1 Friday, 24 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours. Belinda Pidwell and
11 Indah Susanti for the Prosecution today.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
14 Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic
16 appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And if there is nothing to detain us,
18 may the usher please escort the witness back to the stand.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Tusevljak, good morning to you. Again I give
21 you the usual warning as to your solemn declaration before Mr. Zecevic
22 begins his re-examination.
23 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 WITNESS: SIMO TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Re-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.
4 Mr. Tusevljak, at page 22493, the Thursday, your
5 cross-examination, Ms. Korner read back to you a portion of the
6 transcript from the Milosevic case; do you remember that?
7 A. You'll have to remind me because there's been a lot of talking
9 Q. Ms. Korner read back to you a portion of the Milosevic transcript
10 and conveyed to you one of the questions that you were asked during the
11 Milosevic trial. "Sir" -- during your cross-examination in that case,
12 that means.
13 "Sir, do you remember between 1992 and 1995 any situation in
14 which you carried out an investigation looking into war crimes against
15 members of the SRK which you then passed on to the military prosecutor?"
16 Your answer:
17 "No, not in relation to war crimes, no."
18 And then Ms. Korner went on to ask you if your answer at the time
19 was accurate, which you confirmed. You remember that, sir, don't you?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Can you just please repeat your answer. You have to try and
22 enunciate a bit more clearly because the answer reflects you saying no,
23 in the negative.
24 A. Yes, the answer is yes. I did answer that to Ms. Korner at the
1 Q. Sir, my question to you was: Do you remember this particular
2 portion of your conversation or exchange with Ms. Korner?
3 A. Yes, indeed I do.
4 Q. Sir, during your chief and your cross you were shown that
5 criminal reports against a person named (redacted) issued for a war crime
6 committed in the Vogosca territory; do you remember that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Was that back in 1992?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was that crime -- that criminal report forwarded to the military
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How is your answer from the Milosevic case to be understood,
14 then, compared to what you are telling us now?
15 A. If you look at the signature at the foot of that criminal report,
16 you will see that it says Zivko Lazarevic, chief of the Vogosca Public
17 Security Station. I was asked whether I did that myself and I said no,
18 but quite obviously the Vogosca Public Security Station filed that
19 criminal report.
20 Q. Thank you for this clarification, sir.
21 At page 22494, the continuation of the previous exchange, you
22 were asked this question by Ms. Korner. I'll need to read this in
23 English in order not to have to back translate the LiveNote, and you will
24 be receiving interpretation.
25 [English] "All right. Now, the only question I'm putting to you
1 at the moment - I'm going to come back to the book - is that the only war
2 crimes that you actually spent any time investigating properly were those
3 where Serbs were alleged to be the victims? So you either agree with
4 that or you don't agree; that's all it requires."
5 And your answer:
6 "No. And I can give you some examples now. The reports against
7 Jadranko Jeberovic [phoen]" - and it has a question mark - "for the
8 murder of Bosniaks and Croats; a report of Predrag Djurovic, I believe
9 that's what he was called, for raping a Bosniak woman."
10 And further down:
11 "That's what I can recall at the moment. These people weren't
12 reported for war crimes, but they were reported for aggravated murder by
13 the police station, not the centre but by the police stations."
14 [Interpretation] Do you remember this portion of your
15 conversation with Ms. Korner?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. You referred to these two specific cases: Jadranko, I think the
18 last name was misrecorded, and Predrag Djurovic, these two specific
19 cases; what were those in reference to?
20 A. Those were cases of aggravated murder on the one hand and rape on
21 the other.
22 Q. Did you personally produce either of these criminal reports?
23 A. Yes, the former.
24 Q. When you say the former, which one do you have in mind
25 specifically? Which person and what event?
1 A. Jadranko Dilberovic, the murder of those two persons.
2 My apologies, I can't follow the transcript over here.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Can the usher help because the witness cannot
4 follow the transcript on his monitor, so ...
5 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please slowly and articulately tell
6 us the name of this reported person, the first name, then his last name,
7 and where the crime occurred.
8 A. Jadranko Dilberovic. The crime occurred at Grbavica. The
9 Ministry of the Interior put this person into custody, and criminal
10 charges were brought against this person for aggravated murder,
11 Article 2.
12 Q. And the victims were?
13 A. One victim was a Muslim, Bosniak, and the other victim was a
15 Q. When did this crime occur?
16 A. I believe in May 1992, although it has been a long time and I can
17 no longer be certain about the timing. I think it was right at the
18 beginning of the war, meaning May.
19 Q. Thank you. At page 22502, you had another exchange with
20 Ms. Korner about the number of perpetrators, systemisation, organisation
21 of the centre, and such-like. Do you remember that, sir?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Sir, if you remember, the Sarajevo Public Security Station,
24 within the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, how many
25 public security stations did it number back then?
1 A. As far as I remember, 22 public security stations.
2 Q. Was there any substantial difference in terms of how each were
3 organised between the Sarajevo Security Services Centre in the
4 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Security Services Centre
5 Sarajevo Romanija-Birac when it was part of the RS MUP?
6 A. In terms of the organisation of the actual work and the actual
7 posts, I don't think there were any differences. I think the previous
8 model was simply copied.
9 Q. What about the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre
10 of the RS MUP in terms of how it was organised, in terms of its
11 organisational structure, did it include the Sarajevo SUP, the one that
12 covered Sarajevo's municipalities that fell under the RS?
13 A. No, there was no Sarajevo SUP like that.
14 Q. Did that fact have any bearing whatsoever on the progress and
15 co-ordination of public security stations throughout Sarajevo territory
16 during the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre's operation?
17 A. I think that due to the fact that the Sarajevo SUP within the
18 Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre didn't exist our
19 communication was more difficult when we worked with these urban public
20 security stations simply because there was no one mediating and
21 co-ordinating our work.
22 Q. Thank you very much. At page 22537 you were asked the following
23 question by Ms. Korner, again in English for the transcript:
24 [In English] "Well, you see, it might be that I misunderstood the
25 tenor of your evidence, Mr. Tusevljak, in which case I'll stop taking you
1 through this rather tedious exercise of having a look at payrolls.
2 You're not saying, are you, therefore, that no crime police were
3 operating anywhere in a Serb-held territories in the Sarajevo area?
4 "Yes"; that's your answer.
5 "Yes, if you understand what I mean, if I understood the question
6 correctly, some stations functioned and in some police station it didn't
7 function at all."
8 "Q. And you don't know one way or the other, do you, which
9 police station it was functioning in and which it wasn't?"
