Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21179

 1                           Tuesday, 24 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

11     Alexis Demirdjian and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.  Your Honours,

12     with your leave, after the break, I'll be replaced by Mr. Hannis for

13     re-examination.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

16     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

18     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  May we have the witness escorted back to

20     the stand, please.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, Mr. Bjelosevic.  You may resume

23     your seat and before Ms. Korner continues, I remind you you are still on

24     your oath.

25                           WITNESS:  ANDRIJA BJELOSEVIC [Resumed]

Page 21180

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:  [Continued]

 3        Q.   Now, yesterday, Mr. Bjelosevic, you told us that a member of the

 4     MUP had been prosecuted for crimes against non-Serbs.  You couldn't

 5     remember his name but it was only a phone call away.  Did you make the

 6     phone call overnight to find out what his name was?

 7        A.   No, I didn't.  I didn't understand I was supposed to.

 8        Q.   That's fine.  I --

 9        A.   No, I didn't check.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, I want to return fairly briefly to the question

11     of the relationship between the military and the MUP and in particular

12     your relationship with General Lisica.  It's right to say, wasn't it,

13     that whatever the tone of the letters which were exchanged sometimes you

14     and Colonel Lisica had a good relationship during 1992?

15        A.   Well, we did have some heated discussions about some matters, but

16     our relationship certainly wasn't hostile.  It was a relationship of

17     co-operation.  It was fair.

18        Q.   Absolutely.  And would you agree with this:  That you would

19     occasionally visit police officers who were engaged under the military,

20     and from time to time you would run into Colonel Lisica?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you would have a conversation that went something like this:

23     You would ask him how long he was going to keep your police officers

24     there because you had better things to do?

25        A.   Well, we spoke about the situation on the battle-field, about

Page 21181

 1     problems in the rear, security-related problems.  Those are mostly the

 2     matters that we discussed.  I cannot recall the structure of our

 3     conversations and I cannot reproduce them, but these are the things that

 4     we spoke about.

 5        Q.   Absolutely.  And most of the time -- well, in fact, I would

 6     suggest perhaps all the time you found, between the two of you, a

 7     solution for any of the problems that might arise?

 8        A.   When we didn't identify problems, we acted pursuant orders.  We

 9     could talk about various matters, but it was clear who the executive

10     power of issuing orders had.

11        Q.   Well, you see, I want to -- to deal with this.  You said

12     effectively the military commander had the power to order anybody within

13     his zone of responsibility.  That's what you are saying, isn't it?

14        A.   Yes, in his zone of responsibility, the commander could issue

15     orders and involve all structures in defence-related the matters.

16        Q.   But that only, that principle only applied if there was the

17     existence and declared state of war; isn't that right?

18        A.   And imminent threat of war.

19        Q.   Well, no, it was different, wasn't it, an imminent threat of war.

20     There, isn't this right, Mr. Bjelosevic, the commander had the right to

21     request from the ministry the use of police and other such people to help

22     the military, but not actually to simply order, however Colonel Lisica

23     may have phrased the requests?

24        A.   Under the Law on National Defence, in case of war and imminent

25     threat of war, that is both, you can check that because you say you have

Page 21182

 1     a legal library, and the commander exercises power in accordance with

 2     that.  He engaged those forces that under his estimate were necessary to

 3     defend the front line, and so on.  You mentioned that the procedure

 4     should have been to apply for approval to the ministry, but that

 5     procedure was not prescribed by the law and it would have taken very long

 6     anyway.  That area was always near the front line.  It was very dynamic,

 7     and such a procedure would not have been appropriate if it had been

 8     necessary to wait.

 9             The commander exercised the power that he had under the law, and

10     that's how things happened.

11        Q.   Well, Mr. Bjelosevic, I hear what you say, but that is not, in

12     fact, right, is it?  It may have been that Colonel Lisica phrased his

13     demands, as it were, as an order, but the reality is, wasn't it, that he

14     had to ask you, and you didn't refuse, and if you had said no, then the

15     issue would have had to have been resolved at the higher level by the

16     Main Staff of the VRS and by the minister; isn't that the actual

17     situation at this stage?

18        A.   It was the way I described it, and to clarify additionally, I can

19     remind you of the situation in July when he ordered the entire police

20     force from Derventa to be deployed at the front line urgently, in the

21     direction of Brod.  And I only learned about that later.  In order to

22     make sure that the situation in town and the surroundings be bearable, he

23     ordered police forces from Prnjavor to take over policing tasks in town,

24     and he said that he did so because things were urgent.  He didn't even

25     have time to call me or contact me, but issued a direct order.  But to

Page 21183

 1     provide security to the town, he ordered police forces from Prnjavor to

 2     come and do policing work.

 3        Q.   I was going to come on to that but I'll deal with it now.  In

 4     Derventa, a town command was set up, wasn't it, because after the Serbs

 5     retook it, it was in, putting it colloquially, a terrible mess; isn't

 6     that right?

 7        A.   Yes, the colonel ordered that military administration be

 8     established and one of his assistants was appointed as town commander.  I

 9     believe that we were able to see his order, the original order.

10        Q.   Exactly.  And the town command was also set up, actually, by him

11     in Brod, wasn't it, Bosanski Brod?

12        A.   Yes.  In Derventa -- or, rather, Derventa was in July and Brod

13     was in October, but it wasn't a town command.  It was a military

14     administration headed by a military commander where he had his assistants

15     as laid down by the commandant's order.

16        Q.   But when a town command was set up because law and order and

17     everything, all facilities, had broken down, the civilian police

18     conducted their own affairs, didn't they, in the same way as they would

19     in normal circumstances.  In other words, they investigated robberies,

20     murders, looting and the like; isn't that right?

21        A.   Not entirely.  Military administration -- the phrase speaks for

22     itself.  It didn't provide for a full liberty to the civilian

23     authorities, but we are speaking about a restrictive approach by all

24     bodies involved and the imposition of such rules wherever there's most

25     military administration.  But during that period, at least, and that is

Page 21184

 1     until October, when we speak about the northern part, the forces spent

 2     most of the time at the front line.  Some forces dealt with security and

 3     many staff were positioned at check-points.  Much attention was devoted

 4     to the prevention of looting.  Looted goods should be seized, taken away.

 5     Those were their instructions, anyway, and they were supposed to issue

 6     certificates for seized goods, and then arrangements would be made as to

 7     what should happen to those goods.

 8        Q.   Right.  Now, you've mentioned check-points.  I haven't finished

 9     what I want to ask you about commands, but is it right that

10     General Lisica complained to you, or brought to your attention, that

11     these check-points being manned by the police were actually not stopping

12     people with loot, but were effectively taking bribes and letting them

13     through?  Is that right or wrong?  You can answer that fairly simply.

14        A.   Now you've reminded me of something that really happened on

15     several occasions, and please allow me to explain.  At the briefings to

16     which I was often invited at the command, we discussed the issue of

17     looting, and Commander Lisica often asked me, What's your force doing,

18     why don't they prevent looting?  And I tried to explain what was really

19     happening in practice, that people in uniform are looting and that they

20     are armed and that it was a problem, that there had been conflicts and

21     weapons pointed at people, and so on.

22             On one occasion, I was on my way to the barracks at Derventa

23     where a briefing was called, and I was passing through town and saw at

24     various places that people in military uniforms were loading some goods

25     from houses on to trucks, and so on.  When I came to the barracks, I saw

Page 21185

 1     Colonel Lisica and told him what was happening, and I suggested to him

 2     that we should take a ride through town for him to see what is happening.

 3     And then at some places he got out of our vehicle and ordered those

 4     persons to produce their ID.  They -- and when we got back to the

 5     barracks, he was extremely furious.  He shouted at the military police

 6     and gave them orders to act, and so on.

 7             So what you are saying is correct, but what I said is also true

 8     and he started to view things a bit differently once he had seen the

 9     situation with his own eyes.

10        Q.   Right.  Thank you.  Can I just complete, please, what I want to

11     put to you about town commands.  That a town command was a temporary body

12     that existed until civilian life returned to normal; do you agree with

13     that?

14        A.   Yes.  It was up to the commander to lift military authority and

15     re-establish civilian authorities.  That was based on his estimate of the

16     situation, but it was entirely up to him to make that decision.

17        Q.   Right.  And finally this:  The town commander would co-ordinate

18     the tasks to be done by the police and other bodies?

19        A.   If I'm not mistaken, in the order about the setting up of

20     military administration, the town commander was the person who gives

21     orders and co-ordinates activities.  I believe you are right.

22        Q.   Now, finally on the question of the military and police

23     relationship, disciplinary matters.  When you were asked about this by

24     Mr. Zecevic, you stated that:  From the moment when the police is

25     deployed in combat - sorry, this is at page 19654 - it represents an

Page 21186

 1     element of the armed forces and subject to all rules and possibly

 2     disciplinary measures applied by the military because they are engaged in

 3     combat by the military.  And you were saying that when you had a look at

 4     a document which is in the Defence bundle.  It's 1D46 and it's at tab 47.

 5             MS. KORNER:  If we could have that up, please.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can the usher please help us with the bundle.

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   You can see this is the order of the 15th of May of 1992 by

 9     Mico Stanisic.  Go to the second page, and your direction was drawn --

10     your direction.  Your attention was drawn to paragraph 8 where the order

11     read:

12             "In carrying out regular duties and tasks, the provisions of the

13     Law on Internal Affairs and other regulations of the Serbian Republic of

14     BH currently in force shall be strictly upheld, whereas in military

15     operations, military regulations and rules shall be enforced."

16             And you said yes, that was your understanding, that if they were

17     re-subordinated to the military, police would be disciplined by the

18     military.  But your attention wasn't drawn to the second part:

19             "Any violation of regulations and failure to carry out tasks

20     which have been ordered shall be subject to severe punishment and result

21     in appropriate disciplinary and criminal sanctions."

22             Now, you see, Mr. Bjelosevic, if what you are saying is correct

23     and that the -- during re-subordination, the military dealt with

24     discipline of the police, there would be no point, would there, in

25     Mico Stanisic issuing this order, would there, before I put the next part

Page 21187

 1     to you?

 2        A.   I believe you are wrong.  I'll try to explain.  In the first

 3     subparagraph, I don't think that there's anything unclear.  I believe

 4     that the language of this order is very clear here.  The regular duties

 5     and tasks are one thing, whereas the police engaged in military

 6     operations is another thing.  Military relations and rules are mentioned

 7     there.  Whereas the other subparagraph about violation of regulations and

 8     failure to carry out tasks shall be subject to severe punishment and

 9     result in appropriate sanctions.  I don't see what the problem is here.

10     The minister orders what kind of conduct is appropriate in carrying out

11     bigger tasks and duties, and also states what the situation is when the

12     military --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  When the police is

14     re-subordinated to the military.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then he mentions sanctions and

16     punishment.  I don't see what the issue is.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   Well, the issue is this:  Because I suggest to you that contrary

19     to your assertion, it was, in fact, the police chain of authority that at

20     all times remained responsibility for disciplinary proceedings; whether

21     or not at the time that the disciplinary offence was committed, or the

22     criminal offence, the particular officer was re-subordinated?

23        A.   No.  It is clear which provisions of which law apply to a police

24     officer at any given time, when the police officer carries out his

25     regular tasks and duties or when he carries out military duties, when he

Page 21188

 1     is under military command.  That's very clear.

 2        Q.   Can you point me, please, Mr. Bjelosevic, to any provision of the

 3     law that says in terms during the period when an officer is

 4     re-subordinated to the military, it is the military who are responsible

 5     for conducting disciplinary proceedings?

