110523ED

Page 21088

1 Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

2 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, I would like to be able to finish asking you

3 questions today, so I would be most grateful if you could just keep your

4 answers short and answer the questions.

5 I want to begin this morning, please, by just asking you to look

6 one more time at a list of payroll -- a payroll for Doboj.

7 MS. KORNER: Could we have on the screen, please, document 20108,

8 which is at tab 24F.

9 I'll repeat the number: 20108.

10 Your Honours, I'm told, yet again, there's a technical problem

11 which is about the worst possible time. And it's, of course, important

12 that the accused see the document. I hope that this technical problem

13 can be sorted out asap.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I am afraid also the witness needs to see the

15 document.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes, I know. We can do it in Sanction,

17 Your Honours. This obviously can't go on, so I hope somebody will come

18 and fix this.

19 Q. Right. Do you see the document now, Mr. Bjelosevic?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. This is payment for May --

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I believe the witness said he doesn't.

23 MS. KORNER: Oh, he doesn't. Oh, sorry. Could somebody perhaps

24 turn Sanction on for the witness.

25 Q. This is a payment list for the police detachment staff, and

Page 21089

1 you'll -- for May. And you'll recall we discussed that last week, the

2 division of the police into detachments. And number 5,

3 Milutin Blaskovic. Did you know him?

4 A. Yes. Milutin Blaskovic was a chief of the police detachment and

5 he retired sometime in 1991. I know who he is.

6 MS. KORNER: In fact, if we go to the third page in English and

7 second page in B/C/S, we can see that it's -- third page in English.

8 Thanks. We can see there the list of the police detachment staff. Yes.

9 Thank you.

10 Your Honours, in the light of the discussions, this is a brand

11 new document. I mean, actually brand new received very recently. But

12 can I have it marked for identification, please.

13 JUDGE HALL: So marked.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2331, marked for identification,

15 Your Honours.

16 MS. KORNER: All right.

17 Q. Now I want to go back to where we were on Friday, please, when we

18 were looking at documents during the period when you said that the

19 CSB Doboj was not functioning. That is to say, between the 3rd of

20 May and the end of June.

21 MS. KORNER: Could we have a look, please, now at document 20007.

22 Are we still having to use Sanction? Right. Tab number 24.

23 Q. That's a letter dated the 30th of May, Mr. Bjelosevic. Is that

24 signed by you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21090

1 Q. It's not the contents, really, in which I'm interested. So on

2 the 30th of May, you were obviously at the CSB Doboj to be able to sign

3 this letter?

4 A. It may have been on the 30th or a day or two later, I don't know.

5 But I did sign this.

6 Q. All right.

7 MS. KORNER: Again, Your Honours, may this be marked for

8 identification.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I could only comment. I

10 apologise.

11 MS. KORNER:

12 Q. Yes, if there's something you want to say and provided you say it

13 shortly.

14 A. Very briefly, yes.

15 We can see from the letterhead that this is the National Security

16 Service, and this segment was operational all the time as the

17 National Security Department or state security, as it was called in

18 different periods.

19 Q. Yes.

20 MS. KORNER: Can I just have this marked for identification,

21 Your Honours.

22 JUDGE HALL: Yes, marked for identification.

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2332, marked for identification,

25 Your Honours.

Page 21091

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. Yes, what you said about this originally when you were asked

3 questions, and this is transcript page 19608, is that there was a meeting

4 of the Crisis Staff, and it was agreed, you said, that since the centre

5 did not have any territory, and there -- and there was a lack of

6 personnel for it to be possible for departments to function, namely, the

7 milicija, the crime police, administrative department and so on, it was

8 decided that the public security station should function until further

9 notice with its own elements and that the personnel who remained who were

10 ethnic Serbs within the centre should be re-directed to the station so

11 that the station could function in the best possible way. And that is,

12 indeed, what was done:

13 "Therefore, since then, not a single department in the CSB has" -

14 it says "hasn't," but I think it must be "has" - "functioned except for

15 the communications department. The centres for communications is a

16 single one, and it is used for the CSB and for the station?"

17 That's what you said; do you remember?

18 A. A single centre, both for the SJB and the CSB, and for the state

19 security department or national security. That's a single centre. But

20 we are talking about the National Security Department which continued

21 functioning.

22 However, all these I have just listed were not operational. And

23 whoever claims the contrary should specify which was operational at which

24 time and so on.

25 Q. Yes. This, you said, was done by agreement at a meeting of the

Page 21092

1 Doboj Crisis Staff; that's right, is it?

2 A. I don't know if "agreement" is the right word. If a decision was

3 taken or an order issued, then that's something that has executive power.

4 Q. I'm -- I'm quoting you the word you used. Are you now saying it

5 was an order by the Crisis Staff as opposed to an agreed course of

6 action?

7 A. Well, I said originally that it was done pursuant to

8 instructions. You were able to see the document, and it reads "it is

9 hereby ordered," et cetera.

10 Q. Right. I'm not going to go on and put to you what you said

11 originally.

12 Now I want to you have a look, please, at another document.

13 MS. KORNER: It's 65 ter 20102. Tab -- oh, tab 106. Sorry, I

14 didn't hear that. Tab 106.

15 Q. Right. Do you recognise that book?

16 A. No. Could it be enlarged?

17 Q. I tell you what, I can give you a better copy.

18 A. I still cannot make out the text on the label.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I apologise for the fact that somebody

20 is actually -- when this was being photographed, somebody actually wrote

21 in English what it was.

22 Oh, can we -- he's got the -- we can try and zoom in on the title

23 a bit more.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot read the text.

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 21093

1 Q. All right. Well, are you familiar with the on-site investigation

2 book, Mr. Bjelosevic, from the CSB?

3 A. You mean the on-site investigation reports? I know that such

4 reports were made and photographs were part of it, if that's what you

5 mean.

6 Q. All right. Well, let's go to, please, the first page. Second

7 page, sorry.

8 Does that show, on the 14th of May, that there was an on-site

9 investigation on a murder that had been committed with a fire-arm?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if we go to the last column in that -- for you that book --

12 MS. KORNER: But we need to go to the next page, please.

13 Q. Does that show that the on-site investigation was carried out by

14 Inspector Stankovic and Miladinovic?

15 A. Which number is that? You mean 5?

16 Q. Number 1 on the list. And it's column 13 in the book.

17 A. Yes, Stankovic, Miladinovic.

18 Q. And on the 20th of May, the 22nd of May, the 8th of June, the

19 10th of June, were on-site investigations carried out?

20 A. Could you give me the number for the first column? It will be

21 easier for me.

22 Q. I think it says number 1, which we dealt with.

23 Number 2, 20th of May.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Number 3, 22nd of May.

Page 21094

1 A. All right.

2 Q. Number 4, 8th of June.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And number 5, 10th of June.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And, again, if you go in each of those to column 13 - if we can

7 move to the next page again in English - we see the inspectors who

8 carried out these on-site investigations.

9 So can we take it from that, Mr. Bjelosevic, that the -- there

10 were members of the CSB working and that on-site investigations were

11 being carried out?

12 A. That conclusion would not be justified because all these

13 investigators at the time were members of the SJB.

14 Q. This is -- the on-site investigations were carried out by the

15 CSB, weren't they? This is what this book is headed, and these gentlemen

16 were all members of the CSB.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Ms. Korner. It is probably the haste

18 with which are you examining the witness. But you haven't established

19 whether the witness knows this book. You posed the question but it

20 was -- it was not responded.

21 MS. KORNER: My understanding is whether he knows it or not,

22 that's what the book is actually entitled.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But the problem is that this piece of paper

24 which is -- which we see on the photograph is not a part of the book. It

25 was done probably by your investigators.

Page 21095

1 MS. KORNER: It's the front of the book, as I understand it,

2 which, I agree, is very difficult to read. However, if there's a dispute

3 that this is the CSB Doboj's crime investigation log-book, then, of

4 course, I will call evidence to establish that.

5 Q. So, Mr. Bjelosevic, I've omitted -- you didn't answer: Have you

6 seen this book before?

7 A. No. I have not seen it, and I wish to point out, once again,

8 that during the time-period we are discussing, the CSB did not have a

9 crime police department, and whoever claims the contrary, then have him

10 say to me who the chiefs of the department were -- was and who the

11 inspectors or investigators of the department were, and so on. The names

12 I have seen here were members of the SJB Doboj at that time. And I

13 really cannot make out the letters on the label on the cover. I have

14 never held this book in my hands. But I stand by what I said with regard

15 to the staff of the CSB.

16 You may be drawing parallels here, analogies, because the name of

17 Veljko Solaja is mentioned here. Veljko Solaja once worked at the CSB

18 once the crime police department was established, and some other

19 inspectors, too. But at this time, it was the way I said.

20 Q. Let's make this clear. Are you saying that although in normal

21 times, Stankovic, Solaja and the others would have been members of the

22 CSB? Because the CSB wasn't operating, they were, at that stage, you

23 say, members of the SJB?

24 A. Yes. In May and June, they were members of the SJB. And they

25 took part in this as members of that station's department.

Page 21096

1 Q. I'm suggesting to you, you know, Mr. Bjelosevic, that, in fact,

2 the CSB, with or without your assistance, was actually operating. And

3 that's the truth, isn't it?

4 A. I would kindly ask you for someone to tell me who the chief of

5 the crime investigation service was at the centre at the time, who the

6 inspectors were, who the chief of department for finance was, or the

7 chief of the aliens department, and so on, and then we can have a

8 discussion about this.

9 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]... 65 ter, please, 20109,

10 which is tab 24G. Thank you.

11 Your Honours, could I also ask that this volume be marked for

12 identification. As I say, if there's a dispute that this is the CSB

13 book, I'll call evidence about it later.

14 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Marked for identification.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2333, marked for identification,

16 Your Honours.

17 MS. KORNER: Can we see there, please, the payment for May 1992,

18 Crime Service Doboj. And if -- it's dated 8th of June. And if we go,

19 please, to numbers 9 and 15 on this list.

20 A. Yes, I see this.

21 Q. Right. Do you still stand by your answer that the CSB Doboj, in

22 May and June, had no crime service with the inspectors that we've seen?

23 A. Of course. This document corroborates what I said. Look at the

24 top of the page. It says "crime service." Look at all these names that

25 are listed here, and do have a look at the lower right-hand corner. It

Page 21097

1 is not type written but I recognise the signature. It is the head of the

2 station, Obren --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last name.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this confirm what I had said all

5 along.

6 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, could you repeat the last name for the -- for

7 the interpreter who didn't get it.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said who it was that had signed

9 the document. Obren Petrovic. It is his signature. He was chief of the

10 public security station in Doboj at the time.

11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. I want to move then, please, briefly to your relationship with

14 Mr. Todorovic in Samac.

15 MS. KORNER: Can we look, first of all, at tab 14B, which is

16 P2164.

17 Q. This is a description of the takeover from the 1st KK, or, in

18 fact, it was still in the 5 KK, about the takeover of Samac:

19 "... members of the Territorial Defence and MUP of the Serbian

20 municipality took control of the MUP of Bosanski Samac ..."

21 Correct? That was your information as well?

22 A. If you will allow me, I'd just like to read this.

23 I'm sorry, what was the question? Whether I was -- what, whether

24 I knew about this, right?

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 21098

1 A. Whether I knew that this had happened?

2 Q. Correct.

3 A. I had found out that this had happened, but I don't know exactly

4 when in that period of time that we're discussing now, the month of

5 April. By then, all communications had been cut off towards Modrica and

6 further on there.

7 Q. All right. Todorovic was then appointed, as you say rightly, by

8 the Crisis Staff as chief of the SJB.

9 When did you find that out?

10 A. After the corridor was broken through and when there was

11 communication between Samac and Doboj and vice versa, then I gained some

12 more serious knowledge as to what had happened there; namely, that the

13 station had been relocated from its original building which, indeed, had

14 been by the Sava river. It was relocated to the department store that

15 was further in town, because that building, and also the TO building that

16 was in this line of houses, as the municipal building was, were often

17 fired at by the Croat side.

18 Q. I --

19 A. So the municipality had relocated as well. And then when the

20 corridor was re-established, I found out what the situation was in Samac.

21 Basically, this is the first information I received. I cannot say

22 exactly on which date that happened.

23 Q. I'm sorry, that's all I asked you, and your answer is that you

24 did not know that Todorovic had been appointed chief of the SJB until the

25 opening of the corridor, so the end of June?

Page 21099

1 A. No, no, I did know. Because, from time to time, there were

2 special telephone lines that were used by the railways and they could be

3 used as well. So I don't exactly -- who I heard this from, but I did

4 know that a certain Todorovic had been appointed, that he was chief of

5 the station there. However, I didn't know who the man was, and I wasn't

6 aware of any other details. So I'm speaking about other knowledge that I

7 had at the time. And I do apologise, I didn't quite understand what it

8 was that you were saying.