10 "A. Well, if you show me the list, I can tell you where
11 operatives existed and where there were no operatives at all.
12 "Q. Right. Well, have a look, please," at another document.
13 [Interpretation] Ms. Korner never confronted you with that list
14 following the exchange.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, can the witness please
16 be shown 65 ter 10138.8A.
17 Q. Sir, you've seen this document before. It shows the structure of
18 the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre as it was in
19 April through December 1992.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Tab number?
21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, it's in the Prosecutor's
22 binder. If you bear with me, I will --
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. That's already helpful to know.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'll ask you to use a pen --
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this on our
2 screens. Thank you. Well, I'm informed that we are experiencing some
3 problems with e-court, so perhaps we can return back to this a bit later.
4 Q. Sir --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, does this mean that none of the documents
6 can be shown to the witness at the moment?
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, inasmuch as the witness has been using
9 the binders with the hard copies rather than the screen, can't we proceed
10 in that -- along that line?
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm afraid, Your Honours, the witness has
12 only a binder of Defence documents and I'm going to show -- the majority
13 will be the Prosecutor's documents. But I don't think that the
14 Prosecution has the documents in Serbian; that's the problem. In their
15 binder, I guess, they have the English version of the documents.
16 MS. PIDWELL: We do have them in both languages but we only have
17 one copy of each, so if the witness is seeing them, I'm not seeing them
18 in a direct reference.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Pidwell, can't you see them on the screen?
21 MS. PIDWELL: I'm happy to follow them on the screen if they can
22 come up, but I see we're having a problem already with one that's not
23 coming up. But in my understanding it's only the witness who has a
24 problem with the screen and not everybody.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Pidwell, while we are waiting, does the
1 Prosecution have a response on what Trial Chamber asked yesterday about
2 the 12 translated documents?
3 MS. PIDWELL: No, but I can consult with my learned friends who
4 are listening and get back to you in the break.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MS. PIDWELL: Would it assist to give the witness the tab 58, the
7 number that -- the chart that you were -- wanted?
8 MR. ZECEVIC: We have it on the screen. Thank you very much.
9 Will it be possible for a witness to mark on the screen on this document?
10 Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE HALL: I'm advised that we can try.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, please.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, could you please mark for us the
14 stations. But when you go about marking them, please say loud and clear
15 which station you are marking. My question is: Mark the stations that
16 had a crime prevention unit.
17 A. Should I mark just those that did, in other words?
18 Q. Whichever way you like.
19 A. In that case, I'll leave unmarked those that didn't.
20 Q. You pick whichever.
21 A. I will pick those that did. I'll mark those that did.
22 Ilidza, Novo Sarajevo, Zvornik, Ilijas, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak,
23 Sokolac, Pale, Sekovici. Those are the ones that had the crime
24 prevention units. And the remaining stations, they only had one when
25 they were beginning to be set up, which is late in 1992.
1 Q. Is that the same case for the whole period, April to
2 September 1992, or even up until the end of 1992, when the service was
3 formed in other stations as well?
4 A. Well, in those other stations the crime prevention police began
5 its formation from the end of September onwards, depending on the
7 Q. Let us just clarify once again: What was the main reason for
8 this late establishment of services and departments for crime prevention
9 in those public security stations?
10 A. Firstly, the war. And then also there was manpower shortage. We
11 did not have enough people who could carry out the tasks and duties of
12 crime prevention inspectors.
13 Q. Thank you. On the second day of your examination, page 21578 --
14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, I would like to tender
15 this document.
16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 1D630. Thank
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, on page 21578, the topic was the timing of
21 the conflict at Vrace. You said:
22 It did not happen that night, it happened during the day on the
23 5th of April sometime in the afternoon, definitely afternoon. I was not
24 at Vrace but I'm sure that it happened during the day and not during the
1 "Q. ... right ... for whatever reason, Mr. Mihajlovic either put
2 the wrong date deliberately or made a mistake."
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's document 65 ter 20212, tab 62,
4 Prosecution document.
5 Q. It's a report on the work of public security station in
6 Novo Sarajevo from the 1st of April until the 25th of December, 1992. It
7 was drafted by Zoran Mihajlovic. In the first sentence we see:
8 "Novo Sarajevo SJB was formed on the 5th of April ..."
9 And you denied this. Ms. Korner then connected this to the
10 situation at Vrace and in the end stated what I've just read out to you.
11 Sir, take a look at the last page, who is the signatory of this
12 document, page 4?
13 A. It's signed by the chief of the public security station
14 Novo Sarajevo, Zoran Mihajlovic.
15 Q. How many chiefs of the public security station Novo Sarajevo
16 worked on that post from April until the moment Mr. Mihajlovic was
18 A. I'm not sure, I think two or three.
19 Q. In the document we looked at just now, we saw Milenko Jovanovic
20 and Milanko Tepavcevic listed as chiefs of the public security station in
21 Novo Sarajevo. Do you remember whether they were indeed on that post?
22 A. Yes, I think that after Tepavcevic, Mihajlovic was appointed.
23 Q. Do you remember at which point in time Zoran Mihajlovic was
24 appointed to chief of the public security station in Novo Sarajevo?
25 A. I don't know, towards the end of the year, the very end of the
2 Q. Do you know what happened to the previous two chiefs, Jovanovic
3 and Tepavcevic? Where were they transferred?
4 A. Jovanovic was seriously wounded at the school in Vrace, shot
5 through both legs, and then he went for rehabilitation. After Tepavcevic
6 left the post of chief, I believe he was transferred to the
7 National Security Service or state security.
8 Q. Where did Zoran Mihajlovic come from when he was appointed to the
9 public security station?
10 A. He spent some time in the public security station in the crime
11 prevention police. Then for about a month he was in the crime prevention
12 police with me in Security Services Centre. And then from the chief --
13 from the post of the chief of crime prevention, he came to the post of
14 the public security station, chief of the public security station.
15 Q. Do you remember the discussion about Sasa Blagojevic; and when
16 was Blagojevic in the Security Services Centre Sarajevo Romanija-Birac;
17 when he was not there, where he was; and such-like. You spoke about this
18 topic on two occasion with Ms. Korner.
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. Page 22258 --
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, now I want to show you P1892.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, before we leave the document that's
23 on the screen for the moment, can you give me the date of that document
24 or can I have page 1 of the document again.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe the date, Your Honours, is the
1 27th December, 1992. It's on the first page of the document.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You can go ahead.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Sir, this is an Official Note. Bijeljina, the
5 4th of August, 1992. It's a note on interviews which were conducted.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2.
7 Q. It's signed by the persons who drafted the note. Do you know any
8 of the names listed here?