 6        A.   By virtue of joining a military formation, the police officer is

 7     subject to the military command and the military rules and regulations by

 8     the very fact that he has joined the military.  Can I try to explain --

 9        Q.   No, thank you.

10        A.   -- by an example.

11        Q.   No.  Well, all right, if it's an example that's right on point

12     and short.  Is this an example from something that actually happened or

13     you are just speculating?

14        A.   No, no, it's not speculation.  That's how it worked.

15        Q.   No, no, before you go into a long example, is this an example of

16     that you are going to give of something that actually happened.  In other

17     words, that a police officer whilst re-subordinated to a military command

18     was disciplined by the military?  If not, then I am afraid -- and you can

19     be asked about it by Mr. Zecevic, then I don't want to hear about it.

20        A.   Well, I can immediately remember two examples.  One is from

21     September, I think, during the carrying out of combat operations in the

22     direction of Brod.  There was a slight confusion and unplanned retreat.

23     Commander Lisica placed the commander of that police platoon in custody

24     and remand prison.  I don't know if I should mention his name because he

25     is a high-ranking police official nowadays.  And he was in remand prison

Page 21189

 1     for 24 hours.

 2             And the other case is from 1994.  The incident happened on

 3     Mount Ozren near Vozuca.  The front line was being pierced and some

 4     people went AWOL, and a number of police officers were sanctioned.

 5     Although I was in Bijeljina already, it was in autumn, I know that the

 6     military police arrested them, and they were detained for awhile.  When I

 7     arrived at the command post, we calmed down the situation and the people

 8     were returned to the front line.

 9        Q.   Right.  I am sorry, who conducted it?  It may well be that

10     Colonel Lisica in a fit of rage put somebody into prison for 24 hours.

11     Who conducted any proceedings against him?  And you better tell us the

12     name of this man, please.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Having regard to the witness's comment about the

14     present status of that man, shouldn't we go into private session?

15             MS. KORNER:  Certainly, Your Honours, if you think that's

16     appropriate.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 21190

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.

 7        Q.   On two occasions, police officers were incarcerated for a period.

 8     Who actually conducted any disciplinary or criminal proceedings against

 9     any of these people, or were there none?

10        A.   In the first case, the measure was imposed by Commander Lisica.

11     The second time on Mount Ozren, it wasn't him.  But let me explain this

12     one thing --

13        Q.   No, no, I want know, you've said they were arrested.  That's not

14     the same thing.  I want to know if any proceedings, either disciplinary

15     or criminal, were carried out against any of these people?

16        A.   The military has a different way of functioning, and that's what

17     I'm trying to explain.  It's the commander who is in charge in peacetime

18     when you would do your national service.  An officer would have the right

19     to send you, for up to seven days, to military detention without any

20     proceedings being conducted.  The military functions in a different way

21     compared to the civilian structures.

22        Q.   Right.  Well, I suggest to you that these examples are really not

23     appropriate to the principle which I'm putting to you, and I've already

24     put it to you and you disagree, which is that the -- even when the police

25     are re-subordinated, it is the police who are responsible for taking

Page 21191

 1     proceedings.

 2             Now, can I ask you, do you know somebody called

 3     Ljubisa Kitanovic?  Let me make sure I've got the right name.

 4        A.   You said Kitanovic?

 5        Q.   Just let me double-check the name.  Ljubisa, yes, Kitanovic, also

 6     known as Crni?

 7        A.   Crni, didn't he have some other name in Samac?  I can't remember

 8     it now.  But I believe that in Bosanski Samac, there was a man nicknamed

 9     Crni, but I can't remember his name.

10        Q.   Did you know him personally?

11        A.   No, I only heard that he was in Samac.  I think that Crni is

12     mentioned also at the time of the blockade of the corridor.  That name

13     was mentioned quite often.

14        Q.   All right.  This is a different Crni.  This is -- do you know

15     anything about a man called Ljubisa Kitanovic?  Do you have any dealings

16     with a man called Kitanovic, born in Teslic?

17        A.   I cannot remember anybody by that name right now.  I really can't

18     remember.

19        Q.   Were you ever made aware of any allegations made against you by

20     this man?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Now, I want to deal with two matters, finally, quite shortly.  I

23     want to ask you for your view, as chief of the CSB for quite a long

24     period, about this:  If you received credible information that police

25     officers from an SJB that came within your area of responsibility had

Page 21192

 1     killed over 100 unarmed men, would you feel it was your responsibility to

 2     make sure that those responsible for the killing were immediately

 3     arrested and questioned?

 4        A.   Maybe it's an issue of interpretation.  I'm a bit confused now.

 5     If I understood you correctly, you are speaking hypothetically, had there

 6     been 100 murders by a policeman, would such a policeman be arrested?

 7        Q.   Yes, I mean, that's right.  I'm asking you, if you received

 8     credible information that police officers from an SJB that fell within

 9     your area of responsibility had murdered in one incident over 100 people,

10     would you feel it was your responsibility to make sure that these men

11     were immediately arrested and questioned?

12        A.   Yes, yes, had I had such information, I would probably do exactly

13     that.  Of course it all depends on circumstances, where they are, who

14     they are, what kind of danger there is, but of course there would be some

15     efforts in that direction.

16        Q.   Would you think it appropriate for the chief of the SJB to

17     immediately send those police officers as a unit to the army so that it

18     became difficult to question them?

19        A.   That would not be appropriate.

20        Q.   If police officers under your direct command, Mr. Bjelosevic, in

21     other words, someone you had direct control of, not through an SJB chief,

22     went to a prison and forced the prison authorities to release some other

23     policemen, one of their number, would you think it was appropriate to

24     investigate that matter and question those police officers?

25        A.   If I understood you correctly, you are talking about an

Page 21193

 1     assumption.  Some policemen were detained, and then some other policemen

 2     came to take them out of detention using force.

 3        Q.   Exactly.

 4        A.   Well, that's absolutely also a breach.

 5        Q.   Which should have been investigated.  If it had happened to you

 6     by -- you should have ordered the investigation?

 7        A.   The commander should have reacted, chief of the station, and

 8     anybody else who had such information.  I absolutely agree that the

 9     reaction should have been made immediately, if such a thing happened.

10        Q.   And, finally, if barricades had been erected throughout the town

11     of Doboj before any conflict broke out, and armed men were stopping

12     people at these barricades and surrounding municipal buildings, would you

13     think it appropriate that you should use the police to remove these

14     people?

15        A.   Do I understand you correctly, it's all hypothetical.  You say if

16     this happens, if that happens.

17        Q.   I'm just asking for your understanding and reaction as a chief of

18     a CSB.  Would you have thought that it was proper to allow armed men to

19     set up barricades in the town of Doboj?

20        A.   I have to make a connection with reality, with practice here.

21     Barricades were erected at various points in March already, as well as

22     national roads and approaches to certain settlements.  If we talk

23     specifically about Doboj, in April there were already some barricades and

24     I think I spoke about that.  Such barricades would be put at around

25     sunset at the approaches to Carsija and Gradina and other places, and not

Page 21194

 1     even regular police patrols would be able to pass.  It was quite clear

 2     who was able to enter that area, who would be accepted by people manning

 3     those barricades.

 4        Q.   I'm not talking -- may I make this clear, I'm not talking about

 5     barricades at various ethnically separate parts of the town.  I'm talking

 6     about barricades being erected in order to make demands to the municipal

 7     leadership.  Totally different situation.

 8        A.   That's hypothetical assumption.  We should consider a number of

 9     elements:  What it is about, in which municipality, why the barricades

10     were erected, who erected them, were they armed or not?  This is all

11     about careful estimate and evaluation of the situation, and only then can

12     you choose an appropriate measure of reaction.  What were the

13     circumstances, was it peacetime, war time?

14        Q.   Well, one last question and then we'll leave this topic.  If the

15     barricades, to your certain knowledge as a police officer and from the

16     information you got, were being put up by criminals, well known

17     criminals, would that make a difference?

18        A.   We are still talking about the same hypothesis?

19        Q.   Yes, I just want to know whether that would make any difference

20     to what you would do.  If the answer is no, then say so.

21        A.   Well, I said that I should consider a number of various elements

22     in order to evaluate the situation.  Right now, I know nothing.  This is

23     just a hypothetical:  Barricades set up, municipality blockaded, we don't

24     know who it is, what were the reasons, are they armed are not, are there

25     any people armed within the municipality building, are we dealing with a

Page 21195

 1     hostage situation, what are the elements?  It all really requires a

 2     careful evaluation.

 3        Q.   I won't pursue this.  Final question on factual matters before I

 4     deal with the very last topic.

 5             In 1994, or thereabouts, were you ordered by Mico Stanisic to

 6     solve the issue of the killings at Koricanska Stijena in 1992?  And I use

 7     the word "solve."

 8        A.   No.  In 1992, Koricanska Stijena, that's something that happened

 9     outside the jurisdiction of the Doboj CSB.  But when Mr. Stanisic was

10     minister again in 1994, I received another assignment from him.  I had to

11     go to Prijedor, I think it was sometime in April, and we had to resolve a

12     situation of multiple murder.  Sixteen or 17 people were killed --

13        Q.   Sorry, this is a killing that took place in 1994?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Don't worry about that.  It's outside what we are concerned with.

16     I simply want to know, whether at any stage, he ordered you to carry out

17     further investigations and solve the killings which had occurred in 1992

18     on Koricanska Stijena?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Now, finally, I want, just quickly, to ask you a few more

21     questions about your time that you told us about with the military, in

22     the period between the beginning of May and the end of June.  And do you

23     agree that your military booklet that you provided us with, and which we

24     can see, it's 20096, tab 100.  Do you have the original with you?

25             MS. KORNER:  65 ter 20096.

Page 21196

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I brought it here, but it seems to

 2     have been left in my other jacket.  Yes, I think I left it in my hotel

 3     room.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   All right.  We are going to look at it on the screen anyhow.

 6        A.   I brought it here on Tuesday and Wednesday, and then nobody

 7     wanted to take a look at it, so I left it in my room.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't think that we have on the screens the

 9     booklet.  It's a personal file.

10             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, it is.  Quite right.  20129.  Sorry.  And

11     it's tab 108.  Sorry.

12        Q.   Do you agree that's a photocopy of your military booklet?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And the military booklet should record, is that right, the times

15     when you do service with the military?  For example, if we go to --

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   You agree.  All right.  It shows that you did your military

18     service ... somewhere --

19        A.   Beginning with the 2nd of October, 1970, until the

20     13th of February, 1971, in Mostar, I was an intern because my national

21     service was recognised as part of my university studies.  And then I

22     simply had to do an internship in order to be qualified for the position

23     of an officer and the appropriate rank.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, that -- it does show -- and I'd -- rather than

25     go through all the pages, that you were shown to be fit for military

Page 21197

 1     service.

 2             MS. KORNER:  That's at page 3 in English and it's section 5 in

 3     B/C/S.  That will be on the second page, I think.  Third page.  Is that

 4     section 5?  No.  It's going backwards, I think.  Yes, sorry, it's page 2

 5     in B/C/S.  Yes, I think we are being shown it.  Sorry, I didn't notice

 6     that.  Right.

 7        Q.   It shows you were fit for military service on the 20th of

 8     September, 1972.

 9             MS. KORNER:  If we go, please, then to section 6 which is at

10     page 5 in English, and presumably the next page in B/C/S.  Yes.

11        Q.   Shows you were doing your military service between October 1974

12     to the 13th of February, 1985, in Mostar.