9 Q. All right.

10 MS. KORNER: Let's have a look now, please, at document 20136.

11 Oh, tab 14G.

12 Q. Do you recognise the signature at the bottom of Mirko Blazanovic?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And this is from the duty operations service, duty officers,

15 Mr. Kopcic and Mr. Blazanovic, dated 18th/19th April, timed at 0820

16 hours. At about 1500 hours on the 18th of April, the commander of ...

17 Mr. Petrovic informed the CSB that Samac had been blocked by Serbian

18 territorials ... all important facilities being held. 200 persons of

19 Muslim or Croatian ethnicity still in the facilities. Four or five

20 workers are being held in the SJB. Acting Chief Dragan Lukic had been

21 captured. Stevo Todorovic who is the former director of Korpara from

22 Samac has been appointed to chief, and so on and so forth.

23 Are you saying that your two inspectors or duty officers there

24 did not pass the information on to you?

25 A. I'm not saying that. I said that I knew this from earlier on,

Page 21100

1 who had been appointed, and now this refreshed my memory. However,

2 details about the work of the station, that I did not know until the

3 month of July, when it was possible to go there. But I did know that a

4 certain Todorovic had been appointed, whom I did not know personally.

5 Q. All right. You see that was the question I asked you, not when

6 you first got to the station, but when you first knew that Todorovic had

7 been appointed. And you agree, do you, that it must have been very

8 shortly after the appointment?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that be marked for identification,

12 please.

13 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so marked.

14 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, I forgot to ask for the earlier

15 payroll with the 65 ter 20109, to be marked for identification as well.

16 That's the one showing the crime inspectors, Solaja and ...

17 JUDGE HALL: Also marked for identification.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, therefore the exhibit numbers are

19 P2334, marked for identification; and the second exhibit is P2335, marked

20 for identification.

21 The first one is 65 ter 20109. And the second one, 65 ter 20136.

22 Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Now, did you, hearing about this appointment, take any steps at

25 all, before you disappeared off to the military, to either legitimatise

Page 21101

1 his appointment or do anything about it at all?

2 A. At the time I couldn't have done anything about any of that.

3 However, to understand the situation better, may I remind you

4 that it was very complex and dynamic in other areas as well, other

5 municipalities, like Derventa. Also here towards Modrica, and so on,

6 there was a general state of chaos that prevailed at the time, and I

7 simply could not have done anything in Samac. It was a war zone that was

8 isolated from us, and one could not reach it anyway.

9 Q. Did you make any attempts to see that the information was passed

10 onto your superiors in the MUP?

11 A. This information was certainly passed on, on the very same day,

12 when the information bulletin was compiled. It was the month of April.

13 No doubt about that.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. Only if communications were down on that particular day. But as

16 soon as communication was re-established, that is what went through.

17 Q. All right. Now, you explained to Mr. Zecevic about the

18 criminal -- the crimes that Mr. Todorovic was committing and what

19 happened in November. When did you become aware that Mr. Todorovic was,

20 in fact, himself committing crimes?

21 A. Todorovic was very reserved, as far as the relationship between

22 the station and the centre was concerned. It's only when he left

23 definitely and a bit before that, too, I found out - perhaps this is a

24 harsh word - that he lied a lot about what was going on in Samac. I

25 think that in August inspectors from the CSB went for the first time to

Page 21102

1 see what the situation was down there, and their findings were that the

2 service was not functioning properly. After that, information was sent

3 to the MUP. Then the MUP intervened by way of sending certain

4 instructions, certain inspectors from the MUP headquarters. Then, again,

5 looking into the situation in Samac. And after that, there was very

6 dynamic activity going on around Samac to establish a system of work

7 there. You saw that I made a few attempts to have him replaced, and so

8 on and so forth.

9 However, the picture was fully completed only after he had left

10 the service, when other people had taken over, and when they established

11 what had been happening there. That's the way it was.

12 Q. So the question, the original question was, please: When did you

13 discover that Mr. Todorovic was committing crimes? Just requires a

14 simple one-line answer, please.

15 A. The first knowledge was related to shortcomings in work. As for

16 crimes, well, only sometime in the autumn. I cannot say anything more

17 specific. However, I knew of his shortcomings already in August and then

18 about the crime, sometime in the autumn.

19 Q. All right. Let's have a look at your various meetings with him,

20 then, shall we? Your diary, please, for the 10th of July.

21 MS. KORNER: It is tab 107C.

22 Q. Have you got your diaries with you?

23 A. Yes, yes. I have it here, and I was told that not everything had

24 been scanned, so I'll let you have it.

25 MS. KORNER: I understand it is 20103.03. I'm told that my

Page 21103

1 giving of the tab number wasn't recorded on the transcript. But it is

2 tab 107C.

3 Q. Does that record a meeting on the 10th of July with the chiefs of

4 the SJBs?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The day before you -- or probably the same day that you went up

7 for the meeting in Belgrade.

8 A. At any rate, it was the day before the Belgrade meeting. And

9 these are the questions that I wanted to deal with, collecting

10 information from the chiefs so that I could provide information at the

11 meeting that followed, status of the employees, inventory of the materiel

12 supplies, report on work, organisation of communications to see where

13 communications function and where they do not and whether there were any

14 special forces, units, and so on, everything that I asked of them at the

15 time.

16 Q. We can assume, can we, from this, that having seen Todorovic and

17 heard his report the day before the meeting, you were perfectly satisfied

18 with what he was telling you. Because you didn't explain to

19 Mico Stanisic about him, did you?

20 A. These are the questions that I needed for the first meeting with

21 the minister. I needed to know what existed in the region, which

22 services, which stations were functioning, how many employees were there.

23 And then later, at the meeting in Belgrade, I presented, during my own

24 remarks, what they had told me about this time. I could not look into

25 their heads. I just heard what each one of them had to say. I did not

Page 21104

1 agree or disagree with him. You see what the questions were that we

2 discussed on that day. This was by way of preparation of the meeting

3 that followed. And then later, we went into some more in-depth reporting

4 as to their reporting about what the situation was in other areas. I'm

5 saying that practice has shown that he did not tell the truth at these

6 meetings. Inspectors found out that he had not been telling the truth

7 and that the situation was different from the way he had presented it.

8 Q. Yes. My simple question was: You didn't see anything wrong, so

9 you didn't complain about him to Mico Stanisic; is that right?

10 A. Yes. Because I was not in Samac at the time, and what he said

11 seemed to be all right. And you see which questions that had to do with.

12 Q. All right.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that be marked for identification,

14 please. Actually, I think there's no objection to these going in.

15 Is that right?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: No objection.

17 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2336, Your Honours.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. Could you move then, please, now to the 16th of August in your

21 diary, which is 107E, and it is 20103.5.

22 Is that another meeting with Todorovic.

23 A. Not with Todorovic only. You see who all the attendees were, but

24 he was one of them, yes.

25 Q. All right. Now, you've told us it was August, or you told the

Page 21105

1 Court when you were answering questions -- Mr. Zecevic, page 19868, it

2 was August that you discovered that -- and you say this was after the

3 inspectors, that there were irregularities going on, as you put them, in

4 Samac; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And, indeed, you suggested at a meeting with Blagoje Simic that

7 Todorovic should be replaced.

8 A. Yes. I did not come there to utter that sentence, but as soon as

9 he saw what we were talking about, he stopped talking.

10 Q. Who stopped talking?

11 A. Simic. Simic. He didn't want to listen to us anymore, neither

12 me nor my co-workers who came with me. I think that in my previous

13 testimony I said how he reacted to this, which words he used, et cetera.

14 Q. All right. Can we go in your diary to the page which has

15 Simic -- Todorovic speaking, sorry, which is, in English, the third page.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, was your meeting with Simic before or after this meeting

18 with Todorovic, on the 16th of August?

19 A. I think it was after this. I think. I cannot say for sure, but

20 I think it was after this.

21 Q. All right. Now, you're suggesting to Mr. Simic that he should be

22 replaced. Did you make the same suggestion to Mico Stanisic or to

23 Mico Stanisic's assistant for public security?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So this would have been in August of about 1992?

Page 21106

1 A. I don't think it was August. I think it was later. It was

2 later.

3 Q. How much later?

4 A. I don't know. Perhaps -- I mean, I'm afraid I'll make a mistake.

5 Perhaps the second half of September; I don't know exactly.

6 Q. Why did you wait so long? I mean, it was clear to you by

7 August that this man was wholly unsuitable to be the chief of the SJB in

8 Samac.

9 A. I am telling you how we came to know how things were functioning

10 there. You see, he is speaking on the 16th of August. What he said -- I

11 mean, on the basis of what he said, it is hard to conclude that there was

12 something wrong. When the inspectors went there, though, because I asked

13 for them to go to all the situation -- to all the stations that were

14 re-established to see what the situation was, and when they saw what the

15 situation was like and when they came back and when they wrote up their

16 reports, then I saw that there were shortcomings there. And then we took

17 things in the right order. First, I asked those who had appointed him to

18 have him replaced because the man showed, according to our initial

19 knowledge, that he really did not find his way there and then that

20 failed. Then we heard more things about the problems that were and then

21 more, so we realised that there were a lot of things that were wrong

22 there and then --

23 Q. I'm sorry --

24 A. And that we were supposed to replace this man. Obviously he

25 could not be head of the station. He could not do that because he did

Page 21107

1 not have the required knowledge and he did not meet any other

2 requirements; moral and others. However, the policy-makers who appointed

3 him did what they did, and you see how he left ultimately.

4 Q. Well, I'm going to go on to that in a moment. But it's all, if I

5 may put it this way, Mr. Bjelosevic, very vague. What was the moral

6 requirement that he did not meet? Wasn't he actually, to your

7 knowledge -- it was being reported to you, he was beating up prisoners

8 personally?

9 A. Yes, that's what I learned later. But when we speak of moral

10 qualities, how can it be normal for somebody to come to a meeting and lie

11 there? To my mind, that is not a moral person who comes to make a report

12 of the situation and lie, and then I hear from my inspectors that there

13 were problems which he didn't want to speak about. That's what I meant

14 when I mentioned moral qualities. But that only surfaced later, his

15 overall conduct.

16 Q. Later, when, please?

17 A. Well, I've just told you. Sometime in the Autumn.

18 Q. Well, you dealt with all the events of November and the

19 inspectors with Mr. Zecevic.

20 So let's have a look, please, what happens in December. Could

21 you look at your diary, please, for the 15th of December.

22 MS. KORNER: And it's tab 107G, and it is 20103.07.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, would you offer the -- [Overlapping

24 speakers] ...

25 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... certainly, yes.

Page 21108

1 Could I have the last entry in October made an exhibit as well,

2 please.

3 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 20103.05 shall be given

5 exhibit number P2337. Thank you.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: It's August. It's not October, sorry, 16th of

7 August.

8 MS. KORNER: Oh, sorry. 16th of August. Thank you.

9 Q. How come Mr. Todorovic is back in Samac on the

10 15th of December, 1992, as chief?

11 A. I don't know how. What do you mean how come he's back?

12 Q. We went through all the documents about him being removed in

13 November because it was clear to everybody that he was committing crimes,

14 and how the roads were blockaded because of that. But he is still chief

15 of the SJB in December 1992, at which stage everybody knows about the

16 crimes he's been committing, don't they?

17 A. Yes. At that time, a lot was known already about his offences.

18 And with my co-workers, I was preparing the elements to launch disciplinary

19 proceedings...However, since he never received [an appointment] decision*

20 from the minister, then such proceedings could not be instituted because

21 he had been appointed by another body. And I think that this must

22 have been his last meeting, and after that, he left the service and found

23 employment with the municipality. And somebody else took over the police

24 station as acting chief.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: This is a really serious mistake in the transcript,

Page 21109

1 and -- or interpretation. But really, really serious.

2 I -- I, indeed, have a big problem with this. Page 24/10, the

3 witness never ever mentioned anything of the kind. 10 and 11. I don't

4 know where it came from. I really don't know. Perhaps we can -- we can

5 listen to the audiotape of this, but I'm really complaining. This is --

6 this is -- this is a serious -- this is a very serious problem, I think.

7 Because something is put on the record which the witness never ever said,

8 nor mentioned. So it's -- it's not a mistake. It's just ...

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think I agree with Mr. Zecevic. It

10 is important this, and I think the audiotape will have to be listened to.

11 Perhaps that can be done over the break.

12 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

13 MS. KORNER: I can carry on. We can come -- I'd like to finish

14 the topic of Samac before the break and then we can go back and listen to

15 this. And then ...

16 JUDGE HALL: It may be helpful if the witness could repeat his

17 answer.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think not. If you forgive me, on

19 this occasion, no. I think we should listen to the tape first.

20 JUDGE HALL: Very well. I think I understand, but, yes. Yes,

21 let's --

22 MS. KORNER: Can I just complete -- we can come -- I will come

23 back to that once we know exactly what was said.

24 Q. You said that was the last meeting. Can you look, please --

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, could I ask that be admitted and

Page 21110

1 marked, that entry for the 31st -- for the 12th -- 15th of December.