9 A. Yes, I know all three of them.
10 Q. What are they, those three individuals?
11 A. They are the operatives. They are crime inspectors.
12 Q. The middle one, the name that we find in the middle, who is he?
13 A. It's Sasa Blagojevic, the one about whom we spoke.
14 Q. Let us go back to page 1. Did you learn anything about this? We
15 see here that the official interviews were conducted with the persons
16 listed here; they had been arrested in the area of Zvornik municipality
17 as members of paramilitary formations. Were you aware of that?
18 A. No, I did not receive this Official Note. This had to do with
19 the crime prevention administration. They were in charge of this. And
20 we also see that the interviews were conducted in Bijeljina.
21 Q. Crime prevention administration of which CSB?
22 A. Crime prevention administration of the RS MUP, so not Security
23 Services Centres but the headquarters of the MUP.
24 Q. Is that the same Sasa Blagojevic that we discussed before, the
25 one that worked in Security Services Centre in Sarajevo?
1 A. Yes. I said that he was in Zvornik at the time.
2 Q. The date is the 4th of August. Is that the time-period that you
3 refer to when you say that he was in Zvornik?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have P997. It's tab 23,
6 Defence document. Can we have the last page, please, it's page 2.
7 Q. This is a report dated the 27th of August. Who submitted this
9 A. Sasa Blagojevic, you can see it here.
10 Q. Is this the same individual that you mentioned before, the one
11 who worked in the Security Services Centre Sarajevo Romanija-Birac?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the first page.
14 Q. This document is dated the 27th of August and it's a report on
15 the visit to the Vlasenica SJB. Are you aware of this report?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was it sent to you or crime prevention police?
18 A. This report was made for the chief of the Security Services
19 Centre and I was made aware of it.
20 Q. Thank you. On page 22621, Ms. Korner spoke about the hours, the
21 total number of hours, spent on the investigation of the Golf vehicles,
22 and on page 22621 she said:
23 Are you going to agree with me, Mr. Tusevljak, that this
24 operation had "a priority between ... July and the end of November
25 in [sic] the Sarajevo CSB?"
1 And your answer was:
2 I'm not sure whether it had a priority or not, but if you look at
3 the number of inspectors, you can see how many inspectors we had. Two
4 white-collar crime inspectors worked on those matters.
5 Do you remember this exchange with Ms. Korner?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D328. It's Defence
8 document number 6. You can find it in your binder. It is Prosecution
9 tab 17.
10 Q. Sir, this is the report on the meeting of heads of departments
11 for criminality for the Romanija-Birac CSB. It details the meeting in
12 Sokolac held on the 27th of July, 1992. Can you confirm this?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You attended the meeting?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All the problems that you encountered in your work as well as the
17 priorities you had, did you discuss this? Did you discuss the problems
18 on this meeting?
19 A. Yes, that was the topic of the meeting, problems and ways of
20 overcoming them.
21 Q. Was there any discussion about the priorities of the CSB?
22 A. I believe so. I believe that some conclusions were drawn up at
23 the end.
24 Q. Look at page 4, the last a sentence in the first paragraph, these
25 are the words of Nikola Milanovic from the crime prevention
1 administration of the headquarters of the MUP. Do you remember whether
2 Nikola Milanovic spoke at that meeting?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember what he said on the meeting about the crimes
5 committed by Serbs against civilian population?
6 A. I cannot remember the details. It would be impossible. However,
7 based on the content of my report, we can see briefly summarised who
8 spoke about what.
9 Q. Were there any conclusions made at the meeting?
10 A. Yes. At the very end of the meeting, we drew up conclusions.
11 Q. Can we find those conclusions in this report?
12 A. Yes, at the end of the report.
13 Q. Look at the conclusions and tell me whether any of them pertain
14 to the priorities, and if so, what were the priorities in your work?
15 A. I can read it out if you want.
16 Q. No, that is not necessary. They are contained in the document.
17 I'm only interested in the conclusions relating to the priorities because
18 the original question by Ms. Korner pertained to this topic. The
19 document itself is in evidence; there is no reason to read it out loud.
20 A. One of the conclusions is that the communication should be
21 improved, informing should be approved, a courier service should be
22 established. Then we were supposed to receive requests for engagement of
23 new personnel and proposals which had to be approved by SJB heads.
24 Further on, we needed more forensic equipment because nobody had that.
25 So we also requested that the problem of the judiciary should be solved
1 because there were no judicial organs in the area of our centre. And at
2 the end it says: Maximum engagement of all operational workers is
3 requested for the tasks of documenting war crimes and submitting criminal
4 reports against known and unknown perpetrators. And in relation to that:
5 Maximum of the co-operation with the authorities in the areas where crime
6 prevention services are carrying out their tasks.
7 Q. So in the operative sense, what was the priority based on these
9 A. The operative priority was number 6, prevention of and
10 documenting of war crimes.
11 Q. Sir, does any of the conclusions mentioned here mention the
12 TAS factory and the thefts from that factory in Vogosca?
13 A. No, obviously not.
14 Q. Ms. Korner asked you about the property. Besides cars, were
15 there any other objects of value stored in the TAS factory in Vogosca?
16 A. The name of the factory was UNIS Pretis. It's 15 kilometres
17 long. 15.000 workers used to work there in a single shift. And then if
18 you just think about the value of all the cars stored within the factory
19 and you compare it with everything else that was within the perimeter of
20 the factory, machinery, thousands of motors providing the power for the
21 machinery, anything else you can imagine.
22 Q. Do you know who was the owner of this factory, TAS UNIS Pretis in
23 Vogosca, whatever the exact name was?
24 A. I don't know. I suppose the state. It was state-owned.
25 Q. Thank you. On page 22629, you were shown a document, P743,
1 Prosecution binder 6A. You remember Ms. Korner showing you this document
2 signed by Colonel Tomislav Sipcic, page 22629. You remember that, don't
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If you look at the header --
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] We can pull the document up a
7 little, please, so the witness can see.
8 Q. It reads "Romanija Corps," then the date. On the right-hand
9 side, "very urgent." Who is this document sent to or addressed to, this
11 A. The Main Staff of the Republika Srpska BiH, that is, our own
12 Main Staff.
13 Q. What about you at the Security Services Centre, did you ever
14 receive reports from the Romanija Corps?
15 A. No, never.
16 Q. Thank you. At page 22638 there was some discussion regarding the
17 situation at the Pale Public Security Station. You discussed problems
18 that were occurring there at the time as well as the fact that
19 Mr. Stjepan Micic spoke to you to complain about the situation that
20 prevailed at the time in the public security station. You do remember
21 that, sir, don't you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Is it your recollection that before new people came into the
24 leading positions, including the chief of the public security station, at
25 Pale another member, high-ranking member, who worked at the station had
1 been removed and charges had been brought against that person?