13             MS. KORNER:  If we go to page 8 and section 8 in B/C/S -- page 8

14     in English.  And it's the fifth page in B/C/S.

15        Q.   We see your various promotions, and I'm not going to trouble with

16     them until we get to the -- next page in English, please, and the

17     next ... by 1991, section 6, you've reached the rank of commander or

18     captain, sorry.

19             MS. KORNER:  And now, finally, page 15 in English and section 10

20     in B/C/S; 10 in B/C/S.  No, that's it.  Thank you.

21        Q.   It shows that your, as it were -- your military service was

22     cancelled because you've gone to the MUP, is that right, between the

23     4th -- this is the -- obviously the RS MUP, between the

24     4th of April, 1992, to the 30th of June, 1996?

25             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, wrong page in English, please.  Thank you.

Page 21198

 1        Q.   Do you agree that there is absolutely no record whatsoever in

 2     your military booklet of you being assigned to the military between April

 3     and end of June -- sorry, between May and the end of June 1992?

 4        A.   My war time assignment was not changed.  I was -- I remained with

 5     my previous war time assignment, but, during that period, I was

 6     re-subordinated, and that's something that is normally not recorded in

 7     the military booklet.

 8        Q.   Well, you say you were re-subordinated, and it wasn't recorded in

 9     your work booklet either, was it?

10        A.   No, it's not normally recorded in the work booklet.

11        Q.   By whom were you re-subordinated?

12        A.   It was in the command, the forward command post of the

13     1st Krajina Corps.  Maybe I should explain it.

14        Q.   No, no.  You've told us where you were.  I understand where you

15     say you were.  I want to know, please, who ordered you to go and work

16     under military command?  Who?  Not where, who?

17        A.   It's one thing when there is a written order for somebody to be

18     appointed to a position of command.  That is done by a written order and

19     that happened twice.  I said once in spring.  I think it was the end of

20     May or the beginning of June, at the beginning of the operation called

21     Corridor; and then the second time, it was in November 1992 when I was

22     engaged to perform functions of the battalion commander.  And in this

23     interregnum, so to speak, there was no written order.  I was engaged

24     according to need.  If at one point there was no CSB, then until my final

25     appointment, I was engaged on various tasks that I already mentioned.

Page 21199

 1     And there wasn't a written order that applied to the whole of this

 2     period.  That's what I'm trying to explain to you.

 3        Q.   You see, that's -- leave aside November.  We perfectly accept

 4     what happened to you in November.  I'm only interested in the major

 5     period, which, as you know, I put it to you before, is the period when

 6     all these crimes were committed in Doboj.  Where is the order that you

 7     say re-subordinated you to the military?

 8        A.   I don't know where this written order is.  Whether I returned it

 9     with all other document when I was sending back the combat reports,

10     that's probably how it happened, that is how it went back.  If you are

11     asking me who wrote that order, it was the corps commander, if I remember

12     correctly, or maybe the Chief of Staff, but I think that it was commander

13     who signed it.

14        Q.   The late General Talic, that's what you are saying?

15        A.   Yes, yes, I think that he signed the order.

16        Q.   Right.  Did you let Mico Stanisic know that in this early period

17     of huge change, one of his chiefs of the CSB was simply not going to be

18     there?

19        A.   I informed Minister Stanisic about this engagement of mine when I

20     attended the meeting.  I had no opportunity to inform him about that

21     prior to that.  Even though the other day you put it to me -- you claimed

22     that it was possible to go to Sarajevo -- to come from Sarajevo, that the

23     communications were operational.  But I would like that person claiming

24     that it was possible to reach Sarajevo and Pale to show me which route

25     was open.  My position is that it wasn't possible to travel between Doboj

Page 21200

 1     and Pale.  There were simply no roads.

 2        Q.   It may not have been possible, and leaving that aside for you to

 3     travel, you could, however, have sent a dispatch, couldn't you, to

 4     Mico Stanisic, via Banja Luka, as we saw you did before, saying,

 5     General Talic has asked me to come and work with the army because of

 6     operation corridor?  You could have done that, couldn't you?

 7        A.   Can you even imagine what the situation was like there?

 8        Q.   Could you just answer the question, please.  Could you have sent

 9     a dispatch, as you sent a letter over this Dutch journalist, or dispatch,

10     via Banja Luka to Stanisic saying, General Talic has asked or ordered

11     that I go and work with him, is that all right?  You could have done

12     that, couldn't you?

13        A.   I didn't even think about it at the time.  In May, I didn't even

14     know whether there were any links between Banja Luka and Pale at the

15     time, and I don't think that those links existed continuously.  I think

16     that some links were established later on, that the army did it, and it

17     worked only sporadically, as far as I know.  But to tell you the truth,

18     at that time, in the beginning, in the first half of May, it did not even

19     occur to me that I would have to find, at any cost, a mechanism of

20     informing the minister.  Given the factual situation, given how things

21     were, it was pointless for me to sit by myself, as a chief of CSB, alone

22     in the office without having a single department operational.  Facing the

23     reality as it was, we were encircled.  There were no goods in the shops,

24     there was no money, no living conditions, basically, no electricity, no

25     traffic, disorder in health services.  If you can just imagine that

Page 21201

 1     situation, and people getting killed all around us and shooting

 2     everywhere.

 3        Q.   We have already been through the fact, Mr. Bjelosevic, some time

 4     ago that the MUP, both in the old BiH and the RS, was a strictly

 5     hierarchical disciplined body.  Now, how could you possibly have

 6     disappeared off, as you say you did, without informing your superiors?

 7        A.   The state was also organised in accordance with the constitution.

 8     It functioned in accordance with the constitution, and then it collapsed.

 9     The entire system collapsed.  The communications collapsed, everything

10     did.  It will not be an exaggeration for me to say that there was this

11     instinct for survival that prevailed for personally and for the family.

12        Q.   Absolutely, Mr. Bjelosevic.  Instinct for survival for you and

13     the family.  You just effectively abrogated your responsibilities, didn't

14     you, to Mr. Petrovic and the SJB, and you effectively hid out to save

15     yourself?  That's what happened, isn't it, Mr. Bjelosevic?

16        A.   That's not right.  I would absolutely not agree that that is how

17     it was and there's numerous evidence and numerous witnesses who can prove

18     that that is not how it was, that I did not run off in that period of

19     time.  Had I run off, I would not have been awarded with the

20     Karadjordje Star and I would not have received the veterans status.  And

21     it was not me who abrogated the responsibilities and who shifted the

22     responsibilities to Mr. Petrovic.  I explained to you what the

23     circumstances were that led to this.  And later on you could see how

24     people interfered by way of orders, and later on the Crisis Staff

25     verified this or ratified this officially.  And I think that it was

Page 21202

 1     rational because only part of the territory of pre-war municipality of

 2     Doboj was under the control of the forces and that security station that

 3     existed was quite sufficient to deal with the security matters in that

 4     territory.

 5        Q.   I'll make it quite clear.  I'm sure you did go off to the

 6     military forward command from time to time, and that was your excuse,

 7     wasn't it, for not dealing with any of the matters, the crimes that were

 8     committed during that period?  Do you understand, Mr. Bjelosevic?  I

 9     suggest you hold full responsibility for what happened and that you were

10     there more often than you are prepared to admit?

11        A.   I fully understand your position, what you are claiming, but I

12     disagree with you because that's not how it was.  Second, I especially

13     disagree with the last claim you uttered because that's not how it was

14     under the law.  The law regulates clearly what the responsibilities of

15     the public security station and its territory, and for some reason you

16     are putting it wrongly.  I don't know why you are doing this because

17     that's not how it was.

18             MS. KORNER:  I have no further questions.  Thank you,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment.  Mr. Bjelosevic, one follow-up

22     question about this:  You said you talked to the minister about your

23     appointment in the army and your leaving your post as CSB chief.  At the

24     meeting, you said, could you remind us the date of that meeting you are

25     referring to?  What meeting are you referring to?

Page 21203

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The meeting which took place on the

 2     11th of July in Belgrade.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before Mr. Zecevic takes the floor, I, too, have

 5     a small question for you, Mr. Bjelosevic, namely in respect of the

 6     establishment of the town commands which you told us about earlier this

 7     morning.  And my question to you is:  Where these town commands were

 8     established, were there also in these towns or municipalities

 9     Crisis Staffs existing or established at the same time in any of the

10     places where town commands were established?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  During that period of time

12     when the town command existed, it was, if I can put it that way, the sole

13     authority.  There were no Crisis Staffs or any other organs in power.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did the town command or the town commands, did

15     they include any representation from civilian authorities?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would have the town commander,

17     and the town commander had his assistants for various matters.  And it

18     wasn't arranged identically in every town.  Military administration

19     existed in Brod, in Derventa, in Odzak.  Odzak had the strictest term of

20     military administration because there weren't many civilian residents

21     there anyway and there were very few assistants for various matters.

22     Whereas in Derventa and in Brod, there were more assistants of the town

23     commander for various matters.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.  Just to be clear about what your

25     testimony is:  When you say that the town commander had assistants, would

Page 21204

 1     these assistants be recruited from his own military staff or would they

 2     be recruited from civilian authorities?  In other words, what I'm

 3     interested to know, Mr. Bjelosevic, is whether the town commands were

 4     exclusively military bodies, or whether they were bodies that were

 5     chaired by a military commander but also included civilian

 6     representatives from the local area?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I fully understood your

 8     question.  In Odzak, it was an exclusively military administration

 9     comprising military officers.  In Derventa, some assistants appointed by

10     the operative group command were assistants to the town commander.  And

11     if I can remember, one of them was a woman, and then there were also

12     military officers among them.  So it was mixed, there were some civilians

13     in charge of certain matters.  I think that this lady was in charge of

14     legal affairs or something like that.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Anyway, they are outside the scope of

16     the indictment.

17             MS. KORNER:  Exactly, Your Honours.  Do you remember, there is a

18     document on the Derventa town command.  It was actually shown to one of

19     the witnesses or maybe more than one which sets out who it is.  For the

20     moment, I can't remember the number but if I do, I'll remind Your Honours

21     are that.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  I do remember the document, I just

23     wanted to have this witness's explanation.

24             Thank you very much, sir.

25             Back to you Mr. Zecevic.

Page 21205

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I propose that we adjourn at this point and

 2     that I start re-examination -- redirect examination after the break.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  By the way, Mr. Zecevic, how long do you

 4     anticipate that your re-examination would take?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it's very hard for me to say, Your Honours,

 6     because I anticipated at the beginning of today -- I anticipated around

 7     two, two and a half hours, but now there has been some other matters.  So

 8     I'm really not sure.  I have to review during the break the transcript

 9     and see what else do I need to ask.

10             JUDGE HALL:  The practical question I'm really thinking about is

11     in terms of your next witness, whether we should be thinking in terms of

12     him tomorrow morning or later this afternoon.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, well, Your Honours, I anticipated this

14     situation, and I already scheduled the witness for tomorrow morning, yes,

15     the next witness.  Thank you.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, while the witness is being brought in,

20     I just want to indicate I am Tom Hannis, now appearing in place for

21     Ms. Korner.  And also, she asked me to request that 65 ter 20138, which

22     is the document concerning criminal charges against Jozo Mandic, be

23     tendered and marked MFI.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

25             MR. HANNIS:  118.  118.

Page 21206

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And how about the military booklet, is that it?

