18 Q. Did you receive works of Ms. Ewa Tabeau from the Defence, and if
19 so, which documents did you receive?
20 A. I did on two occasions. One of the works is here. They have
21 certain numbers. I'm not sure how I should quote them here but these are
22 works of Ms. Ewa Tabeau and her associates in the Slobodan Milosevic case
23 and Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin case. I studied these works, I
24 received a CD with an audio recording which I listened to. What I
25 managed to get on my own, as I told you, is the book of Ms. Ewa Tabeau,
1 "The War in Numbers: The War in the Former Yugoslavia." It has around
2 1200 pages and I just studied the parts of the book that deal with the
3 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at least up until now.
4 Q. It has been suggested to me that I should ask you to speak a
5 little bit more slowly so that the interpreters will be able to translate
6 everything you say. Just tell me, have you --
7 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, couldn't we have
8 clarification of what was on the CD, please. I mean, it's there in the
9 evidence, but you don't know what was on it. And for it to have meaning,
10 you should know what was -- what the contents were.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That was about to be my question,
12 but Mr. Gramsci was faster.
13 Q. Have you followed the appearances of Ms. Ewa Tabeau before we
14 engaged you in this case as a professional and as a scholar? Did you
15 follow her testimonies before this Tribunal?
16 A. Yes. You know that the proceedings can be followed on the
17 Internet, and I did it even before I was engaged by the Stanisic and
18 Zupljanin Defence. I cannot remember the cases in which she testified
19 that I was aware of, but I had some of that at my disposal and that
20 includes the CD which includes her testimonies which I have listened to.
21 Of course I followed her testimonies because these are problem areas that
22 I find to be very interesting.
23 Q. Just to be specific in answer to the Prosecutor's intervention,
24 the CD has the recording of Ms. Tabeau's testimonies before this Tribunal
25 and you have listened to that; right?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Fine. Professor, I will move on to something else. Please tell
3 me whether demographics as a science has its branches or fields and what
4 would be the branch that you are closest to. But, I apologise, before
5 you answer my question so as to avoid any confusion, please tell the
6 Trial Chamber and everyone else what you have on the desk before you. I
7 think we still owe the explanation. What are the reports that you have
8 in front of you?
9 A. In addition to my own report which I have before me and the
10 report relating to the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, which is before me, I
11 also have my original book, "The Anthropological and Geographical
12 Actuality in Bosnia-Herzegovina." I have the book from which I used
13 statistical data directly while I wrote my report, that's "The Ethnic
14 Composition of the Population of Bosnia-Herzegovina." I also have
15 photocopies of some quotations from two books. "The Population of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina" is one and "The Population of Republika Srpska." I
17 also used valid statistical data from these sources in my report. And,
18 of course, I also have a full list of the census of population of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina according to the ethnic composition which was
20 published in 1995 in Zagreb. If necessary, I will explain what it is;
21 namely, the information concerning Bosnia-Herzegovina have not been
22 published up until that time because of the outbreak of the war. It was
23 only in 1998 that the federal statistics institute published statistical
24 annual journal which includes the data from the publication which was
25 published in 1995 in the Republic of Croatia in Zagreb. It is somewhat
1 absurd for demographers or from our point of view, but due to the war and
2 the circumstances, first we received the data published in another
3 country rather than in Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. This is what I have
4 before me today.
5 Of course I brought some other sources with me, but the majority
6 of the sources that I used was left behind because, as I have explained,
7 it would have been impossible to transport them all to such a distance,
8 especially as my movements are limited so that I would be able to
9 transport such an amount of materials.
10 Q. All right. Thank you. Now I will go back to my question, if you
11 don't remember, I will repeat. Does the demographics as a science have
12 its branches or fields, and which of the fields is perhaps the one
13 closest to your expertise?
14 A. I will try not to talk as when I teach students. Of course
15 demographics is the science on the population and has its own
16 disciplines. But in the territory of the former Yugoslav Republics, we
17 mostly study demographics as a general scientific discipline. There are
18 no so-called narrow scientific fields, such as Ms. Ewa Tabeau is, I
19 think, the statistical demographer, and so on. But within demographics
20 everyone chooses, according to his own preferences, one of the
21 discipline, whether this be the migrations of the population or the
22 dynamics of population change or population policy or history or graphic
23 demographics or a series of other disciplines. And then one focuses in
24 one's papers on these fields, or perhaps it could be vital statistics
25 including the birth-rate and the mortality rate of the population, and so
1 on and so forth.
2 Q. Professor, as for ethnic demographics, is knowledge of that
3 discipline relevant for studying demographics in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. There is ethnic demographics and also ethnology, this is a
5 difference that may be drawn. These are two very important disciplines
6 within demographics as a science, and we have to emphasise both of these
7 when we talk about Bosnia-Herzegovina because this is, from the
8 historical point of view, a multi-ethnic area. The ethnic demographics
9 is a study of people and its placement in one specific area and ethnology
10 also studies people which focuses on customs, culture, and other
11 characteristics of specific peoples. So by the definition, these are
12 very important disciplines for Bosnia-Herzegovina and you can see from my
13 report that an emphasis was placed on ethnodemographic movements and
14 trends in Bosnia-Herzegovina before, during, and after the war. But I
15 suppose we'll have occasion to discuss this in further detail later on.
16 Q. All right. So what characterises the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina
17 as you would define it, as briefly as you can?
18 A. Among the former Yugoslav Republics, Bosnia-Herzegovina has the
19 most complex ethnodemographic characteristics. It is undoubtedly an
20 issue that needs to be dealt with. In addition to the multi-ethnic
21 characteristics of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the three constituent peoples and
22 dozens of ethnic minorities which are precisely listed in the annual
23 publications, this is what characterises Bosnia-Herzegovina. Where
24 within the borders one can single out spaces where there are dominant
25 ethnic groups but also areas where the ethnic groups have been mixed to a
1 great degree. So very often it was figuratively said that in the
2 ethnodemographic sense, the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina is like a leopard
4 Q. Professor, what are the main natural and social factors that
5 influence the changes in the ethnic structure, distribution, and the
6 general characteristics of the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. You can see in my report that I covered the entire 20th century
8 when I discussed the ethnodemographic development in Bosnia-Herzegovina
9 precisely because of the very complex natural and social factors which
10 had an impact on the development of its population throughout the
11 20th century and also now in early 21st century. Namely, the natural
12 factors are really varied. Bosnia-Herzegovina is a predominantly
13 mountainous country, and in the mountain areas the living conditions were
14 very harsh and the population was always subject to migrating, moving to
15 big cities or moving out to neighbouring or third countries which I
16 explained in great detail in my report.
17 What is even more complex are the social conditions in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. From the historical perspective, the peoples of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, if we take into account the history of the country,
20 the historical facts, this is something that has to be taken into account
21 whichever issue one deals with. There were always these migration trends
22 and counter-trends. Generally, in the world migrations have their trends
23 and counter-trends. What does that mean in this case? Serbs or Croats
24 were always focused on the neighbouring countries, that is to say Serbia
25 and Croatia throughout history. As for the Muslims, or now Bosniaks as
1 they are called, they were focused towards Turkey so the area of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina is an emigration area exclusively up until this day.