2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

3 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Now, can you look, please, at your entry

4 for the 31st of December.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. I apologise. 65 ter 20103.07 shall

6 be given exhibit number P2338. Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

8 Q. Again, do we see a meeting which includes Mr. Todorovic? It is

9 typed as Sabac but that is obviously Samac; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So that wasn't his last meeting because there was another one in

12 December.

13 A. That's possible.

14 Q. And, finally, on the topic of Mr. Todorovic -- not finally

15 because we have to come back to it after the break.

16 Could you have a look, please, at P732.

17 MS. KORNER: I'm not sure what the tab number is. I think

18 it's ... 120. Thank you.

19 If we go, please, to page 12, I think it is. It's page 12 in

20 English. It's number 91 on the list under: Medal for services to the

21 nation. Let's see if I can spot it in B/C/S. Yes, it's page -- it says

22 0296-9864 at the top.

23 That's not the page, sorry. Can you go on, please -- backwards

24 in B/C/S, I think it is. Yep. And number 91 --

25 Q. Is that Stevan Todorovic, chief of Samac SJB, getting a medal

Page 21111

1 in -- I think it's 1993?

2 A. The name under 91 is Stevan Todorovic. And it says that he is

3 chief of the Samac SJB. I don't know what this is about, but I suppose

4 that what you're saying is correct because you have seen the entire

5 document.

6 Q. I can take you back to the front page of this document, in both

7 cases, B/C/S and English. The Official Gazette of Republika Srpska,

8 number 4/93. Looked at Todorovic. We go, please, to the second page in

9 English and the second page, I think, in B/C/S as well, yep, while we're

10 on the topic.

11 At number 12 at the top in B/C/S and halfway down, is that you

12 getting the Karadjordjevic Star, second class?

13 A. Yes, I was decorated with the Karadjordjevic Star, second class.

14 That's a decoration for military accomplishment and merits.

15 Q. [Microphone not activated]... military -- hold on a moment,

16 please. In B/C/S we have to go back to the previous page, please. These

17 are all policemen, everything single one of them, aren't they: Skipina,

18 Mihic, Radovic, Krsic [phoen]?

19 A. That is correct. But the MUP, that is, the police, also took

20 part in armed combat. I only explained the character of the -- or the

21 nature of the decoration. There are various decorations and the

22 Karadjordjevic Star was awarded for military virtues and merits. That

23 was its full name. Many or, well, certainly a number of MUP members were

24 awarded that decoration.

25 Q. Yes. But, to your knowledge, when was Mr. Skipina ever involved

Page 21112

1 in any fighting? Or don't you know anything about Mr. Skipina?

2 A. Skipina who?

3 Q. Slobodan Skipina. One of the assistant ministers.

4 A. Yes, I know who Slobodan Skipina is.

5 Q. When was he ever involved in fighting?

6 A. He didn't have to take part in fighting directly with a rifle.

7 But he may have done some valuable work in the field of intelligence

8 maybe, and that also affected the armed forces and their armed combat and

9 so on.

10 Q. Yes.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that is probably an appropriate moment

12 so we can get the transcript checked.

13 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we return in 20 minutes.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, before the witness is brought in, we

18 clarified the situation, and I would like to -- but -- to say that my

19 comment which I made was inappropriate.

20 I -- I would like to extend my apologies to the interpreters,

21 because, definitely, there was a mistake in the -- in the translation,

22 and Ms. Korner can read what we had agreed was said. But I understood

23 only when I was reviewing the audiotape I understood how hard their work

24 is, and that the mistake which was made was obviously an honest mistake.

25 So, therefore, I'm sorry.

Page 21113

1 And Ms. Korner can read what the witness actually said.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we had somebody with Mr. Zecevic

4 listening to the tape, and what was said was:

5 "With my co-workers, I was preparing to start disciplinary

6 proceedings. Since he never received his appointment from the minister,

7 and since he was appointed by another body ..."

8 And that's the most -- I think the effect was definitely: We

9 could do nothing.

10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

11 And, Mr. Zecevic, the -- I'm sure the interpreters are

12 appreciative of your gracious apology on the record, since your comments

13 had been made on the record. Thank you.

14 [The witness takes the stand]

15 MS. KORNER:

16 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, before the break, you were explaining that

17 although you had been preparing disciplinary proceedings against

18 Todorovic, you couldn't take them because he'd been appointed, in effect,

19 by the Crisis Staff.

20 What was to stop Mico Stanisic giving him a retrospective

21 appointment and then taking the disciplinary proceedings, because we know

22 this happened in a number of occasions?

23 A. Well, probably the fact that his appointment by the minister

24 would amount to the acceptance of the way he worked. I suppose that's

25 it, that he disapproved of the way Stevan Todorovic worked and behaved.

Page 21114

1 Q. Well, why wasn't he -- and you may not be able to answer this,

2 but why wasn't he given a retrospective appointment if, as far as you

3 were concerned, until later, when you found out about his crimes and his

4 bad management, why couldn't he have been given a retrospective

5 appointment, say, somewhere between April and whenever you say you found

6 out, September?

7 And if you don't know the answer, say so.

8 A. Well, I don't know.

9 Q. All right. But are you saying that simply because he had been

10 appointed by the Crisis Staff, there was absolutely no legal method to

11 remove a SJB chief who had been committing crimes and not running the

12 police station properly? Is that what you're saying?

13 A. In order to launch disciplinary proceedings, legally speaking --

14 Q. No --

15 A. It was --

16 Q. I'm sorry, I understand what you are saying about disciplinary

17 proceedings. But are you saying that he couldn't have been arrested?

18 A. Well, you saw how the situation developed when the army arrested

19 him. I think that will be the most telling answer. It was possible, but

20 you saw what happened. The entire municipality leadership raised some

21 military forces, and the police was ordered to block the corridor. I

22 understand you, from your perspective and from the vantage point of

23 today, after so much time it may be difficult to understand. But

24 figuratively speaking, I was in a position to sniff the end of a barrel

25 pointed at my head several times, and it was easy to get killed at those

Page 21115

1 times.

2 Q. And, in fact, Todorovic remained chief of the SJB, didn't he,

3 until 1994, didn't he?

4 A. 1994? No.

5 Q. 1994, that's what I suggest to you, Mr. Bjelosevic. That's how

6 long he was chief of the SJB for.

7 A. I don't think so.

8 Q. You don't agree, all right. Finally on Samac, please, can I ask

9 to you to look at this document, which is tab -- sorry. Exhibit 21 --

10 20100, 2100, and it's tab 105. If it makes it easier for you, I will

11 give you a large copy.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the number.

13 MS. KORNER: 2100, please. 65 ter number. Sorry, it's 65 ter

14 number. Tab 105.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I think the correct 65 ter is 20101. That's

16 tab 105. That's crime report register.

17 MS. KORNER: Daily events log-book, Samac. Sorry, my note is in

18 error. 20101.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Bjelosevic, while we are waiting for this

20 document to come up on the screen, I'd like to ask you why it was that

21 you couldn't have filed disciplinary proceedings against Mr. Todorovic in

22 any case? Was that because you thought that the Crisis Staff, who had

23 appointed Mr. Todorovic, would not have approved of such proceedings?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff wouldn't have

25 approved his replacement. And it didn't. And it -- and disciplinary

Page 21116

1 proceedings is a legal category. Whoever was appointed to a position

2 could be subject to disciplinary proceedings, but if they weren't, then

3 it wasn't possible because it wouldn't be correct legally.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: So are you saying that the reason why

5 disciplinary proceedings could not have been instituted against

6 Mr. Todorovic was that he hadn't been appointed by the minister.

7 Was that the reason?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because there was no ministry

9 decision on his appointment. I'm not a lawyer, but the lawyers that we

10 had at the CSB at the time explained it to me this way.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: So in the period where we know that a number of

12 persons were appointed by the Crisis Staffs, in all those instances,

13 those who had been appointed were immune from disciplinary proceedings.

14 Is that correctly understood?

15 A. No. Not all legal proceedings, but disciplinary proceedings,

16 yes, to use your phrase, they were immune because there was no legal

17 foundation for disciplinary proceedings.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. [Microphone not activated]... can I ask that you be given a

21 printout.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, again I have to apologise for the fact

23 it was photographed with a sticker on it, to show what it was.

24 Q. Do you recognise that book, Mr. Bjelosevic?

25 A. No. What I can see on the cover is -- I can only read the dates,

Page 21117

1 12 February 1992 through 27 December 1992.

2 Q. In the course of your visit to Bosanski Samac station and your

3 inspection effectively, did you never ask to see the daily events

4 log-book?

5 A. I think you misunderstood who inspected the organisational units.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated] ...

7 A. It wasn't me. It was the inspectors, according to the lines of

8 work. And when you were talking about the crime investigation

9 department, it was the crime inspector.

10 Q. Well, I suppose there's not much I can do with this, but do you

11 have any reason to doubt that that is the Samac daily events log-book?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I think it calls for speculation. If the

13 witness said he never saw the book --

14 MS. KORNER: All right.

15 Q. Would you accept - I think that is the most can I take on this

16 document -- would you accept that Samac, the police station, the SJB

17 there, was actually working throughout the period the 12th of -- well,

18 this book is the 12th of February through until the 27th of December?

19 A. From the 12th of February?

20 Q. Yep.

21 A. Yes. I don't know -- well, this initial period, yes, February.

22 But the initial period -- or, rather, the second half of April --

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. -- May, June, I don't know.

25 Q. All right.

Page 21118

1 A. I don't know how things functioned there then. But --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. I find -- I don't know. I haven't seen this and I really

4 wouldn't want to comment on it.

5 Q. So you have never ever, ever checked at any stage, through all

6 the fuss and botheration about Todorovic, the daily events log-book.

7 That's effectively what you're saying, isn't it?

8 A. It's not only that I didn't directly look at the books in Samac.

9 I didn't look at the books directly in any station.

10 Q. All right. I'll move on then. That's all I want to ask you

11 about Samac. I want to ask you about the dismissal of Obren Petrovic.

12 Now you said to the Court when you came back that you wanted to

13 deal with that in closed session or in private session, I should say. I

14 want to show you one document. Let's see how we go from there, shall we?

15 MS. KORNER: Could we have up, please, document 65 ter 20128,

16 tab 84A.

17 Now can we go, please, in it to the third page in English and

18 also in B/C/S.

19 Q. Is that your signature and stamp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have a copy of this document at home?

22 A. No. The documents I had I brought. I cannot recall this coming

23 from me.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we can barely hear the

25 witness.

Page 21119

1 MS. KORNER: Sorry. My fault again. Microphone.

2 Your Honours, this document was actually acquired, as I said to

3 the Court, after the Court adjourned on the last occasion when

4 Mr. Bjelosevic finished his evidence in-chief.

5 Can we go back, please, to the front page.

6 Q. This is a letter addressed to the minister, is that right, to the

7 Ministry of Interior which, at that stage, had gone to Bijeljina. And

8 it's obviously in 1993; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it lists the complaints. It's the recommendation that

11 Petrovic should be removed. And it lists the matters that are complained

12 about. And I'd like to go, please, to the second page in English --

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I'm really sorry because on the page

14 that we were looking, I note that the parts are missing from the English

15 translation. Namely, the number and the date on the first page are

16 missing from -- if we can have the first page, please, back.

17 MS. KORNER: It is back. It's on the screen. Oh, I see.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: The English translation doesn't contain the number

19 and the date of the document.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much --

21 MR. ZECEVIC: It should be to the left from the official secret,

22 strictly confidential, yes.

23 MS. KORNER: That's fine. And it's dated the

24 12th of January, 1993.

25 I'm going to ask for this document to be fully admitted at the

Page 21120

1 end, Your Honours. We'll send it back for a corrected translation.

2 Can we go then, please, to the second page in English again, and

3 I believe that the first -- yes. Stay on the first page in B/C/S.

4 Q. Don't worry about your diary, Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm not interested

5 in the meeting. It's the contents of the document.

6 One of the complaints is at the bottom of the page in B/C/S but

7 at the top of the page in English:

8 "Appointed and placed managers in the police without running the

9 necessary checks or acquiring the approval of the centre chief, some of

10 whom were professional criminals."

11 Now, Mr. Bjelosevic, according to you, for two months you were

12 out of contact with the CSB. It didn't exist. And he and you were off

13 with the military. Wasn't it slightly hypothetical, if I can put it that

14 way, to complain that he had appointed people without consulting you?

15 A. You said he and I. You mean Petrovic, that he was in the

16 military as well? I don't know who you meant when you said that I and

17 he were --

18 Q. I didn't say that. I'm slightly concerned also about

19 translation.

20 A. That's the interpretation I received, believe me.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: It's in the record, "And he and you ..."

22 MS. KORNER: And it's all right. Mr. Zecevic, please. I

23 understand there is a problem with interpretation.

24 Q. I will repeat the question: You complain in this document to the

25 minister and various other people that he appointed people to the police

Page 21121

1 without your approval.

2 A. If we take a careful look at this document, first, we have to see

3 what its heading says, and we should say, therefore, what the subject is,

4 and then we will see that these are excerpts from a record, from minutes,

5 that were compiled at a meeting that was attended by certain persons.

6 You see that down here, "the meeting was attended by," and then the

7 attendees are listed.