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, if that was not tendered, we would like to

 3     tender it as well.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 20129 will become

 7     Exhibit P2344.  And 65 ter number 20138 will become Exhibit P2345.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, I am sorry.  Mr. Hannis offered the

10     document P2345 as MFI, and I didn't object because that is the -- that is

11     the practice that we adopted because all these documents are MFI'd

12     pending the submissions.  And the second document, 2344, which is a

13     military booklet, I do not object, and that can be tendered in evidence.

14     Can, please, the record reflect.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so the -- you got that?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document P2345 is thus marked for identification,

17     Your Honours.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.  May I?

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, good morning, Mr. Bjelosevic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I will first discuss with you the matters that you commented on

24     during the first session with Ms. Korner, and then after that we will go

25     back to the very beginning of your cross-examination and cover the

Page 21207

 1     matters that, in our opinion, Ms. Korner failed to touch upon.

 2             Sir, on page 3 of today's transcript --

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Well, I am sorry.  Based on that, I would like to

 4     impose an interjection at this point.  If he is going to ask about

 5     matters that Ms. Korner didn't touch on, then I would say that is beyond

 6     the scope of cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I don't think Mr. Zecevic intended to say what

 8     he came across as having said.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, precisely right.  If you will

10     remember, Ms. Korner on a couple of occasions stopped the witness during

11     his answers as saying, You will deal with that with Mr. Zecevic.  And

12     that is what I intend to question the witness about.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] On page 3, you replied to Ms. Korner's question

14     by saying, Yes, in the area of responsibility, the commander can issue

15     orders and order all structures on matters concerning defence.  And then

16     Ms. Korner, in line 16, suggested to you that that principle can be

17     applied only when the state of war has been declared, and you disagreed

18     with that.  You said that the state of the imminent threat of war was

19     identical in that sense.  And I have one question concerning that.

20             Mr. Bjelosevic, given the situation that existed in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina in May, April, and June of 1992, even though I think

22     it prevailed throughout 1992, was that, according to you, a de facto

23     state of war or not?

24        A.   Yes, it was a state of war.  It had all the features of the war

25     conflict.  It was just a matter of formal declaration of the state of war

Page 21208

 1     or imminent state of war.  But formally speaking, given all its features,

 2     it was a proper war conflict.

 3        Q.   On page 4, Ms. Korner asked you about your relationship with

 4     Colonel Lisica.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Could we please look at tab 135 of

 6     the Defence binder.  This is 1D263, tab 135.  Defence tab 135.

 7        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, is this your letter sent to the command of the

 8     operative group of the Serb army under the command of Colonel Lisica?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   In this letter, do you request that the police be withdrawn from

11     combat operations?

12        A.   Yes, I asked for the commander's approval for the police to be

13     withdrawn from combat action because of the deteriorating security

14     situation.  We needed these people in order to solve and stabilise the

15     situation and the security concerns.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] The next document is 1D264 which is

18     tab 231.  Tab 231.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this document, 231, or has

20     something been mixed up?

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Look at the monitor, please.

23        A.   Oh, yes, I see now.

24        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, tell me, please, what is this?  What is this

25     document?

Page 21209

 1        A.   This is the reply of Commander Lisica to the letter which we just

 2     saw, to my letter, where he explains, saying, I understand your proposal

 3     concerning the withdrawal of police from combat operations.

 4        Q.   I'm interested in his position regarding your request that police

 5     be withdrawn.  This is the penultimate sentence, or two sentences before

 6     the end.

 7        A.   Well, you can see it in the middle.  I do not authorise the

 8     withdrawal of police forces.  He has the executive power in this

 9     situation and in many others.  He made the executive decision.

10        Q.   In that same sentence, he makes some comments about the

11     territory.  Can you please tell us something about that?

12        A.   Yes, he says that he does not allow for the withdrawal to take

13     place because otherwise the front would be moved close to Doboj very

14     soon, and you will not have the territory to control at all.  And then he

15     goes on to say, I hope that you understood properly my reasons.  And his

16     reasons are fully justified.  I completely understand that.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, I'm sorry but you mention tab 231

19     for this document, which is obviously -- well, the transcript mentions

20     231 which is obviously not the document we discussed about because it is

21     said to be the international travel approval for Kreso [phoen], Ismet,

22     231.  It's another -- I don't even have a 65 ter number for that one.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's already exhibited, Your Honours.  It 1D264.  I

24     am sorry my tab numbers are mixed --

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  1?

Page 21210

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  1D264.  That is the document that we have on the

 2     monitor.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  1D263, 1D265.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, what I'm informed is that this

 5     document was not on the Defence list of documents they were going to use

 6     with the witness.  It was a document on the Prosecution's list, our tab

 7     number 119.  119.  So I think that's why you can't find a Defence tab for

 8     it.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm grateful for Mr. Hannis's assistance.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  264, that's right.  Thank you.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

12     document 1D406, which is under tab 58, if I'm not mistaken.  1D406.

13        Q.   This is an order by General Talic, the commander of the

14     1st Krajina Corps, about the assignment of zones of responsibility.  Let

15     us comment something on page 2, the second and third paragraphs from the

16     bottom.  The one I mean begins with, "The exclusive" --

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Let us turn the page in English,

18     please, to find the right paragraph.

19        Q.   Go ahead, please.

20        A.   "The exclusive right to command and employ units rests with the

21     zone commander as determined by this order."

22             And the following paragraph reads:

23             "In the conduct of combat activities, all police forces shall be

24     placed under the command of the zone commander who shall decide how they

25     are used."

Page 21211

 1        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, is this in line with what you stated earlier?

 2        A.   Yes.  And this is in accordance with the laws and regulations,

 3     and it also follows from the order issued by the corps commander.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  On page 4, line 50 -- correction 25, and page 5,

 5     line 2, Ms. Korner put it to you that the order by Colonel Lisica with

 6     regard to the police units from Prnjavor whom he ordered to come to

 7     Derventa, that this was in accordance with the setting up of the town

 8     command in Derventa.  That's what she put to you.  Did this order apply

 9     to the MUP members from the Prnjavor SJB?

10        A.   If I may, I would like to explain in more detail.  Because of the

11     complicated and difficult situation on the front line, Commander Lisica

12     ordered the entire police force from Derventa to be deployed to the front

13     line urgently.  He was aware that the city was left without any police,

14     and then he ordered the Prnjavor police to send their forces to Derventa

15     and take over police duties.

16        Q.   Did Colonel Lisica, as you have just explained, essentially issue

17     an order to two SJBs?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  He issued an order to the Derventa station about their

19     engagement at the front line, and an order to the Prnjavor SJB to deploy

20     police forces for policing in Derventa.  Those were two orders for two

21     stations.

22        Q.   Was such an order in accordance with the rules and regulations

23     that were in force then?

24        A.   Yes, both stations were in his zone of responsibility, and he

25     acted in accordance with his powers.

Page 21212

 1        Q.   Sir, speaking about this, and your respective comments can be

 2     found on pages 8, 9 and 10 of today's transcript, I'll ask you about

 3     document 1D46 which is under tab 47 in the Defence binder.  I apologise,

 4     it seems that I gave the wrong tab number again.  I also apologise to the

 5     Trial Chamber.  It's an order dated 15 May 1992.  Well, then, it's all

 6     right.  I apologise.

 7             You commented item 8 which is on page 2.  You were asked about it

 8     by Ms. Korner.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you also gave comments on subparagraph 2 of item 8.  Does

11     this subparagraph 2 -- or, rather, let me put it this way:  To which law

12     or regulation does this subparagraph refer to?  How do you understand it?

13        A.   This points to the measures to take against those who do not

14     carry out the tasks they have been given, and my understanding is that

15     this is about regular duties and tasks.  And in the previous

16     subparagraph, we can clearly see that the order says that in military

17     operations, military regulations and rules shall be enforced.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bjelosevic, since Ms. Korner asked you about some

19     hypothetical situations, allow me to ask you some questions, too.

20             Sir, if a MUP member is at the front line in a trench, and from

21     that place he sees that in some house or somewhere in his field of vision

22     some persons are obviously committing a crime by breaking into that house

23     and taking some items from it, in principle, is a police member, whenever

24     he observes the commission of a crime during the carrying out of his

25     regular duties, duty-bound to react if he observes the commission of a

Page 21213

 1     crime?  I'm talking about the carrying out of the regular duties.  What

 2     does the law say?

 3        A.   Yes, when he is carrying out his regular duties.  But, if I

 4     understand you correctly, you have described a situation when the police

 5     officer was in a trench.

 6        Q.   We'll get there yet.  So under the law, as a MUP member, you have

 7     said that normally he is duty-bound to react.  In this situation, when he

 8     is in a trench, does that MUP member -- or, rather, is that MUP member

 9     duty-bound to react or not?

10        A.   No.  At that moment, he is carrying out a combat task, and he is

11     duty-bound to act in the framework of the orders received when he is at

12     the front line.

13        Q.   In other words, if the police officer were carrying out his

14     regular duties in accordance with the law, and if he were to observe the

15     commission of a crime and fails to react --

16             MR. HANNIS:  I have to object.  This is leading, Your Honours.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  No --

18             JUDGE HALL:  As I understand it, he is still conducting his

19     hypotheticals which follows the line that Ms. Korner had done in

20     cross-examination.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Well I'm not sure, Your Honours.  He got an answer,

22     and now he is saying "in other words," and I see that as leading, but

23     I'll stand by ...

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's purely hypothetical, and I'm just doing what

25     Ms. Korner was doing half of the time this morning.

Page 21214

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, but Ms. Korner was on cross-exam.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I was refer together hypothetical nature of the

 3     questions, not the roles of the parties.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  And I was referring to the leading nature of the

 5     question.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  You have been warned, Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, when a police officer carrying out his regular

 9     duties observes or learns that the commission of a crime is in progress

10     and fails to act, does this constitute a disciplinary offence under the

11     Law on Internal Affairs?

12        A.   This would be a serious breach of his professional duties under

13     the rule book on disciplinary responsibility that was in force at the

14     time.

15        Q.   Let's now refer to the second situation when he is carrying out a

16     combat task and fails to act, although he observes the commission of a

17     crime.  Does that constitute a disciplinary offence?

18        A.   No, he is then carrying out a combat task and is duty-bound to

19     act exclusively in line with that role of his.

20        Q.   Would a MUP member who was carrying out a combat task in a trench

21     and observes the commission of a crime and then attempt to arrest those

22     committing a crime in accordance with his powers and duties under the

23     Law on Internal Affairs, would he be in breach of his duties as a member

24     of the armed forces?

25        A.   Yes, of course.  At that moment and at that place, that is, at

Page 21215

 1     the front line, that would constitute an offence against military rules

 2     and it could even be considered desertion.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bjelosevic, we have seen your military booklet

 4     and we'll show it once more.  You have the rank of captain in the armed

 5     forces, don't you?

 6        A.   Yes, and at some time in early 1992, I was informed that a

 7     decision -- a decision had been taken to promote me to captain 1st class

 8     but I never actually did anything to have that entered in my military

 9     booklet.

10        Q.   Sir, is the essence of commanding the armed forces in the

11     military the power of the commander to punish his subordinates?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Since you are a captain in the army, you must be familiar with

14     this.  Is the following situation possible in the army:  That the

15     commander, during the performance of a combat task, has different groups

16     of members of armed forces under him.  And when I say various groups, I

17     mean, on the one hand, those who can -- who he can command fully and

18     punish, and so on; and, on the other hand, those on whom he cannot impose

19     disciplinary measures or sanctions?

20        A.   Whatever is part of the organic compound of a unit is under the

21     full command of the commander.