3 The population has always been moving out because of natural factors and
4 numerous social factors which are historical focused on neighbouring
5 countries, economic factors which are dominant to this day which we have
6 proved through empirical research, some sociological factors, and
7 certainly the ethnodemographic factors which we'll talk more about.
8 I'm willing to elaborate even on the issues as the Trial Chamber
9 has allowed, I believe, which are not covered by the report but which
10 support my arguments about very intense migration movements in the area
11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, the emigration of the population
12 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, their leaving of the area. To a much smaller
13 degree, we have the moving in of people to Bosnia-Herzegovina which is
14 immigration. So we say that the migration saldo is always negative in
15 this area.
16 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting but I
17 just think that you ought to have a clarification or that Mr. Cvijetic
18 ought to seek a clarification and that is on the use of the term
19 "focused." The witness has said that:
20 "Serbs and Croats were always focused on their neighbouring
21 countries, that is to say Serbia and Croatia. And as for the Muslims or
22 now Bosniaks ... they are always focused towards Turkey."
23 Are we to understand that, that the word "focused" there means
24 that they migrate or emigrate to those places? Serbs and Croats go to
25 Serbia and Croatia, and Bosniaks and Muslims go to Turkey. It's
1 important, I think, for us to understand that since the witness is using
2 that terms, and the way I read that passage of evidence, I thought it was
3 a reference to emigrate or migration to those places but it's not clear.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Professor, you have heard the intervention, I will not suggest to
6 you how you should answer. Please explain this. And to ask you
7 directly, which period did you have in mind when you said emigration to
8 Turkey, which historical period did you have in mind?
9 A. Yes. Of course I will do that willingly. I had in mind a longer
10 historical period. I don't directly have in mind the period of the
11 latest war. This is why my report in the first chapter includes the
12 historical or the ethnodemographic section on Bosnia-Herzegovina. These
13 are valid statistical data which I included in my work, namely the
14 percentages which were determined when censuses were carried out that the
15 Serbs would move to Serbia, Croats to Croatia and Muslims in the
16 direction of Turkey, as we said. But the percentages were much smaller
17 than the percentage of Serbs and Croats were who were moving out to the
18 two neighbouring countries, Serbia and Croatia. It is very precisely
19 stated in my works but I thought that we would, during my testimony,
20 reach the specific paragraphs which I am ready to explain and information
21 contained therein. So we'll have an occasion to clarify every paragraph.
22 Whatever I have included in my report I hope that can explain and clarify
23 everything when answering the questions.
24 Q. If I understood you well, the negative migration balance comes
25 from the fact that much greater number leaves an area than is the number
1 of people arriving to the area. Would you please help us, in one
3 A. Yes, you are quite right, but that pertains to Bosnia-Herzegovina
4 in its entirety. Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole has a negative
5 migration balance on average, that's how it was up until the war. In
6 1992, between 13- to 17.000 people more left the area than came in,
7 however this trend continues to this day and I can prove this with
8 official statistical data. Let me be fully clear, I do not use any
9 figures arbitrarily, I rely on the most reliable sources and the most
10 relevant one is this statistical bureau of Bosnia-Herzegovina and other
11 agencies of which there are three.
12 Q. Professor, the frequent wars in Bosnia-Herzegovina did they
13 affect migration of the population in that area?
14 A. Naturally. I would say that that is the key problem for the
15 development of the population Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I will illustrate
16 this with official data. Bosnia and Herzegovina is among the former, or
17 rather, among the former Yugoslav Republic -- had the greatest war
18 losses, which according to some data and all data is based on assessments
19 we cannot have fully accurate data when it comes to war. In the
20 First World War there were 320.000 lives lost and in the Second World War
21 700.000 lives were lost which was directly and indirectly caused by war.
22 If necessary, I can clarify what is considered as war losses,
23 demographic losses, and so on, which is very relevant for the area of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think that this historical context in Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina greatly affected the psychosis and the insecurity that
1 existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina before the war and then when the most
2 intense operations began, that also affected the movement of the
3 population in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I hope we will get to that.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly speak slower.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. We are now on paragraph 9 of your report.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pasalic, the interpreters kindly ask you to
8 speak slowly because they have to interpret and if they don't catch what
9 you say, the Chamber will never know. So please bear in mind that you
10 have to speak slowly and distinctly and do not overlap with questions put
11 to you by counsel from either side. Thank you.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Professor, I'm now on paragraph 9 of your expert report. Would
14 you please turn to that part. Under the table given by you, and this is
15 where you speak about the factors that you just mentioned, you spoke
16 about the political, economic, demographic factors and at the end you
17 mention socio-political factors, do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'd like to know whether these same factors which were in place
20 before the war also affected the war time migration of the population in
22 A. As an illustration, I chose three municipalities, Zavidovici
23 municipality, which is where I lived; that is to say that I directly
24 participated in these events, and this is why I considered it relevant as
25 I'm one of the best placed people to speak about these events. I also
1 included Kljuc municipality and Sanski Most municipality which are all in
2 the indictment in this case.
3 What does statistical data speak of here? We had an official
4 census in 1991 and then we had data for 2009 where we see the assessments
5 coming from the Federal Bureau for Statistics concerning these three
6 municipalities which exist within the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 All of these factors can best be illustrated by using these three
8 municipalities as an example. As you can see, 1991 all three
9 municipalities had greater population than in 2009. Naturally, Serbs
10 moved out, as did Croats, and one could say, well, very well, the
11 Bosniaks remained in that area and this is how this can be explained.
12 However, it's not how it was.
13 Five to 10.000 displaced people came to live in Zavidovici. They
14 mostly came from Eastern Bosnia, predominantly from Srebrenica. In Kljuc
15 municipality, also a number of displaced persons came to live, fewer than
16 in Zavidovici. As for Sanski Most municipality, they had a large number
17 of population in 1991, and that in 2009, they had 16.000 people left.
18 Serbs and Croats moved out --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 16.000 people less
20 in 2009.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs and Croats moved out, and
22 based on that, we can conclude that both during the war and after the
23 war, the domicile Muslim population also moved out of this municipality.
24 This confirms my thesis that economic factors were quite strong, both
25 during the war and after the war, as were social, political and
1 demographic factors. And, naturally, there was a factor called forced
2 migration which is inevitable in any war, including Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 By illustrating these facts, this data, we will see that by way of this
4 example I showed that it is not misplaced to criticise and to challenge
5 data from the expert report of Madam Tabeau and also in the work of
6 research and investigation centre of Mirsad Tokaca. Why do I mention
7 these two persons? I do so because they conducted the most comprehensive
8 research of these issues in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 This is why I think my expert report complements their work and
10 helps provide a more realistic picture of the situation in the
11 demographic sense, both during the war and after the war in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And by your leave, I will paraphrase the words of
13 Madam Tabeau. She and her associates when assessing or evaluating the
14 project of the research and documentation centre of Mirsad Tokaca which
15 is called "The Bosnian Book of the Dead." She said that it was very
16 important to use a large number of sources, to use different methodology
17 or methodological approaches. This is why it was quite sufficient for me
18 to give a critical view of the work, both of this research and
19 documentation centre and the work of Mrs. Tabeau.