8 So this is a summary of the meeting of all the discussion that

9 took place. So your statement to the effect that on this occasion or by

10 way of this document I am complaining or something is not the case. This

11 is it an excerpt from the minutes and all the discussions are contained

12 there.

13 Q. I --

14 A. What I said, and what is the way it was, is what is contained

15 here in my notebook.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. If you wish for us to discuss this in detail, point by point, I

18 stand ready.

19 Q. No, I don't, Mr. Bjelosevic. Not for one moment do I wish to do

20 that.

21 I want to ask you about two parts. So are you saying it was not

22 you that made the complaint that he had appointed people to the police

23 without the checks or getting your approval. Somebody else said that.

24 That's -- just requires a yes or no. Doesn't require anything else.

25 A. Well, I have to. As far as the document is concerned, I just

Page 21122

1 wanted to draw your attention to what the subject of the document is.

2 And what the document is entitled. As far as my complaints are concerned

3 with regard to the behaviour of Obren Petrovic at the time, I can deal

4 with that point by point, and I sent this to the minister. What is

5 contained in my notebook, that is mine; whereas this pertains to all the

6 participants in the meeting. That is why I suggest that we make a

7 distinction between the two. My position, my remarks and my proposal,

8 the explanations are all there; whereas this is a discussion, or rather,

9 a record of the discussion that all the participants in the meeting

10 participated in. I had some objections, and I know to this day who could

11 be found in the service, especially in the ranks of the reserve police,

12 to this day, I object to that.

13 Q. Right. Now please, Mr. Bjelosevic, answer my question yes or no:

14 Did you make the complaint, as is recorded in these minutes, that he had

15 appointed people to the police without the checks or your approval?

16 That's all I want to know.

17 A. Yes. People were received in the reserve police. They were

18 admitted into the reserve police and the station, apart from prescribed

19 procedures, rules and criteria.

20 Q. I -- I -- I've asked the question three times. You don't want to

21 answer it. We'll move on.

22 The next -- one of the other complaints was, through their

23 inexplicable actions, extracted imprisoned Muslims and Croats, and for

24 money, transfer them to the Federal Republic of Serbia, and then this:

25 "Retained two female workers of Muslim ethnicity which resulted

Page 21123

1 in the justified revolt amongst the fighters."

2 Was it your view that he should not retained in the police

3 station two female workers of Muslim ethnicity or was it somebody else's?

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I think, Your Honours, I suggest that we should go

5 in private session about this answer. And just one more note.

6 MS. KORNER: It's not --

7 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness -- I'm sorry, Ms. Korner. 37/22, the

8 witness said "yes" to the question. The question is:

9 "Did you make the complaint as he recorded in these minutes that

10 he had appointed people to the police without the checks on your

11 approval? That's all I want to know.

12 "A. Yes, people were received ...," and then it goes on.

13 And then the comment by Ms. Korner:

14 "I have the question three times. You don't want to answer it.

15 We'll move on."

16 It is clear that the witness answered and explained. Now I think

17 we should go in a private session.

18 MS. KORNER: I don't think it's a matter for Mr. Zecevic to

19 decide whether or not we go into private session. It's a matter for this

20 witness with an explanation, Your Honours, why we should be in private

21 session.

22 JUDGE HALL: I was just about to say the same thing, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

24 Q. Do you want to go into private session, Mr. Bjelosevic?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 21125

1 complained that he had retained Muslim workers which had resulted in a

2 justified revolt?

3 A. No. But I wished to explain this, how things went at the

4 meeting, in private session. But it seems to me that that is not being

5 allowed, how this wording came to be --

6 Q. Right, well --

7 A. -- in the first places.

8 Q. Any further explanation, Mr. Zecevic, who wants to take it from

9 you, can in-chief [sic].

10 My question is simply that: Are you prepared to say who it was

11 who made that remark in open session?

12 A. I would leave this for private session.

13 Q. Finally, on this document:

14 "Those present unanimously adopted the following conclusions:

15 The CSB chief propose appointments and they be in accordance with the

16 representative of the authorities in politics that an interview be

17 conducted with the SJB chief and that he be confronted with all the

18 failures."

19 Did you conduct an interview with Mr. Petrovic?

20 A. What is happening? I didn't hear half of the interpretation.

21 Could you please repeat the interpretation.

22 Q. Yes. The -- the -- the -- the document goes on that you signed

23 to suggest that an interview be conducted with the SJB chief and that he

24 be confronted with all the failures hampering the further work of the

25 Doboj SJB.

Page 21126

1 Did you conduct an interview with Mr. Petrovic?

2 A. With Chief Petrovic?

3 Q. Yes, with Chief Petrovic.

4 A. Yes. I spoke to him after this and before this meeting, too,

5 several times. And after this meeting, I did talk to him.

6 Q. And did you, during the course of this meeting, tell him that he

7 was being removed because it was thought that he was being too friendly

8 with Muslims?

9 A. Oh, no. No.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. This is ... well, let it remain for private session.

12 Q. All right.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I do ask that this document which was

14 referred to by Mr. Petrovic, but it took a long time to get a hold of it,

15 it was only received, as I say, the Monday, I think it is now two weeks

16 ago.

17 So may I ask that that be fully admitted.

18 JUDGE HALL: Is --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, you were about to say something.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, there is a standing objection, Your Honours,

22 and I think we agreed that all the new documents where we object will not

23 be admitted but MFI'd until we make our submissions concerning the fresh

24 evidence.

25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so it be marked for identification.

Page 21127

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2339, marked for identification,

2 Your Honours.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. I want to turn now to the 11th of July meeting. You, as we have

5 already seen, recorded that on the --

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, just for the -- for the -- for the record,

7 the Registrar 41/1 -- 42/1, Exhibit P2339. It should say "marked for

8 identification." Sorry.

9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10 MS. KORNER: Sorry. [Microphone not activated]

11 Q. 11th of July. We've seen that you had on the 10th of July, a

12 meeting of your SJB chiefs in preparation for the 11th of July meeting.

13 And you've already been taken through, by Mr. Krgovic, your entry for the

14 11th of July meeting in Belgrade.

15 Is there a reason why you didn't record -- you recorded some of

16 what Zupljanin said. Is there any reason why you didn't record his

17 remarks, even in a sentence, about the prison camps that were being run

18 in Prijedor by the police?

19 A. You know how things are when you are taking handwritten notes

20 yourself while someone is speaking. Some things you manage to jot down,

21 you miss others, and my priority were the problems that I wished to speak

22 about. In passing, I tried to jot down the problems in the other

23 centres. So there's no problem involved there, in terms of why some

24 things are written down and others are not. Some things I managed to

25 write down; others I didn't.

Page 21128

1 Q. Yes. But you were having the same problem, weren't you, in

2 Doboj, in that, you know, people were being held by police in centres

3 which were not official prisons?

4 A. What I had to say, I said at the meeting then, and that is

5 contained in the minutes.

6 Q. All right. Now, according to you, on the 12th of July, you

7 stayed on in Belgrade to have a meeting with Mico Stanisic; is that

8 correct?

9 A. After the meeting on the 11th of July, we spent the night in

10 Belgrade, and, on the next day, with regard to specific problems, we had

11 the opportunity to meet the representative of the national security, with

12 the head of the sector for national security, and where there was the

13 head of the sector for public security, he spoke to the assistant, at the

14 time the under-secretary in charge of public security, and we had

15 discussions along those lines on the next day. I think that with the

16 minister, I briefly presented the Teslic problems on the 12th of July.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. As for the chief of sector of the state security or national

19 security, he stayed considerably longer with the under-secretary for

20 state security. After that was over, we met up and went back to Doboj.

21 Q. When was that meeting? In the morning?

22 A. Well, I think we met up at that villa around 11.00, I think.

23 Q. So what time were you back in Doboj?

24 A. Well, when the chief of national security was done, he stayed

25 considerably longer at his meeting. Then we went to lunch, and then we

Page 21129

1 left some time in the afternoon. I don't know what time it could have

2 been.

3 Q. So were you back in Doboj by 6.30 in the evening?

4 A. I don't know what time it was. But it was just before sunset,

5 dusk. I really don't know what time it was.

6 Q. Well, that time of year, that would make it later than 6.30,

7 wouldn't it?

8 A. Well, if we take into account the fact that it is summertime, it

9 was probably later, but I know that we came at dusk. And before Doboj,

10 there was fighting, and there were quite a few wounded and killed. And I

11 know that I went to the hospital to see the wounded up there, and I saw

12 Nenad Kujundzic then who was already in a coma.

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. He was taken to Banja Luka, and he never came to.

15 Q. Don't worry about that. How is it that in this important series

16 of meetings that you had on the 12th of July, there's not a single note

17 in your diary? It is completely blank.

18 A. Well, I am telling you, if the chief of national security had a

19 meeting with his boss, in terms of his line of work, then he wrote that

20 down. I don't see how this series of meeting crops up all of a sudden.

21 I never mentioned a series. I said that I met up with the minister

22 briefly. And I asked that I be allowed to explain briefly what I know

23 about the Teslic case, since I was the one who presented those problems,

24 I didn't write it down, and I already told you that the head of state

25 security -- no, national security, as it was called at the time, had a

Page 21130

1 longer meeting with his superior. So there was no series of meetings.

2 Q. You didn't record anywhere, do you, in your diary, that you had a

3 meeting with the minister or with the representatives of the national

4 security sector. It's completely blank that page, isn't it? Don't --

5 it's as simple as that, isn't it? There is no entry.

6 A. I don't know if you understood me properly --

7 Q. Yes -- no, I understand your explanation.

8 A. -- or if it was interpreted correctly.

9 Q. I understood your explanation. But you had a meeting with the

10 minister, had you a meeting with national security. You did not record

11 anything in your diary, did you?

12 A. With the under-secretary for national security, it wasn't me who

13 had a meeting with him, but it was the chief of national -- the national

14 security department from Doboj. Could that have been misinterpreted? I

15 think I stated that clearly enough earlier.

16 Q. You know exactly why this is important, don't you,

17 Mr. Bjelosevic, because on the 12th of July, the Petro Dan [phoen], there

18 occurred in Doboj an attack, didn't there?

19 A. Yes, I've just said as much.

20 Q. Started at about 6.30 in the evening and a number of Muslim

21 prisoners were taken out and used as human shields, weren't they?

22 A. I heard of that.

23 Q. Yeah. You not only heard about it, I suggest, Mr. Bjelosevic,

24 you were involved in it. Because you instructed the police that a human

25 shield should be used but should be -- human shields, I should -- but

Page 21131

1 should be treated humanely?

2 A. I apologise, but what you have just said is simply not true.

3 Q. Can you look for a moment, please, at -- sorry.

4 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honours just give me one moment. I've

5 just lost my note.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MS. KORNER: 20034, please, tab 97.

8 Q. Now, this is --

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, what is the date of this document?

10 MS. KORNER: This is a newspaper apparently called "Alternativa."

11 And it's an interview with Major Stankovic, and he is being asked about

12 the events of Doboj.

13 Q. Did you read the article at the time it came out?

14 A. I don't remember I did. Could it be enlarged?

15 MS. KORNER: Can we -- yeah, somebody has asked for it to be

16 enlarged. Can we try to get into --

17 Q. I can probably give you a hard copy of it ... [indiscernible]

18 Now I want you --

19 MS. KORNER: Can we go, please, to the second page in B/C/S, and

20 to the third -- sorry. Sixth page in English.

21 Q. Now, it's not a great copy, I agree. Is there a bit there

22 headed: "Paying the butcher's bill for Saint Peter's Day"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And was Saint Peter's Day --

25 A. If you're going to ask me about this, let me read it first.

Page 21132

1 Q. I just want to know -- certainly I will.

2 Was Saint Peter's Day the 12th of July?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'd like you to read, please, then that part --

5 A. Which part of the text?

6 Q. Underneath: "Paying the butcher's bill for Saint Peter's Day." I

7 can give you a --

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated]

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Mine's marked, I'm afraid.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Ooh, this is very small

11 print.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. All right. It may be easier on the screen.

14 MS. KORNER: Could we go to the next page in English.

15 Q. All right. Mr. Bjelosevic, all I want to ask you about is one

16 sentence: Is it right, as Mr. Stankovic alleged in this newspaper

17 interview, that on that day, the 12th of July, after arriving in Doboj,

18 in agreement with you, and owing to the critical situation at Vila, he

19 sent Predrag or Predo's Wolves into battle?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Because according to you, you weren't in Doboj on 12th of July;

22 is that right?

23 A. I wasn't until the evening hours and we didn't speak about this.

24 This statement is not true, that we spoke on that day and that he

25 consulted me about Predo's Wolves. That is positively untrue. I don't

Page 21133

1 know where this came from.

2 Q. But, you see, the evidence that we've had says that it was police

3 officers who used these men as human shields, or took them out and used

4 them as human shields. Are you saying they did this without any order at

5 all from you?

6 A. Most certainly not from me. I heard various versions and

7 accounts of these events, but I don't know what is true. Now I've read

8 this too, but this certainly is not true. I don't know where this story

9 came from.