22        Q.   Sir, I'm going to show you 1D410, tab 167.  I think that this

23     morning during cross-examination you spoke about this document to

24     Ms. Korner.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Can we have a reference to where that was?  I can't

Page 21216

 1     find it in WordWheel.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Just a second.  Page -- I'll read

 3     it out, page 20.

 4        Q.   Ms. Korner asked you, and I think that was the essence of her

 5     question, whether you have the order resubordinating you.  And then you

 6     mentioned that there was a written order issued sometime by the end of

 7     the year, and you said that it had been commented on earlier.  Tell me,

 8     is this the order that you referred to earlier?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry, can we have some clarification because

11     what I see on a screen is an order signed by Colonel Lisica.  And in the

12     page 20 and 21 where there was a reference of this, it appears to be the

13     witness previously said he thought it was an order signed by

14     General Talic.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, it's 20, line 17:

16             "And then the second time, it was in November 1992 when I was

17     engaged to perform functions of the battalion commander.  And in this --

18     and in this ... so to speak, there was no written order."

19             I am precisely asking the witness because the record is not

20     clear.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  My apology, thank you.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could you please answer the question, Mr. Bjelosevic?

24        A.   Yes, we spoke about the orders.  First, there was one in spring

25     1992, and this is the second order, dated 11th November 1992.  In this

Page 21217

 1     order, Commander Lisica ordered formation of a mixed battalion and then

 2     defined what is going to constitute this battalion.  Under item 2, he

 3     wrote:

 4             "I hereby appoint Andrija Bjelosevic as battalion commander,"

 5     that's me, "and Stijepan Pepic as deputy."

 6             And then under number 3:

 7             "Immediately carry out senior and junior command reconnaissance,

 8     assign tasks to subordinates in the field."

 9             So this is the order that was pertained to me, and I acted in

10     accordance with it.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic.  As I said, I would like to take a

12     look, again, your military booklet.  That's P2344 -- no, excuse me, it's

13     P2345.  It will appear on your screen in a second.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I stand corrected.  2344.  P2344.  I am sorry.

15     [Interpretation] I apologise, can we have page 4, item 7.  I would like

16     to clarify something and I hope that you will be able to help us now that

17     we have the opportunity to see this military booklet.  Can we zoom in.

18     I'm interested in item 7, number 1.

19        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, can you explain the abbreviation VES, V-E-S, as

20     well as the number that follows immediately after?  I'm talking about box

21     number 1, training?

22        A.   VES is the abbreviation for the military occupation specialty,

23     and it had a certain number designating this particular VES.  The number

24     defines the VES, the military occupational specialty.  This has to do

25     with the officer's cadre.  For instance, communications had some other

Page 21218

 1     number, a technical department had yet another number.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You have to understand that some of us here are not

 3     persons to whom military terminology is entirely clear.  Could you

 4     explain very briefly, what does it mean military occupational specialty?

 5     By that, I mean in simple words.

 6        A.   Well, to put it simply, it designates what a particular conscript

 7     had been trained to do, and this specialty is then entered in his

 8     personal files, in his unit as well as in his military booklet.  It means

 9     what a particular person had been trained to do.

10        Q.   Does that mean that if somebody is trained, for instance, to

11     operate a mortar in artillery, that he then is assigned a particular

12     number designated this particular military occupation specialty?

13        A.   Exactly.

14        Q.   And somebody who is trained to command would then be assigned a

15     different VES number?

16        A.   Yes.  The numbers designate the coded military occupational

17     specialty definition.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have now page 5, number 8,

20     promotions.  Could we have the next page.  I'm interested in number 6.

21     So number 6.  Thank you.  Can we have the same thing in English.

22        Q.   Sir, could you comment on this very briefly.  I'm interested in

23     item 6, on the basis of whose order, et cetera.

24        A.   If you would permit me, I'd like to comment on both pages very

25     briefly.  You can see that the promotion was gradual, from second

Page 21219

 1     lieutenant, lieutenant, and then, finally, under number 6, captain.

 2        Q.   Could you speak more slowly.

 3        A.   So you can see that every promotion is recorded here.  The rank

 4     is recorded and also on the basis of whose decree the promotion was made.

 5     The last promotion, under number 6, was done by decree of the commander

 6     of the TO of the SR BiH, and you can see the number and the date.  And

 7     then I was on a war time assignment in the command of an operational JNA

 8     unit before this.  You can see that the promotion, in this particular

 9     case, was made on the basis of a decree of the president of the SFRY.

10        Q.   You mean number 4?

11        A.   Yes, number 4.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Can the witness be

14     shown number 9 on the next page of the same document.  Number 9 under 1.

15     I mean number 9 that pertains to military exercises.  So I'm told it's

16     the sixth page in Serbian while we have the correct page in English.

17        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, could you briefly comment on numbers 1 and 2

18     under number 9, military exercise?

19        A.   This relates to the period in 1991 [as interpreted], number 1;

20     and number 2 relates to 1983.  That's when I had the war time assignment

21     in the command of that operation unit in the command of the 327th

22     Brigade.  So this is the record of the time that I spent participating in

23     a military exercise.  Based on such exercises and evaluations, proposals

24     for promotions would be made.

25             MR. HANNIS:  I wanted to ask for a clarification.  The transcript

Page 21220

 1     at line -- page 41, line 5, says, "this relates to the period 1991"; is

 2     that correct?

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's for number 1 of the entry.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, 1981.  1981 and 1983.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 6     page 8 in Serbian which is number 11.  I'm told it's page 14 in English.

 7        Q.   Could you give us a brief explanation of number 1 here?

 8        A.   That's the day that I was entered into military records.  It was

 9     in Derventa on the 22nd of April, 1971, so that's when I was entered into

10     military records.  After that, I was conscripted and all other things

11     that then follow.

12        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, you have the rank of captain and you worked for a

13     number of years in the National Defence Secretariat.  Did all citizens,

14     nationals, of the SFRY who were conscripted or fit for military service

15     have same military booklets as this one?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was this military training in the former SFRY an obligation for

18     everyone?

19        A.   Yes, that's something that stems from the concept of

20     All People's Defence, and then, out of this concept, a system of All

21     People's Defence was developed.  So there was the army, that is the

22     operative part of the structure, and then there was Territorial Defence.

23     There were different units classified to different principles.  Then

24     there were units of social self-protection that comprised also the

25     civilian protection units.  It was something that was defined in the

Page 21221

 1     constitution.  The constitution said that the defence of the country was

 2     both right and obligation of all citizens.  And in accordance to that,

 3     there was also a duty to train the civilian population, for instance, for

 4     evacuation, protection, and so on.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did every individual have the right and duty to

 6     respond and attend military exercises just like you did twice?

 7        A.   Of course.  Everyone had a duty to respond to such a call and to

 8     report to the place of his war time assignment.  It could have been a

 9     mobilisational exercise or simple training, but everyone had the duty to

10     respond to such call.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bjelosevic, I found the document that we

12     mentioned awhile ago.  So for completeness sake, I would like you to

13     comment on it.  It's tab 61, 65 ter 544D1.  Excuse me, I'm told it's

14     tab 120.  I have no idea why I have tab 61 written here.  Could I have

15     your brief comment on this.  What is it and what is it about?  I

16     apologise, forgive me, Mr. Bjelosevic, I'm being told now that you should

17     look at the monitor.  I was right, after all, it was tab 61, not 120.

18        A.   This is the order of the commander of Tactical Group 3,

19     Commander Lisica, whereby he orders that certain forces be set up and he

20     uses the jargon word for police, he says "gendarmerie."  That is what he

21     means.  To use the "gendarmerie" forces from Derventa, Prnjavor and then

22     a company of the Naradzic, Rajko Battalion, and so on.

23        Q.   And this Lieutenant Jankovic who is supposed to be the commander

24     of that unit, was he a member of the army?

25        A.   Yes, he was part of the town command, and by way of his order, he

Page 21222

 1     directly re-subordinated these police forces.  He -- by putting them at

 2     his disposal.

 3        Q.   Sir, when military administration is introduced -- I can show you

 4     the relevant document later on, but you let me ask you this first:  If

 5     military administration is being introduced, is it the commander who

 6     designates the officer to be in charge of the public security station and

 7     police in a particular town?

 8        A.   Yes.  If military administration is being introduced, and if a

 9     commander is being designated as the town commander, then all structures

10     who are located there, be it that they just find themselves there or that

11     they are being established by way of the order of that commander, all of

12     these structures, all of these forces are being put under the command of

13     the town commander.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If there are no

15     objections, I would like to have this document tendered.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, I'm not sure specifically how

17     this arises or relates to the cross-examine.  I'm working at a

18     disadvantage here because you know I came in cold off the bench this

19     morning, so I may have missed where it comes from.  But if it's going to

20     be admitted, I would request my learned friend make some clarification

21     because in the witness's answer at page 43, line 11 he said, "Yes,"

22     referring to Lieutenant Jankovic, "he was part of the town command, and

23     by way of his order he directly subordinated these police forces."  This

24     isn't Jankovic's order.  So either that answer is incorrect, or he is

25     referring to some other document than the one that's on the screen.

Page 21223

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Would you please clarify.  I don't want to repeat the question,

 3     and it is not entirely clear what Mr. Hannis is objecting.

 4        A.   Well, if that's what the transcript says, then my words were not

 5     recorded properly.  I said by way of this order, town commander Jankovic

 6     had this unit put directly under his command, the unit comprising the

 7     company under the command of Naradzic.  So these forces were established

 8     by way of the order of the commander of the tactical group, and these

 9     forces were directly put under the command of Lieutenant Jankovic by way

10     of this order.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I hope that this is a satisfactory

12     explanation.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D543, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  For reference of the

16     Trial Chamber, the documents mentioned by Ms. Korner concerning

17     introduction of military administration in Derventa municipality and

18     concerning the appointment of acting chief of the SJB, are 1D480, 1D408.

19        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, on page 12 of today's transcript --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are not sure whether

21     the first document mentioned was 1D480 or 1D470.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   When answering the question of Ms. Korner --

24             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, I don't know if my learned friend heard, but

25     the interpreters said they had a question about whether the first

Page 21224

 1     document mentioned at page 45, line 3, was 1D480 or 1D470.  I wonder if

 2     we could have a clarification.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, I'm sorry.  I'm rushing

 4     because of the time.  There are two documents I wanted to put on the

 5     record for the benefit of all.  It's 1D470 and 1D408.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, on page 12 -- actually, it started on

 7     page 11 and continued on to page 12, you spoke about some situations when

 8     the military commander handed down some punishments to policemen and then

 9     we went into private session to mention the names of some of these

10     people.  Then on page 12, you said how you could remember two such cases

11     and then you described them, and then Ms. Korner asked you -- or, rather,

12     she interrupted you and she said, No, no, I want something else.  You

13     said that they were arrested and that is not the same.  I wish to know

14     what disciplinary or criminal proceedings were instituted against these

15     people.  Then you said that the military had a different system and that

16     this was what you were trying to explain.

17             I gave you the context of this issue that was discussed

18     previously.  Now, let me ask you this:  Does the army fall under the

19     Law on State Administration?

20        A.   No, the army does not fall under that law.

21        Q.   Does the army have a disciplinary proceedings that could be

22     considered identical as the one that exists with relation to members of

23     the MUP and as regulated by the Law on Internal Affairs?