20 So this was a very polite comment by Mrs. Tabeau with which I
21 fully agree because any war, including the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
22 causes a situation where final data is still not available when it comes
23 to the victims of war and all of demographic processes. This requires
24 very comprehensive research and this is something that Mrs. Tabeau also
25 finally accepted and included in her work, and I share this opinion.
1 Q. When I asked you whether these factors, the factors that I
2 enumerated in the previous question which can be seen in paragraph 9,
3 whether they affected the migration during the war, I wanted to focus on
4 the following: Did this change the ranking of these conditions or these
5 factors? Did some of them in this new situation become more dominant,
6 more important than others? That's the point of my question.
7 A. If I understood you well, you are referring to current
8 contemporary factors. If we are speaking of current contemporary
9 factors, then I would like to highlight the economic factors. All of our
10 research in Bosnia-Herzegovina indicated that this is the main reason for
11 all population movements and motivation for people moving out of Bosnia
12 and Herzegovina, especially the young one in the age group between 20 and
13 40 years of age. And this is the most mobile segment of the population.
14 And then political and some other factors are much less present
15 when it comes to motives for leaving the area. We could add some other
16 factors that also affect very intense migrational movements.
17 Q. As a follow-up question, Professor, let me ask you this: To what
18 extent did the liberalisation of the visa regime for the European Union
19 and some other non-European countries affect the movements of the
20 population in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. This liberalisation of the visa regime was hailed by the
22 population in Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially young and qualified
23 workforce, who, for economic reasons, want to find better life outside of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Some of the research that we used, such as
25 polls, questionnaires, and other recognised methods, including research
1 conducted by me, among the most sensitive segment of the population which
2 are the highly-educated residents, indicates that about 70 per cent of
3 the young residents left Bosnia-Herzegovina mainly for economic reasons.
4 Only a very small percentage, some 5 per cent of the residents, left the
5 area out of political or some other reasons. Therefore, this
6 liberalisation of the visa regime had quite an effect.
7 On the other hands, we believe that it is unrealistic to expect
8 people to leave at such a high rate because European countries are no
9 longer immigration countries. They do not accept an unlimited number of
10 immigrants. So a large number of people want to leave, but it is
11 questionable whether they will, indeed, be able to leave. This opens up
12 some other questions, how to keep this young and educated population in
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, this is not the focus of my testimony
14 here today so I would not want to dwell on this any longer.
15 Q. Let me put another question to you. Let us go back to the war
16 events. In your expert report in paragraph 212 in some other places, you
17 mentioned the so-called voluntary and forced migrations. Would you
18 please explain that to the Trial Chamber. What do you have in mind when
19 you say voluntary or spontaneous migration and when you say forced
20 migration? Would you please define them.
21 A. Essentially, during the war, all migrations are mostly forced
22 migrations. However, they can be divided into several categories and
23 this is very important for this case. I wanted to highlight this in my
24 work. It would have been better, perhaps, if I put voluntary under
25 quotation marks. Using my own example, I voluntarily left the area where
1 I lived in early 1992 when the war began. However, there was a dose of
2 fear, a dose of insecurity, experience from previous war periods,
3 especially in the areas where some ethnic groups were in minority. And
4 then spontaneously, or under quotation marks, voluntarily, the population
5 moved out even before the conflict arose. They moved either outside of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina or within Bosnia and Herzegovina to places where
7 they felt safer. Every ethnic group mostly moved towards the area where
8 their ethnic community was dominant.
9 So the data from 1992 indicates that this transfer of the
10 population was quite present in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I have to stress
11 that this was not sufficiently explained both in the work of Mrs. Tabeau
12 and in the work of Mr. Tokaca from the research and documentation centre.
13 The movement, the transfer of the population in war time needs to be
14 classified. This is not unknown in the world academic circles. There is
15 ethnic cleansing. There is deportation and persecution of population.
16 So we have ethnic cleansing, we have deportation, we have persecution and
17 we have voluntary moving out under quotation marks. The ethnic cleansing
18 indicates that the population was moved out by way of using force and
19 quickly, and not all of the movement of the population can be classified
20 under this category. This is why, in my opinion, it was very important
21 to clarify this and to explain this further since this was not done
22 either in the work of Mrs. Tabeau or in the work of other institutions.
23 I keep mentioning the research and documentation centre, even though they
24 don't seem to be the most relevant source for this case.
25 During my testimony here if it is real relevant for you, I would
1 like to spend more time explaining this phenomenon. So ethnic cleansing
2 is only that phenomenon which encompasses that the population was moved
3 out by way of using force and quickly. This is not something that
4 happened in all areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially not in all areas
5 in the indictment in this case. There were also cases of transfer of
6 population and deportation including regions where one or the other or
7 the third ethnic community was dominant one. So this is how the people
8 moved and I can assure you that this process continues to this very day.
9 Q. Professor, when transfer of the population occurs, when a group
10 of population leaves an area and comes to another area where people from
11 their ethnic community have majority, does this cause the domino effect
12 or does this cause the effect of connected vessels and does this effect
13 movement of population from other ethnic communities?
14 A. The way I see it and according to my research and this is
15 confirmed by all statistical data, what happened during the war in
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina is crucial. If, for example, and that's what I
17 mention in some paragraphs, or rather, that's -- that was the way it was
18 in the Bijeljina municipality, and I also explained why. Twenty-four
19 thousand Muslims left the area, to put it mildly. At the same time,
20 39.000 Serbs settled in the Bijeljina area. That's what we call the
21 connected vessels effect, or the domino effect, if you will.
22 These are these spontaneous migrations that I mentioned. When
23 one ethnic group arrives in an area, they simply take the settled areas
24 of the ethnic group, that's in the minority there. This letter going to
25 the areas that were left vacant after the departure of another ethnic
1 group. These are the most intensive processes that happened in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I personally think -- although I don't want to go
3 into the military aspect, I think that there was no institution that
4 could have prevented these movements, mostly out of fear for themselves,
5 for their families, for their survival, but also economically. Reserves
6 of food were depleting and people were actually scared of starvation.
7 And I can say that I've been through that. That was the
8 situation in the town where I lived before the war. Such was the
9 atmosphere before the -- before open conflict in many parts of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina because we must clearly point out that not every area
11 was directly affected by the war. Indirectly yes, but not necessarily
12 directly, and that's general knowledge.
13 Q. Professor, you often use, and I'll state paragraphs 6 and 10 as a
14 reference, the term ethnic territorial homogenisation. You use that term
15 often, so could you please explain it to us?
16 A. Yes. All my explanations of the ethnodemographic movements in
17 the war, and I also researched the post-war period, can corroborate the
18 basic thesis that I put forward and that is the ethnic territorial
19 homogenisation. This is not a known thing internationally. This
20 happened from times of antiquity on, for economic reasons; in the middle
21 ages, for religious reasons. During the colonisation of the Americas or
22 Australia, Aboriginals and the native population was pushed back. In the
23 20th centuries, it was especially ethnic minorities that were suppressed,
24 and thus we arrive at the period of 1992 through 1995 where this process
25 was very pronounced.