10 Q. All right. We can leave that document. We can leave the topic

11 of the 11th of July and the human shields incident.

12 And can we move, please, generally, to the paramilitary aspect, a

13 little bit more about that.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, I'm sorry, but the document that you

15 were referring to about the 11th of June, it was, or May, that

16 Mr. Krgovic was leading the witness through, was that tab 5 of

17 Mr. Krgovic's binder.

18 MS. KORNER: 11th of July.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: 11th of July, yes.

20 MS. KORNER: I think so, Your Honours. I'll just check that.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: And if so, it has not been tendered. We do

22 agree.

23 MS. KORNER: No, it's not tab 5, it's tab -- oh yes, it is tab 5.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: It has not been tendered, if I'm not wrong.

25 MS. KORNER: Oh. I thought it had been tendered by Mr. Krgovic.

Page 21134

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't think so. But I can be wrong.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MS. KORNER: If not, Your Honour, then certainly I'd wish to

4 tender it.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]... document,

7 Ms. Korner, referred to at page 42/9 -- 10 and 11.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: If I can be of assistance, Your Honours. I believe

9 it is Ms. Korner's tab 107D. That's the diary of -- dated the 11 July.

10 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]... if it is not tendered

11 by Mr. Krgovic - I assumed it had been - then I will tender it.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]... now it does. 107D

13 is not tendered either. So we could give it an exhibit number under this

14 tab number -- under this number, yes.

15 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]... I supposed it should

16 have gone in as a Defence.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: As a Defence.

18 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

20 MS. KORNER: I can't turn it on.

21 Right. Your Honours, if it wasn't tendered by Mr. Krgovic, and

22 despite the fact he gave it a 2D number -- oh, he is saying he did tender

23 it.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did he?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated] ... all diaries, so

Page 21135

1 that's why I didn't ask them to tender -- that was my point. So I

2 support that it should be tendered, all diary.

3 MS. KORNER: No, I'm going to object to the whole diary going in,

4 just the page numbers that are actually referred to, because it becomes

5 impossible, if nobody has ever gone through an entry. So there's a

6 submission Mr. Krgovic can make, if he wants to, but that's objected to.

7 So shall we make the individual, please, an exhibit.

8 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: As Defence?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: It should be 65 ter 20103.04 which is tab 107D, and

11 it should be the P number ...

12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13 MR. ZECEVIC: But it's the very same document, I think.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes, but did we give it a P number.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: All others have been given the P numbers.

16 MS. KORNER: That's what I mean.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: And I don't have an objection. I mean ...

18 MS. KORNER: Let's just get admitted under whatever number is

19 necessary.

20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, we are -- there is a slight

21 classification problem that we're trying to resolve.

22 The -- you had indicated that for your purposes, you would have

23 wished to put the whole diary in, and Ms. Korner has recorded her

24 objection. In terms of the particular page that is now before us, the

25 issue is whether it should be identified as a -- as a Defence exhibit or

Page 21136

1 a Prosecution Exhibit. And, Ms. Korner, we're trying to remind ourselves

2 as to what we have done heretofore, in terms of these pages.

3 Can you remind me?

4 MS. KORNER: Well, I don't know -- I hadn't appreciated that

5 Mr. Krgovic had not made any of them exhibits on the grounds that he was

6 going to ask for the whole diary to be moved, which did he not ask at the

7 time he finished his cross-examination.

8 So if none of them have gone into evidence, then forgetting

9 about -- well, I mean, are they uploaded into e-court under a Defence

10 number because if they are, then it will have to be the Defence number

11 which becomes a Prosecution Exhibit, or are they uploaded under a

12 Prosecution 65 ter?

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, under --

14 MS. KORNER: Under Defence --

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Overlapping speakers]... Defence 2.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, it better be the Defence number that becomes a

17 P exhibit.

18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I'm hearing Mr. Smith because we

20 have had this slight problem before. It should go under a Defence

21 number, apparently because it is Mr. Krgovic who referred to it first.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you talking now about an exhibit number?

23 MS. KORNER: Exhibit number.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Defence exhibit number?

25 MS. KORNER: Defence exhibit number, yeah. Otherwise it does

Page 21137

1 lead to horrible confusion. It has a Defence 65 ter.

2 JUDGE HALL: I fear that as well. I think it would be simpler to

3 classify it as a Defence exhibit.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D138, Your Honours.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Just for the purposes of the clear record, can the

6 Registrar please read the 65 ter number of this document which has been

7 admitted as Exhibit 2D138.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have it. If I'm not wrong, it is it 2D011169.

9 2D10 -- sorry, 1169. 2D101169.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 MS. KORNER:

12 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic, we have just looked at Predrag's Wolves being

13 used. And you identified, which I'm not going to ask you to look at

14 again, a document where you ordered the arrest of the so-called

15 Luis Group, should they materialise in Doboj, which was 1D00466, but I

16 don't want it up.

17 I want you to look, please, at a report done by

18 Colonel-now-General Tolimir, at P591, tab 39B.

19 Have you seen this report by Colonel Tolimir dated the 13th of

20 August before?

21 A. I couldn't say before I look at the document and read it.

22 Q. All right. Sorry, it's 28th of July although it's -- all right.

23 Well, just look at the front page, please, and tell us whether you've

24 seen it before.

25 A. I don't remember having seen this document.

Page 21138

1 Q. All right. Well, I just want to ask you about one part of it.

2 It mentions the Luis Group at page --

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm -- I'm terribly sorry to interrupt you,

4 Ms. Korner. It's just not our day. The LiveNote has stopped on my ...

5 on my monitor.

6 JUDGE HALL: We're three minutes short of the break. We may as

7 well take the break at this point and come back --

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've lost all together about half an

9 hour today. We can sit till late and over this business of checking the

10 note. I wonder if I could have an extra half-hour today, if that's

11 possible because I will definitely conclude.

12 JUDGE HALL: Tacked on to the end of the very-end-of-the-day

13 session?

14 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

15 JUDGE HALL: We'll hear the Defence response of the -- over the

16 break, the usual inquiries could be made.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much. Then I will definitely

18 conclude my examination-in-chief today --

19 [The witness stands down]

20 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE HALL: While the witness is on his way in, I believe that

24 counsel and everyone else has been alerted that we will sit straight

25 through until 2.15.

Page 21139

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours we have, and I'm very, very grateful to

2 everybody, Your Honours, and counsel, and the interpreters.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE HALL: And, of course, the accused.

5 MS. KORNER: And them too.

6 Q. Right. Mr. Bjelosevic, I just wanted you to have a look, please,

7 at one part of this document. It talks -- or two parts. Page 3 in

8 English, and page 3 also in B/C/S.

9 A. Both are in English.

10 Q. Yes, you're getting it now. Do you see the paragraph at the

11 bottom in B/C/S, talking about the war staff in Banja Luka, then Nikodin

12 Cavic, finally and then we see war staffs were formed, one for Modrica is

13 headed by Dusan Tosic, aka Luis. Is that the same Luis that you were

14 talking about in that document?

15 A. Well, probably. Having read this, it's becoming clearer to me

16 why Nikodin Cavic and a couple of armed men were chasing me around. Now

17 I am -- it's dawning on me how this was part of the system.

18 Q. Right. And can we now look, please, in English at page 5. And

19 in B/C/S, at page 5 as well.

20 The paragraph in English is the third one; and in B/C/S, it is

21 the fourth, or fifth, which begins:

22 "A special police unit under the command of a certain Kujundzic

23 has been established in the village of Stanari in the municipality of

24 Doboj ... consists of about 80 men who are mainly involved in setting up

25 check-points which they use for their criminal activities."

Page 21140

1 Is that Predrag's Wolves?

2 A. If Predo's Wolves are meant, then two things are wrong here.

3 Namely, the village of Stanari, because that's not where they are from;

4 and I don't think they had as many men. They must have had fewer than

5 this.

6 Q. Yes. And it says it's a special police unit. And it was a

7 special police unit, wasn't it?

8 A. Oh, well, I don't know what kind of idea individual people have

9 about the special police. It's a fact that if we're talking about

10 Predo's Wolves, for a while, they were members of the reserve police of

11 the Doboj SJB. That's -- that much is true.

12 Q. Yes. So what is described by everybody as a paramilitary

13 organisation was actually part and parcel of the MUP, wasn't it?

14 A. Only for a certain time-period. If it is important, let me say

15 they were established, or mobilised, as a military unit. And they were

16 members of the military for a part of May, as far as I remember, early

17 May. Then they became renegades and acted autonomously on their own.

18 Later, they joined the reserve police for a time-period.

19 Q. Well, you see, what I want to know, Mr. Bjelosevic, is why? You

20 issued this order to arrest Luis's group. Why aren't you issuing orders

21 to rest this man's group?

22 A. I think that question should be put to Chief Petrovic to answer.

23 Q. But you're back in Doboj by July when they're still operating,

24 because we've just seen that. Why didn't you issue the order as the

25 chief of the CSB?

Page 21141

1 A. In a later period, the station chief decided about reserve police

2 stations, one of which was at Suho Polje. That's the area of Ozren where

3 they were located and they were the staff of the reserve police station

4 at Suho Polje.

5 And if I understood correctly, that's one of the reasons why I

6 wanted to remove Chief Petrovic to have him replaced.

7 Q. So the fact that nothing was done about removing these criminals

8 from the Doboj police ranks is, again, due to Petrovic and not you; is

9 that right?

10 A. Well, I don't know if you understood what I was saying correctly.

11 I was warning Petrovic about that, and more than once, he

12 expressed fear. He said he was afraid of them. And, finally, he adopted

13 such a decision that he transferred them to the reserve police at Suho

14 Polje.

15 Q. Could you look, please, at document which is part of the Defence

16 documents, which is Defence 00212 -- 00212D1, I think. And it's Defence

17 tab 100. I can't remember whether it was made an exhibit or not, I'm

18 afraid.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the usher please give the binder to the

20 witness.

21 MS. KORNER: Not an exhibit. All right.

22 Your Honours, the English translation is not going to help much,

23 but -- because they don't list all the names.

24 Q. But does this say this is a submission of individual lists of

25 wounded and killed persons. And if we look at the last page in English

Page 21142

1 and the last page in B/C/S, is that signed by you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if we then, please, go back in B/C/S - and it won't help

4 anywhere else, I am afraid, in English, to page 1, 2, 3, 4 -- 3. And if

5 we highlight number 30, please.

6 A. That's page 2 then.

7 Q. Yes, page 2 in -- on the top. We've got it on the screen.

8 Is that Predrag Kujundzic, who we've just been talking about?

9 A. I think so.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is a Defence document, so I take

12 it there's no objection to this being admitted an exhibited.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: This is a list of killed and wounded members of

15 CSB Doboj.

16 MS. KORNER: Yeah.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

19 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2340, Your Honours.

22 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour, can I just check one thing in my

23 notes. Yes. Same topic. Could we have tab 60 -- sorry. Tab 68 in our

24 bundle, not in the Defence bundle. And it's document 20020.

25 Q. Clearly, this man is still alive in August. And on the 28th of

Page 21143

1 September, apparently information is being sent to inform the CSB Doboj

2 that Mr. Kujundzic, a worker of CSB Doboj, acquired for himself and his

3 group, 70 kilos of jewellery, foreign money and in the course of

4 cleansing of the village of Civcije, the municipality -- his group handed

5 350.000 German marks to him. And it's all about looting.

6 Did you get this report, Mr. Bjelosevic, in September?

7 A. I did not receive this. At least I do not remember having

8 received it. But I did receive certain notes that indicate their

9 criminal activity, and this came from several sources, the security

10 organs of the military, and some inspectors. But this, I do not recall

11 having received.

12 I received information also through observations. There's a lot

13 to be said. I don't know how interesting it is. Precisely because they

14 knew that I was making efforts to have them eliminated from the reserve

15 milicija. There were threats. There were -- they were trying to agree

16 on having me assassinated. I did not bring any of these notes here, but

17 there was knowledge to that effect, and I had been warned directly, as

18 well. For a while, I did not even sleep at my own apartment --

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the

20 sentence.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a dangerous group.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. All right. So you -- were you aware even if you say you didn't

24 get this document, were you aware of the information contained therein?

25 A. Well, never, until now. I think I did not hear of these

Page 21144

1 quantities of gold and jewellery. But they had vehicles where their

2 reserve police station was. There was knowledge to that effect. It was

3 documented, too. On one occasion, I asked the chief of the station to

4 establish that directly and to see what was there and what was not there,

5 but I never received that. He always said that he was afraid of them and

6 that it is best for them to be there, that they are the least dangerous

7 over there, and that is where they are the most peaceful.

8 Q. But we saw in connection with the Luis Group that the military

9 had been involved in trying to arrest them as well, which is why you were

10 sending out that notice. Why, if this was such a dangerous group and you

11 needed to great rid of them, arrest them, didn't you ask for assistance

12 from the military?