2 A. Yes, I know about that.
3 Q. Do you perhaps remember that person's name?
4 A. I believe his first name was Vlajko, and I can't remember his
5 last name.
6 Q. Perhaps you can remember when this happened. Was it in 1992?
7 And ultimately what was the whole thing about?
8 A. I think a commission was set up by the RS MUP that was after Pale
9 in 1992, including operatives from the Security Services Centre.
10 Q. Just a minute, please. And the brief of that commission was?
11 Was there a specific brief?
12 A. Yes, to establish any irregularities in the work of that
13 particular police station. Based on that, when they went into the legal
14 and administrative department, they established that there had been some
15 irregularities there. The chief of that section faced criminal charges
16 and all the other employees of that department were replaced or
18 Q. Thank you. Now that we're on the subject - 22640 is the page -
19 you were asked by Ms. Korner about members of the reserve police and
20 active-duty police officers being disciplined. Ms. Korner goes on to
22 "Mr. Tusevljak" -- just a minute, please. I'm going to try and
23 find the exact reference and I'll read in English.
24 [In English] "Now, I'm pointing out to you, Mr. Tusevljak, that
25 from a case that you personally were involved in which on the face of it
1 should have required disciplinary proceedings, shouldn't it?
2 "A. Yes, but it wasn't up to me to start that, to trigger that.
3 What I triggered was the start of investigation, but it wasn't up to me
4 to propose any disciplinary steps or start disciplinary proceedings ...
5 It was" --
6 And further down:
7 "It was the responsibility of the chief to take the final
8 decision on any steps to be taken."
9 [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.
12 Q. You do remember that answer, don't you?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Sir, in keeping with the regulations, did you have the authority
15 to initiate disciplinary proceedings, and if so, in relation to whom?
16 A. Yes, I had that power. I had the authority to initiate
17 disciplinary proceedings only vis-à-vis employees who worked in my
18 department within the Security Services Centre.
19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday at page 22655, or, rather, 22709, there was
20 mention there of some information shown to you by Ms. Korner, information
21 put together by Kenan Delic, an inspector from the Sarajevo airport. And
22 this was about the airport being taken by the JNA. This is 65 ter 20213,
23 Prosecution tab 64. Do you remember that document, sir?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
1 page 3, the final paragraph of page 3.
2 Q. Sir, you commented at 22709 and you told Ms. Korner, having
3 previously been asked whether you agreed that the JNA had taken the
4 airport on the 5th of April:
5 "Yes, but," you said; it says here that Kenan Delic's police were
6 also at the airport at the police station up until the 12th of April.
7 I don't think the answer that you provided was completely
8 recorded at the time, therefore I wish to ask you a couple of additional
9 questions in relation to this.
10 Sir, in your opinion, based on Mr. Kenan Delic's report, when was
11 it that the JNA took the airport in Sarajevo?
12 A. This shows that members of the JNA arrived at the airport on the
13 6th of April. Nevertheless, within the airport itself there was the
14 police station providing security. This shows clearly that the airport
15 police station kept on operating until the 12th of April, 1992. It also
16 shows Mr. Delic as saying that most of the police station's employees
17 were operating in the area. So in practical terms, the JNA established
18 control over the airport no sooner than the 12th of April, at least
19 complete control.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. At page 22663 of yesterday's LiveNote, two
21 persons bearing the same last name, Vlaco, were discussed. Do you
22 remember that, don't you?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. We spent quite some time dealing with that. I'll just ask you
25 two questions on this. What about Branko and Branislav; are these two
1 names that are different names in the Serbian language? Are these two
2 different names?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What would be a usual nickname for persons called either one of
5 these two names?
6 A. Brane. That would be a perfectly ordinary and usual common
8 Q. Thank you. Sir, you were shown yesterday a number of documents.
9 P2369, which is the Vogosca -- Serb municipality of Vogosca bulletin,
10 detention unit, Prosecution tab 28B. You remember being shown this
11 document, sir, don't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Let me ask you this - I believe I asked you this already in
14 chief, but just to be perfectly sure: Did you at the Security Services
15 Centre ever receive bulletins such as this from the prison administration
16 in Vogosca?
17 A. No.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move on to the next
19 document, please, P2368.
20 Q. This bulletin is dated the 26th of July, 1992. Prison warden
21 Branko Vlaco, and there is a list there. Sir, are you familiar with
22 Mr. Branko Vlaco's signature?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
1 P2364, Prosecution tab 59.
2 Q. Another document you were shown.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the Serbian, please.
4 The original.
5 Q. This is the CV of Branislav Vlaco, something else you were shown
6 by Ms. Korner. This document is signed by the person in question. Do
7 you recognise this signature, the signature of Branislav Vlaco?
8 A. No, I'm not familiar with that signature either.
9 Q. Thank you. As an experienced operative, and I know you are no
10 expert in the field, but in your opinion what about these two signatures
11 that we've just looked at, are the two different?
12 A. Back at university I took a course in graphology and handwriting
13 analysis; that was part of the forensic subject that we were taught.
14 Q. Would you like us to have the two documents side by side on your
16 A. That would be nice, if possible. Thank you.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the two
18 displayed side by side. P2368 on the right-hand side, we would like to
19 see the original, tab 6A; we'd like to keep the Serbian and P2368 instead
20 of English.
21 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honour, I wonder whether this is really
22 appropriate. The witness is not a handwriting expert. He is not
23 proffered as such.
24 JUDGE HALL: I was just going to ask Mr. Zecevic to pause so the
25 Chamber can consult on the propriety of that question.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL: No, Mr. Zecevic, the Chamber is of the view that the
3 question that you were attempting to put would not be -- is not a
4 question that could be properly put to this witness.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, with all due respect, my
6 question was:
7 "As an experienced operative, and I know you are no expert in the
8 field, but in your opinion what about these two signatures that we have
9 just looked at, are the two different?"
10 And then the witness offered that he took a course in graphology
11 and handwriting analysis and that is why I put both documents on the
12 screen. But if Your Honours believe that --
13 JUDGE HALL: And the -- [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.
15 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. The difficulty is in your -- a part of your
16 question was: Although you are not an expert, in your opinion ... which
17 is the problem.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. Anyhow, it's obvious.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak --
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D106.