1 Ethnic territorial homogenisation means that the population of
2 one, the other, and the third ethnic group was directed to those areas or
3 regions in Bosnia-Herzegovina where one of these was dominant. That's
4 for example, Central Bosnia for the Muslims, north-west Bosnia, or, more
5 specifically, the Cazin region, and then the north-east Bosnia or the
6 Tuzla region which is very densely populated, and, finally, Eastern
7 Bosnia. The Serbs were oriented toward the Krajina where the
8 concentration of that population was most prominent in the Banja Luka
9 region. Then in north-east Bosnia, I'm referring to Semberija,
10 Bijeljina, and so on, through Majevica, parts of Eastern Bosnia and
11 Sarajevo Romanija area. The Croatian population was concentrated in
12 Western Herzegovina, where nowadays there's a symbolic proportion of
13 Serbs and Muslims, as well as in enclaves, in Central Bosnia, Zepce and
14 the surrounding areas, and in Northern Bosnia parts of the Posavina, the
15 areas of Odzak and Orasje. These are, today, those ethnic regions where
16 one, the other, or the third ethnic group is dominant. I can corroborate
17 that with a number of examples. I can give you the example of large
18 cities such as Sarajevo, Banja Luka, Mostar, Zenica, Tuzla and others.
19 Q. Professor, there's another term that you often use, you say that
20 as a result of that there has been a simplification of the ethnic mosaic.
21 Can you put that in relation to the leopard skin that you have mentioned.
22 What would that map be like if we were to colour it using the colours
23 that I usually use to represent the three ethnicities in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina? You know that there were those maps that were --
25 municipalities were represented in a certain colour standing for certain
1 ethnicity. What would that map be like now if we were to colour it?
2 A. Yes, I understand. At any rate it certainly would no longer be a
3 genuine leopard skin. There were, or rather, there are individual
4 colours that are dominant in certain areas, but there are still areas
5 where the population is mixed. However, the process is in progress, it
6 doesn't stop with the end of the war. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, it's still
7 on-going, and this is something that is known from some international
8 examples. Population is a dynamic category, and the shares of some
9 group -- of individual groups change. In a couple of decades, the
10 demographic image with regard to the distribution of population may
11 change again, but we cannot know that. It is simplified now because the
12 population is now ethnically concentrated.
13 I must points out the following: Sarajevo is the capital city of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and according to the information from the Federal
15 Bureau of Statistics -- but I stress that these are estimates because
16 there has been no census since 1991. We are the only ones in Europe who
17 have been without one for 20 years, and that makes our scientific
18 research more difficult because we lack valid statistical data. But
19 according to estimates, Sarajevo is now populated by 90 per cent Bosniaks
20 and the remaining 10 per cent are Serbs, Croats and others.
21 Until the beginning of the war, the Muslims were dominant there
22 but they did -- their share was not over 50 per cent. There were almost
23 40 per cent Serbs, and so on. This is sufficient example for the
24 simplification of the ethnic mosaic in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Certainly, I
25 can mention other examples too if you are interested, Banja Luka, Mostar
1 or other towns can also serve as an example, but the situation is not the
3 Q. Before the break, let me ask you this question: I will not speak
4 about towns but in terms of regions. If you were to speak in terms of
5 colours, where would a colour be most solid, ethnically speaking, in
6 which region?
7 A. I'll repeat, although I think I -- I've just explained. The
8 Sarajevo Zenica region, so let's boil it down to Central Bosnia and this
9 region is the back bone of Central Bosnia, has a dominant Muslim
10 population. This is a very simplified image because Zenica was
11 considered a very Yugoslav city until 1992, and Sarajevo, too, was
12 multi-ethnic. The Tuzla region which is densely populated now has a
13 symbolic share of other ethnic groups.
14 On the other hand, the Banja Luka region has a dominant Serb
15 share in the population. That was the case before, too, but it's more
16 dominant now. Mostar, as you know, is still an ethnically divided town.
17 On the one side there are Croats, on the other side there are Bosniaks.
18 All of Western Herzegovina is basically a mono-ethnic area populated
19 mostly by Croats, and a small share of Serbs or Bosniaks mostly no longer
20 live there. This is merely an illustration of the regional ethnic
21 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina which speaks about very complex
22 ethnodemographic movements, very complex. Many more researchers and
23 institutions should deal with these matters so that we can come up with
24 some opinions and offer some solutions.
25 Q. If I understood you correctly, then that colour would be most
1 solid in the area of the former Herceg-Bosna; am I right?
2 A. Yes, Herceg-Bosna, but I've also mentioned some other examples:
3 Sarajevo, Zenica, and these other regions, of course.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I note the time, I
5 believe it's time for a break.
6 JUDGE HALL: So we would resume in 20 minutes.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, while we are waiting for the witness to
11 come in, how much time do you expect you would be with this witness?
12 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, probably not have question for this
14 JUDGE HALL: I see.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Because he is joint expert.
16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, in relation to that matter, there is
18 a question of scheduling of the next witness, Mr. Bjelosevic, who needs
19 to return for -- and I was approached by VWS so as to indicate when would
20 we expect Mr. Bjelosevic to return to The Hague. I am in -- I said that
21 I'm in the hands of Trial Chamber on that matter because we still
22 don't -- we are not sure when this witness will end. So I'm asking for
23 some sort of a guidance from the Trial Chamber. I was -- I was -- my
24 intention was to say Sunday because I believe he is supposed to start on
25 Monday the 16th, but ...
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL: I was doing the calculations when this witness
3 started, and it seems as if we are going to run into Monday with the
4 present witness, so if Mr. Bjelosevic returns on Monday we should be able
5 to pick him up on Tuesday. That is our estimate.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. I will notify VWS
7 accordingly. Thank you very much.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Professor Pasalic, according to you, what is the starting point
11 for serious demographic research, the basis?
12 A. The inevitable starting point in demography is valid statistical
13 data. That means that we need data that we obtain by relevant research,
14 by the most relevant research. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is the
15 population census. This is the so-called traditional approach of the
16 population census. There's also a population census that is conducted by
17 way of a population register which is applied by many countries in Europe
18 and beyond.
19 Other data make demographic research more difficult because they
20 stem from institutions whose primary goal is not demography or valid
21 demographic data. This has been the crucial problem we've been facing
22 all this time in Bosnia-Herzegovina because, as I've already said, there
23 has been no population census since 1991. And I'm talking about 20
24 years. It is well known that the information obtained by way of a
25 population census is valid for five or seven years. Nine years later
1 they are no longer valid or useable because they no longer reflect the
2 realistic image of the situation on the ground, that applies to
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina too.
4 Apart from a database which is important for demographic
5 research, there are also secondary sources which are also very important.
6 Highly-ranked scientific papers, journals, projects, et cetera. If you
7 have that at your disposal, then you can endeavour to make a
8 comprehensive demographic research. But I must point out that in
9 scientific research you cannot take everything from others. The most
10 highly valued part of the job is what you research yourself and present
11 in your work. This is usually done through empirical research, original
12 scientific research in practice, and so on, which in my report is present
13 and I believe that was the most valuable part of my research.
14 Q. Professor, where do you think that polls or questionnaires and
15 similar methods rank?