24        A.   No.  Public servants, policemen, and so on, they all fall under

25     the Law on State Administration plus the specific laws, such as the

Page 21225

 1     Law on Internal Affairs which regulates the work of policemen, and so on.

 2     As for the army, their legal framework consists of the Law on National

 3     Defence, Law on Service in Armed Forces, and this is a separate system.

 4     The commander is the person who metes out punishment or measures to

 5     members of the army and all of those who are in the process of carrying

 6     out a military assignment.  When it comes to state administration and

 7     police, there are all sorts of disciplinary commissions.  There are

 8     disciplinary proceedings that have completely different elements and

 9     rules.

10        Q.   Thank you for this clarification.  Therefore, I think you have

11     replied, but let us be fully clear.  Other disciplinary commissions,

12     disciplinary proceedings and disciplinary organs in the army, yes or no?

13        A.   No.  It functioned in accordance with unity of command and

14     singleness of command principle.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Based on military rules, who is authorised to send

16     somebody into military detention?

17        A.   It could be done at the level of the company commander and

18     higher.

19        Q.   And this punishment of military detention, was it meted out in

20     relation to members of the army?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, Mr. Bjelosevic, just one or two more questions

23     about what was discussed today, and then we will move on to topics that

24     were covered previously.  Today on page 17, line 7, Ms. Korner asked you

25     about the order that you received from Mr. Stanisic in 1994 when he

Page 21226

 1     served as minister for the second time.  You started explaining this to

 2     us and then on page 17, line 7, you said, no, this is something that

 3     happened in 1994.  This is when he gave me this task.  I was supposed to

 4     go to Prijedor.  I think it was sometime in April.  We had to solve the

 5     multiple murder where 16 or 17 people were killed.

 6             And this is where Ms. Korner interrupted you.  Tell us what this

 7     was about?

 8        A.   Yes, I started explaining --

 9             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry.  I object it's not relevant.  She didn't

10     interrupt.  He answered when she asked at line 11 on page 17:

11             "Sorry, this is a killing that took place in 1994?"

12             Answer:

13             "Yes."

14             Then she said:

15             "Don't worry about that.  It's outside what we are concerned

16     about."

17             So I don't see how this arises from cross-examination or how it's

18     relevant.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Perhaps the witness can take off his earphones and

20     then I can explain.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, Ms. Korner was citing this paragraph,

23     was asking this question because of the contents of the interview of

24     Mr. Mico Stanisic which is a P exhibit.  I will give you the reference.

25     I mentioned it in my opening statement.  It's actually a couple of

Page 21227

 1     exhibit numbers.  Now, this, this question goes into the credibility of

 2     what Mr. Stanisic was saying, and therefore because it was misinterpreted

 3     by Ms. Korner, I have to ask this question of this witness because it was

 4     she who opened this question by posing it.  And now I have to clarify it,

 5     Your Honour, because, by this, it could be understood that the witness

 6     agrees with her suggestion which is completely misinterpretation of what

 7     was said in the interview.

 8             Now, I want to clarify this situation very shortly, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  But we're still dealing with matters in 1994.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I guess I need some clarification

11     because Mr. Zecevic seemed to be saying that Ms. Korner misinterpreted

12     something from Mr. Stanisic's testimony that's in evidence?

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, his interview that's in evidence, P2303.

14             MR. HANNIS:  Where he --

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Where he talks about --

16             MR. HANNIS:  Where it recorded that he ordered this witness to

17     conduct an investigation into the Koricanske cliff killings.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, that's not the case.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Is that not what it says in the transcript?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's what it says in the transcript, but it

21     doesn't say so in the interview.  That's the point.

22             MR. HANNIS:  But this is not the witness to do it with.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness denied that.  He said he never got

24     that order.  So what is the problem?  And Ms. Korner didn't insist.  And

25     she didn't want to know about the killing in 1994.

Page 21228

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  I understand and appreciate.  I'm sorry,

 2     Your Honours.  It was my misunderstanding.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] You can put the headphones back on.  No need to

 4     answer this question because we have resolved this.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can I ask that we take the break now, Your Honours,

 6     because I'm ready to move to the previous phase.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, very well.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, while the witness is ushered in, I

12     was doing some preliminary inquiries about the possibility that we sit

13     longer today for half an hour, if possible, if I can -- because I would

14     like to finish with the witness today, if possible.  But I informed

15     Ms. Veretelnikova that I would be able to give the firm assessment only

16     at 1.30 because at that point I will know whether I can finish within

17     additional half an hour.  If not, then we will have to continue tomorrow

18     with the witness.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE HALL:  So between now and then, the usual inquiries would

21     be made.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, on page 20785 through -790, on

24     the first day of your cross-examination, you commented on your diaries

25     and official notebooks for Ms. Korner.  You may remember answering the

Page 21229

 1     Prosecutor's question whether you had notes from meetings that you had

 2     with General Talic or anybody else.  You replied in the negative.  This

 3     may be a good opportunity to remind ourselves that during military

 4     exercises before the war, we received military notebooks, and you will

 5     see in my military booklet that I took part this those exercises.  When

 6     the exercise finished, we were duty-bound to return the official

 7     notebooks before returning home.  Those were the rules that were in force

 8     in the army.  Do you remember that?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   Tell me, sir, does the Law on Internal Affairs contain any duties

11     of MUP members to have such official notebooks?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Does every military officer have an official notebook in army?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And once the official notebook is full, what must the officer do

16     with that notebook?

17        A.   He must return it.  Either when the notebook is full or when the

18     mission is accomplished, and before he leaves, but certainly there was an

19     obligation to return it.

20        Q.   To return it to who?

21        A.   To the command where it was issued.  Before leaving, all military

22     documents had to be returned.

23        Q.   And those military documents, as far as you know, if you know,

24     where were they kept after that?

25        A.   I know when I was in the brigade command that it was kept in a

Page 21230

 1     separate locker in the command, and when we would come there again for

 2     military exercise, then we would again be issued the notebooks.  And upon

 3     completion of the exercise, we would return them.  Where those documents

 4     eventually ended up, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Was it the same in 1992 when you were first re-subordinated to

 6     the JNA and then to the VRS?

 7        A.   Yes.  Upon completion of the task I was assigned, I had to return

 8     all my -- all the military documents and the equipment that I received

 9     when I got my military assignment.

10        Q.   Thank you.  On pages 20816 through -819, a document was shown to

11     you.  It's under tab 2 of the Prosecution binder.  It's 65 ter 20000.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see it on our

13     screens.

14        Q.   Let me remind you that this is the transcript of an intercept.

15     The conversation that was intercepted was one between Radovan Karadzic

16     and Branko Ostojic.  We've already spoken about this.  Ms. Korner put it

17     to you that -- what we can see on the first page towards the bottom --

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down.  In

19     Serbian it's the correct page but it's on the following page of the

20     English text.

21        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, Ms. Korner put it to you that the words, "He is a

22     good man," uttered by Branko Ostojic and Karadzic's reply, "Excellent, we

23     need a professional."  As well as the comment by Ostojic, "He is a real

24     one."  And Karadzic's words that follow, "We need a professional," that

25     all these refer to you.  When you read this transcript, do you agree with

Page 21231

 1     that proposition?

 2        A.   No.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, I'm being advised that what Ms. Korner put to

 4     him has not been correctly stated.  Can we have a precise reference.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I gave the reference to the pages 20816 to 20819,

 6     and Ms. Korner says:

 7             "Now, this is July, a couple of months after you've been

 8     appointed at CSB Doboj.  Do you have any idea on what basis Mr. Karadzic

 9     is calling you 'Andrija' and saying what an excellent fellow you are?"

10             Then I made the -- then I made the objection, and then Ms. Korner

11     said:

12             "Well, I'm sorry, this is a matter of comment and an improper

13     one, I may say, Mr. Zecevic."

14             And then she quotes the exact parts which I quoted.

15             JUDGE HALL:  I don't see the basis of the -- Mr. Hannis's

16     interjection that it inaccurately reflects what was put it him, but what

17     I do have difficulty with is Mr. Zecevic's question, "When you read this

18     question transcript, do you agree with that proposition?"  It seems,

19     among other thing, it's really unfair to the witness.  You are inviting

20     his comment on his own abilities by two persons who had a conversation

21     just referring to him.  I don't know how helpful any answer he gives

22     would be.  As I said, it strikes me as being unfair to him.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, if the witness is unable to answer, he may

24     say so.  I'm not trying to be unfair to him, I'm just trying to clarify

25     the situation.  Because in my understanding of the Serbian language, it

Page 21232

 1     is very clear to whom this refers to.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  No, when you said, "Do you agree with the

 3     proposition," perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question, but what I

 4     interpret it to mean is whether he agrees with the proposition attributed

 5     in the intercept of Karadzic, "Excellent we immediate a professional,"

 6     et cetera, where Ostojic said, "He is a good man."  That's what I said

 7     seems to be unfair to put the witness in a position of agreeing with

 8     that, but perhaps your question is not as I understand it.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  I guess that would be my request, Your Honour.  If

10     the question could be reformulated because the way I heard a question,

11     when the answer is no, one interpretation of that is the witness is

12     saying, No I don't agree that they said I was a good man, because I

13     wasn't a good man, perhaps.  I don't think that's what he meant but the

14     way the question is formulated, it's difficult to understand what the

15     answer means.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I accept that.  I will reformulate the question.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelosevic, I have read out this part of the

18     intercepted conversation.  Can you tell us who these comments refer to,

19     in your opinion?

20        A.   I have read this carefully and my conclusion is the following:

21     That Mr. Ostojic is asking Mr. Karadzic about some person, and this could

22     be interpreted as an intervention to hire someone, but the name is not

23     mentioned.  And then the way I understand it, Karadzic tells Ostojic that

24     this person should contact me in Doboj, and he is praising that person as

25     a good man, a professional.  And Mr. Karadzic is saying, "Excellent, we

Page 21233

 1     need a professional."  That's how I understand it.

 2        Q.   Do these comments refer to that person or to you?

 3        A.   I understand them to refer to that person they talked about.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  On page 20865 through -68 --

 5             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry, before we go on, could I request that

 6     the Court perhaps ask my learned friend to inquire of the witness whether

 7     he has only read the transcript or actually listened to the recording.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  I'm not sure how much turns on this, Mr. Hannis.

 9     Ms. Korner had an understanding of it.  She questioned the witness on it.

10     Mr. Zecevic has a different take and we have an answer.  I think we can

11     move on.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber would make such sense of it as it could.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

15     1D135.  I think that's under tab 18 in the Defence binder.  1D135.

16        Q.   Sir, on the pages I cited, you commented on this -- on this

17     summary of the minutes of a meeting held in Banja Luka on

18     11 February 1992.  You remember that you commented on this for

19     Ms. Korner?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And she -- or, rather, you read on page 2 in Serbian, something

22     that is on page 1 in English, I mean, the -- Mico Stanisic's words that a

23     list of minimal outstanding demands should be assembled at this meeting

24     and submitted to Minister Alija Delimustafic.  Do you remember?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21234

 1        Q.   Ms. Korner put to you that this conclusion is not mentioned among

 2     the other conclusions, namely that these demands should be submitted to

 3     Minister Delimustafic with a dead-line for the resolution among other

 4     things because this was a secret meeting in Banja Luka which you

 5     attended.

 6             Please take a look at page 4 of this document.  And focus on

 7     Mr. Malko Koroman's comment.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I'm sorry, please continue.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Sir, you were present at this meeting.  Do you remember the words

13     of Mr. Koroman?

14        A.   Yes.  Mr. Koroman took a radical stand.  It may even be called an

15     ultimatum, and he wanted to cut the whole meeting short.  It boils down

16     to, Okay, we have established what we need and we must submit a demand to

17     get that, and if that demand is not met, then we'll block roads, and so

18     on.