21 That is tab 1, Defence tab 1.
22 Q. Sir, the date is the 12th of July, 1992. This is a report by
23 operatives of the Romanija-Birac CSB from Vogosca. They toured Vogosca
24 on the 3rd of July, 1992. We've looked at this report already. Do you
25 remember that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Do you also remember that the Security Services Centre was
3 informed in this report and that the operatives established that there is
4 no such thing as the crime service in -- or crime unit in Vogosca; they
5 advised that one be established as soon as possible?
6 A. Yes, I do remember that that was the case.
7 Q. Could you please go to page 2 of the document. At the end there
8 is a list, a proposal was made and specific names proposed towards the
9 bottom of that page. It says: We agree that a crime unit should be
10 established and should comprise Brano Vlaco as a chief of the service, an
11 employee of the station up to now and of the Security Services Centre in
13 We've heard everything that we have heard so far. Can you please
14 tell me which Brane Vlaco is this a reference to? Is this about
15 Branislav Vlaco or Branko Vlaco?
16 A. This is a reference to Branislav Vlaco.
17 Q. You are concluding this based on what exactly?
18 A. Branislav Vlaco was an employee of the crime unit of the
19 Sarajevo Security Services Centre, a white-collar crime inspector in that
21 Q. When you say Sarajevo, do you mean before the clashes erupted in
23 A. Yes, I mean the period preceding the clashes in 1992.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have another topic
1 to cover, a mere handful of documents, but I think this would be a
2 convenient time for our break.
3 JUDGE HALL: So we resume in 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Pidwell, is the Prosecutor able to respond or
8 give an answer to the question we put to you yesterday -- put to
9 Ms. Korner yesterday?
10 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, Your Honour. In respect to the 12 documents
11 which are remaining, we have received translations and reviewed them. I
12 note that the documents were actually sought to be used with the witness
13 who's currently on the stand and so it's a little bit problematic now
14 that he's in re-examination. However, given we've reviewed them and in
15 light of the comments that Your Honours made in your ruling about the
16 other documents, we really take no position on these documents. We fail
17 to see the relevance of at least half of them because they are outside of
18 the indictment municipalities, but they are within the temporal
19 time-frame of the indictment and we'll take our objection to their
20 relevance as and when they're sought to be actually tendered by the
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. So then we will add them --
23 we will allow Mr. Zecevic to add them to the 65 ter list. Thank you very
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, I received a suggestion from my colleagues. In
4 order to round up your testimony, we again have 1D360 on our screens.
5 It's the document that you marked at the very beginning of the session
6 today relating to public security stations in which during 1992 there was
7 a crime prevention administration. Sir, we are interested in the period
8 between April and July, or perhaps end of summer, August, 1992. We can
9 see from this document that nine stations had the crime prevention
10 administration formed by the end of 1992. Would you be able to tell us
11 or to write down on this document next to each of the marked stations how
12 many operatives worked in each of them who were in charge of crime
13 prevention in the aforementioned period? But first of all, could you
14 repeat: How many people did you have directly under you in the Security
15 Services Centre?
16 A. Until July or August I had two and then four and then in November
17 or December a slightly larger number of employees. You can see the exact
18 numbers from the payrolls.
19 I can now attempt to quote the numbers of the personnel in each
20 police station.
21 Q. Approximately.
22 A. Precisely. I can only give you an approximation because it's
23 impossible for me to remember the exact numbers now.
24 I believe that in Ilidza there were six operatives. In
25 Novo Sarajevo, four. I am also including forensic technicians in these
1 numbers. Then in Hadzici I think that until the end of the year there
2 was only one or maybe even none.
3 Q. Only mention those that had crime prevention service. And could
4 you be so kind to only quote the number of the operatives, of inspectors.
5 We are not interested in forensic technicians.
6 A. Well, then, here, instead of six I have to write five; and here,
7 instead of four I have to write three.
8 Q. Then cross out six and four, please.
9 A. As for Zvornik, I don't know.
10 Q. Wait a minute, maybe it's better to erase this and then you can
11 write the numbers again. So I'm only interested in the number of
12 operatives, inspectors.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So five and three. I don't know
15 for Zvornik. It wasn't our situation before 1992 so I can't remember.
16 Ilijas, two.
17 JUDGE HALL: Shouldn't we, in respect of Zvornik, so that we
18 don't confuse ourselves when we look back at this, put a question mark,
19 having regard to his answer?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Will you put a question mark on Zvornik.
22 A. Vlasenica I also don't know. Han Pijesak, one. Sokolac, one
23 operative. Pale, three, I believe. And Sekovici, two.
24 Q. You said that you didn't know for Vlasenica. Could you put a
25 question mark there.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the exhibit number for
5 JUDGE HALL: So apparently it has to have a new marking, so ...
6 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 1D631, Your Honours.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I hope we didn't lost it. [Interpretation] Thank
9 Q. Sir, just one more thing before we move on to the last topic.
10 On page 22466 of the transcript you were asked by Ms. Korner
11 something about the document that you gave to the Stanisic Defence. She
12 asked whether you gave them any documents before 2007; you said: No, as
13 far as I know it was only after we started receiving formal requests.
14 And then after this I showed you one such request and one
15 document that you sent accompanied with the list of documents. Do you
16 remember that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Just for the transcript, and perhaps for some future use, did you
19 act upon our requests in some other cases and send us documents?
20 A. Whenever you contact the secretariat for relations with
21 The Hague Tribunal, and I mean the secretariat within the government of
22 the RS, and they forward your request to us, or in cases you contacted
23 directly the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, according to the
24 law in co-operation with The Hague Tribunal of Republika Srpska all
25 available documents are then sent to you.
1 Q. Do you perhaps remember how many times you did that?
2 A. No, I really wouldn't know.
3 Q. Thank you. But do you remember that it happened more than once?
4 A. Surely more than once.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Now, the last topic. Document P160, tab 153 in the Defence
7 binder. 153. It's a report about the meeting of the first collegium of
8 the MUP of Republika Srpska held on the 1st of July. Ms. Korner asked
9 you about this on page 22705. She quoted your own words from page --
10 A. -- 18, I remember.
11 Q. Yes, but in e-court it's page 21 in Serbian.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the same page in
13 English; I believe it's one page before this one. It could be page 18 in
14 English. 18.
15 Q. Right, this is where you begin. Ms. Korner read out the last
16 sentence in this paragraph, saying that at that meeting you said -- she
17 was speaking to you, saying: You said that in Vlasenica out of
18 73 criminal reports, 23 were filed against Serbs. However, Ms. Korner,
19 and I fully understand her, omitted to read the previous sentence.
20 Could you read your words as they were recorded in this report,
21 so that's one sentence before the last.