16 A. Yes. In scientific research, these are so-called tools, the
17 tools that we use to research some events, especially where there are no
18 primary data sources such as those obtained through a population census
19 or other very reliable sources. Then you rely on these tools, especially
20 polls, interviews, questionnaires. It is very important to choose your
21 samples skillfully.
22 There are many types of samples. They are determined
23 mathematically, statistically for the sample to be representative and
24 reflect the whole or the area that you -- that's the object of your
25 research in order to depict the situation in that area as well as
1 possible. But I must stress that it is very difficult to have a sample
2 that would give a 100 per cent faithful presentation of the situation in
3 a certain area or territory.
4 Q. Professor, can final results within demographic research be
5 obtained without a population census, and I'm specifically referring to
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina now?
7 A. Well, I can start with a joke, maybe yes, maybe no. In
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the census is the most relevant and the most
9 comprehensive research conducted by statistical research and I have
10 explained why. We have no more relevant source. With regard to the
11 complexity of the subject matter, we cannot arrive at the most valid and
12 most original works without a census, but of course, even without a
13 census life doesn't stand still, then we use other methods.
14 Currently, everything is based on estimates in my country, but
15 estimates are like chewing gum, so somebody estimates that there have
16 been 300.000 victims in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then institutions are --
17 the most comprehensive research conducted by Ewa Tabeau and the IDC in
18 Sarajevo mention a number of victims that amounts to one-third of that
19 figure. So estimates are relative but we are still using them because
20 without a census, there is no better data. That is why it's important to
21 rely on a large number of sources in your research in order to avoid
22 statistical subjectivity, bias, and in order to avoid creating wrong
23 historic images of the situation in certain areas.
24 Q. It is not contested before this Tribunal, and you have also
25 mentioned it, is the fact that the last census in former Yugoslavia and
1 in Bosnia-Herzegovina was conducted in 1991. What I would like to know
2 is whether there have been any censuses in the -- since in the
3 Republika Srpska?
4 A. Let me point out immediately that according to international
5 methodology, or, more specifically, the United Nations methodology
6 because they determined the methodology that is binding on all countries
7 in the world, and they -- the methodology also contains some guide-lines.
8 But internal censuses are not prohibited in a territorial unit that is
9 smaller than a country, but the Republika Srpska has not conducted a
10 population census until 1996 when a rather comprehensive census of
11 refugees and displaced persons was made. That data was very significant
12 and it's still used for several purposes including research. There
13 has -- the data of the number of refugees and displaced persons has been
14 reviewed since and there are also different figures from the federal
15 statistics bureau. And let me mention that at the level of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina there is also the statistical agency. These are the
17 three organisations that are relevant for the publication of statistical
18 data. And I mostly use the statistical data from these institutions if I
19 can because other data -- using other data would be arbitrary and less
20 than serious from the scientific point of view.
21 Q. All right. According to the principles of statistical methods,
22 by taking samples for certain municipalities, or just for one or several
23 ethnic groups, could one draw from that and provide overall data for all
24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
25 A. I believe this to be one of the crucial issues in these
1 proceedings. As we explained all the demographic and all other
2 complexities in the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina creating any
3 sample from specific municipalities which should represent the entirety
4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina is practically impossible. This can be elaborated
5 by giving a number of examples, including the ones from Ms. Tabeau's
6 documents which I have studied where one can use good arguments to refute
7 some of the conclusions which were drawn while admitting that great
8 effort has been made and that this was huge work, this principle of work,
9 statistical and mathematical, cannot be applied from a distance to such a
10 complex ethnic and demographic space as Bosnia-Herzegovina is. That is
11 why I emphasise that empirical research is something that is necessary
12 when dealing with such issues. This is research on the ground knowing
13 the area really well, working in the field, and conducting original
14 scientific research. That is when we can use the tools we recently
15 talked about, using the polls, questionnaires, and interviews, but only
16 if they are standardised, unless they are being changed and unless they
17 are arbitrary.
18 Q. When using the samples method, can the subjectivity of choosing
19 specific municipalities can entail certain risks? [Microphone not
20 activated] ... I apologise, my microphone was off and the interpreters
21 have not heard me.
22 Professor, if the selection of municipalities which are to be
23 covered by the samples is subjective, does it entail the risk you just
25 A. Yes, and your question is somewhat suggestive because whenever
1 anyone is subjective then the picture you create about anything is
2 different. If I selected a different sample of municipalities, you would
3 see that the picture we would get would be completely different from what
4 has been represented in this case. That means that subjectivity would
5 have to be excluded in order to avoid creating false historical pictures
6 concerning certain processes and phenomena. This is why I believe that a
7 number of works dealing with this issue, and that is the purpose of my
8 report, provide a more comprehensive and more realistic picture of what
9 took place in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at least with respect
10 to the demographic aspect of the issue that we are discussing here today.
11 Q. When we discuss Bosnia-Herzegovina, do we have to take into
12 account the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to arrive at
13 valid data?
14 A. From what I just answered when answering to your previous
15 question, the answer is of course. The picture that is by far more
16 realistic would be obtained if we covered the entire territory of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina and represented by facts everything that was
18 researched, all the phenomena and everything else. Then we would have
19 the most relevant and the most comprehensive picture of everything that
20 has to do with demographic processes, whatever is done partially, in
21 terms of research in certain areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, cannot provide
22 such a picture. I claim this categorically and I can prove it factually
23 at any given moment.
24 Q. Does that have anything to do with the argument you mentioned,
25 the argument concerning communicating vessels where the population shifts
1 from one area to another and so on?
2 A. Of course. This is an additional argument considering that the
3 population of Bosnia-Herzegovina within its borders and without the
4 borders of Bosnia-Herzegovina is prone to movements. What illustrates
5 this are two millions [as interpreted] of people who moved from their
6 households at the beginning of the war, about 1 million left
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and another million within Bosnia-Herzegovina. This
8 will be the category of the so-called displaced persons, around 1
9 million. That is sufficient to illustrate the principle which we call
10 chain reaction or communicating vessels or something similar. This is
11 why it is very difficult to prepare a sample and prove on a sample all
12 the demographic issues in connection with this subject.
13 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, by now in the evidence
14 we've heard that there's a principle of connected vessels which is also
15 known as a principle call the domino effect, and now we find it's the --
16 furthermore, it has a third name, chain reaction. There's been, so far,
17 and I'm not aware of anywhere in the report where this principle that
18 goes by three names has been explained. In order for you to follow this
19 evidence, you'll have to find out eventually at some point and I suggest
20 now would be a good time, what exactly the principle of connected vessels
21 or the domino effects or chain reaction exactly is.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Professor, I will not repeat my learned friend the Prosecutor's
24 question. Can you please explain what the Prosecutor is interested in.
25 A. I have understood Mr. Prosecutor's question. I believe that in
1 my previous answers, I tried to illustrate that by using an example. In
2 addition to the three municipalities, i.e., Zavidovici, Kljuc and Sanski
3 Most, I also included the example of the Bijeljina municipality, from
4 where 24.000 Muslims moved out but at the same time 39.000 Serbs came to
5 Bijeljina. From where, from Sarajevo, from Tuzla and from Zenica. I
6 mean, these towns and the surrounding areas. Simultaneously, from
7 Bijeljina, Zvornik, Banja Luka, Doboj and so on, the Muslim population
8 moved out into the towns from which Serbs have moved to the listed towns.