13 A. If I tell you that Predrag Kujundzic put a pistol against

14 Major Stankovic's head, perhaps the answer will come to you straightaway.

15 Numerically, they were far stronger than Luis's Group. And

16 Luis's Group was more brutal, yes, but there were fewer of them there,

17 and it was easier to overcome them in that location where they were.

18 So both reasons worked in favour of that being done. Don't think

19 that assessments were not being made. They were. However, it would have

20 been very bloody if someone wanted to have a showdown with them, arrest

21 them or do anything of the kind.

22 Attempts were made to put parts of them in the military --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the

24 sentence.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when they were located in Suho

Page 21145

1 Polje, part of them went to the army. The entire teem team was not

2 together, the entire unit.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. Sir, do I understand this correctly, and again this can be

5 answered very simply yes or no, the combined police force in Doboj and

6 the combined military together, were not able to arrest this man and his

7 group; is that right? They were frightened.

8 A. That could have been done probably, but the question is: What

9 the price would be and how many casualties would be involved.

10 Q. All right. Can I ask then you finally, two further documents on

11 this topic of personnel in the police. Could you have a look please at

12 2D89 MFI'd, which is at tab 14E.

13 It's not in your bundles, Mr. Bjelosevic.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this the one, the document we keep

15 having an argument with Mr. Krgovic. So the new translation is not in

16 e-court, but we'll put it in Sanction, because, at the moment, as you

17 remember, Mr. Krgovic wants CLSS to have another go at translating it.

18 So it's in Sanction, please, this translation.

19 Q. Now, this is, Mr. Bjelosevic, again, a payroll for the CSB Doboj,

20 5th Company -- no, sorry, I'm looking at the wrong one. It's not. It's

21 a payroll ... for the 9th Company for special assignments. But it's

22 headed: "Doboj."

23 And can you identify the signature at the bottom? I think it's a

24 familiar one.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the beginning of

Page 21146

1 the sentence.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recognise the signature in

3 the middle. It is mine.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. It's yours; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, and, indeed, we can see --

8 A. Yes, I don't know whose signature the one on the right side is.

9 Q. Right. And we can see that the -- the first.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Ms. Korner. This is the third time that

11 the interpreters didn't hear part of the answers. I didn't intervene

12 before. I didn't want to ...

13 MS. KORNER: What answer? Sorry.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: It says:

15 "The interpreter did not hear the beginning of the sentence."

16 MS. KORNER: All right.

17 Q. I asked you can you identify the signature at the bottom. I

18 think it was a familiar one.

19 And then you started to give an answer, and the interpreter

20 didn't hear the beginning of the sentence. Does it matter? He has given

21 the answer.

22 A. At the bottom, in the middle down there, that is my signature,

23 where the stamp is. I cannot recognise the one on the right-hand side.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, one of the people listed there at number 14, I

25 think, is -- is that Nikola Grgic. No, further down. It's the one --

Page 21147

1 yes, the one before the bottom. Sorry. It's that one, yep.

2 A. 14 is some Ranko.

3 Q. Sorry. It's number 18. Is that Grgic?

4 A. Nikola is the father's name; Aleksander is his name. But I

5 cannot see the last name very well, the one on the left-hand side.

6 Q. All right. Can you tell us why it was that you were sending to

7 Banja Luka -- or why the 9th Company for special assignments Banja Luka

8 had something to do with Doboj?

9 A. I think that I answered this question, if I remember correctly,

10 earlier on. It has to do with members of this unit who were with the

11 inspectors, who were operatives from state security -- or, rather,

12 national security, who came from Banja Luka and provided assistance to

13 the national security in Doboj.

14 I think that we've already discussed this.

15 Q. Well, I'm sorry, can we have look, please, at the next page in

16 B/C/S. Not in English.

17 Is that Slobodan Karagic again at the top?

18 A. It's quite illegible. Really is illegible.

19 Q. All right. So going back to the front page --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is this right: That you are paying for the services of people

22 who came from Banja Luka, and this is being sent back apparently to

23 Banja Luka? Or is it the other way around? Are you asking them to pay?

24 A. This is most illegible. But I think you said page 1 and 2. I

25 think that the document that you displayed previously does not comprise a

Page 21148

1 whole together with this one, if I noted its content correctly as well as

2 the signatures, et cetera.

3 However, the question was whether that was the case -- well, I

4 think that they, I mean, these on this list, had been paid a compensation

5 for May for their stay in Doboj. That this payment was made by -- I

6 don't know whose signature this is on the right-hand side. Now is it

7 Dervenic, I'm not sure. I think that's what happened. I think, I

8 assume, I cannot say with 100 per cent certainty.

9 Q. All right. Well, I don't want to ask you anything more about

10 that.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the witness identified his signature.

12 I don't know how long we are going to go on MFI'ing this, but at some

13 stage it's got to be made an exhibit, a proper one.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The problem is that the translation

15 is not complete. And that is why there was this objection by the

16 Prosecutor because we still haven't got a full translation of this

17 document.

18 Once again, we have a problem, Your Honours. This document that

19 I'm interested in is only the first page. The rest are parts of another

20 document. They are not one and the same document. So this first page

21 that was displayed is a document that we were interested in and that we

22 wanted to have translated. The remaining pages are not part of this

23 document. They are different documents.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours it's no good Mr. Krgovic asserting

25 this. If he wants to call evidence about that, that's one thing, but at

Page 21149

1 the moment these are all part and parcel of the same document.

2 Anyhow, let's not waste time. Thank you.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to because the witness just

4 said that, that this first document is not one and the same document with

5 the rest, that these are different documents ...

6 MS. KORNER: Let's move on, please. Can we look finally, please,

7 on this issue, very quickly, at document 24 bis, which is -- tab 24 bis,

8 which is P1300. Thank you. E-court has collapsed again, has it? Oh, I

9 see.

10 We have to go back -- sorry. Can we go back to e-court? We're

11 in Sanction at the moment.

12 Q. Right. This is a May document from Doboj. And if we look,

13 please - it's a long list - in -- I don't think the English will help

14 much, but it's the fourth page in B/C/S, under the heading of -- I think

15 it's -- is it special platoon?

16 Is that special platoon?

17 A. Yes. Above number 83, it says "special platoon within the

18 company."

19 Q. Thank you. And is number 83, Nikola Jorgic? And number --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And 97 and 98, Slavko Spasojevic and Slobodan Tekic, are they two

22 of the people who went into Teslic as part of the Mice group?

23 A. I think so. I think that it's those people, but I would like to

24 ask, if it's not a problem, to call up the previous page again. There is

25 something important for me.

Page 21150

1 Could I please have a look again.

2 Q. Yes, certainly. Do you mean the first -- the very first page?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Yes. Yes, certainly.

5 A. No, not that one. The one that we saw as the first page. Before

6 this last one? Well, all right.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

8 A. We can see it here as well. It's the heading up here or the

9 letterhead that confuses me a bit.

10 Q. Yes. It says CSB Doboj, 5th Company --

11 A. 5th Company of the milicija.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. Don't you see that something else was here? Before Doboj? And

14 that that was crossed out and then CSB is on the left? If I see this

15 right ...

16 Q. I do. And is there a point you want to make on that?

17 A. Yes. Well, yes, of course I do. Because the centre did not have

18 a single company of its own, let alone five of them. I think this has to

19 do with the station and that it's been changed or doctored.

20 Take a look.

21 Q. Yes because it doesn't --

22 A. I'd like to see who signed this. There you go. If that's not a

23 problem. If we could go to the end of the document to see whose

24 signature is there.

25 Q. There is no signature. Somebody has put chief --

Page 21151

1 A. Ah, then I --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. And there's no signature on the side to the effect that the money

4 had been collected. I don't see what kind of probative value this can

5 have, but these are my observations.

6 Q. It doesn't exactly, Mr. Bjelosevic, does it, agree with your

7 theory or your -- I'm sorry, not theory, I apologise, assertion that the

8 CSB Doboj was not operating for three months.

9 A. I didn't say three. It is well known which period this is, but I

10 think --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the

12 sentence.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. Can you please repeat the end of the sentence. I'm afraid it's

15 my fault. I had the microphone on. What were you saying?

16 A. I think that this document confirms what I've been saying. That

17 these are not the forces of the centre but of the station, rather.

18 MS. KORNER: I want to move, please, briefly from this topic to

19 the question of legal measures.

20 Your Honours, Mr. Zecevic had, as part of the documents he showed

21 this witness, which was a copy of which was provided to the witness,

22 document at tab 215. He asked for it to be admitted, and we objected.

23 We -- we withdraw the objection. To save me having to asking the witness

24 about it, could I simply ask that it be admitted.

25 The document number --

Page 21152

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I can help with you that Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: It's 65 ter 389D1. And it was our tab number 215.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it deals with part of the matters that

5 I wanted to ask him about, but he has already dealt with that, so ...

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I offered this document. Ms. Korner

7 objected. It wasn't admitted. Now we should -- it is my understanding

8 that now Ms. Korner wants to have this document admitted.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes --

10 MR. ZECEVIC: So I pray that this document be given 1D number.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's a list of unidentified

14 perpetrator cases.

15 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D542, Your Honours.

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. Now, the -- Mico Stanisic issued an order on the 23rd of July,

19 which I am not going to ask you to look at because I know you're familiar

20 with it, saying that --

21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, we lost the LiveNote again.

22 JUDGE HALL: We're advised that's a problem that is going to

23 continue in and out for the rest of the day. When it goes out, it would

24 come back in within ten minutes.

25 MS. KORNER: And it's on the main screen, Your Honours. I see

Page 21153

1 it's just on our computer screens that it has gone.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honours, it effectively creates a big

3 problem for me for the re-direct. But I will, I guess -- I will need to

4 lead with this, yes.

5 MS. KORNER: It's come back. [Microphone not activated]

6 Q. That police officers who were alleged to have committed criminal

7 offences should be suspended and put at the disposal of the military.

8 I'm sure you recall that order.

9 A. I do recall that. There were several orders from the minister to

10 that effect to cleanse the ranks of the active force and the reserve

11 force. Cleanse the ranks of all of those who committed criminal offences

12 and violations, yes.

13 Q. You never, in fact, launched criminal proceedings against any

14 police officer in Doboj for crimes committed against non-Serbs, did you?

15 A. I don't remember. But there were such instances, yes. I don't

16 know in which year, but there were some.

17 Q. I'm talking -- I'm talking about -- for offences committed in

18 1992.

19 A. I'm referring to the time when the -- when the criminal reports

20 were filed, not about the time when the offences were committed.

21 Q. Yes. Criminal reports filed in 1992 against police officer --

22 people who were listed on the police payrolls for crimes committed

23 against non-Serbs. Now, if you can't remember, say so.

24 A. I can't remember when the criminal reports were filed, but there

25 obviously were some criminal reports and proceedings were instituted.

Page 21154

1 Q. I'm not suggesting there weren't any against police officers

2 altogether, simply for committing crimes, such as looting, killing,

3 beating of non-Serbs.

4 A. That's how I understood you. Yes, there were some for such

5 offences, too. There were some criminal reports and proceedings for

6 that.

7 Q. All right. Can you tell us when and where?

8 A. I'm afraid I might make a mistake when I specify the year. But I

9 remember well that there was a police officer who was member of the

10 special detachment. He was deprived of liberty after his offence because

11 he had killed some Muslims. But that can be found. It may have been in

12 1994 or -- but proceedings were instituted. There's no doubt about that.

13 And the relevant document can be found in the archives.

14 Q. All right. Sorry, that's 1994 for a killing committed in 1992;

15 or 1994 for a killing committed in 1994?

16 A. Oh, well, I don't know for sure. But as you were able to see

17 from the documents displayed here, these are criminal reports, that an

18 on-site investigation was carried out on the occasion of each killing.

19 There were statements taken from witnesses, but when any individual case

20 was subsequently dealt with, I cannot say. We would need additional

21 documentation to be precise.

22 Q. All right. I want you to look, please, at one entry in the Doboj

23 criminal report, the KU, for the SJB Doboj, please.

24 MS. KORNER: And that is 65 ter 10353, I hope. And it's at

25 tab 104.

Page 21155

1 Sorry, it's 39A quater. Sorry, wrong tab.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Ms. Korner, are you referring to the KU register?

3 MS. KORNER: Yes, I am.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I think it is 1D358, and it's -- the tab is 245 in

5 the Defence.

6 MS. KORNER: SJB Doboj, KU.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, it was recorded as 58. I said 1D358.

8 MS. KORNER: It's not a D, as far as I know. It's never been ...

9 Sorry, it's -- that's what I thought. It's tab 104, 65 ter what?

10 20100. Right.

11 Q. Just before we look at that, can you tell us the name, please, of

12 the police officer who was charged with killing Muslims? I forgot to ask

13 you that.

14 A. It's difficult for me to recall.

15 Q. Well, I mean, this was an unusual -- sorry, you wanted to say.

16 A. What was the name again? Well, all we need to do is make a phone

17 call and then we'll get the name and the documents.

18 Q. All right. Now, do you recognise this book?

19 A. I don't recognise it, but I can see what it says.

20 Q. Right. And do you accept that this is the crime report book for

21 the SJB Doboj?