22 A. "Tusevljak spoke about the lack of personnel engaged in criminal
23 investigations at the Sarajevo Security Services Centre" --
24 Q. No, I'm sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough. The last sentence
25 in this paragraph begins with words "for example." I'm interested in the
1 sentence immediately before this one. And you don't have to read it out
2 loud. This is evidence.
3 A. "Criminal reports are filed against everybody."
4 Q. What did you have in mind when you said criminal reports are
5 filed against everybody?
6 A. I was referring to the fact that the ethnicity of the perpetrator
7 of criminal offence was irrelevant for us. We filed criminal reports
8 against everybody who committed a criminal offence.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 26 in e-court in
11 Serbian and 23, I believe, in English.
12 Q. I'm interested in one of the conclusions. You were shown this
13 conclusion by Ms. Korner. It's conclusion 6 relating to prevention and
14 documenting of war crimes. However, she omitted, again, to show you
15 conclusion 7.
16 Could you comment on conclusion 7.
17 A. Should I read it out?
18 Q. There is no need for that. Just comment on it. What is it
19 about? What kind of criminal offences are meant? When it says "serious
20 crimes of endangering life," what is it about?
21 A. Well, this is about discovery of serious crimes such as looting,
22 war profiteering, serious crimes against life and limb, and other
23 criminal offences irrespective of who the perpetrators are.
24 Q. [Microphone not activated]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just a short comment on the following: Serious crimes of
4 endangering life, what exactly is this? What kind of criminal offences
5 are we talking about here?
6 A. Aggravated murders.
7 Q. Thank you. Sir, in conclusion 6 --
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] In English it's on the previous
10 Q. -- we find the following:
11 "Preventing and documenting war crimes and using all legally
12 prescribed resources and methods for documenting such enemy activity ..."
13 Ms. Korner read out this part. And then on page 22706, you
15 When you take a look at my discussion, you will see that I spoke
16 about the crimes committed by Serbs. This conclusion relates only to the
17 enemy activity in that sense, but nothing is specified about the enemy.
18 What exactly does that word mean, who is it? There are some reports
19 filed against known and unknown perpetrators.
20 By that you mean to say that you had in your files reports filed
21 against known and unknown perpetrators.
22 And then Ms. Korner asked you:
23 The Serbs in Bosnia and Republika Srpska considered their enemies
24 those that you call Green Berets, HOS, Patriotic League, you considered
25 them enemies?
1 And you answered yes, "They were the enemy."
2 Sir, could you explain whether in the Serbian language the word
3 "enemy," in it's second declension, is it the same in plural and
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So when we find, as we find here, "enemy" as in "neprijatelje,"
7 is it possible to deduct from this whether it is plural or singular?
8 A. It could be both.
9 Q. [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Generally speaking, whom did the Ministry of the Interior
13 consider enemy?
14 A. Perpetrators of criminal offences.
15 Q. So we have the Green Berets here, the HOS, the Patriotic League,
16 all these paramilitary organisations, in your opinion would this same
17 group include some paramilitary units like the Yellow Wasps or groups
18 like that?
19 A. Yes, the group would include those two as our enemies during the
21 Q. Thank you. Sir, I will now show you 1D063, tab 290. You
22 answered a question by Ms. Korner, also at 22706, saying that other
23 instructions and orders had arrived from the Ministry of the Interior
24 regarding war crimes. This is at page 22695.
25 Just to make sure this is complete, the date on the document is
1 the 19th of July. It is a document produced by the Ministry of Interior,
2 signed by Mr. Stanisic, delivered to all Security Services Centres
3 including the one in Sarajevo. Could you please read slowly paragraph 1
4 and paragraph 2 of these guide-lines or instructions being delivered to
5 these addressees.
6 A. "Proceeding in accordance with the conclusions adopted at the
7 meeting of senior personnel on the 11th of July, 1992, whereby the tasks
8 related to the discovery of documentation of war crimes or genocide and
9 the submission of criminal reports, as well as in accordance with other
10 enactments, (number strictly confidential 01-2/92 of the
11 16th of May, 1992) and orders were numbered among the priorities of the
12 National Security Service and the crime prevention service, a
13 questionnaire on war crimes and victims of genocide has been compiled in
14 the information analysis administration.
15 "A questionnaire will be completed at Security Services Centres
16 for all persons regardless of ethnicity (Muslims, Croats, Serbs, and
17 others) against whom criminal reports have been submitted on reasonable
18 grounds for suspicion that they have committed the given crimes, as well
19 as questionnaires for victims regardless of whether a criminal report has
20 been submitted or the procedure of gathering evidence for the submission
21 of a criminal report against the perpetrators is still in progress."
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 3.
24 Q. Sir, this is the RZ form in relation to victims of war crimes.
25 You see that, don't you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you please comment on item 5 and item 6, or, rather,
3 question 5 and question 6 of this form.
4 A. Number 5 is the victim's ethnicity. Number 6 is the victim's
6 Q. Sir, if Ms. Korner were right, if the position and the policy of
7 the Ministry of the Interior had been to document war crimes but only
8 those committed against Serbs, would there have been any need for a form
9 like this to include this type of information?
10 A. No. There would have been no need at all.
11 Q. Sir, we talked in chief about the reasons that criminal offences
12 committed in territory not under the control of the Ministry of the
13 Interior of the RS were documented. You remember that, don't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you please remind us of that reason; why were you looking
16 into that?
17 A. We would get contacted by citizens leaving the area. On their
18 way out they would report those criminal offences to the local police
19 stations and they would provide statements.
20 Q. Did you document those statements and did you follow the
21 statements up with specific criminal reports based on such documentation
22 as you were able to obtain?
23 A. Yes. Based on this, we would forward reports to the competent
25 Q. Let us look at a number of criminal reports that you were shown
1 yesterday by Ms. Korner.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P2372.
3 Q. Sir, this is document that you were shown by Ms. Korner
4 yesterday. It's a criminal report addressed to the high prosecutor in
5 Sarajevo temporarily --
6 A. I believe this was in closed session.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have the tab number, Mr. Zecevic.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: It's tab number 5 of the Prosecutor's binder. I'm
10 JUDGE HALL: So we move into closed session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 22775-22779 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. The documents gathered in 1992, are they used in criminal
16 proceedings in all these cases?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 Mr. Tusevljak, Ms. Korner showed you a report for the period the
20 2nd of September, 1992, dated October 1992, and it's a report on -- or,
21 rather, it's a report on the Sarajevo Romanija-Birac CSB. It's P793 and
22 P2375. It's your own administration's report.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have P2375. It's
24 Prosecution tab 35.
25 Q. I would like you to comment on it.
1 On page 22716, Ms. Korner quoted from this document and from the
2 other one, the other report, and she said:
3 Documenting of criminal offences against Serbs is a specific
4 issue. This sector is undertaking great efforts to adequately document
5 those criminal offences despite great difficulties.