9 Likewise, the Croatian population oriented itself towards Mostar,
10 Western Herzegovina and enclaves that I mentioned: Zepce, in
11 Central Bosnia, and Odzak and Orasje in the Posavina region. However,
12 the picture often changed during the war because some of the areas were,
13 on several occasions, controlled by one or the other or the third
14 military formation, let me put it that way. Symbolically, we called it,
15 under quotation marks, communicating vessels or chain reactions, even
16 though the expert terms that we used are not symbolic or figurative in
17 that kind. The idea was to be as figurative as possible for a wider
18 audience, and this is why we mention that here today. But I think that
19 it was clear what is meant by the chain reaction or as Mr. Prosecutor
20 called it, the domino effect. Something is torn down in one area,
21 something is built up in another one. This is a demographic
22 characteristic of movements of the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
23 especially during war time.
24 Q. All right, Professor. One ethnic group, if it moves out from a
25 certain area and comes to another area where this ethnic group
1 constitutes the majority, by moving in this way, does it exert pressure
2 on other ethnic groups which then have to leave? Could that be the chain
3 reaction process, as I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong?
4 A. Well, I think that essentially you have understood the problem
5 correctly. When due to the forced migration, a group of people from one
6 ethnic group comes to one specific area, then indirectly pressure is
7 exerted on another ethnic group who had been living there earlier. That
8 ethnic group feels more insecure because war implies many terrible
9 things, people have left their family members, some extremist or
10 paramilitary groups appear and great insecurity is felt by the civilians,
11 and then people were willing to leave everything they have, all their
12 property and to go to territory which they would consider to be more safe
13 which was most often an area where their ethnic group was predominant.
14 This is what I called voluntary migration, and these are absolute
15 characteristics of demographic movement in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the
16 war between 1991 and 1995. And it peaked just before the outbreak of the
17 war and during the initial period of the conflict, because later on the
18 borders were closed, movements were made more difficult, and even if you
19 wanted, you could not move from one area to another, it was impossible.
20 Q. All right. Professor, have there been conditions after the war
21 and up until now to make a study that would cover the entire territory of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and that would deal with all the issues pertaining to
23 demographic movements in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war and up to this
25 A. Let me first say that there is a great need for such work. On
1 the other hand, so far we have not managed to produce such a
2 comprehensive study at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to
3 determine all the facts. I primarily have in mind something that would
4 be produced internally within Bosnia-Herzegovina by the local
5 professionals and scientists who have not produced such a work.
6 The most comprehensive research is believed to be the work of
7 Ewa Tabeau and IDC, Mr. Tokaca, on the one hand; and in terms of the area
8 of Republika Srpska, I think that would including my own remember search.
9 This is why I emphasised in my report that if these three studies and
10 many others that are necessary could somehow be integrated, we would get
11 a quite different, more comprehensive, more realistic fact about all
12 developments and demographic changes in the territory of
14 I can just announce along these lines that soon a book written by
15 me will be published, so these three researches perhaps taken together
16 might provide a more comprehensive research focused on Bosnia-Herzegovina
17 that would be based on scientific facts without any impartiality or
18 subjectivity which is not to be accepted in science, and without any
19 compromise because there can be no compromise in science. That is
20 acceptable in politics.
21 Q. In such an effort, would you and everyone else striving to make
22 such a report, the census would be of any help, the census which is being
23 constantly talked about in Bosnia-Herzegovina and would be a good idea to
24 produce such a study only once a census is conducted?
25 A. As for the professionals from this field in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
1 we have said a census is something that is most necessary at this moment.
2 It should cover the territory of all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. After 20
3 years, it is really needed if we are to have valid statistical data.
4 If I may just illustrate how important that is by giving another
5 example. After the war, Croatia conducted a census in 2001 and faced all
6 the other -- all the major demographic problems in that country. I think
7 this is something that is necessary in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well.
8 However, the issue of the population census in Bosnia-Herzegovina has
9 shifted into the field of politics and it is now only a political issue.
10 Once the law on the census is adopted and the political agreement has to
11 be reached first, then the technical part of the census can be carried
12 out quite easily and we expect this to take place next year at the
14 We would then enter another census decade as recommended by
15 United Nations to all countries of the world so that the data would be
16 included in international statistical databases that it could be compared
17 and that various development programmes could be created. Without the
18 census Bosnia-Herzegovina would have major problems in connection with
19 this and also when it comes to accessing funds from the European Union,
20 and so on, which would make its overall development quite difficult.
21 Q. All right. I will now move on to something else. Namely,
22 Professor, in the introductory section of your report, you cite the
23 examples of the Zavidovici, Kljuc and Sanski Most municipalities, and you
24 note the decrease in the numbers of Muslims. First of all, I have to ask
25 you whether Zavidovici was under the control of Muslim forces throughout
1 the war? I have in mind only the Zavidovici municipality. And are they
2 now part of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
3 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please, unless I've misunderstood
4 Mr. Cvijetic's question, the number of Bosniaks increased.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If that's how it's recorded then
6 it's wrong.
7 MR. Di FAZIO: Yeah, it says 34.198 in 1991 and 34.227 in 2009,
8 according to this table. I want to make sure Dr. Pasalic has the correct
9 figures when he is discussing this.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree. I don't want to testify
11 either and Professor Pasalic will explain that. But if you have
12 carefully read the expert report, then you will see how this difference
13 is accounted for.
14 Q. Could you help us, Professor?
15 A. I can explain to you based on the table, though it is explained
16 in the text. Let's take Zavidovici municipality as our example. It had
17 57.164 inhabitants in 1991, of which number 34.198 Muslims. In 2009, the
18 estimate is that the municipality had 38.027 inhabitants which means a
19 decrease of about 19.000. Why? Because about 10.000 Serbs left and 5-
20 to 6.000 Croats. We could say that this -- this is the compensation. We
21 have said that about 10.000 displaced persons from Eastern Bosnia, mostly
22 from Srebrenica, settled the area. I know that because I was born and
23 grew up in that area. It was mostly populated by people from Srebrenica
24 who were transferred there.
25 If you see -- if you add these 10.000 then you see that 10.000
1 native Muslims were missing. Why? I have explained that as well. All
2 three ethnic groups were leaving during the war but also after the war.
3 Zavidovici municipality can even be taken as a representative example for
4 the emigration of all three ethnic groups. The demographic losses of
5 this municipality amount to almost 20.000, but this comprises all ethnic
6 groups, including the one that was dominant before the war and remained
7 dominant after the war. But the other ethnic groups also left during the
8 war for economic reasons, for reasons of lack of security on safety. And
9 I can mention another example, the Krivaja timber industry which was
10 basically closed down and some 30.000 people were left without a job.
11 That's why emigration was very strong here. That was the largest timber
12 processing plant in former Yugoslavia. They had 12- to 14.000 employees
13 overall, not only Zavidovici but also other places. They are out of
14 business and certainly the native -- the local Muslims also left the
16 I must also say the following : The absolute capacities of all
17 ethnic groups in Bosnia-Herzegovina have diminished since the war.