22 A. It says "OSUP Doboj" in the upper left-hand corner, although the

23 label is torn.

24 Q. Well, if you just go to the next page, I think can you see

25 clearly that it's the SJB Doboj.

Page 21156

1 Can we try and ... [Microphone not activated]

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, last week sometime, I was asking you questions

4 about voting in the plebescite and the referendum. And you said that was

5 everyone's right to vote in the plebescite for the Serbs, or the

6 referendum for the -- that was held by the BiH government.

7 Do you remember talking about that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you see -- I'm just going to have to find the pages. There

10 should be a list of charges against some people called Begovic and a

11 whole load of others. Can you -- unfortunately, I now can't find the

12 reference to them. July of 1992, so let me just ... ah, found it.

13 Can we go, please, to the page at the top. I have no idea what

14 the page number is, but it should say 0665-1438.

15 A. This is still page 1.

16 Q. No, I'm sorry, can we go, please. You have to go -- so that's

17 16. So it's about another 22 pages on.

18 A. I don't see that.

19 Q. All right. No, it's coming, I hope.

20 Yes, can we -- can we go to the right-hand side so that we can

21 see if it's -- can we go to the -- no. Reduce it, thank you. Is that

22 1438? You're right.

23 Now, can you now enlarge it, please, so that the first ...

24 Is that a series of people listed, starting with Nedzad Begovic?

25 A. Can this be enlarged some more? I cannot read it. Could you

Page 21157

1 please zoom in.

2 The numbers are in column 1 and it begins with number 21.

3 Q. It's number -- it should be number 26, it is, actually, I think.

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 Q. Yes, all right, who's --

6 A. Ahmic. I think the first name is Mehmed Alija, if I can see it

7 well.

8 Q. All right. Anyhow, I agree, it's not a very good copy, and

9 regrettably we haven't got --

10 Do you see there's a whole list of people on that page. And if

11 we see the offence, which is -- well, we can see it there. Begovic. In

12 English, anyhow.

13 This is taking too long. Do you see an entry for Avdic, Avdic,

14 Ahmic, Kadric, Prijanic, Tokmanovic, Dudic, Kopljar, et cetera, et

15 cetera, and then Begovic is number 13.

16 A. This ends with number 12.

17 Q. Yes, okay. I think this may be the wrong page, regrettably.

18 It's page 26 in B/C/S.

19 No, no, no --

20 A. At the top there is Vahid Begovic. Under number 13. Is this it?

21 Q. It's not. I'm not going to trouble with this anymore because

22 this is wrong.

23 MS. KORNER: Can we remove that, please, from the screen and

24 could we put up, please, the document which is at 39A quater, which is

25 1 -- which should be, I hope, 65 ter 10353.

Page 21158

1 Q. This is a criminal report dated -- in fact, it should be the

2 27th of July, I think we can all see in the B/C/S, and it's obviously in

3 the book at 13292, but never mind, against Mr. Begovic and a number of

4 others, huge number of others, including Mr. Krnic. If we go, please, in

5 English, page 14 in English. And it's page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Seven

6 in B/C/S. No, it's not.

7 In B/C/S --

8 A. I cannot see that name here.

9 Q. No, no, no. You're quite right, because it's not the right page.

10 MS. KORNER: Could we go -- it should say page 10 in B/C/S at the

11 top, page 10 in type. It should be one -- after the page you've got up,

12 three pages further on in B/C/S. Three pages further on. Right.

13 Q. Now, can you see the second name down there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Krnic born in 1912.

16 A. Yes, Mijat Krnjic.

17 Q. Now can we look, please, at what all these men were actually

18 charged with. If we go to the next page in English. And it's the same

19 page -- sorry. It's the same page in English, I think, as well. Sorry,

20 it's the same page in English:

21 "There are reasonable grounds to suspect that the subjects

22 committed the crime of threatening territorial integrity under

23 Article 116 in wanting to use unconstitutional means to break off parts

24 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and annex them to

25 another state.

Page 21159

1 "Namely, on 29 February and 1 March 1992, according to their

2 statements ... the aforementioned subjects took part in a referendum and

3 voted for a sovereign unitary and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina."

4 I'm not going to take you through the whole report, but many

5 inspectors were committed to -- and interviewing all of these. Was that

6 a proper criminal report, in your view, Mr. Bjelosevic?

7 A. I would now have to see what exactly this article of the penal

8 code of SFRY stipulates. But I don't want to offend anybody. However,

9 let me say that no serious person would ever -- or at least suffice it to

10 say, that I, personally, would have never done anything like this.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be marked for identification,

12 please.

13 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so marked.

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2341, marked for identification,

16 Your Honours.

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. Right. I want to deal very briefly with the Mice incident,

19 Mr. Bjelosevic.

20 You would accept, would you not, that the group known as the Mice

21 committed a number of serious crimes in Teslic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Ranging from unlawful arrest?

24 A. As far as I know, and according to the information I have

25 received, there were various offences. But according to that same

Page 21160

1 information, they committed a lot of offences. I don't know the details

2 or which individual did what. I do know that proceedings were

3 instituted. How they ended, I don't know.

4 Q. Well, I'm not going to go into that because the Court has heard

5 evidence about this, Mr. Bjelosevic.

6 But you wrote a number of documents, didn't you, which you have

7 been taken through, haven't you, disassociating yourself completely from

8 these events and blaming Mr. Savic?

9 A. You're putting -- well, let's not go into that.

10 I wrote a number of documents about -- or in accordance with the

11 information I received. I believe that the first document was an

12 Official Note after the event, and after that, there was one more

13 reporter, too, when I received subsequent information about what

14 happened, who went there and so on.

15 Q. All right. Well, I can give you the dates of your reports, and

16 if you need to see them, you can.

17 1st of July, 17th of August, and then October 1992. Does that

18 sound right to you?

19 A. I think that fits. There were three documents, and that's about

20 the time-frame.

21 The first was an Official Note. The second was a report based on

22 what I learned when Inspector Solaja interviewed them. And the third one

23 followed later.

24 Q. Yes, I'm going to come in a moment to Inspector Solaja. I just

25 want to ask you about one matter.

Page 21161

1 Is there -- you know that statements were taken in July from all

2 the people who had been involved in the actual Mice incident, don't you,

3 for the purposes of a criminal file.

4 A. Well, yes, as far as I know, an investigation was carried out

5 then. The police was involved there and the public prosecutor and the

6 investigative magistrate, and so on.

7 As far as I know, that's how things went, and I think the result

8 was a criminal report, and I believe that proceedings were initiated.

9 Q. And presumably you found out that the two -- the SJB chief and

10 the SJB commander, Mr. Kuzmanovic, and Mr. Markocevic, both made

11 statements in early July?

12 A. I don't know, but I suppose so. It would only be logical.

13 Q. Would you agree that during the period of the Mice's reign in

14 Teslic, Mr. Markocevic tried to get in touch with you, and, indeed went

15 to see you one day in Doboj?

16 A. If I remember correctly, Mr. Perisic and somebody else came to

17 see me.

18 Q. Now --

19 A. And we met on that occasion.

20 Q. I'm suggesting -- I'm asking you, rather, whether Mr. Markocevic

21 came to see you in Doboj during the course of June, explained the

22 problems in Teslic, and you said that you would talk to Milan Savic.

23 Did anything like that happen?

24 A. I don't think that anything like that happened. That -- that we

25 discussed this topic? No.

Page 21162

1 Q. Milan Savic was never charged, was he?

2 A. Well, I don't know. But it seems to me that he -- his name was

3 not included in this criminal report about Teslic.

4 Q. But no. You know -- I mean, that's the whole point, isn't it,

5 Mr. Bjelosevic. You were being blamed. It was said by people that you

6 had sent them, Savic and the rest of them, there, wasn't it? And that's

7 why you spent so long investigating yourself.

8 A. Well, no. That's not the way it was. I would like to remind you

9 that the investigation was led by the Banja Luka centre and the Teslic

10 station, along with the basic court and prosecutor's office in Teslic.

11 Q. Yes. But you weren't satisfied of all that because you,

12 yourself, wrote a number of reports, Mr. Bjelosevic, as we've just been

13 through. And the reason for you doing all this is because people were

14 saying you were responsible. Wasn't that right?

15 A. We could not have been in charge of the investigation in any way,

16 but I did inquire as to what was going on there. Because if someone

17 wanted to kill me, then I wanted to know why and why I was met that way

18 in Teslic. And it's well known who was carrying out the investigation

19 and who was in charge of the case.

20 Q. But it was clear, wasn't it, from everything that you found out

21 and it's in your reports that Mr. Savic was responsible for the police

22 element of this group, wasn't he?

23 A. Well, according to the statement of those who went up there with

24 Savic, and you could have seen that from the statements, well, yes, he

25 took them there.

Page 21163

1 Q. Let's look at your own report of the 17th of August, very

2 quickly, please. Which is at tab 50.

3 MS. KORNER: It's P1 -- oh, no, let's not. It's been exhibited.

4 It is P1343.

5 Q. Did you take any steps, Mr. Bjelosevic, to remove or have removed

6 Mr. Savic from the police in Doboj?

7 A. When assessing that, I was primarily guided by what the

8 investigating team did. Since a criminal report had been not been filed

9 against him, I've already told you that, later -- I told you how actually

10 I gradually came to know different things in this regard.

11 I noticed that there were elements involving his responsibility,

12 and when I was slowly preparing that, in order to be able to carry out

13 disciplinary proceedings, Milan Savic first, I don't know how, left. He

14 was at the public security station for a while, and then he left the

15 service.

16 Q. All right. Mr. Markocevic, however, and Mr. Kuzmanovic were

17 removed as chief and commander of the SJB Teslic, weren't they?

18 A. Yes. I think they were suspended by Radulovic or whoever was in

19 charge of the proceedings. But they were removed from the duties that

20 they had until then.

21 Q. Yes. Because they had done absolutely nothing to try and stop

22 these men, had they?

23 A. Well, I don't know what the decision exactly stated, but you know

24 because of local jurisdiction and for -- because of the decision of the

25 municipality. I really do not -- or could not have had any more detailed

Page 21164

1 information in that period of time.

2 Q. All right. Let's have a look at what you actually did in this

3 respect.

4 MS. KORNER: Could we have a look at 65 ter 20014 document,

5 tab number 57.

6 Stamped the 8th of September, 1992.

7 If we go, please, to the next page.

8 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom?

9 MS. KORNER: Can we go to the bottom, please. Second page,

10 sorry.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. Yes, it is my signature.

15 MS. KORNER: Go back on the first page, first page in B/C/S,

16 please. Sorry, second. Sorry. My fault.

17 Q. Is that you proposing that Mr. Kuzmanovic and Mr. Markocevic are

18 reinstated after all this as chief and commander of Teslic SJB?

19 A. Yes. And Marinko Djukic as the third one, yes.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours may that be admitted and marked --

21 MFI'd.

22 JUDGE HALL: Marked for identification.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As P2342, marked for identification,

24 Your Honours.

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 21165

1 Q. Right. You mentioned Inspector Solaja who was doing the

2 inspection of the Mice for you. And you talked about how he had been

3 removed. I'd like you to have a look, please -- sorry, he been

4 disciplined, and I'd like you to have a look, please, at 65 ter 20123,

5 please, tab 78B.

6 A. The taking of statements doesn't have anything to do with

7 measures against him, if that's --

8 Q. No, you're quite right. But you did deal with that last time,

9 and you suggested that he had been disciplined for committing offences

10 against non-Serbs. And I just want you to have a look at the actual

11 facts, as they were revealed by the judgement.

12 All right. This is the -- your decision; is that right -- we

13 better look at the -- can we see your signature at the bottom. Yes, we

14 can.

15 Is that your signature?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The facts of this are his employment was terminated because, on

18 8th of November, 1992, he tried to take to the Federal Republic of

19 Yugoslavia, the Mandic family and Mr. Petar Maric, all are Croats; is

20 that right?

21 A. He tried to take these persons in a vehicle. The documents were

22 forged, and it was all done for money, yes.

23 Q. But it wasn't committing offences against non-Serbs, was it,

24 which is what you suggested? He was actually helping them, if anything.

25 A. Well, was he helping them? If, in that situation, he took money

Page 21166

1 away from them, I would not agree that that is help. I think it's

2 averous. At that time the International Red Cross had a strong presence

3 there and people could go to the places they wanted to go to through

4 their mediation, so I would not agree that there weren't elements of

5 avers here and that this was assistance. Also documents were forged,

6 too, as far as I can remember the case.

7 Q. Yes. No, no, if you look at it --

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Page 80, line 21, it was

9 recorded as:

10 "A. Well, was he helping them?"

11 I think it was your question, Ms. Korner.

12 Yes, so after that, "if" should be recorded as answer.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Your Honours, may this be admitted and

14 marked, please -- MFI'd.

15 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, at what line is it that part of

18 the ...

19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated] ... it's page 80,

20 line 21.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: 21.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: It was recorded:

23 "A. Well, was he helping them?"