6 What great difficulties are you referring to here?
7 A. Well, it was impossible to go into the field. We did not have
8 evidence collected on site. We did not have medical documentation. As
9 I've already stated, often when the VRS would be involved in a body
10 exchange, very often we were not present. We were not even aware of the
11 exchanges. And at the same time we had a constant lack of professional
12 adequately-trained personnel, because nobody, beginning with me, no
13 member of the crime prevention police had ever encountered this kind of
14 criminal offences in their careers up to date. At that moment we
15 practically knew nothing about it, how to document them, what to do about
16 them, what procedure to follow. That was our greatest problem.
17 Q. Did you undertake any measures in relation to this? Did the
18 Ministry of the Interior undertake any measures in relation to this, such
19 as instructive dispatches, guide-lines, and the like?
20 A. We used to receive dispatches from the Ministry of the Interior.
21 We, from the crime prevention police department, also attempted to draw
22 up a sort of a brochure. It was a dispatch with instructions on how
23 crime prevention police should act and what the operative should do. The
24 most experienced forensic technician did the same thing and he also
25 dispatched an instruction on the forensic procedures to be followed in
1 the field.
2 I also believe that towards the end of the year we organised a
3 training for forensic technicians in the RS MUP. The goal of all these
4 measures was to improve the work of the crime prevention police. Among
5 other things, we didn't have properly trained forensic technicians, that
6 is, people who could go on site and document the event using appropriate
8 Q. Thank you. At the very end of her cross-examination - and this
9 is going to be my last question as well, my last topic, to be more
10 precise - Ms. Korner spoke about the annual report of the Ministry of the
11 Interior. It's P625. It relates to the period between April and
12 December 1992. It is dated January 1993. It's Prosecution tab pre-1B.
13 Do you remember that you spoke with Ms. Korner about this
14 document? She quoted some passages from this document. Do you remember
16 A. Well, I was given this report to read it in my hotel room, and I
17 read it from the first to the last page.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
19 page, I believe it's 17 in Serbian. The number in the lower right-hand
20 corner should be 13 -- or, rather -- well, actually, yes, 13.
21 Q. This is the section devoted to the Public Security Service.
22 Under A we see the heading "Prevention and Discovery of Crime."
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's at page 12 in English.
24 Q. Sir, could you please read the last sentence and then we are
25 going to turn the page.
1 A. "It should also be emphasised that among the perpetrators there
2 is a certain number of uniformed persons" --
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn the page.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- "who are mainly members of
5 paramilitary formations, but also army reservists."
6 And then there is a remark saying: "Criminal offences committed
7 by the members of the VRS would normally be referred by the organs of the
8 military police."
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. No need to read the footnotes.
11 A. "And police reservists, while some of the criminals used
12 camouflage uniforms and even the insignia of the Army of Republika Srpska
13 and the police."
14 Q. No, no. Do you also know or do you have any information about
15 similar occurrences?
16 A. Yes. Very often perpetrators of criminal offences put on the VRS
17 uniform or police uniforms and then proceeded to commit criminal
19 Q. On the following page, Ms. Korner read the last paragraph, where
20 it says that the most grave forms of crimes that have occurred lately --
21 [Microphone not activated]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we also have it in English. I
24 would like to be able to follow. It should be -- yes, the third
25 paragraph. The third paragraph in English; this is what I'm quoting
2 Q. So: "The most severe forms of crime which appeared in this war
3 period for brutality, ruthlessness, and other elements comprising are the
4 crimes against humanity and international law. The number of these
5 crimes is surely much greater, and the collection of documents is a
6 difficult and long-term work. We have registered 101 crimes against
7 humanity and international law."
8 Mr. Tusevljak, you worked on crime prevention and detection. Do
9 you agree with the contents of this paragraph of this report?
10 A. Yes, entirely.
11 Q. Further on, on the page marked with a number 17 which means --
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, I'm not sure which page
13 of the Serbian version are we looking at now. Thank you. Can we have
14 the same in English, please. It should be page 15 in English, towards
15 the bottom.
16 Q. Ms. Korner read out the claim that the focus of the operative
17 work in the CSB was concentrated on members of the enemy forces who
18 committed crimes and so on and so forth.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in page marked with
20 a number 19 which in English could be page 17. So it's 19 in Serbian,
21 17 in English.
22 Q. I would like you to comment on it. First, could you please read
23 the second paragraph beginning with the words "during this period."
24 A. "In this period, 7.807 criminal reports were filed in the area of
25 general crime" --
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, it's page 16 in English,
2 the fourth paragraph.
3 Q. Go on. Excuse me for interrupting you.
4 A. "In this period, 7.807 criminal reports were filed for common
5 crime. The results are relatively satisfactory, especially if we bear in
6 mind the circumstances in which the crimes were perpetrated" --
7 Q. Just one comment before we go on the break: We find a number of
8 7.807 criminal reports, do you remember the number of the criminal
9 reports for war crimes and breaches of international law?
10 A. In this report, 101.
11 Q. Does this represent a comparatively smaller percentage or - how
12 should I put it? - significantly lesser percentage in relation to the
13 total number of criminal reports filed in the period?
14 A. Yes, you can see it from the number of the criminal reports filed
15 for common crime and for war crimes.
16 Q. Sir, Mr. Tusevljak, if some tasks have priority in the MUP, what
17 are the hallmarks of the results of this priority work?
18 A. The main characteristics is the number of the cases solved.
19 That's the only one.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I see the time, Your Honours. I
22 have perhaps less than ten minutes, but I also have to inform the
23 Trial Chamber about a certain matter, that is why I propose that we go on
24 the break now.
25 JUDGE HALL: Very well.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, in this report, this annual
8 report, we see on the one hand that the police had the priority to
9 process war crimes. On the other hand, we see the actual number of
10 criminal reports that were filed. Tell me, what is your opinion, why are
11 the numbers as they are?
12 A. I think, first of all, that these are reports that are filed on
13 daily basis by citizens. I think that the public security from
14 Banja Luka has filed the greatest number of reports that were originally
15 instituted by individual citizens.
16 Q. No, you didn't understand me. I'm talking here about the war
17 crimes report. You just told us that 101 criminal reports were filed for
18 war crimes. On the other hand we see in this report that war crimes had
19 the priority. So how can you explain this? What is the reason? How
20 come that something that has been given high priority resulted in a
21 comparatively small number of criminal reports?