18 Relative indicators only change in local or regional areas so that the
19 percentage of the Bosniaks in Zavidovici has now risen to about 90
20 per cent; however, the absolute human capacity is smaller than before the
21 war. I'm now referring to the native population. This has created -- or
22 rather, a distorted image has come to being by the arrival of displaced
23 persons. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, this problem is only finally solved for
24 about -- for a smaller number of persons. The international convention
25 does not protect internally displaced persons. It's a matter that should
1 be dealt with by their country as opposed to the issue of refugees who
2 enjoy international protection.
3 Q. Professor, let us try to corroborate your thesis about emigration
4 with examples from Ms. Tabeau's book.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see 65 ter 10368.
6 398, sorry. 10398. And that's now Exhibit P01627, if I'm not mistaken.
7 Once we see it, I will give you your right page reference. Could we
8 please go to page 81 in Serbian and page 72 in English. Page 72 in
9 English and page 81 in Serbian.
10 Q. Professor, you don't have to look because the page numbers do not
11 coincide with the page numbers in the electronic version. In your hard
12 copy, it's page 85. But you can also see it on the screen, but I believe
13 you'll see it better in the hard copy.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please enlarge the top.
15 Actually, only the part of the text in bold type. No, I mean further
16 down where the numbers are. That's right.
17 Q. Professor, I would like to draw your attention to something in
18 this table. It's titled -- it's part of Annex A1. We want to focus on
19 the numbers here. The language isn't really an issue here because it's
20 only the numbers we are interested in. Professor, look at the Muslims
21 according to the 1991 census. The Muslims in the Federation of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the number is 375.522, can you see it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let me point out to you that this is not the entire Federation,
25 only nine municipalities that were dealt with in the Milosevic case, so
1 don't get puzzled by the number. So this is the population in these nine
2 municipalities, 375.522.
3 MR. Di FAZIO: I object, if Your Honours please. The title needs
4 to be read, "Status of 1991 and 1997, 1998: Individuals Born Before
5 1980." It's part of the population.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree, but I wanted to read it
7 all. But I'm now focusing only on the numbers.
8 Q. Let us now move on to 1997, 1998, Professor. And we can see a
9 decrease of the absolute number of inhabitants to 268.745. Can you see
10 that number?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But in the last column where a percentage is stated, we can see
13 an increase by 57.5 per cent in these nine municipalities. This is an
14 increase in the share of the Muslims. At first sight this may be a
15 mathematical paradox. Can you explain, could this be conclusion or could
16 this follow from what you were saying a minute ago?
17 A. Yes. That is exactly the case. The absolute demographic
18 capacities were reduced, whereas the relative indicators have changed.
19 If I may say, although it doesn't say so here, but I have research into
20 this, the overall demographic losses in Bosnia-Herzegovina are about
21 800.000 from 1992 through 2010. That, of course, includes all ethnic
23 Q. Professor, but let's stick to the table for the time being --
24 MR. Di FAZIO: If Your Honours please. I am sorry to interrupt,
25 but the way the transcript is coming out, it's misleading. If you look
1 at those figures, they apply only to the Milosevic case area, they only
2 apply to individuals born before 1980, and the figure of plus 57 per cent
3 only applies to that part of the Milosevic municipalities that were
4 studied that are in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's by no
5 means related to nine municipalities or Bosnia-wide. It's very specific.
6 If you just go horizontally across and you can see what that summary of
7 figures means. Republika Srpska, percentage change in Muslims down by
8 95 per cent; in the Federation, up by 57. That is the area it's talking
9 about and group within that Muslim population, namely those born before
10 1980. So you got to be precise now because these tables are trying to be
11 as precise as they can, and you can't just simply have generalised
12 questions and answers, otherwise you won't understand this table which is
13 what this evidence is about.
14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Di Fazio, and I speak entirely for myself, it
15 seems to me that the -- and I confess my difficulty with figures such as
16 this, but for comprehension, wouldn't it be simpler for Mr. Cvijetic to
17 lead the evidence in the way that he understands it and you to reserve
18 your matters for cross-examination? Wouldn't that make it more
19 comprehensible for all of us?
20 MR. Di FAZIO: Certainly, if you prefer me to approach it in that
21 fashion, I'm happy to do that. But I'd just like to alert the
22 Trial Chamber to the need for, when following the evidence, to look long
23 and hard at these particular tables as the evidence proceeds. But I'll
24 do it in the manner that you suggested --
25 JUDGE HALL: You'll flag these tables when the come up and take
1 us back to it at the appropriate time.
2 MR. Di FAZIO: Yes.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecutor is
4 anticipating my following questions. So I would just like to ask for a
5 bit of patience and everything will be clear.
6 Q. Professor, how and for what reason did the percentage of Muslims
7 rise if the absolute number dropped so sharply? That would be my first
9 A. If you listened to my previous answers carefully, this can all be
10 subsumed under the process of ethnic territorial homogenisation, although
11 I must immediately state some doubt with regard to these numbers which
12 represent the share of the population that was born before 1980. To my
13 mind, this is irrelevant, and I refuted that on using the examples of
14 some municipalities because the calculations by which these numbers were
15 arrived at were very simple or simplified. Why? Because the differences
16 in natural population growth is such that the Muslims who have the
17 greatest population growth obviously have the strongest group of -- the
18 largest share in the younger population. That's why such a simplified
19 image came into being.
20 It is clear that the Muslim population settled in municipalities
21 that belonged to the Federation, and although their absolute capacities
22 were reduced, and I said that was because 800.000 people are missing from
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina as compared to the previous census, then all relative
24 indicators change and only they -- in the Federation, the Muslim
25 populations are dominant here and the RS the Serbs, but both, and also
1 the Croats, have a reduced absolute capacity. There are also official
2 statistical data from the Federal Bureau of Statistics that are based on
3 estimates, and these are identical. So this is just the shifting of
4 population from one region to another for reasons of war losses, direct
5 or indirect, purely demographic losses and also, of course, overall
6 demographic losses.
7 By way of conclusion, let me say that what was presented in
8 Ewa Tabeau's report to my mind is irrelevant because more elements,
9 criteria and factors should have been included to get more accurate data,
10 especially for 1997, 1998, where the author herself stated that the
11 results were arrived at based on some unreliable sources. That's very
12 obvious and I agree with that absolutely, so that these numbers should
13 not be taken for granted, although the overall trend is clear, namely the
14 process of ethnic territorial homogenisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. The essence of my question is the last thing you said, was this
16 growth of the relative share of the Muslim population irrespective of the
17 drop in their absolute number a result of the moving out of Serb and
18 Croatian population in the area?
19 A. Certainly. We are talking about municipalities that are now part
20 of the Federation of BH where the Serb population but also the Croatian
21 population is the absolute minority. Although all groups' capacities
22 have diminished, still the relative share of an ethnic group, in this
23 case the Muslims, has grown in municipalities that belong to the
24 Federation of BH. We can also speak about the reverse process, of
25 course. I hope that this is sufficient.