24 And I think that's a question.

25 And then comes the answer: "If, in that situation ..." and so

Page 21167

1 on, "he took the money from them," that's the answer.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] ... as I understood

3 it, this was said by Mr. Bjelosevic. His answer was:

4 "Well, is that helping."

5 Don't you agree.

6 MS. KORNER:

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, perhaps that's the situation. I'm not sure

8 anymore.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think Mr. Bjelosevic was questioning the fact

10 that helping -- that assisting persons for money, was that helping them.

11 And he said, no, that was --

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, that's true. The gist is recorded properly.

13 I was just --

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: All right. I don't know whether -- has it been

16 given a number? MFI?

17 JUDGE HALL: Marked for identification.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2343, marked for identification,

19 Your Honours.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. I want to turn briefly to the question of the relationship

22 between you, the police, and the army, and specifically between you

23 and -- and, as he then was, Colonel Lisica, later General Lisica.

24 Do you agree that the principle of the police being

25 resubordinated to the army was actually governed by the Law on

Page 21168

1 National Defence?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I just want to put some propositions to you, please,

4 Mr. Bjelosevic.

5 Firstly, you mentioned Colonel Lisica. You came back to him, in

6 fact, at one stage in the course of your evidence where you said you

7 didn't want to make it sound as though you and Colonel Lisica disagreed.

8 Do you remember saying something like that?

9 A. I think that this is what I said roughly: That I'm not

10 complaining about what he did, because, he, as commander, had the right

11 to order what he ordered, the engagement of forces in areas within his

12 area of responsibility. I think that that is what I said roughly, and

13 that is what I believe to this day.

14 Q. Yes. Well, I think it is slightly more than that, isn't it? The

15 fact is that the police and the military in the Doboj area in

16 particularly [sic] had the same goal in mind. Namely, to get rid of what

17 you described as enemy forces; is that right?

18 A. Well, I don't know what more appropriate word would be if we were

19 at war with each other and if we were firing at each other. It's

20 different now after all these years.

21 At the time, these were warring parties, and if somebody thinks

22 that it was supposed to be called something different, well, I don't

23 because you saw how many casualties there were among the police, not to

24 mention the army, and then in Doboj, say, 90 civilians, yes, they were

25 enemy forces. And it's only natural if we were fighting and we -- we

Page 21169

1 then wanted to defeat them, yes. It's not that they were throwing

2 ice-cream at us and that we were firing bullets at them. No. We fired

3 at them and they fired at us.

4 Q. Right. See if you agree with this proposition: When a people,

5 when a territory is in danger, practically in danger, that means you have

6 only one task. And that one single task is the defence of the territory

7 and the defence of the people, and there are no conflicting aims, that

8 the police should have one role, and that the military should have

9 another.

10 Do you agree with that proposition?

11 A. I think I referred to that earlier on as well. Defence is the

12 number one priority. Everything else comes after that. That's the way

13 it was according to our laws and the constitution, because the

14 constitution stated that that was the highest duty and responsibility of

15 military-age able-bodied citizens defence. And then also, that was part

16 of the awareness of the people themselves, that that was the topmost

17 task, yes.

18 Q. Right. Did you have a conversation at any stage with

19 Colonel Lisica where he explained to you and others who were there that

20 it was all very well to say that the police were not a combat force, but

21 that if the enemy took over this territory, then there would be no

22 territory to control?

23 Do you remember having a conversation along those lines with him?

24 A. I talked to him many times and that was at his command post and

25 during briefs, and so on, at the barracks in Derventa, and not to mention

Page 21170

1 all these places in Doboj as well. In Doboj, when he was commander of

2 the operations group, we did talk, but he wrote that to me once in his

3 answer when, because of the deterioration of the security situation, I

4 asked that we get the milicija out of the Brod front line and I explained

5 why. His answer to me was, Yes, I understand your problems, but I do not

6 agree with having the milicija withdrawn because if you remain without a

7 territory, or whatever his words were, if they capture your town, or

8 something like that, you will have no place where you would ensure law

9 and order.

10 Q. All right. Do you agree with this proposition: There were no

11 clashes between the military and police because the goal was the same.

12 Perhaps we had -- perhaps there were some disputes, but disputes did not

13 transfer into open conflict.

14 Do you agree with that?

15 A. Yes. As far as I know, at least in that area of his

16 responsibility, there was no open conflict between the army and the

17 police.

18 There was one incident between the military police of the 327th

19 Brigade and the milicija from Prnjavor that had been brought to Derventa

20 to do that work --

21 Q. Yes, I --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear part of

23 the answer.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, that was the

25 only case.

Page 21171

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. [Microphone not activated]... I really don't need this detail.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, can we -- I didn't want to interrupt either

4 the question or the answer. Can we get the reference from where

5 Ms. Korner is reading these propositions.

6 MS. KORNER: I am putting propositions to him, but I'm perfectly

7 prepared to say where I'm taking them from, if you want me to

8 [Overlapping speakers] ...

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers]... if it is a statement of

10 some kind, then you're obviously trying to get around the Rule 92

11 [Overlapping speakers] ...

12 MS. KORNER: No, I'm not. I'm putting --

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... that's why I'm asking --

14 that's why I'm asking --

15 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm putting propositions

16 to him. I would tell you where I get the propositions from, if you

17 really want to know, but I am simply asking him whether he agrees. I am

18 not, in any way, attempting to introduce any statement into evidence.

19 Now, do you want me to tell you from what I am reading in front

20 of the witness?

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, that's definitely what I ask you.

22 MS. KORNER: Right. This is the interview with General Lisica,

23 which was conducted sometime ago during the break where we had a request

24 from the Defence, having been told by somebody that we had interviewed

25 him that we provide a copy of the interview.

Page 21172

1 MR. ZECEVIC: But that is precisely what I suspected you were

2 doing, Ms. Korner. And it was the Office of the Prosecutor's position

3 until very recently that this is a way behind the Rule 92.

4 MS. KORNER: No --

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Ms. Korner, please. It was -- I will find the

6 reference in the transcript. When I wanted to introduce with the

7 previous witness the statement or the court transcript from the Court of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, about a previous minister Alija Delimustafic, and

9 it was said that in that case, I would need to bring Alija Delimustafic

10 here to confirm these words. And the same thing you are doing right now.

11 You're trying to introduce the statement of Lisica in this -- in this

12 way, I think.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. KORNER: It is either a deliberate or totally ignorant

15 statement that Mr. Zecevic has just made.

16 I'm not trying to introduce anything. I deliberately did not

17 mention it. I am putting propositions to this witness to see whether he

18 agrees with them. If he doesn't agree with them, then I have a different

19 course to take. It is why exactly I did not point out what it was that I

20 was -- where I was reading it. I am not, in any way -- it is not like

21 Mr. Zecevic attempting to get in a transcript of a witness who -- as part

22 of the evidence. I am simply putting factual matters. And if

23 Mr. Zecevic can't see that, I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE HALL: Please continue, Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 21173

1 Q. While we are on that topic, did you have a conversation with

2 General Lisica before you came to give evidence or during the break?

3 A. During this break? No, not with anyone. I didn't talk to anyone

4 from that circle.

5 JUDGE HALL: I was going to say, Ms. Korner, perhaps it would be

6 helpful for you to identify to the witness what you mean by "the break."

7 MS. KORNER: Oh, yes, you're quite right.

8 Q. First of all, before you came to give evidence, after February --

9 between February and when you first came here in April, did you have a

10 conversation with General Lisica?

11 A. I have General Lisica's number, and he's a man I have a high

12 regard for, and I call him every now and then when I come to Banja Luka.

13 We have a cup of coffee.

14 When I last talked to him, I cannot remember exactly. I would

15 not make a mistake in terms of the date or time. But, yes, I do see the

16 man, yes, from time to time.

17 Q. Did you see him after he had been interviewed by us in February?

18 A. I don't know when he was interviewed by you.

19 Q. Did you --

20 A. But I'm trying to remember now when it was that I last saw

21 him ...

22 Q. Was it you who provided the information to the Defence counsel

23 that we had conducted an interview with him, to either Mr. Zecevic or

24 Mr. Cvijetic?

25 A. I really don't know whether I said something like that.

Page 21174

1 Q. All right. Do you agree -- let me return to the propositions

2 that I'm putting to you. Do you agree that if there was no agreement

3 between you and the colonel about the use of your men in fighting, you

4 could apply through your chain of command and he through his, to get your

5 superiors to decide the issue?

6 A. Well, that happened several times. Already the first meeting, on

7 the 11th of July, we complained to the minister about that situation.

8 So, not about what the commanders did but we were complaining about the

9 situation, that it was hard to endure all of that.

10 It was only natural that I, as someone who was in charge in the

11 internal affairs service that I tried to have as many members of the

12 milicija as possible to be involved in such matters; whereas, the

13 commander wanted to carry out his own task as best he could.

14 So that was an approach that was a bit different. Everybody

15 tried to do whatever they had to do in the best possible way. But, after

16 all, it was well-known who had the say, as it were.

17 Q. But the simple point is that it wasn't a question, however

18 Colonel Lisica phrased himself, of the military simply ordering the

19 police to be doing things, which they didn't want to. It was mutual

20 agreement, wasn't it, between the two of you?

21 A. I wouldn't agree. You cannot reach agreements on something that

22 is written in the law. We can either act in accordance with the law, or

23 not observe the law. An agreement would mean something different.

24 Q. And the law said there had to be formal resubordination, didn't

25 there?

Page 21175

1 A. I don't know what you mean by "formal resubordination." But the

2 law prescribes that the commander, the military commander, at brigade

3 level and higher than that, has the right to engage all defence

4 structures within the area of his responsibility.

5 Q. To make the request; isn't that right, Mr. Bjelosevic? However

6 it was phrased, it was actually a request.

7 A. No. Order.

8 Q. And if, as I -- as I'm putting to you, you refuse, as we know

9 that you did on some occasions, then the -- the question of whether this

10 resubordination was to take place had to go up the chain of command to

11 General Talic or Mico Stanisic, didn't it?

12 A. Obviously you are looking at this in a scholarly way, as it were.

13 This is far removed from the real situation on the ground.

14 There was no time in war to apply all proper procedures. We

15 established a special detachment that was part of the special police

16 brigade of the MUP. It had its headquarters in Doboj. And in case of

17 urgent need, I was able to order the use of this detachment and only

18 subsequently apply for the minister's approval. Or, if there was time, I

19 could ask for his approval in a timely fashion.

20 Q. All right. In fact, Mr. Bjelosevic, this was, was it not, a

21 mutually supportive relationship which included you making requests of

22 him and him making requests of you?

23 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honours, it is quite clear I simply

24 cannot finish today. One last document, please, which is -- it's 20018,

25 tab 65.

Page 21176

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, is -- was this a question? Page 90/10

2 to 12. And does witness need to answer or not?

3 MS. KORNER: I'm going to ask him -- that's why I'm asking him to

4 look at this document. This is a question. Thank you.

5 Can we go to the second page in each, please. Third page in --

6 in B/C/S, sorry.

7 Q. Document signed by you, Mr. Bjelosevic?

8 A. This is my signature.

9 Q. Yes. Back to the first page --

10 A. Could you show the first page so that I can see the date? Or,

11 actually, it's on this page in English.

12 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... I'm going to send you -- I'm going

13 to show you the first page again.

14 MS. KORNER: Second page, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we move on to the text.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. Dated 21st September 1992, to the command of the operations group

18 of the Serbian army Doboj. In fact, not to TG3, but the principle is the

19 same.

20 You are asking the army to release these persons to become police

21 officers, aren't you?

22 A. This is a request for their relief so that they can attend a

23 training course.

24 If I remember correctly --

25 Q. [Microphone not activated]

Page 21177

1 A. -- these candidates did not leave during the planned period.

2 They were only relieved later and sent to the training course

3 subsequently, if I remember well.

4 Q. But it matters not, does it? It is an illustration of the

5 principle, I say, where this was a mutually supportive military/police

6 co-operation with the same goal in mind; isn't that right?

7 A. I don't know if you read this carefully, but I'll get there.

8 These are military conscripts, and the request is made for them

9 to be relieved from their military units so that they could attend a

10 training course. And after that training course, they could become

11 employees of the ministry. If so, if you read carefully, then you were

12 able to see that.

13 And as for your remark -- or, rather, what you are putting to me,

14 of course, we were not supposed to be on confrontation course, the army

15 and the MUP. That's the last thing we needed. Of course, we had good

16 relations and co-operated. What else? We weren't supposed to fight the

17 army, were we? I don't really get the point.

18 Q. Well, the point is you were trying to suggest, Mr. Bjelosevic,

19 that you could do nothing because the army moved in, removed all your

20 police, and that was it. And that's just not the way it happened, is it?

21 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, we have reached the point where we must

22 take the adjournment for the day.

23 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, we have -- I -- yes.

24 Your Honour, I'm so sorry, and I'm sorry to have made you sit longer. I

25 still have a little bit left to deal with.

*Registry Note: Please note that the witness did not actually use the word appointment but spoke only of a

decision (re{enje). That it was a decision on appointment became clear only later in his answer.