22 A. Well, the reason for that is the small number of operatives
23 working in the field who were able to deal with war crimes; that's number
24 one. Number two, very often the police were simply unable to act on the
1 Q. When you say "unable to act," are you referring to some objective
2 reasons or some other reasons?
3 A. War resulted in the fact that the police was unable to reach the
4 places where war crimes were committed.
5 Q. The 101 criminal report for war crimes, what does it pertain to?
6 Who were the victims in the 101 criminal reports?
7 A. I believe all three ethnicities.
8 Q. Thank you. And finally, could you read the last paragraph on
9 this page. This is the conclusion given by the Ministry of the Interior
10 in relation to the issue of war crimes. Read it and then I'm going to
11 ask you a question.
12 A. "Despite --
13 Q. Excuse me.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the English version
15 back on the screen. Yes. It begins on this page and then goes on to the
16 following. It's the last paragraph, the last sentence on this page. And
17 then the paragraph continues on the next page.
18 Q. Go on, Mr. Tusevljak.
19 A. "In spite of taking and initiating various measures, the
20 documentation of crimes against humanity and international law is not
21 satisfactory. In the MUP, apart from daily instructions and providing
22 direct help to the Security Services Centres and public security
23 stations, decisions by the expert collegium of ministers, issuance of
24 wanted circulars for war criminals (one a day on average) and the like, a
25 special meeting was held with the leaders regarding these issues and
1 detailed questionnaires drawn up to collect data on war criminals and
2 victims of crimes. Co-operation was established with some of the media
3 in order to exchange data and documents, et cetera."
4 Q. Thank you. Tell me, do you agree with this position of the
5 Ministry of the Interior as it is stated in this report? Do you know
6 anything about such measures being undertaken at the time?
7 A. Yes, I agree with this position, and I am aware of the measures
8 that were undertaken.
9 Q. Sir, Ms. Korner, at the very end of yesterday's examination on
10 page 22737, stated the following - I'll say it in English:
11 [In English] "Mr. Tusevljak, let's final this, because I ought to
12 make it clear to you: I'm suggesting that it's quite clear -- and I'm
13 not suggesting this is what you wanted to happen, but it's quite clear
14 that your clear instructions from your bosses from, I suggest, the
15 minister downwards was to investigate war crimes against Serbs and
16 effectively not to bother with the war crimes that were committed against
17 the non-Serbs? And that's the reality, isn't it?"
18 And your answer:
19 "No. Investigations were conducted in other cases of crimes, not
20 only when it's Serbs?"
21 [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, did you have any sort of
22 instructions from your superiors in the Ministry of the Interior,
23 including anybody from the headquarters of the Ministry of the Interior,
24 including the minister, to investigate only war crimes against Serbs and
25 not to deal with the war crimes committed against non-Serbs?
1 A. No, I never received such instructions from anybody in the
2 Ministry of the Interior.
3 Q. Mr. Tusevljak, if such instructions had been issued in 1992,
4 would it have been in accordance with the Law on the Interior?
5 A. No, such an instruction would not be in accordance with the law.
6 Q. Bearing this in mind, if members of the Ministry of the Interior
7 had received such an instruction, would they be duty-bound to act upon
9 A. No. The instructions, contrary to the Law on the Interior, are
10 not the instructions that are binding for the members of the Ministry of
11 the Interior.
12 Q. And finally, Mr. Tusevljak, had you received such an instruction,
13 would you have acted upon it?
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more
17 questions for this witness.
18 I would just like to remind the Chamber: On page 22456, during
19 examination-in-chief of this witness, I proposed to de-MFI 1D214 to
20 1D232. 232. Ms. Korner at the time requested that the decision by the
21 Trial Chamber should be postponed until the end of her cross-examination.
22 The cross-examination is finished and I believe that the documents in
23 question were not even mentioned, or at least not in the sense which
24 would present an obstacle for them to be de-MFI'd. Therefore, I propose
25 that the documents 1D214 to 1D232 should be admitted into evidence
1 without being merely marked for identification.
2 JUDGE HALL: Could you, on a thumbnail, remind me as to what
3 these documents were, please, Mr. Zecevic.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, those are the expert autopsy reports
5 from the CSB Banja Luka which were shown to the witness Tusevljak --
6 Tutus during his cross-examination in, well, a year ago. And the
7 problem, Your Honour, was that the objection at that point was the
8 authenticity of the documents. And if you remember, I have shown the
9 document -- the receipt of the documents which we received from the --
10 from the witness here and the RS MUP, and he confirmed that all these
11 documents, which I had shown to him, are the documents which we received
12 from the RS MUP. And therefore the issue of authenticity, in our
13 opinion, does not exist anymore. Yes.
14 MS. PIDWELL: I don't have Ms. Korner's specific instructions on
15 this, but I seem to recall the issue was more of the fact that they were
16 forensic documents and they couldn't -- there was no nexus between either
17 Mr. Tutus or this witness for them to be admitted and that authenticity
18 wasn't the one and only hurdle in the way of their admission.
19 JUDGE HALL: But inasmuch as Mr. Zecevic has said, the --
20 Ms. Korner's most recent application was to defer the decision until
21 after her cross-examination had been completed, and she didn't touch it.
22 It appears that it has ceased to be a matter of concern for the
23 Prosecution, notwithstanding -- and I'm not ignoring what you just said,
24 Ms. Pidwell, so for purely practical purposes, for the reasons that
25 Mr. Zecevic gave in response to my question as to what this witness has
1 said about them, it seems that that is the course we should follow.
2 So the MFI qualification on these documents would be removed and
3 they would be entered as full exhibits.
4 Mr. Tusevljak, your examination is now at an end. You are now
5 released as a witness. You are free to go, and we wish you a safe
6 journey back to your home. We thank you for coming to assist
7 the Tribunal and giving evidence.
8 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE HALL: So as would have happened over the past few days, we
10 have some procedural matters we wish to deal. We wouldn't be rising
11 immediately, so the usher will escort you from the courtroom. Thank you,
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE HALL: I suppose we have to go into private session.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 22792-22793 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL: And I suppose there's a way of my -- of
18 Mr. Krgovic's confirmation that -- not Krgovic's confirmation. Well, I
19 will repeat the order of the Chamber, the direction of the Chamber, that
20 the previous direction to Mr. Krgovic that the Zupljanin Defence begin on
21 the 11th of July is rescinded and we will now take the adjournment, in
22 the current case, to Monday, the 4th of July. Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.03 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day
25 of July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.