1 Q. We will get to the opposite process as well, I'm interested in
2 another piece of information now. Which of the factors affected the
3 moving out of the Muslim population and the reduction in absolute numbers
4 in the area that was under the Muslim control during the war and now
5 remains within the territory of the Federation of BH?
6 A. Perhaps I will repeat some of the data. During the war, there
7 were numerous political, economic, social, psychological factors, and
8 then after the war the dominant factors are the economic ones. These are
9 the factors that cause the moving out of the population within the
10 municipalities belonging to the Federation. I can corroborate this with
11 the following data published by the Federal Bureau of Statistics. Not a
12 single canton out of 10, except the Tuzla and Sarajevo canton, has the
13 same number of residents as in 1991. All of them in absolute terms have
14 fewer residents. Tuzla and Sarajevo have approximately the same number
15 of residents. However, the relative indicators have changed and now the
16 dominant population in all cantons but three are the Muslims, and in the
17 three it's Croats that are dominant, Western Herzegovina canton, Posavina
18 canton and Canton 10. It is visible that in these cantons, and if we add
19 to it -- we can also add to it Podrinje canton, have a negative
20 birth-rate or birth growth which means that Bosnia population has the
21 largest share in all of these population structures because
22 traditionally, both in former Yugoslavia and currently, that ethnic group
23 has the largest growth rate or birth-rate even though it is now smaller
24 than before the war. This is typical for many countries in Europe that
25 have not completed demographic transition processes unlike some other
1 European countries that have completed that process.
2 So let me repeat once again, what is shown here in this report by
3 Mrs. Tabeau cannot be relevant if we were to take into account all
4 factors and facts that I spoke of when it comes to these matters. In
5 this regard, we need to include a much broader selection of facts in
6 order to come to the conclusions that would be of greater quality and
8 Q. All right. I will now give you an opportunity to give your final
9 judgement on this, but before we get to that, please look at the column
10 with the final numbers above the figure of 57.5 per cent. Right above it
11 is minus 95.5 per cent which pertains to the number of Muslims in the
12 Republika Srpska as compared to the 1991 census information. Do you see
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do not comment on it now, just keep it in your mind for the time
16 being while we move to page 89 in the Serbian version, since we are
17 dealing with figures only now. Let's look at the column entitled
18 "Serbs," please, and could we enlarge the bolded part, please.
19 Excellent. Now, please, look at the situation with the Serbian
20 population in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Please go to the
21 last column where we see the figure of minus 88.2 per cent. Do you see
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Professor -- it's page 80 in English, for reference. With all
25 doubts that you had concerning this data, if we were to compare these
1 percentages, in the Federation, according to Ewa Tabeau, the number of
2 Serbs has been reduced by 95.5 per cent, and in Republika Srpska, the
3 number of Muslims was reduced by 88.2 per cent. So let me repeat the
4 question that I already put to you: This piece of information, is it
5 indicative with respect to your thesis on overflowing and shifts of
7 A. Let us be clear, please. When I spoke about the inaccuracy of
8 this data, it pertained to these figures which I assert are not fully
9 accurate. However, I did not mean to challenge the process which took
10 place in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the process of movement of population
11 towards dominantly populated regions for each ethnic group, and this
12 process confirms this. If we were to analyse percentages nowadays, we
13 would get a completely different picture. For example, let me confirm
14 this for you.
15 According to the Federal Bureau of Statistics in the Federation,
16 there are currently 4 per cent of Serbs living. In 1991, and you have
17 that information before you, there were 17.6 per cent of Serbs or near
18 500.000 Serbs living in the same territory of the Federation. As for
19 Muslims in Republika Srpska, according to 1991 census, there were about
20 28 per cent of them; whereas in the sample offered by Ms. Tabeau, we see
21 the figure of 30, 32 per cent of Muslims that had left the area of
22 Republika Srpska. This is why this is not accurate data. This is the
23 principle of territorial ethnic homogenisation of ethnic groups which
24 shows us that there was a transfer of population. Sometimes it was
25 caused by ethnic cleansing, sometimes it was caused by deportations and
1 prosecution. I've already explained that to you. These processes
2 continue to this day. In Republika Srpska, we have a different picture
3 nowadays, I'll show you figures later on, and you will see that some
4 200.000 residents of other ethnic groups returned to Republika Srpska
5 which is about 20 per cent of its total population. And if we remember
6 that the Federation is composed of Muslims and Croats and that they
7 currently comprise 95 per cent of total population, and there are about
8 4 per cent of Serbs and 1 per cent of others, then we see that this
9 process of return and change of ethnic picture in Federation lags behind
10 the same processes in Republika Srpska.
11 So the picture is changing in both entities, but right now it is
12 more positive in the territory of Republika Srpska. I am speaking on the
13 basis of information that come from the Federal Bureau for Statistics so
14 that there's no doubt about this information being biased or you should
15 not have any doubts because this information does not come from Republika
16 Srpska, it comes from the Federation. And I'm here to answer any of the
17 questions you may have.
18 Q. All right. Since we are going move to another topic tomorrow,
19 let us now conclude with this topic, Professor. Therefore, in the
20 territory of the Federation, we see a drop in the absolute figures of
21 Muslim population. This is beyond dispute. And you say that there is
22 such a trend in the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say that this
23 trend is observed in Republika Srpska as well, did I get it right?
24 A. Yes, you did.
25 Q. Now, during war, was the war itself as a force majeure something
1 that contributed to these trends and to what extent?
2 A. Naturally. Not only in Bosnia and Herzegovina but elsewhere as
3 well. The war is the strongest motive for transfer of population. Given
4 that 2 million residents of Bosnia-Herzegovina moved about, one million
5 going outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina and one million shifting within
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that shows that due to political, economic -- or
7 rather, in addition to political, economic and social factors, the war
8 was the greatest factor effecting movement of population.
9 But what is even more important is that even after the war, the
10 demographic figures in Bosnia-Herzegovina continued to drop in the entire
11 territory and also in certain regions because there is not a single
12 municipality in the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina that has the same number of
13 residents as before the war except for very few exceptions, such as
14 densely populated urban areas, Sarajevo, Banja Luka and Bijeljina in the
15 Republika Srpska. All other regions in Bosnia-Herzegovina registered a
16 drop in human resources, and that in itself caused relative changes,
17 caused what we described as ethnic territorial homogenisation in certain
18 areas, that is to say that there was a redistribution of population
19 within Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. These are the evident trends that have
20 been present in Bosnia-Herzegovina since 1992 until nowadays.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to move to
22 some other topics, namely to the expert report of Professor Pasalic, so
23 please don't be upset that I ask that we finish for the day. It will not
24 affect the final estimate of time that I told you I needed for his
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
2 Professor Pasalic, we are about to take the adjournment for
3 today, the first day of your testimony. And at this stage, I would point
4 out to you that having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any
5 communication with counsel from either side in the matter until you are
6 released by the Court. Moreover, in such conversations as you may have
7 with persons outside of the Chamber, you cannot discuss your testimony.
8 Do you understand what I've just said?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. I have understood it.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thank you. So we take the adjournment.
11 Reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.
14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of May,
15 2011, at 9.00 a.m.