19        Q.   Please take a look at page 5 in Serbian.  We can stay on the same

20     page in English, and -- I mean, the comment of Mr. Nedjo Vlaski.  Do you

21     remember what he said at that meeting?

22        A.   Yes, I remember Nedjo and his words.

23        Q.   Do you remember that Mr. Vlaski advocated strong media support

24     and informing the public of the demands formulated at this meeting?

25        A.   Yes.  There was a number of people participating in the

Page 21235

 1     discussion who emphasised the need to go into the media with this.  They

 2     considered that it was possible to exert greater pressure on

 3     Minister Delimustafic and his associates through the media and then the

 4     demands would be met.

 5        Q.   On page 20865 and -868, Ms. Korner suggested reasons because of

 6     which Zepinic did not attend the meeting.  She asked you on page 20869

 7     and -870 whether you informed Mr. Zepinic about your complaints.  The day

 8     before we saw in your diary that you met Mr. Zepinic on the 10th of

 9     February as well as Delimustafic.  And your reply was:

10             "I told him on a number of occasions before he went to Sarajevo

11     and also through the phone.  Every time when he promised that he would

12     solve the problem, he would complain that the chief of the personnel

13     department had been replaced, and Vesinovic [phoen] left, Srebrenikovic

14     arrived, and he was the one who pulled all the strings and that nothing

15     could be done at the moment."

16             This answer is not quite clear in the transcript.  Could you

17     please explain what you were referring to when you said those words.  And

18     who are those people, Vesinovic, for instance?

19        A.   Vesinovic must be a misprint.  It's Hilmo Selimovic.  He was the

20     assistant minister for personnel, if I remember correctly, until the

21     autumn 1991 or the fall of 1991.  He was replaced by Srebrenikovic.  So

22     these are the names.  Now, what did I say about this?  I put forward a

23     number of proposals for different appointments as well as proposals to

24     obtain certain technical equipment for the service.  You can see that in

25     my notebooks.  Very often at meetings with my own associates, I discussed

Page 21236

 1     those subjects.  I also made for myself an aide-memoire before I went to

 2     the ministry in Sarajevo so that I would know what I had to request

 3     there.  But it took ages and finally it wasn't resolved, and that's what

 4     I was talking about.

 5             Now, the lack of efficiency and this personal blockade, so to

 6     speak, made me conclude, in the end, that Mr. Zepinic had neither the

 7     power nor personality to resolve that, and he confirmed it to me at some

 8     point.

 9        Q.   Let us clarify this.  Did Mr. Zepinic complain to you that

10     because of the replacement of Mr. Selimovic, he was not in a position to

11     ensure that the things that had been requested for him be realised in the

12     MUP of the Socialist Republic of BiH?

13        A.   Yes.  I think that he told me twice to go and contact another

14     department chief.  I think the name was Hajra Hodzic.  He told me to

15     speak to him directly and try to obtain what I needed from him.  Hajra

16     received me very politely and courteously and we spoke, but he clearly

17     told me without the approval of Assistant Chief Srebrenikovic, he could

18     not do a thing because those were his orders.

19        Q.   Thank you.  On page 20900 and -901, you were shown document P439.

20     That's Prosecution tab 11 bis.  And it's stenographic minutes of the

21     Assembly of RS held on Pale on the 24th of March, 1992.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we show to the witness page 31

23     in Serbian.  ERN number is 0089-6886.

24        Q.   You remember that you commented on this?  Ms. Korner read some

25     excerpts from this stenograph.

Page 21237

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I would like you to comment on the first paragraph and the second

 3     paragraph on this page.

 4        A.   Let me read it first.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Can we have a reference to the English page, if you

 6     have it.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, I'm trying to find in the transcript.

 8     Thirteen, I guess, in the e-court.  That's what Ms. Korner says.  We have

 9     the correct Serbian page.  No, no, we had the correct Serbian page.  The

10     English page was -- the Serbian page is 31 and the English should be 13.

11     Sorry, we have the wrong English page.  I'm reading from the transcript

12     what Ms. Korner was saying and that is why I am ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that this was mentioned.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you just wait until we find

15     it in English.  [In English] It's the speech of Dr. Karadzic.

16     [Interpretation] It could be page 17 in English.  Yes, it's the correct

17     page.

18        Q.   The two paragraphs that I want you to comment on which are

19     positioned at the top of the page in Serbian.  In English, they are two

20     paragraphs from the bottom beginning with words, "Newly-established

21     municipalities."  Now we have it on the screen, so could you comment on

22     it.

23        A.   This is already the time when many paramilitary units had been

24     established in the field, and also they were known to the public.  That

25     is also the time when barricades had been erected, so seen within this

Page 21238

 1     context, I think that this is a request to establish the forces in those

 2     newly-formed municipalities who were supposed to prevent any threats

 3     directed at the territory, any incursions of armed forces, and they speak

 4     here about mini-vans.  If I can remember that time correctly, this

 5     probably relates to the transport of large quantities of dinar bank notes

 6     which were then transported from Croatia, literally, in mini-vans.  That

 7     money was used to buy foreign currency in Bosnia-Herzegovina which was

 8     then taken out of the country.  And if you read my notes, as well as

 9     informative bulletins, that there was a lot of attention given to this

10     particular issue in our area because we wanted to prevent the foreign

11     currency leaving Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   What was then the position of Mr. Karadzic on two issues here,

13     that is the freedom of movement of citizens and the public order?

14        A.   Yes, he underlines that these measures would not endanger the

15     freedom of movement.  And also he says peace at any cost, wherever it is

16     possible.  I see that he is very worried about the events in Gorazde.  He

17     says that it's very dangerous, that it is necessary to avoid it, and so

18     on.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In the context of this speech by Karadzic and it's

20     interpretation by Ms. Korner on page 20903 up to 20905, she linked up the

21     events in Doboj on the 2nd and 3rd of May and the speech by Mr. Karadzic

22     at this Assembly session on the 24th of March.  You responded to that.

23     However, part of your reply at 20903 contains the following words:

24             "If you permit me, I would like to clarify the situation.  The

25     events in Doboj occurred between the 2nd and 3rd of May.  However, before

Page 21239

 1     that in March, there was the take-over of the public security station

 2     which was carried out by HOS and other paramilitary groups in

 3     Bosanski Brod."

 4             Can you explain what you were referring to here?  What is HOS and

 5     what other paramilitary groups?

 6        A.   I believe I already spoke about the paramilitary formation that

 7     existed in that period of time.  Now, if we talk specifically about Brod,

 8     there were forces organised there which went to the battle-field in

 9     Croatia already in 1991, and their strength was growing.  Later on, there

10     were also Croatian Armed Forces.  I think I also mentioned that

11     Anto Prkacin appeared in a TV show, and I brought this video on a CD, so

12     you can see that he explains in detail how he executed the action of the

13     take-over of the public security station in Brod which he did, as he put

14     it, with his men.  And that's when he --

15             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, the question was:

16             "What is HOS and what are the other paramilitary groups?"

17             This answer is going far beyond the question.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Just make it short, Mr. Bjelosevic, I agree.

20        A.   There were paramilitary formations, as I have already said.

21     There was the Patriotic League, there were units within the HDZ which

22     were practically the extended arm of the National Guards Corps units and

23     they were also the Green Berets, plus the units that had crossed over

24     from Croatia.

25        Q.   Sir, further in that same answer, you say:

Page 21240

 1             "Then the station in Derventa was taken over.  We also had the

 2     situation in Odzak.  And then in some parts, there were camps set up

 3     where civilians were being held.  The same happened in Modrica.  So we

 4     basically had the situation, which, for all intents and purposes, meant

 5     the occupation of the territory.  The camps had already been established,

 6     population already expelled from some parts, civilian population.  And it

 7     was only after that that the decision was made that Doboj should at least

 8     be spared of that same fate, that we should prevent these same events

 9     taking place in Doboj."

10             You mentioned camps in two places.  You also mentioned civilians

11     being expelled.  I would like to ask you this:  Which camps did you have

12     in mind?  Who had set them up and who held them?  And members of which

13     ethnic community did you refer to when you spoke of civilian population?

14             MR. HANNIS:  That's a compound question with about five parts.

15     Could we take them one at a time.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Please answer one at a time.  Which camps?  Who set them up?  And

18     the third question was members of which ethnic community did you refer

19     to?

20        A.   Paramilitary forces in the northern part of

21     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the units that had come from Croatia took over

22     the public security station and the bridge, crossed over and started

23     taking up territory.  They took the city of Bosanski Brod and then

24     started attacking villages, one by one, which resulted in population

25     being expelled, refugees, and so on.  This wave spread from Doboj -- from

Page 21241

 1     Brod to Derventa and down south.  And then a camp was set up at the

 2     Polet [phoen] stadium, and the forces that I have enumerated held the

 3     captured Serb population there.  The next camp was set up in Tulek, in

 4     the town itself.  And then, later on, in April, a camp was set up in

 5     Derventa by those same forces, and Serb civilians were held there.  Later

 6     on, there was a camp in Radic [phoen] where there were military

 7     facilities and hangars.  And subsequently, another camp was set up in

 8     Polje where there were silos where the feed mill was.  Whereas in Odzak,

 9     there was a camp in a plant called Stolit [phoen].  And then, later on,

10     there were even other instances of mass capture of Serb civilians and

11     then the camp was set up in an elementary school.  So this wave was

12     moving closer to Doboj.  And the JNA issued an explicit order that Doboj

13     should be protected and control of it maintained.

14        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic, let me ask you this first:  The situation that

15     you just described in your answer, did that cause fear in Doboj, these

16     facts that you just enumerated?

17        A.   Naturally.  A huge number of refugees came from the northern part

18     to Banja Luka and to Doboj.  People brought with themselves these stories

19     about what they had experienced.  Those who didn't manage to flee were

20     sent to camps.

21        Q.   You said earlier that the JNA issued an explicit order that Doboj

22     should be protected and that they should keep Doboj under their control.

23     So tell me, please, who was the commander of the JNA garrison in Doboj at

24     the time?

25        A.   It was Lieutenant-Colonel Cazim Hadzic.

Page 21242

 1        Q.   What was the ethnicity of Mr. Hadzic?

 2        A.   He was a Muslim, but I think that he declared himself as a

 3     Yugoslav, if I remember well.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  At one point, Ms. Korner asked you about

 5     Mr. Stankovic, and you said that Stankovic was a major at the time.  What

 6     was his position at the time?

 7        A.   Major Stankovic arrived in 1991, arrived in Doboj.  To tell you

 8     the truth, I don't know his exact establishment position.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, on page 20908 and -909, you discussed with

10     Ms. Korner the dispatch of the 31st of March, 1991, signed by

11     Assistant Minister Momcilo Mandic.  P353.  In your reply, you said the

12     following:

13             "It is quite clear what is being said here.  However, I have to

14     tell you that after this dispatch there was a series of dispatches, that

15     it had been agreed and that a collegium was held with

16     Minister Delimustafic, and then there were denials that it took place, so

17     the situation was quite confusing.  Therefore, at that point in time it

18     wasn't practically possible to understand what situation would be

19     ultimately.  Something was going on, everything was possible, and so on."

20             I wish to show you a document that we received from the OTP, in

21     the meantime.  That is to say, I didn't show it to you before.  And

22     following that, this document was shown to another witness for the first

23     time.  This is 2320 MFI'd.

24             So I would like you to tell us whether you know this document or

25     not.

Page 21243

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, before the witness answers.  I have an

 2     objection.  It's my understanding this was not on the original list of

 3     documents the Defence intended to use with the witness.  It seems clearly

 4     it's something that they could have done so.  I received notice, I don't

 5     know, 15, 20 minutes ago that they were now proposing to add it to their

 6     list.  I'm not sure to what aspect of cross-examination it goes to and

 7     why it wasn't on their list before.  It has been marked as P2320 MFI.  If

 8     Mr. Zecevic want to have it received in evidence without the MFI, then

 9     I'm willing to do it and have him talk about it.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Then I am opposed to him using it with this witness.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  But, Your Honours, of course I can't anticipate

13     what will the cross-examination of the witness bring, what issues will be

14     discussed between the cross-examining party and the witness.  Once they

15     finish their cross-examination, then I can add some documents and for the

16     redirect, and clearly this has been a situation in a number of occasions

17     in the past when the Office of the Prosecutor were --

18             JUDGE HALL:  I'm inclined to agree, Mr. Zecevic.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, but you haven't addressed the issue of

21     why it wasn't on their list before.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Well, as Mr. Zecevic -- well, first of all, we

23     haven't heard the precise question as being put, but as Mr. Zecevic just

24     said, is that the nature of the whole forensic exercise is such that the

25     utility or relevance of a particular document may only become apparent

Page 21244

 1     after, in this case, the cross-examination.  So I don't know that -- how

 2     we can impose a rule on him to -- that would not permit him to use this

 3     document, the relevance of which is only now apparently become apparent.

 4     I hate to sound redundant.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry.  I do understand that, Your Honour and

 6     I've certainly been on the other side of that situation myself.  However,

 7     he has directed this witness to his testimony on the 19th of May at page

 8     20908.  That's been several days ago, and it seems like if he was aware

 9     of it, he could have given us notice before this morning that it was

10     something he intended to use or wanted to add to his list.  That's my

11     objection.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, Mr. Zecevic.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, could we have a tab number.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't have a tab number, Your Honour.  I just

15     added it.  I am sorry.  It's the document that we have on the screens.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But it is on the Prosecutor's list, isn't it?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, it's not.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's not, I am sorry.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, it was on our list to use with

20     Defence expert, Mr. Bajagic, was the first time it appeared on the list.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Sir, do you remember this document?  Can you tell us anything

23     about it, whether you ever received it, whether you are familiar at all

24     with this document?

25        A.   Among the great number of dispatches, and, as I have told you,

Page 21245

 1     there were all kinds of writings indicating that, yes, a collegium had

 2     been held and then it was denied, and then again we received information

 3     that it had been held.  So I'm not sure.  I recognise some of these

 4     signatures, but right now I couldn't remember.  I don't want to

 5     improvise.

 6        Q.   No, no, I'm not asking you to acknowledge this document.  I am

 7     just asking you whether you ever received it?

 8        A.   I don't remember.

 9        Q.   Sir, on page 20910 and -911, you discussed with Ms. Korner your

10     diary.  And she asked you about the meeting held on the 11th of July in

11     Belgrade, the first meeting, collegium.  No, first it was the meeting in

12     February and the dispatch from Mr. Mandic.  I apologise.  I gave you the

13     wrong reference.  It is 20909.  So between the meeting held on the

14     11th of February and this dispatch of Mr. Mandic, Ms. Korner wanted to

15     know whether you had attended a meeting in Sarajevo with other high

16     officials of the Serbian MUP.  You answered no.  Then she asked you, or

17     rather, she referred you to the words of Mr. Zupljanin uttered at the

18     meeting in July where Mr. Zupljanin, according to Ms. Korner, said

19     something to the effect that, It's been a long time since we met in

20     Sarajevo.  Then she asked you again whether you had a meeting in

21     Sarajevo, and you replied that you didn't remember meeting in Sarajevo

22     under those circumstances, in that composition, and so on.

23             Sir, in your diary, do you have an entry about the meeting held

24     in Banja Luka on the 11th of February?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the answer, please.

Page 21246

 1             JUDGE HALL:  I don't know whether the witness answered, but the

 2     interpreter is asking him to repeat his answer.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Please repeat your answer.  It wasn't recorded.

 5        A.   I don't know until I take a look.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will clearly not be

 7     able to finish today.  So, therefore, I don't think it makes sense that

 8     we ask for additional half an hour sitting today.  We will have to

 9     continue tomorrow.

10             JUDGE HALL:  So noted.  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I entered this in my

12     diary.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I'm sure that I saw it somewhere, but I'll get back to it

15     tomorrow when we return to the issue of your diary.

16             Mr. Bjelosevic --

17        A.   Oh, yes, yes, I apologise.  11292 BL which stands for Banja Luka,

18     yes.

19        Q.   Well, yes, but we'll deal with it tomorrow.  Just one more

20     question:  Did you enter all meetings you considered important in your

21     diary?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, a hypothetical question:  If such a meeting had taken place

24     in Sarajevo, would you have entered it in your diary?

25        A.   Yes, of course.

Page 21247

 1        Q.   On page 20911 through -13, you commented on document 1D455 for

 2     Ms. Korner.  That's at tab 31 in the OTP binder.  You are about to see

 3     the document on your screen.  It's an invitation sent out to the SJBs to

 4     come to a meeting in Doboj on 1 April 1992.  You commented on it with

 5     Ms. Korner.  I'm asking you this just in order to clarify the transcript,

 6     which, to my mind, was somewhat unclear with regard to your answer.

 7             Ms. Korner put to you that this meeting had something to do with

 8     Mr. Mandic's dispatch, dated 31 March, but you denied that.  So now tell

 9     us:  Who sent out this letter on your behalf and what was his position in

10     the Doboj CSB?

11        A.   The dispatch was signed by Mr. Vojo Blagojevic, who was chief of

12     the department of the police.  The commanders of police stations were

13     under his direct authority due to the line of work.

14        Q.   It's good that you told us that.  Tell us so that we understand

15     better, what is the hierarchy in public security stations or police

16     stations?  Who is number one, who is number two and so on?  But we only

17     need the three highest ranking officials.

18        A.   The public security station is run by the station chief.  The

19     second -- second highest ranking in the hierarchy is the commander of the

20     police station.  And if there was a traffic police station, then there

21     was also the commander of that station.  That was under his direct

22     authority and according to the line of work.  Well, there was also the

23     crime enforcement detachment.

24        Q.   So there's a connection according to the line of work.  This

25     connection between the executive personnel of the SJBs and the -- on one

Page 21248

 1     hand, and the CSB on the other, how -- what was it like exactly?  To who

 2     did the SJB commanders report according to the line of work?

 3        A.   The commanders reported to the department of the police, if we

 4     are speaking about the line of work.

 5        Q.   Does that mean that the chief of the department of the police at

 6     the CSB has authority over the commanders of SJBs in the territory

 7     according to the line of work?

 8        A.   Yes, they were subordinate to him and reported to him.

 9        Q.   Just one more clarification about this document.  Paragraph 2

10     reads:

11             "SM and SMBS commanders must attend the meeting."

12             You have just explained who the SM commanders are, do explain the

13     abbreviation SMBS.

14        A.   SMBS stands for traffic police station.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic.  Sir, when there's a meeting of people

16     in the same line of work, does that mean, in principle, that the chief of

17     the CSB attend such a meeting?

18        A.   Well, that depends.  It was not mandatory, but he could attend

19     the meeting depending on the topics to be dealt with and the agenda,

20     his -- whether he had time available, other commitments, et cetera.

21     Certainly he was not duty-bound to attend.

22        Q.   Thank you.  When Ms. Korner insisted that you say whether you and

23     your executive officials at the CSB had a meeting after the dispatch

24     dated 31 March which was sent out by Momcilo Mandic, to which question

25     you answered in the negative saying, "No, I never held such a meeting."

Page 21249

 1     And then on page 20918, you explained by saying:

 2             "I do not agree with you.  During that period, I made every

 3     effort to preserve a stable situation and peace, and you can call it

 4     whatever you please.  Up until that moment, I had the opportunity to see

 5     what was happening in the territories affected by the war.  I saw what

 6     was happening to the victims and refugees and all the evils of war.  That

 7     is why I wanted to preserve the peace."

 8             Mr. Bjelosevic, when you said that you saw what was happening in

 9     the war zone and what was happening with the victims and refugees and all

10     the evils of war, what exactly did you have in mind, but very briefly,

11     please?  Which time-period and which territory were you referring to?

12        A.   On that occasion, I had in mind what was happening in the area

13     around Bosanski Brod, Derventa, Odzak, and so on, and the horrible things

14     people were going through there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I may be able to use the remaining time for a couple

16     of questions.  On page 20935 through -40, Ms. Korner showed you the

17     Law on Internal Affairs which is P530 here, and it's at tab 10A of the

18     Defence binder.  You are about to see the document on your screen.  What

19     we are interested in is page 2 of the Serbian version, Article 10 of the

20     law.  Then Ms. Korner asked you about Article 10.  And on page 20935, you

21     answered:

22             "Yes, in the police jargon this was called 'assistance.'  Like,

23     for example, some other government bodies must carry out a decision of,

24     say, the inspectorate when we talk about a construction project, for

25     example.  And the construction inspectorate prohibits the construction of

Page 21250

 1     a building and orders that what has already been built must be

 2     demolished.  Then the police, in such a case, provides assistance to able

 3     the construction inspectorate to demolish that building or part of the

 4     building."

 5             Sir, is the police duty-bound to provide such assistance only to

 6     bodies that exercise public authority or any state body?

 7        A.   All those who enforce the law and in the process meet with

 8     resistance on the part of those to who the law is applied.  So if

 9     somebody is unable to enforce their decision, then you apply for

10     assistance to the police and the police can help them do their job.  We

11     are talking about various institutions, not only inspectorates.  For

12     example, the social welfare centre or others.

13        Q.   Well, you're introduction was good.  But is the police duty bound

14     under the law to provide assistance to enforce a court decision, for

15     example?

16        A.   Yes, of course.

17        Q.   The example you gave where a court decides that a child be given

18     to one parent for custody, but the child is currently in the custody of

19     the other parent, does the executive body of the court apply for

20     assistance from the police if they have reason to assume that there will

21     be problems of any kind?  And is the police duty-bound to act in

22     accordance with such an application?

23        A.   Yes.  When a court issues such an application, the police is

24     duty-bound to provide assistance.

25        Q.   Thank you.  The last paragraph of Article 10 which says that

Page 21251

 1     before reaching a decision as outlined in the preceding paragraph, the

 2     consent of the minister must be obtained.  As far as you know, was the

 3     chief of an SJB always duty-bound to apply for consent of the minister or

 4     only in such cases when, according to his assessment, there could be

 5     physical resistance or use of fire-arms?

 6        A.   Upon reception of a request for assistance, an assessment is

 7     made, a risk assessment with regard to the enforcement of that decision.

 8     And it is exactly as it is stated here.  If the assessment is that there

 9     could be more massive resistance or even armed resistance, then the

10     station chief is duty-bound to inform the superior official and apply for

11     approval or consent.

12        Q.   Does this provision of the law apply only to assistants as

13     request by other state bodies that exercise public powers?

14        A.   Yes, that's what it says, too.

15        Q.   And in all other cases, does the police act pursuant to the

16     provisions of the Law on Internal Affairs?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bjelosevic, we will

19     have to continue tomorrow.  I know that you have been here for quite

20     awhile but I promise we will certainly finish tomorrow before the first

21     break.

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow morning.

23     And we are in this courtroom for the entirety of this week.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.

Page 21252

 1                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of May,

 2                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.